The Science of Anti-Vaccination

by Joshua Rigley Banned
57 replies
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Here's an interesting change of pace on the vaccine debate. Rather than talk about whether or not vaccines cause autism, this video explains the various biases that cause humans to form the various opinions we have, and how we can stick to those opinions, regardless of any scientific evidence to the contrary.

Truth be told, this video is more about human biases than the vaccine debate, but they use the vaccine debate as an example. Well worth watching, IMHO.

  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    The statements of "asd" are WRONG! They aren't even in the DSM! BEFORE the garbage about Autism, they have spoken of substance tainting, like mercury, contamination, like with other infections, and allergies. And ALL are valid reasons. And HEY, an allergic REACTION ****DOES**** cause reactions similar to what happens with CDD, which they mistake for autism. An allergic reaction causes a violent attack against a benign agent. With CDD, it seems that a NORMAL pruning affects USED neurons, as opposed to affecting UNUSED neurons.

    As for Measles? At least German Measles, which is all **I** heard about as a kid, doesn't scare me. The others I haven't had enough experience to know about to judge. I obviously would vaccinate against smallpox, polio, tetanus, and whooping cough. But shouldn't ALL be concerned with that to SOME degree? POLIO, for example, is WELL KNOWN for its primary paralysis of major motor nerves. WHO CARES that so few know about its ability for TOTAL paralysis!? If you look around enough, you will see old pictures of people in IRON LUNGS because they got polio, and paralysis of the relatively small muscles of the diaphragm have made it so they can't breath! Of course, at this point, the US should be more of a sterile area keeping that stuff out. I mean we can't trust mexico, so there should be a border, and Canada should be watching THEIR periphery. Europe should be similar. So, for the most part, things would be as they are, though other areas would have to wait, etc...

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
    Thanks. Yes, you're right, that video has some very good insights into human behavior. I'm going to try and figure out how to tie these ideas into online marketing.

    In the mean time:
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Unfortunately "science" often has two sides, too - the independent one and the one of the people standing to gain the most bucks from it. The measles debate is moot. With the conditions in the US nobody has died from them in a long time - yet people are being whipped into a vaccine frenzy because a few kids got the measles.

    We went through this "science" bs when people were led by the nose to think that dumping sodium fluoride in water was a good thing. They ranted and raved about their kid's teeth and all about the damned science until everyone was forced to drink the poison. Here decades later after millions of people have been harmed by it, finally the real science is out of the closet. People were duped. All because you can whip people who know not one damned thing about science up to foaming at the mouth frenzy via media and "expert" advice. Laugh once here - even doctors didn't know it was sodium fluoride being dumped instead of calcium fluoride so even they were patsys.

    You want to pump social engineering videos at someone, you can pump social engineering via newspapers, even doctor's offices, fine - but I don't have to buy it. I was specially educated in the formulation of propaganda and ain't gonna bite for socialization techniques.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Unfortunately "science" often has two sides, too - the independent one and the one of the people standing to gain the most bucks from it. .
      Unfortunately "science" often has two sides, too - the independent one and the one of the licensed doctors and accredited scientists, with years of actual medical and scientific training.

      I thought I would fix that for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Unfortunately "science" often has two sides, too - the independent one and the one of the licensed doctors and accredited scientists, with years of actual medical and scientific training.
        You do realize that doctors have a practice, right? That they get a license to "practice" medicine?

        They are actually, practicing on you (general term) every time you go to them for any type of care, surgery, operation, etc. And since they are in the pharmaceuticals' back pockets, guess what else is being "practiced" on you...

        That being said, it is awesome when they get it right. Practice makes perfect?


        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


          They are actually, practicing on you (general term) every time you go to them for any type of care, surgery, operation, etc. And since they are in the pharmaceuticals' back pockets, guess what else is being "practiced" on you...
          What about all the doctors (and there are a lot...) which have gone into research which are not "in the pockets" of big pharma? You don't have to be a practicing doctor in a hospital to publish papers and still hold a medical degree, your training is still there though. Heck, 4 of my lecturers hold a medical degree, all they do is teach and research.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by butters View Post

            What about all the doctors (and there are a lot...) which have gone into research which are not "in the pockets" of big pharma? You don't have to be a practicing doctor in a hospital to publish papers and still hold a medical degree, your training is still there though. Heck, 4 of my lecturers hold a medical degree, all they do is teach and research.
            Well, that's an easy one!

            If they don't have a practice, they aren't practicing on you.


            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author butters
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Well, that's an easy one!

              If they don't have a practice, they aren't practicing on you.


              Terra
              I'm not understanding the practice part, the whole quote was based on research element and not practice. Am I missing something or is it just quite late where I am? Confused
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by butters View Post

                I'm not understanding the practice part, the whole quote was based on research element and not practice. Am I missing something or is it just quite late where I am? Confused
                Or am I confused?

                You asked what about doctors that just do research and not practice.

                So I said that if they didn't have a practice and weren't treating patients, then they weren't practicing on you.

                What am I missing?


                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author butters
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Or am I confused?

                  You asked what about doctors that just do research and not practice.

                  So I said that if they didn't have a practice and weren't treating patients, then they weren't practicing on you.

                  What am I missing?


                  Terra
                  Dunno, I'm at a loss !! Let's agree to be lost and confused together :p
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by butters View Post

                    Dunno, I'm at a loss !! Let's agree to be lost and confused together :p
                    You got it!

                    I just love a happy ending, lol!


                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author butters
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      You got it!

                      I just love a happy ending, lol!


                      Terra
                      It's a rare phenomenon seen on the off-topic forum every 10 years!!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      You got it!

                      I just love a happy ending, lol!


                      Terra
                      So do I, as long as the price is right.

                      Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post

                      This video certainly made me stop and think about how poorly I handle disagreements. I still have a long way to go yet, but by educating myself and by making an effort to share knowledge, I'll be able to improve as a person.
                      Do you have any idea how insightful and rare that is?

                      I applaud you.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        So do I, as long as the price is right.
                        Claude Darling,

                        I can guarantee you that I didn't pay Lee anything and neither did he pay me anything either.

                        It was completely free so I have to differ with you there. I love a happy ending where there is no price at all. The best things in life are free, ya know.


                        Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          The best things in life are free, ya know. Terra
                          You saying that makes me reconsider if I should continue to charge the ladies for my services. Dilemma, for sure!

                          Cheers. - Frank
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            You saying that makes me reconsider if I should continue to charge the ladies for my services. Dilemma, for sure!

                            Cheers. - Frank
                            Ha! At first glance, I thought you wrote "Demented for sure!" and I was about to agree with you on that one, that those ladies were demented, haha!

                            But now that I have re-read your post, I'm just going to let you face what you perceive to be a dilemma, all on your own.


                            Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          I love a happy ending where there is no price at all. The best things in life are free, ya know.


                          Terra
                          Some of those free happy endings can send you to the clinic.

                          Er... so I hear.




                          Joe Mobley
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                            Some of those free happy endings can send you to the clinic.

                            Er... so I hear.




                            Joe Mobley
                            LOL, Joe!

                            You just reminded me of why I love a good "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.


                            Terra
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    • Profile picture of the author jpenns
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Unfortunately "science" often has two sides, too - the independent one and the one of the people standing to gain the most bucks from it. The measles debate is moot. With the conditions in the US nobody has died from them in a long time - yet people are being whipped into a vaccine frenzy because a few kids got the measles.

      We went through this "science" bs when people were led by the nose to think that dumping sodium fluoride in water was a good thing. They ranted and raved about their kid's teeth and all about the damned science until everyone was forced to drink the poison. Here decades later after millions of people have been harmed by it, finally the real science is out of the closet. People were duped. All because you can whip people who know not one damned thing about science up to foaming at the mouth frenzy via media and "expert" advice. Laugh once here - even doctors didn't know it was sodium fluoride being dumped instead of calcium fluoride so even they were patsys.

      You want to pump social engineering videos at someone, you can pump social engineering via newspapers, even doctor's offices, fine - but I don't have to buy it. I was specially educated in the formulation of propaganda and ain't gonna bite for socialization techniques.
      Where do I even start with this crap?
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by jpenns View Post

        Where do I even start with this crap?
        You don't, get out now, it's an unwinnable battle... Your get bored first, trust me!
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by jpenns View Post

        Where do I even start with this crap?
        With this being the second post under your belt? Probably by just grabbing your popcorn and finding a comfortable chair.

        Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    The reason why anti-vaxxers will win is because people who believe in the science (you can't even argue that the science behind this is so overwhelmingly in favour of them being safe) get bored of arguing the same points over and over, to as the video said, is biased towards their beliefs.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      The reason why anti-vaxxers will win is because people who believe in the science (you can't even argue that the science behind this is so overwhelmingly in favour of them being safe) get bored of arguing the same points over and over, to as the video said, is biased towards their beliefs.
      We do get tired of arguing it - and shouldn't need to.

      Gonna be fun to watch all the alarm screamer's reactions when the vaccine immune super-viruses caused by over-vaccinating hit them. Some people absolutely never learn anything.
      Signature

      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        We do get tired of arguing it - and shouldn't need to.
        Your right, you shouldn't need to... You should just accept the evidence at hand and not run off on a tangent. Autism has a possible 1 in a million chance of occurring due to vaccinations. You claim the measles argument is moot because it has such a low death rate. But as we discovered in the past, measles is 2 times more likely to happen then the 1 in a million possible chance of getting autism and you still argue it. It's like you cherry pick your data to proove your point. I actually think that video is spot on... You can't say something is irrelevant then argue something which is less likely to occur when they both result in something tragic.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by butters View Post

          Your right, you shouldn't need to... You should just accept the evidence at hand and not run off on a tangent. Autism has a possible 1 in a million chance of occurring due to vaccinations. You claim the measles argument is moot because it has such a low death rate. But as we discovered in the past, measles is 2 times more likely to happen then the 1 in a million possible chance of getting autism and you still argue it. It's like you cherry pick your data to proove your point. I actually think that video is spot on... You can't say something is irrelevant then argue something which is less likely to occur when they both result in something tragic.
          What really makes me do the RCA dog head tilt is that people think the only reason someone would be against vaccines is because of autism. WTF? Now - what other reasons are there not to over-vaccinate? Measles aren't deadly in the US - mostly because of the state of our nutrition and hygiene. So why would someone want to vac for it and be so damned scared about it that they would start screaming to take everyone else's rights to their health freedom away for it?

          Ya know - some of the "anti-vaxers" aren't against ALL vaccines. They're against too many vaccines and vaccines for things that aren't very deadly. Most people don't argue about it when it comes to something like smallpox or polio. So why is that?

          Have fun with the research. There's a lot of propaganda on both sides so it takes awhile.
          Signature

          Sal
          When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
          Beyond the Path

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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            Measles aren't deadly in the US - mostly because of the state of our nutrition and hygiene. So why would someone want to vac for it and be so damned scared about it that they would start screaming to take everyone else's rights to their health freedom away for it?


            Sound logic right there, honestly, so sound.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            What really makes me do the RCA dog head tilt is that people think the only reason someone would be against vaccines is because of autism. WTF? Now - what other reasons are there not to over-vaccinate? Measles aren't deadly in the US - mostly because of the state of our nutrition and hygiene. So why would someone want to vac for it and be so damned scared about it that they would start screaming to take everyone else's rights to their health freedom away for it?

            Ya know - some of the "anti-vaxers" aren't against ALL vaccines. They're against too many vaccines and vaccines for things that aren't very deadly. Most people don't argue about it when it comes to something like smallpox or polio. So why is that?

            Have fun with the research. There's a lot of propaganda on both sides so it takes awhile.
            I have been saying the SAME thing! Frankly, emotionally and all, I am AGAINST vaccines! Yet I SOUGHT the polio vaccine out! As for the autism argument, even in that VIDEO, they speak of "better diagnosis". ****I**** have been saying broadened and careless. Either way, the effect is the same. MORE people get diagnosed, even if they didn't just get the ailment. SOME of the newly diagnosed people are past SIXTY years of age! So they do NOT represent a new case, but one over 60 years old. So they are counted as a new statistic when they shouldn't be counted AT ALL.

            As for the CDD I have been talking about, that SEEMS to always hit before 5 years of age. The first cycle of that happens around 2-3, and likely gets mylinated a bit later. It ALSO sets the stage for further development. It is a big deal. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to hit after 5, if it did, it would not be nearly as noticeable.

            HECK, in a way, I feel the same way about nuclear power. I kid of feel the same way about a lot of technology. Yet I will buy power from a nuclear power plant, and I am STEEPED in technology. COLOSUS describes something that COULD maybe happen, EYEBORGS actually IS starting, and was expected even hundreds of years ago and perhaps millenia. NOT the method, but certainly the idea and abuse, since it always ends up that way.

            There is actually a new group of homes here as providing MORE power than they use! In other words, you could run things while the city is dark, and the power company will PAY you for the excess! I DOUBT that power is the complicated, regulated, and costly, DANGEROUS nuclear. It is PROBABLY the simple, freely available, and cheap and SAFE SOLAR!

            Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        We do get tired of arguing it - and shouldn't need to.

        Gonna be fun to watch all the alarm screamer's reactions when the vaccine immune super-viruses caused by over-vaccinating hit them.
        The scientific term for that is 'science fiction.'
        Some people absolutely never learn anything.
        Introspection is a beautiful thing. :-)

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

          The scientific term for that is 'science fiction.'
          Frank is spot on with this statement.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by butters View Post

            Frank is spot on with this statement.
            It's always nice when brilliance is recognized. :-)

            Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

          The scientific term for that is 'science fiction.'
          Introspection is a beautiful thing. :-)

          Cheers. - Frank




          Frank. You need to do what I do.....just get you and your kids vaccinated, and stop worrying about everyone else.


          If they want to get sick, why should we stop them?
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

            Frank. You need to do what I do.....just get you and your kids vaccinated, and stop worrying about everyone else.
            Trust me - I never worry about anyone else. :-)
            If they want to get sick, why should we stop them?
            We shouldn't. As a matter of fact - we should encourage them.

            Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Claude,

    I wonder how much training doctors REALLY have! I have encountered doctors that did NOT know about vitamins, or protein! *******MANY******* don't know about problems with TODAYS ways to take blood stats. THAT is why I had to have my operation, by the way! MANY don't know about some POPULAR problems. They have to learn TERMINOLOGY, which takes a LONG time! They have to learn about certain standards that take a LONG time! They have to learn about basic anatomy, and be able to spot each item, which can take a long time. They have to do various labs, that take a long time. They have to learn about the various requirements and the like. Do they EVER learn about drugs? Vitamins? Macros? WHO KNOWS!?!?!?!? One thing is for sure, NOBODY would hire them, and even the COLLEGES admit that! They THEN have to work, often for FREE, as I understand it, as interns! They have to gradually work up the ranks in on the job training. And, of course, they tend to learn ONLY what they are exposed to!

    BTW it was such an INTERN that asked to take my pulse AGAIN!!!!!!! WHY? Because she was using the OLD method, and couldn't tell that I had an artificial valve! Unfortunately, for HER, I had an artificial valve, her supervisor knew it, and asked the intern if SHE heard it! You see, THAT is one of the failings of the NEW way of taking blood stats. The NEW way tells you the average pulse, and MAYBE average bloodpressure. The OLD way tells you THAT and the REAL pulse, and whether there is a valve problem, whether there is a heart problem, etc.... But the NEW way is push button and fully automated. The OLD way requires a trained and dedicated person to pay attention for a few minutes.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Claude,

      I wonder how much training doctors REALLY have!
      Steve
      Quite a lot to keep it short... Considering most med schools range in the 5-6 years, I would say they receive a lot of training. It's common knowledge that interns make mistakes, they are interns, they are new to their jobs. Thats why you have ATTENDINGS which are in control of you and the interns to ensure that they don't mess up to badly. Lets face it, if interns didn't mess up and have the ability to make mistakes without someone being their to stop them, we wouldn't have any new doctors.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by butters View Post

        Quite a lot to keep it short... Considering most med schools range in the 5-6 years, I would say they receive a lot of training. It's common knowledge that interns make mistakes, they are interns, they are new to their jobs. Thats why you have ATTENDINGS which are in control of you and the interns to ensure that they don't mess up to badly. Lets face it, if interns didn't mess up and have the ability to make mistakes without someone being their to stop them, we wouldn't have any new doctors.
        Yeah 5-6 years SOUNDS like a lot, but STILL, considering all they have to learn just for the absolute BASICS, you start to wonder.

        As for interns? They make some real BASIC mistakes! I mean ***I*** could have told you, even BEFORE I got an artificial valve, if a persons pulse sounded so mechanical! She had to be BAD to miss it!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Yeah 5-6 years SOUNDS like a lot, but STILL, considering all they have to learn just for the absolute BASICS, you start to wonder.

          As for interns? They make some real BASIC mistakes! I mean ***I*** could have told you, even BEFORE I got an artificial valve, if a persons pulse sounded so mechanical! She had to be BAD to miss it!

          Steve
          Remember this, you are basing your whole view based on your experience. Your experience is 1 out of millions of hospitals patients across the USA and 100s millions across the world. Maybe you had a bad intern but the attending obviously realised and corrected it. That is what they are there for, to correct the interns mistakes. There is an absolute wealth of information trainee doctors need to learn, not all relevant to clinical practice but has to be learnt none the less. It's not easy being new to medicine, I'm sure if we all had to do it we would make mistakes and yes, we would make basic mistakes, ill put money on it.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by butters View Post

            Remember this, you are basing your whole view based on your experience. Your experience is 1 out of millions of hospitals patients across the USA and 100s millions across the world. Maybe you had a bad intern but the attending obviously realised and corrected it. That is what they are there for, to correct the interns mistakes. There is an absolute wealth of information trainee doctors need to learn, not all relevant to clinical practice but has to be learnt none the less. It's not easy being new to medicine, I'm sure if we all had to do it we would make mistakes and yes, we would make basic mistakes, ill put money on it.
            Certainly everyone would make mistakes. Some make some real WHOPPERS though!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author butters
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Some make some real WHOPPERS though!

              Steve
              Not gonna lie, I didn't ever think I would say these words in this thread to you, I agree!!
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Claude,

      I wonder how much training doctors REALLY have!

      11 years minimum more than you and me
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author rucrazy
    Those who don't take responsibility for their own health, often times pay for it with their lives.

    Putting your trust solely in the hands of an "expert" without questioning the validity of their education, indoctrination, inherent ignorance, or vested interests can also be detrimental to your health.

    Sponsored studies often times get sponsored results.

    The simple fact that we (Americans) spent the most money on health care and are the sickest of the industrialized nations pretty much speaks for itself. (toxic pharmaceuticals and toxic food staples).

    The affordable care act (it may be expensive, but at least the coverage sucks act) should give evidence to the average person that the laws are written by corporations and lobbyists, not for the people by the people.

    I'm surprised to find a topic like this here. -hell, I can't watch the news for 5 minutes without getting fired up.

    Knowledge is power !

    Don't drink the kool aid !

    Here's a quote:

    The world we live in: "Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner


    And...........That's my 2-cents !!
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by rucrazy View Post

      Those who don't take responsibility for their own health, often times pay for it with their lives.

      Putting your trust solely in the hands of an "expert" without questioning the validity of their education, indoctrination, inherent ignorance, or vested interests can also be detrimental to your health.

      Sponsored studies often times get sponsored results.

      The simple fact that we (Americans) spent the most money on health care and are the sickest of the industrialized nations pretty much speaks for itself. (toxic pharmaceuticals and toxic food staples).

      The affordable care act (it may be expensive, but at least the coverage sucks act) should give evidence to the average person that the laws are written by corporations and lobbyists, not for the people by the people.

      I'm surprised to find a topic like this here. -hell, I can't watch the news for 5 minutes without getting fired up.

      Knowledge is power !

      Don't drink the kool aid !

      Here's a quote:

      The world we live in: "Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner


      And...........That's my 2-cents !!
      Take your 2 and raise ya 2. Total agreement with the whole post! Welcome to the OT forum.
      Signature

      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    You want to pump social engineering videos at someone, you can pump social engineering via newspapers, even doctor's offices, fine - but I don't have to buy it. I was specially educated in the formulation of propaganda and ain't gonna bite for socialization techniques.
    "Special ed" indeed.

    Want to get a look at real propaganda, folks? Re-read Sal's post. A sloppy, but classic, implementation of a common technique: When someone disagrees with you, question their motives. Do not allow those you've "infected" to let the artificial adversarial relationship slip, or they may drift from the flock.

    Or malign them as "sheep" or stupid. Anything to maintain the "elite" status of the cult.

    You must never allow the followers of whatever One Great Truth you're spreading to believe that equally good and smart people can believe differently and be sincere and decent human beings.

    Watch her posts on these subjects. It's the same tactic, over and over.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      "Special ed" indeed.

      Want to get a look at real propaganda, folks? Re-read Sal's post. A sloppy, but classic, implementation of a common technique: When someone disagrees with you, question their motives. Do not allow those you've "infected" to let the artificial adversarial relationship slip, or they may drift from the flock.

      Or malign them as "sheep" or stupid. Anything to maintain the "elite" status of the cult.

      You must never allow the followers of whatever One Great Truth you're spreading to believe that equally good and smart people can believe differently and be sincere and decent human beings.

      Watch her posts on these subjects. It's the same tactic, over and over.


      Paul

      Um..........Paul? I was reacting to the technique of social herding used in the video. It uses that very technique. I don't care if someone wants to vac or not. I really don't. I just get upset when people start screaming that it has to be my choice, too - and this video uses social condemnation of a point of view rather than science in the attempt to get people to side with it. That's without comment one about the material in it. We've seen the same stuff written about political points of view. There's studies on both sides, liberal and conservative, claiming "scientific" evidence that the people of one side are inherently smarter than the other. This video engages the same technique.

      The special ed I was talking about was how to write effective propaganda. I don't care what the material is they cover........it's propagandized.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        I didn't say anything about vaccinating in that post, Sal. I pointed out a technique you use.

        Here's another one: Change the subject (like you just did) to reframe the challenge into something it wasn't.

        That video wasn't about vaccination. It was about demonstrable tendencies of the human mind and social structures, and explained how you can have two wildly different sides to a subject for which everyone has access to the same data.

        Of course you view it as propaganda. That's part of the pattern. You're focusing on the example, rather than the principle it's intended to illustrate.


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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Paul,

          Are there books, articles, posts, videos, etc. that list some of these technigues? I recognize some of them but would like to add some structure to my understanding.

          Thanks,

          Joe Mobley




          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I pointed out a technique you use.

          Here's another one: Change the subject (like you just did) to reframe the challenge into something it wasn't.

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            Paul,

            Are there books, articles, posts, videos, etc. that list some of these technigues? I recognize some of them but would like to add some structure to my understanding.

            Thanks,

            Joe Mobley
            Joe; Guides to Straight Thinking: With Thirteen Common Fallacies is perhaps the best book I've ever read on common logical fallacies, and argument techniques that are used.

            I have several other books on the subject, but this is the closest to what you want. What's going to shock you, is that you'll recognize when you are using a poor argument. And you'll instantly recognize it in others.

            Here's a link to the Amazon page.

            http://www.amazon.com/Guides-Straight-Thinking-Thi...http://www.amazon.com/Guides-Straight-Thinking-Thi...
            Non affiliate link.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I didn't say anything about vaccinating in that post, Sal. I pointed out a technique you use.

          Here's another one: Change the subject (like you just did) to reframe the challenge into something it wasn't.

          That video wasn't about vaccination. It was about demonstrable tendencies of the human mind and social structures, and explained how you can have two wildly different sides to a subject for which everyone has access to the same data.

          Of course you view it as propaganda. That's part of the pattern. You're focusing on the example, rather than the principle it's intended to illustrate.


          Paul
          Paul - I said it's propaganda because not only has he a slanted view on the "vaccine science" - his cognitive science isn't all that acute either. Put that together with the title followed by the disclaimer - this isn't about vaccines at all. Really? He goes on to list some things about vaccines that is not true, then takes off on faulty cognitive science. Judging from the timing of his little broadcast about the cognitive science of biases which is centered around falsely scientific premises about vaccines, he's either stupid or he has an agenda.

          So -- I didn't change the subject. I'm pointing out propaganda. As far as saying people are stupid if they don't agree with my stance on vacs? I've already pointed out my confusion that people always think it's because of thimerosal.

          The science he used for his example is flawed. I listed the credible links about it from Pubmed somewhere. Thimerosal can cause autism -- measles vaccines do not have thimerosal in them - and small children aren't supposed to receive vacs with it in them because there are credible studies that link the two - done by real and reputable medical labs. So they took it out. A lot of vacs no longer contain it. So - most people on both sides of that issue are wrong. There are still some vacs with thimerosal in them. Those are the ones that actually have warning labels with autism listed as one of the side effects.

          Now -- that's the science, and considering that this yahoo based examples on invalid premises - it's propaganda no matter what the point he is making. He'd lose in a college debate on that principal alone. Examples used to support the validity of an argument have to be valid, too.

          OKAY?

          BTW - I posted the links on Themerosal on another thread. You can look it up on Pub Med if you don't like the "flawed science" premise call on his argument.
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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


            I listed the credible links about it from Pubmed somewhere.
            No you didn't, i responded to each article you posted explaining what it was, I awaited your reply to my comments as to why they were a pile of crap but you never bothered. Kinda of a trending thing, someone poses a fair and just arguement to your post then you selectively not answer it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
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    I think just about everyone who posted in this thread (except Paul) managed to completely miss the point of this video, and my reason for posting it; arguing doesn't work. Just look at this thread as an example, and see how quickly disagreement turns into thinly-veiled insults.

    One thing stuck out to me in this whole video:

    Trying to convince someone that a previously held belief is incorrect has been proven to actually increase their affinity for that idea.
    In other words, telling someone they're wrong about something doesn't work. Listening to other people's points of view, and finding things to agree with has a much better chance of producing a positive response than simply flat out telling someone they're wrong, or implying that they're an idiot for not sharing your views, or saying that they're part of some kind of conspiracy.

    I'm just tired of seeing people constantly get at each other's throats over every subject that can possibly be disagreed on. I was hoping the information in this video would make people stop and think about the way they handle debates with others, and consider better ways for expressing disagreement. That's all.

    Joshua
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post

      I think just about everyone who posted in this thread (except Paul) managed to completely miss the point of this video, and my reason for posting it; arguing doesn't work. Just look at this thread as an example, and see how quickly disagreement turns into thinly-veiled insults.

      One thing stuck out to me in this whole video:



      In other words, telling someone they're wrong about something doesn't work. Listening to other people's points of view, and finding things to agree with has a much better chance of producing a positive response than simply flat out telling someone they're wrong, or implying that they're an idiot for not sharing your views, or saying that they're part of some kind of conspiracy.

      I'm just tired of seeing people constantly get at each other's throats over every subject that can possibly be disagreed on. I was hoping the information in this video would make people stop and think about the way they handle debates with others, and consider better ways for expressing disagreement. That's all.

      Joshua
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        I was hoping the information in this video would make people stop and think about the way they handle debates with others, and consider better ways for expressing disagreement. That's all.

        Joshua
        You are expecting a maturity level that is not currently available here.


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        • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
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          Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

          You are expecting a maturity level that is not currently available here.


          Joe Mobley
          Well, I won't try to claim that I'm mature, myself. I get angry about stupid stuff just as easily as anyone else, and I'm just as prone to hurling insults at someone purely for the sake of scoring points.

          Even so, I still think that sharing this video will do more good than harm. Like the guy says at the end:

          Only by understanding and accepting these psychological pitfalls that we're all so susceptible to will we be able to solve this problem, and that is what science is all about.
          This video certainly made me stop and think about how poorly I handle disagreements. I still have a long way to go yet, but by educating myself and by making an effort to share knowledge, I'll be able to improve as a person.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

          You are expecting a maturity level that is not currently available here. Joe Mobley
          Oh, it's plenty available. It's just that it's never employed. Where's the fun in that?

          Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley
    Paul,

    Are there books, articles, posts, videos, etc. that list some of these technigues? I recognize some of them but would like to add some structure to my understanding.

    Thanks,

    Joe Mobley
    Guess I won't repeat some of it that seems to have been edited out of this thread.

    Take a logic class or read intro and then more advanced logic books and you'll find the more overt ones. Some works in cognitive sciences will introduce you to a few of the principles that it works on, but to really get deep into it will take some deep study - cognitive science, cognitive linguistics, psycho and socio linguistics. You can learn as much as you want to. Takes time if you want to know enough to be useful to military intelligence. LOL.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Guess I won't repeat some of it that seems to have been edited out of this thread.
      It wasn't edited out:

      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Joe; Guides to Straight Thinking: With Thirteen Common Fallacies is perhaps the best book I've ever read on common logical fallacies, and argument techniques that are used.

      I have several other books on the subject, but this is the closest to what you want. What's going to shock you, is that you'll recognize when you are using a poor argument. And you'll instantly recognize it in others.

      Here's a link to the Amazon page.

      Guides to Straight Thinking: With Thirteen Common Fallacies: S. Chase: 9780060107109: Amazon.com: Books

      Non affiliate link.
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