Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than Us

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Boy, there is a whole heap of truth in this article. The US and UK have spent the past 25+ years replacing genuine industry with paper industry - money making money, while Germany's production has flourished. We have a serious lesson to learn.

Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S. | Alternet
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

    Boy, there is a whole heap of truth in this article. The US and UK have spent the past 25+ years replacing genuine industry with paper industry - money making money, while Germany's production has flourished. We have a serious lesson to learn.

    Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S. | Alternet
    Good article on why the average German will be living much better than the average American if America does not change its recent 30 year public policy over emphasis (that started about 1980 in earnest) on the wealthy and large corps - instead of helping the middle class help itself.

    I believe there is a middle ground that most Americans would be satisfied with but I'm not so sure regarding the wealthy and the corps. Which IMHO, would be a top tax rate of about 45% - not 90 or 70% and the rescinding of the extra gravy for them put into in the tax code since about 1980.

    Sure the Germans pay more than the average American in total taxes but they receive lots of real nice lifestyle benefits in exchange IMHO.

    IMHO, these next 10 or so years may set the table for the next 50 years for the living standards of the average peoples of the U.S., but in the life of a nation 10 years is not a long time.

    BTW...

    I also believe the German leaders are trying their best to make up for all the hell they put their people through since the turn of the 20th century and are doing a great job and don't care what other folks say.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Good article on why the average German will be living much better than the average American if America does not change its recent 30 year public policy over emphasis (that started about 1980 in earnest) on the wealthy and large corps - instead of helping the middle class help itself.
      ODD that you should say this! They only RECENTLY set a national minimum wage:

      German minimum wage rings in Happy New Year for millions - Business Insider

      Shared housing there is POPULAR! So it cuts down housing costs! They have had TIERED education, and, after trying 12 years, like the US, are likely going to go back to 13, if they haven't already. They ALSO have the old apprentice style trade system.

      At one point, the largest software company in the world was GERMAN! ALAS, they are now only the worlds largest BUSINESS software company, and third overall worldwide by revenue:

      SAP SE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      I believe there is a middle ground that most Americans would be satisfied with but I'm not so sure regarding the wealthy and the corps. Which IMHO, would be a top tax rate of about 45% - not 90 or 70% and the rescinding of the extra gravy for them put into in the tax code since about 1980.
      MIDDLE GROUND? We left that LONG AGO! 45% TOP? NO WAY, and that is FAR from middle!

      Sure the Germans pay more than the average American in total taxes but they receive lots of real nice lifestyle benefits in exchange IMHO.
      The GERMANS, for the most part CAN BE TRUSTED! They have had balanced amendments and are now looked at by europe for money. WHY!?!?!?!?!? Because THEY are balanced and do well with it!

      ALSO, their insurance system is more like ours was, than is: Healthcare in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


      IMHO, these next 10 or so years may set the table for the next 50 years for the living standards of the average peoples of the U.S., but in the life of a nation 10 years is not a long time.

      BTW...

      I also believe the Germans are trying their best to make up for all the hell they put their people through since the turn of the 20th century and are doing a great job and don't care what other folks say.
      GIVE ME A BREAK! They have SEVERAL parties that want a lot of crazy things. MERKEL, a relative CONSERVATIVE, didn't want to institute the minimum wage, for example, but the center LEFT guys INSISTED, or they would provide gridlock. The FIRST reign was relatively decent. Because of certain incidents, we had WWI. The world, in retaliation tried to obliterate it through some IDIOTIC MOVES, not unlike what MANY are trying to do in the US, RIGHT NOW, and created the SECOND reign. A WWI corporal that was in the hospital during the 2nd reign decided to join a group and HE created a coup to come up with the THIRD reign, that you refer to. That ended when he was defeated in WWII. Check out youtube sometime. There are GERMAN people there that say they don't even want to THINK about WWII. That wasn't THEM. They say if you ask an honest question, they will answer but if you really push it, you will be a pariah.

      They are where they might have been if that idiotic "treaty", in the 2nd reign, were never signed, etc... It IS ironic that TODAY they are helping out countries that are in the same position that they were FORCED into back then. You know, companies like Greece, and perhaps even france and the UK, who knows. If not for that, that corporal might have found work assembling cars or something, and that group may have never existed! But NOOOOOOOOO! People wanted them bankrupt, defenseless, and to pay everyone even money they didn't have. YEAH, how did THAT work out? Even TODAY, they world is TEETERING on total destruction because of the era that created!

      OH, and Germany was one of the world leaders in nuclear technology and is now decommissioning ALL of their nuclear power plants. I don't believe ANYONE asked them to do so. They did it ONLY to prevent a disaster like what happened with that JAPANESE reactor.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        ODD that you should say this! They only RECENTLY set a national minimum wage:

        German minimum wage rings in Happy New Year for millions - Business Insider

        Shared housing there is POPULAR! So it cuts down housing costs! They have had TIERED education, and, after trying 12 years, like the US, are likely going to go back to 13, if they haven't already. They ALSO have the old apprentice style trade system.

        At one point, the largest software company in the world was GERMAN! ALAS, they are now only the worlds largest BUSINESS software company, and third overall worldwide by revenue:

        SAP SE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



        MIDDLE GROUND? We left that LONG AGO! 45% TOP? NO WAY, and that is FAR from middle!



        The GERMANS, for the most part CAN BE TRUSTED! They have had balanced amendments and are now looked at by europe for money. WHY!?!?!?!?!? Because THEY are balanced and do well with it!

        ALSO, their insurance system is more like ours was, than is: Healthcare in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




        GIVE ME A BREAK! They have SEVERAL parties that want a lot of crazy things. MERKEL, a relative CONSERVATIVE, didn't want to institute the minimum wage, for example, but the center LEFT guys INSISTED, or they would provide gridlock. The FIRST reign was relatively decent. Because of certain incidents, we had WWI. The world, in retaliation tried to obliterate it through some IDIOTIC MOVES, not unlike what MANY are trying to do in the US, RIGHT NOW, and created the SECOND reign. A WWI corporal that was in the hospital during the 2nd reign decided to join a group and HE created a coup to come up with the THIRD reign, that you refer to. That ended when he was defeated in WWII. Check out youtube sometime. There are GERMAN people there that say they don't even want to THINK about WWII. That wasn't THEM. They say if you ask an honest question, they will answer but if you really push it, you will be a pariah.

        They are where they might have been if that idiotic "treaty", in the 2nd reign, were never signed, etc... It IS ironic that TODAY they are helping out countries that are in the same position that they were FORCED into back then. You know, companies like Greece, and perhaps even france and the UK, who knows. If not for that, that corporal might have found work assembling cars or something, and that group may have never existed! But NOOOOOOOOO! People wanted them bankrupt, defenseless, and to pay everyone even money they didn't have. YEAH, how did THAT work out? Even TODAY, they world is TEETERING on total destruction because of the era that created!

        OH, and Germany was one of the world leaders in nuclear technology and is now decommissioning ALL of their nuclear power plants. I don't believe ANYONE asked them to do so. They did it ONLY to prevent a disaster like what happened with that JAPANESE reactor.

        Steve

        The problem in America isn't so much what people know; the problem is what people think they know that just ain't so. - Will Rogers
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          The problem in America isn't so much what people know; the problem is what people think they know that just ain't so. - Will Rogers
          Take that to heart!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Take that to heart!

            Steve

            Well, the German model is working well for the average German and the American switch to the "Supply-Side" model has never worked for the average American - and I don't think that can be argued.

            Why don't you just admit a couple of things...



            #1: You don't give a rats behind about the fate of the average American.

            #2: You believe the already wealthy are simply better people than everyone else and even deserve the extra tax break gravy flung their way since the 1980s.

            Just admit it.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Well, the German model is working well for the average German and the American model is no longer working for the average American and I don't think that can be argued.
              I was NOT arguing it ONE BIT! Did you EVER see me say that? *******EVER*******!?!?!?!? I LIKE their educational system. You know who obviously wants to do it his OWN way and DESTROY any good in ours. He is NOT copying the german model, Not ONE bit! I LIKE their way of dealing with the economy. AGAIN, You know who HERE is doing the OPPOSITE! GREECE ALREADY TRIED IT, and look where THEY ended up! I LIKE their insurance system. AGAIN, it is DIFFERENT from what YOU KNOW WHO gave us!

              BTW you know WHY the american model is "no longer working"? IT CAN'T! IT HAS BEEN TRASHED! Your making that argument HERE NOW is like someone saying that to a german during the WEIMAR REPUBLIC(AKA 2nd reich, or 2nd reign).

              If you like Germany SOOOOOO much, why are you SO FOR someone that is AGAINST it!?!?!?!?

              Why don't you just admit a couple of things...

              #1: You don't give a rats behind about the fate of the average American.
              Get your face out of the mirror. That is YOU!

              #2: You believe the already wealthy are simply better people than everyone else and even deserve the extra tax break gravy flung their way since the 1980s.
              NOPE! I just admit that our DISHONEST government doesn't deserve even HALF their salary. Do YOU know that they get ADVANCED notice of ALL rules, and can even suggest rules and use them as poison pills, so they KNOW what will happen? A lot of THAT should be illegal, but they do it ALL THE TIME! If the average citizen knew that, and traded on it, they would have to declare things and it would still be ILLEGAL! The punishment could even be losing your CAREER and being JAILED for DECADES! Well, THEY don't have to declare anything, and are allowed to trade on it, with NO punishment!

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              #1: You don't give a rats behind about America.
              There 'ya go. Fixed that for you!

              Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                There 'ya go. Fixed that for you!

                Cheers. - Frank
                Well, ***I*** read it the way you wrote it, because, long term, they are the SAME thing, but TL meant it the OTHER way because, short term, it might appear that they way I want it is bad for the really poor(what he calls AVERAGE) american.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  Well, ***I*** read it the way you wrote it, because, long term, they are the SAME thing, but TL meant it the OTHER way because, short term, it might appear that they way I want it is bad for the really poor(what he calls AVERAGE) american.

                  Steve


                  For the record:

                  When I say "average American" I'm talking about Americans who are not already independently wealthy and...

                  ...according to this article small business creation in Germany isn't all that robust but that's how they're rolling nowadays.

                  http://www.internationalentrepreneur...urope/germany/


                  Here's an article about a recent German gov initiative to help generate more entrepreneurs in the society...

                  http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancen..._1019192.shtml
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Why don't you just admit a couple of things...



              #1: You don't give a rats behind about the fate of the average American.

              #2: You believe the already wealthy are simply better people than everyone else and even deserve the extra tax break gravy flung their way since the 1980s.

              Just admit it.
              Okay, I admit it!

              #1 I don't give a rats ass about the average (?) American politician.
              - I can recommend 4 that should be publicly executed for treason.

              #2 I believe that everybody would be "simply better people" if the aforementioned politicians would quit stealing our money to pay for the aforementioned gravy... Or forcing us to buy gravy we don't want.

              Joe Mobley
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                Okay, I admit it!

                #1 I don't give a rats ass about the average (?) American politician.
                - I can recommend 4 that should be publicly executed for treason.

                #2 I believe that everybody would be "simply better people" if the aforementioned politicians would quit stealing our money to pay for the aforementioned gravy... Or forcing us to buy gravy we don't want.

                Joe Mobley

                I think you should own up and "come out" with your true feelings about the average American. Its OK, you may even inspire the others to come out publicly and then you can revel in your role in American history.

                As I have told a few of your colleges at the WF...

                You're so wrong about so many things that...


                ...If these were revolutionary times, you'd be a tory. (working for the Brits)


                So carry on ole chum.


                Ps. Your economic philosophy absolutely, historically, sucks big time when it comes to the fortunes of the average American and no amount of belligerent ignorance can overcome that fact and the numbers that make it so.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  I think you should own up and "come out" with your true feelings about the average American. Its OK, you may even inspire the others to come out publicly and then you can revel in your role in American history.

                  As I have told a few of your colleges at the WF...

                  You're so wrong about so many things that...


                  ...If these were revolutionary times, you'd be a tory. (working for the Brits)


                  So carry on ole chum.


                  Ps. Your economic philosophy absolutely, historically, sucks big time when it comes to the fortunes of the average American and no amount of belligerent ignorance can overcome that fact and the numbers that make it so.
                  You truly ARE delusional.

                  Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


                  ...If these were revolutionary times, you'd be a tory. (working for the Brits)
                  If the choice is between Obama/sharpton and the "Brits", you're probably right.


                  Joe Mobley
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                    If the choice is between Obama/sharpton and the "Brits", you're probably right.


                    Joe Mobley

                    I'm glad you had the courage to admitted it, now if only Seasoned would admit it too.


                    And once again, your economic philosophy historically sucks out loud for the average American, but has worked wonders for the already wealthy.

                    Why not also admit that the above doesn't bother you one little bit?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      I'm glad you admitted it, now if only Seasoned would admit it too.
                      TL, I'm only curious but what is your definition of a Tory and a labour party member?

                      Or are you talking about the original Tories, the 1800 lot that were loyal to the monarchy? I'm assuming it's this one and not a modern day member of the Conservative party?

                      Seriously not arguing, I'm genuinely not following this awfully well.

                      (My new avatar sums up my current expression)
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                      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                        TL, I'm only curious but what is your definition of a Tory and a labour party member?

                        Or are you talking about the original Tories, the 1800 lot that were loyal to the monarchy? I'm assuming it's this one and not a modern day member of the Conservative party?

                        Seriously not arguing, I'm genuinely not following this awfully well.

                        (My new avatar sums up my current expression)
                        When I talk about tories in the American revolution I'm talking about folks who were among the American population that wanted to stay with the king.

                        Interestingly enough, 1/3 of the people in America were for the king, 1/3 wanted independence and 1/3 didn't really care one way or the other - until the Benedict Arnold (not Cumberbatch) incident which swung most of the people who didn't care one way or the other - to the side of the rebels.

                        After the war, about 100K tories emigrated to Canada but most remained behind.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                          Right. I'm with it again.

                          Didn't realise that about the Canadians either, thanks.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                          When I talk about tories in the American revolution I'm talking about folks who were among the American population that wanted to stay with the king.
                          I am part of the current American population who Does NOT want to stay with the current King and Queen of America, Barack Obama and al sharpton.



                          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                          Interestingly enough, 1/3 of the people in America were for the king, 1/3 wanted independence and 1/3 didn't really care one way or the other - until the Benedict Arnold (not Cumberbatch) incident which swung most of the people who didn't care one way or the other - to the side of the rebels.
                          There may be an interesting corollary in that, until the al sharpton (not Al Roker) incidents which might swing enough American voters to the other side.

                          We'll see.

                          Joe Mobley
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                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                            I am part of the current American population who Does NOT want to stay with the current King and Queen of America, Barack Obama and al sharpton.





                            There may be an interesting corollary in that, until the al sharpton (not Al Roker) incidents which might swing enough American voters to the other side.

                            We'll see.

                            Joe Mobley
                            Since you have the same economic philosophy as Rush Limbaugh, I'll link you to him OK?

                            BTW...

                            He's a man whos views are so repugnant even the NFL does not want to be associated with him.

                            We'll see you on election days and once again your economic philosophy sucks for the average American but works like gangbusters for the already wealthy and you don't seem to care right?
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                            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                              Since you have the same economic philosophy as Rush Limbaugh, I'll link you to him OK?
                              I can't answer that as I do not listen to Rush or his show.

                              Instead of trying to demonize me by linking me to someone you find "repugnant", why don't you try linking to some examples that might support your economic viewpoints?


                              Joe Mobley
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                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                                I can't answer that as I do not listen to Rush or his show.
                                That's OK, HE can't either, because HE doesn't!

                                Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


      I believe there is a middle ground that most Americans would be satisfied with but I'm not so sure regarding the wealthy and the corps. Which IMHO, would be a top tax rate of about 45% - not 90 or 70% and the rescinding of the extra gravy for them put into in the tax code since about 1980.
      Of course the middle ground for me would be the rescinding of the extra gravy flung into social programs since about the 1960's.

      Joe Mobley
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

    Boy, there is a whole heap of truth in this article. The US and UK have spent the past 25+ years replacing genuine industry with paper industry - money making money, while Germany's production has flourished. We have a serious lesson to learn.

    Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S. | Alternet
    Well, the US could learn a lot from the US ALSO! It isn't what it was! As for unions, apparently the unions in Germany appreciate the companies and the companies, in turn, appreciate THEM. Look at that german company several months ago that lamented the lack of such a system here.

    As for the work week, I think the US had like the 1st or 2nd longest of ANY! NOW, thanks to the idiotic definition added 1/1/2014, the US NOW has about the SHORTEST! At least "OFFICIALLY"! It is NOW "officially" 30hours/week.

    World's shortest work weeks - More - CNNMoney

    29 Netherlands
    30 US
    33 DENMARK/NORWAY
    34 IRELAND
    35 GERMANY/SWITZERLAND/BELGIUM
    36 SWEDEN/AUSTRALIA/ITALY

    Our OLD work week standard was 40 hours. REMEMBER! Minimum wage is a WAGE!!!!!!! It is based on HOURS! How does the minimum wage in the US look NOW?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael75065
    Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

    Boy, there is a whole heap of truth in this article. The US and UK have spent the past 25+ years replacing genuine industry with paper industry - money making money, while Germany's production has flourished. We have a serious lesson to learn.

    Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S. | Alternet

    Thank you for this article US is sinking fast soon will be like mexico and no middle class

    Very scary and sad. We don't make anything anymore all now is a service oriented society Not good at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW you should consider that I haven't been making a note of all the cases, but there are several that happened even in the past 5 YEARS! There HAVE been countries that had a TINY TASTE of the 2nd reign type environment and I believe ALL had a healthy taste of the 3rd reign. If you look REAL hard, most of the flags even look similar. The names of the groups are very different, and in the various languages. And they ALL have ONE thing in common, besides the fact that they have the bad economy. They are NOT GERMAN, and don't even SPEAK german.

    So HEY, maybe if the you know what really hits the fan, germany will be finally over the WWII garbage. WWIII looks like it is going to look very similar.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      ANOTHER THING, HOW do they determine a low wage? A good wage in the US may NOT be a good wage in germany! They have VAT, higher taxes, etc... Last time I checked the wage in DENMARK, through a poll of danish people in denmark that I did myself, they were paid the SAME as americans!!!!!!!! That was true EVEN though the minimum wage was about double, in dollar terms!

      OH, and greece is GREECE! You really don't have to say much more!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        ANOTHER THING, HOW do they determine a low wage? A good wage in the US may NOT be a good wage in germany! They have VAT, higher taxes, etc... Last time I checked the wage in DENMARK, through a poll of danish people in denmark that I did myself, they were paid the SAME as americans!!!!!!!! That was true EVEN though the minimum wage was about double, in dollar terms!

        OH, and greece is GREECE! You really don't have to say much more!

        Steve

        Would you like to know where the study came from? Check with Morgan Stanley.

        You can cast doubt on the methodology of the study - if you like.

        I wouldn't be surprised if the study is very close to portraying the actual situation in the countries listed in relation to each others currencies and cost of living etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Three things the average German doesn't have to worry about...


    1: Money to send their kids to higher education.

    2: A health care bill destroying their finances.

    3: A non-decent financial life in their golden age of retirement.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Three things the average German doesn't have to worry about...


      1: Money to send their kids to higher education.
      Well, that is NOT exactly true! SOMEONE decided things were TOO burdensome, and lifted the ban imposed some time ago. RECENTLY, like LAST YEAR, they reinstated the ban. But let the following article sink in:

      There Is No Such Thing As A Free College Education - Forbes

      STILL, Germany had a better setup from the get go!

      Remember how I said "Formal education" does NOT equal education? In 1933 the COLLEGES kind of secretly realized that, or at least ONE did, HARVARD. So they ended up with what today is called the SAT. EVENTUALLY, around 30 years ago, STATES started creating different tests for all the highschools they had. WHAT A MESS!!!!! Germany will NEVER have to worry about that! In 1788 they made it a national law that every student taking the college prep route has to take the NATIONAL abitur to pass highschool, and IT is accepted at all of their colleges.

      HECK, they started talking about bringing back the 13 year because too many people didn't pass the abitur. If ONLY the US had such thought!

      2: A health care bill destroying their finances.
      WE didn't either until a few years ago! But YEAH, germany's reform happened in 2007, and last years rates climbed very little. OURS SKYROCKETED! MY insurance went up nearly THIRTY FOUR times as much as the german insurance did! Facts about Germany: Medical care for everyone

      It is a SHARED plan, and likely does NOT include taxes on the very items NEEDED for healthcare! Taxing items, like the new taxes in the US, RAISES costs and thus PRICES!

      3: A non-decent financial life in their golden age of retirement.
      Read that last article again! WHY are PRIVATE pension plans becoming more important?

      Facts about Germany: Social security

      OK, ONE statement is VERY TELLING:
      The increasing proportion of elderly people in the population in conjunction with a relatively low birth rate and trends in the labor market have pushed the social security system to its very limits.
      Keep in mind, that THEY pay almost TWICE as much for what they get, AGAIN, SHARED, like OURS! And it is likely that most of the able bodied germans WORK!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
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    Germans are the true Aryan Master Race. The cream of the crop.
    It took the combined might of the western world to stop them taking over the world, twice.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

      Germans are the true Aryan Master Race. The cream of the crop.
      It took the combined might of the western world to stop them taking over the world, twice.

      The U.S. alone could have stopped them in both world wars.


      In the first WW we broke a stalemate between the belligerents and in the 2nd we truly saved the day for western Europe.


      I guess you have no idea of the war industrial capacities of the U.S. - combined with a large population.

      Also, the Russians defeated them during WW2, so what you're saying isn't factually true.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        The U.S. alone could have stopped them in both world wars.


        In the first WW we broke a stalemate between the belligerents and in the 2nd we truly saved the day for western Europe.


        I guess you have no idea of the war industrial capacities of the U.S. - combined with a large population.

        Also, the Russians defeated them during WW2, so what you're saying isn't factually true.
        I think it was a lot closer than you think. The Germans virtually had Russia but the super cold winter was a significant factor in their downfall.

        If Germany had taken the UK, (which they did not thanks to the Spitfire) using us as a staging post for the D Day Invasion would have been impossible and American troops would have had no nearby place to group and stage their attacks. Their was no other plan aside from D Day.

        The way things went were fortuitous for everyone, if the timing of the tech development had been in the Germans favour a little more we could be seeing a very different world map. Germany developing jet planes first for example and of course the development of the atom bomb would have been game over.

        It was a close call, WW2.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          I think it was a lot closer than you think. The Germans virtually had Russia but the super cold winter was a significant factor in their downfall.

          If Germany had taken the UK, (which they did not thanks to the Spitfire) using us as a staging post for the D Day Invasion would have been impossible and American troops would have had no nearby place to group and stage their attacks. Their was no other plan aside from D Day.

          The way things went were fortuitous for everyone, if the timing of the tech development had been in the Germans favour a little more we could be seeing a very different world map. Germany developing jet planes first for example and of course the development of the atom bomb would have been game over.

          It was a close call, WW2.
          I hear you!

          Were the Germans really that close to actually developing an Atomic weapon - like before the Americans?

          If the answer is no, (then without the aid the the big equalizer ie; an Atomic weapon,) Germany would not have won a war with America. Lots of men lots of machines and smart leadership.

          England was the best staging ground but I don't think it was the only one the U.S. could have used. I have a feeling the U.S. would have made it work from North Africa, or even near Italy or anywhere they had to.

          The Brits valiantly hung on and won The Battle Of Britain, but if America would have stayed out of the war in Europe, it could be argued that all the Germans would have done was to bid their time, maybe not do the blunder in Russia, collect the resources of their conquered territory and make run after run until even the Brits couldn't take it anymore due to the resource situation.

          But I have a feeling the British oligarchy would have come out A-OK even with the German occupation. How is the pound worth a lot more than the dollar again?

          But America did enter the war in Europe after Hitler declared war on the U.S., the U.S. turned the tide and in many ways saved the world and the same way Germany would have built lots more planes than the Brits, I mean even more than it was during the Battle Of Britian, we would have simply worn the Germans down, as we eventually did over the skies of Europe to clear the way for D-Day.

          Russia is one tough country also and I'm not so sure they wouldn't have eventually turned around the Nazi advance even without the aid of winter.

          They built a whole lot of tanks to match the German onslaught and were willing to sacrifice as many men as necessary to protect Mother Russia.

          BTW...

          Have you seen the movie Enemy At The Gates?

          Everybody did the best they could do. The French got run over but DGaule insisted that he and only he, lead the Army in the liberation of Paris - at least walking into Paris to reclaim the city. (I'm not sure how much real fighting they did)

          I heard there were 31 real attempts on his life. And I hear Hitler ordered the destruction of Paris but the general in charge wouldn't do it.

          And...

          Lucky for this planet (in so many ways) the Nazis did not win that war.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          I think it was a lot closer than you think. The Germans virtually had Russia but the super cold winter was a significant factor in their downfall.

          If Germany had taken the UK, (which they did not thanks to the Spitfire) using us as a staging post for the D Day Invasion would have been impossible and American troops would have had no nearby place to group and stage their attacks. Their was no other plan aside from D Day.

          The way things went were fortuitous for everyone, if the timing of the tech development had been in the Germans favour a little more we could be seeing a very different world map. Germany developing jet planes first for example and of course the development of the atom bomb would have been game over.

          It was a close call, WW2.
          Yeah, if Germany had, *****ALONE***** attacked the US early in WWII, the US would likely be speaking german now as its primary language, and be a possession of germany. Of course, it likely took a while for germany to get here, and they were kept busy in europe. So YEAH, the idea of the US being such a monster is GARBAGE!

          It is reminiscent of a story I heard about a father going through a museum and telling his young child about WWII. The young kid said *****HOW?***** WHY didn't ISRAEL do something?

          The answer, of course, is that ISRAEL DIDN'T EXIST!!!!!! Well, in early WWII, the US, as the monstrous behemoth, DIDN'T exist! ALSO, the US was kind of neutral. It wasn't until Japan bombed the ships at pearl harbor that the US really started ramping up. And it WAS simply RAMPING UP! They hired WOMEN for mechanical industries! That was virtually unheard of, but most of the men were in the war. They likely broke every record they ever had. And that was close to 80 years ago. They also issued bonds, to get money from citizens, and they collected waste to be recycled, to make up for the lack of materials.

          And apparently ****THREE**** places were trying to develop the nuclear bomb, and apparently all were close. Ironically, the area in ALL THREE cases had some kind of attack or misfortune. Japan and Germany were set behind, and the US wasn't. WHO KNOWS what could have happened. OH, and RADAR? Apparently that was developed by the BRITISH, though the germans first used it, in WWII! The breaking of code? That technique was developed and done in BRITAIN. Apparently the Polish people had a hand in first creating it.

          Germany created a lot of technology that is still being developed today. And the US and europe are taking their time and have laws limiting things, so Germany could have done in a year what may take us a decade or more. IMAGINE if they created a fighter/bomber with the speed of the concord! They WERE headed there. The allies were still using prop driven planes.

          So a lot of key things were done in EUROPE!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Yeah, if Germany had, *****ALONE***** attacked the US early in WWII, the US would likely be speaking german now as its primary language, and be a possession of germany. Of course, it likely took a while for germany to get here, and they were kept busy in europe. So YEAH, the idea of the US being such a monster is GARBAGE!

            It is reminiscent of a story I heard about a father going through a museum and telling his young child about WWII. The young kid said *****HOW?***** WHY didn't ISRAEL do something?

            The answer, of course, is that ISRAEL DIDN'T EXIST!!!!!! Well, in early WWII, the US, as the monstrous behemoth, DIDN'T exist! ALSO, the US was kind of neutral. It wasn't until Japan bombed the ships at pearl harbor that the US really started ramping up. And it WAS simply RAMPING UP! They hired WOMEN for mechanical industries! That was virtually unheard of, but most of the men were in the war. They likely broke every record they ever had. And that was close to 80 years ago. They also issued bonds, to get money from citizens, and they collected waste to be recycled, to make up for the lack of materials.

            And apparently ****THREE**** places were trying to develop the nuclear bomb, and apparently all were close. Ironically, the area in ALL THREE cases had some kind of attack or misfortune. Japan and Germany were set behind, and the US wasn't. WHO KNOWS what could have happened. OH, and RADAR? Apparently that was developed by the BRITISH, though the germans first used it, in WWII! The breaking of code? That technique was developed and done in BRITAIN. Apparently the Polish people had a hand in first creating it.

            Germany created a lot of technology that is still being developed today. And the US and europe are taking their time and have laws limiting things, so Germany could have done in a year what may take us a decade or more. IMAGINE if they created a fighter/bomber with the speed of the concord! They WERE headed there. The allies were still using prop driven planes.

            So a lot of key things were done in EUROPE!

            Steve

            You said...

            So YEAH, the idea of the US being such a monster is GARBAGE!


            I say...


            Are you saying that the industrial might and huge population of the American nation would not have been able to defeat Germany in WW1 or WW2?
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Are you saying that the industrial might and huge population of the American nation would not have been able to defeat Germany in WW1 or WW2?
              Had Britain fallen then no, possibly not, given that we were also expending tremendous resources in the Pacific. What would have probably defeated them would have been the detonation of nuclear weapons, not the industrial might and huge (?) population of the US.

              Without Britain, North Africa would likely have been under Axis control and unavailable for staging an assault on continental Europe (as one of your scenarios supposed). The defeat of Axis forces in North Africa was almost entirely the achievement of Britain and General Montgomery; the US played only a small role, toward the end. Had Britain not been around to achieve that...

              Without having to defend North Africa, the Axis would have been free to concentrate more of its resources on the Eastern Front which would have been devastating for Russia. Even after Stalingrad, if Germany had not had its hands tied in Africa, the war in the east could easily have had a very different outcome.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                Had Britain fallen then no, possibly not, given that we were also expending tremendous resources in the Pacific. What would have probably defeated them would have been the detonation of nuclear weapons, not the industrial might and huge (?) population of the US.

                Without Britain, North Africa would likely have been under Axis control and unavailable for staging an assault on continental Europe (as one of your scenarios supposed). The defeat of Axis forces in North

                Africa was almost entirely the achievement of Britain and General Montgomery; the US played only a small role, toward the end. Had Britain not been around to achieve that...

                Without having to defend North Africa, the Axis would have been free to concentrate more of its resources on the Eastern Front which would have been devastating for Russia. Even after Stalingrad, if Germany had not had its hands tied in Africa, the war in the east could easily have had a very different outcome.


                Without the combined resources of Europe at their disposal, the Germans would not have had a chance under any circumstance - in a conventional war against the U.S. - IMHO.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              You said...

              So YEAH, the idea of the US being such a monster is GARBAGE!


              I say...


              Are you saying that the industrial might and huge population of the American nation would not have been able to defeat Germany in WW1 or WW2?
              I don't recall about WWI, but definitely NOT in WWII! Look at all the effort the US had to go to to do JUST what they did! And look at what they did! And that was WITH the other countries fighting germany. They slowed germany down a LOT! They hit major sites! They found a way to get advanced notice! They broke the code, and came up with a SYSTEM to break the codes CONSTANTLY!

              The US entered late, SCRIMPED to get the money! They SALVAGED to get the materials. They hired HOUSEWIVES to get the labor! They had to build weapons at an INCREDIBLE rate! REMEMBER, there were NO COMPUTERS! NO JETS! NO AUTOMATION TO SPEAK OF!

              The US was perhaps the ONLY country in the war that was not directly affected.

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              Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author alistair
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        The U.S. alone could have stopped them in both world wars.
        Sorry, I just wanted to know whether this was a joke or whether you're serious because I can't make my mind up.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by alistair View Post

          Sorry, I just wanted to know whether this was a joke or whether you're serious because I can't make my mind up.
          FYI... I was talking about the U.S. alone, being able to defeat Germany - in both world wars.

          Why is that hard for you to believe?
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            FYI... I was talking about the U.S. alone, being able to defeat Germany - in both world wars.

            Why is that hard for you to believe?
            You ARE the guy that was talking about how great germany is, RIGHT? Do you have ANY idea about their history? A LOT of the things we use today could be traced in big part to THEM! HECK, WWII they gave us a LOT of things, including JETS! Britain was more prepared, and closer, than the US was, and THEY were stunned!

            Germany was the most hated, and was attacked a LOT, and yet their military suffered HALF the losses and civilians lost one TENTH as many. So YEAH, the US would have been in trouble. HECK, in the battle of the bulge, the US tried a spot that nobody thought anyone expected. It turned out Germany was prepared, and fought them well. The US managed to keep enough of the area and germany wasn't allowed to prepare for the counter attack, as hitler didn't allow it, so the counter attack succeeded. But that was only ONE area. There were other countries taking care of the other fronts. Ironically, they were better prepared.

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            FYI... I was talking about the U.S. alone, being able to defeat Germany - in both world wars.

            Why is that hard for you to believe?
            It's hard for me because Germany had all the leading scientists back then. The Nazi scientists all came to the US after we (the world) vanquished Hitler's armies.

            Not saying I know for sure if we could or couldn't have on our own. We had a great generation of very brave warriors back then. Seems that with the scientific edge, though, we might not have gotten by without the help just on the basis of pure masses of manpower needed. Hitler's army was pretty massive, too.
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  • Profile picture of the author QueenMelanie
    In reality,most countries are a lot better than the US
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by QueenMelanie View Post

      In reality,most countries are a lot better than the US
      Blatantly wrong.

      If you'd said "Most OECD countries are a lot better than the US", you may have had a point.

      There are around 200 nations on Earth and the US ranks in at least the top 50 for most outcomes, so it is obvious that "most" countries are a lot worse off than the US.
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      Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
      It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    You have to remember that East Germany was under communist control until 1989. Those people know political danger firsthand and keep much closer tabs on what their officials do in office the Americans did. We've been sold to large corps for a long time now - and people are just now starting to notice.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      You have to remember that East Germany was under communist control until 1989. Those people know political danger firsthand and keep much closer tabs on what their officials do in office the Americans did. We've been sold to large corps for a long time now - and people are just now starting to notice.
      You have that right. East Germany became like some far off alien! IMAGINE! The Germans had a WELL DESERVED reputation, and I mean one built over hundreds of years. Even today, they do pretty well at living up to it. But EAST Germany was like a BIZARRO version of Germany. They had different expectations, work ethics, etc..... The culture changed SO much. You want a GREAT example of this? OK!

      Let's look at CARS! WEST GERMANY was KNOWN for cars! INVENTED the car! When the wall fell, they had Mercedes, BMW, VW,AUDI and at least a couple others, as well as what the rest of the world had. EAST GERMANY? Well, they had the TRABANT! Trabant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      And VW even ended up buying the trabant plant back, though they were forced to sell it during the split.

      Even WEST GERMANY was afraid of east Germany's effect on the culture and economy.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator


    1980 seems to be another watershed year for another negative economic statistic in American history.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Average income GROWTH? Interesting. AGAIN, I question the source, but who was in control from 2009-2012? I mean that is BAD! The average worker LOST money, so they got an average pay CUT, of approximately 15%!?

    Steve
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