Mizzo Students Outraged and Offended by Thomas Jefferson Statue and Want it Removed

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PC gone rabid and out of control ? Or do they have a point ?
Students at University of Missouri Want 'Offensive' Statue of Thomas Jefferson Removed
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    Students have just gone over the top with their "sensitivity." I'd bitch slap them all and show them what a microagression really is.
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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Students have just gone over the top with their "sensitivity."
      Declining Student Resilience: A Serious Problem for Colleges
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        I know. I've read a lot lately about the whole microaggression thing and I think it is absurd. I also think that it's absurd for college administration to legitimize and acknowledge it.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          They have a point. Jefferson was a cruel slave owner, hypocrite and racist.
          So was the democrat party up to at least the 60's. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union and caused the civil war and it was democrats that brought us Jim Crow laws.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            So was the democrat party up to at least the 60's. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union and caused the civil war and it was democrats that brought us Jim Crow laws.
            Yes. The Democrats and Republicans starting switching platforms beginning with Teddy Roosevelt though LBJ. In Lincoln's day, the Republicans were liberals and the Democrats were conservatives.


            Times have changed. It's the ideology that's the issue, not the label you put on it.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Yes. The Democrats and Republicans starting switching platforms beginning with Teddy Roosevelt though LBJ. In Lincoln's day, the Republicans were liberals and the Democrats were conservatives.


              Times have changed. It's the ideology that's the issue, not the label you put on it.
              So are you implying that conservatives are racists and liberals aren't?
              My point was that times have changed. If you're going to be offended by a man that lived over 200 years ago then you should also be offended by the party he started.
              A better idea would be to use both examples as history lessons and learn from the mistakes made. Instead of being offended and removing them from history be thankful that we have moved forward and are still moving forward. Being offended by Jefferson or his party is not moving forward but moving backwards.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                So are you implying that conservatives are racists and liberals aren't?
                My point was that times have changed. If you're going to be offended by a man that lived over 200 years ago then you should also be offended by the party he started.
                A better idea would be to use both examples as history lessons and learn from the mistakes made. Instead of being offended and removing them from history be thankful that we have moved forward and are still moving forward. Being offended by Jefferson or his party is not moving forward but moving backwards.
                Are you implying that I'm offended?


                Are you offended by the truth and historical fact that the platforms changed?


                You're the one that implied that that democrats where racists when you replied to Tim's post by saying:


                So was the democrat party up to at least the 60's. It was Southern Democrats that seceded from the Union and caused the civil war and it was democrats that brought us Jim Crow laws.

                It takes stones to question my comment while blatantly stating Democrats were racist yourself. I don't need to ask if that's what you meant, you stated it point blank. But just to play along, are you saying all Southern Democrats were racist? No need to answer, you already did.


                On the other hand, I never implied a thing. You seem to have inferred it. I merely stated a fact. Deal with it.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  Are you implying that I'm offended?


                  Are you offended by the truth and historical fact that the platforms changed?


                  You're the one that implied that that democrats where racists when you replied to Tim's post by saying:





                  It takes stones to question my comment while blatantly stating Democrats were racist yourself. I don't need to ask if that's what you meant, you stated it point blank. But just to play along, are you saying all Southern Democrats were racist? No need to answer, you already did.


                  On the other hand, I never implied a thing. You seem to have inferred it. I merely stated a fact. Deal with it.
                  I'm not implying you're offended. The O.P. was about some students being offended.If you took that as a personal attack then that's on you.
                  My comment was about if you're going to be offended by a person that lived 200 years ago then it makes sense to be offended by a party he started that continued slavery and racism into the 60's.
                  Personally I don't think people should be offended by any of it since it was the past and instead should use the history to learn about it and not repeat it.
                  As for myself I don't get offended and I certainly don't get offended by history. Whatever Jefferson felt about slaves is in the past and as a country we've moved on.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Geedan007
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    I'm not implying you're offended. The O.P. was about some students being offended.If you took that as a personal attack then that's on you.
                    My comment was about if you're going to be offended by a person that lived 200 years ago then it makes sense to be offended by a party he started that continued slavery and racism into the 60's.
                    Personally I don't think people should be offended by any of it since it was the past and instead should use the history to learn about it and not repeat it.
                    As for myself I don't get offended and I certainly don't get offended by history.[B] Whatever Jefferson felt about slaves is in the past and as a country we've moved on.[/
                    B]
                    There are abundance of research and empirical studies that would disagree with that notion.
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                    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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                      Originally Posted by Geedan007 View Post

                      There are abundance of research and empirical studies that would disagree with that notion.

                      Do you find that offensive?
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                So are you implying that conservatives are racists and liberals aren't?
                .
                Thom in all honesty from my own experience on the whole I would say YES racism is absolutely more predominant in the Conservative party.!!
                And this is coming from a person who is straight down the middle .I have no party affiliations. This is just from the people I have run into my Life.

                Of course their are Racists everywhere. Democrats, Republicans, independents, Europeans, etc..etc..

                But if you wanted to strictly compare the two groups it overwhelmingly tilts toward the right wing.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                  Thom in all honesty from my own experience on the whole I would say YES racism is absolutely more predominant in the Conservative party.!!
                  And this is coming from a person who is straight down the middle .I have no party affiliations. This is just from the people I have run into my Life.

                  Of course their are Racists everywhere. Democrats, Republicans, independents, Europeans, etc..etc..

                  But if you wanted to strictly compare the two groups it overwhelmingly tilts toward the right wing.
                  I don't see either party as being predominately racist.
                  I do agree that on an individual basis most appear to have conservative leanings. I don't think either party or any party as far as the major political parties go are racist though at least not today. No doubt some of the politicians are, but again that's individuals.
                  When I read something like this with taking the Jefferson statue down I see it more as a tactic to divide people instead of bring people together. I've always like reading this quote by MLK as I think it applies to what is going on and is kind of lost on these students and many others today.
                  "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love...Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding."
                  I think that last line can be applied to a lot of things including politics.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
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                    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                      fa·ce·tious

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                      treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
                      synonyms: flippant, flip, glib, frivolous, tongue-in-cheek, ironic, sardonic, joking, jokey, jocular, playful, sportive, teasing, mischievous; More
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                    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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                      Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                      "Honor and respect should only be shown to those individuals with impeccable character."

                      -- All Sharpton
                      That's an oxymoron plus Sharpton is a moron, so that's two morons.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I know. I've read a lot lately about the whole microaggression thing and I think it is absurd. I also think that it's absurd for college administration to legitimize and acknowledge it.

          Here are a few Micros on a college campus...

          http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/raci...sis#.ppwKN4qwb
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I know. I've read a lot lately about the whole microaggression thing and I think it is absurd. I also think that it's absurd for college administration to legitimize and acknowledge it.
          Stop it! You're hurting my feelings.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Once again, I go with you're only offended if you choose to be. You want to start drama, be in the middle of it, or choose not to be offended realizing life is too short to be wrapped up in drama so instead, you seek out fun and uplifting things to be in the middle of.

            It happened, it's history, it's long past. No need to sweep it under the rug for one side nor dig it up on the other.

            Seriously. All of our statues of historical figures would have to taken down or did away with for some reason or another as someone found issue with something they did.

            None of them were perfect, they were all human after all.


            Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    PC gone rabid and out of control ? Or do they have a point ?
    Students at University of Missouri Want 'Offensive' Statue of Thomas Jefferson Removed
    They should let this one go. The guy was a POTUS and was born into the situation. It's not like he was around during the civil war and was on the side of the south. TJ's a non starter so let it go.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      They have a point. Jefferson was a cruel slave owner, hypocrite and racist. He owned hundreds of slaves and could have freed them upon his death but only freed what were likely his own children from his mistress Sally. He didn't even free her. Instead nearly two hundred slaves were put on the auction block and their slavery continued for decades more.

      He also was left money by a Polish general friend specifically to buy his slaves freedom and he didn't bother.

      Here's a short article on Jefferson:

      http://nytimes.com/2012/12/01/opinio...jefferson.html

      Here's an excellent longer article about Jefferson as a slave owner. It describes his nail making business in great detail including the fact that 10, 11 and 12 year old boys were the ones who made the nails. The article mentions how these boys had to be whipped to keep them productive.

      Another interesting point is that Jefferson's view of emancipation for slaves seemed to change right about the same time when he realized the value of his slaves increased 4% a year do to births.

      The article also refers to the Polish general.

      We can be forgiven if we interrogate Jefferson posthumously about slavery. It is not judging him by today’s standards to do so. Many people of his own time, taking Jefferson at his word and seeing him as the embodiment of the country’s highest ideals, appealed to him. When he evaded and rationalized, his admirers were frustrated and mystified; it felt like praying to a stone. The Virginia abolitionist Moncure Conway, noting Jefferson’s enduring reputation as a would-be emancipator, remarked scornfully, “Never did a man achieve more fame for what he did not do.”
      http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...-35976004/?all
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      • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        They have a point. Jefferson was a cruel slave owner, hypocrite and racist.
        More than a few of our presidents and Founding Fathers fit that description.
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        • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
          We should probably do away with the Declaration of Independence also, as Jefferson wrote and signed it (along with other Founding Fathers).
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          More than a few of our presidents and Founding Fathers fit that description.
          Yes, but there were those who never owned slaves such as the Adams and Thomas Paine and then there were those like Washington who at least freed them in his will.
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          • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            and then there were those like Washington who at least freed them in his will.
            Yes, he did. But that doesn't really make him any less guilty of being a cruel slave owner, hypocrite and racist.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

              Yes, he did. But that doesn't really make him any less guilty of being a cruel slave owner, hypocrite and racist.
              I agree. I started thinking about Washington and Jefferson a bit differently when I went on a tour of Mt Vernon and walked into the slave quarters. I couldn't help but imagine what it must have been like to live in that cramped cold cabin as a slave.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          More than a few of our presidents and Founding Fathers fit that description.
          It should be noted that of our Founding Fathers, George Washington was the only one that freed his slaves when he died.


          For me, the issue with Jefferson is what he wrote and what he actually did where two different things. He would write great things about freedom and human rights. However, in practice he didn't think of black people of as equals and didn't apply his philosophy to them.


          It's a complicated issue for me. On one hand Jefferson set the foundation for rights and freedom for this country that last until this day. On the other hand, he didn't apply this to all people.


          IMO, I'd let his statues remain, but discuss his thoughts in contrast to his actions.
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            IMO, I'd let his statues remain, but discuss his thoughts in contrast to his actions.
            Isn't that kinda the whole damn point of college? Maybe someone should explain the to the mizzou students.

            Take down the statue and you remove one more trigger point for independent investigation and thought.

            Ho! Wait! That's not what they want! They don't want independent thought! You can't be trusted with independent thought. They think they should TELL YOU WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK.
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          • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            For me, the issue with Jefferson is what he wrote and what he actually did where two different things. He would write great things about freedom and human rights. However, in practice he didn't think of black people of as equals and didn't apply his philosophy to them.
            Unfortunately, one's lofty ideals don't always match their personal behaviors.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Judging any historical figure by today's moral values is simply ludicrous What will our descendants think of our behavior a few hundred years from now?

      You've been pushing that mantra for years and the only thing ludicrous is your statements on that as an excuse for slavery and racism over the years. As a logic its just miserably poor.

      If you cannot judge a society except by its own social context then no society or historical figure can be condemned. Nazi germany leaders get off the hook, China's human rights violations get off the hook, As long as killing maiming and dehmanizing any human being is supported by majority then its fine and dandy.

      Its a totally immoral argument. Majority gets to determine morality

      You ought to be embarrassed but here you are again pushing the same claims (but thankfully getting less thanks (but still some) due to that racist rank being great reduced here at WF)
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I think the students at Mizzu have gone too far on this issue. (TJ)

    But I don't have a problem with college campuses -or any other institution making an attempt to slow down on people saying stuff like this to other people...




    My kid said the other day a teacher wanted to know a student's ethnic background. Here was the way he put it...

    "what's your migratory pattern?"
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I think the students at Mizzu have gone too far on this issue. (TJ)

      But I don't have a problem with college campuses -or any other institution making an attempt to slow down on people saying stuff like this to other people...




      My kid said the other day a teacher wanted to know a student's ethnic background. Here was the way he put it...

      "what's your migratory pattern?"
      I actually joined a company once and two of the head guys were twin brothers. People always asked THEM what their race was, and the ethnic background. They looked like white, Asian, and Hispanic all kind of mixed together, of course knowing locations might have been nice for them. And NO, they didn't look Pilipino. And NO, I didn't care what they were, and never asked. They had a meeting of everyone, and I was one of the persons there, and THIS subject came up. They spoke of how they were often asked. The sad punch line? They were both adopted, and didn't know the answer.

      But WHO CARES? I guess few in power really cared, because they were doing very well, in EVERY area I could think of. They were healthy, bright, married to nice pretty wives, apparently happily married, rich, with nice jobs in an up and coming company, had lots of friends, etc.... And NO, they didn't look odd or ugly, just a bit unusual. So WHO cares if every now and then a person is curious about the makeup, and may even be asking their kids?

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Mizzou student Maxwell Little hyperbolically begins, saying, “The need to project a progressive environment is just as important as food and shelter to survive”
    OK, progressive in WHAT? Certainly NOT education! Things are getting WORSE! NOT in morality! Things are getting worse! NOT in peace or freedom! Things are getting WORSE! OK, so WHAT? POLITICAL AGENDAS? SO WHAT!

    So the statue has KILLED THEM? How come the petition exists?

    and goes on to plead for a “welcoming environment,” charging that the statue of Jefferson doesn’t facilitate that end.
    WELCOMING? WHO? As for facilitating that end? Benches don't, buildings don't, clubs don't, they are AGAINST plants so I guess THEY don't EITHER. Streets don't, and sidewalks don't! Those massive cafeterias obviously don't. They are offended by SOOOOOO much, that I guess even the sanitized libraries of today don't. So rip them up, and sell it, and maybe they can get their FREE education!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    A storm in a teacup.

    If you think Jefferson is worthy of praise, there's a monument to him.

    If you think he's not worthy of praise, take comfort in the fact that pigeons will poop all over it.

    In the meantime there are far more important things to worry about.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      A storm in a teacup.

      If you think Jefferson is worthy of praise, there's a monument to him.

      If you think he's not worthy of praise, take comfort in the fact that pigeons will poop all over it.

      In the meantime there are far more important things to worry about.
      Haha!
      I just love your perspective!


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I'm so sick of this "hoooo, bad America - bad white people" shyte I could scream.

    Ya know who else had slaves back then? EVERYONE. Slavery was a global institution back then. Ya know who was the first to put a stop to it? America.

    Muslims were the global slaver traders. When, 20 some years after we became an independent nation, we stopped the importation of slaves. The muslims started taking our ships and people hostage and murdering or selling them as slaves in retaliation. T. Jefferson went to war with them and we kicked the snot out of them. About 60 years later we were the first nation on earth to abolish slavery completely.

    Wanna get your panties in a snit over slavery -- why not go tell Saudi, right now today, to free their women who are held as slaves - sold, bred, allowed to be killed at will.

    That's right - worry about human ownership and trafficking today instead of wasting a lot of time and energy on something that is so far in the past that none of us today ever experienced it from either side..............except women living now who have escaped.

    Send those mouthy little brats back to high school. They obviously don't belong in college yet until they finish learning what any 10th grader should know. If the schools aren't teaching it..............get with your local board and find out why the hell not.
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    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I'm so sick of this "hoooo, bad America - bad white people" shyte I could scream.

      Ya know who else had slaves back then? EVERYONE. Slavery was a global institution back then. Ya know who was the first to put a stop to it? America.

      Muslims were the global slaver traders. When, 20 some years after we became an independent nation, we stopped the importation of slaves. The muslims started taking our ships and people hostage and murdering or selling them as slaves in retaliation. T. Jefferson went to war with them and we kicked the snot out of them. About 60 years later we were the first nation on earth to abolish slavery completely.

      Wanna get your panties in a snit over slavery -- why not go tell Saudi, right now today, to free their women who are held as slaves - sold, bred, allowed to be killed at will.

      That's right - worry about human ownership and trafficking today instead of wasting a lot of time and energy on something that is so far in the past that none of us today ever experienced it from either side..............except women living now who have escaped.

      Send those mouthy little brats back to high school. They obviously don't belong in college yet until they finish learning what any 10th grader should know. If the schools aren't teaching it..............get with your local board and find out why the hell not.

      Well said Sal.

      And you know what . . I'm mighty pissed off that every thread of this nature ALWAYS turns into a political war - with, guess what? . . . the same bunch of "get on your high horse cos I'm never wrong" posters . . every time.

      Funny how they always come out of the woodwork for "firework" threads to push their blinkered views, but couldn't hold a candle to an educated discussion on topics that really matter.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I'm so sick of this "hoooo, bad America - bad white people" shyte I could scream.

      Ya know who else had slaves back then? EVERYONE. Slavery was a global institution back then. Ya know who was the first to put a stop to it? America.

      Muslims were the global slaver traders. When, 20 some years after we became an independent nation, we stopped the importation of slaves. The muslims started taking our ships and people hostage and murdering or selling them as slaves in retaliation. T. Jefferson went to war with them and we kicked the snot out of them. About 60 years later we were the first nation on earth to abolish slavery completely.

      Wanna get your panties in a snit over slavery -- why not go tell Saudi, right now today, to free their women who are held as slaves - sold, bred, allowed to be killed at will.

      That's right - worry about human ownership and trafficking today instead of wasting a lot of time and energy on something that is so far in the past that none of us today ever experienced it from either side..............except women living now who have escaped.

      Send those mouthy little brats back to high school. They obviously don't belong in college yet until they finish learning what any 10th grader should know. If the schools aren't teaching it..............get with your local board and find out why the hell not.
      I don't think people are wasting a lot of time worrying about the past. Maybe they are "mouthy little brats" to you because you don't agree with their views.

      I am kind of torn with this topic. I have deeply ingrained views and emotions towards men like Thomas Jefferson. Who all my Life I have been told what an incredible American hero he was.

      Its hard for me to change that belief about him. I just always admired him.

      I realize tradition and stuff that has been fed to you since you were a kid is hard to break.

      But it seems like we as a society should look for Truth wherever that truth may lead us. Good or bad.


      Its not changing history and keeping things "hidden" from people in this situation,

      We cannot forget our history ,good or bad.

      But we definitely do NOT have to have erected statues that honor Men who when we look at the facts are not who they seem to be.

      And that goes for anyone not just Thomas Jefferson .

      Sorry folks, at first I was against these Mizzou students as being way too PC. But the more evidence I come across from people like Tim the more I think we need to investigate this Subject more in detail.

      If indeed Jefferson is the racist hypocrite who spoke out one side of his mouth and did another thing outside the other, we definitely need to remove theses erected monuments to honor him.

      And thats NOT hiding things, We will still have Jefferson in Museums, history books, etc.. etc..
      We won't forget some of the great things he did

      But lets do not glorify him with huge monuments if in fact the Truth comes out that he was really a horrible example of a righteous man and fair human being!

      Remember the Truth will set you free
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        I don't think people are wasting a lot of time worrying about the past. Maybe they are "mouthy little brats" to you because you don't agree with their views.

        I am kind of torn with this topic. I have deeply ingrained views and emotions towards men like Thomas Jefferson. Who all my Life I have been told what an incredible American hero he is.

        Its hard for me to change that belief about him. I just always admired him.

        I realize tradition and stuff that has been fed to you since you were a kid is hard to break.

        But it seems like we as a society should look for Truth wherever that truth may lead us. Good or bad.


        Its not about changing history and keeping things "hidden" in this situation,

        We cannot forget our history good or bad.

        But we definitely do NOT have to have erected statues that honor Men who when we look at the facts are not who they seem to be.

        And that goes for the Thomas Jefferson as well.

        Sorry folks, at first I was against these Mizzou students as being way too PC. But the more evidence I come across from people like Tim the more I think we need to investigate this Subject more in detail.

        If indeed Jefferson is the racist hypocrite who spoke out one side of his mouth and did another the outside the other, we definitely need to remove theses erected monuments to honor him.

        And thats NOT hiding things, We will still have Jefferson in Museums, history books etc.. s

        But lets do not glorify him if in fact the Truth comes out that he was really a terrible example of a righteous man and fair human being!

        Remember the Truth will set you free

        Hmmmm,

        If we do that, then how are we to eradicate his face from Mount Rushmore? Remove one, to be completely fair and PC, then we have to get his face off the mount.

        Don't say we won't because it's art, because that statue is art as well.

        That kind of reminds me of the movie "The Ten Commandments" when the pharaoh wants Moses's name stricken from everything in Egypt.

        But guess what? Many, many Egyptians still know the name Moses and of him.

        Looking at it in that context, what really will be gained by it? Teaching people that if you whine, complain and protest enough, you can get your way? Isn't there enough of that going on anyway?

        Let me answer that for you since I work in customer service. The answer is a big resounding YES! And I'll let you in on my secret...When you're dealing with me, and throw those types of temper tantrums, you get nothing. Sorry, policy is policy and I can't help you. But if you're polite, I do have the authority to override policy and I will.

        That's how I combat mean, loud, nasty, snivelers, Ha!

        There really are more important things we Americans can rally together and protest about. Seriously.


        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Looking at it in that context, what really will be gained by it? Teaching people that if you whine, complain and protest enough, you can get your way? Isn't there enough of that going on anyway?
          Nope ! Teaching people who have strong convictions to stand up for those convictions and be unbending in those convictions regardless of how unpopular those convictions are

          Something that encompassed the very theme that many like Thomas Jefferson so highly coveted
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Funny, I thought people who had strong convictions and who stoofd up to those convictions and were unbending in those convictions regardless of how unpopular those convictions were ...well were the sign of a competent and very mature human being.

            And someone whom Thomas Jefferson maybe just maybe might fines very admirable :p
            You are partially right. It just depends on what those strong convictions are in regards to.

            Not everyone is convicted by the same things, some convictions are noble, some, not so much.

            Are these convictions for the betterment of everybody or just for me and mine? That is the question.


            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              You are partially right. It just depends on what those strong convictions are in regards to.

              Not everyone is convicted by the same things, some convictions are noble, some, not so much.

              Are these convictions for the betterment of everybody or just for me and mine? That is the question.


              Terra
              Purely subjective, of whether or not any convictions are for the betterment of everybody.

              As I said before Iam open minded about this. At first, I was outraged at the seemingly stupidity of these overly PC Mizzou students.

              However , I think a couple of Warriors on here have really made some valid arguments of why this statue should be taken down.

              Iam not convinced that it should. To be quite frank.

              However, more importantly I do think the Truth needs to be told. That is more or less what I argue for.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                Purely subjective, of whether or not any convictions are for the betterment of everybody.

                As I said before Iam open minded about this. At first, I was outraged at the seemingly stupidity of these overly PC Mizzou students.

                However , I think a couple of Warriors on here have really made some valid arguments of why this statue should be taken down.

                Iam not convinced that it should. To be quite frank.

                However, more importantly I do think the Truth needs to be told. That is more or less what I argue for.
                Absolutely and I agree. That's why I said it's history, it happened and there's no use sweeping it under the rug.

                If we were to remove the statue, we'd be trying to sweep the truth under the rug. But we really wouldn't be if we didn't do away with everything else he's a part of. I like 2 dollar bills, I think they're cool!

                If anyone wants to know the history on any historical figure, there are mounds of information to be found on them

                I personally find historical and recorded accounts on the whole life of George Washington completely fascinating!


                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Absolutely and I agree. That's why I said it's history, it happened and there's no use sweeping it under the rug.
                  Well, if you read that Smithsonian article I posted they mention a biography about Jefferson which had the part about the young nail makers being whipped but that was edited out. The book made it seem like he was a benevolent master to his slaves and that the slaves were happy with their life. That book was in circulation in our schools for decades and won awards. That was rewriting history or as you say sweeping it under a rug, keeping it hidden.

                  So, it's good, and important in my opinion, to get history right. We can still focus on modern day issues for crying out loud. Good grief. And nobody has their panties twisted up. Well, Claude perhaps, but that's another story all together.
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                  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Well, if you read that Smithsonian article I posted they mention a biography about Jefferson which had the part about the young nail makers being whipped but that was edited out. The book made it seem like he was a benevolent master to his slaves and that the slaves were happy with their life. That book was in circulation in our schools for decades and won awards. That was rewriting history or as you say sweeping it under a rug, keeping it hidden.

                    So, it's good, and important in my opinion, to get history right. We can still focus on modern day issues for crying out loud. Good grief. And nobody has their panties twisted up. Well, Claude perhaps, but that's another story all together.
                    And whose history is the correct one? Was the one that said he was benevolent right - or the other one?

                    He played a major part in freeing us from England and in helping to establish the new land. That wins him his part in our history. Whether he was good to people under him or not -- we hear both stories, so who do we believe? Right now it seems just plain fashionable to dis everyone from back then because there was slavery. If we weren't the first, we weren't - but we did stop it and part of it - the muslim slave trade was stopped right then.

                    We didn't live back then and don't know how it was to be in society then. We corrected the bad, so we need to just let it go. Maybe not forget - we should never forget............but we need to let it go. You don't keep flogging people over a mistake that they realized was a wrong and corrected. People seem to want to forget how many people died here to correct that error.
                    Why bother correcting them if people are just going to continue to jam it down everyone's throats like it's still going on?

                    We have a statue up of Jefferson because he was one of our nation's founders. He did one major job of establishing our country. If he wasn't as pleasant in his personal life - oh well. His personal life isn't what is important to our history as a nation. I see people still being honored now who are absolute scum in their personal lives. Yet they're being honored for something they did.

                    I just wonder if anyone protesting his statue has any idea how much of a slave they'd be themselves if we hadn't forged a new nation.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                      And whose history is the correct one? Was the one that said he was benevolent right - or the other one?
                      Did YOU know that a bunch of idiots actually got together periodically to rewrite the bible! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar I mean GIVE ME A BREAK! Either it is REAL, and info is in some way correct, or it is not. So either LEAVE IT ALONE, or it is not worth the trouble. But they are still questioning exactly how it came to be, and when it was first written. It is a miracle that something written back then in two languages that were relatively unknown has been replicated and translated SO many times, and spread all over the world.

                      I have seen people try to rewrite my OWN history right in front of me. I actually had a teacher reprimand me for never doing my homework and, at the time, I ALWAYS did! She claimed that I didn't do it that day, and I did. Someone ACTUALLY tried to erase my name and write theirs. I have seen people tell lies about me behind my back, and even in front of my face. And NOW, I see the same thing in schools about facts. FORGIVE ME(sarc) if I don't care much for "historians"!

                      He played a major part in freeing us from England and in helping to establish the new land. That wins him his part in our history. Whether he was good to people under him or not -- we hear both stories, so who do we believe? Right now it seems just plain fashionable to dis everyone from back then because there was slavery. If we weren't the first, we weren't - but we did stop it and part of it - the muslim slave trade was stopped right then.

                      We didn't live back then and don't know how it was to be in society then. We corrected the bad, so we need to just let it go. Maybe not forget - we should never forget............but we need to let it go. You don't keep flogging people over a mistake that they realized was a wrong and corrected. People seem to want to forget how many people died here to correct that error.
                      Why bother correcting them if people are just going to continue to jam it down everyone's throats like it's still going on?

                      We have a statue up of Jefferson because he was one of our nation's founders. He did one major job of establishing our country. If he wasn't as pleasant in his personal life - oh well. His personal life isn't what is important to our history as a nation. I see people still being honored now who are absolute scum in their personal lives. Yet they're being honored for something they did.

                      I just wonder if anyone protesting his statue has any idea how much of a slave they'd be themselves if we hadn't forged a new nation.
                      People are STILL wondering if robin hood ever really existed. Whatever, the story was NOT that he stole from the rich and gave to the poor. It was that he TOOK from the government what THEY stole from the "peasants", and gave it back to them. The original kings and queens came from the large families that supported armies, and gradually defeated "aggressors". They then charged the peasants a tax, and apparently the tax collectors were FREE to take what they wanted. A lot of the peasants DID happen to also be poor anyway. THE TAX COLLECTORS, of course, paid those higher up in the "government".

                      The pilgrims came here because they defied the "official" church. The founding fathers came here to get away from unjust taxation. Many others, INCLUDING many "slaves", came here to benefit from what had happened. Unfortunately they eventually twisted the laws to have full slaves. THAT sort of thing was what the federal government was there to prevent, but like half the people wanted to support it.

                      Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  If anyone wants to know the history on any historical figure, there are mounds of information to be found on them
                  The Air Force has plenty of records on large historical figures, many of whom their pilots got quite excited about!


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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                    The Air Force has plenty of records on large historical figures, many of whom their pilots got quite excited about!



                    The air force you say?

                    Well no wonder I get served vacuum sealed peanuts when I fly.


                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      The air force you say?

                      Well no wonder I get served vacuum sealed peanuts when I fly.
                      I take it you noticed meatloaf in the background? He's eaten all the peanuts, btw.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                        I take it you noticed meatloaf in the background? He's eaten all the peanuts, btw.

                        LOL!

                        I noticed, but I'm quite upset about the peanuts!!


                        Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Taking down a statue doesn't meaning something didn't happen.

                  The good a person does - the accomplishments he is responsible for - the importance of a productive life - should not be condemned because of the times he lived in. You can't punish the dead for doing what was acceptable in the times they lived in.

                  The truth is that slavery existed - it was wrong but it is part of our history. What problem will removing a statue solve? Will it reduce the gang violence or shootings in our streets today? Will it feed a hungry child or solve a traffic problem? No - it's meant to prove a point, get a win, make a statement... and you cannot erase or rewrite history.

                  What have these people done aside from finding things to be offended about?

                  How many of them will draft a Declaration of Independence for a new country, be a secretary of state, a vice president or a president. How many will have an accomplishment like the Louisiana Purchase?

                  If we judge history only on the one bad thing someone has done - we'd have no statesmen or heroes.
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                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Taking down a statue doesn't meaning something didn't happen.

                    The good a person does - the accomplishments he is responsible for - the importance of a productive life - should not be condemned because of the times he lived in. You can't punish the dead for doing what was acceptable in the times they lived in.

                    The truth is that slavery existed - it was wrong but it is part of our history. What problem will removing a statue solve? Will it reduce the gang violence or shootings in our streets today? Will it feed a hungry child or solve a traffic problem? No - it's meant to prove a point, get a win, make a statement... and you cannot erase or rewrite history.

                    What have these people done aside from finding things to be offended about?

                    How many of them will draft a Declaration of Independence for a new country, be a secretary of state, a vice president or a president. How many will have an accomplishment like the Louisiana Purchase?

                    If we judge history only on the one bad thing someone has done - we'd have no statesmen or heroes.
                    Like I said Im not so sure about taking down statues and whether that is appropriate or not.

                    However, we all do things that can be construed as being sinful and each of us has our own unique frailties. We are only humans. Clinton and Kennedy had their transgressions with women. Bush had his with cocaine and alcohol when he was younger.

                    But there are certain acts that are so egregious that they should NOT be ignored. And in fact some of these degrees of transgressions are so great that they really diminish the greatness that the person did.

                    And rightfully so

                    It may not seem fair to some but for many of us it makes perfect sense .Not necessarily saying it is true with Jefferson. But if some of the allegations are indeed found out to be true about him I have no problem of taking him off the pedestal I once had him on
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


          If we do that, then how are we to eradicate his face from Mount Rushmore? Remove one, to be completely fair and PC, then we have to get his face off the mount.
          That was one of the first things that came to my mind when reading the article, but it is a bit different. This is at a university that these students attend and they have a right to protest and speak their mind.

          Robert asked if they had a point and I think they do, but even so, I'm not sure about taking down this statue. I, like Kurt, have mixed feelings about this because the words Jefferson wrote and his leadership are significant.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Ya know who was the first to put a stop to it? America.
      Not even close. Abolition Of Slavery Timeline
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post


        LOl...how could it be. I couldn't even muster the energy to respond to it. Sal on issues of race and slavery is always like the anti -wikipedia.
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        • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          LOl...how could it be. I couldn't even muster the energy to respond to it. Sal on issues of race and slavery is always like the anti -wikipedia.
          Same here, I just had to let it go.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    In the US, a fair number of states outlawed slavery early on! Lincoln didn't really get rid of slavery at all. He BANNED it in the US!

    1787
    Slavery is made illegal in the Northwest Territory. The U.S Constitution states that Congress may not ban the slave trade until 1808.

    1808
    Congress bans the importation of slaves from Africa.

    1820
    The Missouri Compromise bans slavery north of the southern boundary of Missouri.

    1831
    William Lloyd Garrison begins publishing the Liberator, a weekly paper that advocates the complete abolition of slavery. He becomes one of the most famous figures in the abolitionist movement.

    1846
    The Wilmot Proviso, introduced by Democratic representative David Wilmot of Pennsylvania, attempts to ban slavery in territory gained in the Mexican War. The proviso is blocked by Southerners, but continues to enflame the debate over slavery.

    1849
    Harriet Tubman escapes from slavery and becomes one of the most effective and celebrated leaders of the Underground Railroad. I should add that it would NOT have worked without white and/or free support!

    1850
    The continuing debate whether territory gained in the Mexican War should be open to slavery is decided in the Compromise of 1850: California is admitted as a free state, Utah and New Mexico territories are left to be decided by popular sovereignty, and the slave trade in Washington, DC is prohibited. It also establishes a much stricter fugitive slave law than the original, passed in 1793.

    1852
    Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin is published. It becomes one of the most influential works to stir anti-slavery sentiments.

    1854
    Congress passes the Kansas-Nebraska Act, establishing the territories of Kansas and Nebraska. The legislation repeals the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and renews tensions between anti- and proslavery factions.

    1861
    The Confederacy is founded when the deep South secedes, and the Civil War begins. And WHO really fought the war? States where slavery was legal, and states where it was not.

    The interesting thing is that people NOW are fighting AGAINST laws that have existed since the beginning and blacks fought to get applied to them! SERIOUSLY, I recently saw part of roots where one character, I believe it was Kunta Kinte was lamenting that blacks were not afforded a right and that the lack of that right, which WHITES had, facilitated slavery! TODAY, people, including people that were in that film, are fighting AGAINST the right that they now have! INCREDIBLE!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    This forum thread is offensive.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      This forum thread is offensive.
      That makes you weak according to Thom, who is never offended because he's strong and doesn't get offended by offensive stuff, because that would make him weak and only weak people are offended by offensive things.
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        That makes you weak according to Thom, who is never offended because he's strong and doesn't get offended by offensive stuff, because that would make him weak and only weak people are offended by offensive things.
        I realize youre trying to be sarcstic, but ironically your sarcasm has fallen flat because in jest you have spoken the absolute truth.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          I realize youre trying to be sarcstic, but ironically your sarcasm has fallen flat because in jest you have spoken the absolute truth.
          That's ok. I'm not offended. I was trying to be funny more than anything, poking a little fun at Thom repeating himself a bit but am glad I spoke an absolute truth. It happens once in a while.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        That makes you weak according to Thom, who is never offended because he's strong and doesn't get offended by offensive stuff, because that would make him weak and only weak people are offended by offensive things.






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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        That makes you weak according to Thom, who is never offended because he's strong and doesn't get offended by offensive stuff, because that would make him weak and only weak people are offended by offensive things.
        You're off there a little Tim. Only weak people find things offensive Let's face it, if you find a statue or piece of cloth, neither of which can harm or doing anything to you offensive. That shows a weak mind. After all being offended comes from within.
        I will admit I thought I was offended yesterday when the Bucs blew a 24 point lead to the Redskins, but quickly realized it was actually disgust.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I never thought of it as "weak" before - but always thought it "shallow" when people got bent out of shape over an image - a statue - a line someone said.

          . The joyous freedom of possibility. Dissent can be personal, collective, creative -- whatever you want it to be. Revolt can be physical or spectral, a blackspot on a corporate logo or a digital mindbomb posted online.
          The quote above was an "explanation of Occupy Wall Street" - and about as bright as this statue 'controversy'. In other words -the freedom to whine and complain about anything that bothers you whether it makes sense or not. I wonder if any of the generation of complainers will accomplish anything to merit having a statue built to honor THEM.

          It seems people are looking for things to be upset about - so they can express outrage. It's like protests in search of a "cause".

          Holidays are looming so look for new petitions expressing anger over something or other...coming soon to a social media outlet near you.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Disgusted is a cousin to offended.

          By the way, if you look at this thread, the only people who really seemed offended and upset are the ones who didn't like these students or anyone else saying anything bad about Jefferson. That's the ironic part in this.

          As Robert correctly pointed out, when all your life you are told someone is a great person and American, it isn't easy to hear that this isn't true. When someone points out this person was a racist, hypocrite, rapist, cruel slave owner or whatever, they may not like it and yes, get offended and angry. A definition of being offended is being angry. It's just a human emotion.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Disgusted is a cousin to offended.

            By the way, if you look at this thread, the only people who really seemed offended and upset are the ones who didn't like these students or anyone else saying anything bad about Jefferson. That's the ironic part in this.

            As Robert correctly pointed out, when all your life you are told someone is a great person and American, it isn't easy to hear that this isn't true. When someone points out this person was a racist, hypocrite, rapist, cruel slave owner or whatever, they may not like it and yes, get offended and angry. A definition of being offended is being angry. It's just a human emotion.
            And either you control your emotions or you let someone or something else control your emotions. The weaker mind gives that control to something or someone else
            I was taught way back in school about Jefferson including learning about him owning slaves. So it wasn't something new.
            I also wasn't angry or upset over this whole statue thing. I felt it's stupid and still do.
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


            As Robert correctly pointed out, when all your life you are told someone is a great person and American, it isn't easy to hear that this isn't true. When someone points out this person was a racist, hypocrite, rapist, cruel slave owner or whatever, they may not like it and yes, get offended and angry. A definition of being offended is being angry. It's just a human emotion.
            Yes Tim , its a tough pill to swallow.

            Tough for a lot people. I totally realize that. And I get it.

            I remember in 8th grade back in 82' my middle school took a trip to DC. We stopped off at Monticello to visit Jefferson's home. It was so glorious . I can remember my teachers reeling off fact after fact about the great things Jefferson did and how he was one of our greatest heroes.

            The tour guides told us 'impressionable' kids that Jefferson could do no wrong.

            So yeah the Truth hurts . It still hard for me to accept

            But that's where you grow as a human being. You look for Truth. And shake off the preconceived notions that were incubated and fed to you your whole Life

            Of course we need to recognize some of the great things that Jefferson did for our Country as a Founding Father. That goes without saying.

            But let's not neglect to tell the whole story about him


            By doing this we all learn of where we have been and where we need to go . And most importantly what we do not need to repeat again


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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    I find it impossible to elucidate my feelings of contempt for the children involved in this.

    I wonder how many of them would sign the document that ended with:

    And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
    My guess is not a single one.
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    The statue to someone of a black american descent would be offensive, or rather someone that has common sense. I was just reading on Thomas Jefferson's ideologies, and really guys.....why is the statue of a man like this on an education ground?

    absurd if you ask me.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

      The statue to someone of a black american descent would be offensive, or rather someone that has common sense. I was just reading on Thomas Jefferson's ideologies, and really guys.....why is the statue of a man like this on an education ground?

      absurd if you ask me.

      What you think is ok today will be absurd in 200 years.

      Remember, Jefferson grew up in a time of witch trials. Not exactly modern day US.
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    i don't think you get the point, the point is not Thomas jefferson, the point is placing the statue of a man with this ideology in an educational institution.

    Although i would think it's coded in our humanity/common sense to not not treat other human beings the way we would not like to be treated.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I don't think you get the point - and if you think humanity is coded that way - I wish you luck as life is going to be a shocker for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I don't think you get the point - and if you think humanity is coded that way - I wish you luck as life is going to be a shocker for you.
        From your comment and mentality, i know it's not.
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    • Profile picture of the author agc
      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

      i don't think you get the point, the point is not Thomas jefferson, the point is placing the statue of a man with this ideology in an educational institution.
      God forbid you allow anything controversial and though provoking in an educational environment.

      We must "STAMP OUT INTOLERANCE".
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      • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
        Originally Posted by agc View Post

        God forbid you allow anything controversial and though provoking in an educational environment.

        We must "STAMP OUT INTOLERANCE".
        We should entertain controversial subjects and thought provoking subjects in an environment, but there is nothing thought provoking about the statue of a bo·na fide
        racist in a learning institution.

        were does a mentally handicap man fit in? you tell me... I can understand the statue being placed in a mental institution,but not in a college.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

      i don't think you get the point, the point is not Thomas jefferson, the point is placing the statue of a man with this ideology in an educational institution.
      If you read some of the comments here, people try to downplay what Jefferson did as a slave owner:

      "it's the one thing he did wrong". Sure, but he owned, bought and sold 600 human beings. He had 10, 11, 12 year old boys whipped to keep them productive working 15 hour days, every day. He sold slaves as punishment and to pay for an extravagant life style. He didn't bother even trying to free his slaves when he had a chance. He encouraged others not to free their slaves.

      "But it was how things were then". Not really. Everyone didn't own slaves. Many of those who did decided to free their slaves because of the revolution and the realization that slavery was wrong.

      Instead, we get people saying what a moron "All" Sharpton is. Smh
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        If you read some of the comments here, people try to downplay what Jefferson did as a slave owner:

        "it's the one thing he did wrong".
        Yeah. I was watching a tape of Mackenzie Phillips the other day. Her dad John Phillips of Mamas and Papas was really a good guy . Just a caring and compassionate person to everyone. He just had that one blemish on his legacy and that was raping is daughter for over 10 years. Other than that he was really a swell guy . And his legacy should not be tarnished as "it's the one thing he did wrong"
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          Yeah. I was watching a tape of Mackenzie Phillips the other day. Her dad John ....
          Yeah. He also received a liver transplant and then was seen getting plastered in a bar. Besides that..... lol
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

      i don't think you get the point, the point is not Thomas jefferson, the point is placing the statue of a man with this ideology in an educational institution.

      Although i would think it's coded in our humanity/common sense to not not treat other human beings the way we would not like to be treated.

      I don't think you get the point.

      When you start removing historical significance, it will snowball & never stop, you'll eventually be left with today & no history.

      What's next, burning history books in Salem?
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      • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I don't think you get the point.

        When you start removing historical significance, it will snowball & never stop, you'll eventually be left with today & no history.

        What's next, burning history books in Salem?
        We can argue about this from bc to ad and no one would convince anyone. Your opinion is your opinion at the end of the day.

        If you believe the students are not meant to be protesting, that is your own cup of tea, and your own issue. It doesn't make it absolutely insignificant or wrong to protest about something that is ludicrous in my own opinion.

        We are all entitled to our different opines, and what you think is right, would be wrong to someone else. However when all is said and done, i wholeheartedly support the decision to protest by the students.

        The statue has no place in a social institution.
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      • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I don't think you get the point.

        When you start removing historical significance, it will snowball & never stop, you'll eventually be left with today & no history.
        Is that even possible? Can there even be a "today" without a yesterday?
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          Is that even possible? Can there even be a "today" without a yesterday?

          Sure, when they're finished burning history books & museums.

          Good luck researching your family tree when it becomes illegal.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Sure, when they're finished burning history books & museums.

            Good luck researching your family tree when it becomes illegal.
            What do books have to do with statues?
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            • Profile picture of the author agc
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              What do books have to do with statues?
              You think they're going to be satisfied once the statue gets removed? Their freshly validated agenda will lead them straight to the library for the next round of thought cleansing.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                The idea that America and the West grew rich through oppression and exploitation is strongly held among many intellectuals and activists. In the West, the exploitation thesis is invoked, by Jesse Jackson and others, to demand the payment of hundreds of billions of dollars in reparations for slavery and colonialism to African-Americans and natives of the Third World.
                Did the West enrich itself at the expense of minorities and the Third World through its distinctive crimes of slavery and colonialism? This thesis is hard to sustain,
                Slavery has existed in every known civilization. The Chinese had slavery, and so did ancient India. Slavery was common all over Africa, and American Indians had slavery long before Columbus arrived on this continent.
                But only in the West did a movement arise, not of slaves, but of potential slave-owners, to oppose slavery in principle.
                During the Civil War, hundreds of thousands of white men died to bring freedom to African Americans -- a group that was not in a position to secure freedom for itself.
                Muhammad Ali. After defeating George Foreman for the heavyweight title in Zaire, Muhammad Ali returned to the United States where he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat."
                An excellent article littered with facts, which most ungrateful, racist bigots will continue to ignore.

                How the West grew rich - Washington Times


                Joe Mobley
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post


                  Muhammad Ali. After defeating George Foreman for the heavyweight title in Zaire, Muhammad Ali returned to the United States where he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat."


                  An excellent article littered with facts, which most ungrateful, racist bigots will continue to ignore.

                  Joe Mobley
                  and as if to prove my point - Look at this bare faced racist poster quoting and bolding a passage out of context as if to indicate a black person was happy at slavery.

                  P.S. the link is to an excerpt from a book that derides multiculturalism not a report piece from washington times (riddled with argument more than Mobley's alleged facts. Anyone that knows Ali knows he loved to quip and joke so a few racism defenders have seized upon the joke. The stupidity of it is that the whole reason the world knows him as Muahmmed Ali rather than Cassius is because of his disdain of slavery
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                  • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    The stupidity of it is that the whole reason the world knows him as Muahmmed Ali rather than Cassius is because of his disdain of slavery
                    Odd pillar for him to hang such conviction.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                      Odd pillar for him to hang such conviction.
                      It wasn't like that really. He was originally named after a white abolitionist Cassius Marcellus Clay. When he converted to the Nation of Islam he changed his name to Cassius X renouncing his surname calling it his slave name, This makes sense as slaves often lost their names and where given new ones bu the slave holders.But he used the name Cassius X only until Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad gave him a holy name, which was Muhammad Ali which means beloved of God.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                        It wasn't like that really. He was originally named after a white abolitionist Cassius Marcellus Clay. When he converted to the Nation of Islam he changed his name to Cassius X renouncing his surname calling it his slave name, This makes sense as slaves often lost their names and where given new ones bu the slave holders.But he used the name Cassius X only until Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad gave him a holy name, which was Muhammad Ali which means beloved of God.
                        I totally get him wanting to change his name for that reason.

                        But Islam, and by extension its offspring like the Nation of Islam, also carries some heavy slavery baggage.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                          But Islam, and by extension its offspring like the Nation of Islam, also carries some heavy slavery baggage.
                          1 Timothy
                          Chapter 6:1-2

                          Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

                          Ephesians
                          Chapter 6:1

                          Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

                          Exodus
                          Chapter 21:20-21

                          And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

                          Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
                          Oh happy day.


                          Joe Mobley
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                        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                          I totally get him wanting to change his name for that reason.

                          But Islam, and by extension its offspring like the Nation of Islam, also carries some heavy slavery baggage.
                          Yep a lot of different religions, political parties and countries have slavery baggage. I think the idea should be to focus on the good, remember the bad and learn from both.
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                          Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
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                          • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                            Yep a lot of different religions, political parties and countries have slavery baggage. I think the idea should be to focus on the good, remember the bad and learn from both.
                            This isn't the place for that kind of talk.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                You think they're going to be satisfied once the statue gets removed? Their freshly validated agenda will lead them straight to the library for the next round of thought cleansing.
                Oh give your not so hidden racism a break. "they" have a library right now at the University, with books with his name in it and no one has claimed they want his name removed from books there. "They" have been satisfied with that for ages. You and Yukon's Malarkey removing a statue (or in other cases a flag) that are commemorating something not recording it for history books means the local library is next is just drivelling nonsense. This is hardly the first time a symbol of commemoration has been requested to be removed and no one ever - not decades ago or today called for books next

                You both are just making up things for your own race based agenda.
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Oh give your not so hidden racism a break. "they" have a library right now at the University, with books with his name in it and no one has claimed they want his name removed from books there. "They" have been satisfied with that for ages. You and Yukon's Malarkey removing a statue (or in other cases a flag) that are commemorating something not recording it for history books means the local library is next is just drivelling nonsense. This is hardly the first time a symbol of commemoration has been requested to be removed and no one ever - not decades ago or today called for books next

                  You both are just making up things for your own race based agenda.
                  My not so hidden racism. lol indeed. Oh how those who know absolutely nothing soooooooo like to think they know everything.

                  Here we are going for a family drive on Saturday.


                  [[ point made, personal picture removed ]]


                  Go crawl back under your rabble rousing rock and don't come back until you find a clue you self important twit.

                  My not so hidden racism indeed.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                    Go crawl back under your rabble rousing rock and don't come back until you find a clue you self important twit.

                    My not so hidden racism indeed.
                    OH NO HE POSTED A PICTURE OF A WHITE MAN DRIVING WITH AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN

                    So I will have to run and hide......LOL

                    Nah.....dream on......I'll be right there standing on top of the rock. No verification of you no verification of her identity (seriously on a marketing board you think jpeg proves anything?) and you could be married twenty years to a black woman. You don't get an honorary black pass on making poor arguments about race. Shucks there have been people married to minorities who STILL thought they were better! So try something else

                    Meanwhile try answering the point instead or running away from it. Why don't we say the same of other crimes. pedophiles, rapist, hitler all of them had other sides so why is it not nuanced and wrong to say those people were bad
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              What do books have to do with statues?
              History...
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Of course the irony of not tolerating intolerance was zooom right over your head.

    I even made it big and bold. Hint: that was a hint.

    You can go back and try again if you like. I'll give you a free do over.
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    Tim Phelan, thanks for your input. I am really surprised that i have to explain to supposed human beings why Thomas Jefferson's statue shouldn't be in a learning institution.

    I thought it would be like saying "if you fall from 20 storey building, you will die, so do not jump.", but i find myself trying to explain to adults on here, why someone that had antisocial views, and also saw the human race like a specie of whites and blacks, should not be put up in a learning institution (which is also a social institution)

    I guess God has really not blessed us all with the ability of critical thinking.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    I dunno about that. Is your position that anyone who isn't frothing and jumping to excommunicate TJ as one of our national heros is by definition "downplaying" his heinous slave master side? Do you feel the same way about JFK? Ronald Reagan? Ted Kennedy? Charleton Heston? Moses? Jesus? Mohammad? Hillary Clinton? I find it telling that people who want to tear down the symbology of someone else's sacred cow always act surprised when it's their own cows turn in the barrel.

    I think it's a pretty one dimension view, this notion that we have to reduce the public perception to align with some single dimension that you (not you personally, more you generally, or "one") find most important. Like you are somehow special and should get to choose which single dimension of the truth should be most important for everyone else.

    The problem with this reductionism is that it forces an artificial make believe simplicity onto something that's actually not simple, it's actually complex and nuanced. The reduction is lie, pretending to be the whole truth.

    The fact is that TJ was neither bad nor good, for to be either, as singular exclusionary adjectives, is to require the absolute total absence of the other in all subtlety and nuance. Not possible. He was great statesman, a great writer, and a great contributor to our national identity, which is an undisputed fact. He was also a slave owner, which is an undisputed fact.

    Was he abusive to his slaves? Perhaps, I honestly don't know. But once you start reconstructing a SUBJECTIVE narrative of that sort (the word abusive implies fault and affixes blame) from bits and pieces and scraps of history... none of which I'm assuming came from his own hand... then every single piece has to be considered carefully for the perspective and motives of the source. And any time you head down this path, you have to consider the full context, which by the way, you will never know (even though you always tend think to you do know). If we can't sort out what wtf happened with Bengazi and the smoking email server, and this stuff was recent and well covered, do you really think we can sort out what really happened 200 years after the fact using only the scraps of history that remain? Really?

    This is all very hard and very humbling. No student wants to learn that they will never know the full truth about the vast majority of everything. How depressing.

    So instead the mind sets out hell bent on reductio ad absurbum. The effort itself results from either intellectual laziness or insecurity or maybe just it's the best we can expect from an average intellect. "I must classify this thing so I can label it. Otherwise it would require me to investigate, consider, and like, omg maybe even acknowledge facts that make me all squirmy and uncomfortable inside."

    So of course, I mock this particular effort at reductionism, this stellar example of one dimensional thinking.

    Not because I'm downplaying the full reality of who TJ's was, complete with the inherent inconsistencies in what he has come to mean as a symbol. Rather, I'm mocking the simpletons who so fear the possibility of people with different view points, different understandings, and different thoughts, that they feel the need to attack and remove the symbols, as if allowing them to stand somehow lessens them. We can't allow anyone to acknlowledge TJ as anything other than a rascist, because we have decided that reducing TJ to one dimension by applying racism as we view it today and applying it in judgement of his life 200 years ago is the only view that anyone should be allowed to have of TJ. Which is patently absurd, obviously false, and would be shocking that the idea has even made it this far... would be shocking that is if one doesn't expect the political thoughts of the average idiot to be idiotically average.

    Some few people are big picture thinkers, are educated, and have taught themselves to (try to) separate fact from fiction, opinion from truth, intent from error. And most are not. I will always mock the small thinkers, but only the ones who feel somehow entitled to tell ME how I SHOULD think, heaping them with as much scorn and derision as I find entertaining.

    Crap like this is why democracy is doomed. We don't need democracy, where we have to get a consensus from every idiot for every little decision. What we need is representative democracy, where the representatives actually have some shred of integrity, honor, dignity, intelligence, and a genuine interest in finding solutions to our shared problems and shared interests. Ah, but that's another rant for another day.
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    • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      I dunno about that. Is your position that anyone who isn't frothing and jumping to excommunicate TJ as one of our national heros is by definition "downplaying" his heinous slave master side? Do you feel the same way about JFK? Ronald Reagan? Ted Kennedy? Charleton Heston? Moses? Jesus? Mohammad? Hillary Clinton? I find it telling that people who want to tear down the symbology of someone else's sacred cow always act surprised when it's their own cows turn in the barrel.

      I think it's a pretty one dimension view, this notion that we have to reduce the public perception to align with some single dimension that you (not you personally, more you generally, or one) find most important. Like you are somehow special and should get to choose which single dimension of the truth should be most important for everyone else.

      The problem with this reductionism is that it forces an artificial make believe simplicity onto something that's actually simple, it's actually complex and nuanced. The reduction is lie, pretending to be the whole truth.

      The fact is that TJ was neither bad nor good, for to be either, as singular exclusionary adjectives, is to require the absolute total absence of the other in all subtlety and nuance. Not possible. He was great statesman, a great writer, and a great contributor to our national identity, which is an undisputed fact. He was also a slave owner, which is an undisputed fact.

      Was he abusive to his slaves? Perhaps, I honestly don't know. But once you start reconstructing a SUBJECTIVE narrative of that sort (the word abusive implies fault and affixes blame) from bits and pieces and scraps of history... none of which I'm assuming came from his own hand... then every single piece has to be considered carefully for the perspective and motives of the source. And any time you head down this path, you have to consider the full context, which by the way, you will never know (even though you always tend think to you do know). If we can't sort out what wtf happened with Bengazi and the smoking email server, and this stuff was recent and well covered, do you really think we can sort out what really happened 200 years after the fact using only the scraps of history that remain? Really?

      This is all very hard and very humbling. No student wants to learn that they will never know the full truth about the vast majority of everything. How depressing.

      So instead the mind sets out hell bent on reductio ad absurbum. The effort itself results from either intellectual laziness or insecurity or maybe just it's the best we can expect from an average intellect. "I must classify this thing so I can label it. Otherwise it would require me to investigate, consider, and like, omg maybe even acknowledge facts that make me all squirmy and uncomfortable inside."

      So of course, I mock this particular effort at reductionism, this stellar example of one dimensional thinking.

      Not because I'm downplaying the full reality of who TJ's was, complete with the inherent inconsistencies in what he has come to mean as a symbol. Rather, I'm mocking the simpletons who so fear the possibility of people with different view points, different understandings, and different thoughts, that they feel the need to attack and remove the symbols, as if allowing them to stand somehow lessens them. We can't allow anyone to acknlowledge TJ as anything other than a rascist, because we have decided that reducing TJ to one dimension by applying racism as we view it today and applying it in judgement of his life 200 years ago is the only view that anyone should be allowed to have of TJ. Which is patently absurd, obviously false, and would be shocking that the idea has even made it this far... would be shocking that is if one doesn't expect the political thoughts of the average idiot to be idiotically average.

      Some few people are big picture thinkers, are educated, and have taught themselves to (try to) separate fact from fiction, opinion from truth, intent from error. And most are not. I will always mock the small thinkers, but only the ones who feel somehow entitled to tell ME how I SHOULD think, heaping them with as much scorn and derision as I find entertaining.

      Crap like this is why democracy is doomed. We don't need democracy, where we have to get a consensus from every idiot for every little decision. What we need is representative democracy, where the representatives actually have some shred of integrity, honor, dignity, intelligence, and a genuine interest in finding solutions to our shared problems and shared interests. Ah, but that's another rant for another day.
      you know there are people out there that would come out and justify 9/11 with hundreds and hundreds of pages and pretty solid points, right?

      so your little paragraph of meaningless explanations doesn't make it right to .....let's stick to the point here....TO PUT THE STATUE OF A RACIST AND ANTISOCIAL HUMAN BEING IN A SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT!
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

        so your little paragraph of meaningless explanations doesn't make it right to .....let's stick to the point here....TO PUT THE STATUE OF A RACIST AND ANTISOCIAL HUMAN BEING IN A SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT!
        You would be right if ALL THE MAN WAS is a racist. But he was not just a racist. He was also many other things as well, many of the very important for our very system of government.

        Therefore, you are wrong. You are not wrong about him being slave owner. You are wrong in somehow thinking that we must collapse all the other dimensions of this man's character into the one dimensional representation of him that YOU think we should ALL agree on.

        Or as gramma used to say, you'd throw the baby out with the bath water.

        The simple is strong in this one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      The fact is that TJ was neither bad nor good, for to be either, as singular exclusionary adjectives, is to require the absolute total absence of the other in all subtlety and nuance.
      You are to be commended for dressing up totally vacuous nonsense in sufficient verbage to hide it as such from the uninitiated . However anyone with the intellectually facility to read what the verbage means can see the hollowness of the logic. As a society we do not grant bad or good based on perfection and claiming we do is just intellectually dishonest.

      SO the idea that the total absence of the other is the ground for determining good or bad people can be thrown out with the evening's trash. It like claiming we can't claim a wall is blue because it has a spec of red dust or a good meal can only be a perfect one and a bad one can have no good aspect. Its a contrivance - a fabrication for the purpose of attempting to construct an apparatus to excuse immoral behavior by a system of weights you think can offset the deficiencies in character and morality.

      Mind you, you are not the first to attempt it even in regard to race. Nazi sympathizers, racists, misogynists and every other mom of a child murder has made the same claim. "oh its nuanced. He really has good and bad points. he's not a bad boy he just had issues"

      I am not accusing you of any of such stances but its necessary point to be made. The problem with it as a rational construct is that its entirely subjective to what you personally are offended by and not offended by. Many racists appeal to it because racism really holds no personal point of angst. They have never experienced it or been in a position to experience it

      IF your argument is moral and logical way to assess good and bad in people then it should be applicable and used across the board but it seldom is. Do we ever hear the following?

      "Such and such really can't be considered bad. He had his good qualities and yes sometimes raped children under five but we must look at him with a nuanced view not singular for that action"

      "Such and such yes beat all his wives to the point of broken facial bones and limbs, locked them in a room denying medical attention until they healed with deformities only to beat them again but he was a good orator and leader and we must not look at him as evil but more nuanced and non reductive to a single flaw"

      No. particularly on this board I have never seen such an argument. Your thesis is always trotted out in discussion of racism and slavery - pretty obviously as a way to lessen the blow to the character involved totally sanitized by being careful not to describe what slavery involved - the beating - the incarceration the dehumanizing the statements of worthlessness of the humanity of another.

      and yes usually by a non black that is quite aware he has nothing at stake and whose family never did. Its okay to invoke it because its removed from his or herself - not like the wife or under five year old that at least potentially (of any race) may have some connection to the situations stated above.

      Its logically total nonsense
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        You are to be commended for dressing up totally vacuous nonsense in sufficient verbage to hide it as such from the uninitiated . However anyone with the intellectually facility to read what the verbage means can see the hollowness of the logic. As a society we do not grant bad or good based on perfection and claiming we do is just intellectually dishonest.

        SO the idea that the total absence of the other is the ground for determining good or bad people can be thrown out with the evening's trash. It like claiming we can't claim a wall is blue because it has a spec of red dust or a good meal can only be a perfect one and a bad one can have no good aspect. Its a contrivance - a fabrication for the purpose of attempting to construct an apparatus to excuse immoral behavior by a system of weights you think can offset the deficiencies in character and morality.

        Mind you, you are not the first to attempt it even in regard to race. Nazi sympathizers, racists, misogynists and every other mom of a child murder has made the same claim. "oh its nuanced. He really has good and bad points. he's not a bad boy he just had issues"

        I am not accusing you of any of such stances but its necessary point to be made. The problem with it as a rational construct is that its entirely subjective to what you personally are offended by and not offended by. Many racists appeal to it because racism really holds no personal point of angst. They have never experienced it or been in a position to experience it

        IF your argument is moral and logical way to assess good and bad in people then it should be applicable and used across the board but it seldom is. Do we ever hear the following?

        "Such and such really can't be considered bad. He had his good qualities and yes sometimes raped children under five but we must look at him with a nuanced view not singular for that action"

        "Such and such yes beat all his wives to the point of broken facial bones and limbs, locked them in a room denying medical attention until they healed with deformities only to beat them again but he was a good orator and leader and we must not look at him as evil but more nuanced and non reductive to a single flaw"

        No. particularly on this board I have never seen such an argument. Your thesis is always trotted out in discussion of racism and slavery - pretty obviously as a way to lessen the blow to the character involved totally sanitized by being careful not to describe what slavery involved - the beating - the incarceration the dehumanizing the statements of worthlessness of the humanity of another.

        and yes usually by a non black that is quite aware he has nothing at stake and whose family never did. Its okay to invoke it because its removed from his or herself - not like the wife or under five year old that at least potentially (of any race) may have some connection to the situations stated above.

        Its logically total nonsense
        Your entire post consists of you continuing to attempt to reduce people to simple binary unqualified good or bad, or at best some one dimensional continuum of good to bad. Which basically just proves the point I was making in the first place. Thank you for providing such a clear example of my point.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          Your entire post consists of you continuing to attempt to reduce people to simple binary unqualified good or bad, or at best some one dimensional continuum of good to bad. Which basically just proves the point I was making in the first place. Thank you for providing such a clear example of my point.[
          Thank you for demonstrating you have no logical argument to make in support of your point once it was exposed for what it is. Your inability to defend it with a logical answer speaks volumes and proves my point.

          Meanwhile yes - in a civilized world many of us will continue to claim and maintain logically that people who rape five year olds, beat their wives to a pulp every month, incarcerate human, treat them as possessions for their own wealth acquisitions and/or murder people for sport are bad people.

          We are quite happy and proud to reject your illogical and immoral defense of the immoral despite your fantasy it has intellectual gravitus.

          Have fun at your next "Hitler was Okay and you are Okay" meeting
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          RE: Mike Anthony

          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          Your entire post consists of you continuing to attempt to reduce people to simple binary unqualified good or bad, or at best some one dimensional continuum of good to bad.
          Or perhaps,

          " or at best some delusional continuum of al sharpton bigotry."

          Which is why Mike has been on my ignore list for some time. I can not and do not wish to see his posts.


          Joe Mobley
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            RE:
            Which is why Mike has been on my ignore list for some time. I can not and do not wish to see his posts.

            No in your case its because you can't back your often race based statements being dismantled effectively. Mind you I am not complaining just one less person of your persuasion I have to educate back and forth.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            RE: Mike Anthony



            Or perhaps,

            " or at best some delusional continuum of al sharpton bigotry."

            Which is why Mike has been on my ignore list for some time. I can not and do not wish to see his posts.


            Joe Mobley


            LMAO, you blocked him & he's still ranting.

            Hilarious.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              LMAO, you blocked him & he's still ranting.

              Hilarious.
              LOL...poor soul.....the thing I find hilarious is how silly people tend to think online. You can't block a forum poster unless you are a mod (my condolences continue). You can only block yourself from seeing their response.

              Which as far as I can see is great for the poster you are blocking - they always get the last word but the poor "blocking" poster announces it like its punishment "there thats your punishment You get the last word" - ROFL...silliness on the internets. I guess the silliness would be there anyway but the nets bring it together.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                LOL...poor soul.....the thing I find hilarious is how silly people tend to think online. You can't block a forum poster unless you are a mod (my condolences continue). You can only block yourself from seeing their response.

                Which as far as I can see is great for the poster you are blocking - they always get the last word but the poor "blocking" poster announces it like its punishment "there thats your punishment You get the last word" - ROFL...silliness on the internets. I guess the silliness would be there anyway but the nets bring it together.


                Maybe you'll find comfort in knowing your hero Al Sharpton is hard at work making the world a better place.

                Priorities are overrated.
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
              Quickest way to piss-off a bigot, start throwing the facts around.

              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              LMAO, you blocked him & he's still ranting.

              Hilarious.

              Joe Mobley
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                Quickest way to piss-off a bigot, start throwing the facts around.
                lol.....Sure sign of a bigot - has no facts but claims his racist arguments are facts.

                [quote]
                Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                Maybe you'll find comfort in knowing your hero Al Sharpton is hard at work making the world a better place.
                lol...another sure sign of a bigot. Will lie to make a point. We both know I am no fan of Shaprton. We have had the discussion many times when you were spouting your racism.

                What? is it bring a friend and he drinks free day at the local white sheet pub?
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    So I am hearing that Jefferson was a man who did good and bad things. Some say he was a great man who did good and bad things. The same was said for Bill Cosby the rapist. I guess I should add "alleged" rapist. He did good things and bad things. His show was taken off the air because it offended a certain group of people. A wide variety certain group of people. These students see this statue of a man who was a rapist and racist everyday or when they have classes. Just like we don't want to see Bill Cosby they don't want to see Jefferson. If you take the statue down what would be the aftermath of that?Nothing?
    So offending a group of people or taking down the statue, which one is the best deal?
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    • Profile picture of the author agc
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      So offending a group of people or taking down the statue, which one is the best deal?
      Well since appeasing the group of people who want to be offended will simply have them move on to the next thing to be offended about, I say the best deal is to leave the statue. We are doing them a favor really. We are giving them something to be offended about, which is all they really want in the first place.

      They are like terrorists really. Thought terrorists. They use the threat of bringing the condemning hordes of activists to your doorstep, trying to use that threat to break the spirit and the will of those who would oppose recoding the rules of society to fit their funny one dimensional notions.

      We don't negotiate with terrorists, and I say don't negotiate with these terrorists either.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I am really surprised that i have to explain to supposed human beings why Thomas Jefferson's statue shouldn't be in a learning institution.
        What arrogance - did you take ANY history classes about the founding of the country?

        The arguments are one dimensional and ignore the subtleties and the realities of the time Jefferson lived in.

        George Washington and Benjamin Franklin owned slaves - are their statues the next targets? Franklin later became an abolitionist - so does that make him tolerable? Looks like you have a lifetime of protests and demands ahead - how exciting for you.

        These men were products of their time - it doesn't make them less important to the country's history.

        I learned about the founding fathers and slavery in school - guess I had good teachers because they pointed out the disconnect between "freedom" and being a slave owner. We actually discussed it without people being offended - and this many years later being offended is the status quo for some.

        Just like we don't want to see Bill Cosby they don't want to see Jefferson. If you take the statue down what would be the aftermath of that?Nothing?
        I'm sorry - I can't argue with this kind of logic. I can't even comprehend this kind of logic.

        Take down all the statues you don't like - then take the Constitution, too, because it was written by these same men - then take down anyone who doesn't use solar panels, or was in the logging business or whatever other politically correct issues you find important to your life. People who have the knowledge of history don't need a statue.

        The article below is a great view of Jefferson - warts and all.

        http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...262393/?no-ist
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      • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
        Originally Posted by agc View Post

        Well since appeasing the group of people who want to be offended will simply have them move on to the next thing to be offended about, I say the best deal is to leave the statue. We are doing them a favor really. We are giving them something to be offended about, which is all they really want in the first place.

        They are like terrorists really. Thought terrorists. They use the threat of bringing the condemning hordes of activists to your doorstep, trying to use that threat to break the spirit and the will of those who would oppose recoding the rules of society to fit their funny one dimensional notions.

        We don't negotiate with terrorists, and I say don't negotiate with these terrorists either.
        They are college students plain and simple not terrorist of any kind. They don't go around the country looking for stuff to be offended about and you can't base a solution on something that doesn't exists
        Yeah right, being offended is what they really want because there is no way they could or even should be offended by a statue of a man that did horrific things.That would be to human like.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          They are college students plain and simple not terrorist of any kind. They don't go around the country looking for stuff to be offended about and you can't base a solution on something that doesn't exists
          Yeah right, being offended is what they really want because there is no way they could or even should be offended by a statue of a man that did horrific things.That would be to human like.

          Since any removal of a TJ statue is a non-starter IMHO, they are at most seriously misguided and wasting their time, but terroristic is a bit strong.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            They don't have to look at the constitution every morning they walked to school.
            Most of them probably haven't read that Constitution either - but they make sure they know their "rights".

            And you relate a modern day fallen celebrity with the man who drafted that constitution (that no one looks at). Just...wow.

            By all accounts, Jefferson wasn't a really nice guy. He owned slaves, he was in debt, his personal habits left much to be desired - but he rose above that and drafted a document you might want to read sometime. It's a pretty amazing piece of work.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Most of them probably haven't read that Constitution either - but they make sure they know their "rights".

              And you relate a modern day fallen celebrity with the man who drafted that constitution (that no one looks at). Just...wow.

              By all accounts, Jefferson wasn't a really nice guy. He owned slaves, he was in debt, his personal habits left much to be desired - but he rose above that and drafted a document you might want to read sometime. It's a pretty amazing piece of work.
              If they have read it, they missed the First Amendment and are putting that in jeopardy for their little petty grievances. There are probably thousands of statues of "pricks" that were erected for some extraordinary thing they did in an otherwise despicable life. Shall we spend our time going on a "statue witch hunt"? Aren't there more important real time, right now racial issues to address involving people who are alive?
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            • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Most of them probably haven't read that Constitution either - but they make sure they know their "rights".

              And you relate a modern day fallen celebrity with the man who drafted that constitution (that no one looks at). Just...wow.

              By all accounts, Jefferson wasn't a really nice guy. He owned slaves, he was in debt, his personal habits left much to be desired - but he rose above that and drafted a document you might want to read sometime. It's a pretty amazing piece of work.
              I am going to disagree and say most of them probably have read the Constitution.
              This should be changed to:

              And you relate a modern day fallen rapist with the rapist, racist,kidnapper, abuser who drafted that constitution (that no one looks at). Just...wow.
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              • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                Godwin's Law for 2015:

                "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Cosby approaches 1"
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          They don't go around the country looking for stuff to be offended about and you can't base a solution on something that doesn't exists
          Uh ... yes they do. Their sensitivity level is beyond ridiculous. Like I said earlier, I'd like to bitch slap them all and show them what a microaggression really is. If these "students" are the future leaders of this country, this country is going down the tubes. They couldn't lead a blind man. Honestly, I have nothing but feelings of disgust and contempt for these feeble minded ninnies when I read this crap.

          How Trigger Warnings Are Hurting Mental Health on Campus - The Atlantic

          Microaggressions and the Rise of Victimhood Culture - The Atlantic

          The Microaggression Farce by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Autumn 2014

          https://reason.com/archives/2015/08/...s-and-humanism

          Wisconsin university dubs 'America is a melting pot' a racial microaggression - The College Fix

          http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us...ting.html?_r=0

          Classic Tip Encouraging Hard Work Now Considered a Racial Microaggression by College | TheBlaze.com
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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Uh ... yes they do. Their sensitivity level is beyond ridiculous. Like I said earlier, I'd like to bitch slap them all and show them what a microaggression really is. If these "students" are the future leaders of this country, this country is going down the tubes. They couldn't lead a blind man. Honestly, I have nothing but feelings of disgust and contempt for these feeble minded ninnies when I read this crap.

            How Trigger Warnings Are Hurting Mental Health on Campus - The Atlantic

            Microaggressions and the Rise of Victimhood Culture - The Atlantic

            The Microaggression Farce by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Autumn 2014

            https://reason.com/archives/2015/08/...s-and-humanism

            Wisconsin university dubs 'America is a melting pot' a racial microaggression - The College Fix

            http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us...ting.html?_r=0

            Classic Tip Encouraging Hard Work Now Considered a Racial Microaggression by College | TheBlaze.com
            I was talking about the students who want to take the Thomas Jefferson statue down.
            Why so hostile? They are just starting out in the real world. Students have been protesting since forever it's kind of what they do. Soon they will graduate from school and move on. No bitch slapping needed.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

              I was talking about the students who want to take the Thomas Jefferson statue down.
              It's all a part of the same trend among today's college students. Everything is a microaggression and it's just at the point of pure ridiculousness.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                It's all a part of the same trend among today's college students. Everything is a microaggression and it's just at the point of pure ridiculousness.
                Except for the kaleidoscope of microaggressions that aren't ridiculous...

                http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/raci...sis#.ktz1LqQBZ


                Of course its gotten out of hand and in time it should, can and probably will be dialed back. But do you have a problem with folks simply trying to cut down on situations like this on college campuses?





                Or this... (what does it take to actually ask someone this?)





                There are plenty of these micros of many types flying around this society and IMHO it would be a much better one if people showed a little courtesy and (if nothing else) slowly but surely cut them down to a minimum.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  Except for the kaleidoscope of microaggressions that aren't ridiculous...

                  Of course its gotten out of hand and in time it should, can and probably will be dialed back. But do you have a problem with folks simply trying to cut down on situations like this on college campuses?

                  There are plenty of these micros flying around this society and IMHO it would be a much better one if people showed a little courtesy and (if nothing else) slowly but surely cut them down to a minimum.
                  Give me a freaking break. They are called insults (and also called free speech). I've had insults hurled in my direction all my life. If they can't handle the real world, they should live in their parent's basements and have food and movies brought in.
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                  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Give me a freaking break. They are called insults (and also called free speech). I've had insults hurled in my direction all my life. If they can't handle the real world, they should live in their parent's basements and have food and movies brought in.
                    keep smoking that stuff you are smoking, looks very good on you.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

                      keep smoking that stuff you are smoking, looks very good on you.
                      See what I mean about insults? lol. Point made. I'd call this a microaggression. I'm going to protest.
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                      • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        See what I mean about insults? lol. Point made. I'd call this a microaggression. I'm going to protest.
                        you considered that an insult? omg.....it's open to a controversial debate. It was actually a compliment!
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Give me a freaking break. They are called insults (and also called free speech). I've had insults hurled in my direction all my life. If they can't handle the real world, they should live in their parent's basements and have food and movies brought in.
                    And what's wrong with asking people to try tone it down?

                    I say if you don't have anything nice to say...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Give me a freaking break. They are called insults (and also called free speech). I've had insults hurled in my direction all my life. If they can't handle the real world, they should live in their parent's basements and have food and movies brought in.
                    I am going to cut suzanne some slack. Some might be getting the wrong impression because she is not thinking things through but she has as I understand it a grandchild of color she loves dearly and often sees through his/her eyes

                    Suzanne its not the same.

                    Its not the insult by itself that makes it troubling. its the insult WITH the minority status. You would be right generally ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL but consider the following

                    Man wonders into a room filled with women and calls you a derogatory name of the sexual female type

                    three men in a room filled with men of which you are the only female call you the same names

                    Honestly answer - same effect? same reaction?

                    I don't think so - the minority status is linked with the power of your accuser in the second scenario.

                    minorities don't get upset because of the names. IF there were no numbers, or power or potential repercussions directly or indirectly affecting them most minorities would just point and laugh hilariously at their accusers.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      I am going to cut suzanne some slack. Some might be getting the wrong impression because she is not thinking things through but she has as I understand it a grandchild of color she loves dearly and often sees through his/her eyes

                      Suzanne its not the same.

                      Its not the insult by itself that makes it troubling. its the insult WITH the minority status. You would be right generally ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL but consider the following

                      Man wonders into a room filled with women and calls you a derogatory name of the sexual female type

                      three men in a room filled with men of which you are the only female call you the same names

                      Honestly answer - same effect? same reaction?

                      I don't think so - the minority status is linked with the power of your accuser in the second scenario.

                      minorities don't get upset because of the names. IF there were no numbers, or power or potential repercussions directly or indirectly affecting them most minorities would just point and laugh hilariously at their accusers.
                      Thank you for pointing out that I am not a racist and don't condone racism at all. It's just the pettiness of protesting against inanimate objects that have been around forever when cops are shooting unarmed black men and women at an alarming rate. I have enough outrage over the real time racism and not enough left over for statues and landmarks.

                      EDIT: I am currently outraged at the brutality that a white officer inflicted on a black female high school student while in class. Anyone else see that video?

                      And I have been present during many slurs against women. Seriously, life's too short to get all bothered about the ignorance of some people.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          They are college students plain and simple not terrorist of any kind. They don't go around the country looking for stuff to be offended about and you can't base a solution on something that doesn't exists
          I hear you but personally I don't think its worth the capital spent. Theres still more than enough to go after thats real and present. As someone else stated he was POTUS. You are not going to start removing pictures from the list of presidents because they were horrible people or you'll have too many blank spaces.

          I don't know that statues or plaques really endorse the person anyway. With enough cash you can get things named after you.

          Me? Personally I would have let this one go and spend the capital elsewhere
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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I hear you but personally I don't think its worth the capital spent. Theres still more than enough to go after thats real and present. As someone else stated he was POTUS. You are not going to start removing pictures from the list of presidents because they were horrible people or you'll have too many blank spaces.

            I don't know that statues or plaques really endorse the person anyway. With enough cash you can get things named after you.

            Me? Personally I would have let this one go and spend the capital elsewhere
            Yes, but they are not asking for a picture to be taken down or plaques or even signatures on the constitution to be erased. They are asking for a statue to be removed. Because it is offensive to them and probably insulted that their campus would entertain this idea. They are college students, they will move on. Let them experience life.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    They don't have to look at the constitution every morning they walked to school. It isn't in their face like
    the statue. No comprehension needed it's just that simple. Do you think Cosby should be able to keep his shows on the air. I don't want to see him and I definitely would not want a statue of him at a university I was attending
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    • Profile picture of the author agc
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Do you think Cosby should be able to keep his shows on the air. I don't want to see him and I definitely would not want a statue of him at a university I was attending
      I'm sorry, has he been convicted of some crime while I wasn't looking? If not, does that mean your standard for dishing out punishment the mere allegation of wrong doing?

      To any cop who ever said "tell it to the judge"... I think they should immediately be charged with molesting their own children and given their fair day in court to try to clear their name. I have no problem applying the same standard to you, what with your determination to declare the guilt or innocence of others and hand out your own sentences for punishment. Perhaps you would like to be on the other side of a media feeding frenzy? I'm sure you'd jump right in with demands to burn her when her is you. Burn her at the stake. Well she is a witch. Look at her nose.

      Cosby is another one of those people who are multidimensional. Why is it so hard for you to deal with the idea that one can recognize his talents and contributions as an artist and through his social endeavors, yet not condone whatever bad dimensions there are to him? Particularly while such things are still allegations?

      Does your brain truly only have one neuron, requiring everything in this word to be compressed to a binary "good" or "bad"???
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Trend? There have always been protest at colleges.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Trend? There have always been protest at colleges.
      Yeah ... and they tended to be over things that matter a great deal more than microaggressions or some old statue that they don't like do. Like I said ... if these ninnies are what the colleges are turning out as the future of this country, we're in trouble.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Yeah ... and they tended to be over things that matter a great deal more than microaggressions or some old statue that they don't like do
        Iam not so sure about taking statues down but this is a little subjective don't you think ?
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    Nothing changes the fact that Thomas Jefferson was a bloody racist and his statue does not need to be in a place were all of his negative energy is not needed.

    Have you read the guys research on whites and blacks written by this mentally handicap ingrate ?? Christ, are we really arguing about why people are mad and sensitive that his statue is in a COLLEGE?

    It's either we have people here with racist ideologies, or people who simply cannot reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

      Have you read the guys research on whites and blacks written by this mentally handicap ingrate ?? Christ, are we really arguing about why people are mad and sensitive that his statue is in a COLLEGE?
      I will in all honesty have to confess here that I may not be understanding the depth of the man's depravity. Do you have a link. I've read of his racism but not really read him in depth on race.

      It's either we have people here with racist ideologies, or people who simply cannot reason.
      Ahem...stop at the first sentence.....DING! DING! DING! DING!

      Same names too from several discussions on race over the years.
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  • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
    one more thing, i see a lot of folks saying stuff like.........it happened 200 years ago..LET IT GO!!!

    and this has to be one of the dumbest statement i have heard in the millennium. When the actions of a man that lived 200 years ago still affects the present day, you want people to , LET IT GO??

    smh..........
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    Just because their cause is of little importance to you doesn't make it so to them.
    It's not really about some old statue is it? Do you say that because they are ninnies incapable of great deeds or thoughts?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

      Just because their cause is of little importance to you doesn't make it so to them.
      It's not really about some old statue is it? Do you say that because they are ninnies incapable of great deeds or thoughts?
      I don't care what's important to them. I care more about the quality of leaders that colleges are turning out and it is about some old statue ... and thousands of old statues or plagues or fountains or other age old landmarks. Yes ... they are incapable of great deeds and thoughts. They are far too focused on miniscule "slights."
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      • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I don't care what's important to them. I care more about the quality of leaders that colleges are turning out ."
        Yeah we end up with highly educated Bill Cosby's.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

          Yeah we end up with highly educated Bill Cosby's.
          Bill Cosby has suffered the consequences of his behavior. I'm satisfied. Those women missed their opportunities to prosecute him because they looked at Cosby as a stepping stone in their careers and that was more important to them than bringing him to justice. Some also accepted favors and money from him and "dated" or saw him several times after the alleged rapes or assaults.

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          And what's wrong with asking people to try tone it down?

          I say if you don't have anything nice to say...
          Yeah ... my mommy used to tell me that one all the time. If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything. Didn't really pan out in the real world. Some people say mean things anyway. Don't they? Going to spend your whole life fretting about it?
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Bill Cosby has suffered the consequences of his behavior. I'm satisfied. Those women missed their opportunities to prosecute him because they looked at Cosby as a stepping stone in their careers and that was more important to them than bringing him to justice. Some also accepted favors and money from him and "dated" or saw him several times after the alleged rapes or assaults.



            Yeah ... my mommy used to tell me that one all the time. If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything. Didn't really pan out in the real world. Some people say mean things anyway. Don't they? Going to spend your whole life fretting about it?
            Maybe a whole generation of college students can learn to tone it down. I endorse the "tone it down" movement wholeheartedly.

            Here's a pdf with a lot of micros categorized.


            From the pdf...

            Microaggressions are the everyday verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative messages to target persons based solely upon their marginalized group membership (from Diversity in the Classroom, UCLA Diversity & Faculty Development, 2014).

            The first step in addressing microaggressions is to recognize when a microaggression has occurred and what message it may be sending. The context of the relationship and situation is critical. Below are common themes to which microaggressions attach.

            http://www.ucop.edu/academic-personn...ggressions.pdf
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            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by magdag4321 View Post

              you considered that an insult? omg.....it's open to a controversial debate. It was actually a compliment!
              lol ... chill. Sounded like a microaggression to me. You see, that isn't really me and I don't smoke. I vape. And I don't vape drugs (other than nicotine. So you see I could easily be offended if I chose to do so by the implication that I do really smoke and may smoke something illicit. See how ridiculous things can get?

              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Maybe a whole generation of college students can learn to tone it down. I endorse the "tone it down" movement wholeheartedly.
              Good luck with that.
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              • Profile picture of the author magdag4321
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                lol ... chill. Sounded like a microaggression to me. You see, that isn't really me and I don't smoke. I vape. And I don't vape drugs (other than nicotine. So you see I could easily be offended if I chose to do so by the implication that I do really smoke and may smoke something illicit. See how ridiculous things can get?



                Good luck with that.
                i know right? "first appearance says a lot"
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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Bill Cosby has suffered the consequences of his behavior. I'm satisfied. Those women missed their opportunities to prosecute him because they looked at Cosby as a stepping stone in their careers and that was more important to them than bringing him to justice.
            Now that's a real insult. How do you know what was more important to them. What about the ones that did say something?You can't just throw that blanket around the lot of them
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by rhondaklewis View Post

              Now that's a real insult. How do you know what was more important to them. What about the ones that did say something?You can't just throw that blanket around the lot of them
              Where did I throw a blanket around the lot of them. I said some. Didn't I? But in reality, there was only one who filed a lawsuit against him, which was settled. What Cosby allegedly did was despicable, but I have little respect for a number of the women involved either. Makes no difference now though. They have the right to speak up and I have the right to question their morals at the time of the rape or assault ... in reference to the ones that continued to see Cosby after the fact or to accept money and gifts from him after the fact.
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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            [QUOTE=sbucciarel;10357501]Bill Cosby has suffered the consequences of his behavior. I'm satisfied. Those women missed their opportunities to prosecute him because they looked at Cosby as a stepping stone in their careers and that was more important to them than bringing him to justice. Some also accepted favors and money from him and "dated" or saw him several times after the alleged rapes or assaults.
            /QUOTE]

            I bet some of those ninny college students could point out that you did not say some until you started talking about favors and money. I was talking about the part I quoted, that is where you threw the blanket.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
    fun fact: A statue of Bill Cosby was taken down.

    There had been a petition calling for removal of the statue on Change.org, but it had attracted only 273 signatures before Disney's decision to remove the statue.
    "What ninnies they are."
    But enough of Bill Cosby
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    A kid could be a great writer of fiction, and cheat at math class. Two completely separate things. Just because he cheated at math class doesn't change in any way the quality of his fiction.

    Until, that is, god forbid, somebody wants to recognize him for his writing and he gets some kind an award. Then all of a sudden the flatearthers come out of the woodwork and everyone (if you believe the protesters) wants to remove his trophy from the cabinet. It truly is absurd. He is BOTH. He is a great writer, and a despicable cheater. To insist that we can only consider one (or the other) aspectof his character is just plain absurd. Retarded.

    Generally, this stuff only becomes a problem when politics get involved. Then, omg, its gonna be a complete shit show with flavor after flavor of one dimensional bs, each flavor being perpetuated in support of some inane one dimensional agenda or another, each pretending to the the whole truth, because to admit otherwise would be to invite actual discussion about the politics instead of forcing ones will on everyone.

    This is why I hate both the republicans AND the democrats, and I especially can't stand anyone who thinks either party is somehow the correct one. All of a sudden he has to be EITHER great hero or a despicable cheater, as nobody seems to have the intellectual capacity to embrace the fact that he is (or at least has been) BOTH. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    It's really not that hard to respect some things about someone, while not respecting other things about them. Love (and respect) doesn't have to be unconditional to be real. Whoever came up with that idea should be shot. Or at least have their bust removed from the Pantheon.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      A kid could be a great writer of fiction, and cheat at math class. Two completely separate things. Just because he cheated at math class doesn't change in any way the quality of his fiction.
      Shifting lanes to save your failed point? were we talking abut being great writers or being great at what you do? No we were talking about morality - good and bad so your example above makes no point

      Then all of a sudden the flatearthers come out of the woodwork and everyone (if you believe the protesters) wants to remove his trophy from the cabinet. It truly is absurd.
      No your lack of logic is totally absurd. It has even come up and no one has claimed he is to be removed from a list of presidents. Neither is there any award or trophy being removed. The statue is a remembrance not an award he won or a title he earned being taken away. Stop being ridiculous for a second

      Then, omg, its gonna be a complete shit show with flavor after flavor of one dimensional bs,
      Well at least now you have ceased trying to sound intellectual when making an illogical point.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Whatever. Peddle it to someone else.

    I will not respond to this thread further, nor will respond to to you anywhere else.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      Whatever. Peddle it to someone else.

      I will not respond to this thread further, nor will respond to to you anywhere else.

      Cmon...

      Shake it off & get back in the ring before the thread gets locked.
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