Should US Citizens have the right to opt-out of MMR vaccinations?

yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

No.

Joe Mobley

Funny you say No while millions of illegals would never be vaccinated.

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Funny you say No while millions of illegals would never be vaccinated.

A fair and accurate observation.

I may address that issue in another thread.

Joe Mobley

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

A fair and accurate observation.

I may address that issue in another thread.

Joe Mobley

Good luck with THAT!

Steve
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

A fair and accurate observation.

I may address that issue in another thread.

Joe Mobley

Reason #39 to get them legal - IMHO.

And...

I also wonder what the health and economic consequences would be going forward, if 25-50% of the U.S. population were to opt out of vaccinations?

Would the stats go back to this???

From CDC:

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Reason #39 to get them legal - IMHO.

I'm thinking reason # 4 or 5 to get them out or throw them out and keep them out.

Just me thinking legally...

Joe Mobley

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Kay King

11 years ago

Steve - vacs can cause autism.

NO - that is not true. The national autism groups have been leaders in saying that is not true - so why would you still say that as if it is fact???

That "information" came from a study done 17 years ago - which has been absolutely disproven.

If you have kids and you don't want to protect them - so you don't vaccinate them....fine.

Just keep your kids at home. Home school them, keep them away from places where other people gather. I uphold a parent's right to make decisions - but some decisions have consequences for others and this is one of them.

Here's the real problem:

Parents think it's their business if they don't vaccinate their children....but it's everyone's problem.

It exposes babies too young be vaccinated to life threatening diseases - it exposes those children with health problems that prevent vaccinations to life threatening diseases. Not to mention these parents are exposing their OWN CHILDREN to the risk of disease - not only during childhood but for the rest of their lives.

My understanding of the illegals is that those children that were distributed throughout the country were vaccinated as part of health checks. True - other illegals won't be vaccinated but isn't that even more reason to keep YOUR children safe?

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

NO - that is not true. The national autism groups have been leaders in saying that is not true - so why would you still say that as if it is fact???

That "information" came from a study done 17 years ago - which has been absolutely disproven.

If you have kids and you don't want to protect them - so you don't vaccinate them....fine.

Just keep your kids at home. Home school them, keep them away from places where other people gather. I uphold a parent's right to make decisions - but some decisions have consequences for others and this is one of them.

Here's the real problem:

Parents think it's their business if they don't vaccinate their children....but it's everyone's problem.

It exposes babies too young be vaccinated to life threatening diseases - it exposes those children with health problems that prevent vaccinations to life threatening diseases. Not to mention these parents are exposing their OWN CHILDREN to the risk of disease - not only during childhood but for the rest of their lives.

My understanding of the illegals is that those children that were distributed throughout the country were vaccinated as part of health checks. True - other illegals won't be vaccinated but isn't that even more reason to keep YOUR children safe?

I say it's fact becuase it's listed as a side effect right on the packages they come in. What the hell more proof do people need than that? Serious. You gonna believe propaganda - or the package warning that has to be printed by law?

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BigFrank Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That "information" came from a study done 17 years ago - which has been absolutely disproven.

And officially retracted by the authors.

Cheers. - Frank
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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Reason #39 to get them legal - IMHO.

And...

I also wonder what the health and economic consequences would be going forward, if 25-50% of the U.S. population were to opt out of vaccinations?

Would the stats go back to this???

From CDC:

I don't know about the other stats - but there's people getting polio today right here in the US - so at least that is wrong on the chart. What else is?

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

A fair and accurate observation.

I may address that issue in another thread.

Joe Mobley

Why address it in another thread? It's what's happening right now (today). No doubt the majority of US food supply is handled by illegals or migrant workers that will never be vaccinated. That's only one source of contact. If an illegal can enter the US & get a fake ID surely they can enroll in public schools without being vaccinated.

Besides, being vaccinated doesn't guarantee anything.

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Kay King

11 years ago

they can enroll in public schools without being vaccinated

Only in some states and oddly - those are the same states known for being "progressive" about immigration.

In states like Ohio and Mississippi and others - no student can register for school without a vaccination record or documentation from a doctor or (in some states) an accepted religious objection.

This is not a question of "rights" - it is a topic of public safety. Absolute freedom with no responsibility/accountability is not far removed from chaos.

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Joe Mobley 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Only in some states and oddly - those are the same states known for being "progressive" about immigration.

those are the same states known for being "socialist" about almost everything.

Just kind-of thinking through the keyboard...

Joe Mobley
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MissTerraK

11 years ago

I don't think they should have the right to opt-out of vaccinations against diseases that are life threatening and/or life debilitating like the measles, polio, tuberculosis and the like.

However, diseases like the flu, chicken pox and that relatively new one against some sort of sexually transmitted warts or something to that effect, yes, they should be given the right to opt out if they so desire.

I opt out of the flu shot every year, have never even thought of getting the chicken pox or std one and would be outraged if I were forced to do so!

That being said, I also would like to see every immigrant that seeks residence in the U.S. be required to have the mandatory vaccinations as well.

They already get away with too much crap here as it is. You wanna live like an American, then you get treated like one.

Originally Posted by Kay King

In states like Ohio and Mississippi and others - no student can register for school without a vaccination record or documentation from a doctor or (in some states) an accepted religious objection.

Or if there is an allergy to one. My son had a horrible reaction to his first tetanus vaccination that was so bad, they misdiagnosed him at first with having spinal meningitis. Just before they were about to administer meds for that, the top pediatrician in the state finally arrived, reviewed my son's chart, spoke with hubby and I and called a halt to the intended plan of medical care.

He diagnosed the allergic reaction. Hello? It was right in the medical history and notes that my father is allergic to tetanus and that my son had just received his vaccination! They scared the heck out of hubby and I with their misdiagnosis.

But, back on track here, even with medical records of my son's allergy to tetanus, we had to jump through hoops with the school district almost every dang year getting documentation before they would allow my son in class.

Terra

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kilgore

11 years ago

Of course nobody should be forced to get vaccinations. While the risks from vaccination are minimal, they aren't non-existant and I do think people have a right to control what goes into their own bodies.

That said, the risks from not being vaccinated are not merely borne by the individual who choses not to be vaccinated, but by society at large. Many of the very young, the very old and people with certain medical conditions aren't able to get vaccinated and so by not getting vaccinated, people are putting these people at risk of disease as well as themselves. For this reason, I think schools, doctor's offices and other public places not only have a right to -- but should -- ensure that the people passing through their doors have been vaccinated unless they have a specific medical condition that contraindicates vaccination.

Most public places already forbid smoking because of the risk that second-hand smoke presents. Many schools also forbid students from bringing peanuts or other substances to which others may have serious allergic reactions. Keeping our public places free from communicable disease should also be a social priority.

So no, nobody should be forced to be vaccinated. But people who have chosen for non-medical reasons not to get vaccinated have indicated that they value faulty science and ignorance about the true risks/benefits from vaccination more than they do the health and well-being of those in society who are unable to get vaccinated. They have chosen to become free riders on the herd immunity of others and for this reason I feel they have given up their rights to things like public education. No, they don't have to get vaccinated, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to put others at risk.

When I went to college, one of the requirements of getting financial aid was that I had registered with the Selective Service. In other words, for the privilege of having Federally-subsidized financial aid, I agreed that in the event that my country needed me and called on me to do so, I would serve in the armed forces. Obviously the chances of the US instituting another draft were small, but I did think about it carefully before signing that piece of paper. And I decided then that even if the risk of being drafted had been significant, I still would have signed on the dotted line -- and not just because I wanted that financial aid.

Sometimes being a good citizen means putting yourself at risk for the benefit of others. So while I recognize that there are real risks associated with vaccination, it must also be stated that (1) those risks are very, very small and (2) I have a responsability as a healthy citizen to ensure that I do my part to ensure that those who aren't able to protect themselves are protected from the very real threat that these communicable diseases pose to them. That's the social contract and just as I would have had to forgo financial aid for the freedom to not sign that Selective Service registration, those who chose not to be vaccinated should be prepared to forgo certain benefits of the society that they have chosen to put at risk.

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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by kilgore

When I went to college, one of the requirements of getting financial aid was that I had registered with the Selective Service. In other words, for the privilege of having Federally-subsidized financial aid, I agreed that in the event that my country needed me and called on me to do so, I would serve in the armed forces. Obviously the chances of the US instituting another draft were small, but I did think about it carefully before signing that piece of paper. And I decided then that even if the risk of being drafted had been significant, I still would have signed on the dotted line -- and not just because I wanted that financial aid.

Sometimes being a good citizen means putting yourself at risk for the benefit of others. So while I recognize that there are real risks associated with vaccination, it must also be stated that (1) those risks are very, very small and (2) I have a responsability as a healthy citizen to ensure that I do my part to ensure that those who aren't able to protect themselves are protected from the very real threat that these communicable diseases pose to them. That's the social contract and just as I would have had to forgo financial aid for the freedom to not sign that Selective Service registration, those who chose not to be vaccinated should be prepared to forgo certain benefits of the society that they have chosen to put at risk.

Just to note... Almost all male US citizens (and immigrants) born after Dec. 31, 1959 between the ages of 18-25 were/are required to register with the the Selective Service. In-fact I can remember my father checking with me to make sure I had registered shortly after my 18th birthday.

Almost all male U.S. citizens, and male immigrants living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service.

https://www.sss.gov/fswho.htm

https://www.sss.gov/PDFs/WhoMustRegisterChart.pdf

Cheers

-don

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kilgore

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Just to note... Almost all male US citizens (and immigrants) born after Dec. 31, 1959 between the ages of 18-25 were/are required to register with the the Selective Service. In-fact I can remember my father checking with me to make sure I had registered shortly after my 18th birthday.

This is true, though one of the only real consequences of not registering is not being eligible for Federally-subsidized financial aid. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in the recent past has been arrested or even fined for not registering.

Regardless, my point still stands: just as I would put myself at risk if I were ever drafted to protect the lives of my countrymen and countrywomen, I think it's reasonable for society to ask its citizens to take the minimal risk posed by an MMR shot to protect the lives of their countrymen and countrywomen.

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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by kilgore

This is true, though one of the only real consequences of not registering is not being eligible for Federally-subsidized financial aid. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in the recent past has been arrested or even fined for not registering.

I believe the last prosecution was January 23rd, 1986. In the past their has been a total of about 20 prosecutions. That said, the consequences of non-registration can be much greater than just the federal financial aid restriction.

Registration is the law. A man who fails to register may, if prosecuted and convicted, face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or a prison term of up to five years.

Even if not tried, a man who fails to register with Selective Service before turning age 26 may find that some doors are permanently closed.

Such as --> student financial aid, citizenship, federal job training, and federal jobs. In-fact many states also have "penalties" for not registering.

https://www.sss.gov/FSbenefits.htm

40 states have linked Selective Service registration to Drivers's License applications, and in 27 or more of those states when you apply for a license you are automatically registered. In other words, if you want to obtain a drivers license in those states, you must register. In 31 states you need to be registered to get state-funded higher education and/or state jobs.

https://www.sss.gov/fsstateleg.htm

The SSS never really intended to have a bunch of people tossed in prison, and of course, the feds and the states have imposed the rules and requirements to increase participation.

Cheers

-don

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

just to be quite clear - I and my son have had all the mandatory vaccines - but I refuse to get a flu vaccine - and if it became mandatory, I guess I would be forced to leave my country because I won't become a victim of (as Sal aptly called it) fascism

there is no reason for some of you to go on the attack - just because some of us believe strongly in natural health - I too will never trust a pharmaceutical company or main stream medical with my life - after all I have lost both parents and a favorite aunt to cancer - their chemo completely destroyed their immune system, along with the other drugs they were given. That ordeal opened my eyes and allowed me to see the medical profession for what it is - all for profit - nothing to do with curing diseases at all -

after all healthy people don't make them any money, do they?

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Kay King

11 years ago

Sal - I'm not sure why you get bent our of shape over vaccinating babies when you don't have children.

You don't have kids that could be at risk because other parents have unreasonable fear of vaccinations.

You don't have children who could suffer or even die because of another parent's decision.

It's not a big anti-govt, down with "the man" issue. These are children who used to die by the hundreds from diseases we can almost always prevent today.

Requiring immunization is NOT "taking rights" - it is protecting the rights of other citizens.

their chemo completely destroyed their immune system, along with the other drugs they were given

What is the alternative - to die of cancer? I know what you're saying as cancer treatments are especially vicious...but that's because CANCER is vicious and it takes poison to fight it.

I have two friends who opted not to be treated with chemo and radiation - and they both died of cancer rather quickly. Other friends had the treatments and some died....but some lived, too.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sal - I'm not sure why you get bent our of shape over vaccinating babies when you don't have children.

You don't have kids that could be at risk because other parents have unreasonable fear of vaccinations.

You don't have children who could suffer or even die because of another parent's decision.

It's not a big anti-govt, down with "the man" issue. These are children who used to die by the hundreds from diseases we can almost always prevent today.

Requiring immunization is NOT "taking rights" - it is protecting the rights of other citizens.

What is the alternative - to die of cancer? I know what you're saying as cancer treatments are especially vicious...but that's because CANCER is vicious and it takes poison to fight it.

I have two friends who opted not to be treated with chemo and radiation - and they both died of cancer rather quickly. Other friends had the treatments and some died....but some lived, too.

What I am asking for is the logic here that someone without a vac is a threat to someone with a vac. Don't they work? If they don't, why do people insist on invading others rights to decide. If they do - there's not one drop of threat to a vaccinated child....from what they are vaccinated for. Vaccines take down the immune system, so they are at risk for any other illness on the globe.

Polio is not eradicated. There's new cases in Oregon, which means most likely elsewhere, too - yet the % of vaccinated should have made the virus extinct had pharms been right. They weren't - about measles or mumps either. 90+ % vac'd - still have the illness.

Get your vac. Get your kids vac'd - it's just nothing but a $$$ scam to force people to so. People somewhat understand "military industrial complex" but they are unaware and completely blind that there is a "medical industrial complex".

I care, not because I do or don't have children. I care because every time the gov convinces people that they're all gonna die if they don't give up a right, they go after another one. That's how fascism works - they get people to support something purely out of fear and just keep taking and taking. When will people ever learn?

As for me - I don't care if they do learn or not. I just don't want them invading my space over it. Enough is enough.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

What I am asking for is the logic here that someone without a vac is a threat to someone with a vac. Don't they work? If they don't, why do people insist on invading others rights to decide. If they do - there's not one drop of threat to a vaccinated child....from what they are vaccinated for. Vaccines take down the immune system, so they are at risk for any other illness on the globe.

Polio is not eradicated. There's new cases in Oregon, which means most likely elsewhere, too - yet the % of vaccinated should have made the virus extinct had pharms been right. They weren't - about measles or mumps either. 90+ % vac'd - still have the illness.

As for me - I don't care if they do learn or not. I just don't want them invading my space over it. Enough is enough.

Well, the government and likely voters will decide whether a law will be passed or not to protect the public from anti-vaxxers and their diseases. There are a lot of people, like infants and people with immunodeficiency disorders that are not vaccinated, not through their own stupidity, but because the vaccine wouldn't work on an immune compromised person and children aren't vaccinated at birth.

Infants younger than 12 months old are particularly susceptible to the measles virus because infants are not traditionally given the first dose of the vaccine until they are a year old. The cause of the outbreak has not been determined, according to health officials.

As for your polio facts, I'll go with more authoritative resources:

Until now, eradicating polio has been one of the most successful worldwide public-health efforts ever undertaken. In 1955, 28,985 Americans—mostly children—were stricken with polio. Then Jonas Salk developed a vaccine in 1955, which was followed by the Sabin oral vaccine in 1963. There hasn't been a case of polio on the United States since 1979.

Since 1988 more than 2.5 billion children have been immunized worldwide, and the overall number of polio cases has dropped by 99 percent.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ion-war-world/

The cases of children in CA and Colorado and other places with a paralysis are not polio.

The cases come amid an unusual wave of severe respiratory illness from enterovirus 68. The germ is not new - it was first identified in 1962 and has caused clusters of illness before, including in Georgia and Pennsylvania in 2009 and Arizona in 2010. Because it's not routinely tested for, it's possible the bug spread in previous years but was never distinguished from colds caused by other germs.

This year, the virus has gotten more attention because it has been linked to hundreds of severe illnesses. Beginning last month, a flood of sick children began to hit hospitals in Kansas City, Missouri, and Chicago - kids with trouble breathing, some needing oxygen or more extreme care such as a breathing machine. Many - but not all - had asthma before the infection.

The CDC has been testing a limited number of specimens from very sick children around the country, and as of Thursday reported 277 people in 40 states and the District of Columbia with enterovirus 68. So far no deaths have been attributed to the virus, but Seward said 15 still are being investigated.

Health officials know enterovirus can cause paralysis. Published reports count at least two people in the U.S. who were paralyzed and were found to have the virus in their spinal fluid. One was a New Hampshire 5-year-old in 2008; details are scant on the second case, a young adult, which happened many years earlier.

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What is the alternative - to die of cancer? I know what you're saying as cancer treatments are especially vicious...but that's because CANCER is vicious and it takes poison to fight it.

I have two friends who opted not to be treated with chemo and radiation - and they both died of cancer rather quickly. Other friends had the treatments and some died....but some lived, too.

Kay, cancer discussions are really touchy for me, and I am sorry for anyone who has every lost loved ones to that disease - but there are cures for cancer that that have been suppressed - whether you want to believe it or not. You are a very smart lady whom I've grown to respect so it surprises me that you wouldn't be open to acknowledging some alternative cures that resonate with your own common sense.

Here's what I know as fact: the body has the capacity to heal itself if it is properly "fueled"! Extra doses of vitamin C have many times times stopped me from getting a bad cold or flu - so I already have the proof I need about the benefits of that particular vitamin - but that is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

It has been proven that cancer cannot thrive in a properly oxygenated and alkaline body.
source: Cancer Cannot Survive in an Oxygenated Alkaline EnvironmentCancer Compass~An Alternate Route

So it would seem that oxygen therapy would work wonders on a lot of cancers, now wouldn't it? But we know that wouldn't make big Pharma any money, would it?

why is it that the doctors who have discovered these alternative treatments have been ostracized, in some cases imprisoned, and their reputations tarnished by main stream medical - who stands to gain by the suppression of these cures? - yes, the Pharma companies - who are extremely powerful and dangerous.

and that brings us back to the OP -

if we ate properly, exercised, reduced stress, our bodies would naturally be able to fight any disease - and there would not be the need for vaccines or any lethal drugs. I believe that with every fibre of my being.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Karen - I do try to read about natural treatments but I admit to a high level of skepticism. Very simply, I've known several people personally and through family members and friends who have opted for "natural treatments" instead of standard medical treatment....and not one single person has been "cured". Not one. Maybe they wouldn't have been cured through traditional medicine, either - don't know. I do know the miracle cures didn't work.

The notion that oxygen might selectively destroy cancer cells goes back to the 1930s, when Nobel prize winner Otto Warburg, M.D., discovered that, compared to normal cells, cancer cells have a low respiration rate. He proposed that if cancer cells are adapted to survive and grow in low-oxygen environments, they would die off if exposed to higher levels of that element. While that may sound plausible, we now know that Dr. Warburg was wrong. Oxygen doesn't slow cancer growth - in fact, tumors often grow rapidly in tissues well supplied with oxygenated blood.

The oxygen theory is not a secret - but it hasn't proven to have any usefulness in treating cancer....
Oxygen Therapy

The oxygen theory is from the 1930s - don't you think by now science would have proven it to be valuable if there is anything to it?

True - big pharma wants to sell meds. But there are so many scientists who only want to find cures and truth - I've worked with some of them. I don't believe a potential "cure" has been languishing for 80 years due to the greed of companies that were not even in business back then.

I would love to see natural treatments and natural cures for many diseases and in time we may have those available. However, the "alternative medicine" cartel is just as stubborn as big pharma. They make outrageous claims and when called on it they backtrack and then make new claims.

I think in time what we will have is a combination of natural and pharmaceutical treatments far better than what we have now. For that to happen both the pharmaceutical and alternative proponents need to tone down the rhetoric and focus on testing.

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DJL

11 years ago

A quote from Reason magazine's science correspondent:

Vaccination is arguably the greatest public health triumph of the past century.
The University of Pittsburgh's Project Tycho database quantifies the prevalence of infectious disease since 1888 in the United States. The data suggest that vaccinations since 1924 prevented more than 103 million cases of polio, measles, rubella, mumps, hepatitis A, diphtheria and pertussis.
Researchers estimate that vaccination saved between 3 million and 4 million lives.
Now this dazzling success over disease, disability and early death is in danger of being undermined. Bamboozled by misinformation spread by anti-vaccine hucksters, the number of parents who are refusing to get their kids immunized is growing. The predictable result is the resurgence of highly communicable diseases.

Shame and Shun Anti-Vaccine Parents - Hit & Run : Reason.com

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The oxygen theory is from the 1930s - don't you think by now science would have proven it to be valuable if there is anything to it?

True - big pharma wants to sell meds. But there are so many scientists who only want to find cures and truth - I've worked with some of them. I don't believe a potential "cure" has been languishing for 80 years due to the greed of companies that were not even in business back then.

I would love to see natural treatments and natural cures for many diseases and in time we may have those available. However, the "alternative medicine" cartel is just as stubborn as big pharma. They make outrageous claims and when called on it they backtrack and then make new claims.

Kay,
I think if some of these Big Pharma put the billions if not trillions of dollars they put in to research chemo and other medicines that just prolong the Life of Cancer victims... well I think we would have a cure by now.

I know, maybe I am in the Minority but the fact is these companies just do not have enough motivation to find a cure for Cancer.

A lot of these people are Corporate Psychopaths . Really. They truly are.

Cancer should have been found a Cure decades ago. There is NO excuse.

The scientists you talk about who are doing research are just way, way underfunded.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Karen - I do try to read about natural treatments but I admit to a high level of skepticism. Very simply, I've known several people personally and through family members and friends who have opted for "natural treatments" instead of standard medical treatment....and not one single person has been "cured". Not one. Maybe they wouldn't have been cured through traditional medicine, either - don't know. I do know the miracle cures didn't work.

The oxygen theory is not a secret - but it hasn't proven to have any usefulness in treating cancer....
Oxygen Therapy

The oxygen theory is from the 1930s - don't you think by now science would have proven it to be valuable if there is anything to it?

True - big pharma wants to sell meds. But there are so many scientists who only want to find cures and truth - I've worked with some of them. I don't believe a potential "cure" has been languishing for 80 years due to the greed of companies that were not even in business back then.

I would love to see natural treatments and natural cures for many diseases and in time we may have those available. However, the "alternative medicine" cartel is just as stubborn as big pharma. They make outrageous claims and when called on it they backtrack and then make new claims.

I think in time what we will have is a combination of natural and pharmaceutical treatments far better than what we have now. For that to happen both the pharmaceutical and alternative proponents need to tone down the rhetoric and focus on testing.

Actually - a lot of treatments are proven to work. They aren't allowed to be used. My dog was all human cures - I had to research the effect of each element I used to see the affect on dogs. My sister hasn't been well long enough to be considered a "survivor" - but when she found out she had breast cancer, the first thing she did was call me. No chemo at all.....and her doctors are amazed that she is not just surviving, but thriving (cancer is gone and at this point very unlikely to be seen again).

There's a woman in Virginia City who is a survivor that by all rights should be dead no matter what treatment she chose. She chose natural and is alive. She has a bottle of one of her treatment "juices" at the bar with her and still takes a slug of it several times a day just to keep it from coming back. We talked and a lot of what she used is what I use.

You aren't going to get a cancer cure from this medical complex. We have a for profit system run by pharmaceutical corporations and hospital moguls. They make their money from illness, not from health. There has been no "cure" for anything developed by the pharms in decades. They've gotten good at cut and paste, but surgery is good money for them. They can't "cure" anything, though. All they can do is control it with daily meds. You figure that out -- and go look at some of the doctor's school curriculums and textbooks, look at their books with the list of diseases and pharms for it, then start following the money. It will scare you crapless when you get into it deep enough.

Remember - I went through this all. I wasn't supposed to live, the meds were experimental and they never told my parents. It had me in a coma for 4 days because I took a couple of aspirins with it (no warning at all even on the pkg about that.....because I was used as an experiment. It was natural that brought me out of the severe illness I'd felt for most of my life.

I've studied this for 30 years - and when someone screams about their local medical industrial complex rep - it just makes me shake my head. It's, of course, everyone's personal choice how they take care of themselves, and for those who are ill and look no further than a doctor's office - well that's their own cross to bear. It's their life they risk by not doing some real deep research. For me, it's a no brainer that when the MIC says "we can't do anything" or "meds for life" that it's time to find out what you can do for yourself. We expect that in every other aspect of life - but as soon as it's health, we're willing to throw our very existence at corporations without question.

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Karen - I do try to read about natural treatments but I admit to a high level of skepticism. Very simply, I've known several people personally and through family members and friends who have opted for "natural treatments" instead of standard medical treatment....and not one single person has been "cured". Not one. Maybe they wouldn't have been cured through traditional medicine, either - don't know. I do know the miracle cures didn't work.

The oxygen theory is not a secret - but it hasn't proven to have any usefulness in treating cancer....
Oxygen Therapy

The oxygen theory is from the 1930s - don't you think by now science would have proven it to be valuable if there is anything to it?

True - big pharma wants to sell meds. But there are so many scientists who only want to find cures and truth - I've worked with some of them. I don't believe a potential "cure" has been languishing for 80 years due to the greed of companies that were not even in business back then.

I would love to see natural treatments and natural cures for many diseases and in time we may have those available. However, the "alternative medicine" cartel is just as stubborn as big pharma. They make outrageous claims and when called on it they backtrack and then make new claims.

I think in time what we will have is a combination of natural and pharmaceutical treatments far better than what we have now. For that to happen both the pharmaceutical and alternative proponents need to tone down the rhetoric and focus on testing.

yes, I do understand what you are saying - however, I can also see through the bs on both sides, and use common sense - that being if we eat the right foods, treat our bodies like the temples they are, reduce our stress, reduce our use of chemicals in our households, drink the right water (no fluoride, no chlorine) and lots of it, don't smoke, limit our exposure to second hand smoke and other pollutants, our immune systems can become much stronger and can fight disease.

something as simple as adding a 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda to a litre of drinking water, or adding freshly squeezed organic lemon juice to our water, are simple things that can prevent a myriad of illnesses. Why isn't that taught to people?
Another thing: did you know cinnamon lowers blood sugar? Cayenne pepper, garlic, helps high blood pressure? There are many such simple alternatives - no hype - no expensive lotions and potions from alternative medicine gurus.
Just good food - things most of us already buy -

In my opinion, doctors are not taught disease prevention - they are taught how to treat symptoms. And that's why they hand out prescriptions willy-nilly -
and all those chemicals we're ingesting from big Pharma - do you really think they strengthen people's immune systems?

I'm afraid they don't.

And the other problem is this - people - people want quick fixes for everything - so they think a drug will be that quick fix - after all good nutrition takes a while to show it's benefits, right?

And even I, armed with all the knowledge I have about good food and nuttrition, do you think I don't still eat some stuff that is bad for me? I do. Like many of us, I'm my own worst enemy.

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

yes, I do understand what you are saying - however, I can also see through the bs on both sides, and use common sense - that being if we eat the right foods, treat our bodies like the temples they are, reduce our stress, reduce our use of chemicals in our households, drink the right water (no fluoride, no chlorine) and lots of it, don't smoke, limit our exposure to second hand smoke and other pollutants, our immune systems can become much stronger and can fight disease.

And you may still succumb to any disease known to mankind. Quickly and horribly.

Cheers. - Frank

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HeySal 11 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

And you may still succumb to any disease known to mankind. Quickly and horribly.

Cheers. - Frank

Shocker - so can someone who's vaccinated.
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- BigFrank Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by HeySal
  
  Shocker - so can someone who's vaccinated.
  
  That's NOT what is quite so shocking about some of the postings in this thread. What's shocking is that some folks claim to be so educated and experts in so many different subjects, yet what they post belies the fact that know anything - about anything.
  
  Taking a firm stance on things does not make you an expert. When you're wrong, it just makes you obstinate.
  
  Trust me. I know it for a fact. It happened to me. Once.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

And you may still succumb to any disease known to mankind. Quickly and horribly.

Cheers. - Frank

thanks for caring, Frank

it's ok that we have a different opinion on this issue - I am not trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat - I just personally feel that nature provides us with everything we need to thrive and heal ourselves and all that was missing in the past was access to the knowledge of how to use mother nature's bounties. Thanks to the internet that knowledge is available to all of us - and it is up to each of us individually what we do with that knowledge.

regarding the issue with vaccines - my only concern was if they decided to force us to take mandatory flu vaccines - I would be against it - because I can successfully combat flu on my own, and if I had to be quarantined because I might be a danger to others - fair enough - and so be it. I have no desire to endanger others -

I believe we should have the right to decide what medical treatment we get, and I would like to see - as Kay mentioned earlier - a healthy balance of mainstream and natural health care being implemented - and more choices allowed for everyone.

Peace -

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

thanks for caring, Frank

it's ok that we have a different opinion on this issue - I am not trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat - I just personally feel that nature provides us with everything we need to thrive and heal ourselves and all that was missing in the past was access to the knowledge of how to use mother nature's bounties. Thanks to the internet that knowledge is available to all of us - and it is up to each of us individually what we do with that knowledge.

Peace -

This is where people go wrong with "natural" remedies. Yes, some drugs are derived from plants... Will you see the benefits of the plant if you just eat it, no! They are refined, tampered with and modelled into a "drug" which will then help the patient. Eating the plant alone will do diddly squat for you and in some cases, poison you... (There may be exceptions, I accept that.)

(Please note I am not talking about diet here. Even though there has been multiple epidemiological studies which show that environmental only has a limited effect on some diseases. (Such as cancer etc...)...)

Edit: I would also like to point out that the plant itself is actually useless, there will be a certain molecular component the drugs company will use to create a cure/helpful drug.

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

This is where people go wrong with "natural" remedies. Yes, some drugs are derived from plants... Will you see the benefits of the plant if you just eat it, no! They are refined, tampered with and modelled into a "drug" which will then help the patient. Eating the plant alone will do diddly squat for you and in some cases, poison you... (There may be exceptions, I accept that.)

(Please note I am not talking about diet here. Even though there has been multiple epidemiological studies which show that environmental only has a limited effect on some diseases. (Such as cancer etc...)...)

Edit: I would also like to point out that the plant itself is actually useless, there will be a certain molecular component the drugs company will use to create a cure/helpful drug.

I'm not advocating the ingestion of "plants" willy-nilly - stop trying to make me look like I'm some natural health quack - I'm not - I have done a ton of research on natural health, but I would be foolish to just rely on my research -
there are professional natural health practitioners who I would consult as well if I needed to.

My opinion is this: if I can use a natural remedy in place of a chemical that produces the same results, I would personally choose nature over chemicals any day. That is my choice - what you do with your body is your business.

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

My opinion is this: if I can use a natural remedy in place of a chemical that produces the same results, I would personally choose nature over chemicals any day. That is my choice - what you do with your body is your business.

Fair enough.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

...... all that was missing in the past was access to the knowledge of how to use mother nature's bounties.

Another thing that was missing in the past, was tested and proven real medical treatment. What was also missing was the availability of these treatments, and their benefits.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Karen - I always enjoy your "disagreements". You present your ideas and beliefs in a way that is respectful of what others think - and you never make it strident nor personal.

Kudos to you for that!

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Karen - I always enjoy your "disagreements". You present your ideas and beliefs in a way that is respectful of what others think - and you never make it strident nor personal.

Kudos to you for that!

What? How dare you, Kay !! Being "respectful" and "impersonal". By Gawd, that is committing pure blasphemy down here in the OT forum

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DJL

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

...
I just personally feel that nature provides us with everything we need to thrive and heal ourselves and all that was missing in the past was access to the knowledge of how to use mother nature's bounties.

The following might be helpful in freeing yourself from the delusion that Nature cares for us or provides for us:

This "fact-filled and amusing trek through nature's dark side" (Kirkus Reviews) reveals the fascinating, weird, and often perverted ways that Mother Nature fends only for herself.
It may be a wonderful world, but as Dan Riskin (host of the Animal Planet's TV show Monsters Inside Me) explains, it's also a dangerous, disturbing, and disgusting one. At every turn, it seems, living things are trying to eat us, poison us, use our bodies as their homes, or have us spread their eggs. In Mother Nature Is Trying to Kill You, Riskin is our tour guide through the natural world at its most gloriously ruthless.
http://amzn.com/1476707553

"There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See."
-=John Heywood (1546)

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by DJL

The following might be helpful in freeing yourself from the delusion that Nature cares for us or provides for us:
"There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See."
-=John Heywood (1546)

I'm not delusional - but thank you for your concern.

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ThomM 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I'm not delusional - but thank you for your concern.

What he's missing there Karen is the fact that we are a part of nature.
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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

thanks for caring, Frank

I'm powerless, not to. :-)

it's ok that we have a different opinion on this issue -

Of course.

I am not trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat -

I know that.

I just personally feel that nature provides us with everything we need to thrive and heal ourselves and all that was missing in the past was access to the knowledge of how to use mother nature's bounties.

I have no problem with you believing that. It doesn't affect me. I find the belief beyond being ludicrous, but that's just my belief. I would never expect anyone else to share it.

Thanks to the internet that knowledge is available to all of us

Well, I personally believe very little of what I read on the Internet. If there is a greater source of misinformation available on this planet, I defy you to name it.

- and it is up to each of us individually what we do with that knowledge.

Yep. I'll stick with my doctors and my meds. When I went into congestive heart failure I was told I'd be dead in 3 months without intense medical intervention. I had an injection rate of 12% and that's about as bad as it gets. I'm on my 3rd pacemaker/defibrillator and the medication I take, one of which is what primarily is responsible for keeping me alive has doubled my injection rate to 26%. There is nothing in nature that could have done anything to reverse my condition. Nothing.

regarding the issue with vaccines - my only concern was if they decided to force us to take mandatory flu vaccines - I would be against it - because I can successfully combat flu on my own, and if I had to be quarantined because I might be a danger to others - fair enough - and so be it. I have no desire to endanger others -

As long as you are perfectly willing to be sequestered, fine. Enjoy! :-)

I believe we should have the right to decide what medical treatment we get, and I would like to see - as Kay mentioned earlier - a healthy balance of mainstream and natural health care being implemented - and more choices allowed for everyone.

Someday - in a perfect world. Just don't hold your breath.

Cheers. - Frank

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I'm powerless, not to. :-)
(gentle snip)
Well, I personally believe very little of what I read on the Internet. If there is a greater source of misinformation available on this planet, I defy you to name it.

(gentle snip)

Cheers. - Frank

I don't believe everything I read online either - oh, gosh, no!
but I do own books written by professionals which are credible sources of information with verifiable proof. And I'm always seeking more information - I like to learn because I certainly don't know it all

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I don't believe everything I read online either - oh, gosh, no!
but I do own books written by professionals which are credible sources of information with verifiable proof. And I'm always seeking more information - I like to learn because I certainly don't know it all

Verifiable proof. Is that like 'military 'intelligence?'

I like to learn, too - but it doesn't happen very often. I already do know it all. :-)

Cheers. - Frank

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sal - I'm not sure why you get bent our of shape over vaccinating babies when you don't have children.

You don't have kids that could be at risk because other parents have unreasonable fear of vaccinations.

You don't have children who could suffer or even die because of another parent's decision.

It's not a big anti-govt, down with "the man" issue. These are children who used to die by the hundreds from diseases we can almost always prevent today.

Requiring immunization is NOT "taking rights" - it is protecting the rights of other citizens.

What is the alternative - to die of cancer? I know what you're saying as cancer treatments are especially vicious...but that's because CANCER is vicious and it takes poison to fight it.

I have two friends who opted not to be treated with chemo and radiation - and they both died of cancer rather quickly. Other friends had the treatments and some died....but some lived, too.

What you said really makes NO sense! How is MY not taking a vaccination going to hurt someone that DID? Are you saying they are NOT immune? If so, then how would my taking it help?

ALSO, a persons immune system is NOT perfect! If all goes well, it could get taxed, and an immunity could FAIL, in whole or in part! If all does NOT go well, the immune system can go BONKERS! That can lead to something called an ALLERGY, that could cost you your LIFE! I wish I could remember the correct term, but there is ALSO a disease where the cells go against the NATIVE proteins! This can lead to all sorts of ailments! It could be as simple as having your hair fall out to as complex as.....Well... YOU NAME IT!!!!!!!! It can EAT MUSCLE! DESTROY SKIN! Cause various organs to go crazy or just self destruct! It could cause diabetes! JUST ABOUT ANYTHING!!!!! It is simple and obvious, really. An immunity is really just a simple instruction that these cells hunt out a pattern and encase it, so the virus becomes inactive. The viruses job is to hunt out a pattern, latch on, and insert its code into the host cell which then makes more virus. That is the very DEFINITION of a virus! The immune cell that encases it prevents its success. The cell is then destroyed. With this second immune disorder, that I am describing, it simply looks for a pattern that matches a body cell, and does the same thing. For the allergy, they apparently just go wildly crazy with otherwise relatively benign problems.

So HOW likely is this? Well, without proper PERSONAL records, we may never know. But it DOES happen!

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I don't think they should have the right to opt-out of vaccinations against diseases that are life threatening and/or life debilitating like the measles, polio, tuberculosis and the like.

However, diseases like the flu, chicken pox and that relatively new one against some sort of sexually transmitted warts or something to that effect, yes, they should be given the right to opt out if they so desire.

I opt out of the flu shot every year, have never even thought of getting the chicken pox or std one and would be outraged if I were forced to do so!

That being said, I also would like to see every immigrant that seeks residence in the U.S. be required to have the mandatory vaccinations as well.

They already get away with too much crap here as it is. You wanna live like an American, then you get treated like one.

Or if there is an allergy to one. My son had a horrible reaction to his first tetanus vaccination that was so bad, they misdiagnosed him at first with having spinal meningitis. Just before they were about to administer meds for that, the top pediatrician in the state finally arrived, reviewed my son's chart, spoke with hubby and I and called a halt to the intended plan of medical care.

He diagnosed the allergic reaction. Hello? It was right in the medical history and notes that my father is allergic to tetanus and that my son had just received his vaccination! They scared the heck out of hubby and I with their misdiagnosis.

But, back on track here, even with medical records of my son's allergy to tetanus, we had to jump through hoops with the school district almost every dang year getting documentation before they would allow my son in class.

Terra

That flyer, that I mentioned the FDA MANDATES that you should get, but often don't, includes a LOT of things, ******INCLUDING****** information on HOW THE VACCINE IS MADE, and ALLERGY POSSIBILITIES! The person that gave the shot to your son, BROKE THE LAW, and is guilty of NEGLIGENCE! He or she should have asked you about allergies, and should have given you that paper!

HECK, whenever they consider giving me an antibiotic, or whatever they generally ask me if I have any allergies. FORTUNATELY, I can always answer NOT ANY KNOWN ONES!

A coworker of mine once went to a mall, got a spring roll, after being LIED TO, and he NEARLY DIED! He spent TWO DAYS in a hospital because the spring role that he was told did NOT have seafood allergens, ended up having the seafood allergens that he was allergic to!

Steve

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Joe Mobley 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Besides, being vaccinated doesn't guarantee anything.

That's a true statement. But it does stack the medical odds in my favor.

Joe Mobley
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- yukon Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Joe Mobley
  
  That's a true statement. But it does stack the medical odds in my favor.
  
  Joe Mobley
  
  I wouldn't place any bets on that.
  
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  Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Newsflash for the anti-science renegades: Having dark fleece doesn't make you any less a sheep.
  
  You just keep writing, and I'll keep reading.
  
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seasoned

11 years ago

Well, a lot of people equate this desire to the myth that such things cause Autism. As I have said for about a decade(I got interested in autism spectrum ailments in early 2005 while recovering from my surgery, so it HAS been about a decade.) the fantastic rise of autism specified then and since is an idiotic contrivance! It is fueled by an over zealous "diagnosing" based on an overly broad, and yet broadened even more, DSM reference. All together, they could easily make a case for 100% of the planet having AS, even though the DSM SPECIFICALLY FORBIDS IT! So there is no way to analyze those statistics. You would have to have people LEGITIMATELY SWORN to follow the DSM reanalyze everyone. Maybe then, in a few decades, we could develop a base line to determine real changes. THEN, in a few decades, we could legitimately determine if the increase is real. Of course NONE of that will happen.

But the FACT is that vaccinations ARE dangerous! They have preservatives and other things that are problematic and read the warnings some time! They almost always break the law, but SOMETIMES they sneak you a flyer, or have one there, and you are ENTITLED to that document BEFORE the shot. So you SHOULD be able to ask for it, if you aren't given it. The document lists potential problems INCLUDING Guillian Barre! Guillain-Barre syndrome Definition - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic The Mayo Clinics site forgets to mention TWO things! ONE, your chances GREATLY increase if you have a vaccination! TWO, if it is SOOOO rare, it must be one of the more common rare occurrences, because they DO mention it! To be fair, supposedly MOST such cases happen within a few weeks of having an infection. They probably ALSO happen within a day of drinking some fluid!

SO, like the autism problem, I don't know if they have any idea what causes it.

And why do people never mention the people with odd diseases that cross the border illegally? So many of the diseases that are popping up now were supposedly totally, or mostly, irradicated.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

ONE, your chances GREATLY increase if you have a vaccination! TWO, if it is SOOOO rare, it must be one of the more common rare occurrences, because they DO mention it!
Steve

Since your talking about Guillain-Barré syndrome and it came up at my uni the other day I thought I'd have a little look at it. Greatly increase seems a little extreme.... A recentish paper published by the lancet says this: This finding translated to about 1·6 excess cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome per million people vaccinated (This is the H1N1 vaccine (flu)).

Association between Guillain-Barré syndrome and influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent inactivated vaccines in the USA: a meta-analysis

This is maybe not such a respected journal as the Lancet because I'm not sure if this is actually peer reviewed but this puts GBS at 0.4-6 people per 100,000 estimate.

Guillain

Another respected peer reviewed journal puts it at 1.1 cases per million.

Risk of Confirmed Guillain-Barré Syndrome Following Receipt of Monovalent Inactivated Influenza A (H1N1) and Seasonal Influenza Vaccines in the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project, 2009

Lets not says greatly increases... Vaccines have been shown to be an amazing thing for society. Yes, they will have an adverse effect where they may cause some rare auto immune disorder or genetic mutation. Are the occurrence of these side effects documented, sure, should your children get the standard vaccines, yes.

Edit: For the bottom link, it also states 9 cases per 1.48 million between a certain time period. Not really a great increase still.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Since your talking about Guillain-Barré syndrome and it came up at my uni the other day I thought I'd have a little look at it. Greatly increase seems a little extreme.... A recentish paper published by the lancet says this: This finding translated to about 1·6 excess cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome per million people vaccinated (This is the H1N1 vaccine (flu)).

Association between Guillain-Barré syndrome and influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent inactivated vaccines in the USA: a meta-analysis

This is maybe not such a respected journal as the Lancet because I'm not sure if this is actually peer reviewed but this puts GBS at 0.4-6 people per 100,000 estimate.

Guillain

Another respected peer reviewed journal puts it at 1.1 cases per million.

Risk of Confirmed Guillain-Barré Syndrome Following Receipt of Monovalent Inactivated Influenza A (H1N1) and Seasonal Influenza Vaccines in the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project, 2009

Lets not says greatly increases... Vaccines have been shown to be an amazing thing for society. Yes, they will have an adverse effect where they may cause some rare auto immune disorder or genetic mutation. Are the occurrence of these side effects documented, sure, should your children get the standard vaccines, yes.

By GREATLY INCREASE, I just meant that your chances go from effectively ZERO, to something where there is a chance it could happen. And it may only be like once or twice in a day when there are many THOUSANDS getting a shot, but it is still there.

As for the shot, it seems like almost ANY shot can cause it though it seems more likely with pathogens that could trigger an immune response, like vaccines. It ALSO SEEMS to be more likely to happen, SUPPOSEDLY, if you have had an EARLIER response, like a flu. But, last I knew, they didn't really have an idea of what triggers it.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

By GREATLY INCREASE, I just meant that your chances go from effectively ZERO, to something where there is a chance it could happen. And it may only be like once or twice in a day when there are many THOUSANDS getting a shot, but it is still there.

As for the shot, it seems like almost ANY shot can cause it though it seems more likely with pathogens that could trigger an immune response, like vaccines. It ALSO SEEMS to be more likely to happen, SUPPOSEDLY, if you have had an EARLIER response, like a flu. But, last I knew, they didn't really have an idea of what triggers it.

Steve

Ok... One or 2 people get effected and they may cause some auto immune, genetic disorder. Lets look at a bit of history on vaccinations...

Whopping Cough:

In 1940, there were more than 60,000 cases and 3,283 deaths from diphtheria in the UK. Before the 1950s, the country saw an average of 120,000 cases of whooping cough each year.

By 2008, the vaccination of children had almost eliminated diphtheria (there were just six cases in the UK that year - all imported), and vaccination against whooping cough had dramatically reduced whooping cough to 1,028 cases.

Polio:

Before: Up to 1 in 1,000 children and 1 in 75 adults who caught the infection were paralysed - not only in their arms or legs, but also their breathing muscles, which put them at risk of suffocation.

By 2002, the incurable and deadly disease of polio had also been eradicated from much of the world. This included the UK, the rest of Europe, the western Pacific and the Americas.

Meningitis C:

Meningitis C has been virtually eliminated since the men C vaccine was introduced in the UK in 1999 (the first country in the world to offer the jab). There has been a 99% reduction in cases of meningitis C among those aged under 20 since vaccination started.

-----------

I have taken them figures straight from the NHS UK website, I know from looking at other papers that these figures seem quite well spread across developed countries. So yes there is a CHANCE that you have a 1 in 100,000/million (depending on what estimates you want to believe) you will get one of these horrendous side effect. Then again, alternatively, it seems like the odds of you getting the disease they actually prevent seems to be a lot higher then them odds.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Ok... One or 2 people get effected and they may cause some auto immune, genetic disorder. Lets look at a bit of history on vaccinations...

Whopping Cough:

In 1940, there were more than 60,000 cases and 3,283 deaths from diphtheria in the UK. Before the 1950s, the country saw an average of 120,000 cases of whooping cough each year.

By 2008, the vaccination of children had almost eliminated diphtheria (there were just six cases in the UK that year - all imported), and vaccination against whooping cough had dramatically reduced whooping cough to 1,028 cases.

Polio:

Before: Up to 1 in 1,000 children and 1 in 75 adults who caught the infection were paralysed - not only in their arms or legs, but also their breathing muscles, which put them at risk of suffocation.

By 2002, the incurable and deadly disease of polio had also been eradicated from much of the world. This included the UK, the rest of Europe, the western Pacific and the Americas.

Meningitis C:

Meningitis C has been virtually eliminated since the men C vaccine was introduced in the UK in 1999 (the first country in the world to offer the jab). There has been a 99% reduction in cases of meningitis C among those aged under 20 since vaccination started.

-----------

I have taken them figures straight from the NHS UK website, I know from looking at other papers that these figures seem quite well spread across developed countries. So yes there is a CHANCE that you have a 1 in 100,000/million (depending on what estimates you want to believe) you will get one of these horrendous side effect. Then again, alternatively, it seems like the odds of you getting the disease they actually prevent seems to be a lot higher then them odds.

I DID say I would have taken the polio vaccination. Truth be known, I DID seek it out, even though I was a little kid! For some reason, I was kind of skipped earlier, but I didn't like the chance of being paralyzed. As for meningitis, hepititus, etc.... I am VERY low risk for that, so I have been lucky. I ALSO got ALL the popular things given out in the 60s and 70s. That includes polio, smallpox, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, etc.... I HAVE had the chicken pox, measles, and a few others.

I am effectively saying what I don't like, etc... I will take vaccines based on a risk analysis.

Steve

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butters 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I am effectively saying what I don't like, etc... I will take vaccines based on a risk analysis.

Steve

Thats fair enough, I just thought I'd throw out some stats and figures not just for you but for others in this post. I am glad you would get vaccinated, ok, its for your reasons but I want to give a very strong reason for the future. This goes to everyone in this post or who is reading it...

Paul brought up a very strong point earlier. He mentioned others suffering from certain conditions can not be vaccinated and live in constant fear due to this. One of the strongest defences they have against these illnesses they can not be vaccinated for is community inferred resistance. Essentially, if the whole community around you has been vaccinated and is prevented from getting the diseases (Rare cases aside), that means that they have also a dramatically lower chance of catching the virus.

Recent news stories about Disney Land comes to mind, children to young or un vaccinated people caught a disease because of someone who should of been vaccinated but wasn't. If the community gets vaccinated we help people who medically can't!
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HeySal

11 years ago

Steve - vacs can cause autism. Just look at the warning on the side of the packaging they come in. Duh. In other countries the pharms get sued when something goes wrong - here we are not allowed to sue when they cause death or morbidity. Merck's in trouble again, though - and this time in the US. Bet you won't see that on mainstream media.

I retain the right not to vaccinate. If someone can tell me what I have to do with my body, then I am a slave. IF you want to risk it go for it. I refuse to have my health dictated by Wall Street.

If vaccinating 95% of a population actually and truthfully eradicated the disease/virus from the globe then we wouldn't have polio at all right now. Those vacs were manditory when I was a kid and reached concentration that there should no longer be a polio disease. They don't do what it's said they do. Just because an "authority" says anything - doesn't make it true. Follow the money, and follow the stats. Did you know that kids being vac'd for measles are getting measles or that there are people that get flu vaccines dying of the flu?

Worry about your own asses and quit trying to dictate what I will do with my own body. If your vaccines work, you don't have to worry about me being a risk to you.

Merck - lied about mumps vaccine 2012
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm

Lawsuit information - Judicial Watch vs US Gov
US gov gives 6 mil in compensation to gardisil suit victims:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/127829695/...aint-2-28-2013

Here's what they say about the new flu vaccine:
BTW - this webiste has info on all vaccines - pro and con - plus the warning info from pkgs, etc. so you
can make an informed decision about a vaccine.
http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-New...a-Vaccine.aspx

Can't deal with info not from mainstream media? NBC news okay for ya?
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cold-f...accine-n261226

Seriously -- do you really trust your health to politics? If you do, get the vaccines. If you don't, do the research and make sure your vaccines have had sufficient trials and do not contain contamination - read the warning labels. Do NOT trust your health to political campaigns based on pharmaceutical profits. Do NOT attempt to take other people's rights to their own body. Remember - if you take ours, we can take yours. This is the same issue as fluoride in water used to be......then we discovered the full scale of the sodium fluoride scam. Millions have been badly effected by sodium fluoride because of well meaning people who insisted they were told the truth. We know better now.

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Karen Blundell

11 years ago

we should all have the right to opt out of vaccines - not just in the US -
What we do to our bodies, should be our choice - no one else's.

anyone I know who has ever got a flu vaccine, got violently ill with the flu within a few days to a few weeks after -
so I never get a flu shot. Instead I eat foods that build up the immune system and take at least 1000 mg of vitamin C daily. And, touch wood, I have not had the flu in years.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

we should all have the right to opt out of vaccines - not just in the US -
What we do to our bodies, should be our choice - no one else's.

anyone I know who has ever got a flu vaccine, got violently ill with the flu within a few days to a few weeks after -
so I never get a flu shot. Instead I eat foods that build up the immune system and take at least 1000 mg of vitamin C daily. And, touch wood, I have not had the flu in years.

Flu can't survive in high levels of Vit D and C. Why is it that people are okay with a vac but not okay with that? That's brainwashing. Some of those heavy metals in vacs are just dead dangerous and they tank the immune system, so you end up vac'd for one illness and more susceptible to all the rest. Even the CDC admits there's problems with the flu vaccine -- yet it still pushes people to get them. Rather suspicious?

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

we should all have the right to opt out of vaccines - not just in the US -
What we do to our bodies, should be our choice - no one else's.

Not necessarily true. Getting vaccines for things like TB in the past were mandatory in some areas of the World.

Sure, you have the right to opt out of stuff if you want to live 2,000 miles away from any Civilization in Papa New Guinea.

If you are going to live in a Civilized Community with Laws and a Government then people who you interact with you have the inalienable right to be protected against you in extreme conditions like TB or other potentially deadly infectious diseases.

Iam sorry but if you are going to be in my presence I have a fundamental right to be protected from any really serious and deadly crap you carry..

Nobody is going to tell me anything different. If people do not like it I tell them there is the door to some South American jungles they can do whatever they want with their body

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Not necessarily true. Getting vaccines for things like TB in the past were mandatory in some areas of the World.

Sure, you have the right to opt out of stuff if you want to live 2,000 miles away from any Civilization in Papa New Guinea.

If you are going to live in a Civilized Community with Laws and a Government then people who you interact with you have the inalienable right to be protected against you in extreme conditions like TB or other potentially deadly infectious diseases.

Iam sorry but if you are going to be in my presence I have a fundamental right to be protected from any really serious and deadly crap you carry..

Nobody is going to tell me anything different. If people do not like it I tell them there is the door to some South American jungles they can do whatever they want with their body

If the vaccines work - why would it matter to you if I have one or not? Isn't that what they are supposed to be for? Actually, the non-vacc'd are in more danger from YOU because you can still carry and pass the disease.

I had to be vacc'd for polio - it was "mandatory". Well, ya know what - decades later we have a 60% increase in cancer and it's now public info that the polio vaccines were laced with live cancer.

I don't have to trust anyone I don't want to trust. For me it's not as much of an issue for others, because I'm allergic to most vaccines. I hate fascism - in any form. There's a lot of doctors that don't vac their kids, or only for the main killers. Why? Why are people so willing to trust a corporate run entity with their lives without dead heavy research? I don't mean the evening news, your doctor's office, or websites - I mean REAL research. This is not just your life you are harping on. This is my freedom of medical choice that everyone who knows nothing is screaming about. Just like Obama care - Screamed your face off and didn't even read the bill.

Leave me alone. Get your vac and if it works like it's supposed to, I am no threat to you whatsoever.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Steve - vacs can cause autism. Just look at the warning on the side of the packaging they come in. Duh. In other countries the pharms get sued when something goes wrong - here we are not allowed to sue when they cause death or morbidity. Merck's in trouble again, though - and this time in the US. Bet you won't see that on mainstream media.

There is actually a law that MANDATES that they say they cause things they don't, like autism! Any such claims are to be disclosed! I have ******NEVER***** heard of a case of autism caused by a vaccination. NEVER! And I have heard all the stories, like the one from "autism speaks", where the founders say their kid got autism from an injection, etc..... As I have said many times, that is NOT AUTISM! It is CDD!!!!!!!!! Can a vaccination cause CDD, in theory? OF COURSE!!!!!! They have known that for about 100 years! SERIOUSLY, next year is the CENTENNIAL! That predates even the vaccination. I mean GB is a NEUROLOGICAL disorder, and so is CDD. Autism is different though. GB, and CDD, is like hardware breaking down. Autism is like it getting mapped wrong, or a problem with the software.

I retain the right not to vaccinate. If someone can tell me what I have to do with my body, then I am a slave. IF you want to risk it go for it. I refuse to have my health dictated by Wall Street.

HEY, I AGREED with you! I simply took a myth out of the equation, and added a few facts that doctors can only try to EXPLAIN away. I even said how you can get the person giving the shot to PROVE that I am telling you the truth. There IS a law, imposed by the FDA and simply business practices, that they MUST give you "or make available" a disclosure telling you some things about the manufacture of the shot, precautions you must take, and what to watch out for. NORMALLY, if you buy a product over the counter, it is on the container, or in a pamphlet inside. With vaccines, you may never see ANYTHING, but they ARE mandated to provide it.

If vaccinating 95% of a population actually and truthfully eradicated the disease/virus from the globe then we wouldn't have polio at all right now. Those vacs were manditory when I was a kid and reached concentration that there should no longer be a polio disease. They don't do what it's said they do. Just because an "authority" says anything - doesn't make it true. Follow the money, and follow the stats. Did you know that kids being vac'd for measles are getting measles or that there are people that get flu vaccines dying of the flu?

Well, doctors will say that there is no "THE FLU"! They will say it mutates, etc.... The idea is supposed to be that it has a special protein coat, and THAT is what your immune system hunts. That will often change. They supposedly created a vaccine for AIDS! The PROBLEM was that it only worked on their test strain. Anyway, the common cold supposedly mutates more frequently, which is why they never made a vaccine for it.

But YEAH! When I was a kid, they said that they had a vaccine for chicken pox. NOW, they say it simply goes into hiding, and may come back as shingles. NOW, they supposedly have a vaccine for shingles.

Worry about your own asses and quit trying to dictate what I will do with my own body. If your vaccines work, you don't have to worry about me being a risk to you.

I'm with you on that. I RARELY get vaccinated. I gladly accepted the polio vaccine, but that is probably the only one worthwhile.

Seriously -- do you really trust your health to politics? If you do, get the vaccines. If you don't, do the research and make sure your vaccines have had sufficient trials and do not contain contamination - read the warning labels. Do NOT trust your health to political campaigns based on pharmaceutical profits. Do NOT attempt to take other people's rights to their own body. Remember - if you take ours, we can take yours. This is the same issue as fluoride in water used to be......then we discovered the full scale of the sodium fluoride scam. Millions have been badly effected by sodium fluoride because of well meaning people who insisted they were told the truth. We know better now.

I don't trust the US government AT ALL! I watched "the color of friendship" this morning. NICE movie, by the way. I'll spare you the tangential thoughts. Anyway, it boiled down to misinformation from the governments and to the people. I know most of the information in that movie was true. Taking the true parts, it is about how the US and south african governments treated information and the people.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Yawn ... that long discredited myth about vaccines and autism yet again. lol.

The Person who perpetuated that myth, Dr. Wakefield was paid more than $665,000 by lawyers trying to prove that the MMR vaccine was unsafe.

A Brief History Of How People Got Duped By The Vaccine-Autism Myth

But yeah ... people who don't want to immunize against the usual and customary diseases don't need to.

And doctors and hospitals and any public place from schools to theaters, to restaurants, to Disney World also don't need to allow people without immunizations into their establishments and organizations. Seems completely fair to me in the interest of public health and all.

Everyone will have to carry their immunization records with them to gain entrance to "vaccinated only" establishments.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-li...s/art-20048334
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/g...m-201101061067

Now British journalist Brian Deer may finally put the matter to rest. An experienced investigative reporter, he tracked down and interviewed the original participants in Wakefield’s study. He also compared medical records with what was published in the 1998 study. It turns out that Wakefield wasn’t just misinterpreting data — he was making much of it up.

For a tour de force of reporting, read Deer’s article, published in the BMJ (formerly the British Medical Journal) and available free online.

In an editorial that accompanies Deer’s report, the BMJ editors call the Wakefield paper for what it is: Fraud. As they write,

“Deer unearthed clear evidence of falsification. He found that not one of the 12 cases reported in the 1998 Lancet paper was free of misrepresentation or undisclosed alteration, and that in no single case could the medical records be fully reconciled with the descriptions, diagnoses, or histories published in the journal.”

The blogosphere has erupted with commentary. The Wall St. Journal blog and WebMD provide good overviews. Gary Schwitzer of HealthNewsReview also weighs in, citing the story as one more reminder of why it’s important that reporters always question medical findings before promoting them at face value. And for a really tart (yet on-target) summary of the whole matter, read this entry by the Respectful Insolence blogger.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The Person who perpetuated that myth, Dr. Wakefield was paid more than $665,000 by lawyers trying to prove that the MMR vaccine was unsafe.

He was also struck off the UK Medical Register. Rightly.

I don't normally discuss this one, in forums: I get too irate and angry about it (having studied it in such great detail as part of my first degree). It's an absolute tragedy the damage that a very small, very vociferous group of deeply opinionated, ill-informed people acting out of fear, ignorance and prejudice have done, over this issue.

In some parts of the world, the death-rate (and post-encephalitic brain-damage incidence) from pediatric measles, which is a far more serious disease, on a societal level, than most people imagine, has still not yet fully reduced to its pre-scandal levels.

On another level, it's a simple, viral illness and there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't successfully get rid of it as we did with polio. And many countries were close to doing that, before this appalling scandal.

And by the way, contrary to what some people claim, there's no mercury (or thiomersal) in MMR vaccine, these days, either.

No more from me in this thread.

.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

There's no point arguing vaccination with people who want to believe in fairy tales about "harmful" mercury and autism.

The autism claims are BS and have been proven so. The form of mercury that was once used in vaccines is water soluble, and easily eliminated from the body. That's why the levels used were so much higher than those allowed for tuna, for example. The type in tuna builds up and stays in the body. The type in vaccines didn't.

The folks who use the "It's my body, I can do what I want with it" comments would probably change their tunes if they stopped to think about the fact that drunk drivers say the same things. Then they go out and put innocent strangers or their own families at risk.

If you don't believe the anti-vaxxers' gospel, though, you're accused of being a blind follower.

Newsflash for the anti-science renegades: Having dark fleece doesn't make you any less a sheep.

Paul

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

I'm not really interested in debating the vaccine causes whatever issue. I was hoping for a discussion on whether people should be required to have, in this case, the MMR vaccine.

As you know, I am big on personal liberties and rights, so my no-opt-out stance would seem to be a contradiction. Not so.

The decision not to immunize violates the personal rights and liberties of others by exposing them to unnecessary medical and financial risks.

Neither you nor I have the right to do that.

Joe Mobley

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

I'm not really interested in debating the vaccine causes whatever issue. I was hoping for a discussion on whether people should be required to have, in this case, the MMR vaccine.

As you know, I am big on personal liberties and rights, so my no-opt-out stance would seem to be a contradiction. Not so.

The decision not to immunize violates the personal rights and liberties of others by exposing them to unnecessary medical and financial risks.

Neither you nor I have the right to do that.

Joe Mobley

Just because your vaccinated do illegals not exist in the US? Do they go away?

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

There's no point arguing vaccination with people who want to believe in fairy tales about "harmful" mercury and autism.

The autism claims are BS and have been proven so. The form of mercury that was once used in vaccines is water soluble, and easily eliminated from the body. That's why the levels used were so much higher than those allowed for tuna, for example. The type in tuna builds up and stays in the body. The type in vaccines didn't.

The folks who use the "It's my body, I can do what I want with it" comments would probably change their tunes if they stopped to think about the fact that drunk drivers say the same things. Then they go out and put innocent strangers or their own families at risk.

If you don't believe the anti-vaxxers' gospel, though, you're accused of being a blind follower.

Newsflash for the anti-science renegades: Having dark fleece doesn't make you any less a sheep.

Paul

I'm supposed to trust people with my health that don't even know how to read a damned drug package to decide whether a side effect is possible or not? Come on, Paul - you're smarter than this. Just read the darned package - and don't tell us that it's BS until you do. It's that simple to know the real fact. Really. If people can't read, it's not my problem and I don't appreciate my freedoms being gambled by those who take any word for it but can't read the package.

I tell ya what - since all these illnesses are transmitted so easily because of people dropping babies left and right so we have people crawling over each other like ants - lets start forceably sterilizing people after their first child. Then the population will drop and all these illnesses will be a lot easier to contain. Don't like that? Tough - we're overpopulated and have to do something about it pretty soon. Start sterilizing and I'll go get a vaccine. Your rights are not any more important than mine. Over population is everyone's problem - so why aren't we sterilizing yet? Because of your freedom? I don't like it. I want forced sterilization, and it would make ecological sense, and may even save the planet if we started doing so.

Taking rights is a very double edged sword.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I'm supposed to trust people with my health that don't even know how to read a damned drug package to decide whether a side effect is possible or not? Come on, Paul - you're smarter than this. Just read the darned package - and don't tell us that it's BS until you do. It's that simple to know the real fact. Really. If people can't read, it's not my problem and I don't appreciate my freedoms being gambled by those who take any word for it but can't read the package.

I tell ya what - since all these illnesses are transmitted so easily because of people dropping babies left and right so we have people crawling over each other like ants - lets start forceably sterilizing people after their first child. Then the population will drop and all these illnesses will be a lot easier to contain. Don't like that? Tough - we're overpopulated and have to do something about it pretty soon. Start sterilizing and I'll go get a vaccine. Your rights are not any more important than mine. Over population is everyone's problem - so why aren't we sterilizing yet? Because of your freedom? I don't like it. I want forced sterilization, and it would make ecological sense, and may even save the planet if we started doing so.

Taking rights is a very double edged sword.

Heysal,

I hate to say it, but what I said here IS clear fact! The Autism stats are WILDLY TAINTED! So the fantastic increase mentioned is all a contrivance. They call almost ANYTHING AUTISM now! HECK, there is a thread saying that Vladamir Putin has autism because he supposedly walks with a limp or something, and his mother supposedly had a stroke while she was pregnant.

And there IS a law that certain recognized claims should be reflected and specified on the warnings. Some companies even go a bit overboard with that because it helps limit their liability.

So just because a problem is listed on the pamphlet doesn't mean you will get it or even that it was ever due to the drug. This is ESPECIALLY true with the psychiatric ailments. WHY? Because they trust that doctors are diligent, untainted, honest, logical, and can read the DSM. If they should fail to do so, they taint the stats. With so many THOUSANDS tainting the stats EVERY DAY, it becomes a mountain of a mess that may NEVER be cleared up. And constant changes in the DSM do NOT help.

Steve

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Cali16

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

The Autism stats are WILDLY TAINTED! So the fantastic increase mentioned is all a contrivance. They call almost ANYTHING AUTISM now!

With so many THOUSANDS tainting the stats EVERY DAY, it becomes a mountain of a mess that may NEVER be cleared up. And constant changes in the DSM do NOT help.

Steve, where are you getting your information about autism stats being "wildly tainted", or the idea that "they" call almost anything autism now?

I can tell you from years of professional experience that a diagnosis of an autistic spectrum disorder (or any other disorder) is absolutely not given lightly. I was always very careful when diagnosing patients and clients, and always did my best to give the most accurate diagnosis possible (that's an important aspect of professional ethics and integrity). And in my experience, that's true of the vast majority of mental health and medical professionals (I've worked closely with many over the years).

Are misdiagnoses made? Yes. It's not a perfect science and probably never will be. Some cases are puzzling and don't fit neatly into any diagnostic category. And sometimes we (the ones making the diagnoses) don't get accurate information from patients or their families.

Is the DSM flawed? Yes. Is the ICD (International Classification of Diseases) flawed? Yes. There is no perfect diagnostic system.

As for those "constant changes in the DSM" - um, shall we take a look at DSM revisions over the years (the "R" and "TR" were relatively minor revisions to those two editions)?

1952 - DSM-I
1968 - DSM-II
1980 - DSM-III
1987 - DSM-III-R
1994 - DSM-IV
2000 - DSM-IV-TR
2013 - DSM-5

There have been only 4 major revisions and 2 minor revisions of the DSM over the span of 60 years since the first version was published in 1952.

As for the dangers of vaccines, the American Academy of Pediatrics published this report in 2013 that shows over 40 studies that refute many of the common myths and concerns about the dangers of vaccines:

https://www2.aap.org/immunization/fa...inestudies.pdf

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Steve, where are you getting your information about autism stats being "wildly tainted", or the idea that "they" call almost anything autism now?

I can tell you from years of professional experience that a diagnosis of an autistic spectrum disorder is absolutely not given lightly (nor are other disorders). I was always very careful and cautious when diagnosing patients and clients. And in my experience, so are the vast majority of most mental health and medical professionals (and I've worked closely with many over the years).

Are misdiagnoses made? Yes. It's not a perfect science and probably never will be. Some cases are puzzling and don't fit neatly into any diagnostic category. And sometimes we (the ones making the diagnoses) don't get accurate information from patients or their families.

If YOU are doing so well, GREAT! I APPRECIATE IT! But look at court cases, and various rumors spread, etc... That VP statement. Some of those are done by "medical professionals" ESPECIALLY in court cases where they MUST be! Look at the people claiming to be diagnosed. Some even say what to do to get the diagnosis, and where to go. SO, SORRY, IT IS! And ****EVEN**** if it were 100% on the UP AND UP, the OFFICIAL DSM, in the last 40 years has changed a LOT! People SPECIFICALLY EXcluded now have a new classification written JUST FOR THEM!(I'm referring to the changes for HFA and the additions for NOS and AS) Is that wrong? NO. But it DOES wildly increase the number of cases.

Is the DSM flawed? Yes. Is the ICD (International Classification of Diseases) flawed? Yes. There is no perfect diagnostic system.

As for those "constant changes in the DSM" - um, shall we take a look at DSM revisions over the years (the "R" and "TR" were relatively minor revisions to those two editions)?

1952 - DSM-I
1968 - DSM-II
1980 - DSM-III
1987 - DSM-III-R
1994 - DSM-IV
2000 - DSM-IV-TR
2013 - DSM-5

There have been only 4 major revisions and 2 minor revisions of the DSM over the span of 60 years since the first version was published in 1952.

[FONT=&quot]As for the dangers of vaccines, the American Academy of Pediatrics published this report in 2013 that shows over 40 studies that refute many of the common myths and concerns about the dangers of vaccines:

Well, the idea of mercury is one that I dislike solely because it is CUMULATIVE and unnecessary. That is NOT to say that it will necessarily do harm. As for the GB danger, it IS recognized by the medical community. HOW did I find out about it? I read it on the list of concerns, FROM THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY, and looked it up! As for the increase in autism stats? EVEN in this one post, I gave clear proof as to why THAT is garbage. It IS a myth.

Steve

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Steve, where are you getting your information about autism stats being "wildly tainted", or the idea that "they" call almost anything autism now?

I believe the scientific term your are searching for is 'anus.'

Cheers. - Frank

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Kay King

11 years ago

information about autism stats being "wildly tainted", or the idea that "they" call almost anything autism now?

I don't think that attitude is unusual. Autism as a diagnosis is fairly new (1940's?) and has been expanded to include a much wider range of problems and behaviors.

As a society we've accepted the expansion of some diagnoses to a rather ridiculous degree - ADHD is one that has been over diagnosed and over medicated.

I've heard people ask why "we have so much autism now" and their conclusion is we are "doing something to cause it". In reality - medical advances began to properly categorize and diagnose a disease previously not accepted as "a disease".

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Sal,

Wow. So, that page says elemental mercury can't be broken down. Wuddyaknow? Elemental anything can't be. That's the definition of "elemental," innit?

I didn't say the form of mercury that was used in vaccines couldn't possibly be harmful. I said it was more easily eliminated from the body and wasn't harmful in the concentrations used. You have yet to show any proof that this statement is incorrect.

Can you say "reductio ad absurdum?"

Sodium is an extremely dangerous element. Chlorine is highly toxic. Table salt, which contains these two hazardous chemicals, can be dangerous in sufficient quantities, but not in small occasional "doses."

Paul
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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't think that attitude is unusual. Autism as a diagnosis is fairly new (1940's?) and has been expanded to include a much wider range of problems and behaviors.

As a society we've accepted the expansion of some diagnoses to a rather ridiculous degree - ADHD is one that has been over diagnosed and over medicated.

I've heard people ask why "we have so much autism now" and their conclusion is we are "doing something to cause it". In reality - medical advances began to properly categorize and diagnose a disease previously not accepted as "a disease".

Truly, watching a rational argument unfold...is a beautiful thing to see.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't think that attitude is unusual. Autism as a diagnosis is fairly new (1940's?) and has been expanded to include a much wider range of problems and behaviors.

As a society we've accepted the expansion of some diagnoses to a rather ridiculous degree - ADHD is one that has been over diagnosed and over medicated.

I've heard people ask why "we have so much autism now" and their conclusion is we are "doing something to cause it". In reality - medical advances began to properly categorize and diagnose a disease previously not accepted as "a disease".

EXACTLY! As I said, the diagnosis has been broadened SO much that even in the absence of all the negligence, the statistics are heavily tainted.

Steve

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Kurt

11 years ago

Penn and Teller on Vaccinations - YouTube

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Insano

11 years ago

The genuine questions is - do we want the genes of people who happily risk preventable diseases inside of the global gene pool?

I think we have fought natural selection for to long, this is why people like Lady Gaga, Jackass, and George "Dubya" Bush gained popularity (and of those 3 I respect Gaga the most).

Because we allowed the ones who are to stupid to keep 2 sheep on a piece of paper, to be raped by banks with "easy" loans, credit cards, leasing and mortgages, we are facing a devaluation of money, massive national debts which will be thrown at 5 generations after us (if not more), a cancer in the monetary system.

Stupid ones are prefered by Marketing and Lobbies, because they dont question what they hear. So if they decide to parachute with an umbrella, put a fork in the toster, listen radio in the bathtub or dont vaccinate their children - I say let them do it.

Producers of Baby coffins have to live from something, dont they?

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

The genuine questions is - do we want the genes of people who happily risk preventable diseases inside of the global gene pool?
.......

So if they decide to parachute with an umbrella, put a fork in the toster, listen radio in the bathtub or dont vaccinate their children - I say let them do it.

Producers of Baby coffins have to live from something, dont they?

Got a point except for the fact that they're not just putting their own children at risk. They put other people's children at risk, along with people who can't get vaccinations for medical reasons. Children don't get the MMR until about a year old.

That, plus I really don't hold it against the children of anti-vaxxers. You don't get to choose your parents.

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Insano

11 years ago

There is even a standardization of values in the pamphlets as to how high the risk for certain side effects are ie: very often - 1:100, often 1:1000, common - 1:10000, uncommon - 1:100.000 etc... (values might deviate since im drunk)

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Insano

11 years ago

4 months ago, before my son was born, my wife was worked by one of her friend not to vaccinate the baby. She is pretty suitable for suggestions so we went trough everything we could find on pros and cons. We have one case in the friends circle of an authistic boy, whos mother claims he was "normal" before he got vaccinated. Though, due the fact that both, her and her husband are genetically on the loosing side (mostly sick, weak stature, small, not what I would call highly inteligent) I rather saw this, and her smoking during the pregnancy as the reason for the authism.

Fact is: There is a bunch of documentation which proofs the benefits of vaccinating your kid, and not one single documented case which brings vaccines and authism together.

additionally: the definition of authism is changing year after year, so currently we are looking at a diagnosis with 200+ symptoms.

Beside implementation of vaccines at the same time as the often mentioned "increase in authism cases" we gained a vast amount of additional polutants in the air, water, food, which havent been around 100 years ago. And since authism is beeing categorized with additional symptoms, children who would be called "retarded" 50y ago, are now categorized as authistic.

long story short. after evaluating the pros and cons, we decided to vaccinate our boy, he took all the shots till now with ease, is a hansom, strong, and smart 4 months old baby. And I hope that more people will, before making such a decission for the health of their children, take their time and research facts, rather than believing everything they hear

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

Though, due the fact that both, her and her husband are genetically on the loosing side (mostly sick, weak stature, small, not what I would call highly inteligent) I rather saw this, and her smoking during the pregnancy as the reason for the authism.

So far EVERY "verified" case I have heard of that was like this was......

Meeting ALL milestones until about 2yo some claim to 4yo, And THEN, after the shot, supposedly, there is a massive REGRESSION.

That is NOT autism and now is recognized as CDD. Medscape: Medscape Access

But I don't know what took people SOOOO long to see the tie between smoking and all the problems now recognized. The same goes for drinking, drugs, etc....

Childhood disintegrative disorder occurs in about 2 per 100,000 children and thus is much rarer than either autistic disorder, which affects 20 per 10,000 children, or pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), which occurs in 30 per 10,000 children.[1] Childhood disintegrative disorder generally manifests by the fourth year of life, after a period of at least 2 years of normal development.

BTW there is often NO real tie to the vaccine. It could be simply that it is close enough, or earlier, and they simply had bad luck. It turns out that apparently EVERYONES brain is pruned around 2,8, and 13. Supposedly this happens with damaged tissue, and neurons that haven't been used enough. Sometimes THAT system goes nuts, and prunes the wrong things, and causes this.

Steve

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Insano

11 years ago

seasoned the term you are looking for is Lupus I think and it is aswell an auto-immune condition. Allergies have been proven to be connected with exaggerated fear of germs and bacteria, we live in "clean" living conditions, and dont even let our children play in dirt. The beauty of the human defensive mechanism is that it adapts, and it learns the fastest during the childhood where it doesnt have a lot of power to harm the "host". Later, when it meets something unknown it tends to overreact causing autoimmune issues like allergies.

But I wouldn't put lupus, allergies, cancer and polio in the same basket if I were you. The only known immunity against the child killer nr 1. trough ages is a an anti-polio vaccination. If a host without "trained" anti-bodies is subjected to polio, it will catch the illness, there is no inborn immunisation.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

seasoned the term you are looking for is Lupus I think and it is aswell an auto-immune condition.

NOPE! NOT the one I am talking about.

Allergies have been proven to be connected with exaggerated fear of germs and bacteria, we live in "clean" living conditions, and dont even let our children play in dirt. The beauty of the human defensive mechanism is that it adapts, and it learns the fastest during the childhood where it doesnt have a lot of power to harm the "host". Later, when it meets something unknown it tends to overreact causing autoimmune issues like allergies.

WOW, you should let the medical industry know! I had a coworker that had a kid that was allergic to almost EVERYTHING, FROM BIRTH!!!!! Maybe you should tell HIM what to do, assuming that his kid is still alive.

But I wouldn't put lupus, allergies, cancer and polio in the same basket if I were you. The only known immunity against the child killer nr 1. trough ages is a an anti-polio vaccination. If a host without "trained" anti-bodies is subjected to polio, it will catch the illness, there is no inborn immunisation.

AGAIN, WHO KNOWS!?!?!?!? Did YOU know that a group of people DID have an "inborn immunization" to Small pox!?" YEP! A guy by the name of Jenner saw the pattern and figured out WHY. THAT is probably where the idea got the name vaccine!

Steve

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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

Allergies have been proven to be connected with exaggerated fear of germs and bacteria, we live in "clean" living conditions, and dont even let our children play in dirt. The beauty of the human defensive mechanism is that it adapts, and it learns the fastest during the childhood where it doesnt have a lot of power to harm the "host". Later, when it meets something unknown it tends to overreact causing autoimmune issues like allergies.

Excuse me?

Where on earth did you come up with that?

I have been developing allergies since the age of 35 quite rapidly and as a child was called by my parents "The dirt magnet". The things I have developed an allergy to are things I had a lot of contact with as a child. Cats, bees, dust, mold, penicillin, antibiotics, etc.

I played in mud puddles, the fields, the creeks, rivers and lakes. I caught frogs, lizards, grasshoppers, etc. I climbed trees and played marbles in the dirt. I played baseball, football, volleyball, basketball, tag, hide-and-seek, and red rover all in the dirt.

But my most favorite pastime? Making mud pies!

As an adult, I love gardening, getting my hands in the soil, planting bulbs, seeds and plants themselves. In the summer months, I go barefoot as often as I can. I made mud pies with my children and still am making them with my grandchildren.

I have never been afraid of germs or bacteria! Too clean of an environment? Right!!

As a matter of fact, here is a list of autoimmune and autoimmune-related diseases from the American Autoimmune Related Diseases Association.

Autoimmune and Autoimmune-Related Diseases

Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis (ADEM)
Acute necrotizing hemorrhagic leukoencephalitis
Addison’s disease
Agammaglobulinemia
Alopecia areata
Amyloidosis
Ankylosing spondylitis
Anti-GBM/Anti-TBM nephritis
Antiphospholipid syndrome (APS)
Autoimmune angioedema
Autoimmune aplastic anemia
Autoimmune dysautonomia
Autoimmune hepatitis
Autoimmune hyperlipidemia
Autoimmune immunodeficiency
Autoimmune inner ear disease (AIED)
Autoimmune myocarditis
Autoimmune oophoritis
Autoimmune pancreatitis
Autoimmune retinopathy
Autoimmune thrombocytopenic purpura (ATP)
Autoimmune thyroid disease
Autoimmune urticaria
Axonal & neuronal neuropathies
Balo disease
Behcet’s disease
Bullous pemphigoid
Cardiomyopathy
Castleman disease
Celiac disease
Chagas disease
Chronic fatigue syndrome**
Chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy (CIDP)
Chronic recurrent multifocal ostomyelitis (CRMO)
Churg-Strauss syndrome
Cicatricial pemphigoid/benign mucosal pemphigoid
Crohn’s disease
Cogans syndrome
Cold agglutinin disease
Congenital heart block
Coxsackie myocarditis
CREST disease
Essential mixed cryoglobulinemia
Demyelinating neuropathies
Dermatitis herpetiformis
Dermatomyositis
Devic’s disease (neuromyelitis optica)
Discoid lupus
Dressler’s syndrome
Endometriosis
Eosinophilic esophagitis
Eosinophilic fasciitis
Erythema nodosum
Experimental allergic encephalomyelitis
Evans syndrome
Fibromyalgia**
Fibrosing alveolitis
Giant cell arteritis (temporal arteritis)
Giant cell myocarditis
Glomerulonephritis
Goodpasture’s syndrome
Granulomatosis with Polyangiitis (GPA) (formerly called Wegener’s Granulomatosis)
Graves’ disease
Guillain-Barre syndrome
Hashimoto’s encephalitis
Hashimoto’s thyroiditis
Hemolytic anemia
Henoch-Schonlein purpura
Herpes gestationis
Hypogammaglobulinemia
Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP)
IgA nephropathy
IgG4-related sclerosing disease
Immunoregulatory lipoproteins
Inclusion body myositis
Interstitial cystitis
Juvenile arthritis
Juvenile diabetes (Type 1 diabetes)
Juvenile myositis
Kawasaki syndrome
Lambert-Eaton syndrome
Leukocytoclastic vasculitis
Lichen planus
Lichen sclerosus
Ligneous conjunctivitis
Linear IgA disease (LAD)
Lupus (SLE)
Lyme disease, chronic
Meniere’s disease
Microscopic polyangiitis
Mixed connective tissue disease (MCTD)
Mooren’s ulcer
Mucha-Habermann disease
Multiple sclerosis
Myasthenia gravis
Myositis
Narcolepsy
Neuromyelitis optica (Devic’s)
Neutropenia
Ocular cicatricial pemphigoid
Optic neuritis
Palindromic rheumatism
PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcus)
Paraneoplastic cerebellar degeneration
Paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria (PNH)
Parry Romberg syndrome
Parsonnage-Turner syndrome
Pars planitis (peripheral uveitis)
Pemphigus
Peripheral neuropathy
Perivenous encephalomyelitis
Pernicious anemia
POEMS syndrome
Polyarteritis nodosa
Type I, II, & III autoimmune polyglandular syndromes
Polymyalgia rheumatica
Polymyositis
Postmyocardial infarction syndrome
Postpericardiotomy syndrome
Progesterone dermatitis
Primary biliary cirrhosis
Primary sclerosing cholangitis
Psoriasis
Psoriatic arthritis
Idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis
Pyoderma gangrenosum
Pure red cell aplasia
Raynauds phenomenon
Reactive Arthritis
Reflex sympathetic dystrophy
Reiter’s syndrome
Relapsing polychondritis
Restless legs syndrome
Retroperitoneal fibrosis
Rheumatic fever
Rheumatoid arthritis
Sarcoidosis
Schmidt syndrome
Scleritis
Scleroderma
Sjogren’s syndrome
Sperm & testicular autoimmunity
Stiff person syndrome
Subacute bacterial endocarditis (SBE)
Susac’s syndrome
Sympathetic ophthalmia
Takayasu’s arteritis
Temporal arteritis/Giant cell arteritis
Thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP)
Tolosa-Hunt syndrome
Transverse myelitis
Type 1 diabetes
Ulcerative colitis
Undifferentiated connective tissue disease (UCTD)
Uveitis
Vasculitis
Vesiculobullous dermatosis
Vitiligo
Wegener’s granulomatosis (now termed Granulomatosis with Polyangiitis (GPA)

**NOTE: Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue are listed, not because they are autoimmune, but because many persons who suffer from them have associated autoimmune disease(s)

American Autoimmune Related Diseases Association
22100 Gratiot Avenue
Eastpointe, MI 48021-2227
AARDA

Did you notice anything missing from that list? Like allergies, perhaps?

Next time you want to use the cause of allergies as an argument in a debate, check your facts first.

Terra

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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW insano,

Your theory is illogical for SEVERAL clear reasons! According to your theories.....

1. YOUNG people can NOT have dangerous allergies! (NOT TRUE)
2. OLDER people can NOT develop new immunities without an ever increasing danger of a dangerous allergy. This kind of speaks AGAINST vaccines!
3. NO young people have allergies! (NOT TRUE)

Steve

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@tjr

11 years ago

I think the real problem here is that the ratio of lollipops to shots given has been dropping for decades.

I wish I could say this is the funniest joke in the thread, but I just read far too many essays with needless capitalization.

sigh

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James McAllister

11 years ago

No.

I think half the anti-vaxxers genuinely believe that vaccines are harmful.

The other half are people who feel they are elite or 'cool' because they "know the truth." They define themselves this way because they have nothing else in their life to be proud of.

In the end, their emotion will overrule any science or factual evidence, and there isn't much you can do to change their mind.

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Insano

11 years ago

just stumbled upon this

from 1940s

not sure we will end this debate anytime soon with a conforming conclusion for all part takers...

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

just stumbled upon this

from 1940s

not sure we will end this debate anytime soon with a conforming conclusion for all part takers...

Interestingly enough, Small pox was DANGEROUS! The cure was a rather mild problem, that probably disappeared quickly, and it was ALL NATURAL! As I said, some ended up being immune SIMPLY because of their lifestyle! HECK, the "shot" could be as simple as LITERALLY, shaking hands!

Given those facts, MOST of the antivaxers today, INCLUDING HEYSAL I'D BET, would NOT be against that vaccination!

Steve

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Sal,

Assuming it actually says what you claim on some warning labels, there's an explanation that makes a lot more sense than the notion that vaccines can rewire the brain: Fending off lawsuits from people who want to believe the pseudoscience we see online.

Warning: Cape does not enable wearer to fly.

AutismSpeaks.org rejects the idea. So does the overwhelming majority of the medical community. But then, you'll write that off to conspiracy or self-interest. Because you assume they all have the same low opinion of humanity you do.

I find it interesting that so many people who claim to be critical thinkers are willing to read "Had vaccine, was diagnosed with autism" as "Vaccine caused autism."

Correlation. Causation. You know the rest.

"Fascist." You do seem to love that word. Sling it around any time anyone disagrees with your pet social positions. Ironic, coming from someone who regularly endorses the notion of forced sterilization.

Do you consider it fascist to have and enforce laws against drunk driving? If not, you're explicitly accepting that societies have the right or obligation to protect their citizens from the harmful consequences of choices made by others.

At that point, the question becomes "Where do you draw the lines?"

What danger does an unvaccinated person present? Ask my friend who's undergoing treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, and has a severely compromised immune system as a result. She somehow got skipped in the vaccination process when she was a kid, and is now terrified of a measles outbreak.

Or ask the parents of children too young to be vaccinated. Or folks with immune systems compromised by cancer treatment. Or anyone who, for sound medical reasons, couldn't be vaccinated.

Or the random sampling of people for whom the vacines didn't "take." They're not all 100% effective, after all.

Or the children of parents who choose to put their own "feelings" ahead of the welfare of the minors in their care.

Why are diseases on the rise now in this country that had been cut to nearly nothing for decades? Because most people of child-bearing age now didn't see them as kids. They don't understand the actual risks they pose to their children.

You know all of that already, though. You just don't care how many people end up dying to protect your fantasies.

Paul

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I find it interesting that so many people who claim to be critical thinkers are willing to read "Had vaccine, was diagnosed with autism" as "Vaccine caused autism."

Correlation. Causation. You know the rest.

Paul

Well, she has yet to produce the box stating that MMR vaccine can cause autism, although she refers to it over and over again.

If such a box exists, it's a screenshot of an artifact from the days when people believed the Wakefield study or it is a vaccine produced by an Italian company.

That would be Merck, the same company that is suing ... see below

In response to repeated legal threats, a public health doctor in Italy has withdrawn advice to curtail use of a controversial drug. The drug, ezetimibe, is a key ingredient in Zetia and Vytorin, which is manufactured by Merck . The cholesterol-lowering drug has been the subject of fierce controversy because it has never been shown to improve clinical outcomes. Despite the controversy, in 2013 the drugs had combined sales of more than $2.6 billion.

It appears that some parent in Italy took a child to get their vaccination. 18 months later, the child is diagnosed with Autism.

Of course ... it's the vaccine's fault. Anybody can see that, and an Italian court found it to be true ... that the vaccine caused the Autism.

The centerpiece of the "courts confirm" article is the 2012 finding of a local Italian court that a child was diagnosed with autism a year after receiving an MMR. The court, in linking the two things, relied very heavily on the retracted and fraudulent 1998 Wakefield MMR Lancet paper and the testimony of a single physician, hired by the plaintiff's attorney (widely known for advising parents on how to avoid compulsory vaccinations). The physician, Massimo Montinari, it seems, has written a book on how vaccines cause autism and peddles an autism "cure" that he's devised.

Italian courts, provincial or otherwise, are not known for basing their rulings in science. They are, after all, part of the system that led to a manslaughter conviction of six scientists for not predicting the 2009 L'Aquila earthquake, disregarding completely the obvious fact that such predictions are not, in fact, scientifically possible. In a similar way, the Italian court that made the MMR-autism ruling-the centerpiece of this latest "courts confirm" tripe-ignored completely the science made available to it and focused almost solely on the retracted Wakefield paper and a physician with a COI in making its decision. A decision that is, by the way, under appeal.

Court Rulings Don't Confirm Autism-Vaccine Link - Forbes

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well, she has yet to produce the box stating that MMR vaccine can cause autism, although she refers to it over and over again.

If such a box exists, it's a screenshot of an artifact from the days when people believed the Wakefield study or it is a vaccine produced by an Italian company.

That would be Merck, the same company that is suing ... see below

It appears that some parent in Italy took a child to get their vaccination. 18 months later, the child is diagnosed with Autism.

Of course ... it's the vaccine's fault. Anybody can see that, and an Italian court found it to be true ... that the vaccine caused the Autism.

For the MMR vaccine, THIS is likely the pamphlet I was talking about. This IS from Merk

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_.../mmr_ii_pi.pdf

NO mention of autism apparently!

NOW, as to MY claim that it is supposed to tell HOW it was made, and about allergies?

Hypersensitivity to Eggs
Live measles vaccine and live mumps vaccine are produced in chick embryo cell culture. Persons with
a history of anaphylactic, anaphylactoid, or other immediate reactions (e.g., hives, swelling of the mouth
and throat, difficulty breathing, hypotension, or shock) subsequent to egg ingestion may be at an
enhanced risk of immediate-type hypersensitivity reactions after receiving vaccines containing traces of
chick embryo antigen. The potential risk to benefit ratio should be carefully evaluated before considering
vaccination in such cases. Such individuals may be vaccinated with extreme caution, having adequate
treatment on hand should a reaction occur (see PRECAUTIONS).{46}
However, the AAP has stated, "Most children with a history of anaphylactic reactions to eggs have no
untoward reactions to measles or MMR vaccine. Persons are not at increased risk if they have egg
allergies that are not anaphylactic, and they should be vaccinated in the usual manner. In addition, skin
testing of egg-allergic children with vaccine has not been predictive of which children will have an
immediate hypersensitivity reaction...Persons with allergies to chickens or chicken feathers are not at
increased risk of reaction to the vaccine."{47}
Hypersensitivity to Neomycin
The AAP states, "Persons who have experienced anaphylactic reactions to topically or systemically
administered neomycin should not receive measles vaccine. Most often, however, neomycin allergy
manifests as a contact dermatitis, which is a delayed-type (cell-mediated) immune response rather than
anaphylaxis. In such persons, an adverse reaction to neomycin in the vaccine would be an erythematous,
pruritic nodule or papule, 48 to 96 hours after vaccination. A history of contact dermatitis to neomycin is
not a contraindication to receiving measles vaccine."{47}
Thrombocytopenia
Individuals with current thrombocytopenia may develop more severe thrombocytopenia following
vaccination. In addition, individuals who experienced thrombocytopenia with the first dose of M-M-R II (or
its component vaccines) may develop thrombocytopenia with repeat doses. Serologic status may be
evaluated to determine whether or not additional doses of vaccine are needed. The potential risk to
benefit ratio should be carefully evaluated before considering vaccination in such cases (see ADVERSE
REACTIONS).

SUPPOSEDLY, it appears, there is no mercury in this one, but they ARE adept at hiding such things.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

SUPPOSEDLY, it appears, there is no mercury in this one, but they ARE adept at hiding such things.

Steve

Significant parts bolded.

Despite the lack of convincing evidence of toxicity of thiomersal when used as a vaccine preservative, the USPHS and AAP determined that thiomersal should be removed from vaccines as a purely precautionary measure. This action was based on the precautionary principle, which assumes that there is no harm in exercising caution even if it later turns out to be unnecessary. The CDC and AAP reasoned that despite the lack of evidence of significant harm in the use of thiomersal in vaccines, the removal of this preservative would increase the public confidence in the safety of vaccines. Although thiomersal was largely removed from routine infant vaccines by summer 2001 in the U.S., some vaccines continue to contain non-trace amounts of thiomersal, mainly in multi-dose vaccines targeted against influenza and tetanus.

In 2004 Quackwatch posted an article saying that chelation therapy has been falsely promoted as effective against autism, and that practitioners falsified diagnoses of metal poisoning to "trick" parents into having their children undergo the process. As of 2008, between 2-8% of children with autism had had the therapy.

Rationale for doubting link

Various lines of evidence undermine a proposed link between thiomersal and autism. For example, although advocates of a thiomersal-autism link consider autism a form of "mercury poisoning," the typical symptoms of mercury toxicity are significantly different from symptoms seen in autism. Likewise, the neuroanatomic and histopathologic features of the brains of patients who have mercury poisoning, both with methylmercury as well as ethylmercury, have significant differences from the brains of people with autism. Previous episodes of widespread mercury toxicity in a population such as in Minamata Bay, Japan would also be expected to lead to documentation of a significant rise in autism or autism-like behavior in children should autism be caused by mercury poisoning. However, research on several episodes of acute and chronic mercury poisoning have not documented any such rise in autism like behavior. Although some parents cite an association between the timing of onset of autistic symptoms with the timing of vaccinations as evidence of an environmental cause such as thiomersal, this line of reasoning can be misleading. Associations such as these do not establish causation as the two occurring together may be only coincidental in nature. Also, genetic disorders that have no environmental triggers such as Rett syndrome and Huntington's disease nevertheless have specific ages when they begin to show symptoms, suggesting specific ages of onset of symptoms does not necessarily require an environmental cause.

Although the concern for a thiomersal-autism link was originally derived from indirect evidence based on the known potent neurotoxic effects of methylmercury, recent studies show these feared effects were likely overestimated. Ethylmercury, such as in thiomersal, clears much faster from the body after administration than methylmercury, suggesting total mercury exposure over time is much less with ethylmercury. Currently used methods of estimating brain deposition of mercury likely overestimates the amounts deposited due to ethylmercury, and ethylmercury also decomposes quicker in the brain than methylmercury, suggesting a lower risk of brain damage. These findings show that the assumptions that originally led to concern about the toxicity of ethylmercury, which were based on direct comparison to methylmercury, were flawed.

Thiomersal controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Significant parts bolded.

OK, I misspelled it when I checked.

THANKS! I DID say they have ways to hide it. I TRIED to check for mercury AND this preservative, but spelled the preservative wrong. THANKS!

BTW Mercury does NOT cause autism. I never said it did. But it CAN hurt in other ways, and that IS an accepted fact. They even say things like that pregnant women should avoid eating most tuna, etc... because it can be high in mercury.

BESIDES, any autism I might have, or develop, I already had earlier. And women are more likely to pass on such a debilitation, from things like mercury, since the ovums develop for such a LONG time and the child is developing in their body for nine months. SPERM, by contrast, only develop for maybe a week or so and, if they are damaged past a certain point, become VERY unlikely to produce ANY child.

BTW for whatever reason, methalated molecules are better metabolized, and the effect can be amplified, etc... That is nothing new. STILL, I just don't trust mercury. I never have.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

OK, I misspelled it when I checked.

THANKS! I DID say they have ways to hide it. I TRIED to check for mercury AND this preservative, but spelled the preservative wrong. THANKS!

BTW Mercury does NOT cause autism. I never said it did. But it CAN hurt in other ways, and that IS an accepted fact. They even say things like that pregnant women should avoid eating most tuna, etc... because it can be high in mercury.

BESIDES, any autism I might have, or develop, I already had earlier. And women are more likely to pass on such a debilitation, from things like mercury, since the ovums develop for such a LONG time and the child is developing in their body for nine months. SPERM, by contrast, only develop for maybe a week or so and, if they are damaged past a certain point, become VERY unlikely to produce ANY child.

Steve

Everybody knows the dangers of mercury poisoning. See again the differences between Ethylmercury and methylmercury and the fact that when Ethylmercury was used routinely in vaccines, it was in amounts that would not cause toxicity.

There's also a new study available on eating fish when pregnant.

Benefits of Eating Fish During Pregnancy May Outweigh Mercury Risk for Fetus : LIFE : Tech Times

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DJL 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Sal,
...
You know all of that already, though. You just don't care how many people end up dying to protect your fantasies.
Paul

The voice of sweet reason is sweet, indeed.
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- DJL 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by DJL
  
  The voice of sweet reason is sweet, indeed.
  
  Unfortunately, the voice of the crackpot is strident, LOUD, and operated by a brain that is immune (due to some inexpugnable inoculation) to facts and logic.
  
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  --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Elective Affinities (1809)
  
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Insano

11 years ago

I will not have anything to add to what Paul said... very well put, my hat is off...

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HeySal

11 years ago

Hey Paul - Zen Redneck.

Okay - having dealt with the mining industry for a number of years now, and having taken at least introductory elemental science, I wondered if my mind had slipped when you said that mercury in vaccines is harmless.

As I thought - mercury is an element and there is no harmless form:

Home Page Pay particular attention to section 169

I believe what you were thinking of is thermasol, which is not elemental. I've heard both sides of the debate on whether this active ingredient in Anti-Freeze is actually poisonous when isolated on its own. Frankly, I can't testify either way on this one. The mercury, though - is poisonous no matter what form it is in - and it's poisonous at much lower levels than is put in vaccines.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I wondered if my mind had slipped when you said that mercury in vaccines is harmless.

As I thought - mercury is an element and there is no harmless form:

I believe what you were thinking of is thermasol, which is not elemental.

thiomersal is an ethylmercury-based preservative that was removed from vaccines with a couple of exceptions like flu and tetanus vaccines in 2001. The flu and tetanus vaccines contain trace amounts of the ethylmercury-based preservative which clears from the body a lot faster than methylmercury.

In addition to it just not being there any longer for quite a few years now, it never did cause autism to start with.

For example, although advocates of a thiomersal-autism link consider autism a form of "mercury poisoning," the typical symptoms of mercury toxicity are significantly different from symptoms seen in autism. Likewise, the neuroanatomic and histopathologic features of the brains of patients who have mercury poisoning, both with methylmercury as well as ethylmercury, have significant differences from the brains of people with autism.

Without a preservative in vaccines that are bottled for multiple-dosing, the danger of them growing bacteria and killing people due to injecting staph infection directly into the bloodstreams of patients is high.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

thiomersal is an ethylmercury-based preservative that was removed from vaccines with a couple of exceptions like flu and tetanus vaccines in 2001. The flu and tetanus vaccines contain trace amounts of the ethylmercury-based preservative which clears from the body a lot faster than methylmercury.

In addition to it just not being there any longer for quite a few years now, it never did cause autism to start with.

Without a preservative in vaccines that are bottled for multiple-dosing, the danger of them growing bacteria and killing people due to injecting staph infection directly into the bloodstreams of patients is high.

Okay. Wasn't aware that thiomersal was mercury based. Mercury based, though - is still mercury, whether it clears or is bio-accumulative. What is the problem is if the amount is deadly. This isn't being ingested and expelled it is being injected. If a toxic amount can reach the brain, it can cause irreparable damage whether it hangs or not.

I don't have access now to see if it is true it's not in there still or not. I believe aluminum is. Last time I had pkg access was less than a year ago and I looked for side effects - they included autism. What is still in them that can have that effect? If I get access to another pkg, I'll check and see what is true about the ingredients. I don't take anyone's word for it. They lie about autism being a side effect, yet that is common knowledge in some countries and is on the pkg, and has been sued over in other countries. Yet people insist it's a lie even though that much still is on pkg warnings. I will have to see the pkg to decide what is true and what is not true about present ingredients. I don't swallow propaganda. Too many people die of that, and I'd like to remain not one of them.

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Okay. Wasn't aware that thiomersal was mercury based. Mercury based, though - is still mercury, whether it clears or is bio-accumulative. What is the problem is if the amount is deadly. This isn't being ingested and expelled it is being injected. If a toxic amount can reach the brain, it can cause irreparable damage whether it hangs or not.

I don't have access now to see if it is true it's not in there still or not. I believe aluminum is. Last time I had pkg access was less than a year ago and I looked for side effects - they included autism. What is still in them that can have that effect? If I get access to another pkg, I'll check and see what is true about the ingredients. I don't take anyone's word for it. They lie about autism being a side effect, yet that is common knowledge in some countries and is on the pkg, and has been sued over in other countries. Yet people insist it's a lie even though that much still is on pkg warnings. I will have to see the pkg to decide what is true and what is not true about present ingredients. I don't swallow propaganda. Too many people die of that, and I'd like to remain not one of them.

American Academy of Paediatrics has this to say.......

Overwhelmingly, the evidence collected over the past 15 years has failed to yield any evidence of significant harm, including serious neurodevelopmental disorders, from use of thimerosal in vaccines.

Heres a link to an authority governing body... http://www.autismoava.orgwww.autismo....2012-1760.pdf

They also had this to say, I kinda thought it was relevant to the whole topic... Vaccines remain one of the most effective ways to prevent infectious disease and deaths globally.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

You can't get the flu If you've had a flu shot [stirs pot].

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Claude Whitacre 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

You can't get the flu If you've had a flu shot [stirs pot].

And you won't mind having the flu, if you smoke pot (Stirs the shot).
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butters 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

You can't get the flu If you've had a flu shot [stirs pot].

Love the pot stirring unfortunately viruses rapidly mutate so there obviously needs to be future developments etc to keep up with the pace of viral mutations.
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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

You can't get the flu If you've had a flu shot [stirs pot].

ACTUALLY, you CAN! It happens ALL THE TIME! Ask any honest doctor and they WILL tell you! Flu shots are NOT to vaccinate you against THE FLU! There is NO "THE FLU"! They are to vaccinate you against 3 or 4 STRAINS of FLU that MIGHT be called "THE FLU". And THAT is why they ALWAYS come up with NEW "FLU" shots, and say ALL should get them!

Steve
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HeySal

11 years ago

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yukon Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

LOl, artistic.
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HeySal

11 years ago

Just did some research - thermosal is being phased out - especially in vaccines given to babies. That's good news to me. According to all the research, the connection between autism and thermasol was not admitted - but not ruled out. The vac that I looked at packaging was a flu vaccine. Anyhow......

I remain against vacs in all but a few exceptions. Measles? Nah - let the kid build an immune system. Small pox, yeah, I'd allow that one if they could guarantee no aluminum and thermasol, but the kid would have to be at least a few years old before I'd allow it.

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BigFrank Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Measles? Nah - let the kid build an immune system.

So what if there are other factors? Too bad!

And the Humanitarian of the Year Award goes to . . . . . . .

I'm just sayin' . . . . . . . . . and we all know what that means.

Night, all. - Frank
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- Kay King 11 years ago
  
  According to all the research, the connection between autism and thermasol was not admitted - but not ruled out.
  
  No - that's not what all the research says. It's what all the blogs about anti-vaccs claim. And that's the problem. New parents still find those frightening claims and believe them - and the anti-vacc people keep spreading those claims because without the danger and conspiracy...they'd have no case at all, or is it no "cause" at all?
  
  Vaccines and autism: Separating fact from fiction | BabyCenter
  
  Is The CDC Hiding Data About Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism? - Forbes
  
  CDC - Thimerosal - Vaccine Safety
  
  Autism and Vaccines | Research, Funding, Support | Autism Science Foundation
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Just did some research - thermosal is being phased out -

I'd say your research is bit out of date. It was eliminated from most vaccines in 2001 and reduced to trace amounts in the few vaccines that have it.

The reason they eliminated it was because of all the anti-vaxxers pissing and moaning about a correlation between vaccine and autism that simply does not exist and never did. That correlation, again, was based on a scandalous fraudulent report by Wakefield that he did for profit.

They simply use a different preservative now because they felt that it wouldn't matter either way to use what they were using or to use another preservative. But did that quiet the anti-vaxxers? Of course not.

The government and voters will decide what is in the best interests of the public in the case of mandatory vaccines because you simply cannot leave it to a bunch of whackos who care little to nothing about other people's lives that they endanger.

"There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country (many of whom are children) who can't be vaccinated. They can't be vaccinated because they're getting chemotherapy for their cancer, or they can't be vaccinated because they're getting immunosuppressive therapy for their rheumatologic diseases or their transplants. They depend on those around them to be vaccinated because 'if they're living among a population that is relatively unvaccinated, they're the ones who are most likely to get a vaccine-preventable disease, and are most likely to suffer with that disease."

Here in the east, all of the childhood vaccinations were mandatory and still are. No vaccinations, no school. Period.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Measles? Nah - let the kid build an immune system.

Your facts about measles is alarmingly incorrect also.

Key facts

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally - about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services - up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Your facts about measles is alarmingly incorrect also.

Then WHY did they have

ARTIES where a diseased kid(with GERMAN measles) would be put together with many healthy ones so they would get the disease at an age where it was safe?

Measles and German Measles

BTW Wikipedia is wrong here. It PREDATES all this garbage, but....

Pox party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Then WHY did they have

ARTIES where a diseased kid(with GERMAN measles) would be put together with many healthy ones so they would get the disease at an age where it was safe?

Measles and German Measles

BTW Wikipedia is wrong here. It PREDATES all this garbage, but....

Pox party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Steve

Why? Because some people are pretty damned stupid and misinformed.

Complications

Measles can be a serious in all age groups. However, children younger than 5 years of age and adults older than 20 years of age are more likely to suffer from measles complications.
Common Complications

Common measles complications include ear infections and diarrhea.

Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.
Diarrhea is reported in less than one out of 10 people with measles.

Severe Complications

Some people may suffer from severe complications, such as pneumonia (infection of the lungs) and encephalitis (swelling of the brain). They may need to be hospitalized and could die.

As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.

Measles may cause pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Suzanne,

Your facts about measles is alarmingly incorrect also.

Sal. Does. Not. Care.

If anyone were to suggest dogs get this kind of cavalierly neglectful treatment, she'd be the first in line to want to euthanize the one promoting it. And I respect that. But when it's human kids, she just doesn't give a rat's hairy tail, as long as her illusions are preserved.

Paul

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Suzanne,Sal. Does. Not. Care.

If anyone were to suggest dogs get this kind of cavalierly neglectful treatment, she'd be the first in line to want to euthanize the one promoting it. And I respect that. But when it's human kids, she just doesn't give a rat's hairy tail, as long as her illusions are preserved.

Paul

I know she doesn't. At all. But she continues to spout off about the mercury and autism when the mercury was removed a long time ago and autism continues on without it. The facts are all there for anyone who wants to look at either side of the argument and yet, she just now says she just did some research and oh ... they're phasing out the mercury... yeah, like 14 years ago.

So, I just like to present a few facts in the thread with full knowledge that those with deeply held anti-vaxxer beliefs will not read or consider them. Pointless, I know.

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Suzanne,

Pointless, I know.

Not if you present them for the benefit of the folks who haven't yet made up their minds. Trying to "convince" Sal, though, is as useful as me arguing with my hat about the rain.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Lee,
  
  Nice to see you back among the posting, sir!
  
  Paul brought up a very strong point earlier. He mentioned others suffering from certain conditions can not be vaccinated and live in constant fear due to this.
  
  The woman I was thinking of lives in a town in New York where a college has reported a measles case (confirmed) as a result of the Disney situation.
  
  The fear she feels is very specific, very real, and very preventable. And if this young lady gets hurt because of the reckless preaching of these pseudoscience nutballs, I can see myself becoming one of their worst nightmares.
  
  Paul
  
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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If anyone were to suggest dogs get this kind of cavalierly neglectful treatment, she'd be the first in line to want to euthanize the one promoting it. And I respect that. But when it's human kids, she just doesn't give a rat's hairy tail, as long as her illusions are preserved.

Paul

Paul,
It's pretty much well established in these parts that Sal and a few other OT regulars here would choose their dogs over our children on a train track any day of the week or make that 365 days out the year without even blinking LOL

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Insano

11 years ago

Yup it is more lucrative to treat a disease than to prevent one...

And the by far most disturbing one:

Which means outthere are nurses who are possibly beeing infected with preventable diseases. So where is the security for my child?

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Insano

Yup it is more lucrative to treat a disease than to prevent one...

And the by far most disturbing one:

Which means outthere are nurses who are possibly beeing infected with preventable diseases. So where is the security for my child?

Well, I believe I have said it here before, but I will again. I went into the hospital, and had a HUGE part of my body RIPPED APART about 11 years ago! OK, OK, I know you probably think I am making this up! Let me describe it for you!

1. They cut a slit in my upper chest, and took out at least one of my pectoralis Minora muscles! YEP, TO THIS day, that muscle is MISSING!
2. They put my whole body in ice, and gave me a heart bypass, through the slit I just described. This operation is known as a SAXCAB. You can look it up, but that was just the FIRST part!
3. They slit my chest in half, and took out a chunk of my rib cage.
4. They removed my heart, cut out the aortic valve, and removed a large length of the aortic stem.
5. They then replaced the valve and stem with an artificial device, put my rib cage back together with a few wire ties, sealed me back up, etc.....

Anyway, I wanted to give you anidea about how INVASIVE this was! TWO large slits held together by "catgut", a sutured connection to the largest blood vessel in the ENTIRE BODY! A sutured connection onto one of the most stressed parts of the heart! And a rib cage held together with THREE wire ties! You can actually see them on an xray!!!!!

Anyway, the hospital has the absolute *******NERVE******* to try to "teach" you how to cough to keep pnuemonia from becoming a full blown case! Keep in mind, that you are NOT coughing to keep from getting pnuemonia, because it could rip you apart. You are doing it so THEY can simply claim that you are OK because you didn't die, and they supposedly "tried their best". A new doctor had the AUDACITY at some point to proclaim me as having a defect because he noticed my chest was out of sorts, and I just about hit the roof. Don't blame me, my genetics, etc... NOPE, the doctors simply slipped up. Luckily, at least at my current weight, it isn't THAT obvious, but STILL. I worked really hard, just to diminish the scars from the incisions, and staples.

As for me, I tried to stay away from them as best I could because I was trying to do what THEY are supposed to do! Their job is NOT to get me better from diseases they present. It is to prevent my getting new diseases, so I can heal from what I went in there with.

Anyway, any nurse/doctor/worker should go in there with the knowledge that they HAVE to get innoculated, etc... Look at the story of Joseph Lister! He found that people were dying like flies! Being pregnant was practically a DEATH SENTENCE! At one point about 30% of pregnancies ended in the DEATH of the mother! HE was branded as a lunatic, even though he was found to be right, because he proposed that the doctors autopsying dead bodies got some pathogen that they spread to the mothers when they took care of the delivery.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Their job is NOT to get me better from diseases they present. It is to prevent my getting new diseases, so I can heal from what I went in there with.
Steve

It sucks you had a bad experience, it really does but I want to pick up on this comment. What a load of crap... I talk to doctors, nurses, pathologists, drugs representatives etc... week in week out, they are not their to only prevent new diseases, they are their to cure (if possible) current diseases. In some cases precautionary steps are taken in advance due to a high susceptibility of developing a new disease. No doctor I have known is only going to treat you for possible future diseases and not your current ones.

Actually every doctor / pathologist etc holds patient safety, ethical practices, transparency of information and patient wellbeing at the core of their careers.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

It sucks you had a bad experience, it really does but I want to pick up on this comment. What a load of crap... I talk to doctors, nurses, pathologists, drugs representatives etc... week in week out, they are not their to only prevent new diseases, they are their to cure (if possible) current diseases. In some cases precautionary steps are taken in advance due to a high susceptibility of developing a new disease. No doctor I have known is only going to treat you for possible future diseases and not your current ones.

Actually every doctor / pathologist etc holds patient safety, ethical practices, transparency of information and patient wellbeing at the core of their careers.

HEY, I told you the TRUTH!!!!!!! My aorta was going to explode, so the only treatment was replacing most of the part that was at risk. That was IT! After that, the ONLY reason I was there was for short term care, and RECOVERY!!!!!! I mean WHAT ELSE could they do? If you know some mysterious spell or something, LET US KNOW! I went through this ordeal, and doctors tell me how lucky I am to have survived.

Lucille ball? Here is what wikipedia said: On April 26, 1989, Ball died of an abdominal aortic dissection at age 77.[10]

Georg C scott? Here is what wikipedia said: He died on September 22, 1999, aged 71, of a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm.

How about John ritter? Age 54, BTW Ritter died from an aortic dissection on September 11, 2003. His death occurred shortly after the production of an episode for the second season of 8 Simple Rules.

SO, as you can see, this may be relatively rare, but I just rattled off 3 famous people that DIED from it! BTW John Ritter died IN THE ER waiting to be looked at while the hospital pushed him closer to death! They moved SLOWLY and I guess john was a nice guy, and wanted others cared ahead of him. Meanwhile, they treated him like he had a heart attack and did everything WRONG!

But hospitals are SEPTIC! You can see the careless way many nurses do things! They put me through that ordeal because of what MIGHT happen and it well could have. But the cure had a good chance of creating MORE problems!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

HEY, I told you the TRUTH!!!!!!! My aorta was going to explode, so the only treatment was replacing most of the part that was at risk. That was IT! After that, the ONLY reason I was there was for short term care, and RECOVERY!!!!!! I mean WHAT ELSE could they do? If you know some mysterious spell or something, LET US KNOW! I went through this ordeal, and doctors tell me how lucky I am to have survived.
......
But hospitals are SEPTIC! You can see the careless way many nurses do things! They put me through that ordeal because of what MIGHT happen and it well could have. But the cure had a good chance of creating MORE problems!

Steve

It sounds to me like they saved your life through an extraordinary operation.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It sounds to me like they saved your life through an extraordinary operation.

Some doctors did, but I didn't want to live just to be tortured and left deformed.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Some doctors did, but I didn't want to live just to be tortured and left deformed.

Steve

Did you tell them that when you arrived at the hospital? If I didn't want to live, I wouldn't go to a hospital. They're in the business of saving lives when they can.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Just to keep the argument going.
CDC Caught Hiding Data Showing Mercury in Vaccines Linked to Autism
Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes: Possible Role of Fenton Chemistry in the Oxidation and Breakage of mtDNA
Exposure to Mercury and Aluminum in Early Life: Developmental Vulne... - PubMed - NCBI

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Just to keep the argument going.
CDC Caught Hiding Data Showing Mercury in Vaccines Linked to Autism
Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes: Possible Role of Fenton Chemistry in the Oxidation and Breakage of mtDNA
Exposure to Mercury and Aluminum in Early Life: Developmental Vulne... - PubMed - NCBI

Quick Key:

ROS = Reactive oxygen species
EM = Ethylmercury

The first site, not quite sure of the validity of it to be honest but I have only looked at the middle one.

The last one I had a quick look at but there are so many numbers (dosages and measurement it would take more time

.

Anyways I had a quick look at the middle one, from what I can tell they have essentially cultured astrocyte cells in the lab. The studies shows that EM essentially causes an increase in ROS species which leads to reactions with iron within the cells causing toxicity. This is kinda already known. The mitochondria is actually known as the main site for iron utilisation and ROS production. Since this is done in a cell culture and not an actual patient it doesn't quite give the whole story. Astrocytes are known to develop a protective phenotype against iron oxidative stress. So essentially while the study shows that EM causes increase in oxidative stress, it doesn't consider what it would be like in an actual patient.

Here is a study which essentially takes astrocytes which have the protective phenotype expressed and subjected them to iron oxidative stress.

JNI | Full text | Astrocytes acquire resistance to iron-dependent oxidative stress upon proinflammatory activation

It shows that the mitochondria is able to counteract the ROS production.

Here is another article which talks about anti-oxidants and how they reduce the stress caused by ROS.

http://downloads.hindawi.com/journal...012/428010.pdf

Its actually quite a good article on how ROS effects the brain and how it is also countered.

After doing a bit of research into it this is essentially what this whole EM argument is all about. It generates reactive oxygen species which can have a detrimental impact on the brain and other bodily functions. Heres the thing, ROS are being generated through out the body constantly, other diseases cause them to. The body had many mechanisms in place to prevent them though, while they are a threat if the bodies natural defences against them get altered.

This is my preliminary thoughts on it from a tiny bit of research I guess.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Quick Key:

ROS = Reactive oxygen species
EM = Ethylmercury

The first site, not quite sure of the validity of it to be honest but I have only looked at the middle one.

The last one I had a quick look at but there are so many numbers (dosages and measurement it would take more time

.

Anyways I had a quick look at the middle one, from what I can tell they have essentially cultured astrocyte cells in the lab. The studies shows that EM essentially causes an increase in ROS species which leads to reactions with iron within the cells causing toxicity. This is kinda already known. The mitochondria is actually known as the main site for iron utilisation and ROS production. Since this is done in a cell culture and not an actual patient it doesn't quite give the whole story. Astrocytes are known to develop a protective phenotype against iron oxidative stress. So essentially while the study shows that EM causes increase in oxidative stress, it doesn't consider what it would be like in an actual patient.

Here is a study which essentially takes astrocytes which have the protective phenotype expressed and subjected them to iron oxidative stress.

JNI | Full text | Astrocytes acquire resistance to iron-dependent oxidative stress upon proinflammatory activation

It shows that the mitochondria is able to counteract the ROS production.

Here is another article which talks about anti-oxidants and how they reduce the stress caused by ROS.

http://downloads.hindawi.com/journal...012/428010.pdf

Its actually quite a good article on how ROS effects the brain and how it is also countered.

After doing a bit of research into it this is essentially what this whole EM argument is all about. It generates reactive oxygen species which can have a detrimental impact on the brain and other bodily functions. Heres the thing, ROS are being generated through out the body constantly, other diseases cause them to. The body had many mechanisms in place to prevent them though, while they are a threat if the bodies natural defences against them get altered.

This is my preliminary thoughts on it from a tiny bit of research I guess.

Here's the thing many of these vaccines are given to infants before or around when they are 12 months old. Heck the Hepatitis B vaccine is given at birth. How many of the mechanisms are fully functional at that age?

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's the thing many of these vaccines are given to infants before or around when they are 12 months old. Heck the Hepatitis B vaccine is given at birth. How many of the mechanisms are fully functional at that age?

Sure, the mother and baby are linked so first you will get anti oxidants through dietry components such as: Vitasmin c and e, I'm sure there are more. They also have enzymatic anti-oxidants, such as: Superoxide dismutase, thioredoxin, thioredoxin reductase, and glutathione. The fetus is subjected to fetal distress (nothing to do with vaccinations) which produces oxidative stress. The fetus is able to combat them effects through the above. That doesn't mean that oxidative stress can not occur but it does mean that there are thousands of causes of oxidative stress which normal pregnancy counteracts. Bare in mind my knowledge on this is limited and needs further research. But I can say this, there are much more common causes of oxidative stress, such as bacterial and viral infections.

To bring it back to vaccines, no study has proved autism etc... From EM. Sure more studies can be done but there have been studies spanning 15 years which show no links.

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ThomM

11 years ago

To bring it back to vaccines, no study has proved autism etc... From EM. Sure more studies can be done but there have been studies spanning 15 years which show no links.

You see I'm somewhat of a skeptic, I mean there are so called studies going back over 20 years that claim GMO's are save to eat and safe to the environment. Except now there are independent studies that are proving all those other studies wrong. Which brings to another question. What's the combined effects of vaccines and gmo laced formulas on infants. How does an active Bacillus thuringiensis toxin in formula react with a vaccine?
I don't have a problem with most vaccines for the most part. Heck I got all of mine as a kid and I'm only a little bit crazier then most. But I do think more research needs to be done under real world conditions.

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

You see I'm somewhat of a skeptic, I mean there are so called studies going back over 20 years that claim GMO's are save to eat and safe to the environment. Except now there are independent studies that are proving all those other studies wrong. Which brings to another question. What's the combined effects of vaccines and gmo laced formulas on infants. How does an active Bacillus thuringiensis toxin in formula react with a vaccine?
I don't have a problem with most vaccines for the most part. Heck I got all of mine as a kid and I'm only a little bit crazier then most. But I do think more research needs to be done under real world conditions.

Here's the problem, to prove a link (if there is any) the finances would be huge, we are talking 10s of millions (if not massively more). Thousands of factors would have to be considered ranging from genetics, epidemiology, diet, parental disorders, traumas, even small things like blood type. The list will go on and on to prove a conclusive link between the two and then you still won't proove because so many things can lead to "x".

To answer your question, I got no idea, I doubt a study has ever been done looking at them two effects together. I'm sure you could draw theoretical conclusions looking at both individually.

The thing is, on the subject of vaccinations there has been large, independent studies carried out by universities, hospitals etc all around the world. This isn't just a US problem, it's international so scientists are not known to go with the trends of politics. This is a subject to big that if there was some conspiracy, real, influential scientists would speak out. None are speaking out.

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discrat 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Heck the Hepatitis B vaccine is given at birth.

Thom you have been around Seasoned too much
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- ThomM 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Thom you have been around Seasoned too much
  
  That information is from the CDC website.
  CDC - Vaccines - Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules
  
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  discrat 11 years ago
  
  Thom, what I said must have gone over your head, heck I don't know maybe I am sounding too much like Seasoned myself. Heck I hope not
  
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  Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Thom, what I said must have gone over your head, heck I don't know maybe I am sounding too much like Seasoned myself. Heck I hope not
  
  Maybe it's you who missed something . . . Steve always capitalizes HECK, and Thom didn't.
  
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  Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.
  
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  ThomM 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Thom, what I said must have gone over your head, heck I don't know maybe I am sounding too much like Seasoned myself. Heck I hope not
  
  Keep in mind "paying attention" isn't one of my strong points
  
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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Did you tell them that when you arrived at the hospital? If I didn't want to live, I wouldn't go to a hospital. They're in the business of saving lives when they can.

What does spreading disease have to do with saving life? I actually had NO idea that they would try to put me through such an ordeal. I once went to a place to get my break checked and turned. DANG IT, I never bothered to tell them I didn't want to lose my life on the freeway due to their not screwing the breaks on properly! I almost DID lose my life on the freeway when the breaks fell apart! That was within maybe 2 hours of getting the car back. It is a GOOD thing that I stop slowly, and am always monitoring such things.

I mentioned something here, a few years ago, that could be done to save THOUSANDS in the medical industry every patient year. OK, OK, I forgot one little thing. It could ALSO save thousands of lives, and improve the quality of life.

I went out to get dinner, and the one and only crown I have exploded. So here I am with a vulnerability brought on by that operation, one that they new was a potential for HUNDREDS of years, and has affected ME for over a DECADE, and the fact that they have prescriptions like they do has put me in a position where that operation could be for nothing.

SO, as for my glass being half full? I SETTLE! I set my goals LOWER, and the glass is then FULL! But if they give me a cheap thin glass with bubbles in theglass(like with the latest episode), or they drill a hole in the glass, like earlier, I complain because the glass can never even remain half full.

And I LOVE how I talk about nurses that are supposed to CARE for you, and you try to distract and distort the argument by bringing in doctors that are supposed to simply start you off.

If you take your care in to get a tire replaced(DOCTOR), and then later have a VALET park it(NURSE) and the VALET then decides to take the car on a joy ride, and steals the tire, do you blame the guys that replaced the tire? NOPE! Was the removal of the tire part of the valets job? NOPE!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

What does spreading disease have to do with saving life? I actually had NO idea that they would try to put me through such an ordeal. I once went to a place to get my break checked and turned. DANG IT, I never bothered to tell them I didn't want to lose my life on the freeway due to their not screwing the breaks on properly! I almost DID lose my life on the freeway when the breaks fell apart! That was within maybe 2 hours of getting the car back. It is a GOOD thing that I stop slowly, and am always monitoring such things.

I mentioned something here, a few years ago, that could be done to save THOUSANDS in the medical industry every patient year. OK, OK, I forgot one little thing. It could ALSO save thousands of lives, and improve the quality of life.

I went out to get dinner, and the one and only crown I have exploded. So here I am with a vulnerability brought on by that operation, one that they new was a potential for HUNDREDS of years, and has affected ME for over a DECADE, and the fact that they have prescriptions like they do has put me in a position where that operation could be for nothing.

SO, as for my glass being half full? I SETTLE! I set my goals LOWER, and the glass is then FULL! But if they give me a cheap thin glass with bubbles in theglass(like with the latest episode), or they drill a hole in the glass, like earlier, I complain because the glass can never even remain half full.

And I LOVE how I talk about nurses that are supposed to CARE for you, and you try to distract and distort the argument by bringing in doctors that are supposed to simply start you off.

If you take your care in to get a tire replaced(DOCTOR), and then later have a VALET park it(NURSE) and the VALET then decides to take the car on a joy ride, and steals the tire, do you blame the guys that replaced the tire? NOPE! Was the removal of the tire part of the valets job? NOPE!

Steve

Well, that was informative classic Steve as usual. Now we know all about tires and brakes and stuff.

Did you or did you not have a life threatening condition (like an aorta that was going to explode or something) and did the doctors or did they not perform an operation that was necessary if the goal was to save your life?

Simple question. Simple answer.

People get sick... have parts of their bodies fail. Did the doctors cause that condition to be present? Did they fix it? So, you're a bit uncomfortable. It sounds like dead was the alternative.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well, that was informative classic Steve as usual. Now we know all about tires and brakes and stuff.

Did you or did you not have a life threatening condition (like an aorta that was going to explode or something) and did the doctors or did they not perform an operation that was necessary if the goal was to save your life?

Simple question. Simple answer.

As I said, YES! Did the doctors care for me? NO! Did the nurses operate? NO!

People get sick... have parts of their bodies fail. Did the doctors cause that condition to be present? Did they fix it? So, you're a bit uncomfortable. It sounds like dead was the alternative.

Did they cause it to be present? OF COURSE NOT! Did they fix it? Not really! I thought they had, more than they did, but they didn't. They MITIGATED it! So my predicted life span went from about 5 days, to less definite. The prognosis of outcome went from certain immediate death to maybe a chance at ONE more operation.

As for saving my life? HECK, they could have put poisoned people on life support and kept their hearts beating, but I don't think many would overlook a person causing the poisoning in such a case.

ALL I wanted was a hospital that ACTED like a hospital! NOT MUCH TO ASK! If someone thinks it is, then why don't we shut all of them down!?!?!?

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

As I said, YES! Did the doctors care for me? NO! Did the nurses operate? NO!

Did they cause it to be present? OF COURSE NOT! Did they fix it? Not really! I thought they had, more than they did, but they didn't. They MITIGATED it! So my predicted life span went from about 5 days, to less definite. The prognosis of outcome went from certain immediate death to maybe a chance at ONE more operation.

As for saving my life? HECK, they could have put poisoned people on life support and kept their hearts beating, but I don't think many would overlook a person causing the poisoning in such a case.

ALL I wanted was a hospital that ACTED like a hospital! NOT MUCH TO ASK! If someone thinks it is, then why don't we shut all of them down!?!?!?

Steve

It kinda sounds you went from certain death to being able to rant about it on a forum... I'd say they did a pretty good job considering you had 5 days to live.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

It kinda sounds you went from certain death to being able to rant about it on a forum... I'd say they did a pretty good job considering you had 5 days to live.

AGAIN, NOT who we are talking about! Had a succumbed to what they seemed to have wanted, I could have died a very painful death.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

AGAIN, NOT who we are talking about! Had a succumbed to what they seemed to have wanted, I could have died a very painful death.

Steve

Actually, Steve, no one knows what you're talking about. You rant about a hospital and doctors saving your life when most people would be grateful.

It was an extraordinary operation and probably not one that was easy to do... certainly not routine at all.

You said the hospital should ACT like a hospital. What do hospitals act like? They gave you an operation that saved your life. That's what I expect hospitals to act like.

You said you wanted them to CARE for you. In what way? Touchy feely I love Steve way or care for you medically, as in save your life and provide medical services?

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You said you wanted them to CARE for you. In what way? Touchy feely I love Steve way or care for you medically, as in save your life and provide medical services?

As I said, there was NOTHING the nurses could do to help! CARE? SIMPLE! STAY AWAY! Just get me things I needed when I needed them and otherwise STAY AWAY! NO TOUCH! NO FEEL! NADA!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

As I said, there was NOTHING the nurses could do to help! CARE? SIMPLE! STAY AWAY! Just get me things I needed when I needed them and otherwise STAY AWAY! NO TOUCH! NO FEEL! NADA!

Steve

The nurses are there to provide daily care and follow doctor's instructions only ... not yours... and their primary role is not just to play fetch when you decide you want something. Sorry ... you don't get to determine hospital protocol. I'll bet they were glad when you were discharged though.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The nurses are there to provide daily care and follow doctor's instructions only ... not yours... and their primary role is not just to play fetch when you decide you want something. Sorry ... you don't get to determine hospital protocol. I'll bet they were glad when you were discharged though.

Well, the doctors didn't give ANY directions! So I am supposed to STARVE, huh? I mean SERIOUSLY, that is about all I wanted! ACTUALLY, they wanted to keep me longer! I FOUGHT to get out! SERIOUSLY, even 30 minutes before my discharge it was like "ONLY, IF....". So NOPE, they weren't quick to get me out of there.

Steve

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Kay King 11 years ago

This is a moment of interesting (I thought) commentary on the subject of this thread.

Watched an interview today where a woman talked about WHY she did not vaccinate her child when doctors recommended it - but why she is NOW having him vaccinated (at age 7-8).

She rmabled on with excuses for several minutes about how she was afraid of what she heard - she thought the doctor was pushy about vaccinations - she thought her son would be upset - she was afraid ...this that and the other. She's vaccinating him now because she's afraid 'someone' will give him measles.

My daughter-in-law looked at me and said "did you notice that entire speech was about HER and not about her child?" Yep, sure did.
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Cali16

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, the doctors didn't give ANY directions!

Yes, they did. They wrote them in your patient chart and it was the nurses' job to follow them. That's how it generally works. It seems you have unrealistic expectations of hospitals, doctors, and nurses.

I'm with Suzanne; baffled as to why you seem so angry at doctors and nurses who clearly saved your life. The outcome may not have been ideal (based on your anger at what happened), but that's often the case due to multiple factors. Not every medical problem can be fixed perfectly, but most people consider saving the life of someone who's on the brink of death a good thing.

Would you have preferred they'd just let you die?

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Yes, they did. They wrote them in your patient chart and it was the nurses' job to follow them. That's how it generally works. It seems you have unrealistic expectations of hospitals, doctors, and nurses.

And 'life' in general!

I'm with Suzanne; baffled as to why you seem so angry at doctors and nurses who clearly saved your life. The outcome may not have been ideal (based on your anger at what happened), but that's often the case due to multiple factors. Not every medical problem can be fixed perfectly, but most people consider saving the life of someone who's on the brink of death a good thing.

Easy - anger is the only emotion on tap.

Would you have preferred they'd just let you die?

Are you asking me? lol

Cheers. - Frank

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Yes, they did. They wrote them in your patient chart and it was the nurses' job to follow them. That's how it generally works. It seems you have unrealistic expectations of hospitals, doctors, and nurses.

I'm with Suzanne; baffled as to why you seem so angry at doctors and nurses who clearly saved your life. The outcome may not have been ideal (based on your anger at what happened), but that's often the case due to multiple factors. Not every medical problem can be fixed perfectly, but most people consider saving the life of someone who's on the brink of death a good thing.

Would you have preferred they'd just let you die?

AW, SO smart and yet you keep ignoring the KEY POINTS!!!!!!!! ONE, I did NOT say anything against the doctors here! TWO, you are claiming that the doctors TOLD the nurses to infect me, and try to get me to pull all my stitches, on the pretense that I may get infected! Sometimes I wish I told them I had something like mumps or whatever! THEN when they take precautions to protect THEMSELVES, they would be inadvertently doing what I would want.

And NO, they did NOT save my life! They ENDANGERED it! LATER, nurses denied me some welcome ice cream, but gave me a diet heavy in vitamin K. That is the ONE thing I am not supposed to ingest so much. The nurses earlier had me in a class that primarily taught that ONE fact! Vitamin K is called Vitamin K because coagulation was spelled Koagulation, in Germany. And Warfarin works AGAINST that effect! It is, to people in my position, LITERALLY like SUGAR is to a diabetic! AND, LIKE a diabetic, I would have to somehow adjust my dosage of "medicine". They see cardiac somewhere and start following regimens that may be counterproductive. THAT is why John Ritter died.

People die EVERY DAY in hospitals, and MANY are due to such problems.

Steve

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Kurt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

AW, SO smart and yet you keep ignoring the KEY POINTS!!!!!!!! ONE, I did NOT say anything against the doctors here! TWO, you are claiming that the doctors TOLD the nurses to infect me, and try to get me to pull all my stitches, on the pretense that I may get infected! Sometimes I wish I told them I had something like mumps or whatever! THEN when they take precautions to protect THEMSELVES, they would be inadvertently doing what I would want.

And NO, they did NOT save my life! They ENDANGERED it! LATER, nurses denied me some welcome ice cream, but gave me a diet heavy in vitamin K. That is the ONE thing I am not supposed to ingest so much. The nurses earlier had me in a class that primarily taught that ONE fact! Vitamin K is called Vitamin K because coagulation was spelled Koagulation, in Germany. And Warfarin works AGAINST that effect! It is, to people in my position, LITERALLY like SUGAR is to a diabetic! AND, LIKE a diabetic, I would have to somehow adjust my dosage of "medicine". They see cardiac somewhere and start following regimens that may be counterproductive. THAT is why John Ritter died.

People die EVERY DAY in hospitals, and MANY are due to such problems.

Steve

I think we found the real reason seasoned is so mad at the nurses. He didn't get his "welcome ice cream".

Why do I have a feeling the nurses put a "do not resuscitate" note in his files?

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Why do I have a feeling the nurses put a "do not resuscitate" note in his files?

Wishful thinking I guess! I actually TOYED with a DNR order, but where does it stop? I mean they had to stop my heart, etc... so resuscitation was actually a necessary part of the operation.

Steve
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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, the doctors didn't give ANY directions! So I am supposed to STARVE, huh? I mean SERIOUSLY, that is about all I wanted! ACTUALLY, they wanted to keep me longer! I FOUGHT to get out! SERIOUSLY, even 30 minutes before my discharge it was like "ONLY, IF....". So NOPE, they weren't quick to get me out of there.

Steve

You bounce off some strange walls, but I understand what you were saying.

The Medical Industrial Complex has become quite effective at cut and paste. If I needed something out - or changed out, or patched up, I'd be fairly confident that they could do a decent job of it.

I'd also fight like hell to get out before I caught one of their antibiotic resistant bacterias, or became "at risk" because of the malnutrition that kills so many every year in hospitals. The small percentage of medical staff that know a rat's behind about nutrition and its effects on the body is staggering. A 2 yr nursing degree gives a person more nutritional education than an 8 yr medical degree.

I'd also be looking for alternatives to any meds that are listed as "every day for the rest of your life". Our MIC has not found a cure for anything in over 5 decades. They have, however, come up with a myriad "control for life drugs". Go figure. Who'd think corporations would protect their profits?

Thom - the CDC website? How dare you. Don't you understand that you can learn enough about medicine to start prescribing other people's choices in treatments right off the nightly news?

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Kay King

11 years ago

The small percentage of medical staff that know a rat's behind about nutrition and its effects on the body is staggering. A 2 yr nursing degree gives a person more nutritional education than an 8 yr medical degree.

That's why there are "nutritionists". A 2 year nursing degree may teach the food pyramid - but it doesn't cover surgery or in depth symptomology. I think doctors are fully aware of the part nutrition plays in health - but most of them don't think of nutrition as a "cure" for disease.

A co-worker's father was in his late 70s with multiple health problems. He needed highly risky surgery to save his life. The doctor did not recommend the surgery as the chances of survival were not very good.

The woman and her mother INSISTED on the surgery - they fought the insurance company until they approved the surgery. The man had the surgery - lingered for about a month and died - exactly as the doctor had predicted as the likely outcome.

They are suing the doctor who did the surgery - the suit has been going on now for 3 years at least. They are trying to get a "settlement" and say "we couldn't afford all those medical costs" yet she and her mother chose surgery over the doctor's recommendation.

Steve - if surgery saved your life - be grateful. If there are other things you didn't like about the surgery - would you have preferred death? If the answer is "no" - then stop complaining.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Steve - if surgery saved your life - be grateful. If there are other things you didn't like about the surgery - would you have preferred death? If the answer is "no" - then stop complaining.

NON SEQUITORS!

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You bounce off some strange walls, but I understand what you were saying.

The Medical Industrial Complex has become quite effective at cut and paste. If I needed something out - or changed out, or patched up, I'd be fairly confident that they could do a decent job of it.

I'd also fight like hell to get out before I caught one of their antibiotic resistant bacterias, or became "at risk" because of the malnutrition that kills so many every year in hospitals. The small percentage of medical staff that know a rat's behind about nutrition and its effects on the body is staggering. A 2 yr nursing degree gives a person more nutritional education than an 8 yr medical degree.

I'd also be looking for alternatives to any meds that are listed as "every day for the rest of your life". Our MIC has not found a cure for anything in over 5 decades. They have, however, come up with a myriad "control for life drugs". Go figure. Who'd think corporations would protect their profits?

Thom - the CDC website? How dare you. Don't you understand that you can learn enough about medicine to start prescribing other people's choices in treatments right off the nightly news?

Well, for whatever reason, they only have two classes of valves:

1. Natural! They tend to last about 6 years, so I was too young for them. Anyway, apparently they gather bacteria, and can be a problem. So they would have had me taking antibiotics everyday.

2. Mechanical! Apparently, they destroy blood. This can cause blood clots, and they have you take warfarin, though for some cases you may have to take antibiotics.

At least with the other drug I can maybe work off of it.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

1. Natural! They tend to last about 6 years, so I was too young for them. Anyway, apparently they gather bacteria, and can be a problem. So they would have had me taking antibiotics everyday.

Steve

No they wouldn't... Antibiotics are prescribed in periods of courses... Your actually find your be put on a basic class of antibiotics first, more then likely some bacteria will show resistance to them. Then they will break out the antibiotics which have very like resistance to them such examples could be meropenem (Depending on the infection of course). Antibiotics such as Meropenem are stringently controlled and are giving out as a last resort due to very little resistance being shown to these sorts of antibiotics.

Just clarifying that you wouldn't be on them every day...

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

No they wouldn't... Antibiotics are prescribed in periods of courses... Your actually find your be put on a basic class of antibiotics first, more then likely some bacteria will show resistance to them. Then they will break out the antibiotics which have very like resistance to them such examples could be meropenem (Depending on the infection of course). Antibiotics such as Meropenem are stringently controlled and are giving out as a last resort due to very little resistance being shown to these sorts of antibiotics.

Just clarifying that you wouldn't be on them every day...

That's what ****I**** thought originally. I was told DIFFERENTLY by several doctors. I am pretty sure I googled also. Outside of this that implies it may be correct: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768319/ I found a few others that said it wasn't. STILL, NOT GOOD!

Steve

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

But hospitals are SEPTIC! You can see the careless way many nurses do things! They put me through that ordeal because of what MIGHT happen and it well could have. But the cure had a good chance of creating MORE problems!

Steve

Is your glass EVER half-full???

Cheers. - Frank

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Chris Worner

11 years ago

-Chris

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Quick Vaccine Math | Good Math/Bad Math

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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barbling

11 years ago

For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how people cannot see the benefits of vaccines.

Then again, the vast majority of human idjutness baffles me as well.

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==> Zero Cost MMO eClass! <<

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Barb,

For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how people cannot see the benefits of vaccines.

That's not really the issue for most of the folks who "oppose" vaccinations. There is a significant chunk of the populace which, when presented with the words must, should, or can't, will fight you. Even if the proposed action is 100% consistent with their best interests.

This reflexive rebellion makes sense for children and young teens. It doesn't for adults. But, it's the way people are.

Paul
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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by barbling

For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how people cannot see the benefits of vaccines.

Nor can I, I can point you to a multitude of studies from peer reviewed journals, your healthcare services, governing bodies and independent panels which support them. Then you get some random blogger which gets a journal article which points out a case from some RANDOM journal which says x suffered this due to y. (I would like to say that this article hasn't gone through PPER REVIEW) In reality, proving that a vaccination caused X is actually very complicated!!! It isn't as simple as, because patient A got a vaccination, they must of developed some random disease. The fact of the matter is this, the science behind studies which favour anti-vaccination is crap at best, this is why healthcare services, professionals, scientists, lectures, even students advocate the use of vaccinations.

I would like to point out that there are a whole bunch of factors which contribute to the development of auto immune and genetic disorders. Theses range from random mutations (such as: miss sense, deletions, insertions, conservational, break point and the list goes on), environmental factors (such as: carcinogenesis, diet, radiation etc...) and susceptibility (Is the patients immune system fit to fight off x infection...). From what I have read so far NO study has actually looked at these factors. This is due to the fact that since the likely hood of developing disorders from vaccinations is 1 in 100k / million, the financial cost of running these studies would be huge!

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Nor can I, I can point you to a multitude of studies from peer reviewed journals, your healthcare services, governing bodies and independent panels which support them. Then you get some random blogger which gets a journal article which points out a case from some RANDOM journal which says x suffered this due to y. (I would like to say that this article hasn't gone through PPER REVIEW) In reality, proving that a vaccination caused X is actually very complicated!!! It isn't as simple as, because patient A got a vaccination, they must of developed some random disease. The fact of the matter is this, the science behind studies which favour anti-vaccination is crap at best, this is why healthcare services, professionals, scientists, lectures, even students advocate the use of vaccinations.

SERIOUSLY, the garbage about Autism is LUDICROUS! I doubt many are avoiding it because of THAT. I HAVEN'T! HEY, I thought about getting the HPV shot, because a LOT of people have HPV, and I DON'T! For whatever MORONIC reason, they were only giving it to FEMALES! Apparently, it turned out to be BAD! But I couldn't get it. BTW, females can get HPV from MALES, like males can from females! And HPV CAN give males a cancer that is perhaps even considered worse for males than the uterine cancer is for females! And females are OFTEN checked for such cancer(Through a PAP SMEAR), and men AREN'T!

I decided to give in, and get the shingles vaccine, because I have had chicken pox! ALAS, I am too young!

There were EVEN a couple times where I WANTED a FLU vaccine and was FORBIDDEN to have it because I was too young, and healthy! They were saving the vaccines for older and less healthy people. It happens when there is a shortage.

But STILL, I don't get vaccinated with everything coming down the pike. I haven't had a flue shot for a few years. I ALSO haven't had the flu!

I would like to point out that there are a whole bunch of factors which contribute to the development of auto immune and genetic disorders. Theses range from random mutations (such as: miss sense, deletions, insertions, conservational, break point and the list goes on), environmental factors (such as: carcinogenesis, diet, radiation etc...) and susceptibility (Is the patients immune system fit to fight off x infection...). From what I have read so far NO study has actually looked at these factors. This is due to the fact that since the likely hood of developing disorders from vaccinations is 1 in 100k / million, the financial cost of running these studies would be huge!

There is *****NO***** way they can test out so many variables. As for most of the things you are talking about? THAT IS THE POINT! NOBODY cares about the exact reason why, they only want to avoid a piece of the puzzle.

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

Yeah, I doubt there is ANYONE that doesn't see the advantages of vaccinations. If it weren't for all the garbage thrown into everything, they would likely be accepted far more often. As for sbucciarel saying:

"some people are pretty damned stupid and misinformed. "?

I guess SHE is one of them! If not for such "misinformation", vaccinations WOULD NOT EVEN EXIST! Jenner apparently got in some trouble when he INTENTIONALLY infected a person with cowpox to prove that smallpox was SO close that the far less dangerous cowpox created an immunity to smallpox. And there HAVE been studies showing that that type of immunity is STRONGER than a vaccination with a dead virus!

SO, to review! The method was the FIRST, is STILL the best, and is the SOURCE of all other methods! So WHY don't they do this TODAY? Well, in some cases they DO! They simply WEAKEN the virus to try to confer the immunity without giving one the full disease. In some cases, a dead virus is good enough that they use that. With the early small pox, people lucked out because there was a VERY similar virus that was far weaker and did what attenuated viruses today do.

Attenuated vaccine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

Steve

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Who's winning?

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butters 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Who's winning?

Stupidity? Un-rational? I'm sure I could put a massive list here but them people, society has gone down the crapper!!
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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Who's winning?

Charlie Sheen.
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- yukon Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Charlie Sheen.
  
  Good old Charlie, yea, he's always WINNING!
  
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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW.....

What Obama Said About Vaccines and Autism in 2008...

HEY...... BARRY! *****I***** know why! I said it HERE! They BROADENED the diagnosis, and they are allowing it to be used to lessen jail sentences, get funding, get disability, etc..... Never mind that it is now easier to diagnose nearly anything as autism.

Steve

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Don't take this post the wrong way, because I'm not taking the side of those against forced vaccinations. I really haven't given it enough thought to have a position, but it's not like the gov't hasn't given people cause to be suspicious of them in the past.

A few excerpts:

One of the methods that was commonly suggested to get rid of "inferior" populations was euthanasia. A 1911 Carnegie Institute report mentioned euthanasia as one of its recommended "solutions" to the problem of cleansing society of unfit genetic attributes. The most commonly suggested method was to set up local gas chambers. However, many in the eugenics movement did not believe that Americans were ready to implement a large-scale euthanasia program, so many doctors had to find clever ways of subtly implementing eugenic euthanasia in various medical institutions. For example, a mental institution in Lincoln, Illinois fed its incoming patients milk infected with tuberculosis (reasoning that genetically fit individuals would be resistant), resulting in 30-40% annual death rates. Other doctors practiced euthanasia through various forms of lethal neglect.[61]
Source: Eugenics in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between 1960 and 1971, the Department of Defense funded non-consensual whole body radiation experiments on poor, black cancer patients, who were not told what was being done to them. Patients were told that they were receiving a "treatment" that might cure their cancer, but the Pentagon was trying to determine the effects of high levels of radiation on the human body. One of the doctors involved in the experiments, Robert Stone, was worried about litigation by the patients. He referred to them only by their initials on the medical reports. He did this so that, in his words, "there will be no means by which the patients can ever connect themselves up with the report", in order to prevent "either adverse publicity or litigation".[91]

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment[1] was an infamous clinical study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the U.S. Public Health Service to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis in rural African American men who thought they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government.[1]
Source: Unethical human experimentation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The syphilis experiments in Guatemala were United States-led human experiments conducted in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, during the administration of President Truman and President Juan José Arévalo with the cooperation of some Guatemalan health ministries and officials.[1] Doctors infected soldiers, prostitutes, prisoners and mental patients with syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases, without the informed consent of the subjects, and treated most subjects with antibiotics. This resulted in at least 83 deaths.[2] In October 2010, the U.S. formally apologized to Guatemala for conducting these experiments.
Source: Guatemala syphilis experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And lest you think all the human experimentation is old:

The EPA conducted five research studies in 2010 and 2011 involving 81 human subjects during which the OIG determined that "exposure risks were not always consistently represented," and the agency "did not include information on long-term cancer risks in its diesel exhaust studies' consent forms."
Source: EPA Conducted Experiments on Humans with Cancer-Causing and Lethal Pollutants | Committee on Science - U.S. House of Representatives

There's a lot more that is known, but what is there that is still undiscovered?

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Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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onSubie

11 years ago

Meanwhile in Canada it is all over the news...

A Queen's University professor is accused of teaching that vaccines cause autism and teaching anti-vaccine science. The slides are pretty shocking.

Queen's University prof accused of teaching anti-vaccine "misinformation" in class | As It Happens with Carol Off and Jeff Douglas | CBC Radio

A "vaccine free" daycare has opened in Ottawa. A couple who has not vaccinated their child is running a daycare for other parents who do not vaccinate their children.

Vaccine-free daycare criticized by Ottawa Public Health - Ottawa - CBC News

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socialentry

Banned 11 years ago

Crackpot index

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socialentry

Banned 11 years ago

Its Over 9000!!! [Original Video and Audio] -...

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

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whateverpedia

11 years ago

Satire is the best way of reporting controversial topics:

So, I decided to do my own research and what I found was *staggering*: Hundreds of people every year are seriously injured by unnecessary braking. One time, I was driving in the snow and I just lightly tapped my brakes and it caused my car to COMPLETELY LOSE CONTROL. My brakes could have very easily gotten me killed. Even more astoundingly is how often brake pads will warp and distort rotors, causing bumpy rides and squeaky wheels.

And you know what? I also found that decades ago brakes weren’t even used! People would control their vehicle’s speed with downshifting and engine braking. Maybe it’s just coincidence, but back when engine braking was used there were almost no automotive fatalities. There were NEVER brake caused car accidents.

After doing some more digging, I found a nefarious plot - Mechanics: The very people who we trust to work on and care for our cars - get PAID to install and change brakes! You might THINK they care about our safety, or our cars - but they’re just in it for the $49.99 brake pad installations.

I'm an antibraker

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Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?

So that blind people can hate them as well.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Kay - you are right and knowing that the "food pyramid" pushers have more nutrition education than the average doctor should be one hella scary heads up. People don't understand what a US medical education consists of. If they did, they'd choke - but it's easy research to find out, ya know?

I can see why the doctor should be sued. If he knew the surgery was a bad idea, he should have stuck to his guns instead of taking orders from someone who knows nothing about it. If she was that adamant, let her find a surgeon who was more on the take. There's plenty out there that will do needless surgery.

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When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Kay - you are right and knowing that the "food pyramid" pushers have more nutrition education than the average doctor should be one hella scary heads up. People don't understand what a US medical education consists of. If they did, they'd choke - but it's easy research to find out, ya know?

I can see why the doctor should be sued. If he knew the surgery was a bad idea, he should have stuck to his guns instead of taking orders from someone who knows nothing about it. If she was that adamant, let her find a surgeon who was more on the take. There's plenty out there that will do needless surgery.

Yeah, no doctor can know it all, but many claim to. And there are a lot of stupid laws that limit people. The ONLY hope a person with an ambiguous or unusual problem has is to research it themselves, and try to end up with the person that appears to be the expert in that area. OFTEN, those that know about an obscure thing encountered it in some way, and didn't learn it in school.

As for the doctor? Part of the malpractice insurance is based on their JUDGEMENT and SUCCESS. If they judge wrong, their costs can shoot up!

As for this being a US medical education, you can bet it is true all over. HECK, they have a lot of training and study just to learn the language! They only teach so much in highschool biology and life science!

When I last went into a borders book store, they had a whole section set aside that had things like flashcards for medical terms for nursing and doctors. BTW MOST nurses, at least in the US, aren't REALLY nurses! Most have little if any training. RNs are the only ones that can be autonomous, and LVNs are the only other ones that are even LICENSED. LVNs study about a year, and ALSO must learn other things, like language and basic testing.

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

For those of you who deny a link between Thirmerosal and autism - pubmed studies seem to disagree with you. I just did some rehash research in an attempt to show you that you don't learn medicine on TV. There are plenty more studies, but I don't have time to go over all of them when you are all as capable of this research as I am. Also - the "about the authors" can be clicked to on the pages and I figure it's your responsibility to click to see those before calling them idiots and your local news teams geniuses. I did get one in, John Hopkins - and I know you all think they're idiots and conspiracy theorists...right?

There was a reason that this crap was taken out of most vaccines....most. Not all. Know what you're doing before you allow someone to stick a needle in your kid's arm. YOU are the one ultimately responsible if something goes wrong:

Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Jul;114(7):1083-91.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated interleukin-6 secretion in dendritic cells by nanomolar thimerosal.
Goth SR1, Chu RA, Gregg JP, Cherednichenko G, Pessah IN.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated inter... - PubMed - NCBI
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2006 Jul 15;214(2):99-108. Epub 2006 Jun 16.
Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for environmental toxicity.
Nataf R1, Skorupka C, Amet L, Lam A, Springbett A, Lathe R.

Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for envi... - PubMed - NCBI

Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. doi: 10.1016/j.etp.2008.07.002. Epub 2008 Sep 3.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal. - PubMed - NCBI

Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal.
Burbacher TM1, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys expo... - PubMed - NCBI

Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;9(4):358-70.
Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal.
Waly M1, Olteanu H, Banerjee R, Choi SW, Mason JB, Parker BS, Sukumar S, Shim S, Sharma A, Benzecry JM, Power-Charnitsky VA, Deth RC.

Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 a... - PubMed - NCBI

J Child Neurol. 2008 Apr;23(4):463; author reply 463-5. doi: 10.1177/0883073808314647.
Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a reanalysis of an important data set.
Aschner M.

Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a r... - PubMed - NCBI

J Child Neurol. 2006 Feb;21(2):170-2.
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism.
Poling JS1, Frye RE, Shoffner J, Zimmerman AW.

Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI
Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006

Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery

Johns Hopkins Hospital
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI
J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2006 Nov-Dec;9(6):485-99.
Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism.
Kern JK1, Jones AM.

Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism. - PubMed - NCBI

Neurotoxicology. 2005 Jan;26(1):1-8.
Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: protection with glutathione precursors.
James SJ1, Slikker W 3rd, Melnyk S, New E, Pogribna M, Jernigan S.

Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: ... - PubMed - NCBI

I found the last one particularly interesting because L-glutamine (digests into glutathione) is one of the elements I used to cure Ricky's cancer - and one of the elements I take regularly for skin tone and preventative health.

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When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

For those of you who deny a link between Thirmerosal and autism - pubmed studies seem to disagree with you.

So, 14 years after the fact, you finally get around to doing some research on thimerosal. Well, better late than never, I guess.

Here's some more research. According to the CDC, reported autism is on the rise. Funny thing about that if thimerosal was to blame and it's no longer in the childhood vaccines.

Yesterday, the CDC released its newest data on the number of children affected by autism in the country. The health and education records of 8-year-old children in 11 states - Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Maryland, Missouri, New Jersey, North Carolina, Utah, and Wisconsin - were combed to arrive at the new numbers. The finding that many have expressed concern about is that now 1 in 68 children may have autism spectrum disorder (ASD). The number is up markedly from two years ago when it was 1 in 88, and seven years ago when it was 1 in 150.

One would assume that if thimerosal were to blame for autism, autism would be in a very sharp decline rather than increasing.

Some other interesting facts about autism.

There was a huge variation in the number of children with ASD in different areas of the country: for example, 1 in 175 children in Alabama vs. 1 in 45 in New Jersey was identified with ASD.

Similar to trends in the past, boys were five times as likely as girls to be diagnosed with ASD: "About 1 in 42 boys and 1 in 189 girls were identified with ASD," says the CDC.

The rates of ASD diagnosis differed between ethnicities of children: Among white children, the rate was about 1 in 63; among black children, it was 1 in 81; and among Hispanic children, 1 in 93.

Interesting the fact about Hispanic and black children having a higher rate of autism, even though traditionally, due to lower income levels, they have a much lower rate of being vaccinated.

Also interesting that boys are more likely than girls to be autistic. Do parents just vaccinate their little boys and not the girls?

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

So, 14 years after the fact, you finally get around to doing some research on thimerosal. Well, better late than never, I guess.

Here's some more research. According to the CDC, reported autism is on the rise. Funny thing about that if thimerosal was to blame and it's no longer in the childhood vaccines.

One would assume that if thimerosal were to blame for autism, autism would be in a very sharp decline rather than increasing.

Some other interesting facts about autism.

Interesting the fact about Hispanic and black children having a higher rate of autism, even though traditionally, due to lower income levels, they have a much lower rate of being vaccinated.

Also interesting that boys are more likely than girls to be autistic. Do parents just vaccinate their little boys and not the girls?

AGAIN, MEANINGLESS!!!!!!!!!

Are 100% of kids in even the US checked? NOPE! Are they checked by the same person? NOPE! Do males and females think/act the same way? NOPE! Are expectations the same? NOPE! Can one set of criteria be used to judge them? OF COURSE NOT!

There was a huge variation in the number of children with ASD in different areas of the country: for example, 1 in 175 children in Alabama vs. 1 in 45 in New Jersey was identified with ASD.

Do STATES have the SAME person following the SAME criteria checking the SAME percentage of children? NOPE! So SORRY, MEANINGLESS!!!!!!

Similar to trends in the past, boys were five times as likely as girls to be diagnosed with ASD: "About 1 in 42 boys and 1 in 189 girls were identified with ASD," says the CDC.

Some AUTISTIC actions will be ACCEPTED in girls more than boys! As for shyness and the like, it will be more apparent in boys than girls. There are MANY reasons why things will be OVERLOOKED in girls. STILL, more and more girls are getting diagnosed!

The rates of ASD diagnosis differed between ethnicities of children: Among white children, the rate was about 1 in 63; among black children, it was 1 in 81; and among Hispanic children, 1 in 93.

There could be LOTS of reasons here, including funding and money to check. BESIDES, whether 1 in 63 or 1 in 93, it is close enough. Will percentages always be identical in ANY randomly selected group? OF COURSE NOT!

Steve

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Cali16

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Are 100% of kids in even the US checked? NOPE! Are they checked by the same person? NOPE! Do males and females think/act the same way? NOPE! Are expectations the same? NOPE! Can one set of criteria be used to judge them? OF COURSE NOT!

Some AUTISTIC actions will be ACCEPTED in girls more than boys! As for shyness and the like, it will be more apparent in boys than girls. There are MANY reasons why things will be OVERLOOKED in girls. STILL, more and more girls are getting diagnosed!

Steve, do you have any graduate level training in medicine or clinical psychology? Do you have any credentials that qualify you to diagnose disorders? I'm guessing the answer is no to both of those questions.

I've made several thousand diagnoses over the course of my mental health career. There are myriad things we take into consideration when making a diagnosis, including gender differences. Contrary to your assumptions, diagnoses aren't made willy-nilly.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Steve, do you have any graduate level training in medicine or clinical psychology? Do you have any credentials that qualify you to diagnose disorders? I'm guessing the answer is no to both of those questions.

1. NOPE! NEVER even claimed to!
2. I read the DSM, which is apparently more than most do!

I've made several thousand diagnoses over the course of my mental health career. There are myriad things we take into consideration when making a diagnosis, including gender differences. Contrary to your assumptions, diagnoses aren't made willy-nilly.

OK, As I said before, GREAT! I'm happy for you! As for gender differences, I DID allude to those earlier! And Diagnoses often ARE made willy nilly! THAT is the problem. HECK, I have heard of people being judged by like a jury, and others that sought out the "right" doctor, and some that were able to change their diagnosis. None of that would make sense, or be possible, if it were written in stone and adhered to.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

1. NOPE! NEVER even claimed to!
2. I read the DSM, which is apparently more than most do!

OK, As I said before, GREAT! I'm happy for you! As for gender differences, I DID allude to those earlier! And Diagnoses often ARE made willy nilly! THAT is the problem. HECK, I have heard of people being judged by like a jury, and others that sought out the "right" doctor, and some that were able to change their diagnosis. None of that would make sense, or be possible, if it were written in stone and adhered to.

Steve

Given the culture of the US and how they like to sue, do you reckon any intelligent minded individual (Health professionals fall into this category) would actually diagnose willy nilly. Sure if they wasn't held ACCOUNTABLE for their decision in the eye of the law, maybe, but they are held accountable. I would confidently say that since they are held accountable by the law, there thought process for every patient is quite the opposite to what you describe.

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Given the culture of the US and how they like to sue, do you reckon any intelligent minded individual (Health professionals fall into this category) would actually diagnose willy nilly. .

Who is this Willy Nilly you all keep talking about ? Was he some kind of hypochondriac who went to get treatment at a lot of hospitals?

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Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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butters 11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Who is this Willy Nilly you all keep talking about ? Was he some kind of hypochondriac who went to get treatment at a lot of hospitals?

Oh willy nilly, he was a royal pain in the ass I hear... Doctors would try cure him and he was never satisfied. He turnt to any doctor he could listen to, even the quacks. Now he is dead moral of the story, eat doghnuts, everything is better with a chocolate doghnut!
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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Given the culture of the US and how they like to sue, do you reckon any intelligent minded individual (Health professionals fall into this category) would actually diagnose willy nilly. Sure if they wasn't held ACCOUNTABLE for their decision in the eye of the law, maybe, but they are held accountable. I would confidently say that since they are held accountable by the law, there thought process for every patient is quite the opposite to what you describe.

OH, that's CUTE! You think there is NO malpractice in the US! There IS! WHO would sue, and WHY? They generally go because they want special things, help, or a diagnosis. If you give them all three, they are happy! BTW it IS worth noting that they keep changing that part of the DSM! The last time was 5/18/2013. Realize that is not even 2 years old! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5#Criticism

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

OH, that's CUTE! You think there is NO malpractice in the US! There IS! WHO would sue, and WHY? They generally go because they want special things, help, or a diagnosis. If you give them all three, they are happy! BTW it IS worth noting that they keep changing that part of the DSM! The last time was 5/18/2013. Realize that is not even 2 years old! DSM-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Steve

Steve, someone who tells people in this post to re read what you wrote, I suggest you do the same. Of course there is malpractice, never stated there wasn't... Actually re read what I said because I wasn't even talking about malpractice.

Thanks

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Cali16 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

1. NOPE! NEVER even claimed to!

Sigh....... Clearly you are missing the point I am trying to make. You can't fully appreciate or judge how diagnoses are made without being fully trained to make them and having made several yourself. I am not saying that to be condescending at all, and if I come across that way, I sincerely apologize. But your perspective is frighteningly myopic.

Originally Posted by seasoned

2. I read the DSM, which is apparently more than most do!

More than the average person? Probably. More than any mental health professional? Not likely. You should see my DSM-IV - the binding is completely destroyed and it's literally falling apart from extensive use - it's now held together precariously with a lot of tape. It's been highlighted, underlined, written in, and dogeared to death. My DSM-III is also very well-worn.

Reading the DSM (or a medical text) doesn't qualify you to make diagnoses, or to understand everything that's taken into consideration when they are made. That comes from proper training and a lot of clinical experience. There's a lot of skill involved in diagnostic interviewing and evaluations - and you can't get that from simply reading the DSM or any other book.

I'm truly sorry you've had such a horrible experience with the healthcare system (despite the fact it's saved your life) that your opinion of all doctors and other medical and mental health professionals is replete with such contempt and disdain.
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- BigFrank Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Cali16
  
  I'm truly sorry you've had such a horrible experience with the healthcare system (despite the fact it's saved your life).
  
  Actually, that would be OUR horrible experience with the heathcare system.
  
  I hate that he has me on 'ignore.' :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  discrat 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  Actually, that would be OUR horrible experience with the heathcare system.
  
  I hate that he has me on 'ignore.' :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Yeah frank but he doesn't have me on ignore.
  
  So I can be a conduit for your words and give you a Platform which you can be seen profoundly by Steve
  
  Thanks
  
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  Signature
  
  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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  BigFrank Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Yeah frank but he doesn't have me on ignore.
  
  Not, yet - anyway!
  
  So I can be a conduit for your words and give you a Platform which you can be seen profoundly by Steve
  
  Honestly, he's completely devoid of any semblance of a sense of humor, so I'll toss my bon mots to those that appreciate them, which includes those that would never admit to doing so. :-)
  
  Thanks for the offer.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Thanks
  
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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

For those of you who deny a link between Thirmerosal and autism - pubmed studies seem to disagree with you. I just did some rehash research in an attempt to show you that you don't learn medicine on TV. There are plenty more studies, but I don't have time to go over all of them when you are all as capable of this research as I am. Also - the "about the authors" can be clicked to on the pages and I figure it's your responsibility to click to see those before calling them idiots and your local news teams geniuses. I did get one in, John Hopkins - and I know you all think they're idiots and conspiracy theorists...right?

There was a reason that this crap was taken out of most vaccines....most. Not all. Know what you're doing before you allow someone to stick a needle in your kid's arm. YOU are the one ultimately responsible if something goes wrong:

Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Jul;114(7):1083-91.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated interleukin-6 secretion in dendritic cells by nanomolar thimerosal.
Goth SR1, Chu RA, Gregg JP, Cherednichenko G, Pessah IN.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated inter... - PubMed - NCBI
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2006 Jul 15;214(2):99-108. Epub 2006 Jun 16.
Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for environmental toxicity.
Nataf R1, Skorupka C, Amet L, Lam A, Springbett A, Lathe R.

Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for envi... - PubMed - NCBI

Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. doi: 10.1016/j.etp.2008.07.002. Epub 2008 Sep 3.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal. - PubMed - NCBI

Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal.
Burbacher TM1, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys expo... - PubMed - NCBI

Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;9(4):358-70.
Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal.
Waly M1, Olteanu H, Banerjee R, Choi SW, Mason JB, Parker BS, Sukumar S, Shim S, Sharma A, Benzecry JM, Power-Charnitsky VA, Deth RC.

Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 a... - PubMed - NCBI

J Child Neurol. 2008 Apr;23(4):463; author reply 463-5. doi: 10.1177/0883073808314647.
Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a reanalysis of an important data set.
Aschner M.

Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a r... - PubMed - NCBI

J Child Neurol. 2006 Feb;21(2):170-2.
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism.
Poling JS1, Frye RE, Shoffner J, Zimmerman AW.

Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI
Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006

Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery

Johns Hopkins Hospital
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI
J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2006 Nov-Dec;9(6):485-99.
Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism.
Kern JK1, Jones AM.

Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism. - PubMed - NCBI

Neurotoxicology. 2005 Jan;26(1):1-8.
Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: protection with glutathione precursors.
James SJ1, Slikker W 3rd, Melnyk S, New E, Pogribna M, Jernigan S.

Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: ... - PubMed - NCBI

I found the last one particularly interesting because L-glutamine (digests into glutathione) is one of the elements I used to cure Ricky's cancer - and one of the elements I take regularly for skin tone and preventative health.

Mercury CAN affect neurons, obviously, but that is ALL neurons. The idea that it would tend to affect only social ones is highly unlikely. This is ESPECIALLY true, since MOTOR neurons often tend to be the first affected. But the statistics aren't meaningful. You might as well call blindness autism, and mix that in. So you could say a bright light, or excess oxygen can cause autism.

But it is a dead argument anyway.

Steve

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butters

11 years ago

I went through every one of your articles you have just posted, ok, 1 or maybe two the science was at such a high quality my understanding was limited. I'm saying that upfront because when you reply to this I expect you to explain what most of these articles actually mean.

What I have learnt from this post is this... People can cherry pick journal articles, read the titles, assume no one will look because they complicated. It takes someone who is either sad or as bored as me to look at them just to see if your trying to miss lead other. More importantly, its important that people realise that while your post looks intelligent, the majority of these articles don't even talk about what your arguing.

My reply is under each quote.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Jul;114(7):1083-91.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated interleukin-6 secretion in dendritic cells by nanomolar thimerosal.
Goth SR1, Chu RA, Gregg JP, Cherednichenko G, Pessah IN.
Uncoupling of ATP-mediated calcium signaling and dysregulated inter... - PubMed - NCBI
Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2006 Jul 15;214(2):99-108. Epub 2006 Jun 16.

Not sure how you can claim that this links to autism based on the fact that it isn't even mentioned in the article once... This is very definitive proof that if the word isn't in the article, the actual article isn't about the thing your arguing.

Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for environmental toxicity.
Nataf R1, Skorupka C, Amet L, Lam A, Springbett A, Lathe R.

Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: implications for envi... - PubMed - NCBI

This is an environmental studies looking at Coproporphyrin involvement in autism, it doesn't even mention vaccinations or mercury.

Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. doi: 10.1016/j.etp.2008.07.002. Epub 2008 Sep 3.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.
Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal. - PubMed - NCBI

Mice... Not human studies, animal studies differ from human studies. Also, this is more of a review of another study based on the abstract, find me the original study please.

It also says this for their study: Thus, our studies, although not directly addressing the controversy surrounding thimerosal and autism, and still preliminary due to small numbers of mice examined, provide, nevertheless.

They are looking at gender links, considering that the likely hood of developing autisum ranges from 1/100k - million, a small study isn't going to cut it really is it.

Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal.
Burbacher TM1, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T.
Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys expo... - PubMed - NCBI

Theres a big difference between human studies and animal studies... Once again, this does not prove a link.

Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;9(4):358-70.
Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal.
Waly M1, Olteanu H, Banerjee R, Choi SW, Mason JB, Parker BS, Sukumar S, Shim S, Sharma A, Benzecry JM, Power-Charnitsky VA, Deth RC.

Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 a... - PubMed - NCBI

I tell you what, you explain that article to me... Don't cherry pick your journal articles, first explain to me methylation, then what the MAPK, PI3K pathway actually do. Don't Google it, you should know it already if your willing to put it into an argument. Ill explain what this journal article says, it says that ethylmercury has the potential note the lack of the word definitive please... to inhibit these molecular pathways (in a round about way), essentially effecting methylation. Lets take a look at what can go wrong in these pathways, this is off the top of my head ofcourse... PI3K: Right, this pathway is made up of a cascade of genes and kinases which allow for normal cellular function. This pathway is also subjected to many forms of mutations and outside interference which can result in genetic defects etc... Right, DNA methylation, subjected to things such as insertions, deletions etc... What this article doesn't take into consideration is the bodies natural ability to repair its own DNA and replace mutations... If we considered that our body goes through millions of cellular mutations a day, saying that something potentially does something isn't really much at all. The science in this article is very, very heavy and extremely hard to comprehend what it actually means. Hey, my understanding isn't that great on it so please explain to me in scientific terms what this article actually means.

The reality of the situation is this, ethylmerucry causes oxidative stress, all of these experiments you have listed are cultured in a lab. None of them take into considerations the bodies natural defense against oxidative stress. Infections cause oxidative stress, cancer causes oxidative stress, heck, trauma can cause oxidative stress. Don't tell me getting punched causes autism!!

J Child Neurol. 2008 Apr;23(4):463; author reply 463-5. doi: 10.1177/0883073808314647.
Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a reanalysis of an important data set.
Aschner M.

Re: Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a r... - PubMed - NCBI

You kidding me again... This article doesn't even have an abstract, it has a title and then you have to buy the journal article. How can you even use that in an argument? That's like reading the news paper and taking their title as fact.

J Child Neurol. 2006 Feb;21(2):170-2.
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism.
Poling JS1, Frye RE, Shoffner J, Zimmerman AW.

Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI
Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006

Same article as below...

Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery

Johns Hopkins Hospital
Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child w... - PubMed - NCBI

Don't just look at the title, read the article for atleast 2 minuets. This doesn't even mention Thirmerosal or even ethylmercury for that matter...

J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2006 Nov-Dec;9(6):485-99.
Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism.
Kern JK1, Jones AM.

Evidence of toxicity, oxidative stress, and neuronal insult in autism. - PubMed - NCBI

No mention of Thirmerosal or mercury once again. Yes you can argue that oxidative stress causes autism and that Thirmerosal causes at higher activation of ROS. But then again, the cells counter that very effectively, if oxidative stress is the soul reason we got autism then there would be a lot more cases... Read the abstract atleast.

Neurotoxicology. 2005 Jan;26(1):1-8.
Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: protection with glutathione precursors.
James SJ1, Slikker W 3rd, Melnyk S, New E, Pogribna M, Jernigan S.

Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: ... - PubMed - NCBI

This is looking at neuroblastoma cells (Cancer cells). This isn't an interesting article at all... It even states that when under the normal conditions glutathione has a protective effect. Once again, read the abstract atleast..

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HeySal

11 years ago

No, actually Suzanne - I did the research a long time ago. I just got around to going back to pubmed and grabbing some links to some of the studies for people who think 100% that there's not any link.

Sorry - but I trust independent studies far more than any organization that backs up pharmaceutical ownership of human health. If I followed CDC and AMA health info - I'd be dead twice now. Not worth it to me. I do my own study from bona fide clinical research........and it's worked for me. I can walk into a whole room of sick people and don't even have to flinch. I haven't got 100 vaccines. I have an immune system instead.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I can walk into a whole room of sick people and don't even have to flinch. I haven't got 100 vaccines. I have an immune system instead.

I know of no one who has 100 vaccines. The ordinary childhood vaccinations that are recommended are less than 10.

I've had mine and I still have a very healthy immune system. I just took care of my father and brother simultaneously who had the flu and I still haven't gotten it, and I didn't get the flu shot, so my immune system is functioning perfectly, I'd say... and I did actually, in fact, walk into a building with hundreds of infectious people when I took my father to the hospital for his flu.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I know of no one who has 100 vaccines. The ordinary childhood vaccinations that are recommended are less than 10.

I've had mine and I still have a very healthy immune system. I just took care of my father and brother simultaneously who had the flu and I still haven't gotten it, and I didn't get the flu shot, so my immune system is functioning perfectly, I'd say... and I did actually, in fact, walk into a building with hundreds of infectious people when I took my father to the hospital for his flu.

The CDC recommends about TWENTY FOUR shots! That is SHOTS! And what of vaccines? Well, in the first like 18 shots, it is for about 23 vaccines!

CDC - Vaccines - Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules

Let's see! The average kid is probably required to have effectively 12+ vaccines. The average flu shot has about 4 vaccines! They CALL it "the flu vaccine", but that is just to make things easier. It is REALLY a selection of vaccines to 3-4 STRAINS of flu they feel will appear. SO, you only need to be "vaccinated" against "the flu" about 22 times to have had about 88 vaccines. Say you start at 18, and get one every year, you will reach 100 by the time you are about 40yo(assuming only 12 required)! BTW, I believe I only had 12 of them, not including the couple dozen flu strain vaccines I have had.

So 100 is certainly VERY possible, including by someone like YOU!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

The CDC recommends about TWENTY FOUR shots! That is SHOTS! And what of vaccines? Well, in the first like 18 shots, it is for about 23 vaccines!

CDC - Vaccines - Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules

Let's see! The average kid is probably required to have effectively 12+ vaccines. The average flu shot has about 4 vaccines! They CALL it "the flu vaccine", but that is just to make things easier. It is REALLY a selection of vaccines to 3-4 STRAINS of flu they feel will appear. SO, you only need to be "vaccinated" against "the flu" about 22 times to have had about 88 vaccines. Say you start at 18, and get one every year, you will reach 100 by the time you are about 40yo(assuming only 12 required)! BTW, I believe I only had 12 of them, not including the couple dozen flu strain vaccines I have had.

So 100 is certainly VERY possible, including by someone like YOU!

Steve

This is exactly what my children got, per the requirement of Virginia schools

DPT 4 doses
Polio 4 doses
MMR 2 doses
Hepatitis B 3 doses

Now this one is required
Varicella (Chickenpox) 2 doses

None of us have ever had the flu vaccine except one daughter in the last couple of years because she is a nurse and it is required. It is not required for school.

So that is a total of nine vaccines with the combined shots of MMR and DPT, as I said, less than 10 vaccines and a total of 15 shots.

Some of those vaccines, like MMR, Chickenpox and Hepatitis B were not available when I was a kid going to school. So I got measles, and I got mumps and I got chickenpox. I did get the smallpox vaccine, which is no longer required.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

This is exactly what my children got, per the requirement of Virginia schools

DPT 4 doses
Polio 4 doses
MMR 2 doses
Hepatitis B 3 doses

Now this one is required
Varicella (Chickenpox) 2 doses

None of us have ever had the flu vaccine except one daughter in the last couple of years because she is a nurse and it is required. It is not required for school.

So that is a total of nine vaccines with the combined shots of MMR and DPT, as I said, less than 10 vaccines and a total of 15 shots.

Some of those vaccines, like MMR, Chickenpox and Hepatitis B were not available when I was a kid going to school. So I got measles, and I got mumps and I got chickenpox. I did get the smallpox vaccine, which is no longer required.

WOW, so why the hatred towards ME!? I got all you did AND, I believe I got MMR, though I DID get the DISEASES measles and chickenpox. I don't think I got the hepatitis B vaccine, but I haven't done things many do to get it. I also never got the illness. And I HAVE gotten some flu shots.

For what it is worth, the above vaccines have been effective, and most are potentially VERY bad diseases. So I was happy with the idea to take them. Varicella is one of the LEAST invasive, or the viruses, IIRC, but supposedly can lead to shingles. I got chickenpox, so I might get shingles later. Ironically, the drugstore says I can NOT get the shingles shot because I am too young! Like I said, I ended up seeking out the polio vaccine. With the flu ones, I don't trust the government enough to take the chance to MAYBE save 1-2 weeks in a year.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW, so why the hatred towards ME!?

Steve

What hatred exactly are you talking about? Do you even know or does this crap just pop out while you're typing?

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

What hatred exactly are you talking about? Do you even know or does this crap just pop out while you're typing?

People talk to me like I would dissuade someone from taking these vaccines, etc...

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

People talk to me like I would dissuade someone from taking these vaccines, etc...

Steve

Excuse me for responding to your claim of people getting 100 vaccines. Most people, if any do not get 100 vaccines. Maybe some do over a lifetime of travel to exotic places, but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Cali16

I'm truly sorry you've had such a horrible experience with the healthcare system (despite the fact it's saved your life) that your opinion of all doctors and other medical and mental health professionals is replete with such contempt and disdain.

They didn't give him his welcome ice cream. I would be pissed too.

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They didn't give him his welcome ice cream. I would be pissed too.

I don't normally admit to this in public, but they actually gave me Steve's share of the ice-cream. And it turned out to be chocolate, too. So I have enough enthusiasm for doctors, for the two of us.

.
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Karen Blundell 11 years ago

This is exactly what my children got, per the requirement of Virginia schools

DPT 4 doses
Polio 4 doses
MMR 2 doses
Hepatitis B 3 doses

I think here in Canada, it's 7 vaccines - or at least it was when my son was a kid -
I don't have his vaccine card any more - he does - he did get the meningitis one when he was in high school too. I recall he got a bad reaction to that one and was sick for a couple of days - with flu-like symptoms but they went away fairly quickly and he is as healthy as ever -
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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

I had three shots:

1 Peppermint Schnapps
1 Ouzo
1 Vanilla Schnapps

I liked the Ouzo the best.

<-- There would be a "rolleyes" emoticon there if the emoticons worked.

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Kurt

11 years ago

I think we should all pitch in and buy seasoned a pint of Cherry Garcia to help him feel better about his life-saving surgery...

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seasoned

11 years ago

To CLARIFY! When I said WELCOME ICE CREAM, I meant I woud welcome it, NOT that I expected icecream just for being there. You talk about the icecream I wanted, and not the greens that could have KILLED me?

Steve

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Kurt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

To CLARIFY! When I said WELCOME ICE CREAM, I meant I woud welcome it, NOT that I expected icecream just for being there. You talk about the icecream I wanted, and not the greens that could have KILLED me?

Steve

OK OK....You win. We'll pitch in and get you some ice cream and ***KALE***!

But I do appreciate that you would say "Hello" to the ice cream.

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Claude Whitacre 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

OK OK....You win. We'll pitch in and get you some ice cream and ***KALE***!

But I do appreciate that you would say "Hello" to the ice cream.

Kale flavored ice cream. We have now found the answer to the eternal question, "What is the ideal ice cream flavor to eat with pickles?"
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- Kurt 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  Kale flavored ice cream. We have now found the answer to the eternal question, "What is the ideal ice cream flavor to eat with pickles?"
  
  Why would seasoned want to eat ice cream and kale with Buddy's (Morey Amsterdam) wife on the Dick Van Dyke Show?
  
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  Claude Whitacre 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kurt
  
  Why would seasoned want to eat ice cream and kale with Buddy's (Morey Amsterdam) wife on the Dick Van Dyke Show?
  
  Obviously, Seasoned killed Morey Amsterdam.
  
  And in his madness, bought her a bouquet of Kale, to try to seal the deal. The ice cream is just to get the kale taste out of their mouths....before the smooching and heavy petting.
  
  Don't you know anything about romance?
  
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Dan Riffle

11 years ago

This thread has gone completely off the rails. I just want it noted that I had nothing to do with it.

Vaccines.

There. I said it. Back on track now.

P.S.: Joe, do I get my congratulatory pat on the head now?

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

This thread has gone completely off the rails. I just want it noted that I had nothing to do with it.

Vaccines.

There. I said it. Back on track now.

P.S.: Joe, do I get my congratulatory pat on the head now?

I really should pat you on the top of your head...I see it often enough.

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I eat broccoli rabe almost every day. That said, I wouldn't eat kale with someone else's mouth.

If I'm going to eat red cabbage it has to be with schnitzel and fried potatoes.

Cheers. - Frank

The last time I stuck my schnitzel in some fried potatoes, I screamed for an hour....and then did it again.

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BigFrank Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

The last time I stuck my schnitzel in some fried potatoes, I screamed for an hour....and then did it again.

. . . and again, and again, and again, and again.

Take a break. That schnitzel ain't goin' anywhere.

Cheers. - Frank
- Thanks
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Cali16 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

This thread has gone completely off the rails.

Off the rails and clear over a cliff.... and landed in someone's vegetable garden!
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seasoned

11 years ago

What is with all this hatred about KALE? It is a nice cruciferous vegetable. AND, though I am not generally to have green things, I have made sure that, LEFT TO MY OWN DEVICES(Which is DENIED IN HOSPITALS, BTW), I CAN take such things. You want to know HOW I am not left to my own devices? OK, I can NOT test, and had to wait a couple WEEKS to get approval to even take a MAGNESIUM supplement!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, outside of the current dosing, for the CURRENT DIET, I can have NO warfarin! That means that I run the risk of having a stroke BEFORE any preparation! YEAH, when I report my test results, they are careful to ask if I changed my diet, but HOSPITALS INSIST on changing your diet without testing!

ANYWAY, back to the CRUX of this thread. PLEASE WATCH! Although it alludes to the ARTIFICIALLY induced politics, it IS unbiased, etc... WATCH the whole:

Measles Outbreak Highlights Liberal Science...

Steve

Thanks
2 replies

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TimPhelan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

PLEASE WATCH! Since it alludes to the ARTIFICIALLY induced politics, it IS unbiased, etc... WATCH the whole:

Measles Outbreak Highlights Liberal Science Stupidity | PJTV - YouTube

Steve

Biggest bunch of crap I have seen in a while. And that's saying a LOT!!!!!!!!!

Thanks
2 replies

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Over 50 Dating

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Biggest bunch of crap I have seen in a while. And that's saying a LOT!!!!!!!!!

Well, I misspoke. I meant to say that ALTHOUGH it relates to the artificial politics, it is unbiased. It makes a good case for, and against vaccinating, and speaks of the REAL arguments. But PLEASE, expound on any other "crap" you want! Was it the idea of artificially making all appear alike? Was it the idea of government reaching too far? Was it about the arguments of vaccinations on either side? They HAVE saved many lives, and they HAVE killed people. The warnings that are on the package, THAT MOST NEVER SEE OR ARE EVEN TOLD ABOUT, CLEARLY allude to the dangers! If you doubt that, simply go to a pharmacist selling vaccinations, and ask to have a copy. They ARE required, in the US, to allow you to have it. They are SUPPOSED TO give it to you, but usually DON'T!

HECK, if you buy a mutual fund in the US, they are REQUIRED to give you a prospectus! They even have you sign a document stating it was offered and you read it.(Few read what they are signing) But they often DON'T! LATER, you are supposed to be given updates, but THOSE are often by the fund, and ARE given. IMAGINE if Bernard Madoff gave a valid prospectus! That ONE requirement would have revealed the problem sooner, etc....

Steve
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- 1 reply
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- sbucciarel Banned 11 years ago
  
  I like Spinach. That's my favorite... and Welcome Ice Cream.
  
  [ 2 ] Thanks
  
  3 replies
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9878430].message }}
  
  Midnight Oil 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  I like Spinach. That's my favorite
  
  I've never been fond of spinach. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-spinacite and would never intentionally say anything hurtful towards it. I just choose not to be around it.
  
  [ 1 ] Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9878481].message }}
  
  Claude Whitacre 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  I like Spinach. That's my favorite... and Welcome Ice Cream.
  
  If you like it so much, why don't you marry it?
  
  (I don't know how to talk around girls)
  
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  butters 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  I like Spinach. That's my favorite... and Welcome Ice Cream.
  
  [ 1 ] Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9878779].message }}
SteveJohnson 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Biggest bunch of crap I have seen in a while. And that's saying a LOT!!!!!!!!!

At least since the last state of the union address, huh.
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- seasoned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson
  
  At least since the last state of the union address, huh.
  
  And don't forget the "prayer breakfast"! He should have been KICKED OUT!
  
  Steve
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  TLTheLiberator 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by seasoned
  
  And don't forget the "prayer breakfast"! He should have been KICKED OUT!
  
  Steve
  
  Just for reminding them that christians have done a whole lot of killing and other not too nice things in the name of their lord also?
  
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  "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain
  
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- TimPhelan 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson
  
  At least since the last state of the union address, huh.
  
  Did you watch it Steve? I mean the video, not the SOTU? It could easily pass as a satire piece by The Onion, but it's not satire, which makes it funnier.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  Over 50 Dating
  
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Midnight Oil

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

What is with all this hatred about KALE? It is a nice cruciferous vegetable.

It may be nice, but it isn't sexy.

Red cabbage . . . now that's some sexy cruciferae.

Thanks
2 replies

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

It may be nice, but it isn't sexy.

Red cabbage . . . now that's some sexy cruciferae.

OK, but KALE seems to be the one having most related benefits, so I said "nice". ALSO, I have been hearing people say a lot of nasty things about KALE! Nothing specific, simply belittling it. But I suppose red cabbage ALSO gets defamed.

Steve

[ 1 ] Thanks
2 replies

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Kurt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Obviously, Seasoned killed Morey Amsterdam.

And in his madness, bought her a bouquet of Kale, to try to seal the deal. The ice cream is just to get the kale taste out of their mouths....before the smooching and heavy petting.

Don't you know anything about romance?

Originally Posted by seasoned

What is with all this hatred about KALE? It is a nice cruciferous vegetable. AND, though I am not generally to have green things, I have made sure that, LEFT TO MY OWN DEVICES(Which is DENIED IN HOSPITALS, BTW), I CAN take such things. You want to know HOW I am not left to my own devices? OK, I can NOT test, and had to wait a couple WEEKS to get approval to even take a MAGNESIUM supplement!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, outside of the current dosing, for the CURRENT DIET, I can have NO warfarin! That means that I run the risk of having a stroke BEFORE any preparation! YEAH, when I report my test results, they are careful to ask if I changed my diet, but HOSPITALS INSIST on changing your diet without testing!

ANYWAY, back to the CRUX of this thread. PLEASE WATCH! Since it alludes to the ARTIFICIALLY induced politics, it IS unbiased, etc... WATCH the whole:

Measles Outbreak Highlights Liberal Science Stupidity | PJTV - YouTube

Steve

Apparently, seasoned has found a way to over-come the romance issue.

BTW, maybe some eat kale to get rid of the ice cream flavor???

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Apparently, seasoned has found a way to over-come the romance issue.

BTW, maybe some eat kale to get rid of the ice cream flavor???

VERY FUNNY! I MEANT I have a device to check my INR and a supply of warfarin and NORMALLY can handle such changes MYSELF! In the hospital that is restricted, etc....

Steve
- Thanks
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Midnight Oil 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

ALSO, I have been hearing people say a lot of nasty things about KALE! Nothing specific, simply belittling it.

Haters gonna hate. People don't understand, or just don't care, how their words can hurt.

Originally Posted by seasoned

But I suppose red cabbage ALSO gets defamed.

That's a shame. If I see it happening here, rest assured, I'll report it. I hope others will do the same.
- [ 4 ] Thanks
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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

It may be nice, but it isn't sexy.

Red cabbage . . . now that's some sexy cruciferae.

I eat broccoli rabe almost every day. That said, I wouldn't eat kale with someone else's mouth.

If I'm going to eat red cabbage it has to be with schnitzel and fried potatoes.

Cheers. - Frank

[ 1 ] Thanks
2 replies

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Dan Riffle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

That said, I wouldn't eat kale with someone else's mouth.

My guess is you aren't massaging your kale, Frank. You gotta give your kale a nice rubdown before eating it. Doing so release the oils, making the kale not only taste better, but considerably more frisky.

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BigFrank

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

My guess is you aren't massaging your kale, Frank. You gotta give your kale a nice rubdown before eating it. Doing so release the oils, making the kale not only taste better, but considerably more frisky.

Trust me, my kale is very well massaged and as frisky as can be. I simply choose to refer to it with a term more befitting its majestic splendor - "Spud."

Cheers. - Frank

[ 1 ] Thanks

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I eat broccoli rabe almost every day.

You look very well on it, Frank, but I'm surprised not to see a little bit more color in your beard.
- Thanks
- 1 reply
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- BigFrank Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith
  
  You look very well on it, Frank, but I'm surprised not to see a little bit more color in your beard.
  
  Thanks, but at my age, white is all I got. :-(
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  discrat 11 years ago
  
  Frank ,
  Can you tell that Monkey of yours that Christmas is over with
  
  Thanks
  
  2 replies
  
  Signature
  
  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9878607].message }}
  
  BigFrank Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Frank ,
  Can you tell that Monkey of yours that Christmas is over with
  
  I am the manifestation of Christmas, 24/7 - 365!
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  [ 1 ] Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9878618].message }}
  
  Claude Whitacre 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by discrat
  
  Frank ,
  Can you tell that Monkey of yours that Christmas is over with
  
  That's actually Frank. I made the same mistake. He's lost weight.
  
  He looks ..Great. Right?
  
  [ 3 ] Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  discrat 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  That's actually Frank. I made the same mistake. He's lost weight.
  
  He looks ..Great. Right?
  
  Wow, Frank.
  Nice.
  And I thought it was the women, drugs, and rock n roll
  You look a little bit like Roger Daltrey in that picture to be frank ( no pun intended)
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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Should US Citizens have the right to opt-out of MMR vaccinations?

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