The next big "it's not fair!!!" moment..

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...will be when Amazon cracks down to get rid of super short ebooks. Amazon is trying to promote them as "shorties" but I don't think it's working well. Ar article is not a book - a scene is not a story.

Just read yet another thread about a kindle book where the OP states

The book is about 4,000 words
WF members are offering all sorts of advice and I'm the only one saying "4000 words is a BOOK???".

Of course, it's in the "erotica" niche. I'd guess from the length it's a story of premature ejaculation...but then, could just be people in a rush.... Clearly this is a "scene" rather than a "book".

Of course, threads like that give a few members who are visible for quantity of one liners...a chance to say

You can try Amazon to sell your kindle.
Wow - what an illuminating suggestion!

This place is getting downright embarrassing....
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I've seen many "Kindle WSOs" that advise.... Publish a book in 24hrs on Amazon Kindle and make gazillions. Amazon should crack down on garbage articles being passed off as books. It makes their "book selection" look tawdry.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I've seen many "Kindle WSOs" that advise.... Publish a book in 24hrs on Amazon Kindle and make gazillions. Amazon should crack down on garbage articles being passed off as books. It makes their "book selection" look tawdry.
      I agree on almost everything. I hear of a colleague writing a book, and I see on Kindle that it's 40 pages. Forty Kindle pages is about the same as twenty printed pages.

      The only time I think this is a good value, is when it's clearly in the description. There are some highly specialized subjects that can be covered in just a few pages. But I can't see selling these for more than 99 cents.

      And in the business category, most really short books are full of fluff, and are purely promotional. But a short book, light on real content only promotes one thing...that you rip off your readers.

      And if a WSO is telling you to go the "cheap short book route", I promise you...they are making their money on the WSO.....not their books.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Are you saying Amazon accepts Kindle books?

    Lol, this place is awesome.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Yup - enlightening, isn't it?

      The guy that posted that one liner has posted so many similar comments I've wondered what a real life conversation with him might be like....I think it could be viral stuff on YouTube....just sayin'....
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    4000 words is probably a decent and substantial size, IF IT IS A KIDS BOOK, like SEE SPOT RUN! Let's see, 4000 words is like 24000 characters or, for an old fashioned 80*60 standard, about 5 pages! But YOU KNOW, see spot run has a lot of pictures! So it is like 40*5 or about 120 pages!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      What the heck?

      I write articles with more than 4000 words.

      And the ship sinks down into the water a few more feet.


      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        This is one of the main reasons I don't waste my money on Kindle books. Most legitimate publishing companies have relatively high standards for what they will even consider publishing. But Kindle? Anybody can self-publish. And the books tend to be so short I'd hardly consider them books at all. 4000 words is nothing more than a long article.

        Too many Kindle writers took some WF or other online Kindle course, many of which recommend swapping feedback with other Kindle authors. Others get their friends or blog followers to boost their feedback ratings. So I take the feedback on most Kindle-only "books" with a huge grain of salt. I'm sure there are a few gems here and there, but I suspect they're the exception by far.

        The only exception I'll make is if the Kindle book is also available in paperback or hardback; to me, that gives it much more credibility. I think the Kindle market overall, however, has led to a ton of very low quality content being passed off as "published" books. It gives people a chance to boast, "Hey, I've written and published a book!".
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        • Trad and indie publishing have been on a collision course for some years now, and the rise of ebooks has kept some of the worst indie in the ring.

          Amazon ebooks (and their counterparts) are easy as posting mugshots of your kittens to Facebook, hence the saturation of trash.

          But it will all settle down.

          Years back, everyone had a blog, but now most of the blogs are more pro, and all the old bloggers hang out on social media.

          4000 word ebooks await a similar fate.
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

            Trad and indie publishing have been on a collision course for some years now, and the rise of ebooks has kept some of the worst indie in the ring.

            Amazon ebooks (and their counterparts) are easy as posting mugshots of your kittens to Facebook, hence the saturation of trash.

            But it will all settle down.

            Years back, everyone had a blog, but now most of the blogs are more pro, and all the old bloggers hang out on social media.

            4000 word ebooks await a similar fate.
            Princess, I think this is the first comment of yours on WF that I've read and not had the thoughts "WTF is she talking about" and "I'll have what she's having" about at least one line. Are you feeling ok?

            Not meant as a diss...Having to think your way through someone's reply is some of the best fun left around this joint.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          The only exception I'll make is if the Kindle book is also available in paperback or hardback; to me, that gives it much more credibility.
          That right there, exactly!

          And if it is a friend of mine who wrote the book. I'll buy it then as well.


          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          The only exception I'll make is if the Kindle book is also available in paperback or hardback; to me, that gives it much more credibility.
          I thought I was the only one that considered this. Yeah, when I look at books, I'll see if it's available in paperback. I don't mind if it's self publish. There is some good self published material out there. But if it has bad reviews, or isn't available in print, I'll pass.

          The only time I buy kindle books (that aren't also available in paperback) is when I review a book, as a favor to the author.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            4000 word ebooks await a similar fate.
            I'd say - the sooner, the better!
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        • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          The only exception I'll make is if the Kindle book is also available in paperback or hardback; to me, that gives it much more credibility.
          Doesn't that theory fly out the door with Amazon's CreateSpace On Demand Publishing?

          It only takes a little more time to format it to offer it as a "real" book.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cali16
            Originally Posted by Barry Unruh View Post

            Doesn't that theory fly out the door with Amazon's CreateSpace On Demand Publishing?

            It only takes a little more time to format it to offer it as a "real" book.
            Hadn't thought about that (as I'm not familiar with how that works...).

            Guess I'll have to be even more discriminating in the future and check to see which company published the book.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Kay, get your point and agree. Remember the days when Allen would write one short paragraph and it was "The Road To Riches" for many. Miss those days. In many ways, I suppose it is not about the length, but more about the quality... and the "who" of it all.

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Understand and agree with the point. But I think we need to be clear about words versus pages (in the other thread you referred to pages). A 60 page 8.5x11 work turns into let's say 110 or so "real" book pages if it goes to a standard 8.5 x 5.5.

    Also keep in mind that many famous and credible authors have shorter books.

    So what does everyone consider enough words for a "real" book?

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I've got "ebooks" that are only around 40 pages. It depends on what the format is on what they'd be called, but it's always been my understanding that most ebooks are shorter than hard books the same way novellas are shorter than novels. You would not buy a novella expecting a full read.

    However - 4,000 words is a report, not a book even in "e" speak.

    My ebook on Amazon is called a short read, and I think that's appropriate. It's not really a guide or report because of the story - it's not really a story because of the guide in it. Short read seems appropriate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I read a book about a dog last week - it was 40+ pages and I enjoyed the read. I have other Kindle books (non-fiction) that are 25-50 pages. I have none that are less than 20 pages.

      I've purchased "how to" or specialty non-fiction books that were 30 pages or more and been happy (paid no more than $2 for any of them) with those.

      BUT - most of the time I want a big story, a complex plot, well drawn characters. Most of the books on my Kindle are 350-850 PAGES (I looked),

      4000 words is 13-16 pages according to the Amazon estimate of 250-300 words per page. I think for Kindle that estimate is low as I think pages I read are 350-400 in length but it depends on what size font you use.

      There are some stories that FIT into a few pages....but mostly what I see from people writing "shorts" is the wish to toss out something that will "make money". I've never understood why people would buy them...but...

      ... talking to a neighbor yesterday about this topic he pointed out "some people may want short erotica for 'practical' reasons"...at which point I said "ewww" and realized I know nothing about that genre...and don't want to know more.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        ... talking to a neighbor yesterday about this topic he pointed out "some people may want short erotica for 'practical' reasons"...at which point I said "ewww" and realized I know nothing about that genre...and don't want to know more.
        Then you probably don't want to know that romance and erotica represent a major slice of Amazon sales. Likewise for audiobooks on Amazon's Audible.com. This translates into a lot of opportunities for aspiring voice actors like myself and others who are willing to narrate such material.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

          Then you probably don't want to know that romance and erotica represent a major slice of Amazon sales.
          In the author's forum, it was mentioned that Sherlock Holmes was now in the public domain. I mentioned that I might give the character a shot as a writer.

          We discussed it on the writers forum. And I was told that there is a huge market for Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson....porn.

          It never occurred to me that this even existed.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            It never occurred to me that this even existed.
            Claude, let me introduce you to Rule 34.

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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

              Claude, let me introduce you to ]
              David; Decades ago, I was at a book store, that had an Adult section. I decided to look at a few of the magazines. What amazed me was the variety of types of magazines. Real? naked pregnant women having sex? Really?

              And these were magazines. That means that tens of thousands of people, every month, bought these magazines. We're a funny species.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                What amazed me was the variety of types of magazines. Real?... And these were magazines. That means that tens of thousands of people, every month, bought these magazines.
                Absolutely! As I continue to record and/or buy rights to these audiobooks, I see how the successful authors find subniches of subniches, and then they Don't. Let. Go. For example, one author in my portfolio churns out heterosexual romances involving larger people on motorcycles. Now personally, I doubt I could write one complete book with this particular combination of niches, much less a whole series, but clearly, the formula works; who am I to judge?

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                ...naked pregnant women having sex? Really?
                I am trying very hard to keep my response here family-friendly. Let's just say that, for some people, desire increases during certain portions of pregnancy. Also, as silly as it may sound, there's a lot of merit to the point that one can't get (more) pregnant while one is already pregnant, and that, in turn, removes some barriers, (both emotional and physical).
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                • Profile picture of the author Shana Walters
                  I think the main issue is that most people translate the word book in their heads with the word novel.
                  And they both definitely don't mean the same thing.
                  Keep in mind that not all books have words on the pages until you put them there.
                  But it is still called a book even with no words in it.
                  We all used them went we went school.
                  Or at least I did.
                  I don't know what the kids are using these days in schools.
                  I am referring of course to exercise books just in case no one gets what the hell I'm talking about.
                  So a 4, 000 word short story can still be called a book.
                  But it sure as hell is not a novel.
                  Oh I forget journal and diaries are also books with no words on the pages until you put them there.

                  Best Regards,
                  Shana Jahsinta Walters.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            In the author's forum, it was mentioned that Sherlock Holmes was now in the public domain.
            And four months after we have this discussion, I find myself getting paid by a client to record A Study in Scarlet by Arthur Conan Doyle.

            Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

            Then you probably don't want to know that romance and erotica represent a major slice of Amazon sales. Likewise for audiobooks on Amazon's Audible.com. This translates into a lot of opportunities for aspiring voice actors like myself and others who are willing to narrate such material.
            As long as Shana resurrected this thread, I'll put this out here: My producer and I still need female voice talent that's willing to record for this genre. (Sorry, guys, but at this point, we do have enough males.)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Got you. I thought you were lumping nonfiction and fiction together in your earlier comments.

        I think there are a lot of nonfiction works that can be done and done well in 100 pages or less.

        The crap I see, though, are things like "Everything you ever wanted to know about Celiac Disease" or "Beating Diabetes" in 15 Kindle pages. That just ain't going to happen in 15 pages - it's a scam.

        Mark

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I read a book about a dog last week - it was 40+ pages and I enjoyed the read. I have other Kindle books (non-fiction) that are 25-50 pages. I have none that are less than 20 pages.

        I've purchased "how to" or specialty non-fiction books that were 30 pages or more and been happy (paid no more than $2 for any of them) with those.

        BUT - most of the time I want a big story, a complex plot, well drawn characters. Most of the books on my Kindle are 350-850 PAGES (I looked),

        4000 words is 13-16 pages according to the Amazon estimate of 250-300 words per page. I think for Kindle that estimate is low as I think pages I read are 350-400 in length but it depends on what size font you use.

        There are some stories that FIT into a few pages....but mostly what I see from people writing "shorts" is the wish to toss out something that will "make money". I've never understood why people would buy them...but...

        ... talking to a neighbor yesterday about this topic he pointed out "some people may want short erotica for 'practical' reasons"...at which point I said "ewww" and realized I know nothing about that genre...and don't want to know more.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

          Got you. I thought you were lumping nonfiction and fiction together in your earlier comments.

          I think there are a lot of nonfiction works that can be done and done well in 100 pages or less.

          The crap I see, though, are things like "Everything you ever wanted to know about Celiac Disease" or "Beating Diabetes" in 15 Kindle pages. That just ain't going to happen in 15 pages - it's a scam.

          Mark
          Right? I had a guy ask me once to review his "ebook" on "health". It was around 10 pages about blueberries. He seemed to think they were the ultimate miracle cure for everything. It was the worst read I think I ever read other than threads in here where a few of the guys start talking raunch - and that's bad. LOL.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I write about 5,000 words a day, 4-5 days a week, so I guess that means I should be publishing one book a day! lol

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Last night I got a sales email selling a guide to creating Adult Coloring E-Books. Apparently they make up an alarming percentage of the top ten E-Books selling on Amazon. A new trend or fad that will just be popular for a while?
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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Last night I got a sales email selling a guide to creating Adult Coloring E-Books. Apparently they make up an alarming percentage of the top ten E-Books selling on Amazon. A new trend or fad that will just be popular for a while?
        My guess is that it's a fad. But in the mean time, boy, are they hard to narrate!
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    • Profile picture of the author Shana Walters
      Originally Posted by michaelswengel View Post

      I just watched two nights ago .
      I hardly remember anything from that movie.
      Click the link above if any of you are interesting in watching this guy review the movie.
      His movies reviews are so funny.

      Best Regards,
      Shana Jahsinta Walters.

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      • Profile picture of the author @tjr
        Originally Posted by Shana Walters View Post


        His movies reviews are so funny.

        In true cinemasins fashion:

        Pink text. *Ding*

        Resurrecting a dead thread. *Ding*
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        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Princess, I think this is the first comment of yours on WF that I've read and not had the thoughts "WTF is she talking about" and "I'll have what she's having" about at least one line. Are you feeling ok?

          Not meant as a diss...Having to think your way through someone's reply is some of the best fun left around this joint.
          I think she's been taking some how to speak American style classes in the land of Dialectica.

          The book is about 4,000 words
          That's just a long blog post. Or a forum post by a select few here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Keep in mind that not all books have words on the pages until you put them there.
            I'm not even sure how to respond to that comment.

            Then again, 2 weeks ago I was given a copy of a "book" - nicely bound with a highly artistic dust jacket on the printed cover. There were 250 pages in that physical book....and all of them were blank. Seriously, they were blank.

            The book was "published" by a Jewish university professor (retired) trying to "make a point" about thinking 'differently' about Christianity. His comment to me was "I wanted to present the concept of individual thought".

            Problem was, he asked me what my opinion was and I told him "sounds like you have nothing to say on the matter but didn't let that get in your way". He didn't think I was sufficiently impressed. Very nice man - but the academia bug got to him.

            Note: Just realized when I packed to come home, I left the book in Atlanta. Oh dear, shucky darn!
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            • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Note: Just realized when I packed to come home, I left the book in Atlanta. Oh dear, shucky darn!
              Now you'll never find out how the book ends!!
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            • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I'm not even sure how to respond to that comment.

              Then again, 2 weeks ago I was given a copy of a "book" - nicely bound with a highly artistic dust jacket on the printed cover. There were 250 pages in that physical book....and all of them were blank. Seriously, they were blank.

              The book was "published" by a Jewish university professor (retired) trying to "make a point" about thinking 'differently' about Christianity. His comment to me was "I wanted to present the concept of individual thought".

              Problem was, he asked me what my opinion was and I told him "sounds like you have nothing to say on the matter but didn't let that get in your way". He didn't think I was sufficiently impressed. Very nice man - but the academia bug got to him.

              Note: Just realized when I packed to come home, I left the book in Atlanta. Oh dear, shucky darn!
              Might have made a good scrap book.
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            • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Then again, 2 weeks ago I was given a copy of a "book" - nicely bound with a highly artistic dust jacket on the printed cover. There were 250 pages in that physical book....and all of them were blank. Seriously, they were blank.

              The book was "published" by a Jewish university professor (retired) trying to "make a point" about thinking 'differently' about Christianity. His comment to me was "I wanted to present the concept of individual thought".
              He's almost 30 years behind using a blank book to teach what can't be taught.

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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I'm not even sure how to respond to that comment.

              Then again, 2 weeks ago I was given a copy of a "book" - nicely bound with a highly artistic dust jacket on the printed cover. There were 250 pages in that physical book....and all of them were blank. Seriously, they were blank.

              The book was "published" by a Jewish university professor (retired) trying to "make a point" about thinking 'differently' about Christianity. His comment to me was "I wanted to present the concept of individual thought".

              Problem was, he asked me what my opinion was and I told him "sounds like you have nothing to say on the matter but didn't let that get in your way". He didn't think I was sufficiently impressed. Very nice man - but the academia bug got to him.

              Note: Just realized when I packed to come home, I left the book in Atlanta. Oh dear, shucky darn!
              Titled "The Entire Wit and Wisdom of Claude".
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                Titled "The Entire Wit and Wisdom of Claude".
                That's not true. My book, The Entire Wit and Wisdom of Claude, consists of 520 blank pages.
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                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  That's not true. My book, The Entire Wit and Wisdom of Claude, consists of 520 blank pages.
                  The reviews are in.......














                  Dan Riffle
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    He's almost 30 years behind using a blank book to teach what can't be taught.
                    Exactly right - I've seen it done a few times but seldom successfully. Often by the academic types who get tangled up in their own thoughts and can't get out.

                    Every one of those 'non-writers' thinks he's done something new and unique...oh well, if it keeps them happy and out of the way....
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