Bruce ... err I mean Caitlin ... Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair!

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Some good photoshop going on here.

  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    wtf, man.

    Hopefully "she'll" finally find happiness.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I can't wait to see who is/who'll be the lucky man.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I can't wait to see who is/who'll be the lucky man.
      The interesting thing is that she/he is not attracted to men. Does that make her a lesbian?
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        The interesting thing is that she/he is not attracted to men. Does that make her a lesbian?
        Wow.

        If she's/he's interested in women alone - that would make her a lesbian as far as I understand.


        Did he/she actually get a sex change?
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Wow.

          If she's/he's interested in women alone - that would make her a lesbian as far as I understand.

          Did he/she actually get a sex change?
          Nope ... not yet. She really has some muscular looking arms, doesn't she? Whatever she wants to be, I hope it will bring her happiness. She won't appear as Bruce again now, so this is it.

          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          The interesting thing is that she/he is not attracted to men. Does that make her a lesbian?
          Interesting. I can say that I don't understand why a man who is not attracted to men, would want to become a woman who is not attracted to men, but whatever floats her boat.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            They worked the air brushes overtime on that one!

            Does anyone believe that's how Jenner looks in real life???

            I don't care what he/she/it does - whatever makes him happy is fine with me. However, I don't understand why anyone except transgender people would be interested in knowing more about his sex change.

            When a news show played a clip from a Jenner interview a couple weeks ago, I almost gagged. The "reporter" was saying how "courageous" Jenner was.... Our military men and woman are courageous - cutting off your Johnson to look feminine is as self-centered as it gets.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              They worked the air brushes overtime on that one!

              Does anyone believe that's how Jenner looks in real life???

              I don't care what he/she/it does - whatever makes him happy is fine with me. However, I don't understand why anyone except transgender people would be interested in knowing more about his sex change.

              When a news show played a clip from a Jenner interview a couple weeks ago, I almost gagged. The "reporter" was saying how "courageous" Jenner was.... Our military men and woman are courageous - cutting off your Johnson to look feminine is as self-centered as it gets.
              Why would anyone give a crap about knowing anything at all about any of the Kardashians (or how fat Kim K's ass is), or the Duck Dynasty bunch, or the adventures of the obese Honey Boo Boo clan or the always fake, untalented Paris Hilton? This is more interesting to me than any of the above, although I wouldn't waste any time watching the series or even the interviews.

              As for courage ... first off, he didn't cut off his Johnson. He has all of his male equipment in tact and it is courageous to make a change in your life that is bound to result in criticism, ridicule and negativity. It would have been much easier to have just been an unhappy man who always believed he should have been a woman. Transgenders are one of the most discriminated against classes of people in the US. You don't have to go fight a war and kill the enemy to be brave. There are a lot of other things in life that require courage.

              I'm happy that people in the US are more enlightened (most) and gay men and women aren't hidden away in "closets" as much as they used to be and people with a sexual identity "problem" are less afraid to be who they want to be.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              They worked the air brushes overtime on that one!

              Does anyone believe that's how Jenner looks in real life???
              Who knows, it is ASTOUNDING what they can do, and a bit scary. You don't know who or what anyone is any more. They even shave the larynx and deal with the vocal chords to make the appearance and sound more feminine. And they actually use plastic in places. USUALLY the term plastic surgery refers only to the malleability.

              I don't care what he/she/it does - whatever makes him happy is fine with me. However, I don't understand why anyone except transgender people would be interested in knowing more about his sex change.
              Well, I can understand the curiosity. And you know it really isn't a sex change. A man can't really be a woman, and a woman can't be a man, and who knows how successful even any feelings are. Ironically, about the only things really real will be the breasts since that is an undeveloped female sex characteristic in men.

              When a news show played a clip from a Jenner interview a couple weeks ago, I almost gagged. The "reporter" was saying how "courageous" Jenner was.... Our military men and woman are courageous - cutting off your Johnson to look feminine is as self-centered as it gets.
              Yeah, courage and hero are two of MANY words that they are trying to change.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              They worked the air brushes overtime on that one!

              Does anyone believe that's how Jenner looks in real life???

              I don't care what he/she/it does - whatever makes him happy is fine with me. However, I don't understand why anyone except transgender people would be interested in knowing more about his sex change.

              When a news show played a clip from a Jenner interview a couple weeks ago, I almost gagged. The "reporter" was saying how "courageous" Jenner was.... Our military men and woman are courageous - cutting off your Johnson to look feminine is as self-centered as it gets.
              I don't consider it self centered. She obviously felt unhappy the way he was. And for some reason, thought this would be better.

              Courage? No.

              It's beyond my understanding though. And, to be honest, I can't look at the photo without getting a little queasy. No idea why.
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            • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Our military men and woman are courageous - cutting off your Johnson to look feminine is as self-centered as it gets.
              As others have said whatever makes her happy.

              But as a former military man, Kay, I salute you for having the "courage" to say that. The word courage is tossed around so much now it's meaning is quickly getting diluted.

              Maybe we should have levels of courage as a description now. Perhaps a
              Level 1 Courage.
              Level 2 Courage
              Level 3, etc.

              I sometimes shake my head at what people term as courageous ...and shake my head the other way at courageous acts (losing a limb to save another person) people forget about in 2 days or 2 minutes.
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                As others have said whatever makes her happy.

                But as a former military man, Kay, I salute you for having the "courage" to say that. The word courage is tossed around so much now it's meaning is quickly getting diluted.

                Maybe we should have levels of courage as a description now. Perhaps a
                Level 1 Courage.
                Level 2 Courage
                Level 3, etc.

                I sometimes shake my head at what people term as courageous ...and shake my head the other way at courageous acts (losing a limb to save another person) people forget about in 2 days or 2 minutes.
                Not so sure, Roy.

                Courage is subjective. I have met plenty of Military people who were out and out cowards. Just using the System to benefit their own selves.

                And of course met plenty of Military folks who were true heroes as well.


                Changing ones identity to match their true selves even though they will risk the chance of being ridiculed and potentially physically harmed is Courage in my book.

                P.S. Cutting one's penis off may not be Courageous per say but it sure takes a lot of guts and bravery, to the degree which I will never be able to comprehend
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              • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                As others have said whatever makes her happy.

                But as a former military man, Kay, I salute you for having the "courage" to say that. The word courage is tossed around so much now it's meaning is quickly getting diluted.

                Maybe we should have levels of courage as a description now. Perhaps a
                Level 1 Courage.
                Level 2 Courage
                Level 3, etc.

                I sometimes shake my head at what people term as courageous ...and shake my head the other way at courageous acts (losing a limb to save another person) people forget about in 2 days or 2 minutes.
                As a veteran (I guess that's the same as a 'former military man') I think there is such a thing as 'personal' courage and I believe this most definitely falls under that category. I would take different types of courage (political, personal, intellectual) over a numbering system. Who gets to do the grading? Just another way of having one group of people judge another. Denigrating the life-struggle of others relating to a human complexity that you have never lived through or don't understand does not take any courage at all.

                Cheers. - Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                  Denigrating the life-struggle of others relating to a human complexity that you have never lived through or don't understand does not take any courage at all.

                  Cheers. - Frank
                  This is the quote of the day ,maybe the quote of the month so far in June

                  Couldn't have said it better myself ( and thats saying a lot lol).
                  Bravo !!!
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                    This is the quote of the day ,maybe the quote of the month so far in June

                    Couldn't have said it better myself ( and thats saying a lot lol).
                    Bravo !!!
                    That's OK. No one else could have said it any better, either. lol

                    I appreciate your comment.

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Wow I just saw this. Caitlyn Jenner gets ESPY Arthur Ashe Award over Iraq veteran Noah Galloway, who lost most of an arm and a leg fighting, but still competes in extreme sports and almost won this season's "Dancing With the Stars,"

                      Also Jenner beat out Mount St. Joseph basketball player Lauren Hill, who courageously battled brain cancer while staying on the university team. The 19-year-old lost her fight against cancer on April 10.

                      Iam really speechless right now.
                      I think Jenner and her choice was Courageous but come on now.

                      Hopefully, Jenner will do the right thing and give the Award to one of these people.

                      That would be Courage and add many fans to Jenner's plight
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Wow I just saw this. Caitlyn Jenner gets ESPY Arthur Ashe Award over Iraq veteran Noah Galloway, who lost most of an arm and a leg fighting, but still competes in extreme sports and almost won this season's "Dancing With the Stars,"

                        Also Jenner beat out Mount St. Joseph basketball player Lauren Hill, who courageously battled brain cancer while staying on the university team. The 19-year-old lost her fight against cancer on April 10.

                        Iam really speechless right now.
                        I think Jenner and her choice was Courageous but come on now.

                        Hopefully, Jenner will do the right thing and give the Award to one of these people.

                        That would be Courage and add many fans to Jenner's plight
                        I seriously and honestly say that I have no words for that!

                        I can only lower my head and shake it in wonder....

                        Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          I can only lower my head and shake it in wonder....
                          What's that rattling noise, I hear? :-)

                          Cheers. - Frank
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            What's that rattling noise, I hear? :-)

                            Cheers. - Frank
                            Oh, well that's easy!

                            You have driven me nuts a couple of times so it's probably just a few of those loose ones you so graciously gave me, gettin' jiggy with it.


                            Terra
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                          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            What's that rattling noise, I hear? :-)

                            Cheers. - Frank
                            Frank, you shouldn't shake your head too much. Don't want rattle snakes to think it is mating season. Terra puts on a good humble giggle-faced front but she is freakishly brilliant.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                              Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                              Terra puts on a good humble giggle-faced front but she is freakishly brilliant.

                              Splorf!

                              Humble giggle-faced front and freakishly brilliant?

                              Hahahaha!

                              Thanks for making me laugh as I needed a good one. These last couple of days have been grueling with the work I'm doing.

                              But, TB...

                              Shhhhhhhh!


                              Terra
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                              • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                Splorf!

                                Humble giggle-faced front and freakishly brilliant?

                                Hahahaha!

                                Thanks for making me laugh as I needed a good one. These last couple of days have been grueling with the work I'm doing.

                                But, TB...

                                Shhhhhhhh!


                                Terra
                                Can you read that description with a straight face? I couldn't, but you're an actor (still acting?)
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                                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                  Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                                  Can you read that description with a straight face? I couldn't, but you're an actor (still acting?)
                                  No straight face was kept, the corners around my mouth upturned.

                                  Still acting? Why yes, yes of course. I'm acting like me because it's the easiest acting job I've ever had.

                                  I do break character every now and again though, as you are acutely aware.


                                  Terra
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                            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                              Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                              Frank, you are brilliant. Terra is a freak
                              Fixed!

                              Cheers. - Frank
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                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                Fixed!

                                Cheers. - Frank

                                You are completely exasperating at times.

                                Sigh!


                                Terra
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                                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                  You are completely exasperating at times.
                                  It's always nice when hard work pays off. :-)

                                  Cheers. - frank
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                                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                  You are completely exasperating at times.

                                  Sigh!


                                  Terra

                                  Well, well, well.

                                  I don't seem so bad after all, now do I?
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                                  If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

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                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                    Well, well, well.

                                    I don't seem so bad after all, now do I?
                                    Heck no!

                                    Why, now, you're practically an angel!


                                    Terra
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        I think Jenner and her choice was Courageous but come on now.
                        This is precisely what I was referring to when I listed the different types of courage. These thing should have never been on the same list.

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                        • Profile picture of the author discrat
                          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                          This is precisely what I was referring to when I listed the different types of courage. These thing should have never been on the same list.

                          Cheers. - Frank
                          I agree , frank. They shouldn't really be doing this to begin with...having an Award of Courage when you have plenty of Courageous acts that are different in context

                          But since they decided to do this, honestly I cannot help but give my opinions on it

                          No way she should be given the Award over these two.

                          No way. I salute Jenner. I do. To do something like this where she will be ridiculed in the public eye.
                          Thats Courage.

                          But NO way she should be given this in the place of two other human beings in this instance

                          Sorry. we can talk principle but Jenner does not deserve this Award over these other people.

                          No way !!

                          For me, NO wiggle room here

                          Sorry, I will go to the grave on that one
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                          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                            Sorry, I will go to the grave on that one
                            And they can lay me to rest, right alongside of you.

                            Cheers. - Frank

                            P.S. Now - won't that be cozy? :-)
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                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                            Originally Posted by discrat View Post


                            No way. I salute Jenner. I do. To do something like this where she will be ridiculed in the public eye.
                            Maybe 30 years ago. Today, it's really considered backward thinking to criticize a person's sexual nature. In fact, it's almost required to say something positive, when someone changes their sex, or comes out of the closet.

                            Has anyone here heard lots of negative comments about this? Neither have I.

                            It's socially required to react negatively, when someone doesn't say something positive. Was she brave? Maybe, because any surgery is risky. But changing your sex? It's almost trendy, like having a gay friend.

                            Jenner obviously was very unhappy. And he thought becoming a woman would make him happy. Doing something that makes you happy, isn't bravery.
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                            • Profile picture of the author discrat
                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                              Maybe 30 years ago. Today, it's really considered backward thinking to criticize a person's sexual nature. In fact, it's almost required to say something positive, when someone changes their sex, or comes out of the closet.

                              Has anyone here heard lots of negative comments about this? Neither have I.

                              It's socially required to react negatively, when someone doesn't say something positive. Was she brave? Maybe, because any surgery is risky. But changing your sex? It's almost trendy, like having a gay friend.

                              Jenner obviously was very unhappy. And he thought becoming a woman would make him happy. Doing something that makes you happy, isn't bravery.
                              Yes times have changed and for the better.

                              Interesting enough I remember growing up in 70s and 80s in school and if anyone thought there was any hint that you might be acting in a 'gay' way you would be condemned and ostracized.

                              In the very worst way.

                              So we have come a long way

                              Also, same way with divorce. People actually would tell me that my friend's parents were going to Hell because they divorced and that's what the Bible said. I believed for awhile until I wised up
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                            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                              Jenner obviously was very unhappy. And he thought becoming a woman would make him happy. Doing something that makes you happy, isn't bravery.
                              But discussing it publicly and honestly and opening oneself to public ridicule is a form of bravery. And yes, there have been some public negative comments. Just because you haven't heard them doesn't mean they don't exist.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                But discussing it publicly and honestly and opening oneself to public ridicule is a form of bravery. And yes, there have been some public negative comments. Just because you haven't heard them doesn't mean they don't exist.

                                I see that. But I tried to understand it, with an analogy. If someone feels inadequate, and feels like they would be much happier with a full body tattoo.....is that bravery?
                                It's a permanent change in appearance, the procedure would be painful, and you would have people stare at you.
                                I wouldn't consider you brave for having the procedure. I would just assume that you were unhappy.

                                The truth is, It's impossible for me to know the thought process in this. I can't identify with it at all. So, I'm really grasping at straws here.

                                Public negative comments?
                                I haven't heard them from anyone I know. But my friends aren't backward lowlifes. I believe you that they are out there.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                  I see that. But I wanted to test myself, with an analogy. If someone feels inadequate, and feels like they would be much happier with a full body tattoo.....is that bravery?
                                  It's a permanent change in appearance, the procedure would be painful, and you would have people stare at you.
                                  I wouldn't consider you brave for having the procedure. I would just assume that you were unhappy.
                                  You're missing the point again. The operation isn't the act of bravery. It's Jenner's public discussion that is. By being probably the most famous person in the US to have a sex change, and discussing it openly, Jenner's giving a sense of acceptance to many.

                                  Public negative comments?
                                  I haven't heard them from anyone I know. But my friends aren't backward lowlifes. I believe you that they are out there.
                                  Actually, there doesn't have to be any public negative comments to make it an act of bravery, only the possibility of them. A military person doesn't have to be killed to be brave, only has to risk being killed.

                                  But there have been negative comments, I won't mention any names, but their initials are F-O-X.


                                  And you lose all credibility by claiming you have "friends". You must mean people you know...
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                    Kurt in Bold;

                                    You're missing the point again. The operation isn't the act of bravery.

                                    I know. I got that.

                                    By being probably the most famous person in the US to have a sex change, and discussing it openly, Jenner's giving a sense of acceptance to many.

                                    I still don't see it as bravery. But I can see it as helpful to others with the same gender issues.
                                    (added a few minutes later; It may be that I just can't feel empathy, so my whole concept of bravery is skewed)

                                    Actually, there doesn't have to be any public negative comments to make it an act of bravery, only the possibility of them. A military person doesn't have to be killed to be brave, only has to risk being killed.

                                    I get that. Maybe that's why Jenner waited so long. At 65, maybe she just doesn't care as much about public approval.

                                    But there have been negative comments, I won't mention any names, but their initials are F-O-X.

                                    And I never watch FOX, because I'm not a knuckle dragging moron, trapped in the 1950s.


                                    And you lose all credibility by claiming you have "friends". You must mean people you know...

                                    I do have friends. But they all hate me. I know they are my friends, because my enemies ignore me. Only my friends torture and insult me.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      And I never watch FOX, because I'm not a knuckle dragging moron, trapped in the 1950s.
                                      Translation: I can't afford a TV, I'm an imbecile - not a moron and I'm trapped in the 1850's. :-)

                                      Cheers. - Frank
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                    Actually, there doesn't have to be any public negative comments to make it an act of bravery, only the possibility of them. A military person doesn't have to be killed to be brave, only has to risk being killed.
                                    I thought about this a little more.

                                    I disagree with the analogy. A military person feels they are serving a greater good. They are risking their lives for others. So, if they are in a position to risk being killed, it's for a cause other than themselves (at least that's my take on it. I've never served in the military)
                                    Jenner didn't do this for others, or for a cause.

                                    Jenner did it to feel better about himself (also a worthy goal).

                                    The fact that it may inspire and help others, isn't the reason it was done. That's a side benefit, after the fact. Maybe some of the public exposure was to help others, I don't know.

                                    If someone came out of the closet, 50 years ago, that would be brave to me, because there would be no upside, just aggravation.

                                    Jenner's decision was a personal one, who benefited nobody close to him (That's an assumption). To me, that isn't an act of bravery. The desire to change his sex was just greater than the anticipated repercussions.

                                    Most of my posts on this is just me, trying to get my mind around the idea, Not that it's really anyone's business, but Jenner's.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      Most of my posts on this is just me, trying to get my mind around the idea,.
                                      Huge idea. Mind - not so much. :-)

                                      Cheers. - Frank

                                      P.S. Even taking into account what Jenner has stated for public consumption, in fact we have absolutely no idea of the more than likely numerous reasons why this step was taken - and we will probably never know. Some things are that personal.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      I thought about this a little more.

                                      I disagree with the analogy. A military person feels they are serving a greater good. They are risking their lives for others. So, if they are in a position to risk being killed, it's for a cause other than themselves (at least that's my take on it. I've never served in the military)
                                      Jenner didn't do this for others, or for a cause.

                                      Jenner did it to feel better about himself (also a worthy goal).

                                      The fact that it may inspire and help others, isn't the reason it was done. That's a side benefit, after the fact. Maybe some of the public exposure was to help others, I don't know.

                                      If someone came out of the closet, 50 years ago, that would be brave to me, because there would be no upside, just aggravation.

                                      Jenner's decision was a personal one, who benefited nobody close to him (That's an assumption). To me, that isn't an act of bravery. The desire to change his sex was just greater than the anticipated repercussions.

                                      Most of my posts on this is just me, trying to get my mind around the idea, Not that it's really anyone's business, but Jenner's.
                                      Then don't give Jenner the "Claude Award for Bravery" and ESPN can give their award to anyone they want.


                                      You are making a lot of assumptions about Jenner's motivations and denying that there's any social stigma today, especially for someone that was for a period of time considered the "greatest athlete in the world".


                                      I think you're just jealous because Jenner is prettier than you.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                        I think you're just jealous because Jenner is prettier than you.
                                        And through it all, Jenner still has a penis.

                                        Cheers. - Frank
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                                        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                          And through it all, Jenner still has a penis.

                                          Cheers. - Frank
                                          Isn't that like one of the first things to go in surgery? If it ISN'T, then how could ANYONE believe the person is LEGIT? It is ITSELF(Well, it kind of sits atop of it, if you know what I mean) the BIGGEST impediment to looking/living like a woman, and the biggest risk, if you aren't serious.

                                          Steve
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                                          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                            Isn't that like one of the first things to go in surgery? If it ISN'T, then how could ANYONE believe the person is LEGIT? It is ITSELF(Well, it kind of sits atop of it, if you know what I mean) the BIGGEST impediment to looking/living like a woman, and the biggest risk, if you aren't serious. Steve
                                            i don't know, Steve. You'll need to take that up with her the next time you two get together for who knows what.

                                            All I know is Ms. Jenner is still packin' Mr. Johnson.

                                            Cheers. - Frank
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                              All I know is Ms. Jenner is still packin' Mr. Johnson.
                                              Good one!

                                              Which made the cover photo even more interesting....is there a product called "tuck-it"?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                                            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                            Isn't that like one of the first things to go in surgery? If it ISN'T, then how could ANYONE believe the person is LEGIT? It is ITSELF(Well, it kind of sits atop of it, if you know what I mean) the BIGGEST impediment to looking/living like a woman, and the biggest risk, if you aren't serious.

                                            Steve
                                            In all seriousness, because it's the biggest risk and not really reversible is why they do it last. At some point, the person might change their mind about the transition.


                                            I was a psych major and took a Psychology of Sexuality class. It is a very complex and organized process that one has to go through before they can completely change genders. A lot of counseling, and psych and medical evaluations. Testing the waters by dressing and acting the potential future gender before the more final steps begin.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                              Biz - I've read about the process so I know what you mean. Personally, I can't imagine mentally dealing with such a life change. I suppose if it is what you want above everything else, you do deal with it.

                                              I'd have to question whether the surgery would even make sense for a 65 yr old person. That has to be a consideration for Jenner.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                                Biz - I've read about the process so I know what you mean. Personally, I can't imagine mentally dealing with such a life change. I suppose if it is what you want above everything else, you do deal with it.

                                                I'd have to question whether the surgery would even make sense for a 65 yr old person. That has to be a consideration for Jenner.
                                                Yeah, I mentioned about those two kids fighting to AVOID changing the other way, and starting early. I mean HECK, on the first two chances, one is like a LONG time before birth, and the other is sometime before 8, and as it goes along, so many things affect your life one way or the other. But after 65? What is the point? Even if you say you want to be "true to yourself", have you been? Will anything really be different for the better?

                                                Steve
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                                            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                              Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                              In all seriousness, because it's the biggest risk and not really reversible is why they do it last. At some point, the person might change their mind about the transition.


                                              I was a psych major and took a Psychology of Sexuality class. It is a very complex and organized process that one has to go through before they can completely change genders. A lot of counseling, and psych and medical evaluations. Testing the waters by dressing and acting the potential future gender before the more final steps begin.
                                              b/c has ALREADY kind of gone too far. Then again, maybe the whole thing is a SHAM! Either way....
                                              There were some jokes made about a reality show and the like earlier on. Apparently it was TRUE!

                                              As for privacy, etc? This is anything BUT! It was made to be as public as possible and still SEEM like a kind of secret.

                                              Steve
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                        Then don't give Jenner the "Claude Award for Bravery" and ESPN can give their award to anyone they want.
                                        It's just an opinion, not a political stand.


                                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                        You are making a lot of assumptions about Jenner's motivations
                                        Of course I am. Just as you are assuming it's an act of bravery, or that part of the motivation is altruistic. These are all guesses.


                                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                        I think you're just jealous because Jenner is prettier than you.
                                        Jenner has always been prettier than me.



                                        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                        And through it all, still has a penis.

                                        Cheers. - Frank
                                        Yeah, I'm not sure I understand that. But then, I don't have to.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                          BTW Claude,


                                          My analogy wasn't about the motivations, it was about the risk and whether or not a person had to face the worse case scenario to be considered brave.
                                          I question your motivations for giving your analogy. And I don't think sharing your analogy shows bravery.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                          Of course I am. Just as you are assuming it's an act of bravery, or that part of the motivation is altruistic. These are all guesses.
                                          .
                                          Except my opinions are largely based on the likelihood of there being social repercussions while mostly ruling out motivations since we don't know, while your assumptions deny any repercussions exist and are based on assumed motivations.


                                          Are the men that stormed Normandy and survived any more or less brave than those that died? This was my original point, which you've distorted.


                                          And, how does their "motivations" factor into their bravery? I'm sure many had different motivations and some were simply more scared of the consequences and stigma of being deserters than wanting to save the world.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                            Except my opinions are largely based on the likelihood of there being social repercussions while mostly ruling out motivations since we don't know, while your assumptions deny any repercussions exist and are based on assumed motivations.
                                            Not deny, I just didn't factor it in.

                                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                            Are the men that stormed Normandy and survived any more or less brave than those that died? This was my original point, which you've distorted.
                                            It's a valid point. But I didn't consciously distort your point, I just misinterpreted what you meant.


                                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                            And, how does their "motivations" factor into their bravery? I'm sure many had different motivations and some were simply more scared of the consequences and stigma of being deserters than wanting to save the world.
                                            True again.

                                            Strange, I'm usually the one overthinking ideas. Believe me, I completely understand your frustration when someone doesn't clearly understand a thought. I can't fault your understanding or insights. But we keep branching of into ideas further and further from the original thoughts. And you're giving these ideas more thought than I am, clearly.

                                            Your points (in my opinion) are 100% valid, but you're going deeper into it that my interest will follow.

                                            I imagine this conversation would go differently, if we were in person, and if I was choking you.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                            Except my opinions are largely based on the likelihood of there being social repercussions while mostly ruling out motivations since we don't know, while your assumptions deny any repercussions exist and are based on assumed motivations.


                                            While there most likely will be repercussions, there is considerably less social stigma now than any time prior. Additionally, most potential repercussions are rendered minor, at best, because Jenner decided to transition after he amassed his fortune.


                                            I don't see this as that big a deal. I wish Jenner the best, but I couldn't care less otherwise. And when everyone else feels the same way is when we'll truly have moved forward as a society.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                              While there most likely will be repercussions, there is considerably less social stigma now than any time prior. Additionally, most potential repercussions are rendered minor, at best, because Jenner decided to transition after he amassed his fortune.


                                              I don't see this as that big a deal. I wish Jenner the best, but I couldn't care less otherwise. And when everyone else feels the same way is when we'll truly have moved forward as a society.
                                              It's really irrelevant whether there's more or less potential for repercussions now or then. The point is, Jenner is facing ridicule and if he probably would have face more 50 years ago doesn't matter.


                                              Money is only a financial issue. Public ridicule crosses all financial lines. Rich people don't like to be made fun of any more than poor people.


                                              My comments on this thread deal more with what is considered bravery more than a sex change. And I think Jenner can do whatever she/he wants too. It's the opinions about bravery that are my point, not if Jenner has a weenie or not.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                                It's really irrelevant whether there's more or less potential for repercussions now or then. The point is, Jenner is facing ridicule and if he probably would have face more 50 years ago doesn't matter.


                                                Money is only a financial issue. Public ridicule crosses all financial lines. Rich people don't like to be made fun of any more than poor people.


                                                My comments on this thread deal more with what is considered bravery more than a sex change. And I think Jenner can do whatever she/he wants too. It's the opinions about bravery that are my point, not if Jenner has a weenie or not.

                                                Kurt, it's absolutely relevant and saying it isn't seems a little disingenuous. It takes far less courage to make a decision that is, for the most part, socially acceptable than it does to make a decision that will cause an entire society to pick up pitchforks.


                                                Regarding the money, it provides him the security to know that, regardless of how society deems him, he can live freely within himself. It eliminates much of the risk of societal shunning. Some people call it FU money. It makes ostracising decisions that much less impactful.


                                                Was he brave? I guess, maybe, but we really don't know if he was guided by bravery or simply a strong desire to be a woman.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                  Kurt, it's absolutely relevant and saying it isn't seems a little disingenuous. It takes far less courage to make a decision that is, for the most part, socially acceptable than it does to make a decision that will cause an entire society to pick up pitchforks.


                                                  Regarding the money, it provides him the security to know that, regardless of how society deems him, he can live freely within himself. It eliminates much of the risk of societal shunning. Some people call it FU money. It makes ostracising decisions that much less impactful.


                                                  Was he brave? I guess, maybe, but we really don't know if he was guided by bravery or simply a strong desire to be a woman.

                                                  It's a matter of courage ... not bravery and Jenner is uniquely advantaged by her wealth and previous reputation as a sports hero. That will go a long way to shield her from the repercussions that most transgenders would suffer.

                                                  It also gives her a unique opportunity to give the transgender community a bigger voice and to help the transgender community. ESPN says it best, and it's their award.

                                                  "Bruce has received many accolades over the years for being one of the greatest Olympians of our time but The ESPYS are honored to celebrate Bruce becoming Caitlyn. She has shown the courage to embrace a truth that had been hidden for years, and to embark on a journey that may not only give comfort to those facing similar circumstances, but can also help to educate people on the challenges that the transgender community faces."
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                                    It's a matter of courage ... not bravery and Jenner is uniquely advantaged by her wealth and previous reputation as a sports hero. That will go a long way to shield her from the repercussions that most transgenders would suffer.
                                                    The advantage of her wealth is also part of the notoriety. How many other transgenders got the cover of Vanity Fair or an ESPY (or any award) or even called "courageous"... I'll wager very few/none. If this was not Bruce Jenner making this change, there'd be no news. Which makes him/her no more/less courageous than any other transgender.

                                                    However, this....

                                                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                                    It also gives her a unique opportunity to give the transgender community a bigger voice and to help the transgender community. ESPN says it best, and it's their award.
                                                    I agree will probably be helpful to other transgenders. Again, it's the notoriety. Have you ever seen the old HBO series Real Sex? More than one show featured transgenders/sexuals/cross-dresseers, etc. None of them ended up on any magazine covers either. So good for Jenner.

                                                    Otherwise, it's none of my business, nor does it affect my life. Live and let live.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                                                      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                                                      The advantage of her wealth is also part of the notoriety. How many other transgenders got the cover of Vanity Fair or an ESPY (or any award) or even called "courageous"... I'll wager very few/none. If this was not Bruce Jenner making this change, there'd be no news. Which makes him/her no more/less courageous than any other transgender.

                                                      Otherwise, it's none of my business, nor does it affect my life. Live and let live.
                                                      It isn't a whole lot different from Billie Jean King, who was featured on Time Magazine cover as Woman of the Year and also won the ESPY award.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                                        It isn't a whole lot different from Billie Jean King, who was featured on Time Magazine cover as Woman of the Year and also won the ESPY award.
                                                        That's a pretty good comparison, especially in the time she came out.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                  Kurt, it's absolutely relevant and saying it isn't seems a little disingenuous. It takes far less courage to make a decision that is, for the most part, socially acceptable than it does to make a decision that will cause an entire society to pick up pitchforks.


                                                  Regarding the money, it provides him the security to know that, regardless of how society deems him, he can live freely within himself. It eliminates much of the risk of societal shunning. Some people call it FU money. It makes ostracising decisions that much less impactful.


                                                  Was he brave? I guess, maybe, but we really don't know if he was guided by bravery or simply a strong desire to be a woman.
                                                  No, it's TOTALLY irrelevant.


                                                  The point I am making isn't whether or not it would have taken more courage 50 years ago. Of course it's better now. My point is whether it takes courage now, regardless of whether it takes more or less courage. Your point is only relevant if we were discussing which situation would take MORE courage, which I'm not.


                                                  Why not compare the bravery it took 50 years ago to 500 years ago? Because it doesn't matter.


                                                  And I disagree with your point about money. A point can also be made that Jenner has enough money to run and hide and avoid much of the criticism altogether.


                                                  As far as being brave or a strong desire to be a women, it isn't an either/or situation. It can be both. Jenner could have wanted to become a women and hidden, or at least been more private.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                                    The point I am making isn't whether or not it would have taken more courage 50 years ago. Of course it's better now. My point is whether it takes courage now, regardless of whether it takes more or less courage. Your point is only relevant if we were discussing which situation would take MORE courage, which I'm not. .
                                                    I agree, and well said.



                                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                                    Jenner could have wanted to become a women and hidden, or at least been more private.
                                                    After multiple posts back and forth, and a good description of Courage from Suzanne....I think I get what you are saying. You are saying that coming out publicly, and having an interview and photos on national TV and magazines.....is an act of courage, no matter to what degree.

                                                    And in that, I tend to agree. It's just not what I think of, when I think of courage. But, like Riffle loves to point out....I don't get to choose my definition of words.

                                                    This is my attempt to make you an ally, so we can plot together, to kill Dan Riffle in his sleep.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                                    No, it's TOTALLY irrelevant.


                                                    The point I am making isn't whether or not it would have taken more courage 50 years ago. Of course it's better now. My point is whether it takes courage now, regardless of whether it takes more or less courage. Your point is only relevant if we were discussing which situation would take MORE courage, which I'm not.

                                                    If the magnitude of courage isn't up for discussion then isn't the discussion moot? If all you're saying is that Jenner displayed courage, then yes, you're correct.


                                                    I just told my wife that I was going to be late coming home from work tonight. That took courage. I played baseball in high school and college. Maybe I should win the ESPY. Both Jenner and I exhibited courage.


                                                    Why not compare the bravery it took 50 years ago to 500 years ago? Because it doesn't matter.
                                                    You're correct, if all we are discussing is whether courage is involved. Of course, that's not much of a discussion. Yes, it took courage. Next topic.


                                                    And I disagree with your point about money. A point can also be made that Jenner has enough money to run and hide and avoid much of the criticism altogether.
                                                    That's entirely my point. Criticism and potential shunning - from being able to make a living - isn't as debilitating when you don't need assistance from society. If anything, he's going to make even more money due to his fame. Criticism to Jenner is just more cash in the bank. It's the Kardashian way.


                                                    As far as being brave or a strong desire to be a women, it isn't an either/or situation. It can be both. Jenner could have wanted to become a women and hidden, or at least been more private.
                                                    Fair enough. The decision falls somewhere on a Bravery/Desire continuum. And we'll never know the exact point.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                      Fair enough. The decision falls somewhere on a Bravery/Desire continuum. And we'll never know the exact point.
                                                      And to Dan and Kurt, I just want to say, that you (the one reading this) are much smarter than the other guy (the one not reading this).
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                        And to Dan and Kurt, I just want to say, that you (the one reading this) are much smarter than the other guy (the one not reading this).

                                                        Kurt and I just have a fundamental difference in viewpoint on this. I also think this discussion would have taken approximately a quarter of a beer to see each others' point in person. Unless you were also there. In that case, we would have joined forces and pummeled you with our bar stools.
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                          Kurt and I just have a fundamental difference in viewpoint on this. I also think this discussion would have taken approximately a quarter of a beer to see each others' point in person. Unless you were also there. In that case, we would have joined forces and pummeled you with our bar stools.
                                                          As long as I was included.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post


                                              And when everyone else feels the same way is when we'll truly have moved forward as a society.
                                              I don't see that happening unfortunately. People will always have differences - beliefs are often passed down from generation to generation. Often it seems that in families some rebel and move forward, embracing change, while some carry on the family traditions no matter how socially backward they are.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                              I don't see this as that big a deal. I wish Jenner the best, but I couldn't care less otherwise. And when everyone else feels the same way is when we'll truly have moved forward as a society.
                                              Zactly.

                                              This particular story is reminiscent of the situation with Judas Priest's singer Rob Halford. Despite the now obvious homo-erotic overtones of dressing up in leather and studs, he kept his sexuality a secret for years to prevent any potential career wrecking backlash. When he finally did come out, the overwhelming reaction from the Heavy Metal community was "Meh. So what. As long as you keep producing music we like and keep putting on great shows, we don't care what you do once the show's ended."

                                              The thing that both Halford and Jenner did though is got people talking about it, and if it gives a few more people the "courage" to accept the way they are, and forces others to become more accepting of people who don't fit into narrow stereotypes, then more power to both of them.

                                              Also for anyone who has a problem with either of them, you'd probably be shocked to discover how many variations there are even within the confines of "straight" sexuality. Some people can only do it in a preferred position. Some people like to be whipped. Some like to dress up in a range of costumes. Some like to be dressed up in bubble wrap. Some like to do it in public. Some like to do it in groups. Despite all this, these people are considered to be "straight".

                                              As far as I'm concerened, providing all parties are consenting adults and no-one gets harmed by anyone's preferred "fetish", then go for it. Fill your boots.


                                              EDIT UPDATE: Despite what I wrote above, people who dress up in bubble wrap are definitely perverts who should be ridiculed and shunned by decent society.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                                                Zactly.

                                                This particular story is reminiscent of the situation with Judas Priest's singer Rob Halford. Despite the now obvious homo-erotic overtones of dressing up in leather and studs, he kept his sexuality a secret for years to prevent any potential career wrecking backlash. When he finally did come out, the overwhelming reaction from the Heavy Metal community was "Meh. So what. As long as you keep producing music we like and keep putting on great shows, we don't care what you do once the show's ended."

                                                The thing that both Halford and Jenner did though is got people talking about it, and if it gives a few more people the "courage" to accept the way they are, and forces others to become more accepting of people who don't fit into narrow stereotypes, then more power to both of them.

                                                Also for anyone who has a problem with either of them, you'd probably be shocked to discover how many variations there are even within the confines of "straight" sexuality. Some people can only do it in a preferred position. Some people like to be whipped. Some like to dress up in a range of costumes. Some like to be dressed up in bubble wrap. Some like to do it in public. Some like to do it in groups. Despite all this, these people are considered to be "straight".

                                                As far as I'm concerened, providing all parties are consenting adults and no-one gets harmed by anyone's preferred "fetish", then go for it. Fill your boots.


                                                EDIT UPDATE: Despite what I wrote above, people who dress up in bubble wrap are definitely perverts who should be ridiculed and shunned by decent society.
                                                WHO KNOWS! Paul lynde, for example, in the normal public, seemed to just act like a weirdo to be comedic. I never heard of homosexuals, or even thought of that possibility, at that point. I was just a kid, wasn't interested in the news, etc... Because of that, I never bothered to put two and two together. I spoke earlier about the "normal public". AH YES...... He ALSO had ANOTHER side of him exposed. IT was meant for homosexuals. I heard that, because they played a record he made about it. MAAAAAAN did he hate straight people. I bet he would have ended up on the street if that were really public earlier.

                                                Steve
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                                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                                          Banned
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          Yeah, I'm not sure I understand that. But then, I don't have to.
                                          Read it again. I simplified it for you. :-)

                                          Cheers. - Frank
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                                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      Jenner's decision was a personal one, who benefited nobody close to him (That's an assumption). To me, that isn't an act of bravery. The desire to change his sex was just greater than the anticipated repercussions.

                                      Most of my posts on this is just me, trying to get my mind around the idea, Not that it's really anyone's business, but Jenner's.
                                      Actually, courage and bravery are two different words with two different meanings. The award is not for bravery. It is for courage. Awards for bravery are freely available for war heroes and first responders, or people who leap in front of danger to save others, etc.

                                      Courage vs Bravery
                                      Courage and bravery- just another pair of English words found together in a thesaurus entry. To most, they are mere synonyms that mean fearlessness, dauntlessness, intrepidity, boldness, or straightforwardly the quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty and danger. Â However, to those who are more philosophically inclined, courage and bravery are 2 notably distinct nouns.

                                      Bravery is the ability to confront pain, danger or attempts of intimidation without any feeling of fear. It is strength in character that allows a person to always be seemingly bigger than the crisis, whether he is indeed more powerful or is lesser than what he is tackled with.

                                      Courage, on the other hand, is the ability to undertake an overwhelming difficulty or pain despite the eminent and unavoidable presence of fear. More than a quality, it is a state of mind driven by a cause that makes the struggle all worth it.

                                      Unlike in the case of bravery, a person fueled by courage may feel inevitably small in the face of peril, pain or problems. The essence of courage is not the feeling of being certainly capable of overcoming what’s one is faced with, but rather is the willful choice to fight regardless of the consequences.
                                      If Jenner presenting as a transgender didn't require courage, then he would have done it decades ago when he first noted his struggle with gender identity. Why wait?
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                        Actually, courage and bravery are two different words with two different meanings. The award is not for bravery. It is for courage. Awards for bravery are freely available for war heroes and first responders, or people who leap in front of danger to save others, etc.
                                        That was actually helpful. Thanks.

                                        Good food for thought, unlike the indecipherable crap I've been getting from Kurt.
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                                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                  Public negative comments?
                                  I haven't heard them from anyone I know. But my friends aren't backward lowlifes. I believe you that they are out there.
                                  https://celebrity.yahoo.com/news/sno...us-weekly.html

                                  Look at all the comments. About everyone of them is cutting into Jenner
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Wow I just saw this. Caitlyn Jenner gets ESPY Arthur Ashe Award over Iraq veteran Noah Galloway, who lost most of an arm and a leg fighting, but still competes in extreme sports and almost won this season's "Dancing With the Stars,"

                        Also Jenner beat out Mount St. Joseph basketball player Lauren Hill, who courageously battled brain cancer while staying on the university team. The 19-year-old lost her fight against cancer on April 10.
                        A lot of people have won that award without being blown to bits or having cancer. Where's the outrage over that. The key to that is great accomplishment in sports as well as courage, and a couple of them are also *gasp* gay. Only one dead and one disabled in the following list of recipients. Apparently death and disability aren't the criteria that they use to choose their winner.



                        Where Are They Now? Updates about ESPY Arthur Ashe Award for Courage Winners - Arthur Ashe | Conscious Leader, Humanitarian, Educator and Athlete

                        He was head coach from 1961 to 1997, winning 879 games (the most at the time of his retirement) and two national championships in 1982 and 1993. He also coached the US Olympic team to gold in the 1976 Montreal games. More than just a coach, he was a man of principles: teaching his players to work together as a team, honor their word and value their educations (Over 95% earned their degrees); helping to desegregate Chapel Hill restaurants when he first arrived in 1958; and recruiting the first African-American on an athletic scholarship to UNC. He was also an outspoken critic of the Vietnam War, the death penalty and nuclear weapons. He received the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage and was named Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year upon his retirement. President Obama awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2013.
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                        • Profile picture of the author discrat
                          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                          A lot of people have won that award without being blown to bits or having cancer. Where's the outrage over that. The key to that is great accomplishment in sports as well as courage, and a couple of them are also *gasp* gay. Only one dead and one disabled in the following list of recipients. Apparently death and disability aren't the criteria that they use to choose their winner.



                          Where Are They Now? Updates about ESPY Arthur Ashe Award for Courage Winners - Arthur Ashe | Conscious Leader, Humanitarian, Educator and Athlete
                          Its called relevancy !!

                          Its been nearly 40 years since has been accomplished at anything in Sports. So this kind of nullifies all that you say.

                          These other two nominees were active athletically in the last year ! Huge difference

                          Remember, its an Annual Award
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            He was head coach from 1961 to 1997, wi
                            The quote above is about Dean Smith - how is that relevant to jenner?
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                            Its called relevancy !!

                            Its been nearly 40 years since has been accomplished at anything in Sports. So this kind of nullifies all that you say.

                            These other two nominees were active athletically in the last year ! Huge difference

                            Remember, its an Annual Award
                            If you look over that list of winners, you will see that many of them had their accomplishments in sports in the distant past .... and DWTS is not really sports. How is the accomplishment below worthy of an award for courage. I'm not seeing it. Explain it to me.

                            On December 7th, 2014—exactly forty years after 2012 winner Pat Summitt coached her first women’s basketball game for the University of Tennessee—her son Tyler Summitt coached his first home game for Louisiana Tech. Summit was there to watch the team win, a recently converted Techster fan after decades of viewing them as an opponent.
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            The quote above is about Dean Smith - how is that relevant to jenner?
                            It is relevant to the conversation of who and why people win the award. Dean Smith was cited by me because he is the only one on the list that has died to get the award. Having cancer and dying or courage in war are not the main criteria for this award.

                            The fact of the matter is that Jenner didn't win OVER Noah. Noah was not being considered for the award. Neither was the girl who died of brain cancer and was on a university basketball team.

                            Noah Galloway amputee runner up to Caitlyn Jenner for ESPYs - Business Insider

                            On Monday, ESPN announced that it would honor Caitlyn Jenner at the 2015 ESPYs with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. That July ceremony is set to be the stage for Jenner’s first major public appearance since unveiling her new identity, which is likely to result in record ratings for the telecast.

                            Since then, a controversy has erupted on social media about whether Jenner should be getting the award, at least as compared to other possible candidates that some deem more worthy. Prominent among those candidates is Noah Galloway, who lost most of his left arm and leg as a soldier in Iraq, then went on to become a distance runner, personal trainer, motivational speaker and, recently, a third-place finisher on “Dancing With the Stars.”

                            [Watch your first look at ‘I Am Cait,’ Jenner’s new reality show]

                            On Tuesday, many people took to Twitter to express disappointment, if not outrage, that ESPN picked Jenner over Galloway. The problem is that there is no indication that ESPN was ever weighing the merits of Galloway, or anyone else, against those of the former Bruce Jenner.

                            The sports network’s press release announcing that Jenner would receive the Courage award makes no mention of any other nominees. The myth-busting Web site Snopes.com traced the misconception that Galloway was passed over to a tweet posted by Gerry Callahan, a Boston Herald columnist and co-host of the “Dennis and Callahan” radio show.

                            Caitlyn Jenner wins Arthur Ashe Courage Award. And the runner-up is …. pic.twitter.com/DKUdnPT8Gx

                            — Gerry Callahan (@GerryCallahan) June 1, 2015

                            [Jon Stewart on Jenner coverage: ‘Your looks are … the only thing we care about’]

                            In this and other tweets, Callahan revealed a mocking attitude toward ESPN’s decision to honor Jenner. Nevertheless, the premise that she had been selected over Galloway became a meme:

                            If Caitlyn Jenner is more courageous then Noah Galloway then I'm not sure what kinda world I'm living in… pic.twitter.com/AbJLuzVpJa

                            — Caylee Roth (@CayNoel) June 2, 2015

                            Sure enough, plenty of folks ran with it:

                            Bruce Jenner won the Arthur Ashe courage award over Army Veteran Noah Galloway? I am disappointed in ESPN's values. Let the boycott begin!

                            — Larry Cox (@CoachLarryCox) June 2, 2015

                            @espn is a joke and everyone knows it. Giving Jenner courage award over Galloway is a travesty.

                            — Ryan (@ryangentry4) June 2, 2015

                            I haven't seen one person not dissappointed with @espn and it's decision to give "Caitlyn Jenner" the courage award over Noah Galloway

                            — Matt Mizak (@Matt_Mizak) June 2, 2015

                            anyone is feeling nauseous today? it's probably caused by @espn picking Jenner to win a courage & inspiration award instead of Noah Galloway

                            — Jordan Morales (@jordanmomo7) June 2, 2015

                            @ espn Jenner over Galloway????? You should be ashamed!!! Truly appalling! !!!

                            — tenvs (@TenVs) June 2, 2015

                            Questioning ever watching the @ESPYS after picking Jenner over @Noah_Galloway. he fought to make those choices possible for Jenner to make

                            — Maria Albert (@MariaJordan23) June 2, 2015

                            Of course, there’s nothing wrong with taking issue with ESPN’s choice of Jenner, as compared to other potential honorees. Tuesday also saw many tweets claiming that would-be college basketball player Lauren Hill, who raised money to fight cancer before dying from her own rare condition this year, would have been a better choice.

                            And a case can certainly be made, as well, for Galloway, on his own inspiring merits. But it’s simply not correct to criticize ESPN for relegating the veteran to “runner up” status to Jenner.

                            No, Caitlyn Jenner was not picked ahead of Noah Galloway for the ESPY award for courage - The Washington Post
                            Caitlyn as Bruce's Athletic Accomplishments

                            1974 Wins Amateur Athletic Union decathlon
                            1975 Wins Pan-American Games decathlon
                            1976 Wins Amateur Athletic Union decathlon
                            1976 Wins gold medal in Montreal Olympic decathlon
                            1976 Sullivan Award; Associated Press Athlete of the Year
                            1980 Inducted into National Track and Field Hall of Fame
                            1986 Inducted into Olympic Hall of Fame

                            Olympic career

                            At the 1972 decathlon U.S. Olympic trials in Eugene, Oregon, Jenner was in fifth place behind Steve Gough and Andrew Pettes. Needing to make up a 19-second gap on Gough in the 1500 meters, Jenner ran a fast last lap, separating from other runners by 22 seconds to make the Olympic team. The Eugene Register-Guard asked "Who's Jenner?" Jenner went on to finish in 10th place at the 1972 Summer Olympics held in Munich, Germany. Jenner sold insurance at night (earning $9,000 a year) while training during the day. During that period, Jenner trained at the San Jose City College track. In the era before professionalism was allowed in athletics, this kind of training was unheard of. Centered around Bert Bonanno, the coach at SJCC, San Jose at the time was a hotbed for training aspiring Olympic athletes called at the time the "Track Capital of the World", including Jenner, along with Millard Hampton, Andre Phillips, John Powell, Mac Wilkins, Al Feuerbach, and others. Still early, Jenner was featured on the cover of Track and Field News on their August 1974 issue. In 1974 and 1976, Jenner was the American champion in the event. While on tour in 1975, Jenner also won the French national championship. Jenner's best events were the skill events of the second day, where the intense training showed.

                            At the trials for the 1976 Summer Olympics to be held in Montréal, Canada, Jenner scored a legal 8538, setting a world record. At the Olympic games themselves, Jenner won the gold medal in the decathlon, scoring 8,616 points, thereby beating her own world record set at the Olympic Trials. Jenner hit a "home run" by achieving personal bests on the first day, turning a notorious second day into a gold medal coronation. Jenner stated, "It hurts every day when you practice hard. Plus, when this decathlon is over, I got the rest of my life to recuperate. Who cares how bad it hurts?"

                            Jenner's world record was broken by just 4 points by Daley Thompson in 1980. In 1985, the IAAF decathlon scoring table was changed; Jenner's winning score was reevaluated against that table and reported as 8,634 for comparative purposes. The converted mark stood as the American record until 1991 when it was surpassed by eventual gold medalist and world record holder Dan O'Brien. As of 2011, Jenner is No. 25 on the world all-time list and the No. 9 American.

                            As a result of winning the Olympic decathlon, Jenner was a national hero and was the 1976 recipient of the James E. Sullivan Award as the top amateur athlete in the United States. Jenner was also the Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year in 1976. Jenner was inducted into the Olympic Hall of Fame in 1986 and the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame, the Connecticut Sports Hall of Fame in 1994, and the United States National Track and Field Hall of Fame in 1980. Jenner was inducted into the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in 2010.

                            San Jose City College hosted the "Bruce Jenner Invitational" (frequently shortened to "Jenner Invitational") as a televised annual stop on the United States Track and Field Circuit (a meet equivalent in stature to the Prefontaine Classic). Records were set at the meet, with Jenner frequently hosting the telecasts.

                            Caitlyn Jenner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE]
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                            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                              If you look over that list of winners, you will see that many of them had their accomplishments in sports in the distant past .... and DWTS is not really sports. How is the accomplishment below worthy of an award for courage. I'm not seeing it. Explain it to me.





                              It is relevant to the conversation of who and why people win the award. Dean Smith was cited by me because he is the only one on the list that has died to get the award. Having cancer and dying or courage in war are not the main criteria for this award.

                              The fact of the matter is that Jenner didn't win OVER Noah. Noah was not being considered for the award. Neither was the girl who died of brain cancer and was on a university basketball team.

                              Noah Galloway amputee runner up to Caitlyn Jenner for ESPYs - Business Insider



                              Caitlyn as Bruce's Athletic Accomplishments

                              1974 Wins Amateur Athletic Union decathlon
                              1975 Wins Pan-American Games decathlon
                              1976 Wins Amateur Athletic Union decathlon
                              1976 Wins gold medal in Montreal Olympic decathlon
                              1976 Sullivan Award; Associated Press Athlete of the Year
                              1980 Inducted into National Track and Field Hall of Fame
                              1986 Inducted into Olympic Hall of Fame

                              Olympic career

                              At the 1972 decathlon U.S. Olympic trials in Eugene, Oregon, Jenner was in fifth place behind Steve Gough and Andrew Pettes. Needing to make up a 19-second gap on Gough in the 1500 meters, Jenner ran a fast last lap, separating from other runners by 22 seconds to make the Olympic team. The Eugene Register-Guard asked "Who's Jenner?" Jenner went on to finish in 10th place at the 1972 Summer Olympics held in Munich, Germany. Jenner sold insurance at night (earning $9,000 a year) while training during the day. During that period, Jenner trained at the San Jose City College track. In the era before professionalism was allowed in athletics, this kind of training was unheard of. Centered around Bert Bonanno, the coach at SJCC, San Jose at the time was a hotbed for training aspiring Olympic athletes called at the time the "Track Capital of the World", including Jenner, along with Millard Hampton, Andre Phillips, John Powell, Mac Wilkins, Al Feuerbach, and others. Still early, Jenner was featured on the cover of Track and Field News on their August 1974 issue. In 1974 and 1976, Jenner was the American champion in the event. While on tour in 1975, Jenner also won the French national championship. Jenner's best events were the skill events of the second day, where the intense training showed.

                              At the trials for the 1976 Summer Olympics to be held in Montréal, Canada, Jenner scored a legal 8538, setting a world record. At the Olympic games themselves, Jenner won the gold medal in the decathlon, scoring 8,616 points, thereby beating her own world record set at the Olympic Trials. Jenner hit a "home run" by achieving personal bests on the first day, turning a notorious second day into a gold medal coronation. Jenner stated, "It hurts every day when you practice hard. Plus, when this decathlon is over, I got the rest of my life to recuperate. Who cares how bad it hurts?"

                              Jenner's world record was broken by just 4 points by Daley Thompson in 1980. In 1985, the IAAF decathlon scoring table was changed; Jenner's winning score was reevaluated against that table and reported as 8,634 for comparative purposes. The converted mark stood as the American record until 1991 when it was surpassed by eventual gold medalist and world record holder Dan O'Brien. As of 2011, Jenner is No. 25 on the world all-time list and the No. 9 American.

                              As a result of winning the Olympic decathlon, Jenner was a national hero and was the 1976 recipient of the James E. Sullivan Award as the top amateur athlete in the United States. Jenner was also the Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year in 1976. Jenner was inducted into the Olympic Hall of Fame in 1986 and the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame, the Connecticut Sports Hall of Fame in 1994, and the United States National Track and Field Hall of Fame in 1980. Jenner was inducted into the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in 2010.

                              San Jose City College hosted the "Bruce Jenner Invitational" (frequently shortened to "Jenner Invitational") as a televised annual stop on the United States Track and Field Circuit (a meet equivalent in stature to the Prefontaine Classic). Records were set at the meet, with Jenner frequently hosting the telecasts.

                              Caitlyn Jenner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                              [/QUOTE]

                              Wow, thanks for clearing that up.

                              Once again lots of people seemed to have gotten bent out of shape with bad information but then again I guess lots of people can and will say something like ... who knows what the internal discussions were at ESPN regarding this award?

                              Maybe anonymous source(s) can and will be viewed as the source or maybe someone at ESPN, "showing courage" ... will step forward and rat out, I mean expose ESPN for their own glory.
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                              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                Banned
                                Wow, thanks for clearing that up.

                                Once again lots of people seemed to have gotten bent out of shape with bad information but then again I guess lots of people can and will say something like ... who knows what the internal discussions were at ESPN regarding this award?

                                Maybe anonymous source(s) can and will be viewed as the source or maybe someone at ESPN, "showing courage" ... will step forward and rat out, I mean expose ESPN for their own glory.[/QUOTE]


                                Jenner certainly has the sports creds and accomplishments to win this award. The vet does not nor does the girl who died of cancer. Not even close to it. They both had courage but courage isn't the only qualification for this award.

                                So, people belittle and demean her (Jenner) because they don't feel that making public that you are transgender is an act of courage. I disagree completely. Going from someone who was considered a sports hero at one time and mostly revered by most, to someone who is now ridiculed for her choices, her looks, her body takes courage whether others acknowledge that or not. ESPN apparently knows that because they gave the award to two others with similar issues ... Billie Jean King and a football player who came out of the "closet" when football players normally don't. This is from ESPN:

                                “Bruce has received many accolades over the years for being one of the greatest Olympians of our time but The ESPYS are honored to celebrate Bruce becoming Caitlyn. She has shown the courage to embrace a truth that had been hidden for years, and to embark on a journey that may not only give comfort to those facing similar circumstances, but can also help to educate people on the challenges that the transgender community faces.”
                                There has been widespread acceptance of Caitlyn by her family and a lot of the public but there has always been the usual crap and hate from those who will never live and let live. Those who are intolerant of anything and anyone who are different from them.

                                Transgenders have a long history of horrendous discrimination, to the point where their lives were in jeopardy when they went out in public, and violence against transgenders is still high. There are only 18 states with laws that prohibit discrimination against transgender people. So in some states, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against these US citizens.

                                Violence against transgender people: A review of United States data ☆

                                Rebecca L. Stotzer,

                                Received 14 December 2007, Revised 31 December 2008, Accepted 20 January 2009, Available online 24 January 2009

                                Abstract

                                Transgender people face many challenges in a society that is unforgiving of any system of gender that is not binary. However, there are three primary sources of data in the United States for discerning the rates and types of violence that transgender people face throughout their lives — self-report surveys and needs assessments, hot-line call and social service records, and police reports. Data from each of these sources are discussed in length, as well as some of the methodological issues for these types of data sources. All three sources indicate that violence against transgender people starts early in life, that transgender people are at risk for multiple types and incidences of violence, and that this threat lasts throughout their lives. In addition, transgender people seem to have particularly high risk for sexual violence. Future research considerations, such as improving data collection efforts, are discussed.
                                Though we may be making strides in social equality with respect to gender identity, like in most instances of social change, the laws are lagging behind the movement. Only 18 states: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington and the District of Columbia have laws that clearly prohibit discrimination against transgender people.
                                Until you/anyone has walked in those shoes, where discrimination against you is legal and you do not have the same rights as other citizens and you are at a higher risk for violent crime against you, I don't think you can accurately say that Jenner's decision didn't require courage.

                                Here's what Mike Huckabee, a man who thinks he could lead this nation thinks:
                                Mike Huckabee’s joke that he wished people were more transgender-accepting when he was in high school so he could have “felt like a woman when it came time to take showers in PE.”
                                http://www.salon.com/2015/06/02/fox_...ritical_right/
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                  Denigrating the life-struggle of others relating to a human complexity that you have never lived through or don't understand does not take any courage at all.

                  Cheers. - Frank
                  Just perfect. Nothing to add to that.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    Frank - coming forward 30+ years ago would have been courageous. Coming forward now when transgender has lost shock value and when the sports career is long over may be "brave" but learning Jenner would receive the ESPY award leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But - that's just me.

                    Caitlyn Jenner excitedly wrote on Twitter "What the hell am I going to wear?" when it was announced that the reality star was to be honored at next month's ESPY's with the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage.
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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      Frank - coming forward 30+ years ago would have been courageous.
                      How do you know what the then he felt, knew, understood or thought 30+ years ago? Do you have any idea how long some people struggle with these issues? Some go to their grave never being honest with themselves.
                      Coming forward now when transgender has lost shock value and when the sports career is long over may be "brave" but learning Jenner would receive the ESPY award leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But - that's just me.
                      Mine, too - but I never would have placed him on that list and I don't think that he placed himself on that list, either. Why be so pissed at him for what others have done? Makes absolutely no sense.

                      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        The interesting thing is that she/he is not attracted to men. Does that make her a lesbian?

        WHAT??!? A real life "Mr. Garrison"? I didn't even know that was a thing... lol
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          to each their own -

          my opinion is this though: one's sexual preference is personal - and the whole world shouldn't have to know about it.
          Sexuality, religion, political beliefs - all personal - and I personally resent having all of it shoved down my throat every second of the day.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

            to each their own -

            my opinion is this though: one's sexual preference is personal - and the whole world shouldn't have to know about it.
            Sexuality, religion, political beliefs - all personal - and I personally resent having all of it shoved down my throat every second of the day.
            One can always choose not to read or watch news or even read forum posts regarding someone's sexuality.
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            • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              One can always choose not to read or watch news or even read forum posts regarding someone's sexuality.

              true - but one has just as much right as anyone else to post an opinion - and it's obvious that I'm not the only one who feels that sexual preferences need not be publicized.

              By the way, I have lots of gay friends just like I have lots of heterosexual friends - and it doesn't matter who expresses their sexuality publicly - I don't want to know about it - TMI! I would tell them to "go get a room"! lol

              I think it all boils down to manners - people who have good manners use discretion - they consider it rude to discuss or publicize their sexual preferences - and only confide with close family or friends if they feel inclined to.

              People with good manners usually don't impose on people.
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              • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

                true - but one has just as much right as anyone else to post an opinion - and it's obvious that I'm not the only one who feels that sexual preferences need not be publicized.
                Yeah - this was destined to be '2015's Secret of the Year.'

                Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

            to each their own -

            my opinion is this though: one's sexual preference is personal - and the whole world shouldn't have to know about it.
            Sexuality, religion, political beliefs - all personal - and I personally resent having all of it shoved down my throat every second of the day.
            Yeah, you make a good point Karen.But the only way Bruce or Caitlyn could afford the lifestyle he lives is by
            "tabloiding" this whole thing. He just bought a 3.5 million dollar spread in Malibu compliments of all this Public show of his sex change.

            Honestly, I do feel for him but when he starts to cry and wants everyone to just leave him alone and let him be Caitlyn but then does all this....well its quite confusing to the Public

            Apparently, he wants to have his cake and eat it too
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              Yeah, you make a good point Karen.But the only way Bruce or Caitlyn could afford the lifestyle he lives is by
              "tabloiding" this whole thing. He just bought a 3.5 million dollar spread in Malibu compliments of all this Public show of his sex change.

              Honestly, I do feel for him but when he starts to cry and wants everyone to just leave him alone and let him be Caitlyn but then does all this....well its quite confusing to the Public

              Apparently, he wants to have his cake and eat it too
              His net worth was $100M before his "change." I'm certainly not confused that entertainers make money from entertaining. If slugs like the Honey Boo Boo clan can rake in the bucks exploiting childhood obesity, and Duck Dynasty can get rich by being ignorant rednecks or whatever they are, and KK can flaunt her flabby ass and make millions, why can't Caitlyn have her own reality show? The public must like this stuff or it wouldn't keep showing up on air.
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                His net worth was $100M before his "change." I'm certainly not confused that entertainers make money from entertaining. If slugs like the Honey Boo Boo clan can rake in the bucks exploiting childhood obesity, and Duck Dynasty can get rich by being ignorant rednecks or whatever they are, and KK can flaunt her flabby ass and make millions, why can't Caitlyn have her own reality show? The public must like this stuff or it wouldn't keep showing up on air.
                Yeah. All Im saying is don't expect people to be nice. Don't expect people to leave you alone. Don't expect people to understand. Don't expect people to be polite . Don't expect people to not harass you.

                Its sad but all these things will happen. That is the scumbag World we live in.

                If its worth it to you to go through all this then by all means go for it !!

                More power to him/her.

                I just think most people choose to be more discreet about something this sensitive to their Core because they do not want all this crap being thrown at them.

                It must be hard as hell just going through this scenario as a nobody let alone somebody in the public eye all the time like Caitlyn.

                If anything maybe it is a good example to all the trans- gender people who have to suffer from this dilemma and the stigma attached to it. So may be a good thing
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                  Yeah. All Im saying is don't expect people to be nice. Don't expect people to leave you alone. Don't expect people to understand. Don't expect people to be polite . Don't expect people to not harass you.
                  Trust me ... I certainly don't expect that from some, but the majority of the people in the US are now "live and let live" in regards to sexuality.

                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                  I just think most people choose to be more discreet about something this sensitive to their Core because they do not want all this crap being thrown at them.
                  A man as famous as the former Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner could hardly be discreet about something as obvious as a sex change. Do you think nobody would notice? lol.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    A man as famous as the former Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner could hardly be discreet about something as obvious as a sex change. Do you think nobody would notice? lol.
                    Bruce jenner isn't THAT famous, ESPECIALLY now! Just today, Rush Limbaugh was musing if the "millenials" even know who he is, outside of the kardashian bit. Someone HERE said much the same thing. And then there are the normal changes, and passage of time. That is with ALL THINGS EQUAL! AH, but they AREN'T! Throw in the changes, and the lack of desire to be seen, and it becomes unlikely that that person would be noticed. NOW, if that person did what they USED to, b/c could EASILY change with virtually NOBODY knowing. It is clear, however, that the publicity was part of the plan.

                    As for being courageous? Kim petras, and Jazz Transgender at 11: Jazz's Story Video - ABC News are more courageous. They didn't even give themselves time to see what the sex they were born with was really like, and they probably gave some thought to the ostracizing , etc.... STILL, you have to wonder. They will never really know what either sex is like. STILL, I will give the 2 I mentioned credit for a couple things. They tried to be as fully female as they could ever be, and tried to grow up as that gender. Once the normal puberty kicks in, that kind of option goes out the window.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Caroline Cossey (formally Barry Kenneth Cossey) was one of the Bond Girls (Tula) in the film For Your Eyes Only. She was not the romantic lead, just one of ten girls who adorned the film. She has also done modelling and a few tv ads over the years.

                      She was born a man and had a full sex change, She married twice and is still married today. I am posting a link below but, what is not in the article was that she had said that the operation (in it's early days) was a botched affair because when they turned her parts inside out and recessed them (or whatever they do), somewhere along the line, something obviously did not go quite right and she has had little or no sexual feeling to speak of since. I suppose this story I heard around the time contradicts why she would want to get married. However, the story was widely told and thought to be true.

                      Although I suspect the operation has been refined to the nth degree since, there is a chance that could happen which may explain why a lot of men who transform themselves in every other way don't go the whole hog. So who do they attract the most I wonder? Gay men, bi curious, gay women?

                      The Transexual Bond Girl @ Universal Exports, The Home of James Bond, 007
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                        she had said that the operation (in it's early days) was a botched affair because when they turned her parts inside out and recessed them (or whatever they do), somewhere along the line, something obviously did not go quite right and she has had little or no sexual feeling to speak of since.
                        Well, I haven't looked at it in quite a while, but they have to get parts from SOMEWHERE! The absolute best source is that SAME person. Last I heard what they did for male to female was similar to what you mentioned. I suspect it is STILL similar.

                        Although I suspect the operation has been refined to the nth degree since
                        THAT is obviously not true AT ALL! The same technology could create bladders, kidneys, etc... Since they CAN'T do that, they obviously can't do the other. They likely STILL use similar skin, and stretch it. Nerve surgery is better, but ALSO not great. NO, they have actually figured out how to transplant gonads and uteruses, but I imagine it would be FAR more difficult for a person that didn't have the room or other facilities, and a man wouldn't. AND, of course, you would have REJECTION problems. ALSO, for gonads, the gametes would have the genetic material of the DONOR!

                        , there is a chance that could happen which may explain why a lot of men who transform themselves in every other way don't go the whole hog. So who do they attract the most I wonder? Gay men, bi curious, gay women?
                        Well, I imagine it is scarier to undergo the weird surgery, that is almost like a costume in a way. If you end up with impaired feelings, outside of looking more real and maybe giving your partner a better sense of reality, what would be the point. And it certainly costs a lot, I mean IMAGINE what they do! As for the hormones? A woman could have some side effects that aren't great, but many don't seem to care anyway. And MEN? Some men have similar sides even from steroids! So I guess they look at it as a non issue.

                        Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Trust me ... I certainly don't expect that from some, but the majority of the people in the US are now "live and let live" in regards to sexuality.



                    A man as famous as the former Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner could hardly be discreet about something as obvious as a sex change. Do you think nobody would notice? lol.
                    If you saw the interview with Bruce he discloses that he has been "Caitlyn" for some time.

                    He even says in New York City many times he would be all decked out in heels and makeup and no one noticed. This is common knowledge now since the interview.

                    You would be surprised what 100 million dollars can do to conceal someone's identity
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                      You would be surprised what 100 million dollars can do to conceal someone's identity
                      And you would be surprised what it can't do as well. There was a photo of her smoking a cigarette on the privacy of her deck at home when she thought she was alone, all dressed up and when the papparazi caught her gazing fondly at her new bright red manicure while parked in her car .... etc

                      She does more for both herself and the transgender community by coming out and being transparent with her changes. Hiding in closets is so passé.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        And you would be surprised what it can't do as well. There was a photo of her smoking a cigarette on the privacy of her deck at home when she thought she was alone, all dressed up and when the papparazi caught her gazing fondly at her new bright red manicure while parked in her car .... etc
                        ACTUALLY, that doesn't count! If you stay in the limelight, you can EXPECT to be seen. b/c DID!

                        She does more for both herself and the transgender community by coming out and being transparent with her changes. Hiding in closets is so passé.
                        Isn't such a decision supposed to be for THAT person? Who said anything about closets? I will just bet you that they don't mention it at every step, or get a tattoo to make it obvious. Jazz(See my earlier post), was honest, but CLEARLY not upfront about the anatomy jazz has. In one of the videos Jazz has a boyfriend that actually had to ASK the question, and Jazz had to "say the P word".

                        Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        Jenner is staying in the spotlight for a reason - a new reality show.

                        Why Caitlyn Bruce Jenner Children not on E! reality show - Business Insider

                        I lost any respect when I saw the Vanity Fair cover - such a lie. Hands were hidden because they're hard to photoshop. Why not presented herself as a well dressed or fashionable woman instead of going for "sex appeal" at age 65? That photo only works if Jenner is not seen in public....

                        Bruce Jenner leaves a clinic with a bandaged throat after undergoing surgery to 'decrease Adam's Apple' | Daily Mail Online
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                          Jenner is staying in the spotlight for a reason - a new reality show.

                          I lost any respect when I saw the Vanity Fair cover - such a lie. Hands were hidden because they're hard to photoshop. Why not presented herself as a well dressed or fashionable woman instead of going for "sex appeal" at age 65? That photo only works if Jenner is not seen in public....
                          I've yet to see a Vanity Fair cover that accurately looks like the person photographed, but that's alright .... with a $100M net worth and a new reality show, I'm sure she can handle your lack of respect.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            Very true - and to be honest, didn't care much for Jenner before he went through "the change" either....and I've yet to watch a single Kardashian reality show. I'm just not her "market".
                            Signature
                            Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

                            I'm going to work on being less condescending
                            (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              Very true - and to be honest, didn't care much for Jenner before he went through "the change" either....and I've yet to watch a single Kardashian reality show. I'm just not her "market".
                              I'm not her market either. I don't watch any reality tv. I hate it. I respect her decision to do as she pleases ... after all, none of this affects my life in any way and I like looking at pics of famous transgenders. I've always found it fascinating. I've seen some in person when I lived in San Francisco and they were far more beautiful than I have ever been. I also like the "female impersonator" entertainment. I'd watch that any day over a reality tv show. I have not watched more than 5 minutes of reality tv. It's all I could take.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

            to each their own -

            my opinion is this though: one's sexual preference is personal - and the whole world shouldn't have to know about it.
            Sexuality, religion, political beliefs - all personal - and I personally resent having all of it shoved down my throat every second of the day.
            And that is why I'm not saying a word, not a single solitary word.

            Well, except that I don't understand this at all.

            But other than that, not a solitary word!

            Well, except I don't even want to think or talk about it because personally, and this is just me, it makes me feel like I have to throw up!

            Okay, I promise...not another single, solitary word, lol!


            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Well, except I don't even want to think or talk about it because personally, and this is just me, it makes me feel like I have to throw up!


              Terra
              Tell us how you truly feel about Caitlyn, Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                Tell us how you truly feel about Caitlyn, Terra
                Nah, I think I've said enough already.

                Well, except I don't know he/she at all and I'd probably feel much differently if he/she were someone I knew and cared about...


                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Nah, I think I've said enough already.

                  Well, except I don't know he/she at all and I'd probably feel much differently if he/she were someone I knew and cared about...


                  Terra
                  So true Terra !

                  its weird, no question. Like Claude said it makes me feel a little queasy.

                  But if it was my brother, dad, Uncle I would probably feel different.

                  We all have crazy things about us. Things ( sometomes thoughts) that we wouldn't tell anyone or wouldn't want anyone to know about
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                    We all have crazy things about us. Things ( sometomes thoughts) that we wouldn't tell anyone or wouldn't want anyone to know about
                    Very true. Claudia Whitacre can verify that for you.

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      Very true. Claudia Whitacre can verify that for you.

                      Cheers. - Frank
                      Maybe Francesca as well
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Maybe Francesca as well

                        LOL!

                        Ummmm, now you're going to get it!! (In sing songy voice!)

                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        So true Terra !

                        its weird, no question. Like Claude said it makes me feel a little queasy.

                        But if it was my brother, dad, Uncle I would probably feel different.

                        We all have crazy things about us. Things ( sometomes thoughts) that we wouldn't tell anyone or wouldn't want anyone to know about
                        Yep! I actually have a cousin, my mom's cousin, my second cousin, who lives an alternative lifestyle and I love him and his partner so much! I don't even want to consider life without them!


                        Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          Yep! I actually have a cousin, my mom's cousin, my second cousin, who lives an alternative lifestyle and I love him and his partner so much! I don't even want to consider life without them! Terra
                          Oh, my. Could I ever blow THIS thread up. lol

                          Cheers. - Frank
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            Oh, my. Could I ever blow THIS thread up. lol

                            Cheers. - Frank


                            Broccoli again for lunch, Frank?
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                          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            Oh, my. Could I ever blow THIS thread up. lol

                            Cheers. - Frank
                            Ya better don't. (Also in sing songy voice.)
                            Signature

                            "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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                            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                              Ya better don't. (Also in sing songy voice.)
                              Had I planned to, I already would have.

                              F.
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                            • Profile picture of the author uppityretire
                              I'm in Manila right now and I can't seem to find a copy of that Vanity Fair issue
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                            Oh, my. Could I ever blow THIS thread up. lol

                            Cheers. - Frank
                            Watch it, Frank!

                            Just because your brain conjures up naughty, nasty things doesn't make those things true!

                            Nuff said!

                            Oh except...



                            BEHAVE!!!!


                            Terra
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                            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                              Watch it, Frank! Just because your brain conjures up naughty, nasty things doesn't make those things true!
                              Of course it does.
                              Nuff said! Oh except... BEHAVE!!!! Terra
                              Sorry - I have no interest in motherly advice, today.

                              Cheers. - Frank
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                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                Of course it does.
                                Sorry - I have no interest in motherly advice, today.

                                Cheers. - Frank
                                Excuse me! I have no interest in mothering you at all.

                                No one can replace anyone's mother, ever, because only a son or an adopted son, purely from that man's heart, accepting of another woman as a motherly figure in his life, would even give one iota of their attention span, in that manner, to another woman older than himself.

                                Ha! How's that for a run-on sentence?

                                The most obvious point though is older woman which I am obviously not!

                                Now, as a personal friend, I was just trying to reach deeeeep inside of you where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, a decent upstanding man resides.

                                Uh.....


                                So there! LOL!


                                Terra
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                                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                  I was just trying to reach deeeeep inside of you where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, a decent upstanding man resides.
                                  Wow - you really are clueless. The only thing that can be found deep inside of me is a heart of stone. I think I'm quite honest in showing that.

                                  You really need to learn how to read people a little more accurately. lol

                                  Cheers. - Frank
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                    Wow - you really are clueless. The only thing that can be found deep inside of me is a heart of stone. I think I'm quite honest in showing that.

                                    You really need to learn how to read people a little more accurately. lol

                                    Cheers. - Frank
                                    Well, there are inside voices and outside voices and that's all I'm saying about that, you icy hearted B-turd!

                                    Better? lol!


                                    Terra
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                                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                      Well, there are inside voices and outside voices and that's all I'm saying about that, you icy hearted B-turd!

                                      Better? lol! Terra
                                      Getting there. Please continue to follow my lead. There's hope for you, yet.

                                      Cheers. - Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Maybe Francesca as well
                        Maybe, but if we discuss these topics in public, we'll annoy those that don't like this type on info "shoved down their throat.' :-)

                        Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
    Somebody should have told him about the WF, where "he" could post as a "she" and sort of
    ... have the experience...without all the bother.

    As I understand it from Claude, shaving your legs, at least in this forum - is optional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    If the Cleveland Browns wouldn't have lost and let the Bills draft OJ, the Kardashians wouldn't be who they are today.

    He never would have met Nicole, she wouldn't have died, he wouldn't have hired Robert to do the work to save his freedom.

    The world wouldn't have "Caitlin".

    I don't personally get why he'd want to do this, especially just to date women. Mind blown lol I'm pretty much speechless.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

      If the Cleveland Browns wouldn't have lost and let the Bills draft OJ, the Kardashians wouldn't be who they are today.

      He never would have met Nicole, she wouldn't have died, he wouldn't have hired Robert to do the work to save his freedom.

      The world wouldn't have "Caitlin".

      I don't personally get why he'd want to do this, especially just to date women. Mind blown lol I'm pretty much speechless.
      This 'connection' is bit of a stretch.

      The Juice was a helluva a tailback. It didn't matter if Cleveland lost or won or whether he went to Buffalo or not.

      And Jenner was a huge national hero back in 76'.

      Way before the Kardashians.

      Maybe it would not have been publicized to this extent, but it would have most definitely been news with or without Kardashians.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Signature
    Hi
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    May be a stretch, but it works

    It was some joke I heard on the radio a while back. There was a lot more to it but I don't know enough about Football

    Their commercial said "We wouldn't be dealing with the Kardashians today if it wasn't for OJ getting drafted."
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Bruce has long hair. Don't care.
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Do Claude's homosexual longings for Bruce become heterosexual with the sex change? Or does Claude being a eunuch cancel everything out?
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    Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Do Claude's homosexual longings for Bruce become heterosexual with the sex change? Or does Claude being a eunuch cancel everything out?


      Every time I do the math, it ends up with Claude being a cross-dressing, albino midget. I must not be carrying a 1 somewhere...
      Signature

      If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    BTW Claude,


    My analogy wasn't about the motivations, it was about the risk and whether or not a person had to face the worse case scenario to be considered brave.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I do hope that the only repercussions Jenner has to deal with are verbal and social media.
    Not physical harm, or threats of physical harm.
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Any grown man who appreciates a woman would have 101 alarm bells going off if that popped up on the radar, the caption should read "CALL ME FUGLY"
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    | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      Any grown man who appreciates a woman would have 101 alarm bells going off if that popped up on the radar, the caption should read "CALL ME FUGLY"
      They say there is someone out there for everyone.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    .... and now come one of the most shameful repercussions.

    https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/ce...ail&soc_trk=ma

    https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/ce...160628464.html

    Fortunately, the IOC isn't buying it.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      .... and now come one of the most shameful repercussions.

      https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/ce...ail&soc_trk=ma

      https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/ce...160628464.html

      Fortunately, the IOC isn't buying it.
      I agree that their stance is a bit silly. They should have argued it in the REAL sense! YEAH BRUCE JENNER, a man, won the title. Caitlin is a different person and shouldn't have it. Oh SURE, KEEP the history! But that is all it is now, HISTORY!

      As for competing as the wrong gender? If bruce really felt that way, it would have been better to go all the way, and THEN work on the title.

      I mean do we allow women to go on anabolic steroids and compete? Not intentionally. It is against the rules. If they wanted to be seen as real women, would they go all out with anabolic steroids? Likely NOT. So SOMETHING is weird here. He may have never been like Arnold swartzenegger was in his heyday, but could you imagine that kind of switch, and then saying he ALWAYS felt that way?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I agree that their stance is a bit silly. They should have argued it in the REAL sense! YEAH BRUCE JENNER, a man, won the title. Caitlin is a different person and shouldn't have it. Oh SURE, KEEP the history! But that is all it is now, HISTORY!

        As for competing as the wrong gender? If bruce really felt that way, it would have been better to go all the way, and THEN work on the title.

        I mean do we allow women to go on anabolic steroids and compete? Not intentionally. It is against the rules. If they wanted to be seen as real women, would they go all out with anabolic steroids? Likely NOT. So SOMETHING is weird here. He may have never been like Arnold swartzenegger was in his heyday, but could you imagine that kind of switch, and then saying he ALWAYS felt that way?

        Steve
        Doesn't matter what she felt like back then Steve. She was a man then competing in men's sports and was not taking hormone therapy at that time. It's just a bunch of intolerant, mean spirited assholes doing the petition.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Doesn't matter what she felt like back then Steve. She was a man then competing in men's sports and was not taking hormone therapy at that time. It's just a bunch of intolerant, mean spirited assholes doing the petition.
          YEAH, but b/c wants to change EVERYTHING, so HEY, DO it! You are talking about BRUCE winning the title, NOT caitlin.

          BTW:


          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Mean spirited and ignorant. I don't think Jenner's body looked at all feminine back then. If she was at all feminine back then, the men he beat might have cause to be embarrassed.


    From the blog Suzanne posted:
    "Apparently unaware that the women's decathlon is not an Olympic sport, Bradford writes, "It is only fair to all involved that women receive their credit as champions of the Decathalon [sic] and that the men racing Ms. Jenner are not expected to compete with a superior, streamlined being such as herself."
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Without looking, I'd guess Bradford is a 20-something with little knowledge of Olympic Games and no knowledge of sports at the time Jenner was a "winner" almost 40 years ago!

      Has Jenner had anything to do with sports since he abandoned his amateur status after the winning Olympics? He drove some race cars, tried to get into acting without success, was stepfather to Kardashians....but he didn't play pro football or have any jobs connected to sports except as being "himself" on a Wheaties box and in appearances, etc.

      It's interesting how many news stories today are based on events/wins/crimes that occurred 30-40 years ago. I don't remember seeing that happen in the past.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      YEAH, but b/c wants to change EVERYTHING, so HEY, DO it! You are talking about BRUCE winning the title, NOT caitlin.

      Steve
      blah blah blah

      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Mean spirited and ignorant. I don't think Jenner's body looked at all feminine back then. If she was at all feminine back then, the men he beat might have cause to be embarrassed.
      I don't pretend to know what goes on internally when someone feels like the sex that they aren't born with, so I wouldn't second guess them. It's a phenomena that happens too frequently to be just made up and it is real to the person who is suffering from it.

      That being said, I don't think Caitlyn looks feminine then or now. There's been $4M spent on operations, breast enhancement, clothes, treatments, etc. Having spent that much money on this, she still looks masculine to me. If I saw her on the street, I wouldn't think ... woman. I would think ... transvestite. I have seen some transvestites that shocked me ... I would have never guessed in a million years. Caitlyn's face, arms and hands are masculine looking.

      But that doesn't mean anything really. The point is what she feels like and has felt like for years. It's her life and body and money to do with as she pleases. If this is what she wants and it makes her happy, I'm all for it. You go girl!
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I don't pretend to know what goes on internally when someone feels like the sex that they aren't born with, so I wouldn't second guess them. It's a phenomena that happens too frequently to be just made up and it is real to the person who is suffering from it.

        That being said, I don't think Caitlyn looks feminine then or now. There's been $4M spent on operations, breast enhancement, clothes, treatments, etc. Having spent that much money on this, she still looks masculine to me. If I saw her on the street, I wouldn't think ... woman. I would think ... transvestite. I have seen some transvestites that shocked me ... I would have never guessed in a million years. Caitlyn's face, arms and hands are masculine looking.

        But that doesn't mean anything really. The point is what she feels like and has felt like for years. It's her life and body and money to do with as she pleases. If this is what she wants and it makes her happy, I'm all for it. You go girl!
        People feel a LOT of ways, and most of it IS made up! WHO KNOWS!

        $4 million? FOR WHAT? Last I heard, I doubt the vocal chords were done. People here are saying the lower part wasn't done. That leaves some augmentation, the nose/face, and maybe a few other things. I don't think there is much they can do with the hands, other than the normal female things. For the arms, they will get a bit thinner, and they can get rid of hair, etc... OBVIOUSLY it costs a lot, but $4 MILLION!?!?!?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          $4 million? FOR WHAT? Last I heard, I doubt the vocal chords were done. People here are saying the lower part wasn't done. That leaves some augmentation, the nose/face, and maybe a few other things. I don't think there is much they can do with the hands, other than the normal female things. For the arms, they will get a bit thinner, and they can get rid of hair, etc... OBVIOUSLY it costs a lot, but $4 MILLION!?!?!?

          Steve
          Below is just for surgery. It doesn't include a psychologist, a voice trainer, a fortune on a new, very expensive wardrobe or hormone therapy lasting years, if not a lifetime. The $4M was an estimate from sources who know what she spent on some clothes and high end surgeons who gave the estimates for medical procedures. A psychologist is required for transitioning surgeries. She also remodeled her closet to the tune of around $15,000 to accommodate her new $150,000K or so new wardrobe. It may a be high or low estimate.

          The Vanity Fair article outlined some of the surgeries Jenner underwent, including a breast augmentation, a tracheal shave, to reshape and "feminize" her throat, rhinoplasty, aka a nose job, and facial feminization, a reshaping of the hairline, forehead, jaw and chin.

          The cost? A tracheal shave will set you back somewhere between $2,500 and $12,000, according to estimates from three prominent plastic surgeons. Rhinoplasty? That's $7,500-$15,000 each (Jenner got two). Breast augmentation costs somewhere between $8,000 and $10,000.

          Facial feminization can run anywhere from $10,000-$60,000, depending on the complexity of the procedure (Jenner's lasted 10 hours). Lauren Stoppelbein, practice manager for, Dr. Jeffrey Spiegel, who is Chief of Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery at the Boston University School of Medicine and has a practice in Chesnut Hill, MA, said the range for facial feminization is so large because it varies based on the number of procedures conducted during the surgery, which varies on a case by case basis. She said someone with one procedure might pay $10,000, while someone who gets their whole face done will be on the upper end of the price spectrum.

          The two other doctors Forbes contacted are Dr. Paul Weiss, who practices in New York and Dr. Toby Mayer, who has been practicing facial plastic and reconstructive surgeries for 40 years at the Beverly Hills Institute of Aesthetic and Reconstructive Surgery.
          EDIT: Just found the article that had the $4M figure in it.

          Caitlyn Jenner has reportedly spent around four million dollars over her transition into a woman.

          A plastic surgeon shared that the 65-year-old reality TV star, who recently unleashed her new look on Vanity Fair cover, had spent around 81,000 dollars, including 10,000 pounds on a boob job, the Mirror has reported.

          The reports also details that Jenner's Trashy Lingerie bustier that she wore on the cover cost 200 dollars, whereas the Zac Posen gown was worth 7,000 dollars.

          She also remodeled her closet with 150,000 dollars of dresses.

          Bruce Jenner's 'female' Caitlyn avataar cost him whopping USD 4M | Business Standard News
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    here you go

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    | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, if you include the psychiatric garbage, it could easily double or triple the cost, and lifetime costs could be very high. But who could, let alone would, estimate them to that degree. As for clothes, it could be virtually nothing to the skys the limit. But again, who could, let alone would, estimate it.

    And if you have to go to such great lengths to emulate, by actions, what you are trying to be, are you REALLY that in spirit?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      OK, if you include the psychiatric garbage, it could easily double or triple the cost, and lifetime costs could be very high. But who could, let alone would, estimate them to that degree. As for clothes, it could be virtually nothing to the skys the limit. But again, who could, let alone would, estimate it.
      Here's the article that reported the $4M figure
      Bruce Jenner's 'female' Caitlyn avataar cost him whopping USD 4M | Business Standard News

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      And if you have to go to such great lengths to emulate, by actions, what you are trying to be, are you REALLY that in spirit?
      You've got it back asswards. Caitlyn is a woman in spirit. What she will never be is a woman in the purely technical sense of the word. She'll never have the right chromosomes, she'll never worry about whether or not her tatas will develop, she'll never have a period, she'll never have a baby grow inside her or feed from her breasts.

      Is it any skin off your back that she wants to live out the rest of her life as a woman and that will require "emulating?"
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        You've got it back asswards. Caitlyn is a woman in spirit.
        I think YOU interpreted what I said backwards! I wassaying that if b/c were a woman in spirit wouldn't the actions come naturally.

        she'll never worry about whether or not her tatas will develop
        You mean BREASTS? Those are about the only thing on a male-> female that can be REAL! And YEP, they would take a while to develop.

        Is it any skin off your back that she wants to live out the rest of her life as a woman and that will require "emulating?"
        NOPE! Perhaps it is just because of the social and legal implications that I don't like it.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          NOPE! Perhaps it is just because of the social and legal implications that I don't like it.

          Steve
          Well, that's kind of too bad for you because the world has evolved without you and the majority of people in this country and others opt for a live and let live philosophy and simply don't care about other people's sexuality.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Well, that's kind of too bad for you because the world has evolved without you and the majority of people in this country and others opt for a live and let live philosophy and simply don't care about other people's sexuality.
            That makes about as much sense as some evil dictator that wanted t get an atomic bomb, and you try to stop it and the bomb destroys the dictators country but he is happy, and bragging that he got the bomb.

            I swear, I keep being reminded of that twilight zone episode! WWIII iradiated most of the land and food, and people. People die CONSTANTLY by ingesting contaminated food. One guy knows a secret, but knows he can NEVER tell people because he knows what they might do. So it creates a myth. The entire society, of which he is a part, feasts, and lives through it all. That is unusual. A stupid group of wannabe soldiers enters twon, hears the myth, and FORCES him to reveal all. Sadly, he DOES. It reveals a COMPUTER! MAD, that the computer has denied them access to "food and wine" all this time, they DESTROY IT! The entire night, they live it up with the tainted food. OH, and THEY bragged about "evolving" ALSO!

            The movie closes with the man walking around town with all the dead people on the ground. Most clearly died WHILE "living it up".

            BTW societies HAVE been through this before! It is nothing new! It seems all goes in cycles. I just wish I were born earlier in this one.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              [snip incoherent stuff]

              I just wish I were born earlier in this one.

              Steve

              So do I Steve ... I mean you, not me. About 500 years earlier. lol
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Well, that's kind of too bad for you because the world has evolved without you and the majority of people in this country and others opt for a live and let live philosophy and simply don't care about other people's sexuality.

              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              That makes about as much sense as some evil dictator that wanted t get an atomic bomb, and you try to stop it and the bomb destroys the dictators country but he is happy, and bragging that he got the bomb.
              So now your rambling on and equating homosexuality to a ticking atomic bomb that will blow up the World unless we rid ourselves of it
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                So now your rambling on and equating homosexuality to a ticking atomic bomb that will blow up the World unless we rid ourselves of it
                READ IT IN CONTEXT! I am basically saying that, in the end, those on that side would wish they had never done it. They are more concerned with saying "we won", then with actually achieving the final stated goal. Look at Russia, for example. They had a revolution SUPPOSEDLY to HELP the people, and it ended up HURTING the people. But they got to say "WE WON"! Look at the "allieds" in WWI! They drafted a RIDICULOUS TREATY, that helped to cause WWII. But they got to say "WE WON"! And NOW you have a group that is trying to change SO much. Is ANY word unchanged? I mean one person even said the word "IS" has no meaning! And HERE, we are changing pronouns, and the words male and female. HECK, did YOU know that tilapia is one of the hardier fish? Still, the female doesn't eat for a long time, while her young are growing. I forget if it is 6 weeks or 6 months at this point. Because of that, they grow slower and are smaller. So fish farmers found a way to make the females MALE! NO SURGERY REQUIRED, and they can act like males, even as far as siring offspring. Of course, the offspring are not as good as those from a natural male.

                So where does it stop? What concessions will, will not be made? It really does get to a point to where it IS beyond what one person does with their own body.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  HECK, did YOU know that tilapia is one of the hardier fish? Still, the female doesn't eat for a long time, while her young are growing. I forget if it is 6 weeks or 6 months at this point. Because of that, they grow slower and are smaller. So fish farmers found a way to make the females MALE! NO SURGERY REQUIRED, and they can act like males, even as far as siring offspring. Of course, the offspring are not as good as those from a natural male.

                  So where does it stop? What concessions will, will not be made? It really does get to a point to where it IS beyond what one person does with their own body.

                  Steve
                  OH MY god NO ... say it ain't so. NOT transgendered Tilapia. WHERE will THE maDnEss END I SAY
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    OH MY god NO ... say it ain't so. NOT transgendered Tilapia. WHERE will THE maDnEss END I SAY
                    YEP! And I don't imagine they are very healthy food either!

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                      YEP! And I don't imagine they are very healthy food either!

                      Steve
                      Oh Stevie ... you're just being a Tilapaphobe.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        Oh Stevie ... you're just being a Tilapaphobe.
                        OH, I Like tilapia as a dish, and even researched it at length hoping that I would get an idea I would consider foolproof enough to allow me to have them in an aquaponic system. For some reason, they don't have real reliable ones unless they are HUGE. Anyway, I would NOT like one of the hormonally modified ones, or their offspring.

                        Steve
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                          OH, I Like tilapia as a dish, and even researched it at length ....Anyway, I would NOT like one of the hormonally modified ones, or their offspring.

                          Steve
                          Well, you go ahead and condone the Tilapia's behavior, but I DON'T LiKE the lEGal and SoCIal IMPLICATIONS of IT one SinGLE BIT. I mean, if they have FEMAle TiLAPia transGENDering into MaLE TiLAPia and thEN maLE TiLAPia maRRYing other maLE TiLAPia, well that's just queer and wrong.

                          As my good friend DennIS HasTURD would say, "what about FAMILY valuES, for god's sake, DOn't the tiLAPia knOW that a FEMALE TIlaPia coMING OUT as a MAle tiLAPiA is hypocrisy and tHE equivalent of MORAL apocalypSE .... and OF courSE, mY best bUDdy Rush LimpBALLS would say:

                          As Rush Limballs put it, the public acclaim of the TiLApIA's gender identity makes those who believe in traditional values and gender roles seem like the outcasts. “Conservatives and Republicans are the new weirdos, the new kooks, and that is part of the political objective here in normalizing all of this really marginal behavior of tILaPia,” he said.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            I love the Tilapia discussions. Have never tasted it - it's a trash fish, a bottom feeder and we don't eat it by choice. But so is catfish - and it's a staple in the south.
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              I love the Tilapia discussions. Have never tasted it - it's a trash fish, a bottom feeder and we don't eat it by choice. But so is catfish - and it's a staple in the south.
                              I love both catfish and tilapia. I keep a bag in the freezer of both and get it fresh when I can. Tilapia is a nice mild fish good for broiling or frying. I probably like catfish better because I'll order that in a restaurant if it's offered.
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                            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              I love the Tilapia discussions. Have never tasted it - it's a trash fish, a bottom feeder and we don't eat it by choice. But so is catfish - and it's a staple in the south.
                              Hi. Tilapia are actually omnivores and will eat at all three water levels. Not completely accurate to call them a bottom-feeder.

                              What has a Tilapia ever done to you? lol

                              Cheers. - Frank
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                              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                I like catfish but when I first saw it offered I was like "no way"! The only catfish I had seen were the fish thrown on the bank by fisherman at the reservoir behind my house...who didn't want them.

                                The "garbage fish" comes from my son - but it reminded me of my reaction to catfish so I don't argue it.
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                                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                  I like catfish but when I first saw it offered I was like "no way"! The only catfish I had seen were the fish thrown on the bank by fisherman at the reservoir behind my house...who didn't want them.

                                  The "garbage fish" comes from my son - but it reminded me of my reaction to catfish so I don't argue it.
                                  Tilapia are actually being farmed in huge numbers in the US. Many prisons now have their own aquaculture facilities where prisoners can grow their own food, provide a food source to local communities and acquire a degree in aquaculture in conjunction with their local college.

                                  One of the state prisons just miles from my home had such an arrangement until they lost federal funding to help the program reach economic viability.

                                  The money was apparently needed for subsidies to the oil companies which pollute our waterways and kill millions of fish, each year. Only in America, folks.

                                  Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Well, here's an interesting dilemma that has popped up in Austin Texas. A street named Bruce Jenner Lane has been debated whether it should now be called Caitlyn Street...


          On Bruce Jenner Lane, Will name become Caitlyn Street?


          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            Well, here's an interesting dilemma that has popped up in Austin Texas. A street named Bruce Jenner Lane has been debated whether it should now be called Caitlyn Street...


            On Bruce Jenner Lane, Will name become Caitlyn Street?


            Terra
            With a simple touch up, they could re-name it Bruce Gender Street.

            The road leading to the dump can be named Riffle Dump Road. It's a short road.

            There should be a road named Seasoned Highway. It goes around and around, without direction.... confusing the drivers, until they just get out of their cars and walk.
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              With a simple touch up, they could re-name it Bruce Gender Street.

              The road leading to the dump can be named Riffle Dump Road. It's a short road.

              There should be a road named Seasoned Highway. It goes around and around, without direction.... confusing the drivers, until they just get out of their cars and walk.
              LOL!

              I'm glad you didn't name a road of any kind after me. I'm too afraid to know what you would call it, haha!

              EDIT: I think if there were a street named after you, it would have to be a one way street and at the wrong direction it would say ~ Dough-not Enter.


              Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                LOL!

                I'm glad you didn't name a road of any kind after me. I'm too afraid to know what you would call it, haha!

                EDIT: I think if there were a street named after you, it would have to be a one way street and at the wrong direction it would say ~ Dough-not Enter.


                Terra
                That was a good one.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                LOL!

                I'm glad you didn't name a road of any kind after me. I'm too afraid to know what you would call it, haha!

                EDIT: I think if there were a street named after you, it would have to be a one way street and at the wrong direction it would say ~ Dough-not Enter.


                Terra
                " EDIT: I think if there were a street named after you, it would have to be a one way street and at the wrong direction it would say: Whitacre Close, Dough-not Enter.

                Fixed
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  " EDIT: I think if there were a street named after you, it would have to be a one way street and at the wrong direction it would say: Whitacre Close, Dough-not Enter.

                  Fixed
                  Man, these Threads are getting cornier and cornier by the minute
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                    Man, these Threads are getting cornier and cornier by the minute
                    What you're really saying is...




                    Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              With a simple touch up, they could re-name it Bruce Gender Street.

              The road leading to the dump can be named Riffle Dump Road. It's a short road.

              There should be a road named Seasoned Highway. It goes around and around, without direction.... confusing the drivers, until they just get out of their cars and walk.
              Seriously? No, 'Hershey Highway' jokes? God, you folks are slipping.

              Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                Seriously? No, 'Hershey Highway' jokes? God, you folks are slipping.

                Cheers. - Frank
                Not sure what Hershey Highway entails but if it has anything to do with chocolate Im all for it. Yum
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Ummm...not quite. It's where some of the "skid mark" jokes come from....

                  I really doubt you'd like it - but then, I could be wrong....
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                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Ummm...not quite. It's where some of the "skid mark" jokes come from....

                    I really doubt you'd like it - but then, I could be wrong....
                    As Miss Terra might say , "eeewwwwww !!"
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                  Not sure what Hershey Highway entails but if it has anything to do with chocolate Im all for it. Yum

                  Seriously, you've never heard of the Hershey squirts?


                  Terra
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                  • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                    Seriously, you've never heard of the Hershey squirts?


                    Terra

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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    To be fair, I don't recall seeing anything to the effect that Jenner claimed to be courageous (but I didn't watch the interviews either). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a word that others have throwing around and debating about?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      To be fair, I don't recall seeing anything to the effect that Jenner claimed to be courageous (but I didn't watch the interviews either). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a word that others have throwing around and debating about?
      Yes, it's been others, not Jenner. She was probably just as surprised about the ESPY award as some others are.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Early in the thread I said it was not "courageous" in my opinion - and others here thought it took bravery and courage...it's just a point of view.

        The ESPY awards will have high ratings in July - on ABC....that same ABC that got the first exclusive interview with Jenner as a female.

        The best comments I've seen on this (and the phrase about the famous photographer is hilarious)....

        Does Caitlyn Jenner Really Deserve ESPY
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Early in the thread I said it was not "courageous" in my opinion - and others here thought it took bravery and courage...it's just a point of view.

          The ESPY awards will have high ratings in July - on ABC....that same ABC that got the first exclusive interview with Jenner as a female.

          The best comments I've seen on this (and the phrase about the famous photographer is hilarious)....
          I don't consider her any more or less courageous than Billie Jean King, who also won the award. They did set a precedent with that award that these types of sexuality issues would be a consideration.

          King didn't do much if anything for the gay community. She didn't want to divulge it because she figured it would affect her career and she had a homophobic family. Her career began in 1959 and she was forcefully "outed" in 1981 by a palimony suit brought against her. It still was many years later that she became involved in the LGBT community, long after she had won the ESPY award. She did a lot for women's sports though.

          Concerning the personal cost of concealing her sexuality for so many years, King said:

          I wanted to tell the truth but my parents were homophobic and I was in the closet. As well as that, I had people tell me that if I talked about what I was going through, it would be the end of the women's tour. I couldn't get a closet deep enough. I've got a homophobic family, a tour that will die if I come out, the world is homophobic and, yeah, I was homophobic. If you speak with gays, bisexuals, lesbians and transgenders, you will find a lot of homophobia because of the way we all grew up. One of my big goals was always to be honest with my parents and I couldn't be for a long time. I tried to bring up the subject but felt I couldn't. My mother would say, "We're not talking about things like that", and I was pretty easily stopped because I was reluctant anyway. I ended up with an eating disorder that came from trying to numb myself from my feelings. I needed to surrender far sooner than I did. At the age of 51, I was finally able to talk about it properly with my parents and no longer did I have to measure my words with them. That was a turning point for me as it meant I didn't have regrets any more.
          Their example of the woman who got early onset Altzeimers ... does it really take courage to get a disease? It's kind of something you have zero control over.
          Pat Summitt–the legendary Tennessee women’s basketball coach. Not only did she redefine women’s hoops, but she’s won more games than any other male or female in NCAA history. Sadly, her career was cut short when she was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer’s.
          The author of that article seems to disrespect Jenner's sports accomplishments because of his involvement with the "Kartrashians". I don't like them either, but that doesn't take anything away from Jenner's sports accomplishments and awards.

          But actually, I'm a sportsaphobe. I don't actually care what ESPN does or doesn't do. I hate sports.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Are Puma pants like Parachute pants or something?
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    lol, what's ALL THIS big writing shit, FOLLOWED by the the little writing shit, some funny stuff IT is. A NEW trend ?
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      lol, what's ALL THIS big writing shit, FOLLOWED by the the little writing shit, some funny stuff IT is. A NEW trend ?
      It's been around since 2003
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      lol, what's ALL THIS big writing shit, FOLLOWED by the the little writing shit, some funny stuff IT is. A NEW trend ?
      NEVER ASK THAT QUESTION! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Tarra said thaaat? LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author ubercancel
    The pursue of happiness.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    MAN! I just saw the trailer to the new show, and the BTS of the BTS behind the vanity fair photo, and things are going SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! The voice is still there, and the face is ROUGH.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      MAN! I just saw the trailer to the new show, and the BTS of the BTS behind the vanity fair photo, and things are going SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! The voice is still there, and the face is ROUGH.

      Steve
      Which goes to show just how much airbrushing was used for the Vanity Fair cover. The point is, Cait wants to be Cait and has the money to do that and it makes her happy. To me, she looks and sounds like Bruce Jenner in drag, but to each their own.

      I'm very happy that I don't have gender identity issues.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Same here about gender issues - it has to be tough to go through that.
        I think people should do what they want in life - and be who they want in life.

        Jenner has always been a really likeable guy. That - and the Kardashian connection - is the only reason he's well known today. Most ex-Olympic athletes from 40 years ago are not in the news or tabloids.

        The Vanity Fair cover set my teeth on edge (as my aunt used to say). It was a clearly manipulated photograph and all over the news media people were saying "how great she looks" and "I hope I look that good at age 65" - and I wondered if they were collectively stupid. I understand wanting to show the best possible image of the new "Caitlyn" - but that image was pure fiction.

        I think every bit of the "changeover' was carefully choreographed - including which network got the big interview...and awards the ESPY.

        I saw a clip from the upcoming reality show -expect it will bomb quickly. The exaggerated facial expressions, tossing of the hair, waving of the hands...looks like caricature of a female. But, then, she learned from the Kardashians...

        I almost feel sorry for Jenner - she's basking in this approval and limelight and I don't think many people have anything more than prurient interest in this story.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I saw a clip from the upcoming reality show -expect it will bomb quickly. The exaggerated facial expressions, tossing of the hair, waving of the hands...looks like caricature of a female. But, then, she learned from the Kardashians...

          I almost feel sorry for Jenner - she's basking in this approval and limelight and I don't think many people have anything more than prurient interest in this story.
          I feel sorry for her too. She has high expectations that this will make her happy and I'm not so sure it will. If I were her, I'd keep that winky for awhile to make absolutely certain. Silicone breasts can be removed and face it ... her face ain't all that feminine and neither is her voice, or her hands. I saw a pic of her taken not too long ago on the beach and judging from that photo, her body is nothing to write home about. It's what you would expect from a 65 year old man, who is now a 65 year old woman, at least in spirit.

          I don't think the docuseries will go anywhere. I saw the exaggerated facial expressions and trying to make those man hands look and move in a womanly way. It's all pure imitation.

          Makes me wonder just what the genetic/chromosome thing looks like with Jenner because I have seen transgenders who absolutely should have been born a woman, but sadly, weren't.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Meanwhile, back to real reality, Jenner is being sued by a second party in that deadly crash a few months back.

            http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/caitlyn-jenner-sued-party-malibu-crash/story?id=31635142
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Of course she'll be sued - she's the one with money and that's the American way.

              In spite of the tabloids, media and blogger claims about how the accident occurred - and how Jenner was to blame....he was not charged with any violations by authorities. I think the people are hoping for settlements.

              I have seen transgenders who absolutely should have been born a woman, but sadly, weren't.
              I've seen people like that, too, - and a few gay men who were as feminine as any women I've known.

              The exaggerated mannerisms remind me of a drag queen rather than a "born woman". I know that's not what she's going for and maybe with time she will tone it down.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                The exaggerated mannerisms remind me of a drag queen rather than a "born woman". I know that's not what she's going for and maybe with time she will tone it down.
                Well, if I were such a person wanting to go for that, I would expect more. People talk about the breasts being fake. Outside of counteracting testosterone, growing breasts, and some relatively subtle things, WHAT would the estrogen be good for? Oh SURE, in women with far less testosterone, and having it all their lives, estrogen is a big deal, but for a MTF? I doubt it is that big a deal. Most of the surgery is to undo the effects of testosterone, and emulate the effects of estrogenm because so much of the power is lost in the mid to late teens. Supposedly, the treatments have been going on for YEARS!

                And in that show about I am cait, it looks like almost nothing was done outside of what a cheap costume could do. I really wonder if this isn't some elaborate gimmick.

                Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Crocodile Dundee: &quot;It's a trap!
              I can't normally watch videos on my slow connection, so that's wasted on me.

              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Meanwhile, back to real reality, Jenner is being sued by a second party in that deadly crash a few months back.
              The cops have declined to charge him with anything, so not sure if their lawsuit will be successful. If the below is true, I can't see how the accident was his fault.

              The driver of that Lexus, Kim Howe, was killed after her vehicle was hit by a Hummer. The original story from the four-car pileup was that Howe, 69, collided with a Toyota Prius that had slowed down. Jenner then rear-ended Howe's Lexus, propelling the car into traffic.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                I don't believe the official investigation of the crash is closed and a recent article I read stated Jenner could still be charged. Usually when a person rear ends another vehicle they are at fault. At the very least it seems he was following too close.

                It just seems in very bad taste to be directly involved in a fatal car crash and then spend the next few months giving interviews about changing your sex, posing for the cover of a fashion magazine and starting a new reality show.

                By the way, Jenner was seen a couple times talking on his phone while driving after the crash. One was just three days after. :/
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  I don't believe the official investigation of the crash is closed and a recent article I read stated Jenner could still be charged. Usually when a person rear ends another vehicle they are at fault. At the very least it seems he was following too close.

                  It just seems in very bad taste to be directly involved in a fatal car crash and then spend the next few months giving interviews about changing your sex, posing for the cover of a fashion magazine and starting a new reality show.
                  Sure ... she should just fold up and become obscure because of a crash. Life does go on. She rear ended a vehicle that had just rear ended another vehicle, according to the first report, and no charges have been brought against Jenner. They would have been by now, had they been warranted.

                  In addition, the first suit is being brought by wealthy, long independent, adult stepchildren:

                  “These two plaintiffs are financially independent, successful, adult stepchildren, ages 57 and 60, who have lived out-of-state in Maine and New York for decades -- who were not financially dependent upon the decedent for ‘the necessities of life,’ ” the court document states.
                  At the time of the crash, police said they had trouble finding Howe's next of kin.

                  Howe's death certificate also identified her friend, Lisa Ungar, as the one who claimed her and got her ashes.
                  They obviously a golden financial opportunity because of Jenner's wealth and celebrity.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Sure ... she should just fold up and become obscure because of a crash. Life does go on.
                    No, she shouldn't just fold up and disappear, but showing a little class would be nice. Hate to say that really, because I am a fan of Jenner as an athlete. I met him before he won the gold medal at San Jose City College back in 1974.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      No, she shouldn't just fold up and disappear, but showing a little class would be nice. Hate to say that really, because I am a fan of Jenner as an athlete. I met him before he won the gold medal at San Jose City College back in 1974.
                      Class like how? Give up his new show. Cancel promotions. Stop being a woman? He has expressed his profound sorrow for the accident numerous times, but that won't satisfy those adult stepchildren who were uninvolved in the woman's life, until they saw dollar signs.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            I feel sorry for her too. She has high expectations that this will make her happy and I'm not so sure it will. If I were her, I'd keep that winky for awhile to make absolutely certain. Silicone breasts can be removed and face it ... her face ain't all that feminine and neither is her voice, or her hands. I saw a pic of her taken not too long ago on the beach and judging from that photo, her body is nothing to write home about. It's what you would expect from a 65 year old man, who is now a 65 year old woman, at least in spirit.

            I don't think the docuseries will go anywhere. I saw the exaggerated facial expressions and trying to make those man hands look and move in a womanly way. It's all pure imitation.

            Makes me wonder just what the genetic/chromosome thing looks like with Jenner because I have seen transgenders who absolutely should have been born a woman, but sadly, weren't.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Same here about gender issues - it has to be tough to go through that.
          I think people should do what they want in life - and be who they want in life.

          Jenner has always been a really likeable guy. That - and the Kardashian connection - is the only reason he's well known today. Most ex-Olympic athletes from 40 years ago are not in the news or tabloids.

          The Vanity Fair cover set my teeth on edge (as my aunt used to say). It was a clearly manipulated photograph and all over the news media people were saying "how great she looks" and "I hope I look that good at age 65" - and I wondered if they were collectively stupid. I understand wanting to show the best possible image of the new "Caitlyn" - but that image was pure fiction.

          I think every bit of the "changeover' was carefully choreographed - including which network got the big interview...and awards the ESPY.

          I saw a clip from the upcoming reality show -expect it will bomb quickly. The exaggerated facial expressions, tossing of the hair, waving of the hands...looks like caricature of a female. But, then, she learned from the Kardashians...

          I almost feel sorry for Jenner - she's basking in this approval and limelight and I don't think many people have anything more than prurient interest in this story.
          Yeah, I asked my 80yr. old mom what she thought of Caiytlin.

          She said that she respected Caiytlin's struggle and thought it was a good thing to pursue it. If it made her feel good

          But she wasn't sure why it had to be constantly broadcasted day in and day out.

          Personally, I think that its all about the "Me, Me, Me" mentality. And I think our Society has really gravitated towards this mantra in the last couple of decades.

          Many of us parents would never do what she has done to her children. And one of hers is still a Minor.

          Jenner is 65 years old and could die of cancer next year. But yet she says she has been waiting for this moment her whole Life.

          Jeesh, Jenner has an average life expectancy of just 12 more years. Caitlyn, you should have done this 30 years ago instead of marrying and having children


          Like I said it seems to be just about him and him only. Which is fine. To each his own. Really. Iam the first to fight for peoples' rights to do as they please as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

          But I know I would take a bullet for my kids and that would also include abstaining myself from something like a sex change .

          I know for some that may seem judgmental.

          But I am just applying a situation like this to my own Life.

          If I have to suffer to make my kids have a better and more joyous life ( and not be harassed and made embarrassed because of my actions) then I will suffer.

          I'm old school like that
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            But she wasn't sure why it had to be constantly broadcasted day in and day out.

            Personally, I think that its all about the "Me, Me, Me" mentality. And I think our Society has really gravitated towards this mantra in the last couple of decades.

            Many of us parents would never do what she has done to her children. And one of hers is still a Minor.

            Jenner is 65 years old and could die of cancer next year. But yet she says she has been waiting for this moment her whole Life.

            Jeesh, Jenner has an average life expectancy of just 12 more years. Caitlyn, you should have done this 30 years ago instead of marrying and having children


            Like I said it seems to be just about him and him only. Which is fine. To each his own. Really. Iam the first to fight for peoples' rights to do as they please as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

            But I know I would take a bullet for my kids and that would also include abstaining myself from something like a sex change .

            I know for some that may seem judgmental.

            But I am just applying a situation like this to my own Life.

            If I have to suffer to make my kids have a better and more joyous life ( and not be harassed and made embarrassed because of my actions) then I will suffer.

            I'm old school like that
            Well, I heard a crazy prediction, and it has come to pass. Given the type of people we are talking about, it puts the whole idea in doubt. You start wondering what the REAL motives are. As for life expectancy? some lose the whole picture in the idea. Caitlyn(sp?) will NEVER be really female, and certainly hasn't lived as one. The stats most closely tied to cait are MALE, so the life expectancy IS shorter. Maybe cait figures that "becoming female" will somehow add years to life.

            But WHY would someone make such DRASTIC changes so late in life?

            Now if I were doing this, I certainly would want it to be faster, and it CAN be. A lot of people simply wait for the surgery. Kim Petras had the surgery done at 16 for a number of reasons, and wanted the hormones ASAP. The hormones were available so late merely because Germany had laws against giving them to minors for this sort of thing. Kim actually fought for an exceptin and got one. And WHO KNOWS? Maybe Kim might actually be under the female stats because of the hormones, and the life.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Well, I heard a crazy prediction, and it has come to pass. Given the type of people we are talking about, it puts the whole idea in doubt. You start wondering what the REAL motives are. As for life expectancy? some lose the whole picture in the idea. Caitlyn(sp?) will NEVER be really female, and certainly hasn't lived as one. The stats most closely tied to cait are MALE, so the life expectancy IS shorter. Maybe cait figures that "becoming female" will somehow add years to life.

              But WHY would someone make such DRASTIC changes so late in life?

              Now if I were doing this, I certainly would want it to be faster, and it CAN be. A lot of people simply wait for the surgery. Kim Petras had the surgery done at 16 for a number of reasons, and wanted the hormones ASAP. The hormones were available so late merely because Germany had laws against giving them to minors for this sort of thing. Kim actually fought for an exceptin and got one. And WHO KNOWS? Maybe Kim might actually be under the female stats because of the hormones, and the life.

              Steve
              Caitlyn Jenner sends HER deepest regrets that her OWN personal JOUNEY and transition isn't going FAST enough to suit YOU. Get over IT.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                  I agree with him. "Gawker factor" is a good way to describe why we even care.

                  Bradley Manning gets a sex change, and we don't think it's courageous. He's not on TV.
                  OK, maybe he is different. All the other transgender people aren't getting covers of magazines, and being called courageous.

                  Gawking is what most of us are doing.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Gawking is what most of us are doing.
                    Personally, I'm trying to think of a single subject on the planet that I could care about less, and after a week of contemplation I have found one. That would be the NBA Finals.

                    This Caitlyn Jenner story holds no fascination for me. I just don't care. I'm too busy worrying about my own sex-change operation to be concerned about anyone else.

                    The only good thing in my case is I don't have to worry about dong removal. I'm hung like a Ken doll - so, no problemo.

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      Personally, I'm trying to think of a single subject on the planet that I could care about less, and after a week of contemplation I have found one. That would be the NBA Finals.

                      This Caitlyn Jenner story holds no fascination for me. I just don't care. I'm too busy worrying about my own sex-change operation to be concerned about anyone else.

                      The only good thing in my case is I don't have to worry about dong removal. I'm hung like a Ken doll - so, no problemo.

                      Cheers. - Frank


                      Don't they have to change you into a human first, Frank, before you start worrying about gender?
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                        Don't they have to change you into a human first, Frank, before you start worrying about gender?
                        That's cold. I'm not feeling the love. :-)

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      . I'm hung like a Ken doll - so, no problemo.

                      Cheers. - Frank
                      Don't feel bad, so is my wife.
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        Don't feel bad, so is my wife.
                        I have no idea about how to respond to that. None.

                        Yes - that is a first!

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      Personally, I'm trying to think of a single subject on the planet that I could care about less, and after a week of contemplation I have found one. That would be the NBA Finals.
                      I can think of one other thing that interests me less ... that's who does or doesn't win the ESPY awards that I wasn't even aware existed before the big broohaha. lol.
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      Personally, I'm trying to think of a single subject on the planet that I could care about less, and after a week of contemplation I have found one. That would be the NBA Finals.
                      Funny, to me it has always been the NHL Finals or do people call it The Stanford's Cup.

                      Btw, who is Stanford ?? Was it named after the University ?

                      Anyway, can't figure out the allure of a bunch of grown men chasing around a little black puck.
                      Let alone paying $25 for a ticket to watch it !!
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Funny, to me it has always been the NHL Finals or do people call it The Stanford's Cup.
                        That's Lord Stanley's Cup referred to as The Stanley Cup

                        Anyway, can't figure out the allure of a bunch of grown men chasing around a little black puck.
                        If I have to explain it to you, it would be lost on you. At 8 PM on NBC will be Game 5 of a 2-2 series that has been excellent with each game ending by a goal. If you really want to know what all the hoopla is about, watch the first 20 minute period. You'll get a feel for why hockey is the most exciting of all team sports. Nothing else comes remotely close for edge of your seat excitement. Or, you can just continue to, "not figure it out." lol
                        Let alone paying $25 for a ticket to watch it !!
                        In the 1970's, maybe. Tickets for tonight's game start at $600 for standing room and front row seats are going for $12,000. Platinum box seats are $25,000 and can be purchased on StubHub.com.

                        "Game On." :-)

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                          <snip>If you really want to know what all the hoopla is about, watch the first 20 minute period. You'll get a feel for why hockey is the most exciting of all team sports. Nothing else comes remotely close for edge of your seat excitement. <snip>
                          I think we have an "Honorary Canadian" here.
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                          Project HERE.

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                          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                            I think we have an "Honorary Canadian" here.
                            I've been called a helluva lot worse. :-)

                            Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Caitlyn Jenner sends HER deepest regrets that her OWN personal JOUNEY and transition isn't going FAST enough to suit YOU. Get over IT.
                WOW Caitlin! You made NO sense!
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              • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Caitlyn Jenner sends HER deepest regrets that her OWN personal JOUNEY and transition isn't going FAST enough to suit YOU. Get over IT.
                lol Suzanne - tell us how you REALLY feel !
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            • Profile picture of the author Cali16
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


              But WHY would someone make such DRASTIC changes so late in life?
              Does it really matter? Perhaps because it took this long for her to decide that the benefits outweighed the risk. Or perhaps because she got tired of living what felt like a lie. Or perhaps simply because she decided "better late than never". The potential reasons for waiting until now are endless.

              Changing your gender isn't exactly a small decision, and the ramifications, especially for such a public person, can be significant. I would imagine many individuals in her shoes waited years or even decades before finally deciding to make the transition. I really can't imagine how awful it must be to go through life feeling you're in the wrong body in terms of gender.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                Does it really matter? Perhaps because it took this long for her to decide that the benefits outweighed the risk. Or perhaps because she got tired of living what felt like a lie. Or perhaps simply because she decided "better late than never". The potential reasons for waiting until now are endless.

                Changing your gender isn't exactly a small decision, and the ramifications, especially for such a public person, can be significant. I would imagine many individuals in her shoes waited years or even decades before finally deciding to make the transition. I really can't imagine how awful it must be to go through life feeling you're in the wrong body in terms of gender.
                Ironically, the reason why I stated that question is because it puts all in doubt. Yeah, it takes a long time, there are endless things that could go wrong, and it is a major change, but there is a kind of parabolic curve. The best time to see the best effect would be as a little kid. But in the scheme of things, they may see little benefit, and there is money and the part of being a minor, and uncertainty, etc... I could certainly see why they might wait even until the 40s, due to apprehension and ability. But, by then, it has started on a downward slope due to aging, healing time, and life expectancy.

                And DON'T go using the "public person" excuse. In Jenner's case, that is GARBAGE! A LOT of people didn't know who he was. A LOT of others wouldn't so quickly associate the name or look. AND, to put icing on the cake, Jenner is MILKING THIS FOR ALL IT IS WORTH!!!!!!!! So the public idea here is NOT a deterrent! It is an ENCOURAGEMENT! Was jenners whole idea here to build up to that new series?

                As for imagining what it would feel like. Yeah, I have made some bad choices, and wished I could change certain aspects, or did change aspects of my life. GENDER was never one of them, but I can see how it could affect others. Still, it often ends up with affecting others, which I am against. And jenner is talking about being "the new normal". Normal means prevalent, as well as accepted. Despite any acceptance, WHY would anyone wish that this is prevalent? HERE is how dictionary.com defines this term:

                conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
                "it's quite normal for puppies to bolt their food"
                synonyms: usual, standard, ordinary, customary, conventional, habitual, accustomed, expected, wonted; More
                2.
                technical
                (of a line, ray, or other linear feature) intersecting a given line or surface at right angles.
                noun
                1.
                the usual, average, or typical state or condition.
                "her temperature was above normal"
                2.
                technical
                a line at right angles to a given line or surface.
                And I wonder when OC is going to claim to provide for it, and does medicare do so? In our prisons, they actually provide for this! IN PRISONS!!!!!!!!! What benefit is there THERE, outside of a MTF maybe getting a lighter sentence and being placed with women?

                As people have said, the costs are ongoing. And there is a lot of reason why men would get testosterone forever, and women, of course, now often get estrogen forever as well.

                HECK, I have long said that they now have a drug, cialis(aka propecia, proscar, Finasteride), that has a known side effect that is rather weird. It distorts, and its PURPOSE is to distort, the proper metabolism and balance of testosterone! For a MAN, that is likely OK. It is temporary and outside of being less anabolic, and preventing hair loss, there are no known problems. The THREE problems are that the man might have a pregnant wife/friend, she might be having a boy, and he might get some of the tablet on her. If she is having a girl, there is likely no problem. If she is having a boy, the boy may come out deformed or, if affected early enough, will appear to be a girl physically. If the person latter decides to appear to be fully a woman, she can simply take estrogen. I don't know of anything doing the opposite, but it causes one to wonder that, if this is real, this may be drug related. It is a complicated dance, but science currently says that nearly all of it comes down to the HPGA axis. Cialis simply invalidates the G part of the equation and if things aren't switched just so, the default is female. Of course that is simply the body, and maybe the brain. It doesn't change the gonads, and testicles need to be below body temperature. So the person would be infertile, and such an affected male would need estrogen therapy to grow breasts.

                OH, and propecia is relatively new. I don't think they knew about this process when jenner was born, though jenner claims that such a problem would have been welcomed.

                Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ashiqul88
    I hope my head become empty next 2020 ?
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ashiqul88 View Post

      I hope my head become empty next 2020 ?
      It appears that you are off to a good start and should reach your goal in a few minutes.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW someone called the rush limbaugh show a couple weeks ago to complain he was a black person born in a white body, and nobody believes him. I got a kick out of it, and assumed he was kidding. IMAGINE my big shock when I found out that a white woman has said the SAME thing, and works for the NAACP!!!!!!!! OH? You don't believe me? OK, OK! FAIR ENOUGH! HERE are some interviews with her! BTW here are her PARENTS:


    Apparently her CLOSEST ties to african americans is an adopted step brother is a black person.

    Those that speak of a man "becoming" a woman, or a woman "becoming" a man, MUST agree with this behavior, and yet it turns a WHOLE bunch of laws on their heads! Laws that, mostly, THEY passed!

    So she kinked her hair, wears it as she does, and got more tanned to look more closely to a black maybe, but you can see she is caucasion and has like parents, etc.... SHADES OF SOUL MAN!!!!!!

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Those that speak of a man "becoming" a woman, or a woman "becoming" a man, MUST agree with this behavior, and yet it turns a WHOLE bunch of laws on their heads! Laws that, mostly, THEY passed!

      Steve
      Transgender does not turn laws on their heads. Stop making stuff up. As for Rachael Dolezal, who cares? The NAACP has said that race is not a criteria for her job there.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Transgender does not turn laws on their heads. Stop making stuff up. As for Rachael Dolezal, who cares? The NAACP has said that race is not a criteria for her job there.
        NO, it DOES turn the law on its head! CASE IN POINT? It USED to be that you would get in trouble, and certainly have SOME punishment, if you were a man and went into a woman's restroom on purpose. NOW, it may be OK if you say you "feel like a woman"! There ARE perjury rules concerning various forms and claims/statements made in various ways, and they are ALSO now often overlooked.

        SOULMAN was a story about how a guy got turned down for a scholarship because he was white, and he found that taking a pill would darken his skin substantially, temporarily. He reapplied, and got the scholarship, as a black person. NOW, do YOU think such a thing should be allowed? Given the law changes, and preferences, and the fact that we are supposed to be "BEYOND RACISM", I say it SHOULD be allowed!

        HECK, elective hormones, certain major surgery, and certain elective surgery for minors, has ALWAYS been against the law, but they are changing the laws for this. I heard of similar fights in the US, but Kim Petras in germany had to fight to get hormones and the surgery so early.

        So we have laws preferring certain races, and certain sexes. People are demanding that they be recognized as the sex they want to determine. People are trying to claim the same ability with regard to race. And YOU don't see how changing a characteristic used for treatment under the law affects the law? OK, why did you ever say anything about the supreme court, or the "rights" issue, like with "gay marriage"?

        I am NOT crazy about the stupid restroom laws they have. If they want to gear the restroom for a certain sex, or put that sign on the door, people should honor it. I was once at an event, in line for the restroom, and a woman actually asked me if there was something different about that restroom, because all the lines, for the mens restrooms, were shorter. NOPE, NO SECRET! I read studies on this. Women tend to make 33% more trips to the restroom. They tend to stay longer, and use it for makeup and talking. SO, all things being equal, you EXPECT the women's line to be longer! THEN, the men's room often has a number of urinals, which take less space, and are cheaper, which would make the men's line shorter. And the urinals often take less time, which make things even shorter. There may be other reasons, but that is good for a start. But it was funny to even be asked!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          [much blah blah blah snipped]

          I am NOT crazy about the stupid restroom laws they have. If they want to gear the restroom for a certain sex, or put that sign on the door, people should honor it. I was once at an event, in line for the restroom, and a woman actually asked me if there was something different about that restroom, because all the lines, for the mens restrooms, were shorter. NOPE, NO SECRET! I read studies on this. Women tend to make 33% more trips to the restroom. They tend to stay longer, and use it for makeup and talking. SO, all things being equal, you EXPECT the women's line to be longer! THEN, the men's room often has a number of urinals, which take less space, and are cheaper, which would make the men's line shorter. And the urinals often take less time, which make things even shorter. There may be other reasons, but that is good for a start. But it was funny to even be asked!

          Steve
          Stevie ... Caitlyn has a penis. By any reasonable measure, Caitlyn is a transvestite as long as he's packing a penis and not a woman. A person with a penis should not be allowed to use a women's restroom no matter what they wear.

          If Caitlyn has the full operation and is in fact, sporting ladies parts instead of a penis, then she should use the women's rest room. It would be highly inappropriate for her to use a men's room at that point. She could not stand at a urinal to take a whizz and there is not enough privacy in a man's room for a woman. Men don't seem to mind whipping their weenies out in front of each other, but women's restrooms are not like that.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            A person with a penis should not be allowed to use a women's restroom no matter what they wear.
            Courts have judged in some areas that you are WRONG! SORRY! The mere FEELING can be enough to require them to be allowed!

            If Caitlyn has the full operation and is in fact, sporting ladies parts instead of a penis, then she should use the women's rest room. It would be highly inappropriate for her to use a men's room at that point. She could not stand at a urinal to take a whizz and there is not enough privacy in a man's room for a woman. Men don't seem to mind whipping their weenies out in front of each other, but women's restrooms are not like that.
            I imagine that the NON urinal part of a woman's restroom is nearly EXACTLY like a mens! And I have NEVER seen a man so obviously "whipping their weenie". Of course, I am not one to be looking anyway! Caitlyn will, in that area, NEVER have "ladies parts" even if they appear to be such. There is a BIG difference between the area in a public bathroom, and the general area in a locker room. YEP, the toilets are generally relatively private. Even a lot of urinals at least have partitions. It would be difficult to see anything unless you tried and that would be too obvious.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Courts have judged in some areas that you are WRONG! SORRY! The mere FEELING can be enough to require them to be allowed!

              I imagine that the NON urinal part of a woman's restroom is nearly EXACTLY like a mens! And I have NEVER seen a man so obviously "whipping their weenie". Of course, I am not one to be looking anyway! Caitlyn will, in that area, NEVER have "ladies parts" even if they appear to be such. There is a BIG difference between the area in a public bathroom, and the general area in a locker room. YEP, the toilets are generally relatively private. Even a lot of urinals at least have partitions. It would be difficult to see anything unless you tried and that would be too obvious.

              Steve
              All parts of a woman's bathroom are non urinal parts. People who undergo the operation have been ruled legally to be the sex which they have been surgically reassigned. I personally don't care who uses a women's bathroom, as they have individual private stalls, so I wouldn't know what they have under their skirts. And in the case of one stall bathrooms that are large enough for one person at a time, I think they all should be unisex. Who cares who goes in before or after you.

              But at this time, these types of laws are up to the states and often the private or public facilities in question to make decisions on who uses a restroom or doesn't.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Surreal - you think Dolezal's lies and lawsuits are not important but you care about Jenner's use of bathrooms?

                This thread is tracking through the meadows picking up daisies....
                Signature
                Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

                I'm going to work on being less condescending
                (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Surreal - you think Dolezal's lies and lawsuits are not important but you care about Jenner's use of bathrooms?

                  This thread is tracking through the meadows picking up daisies....
                  Why would I spend energy caring about someone I just became aware of who is a liar? The world is full of liars. Should I care about them?

                  FYI: I don't give a moment's thought to Jenner's use of bathrooms. I'm sure she's able to handle the situation herself without any energy spent by me caring about it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                    Banned
                    I heard an interesting point of view over the weekend. If Jenner can be a woman, surely Dolezal can be black.

                    Food for thought?

                    Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      I heard an interesting point of view over the weekend. If Jenner can be a woman, surely Dolezal can be black.

                      Food for thought?

                      Cheers. - Frank
                      Sure ... why not? ... and I can be young and hot and land a billionaire sugar daddy. lol
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        Frank -

                        I heard that, too. The theory was Dolezal is "suffering from" being "trans-racial".

                        Ever since I heard that I've been trying to figure out how to become "trans rich" and make that sound realistic.
                        Signature
                        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

                        I'm going to work on being less condescending
                        (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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                        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                          Sure ... why not? ... and I can be young and hot and land a billionaire sugar daddy. lol
                          You are young and hot and going to land a billionaire who looks like Johnny Depp. (Not Johnny cause he's taken, I think. Or, facing ten years in AU prison.)



                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                          Frank -

                          I heard that, too. The theory was Dolezal is "suffering from" being "trans-racial".

                          Ever since I heard that I've been trying to figure out how to become "trans rich" and make that sound realistic.
                          Go to Vegas and trash up expensive Suites?
                          Signature

                          "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                          Frank -

                          I heard that, too. The theory was Dolezal is "suffering from" being "trans-racial".

                          Ever since I heard that I've been trying to figure out how to become "trans rich" and make that sound realistic.
                          I think it's a legit disorder then because I too am trans rich.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                          Frank -

                          I heard that, too. The theory was Dolezal is "suffering from" being "trans-racial".

                          Ever since I heard that I've been trying to figure out how to become "trans rich" and make that sound realistic.
                          Ok ... now I'm officially engaged in the Rachael Dolezal story. She did an interview and would not give a black or white answer to the simple question of which race is she and when did she start lying about her race.

                          She says "I identify as black."

                          I just have to laugh now. People with sexual identification problems are not scarce. People with race identification problems? Well, apparently, there's one. I still don't care much about this story, except that it's really amusing to me how delusional this woman is. She calls her brother (black and adopted by her parents), her son. Her other son is black, as she was married to a black man at one point, and she even has a fake black dad. He's really black, but he's really not her dad. lol.

                          But Ok ...she wants to live as black, so be it, but it doesn't seem to be working well for her right now. She's resigned from NAACP and her part time professor of African studies job and maybe some of her other stuff as well. What is she going to do now?

                          In the Today interview, she explained that her 'identification with black people' went back to when she was five years old.

                          'I was drawing self-portraits with the brown crayon instead of the peach crayon, and the black curly hair.'

                          WHAT?

                          I started laughing when she said this, and then literally became almost hysterical.
                          Tendering her resignation, Ms Dolezal expressed the hope that she 'can drive at the core of definitions of race, ethnicity, culture, self-determination, personal agency and ultimately, empowerment.'

                          Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

                          Please, Rachel, I can't take any more of this.
                          Rachel Dolezal has committed an appalling act of deception that deserves every heap of abuse now raining down on her head.

                          But there is one positive thing to come out of her absurd, forked-tongue antics: I've never seen black and white Americans more united on any race issue since I first came here to work ten years ago.

                          Everyone seems to agree that the only statement this pathetically disingenuous wastrel should now release contains the following ten words:

                          'I'm Rachel Dolezal and I identify as a lying, deluded idiot.'
                          PIERS MORGAN: I identify Rachel Dolezal as a lying, deluded idiot* | Daily Mail Online

                          In a series of interviews last year Rachel Dolezal told an Eastern Washington University art student that her ex-husband expected her to look like a white woman.

                          "She said it was this very oppressive experience where she had to deny her blackness," said Lauren Campbell, who is black.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            I think it's funny to see the media buying into this "she felt she was black" - she's lying. Her parents and adopted brothers all claim she NEVER identified as black growing up - she NEVER 'drew herself with brown crayons'.

                            She lied for years - she played the victim card for years - and every report she filed with police was found to be "not credible" when investigated.

                            Interesting comment:

                            Dolezal has been described as "the most spectacular example of the growing phenomenon of people posing as victims" by English journalist Dominic Lawson, who describes this as a "consequence of a culture which portrays victimhood as a form of moral superiority".
                            People like Dolezal can't pull off such a stunt without those in academia and in "cause organizations" willing to believe anyone with a good "victim" story. I'm sure much of the anger toward her is from those embarrassed to have been fooled by her.

                            She now spinning new lies to explain the old - and it's surprising how many in the media seem to be buying into it.
                            Signature
                            Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

                            I'm going to work on being less condescending
                            (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              She now spinning new lies to explain the old - and it's surprising how many in the media seem to be buying into it.
                              I've yet to read any positive press on her story, but I just started reading it yesterday. Most think her story is bizarre and then there's the added twist of her brother being charged with a sex offense. I think all in all, the whole family is pretty dysfunctional. She probably would have done better just to resign all her posts and keep her mouth shut because she really sounds like a nut case now. I don't think many are buying her story.

                              In addition, she probably has done more harm for any black causes she's involved in because she's a fraud. She also hasn't done any favors to people with a gender identity problem which is a long established disorder affecting plenty of people. I've yet to see another "race identity" disorder before this.
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                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                I've yet to read any positive press on her story, but I just started reading it yesterday. Most think her story is bizarre and then there's the added twist of her brother being charged with a sex offense. I think all in all, the whole family is pretty dysfunctional. She probably would have done better just to resign all her posts and keep her mouth shut because she really sounds like a nut case now. I don't think many are buying her story.
                                Yeah, there isn't ANY way it looks good. They CLAIM she never "tried" to get a scholarship based on her lie, but she DID design an application made to HEAVILY imply that she was BLACK! She got the scholarship, and people were surprised when she showed up. Of course, she has an EASY answer in that she apparently didn't CLAIM to be black, etc...

                                Anyway, the best her proponents can say is that she appeared to do the job they expected of a black in the position and that they forgive her, and don't have complaints. Of course those that AREN'T on her side have plenty of ammo.

                                Steve
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                          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Ok ... now I'm officially engaged in the Rachael Dolezal story. She did an interview and would not give a black or white answer to the simple question of which race is she and when did she start lying about her race.

                            She says "I identify as black."

                            I just have to laugh now. People with sexual identification problems are not scarce. People with race identification problems? Well, apparently, there's one. I still don't care much about this story, except that it's really amusing to me how delusional this woman is. She calls her brother (black and adopted by her parents), her son. Her other son is black, as she was married to a black man at one point, and she even has a fake black dad. He's really black, but he's really not her dad. lol.

                            But Ok ...she wants to live as black, so be it, but it doesn't seem to be working well for her right now. She's resigned from NAACP and her part time professor of African studies job and maybe some of her other stuff as well. What is she going to do now?







                            PIERS MORGAN: I identify Rachel Dolezal as a lying, deluded idiot* | Daily Mail Online



                            WOW!

                            "Tendering her resignation, Ms Dolezal expressed the hope that she 'can drive at the core of definitions of race, ethnicity, culture, self-determination, personal agency and ultimately, empowerment.'"

                            GIVE ME A BREAK! Regarding the general idea of race, everyone agrees! Culture is kind of a superset that includes part of ethnicity. They are separate from, but may have a decent intersection with race. So the three may be partially related, to a degree, but none has any direct relation to the others. As for the rest? TOTALLY SEPARATE, and it is up to you, nobody else cares!!!!

                            BUT, like you said, she is deluded! She wants us to think that she really believes that her delusion is a problem with US!

                            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            A person with a penis should not be allowed to use a women's restroom no matter what they wear.
            What's the fear factor? Assault with a deadly, uh, I meant assault with a dead weapon?

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              What's the fear factor? Assault with a deadly, uh, I meant assault with a dead weapon?

              Cheers. - Frank
              It's the labeling. It says women's rest room and to the best of my knowledge, women don't have a penis. lol.

              Have a Unisex bathroom where anything goes and I'd be fine with that. Actually, when it comes right down to it, if the person is dressed as a woman, I wouldn't be likely to know what's hanging or not, so I don't see it as an issue really. But a lot of women would. There was this case of a transgender at Planet Fitness who used the women's locker room and a woman complained to the gym and their headquarters and they canceled the complainer's membership because they have a policy of tolerance.

              I personally would not be comfortable undressing in front and seeing someone undress in a locker room that had male equipment. Sorry. That's just too much to ask. I don't even like to undress in front of other "real" women.
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              • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                Banned
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                I personally would not be comfortable undressing in front and seeing someone undress in a locker room that had male equipment. Sorry. That's just too much to ask. I don't even like to undress in front of other "real" women.
                Butch up! Literally.

                Cheers. - Frank
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