When the U.S. Dollar finally crashes....

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would it have been a good idea to put some of your cash in Bitcoin? Would/could the government stop its use?

I know very little about Bitcoin and it's risks and advantages.


Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author frankhill
      Originally Posted by blueclcl View Post

      The US $ is going to crash?

      What makes you think that?

      I don't know when...next month....5 years..... longer?

      The U.S. is pushing 18 Trillion dollars in debt... in my opinion THAT cannot go on indefinitely. It is just a matter of when.

      U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by frankhill View Post

        I don't know when...next month....5 years..... longer?

        The U.S. is pushing 18 Trillion dollars in debt... in my opinion THAT cannot go on indefinitely. It is just a matter of when.

        U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
        Actually, if you understand our money system - that's all it can do is incur increasing levels of debt. The debt is no more real than the money. They KNEW that when they installed the FED on us. That is why the debt has an expiration date. If people understood that fact, they'd quit worrying about a fabricated issue and just terminate the FED. The debt goes with them.
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        Sal
        When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
        Beyond the Path

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        • Profile picture of the author frankhill
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          If people understood that fact, they'd quit worrying about a fabricated issue and just terminated the FED. The debt goes with them.
          HeySal

          Maybe I am taking you too literally. Please explain:

          1. What is the fabricated issue?
          2. If we abolished the Fed tomorrow, what would become of our present debt, and why would our politicians not continue borrowing?

          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by frankhill View Post

            HeySal

            Maybe I am taking you too literally. Please explain:

            1. What is the fabricated issue?
            2. If we abolished the Fed tomorrow, what would become of our present debt, and why would our politicians not continue borrowing?

            Frank
            We keep borrowing because the FED is hooked to World Bank, which owns all but around 7 countries now. WB literally owns the world right now.

            The fabricated issue? Our whole economic system. It's called FIAT and to explain it takes a lot of economics courses in fiat money and the set up that we are under.

            The only thing the system can do is create debt (which enslaves any country in the money system) is because they charge x for each dollar they print, and there's also interest on it. The problem is that the money for the printing and interest does not exist. They have to print it....which incurs more debt. It's a slave system of finance. Everyone who's tried to expose the FED and get rid of global ownership via fiat currency, has been killed.

            30 years ago when I tried to tell people the FED is a bank and not Gov - I was called a tinfoil wrapped lunatic. Now, at least that much is general knowledge, but few people understand at all how the system really works, and that has kept WB in ownership of just about everything.
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            Sal
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              We keep borrowing because the FED is hooked to World Bank, which owns all but around 7 countries now. WB literally owns the world right now.

              The fabricated issue? Our whole economic system. It's called FIAT and to explain it takes a lot of economics courses in fiat money and the set up that we are under.

              The only thing the system can do is create debt (which enslaves any country in the money system) is because they charge x for each dollar they print, and there's also interest on it. The problem is that the money for the printing and interest does not exist. They have to print it....which incurs more debt. It's a slave system of finance. Everyone who's tried to expose the FED and get rid of global ownership via fiat currency, has been killed.

              30 years ago when I tried to tell people the FED is a bank and not Gov - I was called a tinfoil wrapped lunatic. Now, at least that much is general knowledge, but few people understand at all how the system really works, and that has kept WB in ownership of just about everything.
              The REAL problem is that we started a PROMISE BASED economy THOUSANDS of years ago. Since Promises are BOUND to be broken, hard currency(Mostly COINS) was often presented with an asset roughly equivalent to the promise. In CIVILIZED nations, the SOFT currency(bills) often had an EMBLAZENED promise that it could be turned in for the hard asset, at a local bank. ALAS, a bunch of idiot criminals got together to conspire to rip off the planet. Their plan came to fruition on December 23, 1913! "THE FED" was BORN! They decided ripping off people through a new WAGE TAX, that they called an income tax.

              ALAS, that was NOT enough! A disaster happened, and they wanted to REALLY rip things off. April 5, 1933 they went through even safe deposit boxes and stole all the gold, etc... They EVEN stole those dollars that were emblazoned with the promise that they could be redeemed for hard assets!

              ALAS, THAT was not enough, so they started removing almost ALL worthwhile metal from the currency! This is ironic, because a person doing this was considered a thief and guilty of fraud! THAT is why the more expensive coins, like a quarter on up, have beading(a design or printing around the side of the coin). CLIPPING a coin changes it in an obvious way.

              The problem with this promise, and debt, is that you want the one PROMISING to be the one hurt by forgiveness of debt. The ones now OPENLY tied to that promise are:

              Canada
              France
              Germany (2015 Chair)
              Italy
              Japan
              Russia (Suspended)
              United Kingdom
              United States
              European Union

              I don't know how switzerland ties to this, but they DO in some way, as THEY are now on a fiat currency. The ones that are apparently TRYING to become involved include:

              Argentina
              Australia
              Brazil
              China
              India
              Indonesia
              Mexico
              Saudi Arabia
              South Africa
              South Korea
              Turkey

              SO, what happens with the OTHER countries? HECK, any particular country may end up at war with us.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author frankhill
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              Everyone who's tried to expose the FED and get rid of global ownership via fiat currency, has been killed.

              Ron Paul is still alive and kicking (and informing). I wish his son shared more of his thinking....

              Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                Originally Posted by frankhill View Post

                Ron Paul is still alive and kicking (and informing). I wish his son shared more of his thinking....

                Frank
                Ron Paul didn't expose them........people just started finding out randomly until most of the people finally caught on. What RP advocates is getting rid of them. I side with him whole-heartedly. Until we do that, we're pretty much a corporate run country instead of gov/people run and we don't even own our own money, let alone our own economy and land.
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                Sal
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                  Ron Paul didn't expose them........people just started finding out randomly until most of the people finally caught on. What RP advocates is getting rid of them. I side with him whole-heartedly. Until we do that, we're pretty much a corporate run country instead of gov/people run and we don't even own our own money, let alone our own economy and land.
                  We live in a world that is SO weird! I ALMOST ranted about eyeborgs, Maybe I did, but I don't THINK I posted it. It is a PITY! There are really like only TWO clear things that hadn't ACTUALLY happened yet, that were in eyeborgs! WELL, the VERY NEXT DAY, it was found that ********SURPRISE********! There is now only ONE thing! The technology is all there! I wonder when that LAST piece will happen. They HAVE spoken about it! They HAVE done a limited variant of it overseas, and spoken about doing it here! Eyeborgs came out 2009.

                  The ONE piece? It is a movie about the entirety of the US being controlled by a puppet government people BELIEVE exists, and is for their benefit, but it doesn't and isn't. Because of a vague clause in a surveillance act that is VERY much like the real patriot act, they have surveillance cameras(like we have). Everyone thinks they are tiny little cameras but they all are hooked to remotely controlled robots and have their own weapons, that can punish, frame, vandalize, and kill. The records made by the robots are taken as infallible, and used to convict, though they are simply seemingly original recreations of video used to frame innocent people. So we are really only missing the robots.

                  Computers have made what once seemed impossible all too easy! Heck, they recently created laws mandating that all credit cards, at least in the US, have those chips. They CLAIM this is going to somehow limit fraud. YEAH RIGHT! My laptop somehow magically reads the card, conveys the info to amazon or whatever and they somehow magically transmit it to the processor? SORRY, NOT POSSIBLE! And HOW do you do it over the phone? So one wonders what it is for!

                  It COULD be an RFID chip, or similar, and RFID sensors, that are being installed ALL OVER THE PLACE, could transmit the INFO to computers, that have been in place for over a decade, to track where we are. Although seemingly unlikely, similar technology has been used for over 20 years in warehouses all over the country to track and inventory products! And the computers and sensors I spoke of earlier? They are used to track and identify CARS! If you wanted to avoid them prior to the widespread use of this technology, you had to avoid various roads, use cash, or break the law.

                  Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author OldGoat54
                  Thanks to the writer of that thread . The writer demonstrate a solid understanding of the basic issue and should be complimented . It seems to me that we need to recognize the coming crash is imminent and that we need to be preparing for the day US paper Dollars are rejected and replaced with some new ( fiat ) currency. While I have nothing against Bitcoin , I believe a much wiser course would be to become well stacked in one of several possible ( recognizable !) alternatives found in both silver and gold coins . There is MUCH to this issue and it behooves those who begin to see the danger to speak up and take action There is still time to prepare !
                  OldGoat54
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                • Profile picture of the author OldGoat54
                  Thanks to the writer of that thread . The writer demonstrate a solid understanding of the basic issue and should be complimented . It seems to me that we need to recognize the coming crash is imminent and that we need to be preparing for the day US paper Dollars are rejected and replaced with some new ( fiat ) currency. While I have nothing against Bitcoin , I believe a much wiser course would be to become well stacked in one of several possible ( recognizable !) alternatives found in both silver and gold coins . There is MUCH to this issue and it behooves those who begin to see the danger to speak up and take action There is still time to prepare !
                  OldGoat54
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by OldGoat54 View Post

                    It seems to me that we need to recognize the coming crash is imminent and that we need to be preparing for the day US paper Dollars are rejected and replaced with some new ( fiat ) currency. OldGoat54
                    In a word - hogwash!

                    Cheers. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by blueclcl View Post

      The US $ is going to crash?

      What makes you think that?
      Not sure but he won't reply, he's been banned it seems.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jamie Thompson
      Originally Posted by blueclcl View Post

      The US $ is going to crash?

      What makes you think that?
      It will 100% crash. It is only a matter of time now. Nothing is produced and all cash is manufactured and destroying the value of the dollar. It cannot be sustained for much longer. Hyperinflation on the way, like a third world country.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Jamie Thompson View Post

        It will 100% crash. It is only a matter of time now. Nothing is produced and all cash is manufactured and destroying the value of the dollar. It cannot be sustained for much longer. Hyperinflation on the way, like a third world country.
        I wouldn't bet my life on it happening anytime in the next 100 years.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jamie Thompson View Post

        It will 100% crash. It is only a matter of time now. Nothing is produced and all cash is manufactured and destroying the value of the dollar. It cannot be sustained for much longer. Hyperinflation on the way, like a third world country.
        I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard that since the first trillion was recorded.

        I'd have enough by now to pay off the freakin' debt.

        Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Gold prices always rise during hard times. Copper is a surefire winner for long-term investments.
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    Project HERE.

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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    @ http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Combine the liabilities for a good laugh. Social Security + Prescription Drug + Medicare = Total Unfunded.

    Then look at everyone collecting benefits + out of work + in poverty + retirees + SSI.

    (50% of the country is receiving benefits, meanwhile the workforce constitutes less than 50%. You do the math. Going to be a lot of cranky people when their pension funds are dry).

    Nothing to see here.



    (I wouldn't side with bitcoin. But it's wise to bet against the USD. Put faith in my main man Yukon Cornelius).
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Burl Ives - wow.

      Two things worry me currently. We are getting very close to 18 trillion in debt. Second, the fear of ebola in the US could lead to economy downturn quickly if people are afraid to travel, use public transportation, shop in public places (holiday season coming).
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Burl Ives - wow.

        Two things worry me currently. We are getting very close to 18 trillion in debt. Second, the fear of ebola in the US could lead to economy downturn quickly if people are afraid to travel, use public transportation, shop in public places (holiday season coming).
        This ebola garbage makes some things CLEAR!

        1. The US cares NOTHING about citizens!
        2. The government is loaded with IDIOTS that are LIARS!
        3. The government LOVES SQUANDERING money and lives!
        4. Healthcare workers, as a group, are no better than the government.

        BTW Planes are made for tradeoffs in cost, fuel economy, profit, and comfort(With regard to air, and a few nothing features), in THAT ORDER! They are NOT made to be safe, outside of the few safety features they need to encourage the rest.

        Most other public transportation is made for cost, fuel economy, and profit, and really not made for comfort at all.

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Burl Ives - wow.

        Two things worry me currently. We are getting very close to 18 trillion in debt. Second, the fear of ebola in the US could lead to economy downturn quickly if people are afraid to travel, use public transportation, shop in public places (holiday season coming).
        I was thinking about this earlier (should go in the random thought thread). But remember Legionnaires Disease, H1N1(swine flu), H5N1(bird flu), and this?
        The cover of Life said--in large red capital letters--``NOW NO ONE IS SAFE FROM AIDS The Incubation Of A National Tragedy - Chicago Tribune
        All those were considered plagues that could wipe out the nation.
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  • Profile picture of the author HostZealot
    I remember an article in The Economist this January or February, that US government ordered the Federal Reserve Bank to limit the emission of USD. It is limited 10 billion per month since then, meaning, i.e. that they emitted 240 billion in January, 230 in February, 220 in March and so on. the reason? Lowering emission should lead to increasing value of USD mass in the US and make it stand more firm when the time to pay the national debt comes. Obama persuaded Congress to prolong the term, yet this time will inevitably come. All the rest of the currencies lower their positions obviously and even experts don't know what the results will be.

    However, BitCoin is mostly considered fraudulent and illegal by big financial institutions nowadays. Thus said putting all eggs to that basket is not the wisest decision, IMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by frankhill View Post

    would it have been a good idea to put some of your cash in Bitcoin? Would/could the government stop its use?

    I know very little about Bitcoin and it's risks and advantages.


    Frank
    You are STILL on this KICK? I TOLD YOU it would happen AND..... OLD support would put today's price around $800 Less than $800 breaks support! What is it TODAY? LESS than $341!

    The LAST time it was NEAR this low was 2/23/2014. ALAS, it was like 365 then! Next support level is like $24! Could I be wrong about it going down? MAYBE! But I wouldn't want to place a bet! Bitcoin was subject to a DOCUMENTED pump and dump scheme! One exchanger got HUGE, set the price HIGH, and sold bitcoins at a HUGE profit. Before being exposed, there was a MASSIVE campaign that got a LOT of people into it. NOW, even companies like paypal are taking note.

    Well, the guy was exposed, and things started dropping. Companies now hold it and have as much sway as the heretofore LARGEST exchanges! Companies are tracking the values. Companies are GRAPHING the values! So the garbage that could be done SO easily earlier is FAR harder to do now.

    I predicted this LONG ago. It DID climb slightly until 8/25/2014. It THEN took a steeper drop until 9/7/2014. A little drop until 9/14/2014(It was almost 473 THEN), and then took a steeper drop until..... Well, it is still going, so we'll see. BTW this is against the US dollar

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author frankhill
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      You are STILL on this KICK? I TOLD YOU it would happen AND..... OLD support would put today's price around $800 Less than $800 breaks support! What is it TODAY? LESS than $341!

      The LAST time it was NEAR this low was 2/23/2014. ALAS, it was like 365 then! Next support level is like $24! Could I be wrong about it going down? MAYBE! But I wouldn't want to place a bet! Bitcoin was subject to a DOCUMENTED pump and dump scheme! One exchanger got HUGE, set the price HIGH, and sold bitcoins at a HUGE profit. Before being exposed, there was a MASSIVE campaign that got a LOT of people into it. NOW, even companies like paypal are taking note.

      Well, the guy was exposed, and things started dropping. Companies now hold it and have as much sway as the heretofore LARGEST exchanges! Companies are tracking the values. Companies are GRAPHING the values! So the garbage that could be done SO easily earlier is FAR harder to do now.

      I predicted this LONG ago. It DID climb slightly until 8/25/2014. It THEN took a steeper drop until 9/7/2014. A little drop until 9/14/2014(It was almost 473 THEN), and then took a steeper drop until..... Well, it is still going, so we'll see. BTW this is against the US dollar

      Steve

      Um...what kick? I think you have me confused with someone else. Thanks for your comments though
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by frankhill View Post

        Um...what kick? I think you have me confused with someone else. Thanks for your comments though
        NOPE! Every few months, this comes up again. I consider you guys the same.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Thanks button dead - Steve. Not sure about bitcoin, but the dollar issue is:

    The US has been bankrupt......and bank owned since 1938. The debt is not real since the money system we have (federal reserve notes) isn't real. If we had real money, we couldn't have this kind of debt - I'm speaking a physical impossibility, not that our leaders would suddenly be more responsible.

    What's tanking the US is that the USD is being removed from other super-powers as the reserve currency. If that forces us back into metal backed currency, it might just save our butts in the long run even though it will be a disaster short-term. Also a key factor in saving us is the fact that US just became the #1 oil producer, so our need to rely on the Middle East for oil has just been alleviated. We now produce enough to take care of our own needs and can stop trade whenever we need to for any purpose without suffering from losing reserve status. We also would not have the crimp put on our export that we have by retaining reserve status.

    Now if Russia and China set up their system in metal backed, the World Bank criminal cartel will also fall - and that would be a blessing to every country on earth.

    That's why you will see me support oil drilling in the US even though it's an ecological nightmare. We can work to preserve ecosystems rather than work to pay World bank extortion and ownership fees, and still come out on top. We'd be able to just walk out of the Middle East and leave them to their own religious/leadership problems.

    World Bank is destroying this whole globe with the help of a few major corporations. If losing reserve status means destroying that bank, I'm all damned for it no matter what the immediate consequences and discomfort. We already have two states (possibly more since I last researched) set up to provide metal backed capital again.
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    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    If and when the U.S. economy crashes, there is already a plan to cover any and all tracks or there will be an uprising, and no one will want fingers pointing at them. There may be a regional war in the mid east, with an oil choke-hold from Iran as a retaliation from an attack from Israel. "There is your reason for the economic meltdown, high oil prices." I can't speak for any other nations, but ours will buy into it hook, line and sinker.

    As for ebola, all I can do is speculate, and probably really bad speculation at that, so there is no need to share my opinions on that topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, it hit a NEW LOW of 196.46. TODAY, it is at 229.81. It is still lower than I predicted back a few months ago, Charting it, it has really broken below support, the lowest being around 280.or so at this point. It's been on a minor upswing since about 1/14/2015, but if it turns down before 280, it might be a good time to sell.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Well, it hit a NEW LOW of 196.46. TODAY, it is at 229.81.
      Is that compared to the Yen? How is it compared to other currencies?

      You can't just compare it to one other currency and make a case either way. Especially when you don't consider the macro-economic outlook for the country that uses that particular currency.

      I don't particularly follow it much other than the AU$/US$ rates, and that is because some of my expenses and income are in US$, but how is the US$ compared to the Euro? How is it compared to the Swiss Franc.

      I'd imagine that compared to the Euro, the US$ is doing pretty well, based on economic conditions in the EU, but not so well against the Swiss Franc (CHF) following moves by Switzerland during the week to no longer peg the CHF to the Euro.

      Then again, as I said, I don't really follow these things.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        Is that compared to the Yen? How is it compared to other currencies?

        You can't just compare it to one other currency and make a case either way. Especially when you don't consider the macro-economic outlook for the country that uses that particular currency.
        NORMALLY you would be right, but I think many of the exchanges, etc... are run with dollars, and they often compare it to dollars. NON THE LESS, I checked it. YEN, EURO, POUND, GOLD, AUD SAME PATTERNS!

        I don't particularly follow it much other than the AU$/US$ rates, and that is because some of my expenses and income are in US$, but how is the US$ compared to the Euro? How is it compared to the Swiss Franc.
        USD / AUD
        1.2204
        USD / XAU
        0.0008
        USD / CAD
        1.1938
        USD / EUR
        0.8520
        USD / JPY
        117.69
        USD/CHF
        0.9631

        So the dollar SEEMS stronger for the moment. I SHOULD show the types of numbers I saw from the late 80s. I didn't check out AUD at the time. NO OFFENSE, but it wasn't a major currency.
        XAU SHOULD be closer to 0.0025! So gold is higher relative to then, INFLATION! CAD should be closer to 1.30, so the Canadian dollar is HIGHER relative to then. The STATED and OFFICIAL intent for the euro was to be PEGGED to the dollar at 1!!!!!! Since the dollar did SO bad, they unpegged it, and IT went up! The JPY should be closer to 103! The CHF should be like 1.5! SO, although short term all are DOWN against the dollar, they are UP over the dollar from the late 80s.

        I'd imagine that compared to the Euro, the US$ is doing pretty well, based on economic conditions in the EU, but not so well against the Swiss Franc (CHF) following moves by Switzerland during the week to no longer peg the CHF to the Euro.

        Then again, as I said, I don't really follow these things.
        EUR / CHF
        1.2023

        So the euro is not even as good as the dollar WAS, though it is better than the dollar IS. The short term trend for the CHF against the euro IS down though, meaning each euro buys fwer francs. In 1999, it was around 1.6chf. TODAY, it is just over 1.2chf.

        BTW European banks recently went on record as buying a lot of US bonds. That serves to even out the dollar and the euro more and, according to what most believe, means the euro will drop, and the dollar would go up. It WAS presented as a factor to raising stock values last week.

        News Default Page - FreeRealTime.com

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    - If the 18 trill that some folks love to invoke, was 30 trill at this point and time then I'd be worried - but its not.

    - The interest payments on the 18 trill amount to about 250-350 billion per year - still very manageable.

    It would have been nice to use that 250-350 billion per year for national investments etc. but it is not to be. The 18 trill is a big number but IMHO, it is still manageable. The bottom line is we have a lot of national debt but it's still not going to be a U.S.A. currency killer.

    - When the national debt to GDP ratio gets above 140% then give me a call. Until then, I'm not worried.

    “That tipping point of 90 percent is absolutely nonsense,”

    Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize-winning Columbia University economist, said today on Bloomberg Television’s “Surveillance” with Tom Keene and Sara Eisen.

    “We had a much higher debt-to-GDP ratio at the end of World War II.

    After World War II ended, we had the fastest rate of economic growth, shared prosperity.”


    - If the U.S. had continued to run a string of trillion dollar yearly deficits after 2009, then I'd be worried - but we have not.

    - Russia won't be leading anyone - anywhere, in any financial way, anytime soon.

    - If China dumps the dollars/treasuries it holds, they'll perform financial-cide on their own investments, so that's not going to happen.

    - Investment houses world-wide still can't get enough of U.S. treasuries and the U.S. gov has no problem borrowing money to meet its needs.

    Six Major Reasons Why the Dollar Won't Collapse | FS Staff | FINANCIAL SENSE


    U.S. Isn’t Broke, Dollar Won’t Fail, Capital Economics Says

    U.S. Isn

    IMHO, going forward, if the U.S. can limit the damage its economic reactionary elements inflict on it, the nation will experience a new birth of economic freedom for its middle class.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      - If the 18 trill that some folks love to invoke, was 30 trill at this point and time then I'd be worried - but its not.

      - The interest payments on the 18 trill amount to about 250-350 billion per year - still very manageable.
      I don't know what the average interest rate is on the bonds, but I would imagine it is like 4%. 4% on 18 trillion would be 720billion! You might think 4% sounds high, but in 2001 the current rate was OVER 6%. In 2008, the rate was 7.3%! So 4% as an aggregate yield is probably good. 2014 over 5%! I am only checking treasury bonds, but you get the idea! And DON'T FORGET! It doesn't matter so much what we think anyway. I am only approximating what it may be. NOBODY is going to get this number right. They listen to the credit agencies, and the LOWERED the US credit rating! A lower rating for the countries bonds is ******EXACTLY***** the same thing as a lower rating for peoples credit cards. The average rate goes UP! They are pulling all sorts of tricks to get this lower. THAT was what QE I, II, III and operation twist were. AND, as part of the "corporate welfare" and "loopholes" you are so against, they pay the money out tax free! They do that so that people that deal with dollars a lot, and may be taxed, feel like they are getting a 10% yield when they are really only getting a 7% yield.

      It would have been nice to use that 250-350 billion per year for national investments etc. but it is not to be. The 18 trill is a big number but IMHO, it is still manageable. The bottom line is we have a lot of national debt but it's still not going to be a U.S.A. currency killer.
      And THAT is the kind of thinking that always means TROUBLE!

      - When the national debt to GDP ratio gets above 140% then give me a call. Until then, I'm not worried.

      "That tipping point of 90 percent is absolutely nonsense,"

      Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize-winning Columbia University economist, said today on Bloomberg Television's "Surveillance" with Tom Keene and Sara Eisen.

      "We had a much higher debt-to-GDP ratio at the end of World War II.

      After World War II ended, we had the fastest rate of economic growth, shared prosperity."


      - If the U.S. had continued to run a string of trillion dollar yearly deficits after 2009, then I'd be worried - but we have not.

      - Russia won't be leading anyone - anywhere, in any financial way, anytime soon.

      - If China dumps the dollars/treasuries it holds, they'll perform financial-cide on their own investments, so that's not going to happen.

      - Investment houses world-wide still can't get enough of U.S. treasuries and the U.S. gov has no problem borrowing money to meet its needs.

      Six Major Reasons Why the Dollar Won't Collapse | FS Staff | FINANCIAL SENSE


      U.S. Isn't Broke, Dollar Won't Fail, Capital Economics Says

      U.S. Isn

      IMHO, going forward, if the U.S. can limit the damage its economic reactionary elements inflict on it, the nation will experience a new birth of economic freedom for its middle class.
      In WWII, the US was a huge powerhouse and a SAVIOR! NEITHER is the case today!
      As for the nobel prize? TODAY, you might as well say he managed to fill his car today.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I don't know what the average interest rate is on the bonds, but I would imagine it is like 4%. 4% on 18 trillion would be 720billion! You might think 4% sounds high, but in 2001 the current rate was OVER 6%. In 2008, the rate was 7.3%! So 4% as an aggregate yield is probably good. 2014 over 5%! I am only checking treasury bonds, but you get the idea! And DON'T FORGET! It doesn't matter so much what we think anyway. I am only approximating what it may be. NOBODY is going to get this number right. They listen to the credit agencies, and the LOWERED the US credit rating! A lower rating for the countries bonds is ******EXACTLY***** the same thing as a lower rating for peoples credit cards. The average rate goes UP! They are pulling all sorts of tricks to get this lower. THAT was what QE I, II, III and operation twist were. AND, as part of the "corporate welfare" and "loopholes" you are so against, they pay the money out tax free! They do that so that people that deal with dollars a lot, and may be taxed, feel like they are getting a 10% yield when they are really only getting a 7% yield.



        And THAT is the kind of thinking that always means TROUBLE!



        In WWII, the US was a huge powerhouse and a SAVIOR! NEITHER is the case today!
        As for the nobel prize? TODAY, you might as well say he managed to fill his car today.

        Steve

        The CBO pegs the interest payments on U.S. national debt at only $233 Billion for 2014.



        But there's potential danger on the horizon if the economy doesn't grow - along with debt and interest payments.

        The USA has carried a lot of debt before and if there ever was such a thing as a mismanaged sleeping giant the USA is one at this point in time.




        And as far as I'm concerned, you are a part of that negative, reactionary element I speak of that is holding the middle class of this nation back by sending non-nation-building idiots to national office.

        IMHO, a few major policy directions could easily get the American middle class roaring again within 8-10 years.
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          The CBO pegs the interest payments on U.S. national debt at only $233 Billion for 2014.



          But there's potential danger on the horizon if the economy doesn't grow - along with debt and interest payments.

          The USA has carried a lot of debt before and if there ever was such a thing as a mismanaged sleeping giant the USA is one at this point in time.




          And as far as I'm concerned, you are a part of that negative, reactionary element I speak of that is holding the middle class of this nation back by sending non-nation-building idiots to national office.

          IMHO, a few major policy directions could easily get the American middle class roaring again within 8-10 years.
          OK, your graph AGAIN calls for the question I must ask again! WHICH ADMIN(s) were in control 2009-2015? OR, even MORE appropriately, since they were the ones given the power in the constitution, WHAT group controlled congress 2007-2015. Realize that the house had practically no control over expenses since the last house election. AND, for the WIN!!!!!!!! WHO SPONSORED that bill that caused the sub prime fiasco in 2007!?

          A few MINOR policy changes could start the middle class going in less than 3 years! Unfortunately, with the current environment, that will never happen, so we have to settle for 5!

          KEEP IN MIND, there IS a time component! A MINOR change in 1999 could have gotten things to take off in a couple MONTHS! They WAITED for their MORONIC changes to take full effect, and BANKRUPT COMPANIES and force companies to CHANGE PLANS! What COULD have been done in a couple months became 2-3 decades! The US STILL hasn't recovered! IN FACT, the US had to open the spigot MORE AND MORE and set a violent chain reaction in place. "The FED" has been promising for OVER A DECADE to rectify it, by increasing the "fed funds rate", but it generally must be done in a STRONG economy! When the stock market fears they might do it, the market falls BIG TIME! The fed then says OK, OK, we won't do it yet. I think the last said we had until at least 10/2015, but what happens THEN? BTW the fed funds rate is the US equivalent of the british LIBOR rate. It affects EVERYTHING! BANK LIQUIDITY! CREDIT LIQUIDITY! BOND RATES! MORTGAGE RATES! ETC..... This means that businesses will have a harder time with financing, people and businesses will have a harder time with financing, the federal government will have to pay more for bonds, etc... Home values will drop, because the rates to borrow will go up.

          Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      - If the 18 trill that some folks love to invoke, was 30 trill at this point and time then I'd be worried - but its not.
      Past time to start worrying. The amount of money that the US Government has obligated itself and it's tax-paying citizens to "at this point and time " is Over 100 Trillion dollars.

      Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Past time to start worrying.

        The amount of money that the US Government has obligated itself and it's tax-paying citizens to "at this point and time " is Over 100 Trillion dollars.

        Joe Mobley

        And just like paying off a mortgage (without a balloon payment) it doesn't have to be paid all at once.


        So it would make a lot of sense if some folks would take that fact into consideration when talking about the U.S. obligation situation.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          So it would make a lot of sense if some folks would take that fact into consideration when talking about the U.S. obligation situation.
          "There you go again," if I may quote St. Ronnie. Always trying to slip in that 'common sense' crap. Please check your URL. I believe you may be lost. :-)

          Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          And just like paying off a mortgage (without a balloon payment) it doesn't have to be paid all at once.
          Oh yea, that's brilliant!

          Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for the housing, health care, feeding and education of nearly half of the country legal citizens is like paying for their own mortgage.

          Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for the housing, health care, feeding and education of Millions of Illegal Immigrants is a wonderful opportunity to better their future.

          Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for [Insert your favorite, brilliant idea here] is an economically smart thing to do themselves, their families or for the country.


          The federal unfunded liabilities are catastrophic for future taxpayers and economic growth. At usdebtclock.org, federal unfunded liabilities are estimated at near $127 trillion, which is roughly $1.1 million per taxpayer and nearly double 2012's total world output.
          You Think The Deficit Is Bad? Federal Unfunded Liabilities Exceed $127 Trillion - Forbes

          One

          Point

          One

          Million

          PER...

          Taxpayer!



          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          So it would make a lot of sense if some folks would take that fact into consideration when talking about the U.S. obligation situation.
          Some folks are not capable of taking the facts into consideration when talking about the U.S. obligation situation.



          Hmm... Maybe we should have taken out that balloon payment after-all.

          Joe Mobley
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            Oh yea, that's brilliant!

            Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for the housing, health care, feeding and education of nearly half of the country legal citizens is like paying for their own mortgage.

            Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for the housing, health care, feeding and education of Millions of Illegal Immigrants is a wonderful opportunity to better their future.

            Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for [Insert your favorite, brilliant idea here] is an economically smart thing to do themselves, their families or for the country.




            You Think The Deficit Is Bad? Federal Unfunded Liabilities Exceed $127 Trillion - Forbes

            One

            Point

            One

            Million

            PER...

            Taxpayer!





            Some folks are not capable of taking the facts into consideration when talking about the U.S. obligation situation.



            Hmm... Maybe we should have taken out that balloon payment after-all.

            Joe Mobley

            Given your propensity for destructive economic attitudes and concepts- especially for the American middle class, I bet a balloon payment makes a lot of sense to you.

            You said...

            "Only a fool would think that being forced to pay for the housing, health care, feeding and education of nearly half of the country legal citizens is like paying for their own mortgage."

            I say...

            Sir, you are the one who acts like, no matter what the debt is for, [insert your pet peeve(s) here]... all 129 total billion of it...

            ...has to be paid at one time and I was just trying to explain to you that that is not the case.

            But you in your infinite wisdom, invoke the cynical, purposely misunderstood and misused 47% issue.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...xes-in-charts/

            All I was saying is...

            The debt can and will be paid off like mortgage payments/pay as you go, no matter what the huge future obligation number is.


            But...

            That is as long as your reactionary (and they're not imaginary) non-nation-building friends don't get control of of the national government for any sustained period of time to inflict even more damage on the lives of the average American as their economic philosophy is apt to do - much like the scorpion in that famous tale.

            BTW... your reactionary (and they're not imaginary) non-nation-building friends can do a lot of damage on the state level also.

            For example some states and whole regions of the nation will have...

            - Lower wages on average.

            - Less voting rights.

            - Dirtier air and environment etc.

            - Weaker health care system.

            - More oppression of women. (abortion rights etc.)

            - Lower standard of living verses the rest of the nation.

            But hey, who cares about the American middle class and/or the average American?

            Not you right?
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              I will just ignore the other twaddle!

              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              For example some states and whole regions of the nation will have...

              - Lower wages on average.
              OH YEAH? You mean like it always HAS been, and always shall be!?!?!?!? YOU want all to be the same, which is IMPOSSIBLE!

              - Less voting rights.
              YEP! MANDATED BY LAW! Why should 1 person have more say than 1 MILLION? This IS the reason for the CENSUS you know! YOU are happy to declare that the constitution said a black was worth 3/5ths of a person. It did NOT say that AT ALL! It said that a state having slaves should get no more than 3/5ths consideration for each slave(Of ANY race)! WHY? Allocation of funds for the state, and REPRESENTATION!

              - Dirtier air and environment etc.
              AGAIN, HOW do you think this could be any different? I mean parts of california have lots of smog simply because mountains keep it in.

              - Weaker health care system.
              OK, this is out of the constitutional area ANYWAY, but is ANOTHER given.

              - More oppression of women. (abortion rights etc.)
              That isn't oppression of women, and states generally allow abortion up to a certain point ANYWAY! Interesting how NOBODY calls the catholic church on this! I believe THEY still even forbid condoms.

              Christian views on contraception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              BTW FORGET about what it says about "christian churches". In the CATHOLIC CHURCH, REGARDLESS of location, the pope's word is LAW!!!!!! Of course, in protestant churches, they can have different doctrines, and they usually aren't so firm in this area.

              - Lower standard of living verses the rest of the nation.
              See ABOVE!

              But hey, who cares about the American middle class and/or the average American?

              Not you right?
              Well, since you say the 1% are the 1%, they must be the AHEM 1%! So you couldn't be talking about THEM! I mean they don't have enough, probably don't have a lot of stock income that is taxable, etc... That is ANOTHER thing! STOCK is taxed WHEN IT IS SOLD, so MOST stock warren buffett has is NOT TAXABLE! He isn't going to sell the stock on his own account, and will sell little stock. He generally buys stock to get companies, turns them around, etc... He sells companies and builds companies. HECK, even the berkshire hathway stock pays NO dividends, and it never does a forward split(Class A can simply be exchanged for 30 Class B shares ), so NO component is taxable until it is sold.

              Anyway, since you can't be talking about the 1%, or the VERY poor(since they pay so little tax), you must want the 52% or whatever to pay more taxes, etc... They are IN THE MIDDLE, and middle class. So you advise the government to TAX the middle class to help the middle class out? How does THAT work?

              It has been known, FROM THE BEGINNING, that states are different sizes, have different needs, provide different things, have different assets, have different liabilities, etc.... So WHY do you think that all states should be equal? And if they are all equal, how can the people IN those states all be equal? States have been allocated resources in a way that, even if planned according to certain resources, etc..., is RANDOM. REALLY! NO particular state will be like another.

              California has always had a large share of sunshine, stable weather, and silicon and the like for IC production, so there are a lot of vineyards and electronic/computer companies. The "fly over" states have had so few other resources, that they often deal with agriculture, services, maybe shipping, etc...
              Supposedly, vineyards require a more stable weather, as some say it changes the taste of wines, but most crops aren't so demanding.

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    That is ANOTHER thing! They are NOT treating Social security as they promised they would. It is all STOLEN! You work DECADES, and they STEAL your money on the PRETENSE that it is INVESTED FOR YOU WITH INTEREST! How much is there? *********NOTHING*********! Oh SURE, if those before you get paid, AND there are enough paying into the system, AND they feel like it, they will pay you SOMETHING! WHERE do they get it? BORROWING and STEALING from the people that are still working then. And you are NOT allowed to augment it by working! If you do, they steal still MORE, by giving you even LESS!

    Of course, they did the SAME with education, which is a MAJOR reason why they want at least a bachelors degree, and why so many highschoolers know SOOOOO little. They take ever more money, and give so little back. If you dare to mention it, they say they need MORE!

    And ROADS? Last I heard, Cal trans(CA) was a JOKE! And in MA, just mention BIG DIG! AK? Can anyone say "bridge to nowhere"?

    INSURANCE is NOT healthcare! MEDICARE and MEDICAL aren't either! The HEALTHCARE is information, education, doctors, nurses, clinics and hospitals!

    As for the idea of GW? Isn't it interesting how they have HUNDREDS of private jets fly in for people to meet to discuss it! Some of them take almost a DAYs travel! They create more of the gas they are so worried about than perhaps all the car drivers in western europe in a WEEK!

    We are NOT in the 14th century anymore! Seriously! In the 15th century, they created an instrument we still use today! This allowed people to do all this remotely, at a low cost! OH, it was slow, but they could do it REASONABLY! In the 19th century they created ANOTHER way to do it! Oh SURE, it was still slow, but they could be DONE with the meeting before the last jet landed, assuming they had jets that far back. In the early 20th century, they could be DONE with the meeting before the last people made it to the airport. In the late 20th century, they could be DONE with the whole meeting before they could coordinate a date for a physical meeting! And TODAY?!?!?!?!? TODAY!?!?!?!?!? They could DISPENSE with a meeting altogether by using group management! They could have had a quick meeting to discuss it, typesetted it, AND translated it into every language, before they could even determine who to call to really set things up.

    BTW They can have FULL AUDIO, VISUAL, EDITING, WORKGROUPS, SEMINARS, and EDUCATION, in near real time with NO TRAVEL, HOTELS, ETC.....

    But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! They want to fly THOUSANDS of miles and disturb cities and spend THOUSANDS of dollars on hotels, food, transportation, etc... and create TONS of the stuff they CLAIM to want to get rid of,

    Can I ask ONE little SIMPLE question? WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - the other countries? They are conquered in wars or in other means of installing leaders. We've done it to about every country in the middle east we can so far. None of the countries we've fought were on the fiat currency until we got done with them.

    China and Russia are teaming up to put us out of reserve status - which will tank our economy unless we kick the FED to the curb. It will, however, disrupt the rule of the sociopaths that own world bank.
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    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve - the other countries? They are conquered in wars or in other means of installing leaders. We've done it to about every country in the middle east we can so far. None of the countries we've fought were on the fiat currency until we got done with them.

      China and Russia are teaming up to put us out of reserve status - which will tank our economy unless we kick the FED to the curb. It will, however, disrupt the rule of the sociopaths that own world bank.
      You MAY have a point there. I heard the UN ALSO had a plan, that they are HAPPY about, which is to put ALL on FIAT currencies! Their stated CLAIM is that this is a kind of "ECONOMIC MAD" technique. The whole point of the G20 is to get them involved with the "G7", and make them FIAT currencies. The whole idea of the G7 is to define, structure, and enforce, a kind of economic parity by buying and selling one anothers currency. If a country decides to violate their goals, like russia did with the UKRAINE, they can be kicked out and the other countries can fail to enforce, or even sell, to lower the currency, as was done with russia.

      August fourth to the end of this year, against the dollar!
      GOLD STABLE 12% variance
      CAD DOWN 6%
      GBP DOWN 8%
      EUR DOWN 9%
      RUB DOWN 34%

      So the russian rubble dropped about 4 times as much. The Rubble was dropping relatively gradually, like the others, until late november. It dropped about 10% just between the last week of november, and the first week of december. And at one point, it dropped even more than 34%!

      And it IS interesting that the G7 were all leaders of sides of WWII! ALL the leaders on BOTH SIDES, listed in wikipedia, are in the G7, except for china. ODD, I never thought of china as an ally! The only one left in the G7 is canada, though one could argue they would go along with Great Britain.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW TL LOVES to say I don't know what I am talking about, that things are great, etc.... and the CBO says so. I think I said this earlier but what they heck. It came up AGAIN! The CBO director said there IS a problem, and predicts a catastrophe by 2040 if things don't change.


    Granted 25 years is a long time. 3-6 presidents, but the fact is that he is worried NOW, and as we get closer, things have to be curtailed.

    In looking at youtube, I saw various GOVERNMENT AND "FED" OFFICIALS saying the same sort of thing for over 5 years!

    BTW ONE way to curtail things is what they HAVE DONE! Effectively steal social security. Simply cut COLA, as they have been doing, increase the starting age, as they have been doing, etc... But HEY, if you can retire next year at 66, or whatever the age will be, DON'T COUNT ON IT! On a WHIM they could increase it or worse. They have before. HECK, THIS year retirees can be younger than next, and next years can be younger than the next. Those born in 1955, AS OF TODAY, can retire, with "100%" of "benefits", 2 months after their 66th birthday, so most could retire in 2021. I guess they shouldn't plan to live more than 19 years though.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    For Steve AKA Seasoned:


    Looks like Captain Obvious (you) needs to be right about something.


    You have never heard me say there is no future problem with social security, so why are you acting like you have?

    I also say...

    Big deal social security will be in trouble by 2033/2040 - IF things don't change.

    #1: By 2033/2040?, the SSfund will NOT be absolutely broke and unable to make any payments.

    It will be able to pay out about 75% of benefits IF nothing is done and that's a long way from paying out zero.

    IMHO, with a couple of small tweaks - social security will be fine and paying full benefits for the next 75-100 years.

    OK killer, you're wonderful at pointing out problems.

    You tell us your solution to the problem and then I'll tell you mine.

    Note: Current recipients and future recipients must receive full benefits in your solution.


    Worried About Social Security

    5 Facts about Social Security:

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...cial-security/
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      OK killer, you're wonderful at pointing out problems.

      You tell us your solution to the problem and then I'll tell you mine.

      Note: Current recipients and future recipients must receive full benefits in your solution.


      Worried About Social Security
      I told you mine LONG ago! It has been done world wide for perhaps BILLIONS of years! It works EVERY TIME!

      CUT CONSUMPTION!(HERE, you can say cut spending!)

      And you told us YOURS! It has been attempted for billions of years as well. It leads to wars, death, tyranny, etc.... It could be an extra animal killed for desert, or a 10cent increase in tax at the fuel pump, it is all the same.

      CONFISCATE!(Call it what you want, it is confiscation. But you generally say increase taxes etc....)

      It is NO coincidence that this period has us questioning the future more, and has a great increase in spending while people are literally PICKETING for even higher pay, etc....

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I told you mine LONG ago! It has been done world wide for perhaps BILLIONS of years! It works EVERY TIME!

        CUT CONSUMPTION!(HERE, you can say cut spending!)

        And you told us YOURS! It has been attempted for billions of years as well. It leads to wars, death, tyranny, etc.... It could be an extra animal killed for desert, or a 10cent increase in tax at the fuel pump, it is all the same.

        CONFISCATE!(Call it what you want, it is confiscation. But you generally say increase taxes etc....)

        It is NO coincidence that this period has us questioning the future more, and has a great increase in spending while people are literally PICKETING for even higher pay, etc....

        Steve
        What are you saying??

        - Are you saying cut the benefits??

        - Get rid of the program entirely?

        - How is it confiscation if most people are OK with giving up a little bit more (say another 2%) so that their benefits stay constant and perhaps the payouts are more generous.

        - I would also find ways of getting the wealthy to contribute more to the program.

        Yes...

        More confiscation (especially on the wealthy). Raise the maximum ceiling that can be taxed for social security. Now its about $113K. Slowly raise it to at least $150K.

        Also, and this is going to drive you batty...




















































        - Get the 12-20 million illegals into the system so that they can help fill the coffers also.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          What are you saying??

          - Are you saying cut the benefits??

          - Get rid of the program entirely?

          - How is it confiscation if most people are OK with giving up a little bit more (say another 2%) so that their benefits stay constant and perhaps the payouts are more generous.
          WOW, WHAT "LOGIC"! Twist things around and make it look like I want to cut programs THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PAID FOR! Social security? NOPE! They are spending it in the WRONG areas! How about paying a REASONABLE amount TO THOSE THAT PAID IN! How about cutting the programs that, IN THE REAL WORLD, would be BROKE!

          - I would also find ways of getting the wealthy to contribute more to the program.

          Yes...

          More confiscation (especially on the wealthy).
          WHY should they pay more into a SCAM!?

          Also, and this is going to drive you batty...

          - Get the 12-20 million illegals into the system so that they can help fill the coffers also.
          NOPE! YOU are batty! The illegals are a NET DRAIN on society! WHERE do YOU think that money comes from to begin with? OK, so THAT reduces the net income to citizens, and costs them jobs, AND.......

          They require services and housing which drives up costs and reduces resources! ALSO, they may get "social security" without paying in a penny... SO, NET DRAIN!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            WOW, WHAT "LOGIC"! Twist things around and make it look like I want to cut programs THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PAID FOR! Social security? NOPE! They are spending it in the WRONG areas! How about paying a REASONABLE amount TO THOSE THAT PAID IN! How about cutting the programs that, IN THE REAL WORLD, would be BROKE!



            WHY should they pay more into a SCAM!?



            NOPE! YOU are batty! The illegals are a NET DRAIN on society! WHERE do YOU think that money comes from to begin with? OK, so THAT reduces the net income to citizens, and costs them jobs, AND.......

            They require services and housing which drives up costs and reduces resources! ALSO, they may get "social security" without paying in a penny... SO, NET DRAIN!

            Steve
            I still have not heard your solution and BTW your economic theories stink for the middle class of America.

            You're also way off on your immigration stats.


            And I'm done talking about social security with you.
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            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              I still have not heard your solution and BTW your economic theories stink for the middle class of America.

              You're also way off on your immigration stats.


              And I'm done talking about social security with you.
              My solution is OBVIOUS!

              1. Let people have complete access to their own care(BTW this would lower my healthcare costs by over $1000 a year right here! The cost of this? **********NOTHING*********!!!!!!! And when I say it would lower MY costs, that is just an example! There are MILLIONS in my EXACT same position! There are others that would save even MORE! ALSO, care can be BETTER!)

              HOW? Let people have a LICENSE to ongoing medication(Will save over about $200/year just by not needing a prescription!) Let people DOSE themselves!(Will save the average person taking warfarin over $400/year) Let the people schedule and read tests THEMSELVES!(On one recent case, I had a limited time where I could do it. The final cost was over $1000 with NO benefit! If I could have done it MYSELF, the ENTIRE TREATMENT would have cost less than $500 and I wouldn't have to live with the result of the idiots I had to go to.) NOT BAD, HUH? OK, one change, NO COST! It would save a LOT! Maybe the UNIONS wouldn't like it, since they would get LESS work, and we would need fewer people!

              How about making school about TEACHING and LEARNING? COST? It would save a BUNDLE! Of course the UNIONS would NEVER go for it!

              How about limiting unemployment?

              How about NO FREE PHONES! You want one? FINE! It can come out of "welfare"!

              Speaking of which, how about giving select people AUDITED machines for EBT, and getting rid of money for welfare! LOWER COST! NO FRAUD! RESTRICTS CRIME!

              As for MEDICAID? How about the FDA doing what they CLAIM to do? It IS a MAJOR part of their reason for being there! If a doctor sets up an office, the FDA should go there and APPROVE their office and staff for a given class of business. This will limit a TON of fraud! When medicare, medicaid, ACA, whatever get a claim, the computer can simply email staff, and place a packet at a location. A system can then call the submitter and say "STOP DOING THIS! Our investigators will be there, or call you, to check this out and take appropriate action!"!

              Oh well, you get the idea...

              I didn't mention one stat, though even the current admins counts are pretty high. Not saying they are wrong, or even if they include 1/10th as many as they should be, but they are big numbers.

              And I guess it depends what you mean by middle class. These days, there are a lot that would have you believe that 99% are middle class even as they would make it sound like it is maybe less than 10%. It depends on the mood. All I am asking for is fairness.

              Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          - Get the 12-20 million illegals into the system so that they can help fill the coffers also.
          - Get the 12-20 million illegals out of the country so that they can stop being a drain on the coffers.


          Joe Mobley
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            - Get the 12-20 million illegals out of the country so that they can stop being a drain on the coffers.


            Joe Mobley
            Right. Opting for unrealistic fantasy over a plausible solution should really get this country moving, again. And folks wonder why we're suck in the mud.

            If it weren't so sad it would be laugh out loud funny.

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
              Unfortunately, the sad part is that it has become an unrealistic fantasy to expect law enforcement agencies to Obey The Law and throw ILLEGALs out and do everything possible to protect our borders.


              Joe Mobley



              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              Right. Opting for unrealistic fantasy over a plausible solution should really get this country moving, again. And folks wonder why we're suck in the mud.

              If it weren't so sad it would be laugh out loud funny.

              Cheers. - Frank
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              Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW Social security, and even medicare, were SUPPOSED to be programs paid for BY THE BENEFICIARY!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW the European community helped bolster the markets last week, and "the fed" said it is still planning on raising rates later this year. That may not be good. They have been trying to delay this for YEARS! They should have done it like a decade ago, and now is worse, but I guess they figure it is the lesser of two evils, and they are getting tired of the QE type mechanizations, The rating may even have gotten threats!.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author qotsa
    Gold, Silver and Oil are good choices to put your money in.
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