90 year old faces jail for feeding homeless people.

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I just saw this and wondered what people thought. That man would have been knighted over here for doing what he does.

Ninety-year-old man faces jail for giving food to homeless people - Americas - World - The Independent
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

    I just saw this and wondered what people thought. That man would have been knighted over here for doing what he does.

    Ninety-year-old man faces jail for giving food to homeless people - Americas - World - The Independent

    From the article...


    Mr Abbott said: "One of police officers came over and said 'Drop that plate right now,' as if I was carrying a weapon."


    I wonder if the cop had his gun drawn.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      From the article...


      Mr Abbott said: "One of police officers came over and said 'Drop that plate right now,' as if I was carrying a weapon."


      I wonder if the cop had his gun drawn.
      Probably. I can't quite believe anyone needs to speak to someone of that age like that for feeding homeless people.

      It does seem a bit over the top.

      Why are there laws against feeding homeless people though? I don't quite understand the logic.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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    Yo, it's like feeding pigeons.

    Don't encourage the pigeons.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      Yo, it's like feeding pigeons.

      Don't encourage the pigeons.
      That's what I thought was the idea but I wasn't sure.

      Having said that a pigeon can fly for miles to find food whereas the homeless man only gets wings if a passer by buys him Red Bull and I've even found out to my dismay that that isn't actually true.

      On a serious note though, wouldn't the same homeless people likely come to those areas to beg? What I mean is, if they come to get food, they may not wish to stay after and it may take some time to beg the money to buy a lesser meal.

      Either way, telling a 90 year old to "Drop that plate now" proves the man has small manhood issues in my book. Jeesh, he's 90 and feeding homeless people, not selling crack.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I think heard the state of Hawaii is trying to give homeless people one way plane tickets but not to other Hawaiian islands.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I think heard the state of Hawaii is trying to give homeless people one way plane tickets but not to other Hawaiian islands.
      Fort Lauderdale?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        Fort Lauderdale?
        WHO KNOWS!? There IS a Hollywood florida, and a paris texas, though this DOES say florida!

        I think TL is trying to claim that Hawaii is trying to send people here. Apparently, there ARE places in Hawaii where one COULD settle, if they wanted to take the risk, and not be so close to people. If you are homeless though, and want to be in a city, Hawaii isn't the place to be. YEAH, they have a nice climate, but they tend to have a higher cost of living. So charities might be less common, and a homeless person may have more need.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    It's simply that we're not allowed to care - we're kept away from grouping via every means possible. It's dangerous for a gov bent on taking tyrannical control to allow people to have empathy, to band together - because there's power in numbers. In other news a home owner was arrested for throwing a party because people were freely dancing at his house. It's called a police state action in political philosophy or history classes. I'm hoping we just put the skids on it.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I saw that. It didn't say what the destination was. Oval office lawn would be a good place to start packing em in. Maybe if the politicians had to face the homeless face to face, they might start cutting their legislation that's taking our jobs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I have to be the grinch and wonder why link a UK site to report US business...then I checked US sites and it's clear. The link given doesn't give the whole story - just the "poor old man" part.

      Fort Lauderdale passed an ordinance late last month that included a slate of new regulations on where and how groups can provide food to homeless people. The vote made the city the 13th in the nation since 2012 to pass restrictions on where people can feed the homeless, according to a report by the National Coalition for the Homeless.


      The regulations enacted in Fort Lauderdale state that no two indoor feeding sites can be within 500 feet of one another or on the same block; outdoor feeding programs require a permit or permission of the property owner and must provide portable toilets; and outdoor stations cannot be within 500 feet of residential properties.
      In other words, the city will not allow a public park to be turned into a soup kitchen for the homeless. It will not allow a city park in a residential area to be turned into a gathering place for the homeless.

      It requires people who want to do charitable work get a permit that provides sanitation facilities as well.

      Most of the time these rules are passed in response to complaints from the people who live near the parks, take their kids to the park and who pay the taxes that support the parks.

      The Hawaii program was first reported over a year ago.
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      • Profile picture of the author anwar001
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I have to be the grinch and wonder why link a UK site to report US business...then I checked US sites and it's clear. The link given doesn't give the whole story - just the "poor old man" part.

        In other words, the city will not allow a public park to be turned into a soup kitchen for the homeless. It will not allow a city park in a residential area to be turned into a gathering place for the homeless.

        It requires people who want to do charitable work get a permit that provides sanitation facilities as well.

        Most of the time these rules are passed in response to complaints from the people who live near the parks, take their kids to the park and who pay the taxes that support the parks.

        The Hawaii program was first reported over a year ago.
        Your post helped me make sense of the whole incident. Till then i was wondering why there were laws to prevent feeding of homeless, poor people. But I think the whole story was not covered in the source mentioned by the OP. Important things were left out about the incident as well as about the law. So before we jump to any conclusions we have to research and find out the whole thing. Maybe that person was creating a nuisance for others by using public places and having many poor gathered in the name of distributing free food. It is a good act but should be done in a way that others are not disturbed or annoyed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I have to be the grinch and wonder why link a UK site to report US business...then I checked US sites and it's clear. The link given doesn't give the whole story - just the "poor old man" part.
        My apologies Kay, in future I'll only report anything outside of Britain with an appropriate link from the country where the news originated. Having researched further it is a one sided story.

        He's not really a poor old man though, he's the one feeding the poor old men. I don't feel sorry for him at all, I feel sorry for the homeless that now have to beg or steal or forage through bins to find food in that area. Unless of course there are other free feeding places that are not illegal in the area?

        I'm just saying now he's gone, do the locals really think the homeless have now 'gone' too? No they haven't, they're still there and now they have to think of ways to get the food they had.

        Most of the time these rules are passed in response to complaints from the people who live near the parks, take their kids to the park and who pay the taxes that support the parks.
        Yes I thought that would be the case. Sadly a lot of homeless people also used to live near parks, take their kids there and pay taxes that went towards the said park until something happened and led them to be homeless. Not all of them but many of them. We also have 9,000 ex-servicemen here who are homeless and they also paid taxes and put their lives on the line for this country and as someone that has lived without a roof over my head for a short while I can say I paid all my taxes before that too and lived in that area all my life so my taxes probably paid to up keep that park.

        Having said that perhaps you look after your army vets better than we do and I can appreciate people not wanting them congregating in parks and I don't see anything wrong with needing a license to feed them. I have since looked into this more and can see the laws involved, thanks for pointing that out. My point is though that when you feed people they come back, when you stop feeding them, what do they do then? What has getting rid of the man done for the general homeless issue? I just don't see how it'll just go away. Heck those people that live near the park and pay taxes for the park might just get burgled next time they take their kids to the park.

        I'm not saying this to rubbish America at all either. I'm just trying to see how this solves anything regarding homelessness. It'll be interesting to see if the homeless suddenly thin out in Fort Lauderdale. I just don't get the impression they will. I also suspect that the amount of people who complained might not be as high as the amount of people that will actually side with the old man now this goes viral.

        What he was doing was a very nice thing though, no matter how you look at it.
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  • Profile picture of the author ivanballardmkt
    I think heard the point out of Hawaii is trying to give abandoned people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Anwar,
    It is a good act but should be done in a way that others are not disturbed or annoyed.
    We ought to be disturbed.

    This "make the bad things go somewhere else so I don't have to see them" NIMBY crap is deserving of a response: Give them what they want. They want to be left alone, leave them alone. Boycott Fort Lauderdale.

    Take away all those tourism dollars and see how they like doing without. See how many of them end up on the street when their jobs go away. Then ask them if they still think it's a good idea to make it a crime to feed the hungry.

    Bast_rds.


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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


      See how many of them end up on the street when their jobs go away. Then ask them if they still think it's a good idea to make it a crime to feed the hungry.
      This is part of the issue. Sure some homeless are lazy, lots just want to sit around doing nothing, some are drop outs from society. Many more though just had a bad turn in life, some grief they couldn't cope with, a mental illness, an ex army veteran - Ordinary people just like those that complain about them.

      All these people that find them offensive, beneath them and want them out of their sight are probably just making the whole issue worse and they're only one bad incident away from joining them anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        It's simply that we're not allowed to care - we're kept away from grouping via every means possible. It's dangerous for a gov bent on taking tyrannical control to allow people to have empathy, to band together - because there's power in numbers. In other news a home owner was arrested for throwing a party because people were freely dancing at his house. It's called a police state action in political philosophy or history classes. I'm hoping we just put the skids on it.
        handing out meals to homeless people in a park on Sunday!

        Disguising. What's next, building cheap housing!

        And we wonder why zero point energy remains buried?


        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I have to be the grinch and wonder why link a UK site to report US business...then I checked US sites and it's clear. The link given doesn't give the whole story - just the "poor old man" part.

        In other words, the city will not allow a public park to be turned into a soup kitchen for the homeless. It will not allow a city park in a residential area to be turned into a gathering place for the homeless.

        It requires people who want to do charitable work get a permit that provides sanitation facilities as well.

        Most of the time these rules are passed in response to complaints from the people who live near the parks, take their kids to the park and who pay the taxes that support the parks.

        The Hawaii program was first reported over a year ago.
        Yeah, l get it that the homeless group in a park could lead to nasty issues. We tried free drug strange clinics over here, and it did work to a point, but it also lead to urinating on peoples front gardens, stolen property, so it looks heartless on the surface, but l would need to look at the numbers more closer before passing judgment!

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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          When you make the news about an activist - you turn homeless people into props.

          We have a food kitchen/food bank/shelter (cold weather only) in town here - and it exists because the people who run it were willing to work with the city.

          No one hangs around outside the building except during the 2 hrs food is being served. No one sleeps outside in that area - or the nearby park. The people who run this kitchen REQUIRE the homeless to meet the city's standards...and they do.

          There are places where you can't take your kids to a park without finding used needles or human waste on the ground. That's not acceptable. For some reason, we insist we can "solve" homelessness and that's crazy. It leads to not managing the problem - to not building safe, clean shelters or establishing more food kitchens in convenient places in cities.

          There are homeless who are out of luck - but also many who are homeless due to choice, addiction or affliction. There is no "average" homeless person as each has his own story.
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            For some reason, we insist we can "solve" homelessness and that's crazy.
            But we can help those that don't choose to live like that and that really is a very large number. Either way, all those people he did feed need to find food today and being homeless, they have limited options, some of which might impact those that complained about it. I'm saying removing him might actually make it worse.

            There are homeless who are out of luck - but also many who are homeless due to choice, addiction or affliction. There is no "average" homeless person as each has his own story.
            As I said Kay, there are 9000 ex service men homeless here, I'm sure we could do more for them and I doubt while in the army they had aspirations of living on the streets afterwards.

            I think I'm looking at this from a certain angle due to personal experience. I'm also looking at it more from the angle of those that didn't choose to be like that. It's also worth pointing out that many turn to drugs and alcohol after becoming homeless though of course many didn't.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Fort Lauderdale approves homeless feeding restrictions - Sun Sentinel

              When you read the reasons the city chose to add the new laws - it doesn't sound that cruel. All they are saying is you can't feed people on public property outside where there no facilities or in residential neighborhoods unless you have a church or building where you can serve meals indoors.

              After housing crashed we had tent cities of homeless families and there were volunteers who delivered food to those areas and many people here who donated food and money to help do that.
              They didn't have to find transportation to get to other areas - people took the food and help to the homeless. The goal was to help rather than to prove anything.

              At the same times, there's no argument that addictions are a high percentage in the homeless population. Addictions cost money and are the reason many are homeless. These people need help and support - but at the same time do you want to expose your children to this in a neighborhood park? You need to protect everyone - not only the homeless.

              If you live in the south you know the homeless population increases in the winter as people travel south for the warmth. I see it happen here every year so I'm sure it's more common in Florida.

              http://www.homelessworldcup.org/cont...ess-statistics
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            When you make the news about an activist - you turn homeless people into props.
            A man who has been serving food to the homeless for 23 years is hardly just an activist, nor are the homeless he's serving just "props."

            The mayor of Ft. Lauderdale who is all for this law says that feeding them doesn't solve their problems or address their issues. Oh, except that he hasn't done that either. Instead he resorts to the usual doubletalk.

            Fort Lauderdale Mayor Jack Seiler said the new ordinance is not meant to stop advocates, but to better serve the homeless.

            "We're not a city that lacks compassion or lack kindness," said Mayor Seiler. "We just feel that if someone is homeless on the streets of Fort Lauderdale, we need to get them off the street and in the right places where they can improve their position, their situation."

            Seiler said the city wants to help the homeless in a different way.

            "Let's try to work with who is on the street and why they're on the street and actually address the problem rather than just enabling them to just remain on the street and not receive the assistance they should be receiving," he said.
            Abbot says, "There are 10,000 homeless in Broward County, most of them in Fort Lauderdale, and there isn't a rug large enough to sweep them under."
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    • Profile picture of the author alistair
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Anwar,We ought to be disturbed.

      This "make the bad things go somewhere else so I don't have to see them" NIMBY crap is deserving of a response: Give them what they want. They want to be left alone, leave them alone. Boycott Fort Lauderdale.

      Take away all those tourism dollars and see how they like doing without. See how many of them end up on the street when their jobs go away. Then ask them if they still think it's a good idea to make it a crime to feed the hungry.

      Bast_rds.


      Paul
      Sorry but I'd be on the side of the NIMBY brigade. A few years back, where I live the owners of the towns only hotel were going to make it into a refuge for asylum seekers and refugees, that was until the local people threatened to burn it down first before allowing that to happen. I also didn't want a hotel filled with refugees right on my doorstep and thankfully it never happened. I also wouldn't want loads of homeless people queuing up to be fed outside my front door, so to speak.

      That's the reality in my experience. I used to belong to a fishing club when I was a kid. Nice little spot, 3 decent sized fishing lakes on the edge of town, quite the scenic setting. Then the local council decided to build a permanent gypsy camp right next door to it despite protests. I stopped going there shortly after as bikes were being stolen, cars broken into and rubbish like sofas, old tv's, babies nappies and basically crap strewn everywhere. Would I want a load of homeless people living next door to me, good or bad? No thankyou.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, I THOUGHT the same as many here, BUT.....

    1. The law prohibits sharing your meal. I could see that, since it is probably enough to deal with suppliers, but to deal with something someone may have been eating?
    2. He was apprehended in the open, apparently in a park. Technically, that would be against the law, because these people may crowd the park, and litter. There is a lot to consider. They may even have gotten complaints. He went to two public places that were likely popular also. Does he even have a PERMIT?

    The law says, in part, according to the article:

    The new regulations require groups to be at least 500 feet away from residential properties and food sites are restricted to one per city block, but charities have criticised the rules as forms of implementing social cleansing.
    That is NOT unreasonable in ANY way! If anything, it is overly permissive. Would YOU want a crowd within 500 feet of where YOU live? TECHNICALLY, that has been against the law in most areas for DECADES! That is one reason for ZONING! And one per city block? WHY would you need more than one per city block?

    BTW some people in my neighborhood have HUGE parties and LOTS of people park, ILLEGALLY on BOTH sides of the street, which is built for little more than 3 lanes o track, though it is SUPPOSED to be a two lane street! 3-2=1, DUH!!!!!!! One lane means LETHAL! The road turns, so the cars obscure the view ahead. Luckily, I only have one way I often go, and there are only a couple offenders, but I have resolved that the NEXT time it happens, I am going to honk my horn at key points, even if it is 2AM. There IS a valid reason that doing so can save THOUSANDS of dollars of property damage, and possibly save lives, one of which is MINE. But the fact that it would help relieve my anger, and upset the party and responsible people, is just a welcome addition. I could not imagine if someone had HUNDREDS of people lined up outside!

    BTW a city block is, on average, approximately 1/5th of a mile(1/6th of a KM)! SO saying one precisely in the center of each side of a city block would be akin to saying that the people should be about 500 feet from any street, outside of the street the place is on. THIS says one per block though, so I assume that means only one. If one were on the same side of each block, and you had to go around the block, you may have to walk as much as about 1000 feet to get to a particular one.

    GEE, I have walked FAR farther to get to a decent restaurant. I had one job where EVERY IT person parking in the main lot had to walk FOUR TIMES that far to go to work. They ALSO had to walk an average of 1000 to 3000 feet to go to one of the cafeterias. One of THOSE required navigating through various obstacles in an in building atrium. They LITERALLY had a real forest inside the building, and the cafeteria was tucked behind it.

    So YEAH, I can understand why they are doing this.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Well, I THOUGHT the same as many here, BUT.....

      1. The law prohibits sharing your meal. I could see that, since it is probably enough to deal with suppliers, but to deal with something someone may have been eating?
      2. He was apprehended in the open, apparently in a park. Technically, that would be against the law, because these people may crowd the park, and litter. There is a lot to consider. They may even have gotten complaints. He went to two public places that were likely popular also. Does he even have a PERMIT?

      The law says, in part, according to the article:



      That is NOT unreasonable in ANY way! If anything, it is overly permissive. Would YOU want a crowd within 500 feet of where YOU live? TECHNICALLY, that has been against the law in most areas for DECADES! That is one reason for ZONING! And one per city block? WHY would you need more than one per city block?

      BTW some people in my neighborhood have HUGE parties and LOTS of people park, ILLEGALLY on BOTH sides of the street, which is built for little more than 3 lanes o track, though it is SUPPOSED to be a two lane street! 3-2=1, DUH!!!!!!! One lane means LETHAL! The road turns, so the cars obscure the view ahead. Luckily, I only have one way I often go, and there are only a couple offenders, but I have resolved that the NEXT time it happens, I am going to honk my horn at key points, even if it is 2AM. There IS a valid reason that doing so can save THOUSANDS of dollars of property damage, and possibly save lives, one of which is MINE. But the fact that it would help relieve my anger, and upset the party and responsible people, is just a welcome addition. I could not imagine if someone had HUNDREDS of people lined up outside!

      BTW a city block is, on average, approximately 1/5th of a mile(1/6th of a KM)! SO saying one precisely in the center of each side of a city block would be akin to saying that the people should be about 500 feet from any street, outside of the street the place is on. THIS says one per block though, so I assume that means only one. If one were on the same side of each block, and you had to go around the block, you may have to walk as much as about 1000 feet to get to a particular one.

      GEE, I have walked FAR farther to get to a decent restaurant. I had one job where EVERY IT person parking in the main lot had to walk FOUR TIMES that far to go to work. They ALSO had to walk an average of 1000 to 3000 feet to go to one of the cafeterias. One of THOSE required navigating through various obstacles in an in building atrium. They LITERALLY had a real forest inside the building, and the cafeteria was tucked behind it.

      So YEAH, I can understand why they are doing this.

      Steve
      The thing is it does nothing whatsoever to solve the homeless problem. As I said those people that were being fed voluntarily by this man, where and how do you think they'll get today's meal? Beg? Steal? Go through bins? Is that better?

      As Paul mentioned there is this "I don't want to see them" attitude which is quite useful because that way they all become a dirty little tramp with no name and no life. Their issues are not important so long as one can't see them.

      Interestingly in your post which was 517 words long you didn't actually use the word homeless or homelessness, which is what I mean. People see the homeless as nothings with little regard for the fact many were once upon a time just like you and me or perhaps even fighting in the army so you could carry on living how you live. Some had mental issues, some may have been orphans. That's the sad bit, they are humans just like you and me and god forbid Steve, as I've said, there are many people out there now who are very happy and yet they are just one unpleasant turn in the events of life from becoming homeless too.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        The thing is it does nothing whatsoever to solve the homeless problem. As I said those people that were being fed voluntarily by this man, where and how do you think they'll get today's meal? Beg? Steal? Go through bins? Is that better?

        As Paul mentioned there is this "I don't want to see them" attitude which is quite useful because that way they all become a dirty little tramp with no name and no life. Their issues are not important so long as one can't see them.

        Interestingly in your post which was 517 words long you didn't actually use the word homeless or homelessness, which is what I mean. People see the homeless as nothings with little regard for the fact many were once upon a time just like you and me or perhaps even fighting in the army so you could carry on living how you live. Some had mental issues, some may have been orphans. That's the sad bit, they are humans just like you and me and god forbid Steve, as I've said, there are many people out there now who are very happy and yet they are just one unpleasant turn in the events of life from becoming homeless too.
        I SWEAR, I did NOT in ANY way fail to mention homeless, or any similar word, out of any bias,agenda, or design!

        Frankly, there are a LOT of ways to get food. I doubt I could EVER go through a bin, and am not asking that they do. In fact, I don't WANT them to. Did I ever say I did?

        It isn't so much that I don't want to see them, I don't want the disease, crowding, litter, filth. HEY, I try to be in a nice place, and pay to get a certain quality, and get the trash out of here. Think about it. That is my LARGEST EXPENSE! NOTHING else comes close, except taxes. HECK, the taxes on that other expense, ALONE, are over $6000/year, and that is AFTER I pay taxes on my income.

        And YEAH, I know I could conceivably be among their number one day. I strive to not ever be as bad as many here have claimed I am, but one fall or whatever could easily do me in. Still, I don't want ANYONE to have to deal with this garbage. I wish the homeless that could, and there are ************MANY*********** such people, would start being productive members of society. But YEAH, one of the STATED roles of government is things like this.

        Is it TOO much to ask that the homeless don't crowd, litter, spread disease, etc...? If you had to go to work, or a meeting, etc..., from your HOME, how would YOU like to navigate through a crowd of dirty people that have who knows what on them? I'm guessing you WOULDN'T!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Is it TOO much to ask that the homeless don't...
          It is a lot to ask. How can you keep yourself clean without facilities and running water?

          It's part of the problem - people often rise to what is expected of them. My thinking is you do no one any good by only giving to them and requiring nothing in return. They lose all dignity and self respect.

          So you provide meals in a church kitchen or similar - and require people to wash up before they eat - to clear their own messes - to show up sober. You provide facilities where clothes can be laundered once week - where a shower is a possibility.

          There is so much that could be done. Why not build dorms where each person has a locker and a bed with privacy partitions where good behavior (keeping your things clean, good behavior around others) earns you a safe, clean place to sleep and keep your stuff?

          Truth is, many of the homeless would not go to such a place or would not meet the qualifiers...but that would be their choice. The best we can do is help those who want to help themselves - and provide maintenance for those who don't.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            It is a lot to ask. How can you keep yourself clean without facilities and running water?

            It's part of the problem - people often rise to what is expected of them. My thinking is you do no one any good by only giving to them and requiring nothing in return. They lose all dignity and self respect.

            So you provide meals in a church kitchen or similar - and require people to wash up before they eat - to clear their own messes - to show up sober. You provide facilities where clothes can be laundered once week - where a shower is a possibility.

            There is so much that could be done. Why not build dorms where each person has a locker and a bed with privacy partitions where good behavior (keeping your things clean, good behavior around others) earns you a safe, clean place to sleep and keep your stuff?

            Truth is, many of the homeless would not go to such a place or would not meet the qualifiers...but that would be their choice. The best we can do is help those who want to help themselves - and provide maintenance for those who don't.

            You talk a lot about what "many" would do. I'm betting you don't know one person who is homeless - you know about their intentions and wants, though?

            IN case people don't realize it - our job market has been downsized at the same time the population is growing. We have one hella huge population of people who live in homes solely because they have relatives or friends that are able and willing to take them in.

            Addiction - drunkeness. Um......did anyone stop and think that these conditions are a result of being cast out of society rather than because of them? I've seen people fall. I've come very close myself. I can tell you one thing - there comes a point when you are juggling to get through that anything -- anything - else happens and your boat is going to capsize. What happens then? Well - people start looking at you like a loser, drunk, drug addict. They shun you as if you had the plague. They pull their children away from you when they stop to look or talk.

            You find it hard to keep clean - sometimes having to search garbage bins to eat. If you have a job it can be difficult to keep the job because it's hard to keep clean, it can be hard to get to and from work because there's no place to dive nearby. Charities give limited help - but when enough boats capsize at the same time, they are overwhelmed. Where I live, you get tossed, and social services gives you a tent. Serious. That's the answer. A f**king tent.

            If you aren't employed - you now have no home. No address. Possibly no phone (which was the point of Obama phones that all those that didn't need help screamed their lungs out about). AND - you have the task of staying presentable. Exactly how do you get work? Nobody will give you work without an address - and with background checks being extensive now, you don't just walk in and get hired so you need that phone.

            The whole time you are trying to take care of these simple issues, you have people either approaching you with pity or spitting on you for being garbage.

            Then you've got politicians who are busy with their new and improved forms of insider trading luxuries who think the homeless make them look really bad so they pass laws to keep the homeless packing out to elsewhere.

            How much do you take before you just want to get a buzz and forget it for awhile?

            Do you know the best way to help the homeless get jobs is to get them into a place to stay - they can keep clean and have an address, get better rest, etc. Yes - being on the street is a sure way to sleep deprivation, which can also lead to mental instability.

            We have a huge population of working homeless out where I am right now. Housing is up --- again. The average 2 bd apt costs $795 a month - jobs are mostly, and almost across the board, minimum wage, and there are very few that are full time. Most that are, are temp jobs. Renting a room, as I do, on it's own before the split in utilities is now averaging $500 bucks a month. Just for a room. Do the math.

            Kay - I know you've worked hard for what you have. I also think it's awesome that you have family that would have, and might have, given that hand up when needed. You are fortunate to move into the situation you are going to now. Very stress free and peaceful. I wouldn't wish anything other for you. I also think you lack empathy for what's going on in this country now because you've never faced it. Frankly, I hope you never do, because some of your beliefs about the extreme poor are very, very sheltered and I don't think you'd last a week on the streets.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              You find it hard to keep clean - sometimes having to search garbage bins to eat. If you have a job it can be difficult to keep the job because it's hard to keep clean, it can be hard to get to and from work because there's no place to dive nearby. Charities give limited help - but when enough boats capsize at the same time, they are overwhelmed. Where I live, you get tossed, and social services gives you a tent. Serious. That's the answer. A f**king tent.
              A tent is better than a cardboard box! If you keep saying NO, THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, you will eventually be asking for the presidential suite at a hotel. BTW I was only in a presidential suite ONCE! A HIGH PLACED manager for a LARGE project at a LARGE company that worked for a LARGE company, and traveled a LOT reserved the room too late, and it was all they had. They saw him associated with tens of thousands of dollars worth of business, and let him have it. When we had no place for a project conference, he invited the whole team to his place that included, among other amenities, a conference room. It was like a big house! The largest upgrade *I* ever got was at one place where I got a townhome styled room. I liked the hottub, but that was the only real difference.

              If you aren't employed - you now have no home. No address. Possibly no phone (which was the point of Obama phones that all those that didn't need help screamed their lungs out about). AND - you have the task of staying presentable. Exactly how do you get work? Nobody will give you work without an address - and with background checks being extensive now, you don't just walk in and get hired so you need that phone.
              You need an ADDRESS TOO!!!!! There ARE charities that cover this. HECK, I helped one out one time that had a GREAT plan! It could have spread WORLD WIDE! Done right, it would be a net benefit to all those donating resources! It was a NICE idea. Well, if I ran it, I would have GIVEN UP! WHY? Because the people that they were trying to help DIDN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY! They also worked against one another. HECK, I had a document that cost me over $150 that one of them just threw in the trash, OH, I got a cold from them also. YEAH, I decided to LEAVE. I haven't heard about it, so it probably stopped as so many do.

              Do you know the best way to help the homeless get jobs is to get them into a place to stay - they can keep clean and have an address, get better rest, etc. Yes - being on the street is a sure way to sleep deprivation, which can also lead to mental instability.
              ALL GOOD POINTS! I wish it were always that simple.

              We have a huge population of working homeless out where I am right now. Housing is up --- again. The average 2 bd apt costs $795 a month - jobs are mostly, and almost across the board, minimum wage, and there are very few that are full time. Most that are, are temp jobs. Renting a room, as I do, on it's own before the split in utilities is now averaging $500 bucks a month. Just for a room. Do the math.
              Well, on the BRIGHT side, when I started out, a 2 bedroom would cost about $700/month. That was LONG ago!

              Kay - I know you've worked hard for what you have. I also think it's awesome that you have family that would have, and might have, given that hand up when needed. You are fortunate to move into the situation you are going to now. Very stress free and peaceful. I wouldn't wish anything other for you. I also think you lack empathy for what's going on in this country now because you've never faced it. Frankly, I hope you never do, because some of your beliefs about the extreme poor are very, very sheltered and I don't think you'd last a week on the streets.
              Yeah, and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the streets like that either. I can imagine what it is like for most, and never said it would be easy. You have to guard your stuff, think about what you have to do for some unpredictable things, always be walking, etc....

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Richard,

    Know what's scary? We have more vacant residences in this country than homeless people. Many places have found it's cheaper for the state to provide them a place to stay than to pay for the costs of them remaining homeless. Humanitarian AND fiscally responsible.

    And still, we have nonsense like this.

    I read recently that it would take $30 billion to solve the problem of hunger, globally. The US alone spends a half trillion on defense a year. I wonder what it would do for our national security to take that project on? Or, better still, in concert with Russia and China?

    "We'll help feed you and give you tools. You work to create your own infrastructure and dig your own wells and make this thing sustainable. Then we'll leave and you have what you built."

    How many of our homeless who are there by bad luck or bad timing would leap to work with that sort of effort? Solve our problems by helping someone else solve theirs?

    Gee... That doesn't even sound complicated. Instead, we have old men and ministers being arrested for peacefully doing their part on their own.


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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steve,
    So YEAH, I can understand why they are doing this.
    Why does this not surprise me?

    I feel so sorry for those poor IT folks. They had to park their cars and walk their feeble, undernourished selves through secure indoor gardens to get to their jobs...

    Feh.


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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Steve,Why does this not surprise me?

      I feel so sorry for those poor IT folks. They had to park their cars and walk their feeble, undernourished selves through secure indoor gardens to get to their jobs...

      Feh.


      Paul
      Well, it DID seem to be up hill, though one of the cafeterias WAS down hill.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Kay,

    So, the answer to those issues is to make it a crime to feed people, during the day? To arrest peaceful people for possession of peanut butter sandwiches with intent to distribute?

    I'm not naive. I know some people will be on the streets no matter what society does. That doesn't mean the ones who want a way out shouldn't have some road to it. Or that we should leave our own to starve to avoid the vain discomfort of folks who don't want to see that life can get ugly.

    Hell, it might motivate them.

    I haven't seen anything in the news about the folks these people serve being disorderly. If that does happen, you deal with those people, you don't shut the thing down for everyone else.

    This isn't about activists and props. It's about human beings.


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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    All I have to say about this topic is Matthew chapter 25: 34-45 and Luke 10:25-37
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      All I have to say about this topic is Matthew chapter 25: 34-45 and Luke 10:25-37
      Do you happen to know the TRUE story behind "Luke 10:25-37"? It loses something if you lack society's reference, and don't read it carefully. OK, I will translate it, to make it easier to read....

      A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, Jerusalem implies he was jewish, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.

      A person professing that people should help such a person happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he avoided him with no concern.

      Also, a person, that went to the same temple(Tribe of levi), when he came to the place and saw him, avoided him with no concern.

      But a SAMARITAN, that went to another temple and the man from jerusalem reviled as a heritic, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.

      He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c], Apparently TWO DAYS WAGES, or like $360 today, and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

      So it tells a few things. But the overriding tale seems to be that you don't know who your REAL friends and neighbors are until things get tough. Of course jesus used it as kind of a teaching tool because they might have been friendly only to their friends and temple members but that "heretic" that they would have ignored came to the guys aid. And yeah, it is certainly true. And if I meet such a person, I will certainly consider it. If there is a huge group, I am not going to make them someone ELSES problem.

      BTW the british library describes a samaritan as:

      The Samaritans (from the Hebrew shomronim, the 'Observant Ones') are a religious and ethnic sect, claiming to preserve the scribal tradition of copying manuscripts of the Pentateuch. Some features of their faith are identical to Judaism (belief in one God, and in the Torah as God's word dictated to Moses) while others differ significantly (they do not accept Jewish laws, or the pronouncements of early rabbis in collections called the Mishnah and Talmud).

      The precise date of the Samaritans' split from mainstream Judaism is unknown, but it is likely to have been complete at the close of the fourth century BC. There are still a few hundred Samaritans living in modern-day Israel.
      That's almost like the way christianity is. In a way, Christianity is like what is described above, except the mishnah and talmud are replaced with the new testament. Of course, that changes a lot, since the bulk of jewish tradition and the like ARE in the talmud and mishnah. So it kind of gives you an idea of how different they could have been, and the feelings between them.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Not to get off the actual topic of this thread but the answer Jesus gave here was to a man looking to justify himself by asking who is my neighbor.

        To which Jesus basically replied, the dude you find stripped of his clothes and beaten half to death is your neighbor.

        I don't doubt that you whatever it is you know about the Bible but I'm ALWAYS suspect any one interpenetration when it's preceded with statements like in your first paragraph.

        Just say'n!


        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Do you happen to know the TRUE story behind "Luke 10:25-37"? It loses something if you lack society's reference, and don't read it carefully. OK, I will translate it, to make it easier to read....

        A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, Jerusalem implies he was jewish, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.

        A person professing that people should help such a person happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he avoided him with no concern.

        Also, a person, that went to the same temple(Tribe of levi), when he came to the place and saw him, avoided him with no concern.

        But a SAMARITAN, that went to another temple and the man from jerusalem reviled as a heritic, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.

        He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c], Apparently TWO DAYS WAGES, or like $360 today, and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

        So it tells a few things. But the overriding tale seems to be that you don't know who your REAL friends and neighbors are until things get tough. Of course jesus used it as kind of a teaching tool because they might have been friendly only to their friends and temple members but that "heretic" that they would have ignored came to the guys aid. And yeah, it is certainly true. And if I meet such a person, I will certainly consider it. If there is a huge group, I am not going to make them someone ELSES problem.

        BTW the british library describes a samaritan as:



        That's almost like the way christianity is. In a way, Christianity is like what is described above, except the mishnah and talmud are replaced with the new testament. Of course, that changes a lot, since the bulk of jewish tradition and the like ARE in the talmud and mishnah. So it kind of gives you an idea of how different they could have been, and the feelings between them.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          Not to get off the actual topic of this thread but the answer Jesus gave here was to a man looking to justify himself by asking who is my neighbor.

          To which Jesus basically replied, the dude you find stripped of his clothes and beaten half to death is your neighbor.

          I don't doubt that you whatever it is you know about the Bible but I'm ALWAYS suspect any one interpenetration when it's preceded with statements like in your first paragraph.

          Just say'n!

          I DID say it was only ONE message that conveyed. But he asked who the neighbor was to the person helped. The people said that it was the Samaritan. That was NOT because of the proximity, associations, or anything of the sort. If it WERE, it would be the other two. NOPE, he was a neighbor because he ACTED like one. One would hope that your REAL neighbors would come to your aid.

          It could also be said to indicate that such relationships shouldn't matter.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Kay,

    You can't compare the aftermath of a huge, visible storm with the general homeless/hungry population.

    For one thing, the folks displaced by Katrina were allowed to congregate in areas where they could be reached en masse. The general homeless population in most cities isn't. For another, "his house was washed away" is a socially acceptable - and comfortable - place to point your sympathy.

    "His mind is messed up by the killing we asked him to do" isn't.

    Why do you think these ministers and volunteers were trying to prove anything? Because they had the temerity to engage in unregulated benevolence? Because their help wasn't offered under the auspices, and with the permission, of some state agency?

    They're involved in a Christian ministry. What is more fundamentally Christian than feeding the hungry? What makes you think it's anything more than that?


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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Kay,

      So, the answer to those issues is to make it a crime to feed people, during the day? To arrest peaceful people for possession of peanut butter sandwiches with intent to distribute?

      I'm not naive. I know some people will be on the streets no matter what society does. That doesn't mean the ones who want a way out shouldn't have some road to it. Or that we should leave our own to starve to avoid the vain discomfort of folks who don't want to see that life can get ugly.

      Hell, it might motivate them.

      I haven't seen anything in the news about the folks these people serve being disorderly. If that does happen, you deal with those people, you don't shut the thing down for everyone else.

      This isn't about activists and props. It's about human beings.


      Paul
      I think that the answer is simple, carry a semi-automatic machine gun, (with a licence of course)!

      Although it would only take one homeless man to throw a peanut butter sandwich, (or other lethal weapon) at a police officer to cause a bloodbath!

      I was behind someone in AU, today that was driving his family about with a western hat on.

      I swear l felt like l was in Texas, but the steering wheel was in the wrong spot, and the kookaburras, didn't help!

      A mental note,not to pick a fight while in Texas, not even about the oil cliche!

      Darnit!

      This was a wine red Cadillac with the top off! No doubt it has had its fair share of tree hugging activist fatalities over the years!

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I didn't mention Katrina - I was talking about the economic housing problem - foreclosures, etc. A natural disaster is a different animal altogether - I know that.

      There was a mix here of people who lost their homes to the recession - but also many who were renting and the owner lost the rental home to foreclosure. Either way - the people were out of a place to live - rental priced skyrocketed here and tent cities were a reality just outside several towns here.

      What makes you think it's anything more than that?
      I think Mr Abbott has the best of intentions and he works in a church kitchen to feed the homeless. But I think he enjoys the challenge, too. He won a court case to be allowed to feed the homeless on the beach...now says he'll sue to be allowed to feed people in public outdoor areas.

      This is a high tourist traffic area of Florida. The court can force a city to allow someone to feed the homeless on the beach - or perhaps to allow him to feed the homeless in neighborhood parks.

      The court can't force tourists to return to an area that makes them uncomfortable -and the city council knows that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Kay,

    I sit corrected. Still, a mass disaster, of sorts. Not like the messy stuff that causes small scale loss of residence.

    Mr Abbott seems to enjoy taking a slap at the people who want the problem hidden. I suspect he's of the same mind I am on some of this. For a lot of the people complaining, the problem isn't that they don't want anyone doing it. It's that they don't want the reminder they're NOT doing it.

    Not to mention that publicity is the best way to encourage folks who don't know the scope of the problem to help with it.

    If the city doesn't want tourists to be uncomfortable, maybe they should do something more concrete about the problem rather than trying to hide it. Like, say, those dorms you mentioned. I'd wager there's a lot of empty industrial or commercial space in the area that could be converted to nice, comfy living areas.

    And I'd bet you could get some Habitat volunteers to do most of the work, too.


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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I understand the reasons the city wants to regulate this, and they are likely responding to complaints, both fair and unfair.

    What I don't understand is why the city doesn't work with the people trying to help the homeless rather than taking a heavy-handed approach. It seems to me there are a lot of politicians oblivious to the opportunity in front of them.

    Even the most callous political opportunist who has no concern for the homeless should recognize that being the catalyst who works out a solution that allows those who want to help to actually be able to do so without risk of arrest or the necessity to file lawsuits, would be a real feather in their cap for career advancement.

    Instead, it seems the shortsighted politicians think hiding the problem is better than solving the problem. Those who think that way don't deserve their position of leadership.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I understand the reasons the city wants to regulate this, and they are likely responding to complaints, both fair and unfair.

      What I don't understand is why the city doesn't work with the people trying to help the homeless rather than taking a heavy-handed approach. It seems to me there are a lot of politicians oblivious to the opportunity in front of them.

      Even the most callous political opportunist who has no concern for the homeless should recognize that being the catalyst who works out a solution that allows those who want to help to actually be able to do so without risk of arrest or the necessity to file lawsuits, would be a real feather in their cap for career advancement.

      Instead, it seems the shortsighted politicians think hiding the problem is better than solving the problem. Those who think that way don't deserve their position of leadership.
      Dennis I think it's more about getting rid of the homeless because they are a bad image for a tourist location. Those people feeding the homeless for the most part rely on donations of food and time to do what they do. The city knows damn well they can't afford permits or porti potties to comply.
      They did the same thing in Orlando for supposedly the same reasons. Orlando Bans Feeding Homeless Downtown
      But it's all about image for the tourists. Disney world has a tight grip on the 'image' of Orlando. I use to watch Cops all the time and have friends and relitives who live in Orlando. I asked them once why Orlando was never on Cops, they all told me the same thing. Disney won't allow it because it is bad for the cities image.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Dennis I think it's more about getting rid of the homeless because they are a bad image for a tourist location.
        I'm sure that's a big part of it, Thom, probably the biggest part of it. As Alaister stated, part of it is also people just not wanting it on their doorstep. Can't really blame them for that all that much, but those in power should work with the people trying to help, rather than just lay down some rules and calling it a day.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          I'm sure that's a big part of it, Thom, probably the biggest part of it. As Alaister stated, part of it is also people just not wanting it on their doorstep. Can't really blame them for that all that much, but those in power should work with the people trying to help, rather than just lay down some rules and calling it a day.
          I agree Dennis. If it where anywhere else that didn't rely on tourism I wouldn't of even brought that up.
          Setting regulations that because of the costs basically bans something is an old trick used by govts. at all levels for years.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cali16
            HeySal - really great post (#40 above). You did an excellent job of touching upon many of the primary and challenging issues faced by the majority of the homeless population.

            @Steve - You're really missing the point Sal was making about a tent. It's not that people want more and more. Rather, a tent provides no warmth, no running water, and no electricity. Not to mention, it also provides no protection (very limited protection from the elements, perhaps, but not from other people - you're still very exposed and vulnerable). It would be very difficult to get or keep a job if you're living out of a tent.

            @Whateverpedia - couldn't have said it better!
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I understand the reasons the city wants to regulate this, and they are likely responding to complaints. The complaints were likely both fair and unfair, ranging from legitimate issues like safety and health concerns to things like citizens not wanting to feel uncomfortable because they have to see the less fortunate.

      What I don't understand is why the city doesn't work with the people trying to help the homeless rather than taking a heavy-handed approach. It seems to me there are a lot of politicians oblivious to the opportunity in front of them.

      Even the most callous political opportunist who has no concern for the homeless should recognize that being the catalyst who works out a solution that allows those who want to help to actually be able to do so without risk of arrest or the necessity to file lawsuits, would be a real feather in their cap for career advancement.

      Instead, it seems the shortsighted politicians think hiding the problem is better than solving the problem. Those who think that way don't deserve their position of leadership.
      I hear you Dennis but what if the pol believes he will receive big negative pressure from a group that will claim the pol is helping out a bunch of freeloaders and they don't like it and/or they believe the city, county, state or nation can't afford it?

      That is only one of the factors possibly allowing this situation to persist besides the economy and possible complaints from people who are possibly acting like dicks - for whatever their reasons.

      I understand that homelessness can't be totally wiped out but it can and should be minimized and so should hunger.

      If this society can send people into space it can minimize the homeless/hunger problem in a way that will satisfy the locals, the cites, the counties, the states and the nation.

      After all as Paul said... what's more Christian than feeding the hungry?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    OH -- BTW - Utah is now refurbishing old apt buildings that were standing empty and giving apartments to the homeless. It's saving the state masses of money, and it's helping the homeless get jobs and take control of their lives again.

    Thumbs up for Utah.

    Thumbs down to Ft. Lauderdale, where all they are worried about is how convenient their humans are for the wealthy there.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    If you want to see the true measure of a man, watch how he treats his inferiors, not his equals. J.K. Rowling
    I've counted at least 3 people in this thread who would fail this test.

    Interestingly, Ms Rowling was once a "welfare queen". An unemployed single mother who lived off handouts from the taxpayers. Since then she has not only paid back whatever she received, she has also provided for hundreds of others who're in the same boat as she once was with the taxes she's paid.

    From her own mouth:

    When my life hit rock bottom, that safety net, threadbare though it (was), was there to break the fall. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it would have been contemptible to scarper for the West Indies at the first sniff of a seven-figure royalty cheque. This, if you like, is my notion of patriotism. Source: Billionaire J.K. Rowling: Here's Why I Didn't Leave The UK Even Though We Have High Taxes
    When I see people in this forum and elsewhere, who will never be in the position Ms Rowling is now - EVER!, blaming poor people for being poor, I wonder just how human they actually are. It's even worse when they claim that they're followers of someone who was crucified 2,000 years ago.

    I've no doubt they would've been the ones demanding that welfare payments be withdrawn from Ms Rowling when she was down.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      I've counted at least 3 people in this thread who would fail this test.

      Interestingly, Ms Rowling was once a "welfare queen". An unemployed single mother who lived off handouts from the taxpayers. Since then she has not only paid back whatever she received, she has also provided for hundreds of others who're in the same boat as she once was with the taxes she has paid.

      From her own mouth:

      When I see people in this forum and elsewhere, who will never be in the position Ms Rowling is now - EVER!, blaming poor people for being poor, I wonder just how human they actually are. It's even worse when they claim that they're followers of someone who was crucified 2,000 years ago.

      I've no doubt they would've been the ones demanding that welfare payments be withdrawn from Ms Rowling when she was down.

      Part of the stigma here is because there are families who have been drawing welfare for generations and never "do anything to get out of it". There's a pretty large misunderstanding about exactly how much you can do on welfare. Many of these families just plain gave up. In some places now they have daycare and schooling paid for those who want out of it. That helps - but a large part of the welfare mill here is that if someone gets a job and it doesn't completely make up for what they made on welfare, they lose all of their aid, so it's actually more harm to them to get a job than to stay on benefits. What many don't understand, is that it was designed that way to keep certain populations under control.

      Out here in some areas now there is a program that helps people actually find work - it pays for any certificates they need (even being a waitress requires certification out here), it pays for drug tests (in NV, most jobs require drug tests - and at least half of those employers make the worker pay for them themselves. They will reimburse if you pass - but where does a person who has no money get the money for a drug test in the first place? The program also will make sure they have a set of clothing suitable to get hired and the money to get to the interview and a little bit to allow them to get to work until they get their first paycheck.

      I've never been homeless (other than a week in which I was moving for a job and had a hard time finding a landlord who'd let me have my dog). I've been close enough to know all the catch 22s, though, and it's not pretty. Anyone that's never had to work out of catch 22 has no way to understand what it's like mentally and physically to do so.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        but a large part of the welfare mill here is that if someone gets a job and it doesn't completely make up for what they made on welfare, they lose all of their aid, so it's actually more harm to them to get a job than to stay on benefits. What many don't understand, is that it was designed that way to keep certain populations under control.
        That right there.
        Same thing happens on unemployment. If you work one day and report it you loose an incredible amount of money. I was just talking to a friend of mine who just lost his job and went to sign up for unemployment. He told me you have to report so much now that he told them to forget it. For example if you rake your yard or help a friend with theirs, you have to report that to unemployment for "your own protection"
        I liked the system S.S. has for people trying to get off disability. If you go back to work and make over 750 a month you report it and it's deducted from your 16 month return to work period with no reduction in benefits. After you put in 16 months (and they don't have to be in a row) you then loose your disability payments, but your claim is still open for 3 years. If during that time you have to stop working because of the original problem that put you on disability you automatically start receiving payments again.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I'm betting you don't know one person who is homeless - you know about their intentions and wants, though?
        You'd be very wrong about that - on many levels. I know the struggles people face when they have no solid ground under their feet and I know some can get past it and start over. I know some who never will.

        Whether it's a bed and a locker with a phone number and address people can use - or a studio apt...people have to be able to "land" somewhere before they can stabilize their lives.

        There is no reason many vacant buildings could not be rehabbed into rooming houses across the country - but many homeless advocates say that's not good enough. I say you have to start somewhere.

        But it's easy to ignore reality, too. In a city like Ft Lauderdale or many other coastal and southern areas - a high percentage of city revenue comes from tourists. Drive away the tourists and local businesses fail and govt doesn't have money to feed the homeless any more.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          The problem the city addressed was feeding 200 people or so in a public beach parking lot where there were no 'facilities'. That was 3 meals a day.

          Mr Abbot says this is his First Amendment Right and also was quoted locally
          "They didn't have the gumption to move in on us. They were afraid, afraid of public opinion," Abbott said.

          A local church neaby has offered to let Abbot used the church parking lot so perhaps that will solve the problem.

          Broward County's homeless numbers up - Sun Sentinel

          That area of Florida is not heartless and it doesn't lack facilities to care for the homeless.

          Broward County, FL Shelters, Homeless Housing, Halfway Houses
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            The problem the city addressed was feeding 200 people or so in a public beach parking lot where there were no 'facilities'. That was 3 meals a day.

            Mr Abbot says this is his First Amendment Right and also was quoted locally
            “They didn’t have the gumption to move in on us. They were afraid, afraid of public opinion,” Abbott said.

            A local church neaby has offered to let Abbot used the church parking lot so perhaps that will solve the problem.

            Broward County's homeless numbers up - Sun Sentinel

            That area of Florida is not heartless and it doesn't lack facilities to care for the homeless.

            Broward County, FL Shelters, Homeless Housing, Halfway Houses
            Your whole community was hit by a disaster, too. Nobody - but nobody is (or should be) stupid enough to hinder humanitarian efforts after a disaster. It would have not just been infuriating if they had - it would have been shocking. We saw some of that going on during Sandy - and NOBODY approved of it.

            Almost all communities have shelters. Out here in the land of half time, minimum wage employment across the board and $700 needed to keep a roof, they are over-run and have been for several years. That's why social services is giving away tents. For my money they should be kicking illegals out of subsidized housing and putting our homeless vets in there.

            ID is a major problem for some homeless. It's really just disgusting that someone is out of work and homeless because social services refuses to get the problem solved for people. WTF are we paying them for?

            I had a birth certificate from the hospital to get my driver's license in NV - they wouldn't accept it. I had to spend $50 to get the "approved" version from my home state. It makes me livid to know the same place is just passing out licenses to illegals who can't even prove they're from the US while telling me the docs I have aren't "approved".
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - the reason that so many don't take charities seriously is because they are run by people who have never been in need and have no clue how to address the real daily issues of being homeless. Some of them even force religious participation, and that's disgusting if you ask me.

    And - you're worried about people wanting too much because a tent isn't good enough? Are you even starting to be serious? Maybe being indoors during the cold season might be too much for someone to ask, huh? Kewl.

    I have no clue what your damned rant about a luxury suit was about in the middle of a post about homelessness. Are you completely that out of touch? Between your "tv experiences" rants and this one I am starting to think that you haven't actually been outside for years.

    It's getting cold out and we have homeless all over out here. A tent isn't that much help. It might be a little, but it's time to get people inside. Period. If it's too much to ask to get people inside for winter then we've become more fascist and more socioeconomically bigoted than I want to admit to being part of.

    I'm not a socialist - but I am not so out of touch that I can't see when socioeconomic discrimination becomes criminal. Socioeconomic mobility used to allow anyone in any circumstances to better themselves if they put the effort in. The state of fascism we've arrived at now does not allow upward mobility after you reach a certain point of destitution. It's way past time that we started seeing that anyone who wants a chance is provided the means to have one - whether it means shelter, food, documentation, or whatever. We can do it for illegals we can sure as well damned do it for our own people - many of whom fed their money into the system before they went broke.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve - the reason that so many don't take charities seriously is because they are run by people who have never been in need and have no clue how to address the real daily issues of being homeless. Some of them even force religious participation, and that's disgusting if you ask me.
      YEAH, the highest level person in this meeting that had any viable help to provide wasone of the ones that started to organize a multi denomination multi religion sectarian charity. Basically, the idea, that looked like it could take off, and was ALREADY done by several synogogues and churches, used their foodbanks, property, and resources to provide a decent short term home for homeless people. Now that I think about it, they DID provide tents, and have the families sleep in tents, but they were INDOORS! The idea was that they could use say meeting rooms in a church as a temporary residence, get cleaned up, clothed, and fed, and the CHARGE was that they be SERIOUS, and work to get a job(help was provided), and get out.

      [quote[And - you're worried about people wanting too much because a tent isn't good enough? Are you even starting to be serious? Maybe being indoors during the cold season might be too much for someone to ask, huh? Kewl.[/quote]

      I was saying that you should be happy with what you get. The more expense they have helping ONE person, the fewer they can help. And Actually, I HAVE had to live in hotels before for various reasons. I have been relatively lucky there. I DID stay at one hotel for like a week with NO power, and no heating or cooling. People in some countries/areas were instantly rendered homeless by things like katrina, and couldn't go elsewhere. So you can *******NEVER******* spend a majority of the areas resources on the POOR. When the time comes, and even the RICH are left homeless, the POOR will be affected ALSO! Without resources to recover, people can die, and the recovery can take longer.

      I have no clue what your damned rant about a luxury suit was about in the middle of a post about homelessness. Are you completely that out of touch? Between your "tv experiences" rants and this one I am starting to think that you haven't actually been outside for years.
      NOPE, I was outside just today. Sorry about the rant, just wanted to make a point.

      It's getting cold out and we have homeless all over out here. A tent isn't that much help. It might be a little, but it's time to get people inside. Period. If it's too much to ask to get people inside for winter then we've become more fascist and more socioeconomically bigoted than I want to admit to being part of.
      WELL, Walt disney had a dream of doing that. It is, today, little more than an attraction at walt disney world. Another person, here had a plan for that, but it was silly and turned out to be a scam.

      I'm not a socialist - but I am not so out of touch that I can't see when socioeconomic discrimination becomes criminal. Socioeconomic mobility used to allow anyone in any circumstances to better themselves if they put the effort in.
      That is still there.

      The state of fascism we've arrived at now does not allow upward mobility after you reach a certain point of destitution. It's way past time that we started seeing that anyone who wants a chance is provided the means to have one - whether it means shelter, food, documentation, or whatever. We can do it for illegals we can sure as well damned do it for our own people - many of whom fed their money into the system before they went broke.
      I certainly agree that the citizens and those that were productive HERE should come first. I always have. And HEY, if any other person says that about THEIR country, I am for THAT also. Mexico should certainly take care of THEIR citizens, and not send them here.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I SWEAR, I did NOT in ANY way fail to mention homeless, or any similar word, out of any bias,agenda, or design!
        I know Steve, you're a nice chap, I was just making a small point.

        If you had to go to work, or a meeting, etc..., from your HOME, how would YOU like to navigate through a crowd of dirty people that have who knows what on them? I'm guessing you WOULDN'T!
        Don't you think I'd be a bit shallow to think like that seeing as I've been there? If I had to navigate through a crowd like that I'd have no issue with it. I'd be very grateful to have that job or be going to that meeting. So you guessed wrong I'm afraid.

        Originally Posted by alistair View Post

        Sorry but I'd be on the side of the NIMBY brigade. A few years back, where I live the owners of the towns only hotel were going to make it into a refuge for asylum seekers and refugees, that was until the local people threatened to burn it down first before allowing that to happen. I also didn't want a hotel filled with refugees right on my doorstep and thankfully it never happened. I also wouldn't want loads of homeless people queuing up to be fed outside my front door, so to speak.
        Refugee's and asylum seekers have travelled across the globe and through beautiful parts of Europe to arrive on this island. Those that are homeless are a unique subsection of the homeless community. They have an agenda and it won't be long before you and I get to have our taxes used to give them a home. Standard homeless people, unlike asylum seekers and refugees don't have a mob of dodgy lawyers and the bleeding hearts brigade to help them get off the street. They also made a very conscious decision to travel all the way here for our generous benefits system and there lies the answer.

        No benefits, no more mobs of males with covered faces coming over here to take advantage of it. We can actually fix that problem and before any bleeding hearts say, "But where will they go?" - well they can go anywhere else on planet Earth, even here, you just can't live off tax payers money and you need to have or get a skill so you can work and contribute to the society you've decided to live in. Let's be honest too, if I need asylum or needed to be a refugee and leave England, there is Wales to the left, Scotland up North and if a boat permitted I could get to France or Ireland. I wonder what I'd do though if in a fictitious world I could go to say, Canada, where they provided a nice home, enough money not to work and a proper good life? I wonder if I'd still go there if they suddenly said I'd have to support myself. Nah, I'd stay in Ireland drinking the Guinness.

        I used to belong to a fishing club when I was a kid. Nice little spot, 3 decent sized fishing lakes on the edge of town, quite the scenic setting. Then the local council decided to build a permanent gypsy camp right next door to it despite protests. I stopped going there shortly after as bikes were being stolen, cars broken into and rubbish like sofas, old tv's, babies nappies and basically crap strewn everywhere. Would I want a load of homeless people living next door to me, good or bad? No thankyou.
        Gypsy's are not homeless though, they're travellers, it's a way of life. Local councils have made it harder and harder for them to find places to go so now they've got to find places for them. They don't want to be stationary, they're travellers but the local councils which we prop up are forcing them to be in one place so they, not the gypsy's, build them a permanent site, in your neighbourhood, without asking you. That is sadly an altogether different issue from voluntarily feeding the homeless.

        But of course you have the right to not want to see homeless people being voluntarily fed when you walk your kids in the park.

        It'd be a boring forum if we all thought the same.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          I know Steve, you're a nice chap, I was just making a small point.
          OK, thanks.

          Don't you think I'd be a bit shallow to think like that seeing as I've been there? If I had to navigate through a crowd like that I'd have no issue with it. I'd be very grateful to have that job or be going to that meeting. So you guessed wrong I'm afraid.
          Maybe our ideas of dirty are different. I didn't mean like a painter with paint on his clothes, or even a marine that failed an obstacle course, and had all the muck still on him. I meant more like people that had obviously not cared about the filth for a while. And I didn't mean a crowd like you would see on a busy street. Though even THAT on private property is something I wouldn't want. I meant like you would see on some big parades, or at conventions that invited a lot of people to do something NOW, and you would have trouble getting through even one layer, good luck with the several you may encounter.

          Still, you would want to do that potentially every day getting to your car, or something similar?

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Maybe our ideas of dirty are different. I didn't mean like a painter with paint on his clothes, or even a marine that failed an obstacle course, and had all the muck still on him. I meant more like people that had obviously not cared about the filth for a while. And I didn't mean a crowd like you would see on a busy street. Though even THAT on private property is something I wouldn't want. I meant like you would see on some big parades, or at conventions that invited a lot of people to do something NOW, and you would have trouble getting through even one layer, good luck with the several you may encounter.

            Still, you would want to do that potentially every day getting to your car, or something similar?

            Steve
            Sorry as the subject was homeless people I assumed you were talking about a group of homeless people. I wouldn't have an issue like that because I know what they're going through. It's rough on the streets, there are gangs of homeless men that band together for protection that then prey on others. It is a much, much harder life than most people think and that's before you think of the needs of food, water, some protection from the elements.

            I don't look down on those people, I pity them and I'm grateful I'm where I am now. I went out a few weeks ago and there was an old man on the street with a cup for money. It was a Friday evening, everyone was having fun, no one was even looking at him. There he was head looking at the pavement as all these people went about their night out with not a care in the world for him. I began thinking about how he got there, was he ex army? Had he lost a wife? Had some other twist of fate left him where he was? Perhaps he was happy there? I didn't know but I excused myself briefly and went outside. He was stone cold sober, didn't drink or take anything else, his name was Gary, he was 57 but looked nearer 70. He was a dentist but had a break down. He was committed but with care in the community he was released. Now he is in front of me.

            I bought him a take away meal and asked him where he could stay for the night and he mentioned a bed and breakfast place that charges but only to cover costs, it's a project to help homeless people. I told my friends (yes that's plural ) I'd be back shortly and went with him to the b&b. I paid for 5 nights for him and left him some money for food.

            I have never seen a more grateful person in my life and I had plenty of money left afterwards. I had a bloody good night too. He didn't smell either and I didn't after he finished hugging me.

            I can understand why people wouldn't want to do that, wouldn't want to even see them. To them they are all just 'homeless' people. To me, I know they're much more than that.

            I don't look down on them. They are far down enough without people not caring in the slightest about them.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Steven -

              That's why I posted a link earlier to the full list of services and agencies offering help to the homeless in that particular county - it's extensive.



              The addiction question is important - those addicted to drugs and alcohol need more than a meal and a job. More often than not from the cases I've known, the addiction comes first. It's usually the cost of the addiction in job loss and financial loss that leads to the homelessness.

              "The homeless" are not some huge group that have the same needs and desires that demand our help. There are families and individuals for whom homelessness is new and horrible. These people need jobs and help getting back into the mainstream of society and stabilizing their lives. They need to be able to earn their way out to keep their dignity and self-respect.

              There are those who choose to be without restrictions and without obligations and they need a different level of services to provide clean clothes, sanitation facilities and a safe, warm place to sleep.

              A third population is made up of the mentally ill and the addicted. They need the most in the way of support services but all the good will in the world won't make them better unless they choose to fight their addiction. They need support that keeps them alive and provides some level of comfort - there's not much more you can do except have services available to them.

              Not wanting the homeless to live in your public park or on the sidewalk in front of your house doesn't make you a bad person. I refuse to feel guilty because I've managed not to be homeless (though I've come way too close a couple times).
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                The addiction question is important - those addicted to drugs and alcohol need more than a meal and a job.
                ....

                A third population is made up of the mentally ill and the addicted. They need the most in the way of support services but all the good will in the world won't make them better unless they choose to fight their addiction. They need support that keeps them alive and provides some level of comfort - there's not much more you can do except have services available to them.
                This man, on his limited funding, does not address all of the issues of the homeless. His goal is to feed hungry people, the poorest of the poor. Nothing more. Addicted people get just as hungry as anyone else does. Surprise!

                He's already sued one county for the right to feed the homeless and won. He'll probably sue another.

                But I have a better idea for him. Instead of posing it as feeding the homeless, put up some red balloons and a sign that says "so and so family picnic." I'm assuming that it is perfectly legal to have picnics in Ft. Lauderdale on public property, the beach and parks, etc. Here's some places that offer picnic areas:

                Hugh Taylor Birch State Park, smack in the middle of the city is this 180-acre park, which offers a respite from city life with picnicking, camping, swimming and canoeing and a...

                Here's some more.

                When was the last time you went to a park in your town and enjoyed the trees, the foliage, the shade, the trails and all the other jewels our parks have to offer? This weekend live a little out of the beach box and plan a picnic with your family
                It's a fact of life, Kay that many people are addicted to drugs and are not homeless. In fact, they hold steady jobs, make house payments, play with their children. Some are quite famous and quite wealthy and some are geniuses. Some are celebrities and musicians, and some people you may not have known were addicts.

                Substance abuse is only one factor of why people are homeless, and as you can see in the links above, substance abuse alone does not cause homelessness. Some people are highly intelligent, wealthy and famous addicts.

                The fact that companies have shipped our higher paying manufacturing jobs overseas and left this country with the bottom of the barrel minimum wage service jobs that do not pay enough to support people is one of the reasons that people are living in poverty and forever on the edge of the cliff. Combine that with the lack of affordable housing and it's a no wonder that there are so many homeless.

                Then there's domestic violence and divorce. "Nationally, 50% of homeless women and children are fleeing domestic violence. As many as 3.5 million Americans are homeless each year. Of these, more than 1 million are children and on any given night, more than 300,000 children are homeless."

                Families are part of the homeless population. "While the general impression is that the homeless are primarily the chronic and episodic, those unfortunate individuals often seen living on the streets in the downtown areas of our cities, the fact is that more than half the homeless are families with children. The vast majority of these have been thrust into homelessness by a life altering event or series of events that were unexpected and unplanned for. Contrary to the belief that homelessness is primarily the result of major traumatic events or physical and mental disabilities, there are many top causes of homelessness in America."
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              Sorry as the subject was homeless people I assumed you were talking about a group of homeless people. I wouldn't have an issue like that because I know what they're going through. It's rough on the streets, there are gangs of homeless men that band together for protection that then prey on others. It is a much, much harder life than most people think and that's before you think of the needs of food, water, some protection from the elements.
              Yeah, I did mention that they had to guard things. I wouldn't want to try it for even a day. I meant homeless people, but they could vary from the occasional one that may find a way to appear normal to ones that grew up in it, and have no concern of appearance. And if there is food being offered, they WILL congregate, and may not want people going through the line, etc...

              I don't look down on those people, I pity them and I'm grateful I'm where I am now. I went out a few weeks ago and there was an old man on the street with a cup for money. It was a Friday evening, everyone was having fun, no one was even looking at him. There he was head looking at the pavement as all these people went about their night out with not a care in the world for him. I began thinking about how he got there, was he ex army? Had he lost a wife? Had some other twist of fate left him where he was? Perhaps he was happy there? I didn't know but I excused myself briefly and went outside. He was stone cold sober, didn't drink or take anything else, his name was Gary, he was 57 but looked nearer 70. He was a dentist but had a break down. He was committed but with care in the community he was released. Now he is in front of me.
              MY problem has been the way they have been with me, and those that merely ACT homeless. I used to give them money if I had it. At the time, I often carried money. One time I was chided, etc... because she said I OBVIOUSLY had money because I wore a suit. It was ironic, because I usually have FAR more money when I am dressed casually. I didn't have any money that day. I worked for charities, etc... And YEAH, I know that it is hard to pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you don't have any. That sounds like a joke, but it isn't. Few would hire a filthy guy also. So you DO need to get cleaned up, dressed in somewhat clean clothes, etc...

              I bought him a take away meal and asked him where he could stay for the night and he mentioned a bed and breakfast place that charges but only to cover costs, it's a project to help homeless people. I told my friends (yes that's plural ) I'd be back shortly and went with him to the b&b. I paid for 5 nights for him and left him some money for food.

              I have never seen a more grateful person in my life and I had plenty of money left afterwards. I had a bloody good night too. He didn't smell either and I didn't after he finished hugging me.
              That's a GREAT story. Hopefully he tried to get back into things. And yeah, I could imagine how grateful he would be.

              I can understand why people wouldn't want to do that, wouldn't want to even see them. To them they are all just 'homeless' people. To me, I know they're much more than that.

              I don't look down on them. They are far down enough without people not caring in the slightest about them.
              Yeah, I still think a charity on every block is more than enough.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              Sorry as the subject was homeless people I assumed you were talking about a group of homeless people. I wouldn't have an issue like that because I know what they're going through. It's rough on the streets, there are gangs of homeless men that band together for protection that then prey on others. It is a much, much harder life than most people think and that's before you think of the needs of food, water, some protection from the elements.

              I don't look down on those people, I pity them and I'm grateful I'm where I am now. I went out a few weeks ago and there was an old man on the street with a cup for money. It was a Friday evening, everyone was having fun, no one was even looking at him. There he was head looking at the pavement as all these people went about their night out with not a care in the world for him. I began thinking about how he got there, was he ex army? Had he lost a wife? Had some other twist of fate left him where he was? Perhaps he was happy there? I didn't know but I excused myself briefly and went outside. He was stone cold sober, didn't drink or take anything else, his name was Gary, he was 57 but looked nearer 70. He was a dentist but had a break down. He was committed but with care in the community he was released. Now he is in front of me.

              I bought him a take away meal and asked him where he could stay for the night and he mentioned a bed and breakfast place that charges but only to cover costs, it's a project to help homeless people. I told my friends (yes that's plural ) I'd be back shortly and went with him to the b&b. I paid for 5 nights for him and left him some money for food.

              I have never seen a more grateful person in my life and I had plenty of money left afterwards. I had a bloody good night too. He didn't smell either and I didn't after he finished hugging me.

              I can understand why people wouldn't want to do that, wouldn't want to even see them. To them they are all just 'homeless' people. To me, I know they're much more than that.

              I don't look down on them. They are far down enough without people not caring in the slightest about them.
              We have a homeless guy in town that has been trying for over a year to get an ID problem fixed so he can get a job. People here know him. He's a vet. He does alright in summer when he can just walk to the edge of town and there are woods to camp in - but tonight we've got an arctic chill moving in. 7 degrees.

              I will watch for him on my way to and home from work. If he's there, he's got a place to stay tonight. If he's not - someone probably already picked him up. When someone can afford an extra few bucks for an "odd job" he has work that he doesn't have to report for taxes, too.

              It's hard for everyone out here right now. People aren't able to give a lot of aid, but this man is known here now, and he won't be sleeping outside tonight. I wonder how many are. Just because the bureaucrats think for some reason it's okay to f*** with people - even if they are veterans. If I had the money I'd be getting this guy a lawyer so he could sue the crap out of whoever is keeping him from being able to get an ID. Enough is enough - especially when I have to speak spanish to be able to get any decent level job available out here so our illegals can be taken care of.
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              Sal
              When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
              Beyond the Path

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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                We have a homeless guy in town that has been trying for over a year to get an ID problem fixed so he can get a job. People here know him. He's a vet. He does alright in summer when he can just walk to the edge of town and there are woods to camp in - but tonight we've got an arctic chill moving in. 7 degrees.
                WOW! Is the ID problem because he doesn't have a residence? I hadn't considered that aspect, but I think all the government places want an address.

                It's hard for everyone out here right now. People aren't able to give a lot of aid, but this man is known here now, and he won't be sleeping outside tonight. I wonder how many are. Just because the bureaucrats think for some reason it's okay to f*** with people - even if they are veterans. If I had the money I'd be getting this guy a lawyer so he could sue the crap out of whoever is keeping him from being able to get an ID. Enough is enough - especially when I have to speak spanish to be able to get any decent level job available out here so our illegals can be taken care of.
                The government offices are supposed to be there FOR THE PEOPLE! VETERAN OR NOT, they should help out ANY CITIZEN, or LEGAL resident! If ANOTHER, non legal resident, person wants to get help, they should go to their embassy! That IS what they are there for.

                Steve.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Sal

    It's a similar situation down under. We have over 700,000 people on unemployment benefits, and at the best of times, only 140,000 jobs available. It's made even worse by the fact that not all of those jobs are full time. There's also the fact that some employers will not hire local workers. They'd prefer to bring in workers from third world countries so they can pay them below minimum wage with no benefits. These "imports" also have no union representation.

    Nevertheless, people on the "dole" are demonised as being scroungers, and are forced to jump through all sorts of hoops to get a payment. Meanwhile we have a Prime Minister who, despite being paid more than the P.O.T.U.S. (even allowing for currency exchange rates), who still claims expenses for his personal travel from the taxpayers.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    I trust my step is sure as I walk this tightrope...
    This is absolutely not a religious or promotional post.
    *****

    I want to offer an example of how these complex problems
    can be handled well, with the following simple principles:

    1. Help everyone you can-- but know you can't help everyone;
    2. Help them short term first, then long term.


    A particular organization in downtown Houston, TX USA
    starts by offering the homeless and those recently released
    from prison food & water, shelter, security, clothing, cleanliness.

    Along with this it offers counseling-- As mentioned in other
    posts, the homeless often have psyche problems, but they always
    have emotional challenges.

    It continues with Operation ID, in which the volunteers
    work on something that is almost always overlooked in other
    efforts to help the homeless: A great many have no ID
    or what they do have is not current, which is a basic
    requirement for any job.

    Often times, they do not have the resources to get their
    other forms of ID, Social Security Cards and Birth Certificates,
    so they cannot even get the State ID.

    Operation ID assigns a case worker to each individual
    who helps them through the entire process and often
    contacts the appropriate agencies to get the needed
    paperwork. Pictures are taken and IDs are created
    on-site.

    Watching them firsthand, I can tell you that when a
    homeless person holds that State ID in their hands
    for the first time, they are looking at themselves
    and their future in a very different light.

    Next, of course, comes job hunting assistance.
    There are always businesses willing to take advantage
    of the homeless, slaving them in overheated warehouses
    and paying them in fries (chips for you Brits).
    Horrible but true.

    This organization continues to assist its charges by helping
    them through the application process to get real jobs--
    Vital assistance, because most places these days
    require online applications of some form, but public
    Internet access is surprisingly difficult to find in
    the city of 4+ million people.

    All the while, at each crucial stage, every individual
    is "weened", strongly encouraged to take over more
    and more responsibility in their road back to a
    normal life.

    It doesn't end there, either-- There is an entirely
    separate group of volunteers who are poised and
    ready to help those that, despite their best efforts,
    begin the slide backward, whether it's because
    of something like drugs, or maybe they just aren't
    used to paying their bills on time yet.

    Not everyone makes it.
    More than they care to admit slips through the cracks.
    Again, not everyone can be helped.

    But it is a complete, superb system, and it works
    because of the superb people involved.
    And it's a model I believe could work anywhere,
    if only we had more of these kinds of people.

    People who care.
    People who understand.
    People who do, instead of sitting around talking bullshit.

    tl&dr version: ^^the last paragraph
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      I trust my step is sure as I walk this tightrope...
      This is absolutely not a religious or promotional post.
      *****

      I want to offer an example of how these complex problems
      can be handled well, with the following simple principles:

      1. Help everyone you can-- but know you can't help everyone;
      2. Help them short term first, then long term.


      A particular organization in downtown Houston, TX USA
      starts by offering the homeless and those recently released
      from prison food & water, shelter, security, clothing, cleanliness.

      Along with this it offers counseling-- As mentioned in other
      posts, the homeless often have psyche problems, but they always
      have emotional challenges.

      It continues with Operation ID, in which the volunteers
      work on something that is almost always overlooked in other
      efforts to help the homeless: A great many have no ID
      or what they do have is not current, which is a basic
      requirement for any job.

      Often times, they do not have the resources to get their
      other forms of ID, Social Security Cards and Birth Certificates,
      so they cannot even get the State ID.

      Operation ID assigns a case worker to each individual
      who helps them through the entire process and often
      contacts the appropriate agencies to get the needed
      paperwork. Pictures are taken and IDs are created
      on-site.

      Watching them firsthand, I can tell you that when a
      homeless person holds that State ID in their hands
      for the first time, they are looking at themselves
      and their future in a very different light.

      Next, of course, comes job hunting assistance.
      There are always businesses willing to take advantage
      of the homeless, slaving them in overheated warehouses
      and paying them in fries (chips for you Brits).
      Horrible but true.

      This organization continues to assist its charges by helping
      them through the application process to get real jobs--
      Vital assistance, because most places these days
      require online applications of some form, but public
      Internet access is surprisingly difficult to find in
      the city of 4+ million people.

      All the while, at each crucial stage, every individual
      is "weened", strongly encouraged to take over more
      and more responsibility in their road back to a
      normal life.

      It doesn't end there, either-- There is an entirely
      separate group of volunteers who are poised and
      ready to help those that, despite their best efforts,
      begin the slide backward, whether it's because
      of something like drugs, or maybe they just aren't
      used to paying their bills on time yet.

      Not everyone makes it.
      More than they care to admit slips through the cracks.
      Again, not everyone can be helped.

      But it is a complete, superb system, and it works
      because of the superb people involved.
      And it's a model I believe could work anywhere,
      if only we had more of these kinds of people.

      People who care.
      People who understand.
      People who do, instead of sitting around talking bullshit.

      tl&dr version: ^^the last paragraph
      That was genuinely lovely to read that. To say I'm impressed is one of the biggest understatements I've ever made.
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      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Richard,
    So you guessed wrong I'm afraid.
    Steve doesn't "guess." He assumes, asserts, and attacks. In that order. And without regard for previously established fact.

    Attempting to discuss any social issue with Steve is roughly as useful as arguing with a fern.


    Paul
    Signature
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Richard,Steve doesn't "guess." He assumes, asserts, and attacks. In that order. And without regard for previously established fact.

      Attempting to discuss any social issue with Steve is roughly as useful as arguing with a fern.

      Paul
      lol... arguing with a fern. I'll have to remember that before I hit quote next time I'm tempted. That's hilarious.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      You talk a lot about what "many" would do. I'm betting you don't know one person who is homeless - you know about their intentions and wants, though?

      IN case people don't realize it - our job market has been downsized at the same time the population is growing. We have one hella huge population of people who live in homes solely because they have relatives or friends that are able and willing to take them in.

      Addiction - drunkeness. Um......did anyone stop and think that these conditions are a result of being cast out of society rather than because of them? I've seen people fall. I've come very close myself. I can tell you one thing - there comes a point when you are juggling to get through that anything -- anything - else happens and your boat is going to capsize. What happens then? Well - people start looking at you like a loser, drunk, drug addict. They shun you as if you had the plague. They pull their children away from you when they stop to look or talk.

      You find it hard to keep clean - sometimes having to search garbage bins to eat. If you have a job it can be difficult to keep the job because it's hard to keep clean, it can be hard to get to and from work because there's no place to dive nearby. Charities give limited help - but when enough boats capsize at the same time, they are overwhelmed. Where I live, you get tossed, and social services gives you a tent. Serious. That's the answer. A f**king tent.

      If you aren't employed - you now have no home. No address. Possibly no phone (which was the point of Obama phones that all those that didn't need help screamed their lungs out about). AND - you have the task of staying presentable. Exactly how do you get work? Nobody will give you work without an address - and with background checks being extensive now, you don't just walk in and get hired so you need that phone.

      The whole time you are trying to take care of these simple issues, you have people either approaching you with pity or spitting on you for being garbage.

      Then you've got politicians who are busy with their new and improved forms of insider trading luxuries who think the homeless make them look really bad so they pass laws to keep the homeless packing out to elsewhere.

      How much do you take before you just want to get a buzz and forget it for awhile?

      Do you know the best way to help the homeless get jobs is to get them into a place to stay - they can keep clean and have an address, get better rest, etc. Yes - being on the street is a sure way to sleep deprivation, which can also lead to mental instability.

      We have a huge population of working homeless out where I am right now. Housing is up --- again. The average 2 bd apt costs $795 a month - jobs are mostly, and almost across the board, minimum wage, and there are very few that are full time. Most that are, are temp jobs. Renting a room, as I do, on it's own before the split in utilities is now averaging $500 bucks a month. Just for a room. Do the math.

      Kay - I know you've worked hard for what you have. I also think it's awesome that you have family that would have, and might have, given that hand up when needed. You are fortunate to move into the situation you are going to now. Very stress free and peaceful. I wouldn't wish anything other for you. I also think you lack empathy for what's going on in this country now because you've never faced it. Frankly, I hope you never do, because some of your beliefs about the extreme poor are very, very sheltered and I don't think you'd last a week on the streets.
      Excellent post Sal.

      Addiction - drunkeness. Um......did anyone stop and think that these conditions are a result of being cast out of society rather than because of them?
      I'd like to add that it's all too easy to blame homelessness on addiction or alcoholism. It kind of makes it a "well, it's your fault" thing then and it's easier for some people to ignore the problem. 25-40% of homeless are addicted to a substance and it begs the question also, which came first. Was it the addiction that caused homelessness or the homelessness that caused the addiction?

      At any rate, I can testify to the fact that addiction is not an incurable condition.

      One of the main ways in which the homeless remain dehumanized is by misunderstanding the homeless and making assumptions as to the causes and implications of homelessness. To humanize the homeless, we first have to understand who, statistically, the homeless really are without our cultural biases.
      Myths and Facts about Homelessness - Anawim Christian Community
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Richard,Steve doesn't "guess." He assumes, asserts, and attacks. In that order. And without regard for previously established fact.

      Attempting to discuss any social issue with Steve is roughly as useful as arguing with a fern.


      Paul
      You really do take pleasure in insulting me, and I have just taken it. I often never even gave a response. Though to YOU, it might seem I am arguing with Richard, I will acknowledge that I DON'T know him and even if I did, I DON'T know his sensibilities here, What I said I said because I believe it is still generally true.

      Outside of those saying things like pollute a private authoritative site to get more hits, or they provide/want help with spaming etc.... or they want to TAX people to death, etc... I haven't attacked. And what is wrong with asserting? As for assuming, you are accusing ME of assuming? MAN, people assume an AWFUL lot about me. Some has been down right asinine since it fit them better than it could ever fit me, and I have argued against it.

      A good example is how they claim I would throw out the constitution. I wouldn't think about that. I think it is a GREAT document as valid today as when it was written. It was obviously written by people that CARED! It was based on a template selected from "law of nations", so they not only had THEIR history, but the help of a person that STUDIED it. Although some would argue for a Article V constitutional convention, and I once thought it might be good, I have determined that is NOT a good idea. People now simply don't follow it, so any tweaks are senseless, and many would see it as a hindrance, and simply want to throw it out. You hear such things now from several on the supreme court! And I am NOT saying that I don't assume.

      As for supposed hate and the like, that people have attributed to some groups, I could post a lot of FIRST PERSON youtube videos that show REAL hate, and who it is against. I'm betting that most people know the truth and all, and are just choosing to ignore anyway.

      EVEN if I have yearly charges that I consider high, and drugs I must take every day, and nearly died once and am sort of on borrowed time, people feel I would rather hurt like 10%+ of the population than improve the situation. HECK, I even spoke about the expenses/trouble that KimW could have(I dealt with the accounting of those issues for others so I had some experience), and donated to his cause. I was glad he was finally helped. NO, I would LOVE it if we could improve the healthcare situation in the US. I am all for it, but real solutions are simpler and safer. Almost all the predictions I made about that YEARS ago came to pass. And a number of them have directly affected ME, so I know it isn't propaganda. And I actually USE it. But people will say it is propaganda, I had a "crappy" plan, etc.... because it was reported that people like Ried said so. YEP, but ***I*** assume. Even the predictions I made were an assessment from reading the bill, so I am certainly not claiming any special power.

      And I am curious. WHAT here is the significance of the difference between a brick wall and a fern? As for arguing with a fern? Some claim that being mean could hurt plants, but some say the extra CO2 can help. Just saying...

      I could say more.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    I can absolutely understand them making laws against doing this. I wouldn't want a bunch of homeless people camped out on my front porch either.

    What I DON'T understand is why these same people making the laws against this sort of thing aren't doing everything that they can do to FIX THE PROBLEM.

    How about opening up more shelters and soup kitchens? How about turning some abandoned buildings into apartment buildings?

    Go read this and tell me there isn't money somewhere for these people.

    http://www.fortlauderdale.gov/2012Bu...%20Section.pdf

    Ft Lauderdale is ranked 7th in tourism in the US. It's been named in the top 100 places to live and build a business. Tourist spend close to $10 billion a year there.

    There is absolutely NO excuse for not helping these people LEGALLY.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Having been homeless, and still officially (according to the VA) considered at-risk for homelessness, and seeing the comments about numbers of homeless vets - I thought I'd post the following.

    Although flawless counts are impossible to come by - the transient nature of homeless populations presents a major difficulty - the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that 49,933 veterans are homeless on any given night.

    About 1.4 million other veterans, meanwhile, are considered at risk of homelessness due to poverty, lack of support networks, and dismal living conditions in overcrowded or substandard housing.
    Source: National Coalition for Homeless Veterans

    There are efforts here in Wilmington to "remove the eyesore." From what I've heard, according to news and people who've attended city council meetings, large corporations here in downtown Wilmington are a driving force behind various efforts to move all the undesirable elements, and not just homeless people, out of the major legitimate gathering places such as major bus hubs, etc. These places are located pretty close to the large buildings where major banks are located. In case you're unaware, Delaware is a favorite place for corporations, etc, and they're here in force.

    It's been an eye-opener being here and having been homeless, staying in a shelter, eating at charity kitchens where I still eat every day. What's also interesting is all these charity kitchens are run by various churches and volunteers. Some of these places have been operating for 10, 20+ years.

    One thing's for sure, there's never any reason to go hungry here in Wilmington. And as a vet, I'm impressed with all the support I've received by the Veteran's Affairs dept. The support and help has made all the difference in my life. But I'm working to find employment and get things in order. The hardest part is that it just takes time. I'll be starting a temp job at the VA hospital within a few months, though. I'll take it of course if I don't find something else sooner.

    I've met all kinds of people, and there are almost just as many reasons for being homeless as there are people. Reasons you'd never guess. And there's a healthy percentage of homeless, here at least, with mental health issues.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      And I thought 9000 over here was unbelievable. Nearly 50,000 across the pond.

      That is a lot of ex servicemen on the streets.
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        And I thought 9000 over here was unbelievable. Nearly 50,000 across the pond.

        That is a lot of ex servicemen on the streets.
        Yes it is. I've met a lot of vets on the street. It's cool because homeless vets really make extra efforts to help each other. Once you say you're a vet, all kinds of cool things happen from other vets. One of my best friends, made here on the street, is an ex-Marine from NYC. Full-out NY accent and all. He's cool, been through hell but has a great heart.

        Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      Having been homeless, and still officially (according to the VA) considered at-risk for homelessness, and seeing the comments about numbers of homeless vets - I thought I'd post the following.



      Source: National Coalition for Homeless Veterans

      There are efforts here in Wilmington to "remove the eyesore." From what I've heard, according to news and people who've attended city council meetings, large corporations here in downtown Wilmington are a driving force behind various efforts to move all the undesirable elements, and not just homeless people, out of the major legitimate gathering places such as major bus hubs, etc. These places are located pretty close to the large buildings where major banks are located. In case you're unaware, Delaware is a favorite place for corporations, etc, and they're here in force.

      It's been an eye-opener being here and having been homeless, staying in a shelter, eating at charity kitchens where I still eat every day. What's also interesting is all these charity kitchens are run by various churches and volunteers. Some of these places have been operating for 10, 20+ years.

      One thing's for sure, there's never any reason to go hungry here in Wilmington. And as a vet, I'm impressed with all the support I've received by the Veteran's Affairs dept. The support and help has made all the difference in my life. But I'm working to find employment and get things in order. The hardest part is that it just takes time. I'll be starting a temp job at the VA hospital within a few months, though. I'll take it of course if I don't find something else sooner.

      I've met all kinds of people, and there are almost just as many reasons for being homeless as there are people. Reasons you'd never guess. And there's a healthy percentage of homeless, here at least, with mental health issues.

      Ken
      Banks and insurance companies ARE pretty well known for having LARGE buildings. They own a lot of other realestate that you might not expect. And such large buildings have a lot of traffic. Deleware DOES have a lot of corporations.

      I wouldn't be so callous as to call it an eyesore, but there ARE problems with HUGE amounts of people in subways and the like. It is bad enough that those waiting for trains and all must stay there, but to have ones, that AREN'T doing so, congregating is worse. Luckily, at least from what I have seen, and I don't believe I have been in delaware, most people doing similar things in subways and the like have stayed AWAY from the flow of people, like between escalators, along walls away from the trains, etc... So they can do something, or just beg, and people can easily pay them, and neither side is hurt.

      There ARE a number of programs for vets providing job assistance, loan assistance, etc... And there is at least one major project that I believe gives businesses a monetary incentive to hire veterans, and a number of companies do. I really do wish you the best of luck there. By ALL means, check with the VA about options open to you. There may be ones you never considered.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


        I wouldn't be so callous as to call it an eyesore

        Steve
        Hey Steve,

        I was being sarcastic with the eyesore comment.

        Re bank buildings - these are tall, large buildings with the name of the bank on top, the side, out in front, etc. Just seemed to me the buildings belong to those banks.

        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          Hey Steve,

          I was being sarcastic with the eyesore comment.

          Re bank buildings - these are tall, large buildings with the name of the bank on top, the side, out in front, etc. Just seemed to me the buildings belong to those banks.

          Ken
          And they MAY! I didn't dispute you. I just said they were one known for it, and they have other buildings as well.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Ken,

    If you don't mind sharing publically, maybe we can help...what's your situation?

    Do you have a roof over your head?

    Consistent access to a computer and Internet?

    A car?

    Cellphone?

    Food stamps?

    Can you do a WSO and need help with the payment?
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Hey Ken,

      If you don't mind sharing publically, maybe we can help...what's your situation?

      Do you have a roof over your head?

      Consistent access to a computer and Internet?

      A car?

      Cellphone?

      Food stamps?

      Can you do a WSO and need help with the payment?
      Hi Kurt,

      Thank you for this. My situation has greatly improved since returning to Delaware from Oklahoma. I went there, got my life saved courtesy of the Chickasaw Nation at their ultra-modern hospital paid for by the vices of others, casino profits, and had to return here for personal reasons. Bottom line is it's a helluva lot better being homeless here than Ada Oklahoma (pop about 15k along with other social issues I won't mention.)

      I've been living at the main YMCA building in downtown Wilmington since early June. It works for me. I was a complete mess when I returned. My physical health finally felt normal since treatment started last August in OK. I had lost 65 pounds, and I recently weighed-in at 200. I'm 6 ft 5 in, so weighing 160 pounds just doesn't look good on me. My psychological state was really bad. Much better now with treatment. Diagnosis was major depression, moderate.

      No car but really don't need one. I either walk or take the bus. I walk about 2-3 miles a day, and it's mainly done walking to the various charity kitchens to eat. I have to eat at different places to cover 3 meals a day, 7 days a week. But the walking is very good for my health.

      I hate dancing around. About my health - I developed Type 1 diabetes in early summer of 2012. It was untreated for over a year. No health insurance, barely making it cash-wise, getting evicted and being homeless, etc. I figured I could power through it and things would return to normal. Funny, isn't it?

      I finally explained everything to my sister in an email, and she sent me a bus ticket to go to Ada to live in her second home. She was there when I arrived and instantly knew something was wrong. My body was feeding on itself; no muscle mass at all. I could hardly walk. The doctors tested my blood sugar right away and it was close to 700, I think. Normal is around 100. They said my condition was near-fatal. Blah blah...

      The mystery is that people don't develop type 1 diabetes when they're 55. The doctors couldn't explain it.

      Back to living quarters...

      I was placed here at the YMCA under a program that requires me to take over rent payment as soon as possible. I'm not in danger of getting kicked-out. But I have to get work. I want to work and pay my way, anyway. It's what I've done all my life.

      Consistent access to a computer and Internet? -- Reasonable. There are several places where I can use a computer with web access. The only thing is they close in the early evening, holidays, etc. I want to get a laptop as soon as possible. The YMCA has wifi, plus I can do research during the day and write at night.

      I applied for a telecommuting customer service job that pays very well. Who knows if I'll get it, but I apply for writing gigs and anything else that's practicable. Transportation to out of state work is not possible.

      Cellphone? Yes, finally. Got what's called an Obamaphone. Free 250 minutes a month. I don't call anyone and no one calls me so it kinda works out. The VA calls me to confirm appts.

      Food stamps? Yes. But nowhere to cook. There's a microwave on my floor, but nothing in the way of all the things one needs to cook and eat. It's cool. Food's not a problem. But I get seriously tired of over-cooked pasta at those kitchens. All those meals are meant for the homeless, so the nutritional emphasis is on carbs (energy) which is really not the ideal diabetic diet. I don't worry about it.

      Can you do a WSO and need help with the payment? No, I don't think so. I have no idea what I'd do for a WSO.

      Thanks for asking, Kurt. I appreciate it.

      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        I hate dancing around. About my health - I developed Type 1 diabetes in early summer of 2012. It was untreated for over a year. No health insurance, barely making it cash-wise, getting evicted and being homeless, etc. I figured I could power through it and things would return to normal. Funny, isn't it?
        WOW! As for the TYPE I, I would imagine a number of things could cause it. Maybe even restless nights and a bad diet. It can REALLY mess with your endocrine system. But Type I or II, you have to find a way to manage blood sugar. HECK, damage to your pancreas can cause TYPE I.

        I finally explained everything to my sister in an email, and she sent me a bus ticket to go to Ada to live in her second home. She was there when I arrived and instantly knew something was wrong. My body was feeding on itself; no muscle mass at all. I could hardly walk. The doctors tested my blood sugar right away and it was close to 700, I think. Normal is around 100. They said my condition was near-fatal. Blah blah...
        An average as low as 120 is considered prediabetes, and they get concerned. One job of insulin is to convert sugar to fat. Another is to help move protein to muscles. So not having enough insulin can SIMULTANEOUSLY make you lose carbs you take in, lose fat, and use muscle tissue as fuel. And the extra sugar can cause blood vessel damage that can make you go blind, have nueropathy, get kidney damage, etc... And YEAH, you can die too. You will see a number of people with diabetes that have no feet. MOST of them are because of damage because they couldn't feel a danger. Just to show you I am not kidding:

        Amputation and diabetes: How to protect your feet - Mayo Clinic

        Of course, be aware of one thing. If you want to REALLY test it, and I would STRONGLY suggest you get a test kit, you should test it 2 hours after you eat(it SHOULD be at least CLOSE to 100, though anything over 70 and less than say 125 is ok), or right after you wake up, it should be about 99 or less.

        If you test within an hour or so, it COULD spike, and that isn't so bad.

        BTW you can often pick up a whole kit with EVERYTHING, including 10 or more tests for less than $40, from CVS, wallgreens, walmart, etc... After that, additional strips should be much cheaper, and the battery may last for years. They typically work with like .5ul of blood, which is about 100th the size of one drop. If you get the smallest lancet size(like 33gauge), it should be plenty, heal quickly, and be pretty painless.

        I was placed here at the YMCA under a program that requires me to take over rent payment as soon as possible. I'm not in danger of getting kicked-out. But I have to get work. I want to work and pay my way, anyway. It's what I've done all my life.
        It's nice that the YMCA does that.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          WOW!

          Of course, be aware of one thing. If you want to REALLY test it, and I would STRONGLY suggest you get a test kit, you should test it 2 hours after you eat(it SHOULD be at least CLOSE to 100, though anything over 70 and less than say 125 is ok), or right after you wake up, it should be about 99 or less.

          It's nice that the YMCA does that.

          Steve
          Hi Steve,

          I received a test kit with everything I need from the Chickasaw hospital. I have my insulin dose pretty well finely tuned. Every time I check my blood sugar, it's within a good range. So it's being managed well.

          I agree re the YMCA. They're pretty nice there.

          Ken
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

            Hi Steve,

            I received a test kit with everything I need from the Chickasaw hospital. I have my insulin dose pretty well finely tuned. Every time I check my blood sugar, it's within a good range. So it's being managed well.

            I agree re the YMCA. They're pretty nice there.

            Ken
            GREAT! You made it sound like you didn't care. I even had RELATIVES that had diabetes and managed it poorly,so I wanted to make sure you didn't throw your life away for such a minor cost. I don't have diabetes at the moment, but I am in TWO high risk groups(1: I am overweight, 2: I have relatives that have it) and often check myself.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              I don't have diabetes at the moment, but I am in TWO high risk groups(1: I am overweight, 2: I have relatives that have it) and often check myself.

              Steve
              It's good that you keep a close eye on your blood sugar.

              Without coming across like I'm preaching, not my intent, walking is great and I think a lot more powerful than people may realize. Just walk and slowly build-up. It's really great for circulation and helping the whole sugar metabolism thing.

              Seems like maybe you live a sedentary life. That's a real killer. Just take a break and go for a walk and develop the habit.

              Ken
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

                It's good that you keep a close eye on your blood sugar.

                Without coming across like I'm preaching, not my intent, walking is great and I think a lot more powerful than people may realize. Just walk and slowly build-up. It's really great for circulation and helping the whole sugar metabolism thing.

                Seems like maybe you live a sedentary life. That's a real killer. Just take a break and go for a walk and develop the habit.

                Ken
                Yeah, I am a bit TOO sedentary. HECK, I was trying to organize some things a couple weeks ago, and found that a bug somewhere destroyed a lot of my data. I tried for like a week to find a good backup, and ended up finding an old model to simply reconstruct like 80% of the STRUCTURE. Sometime this weekend I have to reconstruct the data. And last friday, I was going to go out with a new group yesterday, but I ended up getting injured, and don't want to start gushing blood in public. It has been a day already, and it hasn't properly sealed up. I almost went to the ER. The sealing problem has to do with where it is, and the size. Being on warfarin doesn't help. Warfarin slows down coagulation and reduces scab thickness and quality.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  Yeah, I am a bit TOO sedentary.

                  HECK, I was trying to organize some things a couple weeks ago, and found that a bug somewhere destroyed a lot of my data. I tried for like a week to find a good backup, and ended up finding an old model to simply reconstruct like 80% of the STRUCTURE. Sometime this weekend I have to reconstruct the data. And last friday, I was going to go out with a new group yesterday, but I ended up getting injured, and don't want to start gushing blood in public. It has been a day already, and it hasn't properly sealed up. I almost went to the ER. The sealing problem has to do with where it is, and the size. Being on warfarin doesn't help. Warfarin slows down coagulation and reduces scab thickness and quality.

                  Steve
                  Oh, go ahead and gush in public. No one cares.

                  Here are a few links I saved for research/writing purposes. They're about the dangers of a sedentary life.

                  Doctors Warn Sitting Disease Could Become The New Smoking « CBS Sacramento

                  Just taking breaks from being sedentary may benefit older adults

                  Get off the duff and get moving. But seriously, in my case I had to do it. No walk-no eat. Highly motivating.

                  I was a hurting unit the first few weeks with all the walking. I've been walking every single day since the first week of June. About 2-3 miles a day. I'm kinda proud of it, if I may indulge in it however briefly. My legs are in great shape, and of course I'm very trim even if I eat a lot of pasta at those kitchens. I'm not complaining about them because constant pasta is better than an empty stomach.

                  Anyhoo... walk, dude, every day. See if you can walk a mile to start, then just work that into your daily schedule. I think you have time. Then build-up to a mile in the morning and another in the late afternoon. Walk after you eat because it will really help with digestion, etc.

                  Ken
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

                    Oh, go ahead and gush in public. No one cares.
                    I mean someone could get blood on them, or blood could get on the floor. I haven't been out of here today, and generally watch it when I am walking. If I don't see a meaningful sign of recovery by tomorrow, I may go to the ER.

                    Here are a few links I saved for research/writing purposes. They're about the dangers of a sedentary life.

                    Doctors Warn Sitting Disease Could Become The New Smoking « CBS Sacramento

                    Just taking breaks from being sedentary may benefit older adults

                    Get off the duff and get moving. But seriously, in my case I had to do it. No walk-no eat.
                    Yeah, I know. I am not sitting around all day, etc... I generally walk around a LOT more than I have in the past 2 days.

                    I was a hurting unit the first few weeks with all the walking. I've been walking every single day since the first week of June. About 2-3 miles a day. I'm kinda proud of it, if I may indulge in it however briefly. My legs are in great shape, and of course I'm very trim even if I eat a lot of pasta at those kitchens. I'm not complaining about them because constant pasta is better than an empty stomach.

                    Anyhoo... walk, dude, every day. See if you can walk a mile to start, then just work that into your daily schedule. I think you have time. Then build-up to a mile in the morning and another in the late afternoon. Walk after you eat because it will really help with digestion, etc.

                    Ken
                    Glad to hear it.

                    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Ken,

    A car is good for a lot of things. It lets you get a job like pizza delivery. Not the best job, but you can get a few bucks in tips a day plus minimum wage.

    Also, a car saves you lots of time. Once you get a job, you may not have time to get to the soup kitchens. The foodstamps will come in handy in this case.

    Have you tried posting "Vet for Hire" ads on Craigslist for everything you can do? Be aggressive and post ads as often as CL allows. Don't put everything you can do in one ad. Instead, make multiple ads for each job. Handyman, dog poo removal, night watchman, car washing/detailing, junk removal (rent a Uhaul) etc. Use your basic SEO and copywriting skills. How about a "Starving Veterans Moving Service"?

    People make fun of "Obamaphones", but they really are essential for people trying to get back on their feet. IMO, it's one of the best ideas to help people in need. Sure, there's probably some abuse, but for those that need them, they are a real life saver.

    Keep checking this thread when you can...give me/us a little time to think of something...
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Hey Ken,

      A car is good for a lot of things. It lets you get a job like pizza delivery. Not the best job, but you can get a few bucks in tips a day plus minimum wage.

      Also, a car saves you lots of time. Once you get a job, you may not have time to get to the soup kitchens. The foodstamps will come in handy in this case.

      Have you tried posting "Vet for Hire" ads on Craigslist for everything you can do? Be aggressive and post ads as often as CL allows. Don't put everything you can do in one ad. Instead, make multiple ads for each job. Handyman, dog poo removal, night watchman, car washing/detailing, junk removal (rent a Uhaul) etc. Use your basic SEO and copywriting skills. How about a "Starving Veterans Moving Service"?

      People make fun of "Obamaphones", but they really are essential for people trying to get back on their feet. IMO, it's one of the best ideas to help people in need. Sure, there's probably some abuse, but for those that need them, they are a real life saver.

      Keep checking this thread when you can...give me/us a little time to think of something...

      Those phones really are essential and for the record...

      Lots of people think the current POTUS started the program to give away cell phones to the needy but that is not the case...

      This specific program, SafeLink, started under President George Bush, with grants from an independent company created under President Bill Clinton, which was a legacy of an act passed under President Franklin Roosevelt, which was influenced by an agreement reached between telecommunications companies and the administration of President Woodrow Wilson.

      Wilson Phones, anyone?

      And the program is funded by telecom companies - not the taxpayer.

      The Obama Phone? Fact Check.org
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Those phones really are essential and for the record...

        Lots of people think the current POTUS started the program to give away cell phones to the needy but that is not the case...

        This specific program, SafeLink, started under President George Bush, with grants from an independent company created under President Bill Clinton, which was a legacy of an act passed under President Franklin Roosevelt, which was influenced by an agreement reached between telecommunications companies and the administration of President Woodrow Wilson.

        Wilson Phones, anyone?

        And the program is funded by telecom companies - not the taxpayer.

        The Obama Phone? Fact Check.org
        Where do you suppose the telecoms get the money?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Where do you suppose the telecoms get the money?

          Steve
          From conducting business.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            From conducting business.
            Which IS........?

            And WHO gives them the money?

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Ken,

    How about running a Craigslist ad for something like "Hungry Vet Will Work for Laptop"? Maybe someone will trade you a laptop for some work. Someone may even give you one. You wouldn't be "begging". Don't be afraid to let someone help you. Explain how a laptop will help you earn money.

    You can also try something like Kickstarter, maybe to help you buy an old pickup? Pickups are great for helping you make money. Craigslist is free and there's a ton of businesses you can do with a pickup, using your marketing skills on Craigslist. Keep building a business and you'll be able to help other homeless vets with jobs.

    Also, with a pickup you can do a CL "arbitrage" and find things of value that are free or underpriced and resell them. You could even resell some things on eBay, if you are a good enough buyer. Maybe collect enough free stuff and work with a church that helps the homeless, and split the proceeds with the church?

    I'm sure there's some legal and practical snags with this, but I'll post it as it may give someone a better idea. Can you use Kickstarter to help fund a hot dog or expresso cart?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steve,

    It comes from the universal service fund, which ultimately comes from customers. Same fund that's responsible for making sure rural areas and low income people have access to the telephone system.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Steve,

      It comes from the universal service fund, which ultimately comes from customers. Same fund that's responsible for making sure rural areas and low income people have access to the telephone system.


      Paul
      Well, I'm sure it comes from other parts as well. The USF is such a relatively small part of the bill. Still, point made!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Ken,

    How are you doing with clothes, especially winter clothes?

    I do think there's potential with Kickstarter if we can come up with a viable business idea that will help you and other vets. If we can come up with an idea, the next step is marketing and promoting the Kickstarter campaign, then marketing and promoting the business.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Hey Ken,

      How are you doing with clothes, especially winter clothes?

      I do think there's potential with Kickstarter if we can come up with a viable business idea that will help you and other vets. If we can come up with an idea, the next step is marketing and promoting the Kickstarter campaign, then marketing and promoting the business.
      The clothing situation is kinda bleak. There are clothing banks and closets, as they're called, but men's clothing goes really fast. You have to kinda be there when it arrives and there's no set schedule, etc.

      Another thing with me is finding pants that fit. I'm tall with a smallish (girlish?) waist. I have one pair of pants, jeans, and the knee areas are shredding fast. But I'll be all right.

      I need to get a winter coat. But I think I just need to find a place that has them at no cost.

      Overall, I'll be good for the winter. It's getting cold here earlier than usual. Everyone keeps saying it's going to be a cold winter. Whatever. I'm an all-weather pedestrian.

      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        The clothing situation is kinda bleak. There are clothing banks and closets, as they're called, but men's clothing goes really fast. You have to kinda be there when it arrives and there's no set schedule, etc.

        Another thing with me is finding pants that fit. I'm tall with a smallish (girlish?) waist. I have one pair of pants, jeans, and the knee areas are shredding fast. But I'll be all right.

        I need to get a winter coat. But I think I just need to find a place that has them at no cost.

        Overall, I'll be good for the winter. It's getting cold here earlier than usual. Everyone keeps saying it's going to be a cold winter. Whatever. I'm an all-weather pedestrian.

        Ken
        Do you have a mailing address? If you do, PM your address to me.

        We're the same height, although I'm a litte more "filled out" on the X axis...

        I have some shirts and a jacket or two I can send you. I have a pretty cool, heavy black leather coat too, it you want it.

        Be sure to check out Craigslist free stuff every day.

        Also, check out the Goodwill Outlet store. They sell things in bulk and you pay by the pound. I actually have a sister that owns a vintage clothing store and she uses Goodwill Outlets to stock her store.

        Here's info about the Delaware Outlet and they roll out new bins every 90 minutes:
        The Magic That is . . . Thrift: Goodwill Outlet - You've Got A Friend In Me!

        Here's a video on how Goodwill outlet stores work:
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        The clothing situation is kinda bleak. There are clothing banks and closets, as they're called, but men's clothing goes really fast. You have to kinda be there when it arrives and there's no set schedule, etc.

        Another thing with me is finding pants that fit. I'm tall with a smallish (girlish?) waist. I have one pair of pants, jeans, and the knee areas are shredding fast. But I'll be all right.

        I need to get a winter coat. But I think I just need to find a place that has them at no cost.

        Overall, I'll be good for the winter. It's getting cold here earlier than usual. Everyone keeps saying it's going to be a cold winter. Whatever. I'm an all-weather pedestrian.

        Ken
        On the BRIGHT side, if you get a job, especially near thanksgiving, or some similar holiday, you can get a nice sale at a nice store, and get some jeans or something at a low cost. Although not really "white collar" material, it sounds like you would do better with something closer to "work pants" to limit the shredding problem. For something more whitecollar, or general sales, something more like dockers would be appropriate. Look around though, especially during a sale, because prices range from "HOW CN THEY SELL THIS" to "WHO WOULD EVER PAY SO MUCH"!!!! A shirt that may be the same, for example, might sell from $9 to maybe $200. Even general prices may be like $20 to $50.

        And don't give up. MOST pants seem to be bought from sale at sizes from about 30 to 40. Forget obesity statistics and the like. After about 40 ,sizes get harder to find and some stores may not even buy such sizes. I sometimes buy out the store with only 3-4 pairs!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Ken,

    Have you considered getting a bike? It's not the optimal time of year for riding one, but there's usually some good deals on Craigslist for decent bikes.

    Do the buses in Wilmington happen to have bike racks attached to the front of them? I wish Denver buses had that feature when I was younger. Seems like a great combo.

    BTW, growing up in Denver we would tie shoe laces with knots in them around our bike tires. The shoe laces acted like tire chains to give better traction in the snow.

    Also, I can give you hosting for a few domains. Start writing and become an "authority" on a topic that can be monetized and you can likely earn some decent money in 4-6 months. I suggested you write for yourself too a few years ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - for cripes sakes, soak it in hydrogen peroxide - it will sting, so cowboy up - then hit it with some super glue to close it. Don't completely seal it so it can drain then keep hitting it with hydrogen peroxide a couple times a day. If you're getting the right nutrients it will take around 4 days to heal completely.

    Ken - exercise is vital to health. My 90 year old father who is still active taught me that it is the most important thing you can do for yourself. So far from what I've seen and experienced, he's 100% right.

    When I got here to Central OR I was a bit of a wreck and got a physical labor job to build back up. Was just a little too good at it because now I'm being hammered to hell and want out. Problem is-- nothing else here pays well enough to transfer to and the load has become heavy enough it's working in reverse and breaking me down. Once I find anything that will pay well enough I'm out of this one, will get a dog and carry on with the physical via taking the dog out walking and playing.

    It's been a real juggle to stay afloat for a single woman my age, too - but managing. Not rich, but I don't need to be. Most things I love to do don't cost much, when at all. I wish I had something I could suggest that might help ya out. I know there's been times with organic food being so expensive that I'd actually walk in fields so I could graze on things like plantain, clover, violets, dandelions, etc just to make sure I got the right nutrients that hadn't been sprayed to hell and back in my system. Even now that I can at least afford organic foods, I still graze on anything edible when out anywhere I know it's growing without sprays. People think I'm crazy, but I'm 60 in a few days and not one health problem -- even the life long asthma doesn't get me.

    Anyhow - I'm in juggle mode financially myself right now - but if you know anything I can do that can be of help you - you know how to hit the "private msg" button.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Ya know? He doesn't have one form of ID to get the other form, visa versa, and so on. Out here if he were illegal he'd be in better shape than being a vet. Illegals are given anything and everything they want or need out here. There's illegals in subsidized housing and vets on the street. It's a nightmare and I think any official that is responsible should be thrown in jail for it. Period.

    This guy had his ID stolen. He's tried to find out if anyone else is using it but is getting no cooperation on any level from anyone. I didn't see him tonight. Haven't seen him in over a week and he's always around so I'm hoping he finally got it straightened out or that at the very least someone has taken him in. He's a nice guy and has kept a sense of humor throughout. It's very, very disheartening.
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    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author lptrendin
    Helping people has become a crime . It is very sad and unfortunate incident.
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