Something has to change, and soon

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Televised beating again puts spotlight on law enforcement pursuit tactics - LA Times

After leading authorities on a nearly three-hour pursuit by car and horseback, Francis Pusok was lying face down in the dirt with his hands clasped behind his back as San Bernardino County Sheriff's deputies moved in.Then the "feeding frenzy" began, as one police tactics expert put it.
"It is difficult to manage your adrenaline," San Bernardino Sheriff-Coroner John McMahon said Friday at a news conference in which he announced that the 10 deputies involved had been put on administrative leave.
"It is very difficult at times to control your emotions, control your adrenaline, but that's not an excuse for what occurred yesterday."
Ya think?

Ed Obayashi, an Inyo County sheriff's deputy and police use-of-force expert, described the Apple Valley incident as "a case of contagious force."
"One deputy does it so another deputy does the same.... You have multiple continuous blows here," he said. "During any pursuit, everyone experiences an adrenaline rush. But peace officers are trained to control themselves. You've got to keep your mind on the job and use your training and experience."
Obviously, they weren't trained well enough.

Or were they, and they chose to ignore the training? The "us vs. them" mentality of the police needs to go away, and the bullies, thugs, and mentally unstable police need to be weeded out, pronto.

The first officer on the scene may or may not have had reason to use force to subdue the arrestee. Maybe even the second one. I've seen how people on various hallucinogenic drugs can react.

But every officer after the first one or two that arrived needs to be fired and prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon and put in prison.
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    They need to put the cops that kicked him in the head in general population when/If they get locked up. Same goes for the cop that shot the 50 year old in the back in SC.







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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Just get rid of all cell phone cameras/recorders and portable video devices and it will all go away. It's probably been going on for a long time, just never had so many people out there with the ability to capture footage so easily.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Just get rid of all cell phone cameras/recorders and portable video devices and it will all go away. It's probably been going on for a long time, just never had so many people out there with the ability to capture footage so easily.
        This was a TV news crew that caught this, in a HELICOPTER flying right over the top of them. Really have to wonder at their mentality that they didn't notice or didn't even care.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
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          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          This was a TV news crew that caught this, in a HELICOPTER flying right over the top of them. Really have to wonder at their mentality that they didn't notice or didn't even care.
          I found that odd.

          There was at least two helicopters, one was flying very low, I guess police helicopter. Maybe the fools doing the beating thought they were hearing only the police helicopter. I imagine the TV helicopter was much further away with a zoom lens on the camera trying stay out of the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    American police are crazy... Every day on the news in the UK there is some brutality of a US policemen being shown!
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  • Profile picture of the author mrdeflation
    amazing to think what happened that they were able to sweep under the rug BEFORE their were cellphone cameras...... SCARY
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Steve - It is changing - because of the cameras.

      This stuff is not new - it always happened. People didn't talk about it much because if they complained.....chances were something WORSE would happen.

      What we're beginning to see is positive - a cop shooting a person in the back is fired and charged with murder. THAT is a positive change.

      The 10 deputies who beat the suspect in CA were immediately suspended by the Sheriff and an investigation launched.

      When you shine a light in a room, the cockroaches disappear. The body cams, car cams and people with cell phones are shining a light on the problems. It's a positive change to me.

      That beating was mob behavior - no doubt. It's the same thing we see when protestors become looters. Police can't afford to do that - they can't be allowed to do that.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Steve - It is changing - because of the cameras.

        This stuff is not new - it always happened. People didn't talk about it much because if they complained.....chances were something WORSE would happen.
        I think you're right, it's been happening ever since there have been police. I can't help but think it's gotten worse over the last 20-30 years or so, though. I don't know exactly when it started, but when I was a kid (and I had plenty of contact with LEOs ) they didn't walk around like military in fatigues and combat boots. Surely that has to have an effect on disposition. If you dress like a combat soldier, you tend to act like one.
        What we're beginning to see is positive - a cop shooting a person in the back is fired and charged with murder. THAT is a positive change.

        The 10 deputies who beat the suspect in CA were immediately suspended by the Sheriff and an investigation launched.

        When you shine a light in a room, the cockroaches disappear. The body cams, car cams and people with cell phones are shining a light on the problems. It's a positive change to me.
        To me, too, totally agree.
        That beating was mob behavior - no doubt. It's the same thing we see when protestors become looters. Police can't afford to do that - they can't be allowed to do that.
        I think the whole mental makeup of police has changed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that a few years ago at least ONE of the police mob would have tried to do the right thing and call the others off, even force them off.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Steve - It is changing - because of the cameras.

        This stuff is not new - it always happened. People didn't talk about it much because if they complained.....chances were something WORSE would happen.

        What we're beginning to see is positive - a cop shooting a person in the back is fired and charged with murder. THAT is a positive change.

        The 10 deputies who beat the suspect in CA were immediately suspended by the Sheriff and an investigation launched.

        When you shine a light in a room, the cockroaches disappear. The body cams, car cams and people with cell phones are shining a light on the problems. It's a positive change to me.

        That beating was mob behavior - no doubt. It's the same thing we see when protestors become looters. Police can't afford to do that - they can't be allowed to do that.
        yes I agree. With the proliferation of technology and social media, there has been Pros and Cons.

        What you talk about Kay is definitely the Pros of this proliferation.

        We are at the beginning stages of exterminating the bad cops.

        About time, don't you think
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    We need to know anything and everything that happened before rendering judgement.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      We need to know anything and everything that happened before rendering judgement.
      Y...Y...Y...[YAWN]
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      We need to know anything and everything that happened before rendering judgement.
      What's left besides a beating on live TV?
      • Identity theft.
      • Stolen horse.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      We need to know anything and everything that happened before rendering judgement.
      No we don't ....not with that kind of picture of the victim
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        "After abandoning the vehicle, he stole the horse from a group of equestrians near Deep Creek Hot Springs. The horse was injured as Pusok urged it over the rugged terrain, sheriff's officials said.

        Pusok was known to the Sheriff's Department. He pleaded no contest to felony attempted robbery in a 2006 incident as well as to several misdemeanor charges, including disturbing the peace and animal cruelty. In December, he was charged in San Bernardino County with a misdemeanor count of resisting arrest, pleading no contest.

        On a prior domestic call, Pusok threatened to kill a deputy sheriff and shot a puppy in front of his family members, McMahon said."

        So this guy shot a puppy in front of his family, stole an injured horse and rode it over rugged terrain, threatened to kill a sheriff and pleaded no contest in a felony robbery. Sounds like a thug to me. I bet he was even wearing a hoodie!!!
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          "After abandoning the vehicle, he stole the horse from a group of equestrians near Deep Creek Hot Springs. The horse was injured as Pusok urged it over the rugged terrain, sheriff's officials said.

          Pusok was known to the Sheriff's Department. He pleaded no contest to felony attempted robbery in a 2006 incident as well as to several misdemeanor charges, including disturbing the peace and animal cruelty. In December, he was charged in San Bernardino County with a misdemeanor count of resisting arrest, pleading no contest.

          On a prior domestic call, Pusok threatened to kill a deputy sheriff and shot a puppy in front of his family members, McMahon said."

          So this guy shot a puppy in front of his family, stole an injured horse and rode it over rugged terrain, threatened to kill a sheriff and pleaded no contest in a felony robbery. Sounds like a thug to me. I bet he was even wearing a hoodie!!!
          Yep he was garbage wrapped in skin. I actually don't feel bad when anyone kills an animal abuser. More oxygen for those who are kind. However - police are not judges and juries and cannot be allowed to murder when it's not necessary to bring someone to justice. If it's okay for cops to practice vigilante justice, it's okay for us, too. We could start with factory farmers and other animal abusers. If cops don't need courts, neither do we.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          So this guy shot a puppy in front of his family, stole an injured horse and rode it over rugged terrain, threatened to kill a sheriff and pleaded no contest in a felony robbery. Sounds like a thug to me. I bet he was even wearing a hoodie!!!
          lol at the last sentence

          But heres the problem Tim. Outside of priors that come up on their system a lot of the details about the person are really not available to the pursuing cops. These incidents are not because the police think hey this guy deserve it for his priors but because of the emotions of the inconvenience to the officers in the chase and to be fair some moral outrage at the danger the nitwits cause to the public.

          In the South Carolina case for example its dubious the officer thought "hey you owe child support so I am shooting you in the back". Its more about the outrage of having to tussle with the guy (I'll surprise some people by saying I suspect race had a much smaller part to play than some think in that episode - maybe almost none)


          We probably need to change the psychological profile of those we hire to be cops. I've met far too many macho type police officers (even friends I know) that get off on the power. In situations police find themselves in at times the cowboy mentality is a bad mix.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            lol at the last sentence

            But heres the problem Tim. Outside of priors that come up on their system a lot of the details about the person are really not available to the pursuing cops. These incidents are not because the police think hey this guy deserve it for his priors but because of the emotions of the inconvenience to the officers in the chase and to be fair some moral outrage at the danger the nitwits cause to the public.

            In the South Carolina case for example its dubious the officer thought "hey you owe child support so I am shooting you in the back". Its more about the outrage of having to tussle with the guy (I'll surprise some people by saying I suspect race had a much smaller part to play than some think in that episode - maybe almost none)


            We probably need to change the psychological profile of those we hire to be cops. I've met far too many macho type police officers (even friends I know) that get off on the power. In situations police find themselves in at times the cowboy mentality is a bad mix.
            I agree with that, Mike. There's a bit of sarcasm in my response as was in TLs earlier response "We need to know anything and everything that happened before rendering judgement." Of course this guy didn't deserve to be beaten like he was, even if he is the enormous jerk he appears to be.

            By the way, how about the 73 year old "volunteer" cop who accidentally shot a guy with a gun saying he thought he was using a taser? Turns out he was a wealthy "pay to play" cop. :/
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              I
              By the way, how about the 73 year old "volunteer" cop who accidentally shot a guy with a gun saying he thought he was using a taser? Turns out he was a wealthy "pay to play" cop. :/
              Actually I feel for the guy. If he's not a great actor then it was an accident that he owned up to almost immediately. I could do without hearing he shot a black guy. In this case we have the victim on tape selling an illegal gun and an accidental shooting. I see nothing that has anything to do with race. If the deputy bought his way into being a cop the he should be released and the sheriff should be charged with the manslaughter for putting him on the street.

              The deputy's claim he feared the victim had a gun is also unquestionable. the victim again is on video with one before he takes off. Unlike the SC case he should have realized he upped the possibility of being shot. He knows the cops know he was in possession of a gun and takes of running.

              I probably need to hear more about the case but when you are selling illegal guns you have a pretty good idea that it might be used to hurt someone. If you are intentionally shot in cold blood then I would be concerned but if you get shot by accident when selling illegal guns.sorry it has a ring of

              you live by the sword you die by it.

              as of now I am hoping the deputy serves no real time
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Actually I feel for the guy. If he's not a great actor then it was an accident that he owned up to almost immediately. I could do without hearing he shot a black guy. In this case we have the victim on tape selling an illegal gun and an accidental shooting. I see nothing that has anything to do with race. If the deputy bought his way into being a cop the he should be released and the sheriff should be charged with the manslaughter for putting him on the street.

                The deputy's claim he feared the victim had a gun is also unquestionable. the victim again is on video with one before he takes off. Unlike the SC case he should have realized he upped the possibility of being shot. He knows the cops know he was in possession of a gun and takes of running.

                I probably need to hear more about the case but when you are selling illegal guns you have a pretty good idea that it might be used to hurt someone. If you are intentionally shot in cold blood then I would be concerned but if you get shot by accident when selling illegal guns.sorry it has a ring of

                you live by the sword you die by it.

                as of now I am hoping the deputy serves no real time
                I just brought up the story about the 73 year old volunteer cop because of the "pay to play" aspect of it, which just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, you are giving a guy a tazer and gun mostly because he paid to become a cop? I didn't mention anything about race.

                I do feel bad for the old guy but feel worse for the victim. When he was lying bleeding to death he said "I can't breath" and another cop said "Shut the **** up". Probably the last words he heard. Sure, he was committing a crime, but he didn't deserve to die.
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


                  I do feel bad for the old guy but feel worse for the victim. When he was lying bleeding to death he said "I can't breath" and another cop said "Shut the **** up". Probably the last words he heard. Sure, he was committing a crime, but he didn't deserve to die.
                  Same here. I saw him this morning reporting himself to the Station.

                  He seems like a good guy. Probably somene's grandfather who was just an average Joe.
                  Never done anything to anyone.

                  But I also cannot help but think about the victim and particularly his family. Seeing that video of him terrified as he got shot and knowing he was probably going to die right there...that image is something that will haunt each of his family members for the rest of their lives
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    I find I've run out of sympathy for many of the criminals. Too bad he was shot and killed - it really is.

                    BUT he was selling a gun and ammo (against the law) - he ran from police rather than stopping when they told him to) - he resisted arrest when they caught up to him.

                    I feel really sorry for the man who shot him - it was an accident but the criminal brought it on himself by resisting arrest. Sometimes there ARE consequences and they can be life ending.

                    When you set out to break the law - bad things can happen to you. When you ignore commands of police to stop or when you try to fight and resist arrest - you CHOOSE to risk your life. Pretty stupid - but people do it all the time.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  I didn't mention anything about race.
                  Hey sorry if I didn't clarify. You absolutely didn't. I was referring to news reports and some videos I saw. I agree with you on the comments that were made to him but I didn't think they were made by the guy that shot him. If it does turn out he paid his way to be cop (they are denying it) then to me the Sherrif is the one guilty of manslaughter as they put him out there with a gun.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    There's good reason that military and cops are supposed to be separate entities. Unfortunately - our cops are being trained military and given military gear. Some are trained by Blackwater and have not one rat's ass of concern about civil rights.

    Cops wrongfully killed a couple thousand people last year. Some get time off with pay while an "investigation" clears them of wrongdoing. The cops always get off no matter how brutal and needless the murder was. What's the message? Do what you want, you own these people. That does have to stop. Now, not later. Not just guns either. Tasers are supposed to be used as a substitute to lethal force, but more and more people are being killed by cops with tasers who think it's their right to punish people with them even after they are handcuffed and subdued.

    This is a side effect of fascism. I'm so sick of everyone with a little bit of authority thinking they own everyone I could scream. Cops, employers, legislators - they all they think we are their own private livestock and it's high time they all got a wake up call.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Cops wrongfully killed a couple thousand people last year
      No, that's a lie -and you've posted it before and the FACTS have been posted before.

      People killed by police in 2014 has been listed as 400 'justified' by several sources and at 593 total by other sources.

      How does it help when you throw out false facts to "prove" your argument??? You know that number is wrong, Sal, so why keep tossing it into posts as if you don't know? You are too smart to keep doing that.
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      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
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      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        No, that's a lie -and you've posted it before and the FACTS have been posted before.

        People killed by police in 2014 has been listed as 400 'justified' by several sources and at 593 total by other sources.

        How does it help when you throw out false facts to "prove" your argument??? You know that number is wrong, Sal, so why keep tossing it into posts as if you don't know? You are too smart to keep doing that.
        Actually, I don't know that it's wrong. I'm going to have to check back (way back because I no longer have that data, at least for now.

        I do know it was a lot and that it's twice as many white than black. I know it's only gun figures I'm talking about. I don't have updated stats on taser death or beating, etc.

        Damn hard drive - now I have to look this crap up from get again.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Pusok was on the Chris Hayes show on MSNBC last night.

    He had a black eye.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The first time I saw the video - before I saw the ending of it....I was appalled at how he was riding that horse over that terrain.

      Should the police have beaten him? Of course not, that's against what they are trained to do.

      Do I care if someone who abused animals was beaten? Not in the least.

      Now THAT is a conundrum.
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      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Cameras should ALSO be allowed in courtrooms. It's amazing what small town judges can sweep under the rug, and keep off the records, as if it never happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    I don't want to get off on a political rant here, but I think a ton of people need to calm down and get some perspective.


    While I do think there is instances of unjustified homicide, it's not nearly as widespread as the media seems to be distorting it into.


    This is a country of 300 million people....and from what I can gather from outside sources (there is a blog that aggregates all of these incidences), about 1,000 people are killed each year by police, or 3 per day on average.


    That not only includes stuff like this, but also the people killed committing crimes like resisting lawful arrest, robberies, and other stuff.


    Also keep in mind this is out of the hundreds of thousands of times cops interact with their communities daily.


    Sorry, but all things considered, there is no thug militarized police that is systematically going on a rampage terrorizing people. That is a distortion brought to you by media bias.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post


      This is a country of 300 million people....and from what I can gather from outside sources (there is a blog that aggregates all of these incidences), about 1,000 people are killed each year by police, or 3 per day on average..
      Sheesh what kind of ridiculous nonsense logic is that? at what point should we be concerned? what magical percentage of the population means we have a serious problem that the media should report on and highlight?

      Okay then precious few children are killed by pedofiles so lets just pretend thats not a serious issue. Abuses of authority and power are serious issues not when they reach a set percentage of the population but by the very nature that they are abusive of power by those invested with higher trust and authority.

      Why is it that no one brings up a percentage argument when its a Priest violating the under aged? Very few priests do but it s BIG issue because of a betrayal of trust not because it meets a predetermined quota for people to say "okay at this number there's a problem"

      I'll blame the media for lots of things but part of the role of a free press in a democracy is to expose abuses of power by the minority that hold such power. Its a feasible and needed check and balance.
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Sheesh what kind of ridiculous nonsense logic is that? at what point should we be concerned? what magical percentage of the population means we have a serious problem that the media should report on and highlight?

        Okay then precious few children are killed by pedofiles so lets just pretend thats not a serious issue. Abuses of authority and power are serious issues not when they reach a set percentage of the population but by the very nature that they are abusive of power by those invested with higher trust and authority.

        Why is it that no one brings up a percentage argument when its a Priest violating the under aged? Very few priests do but it s BIG issue because of a betrayal of trust not because it meets a predetermined quota for people to say "okay at this number there's a problem"

        I'll blame the media for lots of things but part of the role of a free press is to expose abuses of power by the minority that hold such power. Its a feasible and needed check and balance.


        Vladimir Lenin killed 10 million people.


        Josef Stalin killed 20 million people.


        Adolph Hitler killed 24 million people.


        Mao Tse Tung killed 100 million people.


        Again, you need some perspective.


        Do I believe there are problems in a nation this big? I'd be an idiot to not believe such problems do not exist.


        But I also believe it's been blown way out of proportion.


        Some people need to switch to decaf.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Vladimir Lenin killed 10 million people.


          Josef Stalin killed 20 million people.


          Adolph Hitler killed 24 million people.


          Mao Tse Tung killed 100 million people.


          Again, you need some perspective.
          and again You need help with logic Floyd. You just went from a ridiculous argument to to one that is just totally asinine. No one has to put any murders in the perspective of Mao, Adolph or Stalin. If thats the case the media should lay off reporting on any serial killers until they reach what? say 1000 people killed because before that ....ho hum..... it s no big deal when you put it besides the Holocaust

          lol.....That has to be one of the silliest arguments I have ever read on this forum. You might want to lay off the caffeine while you are watching news report. I've heard no one claiming the issue was as huge as World War 2.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Vladimir Lenin killed 10 million people.


          Josef Stalin killed 20 million people.


          Adolph Hitler killed 24 million people.


          Mao Tse Tung killed 100 million people.


          Again, you need some perspective.


          Do I believe there are problems in a nation this big? I'd be an idiot to not believe such problems do not exist.


          But I also believe it's been blown way out of proportion.


          Some people need to switch to decaf.
          These guys didn't just walk into those countries and start murdering people. They did one hella bit of indoctrinating them, and they set up their police forces as military factions. What we do when we keep police from abusing people is keep them free from tyranny such as the ones you just listed. If you think we should ignore police abuse at all - you are in the indoctrination stage. We're not any more special than Mussolini's, Stalin's, or Hitler's people. It can happen here. When you allow cops to act like slave owners you're taking one huge step in that direction. There's a reason for things like the bill of rights and court systems. You just listed several. Allowing cops to murder at will without the person going through the justice system is fascism and you don't stop that by saying not enough are being killed. If it comes to the amount of people being killed that would turn your head, it would be too late for us. We'd be pwned.
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          Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    This is interesting...

    California Assembly panel approves legislation preventing police from viewing body camera footage



    Officer Bill 'Robocop' Melendez fired for brutal roadside beating of Michigan grandfather:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/0...an-grandfather
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Has anything changed yet?
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    All the talk about the "Police problem" is absolutely moronic and unwarranted.

    No black man or white man has ever been killed by a cop for being cooperative and respectful.

    So here's the deal. If you are the kind of person who's behavior and actions cause a police officer to come around...then you have voluntarily availed yourself to additional possibilities and as such, have no ground to stand on when one of those possibilities results in your arrest, injury or even death.

    Best advice... simply make a choice not to commit crime or associate with those who do.

    The reality is, if you are having a conversation with a police officer and you get yourself shot....well...your just a special kind of stupid.

    I repeat. No black man or white man has ever been shot by the police for being cooperative and respectful. Its never happened. Ever.

    Personally I rejoice every time a criminal is shot. The world is instantly a better place because of it.

    Thugs lives don't matter! ....put that on your T-shirt and wear it proudly.

    That is all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      All the talk about the "Police problem" is absolutely moronic and unwarranted.
      So, the police officers who beat the man on the horse were justified in their actions, from your black and white perspective? (I'm not condoning the man's actions; but police officers sometimes do cross the line.)

      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      If you are the kind of person who's behavior and actions cause a police officer to come around...then you have voluntarily availed yourself to additional possibilities and as such, have no ground to stand on when one of those possibilities results in your arrest, injury or even death.
      Because we all know that no one is ever targeted or confronted by the police for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or wearing the wrong clothes (e.g. a hoodie), or having a certain look or skin color...

      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      Personally I rejoice every time a criminal is shot. The world is instantly a better place because of it.

      Thugs lives don't matter!
      Self-righteous much?

      Sometimes those "criminals" and "thugs" are individuals whose lives took a bad turn (e.g. they committed a crime out of desperation), or someone who was set up, or someone who'd gotten involved in drugs and made some bad choices while under the influence....

      Wonder if you'd be so smug if that "criminal" was a relative of yours... or the son, daughter, niece, nephew, brother, sister, or cousin of a close friend of yours....

      A lot of people who've committed a crime at some point in their life turn their lives around. But by your standards, it sounds like every convicted criminal should just be put to death because they're completely worthless human beings and the world would "instantly" be better off if they were dead....??

      Wow. Just wow.
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        So, the police officers who beat the man on the horse were justified in their actions, from your black and white perspective? (I'm not condoning the man's actions; but police officers sometimes do cross the line.)



        Because we all know that no one is ever targeted or confronted by the police for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or wearing the wrong clothes (e.g. a hoodie), or having a certain look or skin color...



        Self-righteous much?

        Sometimes those "criminals" and "thugs" are individuals whose lives took a bad turn (e.g. they committed a crime out of desperation), or someone who was set up, or someone who'd gotten involved in drugs and made some bad choices while under the influence....

        Wonder if you'd be so smug if that "criminal" was a relative of yours... or the son, daughter, niece, nephew, brother, sister, or cousin of a close friend of yours....

        A lot of people who've committed a crime at some point in their life turn their lives around. But by your standards, it sounds like every convicted criminal should just be put to death because they're completely worthless human beings and the world would "instantly" be better off if they were dead....??

        Wow. Just wow.
        Yeah that last part is spot on. Specifically for crimes involving weapons, embezzlement, drunk driving, theft, assault, rape, your basic hard core stuff.

        ....anything short of death is...for lack of a better word...disappointing.

        I have a seething deep hatred of people who make a habit of doing crime....I mean its deep....probably even unhealthy.

        ...also I don't accept excuses or reasons to justify circumstances for choosing to do crime. Everyone has a different limit to their tolerance of things.

        on this subject, mine is really short...probably even absent.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          Yeah that last part is spot on. Specifically for crimes involving weapons, embezzlement, drunk driving, theft, assault, rape, your basic hard core stuff.

          ....anything short of death is...for lack of a better word...disappointing.

          I have a seething deep hatred of people who make a habit of doing crime....I mean its deep....probably even unhealthy.

          ...also I don't accept excuses or reasons to justify circumstances for choosing to do crime. Everyone has a different limit to their tolerance of things.

          on this subject, mine is really short...probably even absent.
          Doran;

          You're getting hammered here. Others are bringing up any point I'd make, so I'll give you a breather. In fact, I want to agree with a small part of what you said. From what I've seen, of the recent videos showing shootings by police, except for one instance, the person was running, holding a weapon (real or fake), or resisting arrest. (although sometimes barely)

          And you may well be right. Calm responses by the ...um...dead person...would have, in most cases, prevented them from getting shot.

          There. That was my good deed for the day.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            And you may well be right. Calm responses by the ...um...dead person...would have, in most cases, prevented them from getting shot.

            The problem for Doran is the same can be said for the cop and the sample size of videos that we have seen isn't even close to being enough to make claims for most cases (although intuitively there's little doubt running or resisting increases the likelihood of a bad outcome).

            In the case of Garner for example - he was lying down when he was murdered. He never runs. he never swings. He spends most of his time objecting to being repeatedly targeted. In the end he dies for selling untaxed cigarettes.

            Doran can rant passionately now I suppose that untaxed cigarettes are a danger to the community and puts people " at risk or in harms way" while selling them in stores causes no harm....... as the Surgeon General has determined.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              The problem for Doran is the same can be said for the cop and the sample size of videos that we have seen isn't even close to being enough to make claims for most cases (although intuitively there's little doubt running or resisting increases the likelihood of a bad outcome).
              I meant most cases in the videos I have seen recently. And that's why I said, " From what I've seen".




              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              In the case of Garner for example - he was lying down when he was murdered. He never runs. he never swings. He spends most of his time objecting to being repeatedly targeted. In the end he dies for selling untaxed cigarettes.
              And this is the one exception, I was talking about, when I said, "except for one instance"
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I meant most cases in the videos I have seen recently. And that's why I said, " From what I've seen".
                I am aware Claude but you were agreeing to part of his argument which was nowhere limited to the videos and citing the videos toward that end so its fair game to point out the sampling is not sufficient to bolster any of his points.
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                • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  I am aware Claude but you were agreeing to part of his argument which was nowhere limited to the videos and citing the videos toward that end so its fair game to point out the sampling is not sufficient to bolster any of his points.
                  Yes but I also think its extremely unrealistic to expect police officers to be calm, cooperative and respectful in any and all situations no matter what the circumstances.

                  If you look at it...there are probably...what...several hundred thousand cop/civilian encounters every year..and we've had what...less than 150 controversial deaths?....with only a handful of those being obvious cops in the wrong.

                  Couple hundred thousand vs. a couple hundred....That might be an indication that the cops are actually doing a stellar job of being civil.

                  Maybe instead of demanding that cops be even MORE civil...I submit that the approach to promote the idea of showing respect and cooperation to cops while they try to do their jobs, would go a lot further in reducing unnecessary deaths. Cops are human...but there is a major difference between them and you & I
                  ..THEY have a target on their back all day long. They approach situations, and people all day long that could get them dead.

                  I just have a hard time having sympathy for people who stir the bees nest, then cry about it when they get stung

                  Anyway...petty fascinating video....maybe we could all use a little bit of "walk a mile in another mans shoes"....enjoy.

                  https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...t=mozilla&tt=b
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                    Yes but I also think its extremely unrealistic to expect police officers to be calm, cooperative and respectful in any and all situations no matter what the circumstances.
                    "No matter what the circumstances" doesn't apply to the videos we have seen. The police were not being shot at, they were not being beaten. The Ferguson example may be an exception to that.

                    As far as I have seen, they are trained to keep control of their actions, in dangerous situations.

                    After all, people call the police when bad things happen. That's the job. Personally, I would never do it. But they know the expectations, going into the job.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post


                    Maybe instead of demanding that cops be even MORE civil...I submit that the approach to promote the idea of showing respect and cooperation to cops while they try to do their jobs, would go a lot further in reducing unnecessary deaths. Cops are human..
                    I realize that you are trying to dial back some of your earlier ridiculous statements like rejoicing when anyone is shot by a police officer but you are still dealing in strawmen and you might as well come clean and admit your statements were totally ridiculous.

                    Its not going to fly that anyone was demanding all cops need to be more civil or that anyone is attacking all police officers. Almost everyone is advocating rules and procedures to catch the bad ones not claiming all cops are bad. You just made that up in your head. I do see some systemic problems in law enforcement culture (too much emphasis about being macho among the ones I know and have dealt with) but even that is not an indictment that all police officers succumb to it or even most.

                    If you are upset at media coverage understand that the news will ALWAYS highlight what is different from the norm and thats a good thing. As one reporter put it (I'm paraphrasing) - I don't want to live in a world where its NEWS that people are nice to each other.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      I realize that you are trying to dial back some of your earlier ridiculous statements like rejoicing when anyone is shot by a police officer but you are still dealing in strawmen and you might as well come clean and admit your statements were totally ridiculous.
                      ...Puh Leez...My statements were only "mostly ridiculous"


                      Its not going to fly that anyone was demanding all cops need to be more civil or that anyone is attacking all police officers. Ok well my perception of all the public outcry...demonstrations and so forth ...the OP of this thread etc. are all exercises to deliver that exact idea...but maybe Ive been taking it in wrong the whole time. Almost everyone is advocating rules and procedures to catch the bad ones not claiming all cops are bad. You just made that up in your head. I do see some systemic problems in law enforcement culture (too much emphasis about being macho among the ones I know and have dealt with) Yes but the same can be said of Thug culture...but I don't see anyone in the national conversation acknowledging that as a big part of the problem, and its annoying to me . but even that is not an indictment that all police officers succumb to it or even most.

                      If you are upset at media coverage understand that the news will ALWAYS highlight what is different from the norm and that's a good thing. Yes I understand that and You understand that...but there are a lot who don't...and they are out demonstrating and executing cops just sitting in their cars...when maybe they should be looking in the mirror and asking what does my attitude and behavior and criminal lifestyle do to contribute to the overall problem...instead that aspect of the equation is absent from the media. As one reporter put it (I'm paraphrasing) - I don't want to live in a world where its NEWS that people are nice to each other.
                      ....oh...and I will probably still rejoice when bad people are killed. I just can't bring myself to be sad about stuff like that.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Yes I understand that and You understand that...but there are a lot who don't...and they are out demonstrating and executing cops just sitting in their cars.
                        apparently your silliness knows no end. where are these "a lot" executing cops sitting in their cars??? You are trying desperately to tie the actions of one person to a group that demonstrated over some legitimate issues. Those who have done that linking before have done that for race based reasons....I hope you are not going there as well but I can't say I would be surprised...

                        Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                        If you run from an armed person who as the authority to enforce the law....then you've just availed yourself to a new set of possibilities.
                        and if you shoot someone in the back for running you violate the law and open yourself up to a set of possibilities including legitimate media criticism, public questioning and prosecution for breaking the law so what are you whining about?

                        I know. Its because your fake love of the law only applies to who you want it to apply to.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          apparently your silliness knows no end. where are these "a lot" executing cops sitting in their cars??? You are trying desperately to tie the actions of one person to a group that demonstrated over some legitimate issues. Those who have done that linking before have done that for race based reasons....I hope you are not going there as well but I can't say I would be surprised...
                          mmmkay but its working the other way too...we have a national debate about cops everywhere over the actions of a few. The underlying fuel for my entire point of view is that I think we as a society are approaching this whole debate in completely the wrong way. We should be supporting the cops and empathizing with their perspective in trying to do their job under the conditions they have to do it...we should be condemning thug mentality, disrespectful behavior etc. We should be showing low tolerance for criminal lifestyle, and shunning or scoffing those that perpetuate those ideals.

                          But whats happening is the exact opposite...its all about the dickhead cops.

                          ....and nothing from me on the race card. Race is irrelevant to any argument as far as I'm concerned.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                            mmmkay but its working the other way too...we have a national debate about cops everywhere over the actions of a few. The underlying fuel for my entire point of view is that I think we as a society are approaching this whole debate in completely the wrong way. We should be supporting the cops and empathizing with their perspective in trying to do their job under the conditions they have to do it
                            I don't know what strange world you live in Doran but in the real one we have national debates on crime and guns and mental health every time there is a shooting spree. Do you cover your eyes and ears while those are going on? We often bemoan that some of the perpetrators are better armed than the police and we complain about crime and media covers almost every police officer downed on the job. We have national debates on many issues that affect police and on behalf of their jobs. Thats just a fact.

                            What appears to be the case is you just don't want any kind of national debate of any issue that might embarrass some police officers but thankfully you don't get to decide.


                            ....and nothing from me on the race card. Race is irrelevant to any argument as far as I'm concerned.
                            Great to hear but you can still dispense with the sleazy attempt to stereotype people that don't agree with you as one and the same as people who execute cops.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          apparently your silliness knows no end. where are these "a lot" executing cops sitting in their cars??? You are trying desperately to tie the actions of one person to a group that demonstrated over some legitimate issues. Those who have done that linking before have done that for race based reasons....I hope you are not going there as well but I can't say I would be surprised...



                          and if you shoot someone in the back for running you violate the law and open yourself up to a set of possibilities including legitimate media criticism, public questioning and prosecution for breaking the law so what are you whining about?

                          I know. Its because your fake love of the law only applies to who you want it to apply to.
                          Somewhere you have misinterpreted my viewpoint.

                          I'm not saying a cop is justified in shooting someone in the back just for running...I'm saying...don't be pissy cuz you got shot in the back running from a cop.

                          same as don't be mad at the fan for chopping off your finger when you stuck yur finger in the blades.

                          sure we might have to throw away the fan ...we might have to lock the cop away...but dam..what did you think was going to happen.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                            same as don't be mad at the fan for chopping off your finger when you stuck yur finger in the blades.

                            sure we might have to throw away the fan ...we might have to lock the cop away.
                            Yes of course because just like the fan and the finger the laws of physics demand that when a human runs a bullet is attracted to their back with lethal force. Its a little known Newtonian law.

                            You might want to take a course in philosophy/logic some day though. Good luck to you.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                              Yes of course because just like the fan and the finger the laws of physics demand that when a human runs a bullet is attracted to their back with lethal force. Its a little known Newtonian law.

                              You might want to take a course in philosophy/logic some day though.
                              a couple of you keep referring to this one incident of the guy being shot in the back while running. If I'm not allowed to reference the one incident of the police officer getting shot in her car, as a symbol of anti-cop vigilantism then you shouldn't be able to keep using this back shooting thing as the poster child for the entire cop problem thing.

                              Law of averages.... hundreds of kids playing with fireworks...your going to have some bad incidences....millions of people chopping veggies...your going to lose some fingertips.

                              Hundreds of thousands of cop interactions, your going to get some bad apples.

                              Whats the score up to now...111 or 115 or something...and most of those being avoidable had the victims exercised some common sense.

                              Maybe we should be promoting Respect and Cooperation as the preferred mode for civilians during cop/civilian interactions...I mean...it can't hurt can it?
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                              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                                Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                                a couple of you keep referring to this one incident of the guy being shot in the back while running. If I'm not allowed to reference the one incident of the police officer getting shot in her car, as a symbol of anti-cop vigilantism then you shouldn't be able to keep using this back shooting thing as the poster child for the entire cop problem thing.

                                Law of averages.... hundreds of kids playing with fireworks...your going to have some bad incidences....millions of people chopping veggies...your going to lose some fingertips.

                                Hundreds of thousands of cop interactions, your going to get some bad apples.

                                Whats the score up to now...111 or 115 or something...and most of those being avoidable had the victims exercised some common sense.

                                Maybe we should be promoting Respect and Cooperation as the preferred mode for civilians during cop/civilian interactions...I mean...it can't hurt can it?
                                This is only the latest publicized shooting - not the only one. I checked my figures. The cops only report over 600 killed last year - independent researchers counted 1000 - that's 3 a day. Then you have the other incidents that are just beatings. Are you going to tell me there's nothing wrong with a guy in a wheelchair being beaten senseless? Family dogs are being leveled like target practice fun in some locations, too. Not attacking dogs - just dogs that some insane jackasses who have no business in a badge get a woody over dropping.

                                The truth is more and more cops are becoming increasingly more violent - and part of it is because they knew there would be no consequences other than paid time off. Part of it is that they are limiting IQ levels on qualifying exams - and other problem is that their buds in blue are reticent about reporting them. We need to start demanding better psychological profiling of anyone who's handed any power paired with a badge. They can profile the average citizen, they can profile a cop. They're building a team of brownshirts right now that would be the ultimate military law enforcement - and there is no room for that kind of militarized police force in a free society.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                  This is only the latest publicized shooting - not the only one. I checked my figures. The cops only report over 600 killed last year - independent researchers counted 1000 - that's 3 a day. Then you have the other incidents that are just beatings. Are you going to tell me there's nothing wrong with a guy in a wheelchair being beaten senseless? Family dogs are being leveled like target practice fun in some locations, too. Not attacking dogs - just dogs that some insane jackasses who have no business in a badge get a woody over dropping.

                                  The truth is more and more cops are becoming increasingly more violent - and part of it is because they knew there would be no consequences other than paid time off. Part of it is that they are limiting IQ levels on qualifying exams - and other problem is that their buds in blue are reticent about reporting them. We need to start demanding better psychological profiling of anyone who's handed any power paired with a badge. They can profile the average citizen, they can profile a cop. They're building a team of brownshirts right now that would be the ultimate military law enforcement - and there is no room for that kind of militarized police force in a free society.
                                  Great reply. Worth a deeper looksee thanks
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  I am aware Claude but you were agreeing to part of his argument which was nowhere limited to the videos and citing the videos toward that end so its fair game to point out the sampling is not sufficient to bolster any of his points.
                  I get that. I was trying to be nice to the kid.
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          • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Doran;

            You're getting hammered here. Others are bringing up any point I'd make, so I'll give you a breather. In fact, I want to agree with a small part of what you said. From what I've seen, of the recent videos showing shootings by police, except for one instance, the person was running, holding a weapon (real or fake), or resisting arrest. (although sometimes barely)

            And you may well be right. Calm responses by the ...um...dead person...would have, in most cases, prevented them from getting shot.

            There. That was my good deed for the day.
            Thanks Claude...its all good. I'm having a nice chuckle at my self inflicted belligerence.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      All the talk about the "Police problem" is absolutely moronic and unwarranted.

      No black man or white man has ever been killed by a cop for being cooperative and respectful.

      So here's the deal. If you are the kind of person who's behavior and actions cause a police officer to come around...then you have voluntarily availed yourself to additional possibilities and as such, have no ground to stand on when one of those possibilities results in your arrest, injury or even death.

      Best advice... simply make a choice not to commit crime or associate with those who do.

      The reality is, if you are having a conversation with a police officer and you get yourself shot....well...your just a special kind of stupid.

      I repeat. No black man or white man has ever been shot by the police for being cooperative and respectful. Its never happened. Ever.

      Personally I rejoice every time a criminal is shot. The world is instantly a better place because of it.

      Thugs lives don't matter! ....put that on your T-shirt and wear it proudly.

      That is all.
      I hope your being sarcastic.

      Imagine the millions of folks that don't pay child support, does that deserve a death sentence on the street?
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I hope your being sarcastic.

        Imagine the millions of folks that don't pay child support, does that deserve a death sentence on the street?
        Well at a minimum...since they have in fact broken the law....if any one of them should happen to find themselves in the midst of a cop, for the specific reason of not paying child support...because, again, its against the law....then it can assuredly be said that they deserve that visit.

        Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them.

        ....but ya..I wasn't being sarcastic...if it did turn into a death sentence I wouldn't give a crap if they were in fact guilty

        I have no sympathy or empathy for anyone who breaks the law, especially a law that puts others at risk or in harms way....so I'm probably not the best person to have a conversation about being humane or forgiving.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          Well at a minimum...since they have in fact broken the law....if any one of them should happen to find themselves in the midst of a cop, for the specific reason of not paying child support...because, again, its against the law....then it can assuredly be said that they deserve that visit.

          Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them.

          ....but ya..I wasn't being sarcastic...if it did turn into a death sentence I wouldn't give a crap if they were in fact guilty

          I have no sympathy or empathy for anyone who breaks the law, especially a law that puts others at risk or in harms way....so I'm probably not the best person to have a conversation about being humane or forgiving.
          It must be nice to be so perfect that you've never driven over the speed limit, used your turn signal every single time you've changed lanes or made a turn, or tail gated for even a short period of time.


          Because we know cars kill, maim and damage property and you'd never break a law that puts others "at risk or in harms way".
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Dorian Peck... welcome to the basement
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              Dorian Peck... welcome to the basement
              another reason why this place ought to be illegal
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          • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            It must be nice to be so perfect that you've never driven over the speed limit, used your turn signal every single time you've changed lanes or made a turn, or tail gated for even a short period of time.


            Because we know cars kill, maim and damage property and you'd never break a law that puts others "at risk or in harms way".
            oh that was good.


            Hmm..in my mind I was envisioning crimes being committed with guns and knives, baseball bats, fists and whatnot. ....Mental note...attempt to be more specific during a blathering rant.
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            • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
              This thread reminds me of that other one where things were posted and then there was a kerfuffle.
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          ....so I'm probably not the best person to have a conversation about being humane or forgiving.
          You are however, the master of understatement.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          Well at a minimum...since they have in fact broken the law....if any one of them should happen to find themselves in the midst of a cop, for the specific reason of not paying child support...because, again, its against the law....then it can assuredly be said that they deserve that visit.

          Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them.

          ....but ya..I wasn't being sarcastic...if it did turn into a death sentence I wouldn't give a crap if they were in fact guilty

          I have no sympathy or empathy for anyone who breaks the law, especially a law that puts others at risk or in harms way....so I'm probably not the best person to have a conversation about being humane or forgiving.
          By that disturbing logic your encouraging police to hunt down & shoot people with parking tickets.

          My question is, are you sober?
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          • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            By that disturbing logic your encouraging police to hunt down & shoot people with parking tickets.

            My question is, are you sober?

            Oops, you skipped over my sentence that reads...

            "Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them."

            The issue at hand is how people end up dead from an encounter with a cop. My position is that if the evidence shows that you were a dickhead to the cop, then I'm not going to feel sorry for you for being dead now.

            You can't poke a lion in the face with a stick then get mad at every lion in the world because that lion bit your face off.

            As for parking tickets..that's a bit ridiculous....I will clarify again, as I should have in the beginning... I am thinking about Major crimes, when I speak of crimes and criminality.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

              Oops, you skipped over my sentence that reads...

              "Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them."
              So running from someone that's shouting Hey! You have unpaid parking tickets/child support/whatever..! is a good enough reason to go all rogue cop?







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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Is there a point in trying to pick a fight here? I don't think so.

                That guy ran from a bad cop - it killed him. Had he not run - he would have been arrested...he made what turned out to be bad choice.

                If you run from police - do you EXPECT to escape?

                The one getting attention today is very interesting - the old guy who "thought he had a taser"...turned out to be quite a story. Rich guy perhaps "buying" his way onto the force...that one is going to grow IF the reports are correct.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Is there a point in trying to pick a fight here? I don't think so.

                  That guy ran from a bad cop - it killed him.


                  Did any of these guys have heart attacks running? Then no running did not kill them. The bullets fired did. Should we take focus off of the rapist and say my dear you got your own self raped by going out with the wrong guy?

                  this whole they were criminals or broke the law so they get what they get for running ignores one central and obvious point. According to the said same law the people pulling the triggers are criminals themselves and all would be convicted if they confessed - "They were criminals and they ran so I shot them because they deserved die to for it".

                  The argument is hopelessly idiotic and nothing saves it.
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                • Profile picture of the author yukon
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Is there a point in trying to pick a fight here? I don't think so.

                  That guy ran from a bad cop - it killed him. Had he not run - he would have been arrested...he made what turned out to be bad choice.

                  If you run from police - do you EXPECT to escape?
                  People sometimes run for their life.

                  Look at the guy that took video of the SC shooting, he said he almost deleted the video because he knew the cops knew who he was. He was walking to work, he still thought his own life was in danger for being in the wrong place & making a video.

                  Walking to work isn't a crime (yet).

                  When the public feels like cops are going to hurt them for no reason, somethings very wrong.

                  I guarantee If anyone (sane) in this forum thread witnessed the SC shooting in person, they wouldn't be talking smack how it's justified.
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              • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                So running from someone that's shouting Hey! You have unpaid parking tickets/child support/whatever..! is a good enough reason to go all rogue cop?
                No, but the rogue cop mode could be justifiable if I felt my life was in jeopardy.

                If you run from an armed person who as the authority to enforce the law....then you've just availed yourself to a new set of possibilities.

                No different when you pick up a knife to slice up some vegetables...in doing that you open yourslef to the possibility of slicing your finger depending on how you navigate the situation.

                Perhaps we should take all the guns away from cops. That way no one will ever get wrongly killed by one, and if anyone felt they were being treated unjustly they could just run away, and not fear getting shot in the back. There, problem solved.
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                • Profile picture of the author yukon
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                  No, but the rogue cop mode could be justifiable if I felt my life was in jeopardy.
                  Yep, unpaid child support is the #1 killer of men age 50 & over.

                  Pay child support & live forever...
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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      I repeat. No black man or white man has ever been shot by the police for being cooperative and respectful. Its never happened. Ever.
      You're living in your own private Idaho.

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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post


        I stand corrected.

        But ya...lets keep avoiding any mention of the overwhelming majority of people getting shot by cops actually do something to provoke it.

        Its 100% the cops fault every single time, your right. I'm wrong. All the cop blaming is completely justified. We should be more tolerant of thugs sensitivities, and their needs in performing their thug duties. Stupid cops always in the way.

        Hell...being cooperative and respectful to a cop....oh my god what a dumb idea what the heck was I thinking. Wow. ..did I have a brain fart or what.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          I

          Its 100% the cops fault every single time, your right. I'm wrong. All the cop blaming is completely justified. We should be more tolerant of thugs sensitivities, and their needs in performing their thug duties. Stupid cops always in the way.
          No..... stupid strawman arguments are always in the way of logic . Please look up the fallacious reasoning you just employed

          Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          No one anywhere I see is arguing a cop is at fault every single time

          Hell...being cooperative and respectful to a cop....oh my god what a dumb idea what the heck was I thinking. Wow. ..did I have a brain fart or what.
          I suspect you might be used to them by now.

          Well at a minimum...since they have in fact broken the law....if any one of them should happen to find themselves in the midst of a cop, for the specific reason of not paying child support...because, again, its against the law....then it can assuredly be said that they deserve that visit.

          Whether that visit turns into a death sentence is up to them.
          Silliness......since it needs to be spelt out to you - shooting a citizen because they were not respectful to you is illegal for a police officer to do even if the person is a criminal. SO your whole "its against the law" so they deserve the visit and even a death sentence applies to the police officers themselves as breakers of the law and renders your whole argument self defeating because in that case they are deserving of the public censure , the negative media spotlight you are whining against and according to you are even deserving of being shot and killed without a trial since they broke the law as cops.

          So in this silly world you have concocted anyone that breaks ANY law deserves to be executed/sentenced on the spot if they are not immediately repentant and other cops that come along should execute the cops that executed the victims because they broke the law as well.

          A mindset that advocates vigilante disrespect for laws that govern how officers are to behave under and not above the law is indeed a fertile ground for brain farts.
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          • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            No..... stupid strawman arguments are always in the way of logic . Please look up the fallacious reasoning you just employed

            Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            No one anywhere I see is arguing a cop is at fault every single time



            I suspect you might be used to them by now.



            Silliness......since it needs to be spelt out to you - shooting a citizen because they were not respectful to you is illegal for a police officer to do even if the person is a criminal. SO your whole "its against the law" so they deserve the visit and even a death sentence applies to the police officers themselves as breakers of the law and renders your whole argument self defeating because in that case they are deserving of the public censure , the negative media spotlight you are whining against and according to you are even deserving of being shot and killed without a trial since they broke the law as cops.

            So in this silly world you have concocted anyone that breaks ANY law deserves to be executed/sentenced on the spot if they are not immediately repentant and other cops that come along should execute the cops that executed the victims because they broke the law as well.

            A mindset that advocates vigilante disrespect for laws that govern how officers are to behave under and not above the law is indeed a fertile ground for brain farts.

            Dammit I'm getting my butt kicked at every turn.

            Well played.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      I repeat. No black man or white man has ever been shot by the police for being cooperative and respectful. Its never happened. Ever..
      The first sure sign of a blithering fool is a human being claiming omniscience

      The second sure sign is someone claiming no one has ever been corrupt in a profession known to man

      The third sure sign...is not needed.....because the first two signs give 100% proof of certain idiocy.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post


      I repeat. No black man or white man has ever been shot by the police for being cooperative and respectful. Its never happened. Ever.
      Wow, your credibility went straight out the window right here .
      Thats just a plain 'ignorant' statement
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Wow, your credibility went straight out the window right here .
        This is what happens to you when you watch Judge Dredd too many times per month.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          This is what happens to you when you watch Judge Dredd too many times per month.

          Thanks for the laughs!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Wow, your credibility went straight out the window right here .
        Thats just a plain 'ignorant' statement
        Indeed it was.

        It apparently has happened at least once.

        I still think being respectful and cooperative to a cop is the best possible route to survival.
        ...just kind of surprised that concept is wholly absent from the national conversation.

        Of the 111 cop shootings this year ( I think its 111)...most if not all could likely have been avoided had respectful and cooperative behavior been the main theme of the victims...would you agree?
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    So..this all begs the question.

    What is the solution....any offerings?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      So..this all begs the question.

      What is the solution....any offerings?
      One part of the solution is to have more police cameras that cops can't start, stop, edit or access. There should be citizen watch groups that review these videos.

      Let's also do away with the military equipment the police depts. are being given. All the military equipment left over from all the recent wars is now being given to local police departments. The police are sworn to protect and serve, not intimidate and frighten. Do we really need Barney Fife in control of assault vehicles?

      Maybe more female officers are needed. The stats seem to show there's far less violence with women cops vs. male cops.

      Drugs should be legalized to take away the financial motivation for gangs. The "war on drugs" has been a total failure. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920s created gangsters. Drug prohibition has created gangstas.

      Drug money can either be given to gangs and cartels or to society. Use the money generated from taxes on drugs and saved from the law enforcement system to educate people and pay for drug treatment. Drug usage should be handled by the health system, not the law enforcement system. Doctors and nurses have been educated to deal with the effects of drugs, not cops and lock keys.
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        One part of the solution is to have more police cameras that cops can't start, stop, edit or access. There should be citizen watch groups that review these videos.

        Let's also do away with the military equipment the police depts. are being given. All the military equipment left over from all the recent wars is now being given to local police departments. The police are sworn to protect and serve, not intimidate and frighten. Do we really need Barney Fife in control of assault vehicles?

        Maybe more female officers are needed. The stats seem to show there's far less violence with women cops vs. male cops.

        Drugs should be legalized to take away the financial motivation for gangs. The "war on drugs" has been a total failure. Alcohol prohibition in the 1920s created gangsters. Drug prohibition has created gangstas.

        Drug money can either be given to gangs and cartels or to society. Use the money generated from taxes on drugs and saved from the law enforcement system to educate people and pay for drug treatment. Drug usage should be handled by the health system, not the law enforcement system. Doctors and nurses have been educated to deal with the effects of drugs, not cops and lock keys.
        I agree with all those words
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Use the money generated from taxes on drugs and saved from the law enforcement system to educate people and pay for drug treatment.
          Yes of course because the taxes we pick up on tobacco has just totally offset the expense of lung cancer and other diseases caused by tobacco smoking and the medical establishment has just eradicated cigarette smoking through their counselling


          People with the crazy idea to make all drugs legal always love bringing up alcohol but never address why tobacco and nicotine being legal has not solved that problem even though in most cases addiction is far less with nicotine than many illicit drugs.

          Thankfully and logically in the US there is little support for legalizing any illegal drugs outside of marijuana
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Yes of course because the taxes we pick up on tobacco has just totally offset the expense of lung cancer and other diseases caused by tobacco smoking and the medical establishment has just eradicated cigarette smoking through their counselling


            People with the crazy idea to make all drugs legal always love bringing up alcohol but never address why tobacco and nicotine being legal has not solved that problem even though in most cases addiction is far less with nicotine than many illicit drugs.

            Thankfully and logically in the US there is little support for legalizing any illegal drugs outside of marijuana
            I'll gladly address tobacco. And thanks for bringing it up, as it makes my argument stronger.

            During probation, approx. 78% of American adults smoked. That number is now below 20%, due to research and education funding helped by the taxes on tobacco. These results closely mirror alcohol use over the same time frame.

            However, illegal drug use has sharply increased over the same time. One would have to be in a serious stage of denial to really to think making substances illegal in any way makes their usage go down. Treatment and education does, as well as public acceptance (which is part of education).

            Your "war on drugs" has been a miserable failure, one of the biggest waste of money and violation of human rights in the history of this country. Putting people in prison for making a choice as to what they put in their body is a crime against human rights. Do you think it's a coincidence that the US has the highest prison population and this trend exactly mirrors your war on drugs? Do you own stock in privately owned for-profit prisons?

            Which brings us to, why is it your business what any other person puts in their body? Before about 1910 or so, the US government stayed out of what we did to our own bodies and considered drugs like cocaine and opium to be vices, not crimes.

            How many lives have been ruined by people that think like you who believe drugs are a crime and not a vice? Shouldn't people be judged by their actions and not what they put in their bodies? Why should the money come out of my pocket instead of the gangs and cartels pockets? The addicts are paying either way.

            And, why should people that don't do drugs pay for treatment and prisons instead of the people that do drugs, while the gangs and cartels profit?

            Please don't use "logically" in your argument and stop with the non sequitur argument that because drugs are illegal they will be used less. History shows just the opposite, that legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco) are used way less and illegal drugs are way used more.

            Another fallacy in your tobacco argument is that a problem has to be "solved" and not that another option may be better than the one being used. I doubt anything will completely "solve" drug addiction.

            However, to claim that because tobacco use has dropped from 78% to under 20% usage that it's been a "failure" because it hasn't been "solved" doesn't make sense to this "crazy" person. The reality is, your "solution" to the drug problem hasn't exactly solved the problem. Hello?

            Let's also include your strawman that my point about using revenue generated by legalizing drugs would "totally offset" the expenses of drugs. I never said that it would "totally offset" the expenses and is an argument you made up. However, in your tobacco example, we would also need to include the expenses of the judicial/law enforcement if tobacco was made illegal to be more accurate.

            For legalization to make financial sense, it only has to REDUCE the expenses, not "totally offset" them. And note, my use of financial examples in this post are in the same context and not to be taken as they will totally eliminate all tax payer expenses dealing with the addiction problems. In addition to treatment and legal system expenses, how much money is being spent dealing with gangs and cartels, all of which are caused by illegalization.

            BTW, some researchers have claimed that tobacco/nicotine is actually more addictive than cocaine. Although it seems most qualified experts disagree, even those experts claim that tobacco is highly addictive, as is alcohol. I'm not sure what your point is...just how addictive does something have to be? Another comment that lacks logic.

            Facts are our friends. For someone that claims to be logical, you sure have a lot of fallacies in your short post. You'll need a lot more than fallacies and claims of insanity to change my mind.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Which brings us to, why is it your business what any other person puts in their body? Before about 1910 or so, the US government stayed out of what we did to our own bodies and considered drugs like cocaine and opium to be vices, not crimes.
              The argument pasted above isn't a good one. Before 1910 it didn't matter what YOU put in your body. I wasn't paying for your health care - or your food and housing - and you weren't driving high powered vehicles on roads where my family travels.

              Drugs WERE vices back then because any ill effects were on YOU - not on society as a while.

              I'm not against legalization nor for it. I don't like that it's being done for monetary gain rather than because it's been found to be harmless.

              I see the points for it but I also saw the reality of what can happen to someone who overuses weed. It's not harmless and it's odd to see anti-tobacco people promoting mj...it's all smoke, isn't it? But - I haven't decided even though I now live in a state considering legalization.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                The argument pasted above isn't a good one. Before 1910 it didn't matter what YOU put in your body. I wasn't paying for your health care - or your food and housing - and you weren't driving high powered vehicles on roads where my family travels.

                Drugs WERE vices back then because any ill effects were on YOU - not on society as a while.

                I'm not against legalization nor for it. I don't like that it's being done for monetary gain rather than because it's been found to be harmless.

                I see the points for it but I also saw the reality of what can happen to someone who overuses weed. It's not harmless and it's odd to see anti-tobacco people promoting mj...it's all smoke, isn't it? But - I haven't decided even though I now live in a state considering legalization.
                And your argument isn't a good one, you are still paying, in this case by way of violence, crime and incarceration, which BTW means you're still paying for the addicts' health care on top of the prison bills. Ironic, huh?


                People complain about the high cost of education, but don't say a thing about the expense of incarceration. What is it? Something like 1 year of prison time costs the same as 4 years of education?


                It's a basic human rights issue in addition to a financial issue and why you think you have a right to tell others what they can do with their bodies.


                Drugs were vices back then because society didn't think the gov should tell people what they should do with their bodies. However, society still frowned upon drug users. It didn't change in 1919 because we starting paying for their health insurance. It changed because people felt that drugs and alcohol were harmful to society and making them illegal would reduce their usage. The same mistake they made with alcohol.


                Your argument also falls apart with your "high powered vehicles" statement. Not only is the "my family" overly dramatic, you fail to realize I drove over a million CITY miles as a cab driver. I'm concerned about myself.


                Alcohol is legal. You worked at a casino that probably gave away free alcohol. We don't punish people for drinking alcohol.


                We punish people for DRIVING under the influence of drinking alcohol. And the same should be done with drug addicts. If they are high and drive and put others at higher risk, they should be punished. And they should be treated using money from drug users, so we don't have to pay for treatment and there's a much better chance they won't repeat the problem in the future.


                But think of how bad things would be if we all drank like they did in the past? You want safer streets? Then reduce the number of drug addicts. The old way obviously isn't working and believe it or not, people are driving on drugs right now.


                Let's not forget the racial implications of making drugs illegal, which is a major reason prohibition of drugs wasn't repealed when it was for alcohol. MJ laws targeted Mexicans. Opium laws targeted Asians....So it wasn't all about vice.


                As far as MJ, people abused it when it was illegal. The smoke is the same whether it's legal or not legal. But when it's legal, the money to create anti-MJ commercials is paid by legal MJ smokers. And there's a good campaign just starting here in Colorado, funded by taxes paid for by MJ smokers and not by non-smokers.


                I've posted this before...I believe legalizing MJ will increase its use in the future. However long term, I believe if the tax money is used to educate and treat addictive people, drug use will decrease over generations, based on what we know about alcohol and tobacco. Again, the way were doing things now isn't working.


                BTW, gambling in a casino used to be a crime, then gambling was legalized and considered a vice. How'd that work out for you personally?
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I'll gladly address tobacco. And thanks for bringing it up, as it makes my argument stronger.
              In the basement anything passes for logic so you are free to delude yourself here

              During probation, approx. 78% of American adults smoked. That number is now below 20%, due to research and education funding helped by the taxes on tobacco.
              Bull.....Over time People saw enough people close to them or their family die from tobacco use. Thats what drove the point home for most people to quit. leaving the Millions upon millions that died t drive that point home is almost criminal. Thats what happens when using a substance kills 6+ million people a year. everyone gets a wake up call and yet thats still 6 million people a year even today. If this is what you call effective

              CDC - Fact Sheet - Fast Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use

              you have your head in the sand. Your legal nicotene kills millions each year and creates an incredible burden of billions in treating resulting illnesses (even these that don't cause death) that is not offset by collecting taxes on cigarettes. IF you think so you need to learn now to add.

              Its a total laugher that you think tobacco policy helps prove your point when tobacco use is the number one killer in the US and ticks off about a 100 million lives a decade. Where do you people learn to think?

              and heres the kicker - for most people in most situations its not as addictive as the drugs you wish to legalize

              However, illegal drug use has sharply increased over the same time. One would have to be in a serious stage of denial to really to think making substances illegal in any way makes their usage go down.
              One would have to be brain dead to think making Cocaine more readily available would not make the challenge that many parents have of keeping it away from their children harder. For generations my family has been able to keep it away from their children and in part thats because they kept away from the people selling it. That wouldn't be the case i f they went into legit stores and could buy it but of course since you think tobacco being legal proves our point I guess we could have billboards advertising the new brands of Cocaine and Heroin. Hey they would be legal businesses so you couldn't deny them advertising now could you? to you its a human right issue

              Your "war on drugs" has been a miserable failure
              Compared to what? Its easy to spout nonsense when your experiment of allowing all drugs to be legal hasn't been tried (and thankfully won't be for the sheer stupidity of making a drug that can kill you (or give you heart issues) in one shot readily available. Marijuana has been tried but to compare Marijuana to cocaine and heroine is just asinine.

              So you are declaring something a failure with no data as to your alternative...brilliant non thinking there. Take a bow.

              , one of the biggest waste of money and violation of human rights in the history of this country . Putting people in prison for making a choice as to what they put in their body is a crime against human rights.
              and now your argument just breaks down into full blown idiocy. Considering that cocaine is often pushed on first time users (particularly teenagers) to get them addicted claiming its a violation of human rights to disallow substances that biologically control behavior is just stupid. Again where do you people learn to think?

              Let's also include your strawman that my point about using revenue generated by legalizing drugs would "totally offset" the expenses of drugs. I never said that it would "totally offset" the expenses and is an argument you made up.
              Sorry.....Assuming common sense doesn't qualify for a strawman argument. One would assume that an intelligent person would bring up taxes if they were a net gain over the present situation. It wouldn't be . What would be the point of claiming "well we can collect taxes on that if the net expenditures of the program far exceeds it? See anyone advocating a program in congress presently using that logic? Care to wonder why?

              For legalization to make financial sense, it only has to REDUCE the expenses, not "totally offset" them. And note, my use of financial examples in this post are in the same context and not to be taken as they will totally eliminate all tax payer expenses dealing with the addiction problems. In addition to treatment and legal system expenses, how much money is being spent dealing with gangs and cartels, all of which are caused by illegalization.
              and how much money is spent on health care due to presently legal nicotene and drugs.Perhaps do some research?

              Although it seems most qualified experts disagree, even those experts claim that tobacco is highly addictive, as is alcohol. I'm not sure what your point is...just how addictive does something have to be? Another comment that lacks logic.
              Actually another comment of yours that shows you don't know how to process logic. SInce even you have to admit that qualified experts consider nicotene less addictive (a debate in itself dependent on usage) it stands to reason that people would be more likely addicted and find it harder to quit Cocaine use than cigarette smoking so the numbers would be harder to reduce than cigarette usage. That it s hard for you to connect the dots on that says it all about who lacks logic

              Perhaps you should return to Claude Jokes?

              Facts are our friends. For someone that claims to be logical, you sure have a lot of fallacies in your short post. You'll need a lot more than fallacies and claims of insanity to change my mind.
              Your logic that Tobacco proves/ your point or makes it stronger (...lol...) has been destroyed by the facts of the millions of deaths caused by your legal drug available in cigarette smoking. Why would anyone care about changing your mind? Who are you for that to be the supreme goal? The public rejects the legalization of almost every drug besides marijuana because they are sane and rational. You lose and will continue losing. You are part of a minority that has no clout (nor good reasoning) and besides pointing out the fallacies of your argument for sport and entertainment (As I am now doing) you can be safely ignored.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                In the basement anything passes for logic so you are free to delude yourself here
                Typical response from you. Just more insults from someone without the emotional IQ of a plant.
                It's impossible for you to make a comment without insulting others because your entire self esteem means you have to be right and you somehow think putting down others makes you look better. Are you really that insecure?
                Bull.....Over time People saw enough people close to them or their family die from tobacco use. Thats what drove the point home for most people to quit. leaving the Millions upon millions that died t drive that point home is almost criminal. Thats what happens when using a substance kills 6+ million people a year. everyone gets a wake up call and yet thats still 6 million people a year even today. If this is what you call effective
                Irrelavant Mr. Logic. Using this "logic", people should also be able to see what drugs have done to their friends and family over the same time period. Apply this equally to both sides of the equation.

                you have your head in the sand. Your legal nicotene kills millions each year and creates an incredible burden of billions in treating resulting illnesses (even these that don't cause death) that is not offset by collecting taxes on cigarettes. IF you think so you need to learn now to add.
                Another strawman and feeble insult as an ad-hominem attack. It isn't "my tobacco" and if you had a bit of intellectual integrity you wouldn't use comment like that.
                And you also don't like to address my point, which is smoking has gone down SIGNIFIGANLTY.
                BTW, I don't think so, it's something else you feel a need to make up to "prove" yourself to be correct so you can pretend to feel good about yourself, as you obviously try to get your self worth from pretending you are smarter than other people.
                To help you out, I'll explain again. I never said smoking didn't cost money. I said it has declined from 78% to about 18%. Deal with the facts instead of making things up.
                Its a total laugher that you think tobacco policy helps prove your point when tobacco use is the number one killer in the US and ticks off about a 100 million lives a decade. Where do you people learn to think?
                I'm a former poker player. I'd bet you're not laughing. As a matter of fact, I bet you're irritated. And I'm all in.
                But, think of how much worse a killer and health problem tobacco would be if 78% of the US smoked, instead of just 18%. You forgot that part of the equation.
                and heres the kicker - for most people in most situations its not as addictive as the drugs you wish to legalize
                Irrelevant. What is relevant is how to best deal with those that have these addictions.
                One would have to be brain dead to think making Cocaine more readily available would not make the challenge that many parents have of keeping it away from their children harder. For generations my family has been able to keep it away from their children and in part thats because they kept away from the people selling it. That wouldn't be the case i f they went into legit stores and could buy it but of course since you think tobacco being legal proves our point I guess we could have billboards advertising the new brands of Cocaine and Heroin. Hey they would be legal businesses so you couldn't deny them advertising now could you? to you its a human right issue
                Or, since you can't figure it out for yourself, we could ban advertising for the hard drugs, like we already do with tobacco.


                FYI, legal MJ shops in Colorado can't advertise on billboards. I suggest you leave these things to people that are a little better creative thinkers than you are, as it seems you can only come up with the worst case scenarios and aren't a solution minded person.

                And for having it in "legit stores"? Why do you have to make things up again? I can think of plenty of other ways to distribute coke, such as they way they do with legal drugs. Or have special clinics set up, paid for by the revenue. Seriously, you can't think of a better way?

                Alcohol was made "readily available" and it's use has declined since the says of speak easies. Real world examples don't seem to agree with your made up assumptions.

                But I think the bigger question is, if your way of making drugs illegal is working so well, why the struggle to keep your family's kids away from drug sellers and users?

                Compared to what? Its easy to spout nonsense when your experiment of allowing all drugs to be legal hasn't been tried (and thankfully won't be for the sheer stupidity of making a drug that can kill you (or give you heart issues) in one shot readily available. Marijuana has been tried but to compare Marijuana to cocaine and heroine is just asinine.
                Still making even more things up. I never compared MJ to coke. No need to lie.
                So you are declaring something a failure with no data as to your alternative...brilliant non thinking there. Take a bow.
                "No data" is correct. However, no data is better than bad data and 30 years of failure.
                and now your argument just breaks down into full blown idiocy. Considering that cocaine is often pushed on first time users (particularly teenagers) to get them addicted claiming its a violation of human rights to disallow substances that biologically control behavior is just stupid. Again where do you people learn to think?
                Obvoiusly I learn to think from better sources than you did. You just mentioned in your previous comment that I don't have any data. Neither do you smart guy. All we know is your way ain't working, but you are so emotionally tied to your beliefs, it's impossible for you to admit.
                And the violation of human rights isn't necessarily about use. It's mostly about incarceration.
                Sorry.....Assuming common sense doesn't qualify for a strawman argument.
                You're correct. It's your use of a strawman argument(s) that qualify.

                One would assume that an intelligent person would bring up taxes if they were a net gain over the present situation. It wouldn't be . What would be the point of claiming "well we can collect taxes on that if the net expenditures of the program far exceeds it?
                Colorado is proving it's a net gain with MJ. What's your proof it won't? Where's your data? That's right, you already said there isn't any.

                But again, we know your way hasn't worked and has been given 30 years.

                See anyone advocating a program in congress presently using that logic? Care to wonder why?
                So your proof of logic is using congress? Are you serious? BTW, what's Rand Paul's position on the subject?
                and how much money is spent on health care due to presently legal nicotene and drugs.Perhaps do some research?
                You brought it up, you do the research. I don't care to, since it's totally irrelevant to any point I've made.
                Actually another comment of yours that shows you don't know how to process logic. SInce even you have to admit that qualified experts consider nicotene less addictive (a debate in itself dependent on usage) it stands to reason that people would be more likely addicted and find it harder to quit Cocaine use than cigarette smoking so the numbers would be harder to reduce than cigarette usage. That it s hard for you to connect the dots on that says it all about who lacks logic
                It's irrelevant how hard something is to quit. For those with half a clue, and to repeat it for you, what matters is the best way to help people quit, regardless of how hard it is.

                And I didn't "have to" admit anything. I stated both sides of the issue, which is something you are emotionally incapable of doing, and something someone with intellectual integrity does.

                Perhaps you should return to Claude Jokes?
                I can do both. But perhaps you should return to running people out of the SEO forum with your rudeness and inability to have civil discussion with anyone.
                Your logic that Tobacco proves/ your point or makes it stronger (...lol...) has been destroyed by the facts of the millions of deaths caused by your legal drug available in cigarette smoking.
                Again, I'd bet you're not "LOL". I'll raise.

                But keep repeating your same irrelevant point. The more you say it, the more you'll think it's true.

                Why would anyone care about changing your mind?
                You sure seem to be putting in a lot of effort...

                Who are you for that to be the supreme goal?
                I'm a person with an opinion that has put a lot of thought into it over the years. Who are you to say that continuing down the same failed path and imprisoning people with vices is the "supreme goal"?

                The public rejects the legalization of almost every drug besides marijuana because they are sane and rational. You lose and will continue losing. You are part of a minority that has no clout (nor good reasoning) and besides pointing out the fallacies of your argument for sport and entertainment (As I am now doing) you can be safely ignored.
                Yep. Just like the public's opinion about gay marriage and MJ about 10 years ago.

                And your supreme ignorance is really showing here. There's actually starting to be rumbles about legalizing hard drugs after seeing the results of legalizing MJ.

                It's also logic 101 that the past doesn't equal the future. Another logical failure on your part, Mr. Logic.

                Even if it never happens, it's illogical to conclude that means it wouldn't be a better option. It would be illogical to think so without trying.

                We do know it being illegal for 80-90 years hasn't worked and neither has your war on drugs for the past 30. We do know that before drugs were illegal, drug usage was lower. Those are FACTS. You can try to spin them any way you want.

                Mr. Logic...Instead of insults that only show your emotional weakness, how about some actual, relevant point? None of your crap actually addresses the situation. Your entire "strategy" is to insult. In the world of logical thinking, that's what we call "ad hominem attacks".

                Take this challenge. Try to make a substantial response to anyone you disagree with without insulting them or their position. You can't do it, can you? It's impossible for you. You may want to think about why you are so incapable.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Maybe more female officers are needed. The stats seem to show there's far less violence with women cops vs. male cops.


        I will have to agree.

        Historical speaking, Testicles and Guns make a horrific combo !!
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        Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      So..this all begs the question.

      What is the solution....any offerings?
      1. When not in danger & unarmed subject is fleeing refrain from opening fire with gun.
      2. Exercise more so officer can easily outrun slow 50 year old overweight subject.
      3. When in doubt, get a 2nd opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        1. When not in danger & unarmed subject is fleeing refrain from opening fire with gun.
        2. Exercise more so officer can easily outrun slow 50 year old overweight subject.
        3. When in doubt, get a 2nd opinion.
        Somehow those things feel short of being a real solution.

        1. then what....what if hes running for a gun? what if he comes back later with backup...what if you just let him go...what if every body who gets pulled over or is approached by a cop just runs away because the know the cop cant do anything. I realize that the cop in the example made a piss poor decision...but is the heat of the moment situation going to be identical every time someone runs from a cop?...you can't just implement broad scope training cops to refrain from shooting...its a case by case judgement call and unfortunately your going to get bad judgement a couple times a year. Had the fella not run he'd still be alive...again...bad judgement rears its ugly head. Perhaps the general public could use some training on how to interact with a cop using respect and cooperation as our primary tools....and also not running.

        2. then what, so you keep pace with him while running...going to talk him into giving up? tackle him?...well now your vulnerable to physical assault, stabbing, stealing your gun...get sued for tackling him and twisting his ankle.

        3. Yeah I'm all for that. Very smart tactic...however what happens when the situation doesn't afford that extra time to do that? You still have to rely on a judgement call...and as we know...your going to get a bad one every 1000 times or whatever it stat is....but is the guy running away always going to be running simply to get away?...are you sure?...can you guarantee every cop in America that they don't need to pull out their weapon every single time someone runs away from them? ....or every time someone gets aggressive?

        If you can look the wife and children of every cop in the eye and guarantee that no cop will ever be harmed, not one time ever, in any incident where someone runs away from them, then I can agree that they have no business touching their weapons in that situation.

        I think your overall theme is ..."Cops have to do a better Job" and I would agree that's always a good thing....however I feel like the bigger, quicker difference is going to be made by pointing the finger at the general public and saying Hey look...you have to take the responsibility first if you want things to change.....#1 choose not to do crime for starters. #2 Make good decisions when interacting with a cop.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I'm with you. This thread is another reminder to me of why the basement is the basement in more than one way...... must take break
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I have an older sister who is a retired LAPD police officer and I also have many friends in law enforcement. They have opened my eyes to a world that very few in the public get to see. Well, that's definitely changing now with mini-digital cameras, smart phones, security /atm cameras everywhere, etc.

    I'm a big supporter of our law enforcement officers because of the type of job they do and putting their lives on the line in order to "protect and serve." However, the reality is, that cops are people just like everyone else. And even though they go through a rigorous background check and take a psych test, etc. some bad ones still get hired.

    There are cops that make mistakes and there are ones that are simply bad. There are racists cops and there are cops within the LAPD and the LA Sherrif's that have their own gang tats, gang signs, and secret clubs (as one example). If you think shows like the SHIELD and movies like Training Day are fictional, my sister and her friends would tell you there's more truth in there than not.

    On top of all that, not all police departments are run and managed equally. Some are just flat out mismanaged. With the technology we have now we are capturing more of this. I don't live very far from where Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by Fullerton cops and I'm glad that that beating got captured on video. But the cold, hard reality is that this stuff happens all the time in the streets and in our prisons and MOST of it does not get captured on video.

    To Doran Peck, it's not a viable argument or debate point to say "just be respectful" to the police and nothing will happen. Do you know how many times a day people get pulled over and harassed for NO reason? Especially if you are an ethnic minority. There are bad cops out there who get their jollies harassing people, even beating them up. Every once in a while they get caught and you hear about it on the news.

    I personally think that the majority of cops are honest, good people and that it's the bad minority that gives them a bad rap.

    I think it's disingenuous to say you have no sympathy for people who break the law because even if you break the law, the police officer is supposed to behave in a professional manner. If his or her life is not in danger or they are not in danger of harm, they are expected to behave in a certain way.

    I think Kurt brings up an excellent point that all officers should have cameras on them that they cannot turn on or off. That would protect the officer as much as it would protect the citizen.

    RoD
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    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    73 year old who mistaked gun for taser and kills man speaks.


    Video...


    Tulsa Deputy Bob Bates begins media offensive by lying on the Today Show

    I'm not sure if he's lying or not but he speaks on the debacle.

    Note: His taser was on his chest area and his gun was around his waist. I think he had a senior moment and IMHO, there should be a cutoff age for policemen.


    This is related and disturbing...


    Unjust police killing of Tulsa man, Eric Harris, reveals a deep and dangerous scandal in Oklahoma:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/0...ma?detail=hide

    Buy-a-Badge' Programs Are a Recipe for Disaster, and Eric Harris Paid the Price:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ryan-k...b_7079616.html
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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