Phenomenal Magic Trick. Anyone Know How He Did It?

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I just watched this on Britain's Got Talent (I think)

Can anyone figure out how it was done?

He Told The Judges To Look At The Screen. Nothing Could Prepare Them For What They Saw!
  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    Its always some trick babe. There's no such thing as real magic.
    Edit- Jesus that link has a Zillion ads.
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    • Profile picture of the author nbsdemo
      It is an amazing combination of tricks. Thanks for sharing.
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    • Profile picture of the author icoachu
      Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

      Its always some trick babe. There's no such thing as real magic.
      Edit- Jesus that link has a Zillion ads.
      Great example of viral content distribution sites.

      I believe there are templates and even Twitter bot networks for spreading such 'content.'

      Pretty smart... while it lasts.

      FB has been cracking down on viral content.

      First, it's the fraudulent 'satire' stories... next, who knows what's next?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
    Using magic, clearly.

    Sorry, hammered at the airport bar again.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I'm sure it's easy to figure out. I just have to watch Amanda Holden a couple more times
    before I report back.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      The bank notes, clever sleight of hand.

      The card trick could have failed but could only be done by verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card.

      Darren Brown's very good at that.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
        Let's review, shall we?...

        Case study # 1...

        Claude posts a video of a card trick.
        Very soon thereafter, lanfear posts this... (post # 6)...

        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        The card trick could have failed but could only be done by verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card.

        Darren Brown's very good at that.
        This is the part of that post I want to focus on, for a moment...

        "...could only be done by..."

        the question really is, what thought process ends with the typing of such a bold conclusion? I don't know -- but I can say it's a mind map that does NOT include a branch that says, "maybe I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, on this topic."

        Then the next part...

        "verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card."


        That, we were told, is the ONLY WAY the trick could've been done.
        We were told this very confidently, and DEFINITIVELY!

        Then (equally as confidently)...

        "Darren Brown's very good at that."

        ________________________

        Now the results of Case Study # 1...

        "Only method" ultimately shown to be...

        > Not even there at all.
        > 100% F-A-L-S-E.
        > Never happened.
        > A total FANTASY.
        > Not needed.
        > Not even POSSIBLE! (if you STILL insist it's possible, show me someone else doing it)

        Actual method: SIMPLE CONJURING TRICK available for any 10 year old to buy on ebay for <$20, and has been available for 20+ years.

        FALLOUT: Original "explanation" which was stated as FACT, TOTALLY TROUNCED!!!

        In essence, lanfear was as wrong as wrong can be.

        ___________________________

        Case Study # 2...

        lanfear treats us to a Derren Brown video, which he presents as a BRIGHT SHINING EXAMPLE of how it IS possible to use super subtle ninja people-influencing skills -- the BMX video.

        He further states that DB is "a joy to watch!" AND that DB "does not do [regular] conjuring tricks."


        Now the results of Case Study # 2...

        "Only method" ultimately shown to be...

        > Not even there at all.
        > 100% F-A-L-S-E.
        > A total FANTASY.
        > Never happened.
        > Not needed.
        > Not even POSSIBLE! (if you STILL insist it's possible, show me someone else doing it)

        Actual method: SIMPLE CONJURING TRICK -- very basic conjuring trick, at that!!

        Again, lanfear was CERTAIN that DB WAS using "ninja mind control" and that DB does NOT do "conjuring tricks."

        Turns out a simple conjuring trick is EXACTLY what DB was doing in this video.

        FALLOUT: Original "explanation" which was stated as "a joy to watch" FACT, TOTALLY TROUNCED!!!

        In essence, lanfear was as wrong as wrong can be... AGAIN!

        ________________________

        Now, what's next? Wanna try for three?

        -- TW

        PS: There's a WORLD of difference between saying, "That's the ONLY way it can be done," and saying, "that's the only way it can be done, I CAN THINK OF."

        PPS: lanfear -- don't get me wrong -- I have nothing against you personally. I don't even know you. I'm sure you're a very nice person. I'm actually trying to HELP you, by showing you the truth in these matters. You seem to be semi-idolizing this DB dude. I like him too. I think he's very clever. But I (and the entire magic community) see very clearly what he's doing -- and part of that is feeding the public a bunch of pseudo-science *hooey!* I'm trying to HELP you see through that. You keep not letting yourself do that.

        PPPS: If you don't believe me, don't you have any other magicians you could discuss the "DB" topic with? Just make sure they've been in the biz long enough to really know what's what.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Hi Claude...

    Just as in the IM world, there are a LOT of people who will gladly tell you "answers" even though they have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT -- same holds true int he magic world.

    I have been in the magic world since I was 8. Well over 40 years.

    The "answers" given above this post are BUNK.

    *ANY* card (except ace of spades) could've been named.

    When well posted magicians watch videos like this, they are AMAZED in a different way.
    And that is this... HOW CAN "WORLDLY" PEOPLE (like the judges, in this case) have ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE of ANYTHING in the magic world -- to the point where they will be STUNNED (as you were), AND think the magician in question HAS amazing abilities they they have "NEVER SEEN BEFORE!!!" -- when the truth is, that trick is IMMEDIATELY available in ANY magic store, for $20.

    Yes, it is a great, vastly superior trick (more on that in a minute), but it has been performed ZILLIONS of times all over the world by RANK AMATEUR magicians (many under the age of 10), all over the world, ever since it was first invented and marketed to magicians! (in the mid-late 90s)

    From the perspective of the magic world, to see "the world" suddenly "stunned beyond belief" by something "so unique and different" (when it is NOT new or unique, and requires almost no "talent") is like if you were to walk out there, do a SIMPLE SUMMERSAULT, and have the world leap to its feet in total AWE of you. You can see how that REACTION would AMAZE those in the gymnastics world, yes?

    Now, back to that card trick in particular. I am known in all corners of the globe (in the magic world, not the "regular" world), for my magic inventions. For many years I travelled the world to magic conventions, selling my inventions.

    That particular invention (that card trick, which is NOT my invention), caught my eye the second it came out. I called the inventor to DOUBLE CHECK that it actually was + did what he claimed it did. I IMMEDIATELY sensed that it would become a CLASSIC, so I ordered A LOT of them (A LOT of them!). At that exact time I was just about to go to europe to another convention. I took this huge bunch of this trick with me -- and I took one of them to LEARN IT ON THE PLANE.

    Then, at the convention, I "debuted" the trick (giving the real inventor full credit, of course -- we magicians are REAL STICKLERS about giving proper credit to inventors!!!!!). It was a total SELL OUT!

    Since that initial convention, I went on to sell THOUSANDS of them via my demonstrating it all over the world at conventions. I sold so many of them, and became so attached to the trick (as well as my own inventions), that there are STILL some magicians who MISTAKENLY think *I* was the inventor of this trick.

    Hope that helps.

    -- TW

    PS: If your amazement of the magic in the video is about some other trick he did in that segment, let me know + I can shed some light on that if you want -- but, I do stick to the "oath" of not revealing methods to laymen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      Hi Claude...

      Just as in the IM world, there are a LOT of people who will gladly tell you "answers" even though they have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT -- same holds true int he magic world.
      .
      The last part of the trick, the card flip....

      I can see only two ways that is done.

      The other side of each card is all one picture, each card with a different reveal card in the square. The guy flips the right card over, inserting it in the end of the deck.... before he rifles through them.

      Or, (And I think more likely) he has one of every card on his person somewhere, and inserts that card in the end of the deck, just before he flips them.

      I just can't think of another way to do it, unless editing was involved on the show.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        The last part of the trick, the card flip....

        I can see only two ways that is done.

        The other side of each card is all one picture, each card with a different reveal card in the square. The guy flips the right card over, inserting it in the end of the deck.... before he rifles through them.

        Or, (And I think more likely) he has one of every card on his person somewhere, and inserts that card in the end of the deck, just before he flips them.

        I just can't think of another way to do it, unless editing was involved on the show.
        It appears from that Amazon product above that it's some kind of clever trick deck that can display any card in the a translucent window, something like that. If that's the case then it's nothing special except for a bit of dexterity and showmanship in him selecting it.

        Here is Derren Brown just using conversation to convince Simon Pegg that his dream gift would be a red BMX bike which is what he then produced from his gift box. Just to show it is possible to manipulate people like that. Even Simon Cowell. A joy to behold this... (extra suprise at the end)

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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          It appears from that Amazon product above that it's some kind of clever trick deck that can display any card in the a translucent window, something like that. If that's the case then it's nothing special except for a bit of dexterity and showmanship in him selecting it.

          Here is Derren Brown just using conversation to convince Simon Pegg that his dream gift would be a red BMX bike which is what he then produced from his gift box. Just to show it is possible to manipulate people like that. Even Simon Cowell. A joy to behold this... (extra suprise at the end)
          When I first was watching the trick, I thought the design in the cards was suggesting a specific card. The problem with that, is that it isn't 100% dependable. Had he not asked Cowell to pick any card, I would have guessed that it was manipulating the answers. But I've studied that, and didn't see it anywhere. I also considered that they edited the show to make the trick look more dramatic (magician specials are notorious for that). But that would have killed the show, had it been found out.

          For a moment, I considered that Cowell was in on the trick. But it's too easy for that to blow up in his face if anyone found out.

          I knew it had to be mechanical in the cards, to guarantee it would always work. This guy only had one shot. I considered that the angle you saw the cards in may have been important, because it was shown on the screen....but the magician couldn't guarantee the angle of the camera.

          And....one of the judges could have touched the cards....so.....the card switch had to be done, after the card was chosen, and palming 50 cards, and rifling through them, without giving it away, would have been too clumsy.

          He had some verbiage before the reveal, I assumed to take up time.....

          What I don't know, is how the cards were grouped on his body, to make any card easy to access. I also thought that maybe the card was really just the other side of one of the regular cards, and could be manipulated by memorizing the order of the cards, and slipping the right card in the back of the deck. And it's still possible that's how it was done. But that would be risky, if someone touched the deck, and looked at the other side of the cards.

          Had the camera always been on the magician, I think I could have seen the switch of cards. Or seen the edit of the tape to cover the trick.

          But...most likely, the guy had one of every possible card on him, and just palmed the right one, right at the end.


          or...magic is real, and my whole reality has just been shattered.

          Strangely, I have no real idea how the first part of the act was done (flipping bills back and forth). A magician friend once actually showed me how to do that, and I've simply forgotten.


          I'll bet we could find that on Youtube. It's a common manipulation.


          Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

          PS: If your amazement of the magic in the video is about some other trick he did in that segment, let me know + I can shed some light on that if you want -- but, I do stick to the "oath" of not revealing methods to laymen.
          Tim; I really am familiar with many magic tricks, and was a fair amateur magician in my youth. I think I know how it was done, as I posted here. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'd also like to buy the trick, if you have any left, or know where I can get it. PM me, if you like.

          Thanks, Buckaroo.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            When I first was watching the trick, I thought the design in the cards was suggesting a specific card. The problem with that, is that it isn't 100% dependable. Had he not asked Cowell to pick any card, I would have guessed that it was manipulating the answers. But I've studied that, and didn't see it anywhere. I also considered that they edited the show to make the trick look more dramatic (magician specials are notorious for that). But that would have killed the show, had it been found out.

            For a moment, I considered that Cowell was in on the trick. But it's too easy for that to blow up in his face if anyone found out.

            I knew it had to be mechanical in the cards, to guarantee it would always work. This guy only had one shot. I considered that the angle you saw the cards in may have been important, because it was shown on the screen....but the magician couldn't guarantee the angle of the camera.

            And....one of the judges could have touched the cards....so.....the card switch had to be done, after the card was chosen, and palming 50 cards, and rifling through them, without giving it away, would have been too clumsy.

            He had some verbiage before the reveal, I assumed to take up time.....

            What I don't know, is how the cards were grouped on his body, to make any card easy to access. I also thought that maybe the card was really just the other side of one of the regular cards, and could be manipulated by memorizing the order of the cards, and slipping the right card in the back of the deck. And it's still possible that's how it was done. But that would be risky, if someone touched the deck, and looked at the other side of the cards.

            Had the camera always been on the magician, I think I could have seen the switch of cards. Or seen the edit of the tape to cover the trick.

            But...most likely, the guy had one of every possible card on him, and just palmed the right one, right at the end.


            or...magic is real, and my whole reality has just been shattered.

            Strangely, I have no real idea how the first part of the act was done (flipping bills back and forth). A magician friend once actually showed me how to do that, and I've simply forgotten.


            I'll bet we could find that on Youtube. It's a common manipulation.




            Tim; I really am familiar with many magic tricks, and was a fair amateur magician in my youth. I think I know how it was done, as I posted here. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'd also like to buy the trick, if you have any left, or know where I can get it. PM me, if you like.

            Thanks, Buckaroo.
            Theres your explanation, stacked deck. Essentially an animation both ends of the deck (the same), one end has all the cards in the deck one at a time on each card. The other end has a drawing of a blank on each. just a case of turning the chosen card round the other way and positioning it as the LAST card you flip too. The chosen card. A bit of practice required but not beyond any average person.

            Most of these tricks are a lot simpler than you would imagine to do.

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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              Theres your explanation, stacked deck. Essentially an animation both ends of the deck (the same), one end has all the cards in the deck one at a time on each card. The other end has a drawing of a blank on each. just a case of turning the chosen card round the other way and positioning it as the LAST card you flip too. The chosen card. A bit of practice required but not beyond any average person.

              Most of these tricks are a lot simpler than you would imagine to do.
              I figured out that it was either this method, or having one of every card on your person. Honestly, I thought it was the other explanation. This one is more obvious, when you see it done.

              I love trying to figure out how tricks are done. My magician friend enjoys torturing me about it. Sometimes I can't figure out the simplest of tricks. He tells me that all explanations are a disappointment......but to me, the fascinating thing is how our minds refuse to see the obvious, because we are trained to think a certain way.

              To me, the fascinating thing isn't the trick, it's the audience.
              And I have to know how the trick is done....because I can't stand the idea...of being part of the audience.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I figured out that it was either this method, or having one of every card on your person. Honestly, I thought it was the other explanation. This one is more obvious, when you see it done.

                I love trying to figure out how tricks are done. My magician friend enjoys torturing me about it. Sometimes I can't figure out the simplest of tricks. He tells me that all explanations are a disappointment......but to me, the fascinating thing is how our minds refuse to see the obvious, because we are trained to think a certain way.

                To me, the fascinating thing isn't the trick, it's the audience.
                And I have to know how the trick is done....because I can't stand the idea...of being part of the audience.
                Yes -- exactly -- we are trained to think in certain ways.

                > Magicians know WHAT YOU'RE THINKING (same skill needed for writing sales letters!) -- joining the conversation you're already having in your mind.
                > Magicians know WHERE YOU'RE LOOKING at any given moment.
                > And most importantly, Magicians know WHAT YOU ARE ASSUMING at any given moment. THAT'S the key that most people don't know about!!!

                This is essentially what a magic trick is... Magi and spectator both start out at point A -- clean slate.
                Then Magi guides spectator "down the garden path." Step-by-step he takes advantage of the various *ASSUMPTIONS* to spectator is making along the way.
                Then -- at the end -- the Magician just REVEALS the difference between where REALITY is then, and where the spectator's ASSUMPTIONS led the spectator to believe reality was at the end (two different places!!!) That DIFFERENCE is what produces the apparent "magic." -- the "miraculous" result.

                This is why it is much MORE difficult to "fool" KIDS than adults. Kids don't have those assumptions as much. They haven't lived long enough to ACQUIRE those assumptions!!

                As for your need to not (just) be part of the audience -- that is (ahem) a "pride" and/or "control" issue. It makes you NOT the type of audience a Magi wants. You are focused on figuring it out (it's a challenge or even AFFRONT to you if you can't figure it out). You may be the type who thinks you will be "the loser" in this challenge, if you cannot figure it out.

                How about just going with the flow, and just enjoying it for what it is -- entertainment?!?

                Sometimes it's the fault of the Magician. There are 3 basic types of magic presentations (styles)...

                1) Prop-driven (look at all these cool props I have!)
                2) Magic-driven (I'm gonna FOOL you BADLY (aka: you're gonna be (what we call) FRIED)
                3) Personality-driven (the magic is just a vehicle to entertain -- and the "point" of the performance is the personality of the performer)

                Type 1 is usually terrible cuz it DEPENDS ON the props as a CRUTCH to impress the audience.

                Type 2 usually comes across as a CHALLENGE to the audience -- as in, HA HA I am doing stuff you can't figure out. That is the *adversarial* scenario that you seem to participate in -- not enjoyable!

                Type 3 is the best because it treats the magic as an ENTERTAINMENT vehicle. Don't get me wrong, all magic needs to contain the "MIRACLE, UNEXPLAINABLE" aspect! But in this type 3 magic style, the FOCUS is on the personality of the Magician.

                Go to Vegas and see the Mac King show (in Vegas), and I GUARANTEE all that "I need to figure this out" stuff will go right out the window IMMEDIATELY!

                Mac King is a GENIUS and yes, his magic WILL FRY you for sure -- but he ALSO fully understands the need to make the show PERSONALITY-driven, NOT Magic-driven!!! HE (and his persona) are the POINT of the show, not the magic!!

                The guy in the Britain Talent video did NOT do that. He was making the POINT of that segment be, you can't figure this out. That's a MISTAKE on his part. Maybe he didn't have time to develop his persona in that segment. Or maybe he doesn't know HOW to develop a persona -- or he doesn't see why that needs to be done.

                Cheers.

                -- TW
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                  As for your need to not (just) be part of the audience -- that is (ahem) a "pride" and/or "control" issue. It makes you NOT the type of audience a Magi wants. You are focused on figuring it out (it's a challenge or even AFFRONT to you if you can't figure it out). You may be the type who thinks you will be "the loser" in this challenge, if you cannot figure it out.
                  -- TW

                  You're right about kids. I did a simple effect in a restaurant once (cup floating in the air) for a group of kids. It was impromptu, and I knew their parents. I did the effect. None of them were impressed in the least, but a woman sitting in the booth next to them got genuinely scared. I had to show her the trick, so she wouldn't think I had evil powers.

                  Humans.

                  About not wanting to be part of the audience. It isn't a challenge, or an affront...it's that I feel no connection to the audience.

                  It angers me that I can sometimes be fooled like everyone else. And that I don't see the obvious. That's what bothers me. I never enjoy the trick. There is never the surprise that others feel. If I don't know the resolution, I have to reason it out, or understand it. It's not a matter of pride, but it is a compulsion. It isn't a challenge, I never feel the satisfaction of winning.... but I have to know.

                  Weird.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post



            Tim; I really am familiar with many magic tricks, and was a fair amateur magician in my youth. I think I know how it was done, as I posted here. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'd also like to buy the trick, if you have any left, or know where I can get it. PM me, if you like.

            Thanks, Buckaroo.

            I'm sure it's all over ebay. Cardtoon by Dan Harlan.

            -- TW
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          It appears from that Amazon product above that it's some kind of clever trick deck that can display any card in the a translucent window, something like that. If that's the case then it's nothing special except for a bit of dexterity and showmanship in him selecting it.

          Here is Derren Brown just using conversation to convince Simon Pegg that his dream gift would be a red BMX bike which is what he then produced from his gift box. Just to show it is possible to manipulate people like that. Even Simon Cowell. A joy to behold this... (extra suprise at the end)

          Simon Pegg's Mystery Present - Trick of the Mind - YouTube
          This is what amuses me.

          There's no "transluscent window" in the cards.
          And what you (D. Brown) claims happened in that Darren Brown video you posted, is not what happened at all. No "subtle psychological manipulation" happened at all.
          That's Darren Brown's "schtick." He twists basic magic tricks around so they seem to portray him "subtly influencing people" through psychology.

          To well posted magicians, that is clearly not what has happened in that video (or any other of Darrn Brown's performances).

          In short, you too have "fallen for" his particular version of BS.
          So much so, that you are spouting it here, as truth.

          -- TW
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

            This is what amuses me.

            There's no "transluscent window" in the cards.
            And what you (D. Brown) claims happened in that Darren Brown video you posted, is not what happened at all. No "subtle psychological manipulation" happened at all.
            That's Darren Brown's "schtick." He twists basic magic tricks around so they seem to portray him "subtly influencing people" through psychology.

            To well posted magicians, that is clearly not what has happened in that video (or any other of Darrn Brown's performances).

            In short, you too have "fallen for" his particular version of BS.
            So much so, that you are spouting it here, as truth.

            -- TW
            Er could you read my latest post, No: 17. Case is closed on this as far as I'm concerned.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              Er could you read my latest post, No: 17. Case is closed on this as far as I'm concerned.
              Yes -- after you essentially retracted your (2) ridiculous (yet firmly believed in) original stance(s) -- yes.

              -- TW
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                Yes -- after you essentially retracted your (2) ridiculous (yet firmly believed in) original stance(s) -- yes.

                -- TW
                Speculation only. my dear sir. They were not firmly believed as the way it was done and I did not retract them, just came accross the correct knowledge for this and reported it.. But if you took time to watch Derren Brown you would see that mind manipulation to some, can be as easy as a card force to you.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  Speculation only. my dear sir. They were not firmly believed as the way it was done and I did not retract them, just came accross the correct knowledge for this and reported it.. But if you took time to watch Derren Brown you would see that mind manipulation to some, can be as easy as a card force to you.
                  Nope. No "mental manipulation" in that Darren Brown video at all. Not one speck of it.
                  Again, you are believing his baloney, then reporting it here, as truth.

                  That is Darren Brown's "schtick." He uses the *false* explanation of how he is accomplishing his magic -- and you are simply believing that *false* explanation.

                  -- TW

                  PS: I'm not going to tell you how that DB stunt was accomplished -- but I assure you, "subtle mental manipulation" was NOT part of it at all. His approach is clever in that is STOPS you from trying to figure out how he REALLY did it, because he (apparently) TOLD you how it was done. Then you believe (in your case) that his "explanation" is correct. I'm telling you that explanation is FALSE -- totally false. All you're doing is blindly nodding your head to his bogus explanation.

                  PPS: When I respond to your posts, I need to remember to "encase" your post that I am responding to "in amber" by *quoting* it in my response post. That way your actual, original post is *preserved* for all to see.

                  ;-)
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                    Nope. No "mental manipulation" in that Darren Brown video at all. Not one speck of it.
                    Again, you are believing his baloney, then reporting it here, as truth.

                    That is Darren Brown's "schtick." He uses the *false* explanation of how he is accomplishing his magic -- and you are simply believing that *false* explanation.

                    -- TW

                    PS: I'm not going to tell you how that DB stunt was accomplished -- but I assure you, "subtle mental manipulation" was NOT part of it at all. His approach is clever in that is STOPS you from trying to figure out how he REALLY did it, because he (apparently) TOLD you how it was done. Then you believe (in your case) that his "explanation" is correct. I'm telling you that explanation is FALSE -- totally false. All you're doing is blindly nodding your head to his bogus explanation.

                    PPS: When I respond to your posts, I need to remember to "encase" your post that I am responding to "in amber" by *quoting* it in my response post. That way your actual, original post is *preserved* for all to see.

                    ;-)
                    I disagree. I have seen all of Derren Browns stuff. He does not do magic/conjuring tricks at all. I have seen the full explanation of how he cajoled that actor into thinking he wanted that red bmx bike. Even though he had written down that he wanted a leather jacket. He is a fast talker and plants ideas and associations about things into peoples minds. He probably is adept at fast light hypnosis too. Also distraction is a big factor..

                    They showed him do a complete fail on a hotdog salesman who was not impressionable enough to allow him to pay for a dog with a blank piece of paper. It does not work on everyone but enough to film and get some tv footage out of. He is probably a great observer of peoples body language and inflections on peoples voices and good at making judgement calls about them as well, A good observer. A sort of real life version of The Mentalist coupled with the guy from Liar Liar.

                    If everything was a put up job and people had simply been targeted beforehand and stuff found out about them in ALL cases then it's complete fabrication and I dont think thats the case with him. What would be the point.

                    I delved into conjuring tricks when I was young, put on little shows, and still dabble a bit now and easily fool people now.

                    That card trick. The explanation I found was completely doable and plausible with a little practice. I don't know why you keep going on about it. Perhaps. it's you just being mysterious. It's a minor trick. It's sold in magic stores and on Amazon. You may have another way of doing it and I remind you that this thread was about giving possible explanations, so why don't you give us yours instead of gloating.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      I disagree. I have seen all of Derren Browns stuff. He does not do magic/conjuring tricks at all. I have seen the full explanation of how he cajoled that actor into thinking he wanted that red bmx bike. Even though he had written down that he wanted a leather jacket. He is a fast talker and plants ideas and associations about things into peoples minds. He probably is adept at fast light hypnosis too. Also distraction is a big factor..

                      They showed him do a complete fail on a hotdog salesman who was not impressionable enough to allow him to pay for a dog with a blank piece of paper. It does not work on everyone but enough to film and get some tv footage out of. He is probably a great observer of peoples body language and inflections on peoples voices and good at making judgement calls about them as well, A good observer. A sort of real life version of The Mentalist coupled with the guy from Liar Liar.

                      If everything was a put up job and people had simply been targeted beforehand and stuff found out about them in ALL cases then it's complete fabrication and I dont think thats the case with him. What would be the point.

                      I delved into conjuring tricks when I was young, put on little shows, and still dabble a bit now and easily fool people now.

                      That card trick. The explanation I found was completely doable and plausible with a little practice. I don't know why you keep going on about it. Perhaps. it's you just being mysterious. It's a minor trick. It's sold in magic stores and on Amazon. You may have another way of doing it and I remind you that this thread was about giving possible explanations, so why don't you give us yours instead of gloating.
                      Your theories on how Darren Brown does his stunts are just-plain wrong.
                      All magicians (well posted magicians, not beginners) can see plainly how he is accomplishing his stunts. And they would all tell you, your theories are fanciful, and incorrect.

                      Sorry.

                      I bet, if you tried watching that video again, YOU could figure out what really happened. The FIRST step in SUCCESSFULLY figuring it out, though, is to RID your mind of the (ridiculous, verging on silly) "explanations" you believe in now. Try it, if you can. Or, alternatively, find a well posted magician, and run your theories past him or her. After they finish giggling. they might help you out by explaining the REAL method(s) to you.

                      Another way of looking at this is, if Darren Brown told you he accomplished it using "pixie dust," would you believe him? Of course not!

                      So, why are you believing him when he tells you he's accomplishing it through "subtle psychological influencing?" HIS explanation is only slightly more plausible than "pixie dust." -- when the REAL method is purely physical, down to earth, and nuts and bolts. No clandestine NLP, etc. required!

                      -- TW

                      PS: I believe you said watching how DB uses his super subtle mental influencing is "a joy to behold!"
                      That's the same thing as saying that watching all of Santa's elves make all the toys in the workshop, is "a joy to behold." You are seeing -- and getting a kick out of -- something, that does not exist.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      I disagree. I have seen all of Derren Browns stuff. He does not do magic/conjuring tricks at all. I have seen the full explanation of how he cajoled that actor into thinking he wanted that red bmx bike. Even though he had written down that he wanted a leather jacket. He is a fast talker and plants ideas and associations about things into peoples minds. He probably is adept at fast light hypnosis too. Also distraction is a big factor..

                      They showed him do a complete fail on a hotdog salesman who was not impressionable enough to allow him to pay for a dog with a blank piece of paper. It does not work on everyone but enough to film and get some tv footage out of. He is probably a great observer of peoples body language and inflections on peoples voices and good at making judgement calls about them as well, A good observer. A sort of real life version of The Mentalist coupled with the guy from Liar Liar.

                      If everything was a put up job and people had simply been targeted beforehand and stuff found out about them in ALL cases then it's complete fabrication and I dont think thats the case with him. What would be the point.

                      I delved into conjuring tricks when I was young, put on little shows, and still dabble a bit now and easily fool people now.

                      That card trick. The explanation I found was completely doable and plausible with a little practice. I don't know why you keep going on about it. Perhaps. it's you just being mysterious. It's a minor trick. It's sold in magic stores and on Amazon. You may have another way of doing it and I remind you that this thread was about giving possible explanations, so why don't you give us yours instead of gloating.
                      Just wanted to PRESERVE this post (from Mark), "in amber." ;-)

                      Especially the part that says...

                      "I have seen all of Derren Browns stuff. He does not do magic/conjuring tricks at all."

                      Cheers.

                      -- TW

                      PS: For those of you following this sad saga, it was post # 34.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                        Just wanted to PRESERVE this post (from Mark), "in amber." ;-)

                        Especially the part that says...

                        "I have seen all of Derren Browns stuff. He does not do magic/conjuring tricks at all."

                        Cheers.

                        -- TW

                        PS: For those of you following this sad saga, it was post # 34.
                        As long as it keeps your big EGO intact then feel free.

                        Brown used to do only standard magic tricks. Now his act, on or off stage is a mixture of both straight magic tricks, hypnotism and producing results using psychology, distraction etc. If you look at that Martin Freeman clip you will see what I mean, no conjuring tricks there. He messes with peoples thought processes.

                        My only mistake was to presume that he had given up on the Magic tricks entirely in his on or off stage antics. Not so. I had not really looked at him for a number of years.

                        With that I will bow out of this thread
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          As long as it keeps your big EGO intact then feel free.

                          Brown used to do only standard magic tricks. Now his act, on or off stage is a mixture of both straight magic tricks, hypnotism and producing results using psychology, distraction etc. If you look at that Martin Freeman clip you will see what I mean, no conjuring tricks there. He messes with peoples thought processes.

                          My only mistake was to presume that he had given up on the Magic tricks entirely in his on or off stage antics. Not so. I had not really looked at him for a number of years.

                          With that I will bow out of this thread
                          Every magician uses psychology. It's what sells the trick. It isn't the mechanics of what is going on, it's the story..the set up.

                          Originally he was a hypnotist, and then got into magic. So it's natural that his stage presentation will have elements of his hypnosis show.

                          My hypnotist/psychologist/magician friend doesn't blend his hypnosis show, with his magic show. He thinks it confuses the audience. And the way he starts the show is different. In the magic show, no volunteer selection process takes place.

                          Brown has found a way to mix them, and the appeals of each, quite well, in my opinion.
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                          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            Every magician uses psychology. It's what sells the trick. It isn't the mechanics of what is going on, it's the story..the set up.

                            Originally he was a hypnotist, and then got into magic. So it's natural that his stage presentation will have elements of his hypnosis show.

                            My hypnotist/psychologist/magician friend doesn't blend his hypnosis show, with his magic show. He thinks it confuses the audience. And the way he starts the show is different. In the magic show, no volunteer selection process takes place.

                            Brown has found a way to mix them, and the appeals of each, quite well, in my opinion.
                            I made you say that.
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  • Profile picture of the author alistair
    There's more than one video on youtube showing how the trick is done although I'm not going to post any here. Funny thing is I never seen the trick before and figured it out straight away. I'm lying really, even after watching a couple of the reveal videos I'm still a little stumped on something but no bother.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    These "explanation" posts make me laugh + laugh.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      These "explanation" posts make me laugh + laugh.
      Except thats a perfectly valid explanation of how it can be done. You would only have to put a card on the top that has an animation at only one end. It's not as if the cards are examined.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    After he picks up the cards and starts shuffling through them one-by-one, there are 3 seconds that we do not see the cards (in his hands or on the monitor) that he could have pulled the switch, before the camera focuses back in on the deck.

    Notice he counted about 9 cards. Assuming he only needed 6 or 8, and any extras were just for show, he could have gotten the one he needed and moved it to the bottom of the deck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    I enjoyed this. Watched it earlier. For the bank notes, you can just see them folded in half and tucked away under the leftmost fully presented drawn one. Around 2:29-30. Then he's handing the drawn bills out, and the eyes are on those not whatever else he's doing. Actually, we never see his hands again for the rest of that bit. They cut to the audience and the judges.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    PS: Stop with the "switches" and the "added card(s)" already! -- Completely NOT required for this trick.

    There's a term in the magic world you guys need to be aware of. It is "CLEAN."

    A magician strives to make his tricks (magicians call them effects) as "CLEAN" as possible.
    Clean means there are few (or, ideally NONE) parts of the effect where the viewer can "hang" an explanation. If there's nowhere to "hang" any explanation, then the viewer must conclude it was (ahem) "magic." -- Of course we all know it's NOT real magic, and it of course MUST have been accomplished by actual mechanical, explainable, real-world means.

    But that's just it. It's the magician's job to -- as much as possible -- ELIMINATE any possibility for an explanation of what has happened.

    In that respect, the magician in the video could have done a better job of SEALING OFF the possibility for people like you guys to come up with all your fanciful (and totally INACCURATE) explanations. In other words, he could/should have presented it in a more "clean" way.

    The guy in the video could've made it more clear + obvious that ANY card could be named (thus "sealing off" the possibility of viewers actually believing CRAZY ideas like "subtle psychological influence" (hahahahaha) -- and maybe he should have made it more clear + obvious that he was not adding or removing ANY CARDS during the entire thing, thus "sealing off" the possibility of THAT being a possible explanation.

    By the way, in the magic world, if you can come up with EXTREMELY clean routines, then you can potentially fool other magicians!

    Magicians have the ability to THINK in a very particular way. The more you do it, the more you increase your ability to think in that way. That's why it's VERY difficult to fool well posted magicians (as in the Penn + Teller show with that premise).

    You guys are not magicians, so you are not used to thinking in that way at all.
    That's why you see the same video I see, yet you come up with what I know are RIDICULOUS explanations.

    Has nothing to do with better or worse mind -- just DIFFERENT way of thinking.
    Using your "normal" ways of thinking is NOT gonna work when the challenge is figuring out how a trick is done. You are entering a fight TOTALLY UNARMED. You're only gonna succeed in embarrassing yourselves.

    -- TW

    PPS: If you want to see some lessons in creating "clean" magic routines, see this person...
    Richard Osterlind

    His routines are SO clean, they often fool magicians. They are simple, direct, and (seemingly) have NO POSSIBLE explanation cuz there's "CLEARLY" no place AT ALL to even BEGIN to "hang" an explanation on!!! Some of his routines appear to be JUST PLAIN MAGIC. I know -- I have been BADLY FOOLED by some of his stuff -- and I am known for not getting fooled very easily at all -- cuz I've been in the biz for so long.

    Conversely, I have had the pleasure of fooling other magicians -- many of whom were big names, and "should" have known better. While fooling other magicians is not a goal, really -- it is a very delicious feeling when it happens! One of my inventions (a rope routine) is SPECIFICALLY designed to fool other magicians.
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  • Profile picture of the author AdWordsUzmani
    He just have to change the last card. The other ones doesn't matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I think I'll keep watching Amanda Holden.




    TW,

    I think you should explain instead of being haughty.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    I hate these shows.
    Leave it to Claude to get me watching one!
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      I watched about an hour of Darren Brown this morning (while working.)

      Not 100% sure how he does his illusions, but....

      It isn't by reading the subtle signals the people are giving off. Far too risky.

      My first thought is that some of the people in the audience filled out cards, giving information...and he targeted those people in the audience, already having full knowledge of their answers. They wouldn't be stooges. They would probably not even remember that they gave that information before the show. Maybe a few people were in line, listening for conversations that they could use.

      That would be the safest way, and would prevent an audience member from making the connection.

      Ministers that do faith healing often do that. Or they use information off of mailing lists.

      I'm 99% sure that he had the answers and the targeted audience members in mind, before the show.

      But I know that these were not randomly selected members of the audience. That's why he asked the selection questions first. A great showman though, very entertaining.


      Timothy, am I right? You can PM me if you like.

      PS, A confederate backstage, feeding information into an earpiece would make this much easier, especially locating the specific people in an audience that large.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I watched about an hour of Darren Brown this morning (while working.)

        Not 100% sure how he does his illusions, but....

        It isn't by reading the subtle signals the people are giving off. Far too risky.

        My first thought is that some of the people in the audience filled out cards, giving information...and he targeted those people in the audience, already having full knowledge of their answers. They wouldn't be stooges. They would probably not even remember that they gave that information before the show. Maybe a few people were in line, listening for conversations that they could use.

        That would be the safest way, and would prevent an audience member from making the connection.

        Ministers that do faith healing often do that. Or they use information off of mailing lists.

        I'm 99% sure that he had the answers and the targeted audience members in mind, before the show.

        But I know that these were not randomly selected members of the audience. That's why he asked the selection questions first. A great showman though, very entertaining.


        Timothy, am I right? You can PM me if you like.

        PS, A confederate backstage, feeding information into an earpiece would make this much easier, especially locating the specific people in an audience that large.
        Heres a google search on Derren Brown asking the question. The consensus from various sources goes in line with conclusions I have reached. Read the first entry in particular. I'm always prepared to be shot down of course but no, no stooges or pixie dust, just light hypnotism, suggestion, verbal and physical cue's to get the results. He's just good at it. You should watch the American shows he did, out on the streets. Like the buying of jewelry from a store with blank paper. Nothing to do with stooges, more to do with mental manipulation and light hypnotism.

        https://www.google.com/#q=does+derre...l+manipulation
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Heres a google search on Derren Brown asking the question. The consensus from various sources goes in line with conclusions I have reached. Read the first entry in particular. I'm always prepared to be shot down of course but no, no stooges or pixie dust, just light hypnotism, suggestion, verbal and physical cue's to get the results. He's just good at it. You should watch the American shows he did, out on the streets. Like the buying of jewelry from a store with blank paper. Nothing to do with stooges, more to do with mental manipulation and light hypnotism.

          https://www.google.com/#q=does+derre...l+manipulation

          You are looking at the wrong "consensus." This is what gets James Randi so upset. When some new "psychic" steps forward, and he is "tested" by a bunch of egghead "experts" on ESP, they always forget to include well posted MAGICIANS on the judging panel. If you want to analyze something that could involve magician's methods, you MUST include people who know what they're talking about! In cases like this, people like you (and the panel on this "talent" show in the OPs video, AND many of the people in your "consensus"), DON'T KNOW WHAT THE *HELL* THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! They (and, unfortunately you) are operating from a COLOSSAL CAVERN OF IGNORANCE.

          Add to that the fact that they do not know what they do not know, and you got some heavily INACCURATE conclusions! (ie: concluding something is real, WHEN IT IS NOT!)

          Now, let's look at DB -- he is NOT claiming to be psychic. I see that. BUT... he *IS* claiming to have a special skill. That is the skill you are fawning over + saying is "a joy to behold."

          I'm telling you that skill is NOT being displayed at all. I'm telling you his claims of "clever" mental manipulation, etc. are BOGUS.

          How do I know this? Cuz I can see how he REALLY IS accomplishing these stunts, that's how.

          Now for some details...

          I never mentioned anything about stooges. Not needed in the case of the video you showed. That person in the video was genuinely just as fooled as you were. But the question is, fooled about WHAT?

          The main thing you and he were fooled about was HOW the outcome was accomplished! (read that sentence 3x please -- it is essential to understand before proceeding)

          The REAL answer is, absolutely no "mind manipulation," etc. was needed OR DONE. The video you showed is a straight on CONJURING TRICK (which you claim DB does NOT do), period. It's not just a conjuring trick, it's a conjuring trick that's on page THREE of any mentalism book out there. It's a BASIC conjuring trick at that!

          Again, if you look at that video THINKING LIKE A MAGICIAN, it is quite obvious what is being done. The aspect you are falling for hook line and sinker (clever mental manipulation, etc.), is FALSE! FALSE, I say!

          Here's a handy hint... Look at the HARD EVIDENCE offered to "prove" DB's claim of HOW this outcome was accomplished (shown at the end).

          1) Write down on a piece of paper what DB claims has happened (his supposed method for bringing about this "amazing" outcome.

          2) Write down on a piece of paper what that guest star THINKS happened, from HIS point of view, IF DB had not filled his head with BS. See, what the guest star THINKS happened *IS* what happened. -- Remember he is NOT a stooge. THAT is reality. That is the part of the scenario that CANNOT BE BENT!

          Now that we know that. The spectator's reality *IS* reality, ALL OTHR INCOMING INFO must be WARPED and BENT to FIT THAT REALITY.

          That's NOT what you are doing when you are "analyzing" the video. What you are doing is quite different (and actually kinda dangerous, really) -- You are taking DB's EXPLANATION of what is happeneing as the UNBENDABLE reality, then taking all OTHER evidence, and bending THAT to fit your assumed (but really FALSE) "reality!"

          Here's why your method of "analyzing" what you are seeing in that video is *dangerous*...
          The video shows 2 different people's account of what happened. The video is basically asking, which version do you believe? One person's account must be true, and (therefore) the other person's account must be false. DB is telling the spectator, "what you think happened, didn't really happen at all."
          You see this video, and take what the "real" person is saying, and JUDGE that to be INCORRECT, while taking what the "newcomer" (DB) is CLAIMING, and giving THAT your "reality" stamp of approval. And you are doing it WILLINGLY, almost GLEEFULLY, on VERY FLIMSY ACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE.
          In other worlds, I WOULD NOT WANNA HAVE SOMEONE LIKE YOU ON A COURTROOM JURY!! -- THAT would be dangerous!

          *** Basically you are taking reality, and BENDING THAT to fit a suspect premise that you WANT to believe in. Your thinking SHOULD BE done the other way around! You need to take what *IS* rock-solid reality, THEN bend ALL ELSE, until it fits the UNBENDABLE reality. ***

          WHY are you doing it the wrong way 'round?
          Because you are being FOOLED, that's why (aka: falling for bullcrap). And you DO NOT have the means (knowledge) to SEE how you are being fooled.

          3) Now that you have written down what the spectator THINKS happened, FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW --- MINUS the bullcrap that was laid upon him (NOT talking "mind manipulation" etc. here -- I'm talking about the bullcrap EXPLANATION of HOW this was accomplished) -- WHERE IS THE HARD EVIDENCE that DBs version of how this was accomplished? In other words, where is the hard evidence that the spectator's version FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW is ***NOT*** true?

          4) Now take the "hard evidence" that DB presents as "proof" of his CLAIM of "super subtle mind manipulation" method (it's really pretty flimsy -- I hope you can now see that) -- and see how you can BEND THAT to fit the REALITY of what the spectator's story is. Any magician will see that this is EASILY accomplished!

          Let me put it as plainly as I can -- here is THE KEY...
          What "evidence" do you have that DB "replaced" the spectator's original
          wish?" THAT's the "evidence" you need to focus on -- that's the ONLY REAL "evidence" DB has,
          to back up his CLAIM of "clever, super subtle mind manipulation!"

          Please understand, I'm TRYING to show you how YOU can figure this out on your own, WITHOUT me just-plain exposing the entire method in public (which I am "sworn" not to do).

          He's NOT a stooge. It happened EXACTLY as HE THINKS IT DID. DBs version is BOGUS, as is his "evidence." Period.

          Hope that helps.

          -- TW

          PS: Here's another way I can expand your mind about these matters -- do a google search for these terms... mentalism and "pre-show work" Believe me, you are judging what Derren Brown is telling you -- but your judgement is skewed, because in these matters, you don't know what the *hell* you're talking about. Just like those judges on that talent show in the OP's post. They are reaching conclusions + judgments, coming from a COLOSSAL CAVERN OF IGNORANCE. Unfortunately, it results in attributing "talents" where there ARE NONE!!!!
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

            You are looking at the wrong "consensus." This is what gets James Randi so upset. When some new "psychic" steps forward, and he is "tested" by a bunch of egghead "experts" on ESP, they always forget to include well posted MAGICIANS on the judging panel. If you want to analyze something that could involve magician's methods, you MUST include people who know what they're talking about! In cases like this, people like you (and the panel on this "talent" show in the OPs video, AND many of the people in your "consensus"), DON'T KNOW WHAT THE *HELL* THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! They (and, unfortunately you) are operating from a COLOSSAL CAVERN OF IGNORANCE.

            Add to that the fact that they do not know what they do not know, and you got some heavily INACCURATE conclusions! (ie: concluding something is real, WHEN IT IS NOT!)

            Now, let's look at DB -- he is NOT claiming to be psychic. I see that. BUT... he *IS* claiming to have a special skill. That is the skill you are fawning over + saying is "a joy to behold."

            I'm telling you that skill is NOT being displayed at all. I'm telling you his claims of "clever" mental manipulation, etc. are BOGUS.

            How do I know this? Cuz I can see how he REALLY IS accomplishing these stunts, that's how.

            Now for some details...

            I never mentioned anything about stooges. Not needed in the case of the video you showed. That person in the video was genuinely just as fooled as you were. But the question is, fooled about WHAT?

            The main thing you and he were fooled about was HOW the outcome was accomplished! (read that sentence 3x please -- it is essential to understand before proceeding)

            The REAL answer is, absolutely no "mind manipulation," etc. was needed OR DONE. The video you showed is a straight on CONJURING TRICK (which you claim DB does NOT do), period. It's not just a conjuring trick, it's a conjuring trick that's on page THREE of any mentalism book out there. It's a BASIC conjuring trick at that!

            Again, if you look at that video THINKING LIKE A MAGICIAN, it is quite obvious what is being done. The aspect you are falling for hook line and sinker (clever mental manipulation, etc.), is FALSE! FALSE, I say!

            Here's a handy hint... Look at the HARD EVIDENCE offered to "prove" DB's claim of HOW this outcome was accomplished (shown at the end).

            1) Write down on a piece of paper what DB claims has happened (his supposed method for bringing about this "amazing" outcome.

            2) Write down on a piece of paper what that guest star THINKS happened, from HIS point of view, IF DB had not filled his head with BS. See, what the guest star THINKS happened *IS* what happened. -- Remember he is NOT a stooge. THAT is reality. That is the part of the scenario that CANNOT BE BENT!

            Now that we know that. The spectator's reality *IS* reality, ALL OTHR INCOMING INFO must be WARPED and BENT to FIT THAT REALITY.

            That's NOT what you are doing when you are "analyzing" the video. What you are doing is quite different (and actually kinda dangerous, really) -- You are taking DB's EXPLANATION of what is happeneing as the UNBENDABLE reality, then taking all OTHER evidence, and bending THAT to fit your assumed (but really FALSE) "reality!"

            Here's why your method of "analyzing" what you are seeing in that video is *dangerous*...
            The video shows 2 different people's account of what happened. The video is basically asking, which version do you believe? One person's account must be true, and (therefore) the other person's account must be false. DB is telling the spectator, "what you think happened, didn't really happen at all."
            You see this video, and take what the "real" person is saying, and JUDGE that to be INCORRECT, while taking what the "newcomer" (DB) is CLAIMING, and giving THAT your "reality" stamp of approval. And you are doing it WILLINGLY, almost GLEEFULLY, on VERY FLIMSY ACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE.
            In other worlds, I WOULD NOT WANNA HAVE SOMEONE LIKE YOU ON A COURTROOM JURY!! -- THAT would be dangerous!

            *** Basically you are taking reality, and BENDING THAT to fit a suspect premise that you WANT to believe in. Your thinking SHOULD BE done the other way around! You need to take what *IS* rock-solid reality, THEN bend ALL ELSE, until it fits the UNBENDABLE reality. ***

            WHY are you doing it the wrong way 'round?
            Because you are being FOOLED, that's why (aka: falling for bullcrap). And you DO NOT have the means (knowledge) to SEE how you are being fooled.

            3) Now that you have written down what the spectator THINKS happened, FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW --- MINUS the bullcrap that was laid upon him (NOT talking "mind manipulation" etc. here -- I'm talking about the bullcrap EXPLANATION of HOW this was accomplished) -- WHERE IS THE HARD EVIDENCE that DBs version of how this was accomplished? In other words, where is the hard evidence that the spectator's version FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW is ***NOT*** true?

            4) Now take the "hard evidence" that DB presents as "proof" of his CLAIM of "super subtle mind manipulation" method (it's really pretty flimsy -- I hope you can now see that) -- and see how you can BEND THAT to fit the REALITY of what the spectator's story is. Any magician will see that this is EASILY accomplished!

            Let me put it as plainly as I can -- here is THE KEY...
            What "evidence" do you have that DB "replaced" the spectator's original
            wish?" THAT's the "evidence" you need to focus on -- that's the ONLY REAL "evidence" DB has,
            to back up his CLAIM of "clever, super subtle mind manipulation!"

            Please understand, I'm TRYING to show you how YOU can figure this out on your own, WITHOUT me just-plain exposing the entire method in public (which I am "sworn" not to do).

            He's NOT a stooge. It happened EXACTLY as HE THINKS IT DID. DBs version is BOGUS, as is his "evidence." Period.

            Hope that helps.

            -- TW
            Ok, since you think you are sworn to secrecy please just view the video below and make comments.

            Brown comes to the US and successfully pays a fishmonger with blank pieces of paper. Then he fails to dupe a hotdog sales man with said paper. Then he goes to a jewelry store and buys a $4500.00 piece of jewelry with blank paper, and exits quickly. The owner realises shortly after and rushes out but he has gone.

            Questions:

            Is the whole thing staged with actors. IE. Not real?

            Is he showing real money and switching to paper at the last minute. (does not look like it, he hands over paper fair and square, no sign of cash flash?)

            No, of course he does not have any mental powers, no such thing. What he does possibly have though is a good grasp of psychology and distraction. If you ever listen to a hypnotist for real or on a recording, it is the sound of his voice, it's inflections etc, what they say It's tone, it's command etc. I'm not saying it's hypnotism here for a second but using aspects of the process..

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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              Ok, since you think you are sworn to secrecy please just view the video below and make comments.

              Brown comes to the US and successfully pays a fishmonger with blank pieces of paper. Then he fails to dupe a hotdog sales man with said paper. Then he goes to a jewelry store and buys a $4500.00 piece of jewelry with blank paper, and exits quickly. The owner realises shortly after and rushes out but he has gone.

              Questions:

              Is the whole thing staged with actors. IE. Not real?

              Is he showing real money and switching to paper at the last minute. (does not look like it, he hands over paper fair and square, no sign of cash flash?)

              No, of course he does not have any mental powers, no such thing. What he does possibly have though is a good grasp of psychology and distraction. If you ever listen to a hypnotist for real or on a recording, it is the sound of his voice, it's inflections etc, what they say It's tone, it's command etc. I'm not saying it's hypnotism here for a second but using aspects of the process..

              Derren Tricks Shop Keepers To Let Him Pay With Paper - Trick or Treat - YouTube
              How about this -- why don't YOU go back to the other video you posted (bmx bike), and do the WORK (deconstructing) I have recommended -- re: THAT video, and let's see how far YOU get in PUBLICLY ***RENOUNCING*** your eagerly held beliefs about THAT video, FIRST?

              Let that be your first step in a "12-step" program of RECOVERY.

              THEN we'll talk about further steps.

              -- TW

              PS: Re: that fishmonger video -- are you saying that DB is the ONLY person in the world whose "mental manipulation skills" are superior enough to accomplish that stunt? Why don't you see other, equally qualified people doing the same stunts? Either he is the only truly superior enough practitioner of this "ability," or this "ability" doesn't exist, and cannot be demonstrated by other people, using LEGITIMATE means (the means he is CLAIMING to use). THINK! Look up what MAGICIANS say about him (he has some very PRESTIGIOUS *magician* awards -- they do NOT give those out to people who are just plain good at "super subtle mental manipulation"). Then you come out here and claim DB does NOT do "conjuring tricks." Yes -- that is EXACTLY what he does. Pure and simple. Look up some of his own quotes about what he does! He words them very cleverly -- but he does say (in his own convoluted way) that he USES SIMPLE conjuring methods. Ask Magicians -- the answer is CLEAR.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                How about this -- why don't YOU go back to the other video you posted (bmx bike), and do the WORK (deconstructing) I have recommended -- re: THAT video, and let's see how far YOU get in PUBLICLY ***RENOUNCING*** your eagerly held beliefs about THAT video, FIRST?

                Let that be your first step in a "12-step" program of RECOVERY.

                THEN we'll talk about further steps.

                -- TW
                It is just my TAKE and OPINION of what is going on (and others as well). Thats all. In this case it was not done in a controlled studio environment which unless the whole thing was a staged act, would be difficult to do. I asked that you could do a breakdown of what went on in the jewelry store. Explain how he duped the man. You have not offered anything or any evidence to support anything on this thread so far except to tell us it's on page 3 of your magic manual that you cannot reveal unto the masses. Stalemate!

                The other day Claude put me right my musings on what you would find at the edge of the universe, apparently you cant get there. You cant go outside of it and look back, you are always in it. I'm sure if I asked he would point me to the astrophysicists who can explain why this is so.

                It does not appear I will get that from you on this. The burden of proof and explanation is on you oh mighty wizard.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  It is just my TAKE and OPINION of what is going on (and others as well). Thats all. In this case it was not done in a controlled studio environment which unless the whole thing was a staged act, would be difficult to do. I asked that you could do a breakdown of what went on in the jewelry store. Explain how he duped the man. You have not offered anything or any evidence to support anything on this thread so far except to tell us it's on page 3 of your magic manual that you cannot reveal unto the masses. Stalemate!

                  The other day Claude put me right my musings on what you would find at the edge of the universe, apparently you cant get there. You cant go outside of it and look back, you are always in it. I'm sure if I asked he would point me to the astrophysicists who can explain why this is so.

                  It does not appear I will get that from you on this. The burden of proof and explanation is on you oh mighty wizard.
                  Again, your "take + opinion" on what is going on, is emanating from a colossal cavern of ignorance -- you need to acknowledge that. You're not.

                  Do you WANT to see the reality of this -- or not?
                  I have taken the time to give you all the "keys" to see the reality.
                  All you have to do is pick up the keys, put them in the lock... AND TURN.

                  So you're saying you're NOT gonna do this, after all?...
                  (if not, why not)

                  How about this -- why don't YOU go back to the other video you posted (bmx bike), and do the WORK (deconstructing) I have recommended -- re: THAT video, and let's see how far YOU get in PUBLICLY ***RENOUNCING*** your eagerly held beliefs about THAT video, FIRST?

                  Let that be your first step in a "12-step" program of RECOVERY.

                  THEN we'll talk about further steps.

                  -- TW

                  PS: For instance, did you do a google search for "mentalism" and "pre-show work" yet?
                  Again, you need to be consulting magicians to get accurate info on this topic!
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Heres a google search on Derren Brown asking the question. The consensus from various sources goes in line with conclusions I have reached. Read the first entry in particular. I'm always prepared to be shot down of course but no, no stooges or pixie dust, just light hypnotism, suggestion, verbal and physical cue's to get the results. He's just good at it. You should watch the American shows he did, out on the streets. Like the buying of jewelry from a store with blank paper. Nothing to do with stooges, more to do with mental manipulation and light hypnotism.

          https://www.google.com/#q=does+derre...l+manipulation
          Mark and Timothy.; The video I was watching is this one. The first 15 minutes of "readings" is what I was talking about. Sorry for not pointing out the act I was discussing.
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          • Profile picture of the author perryny
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Mark and Timothy.; The video I was watching is this one. The first 15 minutes of "readings" is what I was talking about. Sorry for not pointing out the act I was discussing.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiGfZQU4im4
            Claude, I think I've completely figured out how he guesses the word "FILM" that the completely random, not a stooge audience member chose at random.

            Should I post my theory here, or is this getting too much in the way of giving away the secrets? (I'm no magician btw).

            Or does no one really care anymore at this point?
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            • Profile picture of the author perryny
              For the longest time, I couldn't find a single "Dangerman" Jonathan Goodwin stunt online, but now apparently many are available...



              If you haven't seen his stuff, you should check him out. How he does his stunts I have not figured out. I think he really does them. Maybe.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by perryny View Post

              Claude, I think I've completely figured out how he guesses the word "FILM" that the completely random, not a stooge audience member chose at random.

              Should I post my theory here, or is this getting too much in the way of giving away the secrets? (I'm no magician btw).

              Or does no one really care anymore at this point?
              I'd love to hear it. We are really only talking (each of us) to an audience of 2 or three.
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              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                Do you have a theory of how he did it (the "FILM" trick?)
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                  Do you have a theory of how he did it (the "FILM" trick?)
                  No. I watched it again, and my idea didn't make sense.
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                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                    "Random person in the audience, please think of a completely random 4 or so letter word.

                    Now, a gentleman is going to come to you with a piece of paper (on a clipboard.)

                    Please write your word on that paper nice and big, because we're going to show it to the audience later (so, make sure to write big and legibly and press hard so that everyone in the audience will be able to clearly see what you wrote.)

                    Now, assistant with the clipboard, no peeking!... Give the audience member an envelope to seal his secret word in, and take back the clipboard with the semi-soft surface on it that captured the impression of the big, four letter word he just wrote.

                    Tell me the word in my earpiece and go backstage and take the copy of the form we have prepared (an exact copy of the one taped to my back) and fill in the blanks with the audience member's word. When you're done, take that form and attach it to the back of the easel-board we have on the side of the stage.

                    Now, second audience volunteer, come up here and open that envelope attached to my back and watch over my shoulder as I read the page inside.

                    Just as I get to the bottom of side 1, I will SAY (not read), that the secret word is "FILM" as I quickly walk over to the easel, write the word in big letters with my right hand as I use my left hand to switch the form we were just reading with the one taped to the back of the easel that's filled in with our secret word.

                    Now, I return to volunteer #2, and we flip the page to side b, and volunteer #2 reads the secret word, which volunteer #1 confirms we've guessed correctly!"

                    That's it, right?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                      "Random person in the audience, please think of a completely random 4 or so letter word.

                      Now, a gentleman is going to come to you with a piece of paper (on a clipboard.)

                      Please write your word on that paper nice and big, because we're going to show it to the audience later (so, make sure to write big and legibly and press hard so that everyone in the audience will be able to clearly see what you wrote.)

                      Now, assistant with the clipboard, no peeking!... Give the audience member an envelope to seal his secret word in, and take back the clipboard with the semi-soft surface on it that captured the impression of the big, four letter word he just wrote.

                      Tell me the word in my earpiece and go backstage and take the copy of the form we have prepared (an exact copy of the one taped to my back) and fill in the blanks with the audience member's word. When you're done, take that form and attach it to the back of the easel-board we have on the side of the stage.

                      Now, second audience volunteer, come up here and open that envelope attached to my back and watch over my shoulder as I read the page inside.

                      Just as I get to the bottom of side 1, I will SAY (not read), that the secret word is "FILM" as I quickly walk over to the easel, write the word in big letters with my right hand as I use my left hand to switch the form we were just reading with the one taped to the back of the easel that's filled in with our secret word.

                      Now, I return to volunteer #2, and we flip the page to side b, and volunteer #2 reads the secret word, which volunteer #1 confirms we've guessed correctly!"

                      That's it, right?
                      Impressive. I missed the hand off behind the easel. My guess is that you are absolutely right.

                      When he was told to write big, I thought it would be easier to read by a confederate, either from carbon paper, or just the impression on the next paper. The same with the phone number.

                      But yeah, the handoff was pretty obvious, after the fact. I forgot that the word "Film" was read by the second guy on stage.

                      Pretty insightful, and Kudos to you and Mark.

                      Of course, we could all be wrong, but I don't think so.

                      And to be clear, your idea was much more developed than mine. I missed the entire "switch behind the easel, and read the word "Film".......
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                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                  Do you have a theory of how he did it (the "FILM" trick?)
                  The FILM trick could go like this (as could the telephone number one) In both cases I suspect the people wrote it on a pad and ripped the paper off, underneath was a piece of carbon paper or ncr that recorded what was written. This was radioed to Browns earpiece. He then used his standard tomfoolery to get that on a piece of paper in an envelope.

                  The Airplane drawing was probably recorded and transmitted in a similar way. Since he had the subject under hypnosis and had him feeling something in an empty box, it would not be too much trouble (especially as he was facing him some of the time) to suggest that it was an aeroplane.

                  Straight conjuring tricks coupled with stage hypnotism (aka manipulating a human beings mind) Something he does in combination.
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                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    The FILM trick could go like this (as could the telephone number one) In both cases I suspect the people wrote it on a pad and ripped the paper off, underneath was a piece of carbon paper or ncr that recorded what was written. This was radioed to Browns earpiece. He then used his standard tomfoolery to get that on a piece of paper in an envelope.

                    The Airplane drawing was probably recorded and transmitted in a similar way. Since he had the subject under hypnosis and had him feeling something in an empty box, it would not be too much trouble (especially as he was facing him some of the time) to suggest that it was an aeroplane.

                    Straight conjuring tricks coupled with stage hypnotism (aka manipulating a human beings mind) Something he does in combination.
                    You beat me to it. I didn't see the airplane trick yet, but I'm already doubting there was any hypnotism involved.
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                      You beat me to it. I didn't see the airplane trick yet, but I'm already doubting there was any hypnotism involved.
                      There definitely was hypnotism for that but it made it easy to prompt the subject to describe a plane as Brown already knew it via the other methods.

                      I don't see how he got the dogs name however. Perhaps one of the audience was researched beforehand via
                      her booking info. A pet food rep could have called her up (or one of her family) about a free pet food trial and happened to ask her dogs names.
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                      • Profile picture of the author perryny
                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                        There definitely was hypnotism for that but it made it easy to prompt the subject to describe a plane as Brown already knew it via the other methods.
                        I watched the airplane trick.

                        I don't believe there was ANY hypnotism involved.

                        First, I know nothing about hypnotism, what's possible, if it's real or not. How he gets Adam to drop his head and slump over completely, I don't know. Also, I don't know what, if anything went on while Adam was in the glass box. Was he fed instruction through a speaker in the pillow? Was he being hypnotized, if that's possible? No idea.

                        But looking at the tricks themselves...

                        Adam feels a teaspoon in a box we can't see into, DB moves behind the box and the spoon is now a ladle.

                        Adam feels a mitten, DB moves across the box, it becomes a tarantula.

                        Adam gets his guts removed on the operating table- they show how this is done in the Jim Carey movie about Andy Kaufman.

                        No hypnotism / mentalism required for any of this.

                        And then the plane trick...

                        Adam's mum draws and writes Aeroplane on a piece of paper. We know how, and how quickly, DB gets that information.

                        Now, it's a LONG time until Adam puts his hand in the "empty" box. Long enough for him to get operated on.

                        Long enough for what else, I wonder?

                        Then Adam sits up, puts his hand down into the box and feels a plastic, toy airplane (notice that at no time does anyone put their hand "through" the box - only down through the hole in the top.)

                        I believe at this point, Adam is actually feeling a real, toy plane.

                        We can't see the plane, and Adam seems really confused because it looks like the box is empty (he only takes a quick glance once) and is perplexed about how this is happening.

                        He, and we are perplexed because we can't see how the plane is hidden from us.

                        I don't know how DB is hiding the plane - but I've seen lots and lots of magic performances where things - or people - seem to be in a box and then somehow disappear.

                        Same thing here. Maybe it's mirrors, maybe it's not Adam's hand we're seeing (maybe it's a video image of a hand entering the box), maybe it's a clear, plastic plane we can't see with the all black or all white background (depending on camera angle.) I don't know.

                        But I do believe Adam is feeling a plastic plane in an "empty" box they had plenty of time to prepare (not unlike putting a BMX bike in a giant gift box.)

                        And aside from the head drop, I see no evidence in any part of this performance that requires or can't be done without any form of hypnotism.

                        They're all straight conjuring tricks we've all seen many times before.

                        So if this is the case - and in all the DB stunts we've seen so far in this thread at least, none required any mentalism to be performed - but in all of them he wants us to believe he's using mentalism - then I think this is excellent evidence that he doesn't use any mentalism to perform his tricks.

                        He's not using mentalism, hypnotism or NLP in his act. It's just his shtick.
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                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                          Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                          I watched the airplane trick.

                          I don't believe there was ANY hypnotism involved.

                          First, I know nothing about hypnotism, what's possible, if it's real or not. How he gets Adam to drop his head and slump over completely, I don't know. Also, I don't know what, if anything went on while Adam was in the glass box. Was he fed instruction through a speaker in the pillow? Was he being hypnotized, if that's possible? No idea.

                          But looking at the tricks themselves...

                          Adam feels a teaspoon in a box we can't see into, DB moves behind the box and the spoon is now a ladle.

                          Adam feels a mitten, DB moves across the box, it becomes a tarantula.

                          Adam gets his guts removed on the operating table- they show how this is done in the Jim Carey movie about Andy Kaufman.

                          No hypnotism / mentalism required for any of this.

                          And then the plane trick...

                          Adam's mum draws and writes Aeroplane on a piece of paper. We know how, and how quickly, DB gets that information.

                          Now, it's a LONG time until Adam puts his hand in the "empty" box. Long enough for him to get operated on.

                          Long enough for what else, I wonder?

                          Then Adam sits up, puts his hand down into the box and feels a plastic, toy airplane (notice that at no time does anyone put their hand "through" the box - only down through the hole in the top.)

                          I believe at this point, Adam is actually feeling a real, toy plane.

                          We can't see the plane, and Adam seems really confused because it looks like the box is empty (he only takes a quick glance once) and is perplexed about how this is happening.

                          He, and we are perplexed because we can't see how the plane is hidden from us.

                          I don't know how DB is hiding the plane - but I've seen lots and lots of magic performances where things - or people - seem to be in a box and then somehow disappear.

                          Same thing here. Maybe it's mirrors, maybe it's not Adam's hand we're seeing (maybe it's a video image of a hand entering the box), maybe it's a clear, plastic plane we can't see with the all black or all white background (depending on camera angle.) I don't know.

                          But I do believe Adam is feeling a plastic plane in an "empty" box they had plenty of time to prepare (not unlike putting a BMX bike in a giant gift box.)

                          And aside from the head drop, I see no evidence in any part of this performance that requires or can't be done without any form of hypnotism.

                          They're all straight conjuring tricks we've all seen many times before.

                          So if this is the case - and in all the DB stunts we've seen so far in this thread at least, none required any mentalism to be performed - but in all of them he wants us to believe he's using mentalism - then I think this is excellent evidence that he doesn't use any mentalism to perform his tricks.

                          He's not using mentalism, hypnotism or NLP in his act. It's just his shtick.
                          I disagree, having seen stage hypnotism close up, this guy was hypnotized. In this case it was actually easier to do this than scrabble around trying to find a small version of the object the woman drew which was totally free will. But you did provide something I had not thought of. That is that they had an intermission and there could have a speaker in the glass case where Brown told the guy (still hypnotized) that he would later feel a plane in the box.

                          I suppose you will say that no, the intermission was used to go out and buy or get a toy plane and then place it in the box full of mirrors. I feel that In this case, the fact that Brown hypnotized him was in fact the easiest route to achieve the result.

                          Moving on the the mediumship, yawn, not impressed with that at all. There was no way Brown could have known the names and circumstances of those 2 peoples relatives, (bitten by a monkey in Gibraltar?) notice he only did 2. Those 2 were singled prior to the show and research done on them.
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                          • Profile picture of the author perryny
                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                            I suppose you will say that no, the intermission was used to go out and buy or get a toy plane and then place it in the box full of mirrors. I feel that In this case, the fact that Brown hypnotized him was in fact the easiest route to achieve the result.
                            The reason I say they went out and got a toy plane is:

                            1. We've seen DB do this before. A guy secretly writes BMX Bike on a piece of paper and seals it in and envelope. DB gets this information almost immediately. He then distracts the guy while he tells him stories and taps him on the shoulder. Then he produces a BMX Bike in a box. Same exact trick.

                            2. DB has proven (to me at least) that he does not use NLP or other mind control techniques in his other tricks where he wants me to believe he is. If he's lying about his mind control powers with his other tricks, why on earth would I believe he can make some guy actually feel a plastic toy airplane, sharp corners and all, when there is nothing there but air?

                            Dude, let's think about this one for a second.

                            He can't make a guy see $4500 when it's only actually white paper.

                            He can't make a guy think of a word and then actually guess the word.

                            But he can make a guy feel a solid, clearly identifiable object - the same exact identifiable object that's written on the secret piece of paper - sharp corners, plastic cylindrical body, WINGS! - when there's nothing there but AIR?

                            Put your hand down at your side for a second. Now feel your fingers and the air between and around your fingers. Now imagine someone has the ability to whisper in your ear and make you actually believe you're feeling an effing plastic toy airplane.

                            That's some skill.

                            3. I've got more, but no point 3 needed. I think that last point was good enough. If you still believe DB can hypnotize people into feeling imaginary objects, it's cause you want to believe it.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                              Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                              We've seen DB do this before. A guy secretly writes BMX Bike on a piece of paper and seals it in and envelope. DB gets this information almost immediately. He then distracts the guy while he tells him stories and taps him on the shoulder. Then he produces a BMX Bike in a box. Same exact trick.


                              I don't know if this has been mentioned, however Brown accomplished that trick (and others) by using "conversational hypnosis." He made the guy say "BMX bike" by planting that suggestion in his mind.
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                              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                I don't know if this has been mentioned, however Brown accomplished that trick (and others) by using "conversational hypnosis." He made the guy say "BMX bike" by planting that suggestion in his mind.
                                It's been discussed, and you're wrong.

                                http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...l#post10076801
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                                • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                  It's been discussed, and you're wrong.

                                  Lol. Actually, I'm right.

                                  There used to be a video of the "BMX Trick" on YouTube that explains how he did it (using "Conversational Hypnosis") however it's been removed.


                                  Here's the trick without the explanation:



                                  I'll let you into a little "secret" to as to how he began the hypnosis:


                                  (It's called "The Handshake Interrupt.")

                                  This is where when shaking hands, the Hypnotist runs his middle finger along the person's palm. This interrupts their usual pattern of shaking hands and puts them in a state of "suggestibility."
                                  If you watch the video above, you will see him perform this manoeuvre which includes putting Simon's hand on the table as part of the interrupt.


                                  This isn't my opinion, by the way. This is how he accomplishes many of his tricks.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                    Lol. Actually, I'm right.
                                    Lol. You wish you were right. I wish you were right too.

                                    But you're not.

                                    It's a trick and has been discussed earlier in this thread, which you haven't read.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      Lol. You wish you were right. I wish you were right too.

                                      But you're not.



                                      Well OK. You keep that little belief.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                    Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                    Lol. Actually, I'm right.

                                    There used to be a video of the "BMX Trick" on YouTube that explains how he did it (using "Conversational Hypnosis") however it's been removed.


                                    Here's the trick without the explanation:

                                    Simon Pegg's Mystery Present - Trick of the Mind - YouTube


                                    I'll let you into a little "secret" to as to how he began the hypnosis:


                                    (It's called "The Handshake Interrupt.")

                                    This is where when shaking hands, the Hypnotist runs his middle finger along the person's palm. This interrupts their usual pattern of shaking hands and puts them in a state of "suggestibility."
                                    If you watch the video above, you will see him perform this manoeuvre which includes putting Simon's hand on the table as part of the interrupt.


                                    This isn't my opinion, by the way. This is how he accomplishes many of his tricks.
                                    Take a moment. Take a deep breath. Now... take a fresh look at what you have written (above).
                                    Do you REALLY wanna be "the guy" who actually believes what you wrote?

                                    Seriously, LOOK at what you have written as if it were FACT.

                                    "This is how he accomplishes many of his tricks."

                                    Seriously... dude.

                                    Again, doubting what should be believed, and believing what should be doubted.
                                    A scary way of assessing one's surroundings. Scary in its ramifications when extrapolated.

                                    -- TW
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                            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                              Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                              The reason I say they went out and got a toy plane is:

                              1. We've seen DB do this before. A guy secretly writes BMX Bike on a piece of paper and seals it in and envelope. DB gets this information almost immediately. He then distracts the guy while he tells him stories and taps him on the shoulder. Then he produces a BMX Bike in a box. Same exact trick.

                              2. DB has proven (to me at least) that he does not use NLP or other mind control techniques in his other tricks where he wants me to believe he is. If he's lying about his mind control powers with his other tricks, why on earth would I believe he can make some guy actually feel a plastic toy airplane, sharp corners and all, when there is nothing there but air?

                              Dude, let's think about this one for a second.

                              He can't make a guy see $4500 when it's only actually white paper.

                              He can't make a guy think of a word and then actually guess the word.

                              But he can make a guy feel a solid, clearly identifiable object - the same exact identifiable object that's written on the secret piece of paper - sharp corners, plastic cylindrical body, WINGS! - when there's nothing there but AIR?

                              That's some skill.

                              3. I've got more, but no point 3 needed. I think that last point was good enough. If you still believe DB can hypnotize people into feeling imaginary objects, it's cause you want to believe it.
                              Sir, I think you underestimate the what the power of suggestion can do under hypnosis. Here's just one of many things I saw live. The hypnotist has his subjects onstage and pushes a child buggy around. Except, to them he is invisible so the subjects are freaking out because they think it is moving around on it's own!

                              If you can do stuff like that, getting a guy to feel an imaginary toy plane in a box is child's play.

                              None of this is a question of belief on my part, I don't entertain that word. It IS what you can get people to do and behave like under hypnosis on stage. Perhaps you should view a few hypnotist acts on you-tube. Paul Mckenna is one such you could look at.
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                              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                Sir, I think you underestimate the what the power of suggestion can do under hypnosis.
                                I think you're being tricked and you don't want to accept it.

                                Coming into this I was already highly skeptical about hypnosis and what's possible.

                                Now that I see what the "trick" is - that Derren Brown is fooling massive numbers of people into thinking - and hard core DEFENDING - that he has mind control powers - I'm way, way more skeptical.

                                I'll gladly watch any hypnotism act and would love to be convinced that it can be done.

                                But your refusal to accept the truth and your apparent need to believe, even when presented with what I believe is pretty clear-cut evidence, makes me have to agree with our buddy TW - watch out for guys with clipboards asking you to round up your neighborhood evildoers.
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                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                  I think you're being tricked and you don't want to accept it.

                                  Coming into this I was already highly skeptical about hypnosis and what's possible.

                                  Now that I see what the "trick" is - that Derren Brown is fooling massive numbers of people into thinking - and hard core DEFENDING - that he has mind control powers - I'm way, way more skeptical.

                                  I'll gladly watch any hypnotism act and would love to be convinced that it can be done.

                                  But your refusal to accept the truth and your apparent need to believe, even when presented with what I believe is pretty clear-cut evidence, makes me have to agree with our buddy TW - watch out for guys with clipboards asking you to round up your neighborhood evildoers.
                                  There you go again, judging what I "believe" which I dont use, there is only either truth or un-truth. Brown has neither psychic or mind control POWERS. What he does have is the practiced ability to quickly put a WILLING PARTICIPANT under hypnosis and in that state he can suggest whatever he likes to them and they will think they can perceive what he is suggesting they see. Totally different scenario.

                                  Please watch a few Hypnotist stage acts online before commenting.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                    There you go again, judging what I "believe" which I dont use, there is only either truth or un-truth. Brown has neither psychic or mind control POWERS. What he does have is the practiced ability to quickly put a WILLING PARTICIPANT under hypnosis and in that state he can suggest whatever he likes to them and they will think they can perceive what he is suggesting they see. Totally different scenario.

                                    Please watch a few Hypnotist stage acts online before commenting.
                                    Can you please think about what you're saying here for a moment?

                                    You're saying that a guy has the ability to take a bunch of people up on a stage in front of an audience, speak some commands in a certain way, and MAKE HIMSELF EFFING INVISIBLE to them?

                                    Dude, I've been wishing for this super power since I was 9 years old. If this is possible, I'm learning it today, heading to 47th st. next week and robbing every effing jewelry store blind.

                                    Then I'm heading for the girl's locker room...*

                                    Fella's, please... in the words of the Amazing Jonathan..., "It's a TRICK! It's a F*#%ING ILLUSION! I'm fooling you AND YOU DON"T LIKE IT!"


                                    *Just a reference to every young boy's fantasy. Not a current desire of mine...
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                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                Sir, I think you underestimate the what the power of suggestion can do under hypnosis. Here's just one of many things I saw live. The hypnotist has his subjects onstage and pushes a child buggy around. Except, to them he is invisible so the subjects are freaking out because they think it is moving around on it's own!

                                If you can do stuff like that, getting a guy to feel an imaginary toy plane in a box is child's play.

                                None of this is a question of belief on my part, I don't entertain that word. It IS what you can get people to do and behave like under hypnosis on stage. Perhaps you should view a few hypnotist acts on you-tube. Paul Mckenna is one such you could look at.
                                The reason this is different, is that hypnosis is unreliable. Not everyone is hypnotisable, and it works to different degrees on different people.

                                So, if one person is picked randomly, hypnosis isn't the real answer. I have a good friend that is a stage hypnotist and a psychologist. His stage show is really impressive. But there is quite a lot of work that goes into selecting the candidates. And as the show goes on, many of the subjects wake up (not really the right way to say it).

                                Hypnosis is real. But if the performer has a single subject, it's unreliable. Far smarter to just use illusion.

                                Personally, I haven't seen the trick you guys are talking about. But by the way it's described, if there is any illusion involved, the performer isn't relying on hypnosis but is using props.

                                Could someone pop a link so I could see the performance?
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                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                  The reason this is different, is that hypnosis is unreliable. Not everyone is hypnotisable, and it works to different degrees on different people.

                                  So, if one person is picked randomly, hypnosis isn't the real answer. I have a good friend that is a stage hypnotist and a psychologist. His stage show is really impressive. But there is quite a lot of work that goes into selecting the candidates. And as the show goes on, many of the subjects wake up (not really the right way to say it).

                                  Hypnosis is real. But if the performer has a single subject, it's unreliable. Far smarter to just use illusion.

                                  Personally, I haven't seen the trick you guys are talking about. But by the way it's described, if there is any illusion involved, the performer isn't relying on hypnosis but is using props.

                                  Could someone pop a link so I could see the performance?
                                  One of thing I noted in the stage hypnotism acts I have seen is how quickly the hypnotist can select and ascertain the susceptibility of a suitable subject to hypnosis, they send a lot of people back to there seats when selecting the final bunch. He had a cert there. Thing is, the having some sort of mirrored thing going in the box, and dashing out to get a toy plane, could be done but a very convoluted way if your confident of hypnotizing someone.

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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    Ok...

                                    You're saying that it's possible for a person to learn and possess a skill where they can:
                                    • Make people feel things when there's really nothing there.
                                    • Make people see or not see things, like a human being becoming totally invisible while the baby carriage they're pushing remains totally visible.
                                    • Make people look at a blank piece of paper and think they're counting money.
                                    • Make a person who just wrote the words "Leather Jacket" on a piece of paper 5 minutes ago actually believe they wrote "BMX Bike".

                                    Mark, if these were skills that could actually be taught and learned, think about the possible applications OUTSIDE of performing them for an audience.

                                    Wouldn't this instantly become a bigger niche than picking up girls?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      Mark, if these were skills that could actually be taught and learned, think about the possible applications OUTSIDE of performing them for an audience.

                                      Wouldn't this instantly become a bigger niche than picking up girls?

                                      Personally I have no use for all these "techniques." And, I wouldn't want to learn them. I prefer more "authentic/sincere" communication.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                        Personally I have no use for all these "techniques." And, I wouldn't want to learn them. I prefer more "authentic/sincere" communication.
                                        You wouldn't want to learn how to make yourself completely invisible to everyone in the room?

                                        Seriously, if there was an e-book, or even a course for $19.95 that could teach you to do this, you'd pass?
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                          Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                          You wouldn't want to learn how to make yourself completely invisible to everyone in the room?

                                          Seriously, if there was an e-book, or even a course for $19.95 that could teach you to do this, you'd pass?


                                          Lol. In a word: No - I wouldn't want to learn that.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      Ok...

                                      You're saying that it's possible for a person to learn and possess a skill where they can:
                                      • Make people feel things when there's really nothing there.
                                      • Make people see or not see things, like a human being becoming totally invisible while the baby carriage they're pushing remains totally visible.
                                      • Make people look at a blank piece of paper and think they're counting money.
                                      • Make a person who just wrote the words "Leather Jacket" on a piece of paper 5 minutes ago actually believe they wrote "BMX Bike".

                                      Mark, if these were skills that could actually be taught and learned, think about the possible applications OUTSIDE of performing them for an audience.

                                      Wouldn't this instantly become a bigger niche than picking up girls?
                                      "Make people feel things when there's really nothing there.
                                      Make people see or not see things, like a human being becoming totally invisible while the baby carriage they're pushing remains totally visible."

                                      Willing participants under hypnosis on stage, sure you can, Iv'e seen it being done.. Ask them to jump off a bridge. Nope.

                                      The other things you talked about, the jury is still out.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                    One of thing I noted in the stage hypnotism acts I have seen is how quickly the hypnotist can select and ascertain the susceptibility of a suitable subject to hypnosis, they send a lot of people back to there seats when selecting the final bunch. He had a cert there. Thing is, the having some sort of mirrored thing going in the box, and dashing out to get a toy plane, could be done but a very convoluted way if your confident of hypnotizing someone.

                                    Derren Brown Infamous 2014 - YouTube
                                    Speaking only about the "airplane" act. It looked like a normal hypnosis act, The audience was tested, the best candidate picked out. The only part that was trickery, was how the kid thought of "airplane".

                                    To me, it's obvious. The shroud may have been slightly soundproof. Offstage, during the break, Darren told the kid that he would feel an airplane....probably through a microphone in the shroud. Perry already explained how Darren learned about what the mother drew.

                                    The hand was the kid's. He really thought he was feeling an airplane.

                                    The Simon Pegg act? Sure, lots of NLP actions were taking place. But in this instance, that was the trick. Too much was missing in the video; What happened before...what happened after...

                                    I'm not a hypnotist, but I have a good idea how it works, and have seen many real hypnosis acts, with my friend...the stage hypnotist-psychologist. The kid was hypnotised. I don't think Simon Pegg was.

                                    I could be wrong.


                                    Added later; To Ian; Strange. I just posted much of what you posted earlier. I missed that post, until Timothy quoted it. Sorry, if it looks like I just repeated what you said.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      I'm not a hypnotist, but I have a good idea how it works, and have seen many real hypnosis acts, with my friend...the stage hypnotist-psychologist. The kid was hypnotised. I don't think Simon Pegg was.


                                      He wasn't "hypnotized" per se. "Conversational Hypnosis" is just what many people call it.


                                      From Wikipedia:
                                      Covert hypnosis refers to an attempt to communicate with another person's unconscious mind without that person noticing. As it often takes place in the course of a seemingly regular conversation, it is also known as conversational hypnosis or sleight of mouth.[1] The objective is to change the person's behavior subconsciously so that the target believes that they changed their mind of their own volition. When performed successfully, the target is unaware that they have been hypnotized or that anything unusual has occurred.
                                      Covert hypnosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                        He wasn't "hypnotized" per se. "Conversational Hypnosis" is just what many people call it.


                                        From Wikipedia:
                                        Pegg would have had to really want a leather jacket, wrote "Leather Jacket", then completely forgot that he wrote it...and then decided that he always wanted a BMX bike...and that he remembered writing BMX bike on the paper.

                                        And just based on the video, I didn't see that happening. In other words, not enough information was given, to guarantee the answer "BMX bike".

                                        But again, I didn't see what happened before the video or after.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          But again, I didn't see what happened before the video or after.

                                          I doubt anything happened before or after. However you could be right.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          Pegg would have had to really want a leather jacket, wrote "Leather Jacket", then completely forgot that he wrote it...and then decided that he always wanted a BMX bike...and that he remembered writing BMX bike on the paper.

                                          And just based on the video, I didn't see that happening. In other words, not enough information was given, to guarantee the answer "BMX bike".

                                          But again, I didn't see what happened before the video or after.
                                          Has anyone bothered to take my suggestion and do a search of "mentalism" and "pre-show work" yet? I promise it will be most enlightening.

                                          As for "covert hypnotism" and claiming DBs stunts contain that (they don't), PLEASE show us some videos of other people doing it (with such dramatic results) -- surely there must be DOZENS of them! Post a few here.

                                          Note: Not gonna happen, cuz no such videos exist -- cuz they CAN'T exist! Cuz DB isn't using those methods EITHER! (to achieve his results).

                                          -- TW
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                    OK, 37 minutes in.....you see him place his hand in the box, I've watched it several times, in slow motion, and am convinced that it's his hand. Is it possible that he is touching a small plane, that we can't see? Maybe. But then, how can we see the lady's legs (sorry, arms) through the opening of the box? A black plane would distort that image.

                                    Was it a very small plane (like an inch across)? Possibly. But if we can clearly see his hand, why not a sign of the plane? In other words, Mirrors in the box would work, but you would either not see his hand, or see both the hand and the plane.

                                    Unless....the girls sitting behind them had their arms in exactly the right spot, and they placed the box in exactly the right spot. So it looked like we could see through the box, when we really couldn't. And it really was his hand, and the plane was just dark.

                                    I'm looking again.
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                            I disagree, having seen stage hypnotism close up, this guy was hypnotized. In this case it was actually easier to do this than scrabble around trying to find a small version of the object the woman drew which was totally free will. But you did provide something I had not thought of. That is that they had an intermission and there could have a speaker in the glass case where Brown told the guy (still hypnotized) that he would later feel a plane in the box.

                            I suppose you will say that no, the intermission was used to go out and buy or get a toy plane and then place it in the box full of mirrors. I feel that In this case, the fact that Brown hypnotized him was in fact the easiest route to achieve the result.

                            Moving on the the mediumship, yawn, not impressed with that at all. There was no way Brown could have known the names and circumstances of those 2 peoples relatives, (bitten by a monkey in Gibraltar?) notice he only did 2. Those 2 were singled prior to the show and research done on them.
                            You simply must research the difference between hypnotism and STAGE hypnotism. Run that video past a REAL, legitimate hypnotist (one who uses hypnotism for actual therapy), and I'm pretty sure you'll get an ear full! Real hypnotism bears almost no relation to STAGE hypnotism.

                            Also, you say: "There was no way Brown could have known..." Again, you are making statements, and you're coming from a colossal cavern of ignorance. You are making a dangerous leap. If one were to draw a mind map of how you are thinking about this, there's a critical thinking flaw in your chart. Any viewer of that stunt would appropriately say to themselves, "That AMAZING - it seems like there's NO WAY he could have known that! (then the next thought would be)... I have NO idea how that is done -- must be pretty CLEVER -- I can't figure it out!"

                            But that not how you're thinking. YOUR thinking goes more like this...
                            "That AMAZING - it seems like there's NO WAY he could have known that! (then YOUR next thoughts are)... There *IS* no way he could've known that -- therefore DBs (FANCIFUL, FANTASTICAL) explanation of how it is accomplished MUST be true!!!"

                            Again, you are tending to believe what you should doubt, and doubt what you should believe. It's not pretty to watch a grown person do that. It's even less pretty to watch a grown person do that -- then fiercely DEFEND it in public, too!
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                            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                              Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                              You simply must research the difference between hypnotism and STAGE hypnotism. Run that video past a REAL, legitimate hypnotist (one who uses hypnotism for actual therapy), and I'm pretty sure you'll get an ear full! Real hypnotism bears almost no relation to STAGE hypnotism.

                              Also, you say: "There was no way Brown could have known..." Again, you are making statements, and you're coming from a colossal cavern of ignorance. You are making a dangerous leap. If one were to draw a mind map of how you are thinking about this, there's a critical thinking flaw in your chart. Any viewer of that stunt would appropriately say to themselves, "That AMAZING - it seems like there's NO WAY he could have known that! (then the next thought would be)... I have NO idea how that is done -- must be pretty CLEVER -- I can't figure it out!"

                              But that not how you're thinking. YOUR thinking goes more like this...
                              "That AMAZING - it seems like there's NO WAY he could have known that! (then YOUR next thoughts are)... There *IS* no way he could've known that -- therefore DBs (FANCIFUL, FANTASTICAL) explanation of how it is accomplished MUST be true!!!"

                              Again, you are tending to believe what you should doubt, and doubt what you should believe. It's not pretty to watch a grown person do that. It's even less pretty to watch a grown person do that -- then fiercely DEFEND it in public, too!
                              More of your cryptic kerfuffle

                              Brown had NO way of knowing that the deceased woman was bitten by a Monkey in Gibraltar. or the mothers name. Unless, the information was obtained beforehand. There was not enough time or interaction for him to get that out of her in his conversations.. That was just standard fayre Charlatan Mediumship.

                              I saw a very accomplished stage illusionist and mainly hypnotist back in the eighties. Sorry, he was not a young guy, probably passed on by now. Even knew him which was why I was invited up on stage. His stage name was Magus.

                              The hypnosis side contained no magic acts, it was just putting some people under and making them do silly things, like if a key word were spoken, they would all involuntarily jump up and wave there arms around, sing a song and then sit back down again and wonder why they did it.

                              His show was just a try out as he was going on the cruise ships. In selecting his subjects a load of people went up and all but the desired amount were sent back to the audience after he had spoken to them all briefly.

                              Now, lets suppose he had somehow met the people he ended up with beforehand (which was not the case in my opinion) and pre hypnotized and conditioned them, so what. they were still under.

                              If he had just paid them off to do his bidding beforehand then the whole thing was a sham anyway. Not something you could probably keep up 100 percent of the time, especially on cruise ships.

                              So, your saying it's always a sham with paid actors and stooges 100 percent of the time. I doubt it.
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                              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                Riddle me this, guys...

                                Why use the box?

                                Every element of the airplane trick, we all agree could be done with traditional magic tricks. No hypnosis required.

                                Only Adam feeling a toy plane in the box is where we disagree.

                                I say it's a trick box and there's really a plane in there that Adam's feeling.

                                You say he's been hypnotized into thinking he's feeling a plane, when in reality, the box is completely empty.

                                So... why use the box? If DB can really do this, then why use a box, or anything we traditionally see in magic acts that are used as props for tricks?

                                Why not just tell Adam, "I want you to keep looking at me... but directly to your right, on the mattress next to you is an object. I want you to feel it and describe to me what it feels like."



                                PS. Ianfear63, is your name Ian, or Mark? And if it's Ian, who's Mark?
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                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                  Riddle me this, guys...

                                  Why use the box?

                                  Every element of the airplane trick, we all agree could be done with traditional magic tricks. No hypnosis required.

                                  Only Adam feeling a toy plane in the box is where we disagree.

                                  I say it's a trick box and there's really a plane in there that Adam's feeling.

                                  You say he's been hypnotized into thinking he's feeling a plane, when in reality, the box is completely empty.

                                  So... why use the box? If DB can really do this, then why use a box, or anything we traditionally see in magic acts that are used as props for tricks?

                                  Why not just tell Adam, "I want you to keep looking at me... but directly to your right, on the mattress next to you is an object. I want you to feel it and describe to me what it feels like."



                                  PS. Ianfear63, is your name Ian, or Mark? And if it's Ian, who's Mark?
                                  Names Mark really, Lan is just an OT stage name. :-) (Notice its a small L which looks exactly like a capital I (i) ) on the forums font.

                                  The box was used for other tricks like the furry poisonous spider. and the spoon. In the case of the spider, of course he never felt it, too dangerous, I suspect he put in a little slot in shelf with something furry on it, above it. Of course it was not visible to us. He may or may of not done the same thing with the spoon and put a teaspoon on it. The box of course negated the subject actually seeing anything as well.

                                  So, the box, aside from the last bit where he's feeling nothing (or what Brown suggested to him to) was possibly a straight trick, less chances of anything going wrong that way.

                                  Despite Timothy's (not very useful) interjections and a difference of opinion on the credibility of stage hypnotism and to what degree it was used, I think we have done really well at figuring out how a lot of this stuff was done. Congrats to us. (but not Kurt)

                                  I think Timothy is just a spy from the Magic Circle, sent here to throw us off the scent and try and preserve his secret code. Shane, take note!
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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                    I think we have done really well at figuring out how a lot of this stuff was done. Congrats to us. (but not Kurt)
                                    Yeah, thanks for nothing, Kurt.

                                    (I actually would have expected way more participation in this thread. Yeah, the tricks are cool and it's fun to try and figure out how it's done... but I think the psychological aspect of how smart people can be led to believe something fantastical, and will then defend that belief even when it can be proven untrue, I think is fascinating.)

                                    As to us figuring out how a lot of this stuff was done... do you realize what you're doing, Mark?

                                    True, trick by trick, we figured out how DB did many of his stunts. Everything we figured out, we showed how it can be (and IS) done through conventional magic trickery. We agree that, even though DB is APPEARING to do NLP or mind reading or whatever, for the tricks we figured out, we know he's just pretending about the mind control stuff.

                                    But, for the few final aspects of the tricks we haven't figured out - primarily, how he gets a BMX Bike OR a Toy Airplane into a box once he KNOWS that's what the subject wrote down - you are sticking with "for THAT part, he's actually using with hypnotism."

                                    Come on, man! Why you want to make me rant like TW?

                                    He uses the box for the plane because he used it earlier in the act? For THAT part of the trick, it WAS a trick box to hide the spoon and the spider, but for the Airplane... it's REALLY is an empty box this time, because it LOOKS empty?

                                    Someone, help me out here...
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      Yeah, thanks for nothing, Kurt.

                                      (I actually would have expected way more participation in this thread. Yeah, the tricks are cool and it's fun to try and figure out how it's done... but I think the psychological aspect of how smart people can be led to believe something fantastical, and will then defend that belief even when it can be proven untrue, I think is fascinating.)

                                      As to us figuring out how a lot of this stuff was done... do you realize what you're doing, Mark?

                                      True, trick by trick, we figured out how DB did many of his stunts. Everything we figured out, we showed how it can be (and IS) done through conventional magic trickery. We agree that, even though DB is PRETENDING to do NLP or mind reading or whatever, for the tricks we figured out, we know he's just pretending about the mind control stuff.

                                      But, for the few final aspects of the tricks we haven't figured out - primarily, how he gets a BMX Bike OR a Toy Airplane into a box once he KNOWS that's what the subject wrote down - you are sticking with "for THAT part, he's actually using with hypnotism."

                                      Come on, man! Why you want to make me rant like TW?

                                      He uses the box for the plane because he used it earlier in the act? For THAT part of the trick, it WAS a trick box to hide the spoon and the spider, but for the Airplane... it's REALLY is an empty box this time, because it LOOKS empty.

                                      Someone, help me out here...
                                      I considered that as well. The box wasn't necessary at all, for any part of the show. And certainly hiding the ladle and spider from our view wasn't necessary. I think the kid felt a spoon, and maybe a glove. The pocket could have been attached to the front cover of the box.

                                      But the toy airplane? We are watching his hand in the box. I looked at it several times, and I think it's really the kids hand.

                                      Assuming the kid wasn't a plant, he was really hypnotized. But you don't want to chance that one kid, coming out of it....so you make him feel what he's telling us. Far more reliable. And his reaction to each reveal...was the reaction of a hypnotized person...not really aware of the difference. No big surprised look on his face.

                                      So......was the kid feeling a toy plane....or was he hypnotized? Brown knew what the mother wrote and drew....we all figured out how.

                                      So the question is, how did the kid know to say "plane"?

                                      Was it;
                                      1) The kid was hypnotized, and told that it was a plane. And it was really his hand?
                                      2) There was a toy plane in the box, but it wasn't his hand? (The hand we saw grasped nothing, no movement)

                                      These are the only two options I can think of.

                                      But the kid's hand was barely in the box, it wasn't deep in the box, feeling around.

                                      The only think that makes me think it might be an illusion (the hand in the box)...is that the box is used at all.
                                      Yeah, he wasn't touching the spider, any grip at all, and the spider would be mush.

                                      And he did do everything a good stage hypnotist does. And I've seen him do a pure stage hypnosis act. So he does know how to do it.

                                      I would think it was really hypnosis at the end...but I could easily be convinced otherwise.

                                      Ready? I really don't know.

                                      Dammit! I'm going to look again.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                        Please, forget for now about trying to figure out how he did it.

                                        Just explain...

                                        If DB can hypnotize a subject into thinking he's feeling something that isn't there...

                                        Why use a box at all?

                                        Let's say you're the hypnotist. You're putting on a big show to demonstrate this amazing skill.

                                        Why oh why would you use anything that anyone could possibly claim could be used as a prop if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

                                        Wouldn't the stunt be 100 times more amazing if everyone in the audience, including professional magicians would have to say, "There are only 2 possible explanations...

                                        1. The kid was hypnotized.
                                        2. Somehow, the kid was a stooge."

                                        If you have the ability to hypnotize, you go to great lengths to eliminate the second possibility and everyone is left with only ONE possible conclusion - you have an amazing and truly unique skill that no one can replicate.

                                        Put the box there, and you're giving everyone a third, very likely possibility - one the magicians in the audience will most certainly believe... the box is a trick box.

                                        If you COULD hypnotize the subject, why weaken the stunt with a completely unnecessary prop?

                                        The only explanation I see... the prop IS necessary.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      Yeah, thanks for nothing, Kurt.

                                      (I actually would have expected way more participation in this thread. Yeah, the tricks are cool and it's fun to try and figure out how it's done... but I think the psychological aspect of how smart people can be led to believe something fantastical, and will then defend that belief even when it can be proven untrue, I think is fascinating.)

                                      As to us figuring out how a lot of this stuff was done... do you realize what you're doing, Mark?

                                      True, trick by trick, we figured out how DB did many of his stunts. Everything we figured out, we showed how it can be (and IS) done through conventional magic trickery. We agree that, even though DB is APPEARING to do NLP or mind reading or whatever, for the tricks we figured out, we know he's just pretending about the mind control stuff.

                                      But, for the few final aspects of the tricks we haven't figured out - primarily, how he gets a BMX Bike OR a Toy Airplane into a box once he KNOWS that's what the subject wrote down - you are sticking with "for THAT part, he's actually using with hypnotism."

                                      Come on, man! Why you want to make me rant like TW?

                                      He uses the box for the plane because he used it earlier in the act? For THAT part of the trick, it WAS a trick box to hide the spoon and the spider, but for the Airplane... it's REALLY is an empty box this time, because it LOOKS empty.

                                      Someone, help me out here...
                                      Look at the aspects of what else went on, on the face of it. He gets a guy (punter) out of the audience and hypnotizes him so he's open to suggestion. That guy proceeds to lie comfortably with his eyes shut on a bed in a glass case while an intermission goes on in front of a large audience.. He also shows no discomfort or interest while Brown pretends to do an operation on him, putting fake blood over his stomach and prodding it. I dont know if he saw the spider or spoon but no reaction to them. No reaction to the fact that a bunch of people had appeared behind him while he had his eyes shut.

                                      He was either a complete stooge or accomplice, or just a member of the audience who got hypnotized. If not, he was a very, very cool guy to be brought on stage and go through all that taking it all in his stride like he did.

                                      Having seen stage hypnosis up close and personal. Willing participants can be made to do all sorts of crazy things. They have no inhibitions about it either. This guy, showed those characteristics of someone who was hypnotized, provided if we are to take this bit as face value, that he was a just an audience guy who allowed himself to be hypnotized. The glass case was the perfect cover to whisper further suggestions to him regarding him via a mike to make him feel and choose the plane.

                                      In my humble opinion, I maintain that Brown uses all methods available to achieve his effects and they sometimes go beyond straight conjuring tricks. I will also point out again that Brown has done and probably still does, straight hypnotist shows that involve no conjuring tricks at all.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                        I totally see how TW can get so amped up about this.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                          Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                          I totally see how TW can get so amped up about this.
                                          The only way to get through it is to breathe deeply and realize there are people who believe in chem trails too.

                                          By the way. .. to the DB believer... stop putting words into my mouth. I never said stooges were needed. Just because YOU can't figure out how it could be done with conjuring tricks, does not mean it WASN'T done with conjuring tricks. You keep not understanding that you're operating from a colossal cavern of ignorance in THIS area. Can't you just accept that?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                            The only way to get through it is to breathe deeply and realize there are people who believe in chem trails too.

                                            By the way. .. to the DB believer... stop putting words into my mouth. I never said stooges were needed. Just because YOU can't figure out how it could be done with conjuring tricks, does not mean it WASN'T done with conjuring tricks. You keep not understanding that you're operating from a colossal cavern of ignorance in THIS area. Can't you just accept that?
                                            Just a couple of straight answers from you please.

                                            Have you ever seen a live stage hypnotist do his thing? (no conjuring tricks)

                                            Did you think it was all fake, a put up job?
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                        I think I have it.

                                        The hand is real. It's the kid's hand. You can see through the box. But what you see is (depending on the angle) the back of the table, and two arms of the audience behind. Two different people. Both with red leather coats, and a dark spot between them. I think the shape of the plane was in the dark spot. toward the top, behind his hand.

                                        It would give the illusion that the box was empty, because the reference points behind the box (The two leather jacket arms and the table top) indicated that the box was empty. But it wasn't. The small plane was just in a dark spot. And at no time did either of the people behind the box, move at all. I think he felt something like a small plane, and the rest was suggestion.

                                        Just put the box in the right spot, have the two girls sit in the right spot...and Viola!

                                        Really, I think that's it. Anyone?
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                                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          I think I have it.

                                          The hand is real. It's the kid's hand. You can see through the box. But what you see is (depending on the angle) the back of the table, and two arms of the audience behind. Two different people. Both with red leather coats, and a dark spot between them. I think the shape of the plane was in the dark spot. toward the top, behind his hand.

                                          It would give the illusion that the box was empty, because the reference points behind the box (The two leather jacket arms and the table top) indicated that the box was empty. But it wasn't. The small plane was just in a dark spot. And at no time did either of the people behind the box, move at all. I think he felt something like a small plane, and the rest was suggestion.

                                          Just put the box in the right spot, have the two girls sit in the right spot...and Viola!

                                          Really, I think that's it. Anyone?
                                          You could be right. The box always being a trick box gives a hundred percent certainty of the trick succeeding. The hypnosis may not always work 100 percent for stuff like this so Brown has to be certain of the result. In a Stage Hypnosis show the parameters and desired results are not nearly so rigid.

                                          The thing is.I don't know anything about the success rate of hypnotism and suggestion in situations like this?

                                          The fact that Brown is adept at Stage Hypnotism amongst things, other than straight conjuring tricks, still leads me to entertain that he can take things a little further than straight tricks.

                                          You must admit that other aspects (other than the trick itself) AKA: the hypnotism provided an added dimension to the the performance. The guy was hypnotised/mesmerised (whatever you want to call it) and susceptible to suggestion. I'm sure Brown could have had him hopping around the stage on one leg making chicken noises if he wanted too.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                            Brown does some suggestion stuff with Martin Freeman (Dr Watson and the Hobbit)

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                                            • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                              Brown does some suggestion stuff with Martin Freeman (Dr Watson and the Hobbit)

                                              Derren Brown Removes Martin Freeman's Strength - Trick or Treat - YouTube
                                              I think in this case it's pretty obvious that DB is using an actor for this stunt.

                                              Cheating.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                                I think in this case it's pretty obvious that DB is using an actor for this stunt.

                                                Cheating.
                                                Now thats funny :-)
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                                              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                                Aw jeez...

                                                I just spent two whole stupid days obsessing over this silly thread, and now I find this...

                                                Head Hacking

                                                Damnit! I've got work to do!
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                                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                  Ok Timothy. You should easily be able to answer these questions to get into the Headhacking websites Magic supplies store.

                                                  Head Hacking
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                                    I've got the answer to number 1 (I own the book), but numbers 2 and 3 aren't easy to find by googling.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                                      I've got the answer to number 1 (I own the book), but numbers 2 and 3 aren't easy to find by googling.
                                                      2 should be the easiest, 3 a close second to easy.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    Ok Timothy. You should easily be able to answer these questions to get into the Headhacking websites Magic supplies store.

                                                    Head Hacking
                                                    I'm in.

                                                    Why?

                                                    Did you doubt me?

                                                    -- TW

                                                    PS: I couldn't answer the book question -- I do own the book (it's a classic), but it's in storage.

                                                    PPS: Sorry -- but I feel COMPELLED to add: In the same way you are not qualified to get access to that site (cuz you don't know the answers, on THAT topic), you are ALSO not qualified to determine the modus operandi of the DB stunts (cuz you don't know the answers on THAT topic)!!
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                      I'm in.

                                                      Why?

                                                      Did you doubt me?

                                                      -- TW

                                                      PS: I couldn't answer the book question -- I do own the book (it's a classic), but it's in storage.

                                                      PPS: Sorry -- but I feel COMPELLED to add: In the same way you are not qualified to get access to that site (cuz you don't know the answers, on THAT topic), you are ALSO not qualified to determine the modus operandi of the DB stunts (cuz you don't know the answers on THAT topic)!!

                                                      Reality is Plastic.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                                                        Reality is Plastic.
                                                        That's the answer to the 13 steps question? Doesn't ring a bell.
                                                        The main subject of the 7th step is book tests. I don't know what the supplement is about. The question seems to imply the supplement is about a WHO, not a WHAT.

                                                        I do see that's the name of one of the books offered inside the site.

                                                        -- TW
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                          Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                          That's the answer to the 13 steps question? Doesn't ring a bell.
                                                          The main subject of the 7th step is book tests. I don't know what the supplement is about. The question seems to imply the supplement is about a WHO, not a WHAT.

                                                          I do see that's the name of one of the books offered inside the site.

                                                          -- TW
                                                          No, ht's not the name of the 13 Steps question, it is the name of the first book by ANTHONY JACQUIN who runs the Head Hacking site I believe..I believe the answer is Fogel though.
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                            Here's the real timeline of this thread.

                                                            Claude posts a trick that has impressed him and challenges us to figure it out.

                                                            We do so with 100 percent success.

                                                            Timothy does not offer any help but just posts sneering, sometimes insulting, self satisfied remarks at how wrong and stupid we are and how great he is being a super secret member of his magic fraternity and knows how it's all done but cant tell us.

                                                            We then move on to DB and despite some disagreement we successfully dissect his magic stage show and pretty much suss out how he does every trick.

                                                            Timothy continues on posting as before.

                                                            The End.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                                              I think Tim's issue (and Tim, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), and my issue too, is that you and Claude still seem to think that Hypnotism is being used in some parts of the tricks we dissected.

                                                              There is NO Hypnotism being used at all! Say it! SAY IT!!!
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                                Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                                                I think Tim's issue (and Tim, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), and my issue too, is that you and Claude still seem to think that Hypnotism is being used in some parts of the tricks we dissected.

                                                                There is NO Hypnotism being used at all! Say it! SAY IT!!!
                                                                Hey you, get on with your work. :-)

                                                                No, we are saying that Stage Hypnotism was used in his act but was completely unrelated to the execution of the trick.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                                  Hey you, get on with your work. :-)

                                                                  No, we are saying that Stage Hypnotism was used in his act but was completely unrelated to the execution of the trick.
                                                                  That's right. The kid was likely hypnotised to lay there still for several minutes, and not react to the "psychic surgery". But it wasn't really part of any of the effects.

                                                                  Hypnosis is real. Stage hypnosis is real. I actually know something about it. I know how it works, and it isn't by using NLP and hidden language.

                                                                  But Darren went through the entire process of getting a good hypnosis subject on stage, to make the tricks go easier...and keep the subject from going off script. (Like grabbing the box and looking at it closely on stage, or walking off stage to go to the bathroom)

                                                                  The fact that the kid reacted as though he were hypnotised, sold the idea to the audience....that this was a stage hypnosis show...when in fact, it was really a magic show.

                                                                  Added later; I only saw hypnosis used in the "feeling an airplane in the box" act. In no other Brown video I've seen.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                                                I think Tim's issue (and Tim, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), and my issue too, is that you and Claude still seem to think that Hypnotism is being used in some parts of the tricks we dissected.

                                                                There is NO Hypnotism being used at all! Say it! SAY IT!!!
                                                                You're actually the one who shed the most insight into how to perform the various illusions.

                                                                Is it that you don't think stage hypnosis is real? That it never works? What knowledge do you have that we don't? I'm certainly willing to listen.

                                                                The effects didn't depend on hypnosis at all, but the kid was very relaxed, and compliant. I think he was in a light state of hypnosis. The selection and compliance process was the same as in every hypnosis show I've seen, and I've had the steps explained to me by the hypnotist.

                                                                But I'm perfectly willing to be wrong.

                                                                I would send the video to my stage hypnotist friend, to ask if the kid was hypnotised, but frankly....he would get irritated, and tell me I already know the answer...because he's spent quite a lot of time, explaining the process, and its limitations.

                                                                Added later; I just realized that this is the first time, in my adult life, that I am not the "unbeliever" in the discussion. Weird.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                  Is it that you don't think stage hypnosis is real? That it never works? What knowledge do you have that we don't? I'm certainly willing to listen.

                                                                  The effects didn't depend on hypnosis at all, but the kid was very relaxed, and compliant. I think he was in a light state of hypnosis. The selection and compliance process was the same as in every hypnosis show I've seen, and I've had the steps explained to me by the hypnotist.

                                                                  But I'm perfectly willing to be wrong.
                                                                  Sorry for the late reply here. I actually got some work done today...

                                                                  Anywho...

                                                                  First, let me be clear, I am no magician and when it comes to the subject of hypnotism, I am operating from a colossal cavern of ignorance. I know zero.

                                                                  I do believe that hypnosis is real. The kind of hypnosis that is performed in a quiet, controlled environment where they help you to quit smoking or remember childhood experiences.

                                                                  But do I believe that ANY human being has the ability to make another human cluck around on stage like a chicken, or make a group of people unable to see another person who is standing right in front of them, or feel a toy airplane when there's nothing there but air?

                                                                  Hells no. No friggin way.

                                                                  Now, perhaps I should retract my earlier statement that "NO hypnosis was used in Derren's act."

                                                                  There is one moment and one moment only where I can't explain what happens and I see only two possibilities:

                                                                  1, Adam was hypnotized, or
                                                                  2. Adam was a stooge

                                                                  This moment was when DB taps him on the head and Adam slumps over as if he's asleep standing up (at about the 19 min. mark.)

                                                                  I see no way to do this other than the above 2 possibilities, so I accept the possibility he's hypnotized.

                                                                  As far as keeping Adam motionless later in the act while he gets operated on, there's a third possibility...

                                                                  Adam gets encased in a glass booth (now I question, "why the prop?")

                                                                  There's a small speaker inside the really big pillow. An assistant off stage speaks quietly to Adam...
                                                                  "Adam, you're doing great. Just stay relaxed. Breath in. Breath out. Nice and calm. Excellent.

                                                                  Now in a moment, Derren is going to lift your shirt above your mid-section. Just stay relaxed, just like you are now. Try not to move.

                                                                  He's going to apply a little pressure to your belly. Stay as still as you can. Perfect! You're doing great, Adam!"
                                                                  Maybe? Of course I don't know for sure, but it sure seems more plausible to me than hypnosis.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                              Here's the real timeline of this thread.

                                                              Claude posts a trick that has impressed him and challenges us to figure it out.

                                                              We do so with 100 percent success.

                                                              Timothy does not offer any help but just posts sneering, sometimes insulting, self satisfied remarks at how wrong and stupid we are and how great he is being a super secret member of his magic fraternity and knows how it's all done but cant tell us.

                                                              We then move on to DB and despite some disagreement we successfully dissect his magic stage show and pretty much suss out how he does every trick.

                                                              Timothy continues on posting as before.

                                                              The End.
                                                              Does not offer any help?

                                                              Really? That's your answer?

                                                              See post # 40. Then see the following posts of me basically begging you, or someone to follow my simple AND HELPFUL, step-by-step blueprint, that I took the time + effort to provide in post # 40.

                                                              No. I helped PLENTY!

                                                              I am the one who first POINTED OUT that your FANTASY ideas were just that, TOTAL FANTASIES, from start to finish.

                                                              If it weren't for me HELPING (in that way), you would still be believing that TOTAL NONSENSE!

                                                              What's MISSING in this thread is your hat-in-hand ADMITTING that your stating of "fact" -- and vehament DEFENSE of -- FANCIFUL FANTASY "methods" that actually turned out to be PURE RUBBISH!

                                                              See again my recent post that begins, "Let's review, shall we..." (post # 181)

                                                              THAT post is an ACCURATE description of what happened here.

                                                              What happened here is the FALLING of your fanciful, FANTASY "facts" that NEVER HAPPENED, DON'T EXIST, and are NOT POSSIBLE -- and never were!

                                                              -- TW

                                                              PS: Also, I never insulted YOU -- I only had issue with your FIERCE DEFENSE of we now can all see turned out to be NONSENSE FANTASY RUBBISH LIES. Note: After all that, we STILL do not see any admission on YOUR PART that you indeed did not know what the HECK you were talking about -- and that your "facts" about how YOU WERE *SURE* these stunts were accomplished, actually turned out to be complete LOONEY-TUNE CRAZINESS.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                                Does not offer any help?

                                                                Really? That's your answer?

                                                                See post # 40. Then see the following posts of me basically begging you, or someone to follow my simple AND HELPFUL, step-by-step blueprint, that I took the time + effort to provide in post # 40.
                                                                Timothy;

                                                                You have helped. Your post #40 was particularly helpful to me.

                                                                And you changed Mark's mind on a few things.

                                                                But he's already acknowledged that, a few times. And I am acknowledging it now, if I haven't before.


                                                                By the way, am I right about the plane in the box?
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                  Timothy;

                                                                  You have helped. Your post #40 was particularly helpful to me.

                                                                  And you changed Mark's mind on a few things.

                                                                  But he's already acknowledged that, a few times. And I am acknowledging it now, if I haven't before.


                                                                  By the way, am I right about the plane in the box?
                                                                  THANKS for acknowledging that I HAVE tried to be helpful in this thread! Actually, I have spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME being helpful here.

                                                                  Also, as you know, there's a built-in limit to how much I can help. My alligiance to my craft PREVENTS me from just coming right out and revealing magic methods! All I can do is GUIDE people "from afar."

                                                                  Now... PLEASE - where oh where are these posts that include Mark saying *I* have changed his mind about some things????????

                                                                  Can you tell me the post #'s on that? I don't see that ANYWHERE. In fact, his most recent post (STILL) says I have not been helpful at all. I also do not see ANY *admission* on his part that says CLEARLY something like, "Hey guys, the methods that I said were 'FACTS' -- and I spent many posts fiercely DEFENDING, actually turned out to be fantasy rubbish LIES (that is, DB was LYING) + NONSENSE -- then NEVER HAPPENED, DON'T EXIST, and are NOT EVEN POSSIBLE (there's NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE TO SUPPORT THAT THEY ARE POSSIBLE)."

                                                                  That would be the intellectually honest and gentlemanly thing to do!

                                                                  Has he done it? Show me the post #'s, please.

                                                                  He should AT LEAST do it re: the first card trick video you posted at the TOP of this thread, about which reality was QUICKLY shown on the 1st page of this God forsaken thread!

                                                                  Show me the post #'s where Mark DENOUNCES his (formerly????) fiercely held "facts" about how these things were done -- that turned out to be COMPLETE NONSENSE. Or even any posts where he says *I* was helpful in "changing his mind about some things."

                                                                  -- TW

                                                                  PS: Claude, sorry to get so worked up about this. It just bothers me that Mark continues to not be intellectually honest here. Here's is EXACTLY how "case study # 1" played out. Yet I STILL see no acknowledgement FROM HIM that that is exactly what happened -- even though it is clearly DOCUMENTED here, for all to see. His most recent post shows that he WILL NOT admit that is what happened! That's either being intellectually dishonest, or a sore loser, or both.

                                                                  Again, for review...

                                                                  Case study # 1...

                                                                  Claude posts a video of a card trick.
                                                                  Very soon thereafter, lanfear posts this... (post # 6)...
                                                                  _________________________________
                                                                  Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by lanfear63
                                                                  The card trick could have failed but could only be done by verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card.

                                                                  Darren Brown's very good at that.

                                                                  ________________________________


                                                                  This is the part of that post I want to focus on, for a moment...

                                                                  "...could only be done by..."

                                                                  the question really is, what thought process ends with the typing of such a bold conclusion? I don't know -- but I can say it's a mind map that does NOT include a branch that says, "maybe I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, on this topic."

                                                                  Then the next part...

                                                                  "verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card."


                                                                  That, we were told, is the ONLY WAY the trick could've been done.
                                                                  We were told this very confidently, and DEFINITIVELY!

                                                                  Then (equally as confidently)...

                                                                  "Darren Brown's very good at that."

                                                                  ________________________

                                                                  Now the results of Case Study # 1...

                                                                  "Only method" ultimately shown to be...

                                                                  > Not even there at all.
                                                                  > 100% F-A-L-S-E.
                                                                  > Never happened.
                                                                  > A total FANTASY.
                                                                  > Not needed.
                                                                  > Not even POSSIBLE! (if you STILL insist it's possible, show me someone else doing it)

                                                                  Actual method: SIMPLE CONJURING TRICK available for any 10 year old to buy on ebay for <$20, and has been available for 20+ years.

                                                                  FALLOUT: Original "explanation" which was stated as FACT, TOTALLY TROUNCED!!!

                                                                  In essence, lanfear was as wrong as wrong can be.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                                                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                                PS: Also, I never insulted YOU -- I only had issue with your FIERCE DEFENSE of we now can all see turned out to be NONSENSE FANTASY RUBBISH LIES. Note: After all that, we STILL do not see any admission on YOUR PART that you indeed did not know what the HECK you were talking about -- and that your "facts" about how YOU WERE *SURE* these stunts were accomplished, actually turned out to be complete LOONEY-TUNE CRAZINESS.
                                                                In case you're interested in an outside opinion, I think you've insulted Mark plenty, and perhaps a few others if I bothered to go back through the thread.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                                  In case you're interested in an outside opinion, I think you've insulted Mark plenty, and perhaps a few others if I bothered to go back through the thread.
                                                                  Let me stick my nose in the doo doo.

                                                                  I agree with Dennis.

                                                                  Many on this forum know a bit about the field of magic and mentalism and NLP.
                                                                  (God I miss Lawrh, he knew a lot about NLP)

                                                                  When I saw your name I thought, could it be this Timothy Wenk?

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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                                    Yep.

                                                                    Also, not insulting anyone.
                                                                    Just wanting folks to debate in good faith and be intellectually honest.
                                                                    That wasnt, and still isn't, happening here.

                                                                    The expected "mensch" factor, sadly, is missing.

                                                                    -- TW
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                                    Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                                                                    Let me stick my nose in the doo doo.

                                                                    I agree with Dennis.

                                                                    Many on this forum know a bit about the field of magic and mentalism and NLP.
                                                                    (God I miss Lawrh, he knew a lot about NLP)

                                                                    When I saw your name I thought, could it be this Timothy Wenk?

                                                                    Misled by Timothy Wenk - www.MagicCastle.com.sg - YouTube
                                                                    Yep. Me.

                                                                    Rest if my response got posted separately.
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                                      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                                      Yep. Me.

                                                                      Rest if my response got posted separately.
                                                                      Timothy. I know I said I had left this thread as far as participation in what we were initially talking about (and that remains) but popping back I saw that video of you and did a bit of googling, found a few pics and vids.

                                                                      So, you once filled stadiums or at least was one of the acts and looked like an eighties pop star or a young David Copperfield. You also create and market magic tricks. Perhaps that's why you'r down here learning and participating in online marketing of these tricks as well as offering your services in voice over video's.

                                                                      You also put on magic shows in much smaller venue's these days but make a steady income from it and I suspect royalties from your tricks. Correct?

                                                                      I got all that just by reading your posts (and google)

                                                                      So there you were doing a stadium. Was that a one off or did you have a brush with big time fame or perhaps a residency in Vegas or something? I'm originally from the UK so excuse me for not knowing your name. I also assure you that asking these questions is purely out of interest!
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                                                                      • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                                        Timothy. I know I said I had left this thread as far as participation in what we were initially talking about (and that remains) but popping back I saw that video of you and did a bit of googling, found a few pics and vids.

                                                                        So, you once filled stadiums or at least was one of the acts and looked like an eighties pop star or a young David Copperfield. You also create and market magic tricks. Perhaps that's why you'r down here learning and participating in online marketing of these tricks as well as offering your services in voice over video's.

                                                                        You also put on magic shows in much smaller venue's these days but make a steady income from it and I suspect royalties from your tricks. Correct?

                                                                        I got all that just by reading your posts (and google)

                                                                        So there you were doing a stadium. Was that a one off or did you have a brush with big time fame or perhaps a residency in Vegas or something? I'm originally from the UK so excuse me for not knowing your name. I also assure you that asking these questions is purely out of interest!
                                                                        Actually that is a young David Copperfield doing a trick created by Timothy Wenk. I would say early to mid 80s.
                                                                        But if means that you,Timothy , were very young when you created it.
                                                                        I
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                                      Yep. Me.

                                                                      Rest if my response got posted separately.
                                                                      well I have to admit I own it.
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                                                      Yep. Me.

                                                                      Rest if my response got posted separately.
                                                                      Well,
                                                                      I tried to ask you without being so obvious when I said this in post number 200

                                                                      "I do know of a Timothy W in the magic community but I don't think it is this one. Am I Misled, Timothy?"
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                                        • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          I think I have it.

                                          The hand is real. It's the kid's hand. You can see through the box. But what you see is (depending on the angle) the back of the table, and two arms of the audience behind. Two different people. Both with red leather coats, and a dark spot between them. I think the shape of the plane was in the dark spot. toward the top, behind his hand.

                                          It would give the illusion that the box was empty, because the reference points behind the box (The two leather jacket arms and the table top) indicated that the box was empty. But it wasn't. The small plane was just in a dark spot. And at no time did either of the people behind the box, move at all. I think he felt something like a small plane, and the rest was suggestion.

                                          Just put the box in the right spot, have the two girls sit in the right spot...and Viola!

                                          Really, I think that's it. Anyone?
                                          I don't know, Claude. Could be.

                                          I am convinced it's a trick box. How the trick works, I'd like to figure out, but I don't think my brain works like that.

                                          Some of the gimmicks magicians create are downright genius. And this "empty box" looks like a really good one.

                                          But I'll take a guess and say there's a mirror involved somewhere...
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                                          • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                            Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                            Some of the gimmicks magicians create are downright genius.
                                            Looks like our man TW has got one of these mad scientist minds and created a pretty mind-boggling gimmick himself. It seems us nobodies are SOL if we want to get our hands on it though. Bummer.

                                            Along those lines though...

                                            I was going to start a new thread, but as there's only about a half dozen of us still reading this one, I'm just going to shift topics a bit right here.

                                            What's the best trick you've ever done?

                                            Summer is coming, and I know from experience, it's a lot of fun to pull off a really remarkable stunt for a small group at a bbq.

                                            I've always been a great fan of magic. I love to watch it, I enjoy figuring out how it's done, I enjoy even more when it's just impossible to figure out how it's done.

                                            I never actually entered the world of magic though, because it requires more practice than I'm willing to dedicate.

                                            I do have the discipline to learn and practice A trick though, and I'd like to learn a new one.

                                            A few of the tricks I learned over the years that were simple to learn and didn't require a ton of practice to get natural with, and that got a fantastic reaction were:

                                            Healed and Sealed - You've probably seen it. David Blaine and Criss Angel have done it on TV. When I bought the trick at my local magic shop, it was a Criss Angel product.

                                            You pick up a crushed, empty soda can. You hold it gingerly between two fingers and magically wave your hand over the can.

                                            Suddenly, before everyone's eyes, the can mysteriously begins to fill. All the dents in the can begin pushing out, smoothing out, until the entire can is completely "Healed."

                                            Then, you wave your hand over the top of the can and it is amazingly "Sealed!" You pop the top... Pftssssssss ... and you pour out the soda from the now full can.

                                            It takes preparation, but that prep can be worth it.

                                            I was on vacation with my family, in-laws included.

                                            I had done the trick for an audience twice before. Once for my wife and kids in the kitchen, and once at a friend's bbq.

                                            Now on vacation, I'm with the family walking out of our hotel on the way to the parking lot. My sister-in-law spots a crushed, empty soda can on the curb and says, "Robert! Do the trick with the soda can I heard you do."

                                            I had originally planned to discover the can myself and then say, "Hey family, check this out." But to have sister Lisa spot the can and challenge me, well that was too perfect.

                                            Then the kids chimed in, "Do it dad! Do it!"

                                            I picked up the can and blew their friggin' minds.

                                            Another simple trick that actually blew my own mind was when I had my buddy think of a card and I then produced it.

                                            I learned it in a David Blaine book. "Mysterious Stranger" I think. This was a long time ago.

                                            Blaine gave a list of the top four cards a person will say when you ask them to think of a card (it might have been different lists for men and women.)

                                            I took those four cards and put one in each pants pocket.

                                            When I was ready to do the trick, I held the deck of cards in my open palm and said to my buddy, "Think of a card... Got it?"

                                            When he said yes, I put my right foot up on the chair next to me, raised the deck of cards above my head and SLAMMED them into my upper thigh, letting the cards explode everywhere.

                                            I then put my foot back down, very slowly took two fingers and in slow motion lifted just the very tip of the card from my front pocket where the cards just hit. I told my buddy, "Without touching my dick, please remove the card from my pocket."

                                            One of the easiest tricks I ever did with the most mind-blowing result possible. I could hardly believe it worked myself. I have NEVER attempted it since.

                                            Got any tricks you've learned and love to perform?
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                                            • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                              Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                              Looks like our man TW has got one of these mad scientist minds and created a pretty mind-boggling gimmick himself. It seems us nobodies are SOL if we want to get our hands on it though. Bummer.

                                              Along those lines though...

                                              I was going to start a new thread, but as there's only about a half dozen of us still reading this one, I'm just going to shift topics a bit right here.

                                              What's the best trick you've ever done?

                                              Summer is coming, and I know from experience, it's a lot of fun to pull off a really remarkable stunt for a small group at a bbq.

                                              I've always been a great fan of magic. I love to watch it, I enjoy figuring out how it's done, I enjoy even more when it's just impossible to figure out how it's done.

                                              I never actually entered the world of magic though, because it requires more practice than I'm willing to dedicate.

                                              I do have the discipline to learn and practice A trick though, and I'd like to learn a new one.

                                              A few of the tricks I learned over the years that were simple to learn and didn't require a ton of practice to get natural with, and that got a fantastic reaction were:

                                              Healed and Sealed - You've probably seen it. David Blaine and Criss Angel have done it on TV. When I bought the trick at my local magic shop, it was a Criss Angel product.

                                              You pick up a crushed, empty soda can. You hold it gingerly between two fingers and magically wave your hand over the can.

                                              Suddenly, before everyone's eyes, the can mysteriously begins to fill. All the dents in the can begin pushing out, smoothing out, until the entire can is completely "Healed."

                                              Then, you wave your hand over the top of the can and it is amazingly "Sealed!" You pop the top... Pftssssssss ... and you pour out the soda from the now full can.

                                              It takes preparation, but that prep can be worth it.

                                              I was on vacation with my family, in-laws included.

                                              I had done the trick for an audience twice before. Once for my wife and kids in the kitchen, and once at a friend's bbq.

                                              Now on vacation, I'm with the family walking out of our hotel on the way to the parking lot. My sister-in-law spots a crushed, empty soda can on the curb and says, "Robert! Do the trick with the soda can I heard you do."

                                              I had originally planned to discover the can myself and then say, "Hey family, check this out." But to have sister Lisa spot the can and challenge me, well that was too perfect.

                                              Then the kids chimed in, "Do it dad! Do it!"

                                              I picked up the can and blew their friggin' minds.

                                              Another simple trick that actually blew my own mind was when I had my buddy think of a card and I then produced it.

                                              I learned it in a David Blaine book. "Mysterious Stranger" I think. This was a long time ago.

                                              Blaine gave a list of the top four cards a person will say when you ask them to think of a card (it might have been different lists for men and women.)

                                              I took those four cards and put one in each pants pocket.

                                              When I was ready to do the trick, I held the deck of cards in my open palm and said to my buddy, "Think of a card... Got it?"

                                              When he said yes, I put my right foot up on the chair next to me, raised the deck of cards above my head and SLAMMED them into my upper thigh, letting the cards explode everywhere.

                                              I then put my foot back down, very slowly took two fingers and in slow motion lifted just the very tip of the card from my front pocket where the cards just hit. I told my buddy, "Without touching my dick, please remove the card from my pocket."

                                              One of the easiest tricks I ever did with the most mind-blowing result possible. I could hardly believe it worked myself. I have NEVER attempted it since.

                                              Got any tricks you've learned and love to perform?
                                              Best trick would be difficult to say.
                                              Probably the one that I used to do involved something that cost about a dollar long ago, probably about $10 now, I haven't kept up with it.Thankfully the number of smokers has dwindled, but when I was younger almost everyone smoked.
                                              I would walk over, to someone about to put their butt out and ask to see it.
                                              Then , depending on the weather at the time, I would grab a piece of their clothing, jacket, t-shirt, etc etc, and put the cigarette out. Then you show them the cigarette butt is gone and their clothing undamaged. People literally freak out. Impossible to do now with many smokers "vaping" these days.

                                              One of my personal favorites is color changing knives. That's pretty self explanatory.

                                              For the past 15 years or so I have focused on mentalism and NLP and hypnosis. Someone Timothy mentioned on page one is one of the best, Richard Osterlind. . Another who I learned from is Bob Cassidy.
                                              (have to go somewhere, will come back and finish this post in an hour or so).
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                I bought the pencil that fits on your fingernail.

                                                At my Brother-in-laws,, I managed to get the conversation to "mental abilities", and let them go on about it for several minutes, so they would forget that I was the one that started the conversation.

                                                I pretended to be slightly insulted by a joke my Brother-in-law made. I started telling him about my martial arts studies, and how we developed a sixth sense...and could literally read minds. I waited for him to tell me to prove it.
                                                I said it took a lot out of me, and I could only do it once, so it had to be something I couldn't fake, no guessing, no obvious limited choices.

                                                I told him to pick a number between one and a thousand.

                                                He picked a three digit number. I asked him several times to hold the same number in his mind. Think of the shape of the numbers. "No, clearer. the actual shape of the numbers. Make the numbers bright red. That's it." . I even acted exhausted by the effort. I (fake) wrote it on a small tablet. I put down the pencil, out of my reach. I asked him to say the number.

                                                I then asked several questions to make sure he really wanted to stick with that number.

                                                I was stalling, so I could use my mini-pencil to write the number. I gave the piece of paper to his wife, and she handed it him. Of course, it was the number he said.

                                                The result wasn't what I expected. They got scared. My sister-in-law started crying. They are a religious family. And they were now sure, I was in league with the Devil. I'm not kidding, I ruined everyone's day.

                                                So, I showed them how I did it, and that just made them angrier. They wouldn't speak to me for a long time after that. My wife had no idea what I was doing, but knew (from the way I acted) that it was a sham.

                                                Yeah, it was a very quiet ride home that night.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                  I bought the pencil that fits on your fingernail.

                                                  At my Brother-in-laws,, I managed to get the conversation to "mental abilities", and let them go on about it for several minutes, so they would forget that I was the one that started the conversation.

                                                  I pretended to be slightly insulted by a joke my Brother-in-law made. I started telling him about my martial arts studies, and how we developed a sixth sense...and could literally read minds. I waited for him to tell me to prove it.
                                                  I said it took a lot out of me, and I could only do it once, so it had to be something I couldn't fake, no guessing, no obvious limited choices.

                                                  I told him to pick a number between one and a thousand.

                                                  He picked a three digit number. I asked him several times to hold the same number in his mind. Think of the shape of the numbers. "No, clearer. the actual shape of the numbers. Make the numbers bright red. That's it." . I even acted exhausted by the effort. I (fake) wrote it on a small tablet. I put down the pencil, out of my reach. I asked him to say the number.

                                                  I then asked several questions to make sure he really wanted to stick with that number.

                                                  I was stalling, so I could use my mini-pencil to write the number. I gave the piece of paper to his wife, and she handed it him. Of course, it was the number he said.

                                                  The result wasn't what I expected. They got scared. My sister-in-law started crying. They are a religious family. And they were now sure, I was in league with the Devil. I'm not kidding, I ruined everyone's day.

                                                  So, I showed them how I did it, and that just made them angrier. They wouldn't speak yo me for a long time after that. My wife had no idea what I was doing, but knew (from the way I acted) that it was a sham.

                                                  Yeah, it was a very quiet ride home that night.
                                                  "I ruined everyone's day"

                                                  A regular occurrence here. You Satanic Lucifer Demon you. Your not getting enough Exorcise.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    I just watched this whole thing. It's a Darren Brown show, The Heist.

                                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaHbACoYNSA#t=34

                                                    (Added later; To ExRat. Honest to God, man...I forgot that You already posted this video.)



                                                    They are actors. The people being fooled is not them, but us. There is soooo much that could have gone wrong. For example, the subjects could have used a real gun.

                                                    They are attending a seminar? How was it marketed? That's an arduous expensive process. People just don't show up.

                                                    We are convinced that he has the ability to convince regular people, to commit armed robbery.

                                                    Soooooo why are they each walking on the exact street, when the money is being loaded? Don't they notice that there is nobody else on the street? No traffic? (Except the "Do you feel it" playing in a car.)

                                                    The same train of thought is the premise of the recent movies Now You See Me and Focus.

                                                    Amazing what we can be led to believe. I mean us, for believing it's real.

                                                    Maybe the store clerks were real. I would think they were actors. What if they called the police? What if a fight started? What if they grabbed the thief? I know the street was real......
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                                                      "King Kong is only four feet tall".


                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      I just watched this whole thing. It's a Darren Brown show, The Heist.

                                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaHbACoYNSA#t=34

                                                      They are actors. The people being fooled is not them, but us. There is soooo much that could have gone wrong. For example, the subjects could have used a real gun.

                                                      They are attending a seminar? How was it marketed? That's an arduous expensive process. People just don't show up.

                                                      We are convinced that he has the ability to convince regular people, to commit armed robbery.

                                                      Soooooo why are they each walking on the exact street, when the money is being loaded? Don't they notice that there is nobody else on the street? No traffic? (Except the "Do you feel it" playing in a car.)

                                                      The same train of thought is the premise of the recent movies Now You See Me and Focus.

                                                      Amazing what we can be led to believe. I mean us, for believing it's real.

                                                      Maybe the store clerks were real. I would think they were actors. What if they called the police? What if a fight started? What if they grabbed the thief? I know the street was real......
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      They are actors.


                                                      I think you're wrong there Claude. Fact is stranger than fiction.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

                                                        I think you're wrong there Claude. Fact is stranger than fiction.
                                                        Fact is stranger than fiction. I agree.

                                                        But I'm almost 100% sure, they are actors.

                                                        Would you steal from a store? What would convince you to do that?

                                                        The experiments were real, pretty standard examples of how we react to authority.

                                                        But the preparation, getting the people to attend, getting them to steal from a local store...

                                                        Getting them to rob a man on a street.....what would convince you to do that?

                                                        Think outside the show.......What has to happen outside the show, for everything to work?

                                                        How complex would this be to pull off with real people? With actors, you can do everything in a day or so. With real people? Have you ever organized and sold a seminar? It's a long and expensive process. What if any of the group realized what was going on, and talked to anyone else in the group. What if someone just stood up and said, "You want us to break the law? Are you nuts?"

                                                        Didn't anyone ask, "Why is this area cordoned off? And if it is, why are there still people working in this drug store?"
                                                        Wouldn't you notice if you were the only person for blocks?

                                                        There is just sooooo much that could go wrong. Too much. With actors, you can produce this weekly show, in a day or two. Would real people know if the meal was included? Yes. Would they still pay?
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                          Would you steal from a store? What would convince you to do that?

                                                          To answer your question Claude nothing would convince me to steal from a local store or from a security guard. (In fact, it wouldn't work on many if not most people ...)

                                                          Why? A great percentage of the show (from the very beginning where only "open-responsive" people were chosen) was to filter out people who the "persuasion process" woun't work on.

                                                          For example, Paul, the guy who paid for the meal, stood up against stealing from the shop even though it was framed as being "fun." Another person, Veronica, also decided not to steal because of her religious values.

                                                          The fact is, authority can be a very powerful motivator. (See "Influence: The Psychology Of Persuasion.")

                                                          All 4 of the final candidates administered what they believed were lethal does of electricity to another person. The leap to robbing a security guard isn't so great. (Again, this wouldn't work on everyone.)


                                                          In the real Milgram experiment over 50% of participants delivered the lethal dose of 450 volts. Under the influence of authority, people can be persuaded against their own best interests and the interests of other people.


                                                          My opinion is that The Heist was real.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      I just watched this whole thing. It's a Darren Brown show, The Heist.

                                                      The people being fooled is not them, but us.

                                                      Amazing what we can be led to believe. I mean us, for believing it's real.
                                                      EXACTLY!!!

                                                      Basically what's happening is, the viewing public is no longer being *entertained* -- it's being DUPED.
                                                      And that's *not right*

                                                      Then, when you encounter such a DUPED member of the public... and they INSIST on not only being duped, but they FIERCELY DEFEND the bullcrap FANTASY LIES they have been fed -- even in the face of CLEAR evidence of the TRUTH, what is one to do?

                                                      -- TW

                                                      PS: That "pencil thingy" is called a swami gimmick.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I watched about an hour of Darren Brown this morning (while working.)

        Not 100% sure how he does his illusions, but....

        It isn't by reading the subtle signals the people are giving off. Far too risky.

        My first thought is that some of the people in the audience filled out cards, giving information...and he targeted those people in the audience, already having full knowledge of their answers. They wouldn't be stooges. They would probably not even remember that they gave that information before the show. Maybe a few people were in line, listening for conversations that they could use.

        That would be the safest way, and would prevent an audience member from making the connection.

        Ministers that do faith healing often do that. Or they use information off of mailing lists.

        I'm 99% sure that he had the answers and the targeted audience members in mind, before the show.

        But I know that these were not randomly selected members of the audience. That's why he asked the selection questions first. A great showman though, very entertaining.


        Timothy, am I right? You can PM me if you like.

        PS, A confederate backstage, feeding information into an earpiece would make this much easier, especially locating the specific people in an audience that large.
        Like any good trickster, DB uses all kinds of methods.
        That's a great way to "keep 'em guessing."

        He's VERY GOOD at what he does! VERY GOOD!

        I commend him for that -- I have nothing against him at all.

        I don't even mind if people believe his false explanations of how he is accomplishing his stunts.

        I DO get bothered when people try to get *ME* to subscribe to what I KNOW is nonsense. That I cannot do!

        It so happens that DB has found a "niche" that suits him very well.

        He found a "sweet spot" -- his "explanations" of HOW he is accomplishing his stunts are readily BELIEVED by his audience, where they might not otherwise be.

        For instance, if he was claiming to be a psychic, many would not believe him.
        So, he has found an "explanation" that SEEMS more plausible -- and he has RUN with it!

        As for the REAL methods he uses -- he mixes it up all the time. Some of the methods are very clever and well thought out! But his "schtick" is to take conjuring + mentalism methods, and TWIST them all around so -- instead of "proving" that he has PSYCHIC "abilities," they instead "prove" that he has "super subtle mind manipulation" abilities.

        He does not have those abilities. Those abilities (to the SUPERIOR EXTENT he claims he has, and is demonstrating), DO NOT EXIST.

        Or... let's put it this way... They DO exist, in the same way the "pixie dust" method exists.

        That's it, in a nutshell.

        -- TW
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

          As for the REAL methods he uses -- he mixes it up all the time. Some of the methods are very clever and well thought out! But his "schtick" is to take conjuring + mentalism methods, and TWIST them all around so -- instead of "proving" that he has PSYCHIC "abilities," they instead "prove" that he has "super subtle mind manipulation" abilities.
          The Amazing Kreskin does the same thing. He doesn't claim mystical powers (in his books), but then he gives the same 'subtle readings of body language" explanation. It's kind of irritating. And he even says that he sometimes doesn't know how he does his illusions. My guess is that he has a small number of believers in his audience, and wants to keep that appeal alive.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The Amazing Kreskin does the same thing. He doesn't claim mystical powers (in his books), but then he gives the same 'subtle readings of body language" explanation. It's kind of irritating. And he even says that he sometimes doesn't know how he does his illusions. My guess is that he has a small number of believers in his audience, and wants to keep that appeal alive.
            The magic ocmmunity hasn't figured out WHY, but -- believe it or not -- Kreskin wrote a book called, "How to be a *FAKE* Kreskin."

            How to Be a Fake Kreskin: The Amazing Kreskin:...How to Be a Fake Kreskin: The Amazing Kreskin:...
            In it, he totally reveals all his methods -- saying (believe it or not) -- "*I* do all my stunts using REAL psychic abilities -- BUT if SOMEONE wanted to duplicate what I do, using TRICKERY, here's how they could do it!"

            WOW! Talk about BALLS!

            Dunninger was a VERY FAMOUS "rock star" mentalist in his day.
            He was VERY famous then. He went to the trouble of putting together a HUGE book that "revealed" all the magician's methods -- the clever part is, MANY of the methods "revealed" were PURPOSELY INCORRECT.

            I suppose he thought it would help stop people from trying to find out the REAL methods. Book is worth getting -- the ILLUSTRATIONS are INCREDIBLE!!

            Dunningers Complete Encyclopedia Of Magic: Joseph...Dunningers Complete Encyclopedia Of Magic: Joseph...
            Now, I must say there is ONE THING that Kreskin does (and he is world famous for it) DOES border on being ACTUALLY psychic! Now... BEFORE you and others jump up and down,let me explain...

            It's called "contact muscle reading." It IS picking up on subtle clues the volunteer is SUBCONSCIOUSLY giving off. Now NOTE(!) That is NOT the same thing as TRUE telepathy. There is NOTHING SUPERNATURAL about it!

            BUT -- and this is an IMPORTANT POINT -- the practitioner of muscle reading can get SO GOOD AT IT OVER TIME, the he himself does NOT know (sense) HOW he is accomplishing it! Kreskin has reached that level in this skill.

            Look up "pendulum lie detector" for more on this phenom.
            https://youtu.be/z81VaIZxQmY

            http://www.pendulums.com/PLD/faqs.htm

            Here's "how it works"...
            (note the weasel words used in the last paragraph)...
            http://www.pendulums.com/PLD/how_it_works.htm

            (basically, the same way a ouija board works)

            Can even be done with the pendulum suspended INSIDE A BOTTLE!

            It is so powerful, it seems INEXPLICABLE, even to the person DOING IT!

            I does SEEM to border on ACTUAL psychic abilities, because it is being accomplish WITHOUT the conscious mind being involved.

            Again NOTE -- that is NOT the same thing a ACTUAL psychic abilities!!
            But it sure can LOOK + FEEL like actual psychic abilities!!!

            And THAT is something that Kreskin DOES actually EXCEL at!
            In fact, his entire reputation is based upon that foundation of THAT particular *skill* which IS QUASI-legitimate! He often sets it up where he has to FIND HIS CHECK -- or a PIN (!), hidden somwewhere in a HUGE city -- and it STILL works!!

            He has gotten to the point where he doesn't even need to have DIRECT contact with the person -- they hold one end of a handkerchief and he holds the other -- it IS truly amazing to watch! Even for magicians!

            For some reason I couldn't find a vid of Kreskin doing this stunt -- but here's this...


            -- TW
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

              The magic ocmmunity hasn't figured out WHY, but -- believe it or not -- Kreskin wrote a book called, "How to be a *FAKE* Kreskin."
              In it, he totally reveals all his methods -- saying (believe it or not) -- "*I* do all my stunts using REAL psychic abilities -- BUT if SOMEONE wanted to duplicate what I do, using TRICKERY, here's how they could do it!"

              WOW! Talk about BALLS!

              Dunninger was a VERY FAMOUS "rock star" mentalist in his day.
              He was VERY famous then. He went to the trouble of putting together a HUGE book that "revealed" all the magician's methods -- the clever part is, MANY of the methods "revealed" were PURPOSELY INCORRECT.

              I suppose he thought it would help stop people from trying to find out the REAL methods. Book is worth getting -- the ILLUSTRATIONS are INCREDIBLE!!

              Dunningers Complete Encyclopedia Of Magic: Joseph Dunninger: 9780517010778: Amazon.com: Books

              Now, I must say there is ONE THING that Kreskin does (and he is world famous for it) DOES border on being ACTUALLY psychic! Now... BEFORE you and others jump up and down,let me explain...

              It's called "muscle reading." It IS picking up on subtle clues the volunteer is SUBCONSCIOUSLY giving off. Now NOTE(!) That is NOT the same thing as TRUE telepathy. There is NOTHING SUPERNATURAL about it!

              BUT -- and this is an IMPORTANT POINT -- the practitioner of muscle reading can get SO GOOD AT IT OVER TIME, the he himself does NOT know (sense) HOW he is accomplishing it! Kreskin has reached that level in this skill.

              Look up "pendulum lie detector" for more on this phenom.

              It is so powerful, it seems INEXPLICABLE, even to the person DOING IT!

              I does SEEM to border on ACTUAL psychic abilities, because it is being accomplish WITHOUT the conscious mind being involved.

              Again NOTE -- that is NOT the same thing a ACTUAL psychic abilities!!
              But it sure can LOOK + FEEL like actual psychic abilities!!!

              And THAT is something that Kreskin DOES actually EXCEL at!
              In fact, his entire reputation is based upon that foundation of THAT particular *skill* which IS QUASI-legitimate!

              -- TW
              I had Dunninger's complete encyclopedia of magic as a kid. Pity that a lot of the props he used (like the books of matches) are not used anymore. Why are we even discussing claims of psychic ability, cold readings or real mental powers anyway. They are not even on the table here.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                I had Dunninger's complete encyclopedia of magic as a kid. Pity that a lot of the props he used (like the books of matches) are not used anymore. Why are we even discussing claims of psychic ability, cold readings or real mental powers anyway. They are not even on the table here.
                I wanna see you do you homework (due diligence) on the "bmx bike" video.
                You seem not to be willing to do that.
                Why?

                _______________________________________

                Again, your "take + opinion" on what is going on, is emanating from a colossal cavern of ignorance -- you need to acknowledge that. You're not.

                Do you WANT to see the reality of this -- or not?
                I have taken the time to give you all the "keys" to see the reality.
                All you have to do is pick up the keys, put them in the lock... AND TURN.

                So you're saying you're NOT gonna do this, after all?...
                (if not, why not)

                How about this -- why don't YOU go back to the other video you posted (bmx bike), and do the WORK (deconstructing) I have recommended -- re: THAT video, and let's see how far YOU get in PUBLICLY ***RENOUNCING*** your eagerly held beliefs about THAT video, FIRST?

                Let that be your first step in a "12-step" program of RECOVERY.

                THEN we'll talk about further steps.

                -- TW

                PS: For instance, did you do a google search for "mentalism" and "pre-show work" yet?
                Again, you need to be consulting magicians to get accurate info on this topic!
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

              The magic ocmmunity hasn't figured out WHY, but -- believe it or not -- Kreskin wrote a book called, "How to be a *FAKE* Kreskin."
              In it, he totally reveals all his methods -- saying (believe it or not) -- "*I* do all my stunts using REAL psychic abilities -- BUT if SOMEONE wanted to duplicate what I do, using TRICKERY, here's how they could do it!"

              WOW! Talk about BALLS!

              Dunninger was a VERY FAMOUS "rock star" mentalist in his day.
              He was VERY famous then. He went to the trouble of putting together a HUGE book that "revealed" all the magician's methods -- the clever part is, MANY of the methods "revealed" were PURPOSELY INCORRECT.

              I suppose he thought it would help stop people from trying to find out the REAL methods. Book is worth getting -- the ILLUSTRATIONS are INCREDIBLE!!

              Dunningers Complete Encyclopedia Of Magic: Joseph Dunninger: 9780517010778: Amazon.com: Books

              Now, I must say there is ONE THING that Kreskin does (and he is world famous for it) DOES border on being ACTUALLY psychic! Now... BEFORE you and others jump up and down,let me explain...

              It's called "muscle reading." It IS picking up on subtle clues the volunteer is SUBCONSCIOUSLY giving off. Now NOTE(!) That is NOT the same thing as TRUE telepathy. There is NOTHING SUPERNATURAL about it!

              BUT -- and this is an IMPORTANT POINT -- the practitioner of muscle reading can get SO GOOD AT IT OVER TIME, the he himself does NOT know (sense) HOW he is accomplishing it! Kreskin has reached that level in this skill.

              Look up "pendulum lie detector" for more on this phenom.

              It is so powerful, it seems INEXPLICABLE, even to the person DOING IT!

              I does SEEM to border on ACTUAL psychic abilities, because it is being accomplish WITHOUT the conscious mind being involved.

              Again NOTE -- that is NOT the same thing a ACTUAL psychic abilities!!
              But it sure can LOOK + FEEL like actual psychic abilities!!!

              And THAT is something that Kreskin DOES actually EXCEL at!
              In fact, his entire reputation is based upon that foundation of THAT particular *skill* which IS QUASI-legitimate!

              -- TW
              Timothy; I'm accepting your explanation of Kreskin's "Find the check" trick he uses at the end of his shows. If I were to guess (before your post) I would have assumed a confederate in the audience, letting him know where the check was.

              I don't think anyone on this thread is seriously suggesting that Brown has real psychic powers. But watching his "pay with paper" video....

              Assuming that there is no editing to obscure what is happening, the way Brown is talking, he is breaking the people's concentration, and making suggestions.

              I don't know the answer, but it could be that Brown is paying with real bills, until the very instant that the clerks are taking the money. So they don't look at it again.

              But....I think the hot dog guy incident was there, just to convince us that Brown was using the blank paper in every instance. It's a guess. I really don't know.
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              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                After hearing you out on the BMX trick TW, and completely ignoring all the subtle clues and taps and whatnot DB was feeding the spectator (both the guy in front of him and us), it looks like the same type of trick I've seen a dozen times...

                "What card did you put in the sealed envelope?"
                "Queen of Hearts"
                "And you sealed the envelope and that's your signature across the seal?"
                "Yup."
                "Open the envelope."
                "Hey! It's the Ace of Spades! Where'd my Queen go?"
                "Ahh... Look at that giant billboard behind you..."

                Not saying I have any clue how it's done. I just believe TW that there was no mentalist type stuff used here at all.

                Paying the 47th St. Jeweler with blank paper and walking out with the ring... now that's a neat trick!
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                  After hearing you out on the BMX trick TW, and completely ignoring all the subtle clues and taps and whatnot DB was feeding the spectator (both the guy in front of him and us), it looks like the same type of trick I've seen a dozen times...

                  "What card did you put in the sealed envelope?"
                  "Queen of Hearts"
                  "And you sealed the envelope and that's your signature across the seal?"
                  "Yup."
                  "Open the envelope."
                  "Hey! It's the Ace of Spades! Where'd my Queen go?"
                  "Ahh... Look at that giant billboard behind you..."

                  Not saying I have any clue how it's done. I just believe TW that there was no mentalist type stuff used here at all.

                  Paying the 47th St. Jeweler with blank paper and walking out with the ring... now that's a neat trick!
                  YES! Of course - -the "taps" and "verbal suggestions" etc. are ALL BULLCRAP WINDOW DRESSING -- they have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL METHOD USED. That is the LIE DB is trying to peddle here.

                  Also, be careful of the term "mentalist." The real definition of that is someone who CLAIMS to have psychic powers -- but doesn't. Just as "magician" is someone who "demonstrates" magical powers -- but doesn't REALLY have them.

                  A showman who creatively uses BULLCRAP to entertain.

                  Is DB claiming to have psychic abilities? NO!
                  But... he IS claiming to have a *particular special ability* that ALSO borders on the unbelievable.
                  Why isn't that claim being QUESTIONED?
                  He might just as well be claiming he can accomplish these things, BECAUSE HE IS FROM MARS!

                  Is what DB REALLY doing, just cleverly RE-WORKED old conjuring tricks? YES!

                  -- TW

                  Could I claim I was psychic if I now say THIS?...
                  I CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE!!! -- I HEREBY PREDICT, The next post from that DB believer will be -- "Ok THAT "bmx" stunt was (totally + completely) FAKE (even though I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED IT WAS ACCOMPLISHED VIA "super subtle mental influencing ninja techniques," by a skilled "MASTER" who was "a JOY TO BEHOLD" and fiercely DEFENDED that belief in a public forum) -- but how about THIS DB video, how do you explain THAT one!"

                  (((sigh)))
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                    YES! Of course - -the "taps" and "verbal suggestions" etc. are ALL BULLCRAP WINDOW DRESSING -- they have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL METHOD USED. That is the LIE DB is trying to peddle here.

                    Also, be careful of the term "mentalist." The real definition of that is someone who CLAIMS to have psychic powers -- but doesn't. Just as "magician" is someone who "demonstrates" magical powers -- but doesn't REALLY have them.

                    A showman who creatively uses BULLCRAP to entertain.

                    Is DB claiming to have psychic abilities? NO!
                    But... he IS claiming to have a *particular special ability* that ALSO borders on the unbelievable.
                    Why isn't that claim being QUESTIONED?
                    He might just as well be claiming he can accomplish these things, BECAUSE HE IS FROM MARS!

                    Is what DB REALLY doing, just cleverly RE-WORKED old conjuring tricks? YES!

                    -- TW

                    Could I claim I was psychic if I now say THIS?...
                    I CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE!!! -- I HEREBY PREDICT, The next post from that DB believer will be -- "Ok THAT "bmx" stunt was (totally + completely) FAKE (even though I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED IT WAS ACCOMPLISHED VIA "super subtle mental influencing ninja techniques," by a skilled "MASTER" who was "a JOY TO BEHOLD" and fiercely DEFENDED that belief in a public forum) -- but how about THIS DB video, how do you explain THAT one!"

                    (((sigh)))
                    "But... he IS claiming to have a *particular special ability* that ALSO borders on the unbelievable."

                    Thats just it, he is not even claiming that. He's just an entertainer.

                    Here is a page from his own website where he discusses the areas of interest that are relevant to what he does: Hypnotism, body language, memory, psychological experiments etc, he recommends further reading too.

                    http://derrenbrown.co.uk/the-core/

                    I do wish you would not refer to me as a believer. I do not recognise that word. There is only truth or un-truth and evidence to support or refute it. I only entertain premises, if they are shot down then I let them go.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      "But... he IS claiming to have a *particular special ability* that ALSO borders on the unbelievable."

                      Thats just it, he is not even claiming that. He's just an entertainer.

                      Here is a page from his own website where he discusses the areas of interest that are relevant to what he does: Hypnotism, body language, memory, psychological experiments etc, he recommends further reading too.

                      The Core | Derren Brown

                      I do wish you would not refer to me as a believer. I do not recognise that word. There is only truth or un-truth and evidence to support or refute it. I only entertain premises, if they are shot down then I let them go.
                      Do you hereby renounce your claim/belief on how that bmx stunt was accomplished?

                      Um -- that's pretty much a yes or a no.

                      Well...?

                      -- TW

                      PS: To signify your agreement, you need to type in something like this...
                      "Ok THAT "bmx" stunt was (totally + completely) FAKE (even though I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED IT WAS ACCOMPLISHED VIA "super subtle mental influencing ninja techniques," by a skilled "MASTER" who was "a JOY TO BEHOLD" and fiercely DEFENDED that belief in a public forum) -- I now know it was accomplished using NONE OF THOSE THINGS AT ALL. IT WAS A SIMPLE CONJURING TRICK, that is all.

                      At this point, in this example, if you don't do that, you are just-plain refusing to acknowledge reality -- and there's nothing I can do to help you!
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                        Do you hereby renounce your claim/belief on how that bmx stunt was accomplished?

                        Um -- that's pretty much a yes or a no.

                        Well...?

                        -- TW
                        In order to renounce entertaining any PREMISE I need some good, solid evidence or explanation to let it go. Alas. that you have not provided. Until that time, I will continue to regard it as a POSSIBILITY OR PROBABILITY. That is neither a yes or a no, just, insufficient data for analysis.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          In order to renounce entertaining any PREMISE I need some good, solid evidence or explanation to let it go. Alas. that you have not provided. Until that time, I will continue to regard it as a POSSIBILITY OR PROBABILITY. That is neither a yes or a no, just, insufficient data for analysis.
                          I'm sorry -- you are being intellectually dishonest here.

                          I have given YOU all the means by which to discover the TRUTH in this matter.
                          YOU must make the "hero's journey" here, and investigate for yourself!

                          Again, I have given you a VERY CLEAR BLUEPRINT on how to do it.

                          --- POST # 40 (including the PS) ---

                          Another person in this thread has ALREADY done his homework on this.

                          Now, go do it (yourself).

                          I have led the horse to water --- now you must drink!

                          WAX ON, WAX OFF.

                          -- TW
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                I once was called to participate in a magic trick on stage with a magician who did both conjuring tricks and then hypnotizing several people at once. The lights that were facing back at him to illuminate the stage were phenomenal. I felt like I could have been hypnotized very easily.
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                • Profile picture of the author perryny
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  I felt like I could have been hypnotized very easily.
                  Perhaps exactly what the magician wanted you and the audience to believe?
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                    Perhaps exactly what the magician wanted you and the audience to believe?
                    No, the trick was unrelated to the hypnotism. This was done separately. It's just something I alone noticed when I was up there. The audience had no awareness of them until the subjects went on stage.
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                • Profile picture of the author peterj
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  I once was called to participate in a magic trick on stage with a magician who did both conjuring tricks and then hypnotizing several people at once. The lights that were facing back at him to illuminate the stage were phenomenal. I felt like I could have been hypnotized very easily.
                  It is well documented that we are constantly going in and out of altered states (indeed, what is an unaltered state? ) and these states can be induced and deepened with various stimuli such as lights, darkness, sounds, sensations etc... almost anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    No -- I fully understand that we are not discussing "real" psychic abilities here.

    But... we ARE discussing someone claiming to have a "special" ability.
    I am telling you that (similar to BOGUS claims SOME PEOPLE MAKE of being truly "psychic"), DB's claims of having a DIFFERENT kind of special ability, is ALSO BOGUS.

    And he's using the same conjuring methods to try to "prove" HIS claim of "special abilities."

    Simple. Yes?

    -- TW

    PS: No confederates needed in what Kreskin does with finding the check. COULD, of course, be done with a stooge -- but, in his case, he "really" does it!!
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    A little lesson in critical thinking...

    A LARGE PART of critical thinking is the ability to assess what is REALITY.
    Then making that bit of REALITY the cornerstone, the true north, the zero line, upon which ALL ELSE is built, and/or compared to.

    Once that CORNERSTONE is firmly established as absolutely TRUE, SQUARE, AND PLUMB, then ALL OTHER INCOMING DATA MUST BE BENT SO IT FITS IN WITH THE CORNERSTONE. No exceptions!

    Unfortunately (and unsettlingly), that's not what happened in the case of the bmx video.

    The baloney LIE was set as the unbendable cornerstone. Then all else was bent to fit THAT!
    That is not critical thinking. It produces FALSE conclusions!

    When I do MAGIC, I fully expect the REACTION (of intelligent adults) to be...

    "WOW! I have no idea HOW he did that -- (but it sure WASN'T real magic!)"

    (kids react differently, because they DO believe that REAL magic exists! Just as they believe that Santa Claus exists)

    The adults are using critical thinking -- since the cornerstone is: Real magic does not exist, then what they are seeing MUST be accomplished by some OTHER means. They know they DON'T know what those means are -- but they ALSO KNOW, there is NO WAY to bend the cornerstone that REAL magic does not exist.

    Hence the RATIONAL reaction, using critical thinking...

    "WOW! I have no idea HOW he did that -- (but it sure WASN'T real magic!)"

    Now, let's look at DB... using these "what-if" scenarios...

    1) "I am DB, and I can accomplish these AMAZING stunts, because I am PSYCHIC!"

    Rational reaction, using critical thinking:

    "WOW! I have no idea HOW he did that -- (but it sure WASN'T real psychic abilites!)"

    2) "I am DB, and I can accomplish these AMAZING stunts, because I am FROM SATURN!"

    Rational reaction, using critical thinking:

    "WOW! I have no idea HOW he did that -- (but I know he sure ISN'T from Saturn!)"

    So...

    Why is the reaction to THIS scenario so different?!?

    2) "I am DB, and I can accomplish these AMAZING stunts, because I am amazingly skilled at ninja, super subtle people-influencing skills that no one else can do!"

    ACTUAL (unfortunate) reaction, NOT using critical thinking:

    "WOW! I have no idea HOW he did that -- (so I guess it MUST be because he has because he has ninja, super subtle people-influencing skills that no one else can do!")"

    Unfortunately, that is witnessing a pretty much OBVIOUS LIE (outrageous claim), and giving it the "cornerstone of reality" trait, THEN continuing on from there!

    You are DOUBTING the things that should be BELIEVED,
    and BELIEVING the things that should be DOUBTED!


    That is what political scientists, and George Orwell call, "Friggin' Scary S--t!"

    It's people like that who eventually end up with a clipboard, dutifully counting the fellow citizens, as they get loaded into the CATTLE CARS!

    -- TW

    PS: And yes -- in most of his stunts, HE IS CLAIMING TO ACCOMPLISH THEM VIA "super subtle people-influencing skills." No amount of BACK-PEDALING can change that.
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  • Profile picture of the author peterj
    In that DB bmx video, up until they reveal the bike, DB is using pure NLP, from the initial 'handshake interrupt' through to the story telling, anchoring and suggestion. (listen to his dialogue)

    Now I don't know what techniques Timothy may be alluding to but it is perfectly feasible that it was done without 'stage magic'.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by peterj View Post

      In that DB bmx video, up until they reveal the bike, DB is using pure NLP, from the initial 'handshake interrupt' through to the story telling, anchoring and suggestion. (listen to his dialogue)

      Now I don't know what techniques Timothy may be alluding to but it is perfectly feasible that it was done without 'stage magic'.
      Nonsense. Again -- do your homework -- starting from the truth that you are (now) operating from a pure ignorance "vantage" point.

      You have answered your own question by saying "I don't know what techniques TW is alluding to."

      -- TW
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      • Profile picture of the author peterj
        Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

        Nonsense. Again -- do your homework -- starting from the truth that you are (now) operating from a pure ignorance "vantage" point.

        You have answered your own question by saying "I don't know what techniques TW is alluding to."

        -- TW
        And I assume you are an expert in NLP!
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by peterj View Post

          And I assume you are an expert in NLP!
          NLP not needed, and not used in this case.

          Do your homework + you will come to the same conclusion -- because that conclusion is the truth (in this case, at least).

          The keys to the truth are in post #40 (including the PS).

          Follow that blueprint, and the truth will set you free!

          -- TW
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          • Profile picture of the author peterj
            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

            NLP not needed, and not used in this case.

            Do your homework + you will come to the same conclusion -- because that conclusion is the truth (in this case, at least).

            The keys to the truth are in post #40 (including the PS).

            Follow that blueprint, and the truth will set you free!

            -- TW
            I am already free, thanks. I'm not really interested in figuring it out. I am just stating that it is possible that he did it using NLP, simple as that.

            Now unless you have it straight out of the horses mouth that it was done otherwise your view of it is as good as mine and calling everybody ignorant in the manner you have been doesn't do you any favours.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by peterj View Post

              I am already free, thanks. I'm not really interested in figuring it out. I am just stating that it is possible that he did it using NLP, simple as that.

              Now unless you have it straight out of the horses mouth that it was done otherwise your view of it is as good as mine and calling everybody ignorant in the manner you have been doesn't do you any favours.
              Follow the blueprint I have laid out, and you will see FOR YOURSELF -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- that it was accomplished otherwise. -- no "horse's mouth" required.

              If you don't explore that, then you are a captive + not free.
              Worse than that, you are a WILLING captive.

              -- TW

              PS: Never said everyone was ignorant. I said they are ignorant on THIS topic. This is an issue that needs to be discussed with someone who is QUALIFIED to see the truth. In this case, that is a MAGICIAN. When viewed in that way, there is NO DOUBT how this was accomplished. It is CRYSTAL CLEAR, and any well posted magician will tell you the same thing. I am such a person, yes. And, yes, you are (obviously) not. Again, this is why James Randi gets so upset. People making judgments WITHOUT the proper tools + knowledge to make the proper judgments. In this case, this is NOT an NLP matter at all! --- This is PURELY a CONJURING TRICK MATTER. Period. Admit your ignorance ON THIS MATTER, then seek the counsel of someone who *IS* qualified. Doesn't have to be ME. DOES have to be a well posted magician, for THIS matter.

              Once you DO see how it was done, you will see that all I have said about this is 100% CORRECT.
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              • Profile picture of the author peterj
                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                Follow the blueprint I have laid out, and you will FOR YOURSELF that it was accomplished otherwise.

                If you don't explore that, then you are a captive + not free.
                Worse than that, you are a WILLING captive.

                -- TW
                Depends on your definition of free. As I said I'm not really interested in figuring it out.

                All that would prove is that there is at least two ways to skin that particular horse or bike.
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                • Profile picture of the author perryny
                  Originally Posted by peterj View Post

                  All that would prove is that there is at least two ways to skin that particular horse or bike.
                  Does it?

                  I'm sure there are hundreds of magicians out there who can show you exactly how to swap the guy's "BMX Bicycle" note in the envelope for one that says "Leather Jacket".

                  But is there anyone who can PROVE they can make a guy say "BMX Bike" out of nowhere, by using NLP or some other mental manipulation? Maybe, but I'm personally not so sure.

                  I know there's a ton of people who believe John Edwards and "The Long Island Medium" can speak to dead people. I think it's nonsense.

                  So why would I believe this guy DB (who I never heard of before this thread) could mentally manipulate people when the performance is the center of a magic trick I've seen dozens of times before?

                  And if he can't actually do it, why should I believe anyone can?
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                    Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                    Does it?

                    I'm sure there are hundreds of magicians out there who can show you exactly how to swap the guy's "BMX Bicycle" note in the envelope for one that says "Leather Jacket".

                    But is there anyone who can PROVE they can make a guy say "BMX Bike" out of nowhere, by using NLP or some other mental manipulation? Maybe, but I'm personally not so sure.
                    Of course not!

                    DB seems to do "amazing things" using "super subtle ninja people-manipulating skills" because that's NOT how he's accomplishing these things!

                    So NO ONE can do these same things using the techniques he SAYS he's using, cuz he's not really using those techniques.

                    Analogy: "You can build a simple lean-to as a shelter if you're camping, using only a pocket knife. I am SO GOOD AT THIS, that I built a 14-unit APARTMENT BUILDING with running water + electricity, using only a pocket knife -- AMAZING, right?!? -- oh wait, pay no attention to the team of 112 construction workers, and the bulldozers + backhoes + cement trucks behind that curtain..."

                    Absolute (almost laughable) baloney.

                    -- TW

                    "He TELEPORTED himself from point A to point B in mere MINUTES. Yes I know there's a subway (train) station at both points, so he COULD have just taken the subway -- but I'm SURE he did it by teleportation! I'm SURE he did! He SAID he did!"
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by peterj View Post

                  Depends on your definition of free. As I said I'm not really interested in figuring it out.

                  All that would prove is that there is at least two ways to skin that particular horse or bike.
                  Please show me someone accomplishing something like that using "real" NLP techniques, please.
                  (please edit out the "chem trails" videos first)

                  POST YOUR "BESTEST" EXAMPLE OF THE USE OF NLP (or any other ninja people-influencing techniques) in video form PLEASE. let's see how it compares to what is being "displayed" by DB in his stunts. If this bmx stunt (or any other DB stunt) CAN be done using the techniques he CLAIMS to be using, then SURELY THERE MUST BE OTHER PRACTITIONERS OF THESE TECHNIQUES THAT CAN PRODUCE THE SAME (OR BETTER) DRAMATIC RESULTS, RIIIIGHT???

                  Ok -- where are they? Where are the videos of them? SURELY there must be DOZENS OF VIDEOS OUT THERE, right? There must be MANY practitioners who can at least EQUAL what DB is *apparently* doing!!

                  No?

                  Post links to the videos here, please! In the entire interwebs, there must be AT LEAST 3 recorded examples of what you claim is "totally DOABLE," right??????

                  Prediction: NO TAKERS.

                  -- TW
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                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                  Originally Posted by peterj View Post

                  Depends on your definition of free. As I said I'm not really interested in figuring it out.

                  All that would prove is that there is at least two ways to skin that particular horse or bike.
                  So true

                  I conclude that Derren Brown has many ways at his disposal to achieve his stunts. He is adept at straight pick a card conjuring tricks and sleight of hand, persuasive methods of talking, reinforcement, distraction, psychology, showmanship, memory, light hypnotism, reading body language and voice inflection. Put this together and you can mess with peoples minds, memory, thought processes and perceptions.

                  He has no mental or psychic powers and does not claim too.. On the other hand, what he does needs more study and practice than just a straight stage magician with props and sleight of hand could do and he does it to great effect. he may use various methods at different times.

                  These are my current musings on the man and until someone comes up and gives solid answers or alternatives that throws this out then I will continue to entertain them as a possibility without bringing in the "belief" word.

                  I now bow out of this thread.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    So true

                    I conclude that Derren Brown has many ways at his disposal to achieve his stunts. He is adept at straight pick a card conjuring tricks and sleight of hand, persuasive methods of talking, reinforcement, distraction, psychology, showmanship, memory, light hypnotism, reading body language and voice inflection. Put this together and you can mess with peoples minds, memory, thought processes and perceptions.

                    He has no mental or psychic powers and does not claim too.. On the other hand, what he does needs more study and practice than just a straight stage magician with props and sleight of hand could do and he does it to great effect. he may use various methods at different times.

                    These are my current musings on the man and until someone comes up and gives solid answers or alternatives that throws this out then I will continue to entertain them as a possibility without bringing in the "belief" word.

                    I now bow out of this thread.
                    Wouldn't do his own due diligence -- even though I gave him a clear STEP-BY-STEP blueprint, so he could find the truth for himself. Must conclude: he doesn't WANT to see the truth.

                    Oh well.

                    -- TW
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                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    These are my current musings on the man and until someone comes up and gives solid answers or alternatives that throws this out then I will continue to entertain them as a possibility without bringing in the "belief" word.
                    I know nothing about Derren Brown - maybe he can control minds. But to continue to believe or even support the possibility that mentalism of any kind was used in the BMX trick is silly.

                    Look at the trick.

                    The guy writes "BMX Bike" on a piece of paper. It goes in an envelope, and the envelope is sealed (by who? does it matter? I don't know) and the guy writes his name and date on the envelope.

                    After a few distracted minutes, he turns around and "poof", a BMX Bike!

                    The guy rips open the envelope and his BMX note has been replaced by one that says "Leather Jacket".

                    That's it. That's the trick.

                    So, if we can all agree that this trick can easily be done (by any skilled magician), then Derren Brown is clearly doing all the hand holding and shoulder tapping and "B" and "M" and "X" letter dropping strictly for show and distraction - and to convince you the audience, he's using NLP or other mind control techniques.

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                    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                      I know nothing about Derren Brown - maybe he can control minds, but to continue to believe or even support the possibility that mentalism of any kind was used in the BMX trick is silly.

                      Look at the trick.

                      The guy writes "BMX Bike" on a piece of paper. It goes in an envelope, and the envelope is sealed (by who? does it matter? I don't know) and the guy writes his name and date on the envelope.

                      After a few distracted minutes, he turns around and "poof", a BMX Bike!

                      The guy rips open the envelope and his BMX note has been replaced by one that says "Leather Jacket".

                      That's it. That's the trick.

                      So, if we can all agree that this trick can easily be done (by any skilled magician), then Derren Brown is clearly doing all the hand holding and shoulder tapping and "B" and "M" and "X" letter dropping strictly for show and distraction - and to convince you the audience, he's using NLP or other mind control techniques.

                      TNT Signed Card in Envelope - YouTube
                      Congrat's -- you are now that much closer to NOT being the guy holding the clipboard, dutifully counting his fellow citizens, as they are loaded into the cattle cars!

                      George Orwell would be proud of you!

                      -- TW

                      PS: People who doubt what they should believe, and believe what they should doubt, when you EXTRAPOLATE the ramifications, you end up at a very scary place! In a JURY BOX -- as a VOTER, etc. -- Then this s--t gets SCARY in a hurry!

                      PPS: --- starting at 1:12 ---- https://youtu.be/DWopGsFLtgQ?t=1m12s
                      Basic, basic stuff in the magic world.
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                      I know nothing about Derren Brown - maybe he can control minds. But to continue to believe or even support the possibility that mentalism of any kind was used in the BMX trick is silly.

                      Look at the trick.

                      The guy writes "BMX Bike" on a piece of paper. It goes in an envelope, and the envelope is sealed (by who? does it matter? I don't know) and the guy writes his name and date on the envelope.

                      After a few distracted minutes, he turns around and "poof", a BMX Bike!

                      The guy rips open the envelope and his BMX note has been replaced by one that says "Leather Jacket".

                      That's it. That's the trick.

                      So, if we can all agree that this trick can easily be done (by any skilled magician), then Derren Brown is clearly doing all the hand holding and shoulder tapping and "B" and "M" and "X" letter dropping strictly for show and distraction - and to convince you the audience, he's using NLP or other mind control techniques.

                      TNT Signed Card in Envelope - YouTube
                      First scenario: Pegg writes down BMX Red bike on a piece of paper and it goes into an envelope. Brown uses a straight conjuring trick to get wind of whats in the envelope and a bike is placed in the crate. Brown replaces whats in the envelope with the words, leather jacket.

                      What are you missing though? At the end, Pegg opens it and it says leather jacket. Pegg doubts himself and what he originally wrote presented with the evidence of leather jacket in his own handwriting. What we don't see is the events of leading up to the video.

                      Did Brown previously plant the idea that Pegg would want a red bike in his mind so he would write it on the paper and then replace it, Pegg has no use for the bike, it's too small for him. Why did he write something like that on the paper in the first place. Did Pegg actually write leather jacket in the first place and Brown replaced his memory of writing that with writing that he wanted the bike.

                      There are too many variables here to be 100 percent sure of what went on.

                      I couple that with what Brown did in the jewelry store and fishmongers. The jury is still out A clever manipulator methinks, and not just straight conjuring tricks.
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                      • Profile picture of the author perryny
                        If this trick could be easily performed by ANY skilled magician, including Brown, without the use of mentalism, then why on earth would he do the same trick using mentalism?

                        If you were his buddy magician and he told you, "No dude, I know you can switch the envelope, but that's not what I'm doing here. I'm really messing with his head." You would call BS. You'd do the same trick the same way with all the body tapping and all and then say, "Hey! Look at that. I'm an NLP Master too!"

                        If he really could control the subjects thoughts, wouldn't he come up with a better way to demonstrate it?

                        And as far as the fishmonger goes... good trick, but there's no way the jeweler was counting white paper thinking it was $4500 in cash. I don't know how he did it, but I'm not buying mind control.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                          People who doubt what they should believe, and believe what they should doubt, when you EXTRAPOLATE the ramifications, you end up at a very scary place! In a JURY BOX -- as a VOTER, etc. -- Then this s--t gets SCARY in a hurry!
                          Why do you have to be "right"? Why do others have to tell you "you are right'?

                          Who gives a flying fig? Sometimes it's fun to watch something you don't quite understand - even when you know the magic is a trick - and just enjoy it...without some loudmouth in the seat behind you shouting "I know what he did - I know what he did"...
                          Signature
                          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

                          I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            Why do you have to be "right"? Why do others have to tell you "you are right'?

                            Who gives a flying fig? Sometimes it's fun to watch something you don't quite understand - even when you know the magic is a trick - and just enjoy it...without some loudmouth in the seat behind you shouting "I know what he did - I know what he did"...
                            That's not what happened here. This is a discussion between people who WANT to find out what actually happened. The discussion is happening here, "in private." Not in a way that will "spoil" the show for others who just want to sit back + enjoy.

                            You must remember, I am a performer -- so I certainly do not appreciate the real life "loudmouths" you're talking about -- and would never become one!

                            -- TW
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            Why do you have to be "right"? Why do others have to tell you "you are right'?

                            Who gives a flying fig? Sometimes it's fun to watch something you don't quite understand - even when you know the magic is a trick - and just enjoy it...without some loudmouth in the seat behind you shouting "I know what he did - I know what he did"...
                            In future, when you click on a thread TITLED, "Phenomenal Magic Trick. Anyone Know How He Did It?", please be advised that the thread may contain some discussion on "How He Did It."

                            -- TW
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                            • Profile picture of the author HN
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                              In future, when you click on a thread TITLED, "Phenomenal Magic Trick. Anyone Know How He Did It?", please be advised that the thread may contain some discussion on "How He Did It."
                              LOL.

                              You have invested a lot of time and emotions into this thread. This topic must be very important to you. It also amuses me when I read comments for similar videos. There was a guy who solved Rubik's cube blindfolded on Ukraine Got Talent show. There were mostly just two types of comments
                              1. The guy is genius
                              2. The video is fake
                              It didn't occur to anyone that this is actually very easy and can be done by anyone and there are even world championships for solving Rubik's cube blindfolded. Took me a few hours to learn the process. I know, I am slow. I mean, not to figure out how it's done, but how to solve it blindfolded myself. Well, I know, still slow.

                              Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                              So you're saying DB ISN'T using secret, super subtle ninja people-influencing tricks and tactics that NO ONE else in the world can duplicate?!?

                              I dunno -- there are plenty of people in this thread who would disagree with you.

                              -- TW
                              Of course there are and have been people who've done this.

                              Perhaps DB got inspiration from the Wolf Messing story

                              Scroll to 2:20, for some reason I can't embed the vid at current time
                              watch?v=OSlu7VQbObU&t=139

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                      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                        First scenario: Pegg writes down BMX Red bike on a piece of paper and it goes into an envelope. Brown uses a straight conjuring trick to get wind of whats in the envelope and a bike is placed in the crate. Brown replaces whats in the envelope with the words, leather jacket.

                        What are you missing though? At the end, Pegg opens it and it says leather jacket. Pegg doubts himself and what he originally wrote presented with the evidence of leather jacket in his own handwriting. What we don't see is the events of leading up to the video.

                        Did Brown previously plant the idea that Pegg would want a red bike in his mind so he would write it on the paper and then replace it, Pegg has no use for the bike, it's too small for him. Why did he write something like that on the paper in the first place. Did Pegg actually write leather jacket in the first place and Brown replaced his memory of writing that with writing that he wanted the bike.

                        There are too many variables here to be 100 percent sure of what went on.

                        I couple that with what Brown did in the jewelry store and fishmongers. The jury is still out A clever manipulator methinks, and not just straight conjuring tricks.
                        But... but... I thought... you... bowed out... of the... thread.

                        -- TW


                        PS: This post of yours shows (to all) that you are clinging to the notion of a bubble of a sliver of a hope,
                        directly in the face of the plain-to-see, revealed actual evidence. Pure clipboard holder / cattle car material, as far as I can tell.
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                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                          Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                          But... but... I thought... you... bowed out... of the... thread.

                          -- TW


                          PS: This post of yours shows (to all) that you are clinging to the notion of a bubble of a sliver of a hope,
                          directly in the face of the plain-to-see, revealed actual evidence. Pure clipboard holder / cattle car material, as far as I can tell.
                          Here is an audiobook from Derren Brown telling of his experiences as a STAGE HYPNOTIST and a detailed discourse on the verbiage used in doing it. Oh look, he does it. Perhaps you may now admit that there is a little more to him than a stage conjurer.

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                          • Profile picture of the author peterj
                            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                            Please show me someone accomplishing something like that using "real" NLP techniques, please.
                            (please edit out the "chem trails" videos first)

                            POST YOUR "BESTEST" EXAMPLE OF THE USE OF NLP (or any other ninja people-influencing techniques) in video form PLEASE. let's see how it compares to what is being "displayed" by DB in his stunts. If this bmx stunt (or any other DB stunt) CAN be done using the techniques he CLAIMS to be using, then SURELY THERE MUST BE OTHER PRACTITIONERS OF THESE TECHNIQUES THAT CAN PRODUCE THE SAME (OR BETTER) DRAMATIC RESULTS, RIIIIGHT???

                            Ok -- where are they? Where are the videos of them? SURELY there must be DOZENS OF VIDEOS OUT THERE, right? There must be MANY practitioners who can at least EQUAL what DB is *apparently* doing!!

                            No?

                            Post links to the videos here, please! In the entire interwebs, there must be AT LEAST 3 recorded examples of what you claim is "totally DOABLE," right??????

                            Prediction: NO TAKERS.

                            -- TW
                            First off, in the same way that I have no interest in figuring out how he did it I also have no interest in proving to you that it can be done using NLP or indeed proving anything to anyone on any subject.

                            Might I suggest you heed your own advice and do your homework. Investigate NLP (and the tools it uses), Bandler and Grinder, Milton Erickson, Hypnosis (direct & indirect) then put it into practise and see what works.

                            The way you bandy the words 'Truth' and 'Ignorance' around makes you sound a bit like a religious zealot. As I stated in an earlier post, "unless you have it straight from the horses mouth", then you don't 'know' the truth.

                            In my original post I said it was feasible that he did it with NLP, I didn't say that 'is' how he did it and yet you seem to have a god given certainty that you know the truth.

                            You seem a bit to vehement in your 'belief' that you are right to be giving lessons in critical thinking to anyone.
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                            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                              Originally Posted by peterj View Post

                              First off, in the same way that I have no interest in figuring out how he did it I also have no interest in proving to you that it can be done using NLP or indeed proving anything to anyone on any subject.

                              Might I suggest you heed your own advice and do your homework. Investigate NLP (and the tools it uses), Bandler and Grinder, Milton Erickson, Hypnosis (direct & indirect) then put it into practise and see what works.

                              The way you bandy the words 'Truth' and 'Ignorance' around makes you sound a bit like a religious zealot. As I stated in an earlier post, "unless you have it straight from the horses mouth", then you don't 'know' the truth.

                              In my original post I said it was feasible that he did it with NLP, I didn't say that 'is' how he did it and yet you seem to have a god given certainty that you know the truth.

                              You seem a bit to vehement in your 'belief' that you are right to be giving lessons in critical thinking to anyone.
                              I have shown conclusively that this stunt was done without any "NLP" or other such claims.

                              Please show me proof that it WAS accomplished using such "ninja" techniques.
                              OR, show my a few videos showing how SIMILAR results can be obtained using NLP, etc.

                              Again, Prediction: can't be done.*

                              -- T "Still Waiting" W

                              PS: You may also be interested to read the interview with DB (in another post in this thread), where DB says he does NOT use NLP, and he basically denounces it. Maybe your should send your little reading list to DB himself!

                              * The reason such videos cannot be shared here (or anywhere), is because they don't exist, because no one can produce DRAMATIC results like that, using NLP, etc. -- because HE, HIMSELF (DB) wasn't using those methods either, in the first place!

                              Again, he is using age-old conjuring tricks, and PASSING IT OFF as pseudo-science! And you are (merely) BUYING into his pseudo-scientific "explanation(s)!"
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                              • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                The Fishmonger and the Jeweler...

                                The white paper is there to conceal the cash from us, the audience. It's used as an envelope of sorts.

                                When handing over $4500 in cash, if I'm the jeweler, it doesn't seem so crazy to me that the customer is being protective and concealing his cash from the public by covering it in blank paper.

                                Then the customer says, "Here, let me take the paper back..." and that's when the switch happens.

                                What do you think? Sound like I'm on the right track with this one? (Tim, you don't have to reply if it means breaking the code.)
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                                • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                  With the fishmonger, there doesn't even need to be a switch.

                                  He gives the guy a few bucks between two sheets of paper, and gets his change.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    Yep. That's totally it. I'm calling it.

                                    With the fishmonger, it's one video shot. He give the fishmonger the money between blank paper and gets his change.

                                    With the jeweler, he gives the jeweler the money between paper, we see the jeweler look at the money between the paper, we then cut to a close-up of the paper (with a voice over of "take it, take it") and then we cut away to, "thanks, have a nice day."

                                    What a fast transaction.

                                    I've bought a diamond ring on 47th st. It's not a fast transaction. If it were this fast, I guarantee the jeweler would be very suspicious.*

                                    Unless using careful video editing is against the rules, I think I figured this one out.

                                    Feels good.

                                    Now how the hell does Jonathan Goodwin take a baseball bat across the back?



                                    * and then upon discovering he'd been ripped off for $4500, the jeweler would be on the phone to the police while his daughter and two employees would be off in every direction hunting for the con-man / thief. Not, "hmmm... did I just get robbed? Now, where'd that fella go?"
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                                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                  The Fishmonger and the Jeweler...

                                  The white paper is there to conceal the cash from us, the audience. It's used as an envelope of sorts.

                                  When handing over $4500 in cash, if I'm the jeweler, it doesn't seem so crazy to me that the customer is being protective and concealing his cash from the public by covering it in blank paper.

                                  Then the customer says, "Here, let me take the paper back..." and that's when the switch happens.

                                  What do you think? Sound like I'm on the right track with this one? (Tim, you don't have to reply if it means breaking the code.)
                                  So you're saying DB ISN'T using secret, super subtle ninja people-influencing tricks and tactics that NO ONE else in the world can duplicate?!?

                                  I dunno -- there are plenty of people in this thread who would disagree with you.

                                  -- TW
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                  The Fishmonger and the Jeweler...

                                  The white paper is there to conceal the cash from us, the audience. It's used as an envelope of sorts.

                                  When handing over $4500 in cash, if I'm the jeweler, it doesn't seem so crazy to me that the customer is being protective and concealing his cash from the public by covering it in blank paper.

                                  Then the customer says, "Here, let me take the paper back..." and that's when the switch happens.

                                  What do you think? Sound like I'm on the right track with this one? (Tim, you don't have to reply if it means breaking the code.)
                                  Possibly the answer. It would certainly fit the video.

                                  A couple things I hate about TV specials featuring a magician are;
                                  They can edit the film any way they want. And it's very possible that the resolution is obvious, without the editing.
                                  They can make unlimited attempts. And just not include all the failures.

                                  You're right, nobody buys a $4,500 piece of jewelry like that. And the store owner may have come outside for an entirely different reason, than we thought, for example, to give back extra money.

                                  There may have been no switch at all.
                                  --------------

                                  The guy getting hit with a baseball bat, a punch, and a kick.

                                  I do know how this was done. The small group was actors.

                                  After a decade of Kung Fu training, I could easily take a punch like that, and the kick (It was on the meaty part of the thigh), and I know a few guys who could take a baseball bat hit like that. (Not me)

                                  It has nothing to do with "The power of the mind", I knew that going in. It's isn't his ability to take pain.
                                  The guys hitting him, were simply playing along.

                                  Also, I've seen guys get hit with real baseball bats, across the thigh, back, chest...the bat bounces back, it doesn't follow through. Real force like that would at least make the guy step forward, with his head snapping back.

                                  It may have been a flexible lightweight bat, made just for this type of demonstration.

                                  The punch to the stomach was held back. A little of the kick went through.

                                  It was acting. The fact that it looked like it was in a gym, the girl's reactions, the exchange of money, the story about the bat (I liked that part), all to create our reality.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author perryny
                                    I don't know what the "rules" are, but I would think using actors for a performance like the one with the baseball bat would totally be cheating.

                                    I originally saw this when it was televised, and ***I believe*** they said they were all actual MMA fighters (not sure if it's included in the posted clip.)

                                    What isn't included in the clip is the follow-up to the bat across the back. Goodwin says, "My turn?" to the big guy with the bat.

                                    They go into the center of the ring, they face each other about a foot or two apart. They take a fighter's stance and Goodwin holds up his right hand with two pointed fingers at the mma guy's chest. He says, "Ready?". Then from about two inches away (real close), he strikes and the mma guy crumples to the floor motionless. Paramedics come in and revive him, and one emt guy says to the camera, "he was most definitely out cold."

                                    If they are lying and in on the act (holding back, using a fake bat, playing dead), then who's to say DB didn't actually guess the name of the dog from the girl in the balcony? Was she in on it and just agreeing to whatever name DB says?

                                    I'd like to think that camera tricks and acting when it comes to the punchline are against the rules and overall frowned upon by the magician community (and I would think a televised performer would definitely NOT want to break the rules and become a joke to his community.)

                                    -Rob Perry
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post


                                      They go into the center of the ring, they face each other about a foot or two apart. They take a fighter's stance and Goodwin holds up his right hand with two pointed fingers at the mma guy's chest. He says, "Ready?". Then from about two inches away (real close), he strikes and the mma guy crumples to the floor motionless. Paramedics come in and revive him, and one emt guy says to the camera, "he was most definitely out cold."
                                      He wasn't out cold. A strike like that could conceivably knock someone out...but Goodwin just poked him, there was no follow through..no penetration. It was acting. The way he explained it, (The kickback of a rifle, concentrating the energy) is all true. But it is just window dressing to make what he does seem more real.

                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      If they are lying and in on the act (holding back, using a fake bat, playing dead), then who's to say DB didn't actually guess the name of the dog from the girl in the balcony? Was she in on it and just agreeing to whatever name DB says?
                                      The girl in the balcony, at some point, said, out loud...the names of her dogs. Probably in the line, waiting to get in. Several people in the line were working for the act. There was no guessing. What was impressive, was the list of "qualifying questions" that were asked, to get her to remain standing...as though it were random chance. She was as mystified as anyone.

                                      Originally Posted by perryny View Post

                                      I'd like to think that camera tricks and acting when it comes to the punchline are against the rules and overall frowned upon by the magician community (and I would think a televised performer would definitely NOT want to break the rules and become a joke to his community.)

                                      -Rob Perry
                                      Nope. Their job is to entertain and fool the audience. Their entire vocation is trickery. I've watched several Street Magic videos, and acts like Chris Angels. At least half of the tricks were performed with film editing, and camera tricks. Many were aided dramatically, by editing out the one part, where attention was distracted...but you can't distract a camera....so they edit the part out. Sometimes the volunteers are part of the act. Sometimes an entire audience is part of the act (making the statue of liberty disappear). I've seen a levitation trick, where it was filmed live, and then the conclusion was added, to make it look like the guy was levitating 6 or 8 feet. The wench was off camera. Is it cheating? Maybe. Is it cheating when special effects are in a movie? Stunt doubles? safety harnesses?
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                        Their job is to entertain...
                                        I always found Melinda to be the most "entertaining" magician for some reason...


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                                      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        I've watched several Street Magic videos, and acts like Chris Angels. At least half of the tricks were performed with film editing, and camera tricks. Many were aided dramatically, by editing out the one part, where attention was distracted...but you can't distract a camera....so they edit the part out. Sometimes the volunteers are part of the act. Sometimes an entire audience is part of the act (making the statue of liberty disappear). I've seen a levitation trick, where it was filmed live, and then the conclusion was added, to make it look like the guy was levitating 6 or 8 feet. The wench was off camera. Is it cheating? Maybe. Is it cheating when special effects are in a movie? Stunt doubles? safety harnesses?
                                        I was looking over the thread (thank goodness the "crop circle" people have left the building!) -- and I saw this part by Claude...

                                        Gotta take a little issue with what you said (above). A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. To figure out some of these tricks, it's easy to just *sluff off* the explanation you come up with as the real one, even though it is not. Like just assuming "its a camera trick," when it really isn't.

                                        That's what set this whole thing off -- that DB believer seeing the original video you posted with the CardToon segment. -- He just calmly, almost off-handedly said -- oh that's EASY to solve.... He just NLP'd the panel to say that card, Derren Brown style -- which is actually NOT REALLY POSSIBLE, and a FANTASY solution. A LAZY solution. This is MORE fallout from DBs LIES + BULLCRAP. People who believe the bullcrap think, incorrectly, that it's easy, or even POSSIBLE for people to be "mind-influenced" in that way.

                                        Here's exactly what he said (post # 6)...

                                        "The card trick could have failed but could only be done by verbal manipulation and that somehow geared Simon to choose that very card.

                                        Darren Brown's very good at that."

                                        He was 100% fine with typing that as (what he obviously considered to be) a totally satisfactory "solution."But we now see that was actually a lazy, TOTALLY INCORRECT "solution."

                                        What caught my eye in this case is you sluffing off the Statue of Liberty illusion which was actually QUITE cleverly conceived, and did NOT require any stooges!
                                        The audience was NOT in on it! The cameras WERE recording what you actually WOULD have seen if you WERE there!

                                        I'm not gonna reveal how it was done -- but I CAN say with 100% VERACITY, a statement which will seem totally FALSE, but is actually totally TRUE...

                                        When that curtain was lowered, the Statue of Liberty truly was NOT THERE.

                                        The audience that was there did NOT consist of stooges, and they had NO IDEA how it was done
                                        -- and you would not have either, if you were there.

                                        Anyhow, I'm just typing all this to say, sometimes if you just come up with a knee jerk, "lazy" solution, you are doing the creators of the illusion a disservice!

                                        A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, sometimes.

                                        THAT's why it's so important to keep the magi's honor of not "cheating."
                                        If they know were not "cheating," then it makes it harder for people to figure out the real methods. They can't just say (basically), oh that's just done with smoke and mirrors, and leave it at that.

                                        Hope that makes sense.

                                        -- TW
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                              • Profile picture of the author peterj
                                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                                I have shown conclusively that this stunt was done without any "NLP" or other such claims.

                                Please show me proof that it WAS accomplished using such "ninja" techniques.
                                OR, show my a few videos showing how SIMILAR results can be obtained using NLP, etc.

                                Again, Prediction: can't be done.*

                                -- T "Still Waiting" W

                                PS: You may also be interested to read the interview with DB (in another post in this thread), where DB says he does NOT use NLP, and he basically denounces it. Maybe your should send your little reading list to DB himself!

                                * The reason such videos cannot be shared here (or anywhere), is because they don't exist, because no one can produce DRAMATIC results like that, using NLP, etc. -- because HE, HIMSELF (DB) wasn't using those methods either, in the first place!

                                Again, he is using age-old conjuring tricks, and PASSING IT OFF as pseudo-science! And you are (merely) BUYING into his pseudo-scientific "explanation(s)!"
                                Sorry, still not interested in proving it.

                                You and a few others seem to have a couple of misconceptions.

                                1. That NLP is some sort of magical power thingy

                                2. That 'man' cannot be influenced against his will or without his knowledge of what is occurring.

                                You want proof. I say investigate experientially instead of standing back with supposed scientific/critical thinking saying something is nonsense or not possible without actually trying it.

                                The only thing you may have proven conclusively is that the trick can be performed in the manner you say it is. Something approaching conclusive proof would be getting DB to put a video on you tube confirming this is how he did it (assuming he wouldn't lie).
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      • Profile picture of the author perryny
        I and the family love watching this guy, "Dangerman, Jonathan Goodwin"...


        His whole act revolves around "mental focus", mind over matter. In one of his TV series, instead of focusing on the performance of the stunts themselves, the segments focus on how he prepares for the stunts - how he increases his tolerance for pain, how he builds his strength for specific stunts, etc.

        But while watching several of his stunts, I couldn't help but think that it's just a "trick" and he's misdirecting us by having us believe he's built up an amazing skill.

        This whole thing with DB having most folks believing he's got incredible NLP skills (just finished googling him, and the consensus is... he can control your mind!!!), it's making me wonder if Dangerman is doing something similar, but with feats of strength as opposed to mind control.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by perryny View Post

          I and the family love watching this guy, "Dangerman, Jonathan Goodwin"...

          Guys takes a baseball bat swing to the back - YouTube

          His whole act revolves around "mental focus", mind over matter. In one of his TV series, instead of focusing on the performance of the stunts themselves, the segments focus on how he prepares for the stunts - how he increases his tolerance for pain, how he builds his strength for specific stunts, etc.

          But while watching several of his stunts, I couldn't help but think that it's just a "trick" and he's misdirecting us by having us believe he's built up an amazing skill.

          This whole thing with DB having most folks believing he's got incredible NLP skills (just finished googling him, and the consensus is... he can control your mind!!!), it's making me wonder if Dangerman is doing something similar, but with feats of strength as opposed to mind control.
          Not sure about the pain guy -- I'll look at the video -- but on that topic, I gotta admit that *I* am operating from a colossal cavern of ignorance!

          Anyhow, CONGRATs on seeing "the light" about the DB bmx video!

          It was easy to follow my little blueprint, right?

          First step -- get rid of the HORSE MANURE!

          -- TW
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi perryny,

          Fascinating thread. I just spent an hour or two reading much of it and watching some of the videos. I had a comment on this one from back on page two -

          Originally Posted by perryny View Post

          I and the family love watching this guy, "Dangerman, Jonathan Goodwin"...

          Guys takes a baseball bat swing to the back - YouTube

          His whole act revolves around "mental focus", mind over matter. In one of his TV series, instead of focusing on the performance of the stunts themselves, the segments focus on how he prepares for the stunts - how he increases his tolerance for pain, how he builds his strength for specific stunts, etc.

          But while watching several of his stunts, I couldn't help but think that it's just a "trick" and he's misdirecting us by having us believe he's built up an amazing skill.

          This whole thing with DB having most folks believing he's got incredible NLP skills (just finished googling him, and the consensus is... he can control your mind!!!), it's making me wonder if Dangerman is doing something similar, but with feats of strength as opposed to mind control.
          A few things stood out for me on that video (and the one where he 'knocks him out'). He seems to be cleverly using just the right kind of digital sound effects to accompany the blows, but if you listen to them a few times, you might agree with me that they sound fake (exaggerated) and designed to give the impression of an impact which is a lot more violent than it actually is. Try muting the sound and watching the impact to experience how much difference the sound makes and how exaggerated it is.

          I noticed immediately with the stomach punch that right after the punch, his ha