Genetically Modified Mosquitoes

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Is this the way forward? The core technology can be used in any insect as long as it sexually reproduces.

Oxitec's plans offer a striking vision of the future ways that genetically modified animals could help tackle public health problems or offer new options to industry - including food production.
Is the world ready for GM animals?
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    This is some scary stuff. We have not clue one what the consequences will be if these things are released into our environments. If we weren't busy destroying environments our ecosystems would have plenty of life forms that would keep mosquitoes in check. To destroy an environment then release some new life form not found in nature into it to fix it instead of restoring it as nature intended it to be is absolutely irresponsible and dangerous.
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  • Profile picture of the author RealCasher
    Well, It is good news and bad news.

    Good because i'm sick of mosquitoes, i'm typing this reply and scratching a mosquito bite.

    Bad news, because I agree with HeySal. The butterfly effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheWriteOne
    I agree with HeySal. We should not play god and create genetically engineered animals. Mother earth has her way of balancing out her system. If you force something that will change the balance of a system, it could only make things worst. Public health problems are caused by the neglect of humans. A lot of trash and less plants will result in a lot of problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TheWriteOne View Post

      I agree with HeySal. We should not play god and create genetically engineered animals. Mother earth has her way of balancing out her system. If you force something that will change the balance of a system, it could only make things worst. Public health problems are caused by the neglect of humans. A lot of trash and less plants will result in a lot of problems.
      That is right. Mosquitos are usually no more than 1 mile from what can become, if it isn't already, a dirty cesspool. In a way, the mosquitos are telling you of an even BIGGER problem looming. If you take care of those water sources you not only, get rid of the mosquitos, get rid of some foul smelling garbage, and potentially get cleaner drinking water, you also get rid of a problem that can breed the next who knows what! That water source could EVEN be under your home, used by things like termites and other vermin and that mosquito could LITERALLY have saved YOUR LIFE, as well as YOUR HOUSE.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        How can the world advance if every single thing that science delves into is seen as a guaranteed problem as opposed to a possible solution?

        Why this constant yearning for a way of life reminiscent of the 1800's?

        How can you live life to the fullest if everything you encounter or is proposed causes you soil your undies?

        I just don't get it - and regardless of any hysterical rants about science destroying the planet as we know it - I never will.

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

          I just don't get it - and regardless of any hysterical rants about science destroying the planet as we know it - I never will.
          NOBODY said you would! Still, WHO CARES?

          How can the world advance if every single thing that science delves into is seen as a guaranteed problem as opposed to a possible solution?

          Why this constant yearning for a way of life reminiscent of the 1800's?
          In the 1920s, people like me spoke against such things, and they disappeared, but YOU can start using them again!

          Radium Cures - museumofquackery.com

          Actually, radium had its place until the 1980s, IIRC.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            NOBODY said you would! Still, WHO CARES?



            In the 1920s, people like me spoke against such things, and they disappeared, but YOU can start using them again!

            Radium Cures - museumofquackery.com

            Actually, radium had its place until the 1980s, IIRC.

            Steve
            Any intelligent responses? Anyone?

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              Any intelligent responses? Anyone?

              Cheers. - Frank

              Why do we assume that the question "What happens after we do this?" hasn't been asked?

              These aren't teenagers with their chemistry sets.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Why do we assume that the question "What happens after we do this?" hasn't been asked?

                These aren't teenagers with their chemistry sets.
                People HERE are asking the question! The question isn't whether the question has been raised. The question is whether it has been researched. The answer here is it HASN'T!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  The answer here is it HASN'T! Steve
                  Well thank you for clearing that up for the rest of the world. I'm happy to know that you are fully aware of which particular questions have and have not been put forth.

                  How I envy your expertise in everything going on in science, the Internet and the world' s societies. You are truly a marvel.

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author butters
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  People HERE are asking the question! The question isn't whether the question has been raised. The question is whether it has been researched. The answer here is it HASN'T!

                  Steve
                  That's why it's called a FUTURE VISION, this implies that this is what the FUTURE may hold what the vision is. Research will OBVIOUSLY be done on the subject before use so it's not even a good question to ask... The question you should be asking what's the benefits and the consequences of altering insects DNA on the world and where does it stop... That's the question.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by butters View Post

                    That's why it's called a FUTURE VISION, this implies that this is what the FUTURE may hold what the vision is. Research will OBVIOUSLY be done on the subject before use so it's not even a good question to ask... The question you should be asking what's the benefits and the consequences of altering insects DNA on the world and where does it stop... That's the question.
                    Wanna bet? So far the company has released these mosquito's in Brazil and the Cayman Islands as trials, and the only results looked for was if they decreased the mosquito numbers (they did), No research has been done or is scheduled to be done on the effects on the food chain or if the modification can be transferred to anything that eats the mosquito or any other environmental risk them may cause.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                    Originally Posted by butters View Post

                    That's the question.
                    Not true. The question is, "What the hell are you doing???"

                    Will you never learn? lol

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author butters
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      Not true. The question is, "What the hell are you doing???"

                      Will you never learn? lol

                      Cheers. - Frank
                      I saw you question it, I thought I was safe from big franks disapproving eye!!

                      I will pose the question tho, if insects spread disease, why, if it works this wouldn't be a good thing?
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                        Originally Posted by butters View Post

                        I saw you question it, I thought I was safe from big franks disapproving eye!!
                        My omnipresence should not surprise you.
                        I will pose the question tho, if insects spread disease, why, if it works this wouldn't be a good thing?
                        Because science is bad. Bad I tell you.

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by butters View Post

                        I saw you question it, I thought I was safe from big franks disapproving eye!!

                        I will pose the question tho, if insects spread disease, why, if it works this wouldn't be a good thing?
                        How will they know it works when they are testing it in an area that has had only one reported case of Dengue Fever in years.
                        Where these mosquito's were released in Brazil and the Cayman's all that was recorded or looked at was if it decreased the mosquito population. They are just assuming it will reduce disease. The mosquito's where released there less then a year ago so there hasn't been enough time to gather sufficient data on their effects other then reducing mosquito populations (for one cycle).
                        Also these mosquito's die pretty quickly so they will have to be reintroduced periodically.
                        What are the effects going up the food chain?
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by butters View Post

                    That's why it's called a FUTURE VISION, this implies that this is what the FUTURE may hold what the vision is. Research will OBVIOUSLY be done on the subject before use so it's not even a good question to ask... The question you should be asking what's the benefits and the consequences of altering insects DNA on the world and where does it stop... That's the question.
                    Yeah, but I don't trust ANY of those guys! Why do people distrust the government, but want to give them more money and power? Why do people distrust the police, but want to disarm the populace to require the police to help? Why do people DISTRUST the companies, but demand that the companies do things, like genetically engineer insects to destroy themselves, or somehow be nicer?

                    As for ME? I want SMALLER government! I want a populace that can protect itself. I want companies able to do ANYTHING that is non invasive, and generally recognized as safe. But things like GMO are too far out there, ESPECIALLY if it is to create a crop that creates antibiotics, creates a drug, or creates resistance to a herbicide.

                    Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                Well, this is going to sound new agish and a bit nuts, but it works!

                If you are outside with nipping mozzies, try this....

                just keep telling yourself that they are not good nor bad, but just are, and then say, but you prefer that they keep their distance!

                I know sounds weird, but mozzies can pick up on our energy fields, and if they sense fear, anger, etc, then that attracts them!

                I have tried this again and again, and it works, l even tried it in the most mozzie infected area on the farm l used to live on, and only one out of probably 100 took a nip. Not bad for half and hour in a swarm of hungry mozzies!


                But if you think that this is crap, before testing it, since mass media doesn't mention it, then get used to being a meal on legs!

                This does work, but the catch is you have to do or say it and believe it every 15 to 30 seconds for it to be affective.

                Frankenmozzies, hopefully this metaphysical trick will still be affective?

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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                  This does work, but the catch is you have to do or say it and believe it every 15 to 30 seconds for it to be affective.
                  This WILL work if you hold your breath while you do it. Mosquitoes are mainly attracted to CO2 (where there is something exhaling, a blood meal can be found) and secondly to fragrances.

                  Energy force fields? Uh, OK. If you say so. :-)

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    This WILL work if you hold your breath while you do it. Mosquitoes are mainly attracted to CO2 (where there is something exhaling, a blood meal can be found) and secondly to fragrances.

                    Energy force fields? Uh, OK. If you say so. :-)

                    Cheers. - Frank
                    Yeah, l know, and l didn't hold my breath and it still works!

                    I even, went to mozzie central on the farm, and thought of nothing in particular, with half a dozen bites within about 5 minutes, (it usually takes them a few minutes to hone in, to breathing, etc) then tried this, with 99% to 100% keeping their distance indefinitely by using this trick!

                    Every time l heard some close by buzzing, l did this, and they flew further back, so it was a come close, do it, fly or swarm further away.

                    This can probably be explained scientifically, but it it tipping its toe into new age stuff. And possibly opens the door a tiny bit for a skeptic that the universe is still a mystery!

                    There is nothing airy-fairy about humans and animals having a weak electromagnetic field around us; our brians generate some electrical power. And mozzies picking up on suttle changes in that field, and what we think or fear, attracts of repells them!

                    But bottom line is, do this no bites or very few at worst, or become an all out buffet for mozzies?

                    I know which one l would pick if l was caught outside with no escape or fly spray!

                    This is a good example of the advantages of doing some research and taking action, instead of listening to mass media and grabbing some fly spray, rollon, etc, if you can of course!

                    Fly my Pretties!
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Why do we assume that the question "What happens after we do this?" hasn't been asked?

                These aren't teenagers with their chemistry sets.
                I'll answer that for you Claude.
                The male mosquito is genetically modified so that after it mates it's offspring will be sterile and die. The only testing that has been done is by the British company (Oxitec) and then only on weather the offspring will be sterile. There has been zero tests or studies done on the effects this may have on fish or mammals that eat mosquito's. There have been zero tests or studies done by anyone outside of Oxitec. So are we suppose to just take Oxitec's word that they are safe?
                This is an experiment to see if the mosquito's can prevent the spread of Dengue Fever, problem there is Dengue Fever has been absent from the Keys for years.
                Yes the question "What happens after we do this" has been asked, it just hasn't been answered by anyone except the company that stands to make financial gains from the mosquito's it is engineering.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  I'll answer that for you Claude.
                  The male mosquito is genetically modified so that after it mates it's offspring will be sterile and die. The only testing that has been done is by the British company (Oxitec) and then only on weather the offspring will be sterile. There has been zero tests or studies done on the effects this may have on fish or mammals that eat mosquito's. There have been zero tests or studies done by anyone outside of Oxitec. So are we suppose to just take Oxitec's word that they are safe?
                  This is an experiment to see if the mosquito's can prevent the spread of Dengue Fever, problem there is Dengue Fever has been absent from the Keys for years.
                  Yes the question "What happens after we do this" has been asked, it just hasn't been answered by anyone except the company that stands to make financial gains from the mosquito's it is engineering.

                  A lot of questions have not been answered.

                  What happens to humans and other animals routinely bitten by GM mosquitos?
                  What happens up and down the food chain when a source of food is no longer available?

                  There are 3,500 named species of mosquito, of which only a couple of hundred bite or bother humans. They live on almost every continent and habitat, and serve important functions in numerous ecosystems. "Mosquitoes have been on Earth for more than 100 million years," says Murphy, "and they have co-evolved with so many species along the way."
                  Why not spend the money on cures or vaccinations for the diseases that a few out of the many carry?
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    A lot of questions have not been answered.

                    What happens to humans and other animals routinely bitten by GM mosquitos?
                    You never saw, "The Fly?"
                    What happens up and down the food chain when a source of food is no longer available?
                    Adapt or perish.
                    Why not spend the money on cures or vaccinations for the diseases that a few out of the many carry?
                    Well, there is a lot of that already underway. Deciding the ratio of budgets can be as political as it is based on science.

                    Personally, There is nothing further down on my 'fear agenda' than GMO mosquitos. But that's just me.

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    A lot of questions have not been answered.

                    What happens to humans and other animals routinely bitten by GM mosquitos?
                    What happens up and down the food chain when a source of food is no longer available?



                    Why not spend the money on cures or vaccinations for the diseases that a few out of the many carry?
                    That isn't really one of the problemsas it's only male mosquitos that are being modified. From what I understand about it the male mates with a female and the male larvae produced are all sterile.
                    It can reduce a population, but not wipe it out.
                    Still they don't know yet if this trait can be transfered to anything that eats mosquitos such as bats. birds, and fish.
                    With the G.E. crops that have Cry Ab in them and the ones immune to round-up you have weeds and insects now that aren't effected by them. They reproduce and you now have super weeds and super bugs, just like viruses have done with antibiotics.
                    A mosquito can go from egg to adult in under 2 weeks. You could end up with super mosquitoes immune to this technology in maybe a year.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                      That isn't really one of the problemsas it's only male mosquitos that are being modified. From what I understand about it the male mates with a female and the male larvae produced are all sterile.
                      It can reduce a population, but not wipe it out.
                      Still they don't know yet if this trait can be transfered to anything that eats mosquitos such as bats. birds, and fish.
                      With the G.E. crops that have Cry Ab in them and the ones immune to round-up you have weeds and insects now that aren't effected by them. They reproduce and you now have super weeds and super bugs, just like viruses have done with antibiotics.
                      A mosquito can go from egg to adult in under 2 weeks. You could end up with super mosquitoes immune to this technology in maybe a year.
                      My biggest concern about it is the application of whatever chemical they use to accomplish this sterilization and it's effect on the rest of the wildlife where it's applied, and its effect on the wildlife that eats the treated mosquitoes.

                      I use the sterilization method for flea control and it works great and doesn't create super fleas, but I wouldn't want to spray it outdoors where other things would or could be affected.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        My biggest concern about it is the application of whatever chemical they use to accomplish this sterilization and it's effect on the rest of the wildlife where it's applied, and its effect on the wildlife that eats the treated mosquitoes.

                        I use the sterilization method for flea control and it works great and doesn't create super fleas, but I wouldn't want to spray it outdoors where other things would or could be affected.
                        Radiation has been used on other problem insects before and it worked, problem is mosquito's are to delicate for the radiation.
                        They don't know what the effects will be on the rest of wildlife.
                        This is another one of those times when science and those who support this have blinders on or tunnel vision. All they are looking at is the short term reduction of the mosquito population and nothing else. They can't even determine if this will curtail the disease it's meant to control as there has only been one reported case of the disease in the keys in somewhere around 15 years. In fact it's hard to find numbers on Dengue Fever in the U.S.. All the numbers I found were for imported cases where the person contracted it outside the country.
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                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                          Just because man is ever learning doesn't mean that he is gaining wisdom and knowledge of the truths of the universe.

                          Hey, we created the A-bomb and nuclear weapons and that certainly has been of the utmost of benefit for mankind, right? If you don't believe me, go look at photos of Chernobyl, or perhaps Japan after the tsunami caused nuclear power plant meltdowns.

                          Sometimes you just have to be wise enough to leave some things alone!


                          Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                          Radiation has been used on other problem insects before and it worked, problem is mosquito's are to delicate for the radiation.
                          They don't know what the effects will be on the rest of wildlife.
                          This is another one of those times when science and those who support this have blinders on or tunnel vision. All they are looking at is the short term reduction of the mosquito population and nothing else. They can't even determine if this will curtail the disease it's meant to control as there has only been one reported case of the disease in the keys in somewhere around 15 years. In fact it's hard to find numbers on Dengue Fever in the U.S.. All the numbers I found were for imported cases where the person contracted it outside the country.
                          ACTUALLY, insects are pretty hardy for the radiation! That is one reason they can do this, and cockroaches were EVEN tested by "mythbusters" and lived trough quite an ordeal. What is "too delicate" is CELLS, including HUMAN ONES! Those cockroaches lived through exposure that would kill humans.

                          But radiation can spread, even to the female. And what of people near where the insects are exposed? With HUMANS, they are SUPPOSED to give you covering for some areas, and they target and limit exposure. The other people go to a SHIELDED area. WHY? I mean it WON'T kill them! NOPE, they don't know what other problems it COULD cause. One reason we don't generally see radium anymore is because the painters tipped the brushes with their tongues and got various maladies.

                          Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Why do we assume that the question "What happens after we do this?" hasn't been asked?

                These aren't teenagers with their chemistry sets.

                Claude, the general populace has become a tad wary of scientific discovery. Scientists can't keep a straight answer on whether we should eat eggs. Yesterday, they'll kill you dead. Today, they're the best damn thing for you. The '70s, watch out for the coming Ice Age. It will kill us all. Today? We're all going to burn in a global furnace.


                Some people see this as "Today's indisputable Science is tomorrow's 'Hey, about those eggs...'"


                That's not to say all science is eventually proven wrong, but the fact that many "facts" end up in the trash gives some of us pause.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Claude, the general populace has become a tad wary of scientific discovery. Scientists can't keep a straight answer on whether we should eat eggs. Yesterday, they'll kill you dead. Today, they're the best damn thing for you. The '70s, watch out for the coming Ice Age. It will kill us all. Today? We're all going to burn in a global furnace.


                  Some people see this as "Today's indisputable Science is tomorrow's 'Hey, about those eggs...'"


                  That's not to say all science is eventually proven wrong, but the fact that many "facts" end up in the trash gives some of us pause.
                  And there is a reason that science keeps changing the story. Science is an ever evolving process of learning.. We know more today than a year ago. Testing techniques get better, measurements get more accurate. fewer mistakes are made. So, scientific consensus evolves.

                  And some of it isn't really science. The egg thing is probably influenced by industry.

                  Scientists can't keep an answer...because they keep discovering better information.

                  Scientists, are human....and can fake evidence to support their pet theory, or alter their results because of funding. And sometimes they get excited by preliminary findings..and it gets promoted as hard fact. How many new cures for cancer have we read about..that were never mentioned again? Hundreds...maybe more. But it gets written up, because it's a good story. And when the researcher finds out that his pet theory is a dead end, he may not report it, out of embarrassment. And...it isn't a good news story.


                  My point is, that always having the reaction, "Science is out to destroy us", isn't helpful.

                  Added a tad later;

                  You said, "Claude, the general populace has become a tad wary of scientific discovery". I agree. But the reason is primarily that the majority of people are science illiterate. I don't mean that they are stupid. They are simply not interested in science. That's where a lot of the wariness comes from, in the general population.

                  There is some really educated wariness as well. But most of us don't know enough to know which is which. And with the mosquito thing? I'm in that group.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    My point is, that always having the reaction, "Science is out to destroy us", isn't helpful.
                    If it weren't for science we would have all perished, long ago. Some people just don't know how to show their appreciation. :-)

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    And there is a reason that science keeps changing the story. Science is an ever evolving process of learning.. We know more today than a year ago. Testing techniques get better, measurements get more accurate. fewer mistakes are made. So, scientific consensus evolves.

                    Precisely. Which is why some people get squirrely when you want to start f-ing with the ecosystem.

                    And some of it isn't really science. The egg thing is probably influenced by industry.

                    There's no industry that might want to influence modified mosquitoes?

                    Scientists can't keep an answer...because they keep discovering better information.

                    Sort of my point.

                    Scientists, are human....and can fake evidence to support their pet theory, or alter their results because of funding. And sometimes they get excited by preliminary findings..and it gets promoted as hard fact. How many new cures for cancer have we read about..that were never mentioned again? Hundreds...maybe more. But it gets written up, because it's a good story. And when the researcher finds out that his pet theory is a dead end, he may not report it, out of embarrassment. And...it isn't a good news story.

                    Which might make people more resistant to new scientific theories, no?


                    My point is, that always having the reaction, "Science is out to destroy us", isn't helpful.


                    And my point was simply to highlight why some people might think that way.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                      There's no industry that might want to influence modified mosquitoes?
                      .
                      Don't know. Not all scientific research is altruistic. Some of it is to produce a desired result.
                      If we know who funded the research, it would help clarify the purpose of the research.

                      But threads like this tend to be more in the "Science is bad. They are playing God. It isn't natural. " vein. And as a first reaction, it's not very profitable.



                      " infantile luddites"....I like that.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                      I'm all for science, but the difficulty with scientific progress is that advances in science haven't been matched by advances in human nature or ethics. And they never will be.

                      That's why maintaining a degree of healthy skepticism is...er, healthy.

                      .
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                • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Claude, the general populace has become a tad wary of scientific discovery. Scientists can't keep a straight answer on whether we should eat eggs. Yesterday, they'll kill you dead. Today, they're the best damn thing for you. The '70s, watch out for the coming Ice Age. It will kill us all. Today? We're all going to burn in a global furnace.


                  Some people see this as "Today's indisputable Science is tomorrow's 'Hey, about those eggs...'"


                  That's not to say all science is eventually proven wrong, but the fact that many "facts" end up in the trash gives some of us pause.
                  This is why I laugh at anyone who insists that "the science is this" just because they have read the media dispensed view of it. There are usually two sides and it's not "this is the science" -- it's which scientists do you think have the best handle on an issue. Global warming/global cooling -- nobody is stupid enough to think that climate on earth isn't always changing. There's just as many very qualified scientists who say we're going into cooling as there are on the side of warming. When I took astronomy before this was an issue, it was taught that we will either warm or cool depending on the same factors.

                  What we hear about "science" is only the side that favors the political agenda of the time. That isn't knowing squat about the "science" - it's an opinion. Period. Getting your science solely from a source that stands to gain a lot of bucks from their side of an issue is not "knowing the science". At all. We hear people raging every day that have no clue what they're raging about other than what they heard on a TV channel.

                  There are also plans to release GMO Salmon into the wild, and there is not one clue what the effects will be on the envirornment -- or on the people and animals who eat them. If they had any clues about the dangers of GMO corn and soy when they released that, they sure didn't make it publicly known. A lot of independent study has had to be done to learn exactly how disastrous it is, to anything that eats it and the soil, climate, etc.

                  Pharms release experimental drugs on people all the time. The FDA allows it. They are supposed to watch how much damage the drug does, submit research within xx amount of time, etc, but in the first release it is experimenting on the population given the drug. That's how they get the "tests" etc. done that allow them to know the effects.

                  It surprises me that so many want to discuss science that have no clue of scientific procedures, policies, laws, etc. People are still of the opinion that GMOs are safe even though, they're being banned in country after country. Why do you think that whole countries are just "paranoid"? The US isn't the only country with skilled research scientists. The laws are not as strict here about these things as some countries. Anyone who thinks that consequences of actions are known when something is allowed to be done is fooling themselves.
                  Signature

                  Sal
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                  Beyond the Path

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                  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                    Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                    What we hear about "science" is only the side that favors the political agenda of the time. That isn't knowing squat about the "science" - it's an opinion. Period. Getting your science solely from a source that stands to gain a lot of bucks from their side of an issue is not "knowing the science". At all. We hear people raging every day that have no clue what they're raging about other than what they heard on a TV channel.

                    Pharms release experimental drugs on people all the time. The FDA allows it. They are supposed to watch how much damage the drug does, submit research within xx amount of time, etc, but in the first release it is experimenting on the population given the drug. That's how they get the "tests" etc. done that allow them to know the effects.

                    It surprises me that so many want to discuss science that have no clue of scientific procedures, policies, laws, etc. People are still of the opinion that GMOs are safe even though, they're being banned in country after country. Why do you think that whole countries are just "paranoid"? The US isn't the only country with skilled research scientists. The laws are not as strict here about these things as some countries. Anyone who thinks that consequences of actions are known when something is allowed to be done is fooling themselves.
                    Thanks Sal, maybe some of the trolls here that are set in their ways, might get it, but it is unlikely!

                    Snake oil salesman can kill and maim hundreds, maybe thousands, but Doctors can kill or maim millions!

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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                      Thanks Sal, maybe some of the trolls here that are set in their ways, might get it, but it is unlikely!

                      Snake oil salesman can kill and maim hundreds, maybe thousands, but Doctors can kill or maim millions!
                      And create a better world for billions.

                      Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author butters
                      Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                      Snake oil salesman can kill and maim hundreds, maybe thousands, but Doctors can kill or maim millions!

                      That's just poor logic... It really is.
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                      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                        Originally Posted by butters View Post

                        That's just poor logic... It really is.
                        Hmmm, l wish it was....

                        Medication Errors Harming Millions, Report Says

                        A medical report in 1998 estimated that adverse reactions to prescription drugs are killing about 106,000 Americans each year -- roughly three times as many as are killed by automobiles.[1] This makes prescription drugs the fourth leading killer in the U.S., after heart disease, cancer, and stroke.
                        Prescription Drugs that Kill: Another Kind of Drug Problem | Alexander Law Group | San Jose | San Francisco


                        This leads back to the question of how many people die of Cancer in hospital and how many die of complications of Cancer treatments in hospital?

                        Don't think l want to know the answer to that one!

                        But, true 106k of Americans dieing every year is a drop in the bucket compared to the ones who survive!

                        Puts a snake oil salesman to shame.

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                        • Profile picture of the author butters
                          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                          Hmmm, l wish it was....

                          Medication Errors Harming Millions, Report Says



                          Prescription Drugs that Kill: Another Kind of Drug Problem | Alexander Law Group | San Jose | San Francisco


                          This leads back to the question of how many people die of Cancer in hospital and how many die of complications of Cancer treatments in hospital?

                          Don't think l want to know the answer to that one!

                          But, true 106k of Americans dieing every year is a drop in the bucket compared to the ones who survive!

                          Puts a snake oil salesman to shame.

                          You should really look up the definition of a snake oil sales man... In short its classed as fraudulent medication, quackery or charlatans. I wounder how many people around the world die each year through counterfeit drugs? I would guess quite a lot. I wounder how many die each year by people believing in a medication which has no beneficial effects for them? I'm guessing quite a lot. You trying to compare something which is actually un-compareable but lets put it in perspective for you. If you took 100,000 doctors and 100,000 snake oil salesman, lets make it so the ratio is 1:1. Can you seriously sit there and say that the snake oil salesman will have a lower death rate then the doctors? I don't think you can, history has kinda proven that one...
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                      Thanks Sal, maybe some of the trolls here that are set in their ways, might get it, but it is unlikely!

                      Snake oil salesman can kill and maim hundreds, maybe thousands, but Doctors can kill or maim millions!

                      Why that's just too funny. I suppose you expected to open a thread or post in one with your nonsense and everyone would just simply take your quack citations and your opinion and politely agree with you.

                      ... and if they don't, they're trolls. Right. Modern medicine has harmed some and cured millions. Don't like Big Pharma? Go to the third world countries where they have little to No Pharma and are literally dying from ordinary diseases that most of us consider highly treatable. You can't say that about Snake Oil Salesmen. So, go ahead and experiment with your own health and well being and follow whatever quack and junk science you want, and we'll do the same, thank you. You can't say that about Snake Oil Salesmen.

                      So, you got your links and I've got mine. Go to Africa or any other third world country for medical care if you don't like it where you're at.

                      Africa, which has a quarter of the world's disease burden but only 3 percent of its health care workers, is affected the most. Across Africa, AIDS patients are often left unattended for days in rudimentary clinics staffed by a single overworked nurse and a few untrained orderlies. Doctors often visit only once every few weeks.

                      "There is a clinic run by a nurse who is over 70 years old, and she can hardly remember what she did with a patient yesterday," said Dr. Pheello Lethola, an HIV and tuberculosis specialist in Lesotho, where almost one-quarter of the population is infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. "Yet she still runs the clinic because there is no one willing to there."

                      The lack of medical workers in Africa is most pronounced in regions where AIDS has whittled away the ranks of health workers.

                      "A nurse taking care of 400 patients is paid $3 a day in Malawi - not enough even for a bag of maize," said Moses Massaquoi, a doctor with the aid group Médecins Sans Frontières in Malawi. "So health care workers move overseas or work private companies here."

                      WHO officials said in a report in July that international aid to Africa should be used to increase doctors' salaries and to bolster recruitment and training. The report also said that efforts to connect African hospitals with laboratories and specialists abroad through the Internet and telephone, a practice known as telemedicine, might ease cost pressures in countries that lack skilled personnel.

                      In Afghanistan, some of the best public hospitals cannot afford disinfectant or rubber gloves, and doctors and nurses do not earn enough to feed their families.

                      In India, patients may spend days lined up for tests and drugs at New Delhi hospitals because there are not enough doctors and nurses to attend to them all.

                      "Many end up sleeping outside the clinics, and we are now looking at building shelters so people can come and stay," said one AIDS activist, Loon Gangte, adding that some patients abandoned treatment because the waiting was too grueling.
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                      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                        You should really look up the definition of a snake oil sales man... In short its classed as fraudulent medication, quackery or charlatans. I wounder how many people around the world die each year through counterfeit drugs? I would guess quite a lot. I wounder how many die each year by people believing in a medication which has no beneficial effects for them? I'm guessing quite a lot. You trying to compare something which is actually un-compareable but lets put it in perspective for you. If you took 100,000 doctors and 100,000 snake oil salesman, lets make it so the ratio is 1:1. Can you seriously sit there and say that the snake oil salesman will have a lower death rate then the doctors? I don't think you can, history has kinda proven that one...
                        Ok, l agree that equally if both had a million sick people at their disposal the ratios would probably be similar.

                        Least l hope that the medical profession would have better numbers?

                        But this gets back to the point that trusting a Doctor completely, is risky and researching all alternatives and picking the highest success rate one, is less risky.

                        I am sure that if l went to a doctor in England in 1903 with a burn, l would be treated with a irradiated swab. And get Cancer as a result!

                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        Why that's just too funny. I suppose you expected to open a thread or post in one with your nonsense and everyone would just simply take your quack citations and your opinion and politely agree with you.

                        ... and if they don't, they're trolls. Right. Modern medicine has harmed some and cured millions. Don't like Big Pharma? Go to the third world countries where they have little to No Pharma and are literally dying from ordinary diseases that most of us consider highly treatable. You can't say that about Snake Oil Salesmen. So, go ahead and experiment with your own health and well being and follow whatever quack and junk science you want, and we'll do the same, thank you. You can't say that about Snake Oil Salesmen.
                        No, they are Trolls, if they say some sweeping and naive remark about a certain option for health care!

                        Ignore all the evidence that goes against their remark, and stay stuck in their viewpoint!


                        True, l will continue to follow the quack and junk science and look a lot younger and healthier than the general population who don't!

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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                          No, they are Trolls, if they say some sweeping and naive remark about a certain option for health care!

                          Ignore all the evidence that goes against their remark, and stay stuck in their viewpoint!

                          True, l will continue to follow the quack and junk science and look a lot younger and healthier than the general population who don't!
                          Sweeping and naive remarks are exactly what you've been doing, as well as ignoring evidence and staying stuck in your viewpoint.
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                          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Sweeping and naive remarks are exactly what you've been doing, as well as ignoring evidence and staying stuck in your viewpoint.
                            That may be true, but it's different when he does it.

                            Cheers. - Frank
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                          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Sweeping and naive remarks are exactly what you've been doing, as well as ignoring evidence and staying stuck in your viewpoint.
                            Well, l said "this doesn't cuase this cancer" and gave good supportive evidence. And l considered all evidence presented, but nothing l read, sufficiently tour that remark and evidence down!

                            I was reasonably confident that it was a correct statement, and still do.

                            I didn't give a trolllike remark that everyone here is a moron because they believed in this side of the coin!

                            Or said that all mainstream medicine is BS, blah, blah.


                            I will trust Doctors if good supportive evidence is available, and little to no good evidence goes against it!

                            And l have to emphasize "good" not some crap site online that trashes a medical procedure for the sake of getting up in Google rankings!

                            Some review site online are full of hot air, and only knock something to that end!


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                        • Profile picture of the author butters
                          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                          Ok, l agree that equally if both had a million sick people at their disposal the ratios would probably be similar.

                          Least l hope that the medical profession would have better numbers?

                          But this gets back to the point that trusting a Doctor completely, is risky and researching all alternatives and picking the highest success rate one, is less risky.

                          I am sure that if l went to a doctor in England in 1903 with a burn, l would be treated with a irradiated swab. And get Cancer as a result!



                          No, they are Trolls, if they say some sweeping and naive remark about a certain option for health care!

                          Ignore all the evidence that goes against their remark, and stay stuck in their viewpoint!


                          True, l will continue to follow the quack and junk science and look a lot younger and healthier than the general population who don't!

                          Similar? Please don't be silly, you know full well that doctors would have a much lower death rate due to everything at their disposal, ranging from: Antibiotics, anti virals, equipment like pacemakers and all medical technology. Look, I'm not saying you should trust your doctor completely, no, go do your research and learn about your problem so your informed. What I am saying is this, many alternative medicine which remain alternative are that for a reason... There have been many alternative medicines approved by the FDA and NHS making them main stream medicine. Stop researching miracles and start learning about your subject, that way when your doctor recommends something you can challenge him with actual facts.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                            Originally Posted by butters View Post

                            Similar? Please don't be silly, .
                            Butters; I love watching this. It brings back memories of me, arguing with Shane.

                            Soon you will weaken....soon you will tire........

                            And eventually, you'll be one of the people, watching the new guy, try to reason with Shane.

                            Shane will never weaken. He has a will of Iron. The last time I tried to reason with him, I was in the hospital for three days!

                            Save yourself!
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                            • Profile picture of the author butters
                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                              Butters; I love watching this. It brings back memories of me, arguing with Shane.

                              Soon you will weaken....soon you will tire........

                              And eventually, you'll be one of the people, watching the new guy, try to reason with Shane.

                              Shane will never weaken. He has a will of Iron. The last time I tried to reason with him, I was in the hospital for three days!

                              Save yourself!
                              I'm a student, I got all day I will not weaken!! I may get drunk and my arguement make no sense but I will never give in!
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                              • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                Originally Posted by butters View Post

                                Similar? Please don't be silly, you know full well that doctors would have a much lower death rate due to everything at their disposal, ranging from: Antibiotics, anti virals, equipment like pacemakers and all medical technology. Look, I'm not saying you should trust your doctor completely, no, go do your research and learn about your problem so your informed. What I am saying is this, many alternative medicine which remain alternative are that for a reason... There have been many alternative medicines approved by the FDA and NHS making them main stream medicine. Stop researching miracles and start learning about your subject, that way when your doctor recommends something you can challenge him with actual facts.
                                Yeah, ok, you are right, a snake oil salesman with placebo cure all's, won't compare with what Doctors have!

                                And true if l went to see a doctor, about something big and nasty, l would research the hell out of it first. But, with current eco/phar/shiny BMW, thinking on the Doctors side, l am not sure how much ground l would cover?



                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                Butters; I love watching this. It brings back memories of me, arguing with Shane.

                                Soon you will weaken....soon you will tire........

                                And eventually, you'll be one of the people, watching the new guy, try to reason with Shane.

                                Shane will never weaken. He has a will of Iron. The last time I tried to reason with him, I was in the hospital for three days!

                                Save yourself!
                                LIAR, CLAUDE, it was 3.5 days, you forgot to mention the arsenic laced jelly dunuts!

                                And for the record l did turn Claudes thinking around on whether Mars has a blue sky or not, it took a year, but the evidence eventually came up! Well, we had a discussion, and cleaned up the blood, then l waited for NASA to post something!


                                Originally Posted by butters View Post

                                I'm a student, I got all day I will not weaken!! I may get drunk and my arguement make no sense but I will never give in!
                                You are right l tend to cave in and give up after 10 years of trying!

                                PS in reality l have been going after certain goals for more than 20 years, and eventhough l might be going nuts, l keep at it. Persistence is my greatest strength, or weakness?
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                                • Profile picture of the author butters
                                  Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                                  And true if l went to see a doctor, about something big and nasty, l would research the hell out of it first. But, with current eco/phar/shiny BMW, thinking on the Doctors side, l am not sure how much ground l would cover?



                                  You are right l tend to cave in and give up after 10 years of trying!
                                  Oh that's your problem, it's not even the science... Let me enlighten you of most of the people who produce papers on clinical trials etc... Currently 4 of my lecturers are running clinical trials, a phd student is also involved in one for his doctorate. Charities run clinical trials, non profit organisations. Your problem isn't with the science, your problem is with what they get paid. Doctors findings are based on people's studies who don't drive BMWs and bentleys... The fact that you have brought up doctors salaries on a number of occasions shows that your arguement isn't with science, it's all about the money.

                                  I see we have a long arguement ahead of us
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    I say just kill em all. Never met mosquito I liked.
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    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
      Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

      I say just kill em all. Never met mosquito I liked.
      The feelings are not mutual though when they see a shirtless, 5,000-course banquet coming towards them . . backwards!
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  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
    Banned
    Anyone that knows anything about nutrition has known for decades that eggs are about as perfect a food source as there is on the planet - and left it at that. We have also known that eating cholesterol does not raise your cholesterol. We are not all buffeted by the winds of 'present day' beliefs.

    Has anyone ever thought to ask themselves what the reason may be that so many animals seek out eggs as their primary food source, regardless of the major obstacles that can stand in their way of reaching them?

    Cheers. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

      Anyone that knows anything about nutrition has known for decades that eggs are about as perfect a food source as there is on the planet - and left it at that. We have also known that eating cholesterol does not raise your cholesterol. We are not all buffeted by the winds of 'present day' beliefs.

      Has anyone ever thought to ask themselves what the reason may be that so many animals seek out eggs as their primary food source, regardless of the major obstacles that can stand in their way of reaching them?

      Cheers. - Frank

      I agree with you. However, the AHA and the scientific community have thought differently for decades. Only in recent years has there been a backing away from dietary-cholesterol-as-evil.


      But that's the heart of what I'm saying: You say we are not all buffeted by the wings of 'present day' beliefs. But current science was telling us for decades that eggs were bad. This wasn't "belief." This was scientific fact from very trusted sources.


      So, earlier in the thread, you ask, "How can the world advance if every single thing that science delves into is seen as a guaranteed problem as opposed to a possible solution?" Which, in essence, is saying, "Trust science."


      Then you say, "We are not all buffeted by the winds of 'present day' beliefs," when I bring up science related to cholesterol. Here you're basically saying, "Don't trust science."


      Frank, if you don't know when to trust science, how are the rest of us infantile luddites supposed to?
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        I agree with you. However, the AHA and the scientific community have thought differently for decades. Only in recent years has there been a backing away from dietary-cholesterol-as-evil.
        No - more like "Some in the AHA and SC." There are no absolutes when polling those communities. Ever!
        But that's the heart of what I'm saying: You say we are not all buffeted by the wings of 'present day' beliefs. But current science was telling us for decades that eggs were bad. This wasn't "belief." This was scientific fact from very trusted sources.
        Some were saying it. Not all. You have to determine your own beliefs from the opposing viewpoints and maintain a steadfast opinion until presented with enough relevant, demonstrable information to sway you, lest you be constantly buffeted. I read all I could find, factored in what I knew from nature and made a decision I was comfortable with - and never varied my opinion. I still haven't. Three 'over-easy' each morning is one of the true joys of life.
        So, earlier in the thread, you ask, "How can the world advance if every single thing that science delves into is seen as a guaranteed problem as opposed to a possible solution?" Which, in essence, is saying, "Trust science."
        Trust that they are not out to destroy the human species at every turn due to some maniacal plot or an insatiable lust for money. That's insanely paranoid and unrealistic.
        Then you say, "We are not all buffeted by the winds of 'present day' beliefs," when I bring up science related to cholesterol. Here you're basically saying, "Don't trust science."
        Not at all. Do your own research at whatever level you can, make a decision and trust in your own abilities to gather enough accurate facts to be comfortable with that decision. That does not mean that you are going to bat a thousand, but you have to somewhat live your life on your own personal beliefs, derived at through a common sense approach to developing those beliefs. I trust science but I don't jump through every new hoop they offer, nor do I run in fear from each new position paper. Death generally comes slowly. No need to implement drastic changes made in haste from something you heard on the 6 o'clock news.
        Frank, if you don't know when to trust science, how are the rest of us infantile luddites supposed to?
        While I will grant you that I have an intellectually superior vantage point from which to start, even those of you with the intellectual prowess of a clam should be able to garner enough facts to compile something akin to a personal belief system and adhere to it for more than 20 minutes.

        Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        But that's the heart of what I'm saying: You say we are not all buffeted by the wings of 'present day' beliefs. But current science was telling us for decades that eggs were bad. This wasn't "belief." This was scientific fact from very trusted sources.
        That's a great example.

        I don't know the specific answer. But I know how mistakes like this can come about, from very good science. This is just an example of a process. I know nothing about eggs or cholesterol.

        Eggs are tested, and are found to be loaded with cholesterol.
        Autopsies are done, and heart attack victims have arteries full of cholesterol.
        Heart attacks are caused by cholesterol + eggs are full of cholesterol = Eggs are bad for you.
        Two facts, and the connection is made.

        But maybe eggs have another substance that prevents cholesterol from coating arteries.
        Or the cholesterol clogging arteries isn't precisely the same as found in eggs.

        Or......a test was done years ago, a researcher wrote a report...and it was accepted as gospel, until someone else did a better test. Maybe the test was faulty. Maybe the researcher doesn't like eggs.

        But with each year, we learn more. And our view of reality gets clearer. Not clear...clearer.

        Again, I know nothing of eggs. It's just an exercise.

        I wonder how much of what we absolutely believe to be true today, will be shown to be nonsense 100 years from now?

        My estimate is that 70% of the facts that I hold to be absolutely true, are simply wrong.
        I wish I knew which ones they are.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          But maybe eggs have another substance that prevents cholesterol from coating arteries.
          Correct. It's lecithin.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Correct. It's lecithin.

            Cheers. - Frank
            As long as it's not genetically modified lecithin...Put out by Big Lecithin.
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              As long as it's not genetically modified lecithin...Put out by Big Lecithin.
              That''s true. There actually is such a thing as GMO lecithin.

              Additionally, too much lecithin, GMO or otherwise can cause heart attacks, or so I have heard some scientists say. :-)

              Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author NRabosa
    I see a B-monster movie in the works... the future seems grim, but exciting. Following this thread. gotta get my popcorn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    There's no doubt mosquitos kill a lot of people. But they are also a vital part of the food chain.


    I think there's already a better way to deal with mosquitos that protects people and doesn't pose a possible risk to the food chain. Sports writer Rick Reilly started a program called "Nothing But Nets" where you can donate $10 and buy a mosquito net for a family that needs protection.


    Nothing But Nets : Rick Reilly
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    Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
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    • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      There's no doubt mosquitos kill a lot of people. But they are also a vital part of the food chain.


      I think there's already a better way to deal with mosquitos that protects people and doesn't pose a possible risk to the food chain. Sports writer Rick Reilly started a program called "Nothing But Nets" where you can donate $10 and buy a mosquito net for a family that needs protection.


      Nothing But Nets : Rick Reilly
      I am all for wiping em out.
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