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are we going too far?

by Kay King
40 replies
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A 19 yr old arrested at an airport and charged with attempting to go to Syria and join ISIS. He's being charge with trying to provide "support to a terrorist organization" but what would a 19 yr old have to 'provide"?

When I did a google search I found many stories about US citizens stopped from going overseas and stories about people that are being watched to be sure they don't try to do the same.

Can't wrap my brain around this story.

When we did we begin preventing US citizens from leaving this country?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to let people leave and cancel visas so they can't return without special permission and full investigation? If we force ISIS supporters to remain in the US - is that truly in our best interests?
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    Wouldn't it be a better idea to let people leave and cancel visas so they can't return without special permission and full investigation?
    People are just starting to discuss exactly this issue here, too.

    There's an "international law problem", in the case of the ones with British passports (and that's quite a lot of these people, apparently!) in that it would contravene international law not to let them back in to the UK. I think. "The government is currently taking legal advice about it" but has announced its intention to do something about it, either in the form of not letting them go (difficult) or not letting them back in (if they can do that, under international and European Union law). They may have to pass new laws about it, and even then I think they might be challenged by "pressure-groups" in the European courts.

    It all rather plays into the hands of those wishing the UK to withdraw from the European Union.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      People are just starting to discuss exactly this issue here, too.
      It's already been discussed here. Any Australians who leave to join ISIS have their passports cancelled.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
    Feds: Teen Arrested at O

    Searched and found the story
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    A 19 yr old arrested at an airport and charged with attempting to go to Syria and join ISIS. He's being charge with trying to provide "support to a terrorist organization" but what would a 19 yr old have to 'provide"?
    His service.

    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    If we force ISIS supporters to remain in the US - is that truly in our best interests?
    Yes, if they are in prison.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      I can see both sides.

      I kind of side with the fact that these people like this 19 year old can be extraordinarily dangerous.

      I mean in Palestine and Pakistan there have been cases where suicide bombers killing hundreds of people at once have been teenagers and younger

      I say if you have clearly demonstrated an alliance with ISIS in a potentially deadly way you should be in prison.period. End of story.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I remember being shocked years ago when some people I knew told me they couldn't leave their country without specific permissions granted. To me, I lived in a free country where citizens could come and go as they pleased. Yes, you needed a passport and usually a visa - but you didn't need to inform your govt of what you were doing.

        I guess that's why this shocked me a little. Can you keep people in prison because of what they believed or what they "might" do or "planned" to do? Do we change anything if we tell a teen he "can't go"? Would going to a desert to fight, sweat and survive on little food or sleep end up being the great adventure he expected?

        We let US citizens fight in the Israeli army and that doesn't help the view of the US in the Muslim world. We are not at war with ISIS - they are not attacking us though we are attacking them.

        Do we close the door and keep them here - or shut the gate behind them and let them find their destiny somewhere else? I don't know.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          We are not at war with ISIS - they are not attacking us though we are attacking them.
          They are kidnapping Americans, holding them to try to blackmail us and then beheading them. I would say that is attacking us. I disagree that we aren't at war with them.
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          • Profile picture of the author HN
            Banned
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            They are kidnapping Americans, holding them to try to blackmail us and then beheading them. I would say that is attacking us. I disagree that we aren't at war with them.
            I am learning so much from this forum. People are willing to believe anything.


            I can understand why they told us lies about Iraq's chemical weapons back then and why are these videos emerging. But why would someone try to prove that they are fake? For fame? Or do they also have an agenda?
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by HN View Post

              I am learning so much from this forum. People who are willing to believe anything.
              Beheading truther eh? Too much.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Yes, if they are in prison.

      Damn I hate to agree with you on political matters (or is this religion?).

      But I do this time. Get these people out of circulation any way it can be done so they don't kill anyone. Period.
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I didn't realize there were laws against it - I was questoning is as a 'right' to come and go as you please but makes sense now.

        He's 19 - put him in prison for 15 years and what will he be at 34 when he gets out? Will he be over his obsession - or better able to raise havoc?
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I didn't realize there were laws against it - I was questoning is as a 'right' to come and go as you please but makes sense now.

          He's 19 - put him in prison for 15 years and what will he be at 34 when he gets out? Will he be over his obsession - or better able to raise havoc?
          There is a law MANDATING something like a 40 year PRISON SENTENCE for this! But it hasn't been the sentence given for over 40 years! So YEAH, there are laws against it! Germans and asians, and people merely THOUGHT to be, were locked up, etc... to AVOID such acts.

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

        Wouldn't that be the perfect environment for them to recruit and convert new radicals?
        How many recruits has Charles Manson got in San Quintin? Or how many recruits have those in Gitmo got in the last 12 years?
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        • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          How many recruits has Charles Manson got in San Quintin?
          He's quite popular, Tim.

          https://www.google.com/search?q=char...on+merchandise

          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Or how many recruits have those in Gitmo got in the last 12 years?
          We may never know. If any, too many.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

            He's quite popular, Tim.
            Smh. Not surprising though, unfortunately. Good grief. I've seen women say they were attracted to serial murderers and then marry one.
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            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              I've seen women say they were attracted to serial murderers and then marry one.
              Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, still gets a lot of "fan mail" from women.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    You can't support, attempt to support, or conspire to support a known terrorist organization as per US law.

    Here is the full 11 page criminal complaint against Mohammed Hamzah Khan.

    http://personal.crocodoc.com/ON4Ly4U

    Here is U.S. Code § 2339B (Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations)

    (a) Prohibited Activities.—
    (1) Unlawful conduct.— Whoever knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life. To violate this paragraph, a person must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization (as defined in subsection (g)(6)), that the organization has engaged or engages in terrorist activity (as defined in section 212(a)(3)(B) of the Immigration and Nationality Act), or that the organization has engaged or engages in terrorism (as defined in section 140(d)(2) of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989).

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2339B
    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      Don,

      I think you're forgetting something.
      Fixed that for now. Will see how it goes.


      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      Don,

      I think you're forgetting something.
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      Her loss. Cheers.

      -don
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      You can't support or attempt to support a known terrorist organization as per US law.

      Here is the full 11 page criminal complaint against Mohammed Hamzah Khan.

      Hamza Khan complaint final.pdf | Crocodoc

      Here is U.S. Code § 2339B (Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations)

      Cheers

      -don
      Thanks. Got it. I see nothing wrong with providing material support to terrorists being illegal.

      (a) Prohibited Activities.--
      (1) Unlawful conduct.-- Whoever knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life. To violate this paragraph, a person must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization (as defined in subsection (g)(6)), that the organization has engaged or engages in terrorist activity (as defined in section 212(a)(3)(B) of the Immigration and Nationality Act), or that the organization has engaged or engages in terrorism (as defined in section 140(d)(2) of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989).
      (d) Extraterritorial Jurisdiction.--
      (1) In general.-- There is jurisdiction over an offense under subsection (a) if--
      (A) an offender is a national of the United States (as defined in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22))) or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States (as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(20)));
      (B) an offender is a stateless person whose habitual residence is in the United States;
      (C) after the conduct required for the offense occurs an offender is brought into or found in the United States, even if the conduct required for the offense occurs outside the United States;
      (D) the offense occurs in whole or in part within the United States;
      (E) the offense occurs in or affects interstate or foreign commerce; or
      (F) an offender aids or abets any person over whom jurisdiction exists under this paragraph in committing an offense under subsection (a) or conspires with any person over whom jurisdiction exists under this paragraph to commit an offense under subsection (a).
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Thanks. Got it. I see nothing wrong with providing material support to terrorists being illegal.
        Me either. Cheers

        -don
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      I'm not sure why our President hasn't officially tried to declare war on ISIS.
      First of all, ISIS isn't a country and Congress declares war anyways. Second of all, the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force was open ended and gave broad powers to the President to fight terrorism. If Congress wants to limit those powers they can repeal the AUMF, but of course they won't do that.
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      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        First of all, ISIS isn't a country and Congress declares war anyways. Second of all, the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force was open ended and gave broad powers to the President to fight terrorism. If Congress wants to limit those powers they can repeal the AUMF, but of course they won't do that.

        Actually it wasn't open ended. Yes the timeline was open-ended, but the resolution specifically states "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States." referring to the al Qaeda of the 9-11 attacks. And according to the President, we have already decimated al Qaeda. - So either he was horribly uninformed and/or mistaken - Or he needs to make a new and separate declaration.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          ISIS was a part of Al Qaeda. Gary, who is the enemy in your mind: al qaeda and Isis or our President? I can't tell with you. Plus, you need to look up the definition of decimate and also the actual quote which was about the leadership of Al Qaeda. The Pres never said they were defeated.
          Originally Posted by garyv View Post

          Actually it wasn't open ended. Yes the timeline was open-ended, but the resolution specifically states "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States." referring to the al Qaeda of the 9-11 attacks. And according to the President, we have already decimated al Qaeda. - So either he was horribly uninformed and/or mistaken - Or he needs to make a new and separate declaration.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    He wasn't just attempting to leave here and go to Syria. He had a contact to get him to ISIS. He had been recruited basically (allegedly). So it's against the law to provide "material support" to a terrorist organization, and that is what he was attempting to do.

    Chicago man charged with attempt to join Islamic State

    A criminal complaint alleges Khan, who appeared in court Monday, intended to travel by bus to a transit point where he would meet an Islamic State contact who would get him into Syria.

    Khan, a U.S. citizen from the southwest Chicago suburb of Bolingbrook, is charged with attempting to provide material support to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, which is also known as ISIL and ISIS, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday in U.S. District Court in Chicago.

    Federal prosecutor Matthew Hiller did not say during Khan's initial court appearance how authorities were tipped off about Khan's intentions.

    Federal agents, who searched the home where Khan lived with his parents and siblings, found several handwritten documents expressing support for Islamic State, FBI Special Agent Dana McNeal said in an affidavit filed in court Monday. One notebook appeared to contain a "to do" list with items including purchasing a $4,000 ticket to Istanbul and having cash for a hotel in Istanbul and a bus ride to cities near the Syrian border.

    Agents said they also recovered a letter to his parents explaining his travel and asking that they not contact authorities. In a car used by Khan but owned by his father, agents said they found a notebook with words and symbols referring to ISIL.

    After explaining his reasons for traveling to Syria, including his distress at having to pay taxes that would support the killing of his "Muslim brothers and sisters," Khan invited his family "to join me in the Islamic State," the criminal complaint said.

    FBI agents who questioned Khan at the airport said he acknowledged making a contact online with a person, unnamed in the complaint, who gave him the name of a contact who was to take him to ISIS after he arrived in Turkey. Khan told FBI agents he planned to assist ISIS in some type of public service, a police force, humanitarian work, or a combat role, the affidavit said.

    Khan will appear again in court on Thursday to determine whether he will be held in jail or allowed out on bail.

    If convicted, Khan could be sentenced to 15 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @ Suzanne

    I posted a link to the 11 page criminal complaint above along with a link to U.S. Code § 2339B which he allegedly violated.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9577218

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      @ Suzanne

      I posted a link to the entire 11 page criminal complaint above along with a link to U.S. Code § 2339B which he allegedly violated.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9577218

      Cheers

      -don
      Don,

      I think you're forgetting something.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

        Don,

        I think you're forgetting something.
        Her loss. Cheers.

        -don
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Tim,

    I HATE agreeing with you and I hate agreeing with HN. HN DOES have a point. The ukranian video with the woman saying "I am a ukranian", was PROPAGANDA! It was created by an AMERICAN company in the US that specializes in propaganda, and they used STOCK footage to make it look worse, etc... That is fact. MANY say the healthcare.gov website was INTENTIONALLY made to fail. There IS a history of it, nobody cared, and they did the illogical things that would fit that claim, so I am thinking they are right. Rather than give those IDIOTS any more fame, let's call it the BE INCOMPETENT and say "WELL, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, if you don't have a plan I like, I will drag you through the mud claiming you don't care about this." strategy!

    So WHO KNOWS!?!?!?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    IANAL, but it seems to me the law says (paraphrasing) "provides, attempts to provide, or conspires to provide".

    We know he didn't do the first two, but does making travel plans classify as "conspiring"? It may, that's a legitimate question.

    I think it's getting close to 1984 thought-police territory.

    On the other hand, if he left the country and picked up a rifle or cookstove or anything else in support of ISIS, I have no problem with him being the subject of a sniper or drone exercise.
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  • Profile picture of the author NickDaley
    People who are changing minds on young generation and making them to go in such kind of organisation which are threat to humanity should be strictly punished. I think every country in this world should come together to end such organisation which are just killing people doing great work.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Damn I hate to agree with you on political matters (or is this religion?).

      But I do this time. Get these people out of circulation any way it can be done so they don't kill anyone. Period.
      Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

      Wouldn't that be the perfect environment for them to recruit and convert new radicals?

      Can't keep them on the street, but can't place them in the general population either. Let them go, and get them out of the country. Let them form a nation, and all of them that want to be there can go there. Better to deal with a nation of radicals than try to suppress radicalism in your own backyard. When has that ever worked out in world history anywhere? The more you try to suppress a movement the more powerful and attractive it becomes.
      Originally Posted by NickDaley View Post

      People who are changing minds on young generation and making them to go in such kind of organisation which are threat to humanity should be strictly punished. I think every country in this world should come together to end such organisation which are just killing people doing great work.
      Yes, IS, is obviously going for young males, because they will fall or believe in this crap!

      Or they will go for the having sex with 50 black eyed attractive women after the authorities, are scraping what is left of them off the building, or military base!

      Seems to be a common con-artist trick, use love or sex to brainwash or make someone believe in whatever you want!

      It unfortunately works well!

      Of course these things, fail to mention the civilians, you knocked off in the process!


      I think they will have something to say about you splattering them over the sidewalk, when you all get up there!



      PS this also works with Political partys, (sorry mods) trying to get into power, and relying on an emotional response from just registered, naive voters!
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        Yes, IS, is obviously going for young males, because they will fall or believe in this crap!

        Or they will go for the having sex with 50 black eyed attractive women after the authorities, are scraping what is left of them off the building, or military base!

        Seems to be a common con-artist trick, use love or sex to brainwash or make someone believe in whatever you want!

        It unfortunately works well!

        Of course these things, fail to mention the civilians, you knocked off in the process!


        I think they will have something to say about you splattering them over the sidewalk, when you all get up there!



        PS this also works with Political partys, (sorry mods) trying to get into power, and relying on an emotional response from just registered, naive voters!
        Seems a lot of women are joining also.
        Schoolgirl jihadis: the female Islamists leaving home to join Isis fighters | World news | The Guardian
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Seems a lot of women are joining also.
          Schoolgirl jihadis: the female Islamists leaving home to join Isis fighters | World news | The Guardian
          Oh, l stand corrected, l wonder what crap they get promised by blowing themselves up?

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          • Profile picture of the author HN
            Banned
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Oh, l stand corrected, l wonder what crap they get promised by blowing themselves up?
            My friend told, that a boy who failed to blow himself up was captured and he told they promised him a bicycle after he completes his mission. It's unclear whether he realized that he's going to die or he believed that he'll get that bike in the heaven.

            Conclusion -> we should flood the middle east with bicycles.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Oh, l stand corrected, l wonder what crap they get promised by blowing themselves up?
            I'm baffled by it myself.

            I just came across this article that has a lot of truth in it.
            The reason I say that is a few years ago a person from Yemen spoke before our congress on the drone strikes in his country.
            He said at that time that with those strikes the US has done something the Taliban couldn't, turned the people of Yemen against America.
            Here's a quote from the article I just read.
            "What possible advantage is there to Isil [Isis] of bringing us into the campaign? Answer: to unite the Muslim world against the Christian world. We played into their hands. We've done what they wanted us to do."Isis is turning us all into its recruiting sergeants | Owen Jones | Comment is free | The Guardian
            We call them terrorist, but what do you think the people in those countries we're bombing call us?
            When an unmanned drone takes out someones family do you think the survivors applaud us for our actions?
            Bottom line weather people want to hear it or not, we are responsible for creating these groups. Our actions in the Middle East for the last 60 years or so are biting us in the ass and moving up to our head. The more bombs and troops we send over there the worse we make it.
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              I'm baffled by it myself.

              I just came across this article that has a lot of truth in it.
              The reason I say that is a few years ago a person from Yemen spoke before our congress on the drone strikes in his country.
              He said at that time that with those strikes the US has done something the Taliban couldn't, turned the people of Yemen against America.
              Here's a quote from the article I just read.

              We call them terrorist, but what do you think the people in those countries we're bombing call us?
              When an unmanned drone takes out someones family do you think the survivors applaud us for our actions?
              Bottom line weather people want to hear it or not, we are responsible for creating these groups. Our actions in the Middle East for the last 60 years or so are biting us in the ass and moving up to our head. The more bombs and troops we send over there the worse we make it.
              Yes, l was thinking about that as well recently; apparently roughly 70% of Aussies think that we should help out with Clubbering ISIS, and about 16% are undecided.


              I am probably in the undecided group, as violence usually fuels violence.

              Our prime minister, goes on saying, "go about your business, and we will do everything we can to protect you", but bottom line is that is a pretty tough thing to do.

              Terrorists only need to recruit some dumb teenagers, promise ?, and tell them to go blow themselves up on mass, in public places. It could all be arranged through the post, to cut down on being caught, or through a third party, etc.

              But if we do nothing then a few more social workers or soldiers will lose their heads, or familys, and if we do something then first world economies will get clobbered1

              Tricky situation!

              I was reading about the ordnance they use with the Super Nornets, (our ones) basically they can use, satellite nav, to pinpoint a target, then just launch the missile and forget about it, well film the whatever getting blown up or let a drone to it, then move in.

              Impressive weapons, but not foolproof!

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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                But if we do nothing then a few more social workers or soldiers will lose their heads, or familys, and if we do something then first world economies will get clobbered1
                It's the doing something that is causing the problems. This goes back to the 40's and 50's, in some regions even further.
                I hate these "how would you feel" type of questions, but I think in this case they could add a little perspective.
                Imagine if your countries government was for the people and then another country thousands of miles away backed a person in a coup to overthrow that govt. to steal your natural resources, how would you feel about that country a thousand miles away?
                How would you feel if you lived in a country where Christians, Muslims, and Jews, lived together in peace as friends and then a country thousands of miles away came it and disbanded that govt. putting the area in chaos showing preference to one group over the other two?
                How would you feel if you where a religious sect being persecuted in your region where you have lived for 1,000's of years. Then a foreign country convinces you to attack your oppressors and says they will have your back only to disappear when you start the fight.
                How would you feel if a country was bombing your area because a so called terrorist group beheaded a few people and you learned that one of it's allies has beheaded more people in one month then the terrorist group has since their existence? The you learn the real reason behind the bombings is because the country that beheads it's citizens on a regular basis wants to run a natural gas pipeline right through the middle of your country for it's own profits?
                Who are the real terrorist in the Middle East? ISIS or the US and their 'allies'.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Read this article yesterday about a teacher who joined ISIS and fled the group.

          Exclusive: Confessions of a female ISIS member - CNN.com

          She found herself drawn to the eloquence of a Tunisian whom she met online. Taken with his manners, she grew to trust him over time and he gradually lured her into the Islamic State, she said. He assured her that the group was not what people thought, that it was not a terrorist organization.

          .....

          Even more personally, she witnessed ISIS' brand of violence reserved for women. The brigade shared its building with a man who specialized in marriage for ISIS fighters.

          "He was one of the worst people," she said of the man tasked with finding wives for both local and foreign fighters.

          "The foreign fighters are very brutal with women, even the ones they marry," she said. "There were cases where the wife had to be taken to the emergency ward because of the violence, the sexual violence."

          Khadija saw a future she did not want.

          With her commander pressuring her to submit to marriage, Khadija decided she needed to leave the brigade.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Ross
    ISIS treat women and children very brutally, read this article.


    ISIS’s Brutality Toward Women and Girls–and How to Help the Victims - Washington Wire - WSJ
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