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Would You Prefer Lethal Injection, Firing Squad Or Nitrogen Gas?

by positivenegative

Posted: 9 years ago 65 replies

OFF TOPIC

|

Or my wife can do it quicker than any of those with her roast dinner.

Utah passes firing squad bill

Mike Anthony 9 years ago

I did a double take when I saw this post. It read like a Jag Social question thread which is funny considering.
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- positivenegative 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
  
  I did a double take when I saw this post. It read like a Jag Social question thread which is funny considering.
  
  Jag and funny don't sit well in the same sentence.
  
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  Joe Mobley 9 years ago
  
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yukon Banned 9 years ago

Would You Prefer Lethal Injection, Firing Squad Or Nitrogen Gas?

No

......................................
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Banned 9 years ago

I rather be bored to death.

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positivenegative 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

I rather be bored to death.

I'm sure you've got a mirror in the house somewhere.
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- Mike Anthony 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by positivenegative
  
  I'm sure you've got a mirror in the house somewhere.
  
  I was just about to tell him he opened a door he really didn't want to open
  
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9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

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I rather be bored to death.

The book "The Collected Sayings Of Professor Carpet" would do the trick, however it's been banned by the Geneva Convention as being too cruel for any human being to be subjected to.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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The book "The Collected Sayings Of Professor Carpet" would do the trick, however it's been banned by the Geneva Convention as being too cruel for any human being to be subjected to.

I don't know, it doesn't sound too bad, so far.....here is a snippet!

The Red's, Ball's.

The Big's Red's, Ball's.

The Big's Red's, Juicy......ok, maybe you are right!!!

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yukon Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

I rather be bored to death.

Step #1.
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- tagiscom 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by yukon
  
  Step #1.
  
  And....
  
  Step #2!
  
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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

I rather be bored to death.

Imagine how we feel. Please - show us some mercy.

Cheers. - Frank
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9 years ago

I choose oxygen Gas.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

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I choose oxygen Gas.

That can kill you just as easily as nitrogen, methane, or Claude's flatulence.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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That can kill you just as easily as nitrogen, methane, or Claude's flatulence.

I was about to ask you how and why you procured the last "item" for testing but decided I didn't want the mental image haunting me for the rest of my life.

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9 years ago

I dont get invoved with such nonsense questions. ( well I guess I did with posting here lol)

It like asking who would you rather die, your Mother or Father.

Its not going to happen for any of us here ( at least I think

) and people try to make light of something that if they actually were in that position would whine like little bitches with terror running throughout their body .

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positivenegative

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

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I dont get invoved with such nonsense questions. ( well I guess I did with posting here lol)

It like asking who would you rather die, your Mother or Father.

Its not going to happen for any of us here ( at least I think

) and people try to make light of something that if they actually were in that position would whine like little bitches with terror running throughout their body .

It was a tongue-in-cheek headline, leading to a serious article regarding some States choosing alternatives to lethal injections for death sentences. Maybe you missed the article, in your haste to post your own condescending and crass opinionated reply.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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That can kill you just as easily as nitrogen, methane, or Claude's flatulence.

I thought about Oxygen toxicity as well. At least Nitrogen wouldn't irritate the lungs, and it would...HEY!..... My name is Claude!

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

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HEY!..... My name is Claude!

What a bizarre coincidence (he says as he whistles nonchalantly and stares off into space).

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9 years ago

I personally think capital punishment is wrong.

so my answer is neither and thank goodness I'm Canadian

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

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I personally think capital punishment is wrong.

so my answer is neither and thank goodness I'm Canadian

I personally think murder, torture and rape are wrong and wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over the execution of criminals like below.

With five people now held hostage in the basement, Pierre told Andrews to get something from their van. Andrews returned with a bottle in a brown paper bag, from which Pierre poured a cup of blue liquid. Pierre ordered Orren to administer the liquid to the other hostages, but he refused, and was bound, gagged, and left face-down on the basement floor.

Pierre and Andrews then propped each of the victims into sitting positions and forced them to drink the liquid, telling them it was vodka laced with sleeping pills. Rather, it was liquid Drano. The moment it touched the hostages' lips, enormous blisters rose, and it began to burn their tongues and throats and peel away the flesh around their mouths. Ansley, still begging for her life, was forced to drink the drain cleaner too, although she was reported (by Orren Walker) to have coughed less than the other victims. Pierre and Andrews tried to duct-tape the hostages' mouths shut to hold quantities of drain cleaner in and to silence their screams, but pus oozing from the blisters prevented the adhesive from sticking. Orren Walker was the last to be given the drain cleaner, but seeing what was happening to the other hostages, he allowed it to pour out of his mouth and then mimicked the convulsions and screams of his son and fellow hostages.

Pierre became angry because the deaths were taking too long and were too loud and messy, so he shot both Carol and Cortney Naisbitt in the backs of their heads, proving fatal for Carol but leaving Cortney alive. Pierre then shot at Orren Walker but missed. He then fatally shot Stanley before again shooting at Orren, this time grazing the back of his head.

Pierre then took Ansley to the far corner of the basement, forced her at gunpoint to remove her clothes, then repeatedly and brutally raped her after telling Andrews to clear out for 30 minutes. When he was done, he allowed her to use the bathroom while he watched, then dragged her, still naked, back to the other hostages, threw her on her face, and fatally shot her in the back of the head.[6]

Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a ballpoint pen into Orren's ear, and Pierre stomped it until it punctured his eardrum, broke, and exited the side of his throat. Pierre and Andrews then went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and departed.

This is the way Canada does it

A journalist has tracked down a notorious female serial killer, and found she is living on a tropical island, is remarried, and has three young children, one of whom she is still breastfeeding. Karla Homolka is one of Canada's most horrific serial killers. When Karla was in her early 20s, she and her then-husband, Paul Bernardo, abducted, raped, tortured, and killed two teenage girls. They also drugged and raped Karla's own younger sister, Tammy, who died as a result of the drugs they fed her. Paul remains in prison, but Karla struck a plea deal with authorities that allowed her to serve only 12 years in prison. This is the first time it's been known that she has remarried and, shockingly, has three children.

Karla originally convinced authorities that she was forced to do the crimes by Paul. But it was later proven that she was a willing participant -- including raping the women herself. And raping her own SISTER. Any murder is horrific, but these are far from "young, dumb, and made a horrible mistake" murders. These are calculated, cruel, and show a complete lack of any kind of human feeling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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What a bizarre coincidence (he says as he whistles nonchalantly and stares off into space).

I really, really, really feel sorry for any new Off Topic Forum member, with the name Claude. That poor guy wouldn't survive the onslaught of "Friendly Fire".

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

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I really, really, really feel sorry for any new Off Topic Forum member, with the name Claude. That poor guy wouldn't survive the onslaught of "Friendly Fire".

That's why you will always be Joe to me.

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socialentry Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

That's why you will always be Joe to me.

Why so friendly all of the sudden WC toward Joe?
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Banned 9 years ago

When I read of the problems they're having with lethal injection, my first thought was "isn't a firing squad better than that?" Some of those botched lethal injections have taken 20 minutes to two hours to die. That seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me. Wouldn't a firing squad be very fast in comparison to any of the other methods?

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

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Wouldn't a firing squad be very fast in comparison to any of the other methods?

Not necessarily. If the victim doesn't die from the initial blast, the "leader" of the squad walks up to the victim and shoots them through the head, which ironically would be a quicker and therefore more humane way of doing it in the first place.

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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Not necessarily. If the victim doesn't die from the initial blast, the "leader" of the squad walks up to the victim and shoots them through the head, which ironically would be a quicker and therefore more humane way of doing it in the first place.

Does that ever happen? Wouldn't you have to hire a squad of really bad shooters to all miss vital targets?

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NRabosa 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Does that ever happen? Wouldn't you have to hire a squad of really bad shooters to all miss vital targets?

Prolly because the shooters aren't bad... it's just that the dude's one tough criminal, a few bullets just wouldn't put him down?
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9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

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Does that ever happen? Wouldn't you have to hire a squad of really bad shooters to all miss vital targets?

It must've happened enough times in the past for them to have come up with that way of doing it.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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It must've happened enough times in the past for them to have come up with that way of doing it.

I thought, when people were shot, that a small target was pinned directly over the heart, they were seated in a fixed position, and a marksman was shooting a rifle in a fixed position...making missing almost impossible. At least in modern times, in this country. I watched a documentary on it. But I could be mistaken.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

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I thought, when people were shot, that a small target was pinned directly over the heart, they were seated in a fixed position, and a marksman was shooting a rifle in a fixed position...making missing almost impossible. At least in modern times, in this country. I watched a documentary on it. But I could be mistaken.

I'm no expert on firing squad protocol, but it's possible that a particular squad member might not aim for a vital organ so that he wouldn't feel personally responsible for the killing. I think I read somewhere that one rifle (chosen at random and unidentified to the firers) was sometimes loaded with blanks, to help ease the conscience of any morally uncertain shooters.

.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

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I'm no expert on firing squad protocol, but it's possible that a particular squad member might not aim for a vital organ so that he wouldn't feel personally responsible for the killing. I think I read somewhere that one rifle (chosen at random and unidentified to the firers) was sometimes loaded with blanks, to help ease the conscience of any morally uncertain shooters.

.

I think I read that too. I'm just too lazy to look it up. I'd rather argue, based on speculation.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

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I thought, when people were shot, that a small target was pinned directly over the heart, they were seated in a fixed position, and a marksman was shooting a rifle in a fixed position...making missing almost impossible. At least in modern times, in this country. I watched a documentary on it. But I could be mistaken.

At the moment there is a big kerfuffle over two Aussie guys who were caught smuggling heroin in Indonesia. They are awaiting execution by this method, and that is what happens. It appears that it may just be an Indonesian method of doing it.

I've also heard that in other jurisdictions (admittedly in the distant past), firing squad executions are actually carried out by the jurors who sentenced them to death. All twelve of them fire one shot from a gun preset to aim at the heart of the victim. However because this can cause trauma to the executioners, only gun has a live bullet in it, with the other eleven being blanks. None of them know which is the gun with the live bullet so all twelve of them can believe that they didn't fire the fatal shot. I suppose it would also nullify anyone who might brag about being the one who dispatched them, as no-one ever knows which had the live ammo in it.

Whatever way it's done, I find the death penalty barbaric.

The libertarian side of me will never grant the State (any State) the power to kill. People can rant and rave about countries like North Korea, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia for their barbarism all you want, but any country that executes people is on the same level as them, and its people will never be free.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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The libertarian side of me will never grant the State (any State) the power to kill. People can rant and rave about countries like North Korea, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia for their barbarism all you want, but any country that executes people is on the same level as them, and its people will never be free.

You are a level headed poster but thats kind of over the top. I won't argue with you beyond this post because like I said you are generally a level headed poster and I respect that.

A few years ago down in Florida a little girl was stolen out of her house, raped and then the creep buried her alive with zero consideration to the horrendous way he was imposing on her to die after raping her.. He got the death penalty ( but died of cancer before the execution)

If you want to compare the State of Florida because of the sentence to North Korea - hey its your post to make however though I respect you I don't find an argument for superior moral values particularly convincing or really get the sense it means you value all lives more than someone who believes taking somebody's life like that should result in you losing yours.

I can't think of a greater travesty against the memory of that little girl than for the tax payers to have paid for him to eat drink, watch TV, tend to all needs and keep him in air conditioning for the rest of his life. As it was the State would have been going beyond and above the call of duty not burying him alive as he did to that little girl.

I'll honor my word and say nothing more in this thread on that subject. I know you might call it vengeance but I'll call it justice regardless.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

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I'll honor my word and say nothing more in this thread on that subject. I know you might call it vengeance but I'll call it justice regardless.

Fair enough. Just to clarify my point a bit further though, the scum you mentioned probably wouldn't have had a long life in prison anyway. Once they get inside a unique justice system takes over and there is no due process involved. I can't speak for what takes place in jails outside of Australia, but here people like that "get taken care of" by their fellow inmates, or they're found "hanging in their cells" which probably amounts to the same thing.

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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Fair enough. Just to clarify my point a bit further though, the scum you mentioned probably wouldn't have had a long life in prison anyway. Once they get inside a unique justice system takes over and there is no due process involved. I can't speak for what takes place in jails outside of Australia, but here people like that "get taken care of" by their fellow inmates, or they're found "hanging in their cells" which probably amounts to the same thing.

The prisons actually do what they can to protect scum like that from other inmates. The ones that are most targeted, the child rapists and killers and the woman rapists and killers are often put in cells out of the general population for their protection.

I don't think that prosecutors should ever be allowed to go for the death penalty except for in cases where the evidence is irrefutable, such as DNA, fiber transfer, etc. Hard evidence. That's the problem with the death penalty ... crooked prosecutors that don't really give a rats ass about seeking justice. They just want to solve the case and make themselves look good.

But in cases where the evidence is rock solid, doesn't bother me one bit. Lifers have the ability to grow accustomed to prison life, exercise, have TV, books, educational programs, develop relationships, medical care, have jobs, recreation ... all things that the victims no longer have. I don't see why taxpayers should foot the bill to house them until they die.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

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The prisons actually do what they can to protect scum like that from other inmates. The ones that are most targeted, the child rapists and killers and the woman rapists and killers are often put in cells out of the general population for their protection.

That's no doubt due to the fact that a lot (all?) of your prisons are for-profit businesses. The more inmates, and the longer the stay, the more profits shareholders reap. That's also why there is no attempt to rehabilitate inmates. It ensures they become repeat visitors. A completely morally bankrupt (but financially profitable) system.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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That's no doubt due to the fact that a lot (all?) of your prisons are for-profit businesses. The more inmates, and the longer the stay, the more profits shareholders reap. That's also why there is no attempt to rehabilitate inmates. It ensures they become repeat visitors. A completely morally bankrupt (but financially profitable) system.

They are also spending every day for years around the scum of the world. People who blame others for their failures. How else would they come out?

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TimPhelan 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

That's no doubt due to the fact that a lot (all?) of your prisons are for-profit businesses.

It's a big industry for sure, but most federal prisons are not privately owned for profit businesses. Yet.

"The US Department of Justice statistics show that, as of 2013, there were 133,000 state and federal prisoners housed in privately owned prisons in the US, constituting 8.4% of the overall U.S. prison population.[12] Broken down to prison type, 19.1% of the federal prison population in the United States is housed in private prisons"

Private prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Joe Mobley 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

That's also why there is no attempt to rehabilitate inmates.

Not interested!

I am not interested in spending my money or your money on morality training.

Here's the game.

Here's the rules.

Play by them...

Or not.

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9 years ago

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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Whatever way it's done, I find the death penalty barbaric. The libertarian side of me will never grant the State (any State) the power to kill. People can rant and rave about countries like North Korea, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia for their barbarism all you want, but any country that executes people is on the same level as them, and its people will never be free.

I don't like the death penalty, for any crime. It isn't for political reasons, I just think we should be better than the people we punish. Or more accurately, I think I should be better than any murderer.

And....there are always the cases where someone was put to death, and then found innocent.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

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And....there are always the cases where someone was put to death, and then found innocent.

That is the number one reason I'm against it. I'm not sure why I didn't mention it in my reasons for disagreeing with it, but thank you for adding it.

I also think it's an easy way out for the perpertrator. They never have to show remorse or feel any guilt over what they did. They can go to their deaths feeling pretty chuffed about it all.

I'm very much against it for would be jihadists, those that actively seek martyrdom. Keep them alive to a ripe old age and ensure that they'll never get their 72 virgins. That actually is a punishment for them, rather than "rewarding" them by being killed by their enemies.

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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That is the number one reason I'm against it. I'm not sure why I didn't mention it in my reasons for disagreeing with it, but thank you for adding it.

I also think it's an easy way out for the perpertrator. They never have to show remorse or feel any guilt over what they did. They can go to their deaths feeling pretty chuffed about it all.

I'm very much against it for would be jihadists, those that actively seek martyrdom. Keep them alive to a ripe old age and ensure that they'll never get their 72 virgins. That actually is a punishment for them, rather than "rewarding" them by being killed by their enemies.

And maximum security prisons are no picnic. Living the rest of your life in a 6 by 8 foot room doesn't sound so fun. And jihadists become heroes when they die for their cause. But rotting ...slowly...for the rest of your life?

But I wouldn't pull the switch, even if a member of my family was the victim. People do what they are.

Again, just an opinion.

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Joe Mobley 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

get their 72 virgins.

Which would probably quickly turn into 2 very dissatisfied women and 70 lesbians.

Joe Mobley
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- whateverpedia 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Joe Mobley
  
  Which would probably quickly turn into 2 very dissatisfied women and 70 lesbians.
  
  Joe Mobley
  
  I reckon they'll discover it's the previous 72 dickheads who blew themselves up.
  
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9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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I also think it's an easy way out for the perpertrator. They never have to show remorse or feel any guilt over what they did. They can go to their deaths feeling pretty chuffed about it all.

I'm very much against it for would be jihadists, those that actively seek martyrdom. Keep them alive to a ripe old age and ensure that they'll never get their 72 virgins. That actually is a punishment for them, rather than "rewarding" them by being killed by their enemies.

25% of the prison population are psychopaths so they do not have any guilt or remorse either way.

EDIT : I just noticed where Mr. Whitacre just posted this figure above. I guess some minds think alike

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

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25% of the prison population are psychopaths so they do not have any guilt or remorse either way.

EDIT : I just noticed where Mr. Whitacre just posted this figure above. I guess some minds think alike

Yeah, in some countries, these irredeemable psychopaths are not in prisons.

These people (almost all are men) are institutionalized in a high security facility, and studied/treated......but no real hope is given for a recovery. These people are pure predators, and we need to be protected from them. The book The Psychopath Test: A Journey Through the Madness Industry author spends quite a lot of time, interviewing these institutionalized men. They think like very intelligent reptiles. Amazingly, they aren't violent, unless provoked. Again, like a reptile. They have no governor to measure response.

the author was interviewing this serial killer, and they were getting along fine. The "resident", leaned back and casually said, "I like you. I've decided not to kill you". It wasn't a joke. These people are monsters. But pure psychopaths are pretty rare.

I think the facility was in England.

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NRabosa 9 years ago

Firing Squad... Hmm, in big businesses it has a different connotation. Hence, Human Resources.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Doesn't that make the criminal some kind of hero?

Oh, and speaking of Hero, let them listen to some Nickelback instead.

Nickelback Hero Official Music Video - YouTube
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- BigFrank Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by NRabosa
  
  Oh, and speaking of Hero, let them listen to some Nickelback instead.
  
  Or, if you want them to really suffer, you can substitute Creed.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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  NRabosa 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  Or, if you want them to really suffer, you can substitute Creed.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Any Last Words?
  
  "Above all the others we'll fly
  This brings tears to my eyes
  My sacrifice"
  
  *Firing Squad proceeds shooting you*
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Dan Riffle 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by NRabosa
  
  Any Last Words?
  
  "Above all the others we'll fly
  This brings tears to my eyes
  My sacrifice"
  
  *Firing Squad proceeds shooting you and themselves*
  
  Fixed that for you to illustrate the true power of Creed.
  
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  Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.
  
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alistair 9 years ago

I don't care really. Fortunately I live in England and have no intention of travelling to a less civilised country where the question might be .
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- positivenegative 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by alistair
  
  I don't care really. Fortunately I live in England and have no intention of travelling to a less civilised country where the question might be .
  
  I don't think the USA is any less "civilised" because it has capital punishment.
  
  I also (like many others) believe that the UK should re-introduce capital punishment for the gravest of crimes. Sure, it won't stop all of them, but if it acts as a deterrent for even a small percentage of them then it's worthwhile.
  
  Apart from that, why should taxpayers money keep some of these animals locked up in relative comfort for their horrendous crimes.
  
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alistair 9 years ago

I don't believe in the death penalty. I once did but now I think it belongs in the history books. Don't know what changed my view. Don't know how I would feel though if ever somebody did anything terrible to somebody I care about and the police got to them first.

I 'm pretty certain however that I would have no qualms about doing the job myself if ever somebody did do something to somebody I cared about and I could get to them first.

It's a strange one.
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9 years ago

Capital punishment doesn't bother me when the evidence is irrefutable, either.

Whatever - rehabilitate? Nice cloud you're living on. You don't rehabilitate someone with a mentality that allows a person to torture and commit serial murders.

People that can commit brutal torture and murder do not have consciences. Thinking they are going to spend a life in remorse is naive in the extreme. When someone's brain is that addled, you can't fix it and you can't expect self indictment over what they have done. People have to start understanding that those that do these things are not wired the same way other people are. They are dangerous to anyone who gets near them as long as they are alive.

I also don't agree with the "kill them to save money" attitude. That's not why dangerous, sick in the head, humans are "punished" - or supposed to be. They are supposed to be put out of it for the safety of society. What if a prison break frees dozens of them? Do you think these people are somehow sane enough that they won't be out murdering more people? Don't kid yourself. If a person who commits sadistic enough murders to warrant the death penalty, they aren't going to turn into docile, safe members of society just because they escaped bars.

What turns my blood cold is people who think that someone sick in the head enough to do some of the things these people receive a death penalty for should have the same thing done to them. Really? Check out the crime Suzanne posted. Where the hell do you find a sane person that could do something like that under any circumstances? Forcing someone to torture someone is going to result in someone so insane they can't be dealt with either. It makes me just cringe to hear people who call themselves "good" people even say "do the same to them". If the person wasn't dangerously sick, they wouldn't have done what they did. You don't kill someone for being too whacked to function in society. You kill them to protect society.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Would You Prefer Lethal Injection, Firing Squad Or Nitrogen Gas?

Precisely which forum member are you referring to? Oh, him? Do I have to pick one or may I employ all three at the same time?

Cheers. - Frank
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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

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Capital punishment doesn't bother me when the evidence is irrefutable, either.

Whatever - rehabilitate? Nice cloud you're living on. You don't rehabilitate someone with a mentality that allows a person to torture and commit serial murders.

People that can commit brutal torture and murder do not have consciences. Thinking they are going to spend a life in remorse is naive in the extreme. When someone's brain is that addled, you can't fix it and you can't expect self indictment over what they have done. People have to start understanding that those that do these things are not wired the same way other people are. They are dangerous to anyone who gets near them as long as they are alive.

Sal; You are talking about psychopaths. But only about 25% of men in prison for murder, no matter how violent, are psychopaths. You're right, these men can't be rehabilitated. But that doesn't mean none of them can be.

People kill for many reasons; Greed, cheating spouse, revenge, and because they are trying to be accepted into a gang. Killing someone when you are really drunk, or in a fit of anger, isn't the same as cold blooded murder.

Most violent murders (and assaults) are from younger men who have more testosterone than brains. By the time they are middle aged, a lot of that is curbed. And they are smarter. If they are kept away from the irredeemable, they can be helped to be at least no longer a danger.

Anyway, Some men in prisons can't be helped, and we just need to keep them away from the rest of us. But not all violent offenders are a lost cause.

It's a thought.

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9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

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Whatever - rehabilitate? Nice cloud you're living on. You don't rehabilitate someone with a mentality that allows a person to torture and commit serial murders.

I didn't that to refer to people who've committed serious crimes being able to be rehabilitated. My fault - I should've been more specific on that point.

Surely someone who is in for possession, not paying fines, stealing a loaf of bread because they're homeless and starving, or any number of petty crimes can be very easily rehabilitated, and indeed go on to lead a normal, productive life when their time is done.

In the prison industrial complex however, there is no hope of redemption or rehabilitation, as that would eat into the profitability of the industry.

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Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?

So that blind people can hate them as well.

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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That's no doubt due to the fact that a lot (all?) of your prisons are for-profit businesses. The more inmates, and the longer the stay, the more profits shareholders reap. That's also why there is no attempt to rehabilitate inmates. It ensures they become repeat visitors. A completely morally bankrupt (but financially profitable) system.

I believe that it is the criminals that ensure that they become repeat visitors and it is the criminals who are morally bankrupt. Why should taxpayers pay to rehabilitate people who have decided that crime, often truly horrendous crime, gets treated to social services and mental health professionals, and programs designed to elevate their status.

If I'm going to dole money out, I much prefer to dole it out to poor children and families who have never decided that murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc. are a good way of life.

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

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In the prison industrial complex however, there is no hope of redemption or rehabilitation, as that would eat into the profitability of the industry.

That simply isn't true. There are tons of programs if a criminal is truly ambitious and wants to change their life, for them to become involved in and some end up with college degrees or other career enhancement as a result of those programs. Sometimes crime pays and you get more help than a poor struggling family would get. It's still all up to the criminal though. Change does not happen within a vacuum.

It also isn't true that are kept longer than they should be. Most are released well before their sentences are over and that does include some very dangerous and violent offenders, who often commit another rape or murder within months of their release.

More than half of all inmates in the United States serve maximum sentences of less than eight years, and many are released well before their sentences are completed. In New York State, forty percent of all inmates who are released will wind up back in prison within three years.

Young, non-violent offenders should be given a shot at rehabilitation, but many in prison are dangerous and not "curable" and society should be protected from them. There are educational programs and career programs in prison available. But many criminals are criminals because they prefer the easy way to money ... fraud and robbing other people. But for the little dope using criminals, that were never violent, there are programs if they really want to change their life. Many don't though. They can't wait to get out and start using again.

Boston University Prison Education Program

https://www.sce.cornell.edu/sce/cpep.php

BOP: Education

Goucher Prison Education Partnership : Goucher College

College Behind Bars: How Educating Prisoners Pays Off - Forbes

It's early release of violent criminals that is the problem ... not "for profit" prisons keeping these "poor misguided criminals" in longer than they deserve.

Pushing to reduce prison overcrowding, the Oklahoma Department of Corrections has quietly changed its policies to give early releases to greater numbers of violent and sex offenders, according to agency documents obtained by Oklahoma Watch.

The department is doing so by relaxing policies that determine which types of inmates can receive early-release credits, when those credits can be given, and how many credits offenders can receive, corrections department records show.

Previously, for example, inmates convicted of violent or sex crimes, such as murder, robbery, or rape, who lost early-release credits because of “misconducts” in prison were not eligible for restored credits. They are eligible now.

These types of inmates are among the more than 1,500 offenders, convicted of violent or non-violent crimes, that the department has released since March using restored credits.

At least dozens of those prisoners have since been arrested for other crimes, including murder, bank robbery and sexual assault, according to a check of court and county-jail records in a sampling of counties. One prisoner charged with bank robbery in June had been denied parole twice, in 2012 and 2013.

Some law enforcement officials say the stepped-up early releases are putting public safety at risk, but corrections officials maintain that’s not the case.

Officials have said publicly that accelerated releases of inmates through restored credits did not represent a policy change, only a more efficient use of existing policy. But Oklahoma Watch’s review of copies of department memos and a comparison of old and new policies show the agency granted exceptions to policies, then revised the policies, to enable the early releases. The DOC has revised its policies on restored credits four times this year.

Department memos and other records show the Corrections Department made other key changes to increase releases of inmates:

• The agency doubled the maximum number of certain early-release credits that can be earned by or restored to inmates.

• The DOC altered a policy to allow credits to be earned for inmates serving “split life sentences,” which typically require inmates to spend 20 to 30 years in prison and the rest of their life on probation. The change was retroactive, meaning credits were awarded going back to the first day of incarceration. One sex offender was given 12 years worth of credits and released on Dec. 10.

• The department reversed a policy that banned restoration of credits to inmates who are in a punishment period following a misconduct in prison. Now inmates can regain credits within those periods -- six months to two years, depending on the infraction -- and be released early. That includes inmates with violations for escape, assaulting a staff member, rioting or possessing a weapon.

• Officials decided that a state law banning inmates convicted of drug trafficking from getting credits does not apply to those convicted of aggravated drug trafficking, a worse crime. Aggravated means an additional factor was involved, such as a large amount of drugs – 1,000 pounds vs. 25 pounds of marijuana, for example -- or a prior criminal record.

The changes were part of an effort to reduce overcrowding in prisons. In August, two-thirds of prisons were officially over capacity, in part because about 3,000 state inmates had been moved from county jails into prisons. Prisons also were full because efforts to reduce incarceration, such as a Justice Reinvestment Initiative offering alternative treatment for nonviolent offenders, had stalled, advocates of the initiative said.

Speedy Exits

Department records reveal a sense of urgency to get inmates out of prison.

A March 10 memo sent by Ed Evans, associate corrections director, to all facility heads had an attachment saying registration paperwork for sex and violent offenders whose credits were restored must be “completed immediately and forwarded to the Sex Offender Registration Unit so that their release is delayed no longer than necessary.

“Due to the short notice, staff will need to assist the offenders in contacting family and/or friends to arrange their transportation home,” the attachment said.

Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said he’s concerned that accelerated releases are causing a danger to the public.

“I think what you’re going to see within a year, maybe less, is a spike in crime by the offenders released to the street,” said Prater. “They’ve shown they can’t behave behind the walls. They’re certainly not going to behave on the outside without supervision.”

Corrections Director Robert Patton maintained the releases are not a threat to public safety. The department is simply fulfilling the law for early-release credits approved by the legislature, he said.

“Am I going to tell you that everyone I release will never come back to prison again? Of course not,” Patton said. “But what I can tell you is that the only way the system can be effective is if there’s a way to earn (early-release credits) back.” It is a “carrot and stick” approach, he said.

Gov. Mary Fallin told Oklahoma Watch, “There has to be a fine balance between having the system and protecting the public … If there’s an incentive for an inmate to behave because they have the opportunity to earn good time credits, that certainly helps correctional officers and employees with those inmates.”

When Patton took over the director’s job on Feb. 18, the backup of state inmates in jails was already a serious concern.

County jail officials were criticizing the state’s low reimbursement rate for housing state inmates and slow response in picking them up.

Minutes from a November 2013 Board of Corrections meeting show staff and board members were looking at the problem. Terri Watkins, director of DOC communications, said Patton immediately began working on the issue and meeting with law enforcement officials.

Prater said that shortly before taking over as director, Patton visited with him and others at the District Attorneys Council meeting and talked about using restored-credits to step up releases.

“Patton told us they were going to be very careful about who they released and would use evidence-based assessments of who they released,” Prater said. “I don’t believe that’s occurred.”

Patton has said the department initially believed the jail backup was about 1,900 prisoners, but the number turned out to be closer to 3,000.

At a corrections board meeting on April 3, Laura Pitman, division manager for field support, said that restoring early-release credits to shrink the prison population was the first phase of emptying the jails, board minutes show. Beginning March 10, offenders who had lost credits because of violations “were reviewed for possible restoration of those lost credits if the return resulted in an immediate discharge,” she said.

Between March 10 and March 28, the prison system released 436 prisoners using restored credits, the April 3 minutes show.

In October, Patton told a legislative panel that removing inmates from the jails had saved at least $11 million. However, “it’s much more than about the dollar figure – it’s preparing inmates for release into society,” Patton told legislators, referring to lack of rehabilitative programs in jails. “It is my responsibility, to the best of my ability and within my budget, to prepare offenders for release. That’s what correctional systems are about.”

Relaxing Restrictions

Most inmates can earn early-release credits. There are two basic types: credits for just being incarcerated, and “achievement credits” for good behavior or participating in prison programs, such as education and substance-abuse treatment. Each credit represents one day of early release. Some prisoners accumulate hundreds or thousands of credits.
Interactive: Prison System Growth

Prison Population StatsThe credits are used as an incentive for inmates to behave well and to seek rehabilitation as well a way for prison officers to control the inmate population.

When state inmates break rules or laws in prison or in a county jail, they can lose credits. Credits can be restored, with restrictions.

Corrections Department memos and policy records obtained by Oklahoma Watch document the loosening of restrictions for earning and restoring credits.

In July, for example, the department made a policy change that eliminated the maximum number of early-release days – 365 – that could be restored to an inmate. The maximum became unlimited. As a result, some prisoners released earlier this year had thousands of credits restored to them. In November, the department reinstated a cap, at 730 days.

The only inmates ineligible to have credits restored are those with active misconducts in prison – meaning the violation occurred within the previous six months to two years - that would also likely lead to criminal charges: killing another person, participating in an act that killed another person, or rape/forced sex.

The department also doubled the number of achievement credits that can be earned in some programs, such as halfway-house work release. It doubled the number of credits awarded for continued good behavior, too, from 30 to 60 for four months without a misconduct.

Another change involved inmates serving time for “85 percent” crimes – violent, drug or sex crimes requiring that at least 85 percent of sentences be served. Those offenders generally cannot receive early-release credits until after they have reached the 85 percent mark.

Under old policies, such inmates who violated rules in prison and lost their credits could not have any credits restored. The new policy allows for restoring credits if the inmate meets certain requirements related to time left on the sentence and the nature of their crime and misconduct, a copy of the new policy shows.

Prisoners with split-life sentences used to be lumped in with those serving life imprisonment sentences and thus were not eligible to earn credits. However, a tally of the credits was still kept in case their sentence was modified. The new corrections policy retroactively applies all of the credits.

An example is a 58-year-old sex offender, Ricky D. Smothers, who had 4,444 credits, or more than 12 years, awarded to him this month because of the policy changes, according to department records.

In September 1997, a Lincoln County judge sentenced Smothers to life in prison with all but 30 years suspended after the offender pleaded guilty to raping and molesting his 4-year-old, mentally disabled stepdaughter near Chandler. The crime was covered by the news media.

Smothers had very few misconduct violations in prison and, after serving 17 years, was released on Dec. 10 under probation, records show.

Another early release, first reported by The Oklahoman, involved Antonio Ray Mason, who in 1994 was sentenced to 35 years in prison for second-degree murder. Mason shot another man with a pistol during a robbery. During his time in prison, Mason committed 25 misconducts, 10 of which were major, “Class-X” misconducts ranging from possession of a cell phone to committing battery on a staff member without injury, department records show.

In August, Mason was given eight and a half years of restored early-release credits and released.
Early-Release Offenders Accused of New Crimes

Other prisoners released through restored credits have since been accused of new crimes, according to a sampling of court and jail-roster records checked by Oklahoma Watch in Comanche, Garfield, Grady, Okmulgee, Osage, Roger and Tulsa counties. Thirty-eight accused re-offenders were found.

Aaron J. Rock, 24, was released in April after serving three years of a seven-year sentence for drug, weapons and robbery charges. Rock’s application for parole had been denied by Gov. Fallin in 2012 and by the Pardon and Parole Board in 2013. In October, he pleaded guilty in federal court to a June 14 bank robbery in Sand Springs.

John M. Hensley, 27, was released from prison in April after serving four years of a six-year sentence for assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. In October, he was arrested in Ardmore and charged with attempted rape and various aggravated assault counts.

In April, 30-year-old Desmond La’don Campbell, serving time for attempted kidnapping, exited prison after receiving 362 restored credits, as first reported by the Tulsa World. Corrections records show he had lost the credits for possessing a cellphone or its paraphernalia or posting to a computer site, considered a major violation because of some prisoners’ use of cellphones to coordinate gang activity. His credits were restored under an exception to the restored-credits policy. He was later suspected in at least seven rapes across Tulsa in June. He died on July 8 after a single-car crash on June 29.

There is insufficient data to determine whether the recidivism rate is higher for inmates released so far this year through restored credits than for all inmates released from the prison system. The department says 21 percent of offenders released in fiscal year 2010 returned to the system by the end of fiscal 2013.

It’s also not clear how many inmates have been given an early release under each policy change. The corrections department provided to Oklahoma Watch a list of 1,497 inmates released from prison because of restored credits from March through September but provided no details about each inmate’s credits or misconducts. About 12 percent of the offenders had names common for females; about 10 percent of Oklahoma’s inmate population are women.

Reports of Light Punishment

Sean Wallace, director of a correctional workers group, and some corrections department employees say besides the early releases, corrections officers are being told in many cases not to report offenders or take away early-release credits for misconducts.

“There’s all this pressure on them not to write people up,” said Wallace, who heads Oklahoma Corrections Professionals. “…Even if they do pull the trigger and write someone up, it’s often waived by their superiors.”

Wallace said the policy changes increase the danger level in prisons already facing staffing shortages and make it hard for officers to maintain control.

“I think everybody already feels they’re in a precarious position,” Wallace said.

Watkins, corrections department spokeswoman, said she knows of no directives to staff members to not discipline, or not deny restoring credits to, inmates who commit violations in prisons. She also said early releases are not causing correctional staff to lose control of the prison population.

“I believe the director talked to staff, talked to wardens, talked to facilities and asked to be informed if it was creating any problems,” Watkins said. “I understand (Oklahoma Corrections Professionals) has said there’s been concerns, but I am not aware of any that have been directed to us.”

Sequoyah County Sheriff Ron Lockhart said his office contacted the Corrections Department in late November after a state prisoner being held in the jail to attend a court hearing attacked another jail inmate. Lockhart said his office requested that the prisoner be given a misconduct and have early-release credits taken away as punishment.

“They said, ‘We can’t take his (early-release credits) away. We might be able to re-classify him, but thanks for calling,’” Lockhart said.

The Sequoyah County jail population is higher now than it was before the department pulled state prisoners from the jail, Lockhart said. Offenders released from prison are showing back up in the jails charged with new crimes.

“It’s basically those who are getting let out early and re-offending,” Lockhart said. “Our jail has been near capacity since the DOC started this.”

Prater, the district attorney, said probation and parole officers also are being discouraged from reporting some offenders who violate release conditions to district attorneys.

He said he believes the early-release efforts are circumventing the authority of the Pardon and Parole Board and the parole process. The parole board’s role is to screen inmates for release under parole supervision; inmates released through restored credits won’t have the need to apply for parole.

Some public officials expressed concern about the releases.

Rep. Bobby Cleveland, R-Slaughterville, said some legislators want to repeal the law allowing prisoners to have early-release credits restored.

“I think the law’s good. You’ve just got to really be careful,” Cleveland said. “I wouldn’t be in favor of it (repeal), but some people are.”

“They were letting out some people they shouldn’t have let out,” Cleveland said.

Asked about the possibility of new legislation, Gov. Fallin said, “If the legislature wants to have a discussion and look at how our current earned credit system works, I think that’s certainly a reasonable conversation we can have … The end goal is to keep the public safe.”

April, 2014 study from the Bureau of Justice Statistics Following Prison Releases for Three and Five Years:

An estimated two-thirds (68 percent) of 405,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005 were arrested for a new crime within three years of release from prison, and three-quarters (77 percent) were arrested within five years, per the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).

More than a third (37 percent) of prisoners who were arrested within five years of release were arrested within the first six months after release, with more than half (57 percent) arrested by the end of the first year.

These findings are based on a BJS data collection, Recidivism of State Prisoners Released in 2005, which tracked a sample of former prison inmates from 30 states for five years following release in 2005.

During the five years after release, prisoners in the study were arrested about 1.2 million times across the country. A sixth (16 percent) of released prisoners were responsible for nearly half (48 percent) of the arrests. About two in five (42 percent) released prisoners were either not arrested or were arrested no more than once in the five years after release.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...of_new_crimes/

http://www.wthr.com/story/19919959/v...eased-too-soon

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HeySal 9 years ago

Claude - not everyone who commits murder is put on death row for it either. The death penalty is for humans that are a continual threat because of the lack of empathy and the likelihood of repeated offenses if ever released.

There are some acts which completely out rule any existence of any empathy capabilities. That doesn't mean they can't fake empathy when their life depends on it. But looking at some crimes, the fact that the person can even live with them memory at all is pretty good indication that they will never be safe.
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When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path
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- discrat 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by HeySal
  
  There are some acts which completely out rule any existence of any empathy capabilities
  
  Sal,
  Is this what your talking about
  
  Inside the Mind of a Murdering Psychopath -...
  
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  Signature
  
  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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Banned 9 years ago

I agree there should be no death penalty.

A criminal should be an unperson and be kept alive for the purpose of organ harvesting.
And discarded once he has outlived his usefulness.

A little bit like in the People's Republic of China.

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9 years ago

I personally think murder, torture and rape are wrong and wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over the execution of criminals like below.

of course they are wrong -Suzanne - and while I agree Canada's judicial system is far from perfect - I still think 2 wrongs don't make a right -

on the other hand, if someone tried to kill me or a loved one, I am not sure whether I would kill the person, but I would certainly try to defend myself and/or loved one - and shoot for the kneecaps or something -

it's a tough call because I've never been in a situation like that. It's really easy to be judge and jury when you're not the victim - right?

I just don't like the mob-mentality that takes hold when capital punishment is doled out - there's something terribly wrong with wanting to watch someone get killed in my opinion - I just couldn't

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Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

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I just don't like the mob-mentality that takes hold when capital punishment is doled out - there's something terribly wrong with wanting to watch someone get killed in my opinion - I just couldn't

There is no mob mentality. Either you believe in the death penalty or you don't and that's for everyone to decide for themselves, but there aren't any mobs over here waiting to watch people get killed. There are very few spectators at an execution and those are Drs., victims, relatives of the accused, etc. Only time you ever see a mob at an execution is the anti-death penalty people picketing outside.

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Midnight Oil 9 years ago

This is what mob mentality looks like in India. We're a long way from that.

Ripping prison gates open and dragging 'rapist' naked through the streets: Chilling new video shows moment Indian mob kidnaps inmate before beating him to death - as police investigate second lynching | Daily Mail Online
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