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It's Hopeless I Quit!

by salegurus
257 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
    • |
Hi my name is Theo and i was a serial reporter....

Over the years here on WF iv'e mostly kept to myself, made a few acquaintances and also angered a few (Well maybe more) with my direct no BS approach...
A lot of my time was spent reporting posts/threads for various reasons, my way of helping out to keep the forum clean and organized.

Unfortunately iv'e realized that it's become an exercise in futility...
Stupid questions my 6 year old could google in 2 min, rehashed/regurgitated answers, exaggeration,outright lies,link dropping and the list goes on...
I'm sure the Mods are trying but maybe it's just too much for them...

IMO, not only has the quality of content on WF dropped to KinderGarden level, but the number of members who actually loved the forum for more than just trying to make a buck or spread BS has also been diluted.

I remember when i first found WF (long before i joined) the MF was chock-a-block with helpful useful info, you would actually leave feeling that you've learned something but that has been changing for a while, long before the change over...

Now i actually feel dumber after spending a few mins reading through some of the threads, it makes me wonder about the IQ of some of these new members...

Anyway, i have not reported anything for about 10 days now and i feel great..... ("Feel Great", probably not the best choice of words) more a sense of relief...
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

    Stupid questions my 6 year old could google in 2 min, rehashed/regurgitated answers, exaggeration,outright lies,link dropping and the list goes on...
    I'm sure the Mods are trying but maybe it's just too much for them...
    I think you already know that I'm on your side, over these issues, Theo.

    I'm glad you're feeling great, but sorry you've stopped "reporting".

    The moderators, I think, are actually doing very well at the moment. Even at weekends. Even at funny times of day. They obviously have some kind of "rota" and it's obviously working out for them, at least to some extent.

    Most of what you're complaining about (and I agree with you completely about all of it) actually has nothing to do with the moderators at all. If what people are posting here breaks the forum's rules, they do delete it. They often even contact people and explain why. Can't complain about that?

    I sometimes get immensely irritated by people who are asking beginner-level questions themselves but still posting in threads in which others are asking for advice, and often offering dreadfully misguided advice, sometimes based on clearcut factual inaccuracies (those parts, at least, can be corrected) but more often just on complete misunderstandings. But many of those situations are difficult: some are genuinely trying (albeit often very inappropriately) to be "helpful". And they're not breaking any rules, anyway.

    Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

    IMO, not only has the quality of content on WF dropped to KinderGarden level, but the number of members who actually loved the forum for more than just trying to make a buck or spread BS has also been diluted.
    I agree completely, but what can you do?

    Almost none of that, to be fair, is the moderators' fault, you know?

    Anyway, I'm glad you're still posting, even if you're not "reporting".


    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I don't blame the moderators but the forum has been 'dumbed down' - there's no argument with that.

      In my view, it's just entering a different phase. It's my choice whether I want to participate in this phase or not. My guess is before long the answer will be "probably not". That's neither here nor there as far the forum is concerned.

      I find the attitude and the respect for other views/opinions has eroded significantly. Not the mods fault - it's likely a result of many changes in focus and in membership[.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        In my view, it's just entering a different phase. It's my choice whether I want to participate in this phase or not. My guess is before long the answer will be "probably not". That's neither here nor there as far the forum is concerned.
        I'm still undecided, at the moment, but I agree and I'm afraid all of that's probably true for myself, too.

        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        And then you have the daily recycled lectures by the self appointed know-it-alls trying to capture another victim for their coaching, resulting in the next generation of self appointed know-it-alls.
        I'm sorry to say I agree with that, too. But that's really difficult to correct, I think. They do most of their promotion by private message. (I sometimes hear from the people they've "coached", and quite a lot of the accounts of the bullshit they've been "taught" make my hair stand on end. I do think that's a different problem, though. I'm not denying that it's what happens, of course - there's no question about that. Maybe it's even always been happening, here, and it's only comparatively recently that I've become aware of it? I just don't know.)

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author salegurus
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I'm still undecided, at the moment, but I agree and I'm afraid all of that's probably true for myself, too.

          .
          Yip, we've already had this discussion and you know what my answer was..




          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I don't blame the moderators but the forum has been 'dumbed down' - there's no argument with that.

          In my view, it's just entering a different phase. It's my choice whether I want to participate in this phase or not. My guess is before long the answer will be "probably not". That's neither here nor there as far the forum is concerned.

          I find the attitude and the respect for other views/opinions has eroded significantly. Not the mods fault - it's likely a result of many changes in focus and in membership[.
          Agreed, being the largest IM forum (at least in numbers) comes with it's own set of con's...
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        • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I'm sorry to say I agree with that, too. But that's really difficult to correct, I think.
          .
          Not that difficult at all. They should be moved from the main forum into the mind forum.
          They have nothing to do with discussion and are supposed to be inspirational, at least to the gullible.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I don't blame the moderators but the forum has been 'dumbed down' - there's no argument with that.

        In my view, it's just entering a different phase. It's my choice whether I want to participate in this phase or not. My guess is before long the answer will be "probably not". That's neither here nor there as far the forum is concerned.

        I find the attitude and the respect for other views/opinions has eroded significantly. Not the mods fault - it's likely a result of many changes in focus and in membership.
        I've noticed it a little myself. But in the Off topic forum, and the Offline Forum, it's easy to just stick with the smarter, or funnier posts.

        I'm assuming you guys are talking about the main forum. I can't go there at all. It makes me cry.
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        • Profile picture of the author salegurus
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


          I'm assuming you guys are talking about the main forum. I can't go there at all. It makes me cry.
          LOL, you and me both...
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I don't blame the moderators but the forum has been 'dumbed down' - there's no argument with that.

        In my view, it's just entering a different phase. It's my choice whether I want to participate in this phase or not. My guess is before long the answer will be "probably not". That's neither here nor there as far the forum is concerned.

        I find the attitude and the respect for other views/opinions has eroded significantly. Not the mods fault - it's likely a result of many changes in focus and in membership[.
        I don't have the demographics on it, but I think when you and I joined there was an over all different experience level here among the members. Then the WF was the forum with the top marketers as members, now it's the top marketing forum but most of the top marketers are gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

    Hi my name is Theo and i was a serial reporter....

    Over the years here on WF iv'e mostly kept to myself, made a few acquaintances and also angered a few (Well maybe more) with my direct no BS approach...
    A lot of my time was spent reporting posts/threads for various reasons, my way of helping out to keep the forum clean and organized.

    Unfortunately iv'e realized that it's become a exercise in futility...
    Stupid questions my 6 year old could google in 2 min, rehashed/regurgitated answers, exaggeration,outright lies,link dropping and the list goes on...
    I'm sure the Mods are trying but maybe it's just too much for them...

    IMO, not only has the quality of content on WF dropped to KinderGarden level, but the number of members who actually loved the forum for more than just trying to make a buck or spread BS has also been diluted.

    I remember when i first found WF (long before i joined) the MF was chock-a-block with helpful useful info, you would actually leave feeling that you've learned something but that has been changing for a while, long before the change over...

    Now i actually feel dumber after spending a few mins reading through some of the threads, it makes me wonder about the IQ of some of these new members...

    Anyway, i have not reported anything for about 10 days now and i feel great.....
    And then you have the daily recycled lectures by the self appointed
    know-it-alls trying to capture another victim for their coaching,
    resulting in the next generation of self appointed know-it-alls.
    All very predictable these days.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Theo, I'm glad you feel better too and, like Alexa, sad that you've stopped reporting (although I totally understand why!!).

      Kindergarten level is definitely how the main discussion forum feels (I rarely venture into the others). In fact, a thread in that section caught my eye a short while ago - I just shook my head while reading it. Essentially it was a ridiculous rant by someone who so destroyed the English language that a couple people questioned if the OP was written by an article spinner - yeah, it was that bad. (Well, at least I think that was what they thought, because their English wasn't much better if I recall...)

      I get that this is a global forum and that many members don't speak English as their first language. But, I don't really understand participating on a forum if you really struggle with the language as much as some of these members do.

      But it's not just a language issue. It's the thread topics and responses. Questions that get asked over and over in the same day that could easily be answered with a quick search. And then the lectures by people who aren't interested in a discussion - they just want to show off their (self-perceived) amazing knowledge (Mind Warriors has a lot of these threads lately) or get the link for their product or coaching program out there...

      It's never been this bad in all the years I've been here.

      Maybe it's just temporary growing pains, which is normal after change in ownership. I don't think it's the mods. They've been great at removing spam posts and even a couple complete nonsense threads in the OT section that I reported the other day (others may have reported those too, as several people were getting annoyed). However, the types of threads you're reporting are trickier - the "line" is often gray. But I'm glad you were reporting them - even if it seems to be futile. I would hope it helps the mods get a better feel for what works and what doesn't.

      Sadly, though, if things don't improve fairly soon, I think many of the subforums - and especially the main discussion forum - will deteriorate so far that the damage will be irreparable - both in terms of losing the participation of valuable older members and also new members with something to offer quickly deciding WF isn't worth their time. And then all that remain will be the blind leading the blind and a whole lot of nonsense discussions populated by the intellectually challenged and those who'll reply just to get exposure to some link in their signature.

      Sigh. I'm sounding like a snob, which really isn't my intent...

      Theo, don't become a stranger! You can always hang out with us here in the OT forum. The discussions get pretty silly and you can count on every thread getting completely derailed in a millisecond, but there's no shortage of intelligent posters down here!
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        Mind Warriors has a lot of these threads lately
        What Mind Warriors has a lot of, at the moment, is threads begun by pasting in an entire article stolen from the web, unaccredited, just making it look like a "forum post". (They often stand out a mile, too: they're generally significantly better-written - and much longer - than anything else in there, even if their content's mostly nonsense anyway).

        I've reported about 25-30 of those, over the last 24 hours.

        The moderators do remove them, if you say "pasted in from here" and give a link - but you have to report each one individually (they seem not to look through people's previous posts to remove the rest, even if you mention "+ member's other posts" - apparently we have to do that, too!), and sometimes their posters just continue doing the same thing anyway (which really does make it somewhat questionable whether it's all worthwhile, I must admit).

        I might just add Mind Warriors on to the list of forums I don't visit ("SEO" is at the top!).

        But if people like Theo and I resort to doing that, the place gets worse, instead of better, doesn't it?

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          What Mind Warriors has a lot of, at the moment, is threads begun by pasting in an entire article stolen from the web, unaccredited, just making it look like a "forum post".
          I don't usually read them beyond the first couple of sentences as I don't care for the preachy, self-aggrandizing tone. I never thought about checking to see if they were copied from elsewhere, and I'm not familiar enough with any of the frequent posters there to know their writing style. Good eye, Alexa!
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    • Profile picture of the author boydstone
      Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

      And then you have the daily recycled lectures by the self appointed
      know-it-alls trying to capture another victim for their coaching,
      resulting in the next generation of self appointed know-it-alls.
      All very predictable these days.
      You've hit the nail on the head. I wish there was a way to teach sincere newbies about these high-testosterone sociopaths, teach them what the sociopaths are after, and teach them how to avoid buying from the sociopaths. Or maybe just teach the sincere newbies how to select a coach so as to avoid the sociopaths. Religion and MMO draw sociopaths like shit draws flies.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Not blaming Mods either, like i said they are probably doing their best to plug the holes... Sort of reminds me of the Dutch boy plugging the Dyke with his finger...
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    I haven't been to the main forum in.... well actually I can't remember the last time I was there.

    Any time I spend on the WF is now down here in the "bar" section.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

    Unfortunately iv'e realized that it's become an exercise in futility...Stupid questions my 6 year old could google in 2 min, rehashed/regurgitated answers, exaggeration,outright lies,link dropping and the list goes on...
    I'm sure the Mods are trying but maybe it's just too much for them...
    Unfortunately, withe the exception of link dropping, there are no written rules against the above. It's not against TOS to ask stupid questions, rehash or regurgitate information, exaggerate, or lie.

    So therefore, it's very difficult to report those things and I don't even try. I stick to the obvious self promotion, link dropping, affiliate links, etc. that has always been against TOS.

    The problem is the single-minded focus Freelancer has had on increasing membership numbers with zero regard to whether those members will actually be an asset to the Warrior Forum. It's all a mindless numbers game with them. They get a new member for WF, they create an account on Freelancer for that member, unbeknownst to them, and somewhere down the road, they lay claim to having the largest Freelancing site on the planet. A prospective buyer isn't going to know that hundreds of thousands of those members are not participating members.

    That's my take on it anyway. I still report the obvious infractions and mindless growth is not the mod's fault.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    One reason the same questions get asked 24/7 is the forum search is useless.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I just go here or the offline marketing forum, so I've been spared of that. It sounds like medieval torture for modern times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Hey Theo,

    I understand. It's extremely frustrating.

    Why not try a different approach instead of giving up on the forum all together. If I recall, you have a B&M store, right? Why not share some of your insights about business, marketing, etc. that applies online and off?

    In other words, focus on upping the level of conversation versus just reporting (and getting frustrated) at the current low levels.

    With your no-nonsense approach in the answers you give that I've seen, I think this new approach may can help you and us both.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    If the mods are paid for their time in the forum, I'm sure they're clicking on at least new threads to check them. Sometimes spam is entered into the middle or at the end of a thread, though, so I report those since they can be easily missed. I'm sure even in a paid position, mods don't have time to read every post.

    I'd like to blame all of the decrease in usefulness of the MF on Freelancer. Their membership is mostly the500 words for 3 bucks crowd. The drop in stimulating conversation could have been predicted right there. However - the quality of discussion here was going on before Freelancer. Might even be one of the reasons that Allen decided it was time to take a walk on it.

    In the long run, the decay of the conversation here should have been predictable even without the Freelancer acquisition. It's open to anyone to join and is an MMO based model. The "earn big bucks with no education crowd" is a very large one and look who created a lot of those types in here.

    I remember years back many of the more solid members would slam anything that was written with too much hype. The money was too attractive that resulted and now we're seeing the ripple effect. We've now got people who will rehash anything and everything to make a buck because they had "no education, skills, experience" and continue to hype their sales pages. They haven't the faintest clue what making an actually valuable product entails. They were able to catch the lightly technical end of slamming a product together, but don't have the experience or knowledge to understand anything from an expert level or how to create something of quality, maybe even not much of an idea what quality consists of. We all know exactly what rolls downhill.
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    • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      If the mods are paid for their time in the forum, I'm sure they're clicking on at least new threads to check them. Sometimes spam is entered into the middle or at the end of a thread, though, so I report those since they can be easily missed. I'm sure even in a paid position, mods don't have time to read every post.

      I'd like to blame all of the decrease in usefulness of the MF on Freelancer. Their membership is mostly the500 words for 3 bucks crowd. The drop in stimulating conversation could have been predicted right there. However - the quality of discussion here was going on before Freelancer. Might even be one of the reasons that Allen decided it was time to take a walk on it.

      In the long run, the decay of the conversation here should have been predictable even without the Freelancer acquisition. It's open to anyone to join and is an MMO based model. The "earn big bucks with no education crowd" is a very large one and look who created a lot of those types in here.

      I remember years back many of the more solid members would slam anything that was written with too much hype. The money was too attractive that resulted and now we're seeing the ripple effect. We've now got people who will rehash anything and everything to make a buck because they had "no education, skills, experience" and continue to hype their sales pages. They haven't the faintest clue what making an actually valuable product entails. They were able to catch the lightly technical end of slamming a product together, but don't have the experience or knowledge to understand anything from an expert level or how to create something of quality, maybe even not much of an idea what quality consists of. We all know exactly what rolls downhill.


      That's because there are WSO's that teach just that! They prey on newbies and tell them anyone can do this by going through the WSO section and search out the one's with large view counts and replies and wala there is your hungry market.

      They either buy a wso, beg for a review copy or obtain one illegally and rehash the same crap over and over.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Theo,

    The ultra-basic questions are a compound problem. For starters, we just went through months in which there was no point in telling people to use the search function because there was none. That creates a flow of repetitious stuff, which sets an example that is followed by other new folks.

    That's always been something that had to be balanced. The percentage of new and totally inexperienced members hanging out in main discussion has been growing for years. That's partly due to the proliferation of specialized sub-sections, but mostly just because the idea that making money online isn't some pipe dream is becoming familiar to a lot more people.

    Lots of other factors. Low cost broadband in most other countries, the growth of outsourcing, ease of sale and delivery, and declining hardware costs are big ones.

    And there's the all too predictable one: The hiring of low wage ESL workers to do "marketing" jobs like posting for links, spamming forums, shilling, etc. That's rotated through different countries as the years have gone by, and there's always an increased number of people from those countries participating here as the cycle moves on.

    It has always been considered the responsibility of new people in any online community to learn the rules and customs of the community. Along with that, the established members have always had the job of teaching new folks how to navigate and interact in those communities.

    If either side gets out of balance, things get borked. We've been fighting a bigger than usual balance problem for a couple of years now. Some of it is just the world's population catching up with us. Some is the abuse of the system by people from certain countries who use extortion and abuse as ways to get what they want, and then scream that the mods are "protecting scammers" when their lies are deleted. And a big chunk is the result of deluded idiots who don't understand the difference between maintaining standards and being "elitist."

    Ultimately, those are mostly things the members have to "enforce." That happened as it should for a long time, but it ebbs and flows with volume, and the cycle was stuck at a low level for longer than usual.

    The mods can't do that part. It's not their function, and arguably not a proper primary role for them.

    The issue of English as a very poor second language is connected, but not quite the same. That's just numbers catching up.

    Once we got enough active and experienced mods to tackle more than just maintenance, I sent Allen an email about ideas for cutting down on that problem. That was only a day or two before the sale went through, so it was a bit late.

    It's a really tricky thing to handle. Some of it, like this "alyssaalyssana" or whoever, are simply recurring spammers who need summary nuking. Not only do they pollute the discussions, they encourage others who couldn't write a proper grocery list in English to jump in with similarly useless comments.

    I think you'd find that fewer than 2 dozen people generate the majority of that garbage. Seriously.

    Beyond those, it's tough. It was even tougher when the search function was broken and you couldn't look at someone's recent posting history to see if a given post was an isolated issue or part of a pattern that needed addressed.

    The goal is to welcome anyone who can and wants to participate in the discussions productively and civilly. Unintelligible comments aren't productive, but that line is grey.

    The ONLY area where the new mods might carry any responsibility for this is along that edge. The ones I've communicated with do quite well in English. Better than many of our American members for whom it's a first language, in fact. Still, since English is not the primary/only language for them, they may tend to allow more slack than the old mods did. They may not even notice the deficiencies in that area in some posts.

    That's not meant as a personal criticism, by any means. Their English is far better than my Tagalog. But it's still an issue that can potentially develop into a long-term problem. Given the current realities here, I'm not sure what the answer might be.

    If it's not properly adjusted for, though, it's got a predictable outcome. Most of us have seen what happens to forums where pidgin is the standard.

    Not pretty.


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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Some of it, like this "alyssaalyssana" or whoever, are simply recurring spammers who need summary nuking. Not only do they pollute the discussions, they encourage others who couldn't write a proper grocery list in English to jump in with similarly useless comments.
      They finally managed to get that particular profile's post-count up to 50 yesterday, anyway (having made perhaps 75 posts with it, altogether, of which about a third were deleted), so they can advertise it for sale now, and doubtless the moderators will nuke its new owner anyway, as soon as he does any cookie-stuffing, or whatever?

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        They finally managed to get that particular profile's post-count up to 50 yesterday, anyway (having made perhaps 75 posts with it, altogether, of which about a third were deleted), so they can advertise it for sale now, and doubtless the moderators will nuke its new owner anyway, as soon as he does any cookie-stuffing, or whatever?
        The problem I see with new moderation is that they don't seem to actually take on a subforum and open the threads and seek out the spammers and nuke them. Even when I report one, I have to go to the history and get and report them all before they are nuked. Sometimes they're banned, sometimes not ... when it is really obvious from their histories that they are NOTHING but a spammer and should just be nuked permanently. They'll be back under a new ID in no time at all, but why treat them as their anything other than a spammer and just delete their posts or give them a temp ban? Some of the mods do nuke them, and probably ... hopefully a perma ban, but not all.

        They don't seem to proactively open threads and clean them out without individual reports. I see this is Social Media all the time with all the auto-Facebook/Twitter/Youtube "tools" being shilled constantly. Mobile ad networks in Mobile are just as bad.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Even when I report one, I have to go to the history and get and report them all before they are nuked.
          Yes; this is my experience, also.

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          They'll be back under a new ID in no time at all
          Yes. And this perhaps raises a question I've often wondered about, even with the most blatant and unpleasant trolls (of whom one or two remain among us, as you know!): there's actually an argument for not banning them (maybe?) because at least if you don't, you know who they are and it's easier to keep an eye on them? They can have multiple profiles too, I suppose, so it's perhaps not as simple as I'm suggesting. I don't know what's "right", really. I suppose it must be right to remove spammers, though, becase that affects the overall appearance and quality of the whole forum?

          I also think (even if only on "public policy" grounds) that it must be right to remove the people who habitually steal others' articles and paste them in, unattributed, as "forum posts", but the moderators and/or their "policy-setters" clearly don't agree with me about that one. Well, that's their right.

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Yes. And this perhaps raises a question I've often wondered about, even with the most blatant and unpleasant trolls (of whom one or two remain among us, as you know!): there's actually an argument for not banning them (maybe?) because at least if you don't, you know who they are and it's easier to keep an eye on them? They can have multiple profiles too, I suppose, so it's perhaps not as simple as I'm suggesting. I don't know what's "right", really. I suppose it must be right to remove spammers, though, becase that affects the overall appearance and quality of the whole forum?


            .
            It's not really that difficult given the tools that the mods have.
            But it means a couple of minutes extra work, perish the thought.
            Like nuking a bunch of junk and not just the one reported.
            Until they start using some initiative there's not much hope.
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Yes; this is my experience, also.

            I also think (even if only on "public policy" grounds) that it must be right to remove the people who habitually steal others' articles and paste them in, unattributed, as "forum posts", but the moderators and/or their "policy-setters" clearly don't agree with me about that one. Well, that's their right.
            Yeah, they are not even banning all members or closing all WSO threads where the OP has been busted showing/advertising and/or selling pirated material. In one such thread the OP was advertising that he was working closely with a popular software developer (software that the graphics worked in) and he was also advertising his "creations" being sold on a third party graphics website.

            The person that actually created the graphics contacted WF, the software developers, and the third party website and a couple things happened. The software devloper immediately cut ties with the WF member and the third party website deleted the sales account of the pirate but the Warrior Forum did nothing!

            The WSO is still open and the pirated material is still be shown as a credibility builder on the OP's sales copy.

            Good grief! It appears as if Freelancer does not take a very hard line against blackhatters, pirates, plagiarism, spammers, or the self-serving link droppers. In the old days the pirate would have been dealt with but Freelancer evidently does not seem to be so responsive. It's sad, but true.

            Cheers

            -don
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            • Profile picture of the author mattbarrie
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              Yeah, they are not even banning all members or closing all WSO threads where the OP has been busted showing/advertising and/or selling pirated material. In one such thread the OP was advertising that he was working closely with a popular software developer (software that the graphics worked in) and he was also advertising his "creations" being sold on a third party graphics website.

              The person that actually created the graphics contacted WF, the software developers, and the third party website and a couple things happened. The software devloper immediately cut ties with the WF member and the third party website deleted the sales account of the pirate but the Warrior Forum did nothing!

              The WSO is still open and the pirated material is still be shown as a credibility builder on the OP's sales copy.

              Good grief! It appears as if Freelancer does not take a very hard line against blackhatters, pirates, plagiarism, spammers, or the self-serving link droppers. In the old days the pirate would have been dealt with but Freelancer evidently does not seem to be so responsive. It's sad, but true.

              Cheers

              -don
              Can you point me to the spammers here and I will get the team to address it. Our moderator team is growing day by day and hunting this stuff down, so please report anything bad you see and we'll address it.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          ...they don't seem to actually take on a subforum and open the threads and seek out the spammers and nuke them.





          ★ BINGO ★







          .....................
          Signature
          Hi
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          • Profile picture of the author salegurus
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            Hey Theo,

            I understand. It's extremely frustrating.

            Why not try a different approach instead of giving up on the forum all together. If I recall, you have a B&M store, right? Why not share some of your insights about business, marketing, etc. that applies online and off?

            In other words, focus on upping the level of conversation versus just reporting (and getting frustrated) at the current low levels.

            With your no-nonsense approach in the answers you give that I've seen, I think this new approach may can help you and us both.

            Mark
            Mark
            I would have no problem sharing what iv'e learned in the past 23 odd years but in a atmosphere of get rich quick, earn incredible amounts of money with little effort etc i don't know how well it will go down... When...
            You tell people you worked 12-15hour days, weekends, holidays and all that while not sitting in your lounge dressed in your PJ's...
            Signature
            Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

            ― George Carlin
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            • Profile picture of the author salegurus
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              Yeah, they are not even banning members or closing all WSO threads where the OP has been busted showing/advertising and/or selling pirated material. -don
              That's not good at all...

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              I have to go to the history and get and report them all before they are nuked. Sometimes they're banned, sometimes not ... when it is really obvious from their histories that they are NOTHING but a spammer and should just be nuked permanently.
              I used to do the same thing, so i know what you're saying...

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              be back under a new ID in no time at all,
              I thought Mods had the ability to ban IP,s or blocks of IP's?
              Signature
              Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

              ― George Carlin
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

                I thought Mods had the ability to ban IP,s or blocks of IP's?
                They can conceal their IP's with "poxy servers" or whatever they're called.

                Occasionally, though, they screw up and post from their own IP number by mistake, and the mods can spot that and remove them. There was one (with the same sort of name) which had nearly got up to the magic 50 posts and then made one post from the wrong IP number, and they deleted it, and all the posts (and kindly told me, since I'd been "reporting" that one a bit).

                I think they aim for 50 posts because they advertise them for sale elsewhere as "Warrior Forum profiles in good standing with 50+ posts". At least, those are the ads I've seen, and that certainly fits the posting-pattern of many of these profiles with this type of username - they get to just over 50 posts and then stop.

                .
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            • Profile picture of the author NetSensei
              Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

              Mark
              I would have no problem sharing what iv'e learned in the past 23 odd years but in a atmosphere of get rich quick, earn incredible amounts of money with little effort etc i don't know how well it will go down... When...
              You tell people you worked 12-15hour days, weekends, holidays and all that while not sitting in your lounge dressed in your PJ's...
              I am in absolute agreement with the idea that more of the truth of success should be addressed. Here and elsewhere. As someone who has been in sales and marketing my entire life, it is always a question that comes up.

              How to sell with integrity, while positioning for maximum sales. I once talked to a sales manager of a large chain of jewelry stores. They always had a 50% sale running, so I asked about it. He told me that he and few dozen other managers petitioned the upper management to let them remove the constant 50% sale signs and only offer it for a limited time, a few times a year. Sales dropped so dramatically that the company discontinued it after only a couple of months.

              As soon as the 50% off signs went back up... sales had returned to normal in less than 2 weeks.

              I was on a webinar where a well known marketer was showing how he put together a launch. One of the attendees complained the he clearly was working 12+ hours a day and that was "Not living the internet dream".

              The successful marketer replied... yes, your idea is a dream that will not come true. But my dream is a daily reality.

              The fact is that most want to dream of some fantasy land instead doing the hard work of creating a dreamy reality.

              Some only want to dream... and on the cloudy days (when they feel down) complain that it is all just a scam. Others are too busy working on creating and building their dreams to worry about it.

              Mark
              Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Some of it, like this "alyssaalyssana" or whoever, are simply recurring spammers who need summary nuking. Not only do they pollute the discussions, they encourage others who couldn't write a proper grocery list in English to jump in with similarly useless comments.
      Since whoever-they-are got that profile up to its target of 50 posts, yesterday, they were due to register another new one today (with the same name-type, same sort of posts, and so on).

      And sure enough, right on target, here it is: View Profile: alannaalanis

      (At least it's not another "alexaalexia" or "alexaalexandra" this time. Those are even more irritating than the others. ).

      But hey ... there's nothing anyone can do about it because "there's no evidence that any rules are being broken, and you need evidence, to take action".

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Since whoever-they-are got that profile up to its target of 50 posts, yesterday, they were due to register another new one today (with the same name-type, same sort of posts, and so on).

        And sure enough, right on target, here it is: View Profile: alannaalanis

        (At least it's not another "alexaalexia" or "alexaalexandra" this time. Those are even more irritating than the others. ).

        But hey ... there's nothing anyone can do about it because "there's no evidence that any rules are being broken, and you need evidence, to take action".

        .
        Yeah ... a real valuable member.


        Q: Is it ok to use an image from other website? though I will put below the image like "image is owned by other website" with a link pointing on their website.

        What do you think guys?

        alannaalanis: Yes, you can do this. If you put the source file name, there will no break the copyright law. But if the image is fully restriction to use anywhere except their site, it may break the copyright law. No plagiarism, please. Thanks
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Q: Is it ok to use an image from other website? though I will put below the image like "image is owned by other website" with a link pointing on their website.

          What do you think guys?

          alannaalanis: Yes, you can do this. If you put the source file name, there will no break the copyright law. But if the image is fully restriction to use anywhere except their site, it may break the copyright law. No plagiarism, please. Thanks
          Yes - very characteristic posting-style and "information": they've said that exact thing, responding to the same question, under various other very similar names, too. And they say the same about taking people's articles. "It's ok as long as you give a link to the original". (Except that their answer's been through a spinner or "Google translate" before being posted, as well).

          .
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        And sure enough, right on target, here it is: View Profile: alannaalanis
        And sure enough, David Beroff & Stephen Root have already visited it.



        Cheers

        -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Alexa,
    But hey ... there's nothing anyone can do about it because "there's no evidence that any rules are being broken, and you need evidence, to take action".
    The standard of evidence should be dependent on the investment the member has in the profile. A non-paying member who's posting junk and has very few posts should just be removed.

    Paying members should get more slack, but not because of the cash to the forum. The reasoning is that they're more likely to adjust to follow the rules since they have some skin in the game. Temp bans will almost always work for those folks.

    Removing someone with a big investment of time and contribution to the discussions should always be a last option, and be backed with more than just casual motivation. Especially if you're affecting their incomes.

    That said, there are things which should always result in permanent bans. Refusal to honor a posted refund policy, posting demonstrably fake testimonials, faked income screen shots, and any other clear scamming. Certain excessive abuses in discussion sections, spamming via PMs (not to be confused with sending business invitations that are not random and bulk in nature), and a few others.

    The object isn't to punish anyone. It's to stop behavior that harms the members or the forum. The desired measure is to use the least excessive means that will achieve that end.

    It's easy to forget that the new mods are still learning. In the past, a person had to have a very clear history here before I'd even think about suggesting them as mods. They understood the community based on long experience.

    The new folks don't have that experience. Unfortunately, they're unlikely to get certain aspects of it because they're not regular members participating for their own reasons. There are patterns they may never learn.

    Hopefully, the other advantages will more than make up for that.


    Paul
    Signature
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author HN
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Removing someone with a big investment of time and contribution to the discussions should always be a last option, and be backed with more than just casual motivation. Especially if you're affecting their incomes.
      Paul
      OK, that explains a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Alexa,

    They may also be people setting up accounts for PM spamming. That's where the "50 posts and drop" thing was most common. But yeah, selling accounts is another part of it.

    As an FYI, banning IPs does little to stop the spammers, and a lot to slow down the forum overall. If we started banning big net blocks, the people paying the spammers would just buy VPN accounts or load them up with proxies. And too many legit users surf with proxies to start banning those wholesale. The false positives would outweigh the benefits.


    Paul
    Signature
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Alexa,

      They may also be people setting up accounts for PM spamming.
      Yes - that makes complete sense, too ... because I've noticed when you click on their profiles, they're sometimes shown as "private messaging" even when they're brand new and might hardly know anyone here?

      Thanks, Paul.


      .
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Alexa,

      They may also be people setting up accounts for PM spamming. That's where the "50 posts and drop" thing was most common. But yeah, selling accounts is another part of it.

      As an FYI, banning IPs does little to stop the spammers, and a lot to slow down the forum overall. If we started banning big net blocks, the people paying the spammers would just buy VPN accounts or load them up with proxies. And too many legit users surf with proxies to start banning those wholesale. The false positives would outweigh the benefits.


      Paul
      Cheers for the explanation, i was under the wrong impression, when it comes to proxies and such i'm no expert...
      Signature
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

      ― George Carlin
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  • Profile picture of the author HN
    Banned
    Well, that's easy. Talk to 10 or 20 people and create your own forum where you are the boss, together with your partners. If you don't need hundreds of dumb answers to your question, but a few solid ones, by people that you respect, then it shouldn't be that difficult to arrive at such an idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Perfect example of what I'm talking about:

    Originally Posted by goldenbold View Post

    Dear warriors!
    I am have good news!
    Do you want guaranteed money ?
    If yes i am can tell you so nice money making method.
    If interested please send pm!
    It's free and easy!
    Everyone can make money with this project!!!
    So in 2+ hours nobody has reported this fool?
    He/She has been a member for a while and should know better, it's not only new members.....
    Signature
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

    ― George Carlin
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

      Perfect example of what I'm talking about:



      So in 2+ hours nobody has reported this fool?
      He/She has been a member for a while and should know better, it's not only new members.....
      Note that the below is in no way solely written towards you or written with the intent of offending anyone.

      Theo, no offense but you are right - this is a prime example of the problem. Here the problem I'm referring to is NOT spammers, newbies, idiots, etc.

      Here the problem is that you are sick of it, I've been sick of it (but have mostly repented), Joe is sick of it, Joes' brother is sick of it, etc. and so no one reports the junk while at the same time complaining about how much junk there is. Something wrong there.

      Likewise, we have the ability to raise the level of conversation like has been mentioned. But do we?

      Also, we have the ability to shut down many of the crappy WSOs that we complain about? How? We could all volunteer 10 minutes to do reviews when people ask for them. Then - and this is what 99.99% are unwilling to do - send the review warts and all and include it in the WSO page.

      It's been said before that reviewers don't want to hurt the vendors so they either don't write a review at all (after knowing it's junk) or they quit reviewing things because they didn't want to be in the uncomfortable position of being the one that causes Joe Warrior's lights to get turned off because his WSO failed because we honestly said it was crap and wouldn't work. Others have mentioned something about back scratching. Yet the same ones complaining about the state of the WSO section are not willing to "man up" and make it better.

      The same goes for tactics that even some of the people I like use. For example, they burn and churn their list, write WSOs about how to build relationships, while also posting in threads about using throwaway email addresses to avoid the "spam." The "spam" is caused by them and their ilk. This perpetuates the problem - doesn't make it better - it makes it worse.

      My point is that there is a lot of self-policing that could happen that isn't happening. There is a lot of complaining. There is a lot of frustration. There is a lot of avoidance (I just stay in the OT section because I'm tired of the junk upstairs type thinking).

      If the WF is in trouble it's NOT because of Allen or FL totally. Yes they set the rules. Yes their judgment is different than ours on some things. Yes a lot of it or most of it is on their hands.

      But we are the ones buying the WSOs, letting others buy them, encouraging bad behavior by not standing up to it, avoiding the problems, complaining without being willing to do anything ourselves, etc.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


        Also, we have the ability to shut down many of the crappy WSOs that we complain about? How? We could all volunteer 10 minutes to do reviews when people ask for them. Then - and this is what 99.99% are unwilling to do - send the review warts and all and include it in the WSO page.
        That doesn't always work Mark.
        One of the longest running WSO scammers we have here,
        knows exactly who to put the pressure on to get those removed.
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          That doesn't always work Mark.
          One of the longest running WSO scammers we have here,
          knows exactly who to put the pressure on to get those removed.
          Great point. The last WSO I bought was complete crap. I left a polite, but uncomplimentary review in the thread. Minutes later my post was deleted.

          Ironically, the seller was banned for offering crappy no-value WSO's not long afterwards.
          Signature
          Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
          It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

            Great point. The last WSO I bought was complete crap. I left a polite, but uncomplimentary review in the thread. Minutes later my post was deleted.

            Ironically, the seller was banned for offering crappy no-value WSO's not long afterwards.
            It appears to me that for both the War Room and the WSO forum, the only requirement to get a product listed is that you have the money to shoot over to Freelancer. I've heard more than one comment on WSO fraud not being dealt with by banning the seller and removing the product. The WSO listings are so saturated with the Ariba Ariba ... anyone can post a WSO and make a boatload of cash people that's it's not worth visiting any longer.

            I rather suspect that the WSO is also in serious decline, as the overall forum is. All you have to do is take a look at the Warrior Payments marketplace, for those who use WarPay and see the lack of sales in those listings. Even an idiot will get the message after paying $20 per listing that it's simply not profitable to keep paying for a listing here.

            As for participating, reporting ... all that ... I do my share. I still report a lot. I'm not going to contrive conversations to elevate the forum conversations. I never had to contrive conversations before and I'm not going to do it now. I'm also not going to try to elevate the knowledge of people that I can barely understand. And I won't be spending any additional time to review products that I have zero interest in.

            I will continue to help fight blatant spam and self promotion in the threads, but even that gets old when you spend several hours reporting all the threads on the first page of a sub-forum to clean it out and within two days it's in the same condition that it was to begin with, and that's just one sub-forum. I'm not paid to do this, but I do it anyway, but being just one person, there's a limit on what I can do and how much impact it has on the forum.

            They really should assign a mod to each sub-forum and make it their responsibility to open threads and learn the patterns of self promoters and spammers. Some of it is very obvious and some less so, but you're never going to learn it if you don't read the forum. As it is now, if the few people left who report posts all get sick of the futility of it, this place would be nothing but spam, with the exception of OT because the regulars here are simply not going to give in to it. Ironically, it will be the subforum with the liveliest conversations going on, albeit having nothing at all to do with the forum's core purpose - Internet Marketing.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              I rather suspect that the WSO is also in serious decline, as the overall forum is. All you have to do is take a look at the Warrior Payments marketplace, for those who use WarPay and see the lack of sales in those listings. Even an idiot will get the message after paying $20 per listing that it's simply not profitable to keep paying for a listing here.
              Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the sales stats displayed are for the number of sales made by affiliates and not sales directly from the WSO itself.
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

                Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the sales stats displayed are for the number of sales made by affiliates and not sales directly from the WSO itself.
                I'm not aware that is what the sales numbers reflects. It simply says sales.

                So, in response to the "we're cracking down on income claims" ... I'm not seeing that. This is just page one of the WSO forum from minutes ago with the listings with no income claims in the title removed.

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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Not all members here take such a passive stance...

    I reported the post mentioned above and I have had no regrets posting a review that was less than positive when asked to do an honest review for a vendor. Some of this is on the users, but employing all new mods that know basically nothing about internet marketing or the forum past has left the door wide open for BS hell to walk through. This is not all on the users...some of this falls on management, especially when you consider some of the mods and/or admins can't tell shi* from a shingle.

    Cheers

    -don

    Note: The post has been removed at this point.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    What I find a bit comedic and/or appalling is the number of folks trying to use the War Room as a PLR dump these days. Freelancer raised the price to $99 bucks a year yet they are approving ancient PLR that can be picked up anywhere and everywhere.

    Sure I have been reporting what I have been finding, and some of it has been deleted after multiple reports, but it's pretty ridiculous what passes as WSOs and War Room material these days.

    Freelancer adds domain sales and an affiliate program but IMO they have done LITTLE to NOTHING so far to maintain what is left of the Warrior Forum (quality). Dumping the old ways and the old mods is not helping at all. In-fact IMO it's been quite detrimental...

    Get your old 3rd party PLR here...just $99 bucks a year!

    http://www.warriorforum.com/war-room...-no-optin.html

    http://www.warriorforum.com/war-room...ml#post9677127

    I reported this thread --> and hopefully it will be deleted soon. If it's not deleted then it looks like the War Room could be on it's way to becoming a massive PLR and Resale Rights garbage dump.

    What makes this even funnier is the delivered PLR license from PLRStore.com (which is not resolving) states...

    [NO]Can be given away for free
    [NO]Can be added to free membership website
    Funny stuff, eh?

    How can these new guys be expected to know some of this stuff? They can't ...therefore the quality of the forum content automatically drops. What's the payoff for we members that spend time reporting BS posts and deals? Not freaking much these days. Sure they delete the spam and stuffed cookies but they are VERY hit and miss with the rest of the reports.

    But yeah, sometimes I do ask myself "is nobody else reporting some of this stuff?" and/or "are the mods and admins asleep at the wheel?". But then I realize that some of the BS stuff that I have reported multiple times is still on the board so obviously someone with some power (or lack of) has decided it's perfectly appropriate for the forum.

    Just calling it the way I see it...

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author kilgore
    I'm definitely too new here to bemoan the good old days -- and maybe I even qualify as one of the "self-appointed know-it-alls" referenced above -- but to my way of thinking the main problem with the WF can be summed up in three letters: MMO.

    I don't have a problem with the MMO niche per se, nor with people who engage in it, but what I don't like is the feeling that every other post around here was written by someone who is trying to sell you something. The outcome is that the WF often feels less like a community of people trying to help each other and more like Times Square, with a bunch of shady characters hawking the digital equivalent of cheap-looking, knock-off Rolex Watches to unsuspecting tourists.

    From a business perspective the situation is actually pretty interesting -- though definitely in a "don't run your business like this" sort of way. I view one of the biggest -- if not the biggest -- strategic advantages of the WF to be the quality of forums, but the monetization methods the WF has chosen seem (to me at least) to undermine this. As just one example, monetizing premium signatures essentially makes it in the WF's financial interest for people to post a lot of garbage so that the signatures they just purchased will be seen. But of course that's not the only way that their business model undermines their core business.

    Fundamentally, I think the WF needs to decide whether it's going to be an MMO marketplace or a lively community of users genuinely trying to help each other out. I really don't see how it do both well. There's too much of a conflict of interest between the two sides of the business.

    Personally, I'm much, much more interested in the community than the marketplace. I've never bought anything through the WF, I've never sold anything through the WF and I probably never will. But the sad thing is, if I were in Freelancer's shoes, I'm not sure I'd pick community over marketplace. Given that there always seem to be double the users browsing the WSO section than the IM section (well, at least if you believe the numbers, which frankly I'm a little skeptical about), it might make more financial sense to concentrate their efforts on monetizing all the MMO-activity here. For instance, if I were running the WF, I'd probably be working on a way to transition the WSO section into more of a store front, taking a cut of each sale rather than just collecting a flat fee.

    That said, the Stack Exchange has shown that forums -- when done right -- can be very profitable. And truthfully, part of me hopes that the Stack Exchange spins off an online business or IM forum; I think with their momentum and their model, they'd eat the WF's lunch and the quality of the postings that everyone is lamenting would be much, much improved. Interestingly, there's been a proposal within the Stack Exchange's Area 51 to create a Digital Marketing forum (Digital Marketing - Area 51 - Stack Exchange). I, for one, will be watching.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Kilgore,
    I really don't see how it do both well. There's too much of a conflict of interest between the two sides of the business.
    That's not as hard as it looks. You set rules designed to promote the good of the members and keep the moderation team completely separate from and unanswerable to the financial side of the forum.

    It's a question of one decision. Not even a complicated one. But it takes the will to go in that direction, which isn't a choice everyone will make.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    It took me all of 2 minutes to find another PLR dump by that same member in the War Room...hopefully it will be deleted.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/war-room...ml#post9659258

    https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sb...uard=8767-99a6

    This is a 2008 member that one could think should know better and/or is intentionally taking advantage of the War Room to grab some cheap "Thanks" or whatever.

    If this stuff is allowed then I have several thousand pieces of PLR, RR and MRR on my hard drives that I could post in there. Yeah, I never did open up that PLR site but I do still have a few of the domains.

    It's up to the mods and admins to smack this crap back...and it would not hurt to post some bold rules and/or thread closers to make people aware of what is acceptable and what is not.

    Heck...I can download an entire PLR site in a day or two on a "trial basis" so why in the world would anyone want to pay $99 bucks a year to wade through this sort of muck?

    Not me, but if this is the type of War Room material they are looking for, I have 4 tons of it for 'em.

    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Don, when I recently reported a WR offering, a mod asked me to write a review on the thread which I did. Later posters took my lead and said it was just one big advertisement - not worthy of the WR. The poster then took down the report and is revamping it.

    What's wrong with using an approach like mine instead of just waiting/hoping that the mods will act? Publicly but politely saying how it is. Might it turn into a fight? Sure. Might we be proven wrong and embarrass ourselves - the offer really was good but we just didn't see part of it or whatever. Sure. But what is the alternative?

    Mark

    Edit: I see you did post in the thread. Didn't check before I wrote my post. However, my point still remains the same. Maybe we should be more proactive and public while the mods are learning the ropes.
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Don, when I recently reported a WR offering, a mod asked me to write a review on the thread which I did. Later posters took my lead and said it was just one big advertisement - not worthy of the WR. The poster then took down the report and is revamping it.

      What's wrong with using an approach like mine instead of just waiting/hoping that the mods will act? Publicly but politely saying how it is. Might it turn into a fight? Sure. Might we be proven wrong and embarrass ourselves - the offer really was good but we just didn't see part of it or whatever. Sure. But what is the alternative?

      Mark
      Nothing is wrong with it --> and I always make it a point to post something on a War Room thread when I see a giveaway that is shady, shaky and/or inappropriate.

      As I inferred above, I could easily post a thousand threads full of stuff in the War Room --> but the War Room was not designed to become a 3rd and 4th party PLR dump. Sure it's not what it used to be anyway ( I hear), but in the past 3rd and 4th party PLR and RR stuff was not allowed. If this stuff is allowed then the floodgates could be opened and I figure many of us probably have hundreds of pieces of PLR/RR that is more valuable than what I pointed out above.

      The alternative is --> we members that take the time to report this stuff stop reporting it, and the quality of the forum gets worse. Eventually we reach our own individual tipping point where the forum becomes not valuable enough for us to invest our time, energy, and efforts in.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Update:

    Both War Room giveaways that I reported mentioned earlier in this thread have been removed --> good going Warrior Forum staff.

    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Loridori4
    I got to V7 forum for information and techie questions. On here it's a lot of filtering through BS and garbage. But it is a good place to find reviews of other BS that people are pitching me on facebook.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    About all of the spam threads in all of the "numerous" forums. Is "numerous" the keyword? Personally, I think "numerous" contributes to the problem because I consider the Forum to be too large in terms of Forums for a limited number of Mods. Also, consider that quite a few members go to great lengths in reporting numerous problems to the Mods. Actually an understatement.

    Is there a fix? I've seen a lot of good intentioned fixes over the years. Some worked and some did not. However, the forum always seems to fall back regardless of the fix.

    A drastic change might and I stress "might" be a temporary fix and if not a temporary fix I personally do not see what it would hurt, except maybe profits...

    Maintain a handful of active forums, say six, for six weeks. In other words, suspend all posting to all, but six of the forums for six weeks.

    What would that accomplish? The Spammers would be able to post their spam in the active forums.. where Mods and members could moderate. For six weeks it could be a campaign of sorts wherein Mods & Members could collaboratively focus on the problem.

    Would it hurt anything? Would the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or would the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

    We will never know unless we try?

    BTW: Six forums for six weeks is just an example.

    Jeffery 100% :-)

    Edit: P.S. Six weeks of "forum bliss" would make a nice holiday gift from FreeLancer
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Funny how things work out. While searching for sig. rules for war room members I found this thread.

    Aren't WR members allowed six lines in their sig.?

    I just received this message from someone claiming to be a mod.??


    #1 Their profile certainly doesn't inspire confidence and the fact they don't know the rules (as far as I've been aware) made me wonder.

    #2 If you are claiming to be a mod. telling me to do something, you should be recognizable as one.

    It's my Birthday today ( 29...again!) so I thought I could get away with airing my frustration over some things, but it seems Theo has beaten me to it.

    The decline and subsequent death of WF is just a matter of time IMO.

    When you alienate the core membership who made the place what it is, you are in trouble.

    Still, my biggest issue is the refusal to remove sigs. from paid forums. I see it as a slap in the face of the people who pay the bills. Such an easy fix too.

    Edit: I see Suzanne's sig. is six lines and a banner, so...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      I agree that that's concerning, Brent.

      Just a suggestion      , but in your position I would simply forward the p.m. concerned to Alaister, the Administrator, politely but clearly making the points you make above, and inviting his observations.

      It may be that a simple mistake was made here, perhaps by a new-ish and relatively inexperienced moderator, and that's perhaps understandable and not the end of the world, but a couple of the points you make above appear to address a much wider concern of legitimate interest to the ever-reducing number of us who are still here, and "(very) patiently awaiting developments with interest".

      I also wouldn't be astonished if your post above is removed (and I'll come back and remove mine, if that happens), because it could perhaps fairly be argued, after all, that private messages are meant to be private, rather than posted on the board???

      Just my perspective.

      (I thought you were about my age, and not such an "old guy"! Many happy "action replays of the day's play" - private messages perhaps excepted! .)

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    SIGNATURE FILE RULES

    (1) Maximum length of sig file is 5 lines which includes any blank lines used for spaces.

    If you have a graphic signature, you get 6 lines plus the graphic, I believe. I may be wrong on the six, but I do know that the above is in the signature rules posted here.

    That person is a mod. Don't be disrespectful to the new mods. They haven't done anything to deserve it. Some do not participate in the discussions and at least one does. That's their option to do so or not, and you shouldn't be posting private pms and outing mods.

    Oh, and happy birthday!
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Don't be disrespectful to the new mods.
    I'm not aware that I have been.

    I have a graphic sig. I just don't have it in my sig. at the moment.

    So I have to use a graphic to have six lines even though I have paid for it?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      I'm not aware that I have been.

      I have a graphic sig. I just don't have it in my sig. at the moment.

      So I have to use a graphic to have six lines even though I have paid for it?
      Do you think the new mods would know that if you don't have the graphic in your sig? It might be an honest mistake or an oversight, or I might be wrong about the six, although I don't think so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      So I have to use a graphic to have six lines even though I have paid for it?
      No, that's not the case, unless it's been changed suddenly without being announced. I may be wrong but I strongly suspect that a little mistake was made, here.

      .
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Brent,

      That person is a moderator. Personally, I like the sig comment, but that's one of those preference things, I guess. And the mods here have not usually marked their profiles to show that function in the past, so it's not surprising the new folks haven't..

      Sigs are turned off in the WSO section, so it's possible to do in other sections. I had thought they'd already done it, actually. Apparently not. I agree it's a good idea.

      It is very likely that the sig was reported by a senior member and ES just assumed they knew the rules. I believe they're as Suzanne suggested. 6 plus the graphic for sig image subscribers.

      That said, if the image isn't there, it's unlikely anyone would know that rule applied, assuming Suzanne and I are correct.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    (I thought you were about my age, and not such an "old guy"! Many happy "action replays of the day's play" - private messages perhaps excepted!
    Thanks! I am old, no doubt.

    Also, I'm about at the point where I just don't care anymore. I used to really enjoy visiting but lately it is just kind of depressing and sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Do you think the new mods would know that if you don't have the graphic in your sig?
    I don't know for sure but I think it would be a very easy thing to check subscriptions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    and you shouldn't be posting private pms and outing mods.
    Removed it.

    Thanks!
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      Removed it.

      Thanks!
      I do hope you have a nice rest of your birthday, Brent. I'm sure this will get sorted out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    That said, if the image isn't there, it's unlikely anyone would know that rule applied, assuming Suzanne and I are correct.
    I understand. The point I was trying to make is anybody could send a message claiming to be a mod. At first I thought someone was just trying to mess with me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Digressing slightly, I think it would perhaps be helpful all round, given that we now have the luxury of professional, salaried moderators, if their profiles openly said "Warrior Forum Moderator" or something similar, as their "byline", below their usernames and above their avatars? Rather than being "discretionary", as I'm guessing it is at the moment?

      (I once got an "infraction" from someone (only a troll, I think) for having a yellow "sig-pic"/"banner", which was alleged to be contrary to the rules about using only black and blue in signatures! One of the moderators kindly removed it for me. The infraction, not the banner, you understand ...).

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Digressing slightly, I think it would perhaps be helpful all round, given that we now have the luxury of professional, salaried moderators, if their profiles openly said "Warrior Forum Moderator" or something similar, as their "byline", below their usernames and above their avatars? Rather than being "discretionary", as I'm guessing it is at the moment?

        .
        Alexa ... Paul in particular, but you also know how members and mods here can get targeted by certain groups. I can understand a mod not wanting to be identified that way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Alexa ... Paul in particular, but you also know how members and mods here can get targeted by certain groups. I can understand a mod not wanting to be identified that way.
          Thanks - I see ... I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. Yes, perhaps so. (Then again, could it be argued that goes with the terrain of being a salaried moderator? I could see that argument perhaps being more appropriate to "volunteer moderators" of the type we used to have, who were also fully "participating members"? Interesting. I don't know. ).


          .
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Brent,

      Yeah. That would be pretty easy at this point. Stupid, if they wanted to keep the account, but easy nonetheless.

      Last I knew, not all mods had access to check subscriptions and permissions. That may have changed since, but I wouldn't bet on it. The policy seems to be that they get the access they need to do the job and no more. Hard to argue with that, given a large enough mod squad.

      Of course, a lot could have changed in the past few weeks, so that's just a guess.


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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    I do hope you have a nice rest of your birthday, Brent. I'm sure this will get sorted out.
    Thanks! It's been an odd one so far!

    FYI I am really 52 today...still feel like a teenager!
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Hard to argue with that, given a large enough mod squad.
    Right. It's a one-sided view I have.

    I have a fat steak and cake waiting!!

    You all have a good day or night!
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Fulger
    Fact is, this forum has been going down hill for years. I used to be quite active on the WF back in the day. But now I rarely even bother to visit and when I do visit, I usually head to the War Room to see what kind of crap is being slung in there. Don't get me wrong, it's not all crap, but I've seen stuff in there claiming to be new stuff that has been around for YEARS, on free member sites no less.

    Stupid questions on the WF is normal and has always been on the WF. But they aren't always stupid just because YOU think they are. Most people have NO clue about marketing and/or the internet and they have to find out somehow. How better to find out than to ASK questions, even if they seem stupid. And since the search feature on this forum doesn't always work, asking questions may seem like the best way to get those answers.

    What bothers me more than "stupid" questions are stupid answers, which there's no shortage of either.

    I've also seen people get banned for stupid reasons, hell I've even been banned before (long ago) and to this day I have NO IDEA why and was only able to get the ban lifted by emailing Allen Says and asking him to look into it. Which he did and of course he lifted the ban. But I've seen people who offer genuinely good advice on SEO get banned simply for giving away free guides on SEO and keyword research, etc. The only thing I can figure is that there is/was a competitor that also happened to be a moderator.

    Anyway, I don't really see this forum getting any better. I mean it hasn't gotten any better in years, it's only gone down hill and now that it's under the control of freelancer, who only seems interested in numbers, I don't see it all of the sudden getting better.I know that since it's been taken over by this Alaister guy, I all the sudden get tons of email from this forum, whereas I very rarely got email from this forum while Allen was in charge.

    Anyway, I'm not even sure why I bothered to post tonight as I'm sure it's mostly just a waste of time and energy.

    What surprises me most is that there are still some really good people on here (old timers even, Like Paul Myers and Mark Singletary) that still try their best to help out the newbies and even other old timers. Alexa Smith is another great example of someone that helps people despite all the BS being slung around here. She seems to try her best to help people out. I mean you don't see too many posters who have been thanked 23,000+ times. That shows some serious commitment. I don't know how she does it. I know I certainly don't have the patience for that kind of dedication to a forum like this.

    Anyway, I'm rambling now and need to go get some food in me to replenish the energy I just used up posting this. LOL.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      The decline and subsequent death of WF is just a matter of time IMO.

      When you alienate the core membership who made the place what it is, you are in trouble.
      Probably. The extent to which I agree with that perspective might depend on my mood (mostly health-related rather than forum-related ), to some extent, to be honest, so I normally try not to be too sensitive or outspoken about this subject.

      But today I agree with you.

      And with this post from Brian McLeod, yesterday (his context was limited to the Copywriting Forum but what he said has broader reality, too, and his first point is perhaps "the bottom line", here).

      Originally Posted by Matt Fulger View Post

      Alexa Smith is another great example of someone that helps people despite all the BS being slung around here. She seems to try her best to help people out.
      Very nice of you - thank you.

      I suspect that - as several people have been saying over recent months - the forum's new owners must know that they have a real problem here?

      They can obviously see the huge drop in traffic?

      They clearly know that most of the longer-established members have now gone? (The spammers, scammers and trolls are still here, but the "real" members not so much, and that situation has now become self-perpetuating in spite of the determination of some of us to try to prevent it, even at the potential cost of sometimes irritating and annoying people and "worsening their indigestion"! )

      After what they spent buying the place, it's hard to imagine the owners don't care?

      But perhaps they genuinely don't understand why, or what to do about it.

      From my perspective, the problem appears, increasingly, to be with their reluctance to listen and to respond when anyone tries to explain anything to them (yes; I know that perhaps sounds a little bit patronising, and I'm sorry about that, but the reality is that what so many of us have now been saying for so long has been proven pretty unambiguously correct).

      I posted what I (and many others) think was rather an obvious and helpful "suggestion" in the Suggestion Forums a few days ago, and at the same time sent Alaister a very polite, tactful private message asking if I could respectfully draw it to his attention, and what outcome did that produce? Yup ... nothing at all. No acknowledgement; no reply. Not in the thread and not to the p.m., either. And it related to a problem which it might take only 30 seconds to fix, too, pursuing one of my suggested solutions to it. Or at least to try to fix.

      I still don't really believe that they "just don't care", but they give a really good impression of it, don't they?

      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      When you alienate the core membership who made the place what it is, you are in trouble.
      This is right, I'm afraid.

      And when you further compound the problem by completely ignoring the few remaining people who are still trying to help you, and communicate with you, and interact with you, you're just making it worse rather than better.

      If I ran my little hobby-niche forum like Freelancer runs this one, by ignoring the core membership who made the place what it is, it probably wouldn't still exist at all.

      I tried, here. I really, really tried.

      For today, anyway, I give in.


      .
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      • Profile picture of the author salegurus
        Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post


        It's my Birthday today ( 29...again!) so I thought I could get away with airing my frustration over some things, but it seems Theo has beaten me to it..
        Bit late but Happy B-Day Brent...

        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I tried, here. I really, really tried.

        For today, anyway, I give in. .
        Happens to the best of us...
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Matt,

          "Downhill for years" really depends on what you mean and what you're comparing it to. No open public forum of any size that talks about IM in general will ever be what this place was in the early days. The demographic of the net as a whole is just too different now. Back then, we all had shared experiences and had to figure things out on our own.

          I remember helping people figure out things like uploading files using the command line. When you have to help each other with the basics, you have more respect for the advanced stuff.

          The basics are so easy now that many people freak out when they have to learn anything at all. "Create a MySQL database? No way I'll ever learn that!" Different crowd, with different expectations. The rest is handed to them, so they expect knowledge and results to be just as easy.

          Those are the same people who gripe about everything. because They're too mentally lazy to think before buying, so they get sucked in by the BS, or they won't follow instructions and assume the good info is BS. You cannot avoid problems with them, because they only see problems.

          There are always the folks who just do what it takes to figure things out, but they don't have the patience to deal with the ones I described above.

          There isn't a thing any group of moderators can do about that aspect of it. Nothing. The only way to stop that is to change to a private forum, with a registration process that involved refusing significant percentages of applicants.

          Factors like that are why I consider anyone who's been a member less than 10 years to still be a newbie here.


          Paul

          PS: For those of you who may wonder, Matt was here well before 2002. He's member number 350, which means he joined within a day or two of Allen announcing the move to the second forum platform, back in July of that year. He's one of the Originals.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I still don't really believe that they "just don't care", but they give a really good impression of it, don't they?
        We don't know how much money they're making. Maybe they saw an increase in revenue after increasing the War Room membership price and are blinded by it, even if it won't last long given the evident decline in traffic.

        Also, I've seen one of Alaister's screenshots some time ago, and he had a lot of new private messages, so maybe he just didn't have time. Or maybe he's just an employee and doesn't give a rats ass about anything. Again, who knows?

        At least they (partially) fixed the post search feature, which means they do care (to some extent).
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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Lucian Lada View Post

          Also, I've seen one of Alaister's screenshots some time ago, and he had a lot of new private messages, so maybe he just didn't have time. Or maybe he's just an employee and doesn't give a rats about everything. Again, who knows?
          Alaister is quite a bit more than "just an employee"...

          Senior Director of Warrior Forum & Warrior Payments

          Alaister Low is the Senior Director of Warrior Forum and Warrior Payments. He is a marketing professional with experience in online relationship marketing, customer service and sales. He is responsible for managing the operations and overall strategy of Warrior Forum and Warrior Payments.

          https://www.freelancer.com/about/management

          Cheers

          -don
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Just as an FYI, Matt Barrie (the CEO from Freelancer) is in London this week and has asked to meet some UK-based members tomorrow afternoon (Friday) to discuss how Freelancer can improve the WF.

            I'll be attending and bringing a list of suggestions, many of which have been voiced here and in other threads. But if anyone wants me to mention a specific point or two, please feel free to let me know by PM.


            Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Just as an FYI, Matt Barrie (the CEO from Freelancer) is in London this week and has asked to meet some UK-based members tomorrow afternoon (Friday) to discuss how Freelancer can improve the WF.

              I'll be attending and bringing a list of suggestions, many of which have been voiced here and in other threads. But if anyone wants me to mention a specific point or two, please feel free to let me know by PM.


              Frank
              I can't believe that the Freelancer management are completely unaware of this thread, but just in case I will print out the whole thing and take it to the meeting with Matt Barrie tomorrow.

              As Frank said, any comments, suggestions, thoughts or ideas to help revive the place would be great. after all, the fact that we are all here moaning suggests that we do still care!

              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Martin Avis View Post

                I can't believe that the Freelancer management are completely unaware of this thread, but just in case I will print out the whole thing and take it to the meeting with Matt Barrie tomorrow.
                You've just avoided a message from me, Martin, asking whether that might be possible! Not to mention this one (only short but contains some "general discussion"!).

                And many thanks in advance - hoping it goes well.

                Originally Posted by Martin Avis View Post

                the fact that we are all here moaning suggests that we do still care!
                Yes indeed.

                A few of us.

                It's just a huge pity about the other much larger percentage of us who have already been driven away by the apparent inexorability of recent developments, here.

                Lexy


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    • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
      Originally Posted by Matt Fulger View Post

      Stupid questions on the WF is normal and has always been on the WF. But they aren't always stupid just because YOU think they are. Most people have NO clue about marketing and/or the internet and they have to find out somehow. How better to find out than to ASK questions, even if they seem stupid. And since the search feature on this forum doesn't always work, asking questions may seem like the best way to get those answers.
      I'd agree that stupid questions are nothing new on here and I'd also agree that everyone has to start somewhere. I don't mind answering a question that has been asked before or pointing the way to the answer if I can remember where it is. Some questions really are dim, though.

      Someone on the main forum was asking earlier where he could get valuable information in PLR/MRR form to help create his forthcoming WSO. I politely told him why he didn't stand to make much money this way, but what I really felt like saying was 'You're asking this of the people you hope are about to become your customers? This is your shop window too you know - it's not essential to constantly stand in it positioning yourself as an expert, but a fat lot of good standing in it posing as a brain donor is going to do for you.'

      Please come back, old-timers - this place needs you

      The self-appointed sermon-givers are nothing new either. They were one of the first things I noticed about the forum when I found it.
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  • Profile picture of the author unidentified
    I just go here or the offline marketing forum, so I've been spared of that. It sounds like medieval torture for modern times.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    After what they spent buying the place, it's hard to imagine the owners don't care?

    But perhaps they genuinely don't understand why, or what to do about it.
    This forum was created as a place for entrepreneurs. For a lot of years it was people who were educated in fields who were building their own livelihoods.

    One thing that happened as a repercussion of product builders being here was an influx of affiliates - by affiliates, I mean people who were attempting to replace building their own business with working for people online - to a point that is a good mix, but eventually, the affiliate minded starting to aspire to building businesses they had no skills to build. Products offered here started to lose the quality of the originals. A lot of them turned into almost worthless rehash.

    Years go by and the "affiliate" qualified started to over-run the actually business ownership qualified.

    Take that up a notch to now - we have a corporation who serves an affiliate base trying to figure out how to best serve entrepreneurs. The two rarely mix well. What's worse, is that the base of the "tourists" being pulled in are not the clients of the corporation - they are the worker bees. The 5 dollar writers and techs who really don't have much ability to give much input because their only experience is low wage contracting of remedial skills and working for someone else. If the clients are actually being lured to the forum, they are those that pay low wages for people with remedial skills.

    So...........where does that leave the original genius that was rampant in the forums?
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Diana,
    posing as a brain donor
    Thankee, ma'am. I shall be adding that to my swiped file.


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    original genius
    So that's what OG stands for!
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Martin,

    The biggest thing they can do as far as the mods is to have each of them pick one section of the forum and read it regularly. That's the only way they'll ever start to learn the patterns and get a real feel for the forum as a dynamic system.

    At the moment, they don't understand the place in the way someone does who's here as a member, rather than an employee. Because of that, they're missing the perspective of someone with an investment in the discussions.

    They have no idea how the parts all fit together. Without that, modding is just mechanics, and that doesn't work.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    A few of my thoughts, for what they are worth, if any of the UK members wants to share:

    1. The marketplace (the $$) needs a revamp. 2-3 weeks ago Alaister promised an update to the rules where they were training internal staff and would post it in a day or two. There is a way, I believe, to have it wildly profitable for FL AND to provide good value AND to be moral/legal/ethical. WIN-WIN-WIN. Right now NO ONE is winning. Sales are down. Traffic is down. $20 signup fees are down. Look at how many WSOs are selling in WP's own payment stats.

    2. People, someone, needs to become the new Paul and come here at night and on the weekends - not just when "clocked in." They need to build a relationship that is rock solid here. They need to be the face. They need to respond - even if it's I don't know or management said your idea is crazy or whatever. But there has to be some trust built and right now there is 0% for most of us. There needs to be someone that lives it and breathes it and protects it - just like Paul (and others that were very visible) did.

    3. Reducing barriers to entry is NOT the way to a successful marketplace. We see people all the time that are literally borrowing $20 so they can put up their WSO to tell us how to get rich. Or they have no idea about how to get traffic so they wonder if putting up a free WSO would work or not.

    4. We have complained about the icons many, many times - mostly the ones that indicate participation in a thread. Management promises to look into it but has never either fixed it or explained that they weren't going to fix it. Forever looking into things without a follow-up and without actually doing anything is one of the reasons for a lack of trust. Someone that understood and loved the place could see that it's a huge problem and even if it wasn't a big deal to them personally they would make it a big deal because so many people have complained so many times.

    5. If FL can vet the WSO of the week that they send in an email they can vet them all. If they aren't vetting (and by the complaints I've seen they aren't) they are wrong and typical of a money grubbing, churn and burn "guru". We get enough of that. We want something we can trust.

    6. One idea that may be considered is creating a "member board" made up of various Warriors. This board could meet regularly through Skype or other group calling ways with FL management to discuss the state of things, give feedback, etc. FL retains full control with their in-house moderation but would get the advantage of having this focus group - people that care more than a sig - help drive growth and progress.

    Board members wouldn't need special titles or ranks per se - they just want to help. They don't need to be paid - but it would be nice. They would contribute out of a desire to make the place better and not let it die which would hurt some of us deeply. Then FL could take the best of the advice and implement it and put the rest on the back burner or scrap it. HOWEVER, to keep trust with the board, next month or quarter FL needs to be open and honest and say "we scrapped that idea put forth last time" or "this is in development AND will be ready 1st quarter 2015". Trust and relationship are key.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author mattbarrie
      Great feedback. I just found this thread. I'm not in the Warrior team so forgive me if this has been spelled out before but can you give me an exact rundown of this bug- I will route to the team to fix immediately.

      4. We have complained about the icons many, many times - mostly the ones that indicate participation in a thread. Management promises to look into it but has never either fixed it or explained that they weren't going to fix it. Forever looking into things without a follow-up and without actually doing anything is one of the reasons for a lack of trust. Someone that understood and loved the place could see that it's a huge problem and even if it wasn't a big deal to them personally they would make it a big deal because so many people have complained so many times.



      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      A few of my thoughts, for what they are worth, if any of the UK members wants to share:

      1. The marketplace (the $$) needs a revamp. 2-3 weeks ago Alaister promised an update to the rules where they were training internal staff and would post it in a day or two. There is a way, I believe, to have it wildly profitable for FL AND to provide good value AND to be moral/legal/ethical. WIN-WIN-WIN. Right now NO ONE is winning. Sales are down. Traffic is down. $20 signup fees are down. Look at how many WSOs are selling in WP's own payment stats.

      2. People, someone, needs to become the new Paul and come here at night and on the weekends - not just when "clocked in." They need to build a relationship that is rock solid here. They need to be the face. They need to respond - even if it's I don't know or management said your idea is crazy or whatever. But there has to be some trust built and right now there is 0% for most of us. There needs to be someone that lives it and breathes it and protects it - just like Paul (and others that were very visible) did.

      3. Reducing barriers to entry is NOT the way to a successful marketplace. We see people all the time that are literally borrowing $20 so they can put up their WSO to tell us how to get rich. Or they have no idea about how to get traffic so they wonder if putting up a free WSO would work or not.

      4. We have complained about the icons many, many times - mostly the ones that indicate participation in a thread. Management promises to look into it but has never either fixed it or explained that they weren't going to fix it. Forever looking into things without a follow-up and without actually doing anything is one of the reasons for a lack of trust. Someone that understood and loved the place could see that it's a huge problem and even if it wasn't a big deal to them personally they would make it a big deal because so many people have complained so many times.

      5. If FL can vet the WSO of the week that they send in an email they can vet them all. If they aren't vetting (and by the complaints I've seen they aren't) they are wrong and typical of a money grubbing, churn and burn "guru". We get enough of that. We want something we can trust.

      6. One idea that may be considered is creating a "member board" made up of various Warriors. This board could meet regularly through Skype or other group calling ways with FL management to discuss the state of things, give feedback, etc. FL retains full control with their in-house moderation but would get the advantage of having this focus group - people that care more than a sig - help drive growth and progress.

      Board members wouldn't need special titles or ranks per se - they just want to help. They don't need to be paid - but it would be nice. They would contribute out of a desire to make the place better and not let it die which would hurt some of us deeply. Then FL could take the best of the advice and implement it and put the rest on the back burner or scrap it. HOWEVER, to keep trust with the board, next month or quarter FL needs to be open and honest and say "we scrapped that idea put forth last time" or "this is in development AND will be ready 1st quarter 2015". Trust and relationship are key.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by mattbarrie View Post

        Great feedback. I just found this thread. I'm not in the Warrior team so forgive me if this has been spelled out before but can you give me an exact rundown of this bug- I will route to the team to fix immediately.
        Hello,

        Many of the suggestions and complaints folks have made (and have been making for months) are quite valid so I won't make a big repeat of those, but I will echo a couple and add a few of my own.

        #1 Paul and others have mentioned you need the mods to concentrate/focus on certain forums so they can learn the ins and outs and the posting patterns in the particular sub-forums. So many posters are hitting the forums with self-serving posts, sig exposure posts, link dropping posts etc. the mods need to be able to learn how to identify what is spam and what is not. Allowing the mods to "specialize" in a certain forum will be a big help and eventually the mods will learn that particular forum(s). Once the mods have a good understanding of a particular forum they will be able to do a better job acting on our reports.

        #2 You need one or two members of your team to focus on copyright violations when they are reported. Many a member here has been caught selling or giving pirated material away in the WSO section, Classified section and in the War Room. In-fact you guys actually promoted a Warrior Deal that contained a pirated theme and it sold hundreds of copies.

        When violations are reported sometimes they are not dealt with at all, or it takes a week or two for you guys to take action. By that time it's too late and tens, hundreds, or thousands of unsuspecting buyers have purchased pirated material that they do not have a legitimate license to use. The copyright violations and pirates should be dealt with swiftly and firmly.

        #3 The Search function has been broken for 6 months ---> please fix it. The "find all posts by user" only goes a short ways back for most users here. For instance when I search my own posts September 18, 2014 is as far back as it goes. I use this function a lot and it sure would be nice to have it working properly again.

        #4 The War Room is not such a great place these days...at $99 a year I just don't see a big increase in value for the massive price increase. You need to post clear rules so people will stop dumping old third party PLR and Resell Rights stuff in there. I can join a PLR site and download hundreds of GB worth of stuff for just a few bucks in a week. I don't need to pay $99 a year for it and I am quite certain the War Room was not intended to be a PLR and Resell Rights dumping ground.

        #5 The WSO section is a mess and Alaister has admitted as much. Lowering the cost to list a WSO has diluted that section's quality so much that I will probably do my next launch off-forum. Just too much junk and free WSOs taking up too many eyeballs. Anyone with 20 bucks can post a get rich in 1 week scheme so why would I want to compete with that? Sure I offer a great product with ton of real value but the advantages of launching off-forum are quite significant at this point.

        Below is a reply from Alaister to some of my concerns earlier --> note he says he will be working on upping the quality and he admits the lower price has affected the quality. The War Room requirement to post a WSO should not have been removed, and the price of run a WSO should not have lowered to just $20. The rules rewrite he speaks of has still not happened.

        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        Thanks for your feedback Don.

        Yes, we'll be completely rewriting the WSO rules and cleaning the actual section up. We're working on increasing curation and the approval process of the listings so the lower cost and requirements to post a WSO won't impact quality like it has.

        As part of the rewrite of the rules we'll be stopping free offers in the WSO section. These will be moved to the classifieds section or a new free offer section in itself.
        Here is a link to the post that he replied too...

        http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...ml#post9493963

        ...and my earlier post to that thread is probably worth a read:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...ml#post9489775

        #5A Warrior Special Offers need to be "special offers' and not regular deals that you can find elsewhere, or a link to the vendor's website where the item can be purchased for the same price that it is being sold at on Warrior Forum. In the past these deals would be moved to the Classified section when reported but that's not happening anymore --> you are allowing regular deals to be posted in the Special Offers section.

        The rules:



        When users report these deals for the most part they are being ignored. And the scammer part I quoted--> someone selling and/or advertising pirated or unlicensed material is a scammer. Sure a few folks may 'accidentally" be selling unlicensed material, but if they are too ignorant to know what a license allows then they should not be selling the material in the first place.

        #5B All of this has lead to a serious dilution of the WSO section:

        --> the abundance of free WSOs (Alaister has said these will be going to another section)
        --> the not so special offers that are listed in the WSO section (Alaister says the offer has to be special but nobody is moving these offers to Classifieds)
        --> the low price to submit a WSO means it's a Fiverr like free-for-all...except here you can promise 5 million bucks in a week and deliver almost nothing
        --> the no War Room requirement means fly-by-night wanabe vendors have even less skin in the game...if you have $20 bucks you can promise the world here on WF

        Alaister has repeatedly told us the rules were being rewritten and things will be cleaned up but it's just not happening. For example the mods seem to have little authority (or too much authority) because they are usually not acting on the "not a special offer reports". If I link the exact same offer that is available elsewhere when I report a "not so special offer" it's quite easy to determine the offer is not special --> so move it to classifieds.

        Heck, you guys are approving WSOs that are nothing more than a link to the home page of a vendors website. That is NOT a special offer.

        Anyway, this may sound like a rant but it's not. I have purchased well over a hundred WSOs in the past and 95+% of those were graphics, plugins or software. I found a lot of the purchases to be good ones but now the section is so diluted I won't even wade in there to look around.

        So I am a bit disheartened for a few reasons...it's not as fun of a place to shop for real special offers, it's not as valuable of a place for me to list offers, as a member I am having a much harder time finding what I am looking for due to the broken search function, copyright violations are dealt with much less swiftly than they were in the past, and some other types of reports (like the not so special offers in the WSO section) are largely being ignored.

        Thanks for any attention you can give to these matters.

        Cheers

        -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    7. Do something about the War Room. Upping the price without adding value is a little backwards. To be honest, many of the free WSOs that are in there are there because they failed as WSOs. There are none (that I remember) of the wildly successful WSOs that are listed there. There are a few extremely high quality things but most of it is from years past.

    It's a last shot at getting a little exposure for a failed WSO. If anyone actually looked at the downloads they would see why many failed. In many cases I would have felt a little cheated if I had paid money for the WSO.

    Many of the gifts are old and not updated leading to dead links. Rules need to be put in place as to how to handle limited time offers. If a poster deletes the WR gift then the thread needs to be locked with an indication that it is no longer available.

    Your WR bonus special promos aren't special at all. For example, I get 3 months free trial with my CC instead of 2 months that I can get on my own. That's good and all - thanks. But not worth $97 a year. It's still just a trial. And it requires further payment and/or submitting email to get the offer where those are disallowed in other parts of the WR.

    8. Understand that the complaining isn't because we hold a grudge, we hate FL, we have disrespect, etc. It's because we want the place to be better.

    It's kind of like a spouse. A spouse that never complains, never disagrees, never has ideas of his/her own, and never rocks the boat is probably ill, having an affair, about to leave, etc. because the lack of concern is a huge red flag. Normal people that care have ideas/suggestions they offer as well as complaints when necessary.

    Don't run away from the input - embrace it. Because being ignored is a very fast way to ruin a marriage or any relationship and many of us feel pretty much ignored up to now.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author mattbarrie
      Mark, thanks for the feedback. We've been adding value- for example the videos from the live WAMAs. We will look at the postings in the WR and see what can be done.

      Regards
      Matt



      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      7. Do something about the War Room. Upping the price without adding value is a little backwards. To be honest, many of the free WSOs that are in there are there because they failed as WSOs. There are none (that I remember) of the wildly successful WSOs that are listed there. There are a few extremely high quality things but most of it is from years past.

      It's a last shot at getting a little exposure for a failed WSO. If anyone actually looked at the downloads they would see why many failed. In many cases I would have felt a little cheated if I had paid money for the WSO.

      Many of the gifts are old and not updated leading to dead links. Rules need to be put in place as to how to handle limited time offers. If a poster deletes the WR gift then the thread needs to be locked with an indication that it is no longer available.

      Your WR bonus special promos aren't special at all. For example, I get 3 months free trial with my CC instead of 2 months that I can get on my own. That's good and all - thanks. But not worth $97 a year. It's still just a trial. And it requires further payment and/or submitting email to get the offer where those are disallowed in other parts of the WR.

      8. Understand that the complaining isn't because we hold a grudge, we hate FL, we have disrespect, etc. It's because we want the place to be better.

      It's kind of like a spouse. A spouse that never complains, never disagrees, never has ideas of his/her own, and never rocks the boat is probably ill, having an affair, about to leave, etc. because the lack of concern is a huge red flag. Normal people that care have ideas/suggestions they offer as well as complaints when necessary.

      Don't run away from the input - embrace it. Because being ignored is a very fast way to ruin a marriage or any relationship and many of us feel pretty much ignored up to now.

      Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Matt,

    The icon problem is that with the redesign, it's very difficult or impossible to tell that you have participated in a thread once it gets "hot". Many people have described it, added screenshots, etc. trying to get it fixed.

    For example, open up the Off Topic forum. You have posted here several times in this thread. Where is the quick indicator in the icon to tell you that? There isn't one.

    Before we could quickly scan a page and the threads that we've participated in were extremely clear because of an icon and so it was much easier to go back and check on new replies etc.

    Here are some explanations/complaints/suggestions:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...t-replies.html

    http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ly-posted.html

    http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...something.html

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...cons-mean.html

    Thanks for looking into this.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Matt,
    Can you point me to the spammers here and I will get the team to address it. Our moderator team is growing day by day and hunting this stuff down, so please report anything bad you see and we'll address it.
    The problem is, the stuff is already getting reported, but the new mods don't understand how to deal with it efficiently. And that is really not their fault.

    Suzanne, Alexa, and several others have repeatedly mentioned the problem of reporting people who post constant junk, one-liners, and sigvertising. That used to result in the person's posts being removed, and them getting either a warning, signature removal, or a ban. Only took one report, and we'd use the search function to see if the report was accurate, and how much of a response was needed.

    The search function was broken for so long the new mods didn't have that to use while learning. And now they have habits.

    Don (ForumGuru) is probably your best friend when it comes to reporting copyright and other issues in WSOs. If he's reporting these things and they're not getting acted on, that's also not the new mods' fault. Just because they're new. That stuff can get complicated.

    You don't need more mods. Adding more people who don't understand the beast they're tending will just lead to a bunch of folks bumping into each other. What you need is a system for the mods you have.

    And you absolutely need at least one person to learn how to handle reports about the sales sections. That's a whole other kind of animal, and takes a lot more focus than just nuking spammers and deleting nasty posts.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    9. Matt, you run a respectable set of Internet based companies. Spammers, scammers, and other kinds of low lifes bite into your profits, reduce your traffic, run off your customers and legitimate vendors, and hurt your business.

    For example, you are hiring mods left and right to control the deluge of spam. That represents money out of yours and other investor's pockets. Spam is driving many away - this very thread is a cry out because of out of control spam and conversation quality being at an all time low.

    Yet by their action (or inaction) management condones running down and hurting other respectable companies, hurting their profits, and making it harder on them and their customers.

    How?

    By allowing the discussion of buying fake likes, fake followers, phone verified accounts, proxies (very few legitimate uses), scrapers (including email and FB group members), etc. There used to be a rule that discussion or products that hurt other companies or were against their TOS was not allowed. Now these things are allowed, condoned, and thriving.

    Do you think the fake likes and followers and such are helping Craigslist, FB, YT, Twitter to have a thriving, wonderful experience for their users and management? Or making it to no one can tell whether something is legit or a lie bringing down the quality of the Internet as a whole?

    We don't like it when we get hit with spam bots, fake accounts, etc. yet we let it happen to others. And then when it happens to us we wonder where the quality went.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    The sales forums need to be cleaned up or this place is going to be black listed everywhere. Its reputation has already suffered a great deal. You dismissed the one person on the planet who is the most qualified to deal with all the dirty tricks and shysters.

    The quickest way to get things back on track would be to bring Paul Myers back, if he'd take the job again. You want only paid staffers? Then pay him. Hell, he deserves it more than anyone.

    He knows the bad actors and he knows the games they play. He knows the culture here better than anyone. It will take the new mods years to learn all that, if they even have that much time. If you ask me, you would have been wise to ask him to stay on before you bought the forum.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      The quickest way to get things back on track would be to bring Paul Myers back, if he'd take the job again. .
      Dennis, what did Paul do to you to make you hate him?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dennis, but I wouldn't do that part again even if they were inclined to ask. And I rather doubt they want to hear anything more from me on the subject anyway. Some of my criticisms in private were... less than gentle.

      Alaister and I communicate in entirely different ways, and there's no room in the Freelancer structure for someone who works the way I do. I am a team player, but not a corporate player. And this is very much a corporate game these days.

      I'm not saying one way or the other is better or worse. They're just very different.

      They have at least two mods on staff who could learn the sales sections in relatively short order, if they focused just on that end of things. Those two would have the necessary patience, which is uncommon, but I'm not sure they could be the kind of ruthless you have to be when the evidence warrants.

      Kinder and gentler is nice, right up until you fail to make the hard decision and it comes back to bite you. Or the people you're supposed to be watching out for.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dennis, but I wouldn't do that part again even if they were inclined to ask.
        Maybe they could pay you to train the mods? Teach them some of the "tricks of the trade" in terms of what to look for, etc... Might greatly speed up their learning curve to learn from your years of experience. (That is, if they could afford your price for that service!)
        Signature
        If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Cali,

          I really, seriously don't think they want to hear much more from me. Besides, a lot of what I know as far as specifics is no longer useful, as there no longer seem to be rules for much of what we used to handle.

          They have really good people in place as mods. They just need to focus on systems, rather than numbers, and learn to trust the people they've hired.

          One of the many reasons I like the folks they've got in there as mods is that they want to work as a team. They understand the concept, and they take it to heart. My concern is whether a corporate structure will support that or kill it.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
            Ten 'concerned citizens' of the WF met with Matt Barrie in London yesterday for a very enjoyable and constructive 3-hour meeting.

            It was very clear from the outset that buying the Warrior Forum was not some kind of whim on Matt's part. He had been negotiating for a considerable time with Allen and sees the WF as an important part of the Freelancer stable. As such, he certainly came across to the group yesterday as being highly motivated and committed to turning round its fortunes.

            What has to be admitted is the forum has been in decline for a long time before Freelancer got involved and that while problems have certainly accelerated lately, they are not all of Freelancer's making.

            Matt listened very attentively to what we all had to say - and no holds were barred. He took lots of notes and was keenly interested in hearing our various ideas on what is wrong and how to fix it.

            Naturally I don't which, if any, of our suggestions will be acted upon and in what timeframe, but it was certainly good to know that 'The Management' is listening.

            I came away feeling a lot better about the future of the Warrior Forum. I know that change will be difficult for dinosaurs like me, but if we can embrace it, the auspices are good.

            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by Martin Avis View Post

              Ten 'concerned citizens' of the WF met with Matt Barrie in London yesterday for a very enjoyable and constructive 3-hour meeting.

              It was very clear from the outset that buying the Warrior Forum was not some kind of whim on Matt's part. He had been negotiating for a considerable time with Allen and sees the WF as an important part of the Freelancer stable. As such, he certainly came across to the group yesterday as being highly motivated and committed to turning round its fortunes.
              As one of those 'concerned citizens', I share Martin's impression that Matt came across as being highly motivated and committed to improving the fortunes of the forum. I'd like to thank Matt for taking the time to seek out views from the membership, and also thank Martin for organizing the meeting.

              There were many issues discussed, and as Martin said, we'll have to wait and see how much of an effect our get-together will have on any specific matter.

              This probably isn't the place to go into more detail, but I came away from the meeting very much aware of the (perhaps inevitable) cultural difference between the current owners and the previous one in terms of the forum's development and direction.


              Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Very many thanks to Martin, Frank and the other Warriors present at that meeting, for doing this, yesterday!


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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Martin Avis View Post


              What has to be admitted is the forum has been in decline for a long time before Freelancer got involved and that while problems have certainly accelerated lately, they are not all of Freelancer's making.
              Most of this thread is ridiculous due to not seeing that the seeds were sown a long time ago for what we are seeing now. How long was it going to be before a WSO mentality took over the general forums? The only thing that new ownership did was bring in a lot of new members and that hastened more posts with the fast and easy mentality. You have to go back years before FL took over to see a number of good threads.

              A certain core will hate it being said but previous ownership and management oversaw planting the seeds of what people are talking about now. FL just rained more traffic (and a lot of it from the wrong places to be fair) and what was planted started sprouting up

              What really good business conversation do you expect to get out of people who you attracted with $17 get rich fast and easy WSOs?
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              • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
                Or better yet, what can you expect when you allow people to make WSO's about making WSO's? LOL Seriously!

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Most of this thread is ridiculous due to not seeing that the seeds were sown a long time ago for what we are seeing now. How long was it going to be before a WSO mentality took over the general forums? The only thing that new ownership did was bring in a lot of new members and that hastened more posts with the fast and easy mentality. You have to go back years before FL took over to see a number of good threads.

                A certain core will hate it being said but previous ownership and management oversaw planting the seeds of what people are talking about now. FL just rained more traffic (and a lot of it from the wrong places to be fair) and what was planted started sprouting up

                What really good business conversation do you expect to get out of people who you attracted with $17 get rich fast and easy WSOs?
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

                  Or better yet, what can you expect when you allow people to make WSO's about making WSO's? LOL Seriously!
                  Well you see theres the thing. I see a lot of complaining (some justified) about scammers and banning etc but I think some of the problem new management must have is determining this communities' definitions of those things given that no one of average intelligence can tell me they looked at the first page of WSOs the last four years and didn't see scam's and scammers posted with consent . Thing is many of those were justified by some of the same people in this thread (and by Paul who had the power to control it and just plain didn't) under the guise (essentially) that the WSO forum is an advertising medium and cannot be controlled beyond a certain point.

                  So lets be honest and more precise. People are now talking about dealing with EXTREME scammers because scamming has for years been allowed by the very nature of some of the offers. The line has been drawn, erased and moved back over and over again so much so that in some cases the only thing that really separates an extreme scammer from a normal scammer is the presence of a refund policy.

                  Thats not the house that FL built. They just bought it but it is amusing watching the people who did build it lecturing and cursing out the buyers. FL must clean up and restructure but I think from someone coming in from the outside it must be a little confusing determining precisely where lines are drawn on scammers in a community that openly allowed them for years and in many cases, which I have seen with my own eyes, deleted complaints and posted defenses by pointing blame at the buyers.

                  Now management changes (and yes drives the wrong traffic to the place) and umm...its all their fault what we built. Its like a newly inaugurated US president being given the entire blame for the economy a few months into his term - totally ridiculous
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dennis
        I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

        ...but I wouldn't do that part again even if they were inclined to ask.
        I don't blame you, and that's why I emphasized "if" in my previous post.

        Back to radio silence for me.
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        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author keblack
    By the way, most people post things without searching for an answer because it is viewed as easier and quicker (which might not work out that way in reality), or because the search function did not return any great results. It is like everything today, a sign of the times, faster, easier, try and take the easy way out - I think that is why we have fast food restaurants. I'll bet many people post and leave to go to Subway, Macdonalds, Denny's, Swiss Chalet, Tim Horton's, Starbucks, or wherever, hoping to come back when they want expecting a few answers to be readily available. Wait a minute - that sounds like a good idea - but, before I go ...

    Not that I have as much experience as the rest of you, but I have been here a while. Wouldn't making the whole forum a paid forum at $10 a month, or whatever, work ? Or, assign a good initiation fee to be a member and then $5.00 a month to stay here - wouldn't that reduce the abuse or silly posts (I must admit some of them might have been from me over the years) on the forum? Would that increase revenue for the owners ? Not sure.

    Yes, it would reduce the number of members for a while, but would it be worth it ? Just saying ...
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by keblack View Post


      Not that I have as much experience as the rest of you, but I have been here a while. Wouldn't making the whole forum a paid forum at $10 a month, or whatever, work ? Or, assign a good initiation fee to be a member and then $5.00 a month to stay here - wouldn't that reduce the abuse or silly posts (I must admit some of them might have been from me over the years) on the forum? Would that increase revenue for the owners ? Not sure.

      Yes, it would reduce the number of members for a while, but would it be worth it ? Just saying ...
      Well, when Allen introduced the $10 joining fee there seemed to be a marked reduction in silly posts, dumb ass questions etc. I don't know why it was stopped, my guess would be big reduction in new members or it was impacting the bottom line (Bottom line being the WSO forum).

      But it depends what FL longterm goal is, are they looking for sheer numbers where quality is severely lacking or do they want a Forum that has an atmosphere conducive to learning, sharing ideas, having honest and constructive discussion, etc...

      We'll see where this goes, may the FL team will surprise us...
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      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

        Well, when Allen introduced the $10 joining fee there seemed to be a marked reduction in silly posts, dumb ass questions etc. I don't know why it was stopped, my guess would be big reduction in new members or it was impacting the bottom line (Bottom line being the WSO forum).
        If they introduced some sort of a fee, they could afford to get rid of the WSO forum
        and all the problems that go with it.
        It would rid the forum of a whole lot of scammers in record time.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

          If they introduced some sort of a fee, they could afford to get rid of the WSO forum and all the problems that go with it.
          Les, the WSO forum was probably the main reason they bought the site.


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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            Les, the WSO forum was probably the main reason they bought the site.


            .
            I know Frank, but it's a breeding ground for scammers and without any proper
            moderation it can only get worse.
            It won't be long before some legal department takes a long hard look at it.
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  • Profile picture of the author danieljb
    Firstly, thanks to all for contributing to this discussion. We can assure that we're listening and are committed to improving the forum while maintaining the good parts. We regularly go through the suggestion forum, PM's and support tickets and take note of what is being said.

    To introduce myself, I'm an administrator of the forum and sit next to Alaister. Prior to this, I've been a member of the Warrior community for around 4 years and so can appreciate the community's desire to change and can appreciate the history and gravity of most issues presented in threads. I'll be working closely with the team to implement suggestions and make sure issues are being addressed.

    In regards to all of the suggestions presented here, I'll go through them. I've noticed a few recurring items, particularly around the War Room, the WSO section, moderation in general, the bugs. We're working on these as we speak.

    The problem I see with new moderation is that they don't seem to actually take on a subforum and open the threads and seek out the spammers and nuke them. Even when I report one, I have to go to the history and get and report them all before they are nuked. Sometimes they're banned, sometimes not ... when it is really obvious from their histories that they are NOTHING but a spammer and should just be nuked permanently. They'll be back under a new ID in no time at all, but why treat them as their anything other than a spammer and just delete their posts or give them a temp ban? Some of the mods do nuke them, and probably ... hopefully a perma ban, but not all.
    We're very keen to weed out these people as well. We're going through a few different options and will move quickly on this. This is an ongoing battle with community forums, but we're in a position to handle this.

    Good grief! It appears as if Freelancer does not take a very hard line against blackhatters, pirates, plagiarism, spammers, or the self-serving link droppers. In the old days the pirate would have been dealt with but Freelancer evidently does not seem to be so responsive. It's sad, but true.
    We take this very seriously. Most of this the community never sees. We will work harder on what we do behind the scenes to prevent this from occurring again.

    A non-paying member who's posting junk and has very few posts should just be removed.

    Paying members should get more slack, but not because of the cash to the forum. The reasoning is that they're more likely to adjust to follow the rules since they have some skin in the game. Temp bans will almost always work for those folks.

    Removing someone with a big investment of time and contribution to the discussions should always be a last option, and be backed with more than just casual motivation. Especially if you're affecting their incomes.

    That said, there are things which should always result in permanent bans. Refusal to honor a posted refund policy, posting demonstrably fake testimonials, faked income screen shots, and any other clear scamming. Certain excessive abuses in discussion sections, spamming via PMs (not to be confused with sending business invitations that are not random and bulk in nature), and a few others.

    The object isn't to punish anyone. It's to stop behavior that harms the members or the forum. The desired measure is to use the least excessive means that will achieve that end.

    It's easy to forget that the new mods are still learning. In the past, a person had to have a very clear history here before I'd even think about suggesting them as mods. They understood the community based on long experience.
    I truly appreciate this. Thanks for this Paul.

    What I find a bit comedic and/or appalling is the number of folks trying to use the War Room as a PLR dump these days. Freelancer raised the price to $99 bucks a year yet they are approving ancient PLR that can be picked up anywhere and everywhere.
    PLR is definitely not something we want in the War Room. The War Room is designed to be THE PLACE for people to find unrestricted, high quality information that can be downloaded/viewed at any time. We're going to moderate this more heavily and start singling out poor offers. Some offers (and some sellers) have already been deleted from the War Room months ago because of the low quality.

    It's up to the mods and admins to smack this crap back...and it would not hurt to post some bold rules and/or thread closers to make people aware of what is acceptable and what is not.
    Completely agree.

    I always make it a point to post something on a War Room thread when I see a giveaway that is shady, shaky and/or inappropriate.
    The alternative is --> we members that take the time to report this stuff stop reporting it, and the quality of the forum gets worse. Eventually we reach our own individual tipping point where the forum becomes not valuable enough for us to invest our time, energy, and efforts in.
    Thank you for this and I understand what you mean. The community moderation for the forum has always been excellent. We're working on this.

    It appears to me that for both the War Room and the WSO forum, the only requirement to get a product listed is that you have the money to shoot over to Freelancer. I've heard more than one comment on WSO fraud not being dealt with by banning the seller and removing the product. The WSO listings are so saturated with the Ariba Ariba ... anyone can post a WSO and make a boatload of cash people that's it's not worth visiting any longer.
    The WSO marketplace is something we're working on fixing for some time. This is a high priority for us. Over the last few weeks we've been enforcing some of the new rules privately, particularly around income claims and thread bumps. The new rules aim to return the WSO marketplace to its former glory and we're looking forward to releasing these.

    They really should assign a mod to each sub-forum and make it their responsibility to open threads and learn the patterns of self promoters and spammers. Some of it is very obvious and some less so, but you're never going to learn it if you don't read the forum. As it is now, if the few people left who report posts all get sick of the futility of it, this place would be nothing but spam, with the exception of OT because the regulars here are simply not going to give in to it. Ironically, it will be the subforum with the liveliest conversations going on, albeit having nothing at all to do with the forum's core purpose - Internet Marketing.
    The biggest thing they can do as far as the mods is to have each of them pick one section of the forum and read it regularly. That's the only way they'll ever start to learn the patterns and get a real feel for the forum as a dynamic system.
    100% agree. Great suggestions and something we will do.

    I would simply forward the p.m. concerned to Alaister, the Administrator, politely but clearly making the points you make above, and inviting his observations.
    You're also welcome to PM me or use the support ticket system and that will reach us as well. Whichever way we hear from you, we value your observations. We receive a lot of requests, so just bear with us if it takes a few days to get back to you. We do read everything.

    add to forum training:
    SIGNATURE FILE RULES

    (1) Maximum length of sig file is 5 lines which includes any blank lines used for spaces.

    What surprises me most is that there are still some really good people on here (old timers even, Like Paul Myers and Mark Singletary) that still try their best to help out the newbies and even other old timers. Alexa Smith is another great example of someone that helps people despite all the BS being slung around here. She seems to try her best to help people out. I mean you don't see too many posters who have been thanked 23,000+ times. That shows some serious commitment. I don't know how she does it. I know I certainly don't have the patience for that kind of dedication to a forum like this.
    Consider it done.

    We're across with how much the community helps us and we truly appreciate this.

    1. The marketplace (the $$) needs a revamp. 2-3 weeks ago Alaister promised an update to the rules where they were training internal staff and would post it in a day or two. There is a way, I believe, to have it wildly profitable for FL AND to provide good value AND to be moral/legal/ethical. WIN-WIN-WIN. Right now NO ONE is winning. Sales are down. Traffic is down. $20 signup fees are down. Look at how many WSOs are selling in WP's own payment stats.
    We're excited about the new WSO rules. Completely agree that we need to fix these. We're privately rolling out some new rules, particularly around income claims and thread bumps. I apologize for the delay while we sort out things behind the scenes to make this happen. We see this is a very high priority and are looking forward to releasing.

    2. People, someone, needs to become the new Paul and come here at night and on the weekends - not just when "clocked in." They need to build a relationship that is rock solid here. They need to be the face. They need to respond - even if it's I don't know or management said your idea is crazy or whatever. But there has to be some trust built and right now there is 0% for most of us. There needs to be someone that lives it and breathes it and protects it - just like Paul (and others that were very visible) did.
    Excellent suggestion. Consider Al & I the face.

    3. Reducing barriers to entry is NOT the way to a successful marketplace. We see people all the time that are literally borrowing $20 so they can put up their WSO to tell us how to get rich. Or they have no idea about how to get traffic so they wonder if putting up a free WSO would work or not.
    Personally, I think this one may be more a symptom of a larger problem with low quality offers. I believe the new rules will help improve this.

    4. We have complained about the icons many, many times - mostly the ones that indicate participation in a thread. Management promises to look into it but has never either fixed it or explained that they weren't going to fix it. Forever looking into things without a follow-up and without actually doing anything is one of the reasons for a lack of trust. Someone that understood and loved the place could see that it's a huge problem and even if it wasn't a big deal to them personally they would make it a big deal because so many people have complained so many times.
    I apologize for the delay. We're looking at this right now (literally). We will work on being more transparent so you don't feel like the suggestion has been lost or forgotten.

    5. If FL can vet the WSO of the week that they send in an email they can vet them all. If they aren't vetting (and by the complaints I've seen they aren't) they are wrong and typical of a money grubbing, churn and burn "guru". We get enough of that. We want something we can trust.
    I understand and we want this to be a community, not a guru newsletter. We're working on our email campaigns. Thanks for this feedback.

    6. One idea that may be considered is creating a "member board" made up of various Warriors. This board could meet regularly through Skype or other group calling ways with FL management to discuss the state of things, give feedback, etc. FL retains full control with their in-house moderation but would get the advantage of having this focus group - people that care more than a sig - help drive growth and progress.

    Board members wouldn't need special titles or ranks per se - they just want to help. They don't need to be paid - but it would be nice. They would contribute out of a desire to make the place better and not let it die which would hurt some of us deeply. Then FL could take the best of the advice and implement it and put the rest on the back burner or scrap it. HOWEVER, to keep trust with the board, next month or quarter FL needs to be open and honest and say "we scrapped that idea put forth last time" or "this is in development AND will be ready 1st quarter 2015". Trust and relationship are key.
    Excellent idea. We could make it similar to WAMA where it is a live discussion and Q&A.

    7. Do something about the War Room. Upping the price without adding value is a little backwards. To be honest, many of the free WSOs that are in there are there because they failed as WSOs. There are none (that I remember) of the wildly successful WSOs that are listed there. There are a few extremely high quality things but most of it is from years past.

    It's a last shot at getting a little exposure for a failed WSO. If anyone actually looked at the downloads they would see why many failed. In many cases I would have felt a little cheated if I had paid money for the WSO.

    Many of the gifts are old and not updated leading to dead links. Rules need to be put in place as to how to handle limited time offers. If a poster deletes the WR gift then the thread needs to be locked with an indication that it is no longer available.

    Your WR bonus special promos aren't special at all. For example, I get 3 months free trial with my CC instead of 2 months that I can get on my own. That's good and all - thanks. But not worth $97 a year. It's still just a trial. And it requires further payment and/or submitting email to get the offer where those are disallowed in other parts of the WR.
    I agree. This is something we have been working on. The War Room should be a place for the best offers for free. Many products are quite good, but we will tighten this up.

    8. Understand that the complaining isn't because we hold a grudge, we hate FL, we have disrespect, etc. It's because we want the place to be better.
    We see it as feedback, and for that we're truly appreciative. Thank you for taking the time to relay this to us. You're welcome to PM me with any other feedback.

    #1 Paul and others have mentioned you need the mods to concentrate/focus on certain forums so they can learn the ins and outs and the posting patterns in the particular sub-forums. So many posters are hitting the forums with self-serving posts, sig exposure posts, link dropping posts etc. the mods need to be able to learn how to identify what is spam and what is not. Allowing the mods to "specialize" in a certain forum will be a big help and eventually the mods will learn that particular forum(s). Once the mods have a good understanding of a particular forum they will be able to do a better job acting on our reports.
    3 people have suggested this, I think it is a great idea and something we'll start doing.

    #2 You need one or two members of your team to focus on copyright violations when they are reported. Many a member here has been caught selling or giving pirated material away in the WSO section, Classified section and in the War Room. In-fact you guys actually promoted a Warrior Deal that contained a pirated theme and it sold hundreds of copies.

    When violations are reported sometimes they are not dealt with at all, or it takes a week or two for you guys to take action. By that time it's too late and tens, hundreds, or thousands of unsuspecting buyers have purchased pirated material that they do not have a legitimate license to use. The copyright violations and pirates should be dealt with swiftly and firmly.
    This is concerning that they would even pass through the moderation process. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, and we're going to take action on this.

    #3 The Search function has been broken for 6 months ---> please fix it. The "find all posts by user" only goes a short ways back for most users here. For instance when I search my own posts September 18, 2014 is as far back as it goes. I use this function a lot and it sure would be nice to have it working properly again.
    Absolutely. Sorry about the delay. Whenever it is brought up, we investigate, it is quite complex, but we have recorded the many issues are looking at the causes behind the scenes. One of the items that we're working on right now.

    #4 The War Room is not such a great place these days...at $99 a year I just don't see a big increase in value for the massive price increase. You need to post clear rules so people will stop dumping old third party PLR and Resell Rights stuff in there. I can join a PLR site and download hundreds of GB worth of stuff for just a few bucks in a week. I don't need to pay $99 a year for it and I am quite certain the War Room was not intended to be a PLR and Resell Rights dumping ground.
    We have begun moderating more heavily based on some things I saw a few weeks ago. 80% of spam such as "JV Opportunities" are deleted instantly from the War Room, but we will work on the remaining 20%. Absolutely appreciate you reporting those PLR products and we're going to improve the moderation process so they never see the light of day.
    #5 The WSO section is a mess and Alaister has admitted as much. Lowering the cost to list a WSO has diluted that section's quality so much that I will probably do my next launch off-forum. Just too much junk and free WSOs taking up too many eyeballs. Anyone with 20 bucks can post a get rich in 1 week scheme so why would I want to compete with that? Sure I offer a great product with ton of real value but the advantages of launching off-forum are quite significant at this point.

    #5B All of this has lead to a serious dilution of the WSO section:

    --> the abundance of free WSOs (Alaister has said these will be going to another section)
    --> the not so special offers that are listed in the WSO section (Alaister says the offer has to be special but nobody is moving these offers to Classifieds)
    --> the low price to submit a WSO means it's a Fiverr like free-for-all...except here you can promise 5 million bucks in a week and deliver almost nothing
    --> the no War Room requirement means fly-by-night wanabe vendors have even less skin in the game...if you have $20 bucks you can promise the world here on WF

    Alaister has repeatedly told us the rules were being rewritten and things will be cleaned up but it's just not happening. For example the mods seem to have little authority (or too much authority) because they are usually not acting on the "not a special offer reports". If I link the exact same offer that is available elsewhere when I report a "not so special offer" it's quite easy to determine the offer is not special --> so move it to classifieds.
    Thank you for the detail you've gone into here. We are making major changes to the marketplace. These are taking longer than we anticipated behind the scenes to implement. But this is a high priority for us and is something we have been working on for some time now.

    By allowing the discussion of buying fake likes, fake followers, phone verified accounts, proxies (very few legitimate uses), scrapers (including email and FB group members), etc. There used to be a rule that discussion or products that hurt other companies or were against their TOS was not allowed. Now these things are allowed, condoned, and thriving.
    Absolutely agree and will act on this feedback.

    Naturally I don't which, if any, of our suggestions will be acted upon and in what timeframe, but it was certainly good to know that 'The Management' is listening.
    We hear you and appreciate everyone's time in providing their honest feedback. From here, I have a large list of things we'll be doing. Bear with us as we make these changes, community feedback is something we value highly. As mentioned, I'm an administrator here on the forum and so you're welcome to private message with suggestions, post into the suggestion forum or submit a support ticket. Whichever way you contact us, we can assure you that we'll hear what you have to say.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Daniel,

    If you guys actually take serious action on the income claims and promises of specific results, you'll do more good with that one thing than almost anything else you can do here as far as the sales sections.

    That would be a huge step, which I think a lot of us would applaud loudly.


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author danieljb
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Daniel,

      If you guys actually take serious action on the income claims and promises of specific results, you'll do more good with that one thing than almost anything else you can do here as far as the sales sections.

      That would be a huge step, which I think a lot of us would applaud loudly.


      Paul
      Thanks Paul, I agree. The Other Products & Services subforum has been cleansed of these a few weeks ago and the sellers warned.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

        Thanks Paul, I agree. The Other Products & Services subforum has been cleansed of these a few weeks ago and the sellers warned.
        Now if you could just cleanse The Other Products & Services of the Freemarket ad that takes up 1/3 of the above the fold advertising space so that paying customers could start making some there again, that would be nice. Freemarket has its own space without encroaching on paying advertisers space.

        I think one thing about corporate culture is there all about making money, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure that Freelancer "gets" that if we, the paying advertisers don't make money from the space you're selling, we're going to drop it.

        The WSO forum is in such decline, both in traffic and quality, I wonder if anyone is making any real money there any longer, other than Freelancer. It doesn't take long for advertisers to realize they are not getting a return on their investment and go elsewhere.
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        • Profile picture of the author danieljb
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Now if you could just cleanse The Other Products & Services of the Freemarket ad that takes up 1/3 of the above the fold advertising space so that paying customers could start making some there again, that would be nice. Freemarket has its own space without encroaching on paying advertisers space.

          I think one thing about corporate culture is there all about making money, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure that Freelancer "gets" that if we, the paying advertisers don't make money from the space you're selling, we're going to drop it.

          The WSO forum is in such decline, both in traffic and quality, I wonder if anyone is making any real money there any longer, other than Freelancer. It doesn't take long for advertisers to realize they are not getting a return on their investment and go elsewhere.
          I saw the suggestion a few weeks ago. I'll see what we can do about this to find a balance. We want to support our community sellers as well. Is it okay if I PM you with some ideas when we've talked about it some more?
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

            I saw the suggestion a few weeks ago. I'll see what we can do about this to find a balance. We want to support our community sellers as well. Is it okay if I PM you with some ideas when we've talked about it some more?
            Sure. You can PM me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              I decided to make another effort to help out by reporting obvious spam...but just came from the email section and it's impossible. You have paid posters blatantly advertising in threads there. Some have been doing this in multiple threads with no consequences.

              These are not hard to see - you only have to read the posts to understand what is happening.

              Sellers are advertising "paid forum posting services" here...I'm surprised that is allowed on a forum where paid posting is becoming a problem.
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              • Profile picture of the author salegurus
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                I decided to make another effort to help out by reporting obvious spam...but just came from the email section and it's impossible. You have paid posters blatantly advertising in threads there. Some have been doing this in multiple threads with no consequences.

                These are not hard to see - you only have to read the posts to understand what is happening.

                Sellers are advertising "paid forum posting services" here...I'm surprised that is allowed on a forum where paid posting is becoming a problem.
                Yeah, also noticed that yesterday. Not only from new members but members that have been around a few years.

                Kay i used to get mad just like you are now but since ive stopped reporting i now just force myself to move on. I have noticed that the Mods/Admiin are taking firmer action against the nitwits that spoil it for everyone...

                Good On You Guys...
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  members that have been around a few years
                  I've noticed that part, too. Wonder if there's a healthy market in selling WF accounts?
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              • Profile picture of the author danieljb
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                I decided to make another effort to help out by reporting obvious spam...but just came from the email section and it's impossible. You have paid posters blatantly advertising in threads there. Some have been doing this in multiple threads with no consequences.

                These are not hard to see - you only have to read the posts to understand what is happening.

                Sellers are advertising "paid forum posting services" here...I'm surprised that is allowed on a forum where paid posting is becoming a problem.
                We're onto this, thanks for bringing this to my attention. If you're able to report posts we always appreciate it and can proactively monitor what's happening.
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                • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
                  Sorry that I didn't see/respond to this one earlier:

                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  I also think (even if only on "public policy" grounds) that it must be right to remove the people who habitually steal others' articles and paste them in, unattributed, as "forum posts", but the moderators and/or their "policy-setters" clearly don't agree with me about that one. Well, that's their right.
                  Is it? I'm certainly no lawyer, but wouldn't copyright violations directly affect the site owner? Or does WF get a pass as a "common carrier"? (Honest questions; not being snarky. IANAL!)
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                  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                    Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

                    Sorry that I didn't see/respond to this one earlier:



                    Is it? I'm certainly no lawyer, but wouldn't copyright violations directly affect the site owner? Or does WF get a pass as a "common carrier"? (Honest questions; not being snarky. IANAL!)
                    It would seem to me that the owners of a forum may get a little leeway, because it's not the owners or staff doing the posting. They would still be responsible for taking down any material reported to them as a copyright infringement.

                    I have to watch for that pretty close on my site because the people aren't for the most part very tech savvy and don't understand that you don't just grab something and post it because you liked it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author danieljb
                      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                      It would seem to me that the owners of a forum may get a little leeway, because it's not the owners or staff doing the posting. They would still be responsible for taking down any material reported to them as a copyright infringement.

                      I have to watch for that pretty close on my site because the people aren't for the most part very tech savvy and don't understand that you don't just grab something and post it because you liked it.
                      We're going to be more proactive around this, particular in sections where we moderate prior to approval (e.g. War Room, WSO). For any issues in future, you can report it and we'll take appropriate action as a priority.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Nice to "meet" you Daniel. Looking forward to the future with a little bit more hope now after your post and the meetup that was mentioned.

    Coming from corporate America I know that things have to be worked out in a different way than when it was just a one man show making all the decisions and I know that sometimes it's slow.

    One of the biggest things that would help the general feeling is to stay in touch regularly/daily. Be here and contributing. In the past we've gotten "we're working on it", "we'll look into it", "sounds good" followed by silence for weeks and no apparent movement on the suggestions which is followed by negativity/hopelessness/giving up on our part.

    I would much rather someone tell me I'm crazy and my suggestion sucks and you refuse to do it and threaten to kick me out if I bring it up again rather than the false hope that it's being worked on (but it's not really) and avoidance of the issues.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    You need one or two members of your team to focus on copyright violations when they are reported. Many a member here has been caught selling or giving pirated material away in the WSO section, Classified section and in the War Room.
    This is concerning that they would even pass through the moderation process.
    In your defense, it can be very difficult to identify pirated material. A one or two mod perspective can't possibly know all the products "out there" for sale. This is one area where the members, with their thousands of eyeballs, can help a great deal.

    In fact, you might want to consider funneling reports from the sales threads into a separate report queue, or have them marked differently from regular reports, so they don't get lost amongst the less important reports. The faster these are handled the better. It's too easy for important reports to sit at the end of the queue behind less important reports while the mods work their way through them.

    We're privately rolling out some new rules, particularly around income claims and thread bumps.
    Just getting rid of income claims would do wonders for the place, on many levels.

    Nice to meet you, Daniel. Your details responses were appreciated.
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      In fact, you might want to consider funneling reports from the sales threads into a separate report queue, or have them marked differently from regular reports, so they don't get lost amongst the less important reports. The faster these are handled the better. It's too easy for important reports to sit at the end of the queue behind less important reports while the mods work their way through them.
      Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about. Have the piracy and improper licensing reports funneled to someone that can check and/or verify whom has the power to act quickly. I suggested having a couple people deal with these reports so they would gain a good understanding of the types of piracy taking place and they would become more proficient at handling the reports quickly. I suppose they could have more people handle the reports, but it seems to me that having a couple specialists in this area that can drop the hammer in the paid threads when necessary would be a good place to start.

      Cheers

      -don
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      Should I ever find that something I created was then infringed upon in any section of the forum I'd simply go to support and submit an official DCMA notice. Screw the reporting feature.

      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      In your defense, it can be very difficult to identify pirated material. A one or two mod perspective can't possibly know all the products "out there" for sale. This is one area where the members, with their thousands of eyeballs, can help a great deal.

      In fact, you might want to consider funneling reports from the sales threads into a separate report queue, or have them marked differently from regular reports, so they don't get lost amongst the less important reports. The faster these are handled the better. It's too easy for important reports to sit at the end of the queue behind less important reports while the mods work their way through them.

      Just getting rid of income claims would do wonders for the place, on many levels.

      Nice to meet you, Daniel. Your details responses were appreciated.
      P.S. Sorry I probably should have multi-quoted. haha
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  • Profile picture of the author danieljb
    Nice to meet you all as well. I'm looking forward to working closely with everyone moving forward.

    One of the biggest things that would help the general feeling is to stay in touch regularly/daily. Be here and contributing. In the past we've gotten "we're working on it", "we'll look into it", "sounds good" followed by silence for weeks and no apparent movement on the suggestions which is followed by negativity/hopelessness/giving up on our part.
    Completely agree. We're going to be more in touch having a more visible presence here.

    In fact, you might want to consider funneling reports from the sales threads into a separate report queue, or have them marked differently from regular reports, so they don't get lost amongst the less important reports. The faster these are handled the better. It's too easy for important reports to sit at the end of the queue behind less important reports while the mods work their way through them.
    Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about. Have the piracy and improper licensing reports funneled to someone that can check and/or verify whom has the power to act quickly. I suggested having a couple people deal with these reports so they would gain a good understanding of the types of piracy taking place and they would become more proficient at handling the reports quickly. I suppose they could have more people handle the reports, but it seems to me that having a couple specialists in this area that can drop the hammer in the paid threads when necessary would be a good place to start.
    Interesting suggestion that we're going to talk some more about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Kay,

    Yep. Has been for years. I suspect the older accounts with War Room memberships went up quite a lot in market value recently.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Kay,

      Yep. Has been for years. I suspect the older accounts with War Room memberships went up quite a lot in market value recently.


      Paul
      Paul,
      Are them old War Room memberships salable on the Open Market j/k
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Daniel,

    I've reported a new WSO, just approved today, that is by someone that was banned for a previous WSO wherein it was brought out that what he was selling was stolen. Not sure if it was proven or not but there was no conclusion to the thread except that the owner of the stolen product said it was stolen. The seller never came back to answer the accusations.

    The WSO is still up so I can only assume the mods haven't looked at it yet - hope it's not being let through on purpose.

    I think part of your new processes and procedures needs to be a better/harder look at how banning happens and when unbanning happens. For example, someone that is thought to be a fraud should have more of a ban than a 2 week vacation, don't you think? In fact, why would they be allowed to return at all?

    Of course they can always just change usernames but when it's the same username as before it kind of makes a fella wonder how it fell through the cracks.

    It might also be a good check when approving WSOs to take a quick look at previous WSOs. That can be done fairly quickly by looking at the last couple pages of comments - not the first where there is ALWAYS praise and goodness.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author danieljb
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Daniel,

      I've reported a new WSO, just approved today, that is by someone that was banned for a previous WSO wherein it was brought out that what he was selling was stolen. Not sure if it was proven or not but there was no conclusion to the thread except that the owner of the stolen product said it was stolen. The seller never came back to answer the accusations.

      The WSO is still up so I can only assume the mods haven't looked at it yet - hope it's not being let through on purpose.

      I think part of your new processes and procedures needs to be a better/harder look at how banning happens and when unbanning happens. For example, someone that is thought to be a fraud should have more of a ban than a 2 week vacation, don't you think? In fact, why would they be allowed to return at all?

      Of course they can always just change usernames but when it's the same username as before it kind of makes a fella wonder how it fell through the cracks.

      It might also be a good check when approving WSOs to take a quick look at previous WSOs. That can be done fairly quickly by looking at the last couple pages of comments - not the first where there is ALWAYS praise and goodness.

      Mark
      Hi Mark,

      Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm investigating to see what has happened.
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    • Profile picture of the author danieljb
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Daniel,

      I've reported a new WSO, just approved today, that is by someone that was banned for a previous WSO wherein it was brought out that what he was selling was stolen. Not sure if it was proven or not but there was no conclusion to the thread except that the owner of the stolen product said it was stolen. The seller never came back to answer the accusations.

      The WSO is still up so I can only assume the mods haven't looked at it yet - hope it's not being let through on purpose.

      I think part of your new processes and procedures needs to be a better/harder look at how banning happens and when unbanning happens. For example, someone that is thought to be a fraud should have more of a ban than a 2 week vacation, don't you think? In fact, why would they be allowed to return at all?

      Of course they can always just change usernames but when it's the same username as before it kind of makes a fella wonder how it fell through the cracks.

      It might also be a good check when approving WSOs to take a quick look at previous WSOs. That can be done fairly quickly by looking at the last couple pages of comments - not the first where there is ALWAYS praise and goodness.

      Mark
      I've investigated and taken action on this now. Thank you for reporting and for your suggestions.

      Following bans for breaking WSO rules sellers will be barred from using our marketplace for an extended period of time; lifetime bans are on the cards.

      We'll work on prevention for future cases. Always welcome to PM me with any other issues as well so I can investigate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        This is the problem!

        You can't maintain the trust of those who come here to buy stuff if you don't have a hard line rule about BANNING those who cheat, scam, and steal from others.

        Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

        I've investigated and taken action on this now. Thank you for reporting and for your suggestions.

        Following bans for breaking WSO rules sellers will be barred from using our marketplace for an extended period of time; lifetime bans are on the cards.

        We'll work on prevention for future cases. Always welcome to PM me with any other issues as well so I can investigate.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          I'm quoting myself to take this a little further down the line.

          "In the cards" is a total waffle and by not forever banning people who conduct themselves untowardly, you are actually treating with "CONTEMPT" every one
          who conducts themselves professionally and ethically.

          As such why would ANYONE who's being treated with contempt want to stick around which in turn breeds even more contempt from those who do act professionally and ethically.

          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          This is the problem!

          You can't maintain the trust of those who come here to buy stuff if you don't have a hard line rule about BANNING those who cheat, scam, and steal from others.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

        Following bans for breaking WSO rules sellers will be barred from using our marketplace for an extended period of time; lifetime bans are on the cards.
        "On the cards" is hopelessly inadequate, Daniel.

        You make a permanent ban sound like a "really extreme remedy of absolute last resort" but actually it should be automatic, in many circumstances.

        (I suspect that - in some circumstances - quite apart from your desire to protect the members from scammers (?????), there could even be potentially adverse legal consequences for Freelancer, if you knowingly allow people to advertise here, who have previously broken the rules, and members lose money as a result.)


        .
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Unbelievable. About the same time I posted the above the WSO went off line - perhaps due to my report on the little red triangle.

    However, now it's back? You did your research and found no guilt and everything is hunky dory?

    If there is a non issue here then you need to discuss it in the original WSO where the accusations of stealing came out.

    Without saying you did an investigation and then allowing this person to continue sends what message?

    No matter how new a mod is, it doesn't take much to see the problem here. This isn't that hard: there are accusations of theft. Until they are resolved this user shouldn't be posting here. But I guess the admin has spoken so apparently I'm wrong in this.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author fast2net
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author seankaye
      I've met Matt at a few events and things over the years here in Sydney, he's a pretty smart guy and very engaged when you talk to him. The best compliment I can give him is that he's not been successful by accident.

      Just my two cents, but the mistake with FL's acquisition with WF was the transition. Parachuting people in to run this place who nobody knew making promises about "change" probably wasn't the most clever move.


      Someone made the suggestion about Paul going back to his old role and that's such a good idea that as a result it will almost certainly never happen. WF isn't corporate culture - to be fair, corporate culture in Australia is not "corporate culture" it's pretty laid back. Maybe someone who is only interested in making sure the WF quality is upheld is actually the right business decision as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by fast2net View Post

      I'm embarrassed to be seen on here and will be exiting forever come 2015.
      Yeah, that is why you shouldn't have used your real name.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Russ,
    You can't maintain the trust of those who come here to buy stuff if you don't have a hard line rule about BANNING those who cheat, scam, and steal from others.
    Amen.

    Even if you have those rules in place, you need to have mods who are able to enforce them and trusted to make the decisions. That is not the impression I'm getting from various comments here.

    Any system that allows for judgement calls, which a manual moderation approach always does, will be subject to slippery slope arguments. If the mods are consistent, there won't be many people who go over the edge accidentally.

    There are some things that should simply be cliffs. Faked screenshots and income claims, failure to honor a posted refund policy, not delivering what was promised, selling or trading customer email lists... Those should all be cliff-dropping offenses, with no appeal.

    If you unban people who were removed for those kinds of reasons, you are telling the world that the rules exist as a CYA "nod nod, wink wink" measure, and not to protect the members.

    I hope that's not what's happening.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,

    I will repeat for your benefit: I have never had anything to do with paid ads here, other than acting on reports. I didn't make the policies, and I didn't approve the ads. I had exactly no control over that process other than to suggest policy changes, which were sometimes accepted and other times not.

    No amount of repeating the same untruths will change those basic facts.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mike,

      I will repeat for your benefit: I have never had anything to do with paid ads here, other than acting on reports. I didn't make the policies, and I didn't approve the ads. I had exactly no control over that process other than to suggest policy changes, which were sometimes accepted and other times not.

      No amount of repeating the same untruths will change those basic facts.


      Paul
      If you are going to claim untruths were told much less repeatedly then bring some facts Paul. All I stated was the obvious truth.

      Solutions will never be lasting if we don't take a look at the ENTIRE problem and just always point at one party. FL drove some bad (for the community) traffic here. Previous management enticed the wrong crowd with its WSO message. It can be no more permissible nor constructive for Daniel to claim he is not responsible for decisions than it would be for the previous admin to claim separation.

      Much of the culture here in regard to offers were upheld by you as the admin of this board (and you decided to be that admin) so it is just blatantly unfair for everyone to now drop it at the feet of FL. In addition no newb here. I have seen posts in defense of status quo many times in the past (usualy expressing that the buyer is responsible for due diligence) - from the then admin. That just served to back up the policies you are now claiming to have no responsibility for personally and publicly upholding

      Opining about how FL is managing scammers when the culture was created under previous management is just ridiculous and theres just no logical spinning out of it. the danger of management hearing only those who in many cases upheld the laid back modding of scammers does the community no good although granted its very popular to bash only FL in a vocal subculture of the much larger culture of WF.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Mike, I agree that a lot of what is being blamed on FL started before. For example, income claims have been a longstanding "feature" of the forum. No one denies that.

    Let's be fair here to both sides.

    Paul has told me, when I have been very critical in the past, that he has long been against income claims as well as any ads that violated the TOS of other sites. Both suggestions were overridden by previous management for their own reasons. In the WSO rules, Paul added the bit about spamming other sites in the WSO rules which would eliminate some of the TOS breakers.

    Yes he decided to continue being a mod. You seem to think everyone is against FL but it seems some are against Paul. So what's the difference? Paul continued and now there are some that continue too. Let's don't vilify one and not the other. One big difference is that the current mods and admin get paid - as in money you can buy bread and milk with - while Paul was a volunteer and while he may have had some reputation or credibility "income" they are two very different things.

    Also comparing years (before) and months (now) is irrelevant when FL knew what they were buying and bought it willingly. Some were members here before and they certainly during the long term of negotiations could see what was happening - good and bad. They decided they liked it enough to pay millions.

    Also, most of the ones complaining now have complained loudly for years about the income claims and other things. Some of us have been extremely critical of Paul and previous mods and management many times. So if you are talking about the community in the sense of the frequent long term users, most are against the WSO shenanigans that have gone on in the past and present.

    I think there is also something to be said for previously there was NO rule about income claims but now according to the new management there IS and they are cracking down. Look at the first few pages of the WSO section with those glasses on.

    Previously it was "wrong" but there was nobody in charge (really in charge) against it so nothing happened obviously. Now it is "wrong" and is acknowledged as wrong by admin yet there is no action. Big difference.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Let's be fair here to both sides.
      Lets and thats my point - thats what my post provided...balance ... to a thread that is almost entirely about how FL is screwing it up with little historical context .

      In the WSO rules, Paul added the bit about spamming other sites in the WSO rules which would eliminate some of the TOS breakers. Yes he decided to continue being a mod. You seem to think everyone is against FL but it seems some are against Paul.
      You seem to be saying in a thread filled with criticism of FL that if someone balances that out by looking at other issues or parties it THEN becomes "villifying". Thats a very selective kind of spectacle to put on. Like I have said you have to actually be realistic about a problem to solve it and if you can only point out the failing of present administration with less than a year under their belt then its vastly unfair and its not likely to address systemic problems

      Claiming that because FL bought WF knowingly what transpired before and set up the present culture is irrelevant makes no sense. Of course people complained before about income claims and even scamming but what was done? nada in years. Adding a snippet about violating other sites TOS hardly gets to the core of what the WSO section has been known for for years. So that historical context indicates that if it couldn't be done in years before FL then FL just might take awhile to clean that up. No?

      For all the talk of how this or that person or group was not for something and against WSO mentalities where was this level of outrage? Most everyone in this thread were regardless singing the praises of WF, saying what a great community it was , patting ownership and Admins on the back at every turn as the good old boys and giving high fives and thanks all around while people were getting ripped in the WSO section. I hardly think that any of them felt less ripped off because mods or admins were paid or unpaid.

      I think there is also something to be said for previously there was NO rule about income claims but now according to the new management there IS..................Previously it was "wrong" but there was nobody in charge (really in charge) against it so nothing happened obviously. Now it is "wrong" and is acknowledged as wrong by admin yet there is no action. Big difference.
      You seem like a nice enough guy and intelligent (seriously not just words). You cannot be actually claiming that its worse for management and admins to admit to a problem than one that never owned up to it? Your right there is a big difference. The one that admits it is more likely to at some point to act on it where the one that refused to never would.

      They have work to do but I would think the admission is a vast improvement
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        You cannot be actually claiming that its worse for management and admins to admit to a problem than one that never owned up to it?
        I hear and acknowledge your point, Mike, but I think there are actually senses in which it's better and senses in which it's worse, too.

        One of the ways it's perhaps worse is that the latter scenario includes situations in which someone's unaware of a problem, in which case there's a limit to how much they can be criticised for not doing anything about it, whereas in the former case, if they acknowledge a persistent problem but do nothing to resolve it (with or without pretending that they're trying to do something to resolve it), then unless one's very naive, one's eventually going to start questioning their integrity rather than just their perceptiveness/awareness.

        Like so many things, the examples of it tend to be at least partly interpretative rather than simply objective.

        In this context, it doesn't actually matter very much.

        The reality is simply that we have extremely uncommunicative forum management which consistently ignores the advice and opinions of those with directly context-relevant experience, and as a result has both (a) done some real damage to their asset, and (b) offended and annoyed huge numbers of people who started off with lots of goodwill toward them. That's what matters.

        In a sense, sadly, Lucian's post from last night kind of "says it all".


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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        They have work to do but I would think the admission is a vast improvement
        You are right. Admitting there is a problem is the first step and a positive one from Freelancer.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    It is true that the problems being discussed have been festering long before FL acquired the forums. However it does seem there's less of a handle on it then before and I think that adds to the ongoing frustration that people are expressing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      There is significant difference between income claims and income guarantees.

      Eradication of the former would take out half of a money focused forum including many customer reviews and the latter would simply and effectively detract the forum of false promises....
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        There is significant difference between income claims and income guarantees.

        Eradication of the former would take out half of a money focused forum including many customer reviews and the latter would simply and effectively detract the forum of false promises....
        Eradication of either will decimate the already useless WSO forum. The only reason that any of those products launched by members of the last 5 minutes, with no reputation here at all, sell is because of the false promises. The dreamer market demands it and the sellers provide it. Lowering the bar to non-existent to launch WSOs has also helped to further degrade the WSO forum. Just because one is an income claim rather than a guarantee, does not make it true, either by the seller or the shills that are brought on to "review" them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Just because one is an income claim, does not make it true, either by the seller or the shills that are brought on to "review" them.
          ....and likewise it doesn't make it untrue or the reviewer a shill.

          A bias towards one side of the coin doesn't eliminate the other.

          Hypothetically, If you had customers (which you know to be legit) chiming in with testimonials detailing their income as a result of using your product or service, just how potent then would your war against censoring income claims be?

          Eradication of either will decimate the already useless WSO forum.
          If you think it's doomed regardless, your motivation then is surely questionable.

          If you stir for the sake of stirring when you insist the soup is spoiled, you'll only wear out your ladle...
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

            ....and likewise it doesn't make it untrue or the reviewer a shill.

            A bias towards one side of the coin doesn't eliminate the other.

            Hypothetically, If you had customers (which you know to be legit) chiming in with testimonials detailing their income as a result of using your product or service, just how potent then would your war against censoring income claims be?

            If you think it's doomed regardless, your motivation then is surely questionable.

            If you stir for the sake of stirring when you insist the soup is spoiled, you'll only wear out your ladle...
            I don't sell products with income claims or income guarantees or other unproven guarantees, so no, I do not seek out, nor would I welcome a customer making income claims on my behalf.

            Honestly, it makes no difference to me. I consider the WSO to be defunct. On it's way out, but whether that's true or not, people who make the money selling those slots most likely will not eliminate the unproven claims in listings ... The WSO would become a ghost town, so I just don't see that happening. I don't visit the WSO forum, nor would I buy products from anyone there that I didn't already personally know from the discussion forums who have excellent reputations.... and I never buy a product with income claims. I'm not the hopeless dreamer market that is the target of that type of product.

            If you think it's doomed regardless, your motivation then is surely questionable.

            If you stir for the sake of stirring when you insist the soup is spoiled, you'll only wear out your ladle.
            cute little quotes but meaningless. I have no motivation in making my observations other than to make them the same as everyone else does.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

            Hypothetically, If you had customers (which you know to be legit) chiming in with testimonials detailing their income as a result of using your product or service, just how potent then would your war against censoring income claims be?
            To expand on that, I sell a product, and I get questions in the thread all the time ... "how much will I make if I buy this?"

            Not a dime if you don't actually install them, rewrite the PLR content, add new content and actively promote the blogs. NOT A DIME.

            In 5 minutes time I could provide a screenshot of 277 members that paid $37 each for access. In addition to that, I sold the product unpackaged as singles for years and could come up with the proof of additional sales for each item. I'm simply not interested in the dreamer market and want people who realize that if they are going to make money, they will have to put in the work and not rely on a biz in a box method of making dough while you're sleeping.
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            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
              You circumvented the hypothesis and failed to address the core point.

              A pre-sale enquiry (and answer) is not a testimonial. The value of each is miles apart.

              If you are to hold ground on the basis that you don't speak from a bias, you'd need to show (though I don't expect you to realistically speaking) that you are actively and readily denying welcome of income based customer testimonials in your own ads in your stronghold against censorship against "income claims" on the Warrior Forum.

              Without that, to me, your bias is explanatory.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                You circumvented the hypothesis and failed to address the core point.

                A pre-sale enquiry (and answer) is not a testimonial. The value of each is miles apart.

                If you are to hold ground on the basis that you don't speak from a bias, you'd need to show (though I don't expect you to realistically speaking) that you are actively and readily denying welcome of income based customer testimonials.

                Without that, to me, your bias is explanatory.
                Whatever Daniel. I made my position perfectly clear to anyone not attempting to obfuscate my meaning with a bunch of BS. You sell what you want, however you want and I'll continue doing the same.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael75065
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          You seem to have some sort of OCD going on. For a time you were posting the same rant over and over about FB...until you got a 'time out'.

          Now you are doing the same thing regarding the forum. Quoting five posts with negative comments one after the other? There's no point in doing that.

          It's one thing to be frustrated and offer suggestions for improvement. If all you have is one negative comment after another with no constructive focus - why come here at all?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      It is true that the problems being discussed have been festering long before FL acquired the forums. However it does seem there's less of a handle on it then before and I think that adds to the ongoing frustration that people are expressing.
      Suzanne, who I rarely agree, with nailed the real issue in the other thread discussing the forum. Whats driving people crazy to put it frankly is the new members (some who have old accounts but were not participating before) It has little to do with management or mod change and at the moment not even really about WSOs. If WF had bought FL we'd probably be looking down the same barrel.

      Warrior forums is a few weeks away from total implosion because no meaningful conversation can take place with the new traffic driven here. I don't know if I am allowed to mention another forum but if not a mod can delete the reference. This is Digital Point traffic.

      To explain it to the FL guys WF is presently like an Australian Forum in which 20 to 1 posters has never lived or visited there but all have firm opinions as to what its like there and post their ideas as fact nonstop. It would drive any Australian (or any nationality) crazy and away. In the analogy Internet marketing is the Australia topic.

      Just about every single senior participating member of the SEO section I participate the most in has indicated they will probably take the new year as a time to leave. That includes me even as a supporter of management. The mind numbing inaccurate information is pushing us out the door in a wave to tall for us to combat.

      All this other stuff is just distractions from the real issue that will kill this place within the matter of weeks. The new members don't have money and whether we admit it or not sig traffic and conversions from that traffic for many of us helped justify as business people much of our time contributing here. Marketers minus money equals no marketers.

      We can argue about WSOs, scamming, admins, this or that, the community itself is in FAR GREATER AND IMMEDIATE DANGER because free signup traffic, not anything else, is whats immediately killing the place. The only solution is to lock it up in part or in full (probably not realistic). Make the War room a permission set not a forum and create advanced forums in every section so people can have some productive conversations without the kiddies etc junking up every conversation in every forum and thread. It can be done in minutes in VB (plus seriously who is going to reup each year for the war room if it stays the way it is?)

      If its not addressed soon within weeks from now you can just turn off the lights on your way out. You now own a smaller DP. You might as well have just started your own forum than paid millions for this one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,

    I addressed a specific statement you made which was not true. Here's another: I was not the admin of this forum. Ever. I was the public face of the mod team, 4 of whom had, as far as I understand it, exactly the same access and authority I had.

    And none of us were in charge. We were all quite clear that was Allen's purview.

    I have critiqued some decisions by the new management, but I have never claimed all the problems are the result of their actions. I've been very specific in my critiques. I've also been rather consistently and publicly supportive of the new mods and many of the new policies.

    There have always been problems here. They existed before I joined, and they've come and gone for the entire time since. Some significant trends started years ago, and will continue no matter what FL does. That doesn't mean they can't be adjusted for, but that takes awareness I'm not seeing at the moment.

    The "English as a poor second language" problem has been creeping up on us for at least 2, and probably more like 3, years. There is a way to minimize that (we've done it before), but it's ugly and messy and unpleasant. Plus, it takes more mods than we had for a long time, and they have to be people who speak English as their primary language to even begin to do it right.

    It also takes an active and engaged group of senior members. That's fast becoming a challenge for the kind of effort it would take to fix it.

    As far as WSOs...

    I pushed for, and for a while got, a rule forbidding offers that involved breaking the TOS of other sites. When that was removed, I got a similar (if differently worded) rule forbidding offers that involved spamming blogs, forums, and social sites. I harped on the need to abolish income claims and promises of specific results in ads here for years. That was one of the very first things I suggested to Alaister.

    A lot of sellers hated me because I enforced the rules. A lot of buyers (and more than a few trolls) hated me because I deleted comments that violated the "you have to own the product to review it and you can't attack people and call it a review" rules.

    You can make all the BS claims you like about deleting negative reviews, but I never removed even one that didn't violate those rules. And it's not hard to see the proof that we didn't just delete negative comments willy nilly, as there are many, many threads replete with bad reviews.

    You keep talking about scams, but I only remember you ever reporting one. I left that up to someone with more SEO knowledge than I had, which I thought was appropriate. Beyond that, you're talking a lot now for someone who did nothing to help with it before.


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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mike,

      I addressed a specific statement you made which was not true. Here's another: I was not the admin of this forum. Ever. I was the public face of the mod team, 4 of whom had, as far as I understand it, exactly the same access and authority I had.

      And none of us were in charge. We were all quite clear that was Allen's purview.
      admin "public face of the mod team". You say potato I say potatoe. Its all just clutching at straws Paul. You can call BS on anything you want but what was stated was a fact you just don't like. You were very supportive of this forum , its owner and what you believe it was accomplishing regardless of what was going on in the WSO section. It clearly didn't stop you from being gung ho about the place or matter enough to tender a resignation. Those are the facts. I suspect present admins are in much of the same position on some issues but they aren't ducking all responsibility (nor singing its greatness). I understand its not quite as entertaining watching critiques of new management when the subject goes back beyond them but in order to get at long standing issues in a community that has to be looked at as well

      you're talking a lot now for someone who did nothing to help with it before.
      What can I say? As suspected you truly have insulated yourself all these years Paul by only having people in your circle who agree with you or buy the various rationalizations you have offered. You actually presided over the place , talked it up and promoted it while WSOs you allege to be opposed to ran free but are trying to blame me for not reporting what you allowed (or chose to continue to be "the face of" ) ? That takes quite a bit of mental gymnastics.

      meanwhile I'd love to see all the threads where people were allowed over and over and over again to talk about how bad management is like is now being done. That works on newbs not those who knew it was more like a whimper over the years and they often got locked/delete (of course within the rules because the rules allowed for them to be locked).

      P.S. You are not as in touch as you think you are. Many people stay faaaaar away from the WSO section. I probably never reported a WSO because to my knowledge they had to pass moderation to get posted. Wonder who that was on?

      I dunno next time I see a thief coming out of a police station I'll call the cops.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        This is just an Observation but I must say it is pretty amazing and quite honestly refreshing to see dissent openly discussed here at WF without the consequences of things being deleted or locked like they were in the past.

        It gives a feeling of more 'realness'. And in my view enables us to move forward more effectively.


        Side Note : This is not a alignment with anyone or anybody.

        Just an observation
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          This is just an Observation but I must say it is pretty amazing and quite honestly refreshing to see dissent openly discussed here at WF without the consequences of things being deleted or locked like they were in the past.
          No alignment on your part taken but it is refreshing to see someone admit that this fantasy land where they never were isn't based on any reality.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,

    "Public face" means I was the one who talked about why decisions were made and explained policy. It also means I listened - a lot - to people who disagreed with those policies. There are people in this thread who can attest to that.

    What "public face" does not mean is "Person who made policy."

    I had a lot of influence and leeway in some areas, to be sure. In others, I went to Allen, every time. WSO policy was always up to him, as was anything else that involved sales here. I had nothing to do with the forum's finances, and left them out of my decisions entirely.

    There were plenty of threads in main discussion talking about moderation in negative tones. Much more strongly than some of the current threads. And some of the people in this thread participated in them. As long as they were kept civil, they were allowed.

    The fact that you didn't see them means nothing more than... you didn't see them.

    And yes, I was VERY supportive of what the forum was accomplishing. A lot of people have built businesses over the years based on what they learned here and who they connected with here. Including some of the same people who are cheerfully bashing it now.

    That doesn't mean I didn't see the flaws, or that I denied them. I also didn't use them as an excuse to deny the many good things going on here, or pretend there aren't good and bad sides to any community this big.

    Yes, I focused on the good. I also spent a lot of my time weeding out as much of the bad as I could. You're arm-chair quarterbacking, which is pretty useless come Monday morning.

    Oh... as far as staying away from the WSO section... Ask any of the folks who get my newsletter when I last promoted an offer there. Or consider that I haven't run one myself for a paid product in years.
    I probably never reported a WSO because to my knowledge they had to pass moderation to get posted. Wonder who that was on?
    The WSO rules are pretty clear that reporting problems is encouraged. It was also acted on, when the problems could be substantiated.

    And implications notwithstanding, I still had nothing to do with any paid offers being approved here. Your belief that I had any control over that section other than responding to reports is simply wrong.


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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mike,

      "Public face" means I was the one who talked about why decisions were made and explained policy. It also means I listened - a lot - to people who disagreed with those policies. There are people in this thread who can attest to that.

      What "public face" does not mean is "Person who made policy."
      Not interested in long back and forth with you but the web is full of admins that do not make policy so you are arguing with a definition in your own mind. Facts are you oversaw and chose to be a part of it and continued to be part of it. Its not grown up to claim - I have no responsibility whatsoever for my choices. Doesn't make you the Devil but it doesn't make you a saint either. None of the people scammed by the offers to make $10,000 a month are the least bit alleviated by you claiming you just went with orders. It is what it is. Its a positive move that we have admins now willing to make these changes . It might be true its because of higher ups agreeing but it might be true that their decision to work with FL even to a small degree has to do with management that would take such stands.

      People have built businesses and will continue to do so without supporting or associating with suspect things. Sorry its not a justification. If you and certain group had been more vocal and showed anywhere near this level of dissent then things would likely have been cleaned up long ago.

      Much more strongly than some of the current threads.
      Total Malarkey. You can pull a link here and there but there has never been this level of criticism allowed here. Its incessant and has even accused management of lying . Frankly I don;t know how they have not (if they have not) figured out that there is a whole set down here that have absolutely no intention of giving them any slack and some that have even stated they are here to watch it go down . You can always say I just never saw it..
      However since it was not deleted then go ahead and show us all the threads where day in and day out ownership and management were cursed out. Funny you sure can't miss it now even if you tried.Was that in the 90s?

      As for your Monday Morning quarterbacking charge (and I'll end our back and forth on this) . I wouldn't allow the pig skin that has flown around for years get any touchdowns for scammers. I would have locked it down or quit supporting the system that let it fly. thats where we are different and your sense of moral supremacy falls flat. I don't think scrubbing at the edge tiles of an otherwise suspect pool with a toothbrush gives me big brownie points. Again doesn't make anyone the devil but this whole I am pure as the driven snow thing in threads where present admins are getting bashed constantly is just utter nonsense.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        I have never seen the intensity of BLATANT and utterly despicable disrespect and condescending attitudes of many long time members towards FL and the new management.

        Many times I have felt totally embarrassed.

        You know what the completely ironic thing about it all is ??

        I'll use a metaphor here. The US citizens who burn the US Flag because they cannot stand the US and its policies are the same people being protected by the US and its policies so they can in fact burn the US Flag and have Free Speech. Is that Irony or what?

        Much like the Members here who are being unreasonably disrespectful towards the new " screwup and inept " Management. ....well their Posts are being held in tact without deletion by the same "screw up " mgt. that is protecting their Free Speech here as a WF member.

        See the Irony ? To me this allowance of Free Speech in of itself says a lot about the New guys. Good things about them that is.

        And listen, I am not saying do not go against the grain and keep your mouth shut towards issues that need addressing. Things definitely need to be addressed. Just keep it Civil and not derogatory.

        That doesn't get us anywhere, imo !!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
        [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    What is bad, actually as bad as anything we are discussing, is that some of us are stuck in the past (pro and con) instead of talking about the current and future.

    It doesn't really matter, at this point, what Paul did or didn't do before - he has no more say about things (from a "position" standpoint) than anyone in this thread NOW.

    It doesn't really matter, at this point, what Allen did or didn't do before - he has no more say about things because he sold the place.

    It doesn't really matter what someone's attitude was before but what it is now. This is a new setup, a new deal, a new family, a new company and a lot of the old stuff just doesn't matter anymore.

    Stop living in the past and let's talk about the current and future. The forum is what it is today for whatever reason.

    Those making suggestions that old mods were bad in somehow allowing the scamming or wronging of people in the old forum and for continuing to participate in a forum full of scammers are still here themselves.

    Those bashing FL that didn't bash the old WF are just as wrong especially when most of the problems are the same. I for one, was pro WF before - warts and all - and am pro WF run by FL - warts and all but in both cases I criticized, complained, and suggested and still do that the needed changes be made to protect and build something I value.

    Those sticking up for new management while deriding old management - again when the problems are the same for the most part are wrong. If X was wrong before then X is still wrong. If Allen and them didn't stop X before they were wrong. If FL doesn't stop X now they are wrong. Period.

    For example, how long exactly would it take to cut out any income claims if that was deemed to be a problem for Allen? About 30 seconds - long enough to write an email to Paul and other mods and say from today on this will stop. But he didn't. How long would it take now? About the same 30 seconds. But they aren't. Yes there are other decisions and things to consider in play but it's the same 30 seconds. The fact that Allen didn't pull the plug for 15 years doesn't give FL a free ride just because it's been merely months. 30 seconds is 30 seconds. Again, you have to look at WHY they WERE and ARE allowed to see why it is or isn't happening.

    It's like the $20 WSO listing fee and lifting of the requirement that someone had to be a WR member. How long did that take to implement? That was extremely fast work on FL's part which proves that they can do things quickly when they want to. Why did Allen NOT do that over the years and instead increased the fees? Again a difference in the "why."

    What I'm trying to say is the divorce (for lack of a better word) is final. We need to focus on the new marriage, building it up, preserving it, keeping our spouse happy, doing what we can to make this one last and be better than the last one. Forever talking about the first marriage (the good and bad) really doesn't help much in the current marriage because the new spouse has their own personality, baggage, beliefs, etc.

    For this reason I started a new thread Has Freelancer Done ANYTHING Good... that you can post how YOU would change things. (I swear that I posted it in the OT section but somehow it is now in the Suggestion section - maybe I clicked the wrong thing.)

    Give it a shot. For the sake of the CURRENT situation. Yes learn and grow from the PAST but focus on the future.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Stop living in the past and let's talk about the current and future. The forum is what it is today for whatever reason.
      You are twisting the context of how that issue arose. It arose because if previous admins didn't solve the issue then we should not be overly harsh NOW PRESENT TENSE to this group if we don't blink our eyes and it doesn't change instantly. Thats the relevance. Its not a matter of living in the past .

      We need to be realists as well. Few businesses are going to turn down a lot of their business overnight. People's jobs are often tied to income performance. Their jobs feed their families. So no I don't think its really realistic that FL waltz into the WSO section and nuke every single claim over night. Its most likely going to be a process so its really not fair to go into the section and say AHA I still see them there.

      You weed out the most extreme. You send the message that that wont work going forward and you allow sellers to change their messaging. You then move down the line to the lesser extremes. Thats where historical context matters for the present tense. You recognize the issue is not relegated to who is in charge but that there had to be issue regarding finance why they were not dealt with before and these matter to this present day situation.

      Besides that I will just disagree with your premise. I don't see how you get to the bottom of a problem and solve it if you don't look how you got there. If its because we kept moving the lines on scamming as a community and people got used to it or its something that is just a policy issue by FL then they are varying issues to be dealt with.
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  • Profile picture of the author NeedBucksNow
    I think the problem is that everyday there are going to be new people to the forum that have never made money online & don't realize that they should spend an hour searching previous posts to see if anyone else has asked it before (usually have). I was in the same boat when I 1st joined & still continue to learn something new everyday just from reading posts that have been made on here. Would be kind of cool if you were redirected to a previous post if it has already been made in the last 90 days though
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Well, I won't be posting in the main forum any longer. I'm just not interested in reading the constant negativity some members regurgitate over and over and over again. It's kind of crazy how these guys will continue coming to a forum only to hate on things related to this forum.

      IM is a scam, IM gurus are scammers over and over again. I even see one hater talk about how bad im'ers where and then go on to say he has no problem bootlegging movies off of torrent sites.

      Eh, who needs that type of negativity? I know I certainly don't.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Well, I won't be posting in the main forum any longer. I'm just not interested in reading the constant negativity some members regurgitate over and over and over again. It's kind of crazy how these guys will continue coming to a forum only to hate on things related to this forum.

        IM is a scam, IM gurus are scammers over and over again. I even see one hater talk about how bad im'ers where and then go on to say he has no problem bootlegging movies off of torrent sites.

        Eh, who needs that type of negativity? I know I certainly don't.
        It's getting (or has been for some time) the same in OT ... only it's the same loudmouths who can't stand anyone who has an opposing opinion and they turn the thread into a personal flame fest. Two threads on the stupid movie The Interview were closed because two people resort to constant argument and name calling. So everyone else who can discuss things without that gets punished for it and can no longer discuss the topic.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...hack-sony.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...interview.html

        It gets real tiresome to have one closed thread after another, largely because of mostly one person.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          It's getting (or has been for some time) the same in OT ... only it's the same loudmouths who can't stand anyone who has an opposing opinion and they turn the thread into a personal flame fest. Two threads on the stupid movie The Interview were closed because two people resort to constant argument and name calling. So everyone else who can discuss things without that gets punished for it and can no longer discuss the topic.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...hack-sony.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...interview.html

          It gets real tiresome to have one closed thread after another, largely because of mostly one person.
          Though I agree, you might want to review your own posts Suzanne.

          I just ended a conversation with you after you stooped to calling my opinion "a bunch of BS".

          Calling out an individual here is only going to cause a so called "flame fest" here too....

          Not intended as a spark on my part, just something for you to consider....
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

            Though I agree, you might want to review your own posts Suzanne.

            I just ended a conversation with you after you stooped to calling my opinion "a bunch of BS".

            Calling out an individual here is only going to cause a so called "flame fest" here too....

            Not intended as a spark on my part, just something for you to consider....
            Actually Daniel, what I said was that you were attempting to obfuscate my very clear opinion with BS ... not that your opinion was BS.

            I don't agree with your core hypothesis, but perhaps income claims is the way you promote, so naturally you'd defend them.I don't really know what you sell and how you sell it and I am unconcerned in general about what happens to the WSO forum, so it doesn't really matter to me personally, what kind of offers are allowed or not allowed.

            But I do reiterate that the bulk of offers that I see are not "real" testimonials. They are shills. They've been given the product for free or have some other connection to the seller. It's fairly obvious that reviews that pop up as soon as the thread is live are pre-arranged reviews, and I personally don't not assign credibility to them.

            The only reviews I have come after the customer has downloaded my product and has had a chance to use it. I do not request reviews. They just happen naturally in my thread and I don't give away review copies of anything. That is the only kind of review that I will take into consideration when considering buying a product and you usually have to page through the first two pages before you start getting to spontaneous reviews that didn't have an incentive given to them to post it.

            So there, you see ... we still completely disagree with each other, but I did not call you names or curse your mother. I simply stated my opinion and I'm well aware that I'm not in the majority when it comes to sales letters and reviews. But I'm comfortable with that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              because two people resort to constant argument and name calling
              ...again

              And, for some reason, a very few select members are able to do that repeatedly with no consequences from mods who seem willing to go along and close threads those particular persons have a problem with.

              That, to me, is more damaging to this forum than much of the other crap going on. I said a while back - we seem to have a new 'old boys club' and I stick to that.

              These are not bad people and certainly are intelligent folks - they often have some interesting facts to share. However, they have no limits here to what they can say and how rudely they can treat others. What's worse - they KNOW they have no limits here. They are part of some developing 'inner circle' that I want no part of.
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              Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                ...again

                And, for some reason, a very few select members are able to do that repeatedly with no consequences from mods who seem willing to go along and close threads those particular persons have a problem with.....

                However, they have no limits here to what they can say and how rudely they can treat others. What's worse - they KNOW they have no limits here. They are part of some developing 'inner circle' that I want no part of.
                Closing a thread when there are one or two people poisoning it with personal attacks does nothing to stop those people from doing it over and over ... Closing it just brushes the problem off ... there now ... nobody can talk about it. They get off scott free and continue to destroy threads that others would like to continue reading and participating in.

                But you're right ... the very thought of banning people seems alien to them, even in the case of fraud. I mean, "and permanent bans could be on the table." When were they off the table?

                It makes no sense to allow a few abusive posters who resort to personal attacks to ruin the forum for everyone else, but that, along with all the incomprehensible posts, the spam post, the self promoting posts is exactly what is happening (and for those who don't know the difference between a spirited conversation and personal attacks, there is a huge difference).
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                That, to me, is more damaging to this forum than much of the other crap going on. I said a while back - we seem to have a new 'old boys club' and I stick to that.
                Freelancer is a corporation. The only old boys club that will take root here will reside in Australia and be employed by FL. I think what really bothers some people is that the olds boy club has been demolished/demoted. They are screaming hard and turning almost every thread about the forum into rants against management but feel their derailments should be treated differently than how they want others to be treated
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            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Actually Daniel, what I said was that you were attempting to obfuscate my very clear opinion with BS ... not that your opinion was BS.

              I don't agree with your core hypothesis, but perhaps income claims is the way you promote, so naturally you'd defend them.I don't really know what you sell and how you sell it and I am unconcerned in general about what happens to the WSO forum, so it doesn't really matter to me personally, what kind of offers are allowed or not allowed.

              But I do reiterate that the bulk of offers that I see are not "real" testimonials. They are shills. They've been given the product for free or have some other connection to the seller. It's fairly obvious that reviews that pop up as soon as the thread is live are pre-arranged reviews, and I personally don't not assign credibility to them.

              The only reviews I have come after the customer has downloaded my product and has had a chance to use it. I do not request reviews. They just happen naturally in my thread and I don't give away review copies of anything. That is the only kind of review that I will take into consideration when considering buying a product and you usually have to page through the first two pages before you start getting to spontaneous reviews that didn't have an incentive given to them to post it.

              So there, you see ... we still completely disagree with each other, but I did not call you names or curse your mother. I simply stated my opinion and I'm well aware that I'm not in the majority when it comes to sales letters and reviews. But I'm comfortable with that.
              In any context, suggesting a person is stating "BS" perhaps won't sit well and surely isn't a solution to quelling the air of controversy that you mention.

              It wasn't my intention to open up the discussion again, but your elaboration is appreciated and so I'll elaborate too:

              There are many vendors who hold their legit income-based reviews as valuable commodities and they pride themselves upon client success. I think then, to bid for income claim rules which can only serve to exclude these valued reviews (without being hypocrticial to the overall rule itself) is perhaps not taking time to consider the full picture fairly.

              In the real world, income claims are part and parcel of portfolios and business infrastructure. If the topic of income was circumvented, we'd have no ecomony.

              Removing income claims in reviews doesn't rid of shills. A shill can quite easily claim that they achieved a #1 position in Google as readily as they can claim having generated a sum of money....
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              • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                In the real world, income claims are part and parcel of portfolios and business infrastructure. If the topic of income was circumvented, we'd have no ecomony.
                To be fair, in the real world there are audits and bank statements and credit checks and notaries and bonds and lawyers to verify income claims. Here there are screen shots which have proven to be able to be changed to reflect whatever is wanted.

                Removing income claims in reviews doesn't rid of shills. A shill can quite easily claim that they achieved a #1 position in Google as readily as they can claim having generated a sum of money....
                Good point. In the Google case, if the keywords were given we could search ourselves. In other similar type cases it may not be so easy to verify.

                Mark
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                In the real world, income claims are part and parcel of portfolios and business infrastructure. If the topic of income was circumvented, we'd have no ecomony.

                Removing income claims in reviews doesn't rid of shills. A shill can quite easily claim that they achieved a #1 position in Google as readily as they can claim having generated a sum of money....
                Ok ... give me an income claim that is absolutely guaranteed to result in exactly that or more than stated income in the "real world."

                I can't think of a single product that I have ever bought in the real world that came with an income claim. I was however, highly disappointed in my shipment of sea monkeys.

                The only thing I would buy with an income claim is an established business after reviewing the financials with a lawyer.

                .... and I also object to all unsubstantiated claims, such as you will be #1 in Google if you buy this and the traffic will blow your server out.

                But I'm not rallying for the changes. As I said, I simply don't care about the WSO forum at all. I do not use it to buy or sell and will not use it, so it makes no difference to me what the management does or doesn't do there. It's their ballgame.
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                • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  Ok ... give me an income claim that is absolutely guaranteed to result in exactly that or more than stated income in the "real world."
                  What needs to be guaranteed?

                  It's an income claim.

                  I oppose guarantees.

                  .... and I also object to all unsubstantiated claims, such as you will be #1 in Google if you buy this and the traffic will blow your server out.
                  Rightly so as there is no difference and equally there is no way of enforcement against shills as I state.

                  But I'm not rallying for the changes. As I said, I simply don't care about the WSO forum at all. I do not use it to buy or sell and will not use it, so it makes no difference to me what the management does or doesn't do there. It's their ballgame.
                  I'm quite puzzled since your participation in the thread has suggested to the contrary...

                  If it's their ballgame, why not leave the issue rather than oppose?
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                    What needs to be guaranteed?

                    It's an income claim.

                    I oppose guarantees as I've previously stated.

                    Rightly so as there is no difference and equally there is no way of enforcement against shills as I state.

                    I'm quite puzzled since your participation in the thread has suggested to the contrary...

                    If it's their ballgame, why not leave the issue rather than oppose?
                    That's my point ... anyone can make any claim at all if it's not backed up with verifiable proof and exactly what good is it if it is not guaranteed and verifiable. It's just another claim in a sea of claims that are or are not true, but no one really knows which.

                    Don't know why I chimed in, but I did ... but I don't lobby for changes in a forum I don't use at all. My point was that I fully do not expect the administration to make hard cuts and rules for the WSO forum, alienating the sellers who spend their money there. The majority of the offers would disappear with rules against income claims or guarantees or other unsubstantiated claims.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                There are many vendors who hold their legit income-based reviews as valuable commodities and they pride themselves upon client success. I think then, to bid for income claim rules which can only serve to exclude these valued reviews (without being hypocrticial to the overall rule itself) is perhaps not taking time to consider the full picture fairly..
                I think a clarification needs to be made (and I even think you might have made it but its being missed). Theres a difference between income claim and SPECIFIC income claim.

                The entire education industry is based in large part on an income claim - better income/way of life for the educated.

                Much of business is predicated on income claims. So there is no way you are going to eradicate income claims. I don't think thats even on the table here with WSOs. Whats on the table would be more violations of FTC guidelines. In sweeping terms

                promises or implied promises of a particular level of income

                and

                extrapolating from a limited experience to generalized expectation (I made this so you are likely to do so too).

                To be honest the sum benefit will be clarity to the buyer. However a good but subtle copywriter will still be able to bait the hook.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        IM is a scam, IM gurus are scammers over and over again. I even see one hater talk about how bad im'ers where and then go on to say he has no problem bootlegging movies off of torrent sites.
        .

        Given the state of internet marketing I think it only fair we put up with some of these sentiments from the public. We can't ignore what is coming out of IM and the public has a right to complain from time to time. I certainly do NOT want to go back to locking such threads or leaving them and collectively modding them by shouting them down (no defense of that person with the duplicity of finding boot legging fine).

        Some complaining works hand in hand with cleaning up our own problems in the WSO section.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Given the state of internet marketing I think it only fair we put up with some of these sentiments from the public. We can't ignore what is coming out of IM and the public has a right to complain from time to time. I certainly do NOT want to go back to locking such threads or leaving them and collectively modding them by shouting them down (no defense of that person with the duplicity of finding boot legging fine).

          Some complaining works hand in hand with cleaning up our own problems in the WSO section.
          Hey Mike,

          I am all for productive feedback but this goes way beyond that.

          I don't allow negative people in my life and for the most part doing so has worked out quite well when it comes to me being happier.

          I don't see the need to frequent a place where the same negative people keep saying the same things. These people are not trying to be productive, they are pushing an agenda. This constant pushing does set a tone and one I am not interested in participating in.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            I don't see the need to frequent a place where the same negative people keep saying the same things. These people are not trying to be productive, they are pushing an agenda.
            I hear you .

            I should have said before that I got your point on repetition from the same people if it continues on for a long period of time. Some people are just working out frustration (which in some cases is legit and others based on their laziness). If thats all the person is doing day in and day out for months then your point is well taken.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Well, I won't be posting in the main forum any longer. I'm just not interested in reading the constant negativity some members regurgitate over and over and over again. It's kind of crazy how these guys will continue coming to a forum only to hate on things related to this forum.

        IM is a scam, IM gurus are scammers over and over again. I even see one hater talk about how bad im'ers where and then go on to say he has no problem bootlegging movies off of torrent sites.

        Eh, who needs that type of negativity? I know I certainly don't.
        I wondered as well why people who believe that ALL IM is a scam even come here at all. What is their real purpose? And like you said, these seem to be new members recruited directly from Black Hat Forums. Their thieves and pirates and don't have an ethical code of their own, but they're dead certain that everyone here is a scammer. That's the Black Hat party line 100%. This forum is degrading to that level.

        There is and should be legitimate concerns about some IM offers. From the big boys who rake in millions on TV ads or the ones interviewed by Oprah, the phone lines scamming people out of retirement incomes, to the $7 offer here that does not deliver on promises, people have gotten burnt ... and some of that is their fault. They do no due diligence and a believe in fairy tales and wonder why some of it is a lie. The problem is, they really don't seem to know how to separate the lies from truth ... either that, or the type of product that they are interested in ... IF A DRUG ADDICTED HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT CAN MAKE 10K IN 1 WEEK - YOU CAN TO. (in your pajamas).

        If that doesn't scream at you that you should probably pass on that, nothing will. And you see them saying things like "I bought 40 WSOs and they were ALL scams."

        lol. When are you going to decide to quit buying those offers with that kind of track record?
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I wondered as well why people who believe that ALL IM is a scam even come here at all. What is their real purpose? And like you said, these seem to be new members recruited directly from Black Hat Forums. Their thieves and pirates and don't have an ethical code of their own, but they're dead certain that everyone here is a scammer. That's the Black Hat party line 100%. This forum is degrading to that level.

          There is and should be legitimate concerns about some IM offers. From the big boys who rake in millions on TV ads or the ones interviewed by Oprah, the phone lines scamming people out of retirement incomes, to the $7 offer here that does not deliver on promises, people have gotten burnt ... and some of that is their fault. They do no due diligence and a believe in fairy tales and wonder why some of it is a lie. The problem is, they really don't seem to know how to separate the lies from truth ... either that, or the type of product that they are interested in ... IF A DRUG ADDICTED HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT CAN MAKE 10K IN 1 WEEK - YOU CAN TO. (in your pajamas).

          If that doesn't scream at you that you should probably pass on that, nothing will. And you see them saying things like "I bought 40 WSOs and they were ALL scams."

          lol. When are you going to decide to quit buying those offers with that kind of track record?
          I can't say for sure, but I would bet it is lack of success that drives a lot of these people. People don't like personal responsibility. It's much easier to say "I was scammed" instead of "I couldn't make it work" or "I shouldn't have allowed my greed to fall for that sales pitch".

          I can't recall really purchasing anything that I thought was a scam.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            I can't recall really purchasing anything that I thought was a scam.
            I only did once and the result was predicatable. It was cheap, I knew it was probably garbage, but something piqued my curiosity enough to spend $7 and my gut instincts were correct. lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    It's funny. I was thinking exactly of college courses I've taken and note that none of them ever conveyed either a written or spoken income claim when reading over the course catalog from the college about the courses. People expect and hope to get a better job if they are well educated, and I've heard some claim about job placement after college, but many of them actually have job placement services at the college to assist their graduates in finding jobs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      It's funny. I was thinking exactly of college courses I've taken and note that none of them ever conveyed either a written or spoken income claim when reading over the course catalog from the college about the courses. .
      Thats because in most cases thats a post sale process (actually picking out the individual classes) or at best a detail of the product description. You can deny it if you wish (After all you can deny a blue sky on a clear day on a forum if you wish) but the sales pitch for many a college enrollment is the reward of better income so its is an income claim thats part of the sales "copy".

      P.S. In many cases the pitch is actually made by the parent of the college student but it doesn't change that thats the pitch.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        P.S. In many cases the pitch is actually made by the parent of the college student but it doesn't change that thats the pitch.
        I see... and that's so much like unverified claims in a $7-$37 WSO. Your Mom telling you this is a good school to go to that's within our budget.

        At any rate, even talking about college classes in relation to the stuff that's in the WSO forum is pretty silly. I haven't seen anything in there that rises to the level of college material or that takes more than about 30 minutes to an hour at the most to read.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I see... and that's so much like unverified claims in a $7-$37 WSO. Your Mom telling you this is a good school to go to that's within our budget.
          No my mom telling me that if I go to college I can earn more money is in fact an income claim of being able to earn more money if I go to college. You can argue that it is not so for optimal incoherence if you wish. I won't complain.

          At any rate, even talking about college classes in relation to the stuff that's in the WSO forum is pretty silly.
          No whats pretty silly is not realizing we were talking about sales claims in sales copy not the actual quality of the product. Income claims as per the FTC has nothing to do with the quality of the product itself but the claims to sell it. Doesn't matter if its a college or an internet marketing product. You are hopelessly lost on what the issues are that were being discussed and thats why you couldn't see what Daniel was referring to.

          In addition limiting the discussion to the parameters of what is presently in the WSO section while discussing what should and should not be allowed in the future is not particularly meaningful but if you missed the previous you'll probably miss that point as well.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            No my mom telling me that if I go to college I can earn more money is in fact an income claim of being able to earn more money if I go to college. You can argue that it is not so for optimal incoherence if you wish. I won't complain.

            No whats pretty silly is not realizing we were talking about sales claims in sales copy not the actual quality of the product. Income claims as per the FTC has nothing to do with the quality of the product itself but the claims to sell it. Doesn't matter if its a college or an internet marketing product. You are hopelessly lost on what the issues are that were being discussed and thats why you couldn't see what Daniel was referring to.

            In addition limiting the discussion to the parameters of what is presently in the WSO section while discussing what should and should not be allowed in the future is not particularly meaningful but if you missed the previous you'll probably miss that point as well.
            Well, that's a brilliant marketing strategy I must say. Getting dear old Mom to do your dirty work for you by telling you the value of an education instead of creating cheesy long sales letters complete with great big letters and yellow highlights and unverified income claims all over the Internet to spread false hope in millions of dreamers minds (which is a marketing tactic used primarily by IMers, rather than the brick and mortar financial and educational businesses you are discussing. Kudos to the universities for thinking of that.

            I've only seen it used in quite the same way, complete with highlights and ridiculous claims, by the good people who sold sea monkeys to probably thousands at least, of unsuspecting kids who came across all of those dubious ads in the back of magazines. You know the ones ... X-Ray Vision Glasses, Sea Monkeys, etc.

            The discussion is about the Warrior Forum and not the whole wide world in general, but you go ahead and discuss whatever you want from any ever changing position you want to take. It seems I read, although I may be mistaken because I don't really absorb the drivel you are so noted for, that you made quite a few disparaging remarks about the state of the WSO forum, although in your version I'm certain that it was Allen and Paul's fault.

            Certainly Allen created the WSO forum and there were dubious offers, but not as many as there are now, and banning people permanently was routine when they were found to be scamming people or violating other TOS.

            What has happened in my view, is a massive drive to recruit 100,000 members of little to no value to the forum. The results are obvious. In addition to that, removing the price barrier to launch a WSO alllows those same worthless new members to come here and instantly post their garbage offers because now they can afford it instead of because they have a dynamite offer. Those results are also obvious. The WSO is flooded with them.

            So now it appears that you're all for unverified claims and absolutely no changes are needed. Is that the case now?

            ... and for the record, I'm certain that there are reputable members here still selling, or attempting to sell, outstanding products, although a lot fewer of them than there was before. It's simply that, without the lively, intelligent discussions that we used to have in the WF that made you take notice of the people you respected and their signatures, you have to sort through a mile high trash heap in a landfill to find them now (the WSO forum). Building a reputation here through the discussion forums use to matter, and those who skipped that step in the sales process weren't nearly as successful as those who contributed here. That's no longer the case.

            As for your continuous assertion that I am missing your point or Daniel's point, you're missing the point that I do not agree with those points, so I give them no weight and don't feel that discussing or acknowledging points that I believe are just false flags serves any useful purpose. Period.

            So this is the end of my conversation with you in particular. You know all that "carry over" stuff you mentioned and how you make everything personal when you don't like someone, or they have the unmitigated gall to disagree with your opinion, and tirelessly attempt to badger into submission with abusive posting (kind of like what you just did in your series of highly abusive posts responding to Paul). Apparently, your moment of contrition was as short-lived as your ban for abusive posting. Long conversations with you are just pointless, and I've never been prone to self-abuse by continuing to subject myself to it. I've just gone ahead and added you to my block list so I don't even have to see your posts any longer. Should have done that a long time ago.

            Is anyone else seeing the same abusive, personal attack pattern that we were just discussing? Not only the quotes below, but in this thread and others like it and particularly the highly abusive and personal attack on Paul. (...and anyone here who thinks that calling something BS when they feel it's BS is abusive posting, your bar is set way too high. Abusive posting is extreme and personal and is always an attack on the person it is directed at. And in the case of MA, it's a bar that he doesn't pretend to live up to when attacking those he holds in disdain).

            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
            You can argue that it is not so for optimal incoherence if you wish. I won't complain.
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
            You are hopelessly lost on what the issues are that were being discussed and thats why you couldn't see what Daniel was referring to.
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony but if you missed the previous you'll probably miss that point as well.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              banning people permanently was routine when they were found to be scamming people or violating other TOS.
              It was, and rightly.

              My guess is that, one way or another, that will end up being the case in future, too, even if only to avoid potential legal problems: it seems to me that for the forum knowingly to accept advertising from people who have previously scammed members or violated terms of service here is skating on perilously thin ice. What disappoints me so much is that it seems that this can come about (if at all) only "by necessity" because the forum's management apparently didn't want it to be that way, right from their start, here.


              .
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              So now it appears that you're all for unverified claims and absolutely no changes are needed. Is that the case now?
              .
              Sigh....... like I said you are hopelessly lost at what was being discussed and you just proved it. Neither Daniel Or I were discussing maintaining the status quo. What we were attempting to do is have an intelligent discussion on the kind of income claims that would continue (and some definitely will). His point was on "guarantees" being different from just income claims and mine was on the general nature of "this will improve your income" being in essence (and rationally undeniable) an income claim. .

              So to Spell it out again ..its discussion about the future - going forward - so pointing out all that is in the WSO section now is no rebuttal to the points being raised. We are all in agreement changes need to be made and we already have management saying they are being changed.

              You are capable of intelligent conversation but particularly when logically countered your adrenaline kicks in and YOU initiate condescension to others ideas. First it was calling Daniels posts BS (we all know what that is short for and its definitely neither respectful nor kind despite logical contortions that it should be excluded from scrutiny), then my posts were " silly" and "drivel" but then when someone replies that you are being incoherent all of a sudden THEN you cry thats abusive.

              What it is is transparent and underlines a point I have made often. Quite a few of you in the anti new management crowd can dish it out just fine and dandy. Its the people that disagree with you that you define as abusive and you do so to attempt to squelch their disagreement with you and limit their free speech on this board. If my rebuttals to Paul are personal abusive attacks exactly what do you call a certain groups non stop vitriolic attacks on Freelancer in MUTLIPLE threads? Its all the kind of schoolyardish - "we can say anything we want to whoever we want because its the truth but if you talk truth to one of our friends well then thats abusive and bad". It just doesn't fly logically.

              You want the freedom to call peoples post BS then they can if the shoe fits call your argument incoherent. I suspect that no mod will try and parse that as different as you are begging it should be (because.....well.....its incoherent)

              P.S. Sorry Freelancer did not overnight change the nature of the WSO section and make it more fraudulent. Anyone who has eyes and a mind can go back and see the the pages and pages of offers before they took over. They are right there in later pages. Unless they are messing with the dates on this site (or are capable of time travel) many bumped threads have dates preceding Freelancer taking over so the argument just doesn't work.
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                What it is is transparent and underlines a point I have made often. Quite a few of you in the anti new management crowd can dish it out just fine and dandy. Its the people that disagree with you that you define as abusive and you do so to attempt to squelch their disagreement with you and limit their free speech on this board. If my rebuttals to Paul are personal abusive attacks exactly what do you call a certain groups non stop vitriolic attacks on Freelancer in MUTLIPLE threads? Its all the kind of schoolyardish - "we can say anything we want to whoever we want because its the truth but if you talk truth to one of our friends well then thats abusive and bad". It just doesn't fly logically.

                You want the freedom to call peoples post BS then they can if the shoe fits call your argument incoherent. I suspect that no mod will try and parse that as different as you are begging it should be (because.....well.....its incoherent)
                Yes, unfortunately this has been a continuing theme I have observed myself.

                In the long run, you can be EXTREMELY FIRM with your concerns and issues while also maintaining a balance of tact and professionalism along with it.

                Unfortunately, I have seen little of this balance exhibited by many of the Warriors including some long term Members

                It seems to be more about Ego to some of these folks.

                I keep hearing this nonsense about how "these new people are not listening to us " etc..etc..

                My goodness, it has only been 6 months or so since these new people have come here.

                Give me a call back in 2 years. And then you can bitch.

                But in meantime, give these folks a chance.

                Many of you really have no clue about how a Corporate environment works. Which is obvious with all the childish bickering and 'debbie downer' attitudes.

                Seriously, take a step back because honestly it reminds me of being in Kindergarten and the kids hating the new student. Its absurd, and I thought a year ago I would never seen fellow Warriors acting like this

                Being a part of Corporate America for many years myself , you have to learn to lets things play out and proceed with composure. Be firm and state your concerns, issues, frustrations etc.. even if you have repeat it over and over again .

                But be respectful.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                  Yes, unfortunately this has been a continuing theme I have observed myself.

                  In the long run, you can be EXTREMELY FIRM with your concerns and issues while also maintaining a balance of tact and professionalism along with it.

                  Unfortunately, I have seen little of this balance exhibited by many of the Warriors including some long term Members

                  It seems to be more about Ego to some of these folks.

                  I keep hearing this nonsense about how "these new people are not listening to us " etc..etc..

                  My goodness, it has only been 6 months or so since these new people have come here.

                  Give me a call back in 2 years. And then you can bitch.

                  But in meantime, give these folks a chance.

                  Many of you really have no clue about how a Corporate environment works. Which is obvious with all the childish bickering and 'debbie downer' attitudes.

                  Seriously, take a step back because honestly it reminds me of being in Kindergarten and the kids hating the new student. Its absurd, and I thought a year ago I would never seen fellow Warriors acting like this

                  Being a part of Corporate America for many years myself , you have to learn to lets things play out and proceed with composure. Be firm and state your concerns, issues, frustrations etc.. even if you have repeat it over and over again .

                  But be respectful.
                  Freelancer time and time again has asked for feedback and it should be apparent to anyone who has eyes that they desperately need real feedback, as opposed to general butt kissing feedback that does not address the reasons why this forum won't be here in that two year period you are talking about to give you a call back.

                  The person you just chose to quote is the one, who is in fact vitriolic and touts "freedom of speech", when in fact, freedom of speech is not in the TOS. It's owned by a public corporation who can determine what speech stays and what speech doesn't.

                  Being firm and stating our concerns is exactly what many of us are doing, although as time has progressed, you will see and are seeing these people less and less concerned. Why? Because the situation here appears to be nearing the hopeless cause phase, where there is little that could be done to alleviate the very real problems here.

                  If the statistics below don't indicate that those problems are not a figment of our imaginations, then nothing will. But I will get back to the main point, and that is, there are a lot of long standing members here who spent big dollars on advertising here and launching products here and joining in discussions here who never have a bad word to say about what is happening to this forum ... because they abandoned ship some time ago. Not very constructive feedback eh? They left. They're gone. Their products and ad dollars are gone, their very real contributions to this forum are gone.

                  I stated that I am not lobbying for any changes in the WSO forum. Why is that? Because I simply don't care any longer. I have just a couple of sales pages here (actually one) that I still bump at all, but my sales pages have been moved off of this forum and my real marketing efforts and new launches are happening off of this forum. Why? Because I'm an asshole? No. Because the changes have made my advertisements less and less profitable hosted here, so I am not willing to spend money for diminishing ROI.

                  I did a WSO experiment awhile back, because I don't regularly use the WSO forum and wanted to see what the new experience would be like. I have launched a new site selling things that would be popular here back in a day. I created a new account and launched a WSO announcing the products and the site url in the sales letter.

                  Within a couple of hours, I got a Google alert on the site name from a Black Hat Forum. They had posted my download directory, which was good in a way, because it showed me a problem with my setup. I immediately shut that WSO down and deleted the whole sales letter, bought a new domain and moved the site. Those at the BH forum were flabbergasted to say the least when they went to the url posted and just saw an animation of a bunch of trolls dancing and sticking their butts out at them. lol.

                  Needless to say, I will never post a new site that I have spent months developing on the WSO forum again. I have spent my time doing some basic SEO on the site and have some very good rankings in Google for some important keywords and none of the BH sites have picked up the new url.

                  Of course, pirating and just outright thievery has always existed here, but to have that happen within a couple of hours after launching a new site ... well, I just consider the WSO forum to NOT be my target market.

                  So, it's the quiet ones ... the many valuable members who have just simply walked away and won't be back that are speaking a great deal louder than the ones who are voicing their concerns, and those members have been replaced by extremely low value members ... and I hesitate to even call them members as it is apparent that most of the 100,000 "new members" aren't posting and contributing here. They too ... many of them ... came and saw and left. They are inactive, and that's probably a good thing because the many that are active have degraded the forums to the point that no one can have a real discussion any longer.

                  So, if you in particular don't have any concerns and you think everything is peachy keen, fine, but some of us who still care at least a small amount about this forum, and see it sinking like a stone will discuss this ... and when they stop, you will know that they are now gone too.

                  Alexa
                  Mar 16, 2014 Global Rank 215

                  When Freelancer took over
                  April 12 2014 Global Rank 250
                  July 17, 2014 Global Rank 268
                  Dec 29, 2014 Global Rank 670

                  Visitors by Country
                  Country.............................Percent of Visitors............Rank in Country
                  India........................................21.1% ...........................327
                  United States..........................16.1%............. ............1,235
                  Australia..................................6.1%... .........................170
                  United Kingdom........................5.2%............... .............476
                  Canada Flag............................4.0%.............. ...............430


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                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                    You still don't know if the session timeout has been shortened....
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                      You still don't know if the session timeout has been shortened....
                      Who doesn't know and why would anyone care about the session timeout? How does that address diminishing traffic by such a large number, even though there are now 100,000 more members than there were? How does that affect the masses who have simply left rather than complain?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                        The new management employed changes and they may have decreased the time it shows a user online after they have gone offline.

                        Previously a user would show as being online for two hours after going offline.

                        That setting may have been reduced to reflect more realistic stats.

                        Thus, none of the stats you have presented stand as viable contrast to support your claim as true or untrue as your claim may be.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                          The new management employed changes and they may have decreased the time it shows a user online after they have gone offline.

                          Previously a user would show as being online for two hours after going offline.

                          That setting may have been reduced to reflect more realistic stats.

                          None of the stats you have presented stand as viable contrasts to support your claim as true or untrue as they may be.
                          I see. It's all because of session timeouts. Okey dokey ... moving right along.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            I see. It's all because of session timeouts. Okey dokey ... moving right along.


                            Suzanne, if emotion stands in the way of you and composed, mature discussion then it was probably a good idea for you to have moved along some time ago....
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                              Suzanne, if emotion stands in the way of you and composed, mature discussion then it was probably a good idea to have moved along some time ago....
                              Daniel ... it's really getting old ... the old "you're emotional" crap when I simply find that your session timeout remark is so off of the mark that it doesn't merit a real discussion, when faced with the very real decline of key elements of this forum. So with that, as I already very emotionally implied

                              /over and out on session timeouts being the cause for the figures being what they are.

                              ... but if you want to discuss session timeouts, be my guest.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                Sometimes when things reoccur it's best to take heed and adjust rather than ignore and label as old.

                                There's only an "out" on your radio - the one with the broken earpiece.
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                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                  Sometimes when things reoccur it's best to take heed and adjust rather than ignore and label as old.

                                  There's only an "out" on your radio - the one with the broken earpiece.
                                  I'll bet you bought those X-Ray vision eyeglasses Daniel and can see me as I type. I can assure you that I'm not melting down, nor am I in the least bit emotional, but go ahead and try to discredit my gathering of numbers and my opinions by implying that I am a basket case and no one should consider what is plainly evident to many other basket cases on this forum who don't believe that session timeouts are the cause of the decline of this forum or a real consideration when it comes to those numbers.

                                  Does session timeouts also affect the membership typing incoherent broken English gibberish in nearly every thread in the forum?

                                  Is session timeouts also responsible for all the spammers, link droppers and self promoters who poison nearly every discussion in the forum?

                                  I think we should start a thread in the suggestion forum immediately so that management is aware of a severe session timeout problem that should be addressed as soon as possible. I think I'll do that as soon as I take a handful of tranquilizers and down them with a fifth of vodka.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                    I didn't discredit your numbers by implying you are a basket case.

                                    I took the time to explain cleary why the viewing numbers are perhaps irrelevant.

                                    Your emotions were addressed in reference to them blinding you from the points being raised. Q.E.D.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                      I didn't discredit your numbers by implying you are a basket case.

                                      I took the time to explain cleary why the viewing numbers are irrelevant.

                                      Your emotions were addressed in reference to them blinding you from the points being raised. Q.E.D.
                                      Well, I disagree with your opinion that the numbers are irrelevant and I'll bet you $5 that Freelancer disagrees as well. I'm fairly certain that they have even more sophisticated tracking programs in place that picture a need for concern, but that won't be posted here.

                                      I wonder why Matt Barrie held a meeting in the UK to discuss with some of the top members here what they see as problems and solutions for the WF? I wonder how many of them told Barrie that session timeouts were the problem... that his numbers are irrelevant because it's all because of the session timeouts. lol.

                                      I am bound to my points by what I observe, not by emotions as you continue to suggest without even knowing me. But do go on if that makes you happy.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                        Well, I disagree with your opinion that the numbers are irrelevant and I'll bet you $5 that Freelancer disagrees as well.
                                        They won't find viewing stats irrelevant since they know the timeout setting which is the point still missed.

                                        We do not know of possible setting changes.


                                        I wonder why Matt Barrie held a meeting in the UK to discuss with some of I wonder how many of them told Barrie that session timeouts were the problem... that his numbers are irrelevant because it's all because of the session timeouts. lol.
                                        Session timeouts aren't the problem.

                                        The point is that using the viewing stats as a basis of judging traffic is flawed since we don't know of any changes which might have been made to the timeout setting.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Michael75065
                                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                      I didn't discredit your numbers by implying you are a basket case.

                                      I took the time to explain cleary why the viewing numbers are perhaps irrelevant.

                                      Your emotions were addressed in reference to them blinding you from the points being raised. Q.E.D.

                                      I agree with her post and posting WF has gone way down in my opinion Lot junk on here like facebook and crazy monitors on hereor admin people on here
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                    I'll bet you bought those X-Ray vision eyeglasses Daniel and can see me as I type. I can assure you that I'm not melting down, nor am I in the least bit emotional,.

                                    Clearly this must be true based on your last few posts. Even claiming that anyone that doesn't agree with your rants against management is a "butt kisser" speaks to your non emotional state. Rest assured we are assured

                                    The person you just chose to quote is the one, who is in fact vitriolic and touts "freedom of speech", when in fact, freedom of speech is not in the TOS. It's owned by a public corporation who can determine what speech stays and what speech doesn't.
                                    Precisely and why I referred to freedom of speech because by not outlawing disagreement from a vocal minority (who often pretend to speak for the majority) it IS in their terms of service to allow a level of freedom of speech. Whats not there are individual members trying to characterize speech so they can make a case for censuring or even banning while they themselves engage in the same things they accuse others of (as perfectly illustrated as if on cue by your recent posts).
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                      Previously a user would show as being online for two hours after going offline.

                                      That setting may have been reduced to reflect more realistic stats.
                                      "May have been" is not the same argument as "were reduced"...and honestly I doubt that is the reason. The reason for my doubt is that numbers increased for a couple months after the forum was moved - the acquisition of WF by FL was in the news and people were curious. Also, there were new traffic sources and numbers increased.

                                      Freedom of speech here is "I think....my opinion is....I disagree because....".

                                      It is not "you are wrong, you are emotional, you don't know"...

                                      The traffic source may be a problem - or maybe not. I've thought perhaps the forum is going in the direction FL intended it to go. If that is the case, no point in critiquing it at all.

                                      It's increasingly difficult to take this forum seriously with the number of threads about "earning $1" or "$1 product" or "turn $5 into $20"... My son used to say "there is a point when a problem becomes the dumb leading the brainless".

                                      There is a tendency now to say "go away, then" when old-time members complain about quality of threads and posts now. Gradually, going away is what is happening and I'm not sure that's a good trend.

                                      We've always had the silly thread, the lecture thread, the dreamer thread...but we've never had so many of them or so many people willing to answer them and start arguing with each other about those answers.

                                      It may be the segmentation into so many topics that has changed the face of the forum. I think FL is fully aware of the potential problems and I'm happy to hear they are reaching out for help in solving them.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                        Kay, I didn't imply that the timeout was reduced.

                                        I stated that it may have been and so it should be considered.

                                        I appreciate you actually addressing the topic though and expressing your thoughts, though I think the setting still could have been changed at any time after the takeover.

                                        It's just something I was pointing out for consideration and why using the viewing figures as a basis of comparison might be futile.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                          Banned
                                          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                          Kay, I didn't imply that the timeout was reduced.

                                          I stated that it may have been and so it should be considered.

                                          I appreciate you actually addressing the topic though and expressing your thoughts, though I think the setting still could have been changed at any time after the takeover.

                                          It's just something I was pointing out for consideration and why using the viewing figures as a basis of comparison might be futile.
                                          What's Going On?
                                          Currently Active Users: 13226 (2239 members and 10987 guests)
                                          View Who's Online
                                          Most users ever online was 161,840, 19th June 2013 at 08:50 PM.
                                          Well, let's wrap this up now.

                                          @ Freelancer: Did you or did you not reduce the timeout settings
                                          I await your answer.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                            You posing that question puts us in agreement.
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