President Obama Proposes To Make Community College Free and Universal

9 years ago

Actually, this isn't for ALL! It may actually benefit the richest poor the most, due to grade inflation and all.

It is interesting though, since MANY drop out of highschool. They will *****NOT***** see the benefit of this! There are others that get a GED. THEY will *****NOT***** see the benefit of this! They are giving benefits to illegal aliens that were earlier reserved ONLY for VALID state residents, which raises costs and lowers availability and value to citizens! They are REPLACING ALL THE TEXTBOOKS, as a REQUIREMENT for "common core"!!!!!!! They have RAISED COSTS FOR ALL!

SO, after diluting the value, for ALL CITIZENS, for over a DECADE, NOW, they want to take credit for giving a FEW a free ride! INCREDIBLE!

Steve

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ThomM

9 years ago

Sense when has the definition of free changed to someone else paying for it?

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Alexa Smith

Banned 9 years ago

Community College fees are really cheap to start with, aren't they? (Isn't that part of the idea of "Community College", that it's for people who are working, or whatever?).

Well, if it means a few tens of thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise have gone to college go to college, I suppose that has to be a good thing, overall, doesn't it? I mean that is a good thing, IMO: the higher the proportion of people who go to college, the better.

But this is perhaps going to turn into a big "matter of principle" deal over something that's a relatively small amount of money anyway?

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sense when has the definition of free changed to someone else paying for it?

Ach, well, that's just how people talk, isn't it? People who don't understand that governments don't have money apart from what they raise in taxes and so on. That's like healthcare, over here: people widely think of it as being "free" (we pay for it through our taxes, of course).

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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Community College fees are really cheap to start with, aren't they? (Isn't that part of the idea of "Community College", that it's for people who are working, or whatever?).

Well, if it means a few tens of thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise have gone to college go to college, I suppose that has to be a good thing, overall, doesn't it? I mean that is a good thing, IMO: the higher the proportion of people who go to college, the better.

But this is perhaps going to turn into a big "matter of principle" deal over something that's a relatively small amount of money anyway?

Ach, well, that's just how people talk, isn't it? People who don't understand that governments don't have money apart from what they raise in taxes and so on. That's like healthcare, over here: people widely think of it as being "free" (we pay for it through our taxes, of course).

.

You said...

Well, if it means a few tens of thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise have gone to college go to college, I suppose that has to be a good thing, overall, doesn't it? I mean that is a good thing,

IMO: the higher the proportion of people who go to college, the better.

I say...

That would seem like a worthy goal of any modern society (especially with the price tag), but unfortunately with this non-nation-building congress, its a non starter.

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Alexa Smith Banned 9 years ago

Over here, college fees used to be "free" (i.e. paid for by the student's Local Education Authority, i.e. paid for out of local taxes and governmental district educational allowances, but limited to three years, I think, with the occasional "discretionary 4th year" for long courses) until Blair, who more or less abolished that.

They're now paid-for by the student and charged at a maximum of £9,000 per year (which many universities do actually charge), but student loans are available to UK students (i.e. not to overseas students), most of them entirely interest-free, some "as of right", some means-tested and others not, and people don't have to start repaying their student loans until they're earning above a certain figure.

Some people say that the entire student-loan system is barely worthwhile, with quite a high proportion not repaying, quite a few being "lost and not followed up", some emigrating etc. etc., and that it may have been wiser to continue to subsidise college fees through taxation than to set up this whole hugely complicated system we now have. People here had been used to not having to pay college fees for generations. Since the war, I think.

Some European Union countries have really low college fees. I read that Maastricht University (wherever that is - Netherlands or somewhere? ) is about £1,500 per year or something similar. They teach many courses/degrees in English too. It must be subsidised by their government, I guess ...

The fees I have to pay now (as a part-time PhD research student) are also very low, compared with what I paid a few years ago. But the university resources I use are also pretty limited.

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lanfear63

9 years ago

I work at a very large CC in the US with over 93,000 students either attending, online or at our University center, I process, print and distribute via a mailing service, several hundred refunds a week, these are refunds for partial attendance, students dropping out of classes, financial aid and scholarship re-reimbursements.

Four times a year I do about 8-thousand of these in one run, a few thousand more are done via electronic transfer. So, it will be less work for me if it goes through.

I also perceive an extra expansion of our campuses due to a big take-up.

Do I agree with it. Of course, I have always lumped education as well as health services as part of basic infrastructure of a country. And, as Lexi points out, we pay a little more in taxes for this, and taxes of course should be tiered based on our earnings. After all, we pay for this stuff anyway privately which would work out more.

Any step in this direction is fine by me. I'm sure my post will be getting some flack but I am still able to look at it from an outside view and can compare it with the UK and other countries, something that a lot of you cant having been brought up with it the way it is. So, bring on the charts and stats and bolded paragraphs.

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Alexa Smith Banned 9 years ago

One suggestion being made over here, which I believe has never been tried here before, is to change the current system (or partly to change it) to include a "graduate tax", a marginal, additional income-tax, the money raised from it to be hypothecated to subsidising college education for future generations.

Graduates do (here, as everywhere) earn significantly more, overall, than non-graduates.

The suggestion is that (like current student loan repayments) it should be applied only "above a certain figure of annual income".

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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Do I agree with it. Of course, I have always lumped education as well as health services as part of basic infrastructure of a country.

Of course, I do NOT agree. I have always known that personal responsibility is the price of liberty in a free republic.

Originally Posted by lanfear63

And, as Lexi points out, we pay a little more in taxes for this

Noooooh. They, in the UK pay "a little more" in taxes. The US does not have a Federal Government capable of doing "a little more" in taxes.

Originally Posted by lanfear63

After all, we pay for this stuff anyway privately which would work out more.

gobbledygook

Originally Posted by lanfear63

I am still able to look at it from an outside view and can compare it with the UK and other countries, something that a lot of you cant having been brought up with it the way it is.

To the contrary, your "special view" is quite common among socialist.

Joe Mobley

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ThomM 9 years ago

Some other points people seem to be missing.
First we already finance a college education for poor, it's called P.E.L.L. Federal Pell Grant Program
Many states like N.Y. also have tuition assistance programs or T.A.P.

Second this is really nothing more then subsidizing 2 year colleges.
It does nothing to prevent college costs from raising.

Third it does nothing to increase the graduation or finishing rate.

So it's really nothing more then a "feel good" idea with no actual benefits.
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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

Of course, I do NOT agree. I have always known that personal responsibility is the price of liberty in a free republic.

Noooooh. They, in the UK pay "a little more" in taxes. The US does not have a Federal Government capable of doing "a little more" in taxes.

gobbledygook

To the contrary, your "special view" is quite common among socialist.

Joe Mobley

Yep Joe, a free republic where people can bankrupt themselves when they get ill or have an accident through no fault of their own. A free republic where people can run up huge debts seeking a better education so they can get a better job or work for themselves with better knowledge.

Please don't label something as evil Socialism that most people in the REST of the FREE world simply regard as basic common sense.

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HeySal

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Yep Joe, a free republic where people can bankrupt themselves when they get ill or have an accident through no fault of their own. A free republic where people can run up huge debts seeking a better education so they can get a better job or work for themselves with better knowledge.

Please don't label something as evil Socialism that most people in the REST of the FREE world simply regard as basic common sense.

Go back and read up on your social philosophies. In a "free republic" people can't hurt themselves all that easily. It's when the gov starts putting restraints and regulations on the "free republic" and instating fiat institutions such as the FED on us that we can easily bankrupt ourselves.

You've never lived in a "free market" society or a "free republic". You've been economized on a fiat money system owned by a central banking cartel. Your medicine is not medicine - it's a medical industrial complex owned by the pharmaceutical and hospital moguls. Constitutional law is not practiced in court rooms (if it was, we wouldn't have people suing each other). It is corporate law and Admiral law - contract law.

America is not being fashioned as you see socialism fashioned in Europe. Socialism is a very, very, very broad term.

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Go back and read up on your social philosophies. In a "free republic" people can't hurt themselves all that easily. It's when the gov starts putting restraints and regulations on the "free republic" and instating fiat institutions such as the FED on us that we can easily bankrupt ourselves.

You've never lived in a "free market" society or a "free republic". You've been economized on a fiat money system owned by a central banking cartel. Your medicine is not medicine - it's a medical industrial complex owned by the pharmaceutical and hospital moguls. Constitutional law is not practiced in court rooms (if it was, we wouldn't have people suing each other). It is corporate law and Admiral law - contract law.

America is not being fashioned as you see socialism fashioned in Europe. Socialism is a very, very, very broad term.

Yours is a system of running a country that when America was first populated their was pretty much unlimited resources so the system was acceptable because their was so much to go around, so much opportunity. It did not matter.

Now that it is falling apart due to overpopulation and the dwindling of those resources the have and have not's is becoming more prevalent. So, Republics, free, corrupt or otherwise all will eventually all go the way of the Dodo based on the above unless they change dramatically. Socialization of key aspects of any given society has to take place. That does not mean that all a liberties need to be taken away.

The people uprising to overthrow Republic's and monarchistic countries has a list as long as my arm.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Yours is a system of running a country that when America was first populated their was pretty much unlimited resources so the system was acceptable because their was so much to go around, so much opportunity. It did not matter.

Now that it is falling apart due to overpopulation and the dwindling of those resources the have and have not's is becoming more prevalent. So, Republics, free, corrupt or otherwise all will eventually all go the way of the Dodo based on the above unless they change dramatically. Socialization of key aspects of any given society has to take place. That does not mean that all a liberties need to be taken away.

The people uprising to overthrow Republic's and monarchistic countries has a list as long as my arm.

So why don't you go to russia, china, or cuba? BTW, I locked onto something an interesting way. You said "DODO", and I thought"DODD O". YEAH, I am ALL FOR scrapping everything Dodd had a hand in! Our resources would go up, and taxes would drop!

Steve

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Joe Mobley 9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Yep Joe, a free republic where people can bankrupt themselves when they get ill or have an accident through no fault of their own.

Originally Posted by lanfear63

A free republic where people can run up huge debts seeking a better education so they can get a better job or work for themselves with better knowledge.

Typical socialist thinking. "Let's not fix the problem. Let's just tax the crap out of every living soul so we can feel good about ourselves." Additionally, your type of thinking almost always results in making the problem worse.

Easy to tell that the "special view" you have of the world comes from being a government employee. Typical government employee thinking... that you have a "special view."

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Please don't label something as evil Socialism

If the shoe fits...

Originally Posted by lanfear63

the REST of the FREE world simply regard as basic common sense.

Now there's a quality life decision, basing one's thinking on what the the rest of the world regards.

I'm going to stay with "The price of liberty is the exercise of personal responsibility."

Joe Mobley
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- Joe Mobley 9 years ago
  
  President Obama Proposes To Make Community College Free and Universal
  
  for any American who wanted it.
  
  And any illegal alien that can get to a US border.
  
  Joe Mobley
  
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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Community College fees are really cheap to start with, aren't they? (Isn't that part of the idea of "Community College", that it's for people who are working, or whatever?).

YEP! IIRC, when I went, in LA county California, it was like 5 dollars a credit for the class, per semester. The BOOKS generally cost less than maybe $200 and were generally good for the entire class! So the costs were TINY compared to STATE, and private, colleges. Some of the community colleges were fancy. When I went there, they may have fancy cafeterias, large libraries, almost be like a healthclub, have mainframe computers, and terminals, etc... Of course they had teachers, counselors, a nurse on duty, etc....

Well, if it means a few tens of thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise have gone to college go to college, I suppose that has to be a good thing, overall, doesn't it? I mean that is a good thing, IMO: the higher the proportion of people who go to college, the better.

I guarantee it WON'T help! If you can't pay the low fees, EVEN AT MINIMUM WAGE, forget it! Community colleges have been around for DECADES. I don't know when they started, it may have started with the mayflower! But they were around even when I was a little kid!

But this is perhaps going to turn into a big "matter of principle" deal over something that's a relatively small amount of money anyway?

MISMANAGED, the small amount of money could be tens or hundreds of thousands flushed down the sewer for even ONE student!

Ach, well, that's just how people talk, isn't it? People who don't understand that governments don't have money apart from what they raise in taxes and so on. That's like healthcare, over here: people widely think of it as being "free" (we pay for it through our taxes, of course).

.

I recently lost my job. I called up a friend, to get a job elsewhere, and found they changed hiring rules late last year. I have heard about others having similar problems. I found an interesting quirk in OC that explains it all. If I am right, WOW!!!!!! It is a special rule that went into effect only 9 DAYS ago. SO, as of today, OC has officially raised MY "healthcare cost" by $711 EVERY MONTH!!!!! To be 100% fair, if I am wrong about the latest new law, the actual increase is only about $340 every month, but THAT doesn't make ME feel any better! This is ON TOP of the average $3030/year everyone has to pay for the monstrosity in taxes. BTW I quoted "healthcare", because this is just INSURANCE, though $30/month is for increased drug costs. ANOTHER thing, also about a month ago, they have decided to not cover drugs anymore unless I have them shipped to me. Due to logistical problems, that could increase my monthly costs by ANOTHER $100+!

Steve

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Community College fees are really cheap to start with, aren't they? (Isn't that part of the idea of "Community College", that it's for people who are working, or whatever?).

Well, if it means a few tens of thousands of people who wouldn't otherwise have gone to college go to college, I suppose that has to be a good thing, overall, doesn't it? I mean that is a good thing, IMO: the higher the proportion of people who go to college, the better.

But this is perhaps going to turn into a big "matter of principle" deal over something that's a relatively small amount of money anyway?

Ach, well, that's just how people talk, isn't it? People who don't understand that governments don't have money apart from what they raise in taxes and so on. That's like healthcare, over here: people widely think of it as being "free" (we pay for it through our taxes, of course).

.

Alexa first let me say I very much value education.
Something like this, I think, devalues education. I'll explain why.
When I first officially entered the job market having just a high school diploma was a big deal. Having just that could open doors to above entry level jobs. As they became common you needed at least a 2 year college degree to open the same doors.Whenever you make an education (at this level) so easy to get that anyone can have it and eventually everyone does have it, it puts that degree on the same level as a high school diploma. So then entry level jobs will require a college degree. All that's changed is the people getting jobs at McD's and other places like that will have to go to school longer to get the same low paying jobs.
In other words you don't add value to something by devaluing it.

If you are referring to ME,

Nope I'm not.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

In other words you don't add value to something by devaluing it.

Yes, I take this point completely.

I must say that over here (even with people getting student loans rather than being subsidised through taxes), there are some kind of strange "universities" (many of which used to be "polytechnics", "technical colleges", "colleges of further education" and so on) where people do degrees in some pretty questionable (in my opinion) subjects, and there's quite a widespread perspective that some of the people who go to "university" probably shouldn't, really. University education clearly has been devalued here, in some ways, since my father's day.

Originally Posted by seasoned

I recently lost my job.

Am dismayed and very surprised to hear it, Steve. Very temporary situation for you, I hope?!

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Yes, I take this point completely.

I must say that over here (even with people getting student loans rather than being subsidised through taxes), there are some kind of strange "universities" (many of which used to be "polytechnics", "technical colleges", "colleges of further education" and so on) where people do degrees in some pretty questionable (in my opinion) subjects, and there's quite a widespread perspective that some of the people who go to "university" probably shouldn't, really. University education clearly has been devalued here, in some ways, since my father's day.

They have the SAME here! NOW, they are actually being EXPOSED in comedies! In one, for example, a burglar, when told he could get a better job, etc... Said he had a degree in philosophy, and nobody would accept it as a degree. I mean SERIOUSLY, it has no real value. I knew one person that got a degree in English, and had atrocious grammar! I called him on it, and he said it just basically meant he read books! Supposedly, he knew a lot about literature, and that was it. BTW he was a primary school teacher,

My father did pretty well in his life. He majored in Math, and minored in Accounting. I don't know too much about his earlier jobs, but the second one he tried to get, after marrying my mother was with IBM. He got it, did real well, apparently signed a lot of valuable technology over to IBM, got some major clients for them, and started his own company. It wasn't an EDS or a perot systems, but in a way, it was a competitor. I don't know if perot was ever a programmer, but he made his startup capital by selling IBM mainframes, left for the same reason as my father, and ended up doing the same sort of thing.

IBM figured someone that did well in advanced math could handle computers, and most programs back then were dealing with accounting. At the time, I doubt they had ANY degrees in computers. When my father was born, computers were still kind of SCI FI stuff! Around the time my father started at IBM, computers were just really starting to take off. HECK, the oldest one I know something about, IIRC, is only about as old as I am!

Am dismayed and very surprised to hear it, Steve. Very temporary situation for you, I hope?!

I appreciate the concern. I mentioned it only to illustrate potential fallout from such things. I have a couple opportunities I am looking at. In the meantime, I can get my home squared away, and plan some improvements on my life.. MAYBE, within a few months, I can just laugh at the situation.

Steve

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Lucian Lada

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

In other words you don't add value to something by devaluing it.

I have no job experience (and I don't plan on having, either) but I must say that I think you're looking at this from your point of view, not from the society's. The society will only benefit from better educated people.

They make better buying decisions, so this means less crappy services and products.

They can tell better when a politician tries to deceive them, so this means more honest politicians (and as a result, better laws).

They make better personal decisions, so this means fewer divorces. Sure, wife-beater sales will drop, too, but hey, nothing's perfect.

Etc.

And as long as the labor market is regulated effectively, increased formal qualification requirements should be correlated with higher wages. Yes, you'll need to study more before you can get a good job, but you'll earn more, too.

However, I can see how this can be a problem for the people who are in their 40s and 50s and can't go back to college to catch up. But to be honest, a lucid government should know this and take measures. (Maybe let them retire earlier?)

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Lucian Lada

I have no job experience (and I don't plan on having, either) but I must say that I think you're looking at this from your point of view, not from the society's. The society will only benefit from better educated people.

They make better buying decisions, so this means less crappy services and products.

They can tell better when a politician tries to deceive them, so this means more honest politicians (and as a result, better laws).

They make better personal decisions, so this means fewer divorces. Sure, wife-beater sales will drop, too, but hey, nothing's perfect.

Etc.

And as long as the labor market is regulated effectively, increased formal qualification requirements should be correlated with higher wages. Yes, you'll need to study more before you can get a good job, but you'll earn more, too.

However, I can see how this can be a problem for the people who are in their 40s and 50s and can't go back to college to catch up. But to be honest, a lucid government should know this and take measures. (Maybe let them retire earlier?)

No you kind of missed my point.
If every one has a 2 year college degree that costs them nothing to get, then that degree becomes worthless when applying for a job.
It's not my point of view, it's a pattern I've observed over my life.
Like I said previously when I first entered the job market having a high school diploma was a pretty big deal. It gave you an advantage in even getting a job interview.

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Joe Mobley 9 years ago

Error 404, country not found.

Perhaps you were looking for The Socialist States of America?

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Cali16

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

No you kind of missed my point.
If every one has a 2 year college degree that costs them nothing to get, then that degree becomes worthless when applying for a job.

I disagree (which isn't to say I'm necessarily in favor of this free CC tuition plan) and here's why:

First, even if these programs do become free for everyone, not everyone is going to take advantage of them - not by a long shot.

Second, of those who do, many will drop out before they finish (look at all the kids who drop out of H.S. - and it's free). Not everyone is cut out for college, and many who start realize that after a few classes or a couple semesters - whether the tuition is free or not.

Third, those who do take advantage of it and complete their 2-year degree will still need to go on and complete their bachelor's degree to be competitive in today's job market - and many fields require graduate degrees on top of that. Some won't go on to do that, most likely because they can't afford it, don't want to borrow the money, or don't have the drive to continue.

Fourth, there is no such thing as a degree that "costs them nothing to get". Tuition is only a small part of the actual cost of education. It requires a lot of time, dedication, and work.

Lastly, you mentioned the PELL grant program. A lot of students aren't eligible for those grants due to their parents' income. But that doesn't necessarily mean Mom and Dad can afford to pay for their college - or that they're willing to if they can. This plan would enable some of those individuals to pursue a 4-year degree by cutting their total education cost by quite a bit.

I'm not saying I agree with Obama's plan, but I don't believe it will devalue a college education by making community colleges free to attend. I also don't think it will substantially increase the percentage of people who ultimately obtain a bachelor's degree (or higher) when all is said and done.

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Kay King

9 years ago

What devalues it is the word "universal". With no qualifiers you run into the problem of dropout rates - then you lower expectations to fit those criteria - and it's a subsidized govt program rather than an educational boost.

We're going to read about quite a few big plans - but they can't go anywhere because we can't afford them. Even the people proposing them know that.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What devalues it is the word "universal". With no qualifiers you run into the problem of dropout rates - then you lower expectations to fit those criteria - and it's a subsidized govt program rather than an educational boost.

We're going to read about quite a few big plans - but they can't go anywhere because we can't afford them. Even the people proposing them know that.

Plus like I've mentioned and what Julie mentions in the video I posted, business will simply raise the bar again. Going back to the 50's and 60's a high school diploma would almost guarantee you a job. Then when the graduation rates went up you needed at least a 2 year college degree. When that became common, you needed a 4 year degree. Now that a 4 year degree has become common that doesn't mean much. Like in the video from the Big Bang Theory that I posted when Howard says "I have a masters degree" the Dean replies "Who doesn't".

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Cali16

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What devalues it is the word "universal". With no qualifiers you run into the problem of dropout rates - then you lower expectations to fit those criteria - and it's a subsidized govt program rather than an educational boost.

Agreed, Kay. It would make no sense to allow truly anyone to get in; they still need to have a certain minimum H.S. GPA and / or SAT score, etc. to get accepted in the first place. I guess I was assuming that there would still be some legitimate criteria for getting accepted into a community college.

But, in the end, if a lot of people end up dropping out who weren't cut out for college in the first place, I don't see it as devaluing the education - perhaps I'm wrong there. But having no criteria for acceptance would be extremely foolish and a huge waste of money and resources.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If every one has a 2 year college degree that costs them nothing to get, then that degree becomes worthless when applying for a job.

No. They don't become worthless. There are just more qualified people. At least more people that are willing to take the time to go to community college. Just because it's free, doesn't mean people will go.

I don't see a rush to go to college, regardless of the cost. It still takes an effort.

Not directly at you, but it's interesting how the position on this is nearly 100% predictable, based on political party. The rationale is what's interesting. It's like the brain says "OK, this must be seen as bad. Now let's figure out how it's bad"

Of course it happens in the reverse too.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No. They don't become worthless. There are just more qualified people. At least more people that are willing to take the time to go to community college. Just because it's free, doesn't mean people will go.

I don't see a rush to go to college, regardless of the cost. It still takes an effort.

Not directly at you, but it's interesting how the position on this is nearly 100% predictable, based on political party. The rationale is what's interesting. It's like the brain says "OK, this must be seen as bad. Now let's figure out how it's bad"

Of course it happens in the reverse too.

You confused me Claude (just woke up, no coffee yet). How does a free 2 year college education make someone more qualified, for what?
Do you think this would lower the drop out rate or raise it?
Do you think it will lower the costs of a college education for those not eligible for the program? How about for those that go on to a four year college?
Programs like this have always raised the costs for people that aren't eligible for those programs.

Bu the way only half of the eligible voters are affiliated with either major party, at best. So that line is really doesn't work.

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ThomM 9 years ago

Here's another person that gets it.

Free Community College is a Bad Idea - YouTube
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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Lucian Lada

I have no job experience (and I don't plan on having, either) but I must say that I think you're looking at this from your point of view, not from the society's. The society will only benefit from better educated people.

Actually, YOU are the one that is looking at this WRONG! We are NOT talking about EDUCATION! We are talking about "COLLEGE"! YOU have fallen into the trap that they are the SAME. THEY AREN'T! WHY do you suppose that people work so hard to get into a particular school? I mean WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!! It costs more, is more hassle, may take longer, etc.... So WHY? REPUTATION! You see, COLLEGE is undergoing a transformation like those scifi flicks where they show the essence of people being transferred in a brain transfer. The BODY is COLLEGE! The ESSENCE is the spirit of the knowledge being conveyed. LIKEWISE, it is the same with what WE are talking about.

The DOE USED to supposedly be for the STUDENT'S EDUCATION! TODAY, it is for the government propaganda and the "TEACHER'S" JOB!

They make better buying decisions, so this means less crappy services and products.

OH REALLY? So the US should be BETTER than it was. It is WORSE! But this is on the belief that it is EDUCATION!

They can tell better when a politician tries to deceive them, so this means more honest politicians (and as a result, better laws).

AS I SAID, they spread PROPAGANDA! So they do the REVERSE of what you just claimed. Just look at how the US has changed!

They make better personal decisions, so this means fewer divorces. Sure, wife-beater sales will drop, too, but hey, nothing's perfect.

And yet there are MORE scams than ever! There are more divorces than ever! wife-beater!?!?!?!? OH YEAH, it seems like "domestic abuse" is up ALSO!

And as long as the labor market is regulated effectively, increased formal qualification requirements should be correlated with higher wages. Yes, you'll need to study more before you can get a good job, but you'll earn more, too.

EVENTUALLY, TRACK RECORD matters MORE! It is harder than ever to get a job in my industry! You know why? PEOPLE LIE!!!!!!! They don't care WHERE you say you went to school. They will TEST you. If college were so great, they could just check records! OH, this guy got HIGH marks in VB and SQL, they can do our simple VB app.

However, I can see how this can be a problem for the people who are in their 40s and 50s and can't go back to college to catch up. But to be honest, a lucid government should know this and take measures. (Maybe let them retire earlier?)

Actually, you CAN go back to college. And in the US, you could retire at 18! They WON'T pay you the MEAGER Social Security, and they WON'T let you properly access YOUR retirement funds, but HECK, you would likely make more money flipping burgers at mcdonalds.

Steve

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seasoned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sense when has the definition of free changed to someone else paying for it?

If you are referring to ME, he said this would be based on grades in the earlier grades. REGARDLESS, a thing like community college is *******EXPENSIVE*******! It has only SEEMED cheap because so much was subsidized by the state and federal government. STILL, in ones I went to, and looked at, they CHARGED for textbooks, and THEY WERE EXPENSIVE! I mean a text book could cost over $100! Textbooks have, for at least the past several decades, changed a little each year. That made USED textbooks worth less and sometimes worth virtually NOTHING. OH YEAH, "common core" is going to change text books A LOT!

STILL, for a LEGAL STATE RESIDENT, the classes themselves were often pretty cheap, to the student. I went to several and never had to borrow a penny and I likely paid cash for most stuff.

ANOTHER thing. WHERE does it stop? A number of students go to colleges a LOT. I wish I could recall the case that happened a few years ago where a school practically got tired of a guy. It was like he was trying to attend EVERY class! He had a number of degrees, etc... And are we going to pay for food and housing ALSO? Kindergarten to 12 is VERY different since there is a goal for each grade. Once you are done with that grade, you generally don't revisit it. Once you are done with 12th, you are out. With college, you could, perhaps, go to it every day for the rest of your life. Outside of a VERY basic curriculum, there is no set goal.

Steve
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ForumGuru Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sense when has the definition of free changed to someone else paying for it?

Well, if a store does a free giveaway then it's free for you but not the store. It's still a free giveaway. As you well know, in this case it's free for the student but not free for the taxpayers.

That said, I get your drift completely!

Cheers

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

It doesn't matter If a person graduates from college If they can't find a job.

They need to focus on apprenticeships without being biased towards age.

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Cam Connor

9 years ago

"...federal government and states combining to pay the entire cost of tuition for two years at a community college for any American who wanted it."

They're PAYING for it themselves? That's so kind of them...

What value are they providing to earn this money?

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HeySal

9 years ago

There is no money for his plan. If gov wants to cut subsidizing to profitable corporations we can do it, but they can't raise taxes any further without risking tax revolt. We've been wrung dry. And if he insists on funding illegals, he's going to really stir up a hornets nest. He's already giving them more than our own citizens get in aid.

Financially challenged students had pell grants in the first place. This new freebie scam is nothing but a ruse to get the moochers back to the dem party after their loss this December.

The one thing I know will happen from my experience teaching grant students at a Jr. college is that a lot of them will just fllunk out anyway and the money to put them in classes for a semester or two until they bomb out will be wasted. This is purely another bleed on the middle class.

What needs to happen is those cows who live on welfare by dropping babies every year or two need to be sterilized. We can no longer afford to subsidize all their kids. Welfare was meant to help out in an emergency, not to support families of 5 to a dozen kids. It's getting beyond disgusting. If people need to have loads of kids, they need to start supporting them themselves.

I believe in education firmly. I don't believe, however, that a shrinking middle class can continue to support all these "programs" for people that refuse to get off their asses and get some work going unless our Cleptocracy chills out and starts using the money they are already getting for something besides lining the pockets of large corporations and their own.

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HeySal

9 years ago

Unless they are willing to drop standards, this "program" won't produce that many more grads. My experience at a Jr College was to teach grant students that were flunking out and going to lose their grants. There were a few that actually were trying but needed help - the rest were just sucking up the money because it was there and flunked out anyway. The program was almost a complete waste of time. A large number of the people getting the grants couldn't speak English well enough to "get" what was going on, even though there was a 5th grade English level requirement to get into the College. The people would attend free language courses at International Institute and apply for their grants there. Not sure how they were slipping through not being able to speak at the required level. It was hard as heck trying to teach them anything though because I had to waste time catching them up with the vocabulary.

I had several single moms that seemed to only be interested in school as far as the student union went - looking for boyfriends to take care of their kids. I had a couple of middle eastern guys that insisted I had no right to tell them to do anything because I am female (kicked them to the curb). I had a refugee from Laos that had run a concentration camp and he was just scary. There were two guys from Viet Nam whose names I couldn't pronounce so I called them Cheech and Chong and they loved it. They were smart but language challenged. They sure did work at it though and I hope they succeeded after I left. They were so lacking in English I couldn't figure out how they got into the program in the first place. After my first 2 weeks with them Chong had a language breakthrough and held a pack of cigarettes out to me and said "You want cigarette? Verry goood fuuur yew".

That's not going to change with free studentship at all - and probably will be a lot worse this time around as a lot of HS grads can't read or do math. All I can see is much of the same going on now. You will have your programs to help the people on the first program, and a lot of people not making the grade. A lot of money going down the tubes without many real-time effects that couldn't be achieved through the pell grants - more money spent on programs to back up the enrolled and flunking. More money, more admin.

Okay- about more admin. This is an attempt to centralize gov control over community colleges. They can't centralize control under the current system of giving pell grants for schooling. Why do we need a "program" like this when there are grants for 2 year students that need the funding? I'm furious that this Admin is trying to centralize education. We are not supposed to be a communist country and I think it's time they stop trying to turn it into one.

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Er Sal, the UK has had a Public Education System and National Cirriculum for years very much set by the elected government and I don't see any signs yet of us changing our name to the U.K.S.S.R

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Er Sal, the UK has had a Public Education System and National Cirriculum for years very much set by the elected government and I don't see any signs yet of us changing our name to the U.K.S.S.R

And yet your unemployment rate is about the same as ours and you still have a large number of people on welfare.
So explain to me how free education has changed things.

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

And yet your unemployment rate is about the same as ours and you still have a large number of people on welfare.
So explain to me how free education has changed things.

So people are more aware of why they are unemployed. :-)

It was never free anyway, we have higher taxes to either pay for or subsidize it,

Unemployment was less by comparison up until the crash of 2008 I believe. Recovery from that is still slow to come about worldwide.

Uk Unemployment 2007 "One of the most remarkable features of the UK economy is the sustained reduction in unemployment. Falling from a peak of 3 million in 1992, the official method of unemployment is now only 813,000 - a level not seen since April 1975." Quote from 2007

Uk Population 2007: 61.32 million

We have now just fallen back to just below 2 million unemployed but the population is around 64 million.

As with anything, if education is free but an economy tanks and all their is, is low paid wages in factories or cleaning public toilets then it has little use.

It relies on the optimistic approach that the economy is stable and robust enough and their are jobs to be had that having an education is useful to secure.

So, do we deny 9 million or more people the chance that they would not have had otherwise, not to mention the uptake of many more simply because we are gloomy, I would hope not.

It still raises the bar.

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ThomM

9 years ago

It still raises the bar.

Exactly one of the points I've been trying to make

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Exactly one of the points I've been trying to make

And you know what that means, higher stools!

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

And you know what that means, higher stools!

I didn't know it was a contest. But mine are probably higher that yours...Lots of fiber in my diet.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Claude your post seemed to have disappeared (for the moment anyways) but I get what you're saying.
The point I was trying to make is that a free 2 year degree would end up being useless in a job market, not if the person was continuing on to a 4 year degree.
Now if it was for a trade, that's a different story. But it seems in recent years the push has been away from the trades and has been more focused on technology and 4 year degrees.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Claude your post seemed to have disappeared (for the moment anyways) but I get what you're saying.
The point I was trying to make is that a free 2 year degree would end up being useless in a job market, not if the person was continuing on to a 4 year degree.
Now if it was for a trade, that's a different story. But it seems in recent years the push has been away from the trades and has been more focused on technology and 4 year degrees.

Thom; I posted and then deleted the post a minute later. Sometimes I see the post after it's posted and realize that it's off-putting.

I think the 2 years in Community College is to help with training in the trades. That's just a guess. Fewer people are becoming plumbers.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Thom; I posted and then deleted the post a minute later. Sometimes I see the post after it's posted and realize that it's off-putting.

I think the 2 years in Community College is to help with training in the trades. That's just a guess. Fewer people are becoming plumbers.

As usual I read the post before any coffee so I didn't notice if it was off putting at all

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Kay King

9 years ago

Fewer people are becoming plumbers.

And that's a shame because people keep flushing and a good plumber is hard to find....and charges quite a bit, too.

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ThomM 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

And that's a shame because people keep flushing and a good plumber is hard to find....and charges quite a bit, too.

You got that right.
I used a plumber once when I was to busy to fix the problem myself. All it involved was replace a 12in. long broken pipe and a pressure reducing valve. The first plumber did the job but I had no water pressure. The second plumber to come out couldn't figure out what was wrong after taking the valve apart. When they sent the third plumber out (an old guy) the two of us looked things over and discovered the first guy put the valve in backwards. We robbed a pipe off the old well pump and had things right in a half hour.
There aren't to many trades that I haven't done and I learned they are much more important then people think.
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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

And that's a shame because people keep flushing and a good plumber is hard to find....and charges quite a bit, too.

Plumbers, electricians, carpenters....all make big money. The problem is, the jobs aren't easy.

My dad was a great electrician. But he would crawl in attics that were so hot, he could only stay in them for 15 minutes at a time. Would you want to be a roofer in 120 degree heat? A plumber with flooded basements?

These aren't easy fun jobs. But they sure pay well, and they will always be in demand.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Plumbers, electricians, carpenters....all make big money. The problem is, the jobs aren't easy.

My dad was a great electrician. But he would crawl in attics that were so hot, he could only stay in them for 15 minutes at a time. Would you want to be a roofer in 120 degree heat? A plumber with flooded basements?

These aren't easy fun jobs. But they sure pay well, and they will always be in demand.

That's one reason they charge by the hour. And although some assignments are horrible, some are far from horrible. It would be nice if you can pick and choose, but I'm sure a boss would TREASURE a "thank you" call from a person that called with a disaster, and the person that worked on the project would be that much more likely to be appreciated.

Steve

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Sometimes I see the post after it's posted and realize that it's off-putting.

This is akin to when you look in the mirror, no?

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

This is akin to when you look in the mirror, no?

I have no mirror in my home. I simply hired a great looking man to stand in front of me, as I shave and brush my teeth, and mimic whatever I'm doing.

But lately, I've been looking in the mirror, and I see my reflection with my arms around my wife.......

I'm beginning to suspect.....

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I have no mirror in my home. I simply hired a great looking man to stand in front of me, as I shave and brush my teeth, and mimic whatever I'm doing.

But lately, I've been looking in the mirror, and I see my reflection with my arms around my wife.......

I'm beginning to suspect.....

And you suddenly realize that the face of the man has a goatee.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

And you suddenly realize that the face of the man has a goatee.

Well, duh. He said, "great looking man."

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Well, duh. He said, "great looking man."

Yes, unfortunately for you... he's of normal height....and the word Man was included.

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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

I would be all for this if the people would be guaranteed jobs.

People with 4 year degrees can't even find a job. On top of that, education prices will go even higher.

Will more higher educated people drive down wages? Likely.

I think the reason is just but the reality won't measure up. This is more of a matter of job creation. Without jobs, this won't matter, imo. If the jobs were there, I would be fully supporting this.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Thomas is bold, I'm not;

I would be all for this if the people would be guaranteed jobs.
Why does a guaranteed job have to be attached? What other program guarantees a job?

People with 4 year degrees can't even find a job. On top of that, education prices will go even higher.

The 4 year degree people have a tough time finding a job, if there is no demand for what thy trained for. A 2 year degree would likely be for tradesmen that really are in demand. What would cause education to go up in price? What would be the connection between this program and higher college prices?

Will more higher educated people drive down wages? Likely.

Why would better educated people drive down wages? Has this happened in the past?

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Thomas is bold, I'm not;

Truer words never spoken.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Truer words never spoken.

Dan; Please take off that ridiculous Santa Clause outfit in your avatar. And be nicer to me, I'm pregnant. My lawyer will be in touch.

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lanfear63 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Dan; Please take off that ridiculous Santa Clause outfit in your avatar. And be nicer to me, I'm pregnant. My lawyer will be in touch.

Seeking Child Support for a bouncing baby Dounut
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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I'm pregnant.

I always thought you were.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

One of my employees is an HVAC guy. I asked him if there was a need for plumbers. He said that plumbers, HVAC guys, electricians, are in huge demand. He said that there is a real shortage of people trained in these trades.

Maybe the program is to encourage people to get this training, to fill job openings that really exist.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

One of my employees is an HVAC guy. I asked him if there was a need for plumbers. He said that plumbers, HVAC guys, electricians, are in huge demand. He said that there is a real shortage of people trained in these trades.

Maybe the program is to encourage people to get this training, to fill job openings that really exist.

HVAC is apparently in such high demand that he's selling vacuum cleaners.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

HVAC is apparently in such high demand that he's selling vacuum cleaners.

Ha! . No, he services the heaters that I sell. He works maybe 6 hours a week total, early in the morning. He owns an HVAC company. He just does these repairs for me.

He charges $85 an hour, and is booked solid.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Ha! . No, he services the heaters that I sell. He works maybe 6 hours a week total, early in the morning. He owns an HVAC company. He just does these repairs for me.

He charges $85 an hour, and is booked solid.

You chose to ruin a perfectly good joke with facts. For shame, Claude Whitacre. For shame. #unwrittencode

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

HVAC is apparently in such high demand that he's selling vacuum cleaners.

"HVAC" selling VACuum cleaners, Brilliant! So their is a qualification.

Oh, it has been ruined. :-(

Please don't post when I'm typing!

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

"HVAC" selling VACuum cleaners, Brilliant! So their is a qualification.

Oh, it has been ruined. :-(

Please don't post when I'm typing!

YEAH, it SOUNDS like that! DUMB ACRONYM! It MEANS:

Heating
Venting
Air
Conditioning

So it is VERY important to a home. There are a LOT of codes that affect it. There are a lot of things to think about. It ALSO touches on electrical, GAS, and Drainage.

Steve

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

YEAH, it SOUNDS like that! DUMB ACRONYM! It MEANS:

Heating
Venting
Air
Conditioning

So it is VERY important to a home. There are a LOT of codes that affect it. There are a lot of things to think about. It ALSO touches on electrical, GAS, and Drainage.

Steve

Steve, Ian knows what it stands for. He was making a joke based on similarity.

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Claude Whitacre 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Steve, Ian knows what it stands for. He was making a joke based on similarity.

Riffle;

It would have been funnier if you would have let Steve's post, stand...unchallenged. You chose to ruin a perfectly good joke with facts. For shame, Dan Riffle. For shame
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- Dan Riffle 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  Riffle;
  
  Let's face it, humor is Steve's kryptonite.
  
  Yes, we need to upload a "funny bone" patch to his software.
  
  Edit: Looks like somebody altered his post...
  
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  Claude Whitacre 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Yes, we need to upload a "funny bone" patch to his software.
  
  Edit: Looks like somebody altered his post...
  
  Yup. Claude changed his post. The minute Claude uploaded his post, he realized that it would be funnier if he taunted you, rather than teasing Steve.
  
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seasoned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Steve, Ian knows what it stands for. He was making a joke based on similarity.

OK, JUST SAYING...

Steve
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Kay King

9 years ago

We're going to read about quite a few big plans - but they can't go anywhere because we can't afford them. Even the people proposing them know that.

So - last week it was free community college for all.

This week's big idea:

Mandatory paid family leave and paid sick days.

Never mind 66% of workers now have paid sick leave - everybody gets it.

Never mind that the "family leave act" is the most abused piece of "workers rights" to come along in a long while....let's pay people their salary while they take 3 months off a year...and while the employer has to pay someone ELSE to work that job for three months.

(or, as the case was where I worked, where other employees have to work extra to make up for the person who takes 3 months off EVERY year).

Can hardly wait to see what the "giveaway of the week" is next week.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

So - last week it was free community college for all.

This week's big idea:

Mandatory paid family leave and paid sick days.

Never mind 66% of workers now have paid sick leave - everybody gets it.

Never mind that the "family leave act" is the most abused piece of "workers rights" to come along in a long while....let's pay people their salary while they take 3 months off a year...and while the employer has to pay someone ELSE to work that job for three months.

(or, as the case was where I worked, where other employees have to work extra to make up for the person who takes 3 months off EVERY year).

Can hardly wait to see what the "giveaway of the week" is next week.

Other European countries have similar programs. While I share the idea of getting paid when you work, there may be reasons for the proposal, other than just making lazy people happy.

The two ideas put forth in the last week, are very sketchy. We have very few details to go on.

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Dan Riffle 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Will more higher educated people drive down wages? Likely.

Why would better educated people drive down wages? Has this happened in the past?

In a manner of speaking, yes. A more educated populace does not mean there will be more jobs requiring higher education. As such, increased job requirements tend to trickle down, not up. A job that once required a high school diploma now requires a college degree due to the increased pool of educated candidates. This job doesn't pay any better than it did when it only required a diploma. Hence, wages for the more highly educated shrink.
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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Thomas is bold, I'm not;

I would be all for this if the people would be guaranteed jobs.
Why does a guaranteed job have to be attached? What other program guarantees a job?

What is the point of this program if it is not for attaining good paying jobs. There are plenty of older people who enjoy taking classes for the love of learning but I don't think the tax payers should be paying for such hobbies.

Maybe the idea, behind this program, is that more jobs will come because of a higher educated work force but I don't see that happening with this program.

People with 4 year degrees can't even find a job. On top of that, education prices will go even higher.

The 4 year degree people have a tough time finding a job, if there is no demand for what thy trained for. A 2 year degree would likely be for tradesmen that really are in demand. What would cause education to go up in price? What would be the connection between this program and higher college prices?

There was a time when a 4 degree was good enough, in itself, to attain a job. You showed you were trainable and stuck with it enough to attain the degree. The type of degree wasn't as important.

Those days are obviously long gone because there are more and more people getting degrees. Now employers can easily look for more strict qualifications which makes many degrees worthless.

My sister is a lawyer. There was a time simply being a lawyer meant a lot of money. That law field got swamped with people looking for a lot of money so now it doesn't pay nearly as well. Finding jobs are becoming more difficult as well. My sister's employer is suppose to go out of business this year. Hopefully I was successful talking her into going solo after this.

We are already seeing a bubble around higher education. Easy loans, more people, higher costs. This will just increase that bubble by adding more people.

Will more higher educated people drive down wages? Likely.

Why would better educated people drive down wages? Has this happened in the past?

See Dan's response. I would only be repeating him.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

What is the point of this program if it is not for attaining good paying jobs. There are plenty of older people who enjoy taking classes for the love of learning but I don't think the tax payers should be paying for hobbies.

.

I believe that there is already a demand for skilled tradesmen. Plumbers, electricians, welders, etc. The training would help fill the demand, that already exists, for those skills.

That's just based on some quick research. I could be completely wrong here.

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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I believe that there is already a demand for skilled tradesmen. Plumbers, electricians, welders, etc. The training would help fill the demand, that already exists, for those skills.

That's just based on some quick research. I could be completely wrong here.

How many people can be added to these fields before there is saturation?

Health field is huge but the amount of people going into them is saturating those jobs. At least locally, the people able to get good jobs in healthcare has diminished and will continue to do so. That is why I mentioned the law field and what happened there.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

How many people can be added to these fields before there is saturation?

I see your point. But most high school graduates won't qualify for the program, or take advantage of it. It is still an effort , after all.

And you're probably a parent (It's a guess, but a good one), and so are most of us.

Would you rather have a 21 year old kid with a 2 year degree? Or without a 2 year degree? Even if they get a job away from their field, they are better educated.....and the effort itself would make them more productive, I would think.

Of course, if they get a 4 year degree, or better, none of this applies.

I would have better arguments.. one way or the other, if I cared enough to research the President's proposal, and research which job categories had the most demand.

As far as the real impact one way or the other, on the economy...or job availability...who really knows? We are (on this thread) mostly arguing about what might happen.....

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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And you're probably a parent (It's a guess, but a good one), and so are most of us.

Are you saying I impregnated women in different countries? You been talking to people?

My name is now Dan Riffle.

No, I am not a parent besides my almost 4 year old lab. Luckily, he didn't want to go to college.

Would you rather have a 21 year old kid with a 2 year degree? Or without a 2 year degree? Even if they get a job away from their field, they are better educated.....and the effort itself would make them more productive, I would think.

I don't trust university anymore. It's too much politics and trying to push agendas instead of teaching what needs to be taught.

While I would pay for them to go and encourage them to do so, I would play a very active role in their education no matter if they chose to attend or not.

As far as the real impact one way or the other, on the economy...or job availability...who really knows? We are (on this thread) mostly arguing about what might happen.....

Sure, we are speculating but the ole supply and demand tends to be something we can count on.

It would be interesting subject to watch.

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seasoned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Will more higher educated people drive down wages? Likely.

Why would better educated people drive down wages? Has this happened in the past?

In absolute terms? NO WAY! WHO WOULD CARE ANYWAY!?!?!?!?

In relative terms? ABSOLUTELY! RELATIVE terms, in case you haven't guessed, is like:

UNSKILLED WHITE COLLAR

EARLIER:

$2.00 $6.00 (REAL WAGE=REAL WAGE= $2

LATER

$4.00 $20.00 (NORMALIZED REAL WAGE=$1.2)

So wages climb, but the value DROPS! Some jobs that used to be relatively high income don't even exist anymore. They have single apps today that can get rid of entire departments. Of course there are machines that do the same sort of thing, etc.... HECK, the job of "teacher" is hanging by a thread.

Steve
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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Thom; I posted and then deleted the post a minute later. Sometimes I see the post after it's posted and realize that it's off-putting.

I think the 2 years in Community College is to help with training in the trades. That's just a guess. Fewer people are becoming plumbers.

There is already an admin initiative to help with training folks for trades and I have a feeling this also works rights along side of it - if it is ever implemented.

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NeedBucksNow

9 years ago

Wonder if this will make any difference at all since it looks like this program is only made for illegal aliens & people that may not be able to fully understand English enough to graduate anyways. Seems like they would do more to help dropouts, teenage moms & people working minimum wage jobs as these are the ones that may truly need it. Once you get on your own in life & start having real responsibilities you might want to actually go back to school to better yourself but have trouble affording it or be worried about paying back student loans once you are finished. All well, Thank God for the internet & think in the next 10 years ALOT more people will be interested in starting IM

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seasoned

9 years ago

ANOTHER THING that must be considered! NO real standards for a degree, and a lack of transference! You could be at one college, and pass courses with the highest grades in your class. If you transfer to another college, before attaining the degree or certification it is for, you may find that you have to do essentially the same class all over again, or find that it was a total waste!

As for the federal government, they are trying to pollute some industries with their own propaganda and policies. This may be ANOTHER attempt to do that. Community colleges, last I knew, were NOT expensive! Even today, it doesn't seem that bad. In fact, it looks like, if you want, you COULD go to college here for less than $-1600! They have a $5500 loan that apparently EVERYONE, not otherwise qualified, is qualified for. They say the tuition is simply $3,560 for the next year. If I had a DESTITUTE family that had NOTHING to offer, you want to take a stab at how much it would cost? COME ON, TAKE A GUESS!!!!!!

Estimated Cost of Attendance:
Tuition & Fees $3,560
Room & Board (Off Campus w/ Parents) $2,048
Books & Supplies $1,090
Other Expenses $3,600
Transportation: $1,808
Personal Expenses: $1,792
Total $10,298
Estimated Gift Aid for: 2013-2014
Federal Gift Aid $5,645
Federal Pell : $5,645
State Gift Aid $2,736
Indiana State Grant : $2,736
Institutional Gift Aid $800
Estimated Total Gift Aid: $9,181
Estimated Net Price
After Gift Aid:
$1,117
Estimated Self Help Aid
Federal Direct Subsidized Loan $1,117
Remaining Costs After Self Help Aid: $0

This INCLUDES various charges that apparently aren't needed, but the student STILL ends up paying NOTHING to go to college! Some may be loans, but even if ALL were loans, it is reasonable. A person could pay it back in a couple years with no sweat, assuming that it was of any value.

Steve

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SteveJohnson

9 years ago

Anyone ever wonder if there is a correlation between the 'income gap' and the focus on training ('scuse me - "educating") young people to be conformist job-seekers instead of encouraging and teaching entrepreneurship, personal responsibility, risk taking, and a "whatever it takes" attitude?

I looked through a catalog of a local CC the other day, thinking I might sign up for some classes on woodworking or something. What I saw in most of the general studies courses dismayed me, frankly. It was stuff I learned in high school - grammar and composition, algebra, history.

My jr. high and high schools in the early and mid-70s had a number of vocational courses - home construction, woodworking, metalworking, welding, auto shop. Is there a high school in the country that has any of those any more?

Not everyone is an intellectual, and it does a disservice to those who aren't to try to shoehorn them into attempting to be.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

My jr. high and high schools in the early and mid-70s had a number of vocational courses - home construction, woodworking, metalworking, welding, auto shop. Is there a high school in the country that has any of those any more?

Not everyone is an intellectual, and it does a disservice to those who aren't to try to shoehorn them into attempting to be.

I will assume the US doesn't anymore. Germany has TRADITIONALLY had things like you describe. Outside of the almost classist nature, it seems perfect. They have a traditional school program, like the US, and then it SPLITS and deviates from the US. ONE path goes towards college prep. You can go STRAIGHT to college if you want, the final exam(abitur) to graduate is effectively the german version of the SAT. The other path is vocational, like you describe, and has apprenticeship programs, etc...

Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for social classes, I don't think they are obviously so.

Forgive me if I got anything wrong, but that is how I understand it.

ANOTHER thing! In the US, you can BUY credits! Maybe the federal government shouldn't pay another dime until you have like 24 college credits! The REALLY diligent and lucky can get those for FREE by taking AP courses. The others can simply pass a test for like $150, and get a number of credits! Some non english speakers, like mexicans, should get a boost here! Mexicans, for example, can take both spanish tests, for about $300, and get 18 credits! They would ALSO earn 6 units of baccalaureate credit! The same thing goes for french and german speakers. For some reason, the language tests have the most credit of any test. MOST only have 3 credits.

This ALSO saves the student time! In a few hours they can get rid of spending all that time in the related course.

Steve

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Kay King

9 years ago

I looked through a catalog of a local CC the other day, thinking I might sign up for some classes on woodworking or something. What I saw in most of the general studies courses dismayed me, frankly. It was stuff I learned in high school - grammar and composition, algebra, history.

Today they are "community colleges" - but they used to be "junior colleges". They were far easier to get into - students with grades that wouldn't get them into a selective college could always get accepted to "junior college".

Mainly they taught the basic college courses (the 'core curriculum') so for many students were a catch up from goofing off in high school. Costs were cheaper and students could often live at home while attending classes.

They are useful schools. My Granddaughter did her first two years at a community college because she could work and take night classes. She had no problem transitioning to a major university for the last two years to pursue her major. She wanted to avoid students loans - and she did.

She said at the time - and I agree - the community colleges would be more useful if they had courses in "real skills" for trade jobs.

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Kay King

9 years ago

Steve - Student loans are reasonable only if the person is pursue a useful course of study (one where there are jobs to be had) and if the student does not take out more loans than the pay for his eventual job can cover.

I'm seeing a totally different side of education this year. My Grandson heads for college next fall - has already been accepted and has a scholarship and grants due to academic achievement. He's planning 6 years and going straight for an MBA. He's also likely to have further grants from sports groups. His girlfriend has a full ride scholarhsip at the Air Force Academy and plans an AF career. She wants to build bridges and roads and other infrastructure. Their friends are the same - they are jocks with high grades and big plans for the future. Though two of these kids see themselves having "my own business" eventually - not a single one of them thinks "only working online" sounds interesting at all. I got a kick out of that.

I think sometimes we forget there are kids like this - high achievers making their own way and earning what they get. I think the students most at risk are those in the middle. Those kids not good enough academically to get big scholarships but not poor enough to get govt aid either.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Steve - Student loans are reasonable only if the person is pursue a useful course of study (one where there are jobs to be had) and if the student does not take out more loans than the pay for his eventual job can cover.

Isn't that part of my point? We shouldn't be paying for the DRECK! I saw your earlier post about colleges. Actually, NOW, they cover what could be looked at as THREE areas!

YEAH, they have little dinky community classes, that are good for those interested in a hooby or something, and for certificates in some jobs.

And YEAH, they cover some highschool subjects some may have missed.

They DO also cover real college classes that you likely would't ever see in highschool.

I'm seeing a totally different side of education this year. My Grandson heads for college next fall - has already been accepted and has a scholarship and grants due to academic achievement. He's planning 6 years and going straight for an MBA. He's also likely to have further grants from sports groups. His girlfriend has a full ride scholarhsip at the Air Force Academy and plans an AF career. She wants to build bridges and roads and other infrastructure. Their friends are the same - they are jocks with high grades and big plans for the future. Though two of these kids see themselves having "my own business" eventually - not a single one of them thinks "only working online" sounds interesting at all. I got a kick out of that.

I think sometimes we forget there are kids like this - high achievers making their own way and earning what they get. I think the students most at risk are those in the middle. Those kids not good enough academically to get big scholarships but not poor enough to get govt aid either.

Yeah, that is one reason why I said that the ones that stand to benefit the most from the plan discussed in this thread are the richer of the poor. I am all for a "free" education. I wish they had it when I was going to school. I have seen quality drop, and prices go up. I have seen the result in business. At this point, I don't trust the government AT ALL. You want the US to become a hated, untrusted, uneducated, 3rd class country? The QUICKEST way is to let the government do all they want. Read Agenda 21 sometime, YIKES! But it is targeted PRIMARILY at places like the US, australia, western europe, etc....

Steve

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seasoned

9 years ago

It is funny. Glenn Beck touched on this a few days ago on a show he had. He used cars to illustrate the point. An OLD 1950s era truck he always wanted to have, because his father did, and his wife got him as a present. He mused that he thought it was sexist to not have his mother drive it, etc.... TODAY he says he doesn't blame her. Even HE wouldn't want to drive it, with no power anything, etc.... Practically EVERY male wanted to work on them though! 25 years later, it looks no different, but has power everything, and is STILL serviceable. 15 years later, and it is MUCH harder to service, and contained. Little has REALLY changed, but it is FAR less serviceable. 5 years later(2015), fully enclosed, and almost NOBODY can get into it.

Oh yeah, he asked a newer guy to show him how to rebuild a starter motor, IIRC, and the guy laughed and said it costs $2 more to replace, so NOBODY rebuilds anymore! In short, if it is broken, just throw it away, and buy new.

Of course, even with a CAR, SOMEONE must install the new part, and it is the same with a house. And knowledge that was useful 5 years ago might not be useful NOW.

People say technology, and they think electronics, but even HVAC technology has changed in the last 10 years! Granted it isn't quite as obvious, and may often not be so extreme, but it HAS changed.

Steve

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garyv

9 years ago

I don't think it should be "free" (of course that term is loosely used). But I could possibly see a loan program, where no one can be denied a college loan, under the agreement that it comes out of their future paychecks. And then if it does become worthwhile to send everyone to college, then there will come a point in time where this program would essentially fund itself. It would also to help deter students from spending money on non-essential courses.

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seasoned

9 years ago

#FreeCommunityCollege â€" You Morons Can't Afford...

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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

The WSJ is also not found of the proposal but media matters counters...

WSJ Uses Bad Numbers To Wipe Away Downside Of For-Profit Colleges | Research | Media Matters for America

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SteveJohnson 9 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

The WSJ is also not found of the proposal but media matters counters...

Of course they did.
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seasoned

9 years ago

Say what you want, but COLLEGE does NOT equal education! THINK ABOUT IT! If it DID, it would NEVER exist! It is ironic! It turns out that Wozniak didn't learn much of what he learned in school! The SCHOOLS hated that wozniaks side projects HE DID HIMSELF, were causing them grief, so they got him to go to sylvania(IIRC), and he learned THERE about simplicity and computers!

Did Watt learn about power? Did Ohm learn about resistance? Did faraday learn about capacitance, and the connection between magnetism and power? Did the colleges create math? Language? COLLEGE? NOPE! So you can see there is LITTLE connection! HECK, I didn't learn any of that in schools. I learned things that WEREN'T taught in schools. My father worked for IBM and THEY taught him.

Steve Wozniak: The High School Years - YouTube

Well, the connection between the two is shrinking. They have changed from imparting KNOWLEDGE to getting MONEY.

In a way, it is a lot like insurance! Insurance is NOT health care! Like College, it was supposed to make things CHEAPER! For COLLEGE, it was SUPPOSED to be KNOWLEDGE in LESS time! For INSURANCE it was supposed to be RECOVERY for LESS MONEY and hassle!

And it is AMAZING how someone thinks the US government can do better than the private industries when the government has NO experience in it and are the PRIMARY PROBLEM!

WHO CARES how much it COSTS when "IT" is lower quality, or doesn't exist? I mean ANYONE here can buy a car for FREE! Look hard enough, and you CAN! You USED to be able to do this even EASIER, but a while back some junk yards realized that such cars were SO WORTHLESS and the PARTS sometimes had more value than the ENTIRE CAR, that they created the PICK A PART type stores! They also sell insurance at low cost that covers almost nothing.

https://www.google.com/search?num=10...37.98Cx5dxB4qg

OH, and CORPORATIONS are getting wise to this! FORGET about degrees and the like. That only slightly improves the chance that they will look at your resume. GET READY to be TESTED! WHY? Because they KNOW that a class means NOTHING!

Anyway, I am all for reasonable help for college. But we already have that here. And this IS IRONICALLY, needed primarily because HIGHSCHOOL has gotten worse! People are "graduating" highschool that can't even read or do basic math! I spoke to teachers teaching 3rd grade and up that said they have illiterate kids, and they don't want to make them feel bad, etc.... They aren't concerned with helping them read.

The U.S. Illiteracy Rate Hasn't Changed In 10 Years

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Steve

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LV1203

9 years ago

Would be awesome if it's true. Being an american with 2 working parents making "decent" money, I was never eligible for any help which is wrong. Why is it that you only get a free ride if your parents don't make good income?

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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

Originally Posted by LV1203

Would be awesome if it's true. Being an american with 2 working parents making "decent" money, I was never eligible for any help which is wrong. Why is it that you only get a free ride if your parents don't make good income?

From the link...

"If adopted nationwide, administration officials estimate 9 million people across the country could save about $3800 in college costs. It would probably benefit middle-class students more than the very poorest, who qualify for federal Pell grants that usually cover the cost of community college.

People of any age would be eligible for the program."

With this program proposal, folks gets community college free.

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by LV1203

Would be awesome if it's true. Being an american with 2 working parents making "decent" money, I was never eligible for any help which is wrong. Why is it that you only get a free ride if your parents don't make good income?

If you TRULY make decent money, this plan will NOT give you a "free ride". At best, you MIGHT break even.

And this IS for COMMUNITY college! Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, etc... are NOT included in this!

Steve

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revolusi

9 years ago

I didn't know it was a contest

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seasoned

9 years ago

Milton Friedman - Should Higher Education Be...

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dvm3

9 years ago

One of the reasons why people enlist in the military is due to the GI Bill so they can attend college. How do you think Obama's brilliant idea will go over with veterans who sacrificed for their country to earn that benefit? How would it affect enlistment rates?

Also, the pain of actually having to pay for college makes you work hard toward you degree. If you don't take it seriously, you're throwing money down the drain. That incentive to work hard in college won't be the same when you're getting it for free.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by dvm3

One of the reasons why people enlist in the military is due to the GI Bill so they can attend college. How do you think Obama's brilliant idea will go over with veterans who sacrificed for their country to earn that benefit? How would it affect enlistment rates?

The GI bill is better and more flexible, and going to college would not be a reason that most people go into the military. The military is about the only job you can go into where the job becomes what can be the whole of your life, and you are paid for it. Other things are already paid for. They may train you in various things to facilitate your job, and try to get you in the best shape you can be. You may not be paid enough to be rich, but many have gotten contacts and benefits that they have used to become rich. So the idea of a free community college probably won't affect enlistment that much.

Also, the pain of actually having to pay for college makes you work hard toward you degree. If you don't take it seriously, you're throwing money down the drain. That incentive to work hard in college won't be the same when you're getting it for free.

That is certainly true. I'm sure MOST that go to college have silly degrees that wouldn't get them far. I've just seen TOO MANY such people.'

Steve

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President Obama Proposes To Make Community College Free and Universal

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