BlackBerry and AT&T are already making moves that could exploit new 'utility' regulations.

17 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
  • |
The Supreme Court has ruled that if the FCC applies Title II to the Internet, all uses of telecommunications will have to pass the "just and reasonable" test. Bureaucrats can review the fairness of Google 's search results, Facebook 's news feeds and news sites' links to one another and to advertisers. BlackBerry is already lobbying the FCC to force Apple and Netflix to offer apps for BlackBerry's unpopular phones. Bureaucrats will oversee peering, content-delivery networks and other parts of the interconnected network that enables everything from Netflix and YouTube to security drones and online surgery.
New competitor Google Fiber can offer low-cost broadband only because it also earns revenues from online advertising. In other words, AT&T has already built a case against Google Fiber that Google's cross-subsidization from advertising is not "just and reasonable."

Utility regulation was designed to maintain the status quo, and it succeeds. This is why the railroads, Ma Bell and the local water monopoly were never known for innovation. The Internet was different because its technologies, business models and creativity were permissionless.
L. Gordon Crovitz: From Internet to Obamanet - WSJ

How can anyone possibly think this is a good thing?
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

    L. Gordon Crovitz: From Internet to Obamanet - WSJ

    How can anyone possibly think this is a good thing?

    He has dared to differ with you and the WSJ...

    Tim Berners-Lee, Web Creator, Defends Net Neutrality - NYTimes.com

    So has the guy art the Oatmeal... (I love oatmeal!)

    http://tinyurl.com/OatMealNet
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902603].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      He has dared to differ with you and the WSJ...

      Tim Berners-Lee, Web Creator, Defends Net Neutrality - NYTimes.com
      FIRST of all, he is trying to hype up a LIE! The "World Wide Web" is ******NOT****** the internet! It is a protocol that runs OVER the internet!

      SECOND, he OBVIOUSLY doesn't understand US politics! US politics usually gives bills a CONTRARY name, or acronym. On top of that, people put in lots of JUNK! WHY do they put in the junk? They get paid for it, or it fits their agenda. Once it starts being discussed, it is often easier to accept it, rather than remove it, This is ESPECIALLY true if a bill in the senate is changed and passes. If it changes, and passes, it must be approved by the house. If the house passes it UNCHANGED, the senate doesn't have to revote. If it is changed, AT ALL, the senate must REVOTE!

      THIRDLY, this is NOT what is being proposed. If it were, it would be ONE PAGE! So WHY is it over 330 pages?

      BTW TBL took an ALREADY specified standard(SGML,created in 1986), created(MAYBE) an obvious URL format, ADDED(MAYBE) a few commands(thereby creating HTML), and put that in a networked protocol(HTTP), in 8/1991. The INTERNET effectively started around 1969, and the internet as we currently know it dates back to 1973! Ironically, it was recorded as part of the PARC project! YOU KNOW THE ONE! It ALSO gave the MOUSE, current style GUI, and was the DIRECT predecessor of the MAC and the NEXT. YEP, the SAME MAC that led to windows, and the SAME NEXT that TBL used for the WWW! So TBL not only did NOT create the internet! He created what he created on a computer based on a computer that was used to develop the internet!

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902622].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      He has dared to differ with you and the WSJ...

      Tim Berners-Lee, Web Creator, Defends Net Neutrality - NYTimes.com
      That's all well and good and noble - but do you think the internet would be what it s today if it had been regulated as a telecom from the beginning?

      You'd still be stuck with a 56K modem (or 28K or 12K) getting your net from the phone company.

      Maybe the government would have built it, I don't know. Kinda doubt it, though.
      Signature

      The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

      Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902635].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        That's all well and good and noble - but do you think the internet would be what it s today if it had been regulated as a telecom from the beginning?

        You'd still be stuck with a 56K modem (or 28K or 12K) getting your net from the phone company.

        Maybe the government would have built it, I don't know. Kinda doubt it, though.

        We'll see if this net neutrality stuff turns into a boondoggle.
        Signature

        "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902658].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          We'll see if this net neutrality stuff turns into a boondoggle.
          Interesting that you didn't answer my question.

          do you think the internet would be what it s today if it had been regulated as a telecom from the beginning?
          Signature

          The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

          Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902683].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            Interesting that you didn't answer my question.

            Its a good thing the feds didn't really interfere with the development of the net as we know it but now is the time for some new regs restricting what the larger concerns can and cannot do - IMHO.


            They (the larger concerns) will make business moves verses any and all regs on the books and some that will be obvious that won't be in the best interest of the public.

            IMHO, most people in this country don't want to see their internet...

            - cost more

            - be slower

            - access restricted any more than it is now

            - more limitations on free speech


            From a small businessman's point of view, I don't want...

            - My ads to cost more

            - who wants a slower web?

            - access restricted any more than it is now.

            - more limitations on ad options and speech.



            IMHO, it is up to the national government, via our representatives - this time in the form of the FCC, to do a good job at keeping up - before they (the larger concerns) build something that won't be good for the general public and small business people, that can't be undone.

            (at least not without a whole lot of problems...so many that everyone, especially the pols, will just say ahhhh...

            If we're not careful, there could be only a few places anyone can go on the net (compared to now), and all content is controlled by only 50-500 businesses - within 25 years.

            Call it malarky and you know who's overreach. Some do.

            Steve...

            We simply disagree about what to do about what I and others perceive as a threat to everyone's internet.

            I guess you're proposing we do nothing about anything concerning the internet?

            Just leave it alone and see what happens?


            If so...

            As I'm typing this, I'm also greedily rubbing my hands at the thought of the feds messing up the internet for just about everyone else while I buy stock in those larger concerns.

            Now...







































            ... imagine my evil laugh.
            Signature

            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902765].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I can't get to the article, so it wouldn't be reasonable to comment on it. I can answer your question to TL, though.

              None of the industries that are currently covered under Title II started out regulated. They were initially chaotic, driven by small and innovative companies, which ended up being aggregated into monolithic corporations under the heading of vertical integration.

              The concept of "natural monopoly" being balanced by the public good is important in this discussion. You already know what it means, so I don't suppose there's any need to get into that.

              At this point, there's no chance of a monopoly in the sense it applied to phone companies and electricity suppliers. It barely applies to phone service any more. Every day I experience a live example of why. I have a landline which is less reliable than my cellular desk phone, a smartphone that doubles as a backup Internet connection, and a VOIP line I use for specific other purposes.

              I can video conference or voice chat with people all over the world via the cell or cable systems. Ma Bell not required.

              And virtually all of that innovation occurred after the regulation of the phone companies.

              Cable TV developed more quickly, but in much the same process. It was eventually regulated to protect local stations from "importing" of shows from areas outside their reach that would compete in the same programming. This was considered appropriate, in some part, due to the fact that those stations were already regulated by Federal licensing of broadcast frequencies.

              Innovation in cable offerings and technology have continued quite nicely since regulations were enforced, and the profitability of cable companies has grown enviably over that time.

              The content of cable programming has always been subject to regulation, but much less so than broadcast television stations. That, too, is based on the concept of public ownership of frequencies, but it worked in cable's favor. They don't use limited public frequencies.

              Given the potential competition from DSL, community wifi, cell and satellite service, and municipal fiber, I don't see innovation in data carriage being stifled any time soon. UNLESS the current providers are allowed to create content- or source-based filters to control the speed of information based on their own priorities.

              If you're concerned about things limiting freedom of access or innovation, or infringing on one's personal rights, your time would be better spent looking into Google fiber, and the implications of allowing an already megalithic data aggregator to have that kind of access to personal communications of that many people.

              Or the notion that cable companies, if allowed to control speed of access to various types of content, could fall under the sway of the regional equivalents of a Texas school board.

              Either of those should scare the hell out of you, Steve.

              This battle isn't about technology. It's about content and money, and who controls both. And the net neutrality side is about leaving that control in the hands of end users, not the government or monopolies.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902894].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                ...Given the potential competition from DSL, community wifi, cell and satellite service, and municipal fiber, I don't see innovation in data carriage being stifled any time soon. UNLESS the current providers are allowed to create content- or source-based filters to control the speed of information based on their own priorities.
                With the exception of municipal fiber (didn't even know there was such a thing) none of those are any competition to cable.

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                If you're concerned about things limiting freedom of access or innovation, or infringing on one's personal rights, your time would be better spent looking into Google fiber, and the implications of allowing an already megalithic data aggregator to have that kind of access to personal communications of that many people.

                Or the notion that cable companies, if allowed to control speed of access to various types of content, could fall under the sway of the regional equivalents of a Texas school board.

                Either of those should scare the hell out of you, Steve.
                They both do.

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                This battle isn't about technology. It's about content and money, and who controls both. And the net neutrality side is about leaving that control in the hands of end users, not the government or monopolies.

                Paul
                It is as you say, the battle is for control. The pure net-neutrality side, among the little people, is as you describe it, and I do not totally disagree with the ideals.

                But evidently unlike many people, I see little difference between the FCC and a Texas school board. I trust neither.

                Google, Comcast, and TWC on one side, the FCC on the other. Rock and hard place.

                A cabin in the mountains at a hot springs, where the only cloud one has access to is the one that settles in the morning and burns off by noon, is beginning to look more and more inviting. A few good books and a case of Tennessee whisky.
                Signature

                The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

                Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902944].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        That's all well and good and noble - but do you think the internet would be what it s today if it had been regulated as a telecom from the beginning?

        You'd still be stuck with a 56K modem (or 28K or 12K) getting your net from the phone company.

        Maybe the government would have built it, I don't know. Kinda doubt it, though.
        The government had NOTHING to do with building the internet! SURE, they had project DARPA, and they gave us things like EMAIL(WHAT A DISASTER!)! And SURE, they had a SMALL network, most of which we STILL can't access! And they had some rules ******RESTRICTING****** access! REMEMBER? AL GORE tried to take credit for THAT in a way that made it sound like he CREATED it? People STILL haven't let him live that down!


        He says PLAINLY, around :50 "I took the initiative in creating the internet"!

        Here is THAT part:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFJ8cHAlco#t=50

        ANYWAY, he did NOT create it, but apparently OPENED it, and THEN COMPANIES built on it.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902663].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Mr. Oatmeal is simplistic, idealistic, and hypocritical.

    What he wrote can't be quoted, and is inaccessible by people who have to use a screen reader.

    I find it likely he/she was also an advocate for Section 508 and probably wanted it to apply to everyone who puts up a website.

    I also see that he/she doesn't have a problem paying for services by the pound instead of by the piece as the graphics are all served from Amazon AWS.

    So, to quote just parts of the screed since I don't feel like typing much:
    It's not putting the internet in the hands of the government or allowing the fed to dictate how much you pay for internet access. It simply classifies the internet in such a way that all data, regardless of origin, must be treated equally.
    Simply? Simply??? Does this person live in a cave? I would love to be able to be such a simpleton.

    Because Net Neutrality isn't about control.
    ROFLMAO
    Signature

    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902662].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    There was a graph on one of the articles about when Comcast put the screws to Netflix.

    That definitely happened.

    But do you think it would have happened had there been viable competition for Comcast?

    Do you agree that Gooble and Apfel should be required to make BlackBerry apps available over their networks?

    Should Gooble be disallowed from building an fiberoptic infrastructure using profits from advertising because it isn't 'fair'?

    The grounds are already laid for both of those battles.

    This FCC farce is 'Net Neutrality' in name only.
    Signature

    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902672].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    The best thing that could have happened for consumers and the public happened when Ma Bell was broken up and deregulated. Within a few short years, cell phones hit. The leader? BlackBerry (at least at the time).

    Comcast could squeeze Netflix because people in areas that Comcast serves have no other choice for broadband. Why? Municipally-enforced monopoly.

    I don't think the government should do something more, I think they should do something less. End the cable monopoly so there can be effective competitors to Comcast and Time Warner. When Comcast or TWC customers find their Netflix throttled because their ISP is trying to extort money, they can switch to Google fiberoptic service.

    The whole industry of talk radio came into being because the FCC trashed the Fairness Doctrine. I know you don't like that because the popular shows are conservative talk radio, but if most of the country tilted left it could easily be the other way. It could still be, if some charismatic personality showed up that could draw the audiences. Point is, that only happened when bureaucrats got out of the way.

    You say you don't want restrictions on free speech, yet that's exactly what is in store if this comes about. You'll probably applaud it because it will affect one side more than the other, but that could easily change too. What then?

    The 'net is what it is today because people were free to innovate. Now we're up against a wall that was created by the government - municipal service monopolies. Instead of tearing down that wall to allow profit-motivated infrastructure improvement and innovation, your solution is to add to it.

    I think it sucks that the cable companies can extort content providers. The answer is not more regulation (which caused the problem in the first place), but less. End the cable monopolies.
    Signature

    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902893].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    End the cable monopolies.
    This I absolutely agree with.

    By the way, Steve... The phone companies were not deregulated. The biggest was broken up. The telephone industry is more tightly regulated now than ever before.

    Just sayin' ...
    Signature
    .
    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9902901].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      This I absolutely agree with.

      By the way, Steve... The phone companies were not deregulated. The biggest was broken up. The telephone industry is more tightly regulated now than ever before.

      Just sayin' ...
      Did I say the phone companies were deregulated? If so, I misspoke. The use of the phone system has been! ILECS are regulated a LOT! Part of that is that they must have CLECS, which are ALSO regulated a lot! I worked with a cell phone company that SPECIALIZED in small markets. They told me the federal government OUTLAWED licensing a big market without servicing a small one. NOBODY wanted the penny ante small markets, but were left having to provide for them. That was, of course, one reason why the government mandated it. This OTHER company didn't want to deal with the big areas. So what happened was the big companies setup the towers, etc...and the little company bought the small markets from the big guys. For a while, they just sat back and racked the money in because they got a lot of the roaming fees! They laughed at the idea of making so much money and never having to even send a bill.

      But if you want to use a phone line, it isn't as hard as it used to be. You can buy a phone from anywhere, hook up phones, etc... BTW the innovation took off AFTER that was deregulated! Bell has the 103,202, and 212, do they have ANY of the newer modem standards? For a while, a lot of the phone company infrastructure stuff was separated, by like lucent. I wonder how the reintegration affected that.

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9903666].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW as for google and the like? I HATE THEM! I keep forgetting to do so but one of the things I next plan to do is bypass a lot of that stuff. And there is no telling WHAT they will do, once they get the information. The current courts seem to be ok with the idea of always changing adhesion contracts.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9903683].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steve (seasoned),
      Did I say the phone companies were deregulated?
      Nope. That was Steve Johnson.

      Steve (Johnson),
      With the exception of municipal fiber (didn't even know there was such a thing) none of those are any competition to cable.
      Sure they are. Not all in terms of speed, but they're alternatives. And some could become rivals in terms of the speed most people want.

      You won't hear a lot about municipal fiber if the cable companies can help it. They're all over utility regulators and state legislatures trying to keep it out of cities that want it. Scares the hell out of them.
      Google, Comcast, and TWC on one side, the FCC on the other. Rock and hard place.
      Google is squarely on the side of net neutrality. They are as much of a concern for the cable companies as anything in the market, long term.

      As for the FCC, I'd be happy to trust the current chairman on this, if it were his decision alone. Read a bit about his history and it becomes clear he's not the usual beltway bureaucrat. He knows the industries, and has a habit of being on the right side of things, from a long term growth and innovation perspective.

      Not everyone in Washington is incompetent and corrupt.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9903867].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Not everyone in Washington is incompetent and corrupt.

        Paul
        Only the live ones
        Signature

        The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

        Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9904338].message }}

Trending Topics