Storing Energy As Heat

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When the sun goes down the solar panels stop producing electricity, however, if you simply create heat from them you can go on creating electricity all night.

How can we store more energy from the sun and the wind? - BBC News
  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

    When the sun goes down the solar panels stop producing electricity, however, if you simply create heat from them you can go on creating electricity all night.

    How can we store more energy from the sun and the wind? - BBC News
    I've posted about super salts before. The infrared light (heat) from the Sun heats the super salts, which is used to create steam for a steam generator. The super salts stores heat for long periods of time, so the generators can run when there is no sun.

    There's some lower tech ways to store heat as well. One is to heat water. Water takes a bit of energy to heat, but it also discharges that heat slowly. Many people will use a solar water heater to heat barrels of water during the day, then that heat is used at night to help heat their homes.

    Tribes living on the Mongolian Steppe have started to use a very inexpensive solar heater. It's a bar of metal that is embedded in a block of clay. The bar is heated during the day with a parabolic dish that focuses the Sun's heat on the metal bar, which in turn heats the clay block.


    The people put the block in the Sun during the day, then bring it inside at night. The clay block releases its heat slowly during the night, saving them from having to collect and burn animal droppings or firewood, which is scarce on the Steppe.
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    • Profile picture of the author @tjr
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      There's some lower tech ways to store heat as well. One is to heat water. Water takes a bit of energy to heat, but it also discharges that heat slowly. Many people will use a solar water heater to heat barrels of water during the day, then that heat is used at night to help heat their homes.
      Does this principle apply to salt water? Couldn't imagine using freshwater as a sustainable storage medium.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by @tjr View Post

        Does this principle apply to salt water? Couldn't imagine using freshwater as a sustainable storage medium.
        Yes it works with fresh water, since it stores heat and releases it slowly. Not sure why you can't imagine using it? Why isn't it sustainable?
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by @tjr View Post

          Does this principle apply to salt water? Couldn't imagine using freshwater as a sustainable storage medium.
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Yes it works with fresh water, since it stores heat and releases it slowly. Not sure why you can't imagine using it? Why isn't it sustainable?
          I think @tjr was referring to there being better uses for potable water.

          If it also works with salt water, or another type of non-potable water, that may be more sustainable than using precious drinking water.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

            I think @tjr was referring to there being better uses for potable water.

            If it also works with salt water, or another type of non-potable water, that may be more sustainable than using precious drinking water.

            For storing heat to heat a home, it's a closed system. You only need to fill it once, topping it off once in a while if/when needed. Typically people use a few 55 gallon drums. The water is cycled through a pipe contained in a solar collector outside to heat the water, then stored in the 55 gallon drums which are inside, with an outtake running the water back through the pipe in the solar collector.

            I suggest using a garden hose to fill the system, but you can haul water from a lake, river, ocean, etc., if you think it's best, although salt water is very corrosive.

            There are open solar water heater systems to replace/supplement traditional gas/electric hot water heaters. These can be as simple as painting a garden hose black, placing it in a solar collector like the ones used for the pop can heaters, and hooking it up to the hot water pipe system. These solar water heaters are also useful for heating pools and hot tubs, recycling the water that's already used in both.

            There's a number of designs for making DIY solar water heaters that anyone with basic skills and materials has, as well as commercial products, both of which are just as "sustainable" as the hot water heater you're using right now.

            Solar heating of any kind isn't dependent on the outdoor temperature. The only thing that really matters is the amount and degree of sunlight.

            This video shows the most basic solar water heater. With a few simple enhancements it could be even better, such as putting the tubing in a solar collecting box and insulating that box, like shown in the pop can air heater videos. I'd also spray paint the plywood used black.

            The water temperature created with this system is much hotter than most typical water heaters and can save a lot of money by filling a typical water heater with hot water heated from the sun.

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    I've been interested in this subject for a while.

    Go to youtube & search for parabolic mirror or fresnel lens melting.

    Here's a couple of my favorite videos showing how magnifying sunlight is very powerful, even on a very small scale. Keep in mind both the lens below are low budget so there's no high tech stuff going on here but it's still impressive to watch.













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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I've been interested in this subject for a while.

      Go to youtube & search for parabolic mirror or fresnel lens melting.

      Here's a couple of my favorite videos showing how magnifying sunlight is very powerful, even on a very small scale. Keep in mind both the lens below are low budget so there's no high tech stuff going on here but it's still impressive to watch.



      Fresnel lens melting padlock into a puddle - YouTube



      Markus Kayser - Solar Sinter Project - YouTube
      I've also had a big interest in this type of stuff.


      For those that don't know, you can find Fresnel lenses in the old big screen projector TVs and use them in many solar projects.


      Old satellite dishes are parabolic dishes and can be lined with mylar (best) or even foil to create a solar concentrator.


      Fresnel lenses are placed in front of the focal point and parabolic dishes are placed behind the focal point and reflect the sunlight back.


      There's advantages to each, but the biggest difference is that parabolic dishes (and troughs) can be arrayed, which means more than one can be used on the same focal point, while Fresnel lenses can't.


      I actually have a small plastic credit card sized reading magnifier, which is actually a Fresnel lens, I carry in my wallet as an emergency fire starter.
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  • My warmest an' most sincere WTFs go out to you.

    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Old satellite dishes are parabolic dishes and can be lined with mylar (best) or even foil to create a solar concentrator.
    Oh, but you gotta stop this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Mongol tribes are also using horse hair (or another animal hair?) to weave parabolic dishes, like the satellite dish example I posted above. They line them with foil and use them to cook with. These are very light weight and the Mongols pack the parabolic solar cookers on their horses to use when they travel.


    Solar heaters made out of pop cans are popular, but it's probably easier to make them out of dryer vent "pipe".




    Solar troughs are cheap and easy to make, and can be used to heat water, which can store heat or used for things like swimming pools, hot tubs, etc.




    You can even use a condom (or clear plastic bag) filled with water to create a parabolic lens to start a fire:
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Solar heaters made out of pop cans are popular, but it's probably easier to make them out of dryer vent "pipe".


      solar air heater - YouTube

      I've seen one youtube video make a solar heater from gutter downspouts.

      I haven't tried one of these but I'm sure If the box included firebrick like the same stuff used to line the inside of a wood stove it would hold the heat a lot longer.

      There's also DIY videos on youtube for making your own refractory/fire bricks.





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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I've seen one youtube video make a solar heater from gutter downspouts.

        I haven't tried one of these but I'm sure If the box included firebrick like the same stuff used to line the inside of a wood stove it would hold the heat a lot longer.

        There's also DIY videos on youtube for making your own refractory/fire bricks.





        How to make refractory brick (fire brick) with sodium silicate PART 2 - YouTube
        I agree, insulation is one aspect left out of the YT videos I've seen for making solar heaters. I'd be tempted to use recycled Styrofoam or some of that spray foam insulation on the outside to insulate the boxes better.


        Another idea is to "suck" the air out of the box and create a vacuum. Air molecules transfer heat, so if you remove as many of them as possible, less heat will be transferred to the sides of the box.


        Thermos containers use a vacuum (along with a reflective surface) to help retain heat.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
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          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          I agree, insulation is one aspect left out of the YT videos I've seen for making solar heaters. I'd be tempted to use recycled Styrofoam or some of that spray foam insulation on the outside to insulate the boxes better.


          Another idea is to "suck" the air out of the box and create a vacuum. Air molecules transfer heat, so if you remove as many of them as possible, less heat will be transferred to the sides of the box.


          Thermos containers use a vacuum (along with a reflective surface) to help retain heat.


          I was thinking more of something like a masonry heater, heating mass to store the heat during the night.

          [source]

          Masonry stoves can release heat from anywhere up to 36 hours after the fire has gone out (the larger the thermal mass the more heat the appliance can retain).
          ...obviously the size of the masonry box determines how long the box retains heat.

          I did a little research on this, firebricks like the type used in a wood burning stove are rated up to around 2,000 degrees. The melting point for brass like the video I posted earlier (padlock melting) is rated at 1,700 degrees so I'm thinking using a Fresnel lens to heat firebrick should work. Heat from the Fresnel lens can be throttled by simply blocking the sun as needed (If needed).






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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            I was thinking more of something like a masonry heater, heating mass to store the heat during the night.

            [source]



            ...obviously the size of the masonry box determines how long the box retains heat.

            I did a little research on this, firebricks like the type used in a wood burning stove are rated up to around 2,000 degrees. The melting point for brass like the video I posted earlier (padlock melting) is rated at 1,700 degrees so I'm thinking using a Fresnel lens to heat firebrick should work. Heat from the Fresnel lens can be throttled by simply blocking the sun as needed (If needed).






            All About Masonry Heaters - YouTube


            Now I get it...sounds like a good idea and is similar to my comment about how the Monguls heated clay.


            I'd be tempted to use a parabolic dish array so it could "track" the sun throughout the day better. Either way, during the summer just cover or remove the solar concentrator.


            I haven't tried it myself, as I don't have a good southern exposure, but I've heard people simply painting a window shade black so it absorbs the heat and not reflect it back out the window. There's a gap of an inch or two between the shade and the wall, so the heat rises. They say this is pretty effective.


            When I lived in Las Vegas, I noticed a few homes put aluminum foil on their windows to reflect the sunlight, so I tried it myself. This simple thing had a pretty dramatic effect on the temperature in my bedroom.


            Simple things like this can be very effective. I bet the 50 cents I spent on foil saved me hundreds of dollars on my electric bill over the years, not to mention the environmental benefits of using less energy.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              I haven't tried it myself, as I don't have a good southern exposure, but I've heard people simply painting a window shade black so it absorbs the heat and not reflect it back out the window. There's a gap of an inch or two between the shade and the wall, so the heat rises. They say this is pretty effective.
              Very interesting. My mother always had black shades and white shades on all the windows.During the summer she would put the white shades down during the day, in the winter the black ones. I always thought she was just being weird, now I'm thinking she knew something I didn't.
              I'll have to go buy some new shades and give it a try. Every bit of extra heat helps.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                Very interesting. My mother always had black shades and white shades on all the windows.During the summer she would put the white shades down during the day, in the winter the black ones. I always thought she was just being weird, now I'm thinking she knew something I didn't.
                I'll have to go buy some new shades and give it a try. Every bit of extra heat helps.
                If the windows get direct sunlight, give it a shot. Just make sure there's an inch or two in between the black shade(s) and the wall so the heat can rise into the room and not be trapped next to the window just to heat the outdoors.


                I'll bet a root beer float that the temp just above the black shades will be warmer than the rest of the room when the shades get direct sunlight.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  If the windows get direct sunlight, give it a shot. Just make sure there's an inch or two in between the black shade(s) and the wall so the heat can rise into the room and not be trapped next to the window just to heat the outdoors.


                  I'll bet a root beer float that the temp just above the black shades will be warmer than the rest of the room when the shades get direct sunlight.
                  I going to
                  My house is really lacking on southern exposure windows. I have just two in the dining room and one in the kitchen.
                  My back door is on the south side also and what I do on sunny days is open the inside door leaving the outside door closed. The outside door is a double glass pane storm door. I have a small kitchen and it does slightly warm the whole room.
                  My dining room has a low ceiling, that's the room I'll test the shades in.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    I going to
                    My house is really lacking on southern exposure windows. I have just two in the dining room and one in the kitchen.
                    My back door is on the south side also and what I do on sunny days is open the inside door leaving the outside door closed. The outside door is a double glass pane storm door. I have a small kitchen and it does slightly warm the whole room.
                    My dining room has a low ceiling, that's the room I'll test the shades in.
                    Some ancient cultures were very good at aligning homes to get the most out of the Sun.


                    We now tend to align homes with respect to N,S, E, W. However, we'd be better off if we aligned them to take advantage of the Sun. For example, in colder climates homes should be aligned to that they get the most sun on the coldest days of the year.


                    And in warm climates, align homes so the get the least sun, especially during the warmest times of the year.


                    We could save a lot of energy just by aligning homes in respect to the Sun and by using black to absorb heat and white (or reflective materials) to reflect heat. No home in a desert should ever use black tar/shingles for roofing.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Here's a small scale model of the OP system, they're saying it's a closed loop system so they only need to add water/salt once & it's recycled over and over... They said the steam is even recycled.

    Now who's going to clean 7,000 mirrors in the desert every 30 days?




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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      This combines Fresnel lenses and solar cells. I've seen a similar tech that uses parabolic dishes to concentrate more sunlight on what's known as a "super cell".


      Basically, the concept is to concentrate more sunlight on a single solar cell. Reflecting light is very inexpensive. In theory, you put 10x the amount of light on a single cell to get 10x the electricity instead of using 10x the number of solar cells.


      The issue is the added heat which can damage the cells. Also, solar cells work most efficiently when they are cooled to around 60F (?).


      If an efficient way can be developed to cool the cells while concentrating sunlight on them, it will be a real breakthrough in solar tech. I know there's quite a few companies trying. If I was trying to improve solar systems, I know this is what I'd try to figure out.
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  • Profile picture of the author FreedomBlogger
    That is very interesting. I did not know that.

    Thanks for sharing
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  • Profile picture of the author jex1
    This is why you should understand the power of the sun and reflective materials before you build stuff

    London skyscraper Walkie Talkie which melted cars is fitted with shading | Daily Mail Online
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