THE General Lee ALSO!?!?!?!?!?

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OK, for those too young, blind, or foreign, here is an example of what I am about to speak of:

OK, this was a series that was probably popular for a while. It even spawned a movie or two. It was a modern day robin hood type concept.

1.A family(The DUKE family) and friends that were trying to get along with their life.
2.A stupid rich politician(BOSS HOGG) that owned the biggest business in town, and wanted to harass the Dukes.
3.The sheriff and all that were in the BOSSES pocket.

Outside of being in the south, culture and all, NO references to anything like slavery, etc... HECK, the dukes helped a number of people in trouble and some were black. Generally it was trouble caused by BH!


One of the cast members has been CANNED! A company that runs old shows like this PULLED IT!
Can you guess WHY?

The cast member was called the General Lee. It is the CAR they always drive! It has the confederate flag on it! I guess we should embargo SWITERLAND! I mean it IS a "CONFEDERATion"!
And if we have any argument with FRANCE, lets shut down LOUISIANA! I mean it WAS owned by france, and has some French culture. Just look at the Mardi Gras! FRENCH for FAT TUESDAY, and is reminiscent of CARNIVAL! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival

WOW!

Steve
  • Profile picture of the author tsubibo
    Remember the movie. Who would not remember Jessica Simpson? Its going to comeback. Its just a knee-jerk reaction to the confederate flag controversy.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      It's about time they take that flag down. Good for Nikki Haley.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        It's about time they take that flag down.
        Yes, I'm running low on butt-wipe.

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

          Yes, I'm running low on butt-wipe.

          Cheers. - Frank
          Frank, if you need to borrow a couple bucks, just say so.
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          Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Frank, if you need to borrow a couple bucks, just say so.
            That would be great, Dan. I had to loan all of my money to my twin brother. Whatever you could loan me until he gets completely 'straightened-out' would be a tremendous help.

            You have heard me speak of my brother, haven't you? Hunchback Hank?

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              they passed the TPP. Good job people. Get a grip.
              It's been in the works for 8-10 years - and you think "people" could stop it?

              If it were not for wikileaks - no one would know much about it to begin with. Most who oppose it only want to add their own pet projects before passage....

              The "pass it before you read it" is the new normal, isn't it?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    And while everyone is foaming at the mouth over our history and a stinking flag. a part of history -- something we need to remember and LEARN from............they passed the TPP. Good job people. Get a grip.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      I thought that they pulled the series because the car jumping over something and hitting the ground without the undercarriage becoming spaghetti was the reason?

      But don't worry in AU, virtually anything entertaining or thought provoking is getting canned!

      Which is better....

      Lost in Space
      Time Tunnel
      Warner Bros Cartoons
      Odd couple
      Jerry Lewis movies

      The list is endless.

      Or?

      English renovation shows
      The Numbskull wants a bride, (or whatever it is called)?
      The same movies over and over, (they play Over The Hedge to death over here, good movie, but too much).

      The same murder mystery's, (never anything new).
      And to break up the tension, we have the news, full of happy, inspirational segments, (orthough one politician is always good for a laugh).

      The Apprentice, never the English or US versions here, just the same old Celebrity crap.

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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    Remember freedom fries?

    The frenzy will blow over, and silly things like DoH will be slipped back into rotation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    I get why people are so butthurt about the flag, but come on now. ;/

    Use the energy they're spending on crap like this to actually make changes in the world.

    Go build a church, or a school, or help out at the homeless shelter. Teach some kids in urban schools how to make money and defeat their defeatist attitude.

    Getting rid of a flag isn't going to change the "general" (no pun intended) opinion that people are owed something because their ancestors were slaves.

    I just saw a commercial about a woman pitching to a team of professional male baseball players. The tagline was "Where will you be when she starts pitching."

    I had to wonder, is it going to be wrong that ladies aren't allowed in the MLB or NFL now? Is that the next issue the country is going to have?

    Are we going to start hearing from women who never had any intention of playing baseball start pissing and moaning because they don't have the same rights as a man?

    I hope not, but after seeing that commercial, and listening to a news station for a while, I almost expect it.

    This country is failing, fast. I don't think anyone can stop the machine from going down, not even a Far-Right Republican, at this point.

    Time to start researching parts of the world that are friendly to ex-Americans.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the American currency is racist. Look at all the presidents who owned slaves. We need an overhaul on the dollar -- if we're already overhauling iconic American symbols (the car, not the flag)

    Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, Franklin -- all slave owners. People should be offended they're touching the money that promotes a slave owner lol -- see where that takes them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
      Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

      This country is failing, fast. I don't think anyone can stop the machine from going down, not even a Far-Right Republican, at this point.
      Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

      Warning: My advice is for entertainment purposes only.
      Yes, that one was quite entertaining. Thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

      I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the American currency is racist. Look at all the presidents who owned slaves. We need an overhaul on the dollar -- if we're already overhauling iconic American symbols (the car, not the flag)

      Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, Franklin -- all slave owners. People should be offended they're touching the money that promotes a slave owner lol -- see where that takes them.
      Those that supported gay rights so fervently also still put Saudi gas in their cars - Saudi beheads gays.
      (Not saying gays don't deserve rights - but our gov has no business taking or giving those rights. They just exist above and beyond gov).

      People now scream just to scream. They have "I don't like so you can't, either" mixed up with "rights". They have "gimme" confused with "deserve" and "earned". Freedom of speech is a right. Freedom of autonomy is a right. There is no right in existence to not be offended.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Those that supported gay rights so fervently also still put Saudi gas in their cars - Saudi beheads gays.
        Not sure what you are really getting at here... but American protesters would have little hope of positively influencing Saudi laws and customs.

        On the other hand, I would call it an American right to protest injustice... particularly in America. Gay marriage may not have been the most pressing issue for the average American, but it was a top priority for those Americans who felt disenfranchised.

        It was their right to press the issue for as long as they did, and it is to their credit that it was done primarily through nonviolent, legal means. It is also to their credit that they earned this victory at least in part by first successfully changing the social landscape.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

          Not sure what you are really getting at here... but American protesters would have little hope of positively influencing Saudi laws and customs.

          On the other hand, I would call it an American right to protest injustice... particularly in America. Gay marriage may not have been the most pressing issue for the average American, but it was a top priority for those Americans who felt disenfranchised.

          It was their right to press the issue for as long as they did, and it is to their credit that it was done primarily through nonviolent, legal means. It is also to their credit that they earned this victory at least in part by first successfully changing the social landscape.
          Exactly - it was their "right" - -but getting gov involved just made it a "privilege". What I was getting at was all the protests over institutions and businesses they felt were anti-gay, while driving around in cars powered by fuel from a country that wouldn't just tell them to go away - they would be killed. I was talking about all the hypocrisy that's going on with all these "offended" people. One hypocrisy I hate is that people are protesting a flag that does nothing but represent our early heritage (both the good and bad), yet screaming for "tolerance" for the ISIS flag.
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          Sal
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

          Not sure what you are really getting at here... but American protesters would have little hope of positively influencing Saudi laws and customs.

          On the other hand, I would call it an American right to protest injustice... particularly in America. Gay marriage may not have been the most pressing issue for the average American, but it was a top priority for those Americans who felt disenfranchised.

          It was their right to press the issue for as long as they did, and it is to their credit that it was done primarily through nonviolent, legal means. It is also to their credit that they earned this victory at least in part by first successfully changing the social landscape.
          She is saying, and CLEARLY, that they benefit from, and accept that! And you think american protesters can change the law, etc? Never mind that the Supreme court is FORBIDDEN TO, by the US constitution. Then again, most of them probably never even READ the constitution! But the US CAN, AND DOES, greatly limit US access to foreign goods. And WHO can forget the "apartheid" incidents. OH YEAH, OOOPS, I guess nearly everyone!

          As for marriage? I'm still wondering how you guys figure that that has anything to do with anything! I mean if you demand that a person that is less than an ANT as far as the belief can just rewrite things like the bible, you are saying the religion is NOTHING! And if you say it is NOTHING, why would you EVER want to be a part of it?

          AGAIN, the courts job is NOT to create law! And it is ILLEGAL to demand the church allows gay marriage! WHY? Read the FIRST amendment! CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING A RELIGION OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF! WHY does it say congress? Because ****THEY**** are the ones that are supposed to MAKE law! The supreme courts job is to LIMIT that, within the confines of the constitution, and decide if lower courts properly did the same!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    It's what I do. Now if I could only get paid for it. I'm offended now that I can't get paid for being an entertainer. ;/
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the American currency is racist. Look at all the presidents who owned slaves. We need an overhaul on the dollar -- if we're already overhauling iconic American symbols (the car, not the flag)

      Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, Franklin -- all slave owners. People should be offended they're touching the money that promotes a slave owner lol -- see where that takes them.
      They already started that idea with the 10 dollar bill.
      I think it's the new lib logic. If they remove everything that is a reminder of our past then that past won't exist and racism will end Stupid people doing stupid things expecting smart results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

    They already started that idea with the 10 dollar bill.
    I think it's the new lib logic. If they remove everything that is a reminder of our past then that past won't exist and racism will end Stupid people doing stupid things expecting smart results.
    Oh, dear. I was talking to my girlfriend about it last night, let's just wipe history and start over.

    But then people wouldn't have anything to bitch about. (Haha, yeah right! You got better land than me!)

    They'd actually have to look inward. That's not what this country is about anymore, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      "Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, Franklin -- all slave owners."

      Lincoln was not a slave owner. Good grief. Either was Hamilton.

      "They already started that idea with the 10 dollar bill."

      See above.

      By the way, I'm all in favor of taking any slave owners off our currency.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I grew up watching the Dukes of Hazard, I never once knew anyone that associated the show with any race.

    Good grief, it's the Duke boys...

    What's next, banish Smokey and the Bandit?






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  • Profile picture of the author RecessionPROOF
    How insane, they cancelled all reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard, pulled toys, what is this nonsense, all over a flag,
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by RecessionPROOF View Post

      How insane, they cancelled all reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard, pulled toys, what is this nonsense, all over a flag,
      Yea, what nonsense to remove the #1 symbol of American sedition and American terrorism as much as possible from public life.

      What are they thinking?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Yea, what nonsense to remove the #1 symbol of American sedition and American terrorism as much as possible from public life.

        What are they thinking?
        KEEP TELLING yourself that!

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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Obviously that was a mistake by Walmart and they have apologized. The ISIS flag is not widely known and the ignorant dude in the video was taking advantage of this fact.

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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Obviously that was a mistake by Walmart and they have apologized. The ISIS flag is not widely known and the ignorant dude in the video was taking advantage of this fact.
            SERIOUSLY! SUCH a flag should now be AT LEAST as well known as the confederate flag. How many times have they spoken of both in the past few years? And if there is a question, they should ask.

            And you say that WALMART "[didn't] know", and call HIM ignorant?

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    While walking on the American flag, Sal.

    The LGBT community went about it the right way. That's not what's up for debate here, though.

    Congrats on the win, now they can get married and be miserable like the rest of us.

    The racism stuff, though. Attacking the General Lee is the wrong way to get the rest of the people behind you.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

    OK, for those too young, blind, or foreign, here is an example of what I am about to speak of:

    OK, this was a series that was probably popular for a while. It even spawned a movie or two. It was a modern day robin hood type concept.

    1.A family(The DUKE family) and friends that were trying to get along with their life.
    2.A stupid rich politician(BOSS HOGG) that owned the biggest business in town, and wanted to harass the Dukes.
    3.The sheriff and all that were in the BOSSES pocket.

    Outside of being in the south, culture and all, NO references to anything like slavery, etc... HECK, the dukes helped a number of people in trouble and some were black. Generally it was trouble caused by BH!

    The Dukes Of Hazzard - S02E19 Scene 3 - YouTube

    One of the cast members has been CANNED! A company that runs old shows like this PULLED IT!
    Can you guess WHY?

    The cast member was called the General Lee. It is the CAR they always drive! It has the confederate flag on it! I guess we should embargo SWITERLAND! I mean it IS a "CONFEDERATion"!
    And if we have any argument with FRANCE, lets shut down LOUISIANA! I mean it WAS owned by france, and has some French culture. Just look at the Mardi Gras! FRENCH for FAT TUESDAY, and is reminiscent of CARNIVAL! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival

    WOW!

    Steve

    The show might be innocent fun but that flag ain't.

    It is a symbol of American sedition and American terrorism.

    I'm sure most of the folks who have a problem with the flag would have settled for the flag being digitally removed (if possible) from the car.

    After Charlston, no decent company wants to sell merchandise with that symbol on it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW disregarding that most of the US was white, and REMEMBERING that MOST were AGAINST slavery... Just look at the stars, if you don't believe that. WHAT did the CONFEDERACY, SLAVERY, KKK, JIM CROW, etc.... have in common? Just forget race for a moment, WHAT did THEY have in common that the others generally DIDN'T?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I haven't heard his argument yet, but still, a lot of what he says.....


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Still not answering the question. STILL, it turns out that the video answers them. YEAH, a flag loses meaning after a while, and has a lot of various meanings. Some grew up along that flag. They had a culture that was common and under that flag, even away from slavery. But HECK, even the Gadsden flag may be hated, etc... People hate the US flag for the same reason. Did you know that switzerland, like the US actually, has a LOT of flags?

      California flag/symbol:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_California

      Zurich flag
      Zürich canton (Switzerland)

      I wonder how they vary. Will one eventually become hated because of whatever?

      I guess THIS flag:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bavaria could be hated! The family that this represented not only ruled germany during WWI,but the people use LEATHER in clothes! SERIOUSLY, leather pants were very popular and considered a kind of state standard. Think of all those cows. A number of vegans may HATE that.

      Before it comes up, the NAZI flag was really only the flag of the socialist party, and represented a bunch of thugs that had a political Coup d'état. You know, east germany probably wasn't all that different, and people DIED trying to escape. So YEAH, GOOD RIDDANCE! It really did represent only THAT rule. The confederate flag represented the union of the states in a new country they wanted to create to secede from the US. And do you realize that Germany went back to the EXACT same flag they had during WWI. THAT is the same as one of the groups had for about 100 years before that. Wikipedia only goes back so far I guess, since berlin, for example, is apparently over 1000 years old, though wikipedia implies about 800 years.

      I guess I COULD say the exact same thing about the confederate flag, though the group was substantially larger. Still, the culture had a number of things that were nice about it. AGAIN, that is disregarding ANYTHING racial.

      HEY, IMAGINE if the OTHER parties candidate, DOUGLAS, won! If Douglas had won, he might have let the others secede, or tried to make slavery written into the legal code, like an amendment. Slavery would have taken off. You think it was bad NOW? It would have REALLY been bad THEN! Lincoln, and his nascent party, took the pendulum on the question and pulled it FAR from center. Had he lost, that pendulum would have shot FAR to the other side, and caused the other party to do more than merely support and accept slavery.

      STILL, it is interesting the sides we are on. HEY, I wouldn't fight to keep the flag up. I was never for slavery, and I wish they never had to fight the civil war. It is ironic that we now get so much more done without using any creatures. If only they could have seen such potential. I wish nobody ever went to africa, or india, or the middle east. The present day US would be very different, and probably better. There would be no racial strife, and no terrorist threats. Because of the various causes, etc... it is ALSO possible that there would have been NO WWI, NO WWII, and NO holocaust! I DO think India, Africa, and the middle east would be more stable, but it would be at a lower level than the better areas now. Of course, they then couldn't blame the US for that. ALSO, the US would be less involved with aid. But I don't see the point in banning a flag that they have grown up with for SOOOO long.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Good article.

      I've spent a few years in different parts of the south. Why doesn't someone take an anonymous poll of African Americans from all around the country and see how they feel about it?

      The south is still polluted with racists and racist monuments.

      This is the year 2015. Why is there still a monument to Confederate General Robert E. Lee in downtown New Orleans?

      Why has a statue been erected of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, also the founder of the Ku Klux Klan, in Memphis, TN? Oh, and why are he and his wife buried there?

      I've been to Fort Donelson national battlefield in Tennessee and was shocked when I discovered that Confederate soldiers are buried in unmarked graves.

      Why?

      Because those soldiers were ENEMIES of the United States of America!

      I say take down the statues, monuments and flags now!

      That goes for you, too, "Ol Miss Rebels". I can't believe the University of Mississippi is still holding onto that name either.

      Healing will never truly begin in the south until BOTH sides start putting these things to rest, out of view and into museums.

      People need to start loving their fellow man. They don't have to like them, just respect them and their rights as human beings.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

        Why doesn't someone take an anonymous poll of African Americans from all around the country and see how they feel about it?
        Joe, pew reaserch did a poll a couple years ago asking for people's response to the flag.

        Roughly one in ten Americans feels positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, according to a 2011 Pew Research Center poll. The same study showed that 30 percent of Americans reported a negative reaction to seeing the flag on display.

        But the majority, 58 percent, reported feeling neither positive nor negative. The poll also showed that African-Americans, Democrats and the highly educated were more likely to perceive the flag negatively...

        Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%).

        Fewer than one-in-ten (8%) say they display the Confederate flag in places such as their home or office, on their car or on their clothing.
        I don't think all of those 8% who display the flag or the 10% who feel positive are racist. I think many of them are just not aware of the racism behind the flag and the war. That is in my opinion because of historical revisionists who say the war was about many things such as state rights, economic oppression etc... We see some of that here in this thread. I bet if they were taught the true history that 10% would be much lower and the 30% would be much higher.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    The Confederate flag represents, to the people who display it, defiance of the federal government. That virtually all of the governmental (at the state level) adoptions of the flag represent opposition to the rights of black folks is disgusting.

    But to the average Joe that has it in their back window, or a pair of kids who paint it on the top of their car, it represents a big fat middle finger raised to the overreach of government, not anything racial. It is simply a symbol of defiance.

    And that - TL calls it 'sedition' - is the real reason people in the know want the flag-flying by state governments suppressed by whatever means necessary including disinformation and race baiting. It represents defiance of their favorite institution, the federal government.

    Personally, I go for the Gadsden flag.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      The Confederate flag represents, to the people who display it, defiance of the federal government. That virtually all of the governmental (at the state level) adoptions of the flag represent opposition to the rights of black folks is disgusting.

      But to the average Joe that has it in their back window, or a pair of kids who paint it on the top of their car, it represents a big fat middle finger raised to the overreach of government, not anything racial. It is simply a symbol of defiance.

      And that - TL calls it 'sedition' - is the real reason people in the know want the flag-flying by state governments suppressed by whatever means necessary including disinformation and race baiting. It represents defiance of their favorite institution, the federal government.

      Personally, I go for the Gadsden flag.
      Why didn't they put the KKK hoodie on the flag also?

      And you're either clueless or full of s*** with your tired, standing up to the federal gov/overreach argument. But you carry on because I know you will.

      Enjoy the 4th!

      I will, because America's slowly becoming the country it should and ought to be.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post


      Personally, I go for the Gadsden flag.
      How about trying the USA flag?
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        How about trying the USA flag?
        Coming from the person who has called the founding fathers racist, the constitution a flawed document and basically opposes everything the flag stands for.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Coming from the person who has called the founding fathers racist, the constitution a flawed document and basically opposes everything the flag stands for.
          I never said all were, but many were. That's just a fact. If they owned slaves and think people of other races are inferior, then, yep, that would make them racist. Do you disagree Thom?

          The Constitution was not perfect but the ability to amend it has enabled it to improve a great deal.

          I don't know what you are talking about in that last part of your sentence. Smh
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            I never said all were, but many were. That's just a fact. If they owned slaves and think people of other races are inferior, then, yep, that would make them racist. Do you disagree Thom?

            The Constitution was not perfect but the ability to amend it has enabled it to improve a great deal.

            I don't know what you are talking about in that last part of your sentence. Smh
            Yet they layed the foundation for freeing slaves in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and even the Declaration of Independence, yep sounds like a bunch of racists to me
            You do understand that if they tried to end slavery at that time we wouldn't have a country to begin with, don't you.
            Look what happened 87 years later when most slavery was ended.
            States seceded from the union and war broke out. Those states and likely others would not have agreed to forming this country if they tried to end slavery in 1776.
            You do understand also that slavery still exists in this country and many other countries around the world. But I guess taking down a symbol is more important that putting that effort into ending slavery. I imagine the outrage isn't there because the majority of slaves in this country today are white and their cause is being carried by Christian groups. The New White Slave Trade » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              You didn't answer the question. It's a simple question. Do you think someone who owns slaves and thinks other races are inferior are racist? I do. Apparently you don’t think so judging by your sarcastic "sounds like a bunch of racists to me. me" remark. Okie dokie.
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              Yet they layed the foundation for freeing slaves in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and even the Declaration of Independence, yep sounds like a bunch of racists to me
              You do understand that if they tried to end slavery at that time we wouldn't have a country to begin with, don't you.
              Look what happened 87 years later when most slavery was ended.
              States seceded from the union and war broke out. Those states and likely others would not have agreed to forming this country if they tried to end slavery in 1776.
              You do understand also that slavery still exists in this country and many other countries around the world. But I guess taking down a symbol is more important that putting that effort into ending slavery. I imagine the outrage isn't there because the majority of slaves in this country today are white and their cause is being carried by Christian groups. The New White Slave Trade » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                You didn't answer the question. It's a simple question. Do you think someone who owns slaves and thinks other races are inferior are racist? I do. Apparently you don't think so judging by your sarcastic "sounds like a bunch of racists to me. me" remark. Okie dokie.
                That's a two part question - no, I don't think someone who owns slaves is necessarily racist. Reprehensible and vile, most definitely, but not racist.

                Someone who thinks other races are inferior IS racist.

                But the two don't go hand in hand.

                Were black slave owners in Ethiopia in the early 1900s racist?
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  That's a two part question - no, I don't think someone who owns slaves is necessarily racist. Reprehensible and vile, most definitely, but not racist.

                  Someone who thinks other races are inferior IS racist.

                  But the two don't go hand in hand.

                  Were black slave owners in Ethiopia in the early 1900s racist?
                  That's why I put the two questions together. There's plenty of quotes from the slave owning founding fathers showing their belief that the Negro race was inferior. So, no, wasn't a two part question.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    That's why I put the two questions together. There's plenty of quotes from the slave owning founding fathers showing their belief that the Negro race was inferior. So, no, wasn't a two part question.
                    So you didn't answer Steves questions.They where simple questions.
                    where are yours (Do you even own one)?
                    Were black slave owners in Ethiopia in the early 1900s racist?
                    And of course you totally ignored this.
                    You do understand also that slavery still exists in this country and many other countries around the world. But I guess taking down a symbol is more important that putting that effort into ending slavery. I imagine the outrage isn't there because the majority of slaves in this country today are white and their cause is being carried by Christian groups. The New White Slave Trade » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                You didn't answer the question. It's a simple question. Do you think someone who owns slaves and thinks other races are inferior are racist? I do. Apparently you don't think so judging by your sarcastic "sounds like a bunch of racists to me. me" remark. Okie dokie.
                Typical Tim. Of course some of them where racist. But not all by a long shot. You see I have the intelligence to not make a blanket statement like you like to do.
                Washington owned slaves, was he a racist?Ten Facts About Washington & Slavery*·*George Washington's Mount Vernon Many of the slave owning founding fathers struggled with the idea of owning slaves. (bold is mine)
                Most of the Founding Fathers were for the abolition of slavery. John Adams was an outspoken foe of the institution. Alexander Hamilton founded the New York Manumission Society. Just before he died, Benjamin Franklin forwarded a petition from the Pennsylvania Abolition Society to Congress in 1790 to force the legislative body to stop the slave trade and work on a plan to abolish slavery. Thomas Paine wrote an influential essay in 1775 in the Pennsylvania Journal advocating abolition. George Washington grew to hate slavery and wrote that it was his fondest wish "to see some plan adopted, by which slavery in this country may be abolished by slow, sure, and imperceptible degrees." As a young man, Thomas Jefferson was one of the strongest leaders in pushing for the abolition of slavery: he denounced the institution in his book Notes On The State of Virginia and formulated a plan of gradual abolition that featured an end to the slave trade, the prohibition of slavery, and the establishment of a date in which newly born children of slaves would be free. In the 1770s and 1780s, Jefferson pushed in the Virginia legislature and the federal government to face up to the issue of slavery; in 1784, Jefferson pushed for a bill to prohibit slavery in the western territories that failed to pass by a single vote.The Founding Fathers Grapple With Slavery | Everyday Citizen
                Do those slave owners sound like racist to you? You see Tim you can't use a blanket statement like that where you call all slave owners racist when in was a different time with different world and cultural views prevailing. By today's standards they would be considered racist. By the standards of the 1700's they would be considered opponents to racism.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  You see I have the intelligence to not make a blanket statement like you like to do.
                  Typical Thom, having problems with reading comprehension. Show me where I said all the founding fathers are racist. Oh, that's right. I never said it. That's just you making shit up in your mind. Kind of like thinking you are intelligent. Lol ( joke )
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Typical Thom, having problems with reading comprehension. Show me where I said all the founding fathers are racist. Oh, that's right. I never said it. That's just you making shit up in your mind. Kind of like thinking you are intelligent. Lol ( joke )
                    Typical Tim, still avoiding Steve's questions and my statement on current day slavery in America.
                    Let's see how you rap your intelligence around this.
                    Black Woman Schools Liberals On Why Confederate Flag Not Racist
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      I don't know what you are talking about in that last part of your sentence. Smh
                      Of course you don't, I didn't expect you to.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    By the way, anyone who wants to believe that American slavery wasn't a racist institution is ignorant and/or blind to the facts. Look what happened after it was abolished. There was racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, KKK, etc... Hell, the Confederate states spelled it out clearly in their reasons for seceding. They mentioned African slavery specifically and their belief that the Negro race was inferior. Of course it was racial. Good grief. Unbelievable.
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                    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      By the way, anyone who wants to believe that American slavery wasn't a racist institution is ignorant and/or blind to the facts. Look what happened after it was abolished. There was racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, KKK, etc... Hell, the Confederate states spelled it out clearly in their reasons for seceding. They mentioned African slavery specifically and their belief that the Negro race was inferior. Of course it was racial. Good grief. Unbelievable.
                      People who want to believe that slavery in and of itself is racially motivated are ignorant and/or blind to the facts. Slavery is primarily an economical institution; there are numerous examples to illustrate same-race slavery, as between members of differing social castes.

                      That many if not most slave owners harbored beliefs that African people were inferior or unequal has nothing to do with slavery. My guess is that people like this feel that way toward all others of a different race.

                      I further speculate that many if not most of the slave holders in the south and north would have happily owned white slaves if it had been permitted.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      By the way, anyone who wants to believe that American slavery wasn't a racist institution is ignorant and/or blind to the facts. Look what happened after it was abolished. There was racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, KKK, etc... Hell, the Confederate states spelled it out clearly in their reasons for seceding. They mentioned African slavery specifically and their belief that the Negro race was inferior. Of course it was racial. Good grief. Unbelievable.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison
                      Undergraduate Research Journal for the Human Sciences
                      Did Black People Own Slaves? | American Renaissance
                      Those damn racist.
                      Slavery existed for economic purposes much more so then because the slave owners (white and black) were racists.
                      The South fought for slavery to protect their economy.
                      Not saying they were right. but racism wasn't one of the reasons for slavery in America.
                      Defenders of slavery argued that the sudden end to the slave economy would have had a profound and killing economic impact in the South where reliance on slave labor was the foundation of their economy. The cotton economy would collapse. The tobacco crop would dry in the fields. Rice would cease being profitable.
                      Defenders of slavery argued that if all the slaves were freed, there would be widespread unemployment and chaos. The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        The second flag adopted by the Confederacy is where the "rebel flag" we see today comes into play.
                        Its creator called it the "White Man's Flag" and when he created it he was quoted as saying:

                        "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." --William T. Thompson (April 23, 1863), Daily Morning News
                        Nope. Nothing racist there from the creator of the second Confederate flag. It's all about economics. Lol

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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                          It's all about economics. Lol
                          Of course it is. The economics of high-profit potential from selling racist flags to a populace that could never own one too many.

                          Do the math. :-)

                          Cheers. - Frank
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                        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                          Nope. Nothing racist there from the creator of the second Confederate flag. It's all about economics. Lol

                          I've never, ever seen a confederate flag like that. How about putting a link to your source in.
                          Like I've said. Some were racists. But history shows that slavery no matter where it takes place is primarily about economics.
                          Look at the current slave trade in America. Young teen girls being kidnapped and used as sex slave prostitutes. Is that based on racism or economics? Maybe you don't think they are slaves?
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                            I've never, ever seen a confederate flag like that. How about putting a link to your source in.
                            Try googling 2nd Confederate flag.

                            I know you think you are making some important relevant point by comparing illegal sex slavery to state sanctioned slavery of black people in the US, but in reality, it's not relevant at all. Sorry.
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                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                              Try googling 2nd Confederate flag.

                              I know you think you are making some important relevant point by comparing illegal sex slavery to state sanctioned slavery of black people in the US, but in reality, it's not relevant at all. Sorry.
                              I just did. That flag was used for less then two years.
                              The second Official Flag of the Confederacy. On May 1st,1863, a second design was adopted, placing the Battle Flag (also known as the "Southern Cross") as the canton on a white field. This flag was easily mistaken for a white flag of surrender especially when the air was calm and the flag hung limply.
                              The flag now had 13 stars having been joined officially by four more states, Virginia (April 17, 1861), Arkansas (May 6, 1861), Tennessee (May 7, 1861), North Carolina (May 21, 1861). Efforts to secede failed in Kentucky and Missouri though those states were represented by two of the stars. Flags of the Confederacy
                              I also found this about that flag when researching the Journalist you mentioned, William Tappan Thompson.
                              However, the official Confederate flag act of 1864 did not formally state what the white-colored field officially symbolized and thus, many Confederates at the time offered various interpretations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_...tes_of_America
                              Here's the article on Thompson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson
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                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                              Try googling 2nd Confederate flag.

                              I know you think you are making some important relevant point by comparing illegal sex slavery to state sanctioned slavery of black people in the US, but in reality, it's not relevant at all. Sorry.
                              Tell that to the people that are currently slaves.
                              My point though that you think is irrelevant is that slavery was and still is more about economics then racism.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                My point though that you think is irrelevant is that slavery was and still is more about economics then racism.
                                And my point is that American slavery, the legal state sponsored slavery, was overwhelminglying a racist institution. Sure, there were white slaves and there were blacks who owned slaves, but the reality is these were a small fraction of American slavery which was based on the thought that the white race was supreme. Sure, all forms of slavery are financially driven also. It's free labor.

                                I already quoted how the huy who designed the second Confederate flag felt about the inferior black race. Here's a few more examples that show what sla6very and the civil war were really about.

                                In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable...

                                .in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations;
                                Mississippi in justifying secession:

                                These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.
                                As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of an*nexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.
                                Alabama

                                Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.
                                James Henry Hammond
                                We do not think that whites should be slaves either by law or necessity. Our slaves are black, of another and inferior race. The status in which we have placed them is an elevation. They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves. None of that race on the whole face of the globe can be compared with the slaves of the South. They are happy, content, unaspiring, and utterly incapable, from intellectual weakness, ever to give us any trouble by their aspirations.
                                Georgia Gov Joseph E Brown before secession:

                                Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. His family is treated with kindness, consideration and respect. He does not belong to the menial class. The negro is in no sense of the term his equal. He feels and knows this. He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of white men. He black no masters boots, and bows the knee to no one save God alone. He receives higher wages for his labor than does the laborer of any other portion of the world, and he raises up his children with the knowledge, that they belong to no inferior cast, but that the highest members of the society in which he lives, will, if their conduct is good, respect and treat them as equals.
                                And of course, there's the cornerstone speech by Confederate Vice President Andrew Stevens

                                The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization...

                                Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
                                Yet Thom says "racism wasn't one of the reasons for slavery in America." :/
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                                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                  And my point is that American slavery, the legal state sponsored slavery, was overwhelminglying a racist institution. Sure, there were white slaves and there were blacks who owned slaves, but the reality is these were a small fraction of American slavery which was based on the thought that the white race was supreme. Sure, all forms of slavery are financially driven also. It's free labor.

                                  I already quoted how the huy who designed the second Confederate flag felt about the inferior black race. Here's a few more examples that show what sla6very and the civil war were really about.



                                  Mississippi in justifying secession:





                                  Alabama



                                  James Henry Hammond


                                  Georgia Gov Joseph E Brown before secession:



                                  And of course, there's the cornerstone speech by Confederate Vice President Andrew Stevens



                                  Yet Thom says "racism wasn't one of the reasons for slavery in America." :/
                                  Sure, all forms of slavery are financially driven also. It's free labor.
                                  Actually it's not free labor, but then you're just showing how much you don't know about slavery. But at least you're finally admitting that it's financially driven.
                                  While Americans typically use the term "slavery" specifically in reference to pre-Civil War slaves in the Southern United States, here's a sad but true statement: Humankind has been enslaving each other for as long as history has been recorded. The early-English enslaved Irish Catholics; the Moors enslaved the Spanish before the Spanish enslaved the Moors and Cubans; the Ottomans enslaved the Balkans and Turks; the Egyptians enslaved the Jews; the Greeks and Romans enslaved seemingly everyone. While people think of slavery as a thing of the past, it's happened in recent history (Stalin enslaved those he exiled to Siberia to work in his factories, and the Nazi labor camps are nothing but slave camps) and still happens today. In modern Africa, Nigerians still trade children and in Ghana, a man can be punished for a crime by being forced to turn over a daughter to his victim.

                                  Historically, slaves are usually people of a different (considered inferior) ethnic, national, religious, or tribal orientation. Sometimes slaves are prisoners of war; while in other cultures, people convicted of crimes are sold into slavery. Still other times (as in the case of early-American slaves from Africa), societies plagued with poverty, overpopulation, or technological inferiority are either forcibly taken as slaves or willingly traded to more developed nations.
                                  Of course you won't understand that the reason the Africans were concedered inferior was because of where they came from and how they looked and dressed. Also not being Christian played a role in why Africans were used as slaves. But the main reason is because Africa is the Continent That the Dutch, Spanish, England, etc. were in the process of claiming as theirs. We weren't going over there and picking the slaves, up until we stopped the importation of slaves, they were being provided to us in trade by those other countries.
                                  Like I've said before yes some slave owners where racist, but slavery existed almost entirely for economic reasons not because of racism.
                                  Speaking of Jefferson, yes he owned slaves, yes he thought they where inferior and yes he ended international slave trade in the US. Then there's this
                                  In Notes Jefferson criticized the effects slavery had on both white and African-American slave society.[129] He believed slavery destroyed the industriousness of whites stating "no man can labour for himself who can make another labour for him..."[129] believing slavery was "the most unremitting despotism" by whites and "degrading submissions" for blacks. Jefferson defended blacks, who were stereotyped as thieves, stating that this was due to their condition of slavery rather than any moral depravity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...on_and_slavery
                                  By the way regardless of race, religion or anything else the mind set of a person who owns slaves is to think they (the slaves) are inferior.
                                  But trying to distort history and claiming that owning a slave is because of racism is not the way to heal old wounds and unite a nation. Your constant screams of racism does nothing but put a wedge deeper into the divide of this country. I often wonder what you and people like you are trying to accomplish. It certainly isn't to bring people together as equals.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                    Actually it's not free labor, but then you're just showing how much you don't know about slavery. But at least you're finally admitting that it's financially driven.
                                    Yes, Thom, they had to feed them, house them and buy them in the first place. What I meant was they didn't have to pay wages. I think that was clear to most.

                                    By the way, I never said slavery wasn't financially driven. That's obvious and really doesn't need to be said, especially over and over as if it's some sort of revelation. Lol Again, you are making stuff up and reading something that isn't there.

                                    Speaking of Jefferson, yes he owned slaves, yes he thought they where inferior...
                                    He didn't just think the slaves were inferior. He thought their whole race was inferior. That made him a racist. Get it yet?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                      Yes, Thom, they had to feed them, house them and buy them in the first place. What I meant was they didn't have t pay wages. I think that was clear to most.

                                      By the way, I never said slavery wasn't financially driven. That's obvious and really doesn't need to said, especially over and over as if it's some sort of revelation. Lol Again, you are making stuff up and reading something that isn't there.



                                      He didn't just think the slaves were inferior. He thought their whole race was inferior. That made him a racist. Get it yet?
                                      Yeah I get it. Do you get that this was a couple hundred years ago and people didn't have the knowledge and understanding that we supposedly have today. The reason I keep repeating the economics part is because of your continued comments about it being racist.
                                      In todays world people understand what racism is, do you think they understood that back then? Of course with the continued attack on things like the confederate flag, I'm starting to wonder.
                                      But then you seem to be more interested in creating a deeper divide in this country instead of any type of coming together and healing.
                                      Getting back the The Dukes here's how that bit of stupidity is working out for TVLand.
                                      What gets me most about the decision to take the show off the air is that there is absolutely nothing at all that could even be remotely perceived as racist on it. It's sad that the politically correct crowd, who is obviously in the minority on this one, has been able to affect so much when it comes to the Confederate flag. Although, to see Americans rising up against it is awesome, and hopefully the silent majority becomes increasingly vocal as the left relentlessly attempts to bully us into silence. After TV Land Caves & Boots ?Dukes of Hazzard,? They Learn What REAL Pressure Is
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                                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                        In todays world people understand what racism is, do you think they understood that back then?
                                        Good grief. Of course they did. There were those who not only spoke out against slavery and we're actively working to end it but who didn't own slaves themselves. They weren't hypocrites. People like the Adams, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton... These were honorable men.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                        By the way Tim, here's my view on slavery. It's wrong period regardless of whatever the reasons people use to justify it. I'm a firm believer in equality FOR ALL HUMANS. We've ended slavery as a state institution in this country. It's time to forgive, but not forget.
                                        Your approach does nothing but insinuate that you are superior to those who disagree with you. If a person doesn't believe what you do about a piece of cloth then they must be racist, which is the same as saying they are inferior. Not much different from the slave owners of the past thinking blacks where inferior because of the color of their skin.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                          By the way Tim, here's my view on slavery. It's wrong period regardless of whatever the reasons people use to justify it. I'm a firm believer in equality FOR ALL HUMANS. We've ended slavery as a state institution in this country. It's time to forgive, but not forget.
                                          Your approach does nothing but insinuate that you are superior to those who disagree with you. If a person doesn't believe what you do about a piece of cloth then they must be racist, which is the same as saying they are inferior. Not much different from the slave owners of the past thinking blacks where inferior because of the color of their skin.
                                          Yes, I'm now the same as slave owners along with being against everything the flag stands for. Lol Brilliant Thom.

                                          By the way, I also never said everyone who uses that flag is racist but that it was a racist flag to start with and was brought back as a racist symbol decades later. People should know their history before talking about their heritage.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Yes, I'm now the same as slave owners along with being against everything the flag stands for. Lol Brilliant Thom.

                                            By the way, I also never said everyone who uses that flag is racist but that it was a racist flag to start with and was brought back as a racist symbol decades later. People should know their history before talking about their heritage.
                                            It was a battle flag to start with.

                                            BTW Tim (TL too), you never did answer my question: do you even own an American flag?

                                            This is where I was this morning, small town America, in an Independence Day parade.



                                            THESE people are patriots. Most of them served in the military, a couple were POWs. It was an honor to be around them today.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post


                                              THESE people are patriots. Most of them served in the military, a couple were POWs. It was an honor to be around them today.
                                              I'm glad THOSE people are patriotic!

                                              Yes, I own several flags. One from my father who died two years ago who served in the Navy for two years during world War 2.

                                              By the way, what does it matter that the flag started out as a battle flag? It ended up on the last two Confederate flags.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                I'm glad THOSE people are patriotic!

                                                Yes, I own several flags. One from my father who died two years ago who served in the Navy for two years during world War 2.

                                                By the way, what does it matter that the flag started out as a battle flag? It ended up on the last two Confederate flags.
                                                I am glad they are, too.

                                                I'm glad you own flags. Do you ever fly them? Somehow I doubt that you do. Like the rest of the tribe of 'progressives', you're probably embarrassed by even the thought of it.

                                                It matters because you chastised someone for not knowing history. Or is it just your version of history they don't know?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Yes, I'm now the same as slave owners along with being against everything the flag stands for. Lol Brilliant Thom.

                                            By the way, I also never said everyone who uses that flag is racist but that it was a racist flag to start with and was brought back as a racist symbol decades later. People should know their history before talking about their heritage.
                                            You're right people should know their history.
                                            As it has been repeatedly pointed out to you that flag started out as a battle flag not a racist flag. It was and has been used as a symbol since then BY SOME.
                                            Now do you think racist humans are your equals?
                                            Do you think you are superior to any other humans?
                                            Answering yes to either of those puts you on the same level.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                              I'm sorry you seem to feel inferior for some reason Thom. I'm just stating my opinions. You were the one who made a personal attack first by saying I was against everything the flag stood for. How dare you. I don’t feel superior to anyone. I do think your arguments many times are weak, not well thought out and just wronng. Racism didn't have anything to do with slavery? Wow. I disagree but that shouldn't make you feel inferior. :/
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                                              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                I'm sorry you seem to feel inferior for some reason Thom. I'm just stating my opinions. You were the one who made a personal attack first by saying I was against everything the flag stood for. How dare you. I don't feel superior to anyone. I do think your arguments many times are weak, not well thought out and just wronng. Racism didn't have anything to do with slavery? Wow. I disagree but that shouldn't make you feel inferior. :/
                                                Well Tim as with everything else, if you think I feel inferior to anyone you're wrong. Show me where I said racism didn't have anything to do with slavery? I said the MAIN Reason, not the only reason, but the MAIN REASON. I've said through out that yes some of the slave owners where racist. I've not denied that racism wasn't a reason, just not the main reason.
                                                The fact that you think my comment was a personal attack and not just observation based on how I've interpreted your comments is interesting.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                                  Show me where I said racism didn't have anything to do with slavery? I said the MAIN Reason, not the only reason, but the MAIN REASON. I've said through out that yes some of the slave owners where racist. I've not denied that racism wasn't a reason, just not the main reason.
                                                  Post #61

                                                  Thom: " racism wasn't one of the reasons for slavery in America."

                                                  So, not only do you think you see things I wrote when I didn’t, but you forget what you wrote. Lol

                                                  Regarding the flag being a battle flag first: I don’t see why that matters since as I said it ended up on the last two Confederate flags. Secondly, it was a battle flag for the confederacy and I pointed out earlier their cause was racist in nature. Go read what the Confederate VP said was the cornerstone of their cause. It's all as clear as day for those who want to see.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Yes, I'm now the same as slave owners along with being against everything the flag stands for. Lol Brilliant Thom.

                                            By the way, I also never said everyone who uses that flag is racist but that it was a racist flag to start with and was brought back as a racist symbol decades later. People should know their history before talking about their heritage.
                                            Just where the hell did the idea that the "flag" is racist come from? Yes there was slavery in the south. Do you think that's all the south was about? Really? The whole south of our US was nothing but all about slavery? Do you know ANY history of the US South?

                                            Also -- I'm completely appalled that you would argue that the slavery of whites or black slave holders didn't matter because there weren't enough of them. Did you even think before you said that?

                                            30,000 Irish lives should matter. King James sold hundreds of thousands of Irish slaves to America, Australia, Africa, etc. These slave's were sometimes dumped by the hundreds and thousands into the ocean to drown if the crew started to run short on food during their voyages - but, hey, they weren't black so it doesn't matter, right? Because there weren't as many as there were blacks. Right. And because some people claim that they had it "easier" than blacks even though the same rules applied? And there weren't as many black slave owners so if they owned white slaves, we don't have to consider that because of numbers instead of moral values.

                                            Then we can get down to where the black slaves CAME from -- from Africa where they were captured and sold by OTHER black people -- mostly to Muslims who sold them globally. But they're okay because they were black so completely innocent. Right.

                                            Let's get down to brass tacks - anyone who, captured, sold, or owned other humans was pond scum. We stopped it here - there were a lot of whites who died to help stop it. There were whites that aided in forming an underground railroad and risked their own lives to free slaves.

                                            So tell me - when you flog yourself publicly for being white - do you prefer leather or chain?

                                            Slavery is wrong no matter what color or nationality the people capturing, selling, or owning slaves happen to be -- and there isn't one color or nationality that's historically free from guilt.

                                            The world has not moved on. Many countries hold their women as slaves. In Africa there are still both black and white slaves.

                                            But by all means, lets all concentrate on, and blame ourselves for the fact that people before we were even born did some nasty crap to other people over here instead of celebrating that we got beyond it and concentrating our efforts on seeing slavery ended worldwide in the present.

                                            Good grief. This whole shyte and caboodle about history as if it applies to all of us in the present in the US just makes me want to hurl.

                                            Nobody of any color or nationality has a right to own another human.
                                            Nobody of any color or nationality should feel they need to apologize for anything they have not done or agreed to see done to others. ESPECIALLY when it was done before they were even born.
                                            If you feel bad about yourself because of your color or nationality because of what others of your nationality or color did that you had no control over - well, you should see a shrink because that is a problem.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                              If you feel bad about yourself because of your color or nationality because of what others of your nationality or color did that you had no control over - well, you should see a shrink because that is a problem.

                                              Tim doesn't have a thing to apologize to you or any problem needing a shrink. As one of the few people on this forum who actually has been called the N word he is one of just a handful I am quite certain is not a racist. He who has actually experienced knows it when he sees it

                                              but I mean where would the basement be without the occasional thread to bring out the racists and sympathizers???

                                              Whats new? Is there ever a thread like this where the same people are not trying to minimize the history of racism in this country?

                                              Confederate flag not racist? excuse me a minute

                                              ROFL.....

                                              IN all my years I have never seen an African American whose family lived in the south their entire life flying it. I wonder why that is weezie? Lets call a spade a spade and get real. We use to be British too but guess what - I don't see anyone here wanting to fly the British flag (besides brits who come over). So why the confederate flag?

                                              SImple and obvious. Its a longing and celebration of the good ole days. The south continued to be the south under the good ole US flag just fine. Food, drink , dance life the same except for one thing.

                                              Dem cotton pickin slaves
                                              the idea that whites were superior
                                              when a servant knew his place
                                              and boy was name you could call a man

                                              thats the only reason anyone needs to go back to the memories of the confederate flag. Everything else remained unchanged for decades after so theres nor reason to not celebrate the south under ole glory.


                                              Now all that said

                                              Leave the duke boys alone and leave general lee alone. IF anyone ever took that show seriously in any shape or form they were already brain dead anyway - well.......unless they were watching it for the same reason people sometimes watch Hee Haw - everyone of them male.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                                                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                                Tim doesn't have a thing to apologize to you or any problem needing a shrink. As one of the few people on this forum who actually has been called the N word he is one of just a handful I am quite certain is not a racist. He who has actually experienced knows it when he sees it

                                                but I mean where would the basement be without the occasional thread to bring out the racists and sympathizers???

                                                Whats new? Is there ever a thread like this where the same people are not trying to minimize the history of racism in this country?

                                                Confederate flag not racist? excuse me a minute

                                                ROFL.....

                                                IN all my years I have never seen an African American whose family lived in the south their entire life flying it. I wonder why that is weezie? Lets call a spade a spade and get real. We use to be British too but guess what - I don't see anyone here wanting to fly the British flag (besides brits who come over). So why the confederate flag?

                                                SImple and obvious. Its a longing and celebration of the good ole days. The south continued to be the south under the good ole US flag just fine. Food, drink , dance life the same except for one thing.

                                                Dem cotton pickin slaves
                                                the idea that whites were superior
                                                when a servant knew his place
                                                and boy was name you could call a man

                                                thats the only reason anyone needs to go back to the memories of the confederate flag. Everything else remained unchanged for decades after so theres nor reason to not celebrate the south under ole glory.


                                                Now all that said

                                                Leave the duke boys alone and leave general lee alone. IF anyone ever took that show seriously in any shape or form they were already brain dead anyway - well.......unless they were watching it for the same reason people sometimes watch Hee Haw - everyone of them male.
                                                So anyone who isn't apparently ashamed of their color if they are white is a racist? I'm sorry, but I've heard Tim one too many times sound as if he's ashamed of his own skin. Feeling bad about something that happened, and feeling bad about your own color because of things that happened is not a healthy attitude, and I feel he carries some shame in his own skin that he should not be carrying. I also understand a few things about his past that might have helped ingrain such an attitude. My sister went through the same thing. She got over it without becoming a racist and now feels just fine again about her own self and heritage.

                                                Slavery still exists in some places and I think it's time for all of us to stop apologizing or feeling sorry for ourselves and see what we can do about stopping the same institution that exists today. It would be a much more productive use of our time and talents, ya think?
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                                  So anyone who isn't apparently ashamed of their color if they are white is a racist? I'm sorry, but I've heard Tim one too many times sound as if he's ashamed of his own skin.
                                                  Try that nonsense argument on someone else who hasn't read both him and you over the years. Tim is not the least bit ashamed of his skin color. He just has empathy for a skin color that isn't his own. there no way I would sit back and make you paint that as something ugly or mentally deficient.

                                                  Feeling bad about something that happened, and feeling bad about your own color because of things that happened is not a healthy attitude,
                                                  411 - Thinking you can put your words and thought into someone's head isn't the picture of mental health. I don't think there has ever been a discussion on race in this forum where you haven't tried to minimize or equalize what African Americans have gone through. If you can speak and summarize whats in Tim's head then i guess I could do the same for you - right?

                                                  Slavery still exists in some places and I think it's time for all of us to stop apologizing or feeling sorry for ourselves and see what we can do about stopping the same institution that exists today. It would be a much more productive use of our time and talents, ya think?
                                                  I guess thats why you are on this forum now and in every thread on the subject doing nothing to stop anything but claiming that something you never experienced other people should just get over. Mighty something of you but unfortunately I can't say what

                                                  Me? feeling sorry for myself? LOL You pretty much think I am the most arrogant prick to type on these forums and I am an African American. SO obviously I don't even on a bad day feel sorry for myself so you can take that premise that anyone that says hey it takes some time for an ethnicity to recover generations of slavery and then discrimination and umm file it somewhere but not in the truth box. Its a simple logical realization that I think any one who thinks intelligently about recognizes with not an ounce of feeling sorry for oneself involved.

                                                  I'm in SC on business.Maybe I'll go visit nine families and tell them they should stop feeling sorry for themselves because the days of being killed for your skin color are all over.

                                                  Sal said it so it must be true. those days are long gone and the institutionalization of it doesn't exist anywhere in the good old confederate flying US of A
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                                                • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
                                                  Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                                  Slavery still exists in some places and I think it's time for all of us to stop apologizing or feeling sorry for ourselves and see what we can do about stopping the same institution that exists today. It would be a much more productive use of our time and talents, ya think?
                                                  The same institution does not exist today.
                                                  Chattel slavery is the type of slavery that black Americans were forced to suffer. It is no were near the same as modern day slavery(Bondage labor, forced labor, and forced marriage). Remember chattel slavery was legal. So was killing a slave(man,women, or child) Today this type of slavery(chattel) is outlawed.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                        Yeah I get it. Do you get that this was a couple hundred years ago and people didn't have the knowledge and understanding that we supposedly have today. The reason I keep repeating the economics part is because of your continued comments about it being racist.
                                        In todays world people understand what racism is, do you think they understood that back then?
                                        A word means NOTHING! It is used ONLY to EXPRESS an idea! The idea may have existed LOOOONG before. As for knowing what the word means? I DOUBT many do TODAY! Googles first definition says:

                                        the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
                                        prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
                                        FIRST, that is BULL! It is acting on, or spreading, the false belief in a general negative, or positive, characteristic about a race. It is NOT using a specific word, etc...

                                        At least they didn't use terms like majority, white, in power, culture, etc.... MANY DO!!!!!!! And at least they didn't mention nationality, or merely different. MANY DO!!!!!

                                        I said it before, and I will say it again. MLK called ******FOR****** discrimination! So many claim he was against it, but he was FOR it! He said that you ******SHOULD JUDGE PEOPLE******* by the content of their character! So YEAH, it was against prejudice of blacks, asians, whites, etc.... But it was FOR it against people with bad character.

                                        Still, something just doesn't make sense about some of the comments that supposedly came from the south. They OBVIOUSLY believed blacks had more potential. They FORBADE teaching them things like how to read. They limited some access. They had to convey ideas to the blacks. That seems second nature to many, but that is because you are generally ISOLATED! Try going to russia, for example, and you may not understand the simplest of commands. And be careful with hand signals in Italy or resting in an arab country. So the blacks had to learn a bit even to be slaves. And don't forget about the FREE blacks! Some of them WERE pretty successful.

                                        Of course with the continued attack on things like the confederate flag, I'm starting to wonder.
                                        But then you seem to be more interested in creating a deeper divide in this country instead of any type of coming together and healing.
                                        Getting back the The Dukes here's how that bit of stupidity is working out for TVLand.
                                        Now on THAT, we agree!

                                        Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison
                        Undergraduate Research Journal for the Human Sciences
                        Did Black People Own Slaves? | American Renaissance
                        Those damn racist.
                        Slavery existed for economic purposes much more so then because the slave owners (white and black) were racists.
                        The South fought for slavery to protect their economy.
                        Not saying they were right. but racism wasn't one of the reasons for slavery in America.
                        Here's all of what I said Tim.
                        The links above support what I was saying. An excerpt from the second link.
                        The popular opinion regarding slavery in the United States is that it was a simple matter of racial oppression of blacks by whites. However, the presence of black slaveholders in North America prior to the Civil War shows that slavery was not based solely on color but on economics. Black slave owners, for the most part, were complicities in support of the institution deriving from it wealth and privileges denied to other groups.
                        That's the facts.
                        Now I fully understand how slavery can create racism.
                        But history shows that slavery in this country wasn't started by racism. It was later used as a reason for slavery, but it was still about protecting their economy. If at any point during that time a less labor intensive way of farming was introduced, you wouldn't see landowners holding on to their slaves for long. Just like it did in the North when they started using more automated equipment to replace their slave labor force.
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                        • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
                          If it wasn't started by racism then why didn't they just grab the average white guy off the street and make him a slave. I'm sure there were plenty of white people they could have recruited.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

                            If it wasn't started by racism then why didn't they just grab the average white guy off the street and make him a slave. I'm sure there were plenty of white people they could have recruited.
                            During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.
                            The Irish Slave Trade
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                            • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
                              The Iris were sold as endentured stupiservants or forced laborers. They lived a hard life but you can't compare them to the slavery of black Americans.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                The idea of the Irish slave trade has some very dubious origins and is very likely a myth:

                                The conflation of indentured servitude with chattel slavery in the ‘Irish slaves’ narrative whitewashes history in the service of Irish nationalist and white supremacist causes. Its resurgence in the wake of Ferguson reflects many Americans’ denial of the entrenched racism still prevalent in their society...

                                It was with a heavy heart and no small amount of anger that I decided it was necessary to write a public refutation of the insidious myth that the Irish were once chattel slaves in the British colonies. The subject of this myth is not an issue in academic circles, for there is unanimous agreement, based on overwhelming evidence, that the Irish were never subjected to perpetual, hereditary slavery in the colonies, based on notions of ‘race’. Unfortunately this is not the case in the public domain and the ‘Irish slaves’ myth has been shared so frequently online that it has gone viral.

                                The vast majority of labourers who agreed to this system did so voluntarily, but there were many who were forcibly transplanted from the British Isles to the colonies and sold into indentured service against their will. While these forced deportees would have included political prisoners and serious felons, it is believed that the majority came from the poor and vulnerable... In any case, all bar the serious felons were freed once the term of their contract expired.


                                The prevalence and endurance of this myth is partly due to the fact that it is buttressed by two long-standing narratives. The first narrative comes from the arena of Irish nationalism, where the term 'slavery' is used to highlight the political, social and religious subjugation or persecution that the Irish have historically suffered...

                                The second narrative is of a more sinister nature. Found in the websites and forums of white supremacist conspiracy theorists, this insidiously claims that indentured servitude can be equated with chattel slavery. From Stormfront.org, a self-described online community of white nationalists, to David Icke’s February 2014 interview with Infowars.com, the narrative of the ‘White slaves’ is continuously promoted. The most influential book to claim that there was ‘white slavery’ in Colonial America was Michael Hoffman’s They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America. Self-published in 1993, Hoffman, a Holocaust denier, unsurprisingly blames the Atlantic slave trade on the Jews. By blurring the lines between the different forms of unfree labour, these white supremacists seek to conceal the incontestable fact that these slavocracies were controlled by—and operated for the benefit of—white Europeans. This narrative, which exists almost exclusively in the United States, is essentially a form of nativism and racism masquerading as conspiracy theory. Those that push this narrative have now adopted the ‘Irish slaves’ myth, and they use it as a rhetorical ‘attack dog’ which aims to shut down all debate about the legacy of black slavery in the United States.

                                In the wake of the Ferguson shooting, both of these narratives were conjoined in a particularly ugly fashion. Many social media users, including some Irish-Americans, invoked this mythology to chide African-Americans for protesting against the structural racism that exists in the United States (see a collection of tweets on ‘Irish slaves’, gathered by the author). Furthermore, they used these falsehoods to mock African-American calls for reparations for slavery, stating “my Irish ancestors were the first slaves in America, where are my reparations?” Those that share links to spurious ‘Irish slavery’ articles on social media have also been appending their posts with the hashtags #Ferguson and #NoExcuses. No excuses? This myth of convenience is being utilised by those who are unwilling to accept the truth of their white privilege and the prevalence of an entrenched racism in their societies. There is clearly comfort to be found in denialism.
                                https://www.opendemocracy.net/beyond...onvenient-myth

                                There's a link at the bottom of that article that goes to the original longer, very detailed and pretty convincing article.
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                                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                  The idea of the Irish slave trade has some very dubious origins and is very likely a myth:



                                  https://www.opendemocracy.net/beyond...onvenient-myth

                                  There's a link at the bottom of that article that goes to the original longer, very detailed and pretty convincing article.
                                  Yeah a myth to people who want to change history to justify their position.
                                  The Irish Slave Trade
                                  Let me guess, free blacks owning black slaves is a myth. Blacks in Africa owning and trading in black slaves is a myth.
                                  Only whites in America have owned slaves and they only ever owned black slaves
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                                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                    Yeah a myth to people who want to change history to justify their position.
                                    The Irish Slave Trade
                                    Let me guess, free blacks owning black slaves is a myth. Blacks in Africa owning and trading in black slaves is a myth.
                                    Only whites in America have owned slaves and they only ever owned black slaves
                                    No, it's common knowledge that blacks owned slaves in the US, and sold them in Africa. The Irish slave trade in the colonies looks to be total BS though. You sure did read that article fast, Thom.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

                                The Iris were sold as I retired servants or forced laborers. They lived a hard life but you can't compare them to the slavery of black Americans.
                                Before the Civil War, slaves and indentured servants were considered personal property, and they or their descendants could be sold or inherited like any other personalty. Like other property, human chattel was governed largely by laws of individual states. So yeah you can make the comparison.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

                                The Iris were sold as I retired servants or forced laborers. They lived a hard life but you can't compare them to the slavery of black Americans.
                                You are right. They can't be compared. Read the longer article linked from the one I posted.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      There was racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, KKK, etc... Hell, the Confederate states
                      I'm still waiting to hear what they had in common!

                      They mentioned African slavery specifically and their belief that the Negro race was inferior. Of course it was racial. Good grief. Unbelievable.
                      Well, most of the WHITE slaves were probably officially INDENTURED, so they would be set free, so there WAS a limited number. IRONICALLY, some BLACKS were ALSO! But Europeans didn't sell, and couldn't be easily cheated/tricked in this way, so they went to africans. Of course, some white AMERICANS were trapped into it abroad! For some reason, it was referred to a bit WELL into the 20th century, though I haven't heard of it lately. It IS in wikipedia though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing

                      IT was enabled by a STUPID law written in the late 18th century, that was overturned in the late 19th century, and early 20th century.

                      Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              ... But I guess taking down a symbol is more important that putting that effort into ending slavery. I imagine the outrage isn't there because the majority of slaves in this country today are white and their cause is being carried by Christian groups. The New White Slave Trade » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
              Symbolism is everything, Thom, not substance or actions. Well - not everything, I guess. Feelings matter, too.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        How about trying the USA flag?
        I do - there's one in the back window of my truck, one on my motorcycle, one above my garage, and another on my vest - where are yours (Do you even own one)?

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, I love the name of that party ........TS. Yeah, I AM calling it confederate, simply because others are. It IS obviously based on at least a common source from the battle flag. That nearly all white one was too close to surrender. I think the followup just looked dumb. Maybe they did also.

    Still, about that party name.... What does it remind YOU of? WHY do you think it is so close?

    As for mosby? WHY would any supporter say such a thing?

    And if the flag actually did mean, "I don't want to be with blacks", then at least they let the blacks know where they stand. Wasn't louisiana one of those states though?

    louisiana confederate flag - Google Search

    Have you ever been there? I guess nobody got the memo!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    This article sums it up pretty good:

    http://thehayride.com/2015/07/americ...ll-the-uproar/

    Mainly because this is a culture war. For the Left, their point is to get across to the public that the Founding Fathers were racists who should have never aided in the American Revolution.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      This article sums it up pretty good:

      http://thehayride.com/2015/07/americ...ll-the-uproar/

      Quote:
      Mainly because this is a culture war. For the Left, their point is to get across to the public that the Founding Fathers were racists who should have never aided in the American Revolution.

      Corny bulls**t.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Why didn't they put the KKK hoodie on the flag also?

        And you're either clueless or full of s*** with your tired, standing up to the federal gov/overreach argument. But you carry on because I know you will.

        Enjoy the 4th!

        I will, because America's slowly becoming the country it should and ought to be.
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Quote:
        Mainly because this is a culture war. For the Left, their point is to get across to the public that the Founding Fathers were racists who should have never aided in the American Revolution.

        Corny bulls**t.
        LOL - your buttons are so easy to push.

        I will keep carrying on, because the country is moving away from freedom and liberty and I will fight people like you, who love the idea of the power of a tyrannical central government, every step of the way.

        I will enjoy the 4th, thanks! I will, because what is written in the Declaration of Independence is timeless, and illustrates perfectly that the fight for freedom and liberty is a never-ending battle against the likes of folks who hate those ideals.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          I will enjoy the 4th, thanks! I will, because what is written in the Declaration of Independence is timeless, and illustrates perfectly that the fight for freedom and liberty is a never-ending battle against the likes of folks who hate those ideals.
          Ironically, the "colonies" broke away from(got independence from) England because of different ideals and demands of the king. NOW many see the "tea party" as a thing to make fun of, and scorn, but during the period of the revolutionary war, it helped CREATE this country. July 4th is supposed to be to remember THAT and CELEBRATE it! Those people did NOT fight and/or DIE to merely have the SAME thing!

          Frankly, I wish all that want to change back to what this country was AGAINST would go to Africa, Britain, or Russia, to have what they claim to want. HEY GUYS! Did YOU know that England even speaks substantially the SAME language? There may be places in Africa that do. And learning another language isn't that hard.

          You want the taxes, and to be able to openly scorn the tea party? GOTO BRITAIN! Are you upset with the non black/brown majority? GOTO AFRICA! Do you think we give too little assistance, that unions should be GODS, etc.... GOTO RUSSIA! I'm sure you'll LOVE IT!

          Think prison sentences are too long? MAYBE go to a scandinavian country. You can CONFESS to a HEINOUS crime, killing several people, and STILL get 16 years, OR LESS! And they have a HIGH TAX! And they have a HIGH MINIMUM WAGE! YUMMY! OH, and they DO have a lot of ummmm SUPPORT! BEWARE THOUGH, they HAVE done studies on the relationship of unemployment duration and unemployment support. YEAH, they were burned a bit too often. And HEY, Danish, Norwegian, and at least some of Swedish is, I think, EASY. A lot of danes know English though. They WILL, however, INSIST that you display SOME fluency to become a citizen, or work. Of course, with your refugee status, you can have THAT mitigated ALSO!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author alistair
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Frankly, I wish all that want to change back to what this country was AGAINST would go to Africa, Britain, or Russia, to have what they claim to want. HEY GUYS! Did YOU know that England even speaks substantially the SAME language? There may be places in Africa that do. And learning another language isn't that hard.

            Steve
            Yeah why not come over to Britain because life is so harsh here we need foreigners to help us share the burden of our tyrannical rulers. We got Wimbledon going on at the moment, it's the British grand Prix on Sunday, we got the Ashes coming up, and so far it's a balmy English summer.

            We don't worry that our Government has got it in for us all, we don't go around shooting each other (not too much anyway), we have class, we have culture, we have history, we have decorum, and as Seasoned says we even basically speak the same lingo. Who would have thunk it?

            Yes life in Britain will suit anybody that wants to lose their freedom.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      This article sums it up pretty good:

      http://thehayride.com/2015/07/americ...ll-the-uproar/
      Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Compromise

      INTERESTING, it has TWO parts!

      The problem was referred to a committee consisting of one delegate from each State to reach a compromise. On July 5, the committee submitted its report, which became the basis for the “Great Compromise" of the Convention. The report recommended that in the upper house each State should have an equal vote and in the lower house, each State should have one representative for every 40,000 inhabitants, counting slaves as three-fifths of an inhabitant, and that money bills should originate in the lower house (not subject to amendment by the upper chamber).
      One group will mistranslate the first made for THEM to try to hurt another, but will CONVENIENTLY IGNORE the second, when it suits them!

      BTW that was actually BENEFICIAL to the slaves. By giving their "masters" less representation, their life was better, and freedom was easier to attain. And the part about not allowing the senate to hold the house hostage(By choosing what the country should fund, and insisting it must pass) helped that also.

      Anyway, the fact that there had to be a COMPROMISE, that the south had so few members, and that the south lost and the loss was accepted on both sides, at least publicly, defeats a LOT of arguments.

      AND, not in any way condoning slavery, the quotes by TYT on RT above DO show that they did this because historically it has been done around the world, and they did it to get manpower. It wasn't done solely, as some seem to think, to torment people, and they weren't the first to do it. AGAIN, I am certainly NOT condoning it. And HEY, even as a kid, I liked the idea of automats better than the old kitchen type things they used to have. MAYBE, in a few years or so, they may even have mini mcdonalds that automatically do everything. It won't be great for employment, but people won't have to worry about THAT menial task!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Lets don't forget that racism swings both ways.

    How many white, hispanic or asian people have went to college because of the UNCF?

    That is racism.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    LMAO, it's gone from a racist flag to a terrorist flag. What's next?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      LMAO, it's gone from a racist flag to a terrorist flag. What's next?
      Perhaps proof that "ignorance" has many faces...
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      LMAO, it's gone from a racist flag to a terrorist flag. What's next?
      What's even funnier is that it isn't even the actual Confederate States of America flag. It was just the state of Virginia's battle flag.
      Confederate Flag
      Nope. Nothing racist there from the creator of the second Confederate flag.
      It was a battle flag not a second CSA flag. The reason is in the quote. But that's not the flag you show with the battle flag in the corner of a white flag.
      The confusion caused by the similarity in the flags was of great concern to Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard. He suggested that the Confederate national flag be changed to something completely different, to avoid confusion in battle in the future. This idea was rejected by the Confederate government. Beauregard then suggested that there should be two flags. One, the National flag, and the second one being a battle flag, with the battle flag being completely different from the United States flag.
      That quote is from the above link.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Them Duke boys are at it again...









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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    Throughout all this, one thing remains. The flag isn't going anywhere.

    Good luck trying to pry that out of a racist redneck's hands.

    So my point is, it's all wasted energy keeping people's eyes off the bullshit that's really happening. The old magician's trick. Watch the left while the right robs your true freedoms and you think you're making a "difference".

    It's even worse that I've let myself get sucked into it. Knowing that this really will never be changed, and people will always fly the flag, doesn't it seem like a waste of energy trying to change it?

    Why not spend that energy changing the urban school system? Creating small business clubs for youths. There's a million things all this pent up energy could actually change.


    To another point, where's all the CEOs with balls at these days. I'd buy their products just because they had testicular fortitude. Seeing Warner Bros roll over even after they've created an instantly recognized icon is pretty depressing, to be honest.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

      people will always fly the flag, doesn't it seem like a waste of energy trying to change it?.
      I want them to fly it. It makes it easier for me to spot goobers as opposed to having to read their bumper stickers or to ask if they are married to their sister. That's such a delicate question.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I want them to fly it. It makes it easier for me to spot goobers as opposed to having to read their bumper stickers or to ask if they are married to their sister. That's such a delicate question.

        Cheers. - Frank
        But there's so many -- drive through Middleburg, FL and you'll see about 5 miles worth of entertainment through bumper stickers.

        You don't have to ask them, you can pretty much assume they married their second cousin (since it's not actually blood -- or something) and only sleep with their sister.

        Regardless, there's actual level headed people in the world who don't give a rats about the flag, and fly it because they're southern.

        I'm in the south, and I can say that people in downtown Jacksonville fly the flag, so if there was a true problem with it they wouldn't have their trucks anymore. It's not exactly a friendly place after dark, yanno?

        When I lived in Savannah, GA you saw a confederate flag next to just about every Georgia and US flag. They're not all promoting racism, and they're not all racists.

        But yeah, in the end, people are still going to fly it, so this really is an un-winnable battle that's just wasting energy and keeping people away from the big picture.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Synnuh View Post

          When I lived in Savannah, GA you saw a confederate flag next to just about every Georgia and US flag. They're not all promoting racism, and they're not all racists.
          That's very true, but most are goobers.

          Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        ... That's such a delicate question.

        Cheers. - Frank
        Since when have you ever been bothered with delicacy?
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          Since when have you ever been bothered with delicacy?
          Since I entered the monastery. You hadn't heard?

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Since I entered the monastery. You hadn't heard?

            Cheers. - Frank
            Guess I wasn't here the day you announced that, sorry.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Personally, I'd like the world to be snorting coke. There would be fewer threads like this one. :-(

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    Here is something I posted on Facebook a few days ago...


    This flag is NOT just about slavery. There were many reasons for the south to split and go to war with the north. For some people it is also a banner of southern pride. People who display this flag are NOT RACIST.


    Some are proud of their heritage, good and bad alike, and see nothing sinister about this flag. Those crying for the confederate flag to come down because it is offensive, they need to take a strong look inwards. These same people have been offending others with no ...regard to anyone else's feelings and act like they are somehow more deserving of having their own beliefs pushed on others without any consideration to any other viewpoint other than their own.


    I swear, America needs to wake up, put on her big country panties and stop being a winy little brat. Nothing will ever change in this country unless people start owning up to their own shortcomings before going on national television spouting off about what everyone else is doing that offends their dainty little world. It's time for America to grow up, shut up, and put Political Correctness in the trash where it belongs.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~


    I'm from the south, having lived in Mississippi, Alabama, and Texas. My family at one time did own slaves, and they were treated with respect. My family graveyard even has over 30 slaves buried right beside my ancestors.


    The flag that everyone is so bent out of shape about isn't even the "flag of the south" as some would have everyone believe. The flag in question was a battle flag which was actually used by a small number of people.


    Now, I do believe that way back when blacks were treated badly, all the way up until the 60's but not a single white person alive has ever had "slaves." No black person alive has been a slave and so they are not entitled to anything by whites now.


    This whole thing is just one in thousands of smoke and mirror shows that the government uses all the time. While everyone is all up in arms about this or that pressing issue, take a break from all the dog and pony show and look at what your leaders are doing behind your back.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      Here is something I posted on Facebook a few days ago...
      You'll find that facts don't matter to some people down here. Perception is reality, and if your perception isn't what they say it should be then you are in the wrong. No amount of logic or truth will make a difference.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        A little bit about Jefferson:

        Jefferson was always deeply committed to slavery, and even more deeply hostile to the welfare of blacks, slave or free. His proslavery views were shaped not only by money and status but also by his deeply racist views, which he tried to justify through pseudoscience...

        he opposed both private manumission and public emancipation. Even at his death, Jefferson failed to fulfill the promise of his rhetoric: his will emancipated only five slaves, all relatives of his mistress Sally Hemings, and condemned nearly 200 others to the auction block. Even Hemings remained a slave, though her children by Jefferson went free.
        Nor was Jefferson a particularly kind master. He sometimes punished slaves by selling them away from their families and friends, a retaliation that was incomprehensibly cruel even at the time. A proponent of humane criminal codes for whites, he advocated harsh, almost barbaric, punishments for slaves and free blacks. Known for expansive views of citizenship, he proposed legislation to make emancipated blacks “outlaws” in America, the land of their birth. Opposed to the idea of royal or noble blood, he proposed expelling from Virginia the children of white women and black men.

        Jefferson also dodged opportunities to undermine slavery or promote racial equality. As a state legislator he blocked consideration of a law that might have eventually ended slavery in the state.

        As president he acquired the Louisiana Territory but did nothing to stop the spread of slavery into that vast “empire of liberty.” Jefferson told his neighbor Edward Coles not to emancipate his own slaves, because free blacks were “pests in society” who were “as incapable as children of taking care of themselves.” And while he wrote a friend that he sold slaves only as punishment or to unite families, he sold at least 85 humans in a 10-year period to raise cash to buy wine, art and other luxury goods.

        Destroying families didn’t bother Jefferson, because he believed blacks lacked basic human emotions. “Their griefs are transient,” he wrote, and their love lacked “a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”

        Jefferson claimed he had “never seen an elementary trait of painting or sculpture” or poetry among blacks and argued that blacks’ ability to “reason” was “much inferior” to whites’, while “in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.” He conceded that blacks were brave, but this was because of “a want of fore-thought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present.”

        A scientist, Jefferson nevertheless speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”
        http://nytimes.com/2012/12/01/opinio...html?referrer=
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          We need to get him off Mt. Rushmore!!! I vote to replace him with Slick Willie or Big O.
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    • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
      [QUOTE=

      I'm from the south, having lived in Mississippi, Alabama, and Texas. My family at one time did own slaves, and they were treated with respect. My family graveyard even has over 30 slaves buried right beside my ancestors.


      [/QUOTE]

      There is something so disturbing about this statement and the fact that you see this in a positive light. This just tells me that you just do not have the ability to walk in another persons shoes other than your own.
      The fact that they were slaves was disrespectful. Do you think the 30 slaves buried beside your ancestors wouldn't rather have been buried next to their family members? Just how do you treat a slave with respect?
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

        There is something so disturbing about this statement and the fact that you see this in a positive light. This just tells me that you just do not have the ability to walk in another persons shoes other than your own.
        The fact that they were slaves was disrespectful. Do you think the 30 slaves buried beside your ancestors wouldn't rather have been buried next to their family members? Just how do you treat a slave with respect?



        Well, considering that they "were buried beside their family and ancestors" I would call that a sign of respect, not of distain as is touted way to often these days.


        Also, you have no idea about my ability to walk in anyone else's shoes. As someone who buried my only son when he was only 8 years old, who was a U. S. Army soldier who served in the 101st, who spent 15 years as a Merchant Marine, was groomsman at an all black wedding, you have no idea what paths I have taken and crossed.


        What I take as a positive light is that no black man has been a slave to a white man for a very, very long time. You can't condemn someone now for things that happened over 100 years ago.


        Using your logic not only was "your" family most likely owners of slaves at one point, but their ancestors were also likely to have been slaves to the English.


        Now, the fact that you see nothing wrong with looking down your nose at someone whose only sin is having the misfortune of having an ancestor who might have, or did have, slaves at some point makes you a bigot and a racist, if we are going to use the logic, or more correctly the lack thereof, you seem to display.


        I have not once ever wronged anyone else. I have never shown a single trace of racism and you show the same intolerance that you are accusing others of.


        Because my family did something 200 years ago has no bearing on who I am now or how I live my life now. Isn't it ironic that the people crying injustice at the top of their voice are the same ones who dole out huge injustice against anyone who doesn't share their skewed world view and belief system.


        Edited to add:


        I have great empathy for all people who were slaves but as I said above, no one alive in the U.S. is a slave. We may have people treated unjustly but there is not the entire slavery, blacks are not equal issues of days past.


        Now, finally, my last point of the night. The second a black man was elected as the most powerful man in the world, the entire issue of whites not treating blacks with respect has been a moot point. Every single issue brought up about race in the last few years has been by a small group of people who create small pockets of blacks attacking whites with the only reason for the issue to exist is to distract people from looking too deep at the world stage.
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        • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
          OMG! You still have no clue. You don't even understand the main point of my post. You just painted yourself
          a victim. Maybe you should reread what I wrote. No my ancestors did not own any slaves.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      My family at one time did own slaves, and they were treated with respect.
      I'm reading this in 2015. A very, very hard thing to believe.

      Whom is it that needs to look inward. lol

      Cheers. - Frank

      P.S. Yes, I beat my wife, but I never leave any serious bruising. I respect her way too much.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    While I am at it, there are no group of people or individuals asking for the dukes of hazard car to be taken of the market or calling for the show to be cancelled. The companies that are selling the car and the networks that are hosting the show are doing this all on their own. No one is calling out individuals that have the flag on their car or flying it on their front porch. The offended people just don't want to see it on their state capital.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    So you are saying that I am a bigot or a racist because I looked down on those that owned slaves?
    I don't think it makes me either just judgmental. I wasn't looking down on them, they can't defend themselves as it was in the past and they are no longer living. I was being critical of you. You can't say slaves of any kind are being treated with respect and think it is true and positive. That's like saying Cosby treated his alleged victims with respect by offering them a job and mentoring. Then violating their bodies without their consent. Where is the good in that?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    I vowed to leave this thread when it got too ridiculous, but I can't believe what I just read either.

    Johnny, I am trying to say this in a way that is not personally offensive (although you did give me permission to drop the PC crap lol).

    I want you to think really hard about your life, then imagine it again with all personal freedom stripped away. Working for slaveowners. Eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom, learning and even staying alive at the whim of someone who thinks so little of you as a human being that they are willing to be complicit in the stripmining of your humanity itself.

    You say you lost a son? I am very sorry for your loss. It must have been devastating, and no parent should ever have to endure that pain. Slaves routinely had their families torn apart - from the moment they were forced out of their homes in Africa to the moment they died, the choices of who lived, who died, who was sold or traded away or placed in an auction were made without their involvement or consent.

    That is the sin your ancestors are guilty of. It is utterly irrelevant that they believed they treated their slaves with "respect" - clearly they didn't understand the true meaning of the word.

    I respect my employees. I don't own them. They are free to make personal choices that ultimately could affect me negatively. That is the price I pay for not owning them.

    When I need a reality check, I sometimes imagine myself walking in the shoes of my ancestors. They were slaves too, in a different context. They were victims of the Nazi holocaust. This fantasy is too depressing and painful to stay in for even a minute, and I have to snap myself out of it quickly.

    There is nothing you can do to change the past. But your ancestors have placed a tremendous burden on you. Every moment you spend not working to fix the racial problems of the present is a moment of destiny you have squandered. Refusing to acknowledge the sins of your ancestors makes this job impossible to start.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    My fathers family lived in apparently one state for the 150 or so years they were here. That state never allowed slavery.

    Jack,

    Why don't you walk in HIS shoes? OK, the idea of burying the dead together is meaningless in every sense of the word, but Johnny SHOULDN'T have to be burdened by what people of his race have done. If you dispute that, than NO WHITE here can chastise me even if I took a black off the street, beat him, and kept him as a slave, because THEY have, in effect, done the SAME! And NO black could complain EITHER, since people from THEIR race did the same, AND WORSE, to MINE, EVEN IN THE PAST WEEK AND LIKELY TODAY!

    THEN AGAIN, so many say that the white race came from the black, so the reasoning fails on THAT level ALSO!

    And HOW many blacks here have been slaves? HOW many even had RELATIVES, even going back 400-500 years? And ANOTHER thing! Name ONE US state that has been here even 300 years ago!

    JUST TODAY, I was thinking about how some people spoke of how the Americans supposedly said this and that. Thanks to the PC garbage, there is no way to prove ANY of it, so I have NO idea if it is true. It sounds STUPID, however, because the NAZIs apparently had more respect for the jewish people than that, and NOBODY in the US ever breathed a word of it. And so I was thinking of bringing up the idea of the tuskegee airmen.

    I am talking of the bomber escorts here. THEIR job was to surround the bomber so no enemy fighters got through. They were to stay in formation as much as possible to maintain that goal. The enemy fighters job, of course, was to shoot down the bomber to limit any damage. To do that, they often had to try to get the fighters to break formation, or attack them.

    SUPPOSEDLY the white pilots often broke formation, and bombers weren't crazy about it. According to the movie, the tuskegee airmen were headed by a SMART and DEDICATED black person, and he DEMANDED that they stay, and they stayed! They go on to say that the bombers loved them SOOOOOOO MUCH that they FOUGHT, LITERALLY, for the right of the tuskegee airmen to join them in the white officers only area. Even most WHITES weren't allowed there, and blacks certainly weren't, but the movie claimed that the bomber crew demanded that they be allowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen Of course, with all the PC garbage, all of that may only be a myth. I don't care if it is in history books, or if they have the 50 highest awards given by all of the US government. PC has tainted it all. It makes for a good story though, REGARDLESS of their race.

    OH, and HEY! They WERE in WWII!

    As for what the NAZIs said about the Jewish people? Let's just say that many blacks say the SAME about WHITES today. Some females say the same about men. Many today say it about the rich.
    YEAH, the current world is not that far removed from germany just before WWII. In FACT, the ToV has been proposed, and is being passed, on the WORLD! It's NEW name is "AGENDA 21" OH, it may SOUND nice, like ToV did, but read the DETAILS! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21 And MANY are waiting for the inflation to take off, though the governments are making EVERY effort to make sure it HAS TO! And the white "cis" male is the new jew. YEP, we have all the pieces ready to go! Propaganda and all is ready to go. The last piece of the puzzle, was first put into effect about 3 or so years ago. SOME states supposedly are trying to avoid it, but it keeps coming back.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Jack, Why don't you walk in HIS shoes?
      It is not about my lack of empathy for him. He sounds like he has had a privileged life. Good for him. But to carry the history of slavery in his family and propagate the fantasy that it was ok because they "respected" their slaves is a ludicrous self delusion. Undoubtedly, if he has a conscience, it is a self-defense mechanism to ease the burden. But this is not a burden that should be eased. It should be exposed, acknowledged, apologized for and compensated.

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      OK, the idea of burying the dead together is meaningless in every sense of the word, but Johnny SHOULDN'T have to be burdened by what people of his race have done.
      I didn't say he should be burdened by what his race has done. I said he should be burdened by what his family has done.

      However, I don't entirely disagree with the premise that the American government still bears responsibility for the condition of the African American community as a whole. To steal them from their lands, take all of their possessions and freedoms for several generations, then begrudgingly undo their active oppression and send them out to make a life for themselves without reparations seems like a very viable explanation for why that community is still suffering economically and socially.

      I don't know the right solution to that problem, but I do know that whatever has been done to date is inadequate to the injustice inflicted upon them.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post


        However, I don't entirely disagree with the premise that the American government still bears responsibility for the condition of the African American community as a whole. To steal them from their lands, take all of their possessions and freedoms for several generations, then begrudgingly undo their active oppression and send them out to make a life for themselves without reparations seems like a very viable explanation for why that community is still suffering economically and socially.
        Yes, and the oppression lasted another 100 years after slavery ended. Well said, Jack.
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    • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
      This post is a little disturbing,hateful,nonfactual,
      tinged with something I can't quite put a finger on and unhinged at the end.


      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      My fathers family lived in apparently one state for the 150 or so years they were here. That state never allowed slavery.

      Jack,

      Why don't you walk in HIS shoes? OK, the idea of burying the dead together is meaningless in every sense of the word, but Johnny SHOULDN'T have to be burdened by what people of his race have done. If you dispute that, than NO WHITE here can chastise me even if I took a black off the street, beat him, and kept him as a slave, because THEY have, in effect, done the SAME! And NO black could complain EITHER, since people from THEIR race did the same, AND WORSE, to MINE, EVEN IN THE PAST WEEK AND LIKELY TODAY!

      THEN AGAIN, so many say that the white race came from the black, so the reasoning fails on THAT level ALSO!

      And HOW many blacks here have been slaves? HOW many even had RELATIVES, even going back 400-500 years? And ANOTHER thing! Name ONE US state that has been here even 300 years ago!

      JUST TODAY, I was thinking about how some people spoke of how the Americans supposedly said this and that. Thanks to the PC garbage, there is no way to prove ANY of it, so I have NO idea if it is true. It sounds STUPID, however, because the NAZIs apparently had more respect for the jewish people than that, and NOBODY in the US ever breathed a word of it. And so I was thinking of bringing up the idea of the tuskegee airmen.

      I am talking of the bomber escorts here. THEIR job was to surround the bomber so no enemy fighters got through. They were to stay in formation as much as possible to maintain that goal. The enemy fighters job, of course, was to shoot down the bomber to limit any damage. To do that, they often had to try to get the fighters to break formation, or attack them.

      SUPPOSEDLY the white pilots often broke formation, and bombers weren't crazy about it. According to the movie, the tuskegee airmen were headed by a SMART and DEDICATED black person, and he DEMANDED that they stay, and they stayed! They go on to say that the bombers loved them SOOOOOOO MUCH that they FOUGHT, LITERALLY, for the right of the tuskegee airmen to join them in the white officers only area. Even most WHITES weren't allowed there, and blacks certainly weren't, but the movie claimed that the bomber crew demanded that they be allowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen Of course, with all the PC garbage, all of that may only be a myth. I don't care if it is in history books, or if they have the 50 highest awards given by all of the US government. PC has tainted it all. It makes for a good story though, REGARDLESS of their race.

      OH, and HEY! They WERE in WWII!

      As for what the NAZIs said about the Jewish people? Let's just say that many blacks say the SAME about WHITES today. Some females say the same about men. Many today say it about the rich.
      YEAH, the current world is not that far removed from germany just before WWII. In FACT, the ToV has been proposed, and is being passed, on the WORLD! It's NEW name is "AGENDA 21" OH, it may SOUND nice, like ToV did, but read the DETAILS! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21 And MANY are waiting for the inflation to take off, though the governments are making EVERY effort to make sure it HAS TO! And the white "cis" male is the new jew. YEP, we have all the pieces ready to go! Propaganda and all is ready to go. The last piece of the puzzle, was first put into effect about 3 or so years ago. SOME states supposedly are trying to avoid it, but it keeps coming back.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    They had the knowledge and the understanding. Not everyone believed slavery was just, otherwise slavery would have continued another couple hundred years. Just because there wasn't a name for racism does not mean it didn't exist. Just because it was economical doesn't cancel out that it till represents racism.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      They had the knowledge and the understanding. Not everyone believed slavery was just, otherwise slavery would have continued another couple hundred years. Just because there wasn't a name for racism does not mean it didn't exist. Just because it was economical doesn't cancel out that it till represents racism.
      At all times through history there have been people who believe in equality. But just as today they have always been the minority.
      Do you think Lincoln ended slavery because he believed it was unjust? No he ended it (in the Union states) so that run away slaves wouldn't be sent back which he knew would weaken the south. When his generals started complaining about all the "freed" blacks that had to care for in what amounted to internment camps he decided they could be recruited into the army in segregated units.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    "But just as today they have always been in the minority"
    I don't think it's the minority who believe in equality TODAY,I believe the majority of people believe in it.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    As long as we're on the subject of (remotely, agreed) of racist historical figures, let's look at these:

    There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...
    In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."
    I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
    I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.
    Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed b a s t a r d s may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.
    Maybe we should take Abraham Lincoln down from Mt. Rushmore, too? Then we'd have room for both Slick Willie and Big O.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Again why didn't they pick white Americans who were in a majority, meaning easy pickins to be used as slaves right here in the USA.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Again why didn't they pick white Americans who were in a majority, meaning easy pickins to be used as slaves right here in the USA.
      If you had read any of the links I posted about slavery you'd already have your answer. Undergraduate Research Journal for the Human Sciences
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        If you had read any of the links I posted about slavery you'd already have your answer. Undergraduate Research Journal for the Human Sciences

        Since some seem to be more interested in furthering their own biased views about slavery being about the white man holding the black man down here is something from the link that Thom posted.






        Modern day bondage has not been confined to blacks. Contradicting the popular belief that race hatred or white racism (Van Deburg, 1984) was the basis for slavery, are the numerous accounts of Christian-Americans held in slavery by North Africans during the time of the European colonization of America. Baeplar's (1999) collection of Barbary captivity narratives recounts the suffering and humiliating conditions suffered by white slaves. Barbary slaves, however, were not born into captivity nor stolen from their homelands. Their captivity resulted in the course of travels while engaging in mercantile or military enterprises. Barbary slavery was not tied to skin color but as Baeplar makes clear, it was the result "of a legacy of mutual hostility between North Africa and the West" (1999, p. xi).

        So, if whites owe the blacks something because whites held blacks as slaves 200 years ago... then blacks owe the whites something because whites as slaves to blacks happened long before the U.S. was a country.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Are you saying that north Africans were black?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    The British Crusade Against Slavery


    Very enlightening stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      "Just where the hell did the idea that the "flag" is racist come from? "

      Umm, from the guy who designed it for one. Let me post what he said about it:

      "As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG."
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Don't you find it highly suspect that all the information on the internet about Irish slavery starts out with the same sentence"They came as slaves; vast human cargo transported on tall British ships bound for the Americas. They were shipped by the hundreds of thousands and included men, women, and even the youngest of children." Every site had the same article with no references as to where they go their information. Just as you did HeySal. Where did you get your information from. Not a book on Irish history I imagine.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Don't you find it highly suspect that all the information on the internet about Irish slavery starts out with the same sentence"They came as slaves; vast human cargo transported on tall British ships bound for the Americas. They were shipped by the hundreds of thousands and included men, women, and even the youngest of children." Every site had the same article with no references as to where they go their information. Just as you did HeySal. Where did you get your information from. Not a book on Irish history I imagine.
      Okay - here's some online resources for you:
      University of Minnesota:
      University of Minnesota Human Rights Library

      This is a project of Yale University.
      Gilder Lehrman Center Index of Online Documents

      Go between the lines on this one - 1640, July 9 entry. Both white and black servants. The white was punished less severely, but this is how all indentured servants became slaves. The saving grace for the Irish is that they were Christian when "kidnapped". From Ferris State University
      Jim Crow Museum: Timeline

      Here's from the University of Houston. It has to be remembered that US history began before we were actually anything more than an English owned colony - our slaves then were called servants, and some came from Europe with their "servants", they didn't buy them here. Slavery pre-dates the formation of our nation. the Colonies were an economic boom for the crown. So....African slaves came later.
      http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/dis...tid=2&psid=449

      These are just a few references. Some Universities don't make their resources public - you have to either pay for access or be registered or employed by the school to access them.
      Here's a book you might find interesting:
      White Cargo | The Forgotten History of Britain

      If you're waiting for the gov to admit it - forget it. They're still busy lying about our complete history regarding Native Americans. Look up the real meaning of Thanksgiving and ask any American of any color if they realized it was a day of massacre instead of a community lunch. Government paints our history to read as they want us to read it. Period.

      Also - remember, that this is an important issue to whites. We are constantly having blaming fingers pointed at us. Slavery wasn't our invention. It was in every country on earth in those times and in every culture and it didn't start with the American Revolution. It was already established and a global practice. We (Americans) worked, fought, and died to ban it. We do not deserve the abject criticism we are getting for it.

      We are often publicly called "crackers" by many racist blacks and to be called a slave owner is extremely disgusting and extremely racist. I have never owned a slave. Nobody in my family ever, at least as far back as our US history, has ever owned a slave. You call me a slave owner to my face and don't expect anywhere near a pleasant response. I'm sick of it. It's called reverse discrimination and it's gone about as far as it can go without starting race wars. It's high time to end it.

      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      The same institution does not exist today.
      Chattel slavery is the type of slavery that black Americans were forced to suffer. It is no were near the same as modern day slavery(Bondage labor, forced labor, and forced marriage). Remember chattel slavery was legal. So was killing a slave(man,women, or child) Today this type of slavery(chattel) is outlawed.
      Are you seriously this naive? Do you understand what is happening to millions of women worldwide - or doesn't it matter because they are "just" women?

      I happen to also be involved in organizations working to stop slavery in the present. What are you doing about it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Also - remember, that this is an important issue to whites. We are constantly having blaming fingers pointed at us. Slavery wasn't our invention. It was in every country on earth in those times and in every culture and it didn't start with the American Revolution. It was already established and a global practice. We (Americans) worked, fought, and died to ban it. We do not deserve the abject criticism we are getting for it.

        I don't think it could be put any better than that.


        I am a white American, I was born 49 years ago. Around the time of my birth is when blacks finally got equal treatment by law in this country. I have never personally treated anyone, of any race, as being not equal to me.


        There are people alive now who treated blacks as worse than dirt, but those people are just a few of the white Americans now living. If you want to say that "Bobby Joe Somebody" personally treated blacks harshly and should pay for that treatment I'm right there with you.


        The problem is that all white people, regardless of age or actions, are being told we put the black man down and we should repay them in some way.


        Guess what.... you can't paint all white Americans with a broad brush and say we are all racist because we are white and whites were cruel to blacks a long time ago. That is no different than in the past whites treated all blacks the same.


        Is there racism in this country still? Without a doubt it is.
        Who in this day and age shows the most hatred of another race? It isn't the whites.


        It is quite ironic that everyone still thinks that everyone in the south is racist, when my travels as a Merchant Marine shows that the south is now the most accepting area of the country. I have witnessed, and been a victim of, more intolerance of my being white during 3 days in Chicago than my entire lifetime in the south.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          The problem is that all white people, regardless of age or actions, are being told we put the black man down and we should repay them in some way.
          ummm... yeah. It was called slavery. Look it up.

          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          Guess what.... you can't paint all white Americans with a broad brush and say we are all racist because we are white and whites were cruel to blacks a long time ago.
          I don't think anybody in this conversation has said or even implied that. But I certainly understand why you would want to throw it out there.

          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          Is there racism in this country still? Without a doubt it is.
          Who in this day and age shows the most hatred of another race? It isn't the whites.

          It is quite ironic that everyone still thinks that everyone in the south is racist, when my travels as a Merchant Marine shows that the south is now the most accepting area of the country. I have witnessed, and been a victim of, more intolerance of my being white during 3 days in Chicago than my entire lifetime in the south.
          Wait, you are saying "the blacks" show resentment toward "the whites" in large urban areas?

          I find that shocking. Appalling. Almost like they are carrying some sort of "historical" grudge? Maybe they need to hear the message that there were some "respectful" slave owners in the past.

          Every time my 11-year-old son does something we all know was bad, he likes to use the phase "that was in the past, dad. focus on the future"

          The problem with that approach, of course, is that if you refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past you'll never properly understand the problems they caused in the present.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

            I don't think anybody in this conversation has said or even implied that. But I certainly understand why you would want to throw it out there.
            He has been kind enough to fill in his context though. Despite his claims of the south its not even the least bit surprising that he is spewing it with his location listed as Alabama.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post




              OF COURSE NOT! That is TOO MUCH WORK! NOPE, they get the government to steal it!
              And there you have it. :/
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                And there you have it. :/
                I am prepared to offer a reasonable workable framework for reparations. If in return for all the stolen African slaves brought here if a present day African can steal Steve and whisk him away via the middle passage

                All debts will be considered paid.
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            • Profile picture of the author bennie07
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post



              OF COURSE NOT! That is TOO MUCH WORK! NOPE, they get the government to steal it!

              Steve
              Excuse me, but your prejudice is showing. You may want to tuck that back in.
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      • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Okay - here's some online resources for you:
        University of Minnesota:
        University of Minnesota Human Rights Library

        This is a project of Yale University.
        Gilder Lehrman Center Index of Online Documents

        Go between the lines on this one - 1640, July 9 entry. Both white and black servants. The white was punished less severely, but this is how all indentured servants became slaves. The saving grace for the Irish is that they were Christian when "kidnapped". From Ferris State University
        Jim Crow Museum: Timeline

        Here's from the University of Houston. It has to be remembered that US history began before we were actually anything more than an English owned colony - our slaves then were called servants, and some came from Europe with their "servants", they didn't buy them here. Slavery pre-dates the formation of our nation. the Colonies were an economic boom for the crown. So....African slaves came later.
        Digital History

        These are just a few references. Some Universities don't make their resources public - you have to either pay for access or be registered or employed by the school to access them.
        Here's a book you might find interesting:
        White Cargo | The Forgotten History of Britain

        If you're waiting for the gov to admit it - forget it. They're still busy lying about our complete history regarding Native Americans. Look up the real meaning of Thanksgiving and ask any American of any color if they realized it was a day of massacre instead of a community lunch. Government paints our history to read as they want us to read it. Period.

        Also - remember, that this is an important issue to whites. We are constantly having blaming fingers pointed at us. Slavery wasn't our invention. It was in every country on earth in those times and in every culture and it didn't start with the American Revolution. It was already established and a global practice. We (Americans) worked, fought, and died to ban it. We do not deserve the abject criticism we are getting for it.

        We are often publicly called "crackers" by many racist blacks and to be called a slave owner is extremely disgusting and extremely racist. I have never owned a slave. Nobody in my family ever, at least as far back as our US history, has ever owned a slave. You call me a slave owner to my face and don't expect anywhere near a pleasant response. I'm sick of it. It's called reverse discrimination and it's gone about as far as it can go without starting race wars. It's high time to end it.



        Are you seriously this naive? Do you understand what is happening to millions of women worldwide - or doesn't it matter because they are "just" women?

        I happen to also be involved in organizations working to stop slavery in the present. What are you doing about it?
        Sorry you hate being called a cracker. It must suck to walk down the street and hear people yelling a racial slur at you. To be called a slave owner on top of that. How often does that happen?Must be a lot. How many race wars have been started over the "N" word?

        I am not doing anything to stop modern day slavery, how does one join one of your organizations?

        None of your links had anything to do with white slavery save one:White Cargo | The Forgotten History of Britain
        So here is my take on that. You should read the whole page, you might see a little bit of yourself.
        The Myth of
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          Sorry you hate being called a cracker. It must suck to walk down the street and hear people yelling a racial slur at you. To be called a slave owner on top of that. How often does that happen?Must be a lot.
          Well that and you can always tell the people who have never really experienced real racism and discrimination. All they can point to with great hurt and indignity is what they might have been called one or two times

          People who really have experienced discrimination could only wish

          Chains, whips , lynchings, slavery, confinement to the back of the bus may hurt my bones, starve my children but words will never kill me

          If the N word was not backed with institutional discrimination and human rights violations we'd laugh and think - those crazy people and that would be the end of it
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          Sorry you hate being called a cracker. It must suck to walk down the street and hear people yelling a racial slur at you. To be called a slave owner on top of that. How often does that happen?Must be a lot. How many race wars have been started over the "N" word?

          I am not doing anything to stop modern day slavery, how does one join one of your organizations?

          None of your links had anything to do with white slavery save one:White Cargo | The Forgotten History of Britain
          So here is my take on that. You should read the whole page, you might see a little bit of yourself.
          The Myth of
          I'm sorry if you could not read the links. They all dealt with slavery - if you can't understand beginning college level sociology, it's not my problem. I just gave you several pages from universities and you still hit me with that "myth" shyte? I read that page. I don't accept that any more than I do many of our historical accounts about Native Americans. I didn't learn everything I know on the Internet. I went to a University. Aacamia is NOT a University. School kids aren't my choice for authoritative information. So read it all you want. I read it. It's not right. Period. Don't care if you can't tell the difference.

          Yes - I have been called a cracker. You find that funny? Would it be similarly as funny if I were to call people niggers? Sorry - I don't find being called a cracker funny or even acceptable. I'm glad you find it fun enough to troll over it, though.

          If you actually want to help end slavery and human trafficking - End Slavery Now has a very good website and you can find information on global organizations there. I don't know where you live and I don't know what is available on the ground in your area. Amnesty International is a good source of finding organizations, too. Frankly - if you can't relate the idea of slavery above and beyond black slaves before and during revolution years, you might have some study to do before you even understand the complete concept.
          Signature

          Sal
          When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
          Beyond the Path

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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            I'm sorry if you could not read the links. They all dealt with slavery - if you can't understand beginning college level sociology, it's not my problem. I just gave you several pages from universities and you still hit me with that "myth" shyte? I read that page. I don't accept that any more than I do many of our historical accounts about Native Americans. I didn't learn everything I know on the Internet. I went to a University. Aacamia is NOT a University. School kids aren't my choice for authoritative information. So read it all you want. I read it. It's not right. Period. Don't care if you can't tell the difference.

            Yes - I have been called a cracker. You find that funny? Would it be similarly as funny if I were to call people niggers? Sorry - I don't find being called a cracker funny or even acceptable. I'm glad you find it fun enough to troll over it, though.

            If you actually want to help end slavery and human trafficking - End Slavery Now has a very good website and you can find information on global organizations there. I don't know where you live and I don't know what is available on the ground in your area. Amnesty International is a good source of finding organizations, too. Frankly - if you can't relate the idea of slavery above and beyond black slaves before and during revolution years, you might have some study to do before you even understand the complete concept.
            Yeah, I know your links had something to do with slavery because it had the word slavery in it,duh. Don't have to go to college to figure that out. That being said, I asked for links with viable information on WHITE slavery.You gave me one and you know what I think about that.

            Your being called a cracker wasn't the funny part. Your portrayal is however. You made it seem like everytime you walk out the door you are being called a cracker or a slave owner.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post




        We are often publicly called "crackers" by many racist blacks and to be called a slave owner is extremely disgusting and extremely racist. I have never owned a slave. Nobody in my family ever, at least as far back as our US history, has ever owned a slave. You call me a slave owner to my face and don't expect anywhere near a pleasant response. I'm sick of it. It's called reverse discrimination and it's gone about as far as it can go without starting race wars. It's high time to end it.


        Boo hoo hoo. Poor you !!

        How ironic that many of the same people earlier in this Thread who were talking about how Americans wanting to take Confederate flag down need to pull up their big boys pants and quit being complaining sissies are the same ones whining about stuff like this !!

        I just feel so sorry for you as I can totally relate. My World is just topsy turvy and I cannot take it anymore being called Cracker and Slave Owner every minute of the day. ( btw, extreme sarcasm)

        Good grief. You need to pull up your big girl panties and quit silly nonsense like this.

        Its very unbecoming.

        You can sit there and deny it all you want and come up with these elaborate situations saying my kin folks never owned slaves, I have never said a harsh word to a person of a different Race blah,blah,blah etc..etc..
        ...but the fact of the matter is people like you and me and Tim and others with White skin have been disgustingly privileged to a certain degree in US our whole lives,

        Some more than others. But I learned as a young boy with very Racists grandparents that I was unfairly and advantageously looked on differently in Public than people with dark skin.

        Thats just fact. Its not opinion and it is not up for debate. Its an absolute !!

        Of course we have to movie forward. Iam totally looking to progress.

        But there is way too many white people who will not concede this fact and never will. Thats where a huge part of the problem lies.

        Case and Point : Right here in this Thread.

        Bottom line: In America whether your great great great great grandparents owned slaves or not or whether you were ugly to a person of a different Race or not the FACT of the matter is as a person of White skin you have continually reaped certain benefits ( subtle and blatant) that people of Black skin have NOT !


        Like I said this is NOT up for debate. This is an Absolute Truth!

        And until we are brutally honest with ourselves and arrive at this particular " starting point" of reference ,we will be stuck in this seemingly never ending conundrum of conflict for a very long time
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          Bottom line: In America whether your great great great great grandparents owned slaves or not or whether you were ugly to a person of a different Race or not the FACT of the matter is as a person of White skin you have continually reaped certain benefits ( subtle and blatant) that people of Black skin have NOT !

          Like I said this is NOT up for debate. This is an Absolute Truth!

          There isn't a word of truth to that at all. I have NEVER been treated better just because I am white. I would like to see those benefits you are talking about. I haven't had a job in 13 years because I am an insurance risk because of neck surgery I had in 2002.


          I have spent the last 4 years, 24 - 7, being the only caregiver for my wife who probably will never walk properly again. We live on $900 a month from her SSI and spend every day wondering if we will be able to eat tomorrow.


          I've been in and out of the military and in and out of prison, for the stupid crime of taking something out of a trash can - which oddly enough was against the law in Mississippi in the 90's.


          I've busted my ass for every cent I have ever made, including 15 years as a Merchant Marine only being home 10 days a month. Right now I'm so broke I cant afford to have lint in my pockets.


          I would honestly love to see some of that better treatment you claim I am guilty of receiving. I've never been given a damn thing. I was taught you earn what you have and you don't take from anyone. Just because you might be guilty of taking favorable treatment does IN NO WAY mean that every white person in this country is guilty as well.




          ~~~~


          Now, as for someone throwing slurs my way just because I live in Alabama. That right there is the root of many of the problems. Just because I grew up in the south doesn't mean a damn thing. I was raised to show respect to ANYONE I meet up until the point they prove themselves unworthy of it.


          Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty. Unless you know me personally, which not a single person on this forum does, you have no right to throw snide remarks about me because of where I was raised and you have no right to ASSUME you know more about me that I do myself.




          Edited to add:


          When I was in school in Mississippi we had only 1 black person in our middle school and he was never treated any different than any one else. Once we got to high school it was roughly 40% black, 50% white, and 10% from Panama and Guatemala. Our school at the time was the last high school left in the country that housed students and we always had several people from other countries in classes with us.


          All that to say this: I have never been treated better for being white and I have never in my life treated anyone as less than me for not being white. You can make accusations all you want, but bottom line you don't know me and have no idea how much of a fool you sound when you try to speak for an entire race and can't even get basic facts right.


          I owe nothing to anyone. It is not my place to make restitution for something that happened before I was born. Part of the problem is that there IS STILL racism happening, but it is NOT NEARLY as rampant as some want to make out. Unless someone comes up with proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, that is the law in this country you know, that I treated anyone, of any race, unfairly then anyone who thinks I own them anything can go pound sand.


          If some of you guys want to assume responsibility for unfair treatment of blacks, that's your right and good for you. However, it is not anyone's right to assume all whites owe blacks for something that happened before we were born.


          THAT IS FACT! It doesn't matter if some don't want to accept it, it's still fact.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

            Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty. Unless you know me personally, which not a single person on this forum does,
            You are correct, to a point. We do know something about you by the words that you have chosen to post. If you can't be judged at some level by the words you use, then you are looking for a free pass.

            They are your words. You should stand by them and if you do, then expect to be judged on their content, not what you want to say about yourself to convince others of the type of person you are, regardless of your own words that you posted with your own conscious volition.

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              They are your words. You should stand by them and if you do, then expect to be judged on their content, not what you want to say about yourself to convince others of the type of person you are, regardless of your own words that you posted with your own conscious volition.
              Cheers. - Frank

              I stand by every word I've posted. I personally haven't treated anyone as less than me because of race, sex, age, religion, or any other facet that anyone would care to bring up.


              I owe nothing to someone I haven't personally wronged. I have always owned up to my faults and my mistakes, look at my last post and think about how many people would volunteer that they spent time in prison. It would be a very small group indeed.


              I have said the same thing in every post, perhaps worded slightly differently but the same thing. I have wronged no one so I owe nothing to anyone. Treat me with respect and you will receive it back. Period.


              Unfortunately there have been a few in this thread who seem to either have never learned to show others respect even when you disagree or just choose to ignore the concept altogether.


              Bear in mind, I haven't said anything that remotely could be considered a personal slur on anyone posting in this thread. All my comments have been about society as a whole, not about anyone personally posting here. However, there have been several who have made personal slights about me at every turn.


              I don't mind arguing a point if I believe it important enough, just ask my wife, we are polar opposites about politics and have very heated discussions all the time. But, we always remain polite and do not ever make any comments that could be considered a personal attack. The same can't be said for some in this discussion.


              Bear in mind, I do consider this a discussion, although it does at times look more like an old west hanging mob. I have taken no offense of any comment that was said as a general comment, but the personal attacks because of where someone lives should have no place here as it has no bearing on anything.


              I find it very telling that 4 years ago when I left here to go take care of my wife that most of the same people in this thread having greatly opposing opinions from my own and have taken great pains to try to cast personal attacks were considered as friends. I guess the last 4 years has really changed some people.


              It's also very telling that 4 years ago, hell.. even 1 year ago, racism wasn't seriously on anyone's radar. It only recently has come up as the fodder for the nightly news cycle. Ironic that stuff like this always takes center stage when our "leaders" in DC have something that they want to get passed quietly and without being noticed by the general public.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                If some of you guys want to assume responsibility for unfair treatment of blacks, that's your right and good for you. However, it is not anyone's right to assume all whites owe blacks for something that happened before we were born.
                Johnny read this and that will tell you who should be assuming responsibility for unfair treatment and who do owe blacks for their treatment before, during, and after the Civil War.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
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                Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
                Getting old ain't for sissy's
                As you are I was, as I am you will be
                You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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              • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                I stand by every word I've posted. I personally haven't treated anyone as less than me because of race, sex, age, religion, or any other facet that anyone would care to bring up.


                I owe nothing to someone I haven't personally wronged. I have always owned up to my faults and my mistakes, look at my last post and think about how many people would volunteer that they spent time in prison. It would be a very small group indeed.


                I have said the same thing in every post, perhaps worded slightly differently but the same thing. I have wronged no one so I owe nothing to anyone. Treat me with respect and you will receive it back. Period.


                Unfortunately there have been a few in this thread who seem to either have never learned to show others respect even when you disagree or just choose to ignore the concept altogether.


                Bear in mind, I haven't said anything that remotely could be considered a personal slur on anyone posting in this thread. All my comments have been about society as a whole, not about anyone personally posting here. However, there have been several who have made personal slights about me at every turn.


                I don't mind arguing a point if I believe it important enough, just ask my wife, we are polar opposites about politics and have very heated discussions all the time. But, we always remain polite and do not ever make any comments that could be considered a personal attack. The same can't be said for some in this discussion.


                Bear in mind, I do consider this a discussion, although it does at times look more like an old west hanging mob. I have taken no offense of any comment that was said as a general comment, but the personal attacks because of where someone lives should have no place here as it has no bearing on anything.


                I find it very telling that 4 years ago when I left here to go take care of my wife that most of the same people in this thread having greatly opposing opinions from my own and have taken great pains to try to cast personal attacks were considered as friends. I guess the last 4 years has really changed some people.


                It's also very telling that 4 years ago, hell.. even 1 year ago, racism wasn't seriously on anyone's radar. It only recently has come up as the fodder for the nightly news cycle. Ironic that stuff like this always takes center stage when our "leaders" in DC have something that they want to get passed quietly and without being noticed by the general public.
                I can't speak about you feeling personally attacked. I can speak about respect. Respect is earned, not owed and it's partially acquired by how others view the way we carry ourselves through life.

                You can't, or at least shouldn't be surprised that many find your views if not down-right reprehensible, at least outside the norm of societal mores. Personally, I was appalled my many of your contentions, and while I certainly wouldn't judge you solely on the basis of being socially and humanistically retarded, I read enough to know that your beliefs are skewed to the point of not having any place in a modern, enlightened society. After reading your words I'm proud to be labeled a progressive.

                I am sorry for your personal struggles, but we all have our own tale of woe. I agree that the four years may have changed some people, here. That's how it's supposed to be. We grow, evolve, postulate new ideas beyond the ones we may have carried for decades and shed our old beliefs as we do so, like dead skin. It might serve you well to reflect on many of the thoughts and beliefs that you have held for decades and so proudly and righteously espouse. Possibly they are in dire need of being relegated to the trash bin of history. None of us are ever too old to continue to grow. Whenever I meet up with someone I haven't seen in years and after having a conversation they mention that I have 'changed,' I'm quite pleased. When is the last time anyone told you that you've changed?

                Cheers. - Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Might be a good idea to not start out a conversation by saying your relatives owned slaves but the slaves were respected. Just saying.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

            There isn't a word of truth to that at all. I have NEVER been treated better just because I am white. I would like to see those benefits you are talking about.
            Actually you didn't have to in order for them to be there.

            Your community or the community where you grew up is likely to have had more tax dollars spent on it

            Your school was likely to have been better.

            Your medical coverage historically for your family was likely to be better because for darn sure some of the best surgeons wouldn't have had a black patient

            Your family and its financial history was likely to have been worse (no matter what it is today) if there were jobs they couldn't get because of their skin color.

            Finally there was the HUGE benefit that growing up you knew the sky was the limit for you, Nothing but you could hold you back (and yeah I do believe that is now true for any race but your family has had that reality for a long time more than my ancestors did so you have had the benefit of seeing that in families and friends.

            So that's just a few and I have no doubt you didn't see them because your eyes are just too glued shut to see them

            I haven't had a job in 13 years because I am an insurance risk because of neck surgery I had in 2002.
            and what would you be today if the last four generations of your family all had neck injuries that held them back from ANY highest paying job for a century or more? Sorry to hear about your insurance risk issue but oblivious why that doesn't make you understand the generational affect of being unable to get a job due to something you can't control. I'd be willing to see and concede I had opportunities from my parents not being economically handicapped by health issues that your children may not have so why can't you apply yourself and see the same for some African American families who didn't have neck injuries but were barred for decades from having certain jobs because the were born with the wrong skin color?

            Plus I am pretty sure if I told you now to suck it up. or tell your children, too bad dad and mom had sever health issues buy I don't give a rip because I didn't make them sick I would be seen as insensitive.
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Your medical coverage historically for your family was likely to be better because for darn sure some of the best surgeons wouldn't have had a black patient
              .......

              Plus I am pretty sure if I told you now to suck it up. or tell your children, too bad dad and mom had sever health issues buy I don't give a rip because I didn't make them sick I would be seen as insensitive.

              Mike, I didn't have medical coverage growing up, my dad was a Merchant Marine as well and although he did make good money the medical premiums were too high, you have to remember this is mid 60's into 70's and medical coverage was spotty at best for anyone working on the water, you couldn't even draw unemployment if you lost a job because the laws regarding offshore work are a lot different.


              The only reason anyone in my family had good doctors was because of my aunt who was a nurse and pretty much ran the surgical ward. If any of us needed surgery she would pick the dr. who would do it, regardless of who was on call. (That is the closest thing to any privilege my family got, and you have to bear in mind it was my mothers sister.)


              Anyway, I was talking to my wife about this thread a few minutes ago and she brought up a point that I had totally forgot to mention last night.


              If you are saying that all whites owe all blacks restitution then its quite interesting to note that no one has brought up the fact that as a race whites treated the American Indian much worse than the blacks. I know of several tribes from the mountain around this town who were totally wiped out of existence by white army soldiers.


              The full blooded Indians from around this area, what few are still left, are still living on reservations and being swept aside just like they were when whites ran roughshod over then entire country.


              Where is the indignation for the Indians? Now, since I am 1/16th Cherokee on my fathers side and 1/16th Crow on my mothers side I will follow your logic... all white men owe Indians restitution.. so pay up.. I want what YOU SAY should be owed to me.




              ~~~~~~


              You can't, or at least shouldn't be surprised that many find your views if not down-right reprehensible, at least outside the norm of societal mores. Personally, I was appalled my many of your contentions, and while I certainly wouldn't judge you solely on the basis of being socially and humanistically retarded, I read enough to know that your beliefs are skewed to the point of not having any place in a modern, enlightened society. After reading your words I'm proud to be labeled a progressive.


              BigFrank, careful there... your walking very near the political line... which is against the rules here .


              btw... you just proved my point about attitudes... just because I have different beliefs than you do in no way gives you leave to make personal derogatory remarks about me.


              and.......


              "modern, enlightened society" enlightened does not even come close to describing saying that the black man is still owed restitution from every white person alive. That's not enlightened.. that's living in a dream world.


              Explain to me how the white man is holding the black man down currently... how can that be when we have a black POTUS who is on his second term? How can you have a black man elected by black and white alike into the most powerful position in the world and still say blacks are being held back?
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              • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post


                Explain to me how the white man is holding the black man down currently... how can that be when we have a black POTUS who is on his second term? How can you have a black man elected by black and white alike into the most powerful position in the world and still say blacks are being held back?
                Just by stating that paragraph above says you don't have a clue about black people at all.

                Where in this whole thread did anyone mention white owing blacks. I think you brought that up so you could argue it yourself. It's almost as if you feel guilty(and I am not saying you should)and feel guilty for feeling guilty.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                How can you have a black man elected by black and white alike into the most powerful position in the world and still say blacks are being held back?
                It was the perfect storm. I can't go into detail although I wish I could. Your question assumes the two situations are mutually exclusive. They aren't.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Nope in this thread the root of that problem is you not talking responsibility for your own words. Alabama came up because YOU brought up against all reality that the south was the most accepting.

              You must be reading a different thread than I am because I DID NOT bring up
              Alabama first. The post right before my first post is the one that brought up that state, as well as others, including 2 other states I have lived in.



              http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...l#post10150022
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                  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
                    Couldn't find the links huh?
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    I can find a lot of unbiased material on black owning slaves but so far no info on blacks owning white slaves. Black Slave Owners: Did They Exist? - The Root
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Heysal,
    WELL SAID! I for one have ENOUGH of a problem when I DO do something wrong, and have to take the blame and/or fix it. I don't have the time to worry about what maybe 1/3 of the world does, let alone all the others that may be lumped in with me do to bad bookkeeping, or it suiting them.

    But I have seen NOTHING to indicate that any of my relatives even lived in an area where it was legal to own slaves, or were in any group, etc... And I never have been.

    As for that flag? It doesn't affectme one way or another. I never even held such a flag, or even a picture of one. Still, I liked dukes of hazard, and some other shows, and MOST people, disregarding the blacks that have been even INSTRUCTED to indicate otherwise, see the flag as mostly a CULTURE issue. I saw a poll recently that indicated that like 60% overall said it was cultural. They try to mitigate that by saying that college educated only have about 51% indicating it is cultural, but as they delve deeper into such demographics, they often have failures like excluded results, a small sample, or bad questions, so I would disregard it anyway.


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    You would disregard that part and only that part. It doesn't fit your agenda.
    On another note I'm guessing that we all agree that slavery is bad, right? What I don't understand is why some of you or looking under ever nook and cranny to find white slaves being owned by blacks. Will that some how lessen the horrificness of black slavery. Will it make you feel better about our role in slavery.

    I haven't seen anything about blacks own whites as slaves but it must exist because some of you seem so passionate about it. So I am signing out to do some real research in my fathers library. I hope I find what you are looking so desperately for.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Will that some how lessen the horrificness of black slavery. Will it make you feel better about our role in slavery.
      Based on previous discussions of which there are many ...yes they think so. they also like to feign amnesia as if Slavery is the whole issue.

      Undoubtedly US slave owners were not the ones to invent slavery. Many nations and cultures have kept slaves but here's the thing. If an Irish person became free then he was free. His status was not determined by skin color but situation. Slavery for the most part was based on economics or military conquest. People would sell themselves into slavery to pay off debts or to survive or because the were taken prisoners of war.

      US slavery was somewhat Unique. No war was declared and the slaves didn't sell themselves into it. Instead a market was set up by plantation owners to traffic in stolen humans. Neither could you ever be free based on your skin color in the south and unlike most slavery even when you were free you still were not free. An Irshman getting out of slavery would be free. Go where he like , sit on a bus where he like but for decades after, allegedly, slavery ended ....it didn't - an ethnicity considered technically free was still classed as inferior human beings. Barred form certain opportunities, forced into geographic zones, limited to certain jobs and infrastructure.

      That didn't end hundreds of years ago as some here like to pretend - it lasted up to around 50 years ago in FULL force and why we had to have a civil rights movement. We are not even talking in 2015 of a time where all the people who use to operate with discrimination pre civil rights movement are even dead (and a lot of the same discrimination just went underground).

      Some of the people in this threads Uncle's, Dad's, Granpa's, Aunt's and mom's were involved in the discrimination not some long ago distant relatives (and at least a few are present day racists -one for DARN SURE ). Doesn't mean they should automatically take responsibility but you do know that when someone says

      Get over it, yeah you were held back, couldn't get decent jobs for generation after generation but you should suck it up and forget about it in a few decades - they don't have darn clue what they are talking about and are only waxing off because they never were affected and frankly because they don't give a damn about their fellow man that was.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        The idea I am ashamed of my race is ridiculous, ludicrous and just dumb. I'm Irish American and proud of it. Good grief.

        Just like Thom has a passion for dirt, I have a passion for inequality because of racism, sexism, or religious persecution. Plus I love history. I've always been this way since I was a kid. I just hate to see history being rewritten or ignored. Sal, you are one of the worst at getting history wrong. Over and over. :/

        Your little rant here is not unexpected. Smh.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Sal, you are one of the worst at getting history wrong. Over and over. :/

          Your little rant here is not unexpected. Smh.
          based on past discussions not unexpected in the least. However I think you have it wrong, She might have one thing down about history.

          Its pretty historical for some people to accuse others of hating themselves or ashamed of their skin color because they are sensitive to racial issues. Theres a long long history of that. Thank God for many people who filed that ugly accusation in the waste basket and still crossed racial lines.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post


      I haven't seen anything about blacks own whites as slaves but it must exist because some of you seem so passionate about it. So I am signing out to do some real research in my fathers library. I hope I find what you are looking so desperately for.
      Here's an article about white slaves. It has stories about how whites got trapped in the slave system in various ways because they were sold as mulattos. After all, back then there was the one drop rule and a slave could be auction even if they were 1/16, 1/32 or I even read 1/64 black.

      https://hsp.org/blogs/hidden-histories/white-slavery-in-the-ante-bellum-south-and-civil-war-era-a-little-known-phenomenon
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    BTW -
    Slavery was not an American invention. It was a universal institution and at the time the US was being founded, it existed everywhere on the globe as an accepted institution.

    Islamic societies were the main slave traders, buying between 12 and 17 million African slaves who were caught and sold by other tribes. America received only 3% of these slaves. Most slaves were shipped to other countries. American trade was very limited because so few regions accepted it at all.

    The first slaves were Irish and brought to the US before the revolution. Irish were considered "indentured servants" even though their servitude, through many tricks and laws, was infrequently limited to 7 years and included sale of humans, beating, and murdering -- all of which has been swept under the carpets of our halls of history because of the Christian Church's part in allowing the slavery of other Christians. It was also Christians that stopped and banned the practice of enslaving anyone who was a Christian at the time of their enslavement, virtually ending Irish enslavement by the time England also banned it - around 1839, in the UK.

    The importation of slaves into the US was actually stopped in 1808 - only 32 years after our independence. By 89 years after our independence, we abolished slavery. Before the complete abolishment, many regions had already banned slavery. Only 5% or fewer of white Americans have any generational (family history) guilt of slavery. Yet 364,000 men died during the Civil war in the fight against anyone's right to own another human.

    Consider this when we hear people raging about "reparations":
    Of course, those who seek reparations would also cite the devastating impact of Western colonialism in stunting African progress, but the United States played virtually no role in the colonization of the continent. The British, French, Italians, Portuguese, Germans and others all established brutal colonial rule in Africa; tiny Belgium became a particularly oppressive and bloodthirsty colonial power in the Congo. The United States, on the other hand, sponsored only one long-term venture on the African continent: the colony of Liberia, an independent nation set up as a haven for liberated American slaves who wanted to go "home." The fact that so few availed themselves of the opportunity, or heeded the back-to-African exhortations of turn- of-the-century Black Nationalist Marcus Garvey, reflects the reality that descendants of slaves understood they were better off remaining in the United States, for all its faults.
    So while we are all in here arguing over the little points about slavery and who did what - we schould, especially on this 4th of July -- - celebrate the fact that we were one of the first countries on the globe, and a very young and new country at the time -- to BAN the institution.
    HAPPY 4th -- to all humans, everywhere!
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Hear George Takei use a racial slur that TYT and some agree with(thought they say they are not racist)


    And Clarence Thomas, who is black and HAS had family that were slaves, and knows about it, did NOT say being a slave was dignified. He said that they did NOT lose their dignity by being slaves. I know it is a subtle concept, but it is true.

    As for the, IRONICALLY BY HIS OWN PARTY, concentration of asians in WWII, and the theft if property, done by/through that SAME party? It PALES in contrast to slavery, which that party OPENLY SUPPORTED AND DEMANDED. Asians were rarely slaves in the US, and THAT was only for a short time, and I don't believe it was on the same level.

    BTW I have an aunt and cousins that are Japanese. Even the computer I am using now was built by a japanese company. I never treated Japanese people, or any asians, differently from whites.

    Clarence Thomas' dissent:

    "Human dignity has long been understood in this country to be innate. When the Framers proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence that 'all men are created equal' and 'endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,' they referred to a vision of mankind in which all humans are created in the image of God and therefore of inherent worth. That vision is the foundation upon which this Nation was built.

    "The corollary of that principle is that human dignity cannot be taken away by the government. Slaves did not lose their dignity (any more than they lost their humanity) because the government allowed them to be enslaved. Those held in internment camps did not lose their dignity because the government confined them. And those denied governmental benefits certainly do not lose their dignity because the government denies them those benefits. The government cannot bestow dignity, and it cannot take it away."
    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      BTW I have an aunt and cousins that are Japanese. Even the computer I am using now was built by a japanese company. .
      LOL....even?


      I generally skip reading the one person who is certainly 100% racist on this board (I think we can add a couple more after this thread) but every now and again I catch snippets of the wonderful expanse of his silliness. listing I use computers made by Japanese as proof one is not racist against Japanese is like claiming no racist existed because they wore shirts made with cotton picked by Slaves.

      We can all go home now.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        LOL....even?


        I generally skip reading the one person who is certainly 100% racist on this board (I think we can add a couple more after this thread) but every now and again I catch snippets of the wonderful expanse of his silliness. listing I use computers made by Japanese as proof one is not racist against Japanese is like claiming no racist existed because they wore shirts made with cotton picked by Slaves.

        We can all go home now.
        GIVE ME A BREAK! So NOW you are saying EVERYONE, INCLUDING ALL BLACKS BY THE WAY, is a racist because they wear something that once may have been made by a racist!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    Enough already. rofl...


    Honestly, this is a no win discussion that was loaded from the very beginning. Neither side is actually considering the other and neither side is going to convince anyone to change their mind.


    And it is really sad that there are so many people falling all over themselves to race bait, on both sides of the isle, instead of rising above the rumbling and actually having an honest discourse without any mudslinging.


    However, this is the Warrior forum and the Off Topic section so I guess I'm the stupid one here for expecting anything remotely resembling actual debate of merit instead of page after page of the same crap.


    Time for me to get some sleep... I hope everyone had an enjoyable 4th yesterday and with that I'm headed off to bed.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      actually having an honest discourse
      You go first. We've been waiting for you to start.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Let me say this before I get back to finish up some work and hit the sack

    I realize part of the problem is some of you spout off because you know few African Americans. Possibly you turn on the TV and you heard some academic talking about financial restitution for slavery civil right violations yada yada yada and at least some of you got it in your little heads that the entire black community is hankering for your George Washingtons.

    I know no one in my family , my friends, my friends family, my church or any church in my community that even talks about restitution. the average middle class African American male is too proud of where he has worked himself to want your money based on your white skin and his black complexion even if you offered it (and he would take it as a rank insult to be offered it) . I wont say restitution was never a good idea but it s waaaay too late for that now in my opinion (and most African Americans I know)

    So you can get out of your little heads that we are all sitting down each night wondering how we can get the white man's money for how he did us wrong, What we talk about at our dinner tables is

    how to respond to cops to limit the possibility of getting shot
    not being considered suspicious driving anywhere in our country
    how we can avoid getting murdered in church
    not having our sons profiled.

    We would like to live ANYWHERE in our country without for sale signs going up a few months after or getting looks from the new neighbors or icy look aways (and yes all that STILL happens) and yeah we would like to finding away to come up with a solution for the less fortunate in inner cities that were created by herding everyone into certain areas based on skin color decades ago

    but thats about it. Nothing about wanting your money. IF you are worried about money you can check a few of our successful businessmen and we can see if we can give you a loan. Don't be too proud to ask.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Ok then, where did he say(or anyone else say) that you or white people owe black people anything. Your links in your other post don't point to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Ok then, where did he say(or anyone else say) that you or white people owe black people anything. Your links in your other post don't point to it.
      Of course they don't. He points to Gordon saying it and when you go to the link he never does. He does the same thing to discrat and Tim and then he even has the nerve to link to my post as if I said it when I have NEVER EVER made such a claim

      Good night he even links to Seasoned and we sure know he didn't do it....lol

      Then after he pretty much lies on each one of these member he gets upset that I checked the links and found out that NONE OF them said any such thing.
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