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I'm quite gobsmacked at how quiet WF has become. The main board used to be a veritable beehive of activity, and not so long ago either. A quick look at the stats for the forum as a whole - as I'm posting this - shows 13,000 people on the forum (2,300 members) Compare that to just 18 months ago (at roughly this hour) when there was a magnificent 161,000 users jostling about in the place.

As I look at the OTF stats just now they show 193 users, with probably not many of them actual members. And when I look at the threads on page 1 of the OTF they cover 3 days! Yes, that's 3 WHOLE DAYS!! Gone are the days when you could post a new thread and within 20 minutes or so you'd have a dozen or many more replies to scan through. And gone are the days when if your thread wasn't interesting enough it would drop off the first page into oblivion within a few hours.

Being on the forum now can sometimes be somewhat soul destroying as in the majority of instances you'll be hanging about with only a sporadic poster here and there to keep you company . . . sometimes for hours.

Sadly I think the halcyon days are gone forever. I've known dozens of major forums hit a peak, sometimes sustained for many years, but most inevitably taper off and eventually die a death - for whatever reason.

There used to be such camaraderie here, and participating in the main forum used to be - for the main part - both informative and great experience. We've still got a few good'uns left here and there's still decent humour to be found in the inimitable OTF, but the funeral march proceeds onwards regardless, I fear, and members are dropping like flies. Ain't that a shame


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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Ya know what's really sadder? I think with a joint effort, we could save the place. Just not seeing that there might be much will left to do so.
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    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Ya know what's really sadder? I think with a joint effort, we could save the place. Just not seeing that there might be much will left to do so.
      Joint as in who Sal ... the over 100,000 or so idiots they recruited as "members" who are primarily spammers, link droppers and other non contributing members or the who as in the tiny handful of people who fled to the Off Topic forum, or all the affiliates of Warrior Plus and JVZoo that come here less because of War Pay, or all the advertisers who spent big bucks here who have found greener pastures, or who as in the masses who did make intelligent contributions regularly that just said screw it and left?

      While some say the WF was in decline previously .... it most certainly was not sinking like a stone, as it is now. A look at it's Alexa rating tells a story, but I'm sure better, more accurate analytics tell the story even better.

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        While some say the WF was in decline previously .... it most certainly was not sinking like a stone, as it is now.
        I agree and for the reason you stated...the influx. Theres not a thing you can do management wise or modding wise to stop this onslaught except start putting impediments in the way of signing up (paid membership or whatever). So I don't put the blame like some do with management or modding except wherever that traffic came from it aint where the bright bulbs were stored. They don't read, many of them think they already know it all (but all they do is ask questions and make one line or just horribly wrong posts) and frankly I strongly suspect a good portion of them are underage.

        I wish many of them were spammers. Those can be reported and the mods are doing a decent job of cleaning up. These new members participate but have little to offer yet are giving advice like old sages. Its participating members wrecking the forums. I am one of those who say its been going on for a while but theres no denying the recent influx is making it happen quicker and its driving good members away. SO its backfired. You have more members but the quality of the new members makes it such that less and less people want to talk with them. Its like a dinner party where you invite the neighborhood kids to have a pool party at the same time - the adults eventually get disgusted and leave.

        Where I am sure I will disagree is that it has to do with policies because policies don't explain the influx (you could argue driving away members but not attracting new bad ones). Either FL's prexisting base don't make good forum posters or some advertising was too successful in attracting the wrong crowd.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Online right now:
          Currently Active Users: 11863 (1872 members and 9991 guests)

          Online one year ago today:
          Currently Active Users: 23093 (2177 members and 20916 guests)

          with a joint effort, we could save the place
          I think that is wishful thinking.

          Mike -
          I think there are a few things. This forum is English based and in the past if you could not use the language, you could keep posting here. No longer true. In the past, if you posted one liner after one liner - you were gone. No longer true.

          There are so many one line posts - and several self appointed 'experts' who argue with each other and with what anyone posts - who jump in to explain "what the OP meant" as if they are part of forum management. Maybe they are management - only a few mods are identified. Maybe they just get away with bad behavior now that wasn't allowed before.

          Two years ago people starting repetitive threads would have been stopped - people posting only one liners would have been gone - people who could not make themselves understood in English would have been prohibited from starting thread after thread.

          I think what's happening is a natural progression of changes. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the forum EARNS more money than it did two years ago - I'd be very surprised if that could be maintained for two more years.

          One of the details that really bothers me here these days is the number of members who CLAIM to be from the US - and are blatantly lying about it. Nothing good will come of that.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I think there are a few things. This forum is English based and in the past if you could not use the language, you could keep posting here. No longer true. In the past, if you posted one liner after one liner - you were gone. No longer true.
            actually (and I am REALLY not interested in getting into another anti management/new mods debate. I was only agreeing with the influx part of Suzanne's post) but that isn't true. Due to a lot of Indians being involved in SEO the SEO section has had Indian posters for years many of whom you could tell can write a little English (and some who couldn't) but cannot read it very well. In addition SEOs (black hat versions) are particularly given to one liners to leave a sig link and those are all over the place dating back years. Perhaps they were deleted a bit more but no many of them remained and are still there

            What we agree with is the self appointed experts who have little respect for people actually answering questions and doing it for years. Thats what I was getting at. I'd point directly to a thread for Exhibit A but it would probably be flame baiting the OP. He doesn't add anything but questions to the forums and then in his latest post accused long time members of a conspiracy to give the wrong answers (you know the teenage stage where all adults are clueless or suspect) . This is the kind of ignorance that really kills discussions. You don't know something but you act like you do.

            Sure you can delete one liners but massive ignorance from so many people is a freight train and theres no way you are going to mod that out of the forums.

            I know..I know... theres a strong sentiment among a certain group that the old step mom did all things well compared to the new but go get her back and she wont be able to make 100,000 ignorant people smart. Besides which and I know this will annoy some ....the WSO MMO mentality corrupts everything. The new step mom didn't invent that. The old one did.. You can't have serious business discussions where the bait and sugar to come and discuss is

            Make $10,0000 in One Month Sitting on Your Couch Eating Doritos. I Did it! Let me Show You How For Just $7.

            So FL attracted more people to the bait yes but the bait was set long ago and once the most visited forum here is about those kinds of offers you are just kidding yourself you are getting a high quality audience to discuss things with in the the other forums.

            I see no way to stop the freight train while anyone can signup for free. Every idiot on the Internet is looking for an easy cheap way to push a button and have cash pop out. Do a good job of telling them here is where they can find it and sure ...they turn up in droves. FL just seems to be a bit better getting the word out to them.
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          • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Online right now:
            Currently Active Users: 11863 (1872 members and 9991 guests)

            Online one year ago today:
            Currently Active Users: 23093 (2177 members and 20916 guests)

            I think that is wishful thinking.

            Mike -
            I think there are a few things. This forum is English based and in the past if you could not use the language, you could keep posting here. No longer true. In the past, if you posted one liner after one liner - you were gone. No longer true.

            There are so many one line posts - and several self appointed 'experts' who argue with each other and with what anyone posts - who jump in to explain "what the OP meant" as if they are part of forum management. Maybe they are management - only a few mods are identified. Maybe they just get away with bad behavior now that wasn't allowed before.

            Two years ago people starting repetitive threads would have been stopped - people posting only one liners would have been gone - people who could not make themselves understood in English would have been prohibited from starting thread after thread.

            I think what's happening is a natural progression of changes. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the forum EARNS more money than it did two years ago - I'd be very surprised if that could be maintained for two more years.

            One of the details that really bothers me here these days is the number of members who CLAIM to be from the US - and are blatantly lying about it. Nothing good will come of that.
            Agree with everything you're saying, Kay except the above in bold. My guess would be that revenues are way down. When have we ever seen a banner posted by management telling us there's banner space available? There used to be a waiting list to put a banner up. Forum activity is way down too.

            I was on the main board the other day and reported a handful of meaningless threads that existed only for sig exposure. And the replies they attracted were pretty much the same, self promotion all over the place. Not a single one got removed. In the past I know these posts would have been gone in 10 minutes. It looks like they feel that any post is better than no posts. Not sure there is a remedy for any of it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

              In the past I know these posts would have been gone in 10 minutes.
              Yes, absolutely. The "culture" and "climate" have changed. Maybe irreversibly.

              Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

              I was on the main board the other day and reported a handful of meaningless threads that existed only for sig exposure. And the replies they attracted were pretty much the same, self promotion all over the place. Not a single one got removed.
              Me too, by the way.

              The moderators simply will not remove most of those. (And - not being experienced internet marketers, or even experienced WF members, themselves - perhaps it's really difficult for them to learn to judge what you and I see at a glance?).

              I know it sounds "a real stretch", but I honestly suspect that even the forum's more senior staff genuinely don't appreciate that that self-promotional crap (rather than the spambots, for example) is what's driving so many longstanding members away.

              And if you tell them, I think they just don't really believe you, but think it's "a fuss about nothing much".

              That's really not a promising situation.


              .
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


        That's really insteresting and a long way from: "pre-eminent marketplace and community for Internet marketing professionals across the globe. Ranked by Alexa as the 225th most visited website in the world, the site also ranks in the top 150 websites in the United States and United Kingdom, and top 100 in Australia by traffic" as stated in their press release at the time of purchase.

        The War Room is a long way from: "an elite private discussion group where the world's best marketers share their experiences and learnings".

        Here's the reality: 2014-12-22_0742 - MarkHess's library

        Cracking 350 according to Alexa in India is quite an accomplishment. Now if there was only a way to gain a larger share of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and Nigerian traffic...

        But when the WF sends out misleading emails touting things like "The Warrior Forum Top WSOs of 2014": http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...al-offers.html

        And two of the products on the list, their sales pages are not even hosted on the Warrior Forum, and none of them went through any type of quality control as implied. (It was just a few top sellers from WarriorPayments.)

        No wonder a lot of the contributing audience left and hasn't come back.

        There's always been talk of this "vision". If it's more of the same thinking that brought the WF to this point, then it should be quite interesting to say the least.

        A TON of great advice was given to them when they purchased the forum from experienced, longtime members, sellers, affiliates, and moderators.

        The vast majority of that advice was totally ignored.

        And if FL cares about profit, if this keeps trending like it is, I can't think of too many people eager to run paid advertising to a bunch of Tier 2 - 3 countries.

        It's a shame the WF has gotten to this point. I always enjoyed coming here and met some great people over the years. But the main discussion area at this point is almost unreadable and makes a lot of people not want to take part.

        At least that's the way I see it...
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

          A TON of great advice was given to them when they purchased the forum from experienced, longtime members, sellers, affiliates, and moderators.

          The vast majority of that advice was totally ignored.
          And is still being ignored, on an almost daily basis.

          Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

          No wonder a lot of the contributing audience left and hasn't come back.
          Indeed. They bought the place. They paid for it. That's their right. But - as the title says - "Ain't that a shame?".

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


            Indeed. They bought the place. They paid for it. That's their right. But - as the title says - "Ain't that a shame?".

            .
            It is a shame...

            I agree it's their right, but it's more like "they made their bed now they have to lay in it " in terms of ROI.

            All of this was (insert 90+ percentage figure here) preventable. In fact, right after they purchased, a lot of members in good standing came back at first so there was massive opportunity there.

            It's almost like they took a look at DigitalPoint and said to themselves "we should be more like them".
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

              In fact, right after they purchased, a lot of members in good standing came back at first so there was massive opportunity there.
              Absolutely. Enormous opportunity. This is one of the many ironies: they actually started off here with great goodwill, support and promise.

              .
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
          Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post


          And if FL cares about profit, if this keeps trending like it is, I can't think of too many people eager to run paid advertising to a bunch of Tier 2 - 3 countries.

          It's a shame the WF has gotten to this point. I always enjoyed coming here and met some great people over the years. But the main discussion area at this point is almost unreadable and makes a lot of people not want to take part...
          From an advertisers standpoint, thats all that matters. I see my ads on WF no longer produce anything like they used to. Tier 2 and 3 countries simply do not and cannot buy like Tier 1 countries... That India visitors now surpass US visitors to the WF probably would surprise most members.
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          Bruce
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Bruce NewMedia View Post

            From an advertisers standpoint, thats all that matters. I see my ads on WF no longer produce anything like they used to. Tier 2 and 3 countries simply do not and cannot buy like Tier 1 countries... That India visitors now surpass US visitors to the WF probably would surprise most members.
            _____
            Bruce
            Good to see you Bruce. Hearing this coming from you is a real eye opener but I guess not all that surprising.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Ya know what's really sadder? I think with a joint effort, we could save the place. Just not seeing that there might be much will left to do so.
      What did you have in mind? I posted some ideas a little while ago about how we could raise the level of conversation and improve things but there didn't seem to be much interest in doing so.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        What did you have in mind? I posted some ideas a little while ago about how we could raise the level of conversation and improve things but there didn't seem to be much interest in doing so.

        Mark
        Well, I was thinking that the long-term members could start posting stimulating threads and then just grouping up and talking around the idiot posters until the general crowd got the hang of it. However - I just went into the main forum yesterday. There were about 15 different "how do I start an IM business" posts - a couple "I want to be rich" type posts - and, of course, the "business" guy who wanted to know where to get quality articles written at a buck a pop.

        Um..........so...............................

        Never mind. DOA isn't always a bad thing.
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        Sal
        When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
        Beyond the Path

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        • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          I just went into the main forum yesterday. There were about 15 different "how do I start an IM business" posts - a couple "I want to be rich" type posts - and, of course, the "business" guy who wanted to know where to get quality articles written at a buck a pop.

          Um..........so...............................
          Yep. Completely mind numbing stuff. I rarely post in the main forum, or any sub-forum other than the OTF now as the quality has degenerated to such a degree that even a mildly informative or partially interesting conversation is almost impossible.

          The sad thing is that even though the user stats are down dramatically, the warning signs are everywhere, and there's been numerous threads of this ilk where seasoned members have vociferously expressed the gravest of concerns for the future of the forum, the new owners seem oblivious to it all. No changes that really matter and would make a difference are ever implemented.

          If I were a gambling man and odds were made available, I'd be rushing to place a large wedge of money on the ultimate demise of this place within a year or two . . . unless some really serious remedial action is taken NOW; not in a few months time when it will be too late. You can't drag a sinking horse from the quicksand once it's head has gone under, it's lungs are full of shit, and then expect it to recover as if nothing has happened.
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

            the quality has degenerated to such a degree that even a mildly informative or partially interesting conversation is almost impossible.
            That's not going to change until they get rid of all the preachers with coaching
            in their sig files.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

            The sad thing is that even though the user stats are down dramatically, the warning signs are everywhere, and there's been numerous threads of this ilk where seasoned members have vociferously expressed the gravest of concerns for the future of the forum, the new owners seem oblivious to it all.
            This.

            This single sentence more or less tells the whole sad story, for me.


            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            They removed a permanent ban from a member who was banned for not delivering and not honoring refund policy over and over and over again. Not just once, but numerous WSOs.

            I reported a member the other day that was permanently banned but snuck back in. He's still here, and that's after he sent me a threatening pm because I outed him as a previously banned person after he had the unmitigated gall to call Willie Crawford pure evil and a scammer.
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Apparently it's ok to insult long term successful Warriors like Willie Crawford with impunity, even when you're some wanna be marketer who has been here under 3 identities, (one permanently banned).
            The forum's administrators either don't know what's going on, and/or they just don't care. As people are increasingly saying, the longer this stuff goes on for, the more it looks like they just don't care. "Oblivious", as Positivenegative says, above.

            (I agree with you that that's not a reflection on the moderators doing their job.)


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            • Profile picture of the author onSubie
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              This.

              This single sentence more or less tells the whole sad story, for me.
              Every thread with complaints Alan or a new owner/manager comes in and says, "We weren't aware of these problems. We want to help. Please tell us exactly what the problems are."

              This is followed by detailed replies and screen shots showing the problems.

              Such as the new design not showing threads you participated in.

              Or the search function not working.

              Or the "view all posts by" not working.

              The response from Alan/mgt/WF is crickets.

              Then in the next thread they come in and say, "We weren't aware of these problems. We want to help. Please tell us exactly what the problems are."

              This is followed by the same detailed examples and the same screen shots.

              Again WF does nothing.

              How many times do the same problems need to be rehashed in detail before WF "gets" that they are problems.

              It isn't just the obvious problems and changing WF that drives people away, it is the complete lack of support and effort by WF to make any meaningful changes or improvements based on user feedback.

              The crappy new icons that hide which threads you are participating in is still especially irksome.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

                Then in the next thread they come in and say, "We weren't aware of these problems. We want to help. Please tell us exactly what the problems are."

                This is followed by the same detailed examples and the same screen shots.

                Again WF does nothing.
                I agree, Mahlon.

                I keep trying not to sound like I'm complaining about the moderators (because I'm not - they seem a really nice group of people who are "caught in the middle" and unable/not allowed to do much about the problems). But the management's answer has been "please be patient while we do our best" for month after month after month after month.

                Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

                How many times do the same problems need to be rehashed in detail before WF "gets" that they are problems.
                I don't think they will "get" it. I think they think we're making a fuss about things that don't matter much.

                Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

                It isn't just the obvious problems and changing WF that drives people away, it is the complete lack of support and effort by WF to make any meaningful changes or improvements based on user feedback.
                I agree completely.

                .
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    What I find fairly odd is how you can manage to increase membership by 100,000 or so with these results

    Main Internet Marketing Discussion Forum (1344 Viewing)
    Warrior Special Offers (2988 Viewing)
    Freemarket.com Discussion (5 Viewing)
    The War Room (42 Viewing)
    Warrior Ask Me Anything (WAMA) (8 Viewing)
    Search Engine Optimization (591 Viewing)
    Ad Networks (CPM/CPL, Display, SEM) (289 Viewing)
    Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM) (29 Viewing)
    Email Marketing (30 Viewing)
    Growth Hacking (8 Viewing)
    Social Media (223 Viewing)
    Conversion Rate Optimization (7 Viewing)
    Offline Marketing (143 Viewing)
    Mobile Marketing (49 Viewing)
    Copywriting (84 Viewing)
    eCommerce Sites, Wholesaling & Drop Shipping (109 Viewing)
    Mind Warriors (148 Viewing)
    Internet Marketing Product Reviews & Ratings (267 Viewing)
    Articles (33 Viewing)
    Member Contests & Challenges (3 Viewing)
    Warrior Book Club (3 Viewing)
    High Voltage Video Forum (4 Viewing)
    Programming (124 Viewing)
    Website Design (148 Viewing)
    Test Forum (6 Viewing)
    Best Online Resources (11 Viewing)
    Reciprocal Links (18 Viewing)
    Warrior Joint Ventures (20 Viewing)
    Off Topic Forum (151 Viewing)
    Suggestion Forum (1 Viewing)
    Local Meetups, Mastermind Groups and Warrior Events (3 Viewing
    Warrior Forum News (6 Viewing)
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      What I find fairly odd is how you can manage to increase membership by 100,000 or so with these results

      Main Internet Marketing Discussion Forum (1344 Viewing)
      Warrior Special Offers (2988 Viewing)
      Freemarket.com Discussion (5 Viewing)
      The War Room (42 Viewing)
      Warrior Ask Me Anything (WAMA) (8 Viewing)
      Search Engine Optimization (591 Viewing)
      Ad Networks (CPM/CPL, Display, SEM) (289 Viewing)
      Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM) (29 Viewing)
      Email Marketing (30 Viewing)
      Growth Hacking (8 Viewing)
      Social Media (223 Viewing)
      Conversion Rate Optimization (7 Viewing)
      Offline Marketing (143 Viewing)
      Mobile Marketing (49 Viewing)
      Copywriting (84 Viewing)
      eCommerce Sites, Wholesaling & Drop Shipping (109 Viewing)
      Mind Warriors (148 Viewing)
      Internet Marketing Product Reviews & Ratings (267 Viewing)
      Articles (33 Viewing)
      Member Contests & Challenges (3 Viewing)
      Warrior Book Club (3 Viewing)
      High Voltage Video Forum (4 Viewing)
      Programming (124 Viewing)
      Website Design (148 Viewing)
      Test Forum (6 Viewing)
      Best Online Resources (11 Viewing)
      Reciprocal Links (18 Viewing)
      Warrior Joint Ventures (20 Viewing)
      Off Topic Forum (151 Viewing)
      Suggestion Forum (1 Viewing)
      Local Meetups, Mastermind Groups and Warrior Events (3 Viewing
      Warrior Forum News (6 Viewing)
      You'd adjust the session timeout and stats would decrease to more recent / live results.

      ..and we don't know whether the new management have done exactly that.

      On second thoughts, they still seem like low numbers regardless...
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      What I find fairly odd is how you can manage to increase membership by 100,000 or so with these results

      Main Internet Marketing Discussion Forum (1344 Viewing)
      Warrior Special Offers (2988 Viewing)
      Freemarket.com Discussion (5 Viewing)
      The War Room (42 Viewing)
      Warrior Ask Me Anything (WAMA) (8 Viewing)
      Search Engine Optimization (591 Viewing)
      Ad Networks (CPM/CPL, Display, SEM) (289 Viewing)
      Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM) (29 Viewing)
      Email Marketing (30 Viewing)
      Growth Hacking (8 Viewing)
      Social Media (223 Viewing)
      Conversion Rate Optimization (7 Viewing)
      Offline Marketing (143 Viewing)
      Mobile Marketing (49 Viewing)
      Copywriting (84 Viewing)
      eCommerce Sites, Wholesaling & Drop Shipping (109 Viewing)
      Mind Warriors (148 Viewing)
      Internet Marketing Product Reviews & Ratings (267 Viewing)
      Articles (33 Viewing)
      Member Contests & Challenges (3 Viewing)
      Warrior Book Club (3 Viewing)
      High Voltage Video Forum (4 Viewing)
      Programming (124 Viewing)
      Website Design (148 Viewing)
      Test Forum (6 Viewing)
      Best Online Resources (11 Viewing)
      Reciprocal Links (18 Viewing)
      Warrior Joint Ventures (20 Viewing)
      Off Topic Forum (151 Viewing)
      Suggestion Forum (1 Viewing)
      Local Meetups, Mastermind Groups and Warrior Events (3 Viewing
      Warrior Forum News (6 Viewing)
      You didn't include the 99,999 spam profiles that will never get deleted even If they're banned.

      AKA, bean counting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I blame management - previous and current - in one way only. That is the focus on the marketplace aspect and losing/damaging the root which has always been the conversation.

    As the focus on the marketplace aspect grew, we started attracting the wrong crowd. The whole idea of a Warrior Special Offer was lost. For example, the original description language had something like "no junk offers accepted." But they were in ever increasing numbers.

    Everyone that was already here wanted to and was building an online business. But when the editorial control, for lack of a better description, went out the door the WSO forum filled up with junk and the quality and focus on the discussion went down.

    When it got out of control many of us complained bitterly about income claims, about quality of WSOs, about the way the forum was heading, and about building the discussion back up.

    Every time, most all of that conversation was turned away with one of two blanket statements/ideas: 1. We can't control what people post. We are like a newspaper that can't go and check under the hood of every car that is sold. Buyer beware. Or 2. If you see something report it or post in the thread. Other than that our hands are tied.

    Of course #1 is just simply not true and I told them several times. They have a mod check the offer, for example. What exactly are they checking for? It sure isn't quality. This isn't like inspecting boats. It's like Clickbank does, at least on the first product you list. They say give us the download link and let us take a quick look. Clickbank makes a lot less than the WF does just based on listing prices so how can they do some QC but the WF can't (yes I know CB makes a percentage too but that's not the point)?

    Then they took away the "don't break other company's TOS" rule. So while on the one had they were complaining about all the spammers that were using automated tools posting here, we started selling the things too. They don't like fake reviews or fake accounts here but they sell them and their ilk here. Talk about a contradictory situation.

    That was going on previously. Now the new management has promised for weeks to tighten up on the WSO forum and they simply have not. It's been weeks. It's been promised several times. It hasn't happened. For whatever reason, they are dragging their feet. Just today they approved a WSO by a user caught red-handed selling stolen stuff before. They gave him a little ban and let him come back and sell again. Now Daniel has promised to stop that for the future but somehow it's not all working right yet.

    The problem is that when they cut off income claims and other hype filled junk, if they ever do, it will dry up even faster for them. So they let it stay - just like Allen did. As long as they let it stay the discussion, the quality, the feeling, and the knowledge will leave.

    Too many people have been burned here and have pled and pled and pled for something to be done and it has been ignored. Previously and currently.

    This "I got one little tidbit so I'm happy" crap is just that - crap and everyone knows it. I like some of the old mods. I read their stuff. I respect them. But I believe they would NOT promote most of the stuff in the WSO forum to their own valuable list in this same general market. They know better. So why they let it happen here, I'm not sure.

    The quality won't come back until the quality of the discussion AND the marketplace is controlled/improved. It won't come back until people feel like this is a place they can trust and not a den of thieves selling junk.

    Everyone that encourages people to write WSOs, for example, when it's obvious that they don't know what they are doing is as much to blame as the WSO sellers. I recently participated in a thread where a guy said he wasn't making money but wanted to do a traffic WSO and several Warriors encouraged him to do so. Why?

    Quality can come back if we start posting reviews instead of being afraid of hurting someone's business. It's kind of like Social Security - a lot of people are against it except for the fact that their own mom is on it. In other words, we don't want to post a real review with the cons because we don't want someone to slam our own future WSO.

    I think quality would go up if some of the smart people in the OT section would spend more time upstairs. Can't complain about the conversation and the forum going downhill if you aren't willing to help yourself. Some of you say that the OT forum is the only reason you come here. At the rate things are going there won't be a place to come to.

    In other words telling idiots to not be idiots isn't going to work. What will work is cutting off or down the reason they are coming here by QCing the marketplace (before and after posting), and raising the level of conversation. We don't need people to blatantly point out in a negative way that so and so is an idiot, but we do need to guide the conversation if we can. Otherwise it's just idiots that are posting. We need to cut out ruining other sites so that ours quits getting ruined. No more fake likes, followers, CAPTCHA, scrapers, proxies, verified phone numbers, etc. would cut out a whole group of people not improving the state of the Internet as a whole and bringing a bad reputation to the WF.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      ...The quality won't come back until the quality of the discussion AND the marketplace is controlled/improved. It won't come back until people feel like this is a place they can trust and not a den of thieves selling junk...


      ...I think quality would go up if some of the smart people in the OT section would spend more time upstairs. Can't complain about the conversation and the forum going downhill if you aren't willing to help yourself. Some of you say that the OT forum is the only reason you come here. At the rate things are going there won't be a place to come to.


      Mark
      Mark,

      I honestly can feel your heart in your post, and I appreciate that!

      If I may just address the portion of your quote above...

      I don't think that asking the smart people to come back upstairs is going to fix the place. Think of the "upstairs" as any downtown area of any large city where the commerce takes place and the "downstairs" as the suburbs.

      The people moved to the suburbs to get away from the riff-raff and criminal activity that invaded the city. Asking the people of the suburbs to move back downtown to clean up the city won't work. What works is the business owners investing in the city, bringing back quality merchandise and implementing beautification projects to clean up the place is what brings the city back. Once the city starts coming back, the people of the suburbs start coming back.

      I do agree with the rest of your post, though.


      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        I don't think that asking the smart people to come back upstairs is going to fix the place.
        I'm very sorry to say that I agree, for the most part.

        Three months ago I'd have dissented from this view.

        Three months ago, I think the situation was actually different: it wasn't so longstanding (obviously enough!) and there were far more long-established members still here, to try, if suitably encouraged by some of the changes in policy that so many of us had so consistently been recommending/suggesting/urging, for so long.

        I now strongly suspect that the degree of damage done probably makes that proposition unviable.

        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        Think of the "upstairs" as any downtown area of any large city where the commerce takes place and the "downstairs" as the suburbs.

        The people moved to the suburbs to get away from the riff-raff and criminal activity that invaded the city. Asking the people of the suburbs to move back downtown to clean up the city won't work. What works is the business owners investing in the city, bringing back quality merchandise and implementing beautification projects to clean up the place is what brings the city back. Once the city starts coming back, the people of the suburbs start coming back.
        Wow: I think that's an outstandingly good, clever and entirely appropriate analogy.


        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I'm very sorry to say that I agree, for the most part.

          Three months ago I'd have dissented from this view.

          Three months ago, I think the situation was actually different: it wasn't so longstanding (obviously enough!) and there were far more long-established members still here, to try, if suitably encouraged by some of the changes in policy that so many of us had so consistently been recommending/suggesting/urging, for so long.

          I now strongly suspect that the degree of damage done probably makes that proposition unviable.

          .
          You and Miss Terra are probably right. I'm one of those eternal optimists, though, especially about things I care about.

          I guess I will keep hoping and trying to help wherever I can all the way until they put the final nail in this thing. I am afraid, though, that there are only a couple more to go.

          Mark
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            You and Miss Terra are probably right. I'm one of those eternal optimists, though, especially about things I care about.

            I guess I will keep hoping and trying to help wherever I can all the way until they put the final nail in this thing. I am afraid, though, that there are only a couple more to go.

            Mark
            Don't feel all alone, Mark.

            I myself am an eternal optimist concerning things I care about and I will be here until the last nail is in the coffin also. I moved to the suburbs and visited the city quite frequently but as of late don't leave the suburbs much at all. But I still keep an eye on the city in hopes it will rise again.


            Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            I guess I will keep hoping and trying to help wherever I can all the way until they put the final nail in this thing.
            This has always been my perspective, too.

            I doubt, myself, whether there'll be a "final nail" as quickly as that, though. They're a very big, well-funded company (I understand?) and can perhaps afford to ride out even a hugely bad patch, and maybe even find other uses for the forum, perhaps centered almost entirely around WSO sales and payment-processing? (I'm guessing, of course. Maybe this was always the long-term plan, and their perception of the "value" of the existing forum was always significantly different from what anyone really realised?).

            Not knowing Freelancer's long-term plans for the forum (though there's no compelling reason we were ever "entitled" to anyway, I suppose?) has always made it a thorny area for discussions.

            Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

            My guess would be that revenues are way down.
            Mine also. Almost "confidently" (for someone who's never seen "the books").


            .
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  • Profile picture of the author discrat
    Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post


    Being on the forum now can sometimes be somewhat soul destroying as in the majority of instances you'll be hanging about with only a sporadic poster here and there to keep you company . . . sometimes for hours.
    Maybe this is all a Godsend and will give a good swift kick in the arse to those Warriors who need to get back to work and put their nose to the grindstone instead of dillydallying around here !!
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

      Maybe this is all a Godsend and will give a good swift kick in the arse to those Warriors who need to get back to work and put their nose to the grindstone instead of dilly dallying around here !!


      I'm just wondering how since all you "smart people" just moved down here recently the forum has been lacking great conversations for YEARS.
      Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    As I pointed out in another thread -- this was an entrepreneurs forum at the start. It's now a corporate forum, with the majority of members being the "work for someone else online" mindset......in other words, trade a virtual boss for a brick and mortar one. They have been increasing in numbers since the original entrepreneurs started producing products showing the worker bees how to rehash their own, lesser quality products.

    You don't get the people with the original ideas in here now. You get the uneducated who have absolutely no base skills to understand what building a business is about. They think it's very different from offline - you don't need those skills, or the money to outsource for things you need but can't do yourself. You need nothing but can be a business owner. Some of them aren't even smart enough to know how to actually license a business, or how to check trademarks and copyrights before they do things - thinking that coming back here screaming for help to fix things that they shouldn't have done in the first place is some sort of substitute for an education and/or skills, and wouldn't if they were business people and not employee minded in the first place.

    We are no longer a forum of entrepreneurs is what has happened. We're a corporate forum full of low employee level people. That won't change again. The only way to save the forum at all is to let it morph and give it over to the employees. Our time has passed. Now all we can do is find a place to go and meet outside of this forum. I've got one suggestion for that where a lot of people are already signed on. Just waiting for people to realign themselves there.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Interesting!!

    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...le-system.html

    See the mod note at the very top? "Moderator Notice: Please do not use Income Claims in your offer! You cannot guarantee $1000 income."

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I don't see it, Mark.

    Just a testimony to me that I'm right. These newbie employees don't even know they can get swatted with an $11,000 fine for that if they aren't able to show "average income" proof on that claim.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Okay they took the mod note down in the last few minutes since I posted that. Even more interesting!

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mark,

    Check that offer now. He changed it a few minutes ago to link to an externally hosted page that promises at least $5000 a month...


    Paul
    Signature
    .
    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mark,

      Check that offer now. He changed it a few minutes ago to link to an externally hosted page that promises at least $5000 a month...


      Paul
      Yeah I saw that. You WILL make that money.

      Still interesting, though, that the note was ever there. Daniel said the other day they were going to be cracking down. Maybe it's starting a little?

      Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mark,

      Check that offer now. He changed it a few minutes ago to link to an externally hosted page that promises at least $5000 a month...


      Paul
      I don't know wether to laugh or cry...
      So he is told he can't guarantee $1000 pm, edits the WSO and now upped the income figure to $5000 pm...

      A cesspit of scammers, liars and clueless cheats, describes the WSO forum by and large....
      Signature
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

      ― George Carlin
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Really sad. I just outed a WSO seller today - not in the WSO thread, but in another thread where he's saying he can't afford $47 per month for something; yet he's selling a WSO claiming that people can make truckloads of cash...

        Um, okay...it's mind-boggling that so many people sell WSOs promising the moon, while complaining about their own financial woes in other threads. I guess they assume no one will notice.

        As for the WSO mentioned above, is that the one with allegedly stolen content, or is the issue the income claims?
        Signature
        If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          As for the WSO mentioned above, is that the one with allegedly stolen content, or is the issue the income claims?
          No the above is not the allegedly stolen content WSO.

          On the stolen content one that Daniel shut down, it's interesting that they didn't ban the user after all. He posted today in another thread.

          Mark
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          • Profile picture of the author salegurus
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            No the above is not the allegedly stolen content WSO.

            On the stolen content one that Daniel shut down, it's interesting that they didn't ban the user after all. He posted today in another thread.

            Mark
            If the guy was found innocent that's fair but if not how on earth did he get away with it...
            All that does is increase mistrust and suspicion in the WSO forum overall...
            Signature
            Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

            ― George Carlin
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

              If the guy was found innocent that's fair but if not how on earth did he get away with it...
              All that does is increase mistrust and suspicion in the WSO forum overall...
              Well, it takes a lot to get banned (except for Professor Carpet) here and it's just a slap on the wrist. It's mostly very short temp bans that are meaningless.

              They removed a permanent ban from a member who was banned for not delivering and not honoring refund policy over and over and over again. Not just once, but numerous WSOs.

              I reported a member the other day that was permanently banned but snuck back in. He's still here, and that's after he sent me a threatening pm because I outed him as a previously banned person after he had the unmitigated gall to call Willie Crawford pure evil and a scammer.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cali16
            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

            On the stolen content one that Daniel shut down, it's interesting that they didn't ban the user after all. He posted today in another thread.
            Thanks, Mark.

            That's unfortunate. Perhaps they are investigating it before banning the member? If it was up to me, anyone selling a WSO using stolen content would be banned permanently.
            Signature
            If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

        I don't know wether to laugh or cry...
        So he is told he can't guarantee $1000 pm, edits the WSO and now upped the income figure to $5000 pm...

        A cesspit of scammers, liars and clueless cheats, describes the WSO forum by and large....
        It's at $18K a month now. Gosh ... I wonder if I should buy this.

        PROOF - I was a COMPLETE NEWBIE But Now I Make Over $18,000 Per Month With a
        Simple 4-Step Kindle System

        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        You didn't include the 99,999 spam profiles that will never get deleted even If they're banned.

        AKA, bean counting.
        It's always been a numbers game with them, even if the numbers aren't based in reality. Any fool can see with the numbers on the front page, that they aren't members in any real, viable way. Then there's that converting all WF members to Freelancer members without their permission thing to inflate those numbers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Then there's that converting all WF members to Freelancer members without their permission thing to inflate those numbers.
          Did anyone from the FL admin staff ever address this, Suzanne (I'm assuming not, but if they did I missed it...)?

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I reported a member the other day that was permanently banned but snuck back in. He's still here, and that's after he sent me a threatening pm because I outed him as a previously banned person after he had the unmitigated gall to call Willie Crawford pure evil and a scammer.
          The fact that he's still here is truly baffling. I guess vicious, personal attacks are now allowed....?
          Signature
          If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            Did anyone from the FL admin staff ever address this, Suzanne (I'm assuming not, but if they did I missed it...)?
            Quiet as a mouse.

            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            The fact that he's still here is truly baffling. I guess vicious, personal attacks are now allowed....?
            Apparently it's ok to insult long term successful Warriors like Willie Crawford with impunity, even when you're some wanna be marketer who has been here under 3 identities, (one permanently banned).

            And this is not a reflection on the mods doing their job. They are under the direction of higher ups and there is a very loose banning policy in force. In addition, the current mods don't know the history of many members, and that puts them at a disadvantage when making decisions.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    LOL. Countdown to posts in the main forum asking for legal advice. Hahhahahahahahaha.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I need to clarify something I wrote in my novel above.

    I don't blame previous or current mods that were and are trying to do their jobs the best they could/can. I am especially thankful to the old mods who did an outstanding job with no direct income as a result of their mod responsibilities.

    I do believe that previous and current management/owners, the ones making the real decisions are the reasons for where we are today.

    For example, no matter what a mod personally believes about income claims or going against the TOS of another site, they aren't the final say as to whether those things are acceptable or not and they shouldn't be blamed for carrying out the owner's wishes. Just like the store clerk that refuses to give a refund on an opened DVD no matter how bad the sob story is, they were/are just doing their job based on policies and procedures set by others.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Excellent point, Mark!

      Having been a manager in retail, I can tell you the reason those DVD's cannot be returned no matter the sob story is because it is Federal Law due to piracy and copyrights. In retail, Federal Law trumps any and all company policies.

      Seems not so much here and that is kind of scary. Piracy, copyrights, false income claims, etc. are still Federal Law whether in a brick and mortar retail outlet or an online retail outlet no matter how big or small.

      The law is the law and there have been plenty of web business owners who have found that out the hard way....


      Terra
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Well, I was thinking that the long-term members could start posting stimulating threads and then just grouping up and talking around the idiot posters until the general crowd got the hang of it. However - I just went into the main forum yesterday. There were about 15 different "how do I start an IM business" posts - a couple "I want to be rich" type posts - and, of course, the "business" guy who wanted to know where to get quality articles written at a buck a pop.

      Um..........so...............................

      Never mind. DOA isn't always a bad thing.
      Maybe someone should write on how to make money, and not press a button crap!

      Then we can just point a newbie with shiny object syndrome in his eyes to this post.

      Then there is no wasting time, since most will disappear, hang around for a short time and disappear, or have the brains to accept our advise!

      Yes, rarely go upstairs, even though l should. Last time l got sick and tired of an assembly line of newbies, with SOS, (Shiny Object Syndrome).



      By the way replacing the crap smileys might lift up the forum?

      Pretty hard to attract a quality individual to this forum with dodgy smileys!



      Most big company's online, are in the process of updating their software and usually stuffing up the visuals or other processes!

      Fiverr used to have a pretty good interface, now, it is some flash nightmare!

      Graphicriver same thing, now it uses stark white for its background! And this is a graphics company, with supposed graphic experts!

      That is the trouble with PTY LTD companys, too many non experts having endless meetings and agreeing with some idiot who knows little about visuals?

      Oh, well, rant over!

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I've reported three obviously spam threads this morning - and they are all still there. Not worth trying to clean up this place when those in charge can't be bothered to toss out the trash after WE point it out. I had started reporting again after Admin said it was helpful....but I'm done with it.

      We have a new thread asking how to "earn $1 per day"....I don't know how this forum can get more 'dumbed down' than it is right now but some keep trying.
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I noticed a WSO seller, who had become banned because he had not honored his refunds (and still hasn't), is now unbanned. I followed up about 2 weeks ago to see what was going on. Sure, his WSO thread is closed, but he can easily open up a new one.

    I'm following up one more time to see what's going on and if I hear crickets again, I'm not going to report or follow up on them anymore. But this WSO seller should not be allowed to sell here, especially with customers not receiving their refunds from his clearly stated refund policy.

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      I noticed a WSO seller, who had become banned because he had not honored his refunds (and still hasn't), is now unbanned. I followed up about 2 weeks ago to see what was going on. Sure, his WSO thread is closed, but he can easily open up a new one.

      I'm following up one more time to see what's going on and if I hear crickets again, I'm not going to report or follow up on them anymore. But this WSO seller should not be allowed to sell here, especially with customers not receiving their refunds from his clearly stated refund policy.

      RoD
      You're probably talking about the same one that I referred to. Not only did he not honor his refunds on one WSO, he did it on numerous ones. I think three of them ended with bitter, unhappy customers because he did not deliver what was promised.

      He sent his girlfriend in here to "soften up the crowd" before trying to post after being unbanned. The thread did not go well for him. There were still plenty of people who remembered him and how he did business. Not only did they unban him, but they briefly re-opened the WSO thread in question so that his girlfriend shill could put in a rebuttal ... then closed it back up, so no one else could rebut the rebuttal.

      In his "comeback" thread, he promised to open a support forum for all those unhappy customers. The dead link is still in his signature. Another promise not fulfilled. But he's back in that subforum calling people "brother" ... much love brother. Right. Until he gets their money again.

      There was a very good reason for the ban and no good reason to unban.

      @Mike Ambrosio. If Willie Crawford can start a thread with the intention of starting an interesting conversation and get nothing but disrespect and slammed by a bunch of half wit losers, what makes you think that anyone else could?
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        "CORPORATE" should be defined as a curse word.

        When is the last time, if ever, you saw a "mom and pop" store you loved, that was took over/sold to corporate, then went BACK to the warm , fuzzy ways and quality of the mom and pop store?

        Still waiting to see it.

        Since when did "corporate" ever turn anything into the ways of Mayberry?

        It's a lost cause folks.

        If you are not talking dollar signs, they will let you talk to the hand..., "me no speaky english"

        Ok, so now that we know this forum is heading past the point of no return, where is the "old style" warrior forum , blog or whatever, is going to be located?

        Bring back the "buy me a beer" button.

        "HeySal" had it right, true entrepreneurs, honest, mostly, with creative, real ideas and results, all in one place that had the highest integrity of any place with that many entrepreneurial spirits, creating and manifesting the path to independence, especially from corporate world...., THAT by itself, could be considered dangerous..., a place to break free from corporatism power..., dangerous talk, from corporate perspectives, that could be infectious to the populous.

        Bring back the "old warriors" from days pasts, WITH all the old school rules.

        Not gonna happen here.

        One good thing is that if there ever will be a old school forum re-created, this thread points out the waste that led to what we see now, so a filter can be created to avoid "this".

        The new school way is unsalvageable, cause they will find a cure for cancer centuries before they find a cure for corporate.





        The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author danieljb
    Just to let you know that have read through the thread and I understand the issues being raised.

    Clearing the air with some of the concerns:

    - Addressing income claims has started some time ago. All sellers who continued with this despite our warnings in the subsection have now been banned. We are starting to crack down on a global scale.

    - The seller in question was given a temporary ban, not a permanent ban, it wasn't manually lifted. We are investigating the remaining issues. Opening or re-opening a WSO thread is not easy as it used to be for sellers who have acted outside the interests of the community.

    - Vicious, personal attacks, harassment against any member is something we have no tolerance for and moderators are here to prevent things like this situation happening again.

    - Search is something we have been looking at. We're working on an algorithm that will produce meaningful results based on a number of factors. Find All Posts by User used to only show a small number of posts, but we have improved it to show 10x the amount of posts.

    Thanks to all who continue to report posts.

    We're working towards a grand vision we have for the community. I believe things are changing for the better. We have a lot of great things lined up for the new year. I'm only a message away if you do want to discuss issues, thanks to those who I have been able to talk with so far.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by danieljb View Post


      We're working towards a grand vision we have for the community.
      Can you share any of that with us?

      And... how can we help?

      Joe Mobley
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      Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

      Vicious, personal attacks, harassment against any member is something we have no tolerance for and moderators are here to prevent things like this situation happening again.
      It's one of those "It must be true: I read it in the Warrior Forum" things.

      It's the ultimate irony.

      I wonder whether you have any idea how ironic that sounds to those of us who have been struggling, for months, without success, to try to persuade moderators and administrators even just that members who persistently and repeatedly send abusive, threatening private messages to other members should have their "p.m. facility" disabled. If the forum isn't even willing to do that, then it strikes an extremely hollow (and frankly downright offensive) tone to see you saying in public that "vicious, personal attacks, harassment against any member is something we have no tolerance for". Clearly it's something for which you (collectively) have almost infinite tolerance, and something you persistently ignore, however irrefutably and conclusively and repeatedly it's proved to be happening - and I've been complaining about that for months, and I'm not the only one, either.

      This post may come across as "hostile", and there's a good and valid reason for that: if, in your attempts to make it look as if "someone's listening and willing to do something", you're going to make statements like the one quoted above, in public, with the word "Administrator" below your name, then you're going to be called out on them in public, too, by the people they anger. And I don't care whether you personally know what I'm talking about or not: plenty of your colleagues do, and if you're posting in public "on behalf of the forum's management", then I hope and trust you're willing take the flak, similarly in public, for the forum's management, too, when you (obviously inadvertently) make such ludicrously, ironically inaccurate claims.

      If (as I suspect) you didn't realise, at all, that you were going to walk into comments like these, that's part of the problem: there should be enough communication between the forum Administrators for you to have known that your comment would understandably and reasonably produce this reaction. But apparently there isn't?

      The extreme irony of your comment angered me, just as it would have angered anyone else who has recently been through what I've been through with this forum's staff and their persistent refusal (or - in the case of moderators - allegedly "inability") to take action about harrassment of members.

      Reply or not, in public or in private as you wish, but please don't give me this "Be patient while we all work together to sort these problems out" line yet again: after so many months of commenting, explaining, communicating, making suggestions and even offering to help, I have no more tolerance for that one. Thanks for understanding.


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Alexa,

        I believe I know where the "inability" thing comes from. If I'm right and it's still happening, this place is pretty much done. If they don't have a single moderator they trust to make the hard decisions in real time, and they won't watch for and make them on their own, it's just a matter of when.

        Daniel,

        It doesn't matter how much time you and/or Alaister have to invest to get there. You MUST have at least one mod you trust and empower to make hard decisions on their own.

        So far, you're getting nibbled to death by ducks. When the sharks start circling, which they do every once in a while, you will either have someone in place who can handle them or you'll see more damage here in a single day than you currently believe is possible.

        If you want to get a clear example, PM or email me and ask about "Mother's Day."

        You guys have no clue how lucky you've been so far.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

      - Vicious, personal attacks, harassment against any member is something we have no tolerance for and moderators are here to prevent things like this situation happening again.
      Prevent it how? The guy in question that I reported for the pm and for his venomous attack on Willie Crawford is still here. Willie Crawford probably isn't, but he is and he attacked kindsvater yesterday. Those posts were also reported and removed, but he's still here to attack at will.

      In addition, I indicated to a mod that I had proof of his previous permanently banned identity. That would have been an instant ban from previous guard.

      This person and those like him do a great deal of harm to this forum. They are not valuable members. They are destructive members who destroy every thread that they participate in and give the thread starters a reason to never bother to post here again.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        This person and those like him do a great deal of harm to this forum.
        This. As many of us have been saying for over 6 months, a very small number of people like that can drive a huge number of longstanding, respected members away.

        But even after having driven most of the longstanding, respected members away, this forum's management still seems not to have understood or acknowledged that.

        I was told openly by a director of Freelancer that he thought this entire thread was "a fuss about nothing". You can imagine how much confidence that inspires!

        Originally Posted by danieljb View Post

        moderators are here to prevent things like this situation happening again.
        That trite platitude fools nobody, at this stage.

        Especially not the moderators, who know perfectly well and openly admit that they can't do anything at all about it.

        And if you believe that yourself, Daniel, then there's an even bigger problem here than I thought, because you simply don't know what's going on in this place and shouldn't be posting trying to make it look as if you're on top of this situation. You're not on top of it, and everyone's now telling you that, albeit perhaps - understandably - a little less tactfully than before.


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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Prevent it how? The guy in question that I reported for the pm and for his venomous attack on Willie Crawford is still here. Willie Crawford probably isn't, but he is and he attacked kindsvater yesterday. Those posts were also reported and removed, but he's still here to attack at will.
        I, too, am extremely frustrated that this member hasn't been banned - permanently. He joined just this year yet has had no problem making vicious attacks on highly respected senior members (and other members as well) - blatantly mocking one's profession and calling the other "evil" for selling a high-priced eBook. He excuses his behavior with his "I'm just sooooooooo honest" nonsense. Members like that take delight in tearing people down - that serves no good purpose in a forum like this (or anywhere else for that matter).

        To merely delete his posts from Kindsvater's thread (yet leave them in Willie's thread) makes no sense at all.

        I looked back at some of his other posts, and there's a pattern of behavior that shouldn't be tolerated at all. It's one thing to disagree with each other in a thread - and sometimes those disagreements get pretty heated - but he just flat out attacks and mocks other members with no hesitation - and without even the slightest provocation. That tears threads down very quickly by setting a negative tone in what started out as a positive thread intended to encourage and inspire others.

        Also, lifting the ban on someone who was previously permanently banned - for very good reasons (e.g. ripping off other members time and again) also sends a very bad message. It's akin to handing the bank vault key to a known con artist while saying, "welcome back".

        I want to believe that the new owners are listening, and perhaps, as I'm not privy to what's going on behind the scenes, working on making the changes they've promised - just at a pace that's slower than most of us would prefer. But I also agree with Paul; you've got to have moderators with a backbone who you trust to make tough decisions - and who truly understand forum dynamics.

        Those of us who continue reporting posts - and not just spam - don't do it for the fun of it. Quite frankly, it's tedious with that silly 60-second wait between reports. We do it because we care about this forum. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's starting to think more and more, "what's the point"?

        Promises to fix things are fine. But time is rapidly running out before this forum reaches a point of no return - if it hasn't already.
        Signature
        If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          I, too, am extremely frustrated that this member hasn't been banned - permanently. He joined just this year yet has had no problem making vicious attacks on highly respected senior members (and other members as well) - blatantly mocking one's profession and calling the other "evil" for selling a high-priced eBook. He excuses his behavior with his "I'm just sooooooooo honest" nonsense. Members like that take delight in tearing people down - that serves no good purpose in a forum like this (or anywhere else for that matter).
          He is neither new nor honest. He's had 3 user names with this one, one permanently banned.

          When I pointed that out in Willie's thread, he pm'd me and said "Don't f%^k with me". Oh yeah, or what?
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          • Profile picture of the author Cali16
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            He is neither new nor honest. He's had 3 user names with this one, one permanently banned.
            My bad, Suzanne. You'd said that and I totally spaced it when I was typing my post. The 2014 join date was stuck in my mind.
            Signature
            If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          I, too, am extremely frustrated that this member hasn't been banned - permanently. He joined just this year yet has had no problem making vicious attacks on highly respected senior members (and other members as well) - blatantly mocking one's profession and calling the other "evil" for selling a high-priced eBook. He excuses his behavior with his "I'm just sooooooooo honest" nonsense. Members like that take delight in tearing people down - that serves no good purpose in a forum like this (or anywhere else for that matter).
          Oh okay. That guy. Yes, I know that guy. ' The Honest Pursuits' guy. !!

          Hey guys what a second. He graduated in 2012 from College so take some slack off him because according to his 'About' when I checked out his Site a while back that fact of being a college graduate makes him someone to be Trusted and a Authority lol

          He tries to generate controversy to get noticed. What he fails to realize is that its not working and back firing on him.

          It spits in the face of conventional wisdom, which says "any publicity is good publicity".

          Because the publicity he is getting cannot serve well for his business.

          He ought to stick with being a full time student and go get his MBA or something and stay out of
          here

          Calling Willie Crawford evil...unbelievable


          EDIT : here is a quote direct from his Website " Unlike many wannabe gurus, I have a college education – if that seems somewhat elitist, I apologize, but that does set me apart from the rest of the competition. I also have years of real experience with how this industry operates, and I bring this experience to good use when I serve my audience."
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Well, I see the party line has been delivered by the party. All is well in WF land.

    Yawn.

    Here's the problem folks, like it or not. I don't know what this forum was like before I got here in 2006 but it has been increasingly becoming about "Selling Pie In The Sky Dreams To Newbies Looking To Wake Up To 10 Billion Dollars Under Their Beds."

    And I was as guilty of this as anyone else. I got caught up in the same WSO rat race as a crap ton of other people even though before I ever came to this forum I was making a good living online. But I saw the opportunity and I jumped all over it.

    If the message you're essentially sending to people is "Come here and sell your stuff because we have a massive number of people ripe for the picking" that's what's going to happen.

    No amount of "trying to improve the quality of the conversation" is going to do jack shit for this place until two things change.

    1) The WSO forum undergoes a MASSIVE overhaul. I'm sure Paul and others who were here long before me will know exactly what needs to be done to make that happen. So I'll leave it for them to post the WSO guidelines as they were back in the old days.

    2) The banner ads either have to go or be thoroughly screened. Have you seen some of the crap this forum has accepted as advertising? It's embarrassing. You can't just allow any person to post any old crap that they want. I know this is a business but you're ultimately pimping out whores to johns and that's not the kind of place that decent people looking to actually learn how to be better marketers want to come to.

    In short, we are now living in Newark, NJ back in the 60s during the riots. It's ugly and there is no reason to be here other than to hang out in the sewers chatting with your few friends who are down there with you trying to escape from the rain of bullets blasting holes in the very fabric of this place.

    For me, the last straw was when Willie Crawford started a very positive thread that had to be shut down because a bunch of ******* retards attacked him like he was some noob just out of kindergarten.

    The body has died. The only thing we're waiting for now is the brain to stop functioning so we can finally bury this place.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      The sewer Steve? I'm afraid you're mistaken if you think I would ever hang out in a sewer.

      I don't know about your friends, but mine are hanging out in the lounge downstairs.


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    I've read all the above threads and would like to believe that the new owners of the WF
    didn't buy the place to crash it into the nearest deserted island...

    I'm just curious,
    Could this be the work of another forum(remaining unnamed at this time)that has
    caused problems here before? Could it be that they know that the old guards have
    been replaced with new recruits there by they are taking advantage of the situation?

    Just food for thought while thinking aloud and wondering my self?

    Have a Great Day/Night!
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Michael,
      Could this be the work of another forum(remaining unnamed at this time)that has caused problems here before? Could it be that they know that the old guards have been replaced with new recruits there by they are taking advantage of the situation?
      Possible, but very unlikely. The ones I've noticed doing this have histories of persistent negative and/or abusive commentary. Only one them that I'm aware of uses mod responses as a basis for griping in other forums.

      There's no need to assume any sort of conspiracy. Any place as big as this will always have plenty of visitors who are jerks for their own private reasons.

      There are at least a couple who've escalated in big ways since the change in ownership and the significant loosening of restrictions on abuse.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Thank you Daniel, Admin, Mod.



    I pm'd Willie and informed him and told him that I do hope that he posts again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bruce,

    I may be wrong, but I don't believe this is the first time that visitors from India outnumbered visitors from the US here. And given the educational level in India and the many strongly positive contributors we've had (and still have) from there over the years, I don't really care for the "Tier 2" label.

    If you want to comment on problem posting by country of origin, you'd be more accurate to focus on Pakistan, Bangladesh, Viet Nam, and Sri Lanka. Those are where the "human automation" jobs have moved in the past few years.

    And keep in mind that those are intelligent people trying to make a living in a difficult economy in a language which isn't native to them. They're not bad people. They're just being paid (mostly by Americans and Brits and Aussies) for something they're ill-equipped to do well.


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
      Merry Christmas Paul...

      Here's my 3 sentence post from above..."From an advertisers standpoint, thats all that matters. I see my ads on WF no longer produce anything like they used to. Tier 2 and 3 countries simply do not and cannot buy like Tier 1 countries... That India visitors now surpass US visitors to the WF probably would surprise most members.

      I'm puzzled why you want to lecture me about what I should be posting. You wrote: "If you want to comment on problem posting by country of origin, you'd be more accurate to focus on Pakistan, Bangladesh, Viet Nam, and Sri Lanka..."

      I am only reporting what the latest traffic stats 'Country Of Origin' show. And if you re-read my comment, I merely said the numbers regarding India vs. US would surprise most members. Is that inflammatory or something?

      Is THAT cause to further lecture me that "those are intelligent people trying to make a living in a difficult economy in a language which isn't native to them. They're not bad people."

      WHERE DID I SAY THEY ARE 'BAD PEOPLE'? What post are you reading to conclude that?

      I am commenting regarding the economic ability OF ALL Tier 2 and 3 country residents to buy the goods sold on WF.

      India, as just one example, has a per capita income of $1,700 a year. By comparison, the US has a per capita income of $54, 600. You can draw your own conclusions about individual buying power, etc.

      And after researching it further, India is not even a Tier 2 country ECONOMICALLY, but is a Tier 3 country. The measure is about economic power, not whether people are 'good or bad'...

      Since I have many Indian friends, I'll let them know Paul Myers says, they are not bad people....though the more hip ones I know will probably want to be 'bad'...

      You'll also note my comment was about getting good advertising value for the dollars spent on WF, and my suspicions as to why bigger membership numbers do not necessarily equal a better selling space.

      If you have issues with the terms "TIER 1, 2 or 3 nations", you probably should take it up with the international economic organizations that coined those phrases...they didn't ask me about it.

      Here's hoping your eggnog is spiked, and your tree is erect,
      Bruce :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    @Mark

    Couldn't help chuckling to myself when I saw this the other day;




    -Chris
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bruce,

    You're right. That needed to be said, but you weren't the one it should have been directed toward. You were entirely correct, and I apologize.

    One small nit... The comment about not being bad people wasn't directed at any ethnicity. It was about the folks who do the "human automation" jobs, like link dropping. That's something I needed to remind myself of on a regular basis for a long time.

    Honestly, Bruce, I get so sick of seeing people in this place bashing Indians that I sometimes wish I could just Gibbs-smack them and ask, "Hey! How's yer Hindi?" or "Verstehen sie Urdu, dipstick?" I think the chance to make a civilly toned comment to a reasonable person overrode my sense of context.

    That's one more habit I have to break.

    Merry Christmas, sir!


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    When Freelancer bought WF, the US membership was at 37% according to Barrie interviews. Personally, I don't care whether they come from India or Nigeria, the membership drive that has increased the membership here has done the WF no favors.

    1. Lack of engagement by long term members, many of them just having left rather than migrating to OT to bicker about news. I used to be able to find interesting conversations in the main and sub forums. Now that's rare, and no I don't speak whatever languages that many here speak, but I also don't feel engaged in broken English conversations, and no I don't Verstehen sie Urdu, but I wouldn't join a forum where that was the language.

    2. Used to be a place where we could make money. I've moved my business interests off of the WF because income has sunk like a stone. It's obvious that the existing membership does not consist of as many buyers as before. I'm advertising less and less on WF and the day that I bump a thread and don't recover the $20 fee, I'll stop advertising here altogether.

    3. While people in India may be intelligent people, well educated people, etc. that does not mean that the WF has attracted intelligent, well educated people. I've seen as much spam from India as anywhere else, as much link dropping of Indian links as anywhere else, and as much blatant self promotion of Indian companies as from anywhere else. Sure, there are many long standing, intelligent Indian members. I've had conversations with many of them. It would not surprise me if some of them have also moved on.

    With that increase in membership and other changes made to WF, the traffic is in serious decline, the conversations are dismal, a lot of the people who did turn out decent products and spend big bucks on advertising are gone, and there's such a huge amount of link dropping/self promotion/spam that anytime I do investigate a thread for possible conversation, by the time I report to clean it up, I've really lost my interest in the thread. It's a real turnoff.

    When you mess with people's incomes, they will move. That's a simple fact and when they tried to push Warrior Payments on everyone, a lot of sellers and affiliates that were brought here by Warrior Plus and JVZoo disappeared. That, plus the reality that the new Warrior Forum does not consist of the same quality of buyers that it did previously, and you have little reason for entrepreneurs to be here at all.

    Daniel mentioned new things in the pipeline that are exciting ... that's what they said before they launched Warrior Payments, so now I am very skeptical of any carrots dangling from a stick. What is exciting to freelancer turns out to be not so exciting to me.

    ADDED: From a press release:

    Founded in 1997 by Allen Says, Warrior Forum is the pre-eminent marketplace and community for Internet marketing professionals across the globe. Ranked by Alexa as the 225th most visited website in the world, the site also ranks in the top 150 websites in the United States and United Kingdom, and top 100 in Australia by traffic1.

    With over 732,000 members, Warrior Forum is the largest Internet marketing forum in the world. The community is comprised of the world's best Internet marketers, online entrepreneurs, growth hackers and technology specialists. Warrior Forum's user base includes Vice Presidents, Chief Marketing and Chief Growth Officers from some of the top Internet companies in the world.

    Warrior Forum is world renowned for the War Room and Warrior Special Offers (WSOs). The War Room is an elite private discussion group where the world's best marketers share their experiences and learnings. WSOs are offers posted in the online marketplace exclusively by War Room members that are special deals unavailable anywhere else on the Internet. This marketplace is the largest online marketing marketplace globally, and includes marketplaces for buying and selling products & services, websites, domain names, hiring freelancers and advertising freelance services. It also includes classified advertising and an affiliate program database.
    Barrie plans to cross-promote Freelancer.com to the Warrior Room audience, given its users - online business builders and marketers, 37 per cent of whom are based in the US - are similar to those already posting jobs to the ASX-listed site.

    “The feedback I’m getting from the forum on the site is that people don’t mind, they’re happy that someone’s finally going to invest to make the site easier to use,” says Barrie, pointing out the Louisiana-based company’s servers were “at their limit” for the traffic the Warrior Room generates.
    What does the future hold for WF? What I see is WF becoming one big micro-job market ... kind of like another fiverr. That's the mentality that is being recruited. Cheap, cheap, cheap. It is fast moving away from a "premier" Internet Marketing forum and place for entrepreneurs to discuss and conduct business to just another place to post cheap services and cheap junk products.

    Cross promote Freelancer all you want and I'm sure that some of your new membership will bite, but being a freelancer is not what many of the old membership is here for.

    ADDED: Here's the level of conversation that I see so much of that was just posted in a thread that have posted in. It's about shoes.

    Hi,

    I'm xxxxxx from Bangladesh just joined here. Women's shows to much cost because they always love to decorate herself. For this they buy shows one after one. May be I'm not right but jokes a part.

    Thank You!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Now I know what my problem has been all along. I have to get my wife a new pair of shows.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I think the reason is very simple.

    Facebook has replaced what this forum did for many members. Times have changed.

    I can now be part of a few private Facebook groups filled with like-minded members.

    It's much better for me and much easier to follow conversations and I get way more value back from Facebook groups than I ever did on this forum.

    Although Facebook has taken over for most people, I did still enjoy coming back here every now and then. But it was many decisions made by the new management that put the nail in the coffin for me.

    I don't want to support a business that doesn't support or care about it's member.

    They (FL) are now going to learn that the hard way.

    This forums best days are behind it and I really don't have any interest in resurrecting it either.

    It was good while it lasted but time to move on me thinks.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I think the reason is very simple.

      Facebook has replaced what this forum did for many members. Times have changed.

      I can now be part of a few private Facebook groups filled with like-minded members.

      It's much better for me and much easier to follow conversations and I get way more value back from Facebook groups than I ever did on this forum.

      Although Facebook has taken over for most people, I did still enjoy coming back here every now and then. But it was many decisions made by the new management that put the nail in the coffin for me.

      I don't want to support a business that doesn't support or care about it's member.

      They (FL) are now going to learn that the hard way.

      This forums best days are behind it and I really don't have any interest in resurrecting it either.

      It was good while it lasted but time to move on me thinks.


      I guess the nail in that Coffin you are purported as having was not quite secure or maybe a little loose as evident in your decision to come back , if not just momentarily .

      And I guess we are all supposed to bow down to your final farewell Post as magnificently grandstanding as it seems.
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