ONLY in the "new" "us"!

9 years ago

IMHO, there should be no mercy shown on the high school level in any sport.

That coach for the destroyed team is IMHO a big giant wimp.

This is a perfect case of PC gone wild.

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kenmichaels

9 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

IMHO, there should be no mercy shown on the high school level in any sport.

That coach for the destroyed team is IMHO a big giant wimp.

This is a perfect case of PC gone wild.

I just had that same conversation with a group yesterday.

Maybe its because of how i was raised. However I feel the same as you do.

And I pretty much pissed everyone in the group off by saying so.

I think mercy rules do harm vrs help anyone.

I don't see any "mercy" rule in this game we call life.
So why then, are conditioning our kids to expect it.
- Huge disservice to them (imho) of course
- Reinforces the "victim" mentality, laziness and ton of other crap-tastic values

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seasoned

9 years ago

Yeah, if I see ANY real benefit in sports, it is to have a goal that people strive to BEAT! In doing so, they create a NEW goal for those that come later.

If you fake the goal, and set it too high by lying or cheating, or setting it too low by lying or holding back, you do ALL a disservice.

There WAS a time when I think all would have at least agreed with the SPIRIT of what I just said.

Steve

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Sorry, Limey in the thread.

One team beats another by a big margin and their coach gets suspended?

Have I missed something where sport is concerned? Or is there some strange thing about not winning by big amounts in High Schools?

I'm confused and I have had a coffee this morning.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Sorry, Limey in the thread.

One team beats another by a big margin and their coach gets suspended?

Have I missed something where sport is concerned? Or is there some strange thing about not winning by big amounts in High Schools?

I'm confused and I have had a coffee this morning.

They DID pass rules a while back that such teams are supposed to limit margins. It is the SAME excuse they give for not encouraging kids in various grades to read.

http://www.lakewood.org/Documents/Co...ALL_RULES.aspx

All games will be rally scoring, played to 25 points and must be won by a two point margin, max
to 27 (Game can end 27-26).

Can The Mercy Rule Actually Make Things Worse?

The Northern California Federation Youth Football League changed its mercy rule dramatically to prevent teams from winning by large margins. If a team in the league, which has players between the ages of 7 and 13, wins by 35 points or more, the coach gets a one-week suspension and the team gets fined $200. "It's not hurting the kids, it's teaching them compassion for the other team," said Robert Rochin, the deputy commissioner for the league. "It's teaching them sportsmanship." Rochin claims their new mercy rule is a pro-active attempt to keep more kids interested in the sport for longer

Steve

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Richard Van 9 years ago

I'm sure they probably have something equally silly here but I can't I see the point.

Imagine if they did this with boxing.

"All fights will be 12 rounds and not a round less, will be decided on points and so long as there's only a one point margin there will be a winner, anymore or a knockout will result in disqualification and a ban".
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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Richard, winners are no longer allowed to win by too wide a margin. It harms the sensitive proclivities of the losers and scars them for life. Of course, now we have a generation of children raised this way. They have no idea how to accept failure in life, which, in my opinion, is why we see more and more mass shootings. These kids break mentally when they realize the world is actually a cold, hard place that doesn't revolve around them.

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Richard, winners are no longer allowed to win by too wide a margin. It harms the sensitive proclivities of the losers and scars them for life. Of course, now we have a generation of children raised this way. They have no idea how to accept failure in life, which, in my opinion, is why we see more and more mass shootings. These kids break mentally when they realize the world is actually a cold, hard place that doesn't revolve around them.

I'm sure I've heard of something similar here too. I think it's in little school in races. Something about there not being a winner and everyone is a winner for taking part.

This world is very different for the younger generation than when I grew up.

You've probably got a point about the mass shooting too. Such a nice shiny protected environment to grow up in then reality hits.

Sadly, meanwhile in Islamic State, they bring there kids up a lot tougher.

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Devil's advocate post...

Did any of you folks participate in any sports? Do you remember what sports are supposed to teach young people? When I was a player we were supposed to learn good sportsmanship from the sports we played.

Running up the score when victory is completely assured has been considered poor sportsmanship for as long as I can remember, at least where I'm from. Putting a good whooping on an opponent is one thing, beating them 161-2 is far beyond a good whooping, it's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

The coach of the winning team could have taught his team a valuable lesson, that once you have someone totally and utterly defeated, you don't keep kicking them just because you can.

The coach is an ass ... in my opinion, of course.

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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Devil's advocate post...

Did any of you folks participate in any sports? Do you remember what sports are supposed to teach young people? When I was a player we were supposed to learn good sportsmanship from the sports we played.

Running up the score when victory is completely assured has been considered poor sportsmanship for as long as I can remember, at least where I'm from. Putting a good whooping on an opponent is one thing, beating them 161-2 is far beyond a good whooping, it's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

The coach of the winning team could have taught his team a valuable lesson, that once you have someone totally and utterly defeated, you don't keep kicking them just because you can.

I don't know where some of the other people played, but back in my day it was considered bad sportsman like behavior. I know I look young but there are some years on this pretty face.

The coach is an ass ... in my opinion, of course.

Dennis, same here. It was about playing a good game not so much about making the other team look bad. When we were up, considerably, my coaches would play the whole bench and it was more relaxed.

Reading about this story, this winning coach continued a full court press throughout the whole game. He decided he wanted to play practice for a future game that had a tougher competitor. That wasn't a place to do so, imo.

Even back when I was playing school sports, running up the score like that was considered unsportsmanlike.
I agree he was an ass.

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whateverpedia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Devil's advocate post...

Did any of you folks participate in any sports? Do you remember what sports are supposed to teach young people? When I was a player we were supposed to learn good sportsmanship from the sports we played.

Running up the score when victory is completely assured has been considered poor sportsmanship for as long as I can remember, at least where I'm from. Putting a good whooping on an opponent is one thing, beating them 161-2 is far beyond a good whooping, it's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

The coach of the winning team could have taught his team a valuable lesson, that once you have someone totally and utterly defeated, you don't keep kicking them just because you can.

The coach is an ass ... in my opinion, of course.

Plus it also discourages the kids on the losing side from participating in sports again. "Might as well sit on our asses eating junk food than go through that humiliation again."

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kenmichaels

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Devil's advocate post...

Did any of you folks participate in any sports? Do you remember what sports are supposed to teach young people? When I was a player we were supposed to learn good sportsmanship from the sports we played.

Running up the score when victory is completely assured has been considered poor sportsmanship for as long as I can remember, at least where I'm from. Putting a good whooping on an opponent is one thing, beating them 161-2 is far beyond a good whooping, it's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

The coach of the winning team could have taught his team a valuable lesson, that once you have someone totally and utterly defeated, you don't keep kicking them just because you can.

The coach is an ass ... in my opinion, of course.

Hi bud

Hope your feeling better.

I played football, soccer, basketball and baseball.
( I was only good at football)

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Dennis, same here. It was about playing a good game not so much about making the other team look bad. When we were up, considerably, my coaches would play the whole bench and it was more relaxed.

Reading about this story, this winning coach continued a full court press throughout the whole game. He decided he wanted to play practice for a future game that had a tougher competitor. That wasn't a place to do so, imo.

Even back when I was playing school sports, running up the score like that was considered unsportsmanlike.
I agree he was an ass.

My coaches taught us friendly games between peers was for fun ...
The rest was war.

When it was over we had to go back to being civil - even when we lost.

Maybe my perspective comes from the fact I was never on a team
that was totally dominated - nor did we ever crush anybody like in the OP.

We kicked butt and we got our butts kicked - but never like that
so maybe I just don't know how bad it can be for a kid.

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Plus it also discourages the kids on the losing side from participating in sports again. "Might as well sit on our asses eating junk food than go through that humiliation again."

Whenever i got my ass kicked - I got mad and did better and was more focused.
-- maybe that's just me, imho I think ALL kids need at least one or two
real utter crushing defeats in life - when they are youngish. Other wise
how do you learn to deal with it - because unless your born with a silver
spoon then you know it's coming -

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Who said ANYTHING about trying to make the other team look bad? It has happened in sports since the BEGINNING, and ALL THROUGH RECORDED HISTORY! A team will have bad luck, or simply be poorly matched, and will lose big time. But to stop a game, or limit your effort, simply because the other team is having problems isn't the right thing to do.

I didn't say anything about making the other team look bad. I see Thomas has a line about that where he quoted me, but that line isn't in my post and never was. Looks like Thomas is having some fun with us.

Steve, the coach didn't have to continue a full-court press the whole game, and he could have instructed his players to milk the shot clock. There are ways to limit the damage and still let his players compete. They'd learn something about sportsmanship that way, which is one of the primary selling points of junior high and high school sports. At least it used to be.

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Hi bud

Hope your feeling better.

Thanks! I am feeling better, but far from 100% yet. Still, any improvement is welcome.

... imho I think ALL kids need at least one or two
real utter crushing defeats in life - when they are youngish. Other wise
how do you learn to deal with it - because unless your born with a silver
spoon then you know it's coming -

I'm not saying they don't, but the winning team could have score half the points they did and it would have still be a crushing defeat at 80-2, and at the same time the winning coach could have taught his team a lesson in good sportsmanship.

That's just my opinion, though. I didn't necessarily expect anyone to change their mind or even agree with me for that matter, given the tone of the posts before mine. I just wanted to offer another perspective.

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whateverpedia 9 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Whenever i got my ass kicked - I got mad and did better and was more focused.

A fair point if it doesn't happen on a regular basis. The occassional whipping is definitely character building. If it happens constantly though, a "why bother" attitude becomes almost inevitable.

On the other side of the coin, what happens to the the kids on the winning side who regularly dish out whippings to their competition.

That can lead to complacency and an un-natural belief that they will win every time. Imagine the "trauma" they'll suffer from when they finally get their asses handed to them.
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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

My coaches taught us friendly games between peers was for fun ...
The rest war war.

When it was over we had to go back to being civil - even when we lost.

Maybe my perspective comes from the fact I was never on a team
that was totally dominated - nor did we ever crush anybody like in the OP.

We kicked butt and we got our butts kicked - but never like that
so maybe I just don't know how bad it can be for a kid.

I guess I was lucky with the coaches I had. They worked our asses off in practice and built up our self esteem in other ways without having to blow out other teams 161 -2.

If we lost we knew there would be some painful practices in our future.

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Hi bud

Hope your feeling better.

I played football, soccer, basketball and baseball.
( I was only good at football)

My coaches taught us friendly games between peers was for fun ...
The rest was war.

When it was over we had to go back to being civil - even when we lost.

Maybe my perspective comes from the fact I was never on a team
that was totally dominated - nor did we ever crush anybody like in the OP.

We kicked butt and we got our butts kicked - but never like that
so maybe I just don't know how bad it can be for a kid.

Whenever i got my ass kicked - I got mad and did better and was more focused.
-- maybe that's just me, imho I think ALL kids need at least one or two
real utter crushing defeats in life - when they are youngish. Other wise
how do you learn to deal with it - because unless your born with a silver
spoon then you know it's coming -

But sports isn't war.

I'm glad my Grandmother taught me about sportsmanship and how being a good winner was often tougher than being a good loser and how each was important. And that winning was NOT the only thing that mattered in sports.

Mercy rules are hardly new. There were mercy rules in effect when I first started playing Little League in the mid 60s.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Devil's advocate post...

Did any of you folks participate in any sports? Do you remember what sports are supposed to teach young people? When I was a player we were supposed to learn good sportsmanship from the sports we played.

Running up the score when victory is completely assured has been considered poor sportsmanship for as long as I can remember, at least where I'm from. Putting a good whooping on an opponent is one thing, beating them 161-2 is far beyond a good whooping, it's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

The coach of the winning team could have taught his team a valuable lesson, that once you have someone totally and utterly defeated, you don't keep kicking them just because you can.

The coach is an ass ... in my opinion, of course.

Who said ANYTHING about trying to make the other team look bad? It has happened in sports since the BEGINNING, and ALL THROUGH RECORDED HISTORY! A team will have bad luck, or simply be poorly matched, and will lose big time. But to stop a game, or limit your effort, simply because the other team is having problems isn't the right thing to do.

I recently read about Anna kournikova(SP?), and the article spoke about how she was one of the most famous players even though she never made the top 10. And at one point, MANY places in Germany spoke of boris becker, and Steffi graf! They said things like BRAVO STEFFI and BORIS has a future! Was this intended to hurt all those that would NEVER get to that point? Tennis, like many sports, has groups, or players, that are to compete against one another, based on their winning in each tournament. Although, matched up differently, the outcome would likely be different, the top two compete in a game to be #1. MOST never even make it to the lowest recognized ranking. There are ALWAYS going to be losers.

Good sportsmanship is playing fair, and not being cocky. It does NOT mean you lose, or sacrifice points. And HEY, if you play longer, doesn't the other side have a better chance of turning the tables? If it is so bad for them, they can concede.

And doesn't it give the TRUE athletes a reason to improve their game?

Steve.

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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

I've played plenty of organized sports.

Questions???

What's the fallout from not trying while engaged in a game?

- In football should one team just run the ball into the line or better yet take a knee on each play and then punt to the destroyed team?

- In basketball should people miss shots on purpose?

- In baseball should batters strike out on purpose?

- What about the right of a team to work on their game?

I somewhat understand taking it easy on those not in high school with mercy rules, but I don't believe that courtesy should be extended to those in the high school ranks and above.

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Tom B

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I've played plenty of organized sports.

Questions???

What's the fallout from not trying while engaged in a game?

- In football should one team just run the ball into the line or better yet take a knee on each play and then punt to the destroyed team?

- In basketball should people miss shots on purpose?

- In baseball should batters strike out on purpose?

- What about the right of a team to work on their game?

I somewhat understand taking it easy on those not in high school with mercy rules, but I don't believe that courtesy should be extended to those in the high school ranks and above.

This team continued a full court press even when it was impossible for the other team to come back.

Supposedly, the coach was using this game as practice for a future, more competitive team.

As Dennis pointed out, running the clock out and stopping the full court press isn't the same thing as not engaging.

Running the clock out is done at all levels in sports. Hardly new.

No one said to purposely miss shots or to purposely turn over the ball.

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I've played plenty of organized sports.

Questions???

What's the fallout from not trying while engaged in a game?

- In football should one team just run the ball into the line or better yet take a knee on each play and then punt to the destroyed team?

- In basketball should people miss shots on purpose?

- In baseball should batters strike out on purpose?

- What about the right of a team to work on their game?

I somewhat understand taking it easy on those not in high school with mercy rules, but I don't believe that courtesy should be extended to those in the high school ranks and above.

TL, I never said anything about missing shots on purpose. They could have worked on other parts of their game. There are times when it's desirable to slow the game down and work the clock. They could have practiced that. They didn't have to full-court press the whole game. There will be times they want to work on their half-court game instead.

This coach was just running up the score. Even in professional sports most teams do things to avoid running up the score too badly. In the NFL teams will run the ball to run down the clock instead of going for 40 yard pass plays. In baseball most players quit trying to steal bases or bunt for hits when the game has turned into a rout.

This coach displayed poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.

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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

TL, I never said anything about missing shots on purpose. They could have worked on other parts of their game. There are times when it's desirable to slow the game down and work the clock. They could have practiced that. They didn't have to full-court press the whole game. There will be times they want to work on their half-court game instead.

This coach was just running up the score. Even in professional sports most teams do things to avoid running up the score too badly. In the NFL teams will run the ball to run down the clock instead of going for 40 yard pass plays. In baseball most players quit trying to steal bases or bunt for hits when the game has turned into a rout.

This coach displayed poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.

Ok, once the score got out of hand, the coach could have at least allowed the other team to get the ball past half court but then what happens?

Because if you can't get the ball up the court, I don't see you running much offense when you do get the ball past half court. The likely turnover is only delayed by 10-20 seconds.

In the NFL teams will run up the score nowadays, especially if their opponents are in the same conference and the same division because points scored is one of the tie-breakers for who wins the division and for seeding in the playoffs.

Major league baseball in particular shows bad sportsmanship when a team is getting pounded they start throwing at the batters. Most of the fights in MLB revolve around a team getting the crap beat out of them and then they start throwing at the other teams' batters.

Other fights start because a particular player is rock'n the other teams' pitching and now the pitchers get orders to start throwing at that batter.

Now that's great sportsmanship.

Have you ever heard of a brush back pitch AKA chin music? As far as I'm concerned that's always been very unsportsmanlike conduct.

I still believe...

There is no need to show any mercy in high school, college or the pro level of sports.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

From the article:
"I didn't play any starters in the second half," he added. "I didn't expect them to be that bad. I'm not trying to embarrass anybody."

This isn't the first time Arroyo Valley has so thoroughly dominated a matchup. The girls' team has won its previous four games by 70 points or more. As for Bloomington? They had already lost a game by 91 points. "

I think this may be an example of old school versus new school. Play to win versus play to 'participate'.

Perhaps Bloomington needs a new coach?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The closest I've come to such a score run up is in grade school, back yard touch football (US mode).
Nobody on the losing team seemed to get totally bent out of shape over the score of 56-7.
And I don't think we intentionally ran the score. Too young to think about it - just played.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I find a lot of people - 30ish and under roughly - who used to work for my hotel seemed to think they
get to decide what work tasks they will do or not do. Granted, it's not a high paying, professional job, but
I think the PC stuff leads to this decline in ethics and work ethics. And not working as a team. And
gaming the benefits system, but buying the 55" TV.

I have a new guy working as a housekeeper and without my asking him, he actually picked up the
trash bags from the other housekeepers on his way to the trash dumpster. Seriously - a pleasant
surprise instead of 'it's not from my rooms'.

Dan

PS - (and more importantly) I am glad you are feeling better Mr. Dennis.

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Dennis Gaskill 9 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

From the article:
"I didn't play any starters in the second half," he added. "I didn't expect them to be that bad. I'm not trying to embarrass anybody."

And apparently he didn't care once he realized how bad they were, because he didn't make any game strategy adjustments to avoid totally humiliating them.

I think this may be an example of old school versus new school. Play to win versus play to 'participate'.

I don't see this as a "PC" issue at all. This would have been called poor sportsmanship when I was in school 45 years ago -- which was my original point. Nothing to do with PC, and everything to do with respecting your opponent, no matter how bad they may be.

Maybe I'm just getting old.
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- Richard Van 9 years ago
  
  So the mercy rule applies in team sports I take it? And are we strictly speaking about kids at school level? Not adult/professional sports?
  
  Sorry I can see where people are coming from but I used to swim when I was younger, competitively. The idea was to swim as fast as you can. You can't even see the other people at times. At no time was I ever told not to beat someone by too big a margin, the bigger the better. It was competitive swimming. The emphasis was on winning and winning as well as possible. If one doesn't like losing, one has to improve and train harder. It's not possible to have everyone being a champion swimmer.
  
  That didn't mean we weren't good sports though. We were all happy with each other, shook hands and met each other regularly at other competitions. I used to enjoy going and win or lose, by however much, I never recollect wanting to give up.
  
  Dennis, I'm not arguing with you at all, it's good that at your school 45 years ago they thought this was bad sportsmanship. I'm afraid though at my school, 25 years ago, we'd have been singing in the showers and talking about that win for years. In fact I just asked a lad here who is 21 if he had any mercy rule thing or if his football team was 10 - 0 up at half time, would he have slowed down and maybe let the other team get some goals in in the second half? He looked at me as though I was loopy.
  
  Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure.
  
  I honestly have no recollection of ever hearing anything like this as school but I do remember being told to be a good sport. My definition of good sportsmanship though was to congratulate and shake the hands of whoever you beat or lose to. By however much.
  
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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Scoring isn't bad sportsmanship. It's the point of the game. Bad sportsmanship is cheating, trying to harm opposing players, excessive smack talk, etc.

The problem with mercy rules is it more negatively impacts the bad teams. It limits their play time against better teams, which limits their ability to enhance their own play. A team that is constantly getting mercied spends the majority of its time playing itself - a bad team. This goes for the coaches, as well.

Take your whooping and learn or cut the game short and preserve (false) self-esteem.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

I want to know why Bloomington is such a bad team.

My nephew and a few of his friends played soccer all year round
and went to a soccer camp or two.

I went to one of their league games and the coach had the all participate
coaching style. My nephew's team lost 6-2, and I know that he and his buddies
could play at a much higher level. I knew they could do such simple things
as 'wall passes' to keep the ball moving downfield more, etc...

Everybody played, but the coach did not incorporate/teach more strategies
to all the players - so they lost 6-2. It did not seem right.

If you want more playing time, or any better position in life,
go get the skills and apply them.

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