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Achieve Internet Marketing Success. Shazam.

by GordonJ
70 replies
The mind forum:

Mind Warriors is a forum dedicated to self improvement and empowering minds to make more money online. You will find inspiring posts that motivate you to take action and achieve more.

In the Warrior Forum Mind Warriors forum, you will be motivated, inspired and empowered to achieve Internet Marketing success.

So are you?

Motivated?
Inspired?
Empowered? And achieving more?

ARE you making more money online?

Well, great if you are. But I doubt if the Mind Forum had much to do with your taking action and achieving success, did it?

Empowerment bothers me. As does agency.

Who does the giving? Who have you granted the right to empower you? Why do you not have full agency over your being?

It has always been a controversy when I say, if you need to be motivated and inspired to achieve success, maybe you've chosen the wrong thing to be doing.

Sure, knowledge can overcome ignorance, as it should. Blueprints, plans and even formulas can be followed, but not exactly duplicated, or we would all just use the million dollar cookie-cutter process.

And some of you, shouldn't be here. At the Warrior Forum where the emphasis is making money online. But it sure sounds good doesn't it?

And there are many, many ways to go about it, there isn't a one size fits all, off-the-rack solution for all of us.

But I question the need for Empowerment, motivation, inspiration, where does that need come from?

There is a saying in buying and selling, and it is: you make your profit on the BUY. Because if you buy right, then the sell is going to insure your profit.

As for Internet Marketing, and online money making, I argue your profit is made on your decision on which of the many methods you choose.

And you don't need to be empowered in any way, shape or form to make an informed decision on what suits you best, or do you?

If it is all about mindset, then we have done a terrible job here at WF for a couple of decades, some Warriors having been getting their minds right for years and years and are still no where close to achieving the intent of the mind forum, so what is the problem?

Maybe lack of motivation, inspiration, empowerment? If so, I call BS. That's all.

GordonJ
#achieve #internet #marketing #shazam #success
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    Banned
    Interesting observation GordonJ.

    Ya ― I think that when People are doing what's important to them ― and what they're "passionate" about ― well it makes a massive difference and they don't really need extra "motivation" (etc.). (My apologies if I've mentioned that before, it just that I think it's really important ...)

    That said, I do don't necessarily see anything wrong with "inspiriting posts"/motivation (etc.) ... And they do have their place.

    [Added=] Personally I read a lot of Personal Development books and in a sense I do find a lot of the information/advice/etc. somewhat "motivating" and "empowering" ... Again I don't see anything wrong with that, providing that People don't "rely" on it.
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      There is nothing wrong with a place for inspiration, motivation even. It is, however, hard to take here at WF, when we've seen the same inspiring pablam posted for a decade by the same people, and the Warrior is still in need of it.

      And, it goes without saying, that when people do what is important to them, they don't need extra motivation...

      thanks for saying it anyway.
      .
      GordonJ





      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      Interesting observation GordonJ.

      Ya ― I think that when People are doing what's important to them ― and what they're "passionate" about ― well it makes a massive difference and they don't really need extra "motivation" (etc.). (My apologies if I've mentioned that before, it just that I think it's really important ...)

      That said, I do don't necessarily see anything wrong with "inspiriting posts"/motivation (etc.) ... And they do have their place.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        It also goes without saying that what is important for people is not always what is good for them and that, sometimes, people have more than one thing that's important to them and some of them are in conflict and some are ordered in importance in a way that's not all that useful.


        In the second case, people end up producing a lot of waste, for sure.


        As in, important things are: the rush from gambling and keeping a roof over your family's head.


        Confused people say no, a marketing guru once wrote, so they do not buy.


        Confused people chase lots of things, he could have said too.


        And, he could have said, conflicted people buy, but it's hard to guess what.


        I think a lot of the people who've been here for a long time without producing the results they want are


        not that interested in producing the results (but it makes them look good to themselves or someone important to them to be here, "trying;"


        interested but conflicted (the most important thing to them is to hit the motherload and, thus, prove to their significant other's parents that they're not the loser all their in-laws think, being one variant... So, they do not accept the small, consistent victories that lead to one big one... but keep jumping around, trying to bypass the in-between victories for that one big one);


        dreamers looking for hobby or for whom participating in this forum is a hobby, or a community that makes them feel good... And, wouldn't it be lovely if, on top of that, with not a lot of effort, of course, it ended up making them money too? Of course, if it does not, it still beats going to the corner bar, throwing some darts and spending money on beer and shots while having to listen to that dunderhead of Larry droning on and on about that fish he caught back in 2004 at Devil's Lake in 2004!







        Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

        There is nothing wrong with a place for inspiration, motivation even. It is, however, hard to take here at WF, when we've seen the same inspiring pablam posted for a decade by the same people, and the Warrior is still in need of it.

        And, it goes without saying, that when people do what is important to them, they don't need extra motivation...

        thanks for saying it anyway.
        .
        GordonJ
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          It also goes without saying that what is important for people is not always what is good for them and that, sometimes, people have more than one thing that's important to them and some of them are in conflict and some are ordered in importance in a way that's not all that useful.
          Sure. Great point. : ) However when People are truly motivated it almost always means they're doing what's important to them. That was my point.
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          • Profile picture of the author DABK
            I understood your point. I think 'almost always' is a bit strong, at least for the people on this forum, or else, there would be a lot fewer posts about that are a variation of this; I've been trying to make money online for 5 years and, so far, I've made a grand total of $500.


            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            Sure. Great point. : ) However when People are truly motivated it almost always means they're doing what's important to them. That was my point.
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          • Profile picture of the author Odahh
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
              In her book; MINDSET The New Psychology of Success, Dweck discusses the differences between a FIXED mindset and a GROWTH mindset.

              She wrote: In a fixed mindset students believe their basic abilities, their intelligence, their talents, are just fixed traits. They have a certain amount and that's that, and then their goal becomes to look smart all the time and never look dumb. In a growth mindset students understand that their talents and abilities can be developed through effort, good teaching and persistence. They don't necessarily think everyone's the same or anyone can be Einstein, but they believe everyone can get smarter if they work at it.


              And I think you are right. Mostly. You mention HABIT, and it may be more important than mindset for those of a FIXED mindset, developing auto habits of work, having goals by the hour, so to speak, so they can feel their movement is successful.

              Habits are good ways for certain types to aid productivity, especially when doing less than fun WORK stuff...and making money doesn't require passion, it does require activity and that can be boring mundane daily routine which accumulates with time.

              Now Dweck is not without criticism, her experiments have been hard to duplicate, and there are those who feel she falls under the umbrella of self-help GURU as opposed to a practical psychologist with useful tools for the classroom.

              I believe any Warrior can develop practical, money making habits, and have them in place and working in half a year, and from there, along with a good start with a good fit to personality, and some market research...that is, finding the market first...that ANY Warrior can achieve a base income of at least 5k a month, in far less than five years.

              We can see evidence right here at WF, that sometimes the GRIND (fixed mindset) can outperform the growth mindset, not by constant motivation/inspiration, but through daily habits of doing the work necessary.

              It probably raises a few questions, like how to develop a habit, and what is a good money making habit?

              Or the difference between motivation and habit? Or as Charlie Brown might sing, "Why's everybody always pickin on me?"

              And of course, I like the definition of motivation as set forth by Earl Nightingale who said:
              motivation comes along with the progressive realization of a worthy idea.

              Now, that can be problematic as regards what is worthy and all that.

              But the big part is PROGRESSIVE REALIZATION, and it is a reason for many a Warrior to give up and move on, or to keep on keeping on when they should have quit.

              If one is making measurable progress, and the dream/vision/goal is being REALized via incremental steps, that keeps them going.

              NO results, dismal results, money spent, none coming in...isn't progress, it is just spinning the wheels and getting deeper and deeper stuck in the mud.

              GordonJ




              Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

              You are correct. The issue becomes people using motivation to push themselves to do things they don't really want to do.

              Back when the forum had far more people posting. It was interesting to see the popular trends in motivation. A few gurus would repeatedly say you should get less sleep or wake up a four am. Then people would jump on the trend. .

              I remember reading the book mindset back after it came out sitting in borders bookstore years before they all closed. Now people tend to just use the word mindset without the real reference of what that book was talking about.

              My view is many times motivation is used by people to get themselves to follow some cobbled together list of things they believe they should be doing. Because they have heard it from some guru or read it from many places.

              Probably the only valid use of that outside push motivation is through the time it takes to develop a habit .

              Where true motivation comes from doing a thing one enjoys doing.
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        • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
          You should have seen the one that got away. It was pretty, pretty, pretty, huuuge.

          And, yes, WF, is my guilty hobby, keeps from Reality shows, and TikTok dances and YouTube kitties. And with mind forum, always a hoot to be gotten too.

          GordonJ


          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          It also goes without saying that what is important for people is not always what is good for them and that, sometimes, people have more than one thing that's important to them and some of them are in conflict and some are ordered in importance in a way that's not all that useful.


          In the second case, people end up producing a lot of waste, for sure.


          As in, important things are: the rush from gambling and keeping a roof over your family's head.


          Confused people say no, a marketing guru once wrote, so they do not buy.


          Confused people chase lots of things, he could have said too.


          And, he could have said, conflicted people buy, but it's hard to guess what.


          I think a lot of the people who've been here for a long time without producing the results they want are


          not that interested in producing the results (but it makes them look good to themselves or someone important to them to be here, "trying;"


          interested but conflicted (the most important thing to them is to hit the motherload and, thus, prove to their significant other's parents that they're not the loser all their in-laws think, being one variant... So, they do not accept the small, consistent victories that lead to one big one... but keep jumping around, trying to bypass the in-between victories for that one big one);


          dreamers looking for hobby or for whom participating in this forum is a hobby, or a community that makes them feel good... And, wouldn't it be lovely if, on top of that, with not a lot of effort, of course, it ended up making them money too? Of course, if it does not, it still beats going to the corner bar, throwing some darts and spending money on beer and shots while having to listen to that dunderhead of Larry droning on and on about that fish he caught back in 2004 at Devil's Lake in 2004!
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    You talk about people being here a long time without producing results...

    I think most people look at the glory and not the gore.

    They see an Olympic athlete win a gold medal and tell themselves that's what they want. Same with business...they look at the glory days of wealth.

    They fail to take into account the long hard hours of training. Training in the dark...the heat...the cold...the strict diets...the determination and dedication...

    So someone starts off to follow the glory, then when the reality of what it takes sinks in...ehhhh, maybe this isn't for me...think I'll try something easier. Hmmmm, wonder what this thing is about that says I can make $50K a month.

    The truth is starting a business can be hard work. Long hours of mundane stuff. Stress. Sleepless nights. A million twists and turns where you need to be ready to face new challenges without a cheerleading squad there to cheer you on.

    Some say, welllllll, I kinda sorta like the email building thing...or I kinda sorta like the ebook thing...

    people that think like this are looking for a hobby.

    Those who take an idea that is known to make money, and learn how to do it are true business-minded people.

    Savidge4 did a whole thread on how to make money on eBay. Training that would probably cost hundreds if not thousands to learn. Step by step. Day by day...

    and yet people are still looking for a way to make money.

    Boggles the mind actually.

    I've come to the conclusion that most people are really just looking for a hobby. There's a step-by-step plan right on this forum that works if you work it so why wouldn't you start there?

    Just my thoughts.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


      They see an Olympic athlete win a gold medal and tell themselves that's what they want. Same with business...they look at the glory days of wealth.

      They fail to take into account the long hard hours of training. Training in the dark...the heat...the cold...the strict diets...the determination and dedication...

      So someone starts off to follow the glory, then when the reality of what it takes sinks in...ehhhh, maybe this isn't for me...think I'll try something easier. Hmmmm, wonder what this thing is about that says I can make $50K a month.

      The truth is starting a business can be hard work. Long hours of mundane stuff. Stress. Sleepless nights. A million twists and turns where you need to be ready to face new challenges without a cheerleading squad there to cheer you on.
      The good news and the bad news.

      The good news is that it's easy to tell who will be successful. It's the people asking about the work, the process, the journey. It's the people who revel in the grind.

      The people who won't make it are the ones who keep thinking about the end result...the goal...the dream...the fantasy....and aren't thinking about the steps needed to get there.

      The bad news is that this second group is far larger than the first group (easily twenty times larger). And if you are selling a course...a process....you have to cater to these dreamers, or you won't sell very much.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        The good news and the bad news.

        The good news is that it's easy to tell who will be successful. It's the people asking about the work, the process, the journey. It's the people who revel in the grind.

        The people who won't make it are the ones who keep thinking about the end result...the goal...the dream...the fantasy....and aren't thinking about the steps needed to get there.

        The bad news is that this second group is far larger than the first group (easily twenty times larger). And if you are selling a course...a process....you have to cater to these dreamers, or you won't sell very much.
        Amen. Agreed. The questions will reveal the who, as far as future success can be predicted. Although, I also agree about the revel in the grind, I am hesitant to call the habits of success, a "grind". Probably just me and semantics. A habit of more than a year, isn't thought of as a grind? But maybe it is.

        Anyhow.

        In the second group, the larger one, there are still a lot of BUYERS. And for us publishers, it is low hanging fruit, especially if we frame it as reaching a goal, achieving a dream or one of those ways, because, it is what they want. As an information marketer I like to find groups of buyers who want the something.

        We can cater to them, without involvement in THEIR process, or lack of any. If they are hobbyists, with a huge bookshelf collection of money making manuals, so be it.

        There is a combined very good discussion in Copywriting forum, spearheaded by Max5ty, who is sharing some remarkable information. He is like the Shamu of Sea Worlds of yesteryear, while most of us are like penguins balancing balls on our noses.

        And I borrowed a few thoughts from there, simply because they are relevant to this post about motivation and inspiration.

        But before I do that, my one thought on COPYWRITING in general, the kind Max5ty talks about becoming, isn't what MOST (and I am cautious about using that word)...what MOST so-called copywriters are or THINK they are today. Cutting your copy teeth on research, in big rollouts, spending a lot on testing...very few newer people even have a clue, let alone any business sense.

        Mx (my abbrev for Max5ty) said: One thing I see so many "freelance" copywriters do wrong (IMO), is they've studied copywriting, but they don't know enough about any other business concepts to help the business owner make a difference.

        It is like the current Marketing Agency guy asking how to get marketing clients, or the Content Provider asking about how to set up a content business...YIKES!!!

        And to share a couple of CW (Claude W) ideas:

        The people who won't make it are the ones who keep thinking about the end result...the goal...the dream...the fantasy....and aren't thinking about the steps needed to get there. CW

        The information buyer is buying a Dream. Not a lie...but a dream. The entire sale takes place in their imagination. And matching your words to their imagination is a different thing than matching your words to something concrete, (as real product) surrounded by their imagination. CW

        Yes. I might argue, or present the other side, it may be harder to work within their imagination than it is to work with a real product they can touch and feel. We have to elicit response without a product there. One of the best lessons of my marketing life was being in many Real Life Simulations FOCUS study groups, and how we ran them was by having only the PROMOTION and not the product.

        We did products, and found out how skewed it makes the study, too much wanting to please, liking, saying how great it was, etc., etc.

        But when they only had the PROMOTION and could exchange their pay for the group for one of the 6 or 7 products, when they SPENT the money, it showed us the promotion was working, and we could do a test roll out.

        When NO money is on the table, my Opinion, most Focus Groups, are mis-focused...and unreliable, Only the market, only the wallets, only the purses being opened and money coming out made a difference.

        When offering concepts, like goal reaching success, even in biz-op, it is widely known and accepted the work is placed on the buyer, Yes, THEY HAVE TO do the thing, but when someone bought a book at say Barnes and Noble, or BAM on starting a home business, neither company felt responsible for any implementation.

        And if the copy or promotion is written truthfully, without the hype and big promises, and the information delivered fulfills the promotional promise, I am not upset whether it gets used, implemented, or given away.

        With this in mind, the perfect PRODUCT is the prospect (actually wrote a report on that 20 years ago)...we oldsters talk about LifeTimeValue, LTV, whereas today they may call it loyalty or raving fans.

        What Tony Robbins has learned from his Billion dollars of business over the years, nothing has LTV like self-improvement, and especially motivation and inspiration, because Claude is very right...the second larger group, maybe even more than 20% larger...

        well, I am glad they are so huge. Doers are going to do, find a way. But if dreamers have money to spend and it makes them feel good to do so, no problemo.

        GordonJ
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
        Banned
        Interesting Claude.

        I think that both would be ideal ― it doesn't have to be "either/or".

        I don't mind putting in all the work ― and enjoying the process (etc.) ― however I'm also motivated by the end Goal/Result. Honestly I think having an ambitious Dream/Goal/Vision/etc. is a great thing ... Like you said though a Person has to think about the steps it takes to get there. (As it's been said: "A dream is a goal with a plan of action.")

        2C

        Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

        Where true motivation comes from doing a thing one enjoys doing.
        Absolutely: Well said Odahh.
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        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
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          • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
            Banned
            Ya ― good point, I agree. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with "Dreaming" ... Providing that it's somewhat "achievable".
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            "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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    • Profile picture of the author Warner williams
      I am starting my business. I am at the part of the sleepless nights, the closed doors, and the budget tightening. I am not saying been there, done that... no. I am actually impressed that someone is aware of the realities of wearing a badge.
      I was a part of my college athlete team, and the coach gave me a special gift. It was a pair of construction steel-toe boots. "I want you to use these during training."
      Made no sense, I could do one hundred meters in eleven seconds. I was the best. But in those boots, I was clocking close to 14!
      On the competition day, he brought me another gift. A pair of Rebok sprint shoes. I clocked 10.3 seconds.
      Glory! You should have heard my complaints, bad -mouthing, and even threats of quitting
      I am not in this for the hobby. I need to make a living here online. Now.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Thanks Warner for your story.

        You want to make a living online, now, then KEEP moving. It is the movement, the controlled move, which is what a motive gives, the power and energy to keep going.

        Your coach used a training technique, which you did not understand, but when the final results were in, in spite of the bitchin and moaning, you were glad you wore those clunky shoes, eh?

        As this part of the WF is about, the mental part of keeping in motion toward your goal.

        Maybe, what you are doing today is the equivalent of wearing steel toed shoes, you are in training, so to speak, but still MOVING.

        What we see in the Mind forum, for so often, and from so many, is...a lack of motion and an overabundance of thought.

        We see a parsing of definitions, a delay of meaningful activity, a stuttering of growth all to often blamed on lack of inspiration/motivation or awaiting empowerment.

        Your coach empowered you, although you didn't realize it at the time.

        Now what I would advise someone in your position is: review your PLAN, and recheck your assessment of your skills, and experiences to solidly identify your VALUE, which is what is exchanged in the market.

        One big difference in IM or online marketing, it is seldom a sprint, more like a marathon and even those high quality track shoes you wore, may feel like brick shoes after a few months...that is when you will see your motivation in action.

        Keep in productive motion, and you'll find all the inspiration you need to carry on.

        Just remember, it doesn't take years, it can happen in months if you are smart about it. Good luck.

        GordonJ


        Originally Posted by Warner williams View Post

        I am starting my business. I am at the part of the sleepless nights, the closed doors, and the budget tightening. I am not saying been there, done that... no. I am actually impressed that someone is aware of the realities of wearing a badge.
        I was a part of my college athlete team, and the coach gave me a special gift. tivIt was a pair of construction steel-toe boots. "I want you to use these during training."
        Made no sense, I could do one hundred meters in eleven seconds. I was the best. But in those boots, I was clocking close to 14!
        On the competition day, he brought me another gift. A pair of Rebok sprint shoes. I clocked 10.3 seconds.
        Glory! You should have heard my complaints, bad -mouthing, and even threats of quitting
        I am not in this for the hobby. I need to make a living here online. Now.
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Warner williams View Post

        I am starting my business. I am at the part of the sleepless nights, the closed doors, and the budget tightening. I am not saying been there, done that... no. I am actually impressed that someone is aware of the realities of wearing a badge.
        I was a part of my college athlete team, and the coach gave me a special gift. It was a pair of construction steel-toe boots. "I want you to use these during training."
        Made no sense, I could do one hundred meters in eleven seconds. I was the best. But in those boots, I was clocking close to 14!
        On the competition day, he brought me another gift. A pair of Rebok sprint shoes. I clocked 10.3 seconds.
        Glory! You should have heard my complaints, bad -mouthing, and even threats of quitting
        I am not in this for the hobby. I need to make a living here online. Now.
        I also think it's important to remember that no matter what your story is...it has little to do with online marketing in most situations...

        People are looking to solve a problem.

        Do you have a solution?

        It's pretty simple.

        How many people have the problem your solution will help?

        We can tell stories about experiences and life lessons...

        but what are you helping people with right now to solve a problem?

        You can have the best story...but still not sell anything.

        Online marketing isn't about your past, it's about what problem you are solving right now, today, this minute.
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        • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
          Thinking back, I don't see the problem the Pet Rock solved, or tiny chunks of coal from the TITANIC, albeit, both million dollar+ babies. Or ant farms, hula hoops, or mink coats.

          Sure, a solution to a problem is one of the best, fastest and often the easiest way to go about IM, but there are other ways too. And, problem/solution may have a lot of competition, so the solution offered need be unique and different too, eh? We see in the Warrior Path thread, where savidge4 created a blueprint on the eBay way to an ongoing income, maybe solving the problem for some who need money. Biz-Op has always been around for that.

          We also see the documentation of art72, his story as it unfolds before our eyes, and I would say, many old timey marketers built their initial offers around their story, ala Joe Karbo, who succinctly told his rags to riches story in a few paragraphs.

          Many a success, whether it is financial or of discovery, or even enlightenment is wrapped around a story. Now we only have a polaroid snapshot of our new Warrior's story...and maybe there is more which he can use to springboard his IM journey.

          There may be VALUE in a personal journey, and maybe it is showing a path to avoid the potential problems, sort of footprints in the sand.

          Today, I rec'd a new offer for AI generated artwork from public domain art. The offer claimed this "art world" global market had a 2021 value of 65.1 billion dollars. And there were many examples of etsy sites selling it successfully.

          One friend specializes in off beat rack jobbing, his latest is the wooden plaque of the year, and it is doing well. It shows a newspaper like image of the year, say 1998, and the main events of that year.

          So, although I agree that if one has a solution to a problem, that may certainly be the best way to go, the path of least resistance, but that is why I have consistently for decades called for ASSESSMENT first, to see what value one brings with them to the market place, and sometimes, their personal story, may be all they need bring.

          GordonJ

          P.S. I prefer to look at what value is being brought rather than what solutions do they have, may be both or neither, which is why assessment comes first, in my book.



          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          I also think it's important to remember that no matter what your story is...it has little to do with online marketing in most situations...

          People are looking to solve a problem.

          Do you have a solution?

          It's pretty simple.

          How many people have the problem your solution will help?

          We can tell stories about experiences and life lessons...

          but what are you helping people with right now to solve a problem?

          You can have the best story...but still not sell anything.

          Online marketing isn't about your past, it's about what problem you are solving right now, today, this minute.
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

            Thinking back, I don't see the problem the Pet Rock solved, or tiny chunks of coal from the TITANIC, albeit, both million dollar+ babies. Or ant farms, hula hoops, or mink coats.
            A lot of times when a product goes viral, there is a new problem...the problem that everybody else needs to get on board with the sensation and grab it so they can be part of the trend and not be left out.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

            Thinking back, I don't see the problem the Pet Rock solved, or tiny chunks of coal from the TITANIC, albeit, both million dollar+ babies. Or ant farms, hula hoops, or mink coats.

            I have consistently for decades called for ASSESSMENT first, to see what value one brings with them to the market place, and sometimes, their personal story, may be all they need bring.

            GordonJ

            P.S. I prefer to look at what value is being brought rather than what solutions do they have, may be both or neither, which is why assessment comes first, in my book.
            I'm talking to people here that know so much more about copywriting...so much more about internet marketing than I do. Yes, the story is key. Yes, a solution to a problem is key.

            Still....

            In selling, there is a trope. "It's not what you say but how you say it". We have all heard that.

            Yes. Say the wrong thing and you lose the prospect.

            Say the right thing the wrong way...and you can lose the prospect.

            My guess is that 10% of the sale is determined by what you say and 10% of the sale is determined by how you say it. Both essential factors in selling and marketing.

            But in my own selling (and I hope this translates well), the other 80% of the sale is determined by...who you say it to.

            And that's one huge thing that marketing taught me about selling.

            Who are you talking to?

            Because there is the vast majority of people that will never buy what you are offering.

            And there is a small number that will almost always buy what you are offering, as long as you know how to reach them.

            So....to Warner Williams...who are you trying to reach?

            One key way to know what someone is highly likely to buy is this...What have they bought before? And how did they buy it?

            If you tell us what your offer is, I'm pretty sure be able to help you figure out how to find those highly likely buyers.

            Anyway, I just want to feel included.
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          • Profile picture of the author DABK
            There is a problem here too... along the lines of "I matter (more than you)".


            Are you cool enough to have a pet rock? Because only the cool ones get why you should have a pet rock. The philistines/ the plebes will never get one. So, which one are you, a loser or a winner? A winner, then buy the damn thing already!



            Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

            Thinking back, I don't see the problem the Pet Rock solved, or tiny chunks of coal from the TITANIC, albeit, both million dollar+ babies. Or ant farms, hula hoops, or mink coats.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      On your manifestation dream board.

      Where in the P.I. will you go? Do you speak the language (mostly Tagolog) ? Although English is the main language, it is nice to know what Mama is saying about you in her native tongue.

      How will you get there? Plane? Boat? Where will you stay?

      As for the 5k a month, several people have started their programs to reach this via information marketing, and I expect all of them will, as long as they follow directions and keep at it. I want fast results. So, most people eliminate themselves from the program within the first 10 days or so, simply because they have no sense of urgency.

      When I work with someone, they MUST have an information product for sale within 10 days of the start, and that tells me what I need to know as to whether or not I can work with them.

      One can NOT scale up from nothing.

      On the other hand, everyone can build on something.

      If I were wanting a similar outcome, a wife/companion from the P.I. I would be spending time learning all I could about the places, the language, and the people. A very large population in San Diego, with connections to their homeland, and it has decent weather most of the year too.

      But most important, and you are covering some of this, especially with your weight loss and such, instead of thinking what I want from them (her)...

      What do I have to offer? I think you realized that the extra 30 pounds or so made you less attractive than you could be. What adds may be a command of the language, a knowledge of the people, and more focus on what one has to GIVE...

      rather than what one GETS.

      GordonJ


      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

      I'm fine with dreams. But I have learned to aim at the ones I will put in the effort that I will sustain for as long as I need to make it real.

      With an understanding of how long will be needed from the start . There are unicorns who can pull stuff of much faster or achieve much better results than the vast majority of people. That's not me the timeline and results I aim for use timeline that it takes normal people who achieve them to achieve them.

      I have also plunged into enough fantasties and had the blow up and reality just suck. To set the fantasies aside

      It's been cold in Vegas since November and moving around the country there is no place I want to live that doesn't get much colder than I like 4 months out of the year. I'd jump on the 5 k a month goal Gordon keeps saying is possible in a year. So I can spend half the year in the Philippines.. plus all the health issues I have been working on where thin the girlfriend's I had when I was there ten years ago told me I needed to fix as we where breaking up.

      So that's that the motivation behind the things I have been working on and getting my head together. Has been to be more appealing to a Filipina the next time I can get to the Philippines and have a good chance of having a long term relationship or even marriage.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    The people who won't make it are the ones who keep thinking about the end result...the goal...the dream...the fantasy....and aren't thinking about the steps needed to get there. CW


    I am NOT one to use sports analogies and yet I'm about to do just that. I saw a football trainer in tears on TV last week as he talked about Sam Hubbard's 98 yard touchdown.


    He didn't talk about Hubbard's 'dreams' or his 'motivation' or his desire for 'success'. What he said was that Hubbard was one of the hardest working players he's ever known. That day after day Sam is training..training..often after other players have finished. He is working out to increase his strength and running to increase speed with a body not built for speed.



    He said even though Sam H KNOWS much of what he works on will never be used in a game...he keeps at it. So, at the end of a hard game where he'd been on the field expending energy in play after play.....Hubbard still had the strength to run 98 yards when he had the chance....at over 17 mph. It was not motivation or dreams of success or glory...it was hard work day after day that paid off when that strength and speed were needed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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      Thanks Kay. I can't remember where I read it ― I read a lot of books (Lol) ― however I remember the advice that Hard Work, Persistence, and Dedication can make up for a lack of intelligence/talent/ability/etc.

      (Just another 2C)

      [Added=]
      Often it's not the most talented/skilful (etc.) Person that achieves success ― it's the Person that puts all the work, time, effort, and energy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

        Thanks Kay. I can't remember where I read it ― I read a lot of books (Lol) ― however I remember the advice that Hard Work, Persistence, and Dedication can make up for a lack of intelligence/talent/ability/etc.

        (Just another 2C)

        [Added=]
        Often it's not the most talented/skilful (etc.) Person that achieves success ― it's the Person that puts all the work, time, effort, and energy.
        If I can edit the add a little it's the people who enjoy the work time effort and energy involved to the point that is what they would rather do than anything else.

        From a personal view point the most effective starting point that motivation has a chance to work to create lasting changes. Is being absolutely fed up. Or terrified of what will happen if changes are not made.

        There is plenty of attempts to simulate that with certain kinds of motivation. But unless a person hits the breaking point where enough is enough. It's very hard to simulate.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Banned
          Thanks Odahh. Something I learned from W. Clement Stone is something he calls: "Inspirational Dissatisfaction." Essentially that means: "You can profit by disappointment ― if it is turned into Inspirational Dissatisfaction with a positive mental attitude."

          I know what it's like ― often reaching a low point can be the motivation to succeed.

          HTH.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Great.

      I am not going to address anyone personally, but here are some thoughts on how I might manifest this idea. By the way, your choice is beautiful, spent a very quick 3 days down the Palawan Island area, I like the Southern Islands myself. Anyhow...

      First thing I do is a personal ASSESSMENT. Now I probably have an unfair advantage thanks to my ADD/ADHD, in not being very employable over the years, picked up some useful skills.

      On my dream board and in my notebook, along with bookmarks for every site which talks about Puerto Princesa and Palawan, I would cut out or print out pictures of the location, and some of the sights, so I can SEE them everyday in my subconscious mind. I would spend time in meditation, and guided visualizations feeling the warm sand beneath my feet and feeling the gratitude of being in such a lovely place.

      So A CLEAR VISION of the place, in as much detail as my imagination can muster.

      Then, the Q and A. What do they want there? One thing, now that Covid restrictions have been lifted, is a more normal TOURIST season, they need visitors, customers in their shops.

      What are the TRAVEL agencies serving the area? What do they offer? How about cruise lines, or even local boat cruises? As for Asian travel destinations, these little hyped secret beaches of the P.I. are perfect for certain types.

      Could I work with a travel agent in Las Vegas who books visits to these areas? Maybe on a commission put toward a trip? Could I start a simple blog, or even a WF path, to document my journey.

      Would this appeal to EX-Pats, maybe younger Boomers who served over there, and may want to visit or escape the rat race of today and have a nice extended vaca on the islands. If I didn't know Tagalog, I would learn it, and also consider other countries which offer Asian adventures.

      A blog would go a long way to establish authority, if you've been there and tell a great story about wanting to go back.

      If I were to catch a cheap flight having all my Visa/Passport ducks in a row, could I take a temp job? Could I work in one of the hotel kitchens? Or could I be the American guide to other tourists? What skills could I use as barter, TO get me there and allow me to live there for an extended period to find out if it suited me or not.

      See, I approach all goals and manifestations from the angle, of...what do I have/need to GIVE in order to get what I want? Who do I give it to? What VALUE do I offer in exchange for their thing?

      And of course, a TIME line, a completion date. The old pg 36 of Think and Grow Rich, by such and such a date, I will have in my possession blah, blah, yada, yada.

      Could I maybe cook my way over on a cruise ship, or merchant vessel? Could I crew on a yacht or smaller cruise line, what can I trade for airplane tickets?

      As I focus my thoughts and energy upon the goal, a vortex is created, and what happens it becomes magnetic, drawing other thoughts and ideas, and PEOPLE into it, the goal is the eye of the hurricane, very calm, still while all around there is activity, people I have never met, already at work doing things which will get me to where I want to go.

      Now, this is just my way, you can find scores of books, and other ideas on how manifestation works, but a strong desire coupled with positive assumption, and a dedication the its realization will bring about the manifestation on schedule.

      Starting to create the Vortex, even with simple print outs of the destination, is like a small snowball thrown down the hill until it becomes an avalanche.

      The good news for you is, you have a pretty good idea in your mind of what the perfect manifestation might look like, now you have to do what it takes to make it real, and it sounds like you are on your way. Good luck with that.

      GordonJ

      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

      It was the extra hundred pounds the real bad place my mental state was in. The bad physical stat I was in. And the terrible sense of style I still have but can easily be fixed when I get over there and get to a tailor and get close that fit right made. Then get some dental work done. As all cost a fraction of the the cost as in the USA.

      So the things I have been working on have been specially to make me more appealing to Filipinas. As for language English is the 2 nd most widely spoken language in the Philippines. I'm catholic by up bringing and the country is mainly catholic and that matters.

      The average monthly income of a Filipino is around 300 usd that is with a college education. So my comfort level even if I'm just living on 1500 a month or less is a massive jump in standard of living for most women there. And if I'm fit and well dressed I'm highly desirable there as well as being considered rich even with just 5 k usd $ in income a month.

      Anyways the desired location their right now for me is puerto princesa Palawan. I can rent a comfortable place for 300-400 . Then I will find a girlfriend after I get settled in. And it's more the girl will find me.

      Plane tickets from Las Vegas to Manila Manila round trip are about 1200 or so depending and an onward ticket from the Philippines within 30 days is required to get on the plane from the USA . But a one way ticket runs under 1000 dollars. So I will say 2500 in travel expenses there and back if I stay several months.

      There is a list of other expenses but if I'm not trying to eat steak or run air conditioning in the place I live 24 hours a day. I have been studying Philippines living for over ten years . It was the health issues and mental state I had to fix before I could hope to go again. Even if I had the money to go again.

      As for the income if I want to stay it would be comfortable to have 5 k a month income online to pay taxes and save some money every month. If I just visit for 4 months next year I'll need 10,000-13,000$ saved up.

      Boots on the ground for several month I might find out I don't actually like living in the Philippines

      On the other hand I'm open to the possibility that once I get back on my own place somewhere in the USA I will probably find a girlfriend here. Maybe not a potential wife. I'm not limited to the Philippines for that. With the improvements I have made if I can find a way I enjoy making money that allows me to live outside the USA for several months a year. There are other options but the Philippines it the one I don't really have to learn another language until I am there.

      Other next time I actually go to the Philippines will probably just be for under a month.
      Adding
      The other option until I can financially manage going to the Philippines and have a proper emergency fund. Once I get my passport again is Merida Mexico I can fly into Cancun and get a six month tourist visa. Cost of living is similar to the Philippines and the internet is better. While is has a climate like the hotter months in Las Vegas. But I will have to learn Spanish .
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

      I lack passion right now. There is relief and gratitude and I can see a better future for me in the near term. But no real passion at this point..
      Hi Odahh. For what it's worth ― I started many Ventures over the years however I never stayed with them (because I was just doing it for the money) ... It wasn't until I focused on helping/contributing to People that really made the difference.

      So I suppose the point would be choose a Venture (etc.) that really contributes to People somehow: Making money is great ― however really making a difference is more motivating for me.

      HTH
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post


      So coming back to the point of the thread much of the years of struggle is probably from people looking for a way to make money. Instead of using the internet serve others from what they are passionate about. And it may just be because most of the things they are passionate about don't yet translate into something that works online.
      I don't buy into the passion argument, if it is there, a great bonus for those who love what brings them money. Also, passion and service don't need to go together, they can be and often should be separate.

      Now the flip side of the coin, as you will see in my 20 years of posting, is, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER?

      They come here to WF as seekers of making money online, it is what it is all about here.

      They don't arrive hoping to learn how to become the next Mother Teresa, do they?

      And it may be construed as being of service, if your offer benefits them in financial ways, but it is also (allegedly) is a why and how of manifestation...GIVE THEN GET.

      So, if it is one sided, how do I make money with affiliate marketing? How do I make money with ecom? How do I make money with this, that, whatever the hot idea of the day is...tells us just about everything we need to know to HELP this person.

      Basically, and there is a 20 year mountain of evidence here, is, WE DON'T.

      Because we can offer our anecdotal experiences, and maybe a blueprint, or formula or path to follow, but we quickly find that size doesn't fit THAT person, or else we wouldn't see the years of struggle, would we?

      Money is about math. And it is basic. An exchange of value gives you money. Value is both a perception and market dictated.

      So when we encounter the new Warrior, I, I, I ...want, need, etc., it should get turned around quickly to what do you bring, have, can contribute.

      Because the math tells us that is where the money is. NOT in passion, not in service, although both worthy ideals. Unless a Warrior is striving for Mother Teresa status, where poverty is a way of life while you serve, very Jesus/Christian like...we find most Warriors don't want to live in the slums, on the streets, serving the poor.

      So, staying poor, and not achieving anything, doesn't really make for a provider of good service, other than empathy, being in the same place...and here at WF, they come not to remain where they are and be in better spirits about themselves. but to learn about making money online.

      And, again, that is the math part of it. Be it the 5k a month, to 10x that a month. The math tells you what you have to do.

      Now if have passion and that passion is about serving others, and you still want to make money, because it elevates you from empathy to being able to really guide and mentor, that is even better. Very good, if you have passion and service to your income.

      Again, I argue, neither are necessary. And here mostly excuses for not doing the math, and then NOT doing the thing that makes the math a personal reality.

      GordonJ
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

        Now if have passion and that passion is about serving others, and you still want to make money, because it elevates you from empathy to being able to really guide and mentor, that is even better. Very good, if you have passion and service to your income.
        I keep reading "Do what you love, and you'll......" We can all finish that statement.

        The problem is, very few things people love to do...actually translate into any real money....except them spending money...on the thing they love.
        And we are not born loving any particular activity...except eating, pooping, and sleeping. We develop things we love doing....from the options available.

        I've found it more profitable to do something that makes money...and get great at it....and the natural result is that you will love doing it. Why? Because we love the feeling we get when we are doing something at a high level.

        I once read (I have no idea where) that we should just start doing something. And the more times we do it, the easier it is to do...and the more we will enjoy doing it.

        That's what kept me getting better for years, the knowledge that I'll get better, and then enjoy it more...and I did. Weird how that worked.
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        • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
          I've found it more profitable to do something that makes money.

          Wisdom from the trenches. This is why I started this thread, if anyone has been a participating Warrior for 10, 12, 14 years and still doesn't make at least a monthly living income (roof over head, food in belly as a MINIMUM)...

          It is because they don't really want to.

          And, after savidge4 posted that eBay thread a couple of years back, even if one does not want to do that, there is in that ONE thread, a lot of how to information that strips away all the excuses.

          There are dozens of such threads here at WF. The massive What to do if you are desperate, has tons of value in it too.

          Most of the world does something they don't like to do to make money, and what a luxury it must be to go a decade or more knowing Internet Marketing HOW TO is at your fingertips and yet you choose to ignore it.

          A luxury of selfishness.

          Today, we have ready built, ready to use tools that are FREE, cost us nothing, and can be up and running in an hour, with ready to buy customers on that platform.

          Not to be a "back in the day" 3 foot of snow, uphill, to and from school type...but no one needs to build anything like a website or blog, it is there, ready to go.

          All you need is TO DO the thing that makes money.

          Maybe it will turn into a thing one likes, or maybe it is just a path to raising capital to invest in a passion/lifestyle/business which fulfills all of the needs.

          But a decade of Internet Marketing without success? NO.

          NO!

          GordonJ







          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I keep reading "Do what you love, and you'll......" We can all finish that statement.

          The problem is, very few things people love to do...actually translate into any real money....except them spending money...on the thing they love.
          And we are not born loving any particular activity...except eating, pooping, and sleeping. We develop things we love doing....from the options available.

          I've found it more profitable to do something that makes money...and get great at it....and the natural result is that you will love doing it. Why? Because we love the feeling we get when we are doing something at a high level.

          I once read (I have no idea where) that we should just start doing something. And the more times we do it, the easier it is to do...and the more we will enjoy doing it.

          That's what kept me getting better for years, the knowledge that I'll get better, and then enjoy it more...and I did. Weird how that worked.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I keep reading "Do what you love, and you'll......" We can all finish that statement.
          It's almost a cliché Claude ... However that's because there's a lot of truth to it.

          Honestly if an Entrepreneur etc. is doing what they love ... Well it doesn't matter what People think, say or do ... They just keep working on what's important to them. And ― for the most part ― enjoy the process/journey.
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          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            It's almost a cliché Claude ... However that's because there's a lot of truth to it.

            Honestly if an Entrepreneur etc. is doing what they love ... Well it doesn't matter what People think, say or do ... They just keep working on what's important to them. And ― for the most part ― enjoy the process/journey.
            An Entrepreneur does not go 14 years without making money.

            As for just keeping on doing what is important to them, OF COURSE.

            But they don't need to come to the WF, and the Mind Forum. where the CONTEXT, as I brought up in the OP...and complain (or even whine) about not making enough money to DO WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO THEM.

            No one who is doing what is important to them, concerns themselves with any opinions or criticisms.

            And making money, online, with IM, requires not a single drop of passion.

            Social workers, do-gooders, helpers have thousands of other sites and millions of other people to tend to.

            CONTEXT. WF. Making money with IM> Mind Forum> to aid in THAT process.

            Let me state this opinion as clear as I can. NO Entrepreneur, none, zilch...nada...gives a crap about what others think about his/her journey. Maybe, they care about customers, clients or consumers, if they have any.

            No one is arguing that passion isn't a good thing to have...but if one's passion is for years of poverty and hand to mouth, month to month living, I doubt they should be called an Entrepreneur.

            And, as Claude put it from his time tested proof, get good at doing what you may not like at first, but competence and then expertise might be the tipping point for the passion to be added.

            The whole idea of a RAT RACE, to be escaped from, is a large group of people who don't like what they do or who they do it around...and seek freedom from that, BUT, keep at it to pay the bills, roof, food, etc. If they can find a less stressful way, even one that may be equally less satisfying for a short while....the IM, the WF gives them hope and HOW TO.

            Entrepreneurs by their nature have their passion. I take issue with those who call themselves that and have no risk, no skin in the game, and are unwilling to put any in.

            Social workers are not Entrepreneurial by their nature also.

            GordonJ Mr. CONTEXT
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            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
              Banned
              Lol. Thanks Gordon. I've read that when a Person/Entrepreneur is close to Success ― well that's when People (etc.) will be "negative". Oh well. : )
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              • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                Lol. Thanks Gordon. I've read that when a Person/Entrepreneur is close to Success ― well that's when People (etc.) will be "negative". Oh well. : )
                ...and they probably wouldn't waste their time even responding to what the negative might think. Oh well. GJ
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                • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                  Banned
                  [Added=]
                  As an update approximately 1.5 years ago I continued working on what Eben Pagan would say is a "Passion Project" ― or something ― which is basically a Venture that you do just for the thrill/experience of it.

                  However because of finances I decided to work on a side Venture (YourHealthyKnowledge) ... I thought it would take approx. 6 months ... However it's taking a lot more than that. That said ― I decided to make the decision to stay with it no matter what and it should all be competed by the end of February.

                  P.S.
                  If there were awards for being dedicated/and taking Action .... I would win them hands down.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                Lol. Thanks Gordon. I've read that when a Person/Entrepreneur is close to Success ― well that's when People (etc.) will be "negative". Oh well. : )
                Not the people that matter. Not the ones that care about you. The people that matter are the ones that encourage you and cheer you on.

                And..to be honest...there is no reason to tell anyone that you are close to success...or even succeeding.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Not the people that matter. Not the ones that care about you. The people that matter are the ones that encourage you and cheer you on.
                  The Cheryl's of the world are RARE. I really dont have those type of people in my life - more so now as I have gotten older and "Successful", but ill be damned if I am not that person for anyone I run across
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    The Cheryl's of the world are RARE. I really dont have those type of people in my life - more so now as I have gotten older and "Successful", but ill be damned if I am not that person for anyone I run across
                    I should mention that Cheryl was the same when she first met me, as she is today.

                    To be truthful, she never really encouraged me, or told me something supportive. I told her what I needed to so, and she would start right in helping. Her actions made encouragement unnecessary.

                    She is insightful enough to know that I don't need encouragement or moral support. I encourage her in her artwork (or whatever she is doing) because she likes it, and I know it's how her family talks to each other.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            It's almost a cliché Claude ... However that's because there's a lot of truth to it.

            Honestly if an Entrepreneur etc. is doing what they love ... Well it doesn't matter what People think, say or do ... They just keep working on what's important to them. And ― for the most part ― enjoy the process/journey.
            My Friend;


            The most common version of that saying is "Chose a job you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life".

            The key word here is "Job", because then ...no matter what it is...you'll have an income.

            But the more common interpretation is along the lines of "Do what you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life". And that can be true, as long as you are generating an income.

            But passion doesn't translate to income.

            In some instances, dedication to a passion can make you great at it...and then maybe you can teach what you know....to translate it to an income.

            But some (maybe most) passions simply aren't of the income generating type.

            For example; For a few decades I practiced Kung Fu daily. I loved the practice. I loved talking about it, reading about it, and learning more about it. I even loved the sweat and aches it brought on.

            But it never paid me anything. And it never will. The truth is, most passions cost money, not make money.

            I'm lucky in that I started selling, and eventually learned to enjoy it immensely.

            I wonder if the great artists had a passion for painting or sculpting...when they were still terrible at it? I think the passion grows with activity...with confidence....with recognition (for some).

            I love my wife more than I can put into words. But when I first met her, I just thought she was a cute lady. The love came later. The passion came later. Over time.

            Passion (for lack of a better word) grows over time. It's never there in the very beginning.

            how could it be? How could you love something you've never done before?

            And that's what I meant by working first, and developing the love for that work as you go.
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            • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
              Thanks Claude, you brought this full circle back to my OP.

              But passion doesn't translate to income.

              Nor does motivation, inspiration or empowerment alone. They must be coupled with effort. And the effort made is often based on some WHO.

              The troublesome someone, appears in "I've read somewhere" or "JOE GURU says", or this IM millionaire who hands out trophies and awards or that IM guy who wrote a book.

              Getting information about HOW is great, finding mentors, even in books, is a good thing until they become a crutch, leaned upon by those who need motivation, inspiration and have someone else empower them, rather than take the responsibility of their own situation/conditions/current place in life.

              What my OP was about is pretty simple...WF is a place to learn how to make money with IM, and the Mind forum is a place to get your mind in the right place to DO that. But, over a decade or longer without results, just a pile of excuses.

              I suggest to the WF owners, they give out a participation award yearly, sort of an Oscars type thing...for those who have participated over long periods of time...and that way, those who need to be rewarded for their dedication, albeit sans results, can feel good about themselves too.

              You know what will make most Warriors feel good? The trophy they would want to win? An IM income that allows them quit their jobs if inclined, to live a lifestyle anywhere they want, and to be free from THE MAN, and to actually escape the rat race.

              Let's ask them. You want a participation trophy? Or an IM income you can count on?

              Although passion doesn't translate into income, neither does the idea of a year and a half of effort (??) translate into dedicated action...in fact, the idea is almost infuriating.

              How about we get off the excuse treadmill? The rats are losing too much weight. '

              You want off, you get off. If you don't, then own it.

              Hope that inspires or motivates one of you Warriors. Or empowers another.

              GordonJ



              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              My Friend;


              The most common version of that saying is "Chose a job you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life".

              The key word here is "Job", because then ...no matter what it is...you'll have an income.

              But the more common interpretation is along the lines of "Do what you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life". And that can be true, as long as you are generating an income.

              But passion doesn't translate to income.

              In some instances, dedication to a passion can make you great at it...and then maybe you can teach what you know....to translate it to an income.

              But some (maybe most) passions simply aren't of the income generating type.

              For example; For a few decades I practiced Kung Fu daily. I loved the practice. I loved talking about it, reading about it, and learning more about it. I even loved the sweat and aches it brought on.

              But it never paid me anything. And it never will. The truth is, most passions cost money, not make money.

              I'm lucky in that I started selling, and eventually learned to enjoy it immensely.

              I wonder if the great artists had a passion for painting or sculpting...when they were still terrible at it? I think the passion grows with activity...with confidence....with recognition (for some).

              I love my wife more than I can put into words. But when I first met her, I just thought she was a cute lady. The love came later. The passion came later. Over time.

              Passion (for lack of a better word) grows over time. It's never there in the very beginning.

              how could it be? How could you love something you've never done before?

              And that's what I meant by working fist, and developing the love for that work as you go.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

                Getting information about HOW is great, finding mentors, even in books, is a good thing until they become a crutch, leaned upon by those who need motivation, inspiration and have someone else empower them, rather than take the responsibility of their own situation/conditions/current place in life.
                I used to attend (and put on) sales meetings. My meetings consisted of training, and hearing about the previous week's sales results. Never motivation.

                Why? Because I saw that motivation lasted until the troops hit the door. And then it lost its power. For nearly everyone that I've met that is really into motivation, they have a disconnect between motivation and action.

                My motivation was always a deadline...bills to pay....and hating to be poor.

                Writing affirmations and dream boards, I found, was the real activity...that's when these motivational people were actually working. That's where they saw their accomplishment.

                It's like when fat people read diet books or order a diet or exercise plan....it's the "reading about losing weight" that they see as the actual work, not the activity needed to actually lose weight.

                People only need motivation to do something they really...don't...want...to...do.

                If you already want to do it? motivation is unnecessary.

                Anyway, it's a theory.
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                • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                  Thanks Claude, you raise a question, or a point, about SUPPORT.

                  Young married people often grow apart and find that as love wanes, so does support for our future dreams.

                  It is great, wonderful when people are in full support, and even if they don't actively support with participation, their support of you as a person remains.

                  And the thing is, about loved ones, FAMILY, is...if they are not Entrepreneurial in their nature, they may be the first ones to throw cold water on your dream, or question your sanity when you tell them you want to become an INTERNET MARKETER.

                  Friends, family and spouses who do NOT support you, may even ridicule your efforts are some of the biggest challenges we face.

                  If you have a support system, where they at least don't make fun of you, maybe not give you full support, but at least say go for it, it is a big deal.

                  But, one big mistake I've seen made over and over, is telling the world, even friends and families our intentions re: IM, is expecting support, instead of what often happens...ridicule.

                  Keep your cards close to the vest if you do NOT have positive support. Start ups in IM are especially delicate to begin with, no need to make them even more fragile by having friends/family waste your time and energies with naysaying.

                  I think this is where the Mind Forum comes in handy, to receive support from others who have taken the path and left footprints to follow.

                  Friends and family may have to be kept in the dark, until there is something to see, some results.

                  You're lucky if you have support, but, not having it isn't an excuse either, achievement is about meeting our personal expectations, not those of others.

                  GordonJ


                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  I used to attend (and put on) sales meetings. My meetings consisted of training, and hearing about the previous week's sales results. Never motivation.

                  Why? Because I saw that motivation lasted until the troops hit the door. And then it lost its power. For nearly everyone that I've met that is really into motivation, they have a disconnect between motivation and action.

                  My motivation was always a deadline...bills to pay....and hating to be poor.

                  Writing affirmations and dream boards, I found, was the real activity...that's when these motivational people were actually working. That's where they saw their accomplishment.

                  It's like when fat people read diet books or order a diet or exercise plan....it's the "reading about losing weight" that they see as the actual work, not the activity needed to actually lose weight.

                  People only need motivation to do something they really...don't...want...to...do.

                  If you already want to do it? motivation is unnecessary.

                  Anyway, it's a theory.
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    Son studies French in high-school. Loves it, so he majors in French in College. Moves to France for a year-abroad program. Gets a BA in French, then signs up for graduate school. Gets a Master's degree, then applies to a PhD program in French lit.



                    Mother (6 years of schooling, cleans apartments for a living): But, honey, why does it take you so long to learn French? X's son did it in 2 years.


                    The same exists in IM.


                    And, then, there are the people who understand enough about IM but will still take you down a peg because you have not made $x/a month, which, they decree is the minimum you must make in order to not have IM be a hobby. (Regardless of YOUR needs).


                    You are, indeed, blessing yourself if you do not tell all and sundry that you're an entrepreneur online.


                    Dan Kennedy once said he had had a client who was getting sale through online ads... He was making lots of income. Still, his wife was not happy till she saw his ads in print. At a cost of $35k a year... which was a total loss as the ads produced no results. But the wife did believe he was a businessman, not a thief or gambler or in some other nefarious business.


                    I guess, if you're married to some such person, you cannot hide your income, must come up with an explanation. And, if the cheapest acceptable one is $35k a year, so be it.


                    On the other hand, if you can, keep it to yourself.


                    In my case, I have so many relatives who do not have a clue... I have a handful that make money online (but not the whole income they need)... and they keep that from the rest of the family (They sell candles in the shape of women (half-naked) and other 'sensual' candles... Nothing a 6-year old does not see on TV... but their parents, they go to a church where even a candle-woman, if she's baring her shoulder is leading you into sin... not to mention they do not understand internet).



                    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

                    Thanks Claude, you raise a question, or a point, about SUPPORT.

                    Young married people often grow apart and find that as love wanes, so does support for our future dreams.

                    It is great, wonderful when people are in full support, and even if they don't actively support with participation, their support of you as a person remains.

                    And the thing is, about loved ones, FAMILY, is...if they are not Entrepreneurial in their nature, they may be the first ones to throw cold water on your dream, or question your sanity when you tell them you want to become an INTERNET MARKETER.

                    Friends, family and spouses who do NOT support you, may even ridicule your efforts are some of the biggest challenges we face.

                    If you have a support system, where they at least don't make fun of you, maybe not give you full support, but at least say go for it, it is a big deal.

                    But, one big mistake I've seen made over and over, is telling the world, even friends and families our intentions re: IM, is expecting support, instead of what often happens...ridicule.

                    Keep your cards close to the vest if you do NOT have positive support. Start ups in IM are especially delicate to begin with, no need to make them even more fragile by having friends/family waste your time and energies with naysaying.

                    I think this is where the Mind Forum comes in handy, to receive support from others who have taken the path and left footprints to follow.

                    Friends and family may have to be kept in the dark, until there is something to see, some results.

                    You're lucky if you have support, but, not having it isn't an excuse either, achievement is about meeting our personal expectations, not those of others.

                    GordonJ
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                    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                      I do understand there are people who want us under their thumbs, they are the ones we don't want to LAUGH AT us when we sit down to the piano to play.

                      Bullies, and those who act better than us. Working for jerks is one of the prime motivators people have to escape the rat race.

                      Maybe it is generational, maybe it is upbringing, I honestly don't know what it is that makes so many sensitive, and susceptible to the opinion of others.

                      So, a statement. NO one can take you down a peg. NO one can make you feel inferior. No one can make you feel anything, UNLESS, you allow it and accept it.

                      This is one of the points of the thread. Inspiration, motivation and empowerment work when they are self generated, rarely when someone else gives it to us. See, criticism and praise are judgements, different sides of the same sword.

                      Reject both. I offer a polite thanks, for either, although my inner dialogue might be filled with expletives for a brief moment before I move on. If you need plaques and trophies for accomplishment, and the emphasis is on NEED, because it is human to want praise, recognition and acknowledgement, but if you need it, then you are setting yourself up for their judgements.

                      One reason I started my own forum 23 years ago is someone who felt the same as I did, that many of those forums back then, were just little fiefdoms for the owner...and when I said, I HAVE NO COMPETITION, it was like setting off fireworks on the 4th of July in USA.

                      In IM, there are no rules, and truly, some of the most respected today, BROKE real laws and rules and were fined, punished by having their stuff seized, and hopefully are walking on a more truthful path today.

                      But other than violations of known laws, any one person gets to make up their own rules, including how much income is right for them.

                      IM gives many a part-time side hustle, moonlighting moolah, extra income without getting in the deep weeds, and that is fine and dandy if that is what THEY want.

                      On the other hand, when someone has been at it a decade or longer, without ANY results, not even meeting their own bare minimums, and continue to ask for help, having a long history of not taking it in the past...well, it is what it is, eh?

                      How many pegs are there? Can Bezos knock Zuckie down one or two? We saw KC knock the city of Cincy down a peg, and that only because of the mouthing off Cincy did before the game. In that case, it was good to see some knocked down a peg.

                      But online? At the WF? Can't happen unless it is accepted.

                      Maxwell Maltz in Psycho-Cybernetics gave the best identifying trait for this human flaw, self image. When ANYONE starts comparing themselves with someone else, there is going to be big differences. But when we compare ourselves to what we COULD be, our own potential, and we see we are not living up to that...well, I see plenty of Warriors knocking themselves down a peg, mainly by long term procrastination and failures to launch.

                      GordonJ




                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      Son studies French in high-school. Loves it, so he majors in French in College. Moves to France for a year-abroad program. Gets a BA in French, then signs up for graduate school. Gets a Master's degree, then applies to a PhD program in French lit.



                      Mother (6 years of schooling, cleans apartments for a living): But, honey, why does it take you so long to learn French? X's son did it in 2 years.


                      The same exists in IM.


                      And, then, there are the people who understand enough about IM but will still take you down a peg because you have not made /a month, which, they decree is the minimum you must make in order to not have IM be a hobby. (Regardless of YOUR needs).


                      You are, indeed, blessing yourself if you do not tell all and sundry that you're an entrepreneur online.


                      Dan Kennedy once said he had had a client who was getting sale through online ads... He was making lots of income. Still, his wife was not happy till she saw his ads in print. At a cost of $35k a year... which was a total loss as the ads produced no results. But the wife did believe he was a businessman, not a thief or gambler or in some other nefarious business.


                      I guess, if you're married to some such person, you cannot hide your income, must come up with an explanation. And, if the cheapest acceptable one is $35k a year, so be it.


                      On the other hand, if you can, keep it to yourself.


                      In my case, I have so many relatives who do not have a clue... I have a handful that make money online (but not the whole income they need)... and they keep that from the rest of the family (They sell candles in the shape of women (half-naked) and other 'sensual' candles... Nothing a 6-year old does not see on TV... but their parents, they go to a church where even a candle-woman, if she's baring her shoulder is leading you into sin... not to mention they do not understand internet).
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                    Banned
                    Hi GordonJ. : ) Just a quick comment:

                    Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

                    Keep your cards close to the vest if you do NOT have positive support. Start ups in IM are especially delicate to begin with, no need to make them even more fragile by having friends/family waste your time and energies with naysaying.

                    [...]
                    You're lucky if you have support, but, not having it isn't an excuse either, achievement is about meeting our personal expectations, not those of others.
                    Excellent point. Ultimately no one can "discourage" (etc.) an Apprentice Entrepreneur/Marketer without their permission: It's not circumstances or People that stop a Person from succeeding ... It's Themselves.

                    P.S.
                    Mod(s) I hope that post is on topic. Thanks.
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                    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                      Hi GordonJ. : ) Just a quick comment:
                      Excellent point. Ultimately no one can "discourage" (etc.) an Apprentice Entrepreneur/Marketer without their permission: It's not circumstances or People that stop a Person from succeeding ... It's Themselves.

                      P.S.
                      Mod(s) I hope that post is on topic. Thanks.
                      Does the etc. in your post include inspiration, motivation, empowerment too?

                      Discourage is the negative side, is it fair to say that Ultimately no one can really motivate you to success? I get that a little inspiration along the way, may be the drink that quenches a real thirst.

                      So, if we accept your on topic post (this time) premise, then you agree that any given person is their own worst enemy, and shoulder the responsibility for their successes and failures alike? Right?

                      There are times when someone offers assistance, which could include motivation, and inspiration too, which may trigger a change of behavior, and behavior is what we are really discussing, eh?

                      Behavior is mostly habitual, and routine. There are ways and means to change one's habits, and if those have been years of want/need and lack...or feelings of low self worth...there are mountains of information on how to change those things.

                      In the context of the WF Mind forum, about making money Online, the one behavior all success has exhibited is a fair exchange of value.

                      So, thanks for agreeing, that ultimately, my OP was right on.

                      GordonJ



                      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    I give up. I have removed my posts from this thread.

    I am at a loss. I should not have mentioned the Philippines. I made a mistake bringing it up. Because there are other countries I want to travel to and live in for months a time.

    The goal is to travel and live in other countries for a few months at a time where I can live comfortably for between 1500 and 2000 a month and make more than enough so I can save enough money to eventually build or buy the house I want.

    So some way to make money. I don't have the writing skills to do the information marketing thing. But there are other ways I can learn to create online marketing content. That generates income.

    I have achieved most of the the goals I have been working the last few years. Now to focus on how to earn the money I need ina way I enjoy.

    As much as my ability to to communicate with the written word has improved in the last few years. Im am unable to use the right words to please everyone's notions of how things should be said . The words that should be used .

    6 months ago when I put value and math in terms of money money. That was a money goal which Gordon and savage both said where wrong.

    I'm trying to figure out how to make money to have a comfortable life for myself the next thirty - 40 years as I don't expect to retire or there to be retirement as we have it today.

    Anyway thank you all for putting up with me as I have struggled to improve my ability to communicate in writing. But have money goals and no money goals and plenty of things I want to do that require money but I don't want to do or need to make money.

    I'm looking for a thing I can enjoy doing with part of my time that makes enough money and leaves me plenty of time to do all the things I want to enjoy doing that require time and money but I don't need money from.
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      We forum participants can only respond to what we see. A lot of time we ask for additional information, for clarification, some more details.

      I don't see anyone getting personal (if they cross that line, Bam goes the mods), and most responses are aimed at trying to help.

      So, you do what you need to do.

      As for making money, ONLINE, with the Internet, I will stand by this: Some think the WF has gone down hill. Some old Warriors have gone on to greener pastures.

      It is what it is. But it is still one of the BEST free sites online to learn about making money with Internet Marketing. There might be as much useful content here as anywhere else on a single site. And there are still people who make an effort to give and share their expertise with those who want to learn how to do it.

      If you can't find some solid, practical, actionable advice here, you probably aren't going to find it anywhere.

      As for being wrong, and I'd have to see the post, if it too hasn't been deleted where savidge4 and I said you were wrong. We both offer our opinions, and we have very different takes, just two of many voices at the WF who are here to help. Sometimes the best help is a dose of reality.

      And s4 and I represent opposite ends, he a serial Entrepreneur with many companies, businesses, employees, brick and mortar...a successful guy we are lucky to have here...and I a one man band, playing often off-key on a couple of instruments.

      And in between, just about every sort of marketer, salesperson, Entrepreneur one can think of, all here sharing what they know, and responding to what they see.

      So, if some work needs to be done on communication skills, that is an important realization, we all wish you a successful journey.

      But there is NO right or wrong way to do your life. And there isn't a perfect solution that works for everyone.

      Whatever it is you want to do, you'll find plenty of solid, well meaning, good hearted folks right here at this WF, to offer their takes, their opinions and of course, you and all other Warriors are free to take it or leave it.

      Keep on your successful path, and good luck to you.

      GordonJ





      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

      I give up. I have removed my posts from this thread.

      I am at a loss. I should not have mentioned the Philippines. I made a mistake bringing it up. Because there are other countries I want to travel to and live in for months a time.

      The goal is to travel and live in other countries for a few months at a time where I can live comfortably for between 1500 and 2000 a month and make more than enough so I can save enough money to eventually build or buy the house I want.

      So some way to make money. I don't have the writing skills to do the information marketing thing. But there are other ways I can learn to create online marketing content. That generates income.

      I have achieved most of the the goals I have been working the last few years. Now to focus on how to earn the money I need ina way I enjoy.

      As much as my ability to to communicate with the written word has improved in the last few years. Im am unable to use the right words to please everyone's notions of how things should be said . The words that should be used .

      6 months ago when I put value and math in terms of money money. That was a money goal which Gordon and savage both said where wrong.

      I'm trying to figure out how to make money to have a comfortable life for myself the next thirty - 40 years as I don't expect to retire or there to be retirement as we have it today.

      Anyway thank you all for putting up with me as I have struggled to improve my ability to communicate in writing. But have money goals and no money goals and plenty of things I want to do that require money but I don't want to do or need to make money.

      I'm looking for a thing I can enjoy doing with part of my time that makes enough money and leaves me plenty of time to do all the things I want to enjoy doing that require time and money but I don't need money from.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I give up. I have removed my posts from this thread.


    That's fine - they are your posts. It sometimes happens that we say more than we meant to or revealed more about ourselves than intended.


    However, when you do that, you can't come back and start posting in the same thread again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    It IS a cliche - an old and tired one that is often used as an excuse for 'failure to launch'. By all means....do what you love - and love what you do....but DO something along the way.



    ....and you missed the real points in Claude's post
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    A couple of thoughts I had while reading through this thread...

    I always have my earbuds in when I run in the mornings and considered it motivation...

    but actually, it is inspiration.

    Motivation is what comes from the outside...inspiration is what happens on the inside.

    If motivation doesn't cause inspiration then it is worthless.

    I talked before about sales meetings that were highly motivational...now I realize the highly motivational part is useless unless it causes inspiration.

    The two seem alike but are different.

    If someone is working towards a goal, motivation is good as long as it creates inspiration.

    Just my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Banned
      Interesting post max5ty.
      : )

      Just out of curiosity ― so I can really understand your premise ― how would you define "Motivation" and "Inspiration"? I had a quick search on Google and I think the "Inspiration" part applies more to be People doing something "Creative" (like Copywriting for example.) ... I could be wrong??

      A definition of "Motivation" I found is: "Being enthusiastic and determined to achieve success ..." [From Macmillan Directory]. Thoughts?
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

        Interesting post max5ty.
        : )

        Just out of curiosity ― so I can really understand your premise ― how would you define "Motivation" and "Inspiration"? I had a quick search on Google and I think the "Inspiration" part applies more to be People doing something "Creative" (like Copywriting for example.) ... I could be wrong??

        A definition of "Motivation" I found is: "Being enthusiastic and determined to achieve success ..." [From Macmillan Directory]. Thoughts?
        My Friend;

        I'm going to take a guess before Max answers.

        I think the main point isn't what the words mean. It's that your stimulus needs to come from inside for it to work at all. Outside motivations don't last.

        Like the word Enthusiasm (meaning God within). It's the idea that this is inside you, driving you forward.

        I hope I understand this correctly, because it clarified my thinking a little.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I think the main point isn't what the words mean. It's that your stimulus needs to come from inside for it to work at all. Outside motivations don't last.
          Yup. I agree Claude. Thanks. : )
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        • Profile picture of the author max5ty
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          My Friend;

          I'm going to take a guess before Max answers.

          I think the main point isn't what the words mean. It's that your stimulus needs to come from inside for it to work at all. Outside motivations don't last.

          Like the word Enthusiasm (meaning God within). It's the idea that this is inside you, driving you forward.

          I hope I understand this correctly, because it clarified my thinking a little.
          Thanks Claude for summarizing it so well...

          that's pretty much exactly what I was referring to.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    The comment I had made earlier about solving a problem...

    went back to the Halbert thing with the hamburger stand.

    What would you need to make it successful, and of course everyone said something and then he said all he wanted was a hungry crowd. Old analogy, but accurate.

    As the original post in this thread alluded to, people have been in internet marketing for years and years and have still achieved almost nothing.

    I've gone back through posts before...back years, and websites are no longer even up...they've vanished into the graveyards of the internet.

    My opinion is, if you're going to sell something, make it something people need to solve a problem. It's one of the oldest rules in marketing.

    We have probably all listened to sad stories of those who just can't make a go of what they're selling...in the end it's probably not surprising to most of us why that is when we look at what they're selling.

    Yes, there are viral products, but most of them were accidental. They weren't started to be money makers...then there's the others that were started by established companies that had a lot of money to pump into the advertising.

    I'm just thinking if you're going to start something it would be a good idea to find a problem and solve it...and the bigger the problem the more the profit...seems to me to be the idea that would be most profitable in the long run.

    Just my thoughts.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      The comment I had made earlier about solving a problem...

      went back to the Halbert thing with the hamburger stand.

      What would you need to make it successful, and of course everyone said something and then he said all he wanted was a hungry crowd. Old analogy, but accurate.
      Genius. And of course it's a cornerstone of marketing.

      I have another take on it. If you have a hamburger stand, what do you want?

      Of course a starving crowd. Once you hear "Starving crowed" it sounds obvious, doesn't it?

      But do you know what I want? I want a crowd of people who love hamburgers, and are used to eating hamburgers every meal.

      i want hamburger fans...who will tell all their friends about my hamburgers.

      A side story that may illustrate what I mean.

      When I sold vacuum cleaners in people's homes, we took trade ins. Their old vacuum cleaners. And I would wait until I had a room full of trade ins and then sell them by running ads in the newspaper.

      This was maybe 1985. I was still young and stupid, and had no concept of marketing or anything beyond my sales skills.

      But I kept records, Records that would later prove illuminating.

      Back then, there were two kinds of vacuum cleaners. The really cheap ones and the really expensive ones sold in people's homes. The expensive ones always had a warranty that lasted decades and were built to last as well.

      Anyway, I took a look in my back room at 100 trade in vacuums. 90% or more were the expensive in home selling models. Most were between 5 and 10 years old.

      I remember thinking it was a tad weird because only 10% or less of the people we presented our machine to had one of these really expensive brands. But that's who was buying.

      But back then my brain was unformed. I still didn't have the insight to realize that this meant that the majority of people who bought our (back then) $1,200 vacuum cleaner....already bought a different $1,200 vacuum cleaner from someone else.

      And of course 5 years after they bought from me, they were going to trade it in on a newer shinier model for more money.

      So I eventually just sought out people with these high end vacuums. And then I discovered that it didn't have to be a vacuum cleaner.

      Anyone that had bought something expensive from an in home salesperson...was about 90% likely to buy from me too. It transformed my business.

      So why did I bring this up?

      Some people buy because what you sell is a solution to their problem. Granted, many offers only apply to people who have a need, or a problem that the offer solves. If you need scuba diving equipment, nothing else will work in its place. And the list of solutions is very short.

      But for some offers, some people (a much larger group) buys because your offer satisfies an itch. Satisfies a habit, tradition, ritual, or compulsion.

      People bought Pet Rocks to be part of a tribe. To be able to tell their story to their friends...and to look trendy.

      Parents bought Cabbage Patch Dolls because kids were convinced that everyone else had one. And parents were convinced that there was a very limited supply.

      And people bought my outrageously overpriced vacuum cleaner because they were used to doing exactly that same thing. It was a habit. It was a ritual. They bought because they were conditioned to think they were supposed to buy.

      So if you sell hamburgers on the beach....what do you want?

      It could be a starving crowd.

      It could be a crowd of fat people that believe hamburgers are the new way to lose weight while looking trendy.

      It could be a crowd of people that are simply used to wanting hamburgers for every meal.

      And it could be a beach full of people that see a long line to your hamburger stand, and feel the desperate need to buy in bulk before the next guy gets there.

      And it could even be a beach full of kids that insist that their parents buy them 4 hamburgers from you because "All the other kids eat four hamburgers for lunch".

      And if we are smart, we can find people that fit several of those profiles at once.

      There. You have just reached the limit of everything I know. I need to take a nap now.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        There. You have just reached the limit of everything I know. I need to take a nap now.


        HA!. Good one Claude. Won't begrudge you a nap, but reaching your limit, that is indeed a hoot.

        I had to come back to this post, after doing a lot of thinking and searching because of this:
        But for some offers, some people (a much larger group) buys because your offer satisfies an itch. Satisfies a habit, tradition, ritual, or compulsion.

        So, I stole it. Sort of. I like the itch and relief for it. Then I came across this old saw: The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease. And I just witnessed this in a Facebook group where a member called out another one for not delivering on his offer. This particular group allows that, they hold nothing back. And the squeaky wheel did indeed get his grease, although there were several others, all with the same complaint, who did not and probably won't get satisfaction.

        And I thought of this post, and in borrowing it, with some adjustment, I say now, it is the way to riches...

        Squelch the Squeak.

        Maybe a splitting of hairs between this and the itch. In making our offers to the marketplace, we can look for the hungry (starving) crowd, we can offer to scratch the itch or provide a solution to it, or we can look for the human squeaks, squeals and squawks we hear as we travel the Internet.

        Listen closely.

        It is a NOISY place. Sort of like HORTON who hears a Who. A whole world exists of problems, thirst, hunger, itches and all yelling for answers.

        So, if you want (to any Warrior who isn't) to make money online...use one of these metaphors we have given you.

        Feed the starving crowd.
        Find the habit, compulsion, itch.
        Free them from their inner noise.

        Squelch their squeaks. And any metaphor will do, as long as YOU DO.

        Identify. Resonate. Resolve. Profit.

        GordonJ





        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Genius. And of course it's a cornerstone of marketing.

        I have another take on it. If you have a hamburger stand, what do you want?

        Of course a starving crowd. Once you hear "Starving crowed" it sounds obvious, doesn't it?

        But do you know what I want? I want a crowd of people who love hamburgers, and are used to eating hamburgers every meal.

        i want hamburger fans...who will tell all their friends about my hamburgers.

        A side story that may illustrate what I mean.

        When I sold vacuum cleaners in people's homes, we took trade ins. Their old vacuum cleaners. And I would wait until I had a room full of trade ins and then sell them by running ads in the newspaper.

        This was maybe 1985. I was still young and stupid, and had no concept of marketing or anything beyond my sales skills.

        But I kept records, Records that would later prove illuminating.

        Back then, there were two kinds of vacuum cleaners. The really cheap ones and the really expensive ones sold in people's homes. The expensive ones always had a warranty that lasted decades and were built to last as well.

        Anyway, I took a look in my back room at 100 trade in vacuums. 90% or more were the expensive in home selling models. Most were between 5 and 10 years old.

        I remember thinking it was a tad weird because only 10% or less of the people we presented our machine to had one of these really expensive brands. But that's who was buying.

        But back then my brain was unformed. I still didn't have the insight to realize that this meant that the majority of people who bought our (back then) $1,200 vacuum cleaner....already bought a different $1,200 vacuum cleaner from someone else.

        And of course 5 years after they bought from me, they were going to trade it in on a newer shinier model for more money.

        So I eventually just sought out people with these high end vacuums. And then I discovered that it didn't have to be a vacuum cleaner.

        Anyone that had bought something expensive from an in home salesperson...was about 90% likely to buy from me too. It transformed my business.

        So why did I bring this up?

        Some people buy because what you sell is a solution to their problem. Granted, many offers only apply to people who have a need, or a problem that the offer solves. If you need scuba diving equipment, nothing else will work in its place. And the list of solutions is very short.

        But for some offers, some people (a much larger group) buys because your offer satisfies an itch. Satisfies a habit, tradition, ritual, or compulsion.

        People bought Pet Rocks to be part of a tribe. To be able to tell their story to their friends...and to look trendy.

        Parents bought Cabbage Patch Dolls because kids were convinced that everyone else had one. And parents were convinced that there was a very limited supply.

        And people bought my outrageously overpriced vacuum cleaner because they were used to doing exactly that same thing. It was a habit. It was a ritual. They bought because they were conditioned to think they were supposed to buy.

        So if you sell hamburgers on the beach....what do you want?

        It could be a starving crowd.

        It could be a crowd of fat people that believe hamburgers are the new way to lose weight while looking trendy.

        It could be a crowd of people that are simply used to wanting hamburgers for every meal.

        And it could be a beach full of people that see a long line to your hamburger stand, and feel the desperate need to buy in bulk before the next guy gets there.

        And it could even be a beach full of kids that insist that their parents buy them 4 hamburgers from you because "All the other kids eat four hamburgers for lunch".

        And if we are smart, we can find people that fit several of those profiles at once.

        There. You have just reached the limit of everything I know. I need to take a nap now.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          [B]: The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease.
          My Friend;

          I can't help myself. When I first read these words, the very first thought I had was about a woman who used to complain every time she came in my store. I knew it wasn't just me, she did it everywhere. Nothing was adequate for her. Every price was an affront to her dignity.

          After several years, I actually grew kind of fond of her, knowing it was just the way she was...and she spent money in my store. I even joked with her a little about it.

          But then, one day...I don't remember why I was feeling particularly intolerant. she started complaining about my service.

          I stopped her and said :"My service is impeccable. That's why you come here."

          And then she said "Well, the squeaky wheel gets.." and I sharply said "Replaced".

          It was a reflex on my part. I immediately knew it was a mistake. But I stood there for a second, then smiled. And then she smiled too. And I said "Candice, the truth is you're one of our favorite customers". I thought she was going to cry.

          After that, she was a different person. I think she just wanted to be acknowledged.
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          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            I think she just wanted to be acknowledged.

            Claude, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I think this may be one of the most profound, albeit cryptic, pieces of advice you have given us.

            So many times, in a selling experience, as the customer, we get ignored. When a pro like you takes the time to ACKNOWLEDGE us, really, truly get in our shoes...then it is a WIN WIN for both parties.

            There are many ways and means, to do this, but at the heart of a good transaction, a sales person takes the time to acknowledge the prospect. It might be one of the simplest and yet, most effective methods there is.

            GordonJ

            P.S. The difference between Claude the Pro, and say Timmy the Amateur, is Timmy thinks about what he is going to get from the transaction, whereas the pro, thinks about what the customer gets. Slight but significant differences in mindset make for a huge gap in success.


            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            My Friend;

            I can't help myself. When I first read these words, the very first thought I had was about a woman who used to complain every time she came in my store. I knew it wasn't just me, she did it everywhere. Nothing was adequate for her. Every price was an affront to her dignity.

            After several years, I actually grew kind of fond of her, knowing it was just the way she was...and she spent money in my store. I even joked with her a little about it.

            But then, one day...I don't remember why I was feeling particularly intolerant. she started complaining about my service.

            I stopped her and said :"My service is impeccable. That's why you come here."

            And then she said "Well, the squeaky wheel gets.." and I sharply said "Replaced".

            It was a reflex on my part. I immediately knew it was a mistake. But I stood there for a second, then smiled. And then she smiled too. And I said "Candice, the truth is you're one of our favorite customers". I thought she was going to cry.

            After that, she was a different person. I think she just wanted to be acknowledged.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


              So many times, in a selling experience, as the customer, we get ignored.
              The biggest compliment you can pay someone is to really listen to them. Sure you want a sale. But actively listening (and not just thinking of the next thing to say), conveys you are looking out for them and their opinion matters to you.
              Asking questions and really listening to the answers...asking for their opinion....and complimenting any previous buying decision (these have to be done genuinely) almost guarantees that you generate a very strong desire to reciprocate in the customer.




              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post


              P.S. The difference between Claude the Pro, and say Timmy the Amateur, is Timmy thinks about what he is going to get from the transaction, whereas the pro, thinks about what the customer gets. Slight but significant differences in mindset make for a huge gap in success.
              The last few decades I sold, no matter whether it was in people's homes, offices, or in my store...

              The thought I always had was "What's the best thing I can do for these people?"

              A few times, it was telling them not to buy. Sometimes it was recommending a cheaper option...and most of the time it was by recommending that they buy what I suggested.

              All of this has to be done in a completely sincere manner, and it has to be the way you are thinking...not just the words you are saying. Observant customers can spot insincerity a mile off.

              It isn't until after they leave (or after I leave) that I think about the money.

              Is this all because Claude is a great guy? No. At first, it was because I found that this worked to increase my sales....and eventually, it just became the way I thought.

              But if it was just the way I thought, in the beginning, I would have made lots more money, far quicker.


              And this is also the kind of thing that is almost impossible to teach.

              By the way, thank you for the compliment.
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              • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                Thanks Claude, and to my OP point re: the mind forum and motivation, inspiration and empowerment...you say:

                "What's the best thing I can do for these people?"
                But if it was just the way I thought, in the beginning, I would have made lots more money, far quicker.

                It is a war.
                Mostly waged within one's mind, and we see it daily here, when one after another into the thousands want to make money online, and they ask how.

                I ask, (borrowing from Claude here), What is the best thing YOU CAN do for people?

                Just another way of saying get out of your ME, I, I want/need head (mindset) and all of those personal self improvement sayings, quotes and so called inspiration and just answer one simple question, or if unable to...

                DON'T start your IM until you can. What is the best thing YOU CAN do for people?

                If the answer is to quote some Empowerment Guru, regurgitate old cliches over and over for a decade...well, it speaks to itself.

                If inspiration is needed, get it from those that DO it, and have the history, lessons from the trenches, and share it here, but for those just starting out,

                What is the best thing YOU CAN do for people? Answer it...then DO IT.

                GordonJ






                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                The biggest compliment you can pay someone is to really listen to them. Sure you want a sale. But actively listening (and not just thinking of the next thing to say), conveys you are looking out for them and their opinion matters to you.
                Asking questions and really listening to the answers...asking for their opinion....and complimenting any previous buying decision (these have to be done genuinely) almost guarantees that you generate a very strong desire to reciprocate in the customer.
                The last few decades I sold, no matter whether it was in people's homes, offices, or in my store...

                The thought I always had was "What's the best thing I can do for these people?"

                A few times, it was telling them not to buy. Sometimes it was recommending a cheaper option...and most of the time it was by recommending that they buy what I suggested.

                All of this has to be done in a completely sincere manner, and it has to be the way you are thinking...not just the words you are saying. Observant customers can spot insincerity a mile off.

                It isn't until after they leave (or after I leave) that I think about the money.

                Is this all because Claude is a great guy? No. At first, it was because I found that this worked to increase my sales....and eventually, it just became the way I thought.

                But if it was just the way I thought, in the beginning, I would have made lots more money, far quicker.


                And this is also the kind of thing that is almost impossible to teach.

                By the way, thank you for the compliment.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                  Banned
                  Great point/Mindset GordonJ. Yeah I think it's all about "giving" rather than "taking". Personally my goal is to (eventually) make a "Contribution" and really do some good in the World.

                  We'll see what happens. : )
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Claude -

    There was a guy that had a hamburger stand that was doing good. Then one day a McDonalds went in up the street and his business sank.

    One day while the 26-year-old hamburger stand owner was sitting in his lonely hamburger stand, he looked across the street at the Taco Stand and decided to walk over and see what it was all about.

    Long story short...it was the first Taco place in the U.S. that sold hard tacos. After some time he got their recipe and opened his own place. The rest is history as we say...and is the story of Glen Bell and Taco Bell.

    He figured out the hungry crowd was also hungrier for more than just hamburgers.

    But something else interesting...

    the taco place where he got the idea...Mitla Cafe, is still in business and is still run by family...yet Glen took the same idea worldwide. Why is it one idea sits for decades without any progress, and the same idea can be used by someone else to build an empire?

    Maybe some people down deep don't really want success? Maybe they're afraid of success?

    Goes back to the original post about people being in internet marketing for years with little success...while others are doing great.

    A lot to think about.
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      You forgot the McDonald's story: the McDonalds had a couple of stores and Ray Krock had none but had an idea.


      This story would say that you need an idea and the gumption to pursue it. Or the imagination to see it how your idea would look as implemented.





      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Claude -

      There was a guy that had a hamburger stand that was doing good. Then one day a McDonalds went in up the street and his business sank.

      One day while the 26-year-old hamburger stand owner was sitting in his lonely hamburger stand, he looked across the street at the Taco Stand and decided to walk over and see what it was all about.

      Long story short...it was the first Taco place in the U.S. that sold hard tacos. After some time he got their recipe and opened his own place. The rest is history as we say...and is the story of Glen Bell and Taco Bell.

      He figured out the hungry crowd was also hungrier for more than just hamburgers.

      But something else interesting...

      the taco place where he got the idea...Mitla Cafe, is still in business and is still run by family...yet Glen took the same idea worldwide. Why is it one idea sits for decades without any progress, and the same idea can be used by someone else to build an empire?

      Maybe some people down deep don't really want success? Maybe they're afraid of success?

      Goes back to the original post about people being in internet marketing for years with little success...while others are doing great.

      A lot to think about.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Fred Deluca, SUBWAY guy, with 1k and two failures, ready to call it quits...then SUCCESS.

        A friend had a chance to talk to Fred and asked him about his failures. Fred was actually excited someone had asked him and spent a lot of time with his answer.

        What Fred revealed was; he too was blinded by his success, and thought he had the Midas Touch. Well, not so much for several Enterprises including a chain of barbershops, and other things. And the kicker, he NEVER invested his own money in any of the ventures after Subway.

        He felt bad for those who did, based on him, his success and reputation, but unlike Huizenga, lightening never struck again. Of course Wayne Z, had 3, including Auto Nation under his belt too.

        About gumption and goals, lets look at a flip side. Fred PAPA Felice had a pizza shop in same location for 40 years, and that was 20 years AFTER being offered millions for his recipes, name and brand. Big Daddy said no.

        Some would say he lacked the gumption to go big.
        Some might argue he didn't want their idea of success.

        But he gave it a lot of thought and I believe he might have been the happiest 600+ pound man who was debt free, owned his house, car and business without any strings attached to it, and played poker every week in the back room.

        What would a million dollars (circa 1970) do for him? Or what stress would a Papa John's type business (how did that guy get away selling that crap and calling it Pizza for so long???) ...

        Point being...IM offers a side hustle gig, for extra dough, or a full time income as a job replacement all the way up to BIG business.

        Room for everyone to do as they please, with the exception, come to the WF for decades, ask the same questions, having nothing to show for their time, and whine about inspiration, motivation, and seeking someone to empower them.

        There are also a lot of small success stories out there, folk doing what they want and like to do for decades and the good news for us is, we don't have to deal with them here at WF.

        GordonJ




        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        You forgot the McDonald's story: the McDonalds had a couple of stores and Ray Krock had none but had an idea.


        This story would say that you need an idea and the gumption to pursue it. Or the imagination to see it how your idea would look as implemented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Notwithstandin' the imagry fiesta of gals who came in Claude's store, I jus' wanna hit on the acknowledgement deal gowin' down here.

    Bcs acknowledgement is the precursor to any kinda dialog.

    The wish to speak an' the wish to be heard prolly generated so many of the miracyools upon which we depend daily.

    An, yeah -- that incloods bras.

    Acknowledgement is the language of bein' here steada naht bein' here -- an' it is a myootyool gain areah.

    (Scythe wieldahs would wanna point out how the disenfranchised are the most likely to be abused by the manipulative here, an' prolly they right.)

    We cain't evah experience nuthin' like nowan else, such is the brute natchyoore of our mortal nervous system.

    But we can touch up on the basis of shared stuffs.

    Where do the same bells chime an' the very air propel us toward magnitoods?

    There is a + sign between all hooman interactions before there is a minus.

    So you gotta cultivate the former an' smooth out the lattah.

    I speakin' genrl here, but it also applies to marketin' an' copy an' stuff.

    Division is a dish best served unacknowljd.
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Bcs acknowledgement is the precursor to any kinda dialog.

      Thanks PrincessB,

      Precursor. Cialdini called it PRESUASION. IM calls it presell. It comes BEFORE.

      And even before ACKNOWLEDGEMENT (ACK), there is preparation for when the ACK is needed.

      I note you said dialog, not monologue. Which is what many sales people give us, a non funny, irritating, annoying stand up routine of some rote pitter patter from a script. Yapping AT us, not having a dialog because they do NOT acknowledge us first.

      Today, we see a lot of loud, shouting, melt-down MONOlogues and not much DIalog, especially in politics and news.

      In good copy, the trope is: I was where you are at now. I did this, you can too, and get where I am now. Or something to that effect. Call it a story, heroes journey, whatever, it is all about ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.

      I get you. I hear you. I feel you. And, now, hear me: HERE is your solution.

      We see it everyday here at WF, newbie wanting to make their share. Always I, me, without ack of their customer.

      It is also, the dog whistle of self improvement and motivation.

      The whole, I see you, I hear you, I feel you....NOW (the pitch/solution/exchange of value$$$$).
      And hopefully, it is mutual gain. Once in awhile, it actually is.

      So, if any Warrior needs to be motivated and inspired to help them make more money from their IM, the PrincessB observation is a great starting point...

      HOW do you acknowledge your prospect, and I will once again hammer the point, if you have that PRE IM efforts, your dependence on the crutch of motivation/inspiration isn't needed.

      ACK, powerful stuff.

      GordonJ









      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Notwithstandin' the imagry fiesta of gals who came in Claude's store, I jus' wanna hit on the acknowledgement deal gowin' down here.

      Bcs acknowledgement is the precursor to any kinda dialog.

      The wish to speak an' the wish to be heard prolly generated so many of the miracyools upon which we depend daily.

      An, yeah -- that incloods bras.

      Acknowledgement is the language of bein' here steada naht bein' here -- an' it is a myootyool gain areah.

      (Scythe wieldahs would wanna point out how the disenfranchised are the most likely to be abused by the manipulative here, an' prolly they right.)

      We cain't evah experience nuthin' like nowan else, such is the brute natchyoore of our mortal nervous system.

      But we can touch up on the basis of shared stuffs.

      Where do the same bells chime an' the very air propel us toward magnitoods?

      There is a + sign between all hooman interactions before there is a minus.

      So you gotta cultivate the former an' smooth out the lattah.

      I speakin' genrl here, but it also applies to marketin' an' copy an' stuff.

      Division is a dish best served unacknowljd.
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      • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
        Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

        Bcs acknowledgement is the precursor to any kinda dialog.
        I note you said dialog, not monologue. Which is what many sales people give us, a non funny, irritating, annoying stand up routine of some rote pitter patter from a script. Yapping AT us, not having a dialog because they do NOT acknowledge us first.

        GordonJ
        Guess we directin' all possible effuse to sum purpose against the backdrahp of an unrelentingly unforgivin' Caahsmaahs.

        Point is ... where is the POINT in this yummyspace between vacuum an' eternity wherein nuthin' means evrythin' to sumone?

        Bcs yanno the Zen forest hoomanity zample:

        Sumthin' bout trees fallin' ovah an' whethah you can hear 'em or naht.

        Point is, attention is yr 24/7 -- less'n you bulldozed by an actschwl bulldozah (or its non-metaphorical equivalent, in which case plz make sure your toothbrush is safe bcs I jus' discovahed mine AIN'T).

        So our moments of coalescence (dialog) are kinda sweet, yanno.

        Plus also, proclamayschwanaaaaal dictatahships are best avoided by most people ain't actschwlly the dictatah.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you don't know you in trouble.

        When yr interior monologue suppresses all othah voices, you know you in trouble.

        7 chides for infinite mothahs!

        You cain't nevah pour perfection from a cup.

        Butchya can always trust there are people wanna talk to ya 'bout the possibility.

        (Less'n you don't trust there are people othah than yusself deserve an opinion, which kinda propels you toward a self-fulfullin' hellhole, I guess -- less'n you checked Wiki to be sure.)
        Signature

        Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author Moodesburn1977
    This is a insightful post some of the information i wasnt aware of, i dont think the success of internet marketing is following a stragegy, or a blue print as you called it.

    i think the correct training how to have a online business correctly, i know there is many tools needed such as auto responder, getting traffic and a good email follow up system. getting emails in inbox etc.

    for me is when you know your customer, find out their needs and struggled and always strive to give some sort of value and that you truly care and want to help them reach thier goals, and they will thank you, just like i will do now thank for sharing this post today.
    Signature

    Lets build a online business by giving value and learning how to build a email list
    https://davidmitchell1977.systeme.io/givevalueonwarrior

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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      I can't or won't argue the point about giving value in exchange for some moolah, it has been my point here for 20+ years.

      What I have found to be lacking with IM, are some good assessment tools for would be Entrepreneurs. We have many for personality and career assessment possibilities, but I want one for new IMer. So, I'm working on it, knowing it may never ever see the light of day.

      But what I think is needed: a test. Where are you, what do you know, what DON'T you know. Probably 150 question type thing, what is the difference between Net Profit and Gross profit? Just basic business stuff. Break even point and lifetime value formulas.

      Gross profit per prospect. etc., etc. Basics. This along with a career assessment, maybe a couple of them.

      Goals. BUSINESS MODEL to follow.

      PLAN OF ACTION.

      All things PRE launch, all things that 98% don't do...if they were done, it might dramatically increase the success rate and lower by years the amount of time it takes to reach one's goals.

      And of course, the more value you have to offer, the faster things move.

      GordonJ





      Originally Posted by Moodesburn1977 View Post

      This is a insightful post some of the information i wasnt aware of, i dont think the success of internet marketing is following a stragegy, or a blue print as you called it.

      i think the correct training how to have a online business correctly, i know there is many tools needed such as auto responder, getting traffic and a good email follow up system. getting emails in inbox etc.

      for me is when you know your customer, find out their needs and struggled and always strive to give some sort of value and that you truly care and want to help them reach thier goals, and they will thank you, just like i will do now thank for sharing this post today.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11747616].message }}
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