Windows 10, this is probably a deal-breaker for me - Windows 10 Upgrades Cannot Be Stopped

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Windows 10 introduces something new and highly unpleasant for its millions of consumers: the complete loss of control.

This revelation comes as Microsoft drip feeds nuggets of information ahead of Windows 10's July 29th release and it is sure to spark anger and frustration as awareness grows. In a nutshell all upgraders to Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro (whether free or paid) will be forced to install every feature, patch and fix Microsoft throws at them or have their security updates cut off.
Bold is mine.

I am currently looking at dual-booting with Linux Mint to see if I can run my business (and play ) from there.

Time will tell.

Windows 10 Upgrades Cannot Be Stopped


Joe Mobley
  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

    Bold is mine.

    I am currently looking at dual-booting with Linux Mint to see if I can run my business (and play ) from there.

    Time will tell.

    Windows 10 Upgrades Cannot Be Stopped


    Joe Mobley
    This from another article. Conflicting

    "The updates are intended as a necessary plumbing change to allow Windows 7 SP1 and Windows 8.1 users to upgrade to Windows 10. The updates don't necessarily mean anyone will be forced to upgrade, just that the changes are required should a person choose to do so. And, it's possible that the Windows Update modifications will be used for other things in the future, so, Joseph says, "This update is applicable to your systems even if you're not planning to migrate to Windows 10, so don't think you can skip it." He later states that there are significant improvements in this Windows Update upgrade and those changes are important."

    Source: Patch Tuesday: Microsoft Explains the Windows 10 Upgrade Plumbing Delivered in April's Releases | Patch Tuesday content from Windows IT Pro

    Now I have looked at an official video on Youtube about windows 10 and did not find it to be daunting at all. They have integrated some of the tiling (I have 8.1 anyway but chose to go with the free shell program for the desktop which makes it perform like 7) with the desktop start menu and you have your start button back. Access to your programs are through that start menu again. Personally have not got a problem with it.

    Incidently: The free windows shell program which will make your computer usable in the familiar 7 fashion already states that it has support for 10. http://www.classicshell.net/

    My only concern is that I have access to my programs, files and folders and that those programs work.

    I think you should not worry about this and embrace the evil Microsoft. :-) The more stable and functional it is the better.

    It's only a matter of time until your computer breaks and you will be forced to go with the new stuff anyway.

    If it is enforced though (and I doubt it) Sal's not going to like it. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I think you'e missing the whole point of Windows 10 using the cloud.

    Think of it like Adobe Photoshop CC, the updates are automatic, you'll always have the newest version.

    I'm sure within 2 years MS will be doing cloud subscription pricing similar to Adobe.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I'm sure within 2 years MS will be doing cloud subscription pricing similar to Adobe.
      They already started doing that with MS Office a few years ago. I'm sure WIndows is next.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        They already started doing that with MS Office a few years ago. I'm sure WIndows is next.
        That could make or break MS since they've trained everyone for the last 20 years to buy an OS when they buy a new PC which might only happen every 3 or 4 years instead of monthly/yearly subscription payments.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        They already started doing that with MS Office a few years ago. I'm sure WIndows is next.
        That could EASILY be THE mistake that topples their empire! MOST of their empire is held together by ONE THREAD! That is WINDOWS! If THAT topples, then MS OFFICE will topple more than it has! SQL SERVER could be NEXT! AD could be NEXT! That could destroy the CORPORATE market! And what happens THEN? VS could disappear! and that could topple IIS! THAT could get rid of BIZTALK! If THAT happens, it might be time to close up shop! GEE, one STUPID idea created J++ and one lawsuit wiped it out. They tried to come up with a client side proprietary language and FAILED there TOO! They really are losing the game.

        JUST TODAY I heard yet ANOTHER guy, a slaesperson talking to some old people at an office store, saying that XP was the best, 7 was OK, and 8 was a mistake. He said hold for 10, you can upgrade to 10. I wonder how many are going to judge M/S by this ONE as yet UNSEEN product!

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        They already started doing that with MS Office a few years ago. I'm sure WIndows is next.
        Yep - I use Office under that plan. Adobe's implementation is much more elegant, but the MS system does work.

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          That could EASILY be THE mistake that topples their empire! MOST of their empire is held together by ONE THREAD! That is WINDOWS! If THAT topples, then MS OFFICE will topple more than it has!

          Actually, I don't think it was a mistake at all. It's an improvement. I like this option much better. Instead of dropping $400-500 every few years to get the latest version of Office, I'm paying something like $85/yr and I always have the latest version.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            Actually, I don't think it was a mistake at all. It's an improvement. I like this option much better. Instead of dropping $400-500 every few years to get the latest version of Office, I'm paying something like $85/yr and I always have the latest version.
            I don't know why people care about the latest version of office. I'm sure if I could use Word + Excel from Windows 95 there'd be nothing "new" that I really needed from them.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I think you'e missing the whole point of Windows 10 using the cloud.

      Think of it like Adobe Photoshop CC, the updates are automatic, you'll always have the newest version.
      My Creative Cloud subscription does not update automatically. It asks me if I want to update any individual app in the package. Not sure if that's a setting I chose, but that is how I prefer it.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    SUFFICE IT TO SAY, linux is nipping at its heels. I have said this a lot, BUT..... When I started, people didn't listen to me, and it was NOWHERE to be seen! In 4 years, it DOMINATED the big to mid computer industry. HP, SUN, IBM, DEC, MIPS, APPLE, etc.... Within another 7-8 years, it took over small webservers. Within 10 years it all but took over the IoT! It now supports more CPUs than any OS in all of history. OH, and did I mention? It has done windows for over about 20 years and now has variants that look like windows and even have windows type software running on them?

    So YEAH, M/S should WATCH IT! MOST of the software I now run can EASILY run natively on linux. Nearly all of the rest could run under an emulator. I wonder WHEN M/S is going to make one mistake too many, but lately they keep getting closer! Heck, I run a lot of windows versions of Linux software now!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      SUFFICE IT TO SAY, linux is nipping at its heels. I have said this a lot, BUT..... When I started, people didn't listen to me, and it was NOWHERE to be seen! In 4 years, it DOMINATED the big to mid computer industry. HP, SUN, IBM, DEC, MIPS, APPLE, etc.... Within another 7-8 years, it took over small webservers. Within 10 years it all but took over the IoT! It now supports more CPUs than any OS in all of history. OH, and did I mention? It has done windows for over about 20 years and now has variants that look like windows and even have windows type software running on them?

      So YEAH, M/S should WATCH IT! MOST of the software I now run can EASILY run natively on linux. Nearly all of the rest could run under an emulator. I wonder WHEN M/S is going to make one mistake too many, but lately they keep getting closer! Heck, I run a lot of windows versions of Linux software now!

      Steve
      Laughable

      Check out this real-time chart that shows the usage of operating systems. Linux is 1.57 percent. Windows makes up all but 3.41 percent of the rest, probably mostly Apple.

      Operating system market share

      Most people who buy Pc's to run a business or use for general stuff don't give a flying fig about operating systems. They go with the herd, the herd uses Windows and are happy with it.

      It's a scant few people that want to delve into an operating system. This ain't the Home Brew computer club anymore. It's just about plenty of programs to run, minimum of fuss to do it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        I think what Steve meant to predict was that Linux will take over the desktop within the next ten years when everyone is using just tablets.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Nothing new there, l have W7, and the updates are so sneaky now, it is virtually impossible to stop them, or to know what it will do.

          So far they tried to nobble my old Word 2003, but fixed it later. And their recent mess is nobbling the sound on all of the players except for theirs, (which is terrible eventhough loud).

          VLC media player is so bad now it is virtually impossible to hear anyone speak.

          Although Realtimes and the AC3 sound filter overcomes their crap!

          I shudder to think of what the new one will nobble?

          But l will be ungrading my Laptop to one with serious speed in the near future, so l will find out soon enough.

          At least it isn't the W8 nightmare!

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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Laughable

        Check out this real-time chart that shows the usage of operating systems. Linux is 1.57 percent. Windows makes up all but 3.41 percent of the rest, probably mostly Apple.

        Operating system market share

        Most people who buy Pc's to run a business or use for general stuff don't give a flying fig about operating systems. They go with the herd, the herd uses Windows and are happy with it.

        It's a scant few people that want to delve into an operating system. This ain't the Home Brew computer club anymore. It's just about plenty of programs to run, minimum of fuss to do it.
        You DO know what web analytics are, RIGHT? FIRST, it doesn't show you the server, it doesn't talk about non human ones, is fooled by spoofing, etc... HECK, I bet you think that ALL windows versions are XP, 7, and 8.1. Where is 2012? 2008? 2003? I believe there is a 2005 also. And where did they get the sampling from? What about hidden ones? Some people DO hide that info, as sites use it to identify computers. And there are EMULATORS also! HECK, I have been at hotels and other places offering browsers that were not on windows systems. But HEY, I guess ANDROID and CHROME are dead ALSO, or are they simply going to say they excluded them because they "aren't desktop"!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You DO know what web analytics are, RIGHT? FIRST, it doesn't show you the server, it doesn't talk about non human ones, is fooled by spoofing, etc... HECK, I bet you think that ALL windows versions are XP, 7, and 8.1. Where is 2012? 2008? 2003? I believe there is a 2005 also. And where did they get the sampling from? What about hidden ones? Some people DO hide that info, as sites use it to identify computers. And there are EMULATORS also! HECK, I have been at hotels and other places offering browsers that were not on windows systems. But HEY, I guess ANDROID and CHROME are dead ALSO, or are they simply going to say they excluded them because they "aren't desktop"!

          Steve
          Yes we are taking about operating systems used for Productivity on Computers. Not Mickey Mouse twiddling about on smart phones and tablets,

          I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum (including yourself) who would be a bit more interested in computer operating systems than the average person.

          We (including myself) are really blinkered in that respect. The average person who wanted to buy a computer would just go out and buy a Windows pre installed machine, or sometimes a Mac. That's the real world, that's how it is. Linux did not take the world by storm for the mass market. Sure, it is stable and can be a basis for servers and business applications. In the college network I work at with 6000 employees our servers are Linux based and the software we use for accounting, payroll and student records etc is single entity and a Linux application. But we all have Windows 7 PC's and it's just another application that runs on it.

          It is doing well as a backbone for running all sorts of Other operating systems on servers but for a long time to come, it's still making almost zero inroads into the home Mass Market.

          PS As for you doubting that pie chart, just try popping down to Fry's or Bestbuy and asking for a ready to go machine pre-installed with Linux Mint. Nope, not happening, so I'm more inclined to think it's fairly accurate
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            Yes we are taking about operating systems used for Productivity on Computers. Not Mickey Mouse twiddling about on smart phones and tablets,

            I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum (including yourself) who would be a bit more interested in computer operating systems than the average person.

            We (including myself) are really blinkered in that respect. The average person who wanted to buy a computer would just go out and buy a Windows pre installed machine, or sometimes a Mac. That's the real world, that's how it is. Linux did not take the world by storm for the mass market. Sure, it is stable and can be a basis for servers and business applications. In the college network I work at with 6000 employees our servers are Linux based and the software we use for accounting, payroll and student records etc is single entity and a Linux application. But we all have Windows 7 PC's and it's just another application that runs on it.

            It is doing well as a backbone for running all sorts of Other operating systems on servers but for a long time to come, it's still making almost zero inroads into the home Mass Market.

            PS As for you doubting that pie chart, just try popping down to Fry's or Bestbuy and asking for a ready to go machine pre-installed with Linux Mint. Nope, not happening, so I'm more inclined to think it's fairly accurate
            Well, there HAVE been systems with Linux MINT preinstalled! As for FRY'S? THAT is the store that told me OEM memory is garbage! OK, so TOSHIBA, SONY, IBM, SUN, DELL, HP, PNY, ETC.... all must have HORRIBLE computers, since they are made with OEM parts, INCLUDING MEMORY! OH SHOOT! PNY? They sell that memory FRYS said was GOOD! SOOOOOO OEM=BAD, PNY=BAD, but they ADMIT PNY is GOOD! And I have used LOTS of OEM memory! Only memory from FRYS gave me problems! So I seriously don't think frys is a good example. STILL, I admit that microsoft has a larger private consumer base. I was simply saying that linux is nipping at their heels, and microsoft is making LOTS of mistakes! INTEL and microsoft are wiping out all the reasons why microcomputers moved out of simply the hobbyist area. If not for the price, and available people that adapt, and later the ubiquitous WWW, the industry could easily have died. And NOW M/S is changing so much in their OS.


            You know, I had a problem this morning with a customers system, and had to call their TECH SUPPORT! A thing that would normally take ME ten seconds to fix ended up taking a half hour. Even their FIRST TIER tech support couldn't help! WHY? Because the customer locks down their systems, and I was remote. But MANY today would have had the SAME problem even if they were near the computer and had admin rights. And M/S seems to keep trying to make everyone like that company I spoke of.

            Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Laughable

        Check out this real-time chart that shows the usage of operating systems. Linux is 1.57 percent. Windows makes up all but 3.41 percent of the rest, probably mostly Apple.

        Operating system market share

        Most people who buy Pc's to run a business or use for general stuff don't give a flying fig about operating systems. They go with the herd, the herd uses Windows and are happy with it.

        It's a scant few people that want to delve into an operating system. This ain't the Home Brew computer club anymore. It's just about plenty of programs to run, minimum of fuss to do it.
        yeah well according to that site the xbox doesnt exist. So I therefore discard any data from them as being garbage.

        Have a more reliable source to reference?
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          yeah well according to that site the xbox doesnt exist. So I therefore discard any data from them as being garbage.

          Have a more reliable source to reference?
          Er, we are talking about serious (and that's what the sites reflecting) operating systems here for productive usage, not just gaming/entertainment platforms.

          Xbox uses a custom system built from the ground up and does the job.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          yeah well according to that site the xbox doesnt exist. So I therefore discard any data from them as being garbage.

          Have a more reliable source to reference?
          You can't be serious.

          A) gaming systems are never counted as desktops

          B) no source has numbers higher than 6% for the share of Linux on the desktop (and that high only among geeks). Here take your pick

          http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...-of-windows-7/

          OS Statistics

          Linux desktop dreams of domination are dead. Linux couldn't even make inroads in that market when it was free as opposed to people having to pay to upgrade windows. Now that Windows upgrades are free the situations is hopeless for linux desktop.
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            You can't be serious.

            A) gaming systems are never counted as desktops

            B) no source has numbers higher than 6% for the share of Linux on the desktop (and that high only among geeks). Here take your pick
            I didn't say xbox was a desktop os.

            If (on that site) you pull down device type and choose "console"... those are the numbers that tell me that something's off, way off, with whatever methodology they're using.

            I wasn't commenting on what the numbers should be for linux.

            I was just pointing out that data from that site is highly suspect and I personally wouldn't be quoting it for any reason.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by agc View Post

              I didn't say xbox was a desktop os.

              If (on that site) you pull down device type and choose "console"... those are the numbers that tell me that something's off, way off, with whatever methodology they're using.

              I wasn't commenting on what the numbers should be for linux.

              I was just pointing out that data from that site is highly suspect and I personally wouldn't be quoting it for any reason.
              YEAH, I will go ahead and tell you what that site is about. It is about the statistics of a value in a special identifier that most browsers pass to the webserver when the "visitor" goes there, and it HINTS at the system. It does NOT analyze your system to determine its value, as if such a thing were even POSSIBLE. And WHAT is a visitor? It is a hit that has not occurred with the recognized values within a certain time frame. That timeframe is often 20 or 30 minutes. SO, if you had the SAME browser on the SAME machine hit the site every 21 minutes, you could have it register as 68 visitors! So the visitors, AND the values are NOT definite! Unless the site is a BIG general network of disparate sites, the stats would be totally meaningless even if the visitors and values WERE definite!

              Check visitors Operating System in ColdFusion - Stack Overflow

              HTTP_USER_AGENT is an OLD and common standard, though the above site shows how cold fusion can use it.

              Would you poll only visitors to mcdonalds to see what the favorite fast food place is? Would you poll visitors only at the RNC to find the US publics position on birth control? Would you use stats from only a windows site to determine how popular linux is? Well, many DO, but it is really DUMB.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by agc View Post

              I didn't say xbox was a desktop os.

              If (on that site) you pull down device type and choose "console"... those are the numbers that tell me that something's off, way off, with whatever methodology they're using......

              I was just pointing out that data from that site is highly suspect and I personally wouldn't be quoting it for any reason.
              then you can use the other two but the logic doesn't follow. Just because a system does not track consoles well does not make it automatically suspect for how they track desktops that normally connect differently to the internet.

              At any rate linux desktop use shows no vastly different numbers across any system of determining usage.
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              • Profile picture of the author agc
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                then you can use the other two but the logic doesn't follow. Just because a system does not track consoles well does not make it automatically suspect for how they track desktops that normally connect differently to the internet.

                At any rate linux desktop use shows no vastly different numbers across any system of determining usage.
                Incoorect. The logic tracks perfectly. You should never trust the integrity of anything where you can readily identify a breakdown of integrity.

                It's like saying just because he stole from Joe doesn't mean he'll steal from Larry. You may be right, he may not steal from Larry. But if I were Larry I wouldn't exactly be giving him any chances either.

                Either they care the integrity of about their data (and their methodology)... or they don't. And if they don't, wouldn't I be a fool to put any faith in it?

                Anyhow I really don't care either way about the Linux / Mac / PC argument. I just found it shocking how shaky that data is, yet it's being quoted as authoritative.
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                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                  Originally Posted by agc View Post

                  Incoorect. The logic tracks perfectly. You should never trust the integrity of anything where you can readily identify a breakdown of integrity.

                  It's like saying just because he stole from Joe doesn't mean he'll steal from Larry. You may be right, he may not steal from Larry. But if I were Larry I wouldn't exactly be giving him any chances either.

                  Either they care the integrity of about their data (and their methodology)... or they don't. And if they don't, wouldn't I be a fool to put any faith in it?

                  Anyhow I really don't care either way about the Linux / Mac / PC argument. I just found it shocking how shaky that data is, yet it's being quoted as authoritative.
                  And supported by overwhelming evidence in what is available and what just about everyone purchases in stores and online.
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                  • Profile picture of the author agc
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    And supported by overwhelming evidence in what is available and what just about everyone purchases in stores and online.
                    That Xbox 360 and Xbox One combined make up 0% of the console market? Huh?
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Originally Posted by agc View Post

                      That Xbox 360 and Xbox One combined make up 0% of the console market? Huh?
                      Here again I reiterate that we are not talking about the Console/Entertainment based custom built operating systems. Neither was the site and it's chart.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by agc View Post

                  Incoorect. The logic tracks perfectly. You should never trust the integrity of anything where you can readily identify a breakdown of integrity.
                  You are untitled to your opinion and I am entitled to think its utter nonsense (because it is). Has nothing to do with integrity.

                  Your argument is like claiming radars should not be trusted for objects flying above sea level because they miss objects flying low to the ground. some sites use technologies that are better at picking up some data and not others

                  Claiming that its a matter of integrity that they don't pick up console data well makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That logic is off the track and is a train wreck.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      SUFFICE IT TO SAY, linux is nipping at its heels.
      Since I've been using LInux - since the late 90s - Linux magazines and even lots of mainstream tech magazines have been saying things along these lines. But the average computer owner doesn't know what "a LInux" is or why it matters.

      But who knows, Windows could drop the ball a few more times like many said they did with 8 and the weird tile UI that it has, or with this subscription idea that's used with office, and maybe they'll eventually frustrate people enough to explore options away from windows. Who knows.

      Maybe in 15 to 20 more years, a world dominated by Linux will be a reality....

      I'm using Linux Mint these days, and since most everything I do is done in a text editor and a browser, I don't have requirements to run Windows software. But I wonder how MS Office subscriptions are working out for MS. It just seems like that's a bold move when there's free office suites like Libre office or WPS office that do pretty much everything most people need to do. OneNote though, there's nothing like it.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        Since I've been using LInux - since the late 90s - Linux magazines and even lots of mainstream tech magazines have been saying things along these lines. But the average computer owner doesn't know what "a LInux" is or why it matters.

        But who knows, Windows could drop the ball a few more times like many said they did with 8 and the weird tile UI that it has, or with this subscription idea that's used with office, and maybe they'll eventually frustrate people enough to explore options away from windows. Who knows.

        Maybe in 15 to 20 more years, a world dominated by Linux will be a reality....

        I'm using Linux Mint these days, and since most everything I do is done in a text editor and a browser, I don't have requirements to run Windows software. But I wonder how MS Office subscriptions are working out for MS. It just seems like that's a bold move when there's free office suites like Libre office or WPS office that do pretty much everything most people need to do. OneNote though, there's nothing like it.
        If they are anything like Openoffice, l will stay with Word 2003!

        But getting the latest version of Word is ok, just as long as you don't register. If you register, then you have to load up the entire OS again, to get rid of it, or you can never reinstall the old one again.

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    • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      SUFFICE IT TO SAY, linux is nipping at its heels. I have said this a lot, BUT..... When I started, people didn't listen to me, and it was NOWHERE to be seen! In 4 years, it DOMINATED the big to mid computer industry. HP, SUN, IBM, DEC, MIPS, APPLE, etc.... Within another 7-8 years, it took over small webservers. Within 10 years it all but took over the IoT! It now supports more CPUs than any OS in all of history. OH, and did I mention? It has done windows for over about 20 years and now has variants that look like windows and even have windows type software running on them?
      That's interesting, but not quite how I remember it during my 25 years in the industry.

      HP. Sun, IBM, DEC, MIPS, and Apple all used variants of Unix, and then began offering Linux as an option. Apple's OS is based on BSD, not Linux. HP-UX is still a robust OS used on much of HP's mid to large scale systems.

      Web servers have always been dominated by either BSD or Linux, so that was never a transition.

      Linux is an excellent OS on both the desktop and server, but it still is only a tiny blip on the radar for desktops. APPLE IS NOT LINUX...just thought that needed repeating.

      I have only ONCE in 25 years serviced a Linux desktop computer that was not mine. I have serviced thousands of Windows machines.

      I did have quite a few Linux servers in operation, but they were outnumbered by Windows Servers. (This is in small business environments.)

      Linux continues to improve, but with the fractured nature of multiple providers, it is unlikely it will ever grab the interest of major computer manufacturers and the home market.

      If there was a single robust version of Linux that eliminated the other distributions, then maybe.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Something I haven't seen anyone mention on this forum is how MS store is trying to make software easier to monetize for both developers & affiliates.

    This is a game changer because If they do this right they could basically have an army of affiliates promoting the MS store like Google did with Adsense only the potential is way bigger than Google/Adsense because the Windows user base is much bigger when you combine WinOS & Xbox.






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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Something I haven't seen anyone mention on this forum is how MS store is trying to make software easier to monetize for both developers & affiliates.

      This is a game change
      I don't think MS haters really fathom whats happening at MS especially from a development end. they are becoming incredibly open. Another game changer is that A huge chunk of .net is now open source and asp.net core will before the years is out run on almost any server linux, windows or Mac.

      This is not the old MS.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I don't think MS haters really fathom whats happening at MS especially from a development end. they are becoming incredibly open. Another game changer is that A huge chunk of .net is now open source and asp.net core will before the years is out run on almost any server linux, windows or Mac.

        This is not the old MS.
        .NET HAS run on it for quite a while. OH, it IS the same M/S! Read up on the OS lawsuit, or the Java one! HECK, even the roots of ASP. M/S has tried to get a stranglehold on open technology and tried to kill it, or make it proprietary. Java is kind of a good example of both. And you know, it IS interesting! C# was openly done to bite into java's market share. Java is based on a kind of tokenized technology called bytecode which they treat as an artificial processor called a JVM. C# is based on a kind of tokenized technology called IL which they have as part of a framework they call .net. So they are AWFULLY similar. Of course APPLE, DECADES ago used a UCSD tokenized technology called PCODE on an artificial processor called the PSYSTEM. SO same old same old! But M/S claimed that .NET was so open, etc.... Ironically, I heard about that opening up many years ago from a company that had nothing to do with M/S.

        Home | Mono

        The THIRD version was out in 2005. HERE's the company they credit with the openess:

        Press release 27 July 2005 - C# and CLI Become More Powerful

        That is one of like 3 big companies I heard of promoting it. And YEP, NON MS systems.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          .NET HAS run on it for quite a while. OH, it IS the same M/S! o-project.com/]Home | Mono[/url]
          Steve you don't know what you are talking about as usual. As a developer I have known for years about Mono. .net core is a MS initiative and mono did not make .net open source. That happened only late last year and mono has been around for years.

          .NET Core is Open Source - .NET Blog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

          I use technology I don't make any company control me. MS does something good for me I embrace it hooray. I like Macs and even linux I use it. All the fanboy and company haters are just irrational. Anyone worshipping or hating a company/corporation just tells me how juvenile they are.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Steve you don't know what you are talking about as usual. As a developer I have known for years about Mono. .net core is a MS initiative and mono did not make .net open source. That happened only late last year and mono has been around for years.

            .NET Core is Open Source - .NET Blog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

            I use technology I don't make any company control me. MS does something good for me I embrace it hooray. I like Macs and even linux I use it. All the fanboy and company haters are just irrational. Anyone worshipping or hating a company/corporation just tells me how juvenile they are.
            Did I say it was open source? And YEAH, it has been out for a LONG time, etc... All I claimed was that M/S didn't PURSUE that. WOW, so you love ALL companies?

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Did I say it was open source? And YEAH, it has been out for a LONG time, etc... All I claimed was that M/S didn't PURSUE that.
              They did. As usual you still don't know what you are talking about. .net core is an extension of the mono idea but goes much further than mono. The mono guys are over the moon about it.


              WOW, so you love ALL companies?

              Steve

              I love people I use company's products. To put it blunt I think people who love companies have mental issues.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Something I haven't seen anyone mention on this forum is how MS store is trying to make software easier to monetize for both developers & affiliates.
      SO WHAT!?!?!?!?!!? I saw a couple at a store. They were speaking with the sales person there, that was NOT very bright. It was like the blind leading the blind. The woman said that she NEVER does ANY work with computers. She buys the stuff, probably with her SONS recommendation, takes the pieces to him, and HE assembles it and she takes it home. I have heard MANY say that sort of thing, YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE! So are YOU going to do that on your site? I would LOVE to see it! And how do you explain what they want to get? I have seen people UPSET that they didn't get CDs, or the software didn't work on their system. A coworker once ordered a M/S product, and was STUNNED, and ANGRY to find he only got a LICENSE! Such are the kinds of things that can happen, and many don't want to take the chance. And M/S now has new "lower" prices that are actually very high. I wonder how many will be upset by THAT!

      [/quote]This is a game changer because If they do this right they could basically have an army of affiliates promoting the MS store like Google did with Adsense only the potential is way bigger than Google/Adsense because the Windows user base is much bigger when you combine WinOS & Xbox.[/quote]

      You REALLY think Microsoft needs that kind of help that much?


      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    What troubles me is that M$ hasn't announced any pricing scheme.

    At all.

    They throw the words "free" around regarding M$ Window$ 10...

    But if you read the fine print it's "free" for upgrades of certain operating systems, and for the "life of the machine".

    I'm quite frankly annoyed that they haven't specified ANYTHING about price.

    Don't they know their end users are frantically watching? I don't mind paying $10 per month for Office 365, but if they pull some shenanigans... It could be lights out for Windows.

    (Once their core army of IT nerds abandon them and stop recommending them, it's nighty night bunny rabbit).

    We shall see.

    Cordially

    A Micro$oft fanboy

    PS: This might seem like I'm a pessimist. I'm really not.

    I got excited when I saw GWX.exe, and await to install and test out 10 with angst.

    Everyone's chatting about whether or not .net is open source. How about some price transparency?

    Later
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      What troubles me is that M$ hasn't announced any pricing scheme.

      At all.

      They throw the words "free" around regarding M$ Window$ 10...

      But if you read the fine print it's "free" for upgrades of certain operating systems, and for the "life of the machine".

      I'm quite frankly annoyed that they haven't specified ANYTHING about price.

      Don't they know their end users are frantically watching? I don't mind paying $10 per month for Office 365, but if they pull some shenanigans... It could be lights out for Windows.

      (Once their core army of IT nerds abandon them and stop recommending them, it's nighty night bunny rabbit).

      We shall see.

      Cordially

      A Micro fanboy

      PS: This might seem like I'm a pessimist. I'm really not.

      I got excited when I saw GWX.exe, and await to install and test out 10 with angst.

      Everyone's chatting about whether or not .net is open source. How about some price transparency?

      Later
      Bill Gates said he'd rather have everyone in the world pay him a dollar on a regular basis to use his stuff than just have it out there for sale at full price (something like that) This is what they are moving towards. Subscription based. You never buy software outright anyway, only the rights to use it. Why not pay just pennies on a regular basis and get it constantly updated and improved, even replaced, rather than have something that becomes dated within a few years. Attractive to the end user and a constant stream of cash to Microsoft. Very smart.

      Also, providing the latest windows for the life of your machine and any new machine is smart. Always fresh, always new and enhanced. Give that for free and put in attractive software with it, some of which has upgrade for a fee options as well as subscription based to continue using. Open the doors to other software makers, take a cut. Simply a brilliant idea.
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Why not pay just pennies on a regular basis and get it constantly updated and improved, even replaced, rather than have something that becomes dated within a few years. Attractive to the end user and a constant stream of cash to Microsoft. Very smart
        For me its about my time and attention... when I buy a tool, learn to use it, and put it in my toolbox, I have solved that problem. Permanently (or at least for a very long time).

        Why would I instead want yet another damn thing that requires my attention and management for the rest of my life?

        I absolutely despise subscription services because they require me to continuously review and manage them around the continuously changing parameters of my life. I prefer to buy a tool and then own it forever. Cost vs benefit buy vs rent. Now I can't buy, I'm stuck perpetually renting. And renting is usually a losers strategy.

        Plus, I have tooling for lots of things that I sometimes do, used to do, and/or might eventually do.

        Last year I was racing motorcycles, now I am not. Guess I need to go turn off all the subscriptions for the tuning, ecu, data logging, gps trackign and other software goodies. Oh, and by the way, if should want to set up for a track day once this fall, now I don't have those "tools" available to me anymore. Grrr.

        Same for photography. Turned off all the tools, and now I can't edit ONE FRIKKIN picture for my G/F. Oh wait, I could turn the subscription back on for a MONTH to edit the one picture. I don't want to have to predict WHICH months I'll want to use them and which months I'll be off skiing somewhere and not thinking about photography.

        No, I will never find renting my tools preferable to owning my tools. My tools are a capital investment, paid in full with cash and either profits or savings from jobs previously done.

        And yes, software is a tool. I was doing cut vinyl signs for a while. I bought/accumulated everything I needed. And for 4 or 5 years, I never upgraded a single thing. So not only did I not have to think about subscriptions, but I also didn't have to monkey around when version 7 of the plotter software suddenly didn't like version 3 of the vector software, or maybe it was version 95 of the OS, or who knows because I never, ever, had (a single software problem once I had it set up) because once that system was stable I declared it OFF LIMITS to new crap. Everyone else I knew was always screwing around with software trying to get it to work. Me? I just printed money (cut signs).

        The last thing I need is for my hammer to kinda only half way like driving nails today, maybe veering to the left, and me have to wonder if maybe some asshat vendor silently made a tweak to the hammer software that I can't possibly know about.

        ugh.

        Here's a nice quote for you all:

        “I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid.” G. K. Chesterton
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          And yes, software is a tool.
          An ever changing tool. A hammer is a hammer is a hammer. The perfect example of comparing apples and oranges.

          You don't expect your hammer to do anything more than it could accomplish on the day you purchased it with your hard-earned cash. I don't know about you, but I expect my software tools to continually improve over time. If not, I'd still be using MacWrite and MacPaint, from 1984.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            An ever changing tool. A hammer is a hammer is a hammer. The perfect example of comparing apples and oranges.

            You don't expect your hammer to do anything more than it could accomplish on the day you purchased it with your hard-earned cash. I don't know about you, but I expect my software tools to continually improve over time. If not, I'd still be using MacWrite and MacPaint, from 1984.

            Cheers. - Frank
            I update and upgrade. I just do so when _I_ choose to do so, not when it is chosen FOR me. It's not always worth the money for the new features. And it's not always a convenient time to relearn how to do something. Sometimes I'm actually trying to get some work done on deadline and masturbating with a new toy isn't really on the agenda right at this moment.

            Ever log into your computer in hurry to get an order entered 5 minutes before an EOD shipping cutoff... and Microsoft decides now must be a good time for an update and a reboot?

            I have. The popup window hit while I was entering a PO number and while I don't know exactly what magic sequence of keys I hit I suspect it was a subtle as hitting the space bar, anyhow... WHAM there goes the reboot. Lost the web session, lost the order, missed the deadline, lost the sale, and lost the customer. THANK YOU MOTHER EFFIN MICROSOFT.

            Honestly, I've been playing around with Gimp hoping against hopes that I can learn enough that I can do enough with it so I can leave Adobe behind in the dust with my next upgrade cycle. My PC is going on 5 years old now, so its time for a new one. But so far with all this software as a service BS (first Adobe, then Office, and now Windows too????), I'm debating hanging on to my old one until I just can't stand it any more.

            Trust me, it's not the money. It's the aggravation. Last thing I need is another unreliable POS that I can't depend on and end up wasting time on over and over and over again every time someone else "makes it better for me".
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by agc View Post

              I update and upgrade. I just do so when _I_ choose to do so, not when it is chosen FOR me. It's not always worth the money for the new features. And it's not always a convenient time to relearn how to do something. Sometimes I'm actually trying to get some work done on deadline and masturbating with a new toy isn't really on the agenda right at this moment.

              Ever log into your computer in hurry to get an order entered 5 minutes before an EOD shipping cutoff... and Microsoft decides now must be a good time for an update and a reboot?

              I have. The popup window hit while I was entering a PO number and while I don't know exactly what magic sequence of keys I hit I suspect it was a subtle as hitting the space bar, anyhow... WHAM there goes the reboot. Lost the web session, lost the order, missed the deadline, lost the sale, and lost the customer. THANK YOU MOTHER EFFIN MICROSOFT.
              lol. I agree with every word you said. The only reason I have contaminated my beautiful Mac with an MS product is because I have clients that send me MS docs, the MS replacement apps never work and I'm nothing if not a risk-taker.

              Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author agc
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                lol. I agree with every word you said. The only reason I have contaminated my beautiful Mac with an MS product is because I have clients that send me MS docs, the MS replacement apps never work and I'm nothing if not a risk-taker.

                Cheers. - Frank
                The only reason I cling to my horrid PC is because, as an enterprise software developer, I've yet to use a Mac that could do anything remotely useful. And for all my artsy side pursuits... for everything the Mac is supposed to be better at (photog, music, film) equal or equivalent tools exist for the PC (adobe, pro tools, avid).

                And it's not like Apple is guilt free in the broken updates saga. Remember Apple maps fiasco? Imagine one day missing a job interview because your phone updated itself the night before.

                :-)
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by agc View Post

                  The only reason I cling to my horrid PC is because, as an enterprise software developer, I've yet to use a Mac that could do anything remotely useful.
                  A bit harsh, but as someone that is barely a prosumer, I could not argue with you from a position of strength.
                  And for all my artsy side pursuits... for everything the Mac is supposed to be better at (photog, music, film) equal or equivalent tools exist for the PC (adobe, pro tools, avid).
                  I use Adobe Creative Cloud. Most of it at 10% of its potential. I love Audition, though.
                  And it's not like Apple is guilt free in the broken updates saga. Remember Apple maps fiasco?
                  I rarely leave the house. I use a map app once a year at most, but yes - I heard about that. The earth is still rotating. Remember Y2K? lol
                  Imagine one day missing a job interview because your phone updated itself the night before.
                  Imagine the horror of having a job interview or a job.

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    The earth is still rotating. Remember Y2K? lol
                    YEAH, ****I**** remember it! I remember the period over like 5+ years were people hired a LOT of older people, even on COBOL, etc... had them working overtime, and all. I remember DEC that, SURPRISINGLY had a MAJOR Y2K failure in 1997, and had to fix that ASAP! I remember all the stories about people that turned in videos, and the like, late, and got HUGE bills. One was over $90,000 as I recall. I was at a customer site, of a MAJOR INTERNATIONAL COMPANY that EVERYONE here probably has gotten stuff from, that has been around a LONG time. Their check disbursement system CRASHED because of a minor glitch AND, once they fixed it, they had to figure out how to rewrite it because it hit various limits due to being backlogged for weeks.

                    I always said the stories about planes falling from the sky and the like were STUPID, but the other stuff was real. So few people saw it because of all the effort behind the scenes, lack of news, etc.... That company I mentioned about with the checks? I NEVER heard about it on the news, or even RUMORS! I imagine if someone breathed it, and it made it on the news, they would be fired. But yeah some people like to snicker at it like it was some scam. EXPENSIVE SCAM! Those COBOL programmers were literally laughing to the bank.

                    Now what ***I*** wonder is what about the BINARY Y2K? They STILL have 13 years for that, but I think a LOT of software STILL isn't compliant. I thought by now someone would add a bit or 32, and fix the problem. As I recall, SUN offered it as an option(code had to be recompiled and compliant to use it).

                    On the bright side, I think every somewhat major database has no problem with dates in the somewhat distant future, but you STILL have to worry about data going to, and coming from, those databases.

                    Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            An ever changing tool. A hammer is a hammer is a hammer. The perfect example of comparing apples and oranges.

            You don't expect your hammer to do anything more than it could accomplish on the day you purchased it with your hard-earned cash. I don't know about you, but I expect my software tools to continually improve over time. If not, I'd still be using MacWrite and MacPaint, from 1984.

            Cheers. - Frank
            I'm not comparing apples and oranges. I'm comparing tools and tools. Or in this case, fruits and fruits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheri...ed_programming)

            I don't expect my software to do anything more than it could accomplish on the day I purchased it with my hard-earned cash. Until the day I decide to update it. Tools are tools are tools are tools. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author ksoder
    I'm on the Windows 10 beta, and its been great so far. All my programs work, although I'm always on the latest versions, so can't speak to older versions. My guess is they probably won't work.
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