Led Zeppelin loses first court battle in "Stairway to Heaven" lawsuit!

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The plaintiffs allege that it really came from a Spirit song "Taurus," and that Led Zeppelin heard "Taurus" when they opened for Spirit in 1968.
Led Zeppelin loses first court battle in “Stairway to Heaven” lawsuit - Salon.com

Taurus by Spirit

Top 10 rip off songs:

  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I bet Willie Dixon is clapping from his grave...
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      I bet Willie Dixon is clapping from his grave...
      Yep. I believe he's mentioned in the top ten rip off video for a Muddy Waters' song that Zep also was sued for.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Yep. I believe he's mentioned in the top ten rip off video for a Muddy Waters' song that Zep also was sued for.
        Actually, I think it was 5 or 6 Willie Dixon songs LZ did without giving credit.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Actually, I think it was 5 or 6 Willie Dixon songs LZ did without giving credit.
          You are right. Here's a list of 7 songs including a few more of Willie Dixon's.

          7 Songs That Led Zeppelin Ripped Off : Exclusives : Music Times
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Wow. Their uncredited songs runs into the dozens actually. This site is all about samples and lists 27 songs Zep "sampled", all without credits I believe:

            Led Zeppelin's Sample-Based Music | WhoSampled


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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Wow. Their uncredited songs runs into the dozens actually. This site is all about samples and lists 27 songs Zep "sampled", all without credits I believe:

              Led Zeppelin's Sample-Based Music | WhoSampled

              Led Zeppelin Examples of Plagiarism - YouTube

              Led Zeppelin Plagiarism Part 2 - YouTube
              I listened to the first video, but not all of them. Here's Killing Floor, a Howlin Wolf song written by Willie Dixon also done by LZ...can't remember what LZ called it.

              But Wolf's version is one of my most favorite songs of all time. It's in the top 10 "most played" on my iPod.

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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                Here's Killing Floor, a Howlin Wolf song written by Willie Dixon also done by LZ...can't remember what LZ called it.

                But Wolf's version is one of my most favorite songs of all time.
                One of my favorites also. Hubert Sumlin, one of Hendrix's main influences, is great on guitar. This is one of those songs I remember from way back in the mid 70s that I knew then that LZ had "borrowed" heavily from.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                I listened to the first video, but not all of them. Here's Killing Floor, a Howlin Wolf song written by Willie Dixon also done by LZ...can't remember what LZ called it.

                But Wolf's version is one of my most favorite songs of all time. It's in the top 10 "most played" on my iPod.

                "Killing Floor (1964 Single)" - Howlin' Wolf - YouTube

                I saw a movie about Muddy Waters and the wolf could really howl and that harmonica player Little Walter could really blow.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  I saw a movie about Muddy Waters and the wolf could really howl and that harmonica player Little Walter could really blow.
                  Little Walter was the first harmonica player to go "electric" by using a mic when he played, a real innovative sound back then.

                  And IMO, Wolf has a very underrated voice. We hear the rough growl, but he also had tremendous inflection. Wolf was unique in that when he left Mississippi and went to Chicago, like so many of the other delta blues players, he arrived with a pocket full of money he saved from playing the Mississippi juke joints. He had something like $10,000 or $20,000 and a new car and he was proud of having his money. Of course, that money was worth much more back then...

                  He was also a real tough guy. He was 6'5" and 300 pounds and people say he was very intimidating.

                  Here's another Wolf song covered by a big time rock band, but Jim Morrison gives the Wolf credit...



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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Wow. Their uncredited songs runs into the dozens actually.
              Yep. Huge chunks of Led Zep's first few albums were thinly-disguised versions of early R&B numbers.

              As has been stated, it's not that the songs were copied - that's happened throughout the history of rock music - it's that Jimmy Page claimed the entire writing credits for himself.

              The band would have been just as successful if he'd been honest.


              ..
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post


                The band would have been just as successful if he'd been honest.

                I wonder about that. I mean, I knew they did this for a couple of their big hits but didn't realize it was to this extent. If they credited people for the songs, perhaps they would have just appeared to be a cover band and that would have affected their stature in the rock world.
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                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  I wonder about that. I mean, I knew they did this for a couple of their big hits but didn't realize it was to this extent. If they credited people for the songs, perhaps they would have just appeared to be a cover band and that would have affected their stature in the rock world.
                  I can only speak from my experience as a teenage fan of the band. At the time, I wasn't very much aware of most of those early R&B musicians - some I hadn't even heard of. And I think that was also the case for many of my contemporaries.

                  I remember some old sages at the time, complaining that rock music in general was ripping off the old blues artists and making it more palatable to a wider audience. We heard those critics, but didn't much care.

                  And don't forget that Page was actually a budding rock god before Led Zep, thanks to the Yardbirds.


                  Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    I can only speak from my experience as a teenage fan of the band. At the time, I wasn't very much aware of most of those early R&B musicians - some I hadn't even heard of. And I think that was also the case for many of my contemporaries.

                    I remember some old sages at the time, complaining that rock music in general was ripping off the old blues artists and making it more palatable to a wider audience. We heard those critics, but didn't much care.

                    And don't forget that Page was actually a budding rock god before Led Zep, thanks to the Yardbirds.


                    Frank
                    Led Zep was my favorite band when I was 16. Finding a couple of their big hits were very similar to old blues songs and also at the same time being introduced to blues did make a difference for me. I hardly have paid attention to them for the last 40 years.
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                    • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      Led Zep was my favorite band when I was 16. Finding a couple of their big hits were very similar to old blues songs and also at the same time being introduced to blues did make a difference for me. I hardly have paid attention to them for the last 40 years.
                      Yup, it's hard to explain the mania unless you were around then. It was crazy. Not only were they selling tons of albums, their manager Peter Grant was changing how music acts got paid for concerts -- demanding, and getting, huge money. From his obit in the Independent:

                      "More significantly, he was regarded as the most important and influential rock group manager since Brian Epstein. Grant changed attitudes within the music industry, so that attention was focused on the needs of the artists, often at the expense of the record companies, tour promoters and agents - who didn't always appreciate his methods. Grant had seen how early rock pioneers like Gene Vincent and Chuck Berry had been treated and was determined that Led Zeppelin would get their fair share of the profits. As a result, Led Zeppelin became extremely wealthy from the sales of millions of albums and concert tickets during their 12-year reign from 1968 to 1980."

                      OBITUARYeter Grant - People - News - The Independent
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      Led Zep was my favorite band when I was 16. Finding a couple of their big hits were very similar to old blues songs and also at the same time being introduced to blues did make a difference for me. I hardly have paid attention to them for the last 40 years.

                      My friends and I were introduced and went through one summer of Led and Pink. Yes it was a summer of ac*d.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    I can only speak from my experience as a teenage fan of the band. At the time, I wasn't very much aware of most of those early R&B musicians - some I hadn't even heard of. And I think that was also the case for many of my contemporaries.

                    I remember some old sages at the time, complaining that rock music in general was ripping off the old blues artists and making it more palatable to a wider audience. We heard those critics, but didn't much care.

                    And don't forget that Page was actually a budding rock god before Led Zep, thanks to the Yardbirds.


                    Frank
                    In the US, a lot of it was racial. White parents here wouldn't let their kids listen to the black blues musicians like Howlin Wolf, Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry, but it was OK for them to listen to white Brits, like the Beetles and Stones, play Chuck Berry music.

                    And speaking of LZ and The Yardbirds, LZ's first name for the band was The New Yardbirds.

                    But the real guitar god of the Yardbirds was Jeff Beck. And on his first album (Truth) he does a Howlin Wolf song and on the album says something like "It's OK, because I asked him (Wolf).

                    Jeff Beck and Rod Stewart: (I love how JB's guitar sounds like a black cat moan)

                    Howlin Wolf:



                    What's interesting to me is both Jeff Beck on Truth and LZ1 played another Willie Dixon song on their first albums, both released a few months apart... JB gave credit, LZ didn't.


                    JB's version (with Rod Stewart):


                    LZ:

                    Muddy Waters (Willie Dixon):
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    This makes me sad. I love Zepplin's music......but now have to wonder whose music it is that I really love. I will say - I like the way he does it more than any of the originals.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    And to be clear, "ripping off" isn't covering a song. It's taking credit for writing the song. Bands like the Rolling Stones (and many others) did plenty of songs by Willie Dixon. But they gave credit, whereas LZ didn't.

    I like LZ too, but never understood why they didn't give credit for many of the songs they covered.

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Wow ... never read this. Zep and Stairway is one of my favorites.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    MAN, how could ANY court claim they have a case? To do so would be to DESTROY SO MUCH of the musical industry, and other industries. Are there similar parts? OF COURSE! Are some parts maybe huge chunks of stairway to heaven? SURE! But look far enough and you could say that about most music, drugs, software, voices, movies, etc.... MY GOD, you can see a brand new movie and sometimes GUESS the outcome! WHY? Because there is SO MUCH COPYING!

    BTW I like stairway to heaven better. Taurus sounds WORSE than a popular song written by a popular group, that COPIED a players tune he used to tune his guitar. Although it was a good tune, the player called it "scrambled eggs"! HEY, he supposedly put words to it, and HERE is the first version,and/or its variant: Keep in mind, it was for a guitar only.


    Is THAT a copy? You can BET parts WERE copied!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    There's only one answer. Switch your allegiance to Blue Oyster Cult. They're back!

    https://screen.yahoo.com/popular/blu...130000595.html
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
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    Probably why Stairway was the only good song they ever made. lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Wow, thanks fro all the great music in this thread! I never heard of one or two of the artists posted, and now I get to discover some more great music!

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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Nope, LZ stole from The New Yardbirds, that aint Robert Plant sing!

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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Nope, LZ stole from The New Yardbirds, that aint Robert Plant sing!

      The Yardbirds - Dazed and Confused (720p HD) - YouTube
      This isn't really the New Yardbirds, since it's a 5 man band, with Keith Relf singing, and the date given in the video description is before the last Yardbirds concert.

      The New Yardbirds were a 4 man band. The transition from Yardbirds to the New Yardbirds to Led Zepplin was fluid, with members coming and going...

      Either way, it isn't really the band that "borrowed" the song, it was Jimmy Page.

      Led Zeppelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Kurt, you are correct. I knew that I was trying to make a too subtle attempt at humour by stating that ir wasn't Plant singing/





        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        This isn't really the New Yardbirds, since it's a 5 man band, with Keith Relf singing, and the date given in the video description is before the last Yardbirds concert.

        The New Yardbirds were a 4 man band. The transition from Yardbirds to the New Yardbirds to Led Zepplin was fluid, with members coming and going...

        Either way, it isn't really the band that "borrowed" the song, it was Jimmy Page.

        Led Zeppelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Here's another song done by LZ with a bit of controversy over copyrights. I believe LZ did give partial credit to Richie Valen's mom, but took much of the credit for the song:. And yes, that's the ULTRA cool Chuck Berry in the Valen's clip...


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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      If I'm understanding the article correctly, all it says is that the lawsuit wasn't thrown out of court, not that we're anywhere near determining if a case of plagiarism exists.

      I am not a lawyer, but I've been around the music business long enough to have a pretty good idea of what cases will and won't ultimately win in court.

      George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" lost its case because it was almost literally a note for note ripoff of "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons.

      In the case of Stairway to Heaven, we're talking about two riffs which are "similar" not the same and a song that, outside of that riff, is nothing like the Spirit song.

      In short, I would be stunned if Led Zep lost this one. What's dangerous if they do is this.

      I could list at least 200 songs with just as much similarity between them that could fall under the same umbrella. Riffs in rock music are as common as the C Major scale itself. If Zep lost this case, it would open up a potential pandora's box that may never be closed.

      And if you think I'm kidding, I'd be happy to post those 200 plus songs that sound so much alike. Certainly more so than Spirit and Zep.

      Personally, according to the way I interpret plagiarism laws, I don't think a case exists here and even if the courts feel it does, it can't win. Not without some serious repercussions throughout the music industry.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        If I'm understanding the article correctly, all it says is that the lawsuit wasn't thrown out of court, not that we're anywhere near determining if a case of plagiarism exists.

        I am not a lawyer, but I've been around the music business long enough to have a pretty good idea of what cases will and won't ultimately win in court.

        George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" lost its case because it was almost literally a note for note ripoff of "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons.

        In the case of Stairway to Heaven, we're talking about two riffs which are "similar" not the same and a song that, outside of that riff, is nothing like the Spirit song.

        In short, I would be stunned if Led Zep lost this one. What's dangerous if they do is this.

        I could list at least 200 songs with just as much similarity between them that could fall under the same umbrella. Riffs in rock music are as common as the C Major scale itself. If Zep lost this case, it would open up a potential pandora's box that may never be closed.

        And if you think I'm kidding, I'd be happy to post those 200 plus songs that sound so much alike. Certainly more so than Spirit and Zep.

        Personally, according to the way I interpret plagiarism laws, I don't think a case exists here and even if the courts feel it does, it can't win. Not without some serious repercussions throughout the music industry.
        Steven,

        What's your opinion on Valen's "Ooh My Head" and Led Zep's "Boogie With Stu"?

        From Wikipedia:

        The song is credited to "Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart/Mrs. Valens", being heavily based on Ritchie Valens' "Ooh, My Head".[2] Valens's publisher, Kemo Music, filed suit for copyright infringement and an out of court settlement was reached.[6] As Page explained:

        What we tried to do was give Ritchie's mother credit, because we heard she never received any royalties from any of her son's hits, and Robert did lean on that lyric a bit. So what happens? They tried to sue us for all of the song![7]
        Ooh My Head lyrics:

        Well, well,now,now baby
        Let's just go all night long
        Well, on,on,on,on,darlin
        I just want you-to-go-on more
        There won't be no tuttie fruiti
        No lolly pop,cmon baby just
        Rock, rock, rock

        Well, now, now, now, now, honey
        We gonna rock all night
        Well babe,babe,babe,babe,baby
        We're just gonna go fine
        Well on, on, on, on, darlin'
        Ooh, my head!

        Well, Bonie Moronie,Peggy Sue yeah!
        They ain't gonna be around no more
        Well,on now dit-a-little darlin
        We just gonna party some more
        Daylight,I love you darlin
        Ooh my head! (now let's go)

        Well now,now,now,now,baby
        Keep me rockin on an on
        Well I just reelin' till it's over
        Oh,just all night long
        Well,now
        Ooh my head!

        Alright,WAIL.....
        Rock it out.....
        Come on.....
        My head is tired!
        Boogie With Stu:

        Been in town, my baby, We just got to rock on
        Yeah, darling, we just got to go home
        I don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
        Come on, baby, just rock, rock, rock.

        Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah, honey
        We've been shakin' all night
        Oh, darlin', we just got to roll right
        Ooh, my head... rock on.

        Hey babe, hey babe [repeat]

        I don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
        Come on baby, just rock, rock, rock.
        Also consider the musical part of the song...

        In your opinion, is LZ correct in taking 4/5s credit for "Boogie With Stu" or should Valens get full credit?

        Anyone else have an opinion?
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        • Profile picture of the author Rick Rodd
          On a related note, the song Bittersweet Symphony of the Verve was taken from an unpublished song by the Stones. Still, this is Rock music category. There's so much samples, loops, tunes and whatnots going on in the EDM and RNB scene, so meh.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Steven,

          What's your opinion on Valen's "Ooh My Head" and Led Zep's "Boogie With Stu"?

          From Wikipedia:



          Ooh My Head lyrics:



          Boogie With Stu:



          Also consider the musical part of the song...

          In your opinion, is LZ correct in taking 4/5s credit for "Boogie With Stu" or should Valens get full credit?

          Anyone else have an opinion?
          Hey Kurt!

          Okay listened to them both.

          Here's the problem.

          Both are 16 bar blues songs. There are a gazillion of these in music that all sound almost exactly the same because of the structure itself. In that respect, neither of these songs are unique. Not even close.

          Where Zep screwed up was specifically using the lyric Ooh My Head in the song. That was a big mistake and a red flag almost begging somebody to make the comparison because until I heard that line, this was just another 16 bar blues song as was Valen's.

          Do I feel that essentially the use of one distinctive line merits a case of plagiarism?

          No more so than every frickin 50s and early 60s artist ripping off the same 16 bar blues riff and singing almost the exact same melody over it countless thousands of times.

          So Zep's only mistake was making it so damn obvious like putting out a sign on their front lawn "hardened criminal lives here."

          That was just plain stupid and possibly arrogant on their part.

          But overall, I've seen a lot worse that has never gotten noticed.

          So take what you want from it.

          My personal opinion? No case of plagiarism exists unless you want to sue the entire 16 bar blues industry.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Hey Kurt!

            Okay listened to them both.

            Here's the problem.

            Both are 16 bar blues songs. There are a gazillion of these in music that all sound almost exactly the same because of the structure itself. In that respect, neither of these songs are unique. Not even close.

            Where Zep screwed up was specifically using the lyric Ooh My Head in the song. That was a big mistake and a red flag almost begging somebody to make the comparison because until I heard that line, this was just another 16 bar blues song as was Valen's.

            Do I feel that essentially the use of one distinctive line merits a case of plagiarism?

            No more so than every frickin 50s and early 60s artist ripping off the same 16 bar blues riff and singing almost the exact same melody over it countless thousands of times.

            So Zep's only mistake was making it so damn obvious like putting out a sign on their front lawn "hardened criminal lives here."

            That was just plain stupid and possibly arrogant on their part.

            But overall, I've seen a lot worse that has never gotten noticed.

            So take what you want from it.

            My personal opinion? No case of plagiarism exists unless you want to sue the entire 16 bar blues industry.
            Hey Steven,

            It's more than just "ooh my head". It's also:
            "There won't be no tuttie fruiti
            No lolly pop,
            cmon baby just rock rock rock"

            In addition, here's why I think it's a blantant rip off. Forget the background music. Hum the singing of Valens and Plant in each song. The rhythm, pattern and melody are identical.

            If we just hummed the singing in each, we couldn't tell them apart. This isn't the case for all 16 bar songs.

            Thanks for your opinion..
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Hey Steven,

              It's more than just "ooh my head". It's also:
              "There won't be no tuttie fruiti
              No lolly pop,
              cmon baby just rock rock rock"

              In addition, here's why I think it's a blantant rip off. Forget the background music. Hum the singing of Valens and Plant in each song. The rhythm, pattern and melody are identical.

              If we just hummed the singing in each, we couldn't tell them apart. This isn't the case for all 16 bar songs.

              Thanks for your opinion..
              No, certainly not the case for all 16 bar blues songs but enough of them. If I had the time to wade through the ocean of tunes, I could easily post dozens that were "musically" almost identical.

              Lyrically? Well, that's another kettle of fish. And again, that's where Zep screwed up big time. Didn't catch the rest of the lyrics. Didn't have to. That one line was all I needed to be directed to the source. It doesn't take much.

              But plagiarism laws don't state that ripping off lyrics is a no-no but music is okay. The laws apply to everything, and that's my point. If we're going to make a case out of this or Stairway to Heaven, then we have to make a case against everything that falls into that same area. Otherwise, we are not treating everybody the same and fairly.

              That's why I say that if we go down this road and apply the law equally to everybody we WILL be opening up a Pandora's box.

              However, the reality, as Frank pointed out, is that nobody will really give a crap unless it's a high profile case.

              And that is what I feel isn't right.

              But since when has the law been fair and applied equally to everybody?
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                No, certainly not the case for all 16 bar blues songs but enough of them. If I had the time to wade through the ocean of tunes, I could easily post dozens that were "musically" almost identical.

                Lyrically? Well, that's another kettle of fish. And again, that's where Zep screwed up big time. Didn't catch the rest of the lyrics. Didn't have to. That one line was all I needed to be directed to the source. It doesn't take much.

                But plagiarism laws don't state that ripping off lyrics is a no-no but music is okay. The laws apply to everything, and that's my point. If we're going to make a case out of this or Stairway to Heaven, then we have to make a case against everything that falls into that same area. Otherwise, we are not treating everybody the same and fairly.

                That's why I say that if we go down this road and apply the law equally to everybody we WILL be opening up a Pandora's box.

                However, the reality, as Frank pointed out, is that nobody will really give a crap unless it's a high profile case.

                And that is what I feel isn't right.

                But since when has the law been fair and applied equally to everybody?
                I think they are separate cases. I have a good bit of uncertainty with Taurus and Stairway, either way. However, IMO Boogie With Stu and Ooh My Head are the same song and I feel strongly about this.

                I don't know about the legality of this, but I would also take into consideration LZ history of stealing songs when I consider Stairway to Heaven. I KNOW LZ's "You Shook Me" is the same song as Muddy Waters/Willie Dixon version. And I know on my old LZ album it gives credit to Page/Plant.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  I think they are separate cases. I have a good bit of uncertainty with Taurus and Stairway, either way. However, IMO Boogie With Stu and Ooh My Head are the same song and I feel strongly about this.

                  I don't know about the legality of this, but I would also take into consideration LZ history of stealing songs when I consider Stairway to Heaven. I KNOW LZ's "You Shook Me" is the same song as Muddy Waters/Willie Dixon version. And I know on my old LZ album it gives credit to Page/Plant.
                  It would not surprise me in the least if Led Zep actually did rip off a number of songs and tried feebly to make them sound different. After Milli Vanilli, nothing would surprise me.

                  But in a court of law, the evidence has to be compelling enough to issue a verdict of plagiarism. This is almost proven by the fact that so many songs DO sound so much alike and nothing is ever done about any of them.

                  As I said, if I had the time, I could make a very good case for a number of these songs equally as compelling as Valens/Zep and other songs they "ripped off."

                  My question is, then what happens to those other songs if we go down this road?
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                    As I said, if I had the time, I could make a very good case for a number of these songs equally as compelling as Valens/Zep and other songs they "ripped off."
                    Ahh. Now there's a unique business opportunity. You make cases for plagiarism in music and then contact the original song's writers, or heirs, and tell them you have the musical proof and will charge a small percentage of settlements to show them the case.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Anyone else have an opinion?
          I think Valens should get full credit for the song - the Led Zep version is clearly a derivative work.

          Again, I have to say that I don't have any problem with the principle of reworking existing songs, as long as the original songwriter is credited. That's even more important in this age of downloads in which writers are often getting next to nothing on copies of the original recordings.

          I disagree with Steven's assertion:
          If Zep lost this case, it would open up a potential pandora's box that may never be closed.
          The "Stairway" debate is a long-standing and high profile one. If proven, it might encourage a few other cases, but I doubt that we'd see an avalanche of lawsuits. And if the publicity were to prompt more crediting of sources, I say bring it on.


          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            I think Valens should get full credit for the song - the Led Zep version is clearly a derivative work.

            Again, I have to say that I don't have any problem with the principle of reworking existing songs, as long as the original songwriter is credited. That's even more important in this age of downloads in which writers are often getting next to nothing on copies of the original recordings.

            I disagree with Steven's assertion:
            The "Stairway" debate is a long-standing and high profile one. If proven, it might encourage a few other cases, but I doubt that we'd see an avalanche of lawsuits. And if the publicity were to prompt more crediting of sources, I say bring it on.


            Frank
            Hey Frank...

            I agree 100%. As a blues fan, I actually like LZ's version the best of the two, although I also like Valen's rock-a-billy version a lot. I just don't like LZ taking 4/5s credit for the song.

            And I agree with your earlier comment that LZ likely didn't have to take credit to become as successful as they did. It didn't seem to hurt the Stones or Beatles when they covered songs and gave credit.

            BTW, I actually love listening to different versions of the same song.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Steven,

          What's your opinion on Valen's "Ooh My Head" and Led Zep's "Boogie With Stu"?

          From Wikipedia:



          Ooh My Head lyrics:



          Boogie With Stu:

          Anyone else have an opinion?
          My exact thought while reading those two lyrics was that Plant must have been using some bad article spinning software. That's what it reminds me of. In fact, an article spinner probably could do a better job!
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            My exact thought while reading those two lyrics was that Plant must have been using some bad article spinning software. That's what it reminds me of. In fact, an article spinner probably could do a better job!
            I actually thought about running both sets of lyrics through Copyscape when I posted them here.

            Plant changed the most generic words, but then left "no tuitti fruiti no lollipop" and "ooh my head", which are the most unique phrases.

            Page saying "they tried to give her credit" is accidently funny and I think shows his real feelings, that giving credit is tough for him to do. Just give her credit, it really isn't that hard. He's basically saying that he was being generous by only stealing 80% of the song. Although, based on his past history, I could see why he felt that way.
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            • Profile picture of the author kilgore
              I'm hardly a musicologist, but I am a huge blues fan so this naturally gives me leave to share my opinions -- which undoubtedly are completely baseless and pointless. (But when has that stopped me from speaking up before?)

              Back in the early history of the blues -- I'm talking Robert Johnson, Blind Lemmon Jefferson, Son House, Charlie Patton, and the thousands of people nobody has ever heard of -- people used to copy each other all the time: tunes, lyrics, licks, whatever. Of course then, most music wasn't recorded, so (1) there wasn't nearly as much money in the music industry and (2) you couldn't prove copying regardless. And anyway, copying was just part of the way things were done. And of course, this wasn't just limited to the blues. I'm not sure that one of my favorite songwriters, Woody Guthrie, ever wrote an original tune in his life. Instead he "borrowed" tunes from traditional music, church music or pop songs.

              So in one sense, you could just say that Page et al were just continuing the tradition of adapting the blues -- and in that way keeping the blues alive. That said, Led Zeppelin probably made 3.6 gazillion times more than Howlin' Wolf ever did and you'd have thought they could have spread the wealth a bit, right? Which naturally makes me think of Bob Marley who went so far as to credit people who had nothing to do with the songs he wrote in order to share the wealth. Now there was a class act.

              Anyway, fun thread -- definitely made me go through my music collection to find some gems that I hadn't listened to in far, far too long!
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              • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                as much as I love Led Zeppelin, my opinion of them diminished when I discovered how many songs they've "borrowed" without giving credit -

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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Title of one of their songs sort of sums it up...

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

    Taurus by Spirit
    Taurus- Spirit - YouTube
    from 0:43:

    It's actually possible to sync both the arpeggio in the first and the rhythm in the second vid.


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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Interesting note: Plant and the Estate of John Bonham sued Lez Zeppelin (all female tribute band) and a Club (now extinct for other reasons) in Vail, CO for playing their stuff without permission.
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