Do You "Smoke" Electronic Cigarettes? You Might Want to Read This...

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I know many of you use e-cigs. I'm guessing many do so because they believe them to be safer than tobacco cigarettes. They may actually be worse for you.

I'm not criticizing your choices. I'm simply posting this because I'd want to know it if I used them...and because I like you.

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Hmmm, smoked since I was sixteen, switched to e-cigs at 55, three years and counting now, no smokers cough, shortness of breath. Insurance policy for work knocked off 360 bucks a year in payment due to me giving up Tobacco products.

I vape menthol flavors but also peppermint. this is my personal experience.

That aside, it has to be ascertained what amount/concentration of this substance it requires to do real harm. Many things can hurt you if taken in large amounts and these are people working in factories and taking in huge gulps of it. I would think they could quickly find a substitute too if it was just a flavoring .

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stjong 7 years ago

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seasoned

9 years ago

WOW, they don't even talk about things like POPCORN!!!!!

Steve

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tryinhere

9 years ago

And now, diacetyl has quietly seeped into other products, this time being inhaled straight into the lungs of a growing number of consumers as they smoke or "vape" e-cigarettes.

This is so yesterdays news and hype probably poked out the by big pharma and or big T, Diacetyl has not been used and or is not used by many ejuice and flavor makers / and or it disclosed these days up front, but again you would be hard pushed to find any ejuice maker using this or similar in their ejuice.

and unknowingly inhale toxic and potentially fatal fumes.

Yes these people need to inhale cigarette smoke its better for big T and Pharma Pockets

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW, they don't even talk about things like POPCORN!!!!!

Steve

Yes Steve, popcorn, coffee, and other foods were mentioned. It's a long article.

Originally Posted by tryinhere

This is so yesterdays news and hype probably poked out the by big pharma and or big T, Diacetyl has not been used and or is not used by many ejuice and flavor makers / and or it disclosed these days up front, but again you would be hard pushed to find any ejuice maker using this or similar in their ejuice.

Yesterdays news? Maybe, but it's the first I've heard of it and thought it was important enough to inform my OT pals. The article said about 70% of the ecigs tested had this diacetyl in them, including ones that were promoted as being diacetyl-free.

I don't use ecigs, so I'm not looking into it any more than I have in reading that article, which only caught my attention because there have been threads about ecigs in the OT in the past. Folks that it matters to can do their own research.

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tryinhere

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Yesterdays news? Maybe, but it's the first I've heard of it and thought it was important enough to inform my OT pals. .

Low stress all is good (did not mean to come across like that / used to sell juice and been / still in this for a long time), there are so many polar arguments from both sides it gets confusing at times.

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Low stress all is good (did not mean to come across like that / used to sell juice and been / still in this for a long time), there are so many polar arguments from both sides it gets confusing at times.

You're fine, Pete. I just took your post in a "matter of fact" way and responded in (what I thought was) a similar way.

By the way, you probably know this already, too, but there's another name for that chemical, butanedione, so they could be hiding it from some that way.

By the way again, I could see this being hyped by the tobacco industry as you said, but I could also see it being suppressed by those with financial interests in using it. I'm not very trusting of industry or gov't agencies like the FDA these days.

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ThomM

9 years ago

As many as 70% of sweet-flavored e-cigs contain diacetyl,

Like Ian and John when I hit the e-cig I don't go for the sweet flavors. It also matters where the e-liquid is made. From what I've read the ones from China are the ones with the most crap in them. The e-liquids I get are all made in the U.S, you can also buy the ingredients separately and mix your own.

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Like Ian and John when I hit the e-cig I don't go for the sweet flavors. It also matters where the e-liquid is made. From what I've read the ones from China are the ones with the most crap in them. The e-liquids I get are all made in the U.S, you can also buy the ingredients separately and mix your own.

I think that given time, it will be possible to alter the make up of the propellant to get the smoke effect and the flavoring down to something that will not be thought of as remotely harmful or at least in such small quantities as to be irrelevant health wise. That means just the nicotine is left. The most important thing that gives us the buzz and the main addiction.

So, will they then go after nicotine? Oh, then real cigs will have to be banned.

Yep, I'm sure this article will be endorsed by the ever increasingly concerned tobacco industry as this safer alternative eats into their profits. Perhaps they should switch to making it themselves and make it as safe as poss. If you cant beat them, join them..

Anyone died from conventional cigs as yet, yes, millions. Anyone died from e-cigs yet? Ok, perhaps too early to pontificate on.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

I think that given time, it will be possible to alter the make up of the propellant to get the smoke effect and the flavoring down to something that will not be thought of as remotely harmful or at least in such small quantities as to be irrelevant health wise. That means just the nicotine is left. The most important thing that gives us the buzz and the main addiction.

So, will they then go after nicotine? Oh, then real cigs will have to be banned.

Yep, I'm sure this article will be endorsed by the ever increasingly concerned tobacco industry as this safer alternative eats into their profits. Perhaps they should switch to making it themselves and make it as safe as poss. If you cant beat them, join them..

Anyone died from conventional cigs as yet, yes, millions. Anyone died from e-cigs yet? Ok, perhaps too early to pontificate on.

They are joining them

One of the e-cigs I have is a Vuse. It's made by R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company.

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John Durham

9 years ago

I have been on ecigs for almost a year now, and have only seen health benefits from it... Have ZERO need to smoke a cig now, haven't needed one since the day I started... They have been somewhat miraculous. Will read the article though. Thanks Dennis.

Edit: Ok, cool. I don't do the sweet kind.

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MikeAmbrosio

9 years ago

For me, it was simpler to just quit smoking - not substitute with anything. But I am one of the lucky ones. Cold turkey worked for me. No patches, gum, e-cigs, etc. I did chew on those plastic coffee stirrers for a couple of months though...

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Karen Blundell

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

For me, it was simpler to just quit smoking - not substitute with anything. But I am one of the lucky ones. Cold turkey worked for me. No patches, gum, e-cigs, etc. I did chew on those plastic coffee stirrers for a couple of months though...

yup, I did the same - it's been almost 8 years now - mind you, it took me several attempts before I was able to break the addiction completely - but as of August 27, 2007 - I finally was able to end a 40 year addiction.

some of those e-cigs smell wonderfully like candy though - making me think that there are in fact chemicals in the juice that are probably not the best for you

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ThomM 9 years ago

some of those e-cigs smell wonderfully like candy though - making me think that there are in fact chemicals in the juice that are probably not the best for you

I have friends that have never smoked tell me the same thing.
Not that they smelled like candy, but that they smelled good. They also said that the vapor didn't remind them in any way of second hand smoke.
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Well, you couldn't trust the tobacco companies not to put dangerous chemicals into real cigarettes and I wouldn't trust them not to put them into ecigs.

Quite simply, I mix my own and I know exactly what is in it, and it ain't diacetyl or any other chemical. The movement to vaping began long before the tobacco companies jumped on ship and many people buy their personal vaporizers, ecigs, parts and liquids from online vape shops.

Since I started using them, I don't smoke anymore, a habit I'd had since I was 16. I also don't cough anymore and I'm not short of breath anymore.

But I would never buy an ecig product from R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company.

My liquids contain:
Propylene Glycol 100% pharmaceutical grade (used as the propellant)
OR VG (vegetable glycerin) if you prefer less of the sensation of smoking (throat hit)
OR, most commonly, a mixture of both PG and VG
PLUS water
PLUS nicotine
PLUS flavoring (natural)

Propylene Glycol has long been used in pharmaceutical and other products, including:
Pharmaceuticals – Oral, injectable and topical formulations
Beauty products including makeup, mousse, shampoo, bubble bath, after shave, and deodorant
baby wipes
Pet food
Asthma inhalers
Coffee
Ice Cream
Whipped Dairy Products
Beer
Soda

Propylene glycol is used as an humectant (E1520), solvent, and preservative in food and for tobacco products, as well as being one of the major ingredients of the "e-liquid" used in electronic cigarettes along with vegetable glycerin. Propene glycol is also used in various edible items such as coffee, ice cream, whipped dairy products, beer and soda.[7] Vaporizers used for delivery of pharmaceuticals or personal care products often include propylene glycol among the ingredients they are filled with.[4] Propylene glycol is used as a solvent in many pharmaceuticals, including oral, injectable and topical formulations, such as for diazepam and lorazepam which are insoluble in water.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Well, you couldn't trust the tobacco companies not to put dangerous chemicals into real cigarettes and I wouldn't trust them not to put them into ecigs.

I got it out of curiosity, took 2 hits and put it in the drawer. Absolutely the worst tasting piece of crap out of all the different e-cigs and e-liquid flavors I've tried.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I got it out of curiosity, took 2 hits and put it in the drawer. Absolutely the worst tasting piece of crap out of all the different e-cigs and e-liquid flavors I've tried.

I was curious about it, so glad that you've confirmed what I suspected.

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HeySal

9 years ago

Popcorn - coffee
If it's not organic, I don't touch it. They use some pretty nasty pesticides in coffee and I don't trust any form of corn not to be Monsanto if it's not organic. One thing that really makes my teeth clench is watching someone eat mircrowaved popcorn. It's probably one of the worst foods for all sorts of chemicals that you can eat - from the bag to the chemical stew they use as "butter".

Nicotine has uses. A lot of asthmatics smoke because the nicotine keeps the lungs from spasming. People with tight nervous systems benefit from nicotine, too. Is it addictive? Yes. Is it all that harmful on its own, though? Check this out. Being a smoker, I've researched this down hard.

Almost 2/3 of men in Japan smoke. There is almost no correlation between smoking and lung cancer in that country. In other countries the correlation varies from country to country. Why? If cigarettes are deadly on their own, why do deaths that correlate to smoking vary so much country to country?

Well, for one - the amount of deaths from smoking do correlate directly to the amount of additives in the cigarettes in that country. In the US there are up to 33% additives and we are sick. Of course around 60% of people in the US that get lung cancer don't, and most have never, smoked. So why are these people getting lung cancer? Maybe we should be asking more questions about that, ya think? While it is true that one out of three people that smoke get lung cancer -- one out of three people get some form of cancer or another - and the stats are moving toward one in two. So what does this say? Maybe that we should be more worried about the chemicals that are dumped into everything we touch than about tobacco itself?

Don't take me wrong, I'm not defending smoking as harmless, just saying that statistics point to our real enemy being the chemical stew that's being dumped everywhere - in our food, on our environment, and in our smokes.

As far as E-cigs, if I ever need to resort to those, I'll be one of the cold turkey people who just doesn't smoke.

BTW, Dennis - the name of the chemical can be misleading because as soon as consumers figure out it's poison and stop buying things containing the chemical, they just change the name. Aspartame, is now Amino Sweet. Sounds almost healthy, doesn't it?

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Alexa Smith

Banned 9 years ago

Eew, don't tell me I'm not allowed to smoke popcorn any more? What else is going to get me through these long Off Topic threads?

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HeySal 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Eew, don't tell me I'm not allowed to smoke popcorn any more? What else is going to get me through these long Off Topic threads?

Relax - if it's organic with real butter, I would say you can probably still smoke it. You wouldn't believe some stuff I smoked when I was stranded in the wilderness and ran out of cigarettes - of course, in wilderness areas everything is organic. One thing I found out is that it's all equally satisfying to smoke, too, if you're a smoker.
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bizgrower 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Eew, don't tell me I'm not allowed to smoke popcorn any more? What else is going to get me through these long Off Topic threads?

Cauliflower soup! duh
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whateverpedia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Eew, don't tell me I'm not allowed to smoke popcorn any more? What else is going to get me through these long Off Topic threads?

Have you tried snorting it?

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discrat

9 years ago

Honestly, smoking is one of the vices humans have that I will never understand.

Don't get me wrong, when I was younger and a partier I would drink and go out and smoke socially while I was getting a buzz.

But to continue Smoking after a night of drinking and making it a regular part of my Life always stumped me.

I know this sounds weird and Iam being honest but I could always understand people shooting up heroin, snorting coke, huffing gas, sniffing glue, drinking coffee, gambling, sex addiction etc.etc( even though most of those things I never would do nor want to do) .. but just never could wrap my brain around the allure of getting up in the morning and wanting to stick one of those things in my mouth and puff away.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Honestly, smoking is one of the vices humans have that I will have just never understood.

Oh yeah, when I was younger and a partier I would drink and go out and smoke socially while I was getting a buzz.

But to continue Smoking after a night of drinking and making it a regular part of my Life always stumped me.

I know this sounds weird and Iam being honest but I could always understand people shooting up heroin, snorting coke, huffing gas, sniffing glue, drinking coffee, gambling, sex addiction etc.etc( even though most for those things I never would do) e.. but just never could wrap my brain around smoking on just a regular day just for the sake of smoking

Then you're one of the lucky ones with a strong resistance to nicotine. It took me many years to break the chain. The funny thing was I hated smoking, but I hated even more the brain itch that came with not smoking.

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Then you're one of the lucky ones with a strong resistance to nicotine. It took me many years to break the chain. The funny thing was I hated smoking, but I hated even more the brain itch that came with not smoking.

And this is the "secret" to quitting, IMO. If you don't convince yourself that you absolutely hate smoking, you'll never quit. Just wanting to isn't enough.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Honestly, smoking is one of the vices humans have that I will never understand.

Don't get me wrong, when I was younger and a partier I would drink and go out and smoke socially while I was getting a buzz.

But to continue Smoking after a night of drinking and making it a regular part of my Life always stumped me.

I know this sounds weird and Iam being honest but I could always understand people shooting up heroin, snorting coke, huffing gas, sniffing glue, drinking coffee, gambling, sex addiction etc.etc( even though most of those things I never would do nor want to do) .. but just never could wrap my brain around the allure of getting up in the morning and wanting to stick one of those things in my mouth and puff away.

To "understand" the use of all those hard drugs, but not understand an addiction to nicotine ... now that I don't understand.

I gave up alcohol and drugs well over 20some years ago. I have coffee and "smoking" left and hold on to those addictions with all my might. I enjoy "smoking". I love it actually. I don't love the chemicals in real cigarettes and the prospect of lung cancer, so now I love vaping instead of smoking. It's so close to it and just as satisfying. I have no intentions of quitting. I've done my fair share of quitting.

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discrat

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

To "understand" the use of all those hard drugs, but not understand an addiction to nicotine ... now that I don't understand.

I guess cause I always thought of Nicotine as more of a 'passive' type drug with not real intense physical effects like say Heron or Cocaine.

Probably just ignorance on my part. I never understood coffee and caffeine until I started drinking Mcdonalds Ice Tea two years ago.

Then all of the sudden I said to myself, ' Oh I see, okay now I understand why people drink a lot of
coffee. This sh@t is awesome

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I guess cause I always thought of Nicotine as more of a 'passive' type drug with not real intense physical effects like say Heron or Cocaine.

Probably just ignorance on my part. I never understood coffee and caffeine until I started drinking Mcdonalds Ice Tea two years ago.

Then all of the sudden I said to myself, ' Oh I see, okay now I understand why people drink a lot of
coffee. This sh@t is awesome

Many smokers smoke more when they feel stressed and feel that it relieves stress. I'm one of those. The catch 22 of the whole nicotine addiction thing is that nicotine withdrawal makes you feel stressed and anxious, so quitting smoking causes a great deal of stress. That only makes smokers want to smoke more, in addition to satisfying the addiction to nicotine.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I guess cause I always thought of Nicotine as more of a 'passive' type drug with not real intense physical effects like say Heron or Cocaine.

Probably just ignorance on my part. I never understood coffee and caffeine until I started drinking Mcdonalds Ice Tea two years ago.

Then all of the sudden I said to myself, ' Oh I see, okay now I understand why people drink a lot of
coffee. This sh@t is awesome

I can definitely see what you're saying. I used to think I needed a smoke to calm down from my stress. It always seemed to do the trick, right? What I figured out - because I'm like Einstein or something <sarcastic smilie> - was that I needed to smoke to ease the stress that came from not smoking! Smoking wasn't calming any external stress. It was simply calming it's own self-created stress.

A few ecigs later, with the help from a particularly rough couple of weeks from the flu, and I've been set.

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I can definitely see what you're saying. I used to think I need a smoke to calm down from my stress. It always seemed to do the trick, right? What I figured out - because I'm like Einstein or something <sarcastic smilie> - was that I needed to smoke to ease the stress that came from not smoking! Smoking wasn't calming any external stress. It was simply calming it's own self-created stress.

A few ecigs later, with the help from a particularly rough couple of weeks from the flu, and I've been set.

I was smoking 3 1/2 packs a day when I quit. I read this tip in a pack of generic nicotine gum and consider it the "secret" to helping me quit.

The tip was, when I felt an urge to smoke that urge would soon go away whether I smoked a cigarette or if I didn't. So I decided to test it out. And you know what? They were right. It didn't matter if I smoked or not, the urge went away after a short time. So I learned I didn't need to smoke to take care of the urge.

It was that tip, and a lot of chewing gum, that helped make me an ex smoker.

BTW, it's been about 12 years and I still have an urge to smoke when I'm driving on a long road trip. I will still subconsciously reach for my chest pocket once in a while, as if I had a pack of cigs in it.

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discrat 9 years ago

Kurt,
You sure do not look like you have smoked a whole lot.
With your flawless skin, hair etc..etc.
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ThomM

9 years ago

BTW, it's been about 12 years and I still have an urge to smoke when I'm driving on a long road trip. I will still subconsciously reach for my chest pocket once in a while, as if I had a pack of cigs in it.

That's something that I think many who haven't smoked don't understand. There are many other habits you pick up that are caused by smoking that can hinder you from quitting or at least make it harder to quit.

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

I was smoking 3 1/2 packs a day when I quit. I read this tip in a pack of generic nicotine gum and consider it the "secret" to helping me quit.

The tip was, when I felt an urge to smoke that urge would soon go away whether I smoked a cigarette or if I didn't. So I decided to test it out. And you know what? They were right. It didn't matter if I smoked or not, the urge went away after a short time. So I learned I didn't need to smoke to take care of the urge.

It was that tip, and a lot of chewing gum, that helped make me an ex smoker.

BTW, it's been about 12 years and I still have an urge to smoke when I'm driving on a long road trip. I will still subconsciously reach for my chest pocket once in a while, as if I had a pack of cigs in it.

I'm not sure where I read that, may have been the Allen Carr book which incidentally I've read twice but never finished.

I haven't smoked since May and yesterday I forgot to bring my Ecig with me. Several times during the day I had the urge to have a vape, followed by a slight annoyance it wasn't there, followed moments later with no feeling at all.

I actually left it at home on purpose today.

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I'm not sure where I read that, may have been the Allen Carr book which incidentally I've read twice but never finished.

I haven't smoked since May and yesterday I forgot to bring my Ecig with me. Several times during the day I had the urge to have a vape, followed by a slight annoyance it wasn't there, followed moments later with no feeling at all.

I actually left it at home on purpose today.

That's great Richard!

It's true that you will have urges to vape whether you do or don't. And it's true those urges will go away, whether you vape or not.

Now, it's just training you brain to accept the truth.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I guess cause I always thought of Nicotine as more of a 'passive' type drug with not real intense physical effects like say Heron or Cocaine.

Probably just ignorance on my part. I never understood coffee and caffeine until I started drinking Mcdonalds Ice Tea two years ago.

Then all of the sudden I said to myself, ' Oh I see, okay now I understand why people drink a lot of
coffee. This sh@t is awesome

Here's more info on the psychoactive effects of nicotine on the brain. While not as dramatic as drugs used to get high, those effects are pretty powerful and make smokers feel like smoking makes them feel better than not smoking.

Psychoactive effects
Further information: Psychoactive drug
Nicotine image

Nicotine's mood-altering effects are different by report: in particular it is both a stimulant and a relaxant.[24] First causing a release of glucose from the liver and epinephrine (adrenaline) from the adrenal medulla, it causes stimulation. Users report feelings of relaxation, sharpness, calmness, and alertness.[25] Like any stimulant, it may very rarely cause the often uncomfortable neuropsychiatric effect of akathisia. By reducing the appetite and raising the metabolism, some smokers may lose weight as a consequence.[26][27]

When a cigarette is smoked, nicotine-rich blood passes from the lungs to the brain within seven seconds and immediately stimulates the release of many chemical messengers such as acetylcholine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, arginine vasopressin, serotonin, dopamine, and beta-endorphin. This release of neurotransmitters and hormones is responsible for most of nicotine's psychoactive effects. Nicotine appears to enhance concentration and memory due to the increase of acetylcholine. It also appears to enhance alertness due to the increases of acetylcholine and norepinephrine. Arousal is increased by the increase of norepinephrine. Pain is reduced by the increases of acetylcholine and beta-endorphin. Anxiety is reduced by the increase of beta-endorphin. Nicotine also extends the duration of positive effects of dopamine and increases sensitivity in brain reward systems. Most cigarettes (in the smoke inhaled) contain 1 to 3 milligrams of nicotine.

Research suggests that, when smokers wish to achieve a stimulating effect, they take short quick puffs, which produce a low level of blood nicotine. This stimulates nerve transmission. When they wish to relax, they take deep puffs, which produce a higher level of blood nicotine, which depresses the passage of nerve impulses, producing a mild sedative effect. At low doses, nicotine potently enhances the actions of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain, causing a drug effect typical of those of psychostimulants. At higher doses, nicotine enhances the effect of serotonin and opiate activity, producing a calming, pain-killing effect. Nicotine is unique in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative/pain killer in increasing dosages and use, a phenomenon described by Paul Nesbitt in his doctoral dissertation and subsequently referred to as "Nesbitt's Paradox".

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WalkingCarpet

Banned 9 years ago

Its high time they ban tobacco altogether. Make it illegal.
Imagine the pain and suffering and death that would alleviate.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

Its high time they ban tobacco altogether. Make it illegal.
Imagine the pain and suffering and death that would alleviate.

How ? By making it more of a black market item then it already is?
A little history for you. Here we banned Alcohol back in the 20's and that brought us gangsters and things like the Valentines day massacre. Then when that didn't work we banned Cannabis and other "drugs". That brought us drug cartels and more murders.
If anything history has shown us that banning those types of things leads to more pain, suffering, and death.

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Hi Dennis, please don't think this response is aimed at you but more the anti vaping propaganda movement I've noticed for a long time.

In Britain over 2.5 million people have started vaping to quit ciggys. If each of those people spent £5 a day on a packet of cigs, which is far lower than they cost, you get a small picture of how much money the British government loses out on today to the vaping industry. It makes sense that while it's not 100% regulated that they at least try and convince most of the current smokers to keep on smoking because vaping is worse for your health. Apparently...

Interesting is the nonsense on Diacetyl. Well, not nonsense just the bits missed out.

That article is talking about sweet flavoured eliquid like custards, creams and all those dessert types ONLY. That is a small part of the market.

In fact the study doesn't even mention how they tested it and I know from other the studies the higher you heat the coil and the higher temperatures you use to produce the vapour, the more diacetyl is produced in sweet flavours. I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned, it could have been anything and if they'd tested different temperatures, they'd have got differing levels of results.

Didn't mention cigarettes either. Why didn't they mention cigarettes?

The study found that 74.2% of the samples contained either diacetyl or acetyl propionyl, with more samples containing diacetyl. The levels were on average slightly lower than currently-established safety limits (set by NIOSH), but more than 40% of the samples had higher than safety levels. Of note, the highest amount of diacetyl found was 495 times higher than safety limits, while for acetyl propionyl it was 22 times higher. Tobacco cigarettes smoke contains both compounds, at levels 100 times higher for diacetyl and 10 times higher for acetyl propionyl compared to e-cigarette average daily exposure.

Source - A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk

Note both articles link to the same study.

The study is also only concerned with those sweet flavours which I avoid like the plague anyway.

It always fascinates me though. Last week I read about a study where they forced mice to breath in E cigs and lo and behold they found it wasn't entirely safe. They also found it wasn't safe to stand around a barbecue and inhale the smoke, or pour bleach down the toilet or open your car window while driving through a city on a hot day. Not a lot is 100% safe.

The thing is though, seeing as there are 2.5 million vapers here and more turning everyday, why don't they just test the difference a long term smoker feels and their all round health having stopped smoking by vaping instead?

I know, ground breaking idea isn't it?

That would actually prove something instead of reports about how coffee and ecigs have something in them that is also in real cigarettes in much higher amounts, along with numerous other ludicrous chemicals.

Still, if they can keep people on those cigarettes, at least they won't keep losing money.

Just for further reference, here's a snap shot of the hundreds of chemicals in traditional ciggys, literally a snap shot and that's before you set fire to it and inhale the combusted stuff into your lungs.

Some cancer-causing chemicals in tobacco smoke and their other common uses
Tar - a mixture of dangerous chemicals
Arsenic - used in wood preservatives
Benzene - an industrial solvent, refined from crude oil
Cadmium - used in batteries
Formaldehyde - used in mortuaries and paint manufacturing
Polonium-210 - a highly radioactive element
Chromium - used to manufacture dye, paints and alloys
1,3-Butadiene - used in rubber manufacturing
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons - a group of dangerous DNA-damaging chemicals
Tobacco-specific nitrosamines - a group of carcinogens only found in tobacco
Acrolein - used as a chemical weapon in World War 1 - and acetaldehyde - used in the industrial production of acid
Other chemicals in cigarette smoke
Nicotine – highly addictive
Hydrogen cyanide - used as an industrial pesticide
Carbon monoxide - found in car exhausts and used in chemicals manufacturing
Nitrogen oxides - a major component of smog
Ammonia - used to make fertilisers and explosives
And many more

Smoking and cancer: What's in a cigarette? : Cancer Research UK

Over the last year I have read almost an article a week on the dangers of vaping, all backed up with shady evidence or key points conveniently missing. I've been told by one person with a cig in his mouth that I shouldn't vape because he'd read in the paper it was bad for you.

These articles do wonders for the cigarette industry and the governments who rely so heavily on the enormous taxes they make from the sale of cigarettes.

Dennis, none of this was intended as a rebuttal to you, more my annoyance at the propaganda that keeps smokers smoking. I appreciate what you did was done with the goodness of your heart as you know people here vape and I thank you for that.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Last week I read about a study where they forced mice to breath in E cigs and lo and behold they found it wasn't entirely safe.

Richard, that reminded me of a study done in the 70's that "proved" smoking cannabis killed brain cells.
The study was done by a Dr. Heath at Tulane University. What he did was attach air proof masks on some monkeys and then pumped massive amounts of cannabis smoke into the masks for around 15 minutes. When he killed the monkeys he discovered they had more dead brain cells then the control monkeys who where allowed to just breath. From that he deduced that smoking cannabis kills brain cells, like the lack of oxygen had nothing to do with it

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Richard, that reminded me of a study done in the 70's that "proved" smoking cannabis killed brain cells.
The study was done by a Dr. Heath at Tulane University. What he did was attach air proof masks on some monkeys and then pumped massive amounts of cannabis smoke into the masks for around 15 minutes. When he killed the monkeys he discovered they had more dead brain cells then the control monkeys who where allowed to just breath. From that he deduced that smoking cannabis kills brain cells, like the lack of oxygen had nothing to do with it

I'm a psych major. I thought they had more ethical protocols in the 70's. But, sure enough:

Chapter 15: Brain Damage Reports

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lanfear63

9 years ago

Breaking. News, Nearly all the health districts in Scotland are banning the smoking of cigs and vaping e-cigs outside their hospital buildings in the designated areas. They want it smoke free!

E-Cigs don't produce real smoke last time I looked, mainly water vapour. It's rather like being around a kettle thats recently boiled and just a few bits of water vapour is still coming out and it usually smells nice. Their is no secondary smoking problems with them. The only substance to hit the air in tiny microscopic amounts is Nicotine.

Well I expect you can smoke them inside... Right?

BBC News - E-cigarettes to be banned from Scotland hospital grounds

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Breaking. News, Nearly all the health districts in Scotland are banning the smoking of cigs and vaping e-cigs outside their hospital buildings in the designated areas. They want it smoke free!

E-Cigs don't produce real smoke last time I looked, mainly water vapour. It's rather like being around a kettle thats recently boiled and just a few bits of water vapour is still coming out and it usually smells nice. Their is no secondary smoking problems with them. The only substance to hit the air in tiny microscopic amounts is Nicotine.

Well I expect you can smoke them inside... Right?

BBC News - E-cigarettes to be banned from Scotland hospital grounds

This does make me think I should try to prohibit them in my hotel rooms. I've had some regular customers use these things inside without asking. All my rooms are non-smoking. People can courteously smoke tobacco products outside. Even though in Colorado, we are pot free and will probably always be unless revenues get really bad. (Becoming pot friendly has turned some hotels around.)

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

This does make me think I should try to prohibit them in my hotel rooms. I've had some regular customers use these things inside without asking. All my rooms are non-smoking. People can courteously smoke tobacco products outside. Even though in Colorado, we are pot free and will probably always be unless revenues get really bad. (Becoming pot friendly has turned some hotels around.)

Can you tell when they vaped an e-cig in a room?
The reason I ask is I do all three in my house. When I go outside and come back in I smell either the cig or joint that I smoked before I went out, but I've never noticed an oder from the e-cig.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Can you tell when they vaped an e-cig in a room?
The reason I ask is I do all three in my house. When I go outside and come back in I smell either the cig or joint that I smoked before I went out, but I've never noticed an oder from the e-cig.

I can't - although there are often smells we can't quite place after a guest checked out.
Some good, some horrible, or annoying - like strong patchouli. One stinky foot odor
smell that I wanted to call the guest and ask what the hell - I could not figure out if it
was in the carpet, or down the sink drain. Took a lot of vinegar on the carpet and down
the drain with baking soda to get rid of it. LOL

The problem for a hotelier is that some people are hyper allergic, or hyper sensitive to
cleanliness, odors... I recently had the town administrator's relative leave because she
started to have breathing problems immediately after checking into a room. She and her
husband thought it might have been cigarette smoke from "forty years ago". No problems
in that room that I know of before or since. Two employees also checked the room and
did not notice anything.

So, I err on the side of caution. It looked odd to me and raised questions in my mind when
my customers were walking around with their vape thingies. How will other customers react to
customers using these things? What residual, if any, do they leave behind? Enough to trigger
a reaction or annoyance in the next guest? I don't know enough about these things, either.

I am familiar with e-cigs that look similar to traditional cigarettes. The guests who triggered
my questions had rectangular, metallic devices.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I can't - although there are often smells we can't quite place after a guest checked out.
Some good, some horrible, or annoying - like strong patchouli. One stinky foot odor
smell that I wanted to call the guest and ask what the hell - I could not figure out if it
was in the carpet, or down the sink drain. Took a lot of vinegar on the carpet and down
the drain with baking soda to get rid of it. LOL

The problem for a hotelier is that some people are hyper allergic, or hyper sensitive to
cleanliness, odors... I recently had the town administrator's relative leave because she
started to have breathing problems immediately after checking into a room. She and her
husband thought it might have been cigarette smoke from "forty years ago". No problems
in that room that I know of before or since. Two employees also checked the room and
did not notice anything.

So, I err on the side of caution. It looked odd to me and raised questions in my mind when
my customers were walking around with their vape thingies. How will other customers react to
customers using these things? What residual, if any, do they leave behind? Enough to trigger
a reaction or annoyance in the next guest? I don't know enough about these things, either.

I am familiar with e-cigs that look similar to traditional cigarettes. The guests who triggered
my questions had rectangular, metallic devices.

Thanks.
I know when I vape when playing horseshoes I get comments on how good the vapor smells, but that's outdoors and it does disappear quickly. None of my friends smoke anymore and they don't want smoking in their houses. Out of respect to them I've never asked if I could vape in their houses.
The last time I traveled (4 years ago) I stayed at couple hotels that didn't allow any smoking in any rooms. They where nice about it though and allowed me to smoke outside. One even had me park my motorcycle by the front door so the desk clerk and security guard could keep an eye on it for me.
I think some people (non-smokers) tend to get a little excited when they see someone vaping. For that reason I wouldn't allow it if I already didn't allow smoking in the hotel.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I think some people (non-smokers) tend to get a little excited when they see someone vaping. For that reason I wouldn't allow it if I already didn't allow smoking in the hotel.

I don't even attempt to vape in public places that wouldn't allow smoking. I vape the same way that I smoked, where smoking is allowed. I just don't feel like the confrontation or explanations or hassle.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Thanks.
I know when I vape when playing horseshoes I get comments on how good the vapor smells, but that's outdoors and it does disappear quickly. None of my friends smoke anymore and they don't want smoking in their houses. Out of respect to them I've never asked if I could vape in their houses.
The last time I traveled (4 years ago) I stayed at couple hotels that didn't allow any smoking in any rooms. They where nice about it though and allowed me to smoke outside. One even had me park my motorcycle by the front door so the desk clerk and security guard could keep an eye on it for me.
I think some people (non-smokers) tend to get a little excited when they see someone vaping. For that reason I wouldn't allow it if I already didn't allow smoking in the hotel.

(Hope they get the multi-quote fixed soon.) Anyway, thanks Thom and Suzanne. I think I'll
go the same route and ask people to smoke their vapes or e-cigs outside because it's
disconcerting to the non-smokers, and because of the hyper sensitive guests. Seems like the
fruity flavors could be bad with the residue.

(We let motorcycles kind of hide from street view on our sidewalks. And, we try to give bikers rooms
where they can park in front of their room. )

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Can you tell when they vaped an e-cig in a room?
The reason I ask is I do all three in my house. When I go outside and come back in I smell either the cig or joint that I smoked before I went out, but I've never noticed an oder from the e-cig.

I agree. There's little to no detectable odor from ecigs. Do you smell a pot of water boiling on the stove. That's about what it smells like. There's no odor to the propylene glycol, water or nicotine and too little flavoring extract to create an odor.

I vape at my daughter's houses where I was never allowed to smoke cigarettes. If anyone could detect the odor, they would. Disclaimer: I don't use strawberry cheescake or other candy/sweet flavors at all. I've tried cherry coke flavor and it was great, but I added a tobacco flavor to it ... still no odor.

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

Richard - If everyone followed your lead in posting opinions and counterpoints there would be far fewer personality clashes here. You sir, have a great deal of diplomacy.

As for what you wrote in counterpoint, just so you know, I'd never heard of that chemical before I read this article and I did no other research. I don't "vape" so it doesn't interest me personally. I figured anyone who wanted to know more was more than capable of doing their own research.

The article is in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, which has won numerous Pulitzer Prizes for their investigative reporting. I assumed they did their usual bang-up job, but that doesn't mean they always get everything right.

The reason I read that web site though, is for the Wisconsin sports columns (i.e. the Packers, Brewers, Bucks, and Badgers). The headline caught my attention because I know a lot of folks in here vape, and it made it sound risky, so I posted the link and teaser from the article out of concern for my OT friends.

Personally, I don't know anything about ecigs or vaping. When I quit smoking I quit cold turkey and never looked back. Since I don't use ecigs, it's not an issue I'm personally concerned with, which is why I'm not really active in this thread even though I started it. I'm only responding now because you specifically addressed your post to me, otherwise I'm not likely to post in it again.

That will be $5.00 for the personal reply. Please pay at the window on your way out.

PS - As for the government saying how dangerous it is in order to keep tax revenue from tobacco up, wouldn't the money they save on health care offset that? That's what they told us here. Otherwise, they could also just tax the ecig industry to make up for any lost revenue from tobacco. Not that I trust any given government, but taxing the industry seems like it would be easier than pulling off a massive disinformation campaign, but I could be wrong.

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Karen Blundell 9 years ago

not only are governments losing money in taxes from cigs - but this affects the pharmaceutical companies too - healthy people don't make them any money, do they?

there are some very powerful and evil lobbyists controlling things in our world -

it's best not to trust any for-profit enterprises. period.
trust what your body tells you - if you feel better and healthier vaping - rather than smoking - then that should be enough to make your decision.
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rondo

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

PS - As for the government saying how dangerous it is in order to keep tax revenue from tobacco up, wouldn't the money they save on health care offset that? That's what they told us here...

Australian figures:
8 Billion raised in cigarette excise tax last year.
320 Million in health system costs last year.

An Australian Senator Has Just Thanked Smokers For Their $8 Billion 'Staggering Generosity' To The Economy | Business Insider

Andrew
Ex-smoker

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Richard - If everyone followed your lead in posting opinions and counterpoints there would be far fewer personality clashes here. You sir, have a great deal of diplomacy.

I wish I could say I was like that all the time Dennis.

As for what you wrote in counterpoint, just so you know, I'd never heard of that chemical before I read this article and I did no other research. I don't "vape" so it doesn't interest me personally. I figured anyone who wanted to know more was more than capable of doing their own research.

The article is in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, which has won numerous Pulitzer Prizes for their investigative reporting. I assumed they did their usual bang-up job, but that doesn't mean they always get everything right.

Oh Dennis, I know you were publishing it for good reasons and I like that, it really wasn't a post disagreeing with you, just the article, or bits missing from it.

I say that because of the things missed out, like what temperature they heated it to which is hugely important and why only sweet flavours which have been known to contain Diacetyl, especially when heated at a high temperature, for some time now?

The way I see these articles is rather like extremely clever marketing. You see they publish an article about a chemical that is terribly bad for you in large doses and it's in Coffee and Ecigs. Now, no one has mentioned coffee, no one is saying coffee is worse than smoking and I'm even drinking one now, but Dennis, you read it and out of concern for people you know that vape, you came onto a public forum and shared the article. I suspect many millions shared that article across the web and various forms of social media and here's the killer - How many smokers, that were thinking of stopping using Ecigs, have now found a wonderful excuse, as if they needed one, to carry on smoking a bit longer? How many smokers and non smokers have just come to the conclusion that vaping is worse than smoking? How many people will they tell?

My point here is I kind of think that's the entire idea behind these articles and experiments.

If only the article told them they're already inhaling Diacetyl, in the form of smoke, in far higher doses and that's just one of the nasty buggers they're inhaling.

I'm sure these studies are not done for propaganda purposes only but call me a bluff old traditionalist but I can only think of 3 types of study that are possibly worth looking at.

1. The change, if any, a smoker experiences as he/she quits smoking for vaping.

2. The dangerous effects of an Ecig in comparison to a normal cigarette.

3. What percentage of people that switch from smoking to vaping then go on to quit vaping and nicotine addiction altogether. In other words, how effective is vaping in giving up a smoking habit?

That's it.

The reason I read that web site though, is for the Wisconsin sports columns (i.e. the Packers, Brewers, Bucks, and Badgers). The headline caught my attention because I know a lot of folks in here vape, and it made it sound risky, so I posted the link and teaser from the article out of concern for my OT friends.

I completely agree and thank you for that. You're a top chap.

Personally, I don't know anything about ecigs or vaping. When I quit smoking I quit cold turkey and never looked back. Since I don't use ecigs, it's not an issue I'm personally concerned with, which is why I'm not really active in this thread even though I started it. I'm only responding now because you specifically addressed your post to me, otherwise I'm not likely to post in it again.

Well done going cold turkey, you're a rare breed Dennis. Again, please don't think at any point am I arguing with you or disagreeing with your motives for posting this or anything, it's just my response to a belief, which may well be delusional, that most of these studies are funded in some way by the very people that have a specific interest in the revenue generated from smoking.

That will be $5.00 for the personal reply. Please pay at the window on your way out.

All paid Dennis. Nice one.

PS - As for the government saying how dangerous it is in order to keep tax revenue from tobacco up, wouldn't the money they save on health care offset that? That's what they told us here. Otherwise, they could also just tax the ecig industry to make up for any lost revenue from tobacco. Not that I trust any given government, but taxing the industry seems like it would be easier than pulling off a massive disinformation campaign, but I could be wrong.

You may be right, I don't know. I think they're going to have trouble taxing the vape industry like they do ciggys unless the entire industry is taken over by the big tobacco firms in which case you have a whole new black market and then we probably will see some really bad Eliquid being produced.

I think Rondo may have answered that too, though I don't have similar figures to hand for where you are or here I'm afraid.

Either way Dennis, you're someone I have a lot of respect for and wouldn't want you to think I'm having a go at you in any way. Enjoy your Wednesday.

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RPetrus

9 years ago

Eh... personally, I prefer the vape pens. MUCH cheaper than "ecigs" and the variety of flavors you can combine are awesome.

Not sure if vape pens are anymore or less dangerous than ecigs, but definitely a better value.

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davidfrankk

9 years ago

I think its the stupidest thing ever. No offence.

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Dan Riffle 9 years ago

Originally Posted by davidfrankk

I think its the stupidest thing ever. No offence.

Then you haven't read many posts down here, my friend.
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- bizgrower 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Then you haven't read many posts down here, my friend.
  
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discrat 9 years ago

Originally Posted by davidfrankk

I think its the stupidest thing ever. No offence.

What are you referring to?
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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by davidfrankk

I think its the stupidest thing ever. No offence.

Hi David.

Do you mean the study or Ecigs?

If it's Ecigs, my dear fellow, you are well and truly allowed to have whatever opinions you like but consider this.

To me cigarettes and numerous other things like Heroin, Crack and Crystal Meth are the stupidest things ever. Something that in Britain alone has allowed approximately 2,500,000 people to quit smoking is not stupid.

Also, if you've never smoked, which if I may assume you haven't, and you've never been addicted to nicotine and the numerous other chemicals in cigarettes designed to keep you hooked, I'm afraid you don't have any personal idea of the mindset of a smoker and therefore unable to really form a realistic opinion of whether or not Ecigs are stupid or not.

No offence either of course.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Hi David.

Do you mean the study or Ecigs?

If it's Ecigs, my dear fellow, you are well and truly allowed to have whatever opinions you like but consider this.

To me cigarettes and numerous other things like Heroin, Crack and Crystal Meth are the stupidest things ever. Something that in Britain alone has allowed approximately 2,500,000 people to quit smoking is not stupid.

Also, if you've never smoked, which if I may assume you haven't, and you've never been addicted to nicotine and the numerous other chemicals in cigarettes designed to keep you hooked, I'm afraid you don't have any personal idea of the mindset of a smoker and therefore unable to really form a realistic opinion of whether or not Ecigs are stupid or not.

No offence either of course.

In my younger days I was defiantly a "druggie". In fact I was a meth addict for about 1 1/2 years shooting an 1/8 of am ounce a day of pure Canadian rock crystal. I was able to quit all the hard drugs, no problem, not even withdrawal problems. After I quit, my drinking increased until I was drinking a quart of Jack Daniels, every night. I quit drinking with no problems also.
Cigarettes on the other hand is something that I've never been able to quit (yet). Nicotine and whatever else that is in cigs that make them addictive are far worse then any other hard drug I've ever done, at least for me.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

I used to chew tobacco (too many ag major friends at Colorado State U - lol).
I read, in a Tony Robbins book, about how the desire for anything goes away
after a few minutes.

Besides that:

Get a picture in your mind of you doing the things you do while smoking (or chewing).
For me, one of my favorite things used to be to read the Sunday papers while chewing.
Then you picture yourself doing those same things without smoking (or chewing).

Picture yourself on a movie screen smoking, or whatever habit you want to stop.
Then shatter that image like a big glass window and replace it with an image of
you not doing the same habit.

Wanting to avoid cancer was the biggest motivator for me. Mom had given me
pictures of people with oral cancer and those images blazed in my mind.

As for smoking, I can't stand the thought of needing an oxygen tank, not being very
mobile, and having problems living at the higher altitudes of the Rocky Mountains.

Thanks

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"If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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alexnkras

9 years ago

anyway it's good that somebody developed electronic cigarettes )
take care of others...

Thanks

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Never give up, and you'll see how others do!

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