Why Aren't Women Police Officers Using Exessive Force?

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In the light of recent news headlines on Ferguson, IL and now New York city. A question keeps coming to mind as to why men police officers and few if any women police officers feel a need to use excessive force. I recently read this shocking statistic.

"At a time when male officers outnumbered female officers on patrol at a rate of 4:1, the payouts involving excessive use of force by male officers exceeded those for female officers at a rate of 23:1.

In other words, the average male officer cost over five and a half times more than the average female officer in terms of excessive force payouts.

When payouts for just assault and battery are examined, the ratio increases to 32:1. If only killings are considered, it skyrockets to 43:1."


I think one of the first studies the string of committees should investigate is what are women police officers doing that men aren't.

You would think the stats would be the opposite. Women are smaller for the most part. Physically weaker for the most part. And should feel more threatened or prone to use excessive force as opposed to men. Right?

So the million dollar question is ... why don't women Police Officers feel the need to use excessive force?

I've yet to hear anyone research this in detail. But I believe it's one of the keys to reducing even solving this problem. Any Police officers out their or more specifically Women police officers?

Here's a copy of the article that inspired this post
A Tale of Two Genders
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    GIVE ME A BREAK! How many women COULD use excessive force? How many women are in such situations? How many are in ANY such situations? And then there is a question as to how the situations would be prosecuted. Comparing things like this just doesn't work. Frankly, I can't remember a female officer stopping me, though several males have.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      GIVE ME A BREAK! How many women COULD use excessive force?
      Ah, you realize they carry a revolver, shotgun, baton and handcuffs too, right?

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Comparing things like this just doesn't work.
      I'm not sure what you mean by work. I'm just saying it may be worth looking into.

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Frankly, I can't remember a female officer stopping me, though several males have.
      I'm not sure what conclusion you're trying to draw from that. But
      if you live in an average sized city there is a 1 in 4 to 1 in 10 chance you will next time.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Ah, you realize they carry a revolver, shotgun, baton and handcuffs too, right?
        YEP, and HOW many of those are used in "use of excessive force"? There WAS the recent Brown event, but evidence looks like it wasn't excessive use ANYWAY! You have GOT to be kidding about the shotgun! If someone used it to subdue a suspect on the street, I suspect THEY would end up in jail!

        I'm not sure what you mean by work. I'm just saying it may be worth looking into.
        I'm saying there are a lot of things to consider. As they say, most people that have cancer have eaten carrots!

        I'm not sure what conclusion you're trying to draw from that. But
        if you live in an average sized city there is a 1 in 4 to 1 in 10 chance you will next time.
        What does the size of the city have to do with it? STILL, I lived most of my life in what, as far as the police department of jurisdiction was concerned, was one of the largest cities on the planet. Here is what Wikipedia says about it:

        The Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) is the police department of the city of Los Angeles, California. With 9,843 officers [2] and 2,773 civilian staff,[2] it is the third-largest non-federal law enforcement agency in the United States, after the New York City Police Department and the Chicago Police Department.[7] The department serves an area of 498 square miles (1,290 km2) and a population of 3,884,307 people.
        Of course, it is only ONE of the agencies there I had interaction with. There is also the CHP(7500+ officers) and LASD(about 20,000 officers). I believe they ALL hire women in all roles as well.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Interesting discussion so far. I'm enjoying both the ones who agree with me and the ones who don't. Even those who think it's a dumb question. It's all good, my goal is dialogue.

          If something is working in one instance but not the other, hard questions should be raised as to why, in my opinion. That's all I'm asking.

          Maybe there's a logical reason. If there is don't you think we should know, instead of guessing, speculating or worse ignoring it?

          Afer-all your son, brother, or friend's life could depend on us knowing the answers. With such profound statisfical differences across the board, I think we can rule out coincidence, or female officers being more pampered or protected. I've seen no evidence of that at all. If you have any please refer me to it.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

            Interesting discussion so far. I'm enjoying both the ones who agree with me and that ones who don't. Even those who think it's a dumb question. It's all good, my goal was a dialogue.

            If something is working in one instance but not the other, question should be raised as to why, in my opinion. That's all I'm asking.

            Maybe there's a logical reason. If there is don't you think we should know, instead of guessing, speculating or worse ignoring it?

            Afer-all your son, brother, or friend's life could depend on us knowing the answers. With such profound statisfical differences across the board, I think we can rule out coincidence, or female officers being more pampered or protected. I've seen no evidence of that at all. If you have any please refer me to it.
            For the record, I never said anything about protection or being pampered. I think it would make more sense to compare CASES rather than numbers! Let's say that most of the men worked in more violent areas or with more violent people, you would expect them to have more cases of excessive force.

            Even the LAPD has areas that are like leave it to beaver, and nice. The LAPD ALSO has places that are like WAR ZONES!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              For the record, I never said anything about protection or being pampered. I think it would make more sense to compare CASES rather than numbers! Let's say that most of the men worked in more violent areas or with more violent people, you would expect them to have more cases of excessive force.

              Even the LAPD has areas that are like leave it to beaver, and nice. The LAPD ALSO has places that are like WAR ZONES!

              Steve
              Now that is a real fact. Stats at times can be very misleading.
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            • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              For the record, I never said anything about protection or being pampered. I think it would make more sense to compare CASES rather than numbers! Let's say that most of the men worked in more violent areas or with more violent people, you would expect them to have more cases of excessive force.

              Even the LAPD has areas that are like leave it to beaver, and nice. The LAPD ALSO has places that are like WAR ZONES!

              Steve
              I understand your point. But I haven't seen any evidence of it. I don't live in but I go to some of the most violent areas of Los Angeles, i.e Compton, Watts, South Central L.A because I have many relatives and friends there. And I would guess they have as much, maybe more women in those areas as in Beverly Hills, the West Side or the beach cities, at least Latino and African American. Many even ride in the car by themselves. Trust me they rock it alongside the men. When a call comes in, whoever's the closest responds.

              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Let's say that most of the men worked in more violent areas or with more violent people, you would expect them to have more cases of excessive force.
              Again I understand your point. But just because a sworn officer of the law works in a "violent" area of the city as you describe it, doesn't give him the right (or temporary pass) to use excessive force. At least that's what the law he swore to uphold says. That's the attitude many rougue cops (maybe even Grand Juries) have, I'm afraid. Believe it or not most Police officers work all or most of their careers in violent neighborhoods and have never had to use excessive force.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                I understand your point. But I haven't seen any evidence of it. I don't live in but I go to some of the most violent areas of Los Angeles, i.e Compton, Watts, South Central L.A because I have many relatives and friends there. And I would guess they have as much, maybe more women in those areas as in Beverly Hills, the West Side or the beach cities, at least Latino and African American. Many even ride in the car by themselves. Trust me they rock it alongside the men. When a call comes in, whoever's the closest responds.
                I wasn't talking about particular women. SURE there are women there. But how are they distributed. And if they have a male partner, how do they work together?

                Again I understand your point. But just because a sworn officer of the law works in a "violent" area of the city as you describe it, doesn't give him the right (or temporary pass) to use excessive force. At least that's what the law he swore to uphold says. That's the attitude many rougue cops (maybe even Grand Juries) have, I'm afraid. Believe it or not most Police officers work all or most of their careers in violent neighborhoods and have never had to use excessive force.
                Excessive force by its nature should NEVER be used. That is why it is called excessive. But let's face it, it is more likely to happen with hostile people and THEY are more likely to be in hostile areas.

                Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      GIVE ME A BREAK! How many women COULD use excessive force? How many women are in such situations? How many are in ANY such situations? And then there is a question as to how the situations would be prosecuted. Comparing things like this just doesn't work. Frankly, I can't remember a female officer stopping me, though several males have.

      Steve
      LMAO - yeah. You give ME a break. You wanna go at it. I could put your butt on the ground in about 2 flat seconds, and just take my time making sure you didn't wanna get up again. One of the things that give a small woman with some training the upper hand is that men often think like this. Women are in self defense situations extremely often. They are raised with it.

      This is also one feature that makes a person who's been stopped less likely to make moves that are violent, too. There isn't as much fear of a woman as there is a man. Some people are killed because of fear reactions to police.

      Think about it for a minute. Who traditionally socializes the species? Who should have more success with dealing with another human without the need of violence? Women also get bit by animals only a small fraction as often as men do.

      Then we have the bully syndrome that entices a lot of low IQ trolls into the police force. People with badges often get away with unspeakable horrors. That's pretty attractive to those who are addicted to brute force.

      I've been stopped by women before - once in CO I was stopped by a female cop and we ended up sitting on the roof of my car gaffawing like we were drunk. She just had a sense of humor. Period.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I think it's an interesting question.

        Women grow up physically weaker than most men. A few women can strut and kick shins and some can fight like gang members - and are proud of it.

        Most of us learn "leverage" - whether moving furniture or getting others (including bigmen) to do what we want. We don't have an "auto fight" reaction because we KNOW we don't have the strength to follow it through. We have persistence and problem solving skills.

        FORCE is not the 'go to' position for most women faced with a problem. It's usually a last resort.

        Women may seem less threatening than male cops - the old "don't hurt a woman" theme might be in play. They may have more patience in listening or negotiating a solution.

        Maybe it's as simple as dispatchers sending men when it seems brute strength might be needed for someone who has resisted arrest in the past or is exceptionally large or strong.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        LMAO - yeah. You give ME a break. You wanna go at it. I could put your butt on the ground in about 2 flat seconds, and just take my time making sure you didn't wanna get up again. One of the things that give a small woman with some training the upper hand is that men often think like this. Women are in self defense situations extremely often. They are raised with it.
        First of all, you don't really know me, or how I am. I didn't say ANYTHING against you or your gender. I was just taking umbrage at a hit against MY gender. But 2 flat seconds is an awfully big claim.

        This is also one feature that makes a person who's been stopped less likely to make moves that are violent, too. There isn't as much fear of a woman as there is a man. Some people are killed because of fear reactions to police.
        YEP, but you just started to show where I was RIGHT!!!!! REGARDLESS of your gender, or ability, people may have a different perception and react differently. The standard police position is that THEY were pushed by the OTHER party's reactions! Whether brown, Martin, or the latest guy, it all comes down to THAT!

        Think about it for a minute. Who traditionally socializes the species? Who should have more success with dealing with another human without the need of violence? Women also get bit by animals only a small fraction as often as men do.
        I would be more likely to agree with that if I hadn't met so many women that WEREN'T "sugar and spice"!

        Then we have the bully syndrome that entices a lot of low IQ trolls into the police force. People with badges often get away with unspeakable horrors. That's pretty attractive to those who are addicted to brute force.
        I certainly can't disagree with THAT, and most likely ARE men, but NOT ALL are!

        I've been stopped by women before - once in CO I was stopped by a female cop and we ended up sitting on the roof of my car gaffawing like we were drunk. She just had a sense of humor. Period.
        I've been that way with some MEN! You may THINK all men are mean, biased, etc... but it isn't true. As to my reference about the old nursery rhyme? I NEVER liked the part about "Snips and snails and puppy dog tails", but I DO wish that more females were like the "sugar and spice". And NO, I DON'T mean defenseless, submissive, etc... I just mean nice, understanding, sympathetic. As you said, it SHOULD be the norm.

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        I've been stopped by women before - once in CO I was stopped by a female cop and we ended up sitting on the roof of my car gaffawing like we were drunk. She just had a sense of humor. Period.
        Hi Sal. I don't want to drag this interesting chat off course but I have this mental image and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. How exactly did you and the police officer get onto the roof and which one of you suggested doing so?

        I'm just thinking if I got stopped in my car by any gender of police person, started chatting amicably to the officer then asked him/her if they'd like to sit on my car roof with me, I'd be in hand cuffs before I could even offer them a leg up.

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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          I'm just thinking if I got stopped in my car by any gender of police person, started chatting amicably to the officer then asked him/her if they'd like to sit on my car roof with me, I'd be in hand cuffs before I could even offer them a leg up.
          This is probably where you're better off with a car with a much lower roof.


          .
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            This is probably where you're better off with a car with a much lower roof.


            .
            Yes I saw that earlier. Man of many talents that Ron fellow is.

            Even so, how about just leaning against the car? It's where they went from having a chat to "Hey officer, lets hop on the roof of my car to carry on this conversation" that I can't quite get my head around.

            I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just can't work out how it happened.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Lady cop walks into a bar with a duck on her shoulder. Bartender says "Hey, where did you get the pig?" Lady cop says, "It's a duck" to which the bartender responds, "I was talking to the duck."

              Ba-da-boom.

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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by falik View Post

                thanks you for the information..
                No worries Falik. Great post too.

                Just like your other six posts which are either "thanks you for the information" and "Thanks for sharing".

                Brilliant stuff, well done. The forum needs more live wires like you.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  KUDOS to mods! They are starting to ban some of these trolls.
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    • Profile picture of the author CJLBW
      What ARE you thinking?

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      GIVE ME A BREAK! How many women COULD use excessive force? How many women are in such situations? How many are in ANY such situations?
      ALL of them. They're armed! They COULD do as males do: see you walking down the street, put a bullet into your head and continuing pouring bullets into your body. Female officers are generally in the SAME or similar SITUATIONS in every shift. You might then consider your own death to be a result of "excessive force?"
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  • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post


    Why Aren't Women Police Officers Using Excessive Force?
    You got your answer off Steve. What a daft, pointless question.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Back when I wanted to be a cop and went through the application process, I learned of some research showing that women cops handle situations with more humor and people skills so they do not escalate.
    It is opposite of what you said. It is because they do not usually have the same physical strength as men.

    Heck, I worked as a doorman and I am only 5''9". Sometimes I was the only doorman on duty with a crowd of 300 or so. I learned to keep an eye on potential trouble makers and the leader, the one who appeared to be the most sober and reasonable. Sure enough, something starts happening, I go to that person and reason with him to get the trouble out of there. Another thing I learned is that you don't touch a belligerent person if you don't have to because that will escalate the situation. I could get this local called Gavin out of the bar by myself by talking to him. On my night off, it took 3 guys to forcibly get him out because somebody touched him - it's a sign of disrespect.

    On the other hand, you have to look at how many female officers are on the force in any given city - and at what times they are on duty, and how officers are dispatched to a call, etc.

    5 of 53 in Ferguson are female: Where Are the Women Police in Ferguson? (The article goes on to talk about how women talk to de-escalate and men are more likely to use force to control a situation because of their upbringing through sports.)

    Even if there are a lot of women on a force, there are still substantially more men on the force.
    More men on a call. More male officers handling the suspect(s). (I suspect making the female officers go into the background during a rough call.) More male officers getting multiples of excessive force charges against them - continually or just at one event.

    Suppose you have two counts of excessive force or violations of civil rights on each officer at one
    event. You probably have 5 male officers and one female - so males have ten counts and females have two counts.

    Even so, how they handle situations could be improved for sure. In all sorts of instances.
    I wrote on another post how cops in Oklahoma don't even approach a car they pull over.
    They stay back and issue instructions by loudspeaker and observe all occupants of the car
    and then talk to the people they need to talk to when it is safer to do so...

    And then, some people should not even make it onto a police force because they are too
    hair trigger.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - I don't have to "know" you. I know your health, can relatively figure your size and condition from the content of your posts. How do you think NSA builds profiles? Two seconds might be a little overkill -- it only takes a fraction of a second to deliver the hit. Conversely to what men believe - the bigger the assailant is in comparison to the would be victim - the better the hit can be delivered squarely.

    And - I didn't say women were all "sugar and spice" -- I said they socialize the species and have developed a better innate ability to cope with most people. There are instances of psychopaths that aren't going to be dealt with no matter who's doing the dealing, though. That still remains a factor no matter what we do or who's in the uniform.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve - I don't have to "know" you. I know your health, can relatively figure your size and condition from the content of your posts. How do you think NSA builds profiles? Two seconds might be a little overkill -- it only takes a fraction of a second to deliver the hit. Conversely to what men believe - the bigger the assailant is in comparison to the would be victim - the better the hit can be delivered squarely.

      And - I didn't say women were all "sugar and spice" -- I said they socialize the species and have developed a better innate ability to cope with most people. There are instances of psychopaths that aren't going to be dealt with no matter who's doing the dealing, though. That still remains a factor no matter what we do or who's in the uniform.
      OK, FIRST of all, you may be VERY wrong, and a lot can change in weeks. But say you were right. Say I were someone that weighed 600 pounds(I don't), and say I couldn't make it 20 feet(I certainly can), and couldn't lift 10 pounds to save my life(I certainly can), but let's say I couldn't. How would that have ANYTHING to do with someone like say Arnold in his heyday(245 pounds multiple mr Olympia, that was presumably in good shape)? I mean you made your statement out to be like you could likewise beat ANY male. And I will be the FIRST to say that I never even CONSIDERED becoming a police officer, and one reason was certainly the potential for a lot of physical exertion. I would want to be one of the best ones, and not someone that simply waits, etc.... Not that that would be without the potential for such exertion ALSO.

      As for my bleeding problem, that would just make me angrier and more likely to want to get it done ASAP. After all, even standing still, it could take HOURS to sieze up, and it would probably heal better if I keep moving. The person that hit me would have even less of an idea of the level of damage than I would.

      And YEAH, I may be bigger than you, but I am not as wide as I think you imagine. So I may be a good target, but not THAT much better.

      As for the socialization? I have seen some HORRIBLE examples of that. HECK, I was once sitting in my seat minding my own business when a woman kept pushing her husband to invade my space and effectively damage my computer. Luckily, her HUSBAND had more sense. I was trying to make sure it wouldn't happen regardless, but I was LIVID. I have seen women pushing people to fight and WORSE! And of course, some women HAVE fought, etc... Remember that woman that recently hit a guy in the head with her high heeled shoes? And they were SHOCKED when he struck back. STILL, he didn't attack her, and was restrained in his defense.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I love the idea of every cop having a camera on them and rolling at all times. Then if their camera isn't rolling ,then the perp gets the benefit of the doubt.

    As far as men cops using excessive force, it's usually because they have to deal with other men using excessive force themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]
    So the million dollar question is ... why don't women Police Officers feel the need to use excessive force?
    It's an interesting question, that I haven't heard before. But it makes perfect sense. Women have more advanced social skills....and less testosterone.

    And I would think most police violence can be avoided, with simply talking the person into compliance.....maybe listening a little. Men have that skill too, but sometimes it's just more efficient to be physical.

    And, I hate to say this, but dominating and aggressive personalities are attracted to police work. Just like the military, certain types of people are attracted to the job.

    I'm also guessing that smaller policemen are more aggressive than large men that are cops. It's just a guess.

    Anyway, the figures are surprising.

    Added a minute later. I posted before I read Kay's post. "Great minds" and all that.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I think it's a combination of nature and nurture. Testosterone and men being brought up where violence, strength, killing people in wars, fighting are all acceptable and desirable traits. Not all men are like that. I've met some very gentle men, but the aggressive thugs like the idea of carrying lethal weapons and having the power of life and death over others and would be drawn to the police force. That was George Zimmerman's wildest dream ... to become a cop.

    The police force in the US is now well known to use excessive force and employ police brutality. Arming and equipping them with military gear just re-enforces that. It's time for the US Attorney General to step do an overhaul of police forces across this country and for murderous cops to be indicted and dumped in prison for their crimes.

    I am personally very sick of the police killing unarmed people of any color.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Because they don't wanna break a nail.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Because they don't wanna break a nail.
        You could at least put a lol emoticon after a condescending statement like that. I'm sure that if you look around, you can find women who have a lot more substance and accomplishments than growing or having fake nails put on. Here's just a few.

        At about 7:30 p.m. on December 28, 2010, Arlington (TX) Police Officer Jillian Smith was dispatched to administer a domestic violence report. When she arrived at the site of the dispute, Officer Smith discovered that a male suspect had fled the scene, and she began taking a statement from the female victim, who was accompanied by her 11-year-old daughter.

        While she was still on the scene, the male suspect returned, armed with a handgun. Instinctively, Officer Smith swiftly leapt toward the young girl to protect her. Then the suspect unleashed a fury of gunshots, fatally wounding Officer Smith before he shot and killed the female victim -- his ex-girlfriend -- and then killed himself.

        The young girl, protected by Officer Smith, was able to escape unharmed. Officer Smith, 24, joined the Arlington Police Department in February 2010. She graduated from the academy in August of that year, and finished her field training just 15 days before she was killed.

        "She will be remembered as a true hero, one who sacrificed her own young life to save an even younger one," Arlington (TX) Police Chief Theron Bowman said before hundreds of mourners at a Vigil held for Officer Smith.
        National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: America
        Deputy Jennifer Fulford-Salvano of the Orange County (FL) SO had been on the force for just three years when she was put in a situation where her training and instinct took over- saving both her life and those of three children she was protecting. Her heroic actions recently earned her the title of "IACP Officer of the Year." In an interview with PoliceOne, she shared her amazing story.

        It was shortly before 8 a.m. May 5, 2004. Fulford-Salvano and a trainee, Jason Gainor, were on patrol when they received a suspicious incident call in an adjoining zone. An 8-year-old had called from a cell phone saying that strangers were in the house with his mom. Gainor was intrigued, so the two of them headed over to assist the primary responders, Deputies Kevin Curry and Dwayne Martin.

        The residential area was known for heavy crime. They arrived at the only house on the block with burglar bars on the windows.

        "They were trying to keep people out and we didn't know why," Fulford-Salvano told PoliceOne.

        Curry and Martin were on the front lawn talking to a black female. When Fulford-Salvano walked up the female started talking to her. Fulford-Salvano assumed it was because the woman felt more comfortable talking to a female officer.

        The woman told her there were three men in house and she didn't know what they wanted or why they were there. She wouldn't give any more details.

        The situation seemed suspicious. The woman gestured toward a two-car garage that had a door open, revealing a gold minivan. Suddenly, the woman started crying, "My babies! My babies!"

        Although none of the officers knew it at the time, the woman was hiding something that would later land her in prison. The men had come to take the 341 pounds of marijuana and $60,000 in cash the woman had in her home. Her husband was in Jamaica and the men must have figured the house would make for an easy heist. The three men had already begun loading the drugs before the police arrived on the scene.

        The officers told the woman to wait by the street. The primary unit decided to back off and separate to check out different parts of the house exterior, but Fulford-Salvano, the only officer at the call without children, was worried about the kids.

        "I was trying to get to the kids. Everyone else was saying 'pull back, wait for K-9,'" she said. "But all [the intruders] had to do was put a hand out and put down the garage door." Fulford-Salvano didn't know exactly what kind of situation these kids were trapped in, but she knew it wasn't good and she was gravely concerned for their safety.

        She entered the garage through the open door and crouched down on the driver's side of the van. She could see two-year-old twins but she couldn't see the little boy who made call. The door handle was locked so she couldn't get in.

        Suddenly she heard male voices and three to four shots from house. Stuck in the garage with no where to go, she hit ground and yelled, 'Shots fired!'

        A black male, George Jenkins, came around the back of the garage, positioned himself behind the van and began firing out through the garage. Then he spotted Fulford-Salvano and began firing directly at her. The deputy returned fire and ducked back behind the van. Jenkins fell against the garage wall.

        Fulford-Salvano then heard movement from the front of van. Another man, John Dzibinski, began to fire at her from the hood. She fired back and began oscillating between firing at Jenkins and firing at Dzibinski. She emptied her magazine and reloaded.

        "I kept on thinking, 'I need to keep them away from me,'" she recalled.

        The last time she leaned out to fire at Jenkins, she landed a head shot, but not before one of his rounds hit her in the right shoulder. She didn't notice the injury until she was done firing. With her right, dominate hand out of commission, she picked the gun up with her left hand.

        At this point, Dzibinski popped out again from the front of the van and Fulford-Salvano fired, hitting him in the head as well. He would be pulled off life support a week later.

        Knowing for sure that Dzibinski was done fighting, but not sure the status of the other gunman, Fulford-Salvano took a minute to check on her own injuries. When she looked at her body she saw blood coming from lots of different places. She knew she needed to concentrate, control her breathing and focus on staying conscious. She had learned what to do to prevent shock, and she didn't know if the guy in the front was going to come up again.

        Unbeknownst to her, Jenkins, who was fatally wounded, had stumbled out into the driveway and collapsed.

        She then heard Deputy Curry call her name - Jennifer - which struck her as strange because everyone calls her Jen. He and Gainor came into the garage and grabbed her, pulled her to the end of the driveway. and with the help of five or six other officers, ran her to an ambulance waiting down the street.

        "We're all taught that you have to believe you are going to win, not die," Fulford-Salvano said. "But it is one thing to have someone telling you that, another to hear from someone who had been through it. I remember thinking, 'This garage is not the last thing I am going to see.'
        Fla. officer takes 10 rounds to save children, her own life
        Fort Hood, Texas (CNN) -- The police officer who ended the Fort Hood massacre by shooting the suspect is known as the enforcer on her street, a "tough woman" who patrolled her neighborhood and once stopped burglars at her house.
        'Tough woman' cop hailed Fort Hood hero - CNN.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          You could at least put a lol emoticon after a condescending statement like that. I'm sure that if you look around, you can find women who have a lot more substance and accomplishments than growing or having fake nails put on. Here's just a few.
          I thought the "lol" was implied.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Because they don't wanna break a nail.
        Steven;

        My God! You insensitive jerk! WTF are you thinking...I mean WTF!?


        I am so angry right now, I can't even type. Watch;
        hgny..whet...frrrt.

        See? I told you I was too angry to type.

        Now, go sit in the corner..until you learn to be more sensitive.

        Claude "Mister Sensitivity" Whitacre


        Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

        women have feelings and emotions, men don't.

        -Chris
        Women have hands. Men don't.

        Wow, saying silly things really is fun.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    women have feelings and emotions, men don't.

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post


    You would think the stats would be the opposite. Women are smaller for the most part. Physically weaker for the most part. And should feel more threatened or prone to use excessive force as opposed to men. Right?

    So the million dollar question is ... why don't women Police Officers feel the need to use excessive force?
    Found several interesting things about this topic. First, this...

    Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.
    Source: National Center For Women and Policing

    And this directly addresses the OPs question:

    In reality, the evidence supports those who assert that women are well-suited in many instances to deal with potentially violent situations in ways their male counterparts are not.
    The article mention's Freud's assertion that violence is one of the basic male impulses. And then contrasts with this:

    Women on the other hand, are less likely to act on violent impulses. According to researcher Anne Campbell, women generally have a greater fear of physical harm; and during conflicts, women usually adopt resolution strategies that involve lower risks of physical harm than their male counterparts.
    Why is there such a discrepancy in the use of force between male and female officers? According to criminologist James Messerschmidt, "...sociologists and criminologists have known for quite a while that there is a relationship between masculinity and crime...
    The article also suggests that male officers focus on skills related to physical activity such as physical conditioning, self defense skills and other related skills not generally considered intellectual skills such as negotiating skills, etc; while women officers focus on the latter.

    And this...

    According to a Washington Times report, the communication and persuasion skills exhibited by female police officers are easier and more instinctive than the immediate threat and/or use of physical force.
    There's much more information in the article:

    Gender and Excessive Force Complaints | Hendon Publishing


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Where's Rhonda Rousey when you need her?
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    Plus how to get my Print on Demand Treasure Maps for FREE
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    Women should stay in the kitchen IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

      Women should stay in the kitchen IMO.
      I couldn't agree more!

      Eating all of the scrumptious dishes her man prepares for her.

      There is nothing hotter than a guy cooking and serving up mouthwatering food fit for the gods!


      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        I couldn't agree more!

        Eating all of the scrumptious dishes her man prepares for her.

        There is nothing hotter than a guy cooking and serving up mouthwatering food fit for the gods!


        Terra
        I always fancied a woman doing the dishes in tight pants or a short dress.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    What would the definition of excessive force be? And then what percentage of the women on the force could actually fulfill that definition?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kev Stevenson
    Those stats do say something tho'... You can argue the detail - but it appears that certain forms/styles of policing result in fewer people getting hurt.
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