in order to avoid being poor you have to do three things:

64 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
  • |
William Galston, the former advisor to President Clinton, has found that in order to avoid being poor you have to do three things:

(1) graduate from high school,

(2) wait until getting married to have children, and

(3) wait until age 20 to have children.

Only 8% of people who do those three things are poor, compared to 79% for those who do not
Poverty and Culture

Joe Mobley
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    GREAT ADVICE! It is a pity that so few follow it.

    PLEASE don't tell me they PAID for that! #1? *****DUH*****! Number 2 and 3 are pretty obvious ALSO! I have spoken with a LOT of married people about this. I do little surveys on such things. The age the married at clustered around the low 20s. If they had kids, they had them AFTER the marriage. And MOST did fine.

    So WHY HIGHSCHOOL? Well, if you don't graduate, it shows SOME cultural or educational problem that WILL haunt you! Besides, employers won't like it.

    WHY MARRIAGE? It IS a commitment, and has expenses, so HOPEFULLY there will be some mutual agreements, and if one falls on hard times, the other can help.

    WHY wait until after 20? You can better assess your needs and hopefully have the means to provide for them. Before 18, you may be forever in poverty, and before 20, it isn't that much easier. FRANKLY, I would suggest closer to 23 or 24, ESPECIALLY if the mother is going to college.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668062].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    They forgot the one that got me.

    Pick your spouse very wisely - and STAY married. Divorce can ruin you.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668106].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      They forgot the one that got me.

      Pick your spouse very wisely - and STAY married. Divorce can ruin you.
      That's why I capitalized "HOPEFULLY". But YEAH! Of course the plans they laid out are all things that are easy to control. It could be YEARS before you see what a person is really like, and both have to want to stay married, If they made divorce laws more reasonable, it would ALSO help. I mean the idea that a person can get so rich through essentially FRAUD means that more bad marriages happen, and divorce is more likely.

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668150].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        What it comes down to is that preparation for life - and your lifestyle itself - may dictate your future potential.

        Not a popular view as it says YOU are in charge of your life.

        I'm surprised at the "20" age for having children...I'd think 30 might be better.
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
        ***
        One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
        what it is instead of what you think it should be.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668174].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I'm surprised at the "20" age for having children...I'd think 30 might be better.
          I found that really surprising as well, and agree that 30 would be better.
          Signature
          If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668195].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I'm surprised at the "20" age for having children...I'd think 30 might be better.
            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            I found that really surprising as well, and agree that 30 would be better.
            I'm sure it was just that the statistics support over 20 as bumping out of the "poor" category. I'd bet the statistics would show a high percentage of high earners in the over 30 category. Thus, a different benchmark would be used if the topic were things to do to be wealthy.
            Signature

            Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668256].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Yes, most in AU, blow their retirement and go on the pension!

              Then fall apart and become a financial burden on their family!

              They may not be considered poor, but get close!

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668605].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Not a popular view...
          Facts seldom are.

          Joe Mobley
          Signature

          .

          Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668796].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            I did all of the above and don't have any qualms with it at all.

            Of course I did high school and college courses simultaneously and continued taking courses after I was married and started my family being able to take classes during the day when hubby worked afternoons and night classes when he worked days. It worked out well for us.

            As to waiting to have children until 30, I personally shudder at the thought! I had mine at 22, 23, and 27. My brother waited until he was in his 30's and his two children are the same age as my two oldest grandchildren. I always think that I'll have much more time with my grandchildren than he will and that saddens me.

            I also liked having the energy to keep up with my kids and even energy to do things with my grandkids.

            Ha! I remember when I was 16. My beloved grama, God rest her soul, would always say, "Race me around the block." Lol! And I intend to do the same.


            Terra
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668942].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      They forgot the one that got me.

      Pick your spouse very wisely - and STAY married. Divorce can ruin you.
      And picking the wrong spouse can also ruin you, or make you. I've had it happen both ways.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669573].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post


    It's great advice for avoiding poverty in America while the marriage part of the equation can be dicey for those that get married and then divorced - especially females.

    And I also suspect that if the economy stays lackluster over an extended period of time those positive stat numbers will be lower no matter what people do.
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668909].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      It's great advice for avoiding poverty in America while the marriage part of the equation can be dicey for those that get married and then divorced - especially females.
      Well, the idea about females is sometimes because that is the way they want it. I mean if the husband wants the kids, or wants a big part, it would help. As for other things? The info is heavily skewed and just WRONG.

      As for the rest? Well, I DID say an unfair windfall for one can actually set the system UP for failure.

      But nobody said there were guarantees. The article even apparently admits an 21% failure rate. The 8% is apparently those where the poverty is temporary.

      And I also suspect that if the economy stays lackluster over an extended period of time those positive stat numbers will be lower no matter what people do.
      SURE, but they will drop slower and recover faster.

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9668960].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        I was 37 before I had my son - I will never regret that decision.
        Signature
        ---------------
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669470].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

    William Galston, the former advisor to President Clinton, has found that in order to avoid being poor you have to do three things:

    (1) graduate from high school,

    (2) wait until getting married to have children, and

    (3) wait until age 20 to have children.

    Only 8% of people who do those three things are poor, compared to 79% for those who do not
    Joe Mobley
    I think the statements are probably true. But they show me something different.

    They show me that people who are already poor, tend to act in a different way than middle class and wealthy people. It reads as though they make bad decisions, and start that habit pretty early.

    Poor people tend to marry very early. It may mean that they tend to make life changing decisions rashly. Some may drop out of high school because they are pregnant, or married a girl they got pregnant. I have no idea what the statistics are for that.

    But these statistics sound like "Wearing a shirt, while committing a crime, makes you 50% less likely to get caught"... which can also be seen as, "Stupid criminals that easily get caught, also tend to go shirtless".
    Signature
    One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

    What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669547].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      I think the statements are probably true. But they show me something different...

      But these statistics sound like "Wearing a shirt, while committing a crime, makes you 50% less likely to get caught"... which can also be seen as, "Stupid criminals that easily get caught, also tend to go shirtless".
      Haha! That sounds more like your "Quantum Claude Logistics" I've encountered here a time or two.


      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669610].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      I think the statements are probably true. But they show me something different.

      They show me that people who are already poor, tend to act in a different way than middle class and wealthy people. It reads as though they make bad decisions, and start that habit pretty early.

      Poor people tend to marry very early. It may mean that they tend to make life changing decisions rashly. Some may drop out of high school because they are pregnant, or married a girl they got pregnant. I have no idea what the statistics are for that.

      But these statistics sound like "Wearing a shirt, while committing a crime, makes you 50% less likely to get caught"... which can also be seen as, "Stupid criminals that easily get caught, also tend to go shirtless".
      Having some money in the family doesn't mean that much, Claude. I'm from a town where people had money, education, ambition. We didn't even have any poor in town. I think lower middle class is as far as it dropped and there weren't a lot of those.

      However - that money didn't make a lick of difference. I had around 5 friends pregnant before 20 (although only 2 of my class were pregnant before graduation). I married at 18 (when he asked me at the airport and said he could get 4 days leave and then we could live together in Europe for a year and if it didn't workout, well - at least we'd had the trip). LOL. Who could resist that one if they're even slightly adventurous.

      While I didn't have kids - that divorce cost me....although I still look back and to me I did the right thing for myself on that one.

      Picking a spouse, to me, is just a matter of the draw at certain levels. If someone is lying about who they really are just to land what they see as a "catch" for whatever psychotic little reason that think is a good idea - it's easy to take that fall. I've narrowly escaped a few times and got really slammed once. Hard. NOBODY saw it coming.

      However - the wealthy and middle classes have one thing that the poorer classes don't always have, and that's an upbringing with a value for education and at least a remedial idea of how to handle money. You don't learn that from poor, uneducated parents. Some people are fortunate enough to rise above the upbringing.

      I made a mistake of trying to make my last relationship work for around 6 months longer than I should have. I knew that if it didn't I was going to be terminally capsized. After a point it became obvious I was going to get tanked either way so walked on it. If not for my education I'd be on welfare today. I'm not doing that great yet, it's taken everything I've got plus a little help here and there to remain afloat, but I'm looking at better days ahead now - because, and only because, I had the value for education instilled in me as a kid.

      There is also the obvious that someone pointed out before though - with an economy in the shredder, people are getting tanked left and right at the time who would not have been in a normal economy no matter what they've done in the past.
      Signature

      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670015].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I've had a unique, to me at least, experience being homeless, living in a shelter for a while, and (still) eating at homeless/charity kitchens.

    I've noticed many people in this environment and general situation are not positive about much at all. There's a lot of blaming and animosity toward "the system, the rich, Washington (politicians)," and it seems life in general.

    Some of these people do work, but the jobs are not good in many, or most ways. But those that work are at least doing that. They don't make much at all and it's not enough to raise them out of what seems to be poverty.

    I listen 99% of the time and hear all kinds of things.

    Ken
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669665].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      209'ish views (as I type this) with only 8 clicks through to the article.

      This is a very interesting article and worth a look.

      For instance, the facts virtually eliminate racism as a valid excuse for poverty.

      Similarly, married black couples with college educations and dual incomes actually make slightly more than whites (Sowell, p52, 77).
      Racism against the Japanese in the early 20th century and during the time leading up to WWII was probably worse than what blacks today face. Whites tried to pay Japanese lower wages, but as it became apparent that the Japanese worked harder for less money, businesses with more white workers faced much higher labor costs than business with more Japanese workers. This led to a bidding war for Japanese workers until the Japanese were getting the pay gap was slightly reversed (Sowell, p114).
      Poverty and Culture

      Joe Mobley
      Signature

      .

      Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669714].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        209'ish views (as I type this) with only 8 clicks through to the article.

        This is a very interesting article and worth a look.

        For instance, the facts virtually eliminate racism as a valid excuse for poverty.

        Poverty and Culture

        Joe Mobley
        I guess I might be out of thanks. But YEAH, I doubt there are many companies that discriminate towards whites. Maybe 60% of my customers have the three levels of bosses above me filled with INDIANS! The former head of the US headquarters of one company was BLACK! I say FORMER head, because they created a role above him and put an indian there. The person under him for most of the people was an indian. Most of the people under him were Indians. Most of the workers were Indians. And that was an American subsidiary of a german company. Outside of the name of the company, and the history of the company, you wouldn't know it was german though. The DBAs were RUSSIAN. Anyway, that isn't unusual. The last company I worked at was over 60% indian. My boss was indian. HIS boss was indian. HIS boss was indian. It was a US subsidiary of a british company. I DID work at one company this year that was maybe only 20% indian, though they DID have a huge department in INDIA run by Indians. But THEY had blacks too. But you can't get much more different than an indian. The skin color is often close to a black, different holidays, customs, religion, language, etc....

        So it IS doable! Two guys, one named Ben Carson, and there is his brother Curtis. They both happen to be black, but all the cards were against them! They had a poor illiterate mother, though she apparently was smart. She DID do EVERYTHING wrong according to the three rules here, by the way! NO highschool, married at 13, and she definitely had curtis before she was 18. But she worked hard, and forced THEM to work hard. They got some food by harvesting crops for others for a percentage of the yield. So where are they now? BEN retired as a respected neurosurgeon. Curtis is a manager of a division of Honeywell, or at least a mechanical engineer, depending on how you talk to. And it looks like Ben might be running for President of the US, in the next election.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670067].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post


        For instance, the facts virtually eliminate racism as a valid excuse for poverty.



        Really? So what is the reason the poverty and unemployment rate is higher among blacks?
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670103].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Really? So what is the reason the poverty and unemployment rate is higher among blacks?
          There are many reasons, Tim. You can't pinpoint just one.

          I imagine one of the reasons is that they are only what? Three generations out of slavery? Due to that there are a lot of men that are indifferent to responsibility and family ties due to the emotional pain it caused them to endure.

          Imagine falling deeply in love with a woman, I mean head over heals in love and then one day, you are sold and torn away from her forever, either that, or you have to see your master basically rape her. And what about having a family with her only to see your family ripped away from you through the selling of slaves as commodities.

          It's quite easy to see how men hardened their hearts and moved away from being a good and responsible husband or father so as not to feel the emotional pain of it all. Mindsets were built up and they are hard to break.

          Their sons can then say, "My dad wasn't around, so why should I be? See what I'm saying?

          Due to this, the women had to be the fathers too and that is a tough job. They had to take on male qualities to be the "man of the family" and that in turn is a turn off to the males.

          It's a vicious cycle to break!

          I for one am very glad to see that mindset being broken and having the pleasure of knowing many successful black people and of calling many my friend.

          That cycle is slowly but surely being broken, but it's not there yet.

          Just my opinion here, but I think it has validity, no?

          Terra
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670126].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            There are many reasons, Tim. You can't pinpoint just one.

            I imagine one of the reasons is that they are only what? Three generations out of slavery? Due to that there are a lot of men that are indifferent to responsibility and family ties due to the emotional pain it caused them to endure.

            Imagine falling deeply in love with a woman, I mean head over heals in love and then one day, you are sold and torn away from her forever, either that, or you have to see your master basically rape her. And what about having a family with her only to see your family ripped away from you through the selling of slaves as commodities.

            It's quite easy to see how men hardened their hearts and moved away from being a good and responsible husband or father so as not to feel the emotional pain of it all. Mindsets were built up and they are hard to break.

            Their sons can then say, "My dad wasn't around, so why should I be? See what I'm saying?

            Due to this, the women had to be the fathers too and that is a tough job. They had to take on male qualities to be the "man of the family" and that in turn is a turn off to the males.

            It's a vicious cycle to break!

            I for one am very glad to see that mindset being broken and having the pleasure of knowing many successful black people and of calling many my friend.

            That cycle is slowly but surely being broken, but it's not there yet.

            Just my opinion here, but I think it has validity, no?

            Terra
            This is an interesting take.

            How did you come to this opinion, if you don't mind me asking?
            I am just really curious and want to cogitate on it some more.

            Dan
            Signature

            "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670291].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

              This is an interesting take.

              How did you come to this opinion, if you don't mind me asking?
              I am just really curious and want to cogitate on it some more.

              Dan
              I actually did a paper on this in college. I thought long and hard and tried to mentally get in to character, go back in time in my mind, and feel and experience what they did and try to get an unbiased understanding of the whole thing.

              It's really hard to explain. I did a lot of research and reading of autobiographies and accounts of history too. It was sort of like getting into character for a role I would play for a skit or movie, if that helps at all.

              By the way, I got an A+ on my paper.

              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              3 generations? Really? It's been over 150 years. It's been 7 generations (at least) since there were slaves in the US. That means it's been around 3 since anyone alive even remembers it, and they'd have to be in a line with extreme longevity. It's been 3 generations since we've had segregation, and those three generations have lived under affirmative action.

              The fact is, we have blacks in every industry and field on the map. If so many can make it as teachers, managers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, office workers, legislators, etc and so on -- the rest don't have any excuse that all the rest of the people, no matter what their color, don't have. Sorry - the "slave" card has been played for way too long. Affirmative action gives blacks benefits that whites can't have. If they misuse them, it's not because their GreatGrandfathers 5 - 7 years back were slaves. It's time for people to get over that excuse. That excuse allows people to be lazy and dependent. Face it. There's nobody alive today that remembers being a slave - or owning one. There's nobody alive now that has parents who were slaves or slave owners.

              We whites have generations of welfare poor, too. What we don't have is some excuse for something way back before any of us were born to blame it on.
              I was basing my generations on 50 year blocks and actually although Abraham Lincoln released the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, stating "all persons held as slaves within any State, or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free.", it wasn't ended until the 13th amendment passed in the Senate in April 1864, and the House in January of 1865. It was ratified by the necessary number of states by December 6, 1865 allowing the Secretary of State to officially ratify it on a national level a few days later.

              But the state of Mississippi did not ratify the amendment until February of that year, due to an "oversight."

              Anyway, I'm sure you're aware of the poem by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D. titled Children Learn What They Live.

              If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
              If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
              If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
              If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
              If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
              If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
              If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
              If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
              If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
              If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
              If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
              If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
              If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
              If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
              If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
              If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
              If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
              If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
              If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

              Also think of generations of alcoholics, wife beaters, child abusers, etc.

              It fits. So many cycles repeat in family lines. Sure they can be broken and some are. But some go on and on. Why? Because children live what they learn and it's much easier to go with what is familiar than to pull one's self up and break with familiarity. That takes strong character and will power which by the way, is difficult to develop while living under the above mentioned, for lack of a better term, "curses". I highly commend those that are able to pull themselves up by their boot straps and accomplish it.

              I most certainly am not making excuses for anyone or advocating that anyone live the welfare life at all! I'm just simply stating the facts. There's no use sweeping our dark history under the rug. To me, that's as bad as some saying the holocaust never happened!


              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              NO! SHE said it was the CULTURE! That IS separate from skin color! As for discussions? Even BLACK people have spoken publicly about this. The below video APPEARS to show a pastor speaking in a church. He is ACTUALLY Michael Nutter, the Mayor of Pennsylvania, He HAS been more direct, but he is saying similar things here about a SPECIFIC riot that happened a few years ago.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwCOcBjpbg#t=470

              Basically, he is laying down the literal riot act and threatening to lock parents up with their kids if they don't act here. And he also talks about family in a way. But he has made it clear that it is the CULTURE that has hurt them so much. And listen around 14:00. He says that THIS is a problem that leads to poverty, NOT just in the black community, but ESPECIALLY with the black community.

              And he sounds like a good mayor to boot.

              And forgive the religious references, but ESPECIALLY people speaking in black churches tend to pepper such things into speeches a lot. Of course he only does this from a relation and explanation aspect, and NOT a religious one.

              Steve
              Steve, I did not say it was a culture, I said it was a mindset.


              Terra
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670907].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                I actually did a paper on this in college. I thought long and hard and tried to mentally get in to character, go back in time in my mind, and feel and experience what they did and try to get an unbiased understanding of the whole thing.

                It's really hard to explain. I did a lot of research and reading of autobiographies and accounts of history too. It was sort of like getting into character for a role I would play for a skit or movie, if that helps at all.

                By the way, I got an A+ on my paper.



                I was basing my generations on 50 year blocks and actually although Abraham Lincoln released the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, stating "all persons held as slaves within any State, or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free.", it wasn't ended until the 13th amendment passed in the Senate in April 1864, and the House in January of 1865. It was ratified by the necessary number of states by December 6, 1865 allowing the Secretary of State to officially ratify it on a national level a few days later.

                But the state of Mississippi did not ratify the amendment until February of that year, due to an "oversight."

                Anyway, I'm sure you're aware of the poem by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D. titled Children Learn What They Live.

                Also think of generations of alcoholics, wife beaters, child abusers, etc.

                It fits. So many cycles repeat in family lines. Sure they can be broken and some are. But some go on and on. Why? Because children live what they learn and it's much easier to go with what is familiar than to pull one's self up and break with familiarity. That takes strong character and will power which by the way, is difficult to develop while living under the above mentioned, for lack of a better term, "curses". I highly commend those that are able to pull themselves up by their boot straps and accomplish it.

                I most certainly am not making excuses for anyone or advocating that anyone live the welfare life at all! I'm just simply stating the facts. There's no use sweeping our dark history under the rug. To me, that's as bad as some saying the holocaust never happened!




                Steve, I did not say it was a culture, I said it was a mindset.


                Terra
                You spoke of how it was kind of taught over the generations. If you ask me, that is culture. STILL, mindset isn't related to race. The RACE here is because the people, identifying with the race, "learn" this from one another. AGAIN, a feature of culture.

                Steve
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670970].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  You spoke of how it was kind of taught over the generations. If you ask me, that is culture. STILL, mindset isn't related to race. The RACE here is because the people, identifying with the race, "learn" this from one another. AGAIN, a feature of culture.

                  Steve
                  If you insist.


                  Terra
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670984].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            That cycle is slowly but surely being broken, but it's not there yet.

            Just my opinion here, but I think it has validity, no?

            Terra
            SLOWLY? YES!
            SURELY? NOPE!

            I have seen and heard MANY blacks speak against education, work, etc... Watch the news enough, and you'll see a lot of criminals and poor people saying it. YOUTUBE ALSO! Some "churches". I say "churches" because they are REALLY NOI even if they may CALL themselves christian. You can see the info even on their websites.

            So there are a NUMBER that INTENTIONALLY continue the cycle. They may even ridicule and beat kids if they stray. And the welfare, and "living" minimum wage, helps it continue.

            GEE, people see Obama, Oprah, Cosby, Ben Carson, Curtis Carson, and so many others, and figure that it is the color of their skin. I'll say it again. MLK was FOR discrimination! He said "YOU SHOULD JUDGE A MAN not by the color of his skin but BY THE CONTENT OF HIS CHARACTER!"! So even HE admitted it. He didn't want a blind society, as that would lead to CHAOS! He wanted a FAIR society!

            Here is one of the most famous parts of that speech:
            I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
            HECK, the idea of affirmative action and all the talk about minimum wage is driven by it.

            Steve
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670297].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            There are many reasons, Tim. You can't pinpoint just one.

            I imagine one of the reasons is that they are only what? Three generations out of slavery? Due to that there are a lot of men that are indifferent to responsibility and family ties due to the emotional pain it caused them to endure.

            Imagine falling deeply in love with a woman, I mean head over heals in love and then one day, you are sold and torn away from her forever, either that, or you have to see your master basically rape her. And what about having a family with her only to see your family ripped away from you through the selling of slaves as commodities.

            It's quite easy to see how men hardened their hearts and moved away from being a good and responsible husband or father so as not to feel the emotional pain of it all. Mindsets were built up and they are hard to break.

            Their sons can then say, "My dad wasn't around, so why should I be? See what I'm saying?

            Due to this, the women had to be the fathers too and that is a tough job. They had to take on male qualities to be the "man of the family" and that in turn is a turn off to the males.

            It's a vicious cycle to break!

            I for one am very glad to see that mindset being broken and having the pleasure of knowing many successful black people and of calling many my friend.

            That cycle is slowly but surely being broken, but it's not there yet.

            Just my opinion here, but I think it has validity, no?

            Terra
            Until we have a real deep true conversation like this ( one, that many black leaders will scoff at and call the people who mention this as racist) we will NEVER find true equality among Races and do away with Poverty

            This is the conversation many people will squirm in their seats over. But we just need to be freaking real NO matter how hard it is to discuss and no matter hard it for people to hear.

            Thank you Miss Terra. At first I was taken back by it. But it is a very interesting take and I think really has some validity to it. Very good points
            Signature

            Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670315].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            There are many reasons, Tim. You can't pinpoint just one.

            I imagine one of the reasons is that they are only what? Three generations out of slavery? Due to that there are a lot of men that are indifferent to responsibility and family ties due to the emotional pain it caused them to endure.

            Imagine falling deeply in love with a woman, I mean head over heals in love and then one day, you are sold and torn away from her forever, either that, or you have to see your master basically rape her. And what about having a family with her only to see your family ripped away from you through the selling of slaves as commodities.

            It's quite easy to see how men hardened their hearts and moved away from being a good and responsible husband or father so as not to feel the emotional pain of it all. Mindsets were built up and they are hard to break.

            Their sons can then say, "My dad wasn't around, so why should I be? See what I'm saying?

            Due to this, the women had to be the fathers too and that is a tough job. They had to take on male qualities to be the "man of the family" and that in turn is a turn off to the males.

            It's a vicious cycle to break!

            I for one am very glad to see that mindset being broken and having the pleasure of knowing many successful black people and of calling many my friend.

            That cycle is slowly but surely being broken, but it's not there yet.

            Just my opinion here, but I think it has validity, no?

            Terra
            3 generations? Really? It's been over 150 years. It's been 7 generations (at least) since there were slaves in the US. That means it's been around 3 since anyone alive even remembers it, and they'd have to be in a line with extreme longevity. It's been 3 generations since we've had segregation, and those three generations have lived under affirmative action.

            The fact is, we have blacks in every industry and field on the map. If so many can make it as teachers, managers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, office workers, legislators, etc and so on -- the rest don't have any excuse that all the rest of the people, no matter what their color, don't have. Sorry - the "slave" card has been played for way too long. Affirmative action gives blacks benefits that whites can't have. If they misuse them, it's not because their GreatGrandfathers 5 - 7 years back were slaves. It's time for people to get over that excuse. That excuse allows people to be lazy and dependent. Face it. There's nobody alive today that remembers being a slave - or owning one. There's nobody alive now that has parents who were slaves or slave owners.

            We whites have generations of welfare poor, too. What we don't have is some excuse for something way back before any of us were born to blame it on.
            Signature

            Sal
            When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
            Beyond the Path

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670400].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              It's been over 150 years. It's been 7 generations (at least) since there were slaves in the US.
              Really? And forced labour from prisoners is what exactly?
              Signature
              Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
              So that blind people can hate them as well.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670417].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                Really? And forced labour from prisoners is what exactly?
                Part of *****REAL***** prison life! Have you HEARD about PAYING A DEBT to society? Of course WHITES have to do the SAME labor! It isn't based on color or race.

                Seriously, if you committed a felony that has somehow stolen labor, resources, or life from another, you OWE them more than just being behind bars. Granted, the other person may NEVER get back ANYTHING you stole, but it is a minor recompense.

                A SLAVE is someone that rightfully owes you NOTHING being FORCED to work!

                An indentured servant is someone that owes you something and is required to work it off.

                An employee is someone that works to get paid so they can do things in a legal and peaceful manner.

                A felon is someone that brakes a law considered to be potentially so dangerous or bad that it is considered a felony and they are jailed for it. This OFTEN includes things that steal labor, resources, or life. It would be like an employee just taking cash out of the till and not doing the work AND, ironically, THAT would be a felony! So shouldn't you have to do something?

                Steve
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670440].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Cali16
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  Really? And forced labour from prisoners is what exactly?
                  I wouldn't call that slavery - it's part of the consequence of committing a crime. While I realize there are some people in prison who were wrongfully convicted, the vast majority made choices that landed them there. They have no one to blame but themselves.

                  If someone who committed murder, rape, armed robbery, child abuse, or cheated people out of millions of dollars is forced to do hard labor while serving time, they're not going to get any sympathy from me.
                  Signature
                  If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670450].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                    If someone who committed murder, rape, armed robbery, child abuse, or cheated people out of millions of dollars is forced to do hard labor while serving time, they're not going to get any sympathy from me.
                    100% agreement. however if they're in there because of possessing a small amount of weed, then I disagree whole-heartedly. The drug laws are strict to ensure the jails are full and there is a steady supply of slave (yes, slave) labour.
                    Signature
                    Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
                    So that blind people can hate them as well.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670702].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                Really? And forced labour from prisoners is what exactly?
                Something not used widely enough or effectively enough to (a) repay one's debt to society, and (b) help fix many of the problems in society.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670640].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                Really? And forced labour from prisoners is what exactly?
                That isn't one race being slaved. That's anyone they can catch for a "crime" they can slave them for. I've known a lot of prison slaves and not one of them that I've known has been black. I know that in some areas there are more blacks getting roped into that system, but don't ever think it's just blacks. It's anyone low income that is really, really in danger from the victimless crime bullshit laws because a lot of them are devised to work via the financial hardships of the poor. See paragraph below.

                MdnightOil - you agree with that, huh? People are being slaved for victimless crimes. It is the exact reason that people are arrested for victimless crimes. Smoke a joint, get caught, and you spent years on slave labor - and one that's even better? Driving without car insurance because you have to get to a job but can't afford to get the insurance. Real hardcore stuff. As long as our prisons are corporate, for profit systems, there will be slave labor and laws made up just to put people into that system.
                Signature

                Sal
                When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
                Beyond the Path

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670658].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                  That isn't one race being slaved. That's anyone they can catch for a "crime" they can slave them for. I've known a lot of prison slaves and not one of them that I've known has been black. I know that in some areas there are more blacks getting roped into that system, but don't ever think it's just blacks. It's anyone low income that is really, really in danger from the victimless crime bullshit laws because a lot of them are devised to work via the financial hardships of the poor.
                  I never mentioned any race in my comment. I apologise if you construed it that way. I've bolded the bit I should've added to my post to clarify my point.
                  Signature
                  Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
                  So that blind people can hate them as well.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670706].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                    I never mentioned any race in my comment. I apologise if you construed it that way. I've bolded the bit I should've added to my post to clarify my point.
                    The word SLAVE, in the US, is a VERY loaded one. Some blacks will practically get into a fight with you if you use some cognate of the word slave, and it is not talking about a black being beaten and enslaved, So people often read the word black into it. But YEAH, EVERY race has been enslaved somewhere to some degree,

                    Steve
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670928].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                  MdnightOil - you agree with that, huh?
                  Yes.

                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                  People are being slaved for victimless crimes. It is the exact reason that people are arrested for victimless crimes. Smoke a joint, get caught, and you spent years on slave labor - and one that's even better? Driving without car insurance because you have to get to a job but can't afford to get the insurance. Real hardcore stuff. As long as our prisons are corporate, for profit systems, there will be slave labor and laws made up just to put people into that system.
                  Work on fixing an imperfect system. I'm all for that. In the meantime, how about we keep everyone productive and contributing to something other than rotting away on a cot in a cell or hanging out on the prison common grounds?
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670733].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                  That isn't one race being slaved. That's anyone they can catch for a "crime" they can slave them for. I've known a lot of prison slaves and not one of them that I've known has been black. I know that in some areas there are more blacks getting roped into that system, but don't ever think it's just blacks. It's anyone low income that is really, really in danger from the victimless crime bullshit laws because a lot of them are devised to work via the financial hardships of the poor. See paragraph below.
                  Yeah, it is crazy. People will think that EVERYONE in jail is black, even though you so often see NON blacks caught by the police, on wanted lists, or in documentaries about jail life. And HECK, there ARE blacks running, and high up, in the legal system. I don't think whites could have the control people think they do, even if they wanted it. In LA, when they accused so many police of being so racist that they set up a lot of blacks, they FIRED the cheif of police and replaced him with a black. Personally, I NEVER heard of ANY difference. It didn't seem to ally people's fears either. And in some cases you KNOW that blacks will be "over represented". Look at what happens if something like a leader gets jailed or says something, or a black gets killed or whites get off. They riot. That doesn't appear to be common with others at all. And this can get HUNDREDS of local blacks jailed in a night.

                  HECK, some feminists now are saying that women shouldn't be jailed and are over represented in the legal system. Apparently a whopping 7% of the prison population is female. As this post shows, some women deserve to get jailed.

                  MdnightOil - you agree with that, huh? People are being slaved for victimless crimes. It is the exact reason that people are arrested for victimless crimes. Smoke a joint, get caught, and you spent years on slave labor - and one that's even better? Driving without car insurance because you have to get to a job but can't afford to get the insurance. Real hardcore stuff. As long as our prisons are corporate, for profit systems, there will be slave labor and laws made up just to put people into that system.
                  Well, there WERE, and likely still are, a LOT of people driving with no insurance. There ARE some relatively low cost types of insurance. They probably cost less than buying an old cheap car. It really IS little to ask. MOST of the cost of insurance is replacement of your car, damage to your car, and higher levels of reimbursement. That is why such things are options and so variable. The law requires FAR less coverage.

                  And MAN. A woman once hit me with her car, and started a clock running! I mean I was just going to go to the drug store, and go back. But she hit me HARD, and it hurt the back of my neck. I SERIOUSLY thought there could be internal bleeding. SHE suggested calling 911, for the car, which I don't think I will EVER do again. Anyway, I did. My insurance ID was 1 month old(BUT VALID), because I didn't get the replacement. My registration in the car was a year old(BUT UP TO DATE), because I didn't put the old one in the car and my shirt. NEVER MIND that I had like 10 years of registrations there!

                  HEY, I travel a LOT, and had THREE people misdirecting my mail, so I had to search in places I had to FIND to get the mail. ANYWAY, the idiot cop treated ME like a criminal, and even said he would have my car towed, etc... ****I**** had to tell him "LOOK, you can call it in and quickly check it." He even said in that snide tone "I MIGHT just do that!". Luckily, he did, found that I was telling the truth, and let me go, and I ended up going to the hospital. STILL, I am glad they are trying to make sure people are covered.

                  And if I were a criminal, I would just print a fake ID and car registration. Calling in is more accurate ANYWAY, since that is FAR harder to fake. BTW printing false info is against the law, and WILL be discovered if they check(Could take as little as a couple minutes), or within a day(When the police fill out the report and the person calls the insurance company), on average.

                  Most people can't pay for possible problems, and not being insured is almost like theft from people that have to work to solve/prevent problems due to the accident.

                  Steve
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670923].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Really? So what is the reason the poverty and unemployment rate is higher among blacks?
          Interestingly, your question presupposes that racism is the main reason for high black unemployment. If you are mainly interested in ideas that support that view, facts to the contrary will be probably be discarded out-of-hand.

          From the post.

          A better theory is that a culture of underachieving is preventing blacks from succeeding in both school and work.
          Another example is the success of the "middleman minorities" such as Jewish and Korean shopkeepers in predominately black neighborhoods.Businessmen from other ethnic groups are actually at a disadvantage when dealing with a predominately black clientele. If racism caused poverty then you would at least expect blacks to do well in businesses that cater to other blacks. That fact that there are unfilled niches in black communities being filled by members of other ethnic groups shows that black culture does not provide the necessary entrepreneurial spirit.
          Joe Mobley
          Signature

          .

          Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670147].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            Interestingly, your question presupposes that racism is the main reason for high black unemployment. If you are mainly interested in ideas that support that view, facts to the contrary will be probably be discarded out-of-hand.





            Joe Mobley
            Nope. I didn't say racism is the main reason for the higher unemployment and poverty among blacks, however you did day we can eliminate it as a reason, which is ridiculous.

            The unemployment rate among blacks has been twice that as for whites for about 70 years now. It's higher for those who have a college education also. To think that racism doesn't play a big role in that is extremely naive.

            Terra, there's another vicious cycle that I hope can be broken after centuries of passing on from one generation to another and that is the cycle of bigotry. It doesn't go away easily.

            People talk as if after slavery ended that everyone had equal rights, justice and an level playing field. Well, after slavery ended there was terrorism against blacks ( kkk , lynching etc... ), 100 years of voter suppression, 100 years of segregation and Jim Crow laws and practices such as redlining thst kept blacks from prospering and being part of the great growth of the middle class during the middle of the last century.

            Today, blacks are pulled over, arrested, imprisoned and executed at a higher rate than whites. There is still obvious discrimination in hiring which leads to higher unemployment even among the college educated. To say racism isn't s factor is just ignorant of the facts and our history.
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670493].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              The unemployment rate among blacks has been twice that as for whites for about 70 years now. It's higher for those who have a college education also. To think that racism doesn't play a big role in that is extremely naive.
              Racism comes in many forms. We always hear about the one.

              Rarely do we hear about another which is built upon positions that blacks will never be treated fairly, society owes them or that they aren't competent enough to handle their own lives so the government will, etc.

              Fortunately, an increasing number are looking beyond all of that and are taking full advantage of the opportunities that actually do exist.

              From 2002 to 2007, the number of black-owned businesses increased by 60.5 percent to 1.9 million, more than triple the national rate of 18.0 percent, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's Survey of Business Owners. Over the same period, receipts generated by black-owned businesses increased 55.1 percent to $137.5 billion.

              "Black-owned businesses continued to be one of the fastest growing segments of our economy, showing rapid growth in both the number of businesses and total sales during this time period," said Census Bureau Deputy Director Thomas Mesenbourg.

              https://www.census.gov/newsroom/rele...p/cb11-24.html
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670719].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                Racism comes in many forms. We always hear about the one.

                Rarely do we hear about another which is built upon positions that blacks will never be treated fairly,
                I can't ever recall hearing anyone use the word "never" in regards to discrimination ending.

                society owes them
                People may disagree with whether society owes blacks anything or not. I started a thread about a great article called The Case For Reparations which was closed for some reason. I don't see any racism from the perspective of the author on that issue.

                or that they aren't competent enough to handle their own lives so the government will, etc.
                Who says something like this? There are more whites on welfare than any other race. Are there people suggesting that whites aren't competent enough to handle their own lives?

                I'm not sure what Joe is getting at when he wants to quote that badly written article that says "If racism caused poverty then you would at least expect blacks to do well in businesses that cater to other blacks." This is not a logically sound statement. First of all, it assumes blacks don't do well at all in businesses that cater to other blacks. There are over 2 million black owned businesses in the US. Secondly, it implies that racism doesn't cause poverty because blacks don't do well in this regard. :/ Somehow, this is supposed to be a "fact". Then the article Joe quotes says "That fact that there are unfilled niches in black communities being filled by members of other ethnic groups shows that black culture does not provide the necessary entrepreneurial spirit." Again, this is just a bs statement and a logical fallacy.

                Like you Dan, I knew otherwise and found that black entrepreneurship has grown in recent years. You quoted that it has grown from 2002 to 2007. I found an article saying black self employment increased during the recession while it went down for other racial groups:

                From the fourth quarter of 2007 through fourth quarter of 2009, the total number of non-agricultural self-employed people fell. But the number of self-employed Blacks increased 5.7 percent. In contrast, the number of self-employed Whites decreased 3.4 percent, self-employment among Asians decreased 10.5 percent...
                Black Self-Employment Rose During the Recession

                So, why didn't white self employment grow during the recession? Is it because of "white culture"?

                Although there has been a recent growth in black entrepreneurship there is still a gap between blacks, hispanics and other races. There are reasons for that though besides just the knee jerk ignorant "it's the black culture" meme. Here's a good article on this you may enjoy Dan:

                http://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/defaul...1_sch_0001.pdf

                Roughly 1 in 10 workers owns a business, but these 13 million business owners hold an amazing 37.4 percent of total U.S. wealth. Yet only 5.1 percent of African-American workers and 7.5 percent of Latino workers own businesses...

                We focus on three potential barriers to successful minority businesses--financial capital, family business background, and human capital. The level of startup capital invested in the business is strongly associated with business success. Estimates from the CBO indicate that firms with higher levels of startup capital are less likely to close, have higher profits and sales, and are more likely to hire employees. Differences in startup capital may be due to differences in the personal wealth of the entrepreneur because this wealth can be invested directly in the business or used as collateral to obtain business loans. Personal wealth among African-Americans is one eleventh that of whites. The median level of net worth for black households is only $6,166 implying that half of all black households have less than $6,166 in total wealth. Part of these disparities in wealth are due to blacks being less likely to own homes, having lower home values, and having lower equity to debt ratios in their homes. Recent research also indicates that black businesses may face lending discrimination, and blacks may have less access to family wealth through inheritances, loans and equity investments. All of these factors may contribute to the substantially lower levels of startup capital among black business owners than among white business owners...

                More than half of all business owners had a self-employed family member prior to starting their business...Business outcomes are 11 to 38 percent better if the owner worked in a family business prior to starting his or her own business...Black business owners have a relatively disadvantaged family business background compared with white business owners. Only 12.6 percent of black business owners had prior work experience in a family member's business compared with 23.3 percent of white business owners.

                Overall, our findings indicate that large racial disparities exist in business ownership and business outcomes in the United States. Our analysis of the confidential and restricted-access CBO reveals several important determinants of success in small business ownership, and causes of racial disparities in business performance. The relative lack of success among black-owned businesses is attributable in part to their owners having less startup capital, disadvantaged family backgrounds, and less education.
                Signature
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671322].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I've noticed that usually the people who are too young and have babies and try to make their relationship work stay poor because they don't get marketable job skills. Don't seem to have the wherewithal to do so. For example, guys who go into construction, but remain laborers and work sporadically instead of becoming a tradesman, sub-contractor, or contractor.

    The ones who have babies and don't stay together often go further downhill economically because
    they can't keep up on child support, get wages garnished, or eventually go to jail because they did not pay.
    And so on further behind the eight ball and further away from being marketable.

    A lot of it does seem to be due to too much impulsive behavior, and too much drug and alcohol use.

    Dan
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9669957].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW Look at that Kanye West guy! I can NOT believe he makes a penny, but he does. How about sports, dance, music, movies, and I say this ONLY because they are so famous. I have known a number of blacks that are doing far better than I am, and they are even working for companies that AREN'T owned by blacks. Of course, blacks own run companies also. Seriously, I don't know how ANYONE can say skin color is such a global handicap.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670300].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Seriously, I don't know how ANYONE can say skin color is such a global handicap.

      Steve
      Steve, I think Miss Terra explained eloquently !!
      Signature

      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670322].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Steve, I think Miss Terra explained why !!
        NO! SHE said it was the CULTURE! That IS separate from skin color! As for discussions? Even BLACK people have spoken publicly about this. The below video APPEARS to show a pastor speaking in a church. He is ACTUALLY Michael Nutter, the Mayor of Pennsylvania, He HAS been more direct, but he is saying similar things here about a SPECIFIC riot that happened a few years ago.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwCOcBjpbg#t=470

        Basically, he is laying down the literal riot act and threatening to lock parents up with their kids if they don't act here. And he also talks about family in a way. But he has made it clear that it is the CULTURE that has hurt them so much. And listen around 14:00. He says that THIS is a problem that leads to poverty, NOT just in the black community, but ESPECIALLY with the black community.

        And he sounds like a good mayor to boot.

        And forgive the religious references, but ESPECIALLY people speaking in black churches tend to pepper such things into speeches a lot. Of course he only does this from a relation and explanation aspect, and NOT a religious one.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9670395].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I see this thread about poverty has morphed into a thread about black people and it would be better defined if it was about only poor black people.

    I'll say...

    Blacks are not blameless for the culture/mindset of a segment of our community that is poor and in danger of staying poor but pretending historic and ongoing racism is not a factor in the equation doesn't make a lot of sense given that this is America after all.

    From emancipation until the early 1990s any blacks that tried to help blacks came under serious attack by certain elements of the state and federal governments and let's not forget about the locals.

    I'd also like to say this...

    I'd like to thank certain white people for helping to mess up this country economically.

    You brought into the hating on minorities, small time so-called freeloaders, government in general, a belligerent foreign policy and look what its got this country.

    A great nation even with all its warts has been brought low and the historic economic data says it all started in earnest circa 1980.

    For the smallest of reasons you helped throw away a formula that resulted in the greatest economy the world had ever known. You thought they were only going to hurt those you hated on but the reality turned out to be much different - and you still haven't learned your lesson.

    What they didn't realize was...

    ... that along with the hating on small time freeloaders, hating on the fed gov, putting minorities in their place, the extra tough talk on foreign policy, ...

    ... comes an economic philosophy that simply and won't and can't help the average person in this nation or the nation itself prosper economically.

    Its a wonderful philosophy for the already wealthy but for no one else.

    Here it is in a nutshell...


    - Hands Off:

    Under the guise of getting gov off our backs but in practice it simply allows nefarious forces to do just about whatever they like to the population.

    - Doesn't believe in interfering with businesses and their relationship to customers or their employees - no matter what is happening to the American people.

    - Seeks to find more and more ways to shovel more and more money at the already wealthy.

    - Makes absolutely no investments in the society or the population.

    - Has no real concern for the living standards of the American people - no matter what they say.

    - Would rather the "free market" (which really means large corporations) direct this great nation on its way through time and space instead of at least a basic and general plan.

    - Most adults are aware of the old saying that if you fail to plan you plan to fail but these folks would rather this great nation have no at least general plan at all.


    It doesn't has a chance because of its built-in economy killing attitudes which lead to policies which only slow down and stagnate economic growth.

    A robust economy solves a lot of problems but a robust economy is never going to happen with this philosophy.

    Thanks for sending a bunch of dangerous, national killing idiots to the national and state governments.

    Black folks ain't blameless and neither are some white folks.

    Thanks a million for helping to temporarily ruin the best nation in the history of the planet that will bounce back because that is our destiny.
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671205].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I see this thread about poverty has morphed into a thread about black people and it would be better defined if it was about only poor black people.

      I'll say...

      Blacks are not blameless for the culture/mindset of a segment of our community that is poor and in danger of staying poor but pretending historic and ongoing racism is not a factor in the equation doesn't make a lot of sense given that this is America after all.

      From emancipation until the early 1990s any blacks that tried to help blacks came under serious attack by certain elements of the state and federal governments and let's not forget about the locals.

      I'd also like to say this...

      I'd like to thank certain white people for helping to mess up this country economically.

      You brought into the hating on minorities, small time so-called freeloaders, government in general, a belligerent foreign policy and look what its got this country.

      A great nation even with all its warts has been brought low and the historic economic data says it all started in earnest circa 1980.

      For the smallest of reasons you helped throw away a formula that resulted in the greatest economy the world had ever known. You thought they were only going to hurt those you hated on but the reality turned out to be much different - and you still haven't learned your lesson.

      What they didn't realize was...

      ... that along with the hating on small time freeloaders, hating on the fed gov, putting minorities in their place, the extra tough talk on foreign policy, ...

      ... comes an economic philosophy that simply and won't and can't help the average person in this nation or the nation itself prosper economically.

      Its a wonderful philosophy for the already wealthy but for no one else.

      Here it is in a nutshell...


      - Hands Off:

      Under the guise of getting gov off our backs but in practice it simply allows nefarious forces to do just about whatever they like to the population.

      - Doesn't believe in interfering with businesses and their relationship to customers or their employees - no matter what is happening to the American people.

      - Seeks to find more and more ways to shovel more and more money at the already wealthy.

      - Makes absolutely no investments in the society or the population.

      - Has no real concern for the living standards of the American people - no matter what they say.

      - Would rather the "free market" (which really means large corporations) direct this great nation on its way through time and space instead of at least a basic and general plan.

      - Most adults are aware of the old saying that if you fail to plan you plan to fail but these folks would rather this great nation have no at least general plan at all.


      It doesn't has a chance because of its built-in economy killing attitudes which lead to policies which only slow down and stagnate economic growth.

      A robust economy solves a lot of problems but a robust economy is never going to happen with this philosophy.

      Thanks for sending a bunch of dangerous, national killing idiots to the national and state governments.

      Black folks ain't blameless and neither are some white folks.

      Thanks a million for helping to temporarily ruin the best nation in the history of the planet that will bounce back because that is our destiny.
      Bravo, TL! Bravo!

      You hit it out of the ballpark with that one!!


      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671281].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I see this thread about poverty has morphed into a thread about black people and it would be better defined if it was about only poor black people.
      MOST of the black people that do this ARE poor! SOME, like Obama, for instance, spread this idea even though they are INCREDIBLY rich. Some even make money in the media PROMOTING the idea! So to say it is only POOR black people is just WRONG! SOME, like the mother of ben carson, are poor, underprivileged, etc.... and ******DON'T****** spread this idea! SOME, like Obama, had everything given to them on a silver platter, and DO spread it! And some blacks make the SAME observation, that blacks CAN succeed and do well, and nobody is plotting to hurt them! Some even promote it however they can.

      Blacks are not blameless for the culture/mindset of a segment of our community that is poor and in danger of staying poor but pretending historic and ongoing racism is not a factor in the equation doesn't make a lot of sense given that this is America after all.
      You DO realize that the idea that started racism was in Britain before the US, and it morphed into racism before the US came into being, and MANY states NEVER wanted it, and there was a WAR to fight against it, and a lot of lawsuits, etc, RIGHT?

      SOME people in the US, took a BRITISH IDEA, based on an idea that goes back THOUSANDS of years(it is actually DESCRIBED in the OLD TESTAMENT), and modified it based on a judgment desired, and made, for a BLACK, to come up what you say has been done for 400+ years, though the colony that became the US as we know it wasn't even here then, and you say it is an inseparable part of the US!

      From emancipation until the early 1990s any blacks that tried to help blacks came under serious attack by certain elements of the state and federal governments and let's not forget about the locals.
      GEE, the FBI and others have fought AGAINST racism. AGAIN, MANY in those areas aren't even white, and some are BLACK. In SOME areas, like Washington DC, for example, MOST may be black.

      I'd like to thank certain white people for helping to mess up this country economically.

      You brought into the hating on minorities, small time so-called freeloaders, government in general, a belligerent foreign policy and look what its got this country.

      A great nation even with all its warts has been brought low and the historic economic data says it all started in earnest circa 1980.

      For the smallest of reasons you helped throw away a formula that resulted in the greatest economy the world had ever known. You thought they were only going to hurt those you hated on but the reality turned out to be much different - and you still haven't learned your lesson.

      What they didn't realize was...

      ... that along with the hating on small time freeloaders, hating on the fed gov, putting minorities in their place, the extra tough talk on foreign policy, ...

      ... comes an economic philosophy that simply and won't and can't help the average person in this nation or the nation itself prosper economically.

      Its a wonderful philosophy for the already wealthy but for no one else.

      Here it is in a nutshell...


      - Hands Off:

      Under the guise of getting gov off our backs but in practice it simply allows nefarious forces to do just about whatever they like to the population.

      - Doesn't believe in interfering with businesses and their relationship to customers or their employees - no matter what is happening to the American people.

      - Seeks to find more and more ways to shovel more and more money at the already wealthy.

      - Makes absolutely no investments in the society or the population.

      - Has no real concern for the living standards of the American people - no matter what they say.

      - Would rather the "free market" (which really means large corporations) direct this great nation on its way through time and space instead of at least a basic and general plan.

      - Most adults are aware of the old saying that if you fail to plan you plan to fail but these folks would rather this great nation have no at least general plan at all.


      It doesn't has a chance because of its built-in economy killing attitudes which lead to policies which only slow down and stagnate economic growth.

      A robust economy solves a lot of problems but a robust economy is never going to happen with this philosophy.

      Thanks for sending a bunch of dangerous, national killing idiots to the national and state governments.

      Black folks ain't blameless and neither are some white folks.

      Thanks a million for helping to temporarily ruin the best nation in the history of the planet that will bounce back because that is our destiny.

      WOW, if THAT isn't the pot calling the kettle black....! And you DO realize that your statement there contradicts A LOT of what you have been saying here FOR YEARS! Of course, as I said, you can't agree with that 80% figure earlier, though I do, and HAVE FOR YEARS, because you would then be..... Well, I said it THERE!

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671706].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        MOST of the black people that do this ARE poor! SOME, like Obama, for instance, spread this idea even though they are INCREDIBLY rich. Some even make money in the media PROMOTING the idea! So to say it is only POOR black people is just WRONG! SOME, like the mother of ben carson, are poor, underprivileged, etc.... and ******DON'T****** spread this idea! SOME, like Obama, had everything given to them on a silver platter, and DO spread it! And some blacks make the SAME observation, that blacks CAN succeed and do well, and nobody is plotting to hurt them! Some even promote it however they can.



        You DO realize that the idea that started racism was in Britain before the US, and it morphed into racism before the US came into being, and MANY states NEVER wanted it, and there was a WAR to fight against it, and a lot of lawsuits, etc, RIGHT?

        SOME people in the US, took a BRITISH IDEA, based on an idea that goes back THOUSANDS of years(it is actually DESCRIBED in the OLD TESTAMENT), and modified it based on a judgment desired, and made, for a BLACK, to come up what you say has been done for 400+ years, though the colony that became the US as we know it wasn't even here then, and you say it is an inseparable part of the US!



        GEE, the FBI and others have fought AGAINST racism. AGAIN, MANY in those areas aren't even white, and some are BLACK. In SOME areas, like Washington DC, for example, MOST may be black.




        WOW, if THAT isn't the pot calling the kettle black....! And you DO realize that your statement there contradicts A LOT of what you have been saying here FOR YEARS! Of course, as I said, you can't agree with that 80% figure earlier, though I do, and HAVE FOR YEARS, because you would then be..... Well, I said it THERE!

        Steve
        Once again, you need to get a gal.
        Signature

        "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672055].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Once again, you need to get a gal.
          It didn't help YOU!

          Steve
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672198].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ser23
        Wow, never though we would all get into a debate issue on blacks vs white on warrior, But if we are on that I do see many many Asians And Latino Families moving into my neighborhood, which is upper class. Driving Fancy cars, business owners. Heck my neighbor 3 houses down is Mexican and drives a viper. It's the culture. By the way I have 1 black man in my neighborhood, and he told me when he started making money he wanted to get away from his brother and sisters because they were too ghetto for him. This was his words not mine. So that I found interesting.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9677885].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      TL,

      I gave a "Thanks" to your post not because I agree with everything you said, I don't, but because you stated your opinions without being mean spirited, belligerent or hateful. Maybe something I should work on myself.

      Thank you for participating in the thread and the forum.

      All the best,

      Joe Mobley



      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I see this thread about poverty has morphed into a thread about black people and it would be better defined if it was about only poor black people.

      I'll say...

      Blacks are not blameless for the culture/mindset of a segment of our community that is poor and in danger of staying poor but pretending historic and ongoing racism is not a factor in the equation doesn't make a lot of sense given that this is America after all.

      From emancipation until the early 1990s any blacks that tried to help blacks came under serious attack by certain elements of the state and federal governments and let's not forget about the locals.

      I'd also like to say this...

      I'd like to thank certain white people for helping to mess up this country economically.

      You brought into the hating on minorities, small time so-called freeloaders, government in general, a belligerent foreign policy and look what its got this country.

      A great nation even with all its warts has been brought low and the historic economic data says it all started in earnest circa 1980.

      For the smallest of reasons you helped throw away a formula that resulted in the greatest economy the world had ever known. You thought they were only going to hurt those you hated on but the reality turned out to be much different - and you still haven't learned your lesson.

      What they didn't realize was...

      ... that along with the hating on small time freeloaders, hating on the fed gov, putting minorities in their place, the extra tough talk on foreign policy, ...

      ... comes an economic philosophy that simply and won't and can't help the average person in this nation or the nation itself prosper economically.

      Its a wonderful philosophy for the already wealthy but for no one else.

      Here it is in a nutshell...


      - Hands Off:

      Under the guise of getting gov off our backs but in practice it simply allows nefarious forces to do just about whatever they like to the population.

      - Doesn't believe in interfering with businesses and their relationship to customers or their employees - no matter what is happening to the American people.

      - Seeks to find more and more ways to shovel more and more money at the already wealthy.

      - Makes absolutely no investments in the society or the population.

      - Has no real concern for the living standards of the American people - no matter what they say.

      - Would rather the "free market" (which really means large corporations) direct this great nation on its way through time and space instead of at least a basic and general plan.

      - Most adults are aware of the old saying that if you fail to plan you plan to fail but these folks would rather this great nation have no at least general plan at all.


      It doesn't has a chance because of its built-in economy killing attitudes which lead to policies which only slow down and stagnate economic growth.

      A robust economy solves a lot of problems but a robust economy is never going to happen with this philosophy.

      Thanks for sending a bunch of dangerous, national killing idiots to the national and state governments.

      Black folks ain't blameless and neither are some white folks.

      Thanks a million for helping to temporarily ruin the best nation in the history of the planet that will bounce back because that is our destiny.
      Signature

      .

      Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672057].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        TL,

        I gave a "Thanks" to your post not because I agree with everything you said, I don't, but because you stated your opinions without being mean spirited, belligerent or hateful. Maybe something I should work on myself.

        Thank you for participating in the thread and the forum.

        All the best,

        Joe Mobley
        You REALLY didn't see the hatred in that? WOW!

        The term thanks, for example, was sarcastic. The timing shows who it was against, etc... In1980 a number of blacks *****SERIOUSLY***** thought that Reagan was going to bring back slavery, and do other such things. I almost get the feeling that TL felt the same, and may even still believe it.

        Anyway, look again.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672206].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          No, what I didn't see was venom towards anyone here in his post.

          Joe Mobley


          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You REALLY didn't see the hatred in that? WOW!

          The term thanks, for example, was sarcastic. The timing shows who it was against, etc... In1980 a number of blacks *****SERIOUSLY***** thought that Reagan was going to bring back slavery, and do other such things. I almost get the feeling that TL felt the same, and may even still believe it.

          Anyway, look again.

          Steve
          Signature

          .

          Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672242].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You REALLY didn't see the hatred in that? WOW!

          The term thanks, for example, was sarcastic. The timing shows who it was against, etc... In1980 a number of blacks *****SERIOUSLY***** thought that Reagan was going to bring back slavery, and do other such things. I almost get the feeling that TL felt the same, and may even still believe it.

          Anyway, look again.

          Steve
          The notion of anyone bringing back American slavery is ridiculous.

          The reason 1980 was mentioned was because that is when the economic records show the nation began its modern day economic slide in earnest.

          The economic decline and financial mismanagement of the nation is typified by the quadrupling of the national debt which went from about 800 billion in 1980 to about 3.5 trillion be the end of 1992 - after 12 years in a row of your type of POTUS - and without a major war or anything else to justify the new debt.
          Signature

          "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9672926].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            The notion of anyone bringing back American slavery is ridiculous.

            The reason 1980 was mentioned was because that is when the economic records show the nation began its modern day economic slide in earnest.

            The economic decline and financial mismanagement of the nation is typified by the quadrupling of the national debt which went from about 800 billion in 1980 to about 3.5 trillion be the end of 1992 - after 12 years in a row of your type of POTUS - and without a major war or anything else to justify the new debt.
            WOW! And THAT after the CURRENT deal where they are CONSTANTLY asking for more credit, which we DON'T have, and they had fairly absolute control for at least 4 years, and for at lest 2 of those years, the president fully agreed. As I said, I have been saying this for years, and your side has been disputing it. YOU have YOURSELF done so, with no possible misunderstanding on either side.

            But when most people know NOTHING about the others, and many of those that know something can simply be told it isn't so, it is easy to manufacture "truth". EVENTUALLY, things may just COLLAPSE.

            Steve
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9673192].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Thanks a million for helping to temporarily ruin the best nation in the history of the planet that will bounce back because that is our destiny.
      I'll even add to that.

      The US has the greatest history in the history of the world. Our past is better than anyone else's...and it gets better all the time.

      And our future is the best future in the world. The US always has had the very best future in the world., and it always will have the best future in the world. We have the best future now, and forever more. Sure...sure...other countries say they have the best future...but that's all in the past.

      Even in the past, we had the best future. It was our destiny and will always be our destiny.



      Added a few days later; Honest to goodness guys, I thought this was hilarious.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9674501].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Banned
    Why is everyone in 'murica obsessed with blacks and whites
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671321].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author markeeter
    I think you can pull it off even without high school if you have the necessary skills. The rest two points I agree with!
    Signature

    Having Email Deliverability issues?
    Head off to Winning Email for a free checkup!

    Looking for a freemium Social Media Manager?
    You may wanna check out DoSocial

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671323].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I think that more than anything, regardless of race, it's who and what influences you
    growing up and right now.

    In my previous post, http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9669957 , the continually poor people I was thinking of as I wrote are white people I know.

    In my own life, I never knew either grandfather because one was gone before I was born and the other very soon after. Neither grandmother was a big influence. Dad was a big impact, and the people or books I chose in high school and beyond.

    Dan
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671797].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, I never said there weren't poor whites. There certainly ARE. And SOME even have the same kind of culture that CREATES poverty.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671810].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    TL - what I disagree with in your statement is calling corps "free market". We haven't had a free market in this country for a long long time. Those corps that have melded with our gov are very good at making sure they have little competition.

    And you are right - all sides are guilty. It wasn't just blacks that were slaves and it wasn't only whites that were slave owners. One of the very first slave owners in the US happened to be black.

    What is going on now has nothing to do with back then - although I realize it's been one long haul and headache for blacks to achieve what they are achieving now...especially with an active poor that are screaming how evil everyone else is. However - our current economy is our fault for letting the rich of all races to stomp the crap out of the rest of us. We're being programmed to hate the poor instead of the people that are making/keeping us that way.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9671851].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ser23
    I have to disagree with this as you can't judge a persons willingness too success in life.

    #1 I know 3 people that drop out of high school to start their own business and now are muti-millionaires.

    #2 #3 are a joke. It does make it harder, but again the " will" of anyone can overcome anything.

    So final thought don't judge anyone one, because that so called "poor person" without the designer clothes , fancy cars, might just be a millionaire, that simply lived within his/her own means.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9677856].message }}

Trending Topics