How do people like this sleep at night?

by jex1
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Nothing to do with me obviously: How To Commit Suicide

Someone selling an actual guide - how to commit suicide - for $19.99.... just....no words.

I can't find anything about the owner but how the **** do people who prey on these kind of people sleep at night?
  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Sadly, they probably sleep pretty soundly.
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  • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
    Originally Posted by jex1 View Post

    guide - how to commit suicide - for $19.99
    Buy one, get gun free.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cali16
    Originally Posted by jex1 View Post

    I can't find anything about the owner but how the **** do people who prey on these kind of people sleep at night?
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here (and probably stir up a ton of controversy in the process).

    Let me ask you something, Jex. Should people be expected and even forced to keep living (e.g. by being locked up on a psych ward) when they truly no longer want to live? Even those with "mental illness", which, quite frankly, can really make life miserable in spite of years - and even decades - of treatment (which, btw, isn't always very helpful)?

    Why should they have to keep on suffering? Because so many people are uncomfortable with the idea of suicide? Because some religions condemn it? Because they should be selfless, and continue in their pain or suffering for the sake of their selfish loved ones?

    I encourage you (and anyone else who reads this) to consider another perspective; one that flies in the face of religious dogma, the current mental health system and laws regarding suicide, and the arrogance of all those who think they have the right to dictate what's right (or wrong) for someone else's life. It's very well written (although the website format is unfortunate) and makes countless points that most people fail to ever consider (the link is below).

    Then tell me if you still firmly believe the guy you've referenced, who's offering those who truly want to die information on how to at least do it as peacefully and painlessly as possible, is really "preying on people". (I understand your perspective, but I'm aware of the site and don't agree with your assumption.)

    Here's a news flash: If someone really wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. You can only lock someone up on a psych ward for so long because they're suicidal. (And most patients eventually figure out what they need to say in order to get discharged - even if they don't really mean it.) You'd also be surprised how many people successfully commit suicide while in a locked, monitored psych unit.

    Suicide: A Civil Right

    You'd be surprised how many people who think seriously about suicide will choose to keep living if they know they have the option to end their life, as peacefully and painlessly as possible, when and if they reach that point. Just knowing they have a way out if needed quite often helps alleviate some of the despair and hopelessness, and may actually give them the strength to hang on a while longer.

    That's why I don't believe this guy's intention is to prey on anyone. I actually think his intentions are good, and that, ironically, what he offers will very likely save some lives - or, at the very least, give their loved ones some comfort in knowing their death was as painless and peaceful as possible. (Btw, I haven't seen the eBook and don't know what methods he discusses.)
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
      Cali, first time I do not agree with you in a post of yours that I have read. While there are so many human ills, physical and mental where we have no cure, it causes me a lot of pain to know that others would consider suicide an available option.

      I've known people who did commit suicide, all were a horrible surprise. The whole problem when people can agree that or judge someone else's human life is not worth living is that it takes us down, and has taken us down, a very slippery slope. We've all seen the results of that mentality.

      Just how far is it going to go and extend itself? Should older people who are becoming a burden on their family be forced to off themselves because they aren't young and active anymore? Everyone with disabilities should be dispatched as well? Make someone angry and they get you on a list to be disposed?

      One does not need a religious background or practice to know human life is valuable. In fact, alternatively, there are religions that do not value human life.

      I think I can understand the frustration you see when mental or physical illness destroys someone's ability to think properly and they only want to end it. Because someone can no longer think clearly is no reason to give them the go ahead.

      We need to uphold standards for the next generation and all to come after them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

        The whole problem when people can agree that or judge someone else's human life is not worth living is that it takes us down, and has taken us down, a very slippery slope. We've all seen the results of that mentality.
        April, either I didn't word my thoughts very well or you completely misunderstood my post. Please know that I firmly believe that the only person who has the right decide whether or not his or her life is worth living or not is that person - and absolutely NO one else.

        That's what I intended to come across when I said the article I linked to "flies in the face of ... the arrogance of all those who think they have the right to dictate what's right (or wrong) for someone else's life." Perhaps that didn't come across in the way I intended.

        Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

        I think I can understand the frustration you see when mental or physical illness destroys someone's ability to think properly and they only want to end it. Because someone can no longer think clearly is no reason to give them the go ahead.
        Please know that I wasn't suggesting "giving someone the go ahead" to commit suicide. But I do believe, even more so now, in respecting a person's decision (with some caveats and a few exceptions) - although I never shared that with patients or therapy clients. Nor did I ever give anyone "the go ahead" or even remotely suggest it. My views changed a lot over the years; it's easy to have a black-and-white stance on suicide until you've talked to several hundred suicidal individuals (professionally as well as personally).

        My point about individuals with mental health issues is that everyone is so quick to say, after a successful suicide, "If only he'd gotten help / treatment", as if that always fixes things. Sometimes therapy and / or medication can make a world of difference. But I saw a lot of chronically mentally ill individuals over the years who'd had years of therapy, tried tons of medications, been hospitalized multiple times - and had very little quality of life because of their mental health issues. Treatment had failed them and they were suffering. (Btw, not everyone who commits suicide or seriously contemplates it is mentally ill or even depressed.)

        One of the things the attorney who wrote that article (which I strongly recommend you read as it really helps put some of the typical arguments in perspective) pointed out was the absurdity of someone who's suicidal being a "danger" to themselves (I don't recall exactly how he put it). It's their body, their life, and their personal right (an exception to this, IMO, would be someone who has been rightfully sentenced to prison for a crime - I don't believe they have the right to commit suicide to avoid their punishment).

        I hope that clears things up. Again, I don't believe it's ever okay for others (or society) to decide that someone's life (other than their own) isn't valuable or worth living.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

        Cali, first time I do not agree with you in a post of yours that I have read. While there are so many human ills, physical and mental where we have no cure, it causes me a lot of pain to know that others would consider suicide an available option.

        I've known people who did commit suicide, all were a horrible surprise. The whole problem when people can agree that or judge someone else's human life is not worth living is that it takes us down, and has taken us down, a very slippery slope. We've all seen the results of that mentality.

        Just how far is it going to go and extend itself? Should older people who are becoming a burden on their family be forced to off themselves because they aren't young and active anymore? Everyone with disabilities should be dispatched as well? Make someone angry and they get you on a list to be disposed?

        One does not need a religious background or practice to know human life is valuable. In fact, alternatively, there are religions that do not value human life.

        I think I can understand the frustration you see when mental or physical illness destroys someone's ability to think properly and they only want to end it. Because someone can no longer think clearly is no reason to give them the go ahead.

        We need to uphold standards for the next generation and all to come after them.
        Going from suicide to eugenics is a pretty large push to make. Not wanting to live and being murdered are two different animals completely.

        Look at your argument against suicide. It's all about how you feel about it. The person wanting to end their life doesn't give one rat about how you feel about it. They are concerned about being in a position they find unbearable and need out of. I'm sure you and I cannot relate to such a feeling -- but just because we can't relate doesn't mean that our feelings invalidate theirs.

        When you talk about murdering people who want to be here, you are on a whole different train of thought. I'm not even able to grok exactly how you made the jump between the two.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

      I'm going to play devil's advocate here (and probably stir up a ton of controversy in the process).

      Let me ask you something, Jex. Should people be expected and even forced to keep living (e.g. by being locked up on a psych ward) when they truly no longer want to live? Even those with "mental illness", which, quite frankly, can really make life miserable in spite of years - and even decades - of treatment (which, btw, isn't always very helpful)?

      Why should they have to keep on suffering? Because so many people are uncomfortable with the idea of suicide? Because some religions condemn it? Because they should be selfless, and continue in their pain or suffering for the sake of their selfish loved ones?

      I encourage you (and anyone else who reads this) to consider another perspective; one that flies in the face of religious dogma, the current mental health system and laws regarding suicide, and the arrogance of all those who think they have the right to dictate what's right (or wrong) for someone else's life. It's very well written (although the website format is unfortunate) and makes countless points that most people fail to ever consider (the link is below).

      Then tell me if you still firmly believe the guy you've referenced, who's offering those who truly want to die information on how to at least do it as peacefully and painlessly as possible, is really "preying on people". (I understand your perspective, but I'm aware of the site and don't agree with your assumption.)

      Here's a news flash: If someone really wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. You can only lock someone up on a psych ward for so long because they're suicidal. (And most patients eventually figure out what they need to say in order to get discharged - even if they don't really mean it.) You'd also be surprised how many people successfully commit suicide while in a locked, monitored psych unit.

      Suicide: A Civil Right

      You'd be surprised how many people who think seriously about suicide will choose to keep living if they know they have the option to end their life, as peacefully and painlessly as possible, when and if they reach that point. Just knowing they have a way out if needed quite often helps alleviate some of the despair and hopelessness, and may actually give them the strength to hang on a while longer.

      That's why I don't believe this guy's intention is to prey on anyone. I actually think his intentions are good, and that, ironically, what he offers will very likely save some lives - or, at the very least, give their loved ones some comfort in knowing their death was as painless and peaceful as possible. (Btw, I haven't seen the eBook and don't know what methods he discusses.)
      I didn't read the article you linked to but I don't believe suicide is a civil right but a natural born human right.
      My body belongs to me, only I have the right to it.
      Because of that I naturally have the right to decide if I live or die. Every day most people make an unconscious or conscious decision not to commit suicide. The main reason being to continue living. But every day some people make the decision not to continue living for whatever reason and commit suicide.
      When I die I would much rather it to be on my own terms and not on the terms of a disease or other outside force.
      I've had depression for many years, most times I control it but sometimes it controls me. I've thought about suicide many times, right down to different ways to do it. What has always stopped me is knowing it was the disease and not me that thought about suicide.
      So yes suicide is a right we all have, but like all rights it's up to the individual as to how they use it.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I didn't read the article you linked to but I don't believe suicide is a civil right but a natural born human right.
        My body belongs to me, only I have the right to it.
        Because of that I naturally have the right to decide if I live or die. Every day most people make an unconscious or conscious decision not to commit suicide. The main reason being to continue living. But every day some people make the decision not to continue living for whatever reason and commit suicide.
        When I die I would much rather it to be on my own terms and not on the terms of a disease or other outside force.
        I've had depression for many years, most times I control it but sometimes it controls me. I've thought about suicide many times, right down to different ways to do it. What has always stopped me is knowing it was the disease and not me that thought about suicide.
        So yes suicide is a right we all have, but like all rights it's up to the individual as to how they use it.
        Dying for this one, better have a lifetime guarantee?


        But on a more serious note, this guy says if he caught someone on a bridge he would tell them to do it!!!!!

        The funny thing about all of this is how do they know if things are going to stay the same or get better?

        Ending up a mangled mess at the bottom of a bridge, because you landed on some ground, (that does happen) and die in agony while the medics, sit back and watch is pretty much it.

        But what happens if you instead, went home, and the next day took action?

        Buy or rent or borrow, a laptop and learn how to do whatever?

        I personally believe that our emotions become so large that thinking rationally goes out the door, so much so, that we begin to think that emotionally thinking is rational!

        I know because l have been there, with being scammed a while ago, and driving back from Melb, airport, with the knowledge that l had been scammed, has hard to say the least.

        The easiest way out would have been for me to floor it on the freeway and find a brick wall to aim for?

        But it was financial, so common sense says that it can be overcome. My emotional side wanted to brick wall.

        This week l will be back to where l was before running it this creature, and thankfully a lot wiser!

        Maybe this idiot should read this before he wrote it, or test it out for himself?


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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I didn't read the article you linked to but I don't believe suicide is a civil right but a natural born human right.
        My body belongs to me, only I have the right to it.
        Because of that I naturally have the right to decide if I live or die. Every day most people make an unconscious or conscious decision not to commit suicide. The main reason being to continue living. But every day some people make the decision not to continue living for whatever reason and commit suicide.
        When I die I would much rather it to be on my own terms and not on the terms of a disease or other outside force.
        I've had depression for many years, most times I control it but sometimes it controls me. I've thought about suicide many times, right down to different ways to do it. What has always stopped me is knowing it was the disease and not me that thought about suicide.
        So yes suicide is a right we all have, but like all rights it's up to the individual as to how they use it.
        I remember when Robin Williams did it last year. Some of the comments were just ignorant..i.e he had so much to live for or why would someone so funny and full of humor do something so dark and drastic.

        If anyone has had real Clinical Depression they know why he did it. I know he had drug problems on top of it. But if you have ever had the real darkness of depression you know exactly why people like Robin Williams did it.

        As Cali and other have duly noted in the past, the Brain is an organ just like the kidneys and lungs are. When its sick why do we stigmatize people and tell them to just snap out of their "funk" and get happy and quit despairing.

        I can tell you why... because the symptoms of a sick brain are manifested in not just things like headaches, nausea but they are also manifested in things such as irrational thoughts, delusion, depression etc..etc.. These are real symptoms in of themselves. And they are many times totally uncontrollable !! No matter how strong willed you are or no matter how awesome your Life is.

        Telling someone to snap out of Clinical Depression is equivalent in telling someone with Renal Failure to just snap out of and move on with Life and quit despairing about a silly Renal problem

        People should wise up.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          I remember when Robin Williams did it last year. Some of the comments were just ignorant..i.e he had so much to live for or why would someone so funny and full of humor do something so dark and drastic.

          If anyone has had real Clinical Depression they know why he did it. I know he had drug problems on top of it. But if you have ever had the real darkness of depression you know exactly why people like Robin Williams did it.

          As Cali and other have duly noted in the past, the Brain is an organ just like the kidneys and lungs are. When its sick why do we stigmatize people and tell them to just snap out of their "funk" and get happy and quit despairing.

          I can tell you why... because the symptoms of a sick brain are manifested in not just things like headaches, nausea but they are also manifested in things such as irrational thoughts, delusion, depression etc..etc.. These are real symptoms in of themselves. And they are many times totally uncontrollable !! No matter how strong willed you are or no matter how awesome your Life is.

          Telling someone to snap out of Clinical Depression is equivalent in telling someone with Renal Failure to just snap out of and move on with Life and quit despairing about a silly Renal problem

          People should wise up.
          My standard reply to "just snap out of it" is to get real sarcastic and say something like "Why thank you I will. I did not think of that". (Cleaned up for a family forum)
          Depression is the most incredibly painful illness I've ever dealt with. It's a sneaky sumbitch. You can be sitting around feeling like a big old pile of worthless crap and somebody will stop in and you're the most cheerful person in the room. It can sneak up on you also. I've learned over the years to look for signs that I'm depressed. Sometimes I pick up on them right away and sometimes after I've gone to bed and reviewed the day, sometimes I don't pick up on them for a few days.
          As you can probably tell I think it's important to recognize what the problem is and to talk about it. For me if I'm talking about it, it means I'm aware of it and have it under control
          Even with that I can't say I know why Robin Williams took his own life. I could venture some good guesses but each person is different and do things for different reasons. If it was because of the depression I can understand.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I didn't read the article you linked to but I don't believe suicide is a civil right but a natural born human right.
        My body belongs to me, only I have the right to it.
        Because of that I naturally have the right to decide if I live or die.

        So yes suicide is a right we all have, but like all rights it's up to the individual as to how they use it.
        Thom, I haven't read the article in some time (it's quite long) but I'm pretty sure he addresses this (and agrees with it not just being a civil right, but a personal / human right).
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    • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
      Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

      Where I am from, there is an old law still on the books making suicide a criminal offense.... so if you commit suicide they can send you to jail ....
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

        Where I am from, there is an old law still on the books making suicide a criminal offense.... so if you commit suicide they can send you to jail ....
        Actually if you attempt suicide they'll send you to jail. If you commit suicide they will bury you
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        • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Actually if you attempt suicide they'll send you to jail. If you commit suicide they will bury you
          You missed the irony of what I was saying. Suicide is a "criminal offense" according to the law where I am from.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

            You missed the irony of what I was saying. Suicide is a "criminal offense" according to the law where I am from.
            Didn't miss it, just corrected it.
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            Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
            Getting old ain't for sissy's
            As you are I was, as I am you will be
            You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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          • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
            Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

            You missed the irony of what I was saying. Suicide is a "criminal offense" according to the law where I am from.
            If you really knew Thom, you'd know he didn't miss anything
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

            You missed the irony of what I was saying. Suicide is a "criminal offense" according to the law where I am from.
            About the dumbest most ironic law. Never could understand that.

            Society wants to punish someone who essentially is giving their own selves the ultimate punishment ( but I guess in their eyes it's the ultimate Peace)
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              About the dumbest most ironic law. Never could understand that.

              Society wants to punish someone who essentially is giving their own selves the ultimate punishment ( but I guess in their eyes it's the ultimate Peace)
              Actually it's primarily based on religions. With most religions it's considered a sin. The other reason is government control over your body. You may think you own your body (as I do) but the reality is you don't, they do.
              Where suicide is illegal the penalties are paid by family members.
              As I said before I didn't read the OP link but I got to wonder what legal ramification the author could face if someone where suicide or attempted suicide is illegal bought his book and did the deed. Would he be considered an accomplice?
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              Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
              Getting old ain't for sissy's
              As you are I was, as I am you will be
              You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

      Why should they have to keep on suffering? Because so many people are uncomfortable with the idea of suicide? Because some religions condemn it? Because they should be selfless, and continue in their pain or suffering for the sake of their selfish loved ones?
      If just one person visits the original site and commits suicide (when they wouldn't have done without that "advice." ) ...

      Then it's a complete disaster.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

        If just one person visits the original site and commits suicide (when they wouldn't have done without that "advice." ) ...

        Then it's a complete disaster.
        Maybe. Maybe they were going to it anyway and without the site would
        do suicide by cop that has a horrible impact on a lot of other families.
        Or, they would do an unsuccessful attempt that leaves them permanently
        brain damaged or maimed.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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          Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

          Maybe. Maybe they were going to it anyway and without the site..
          There's a percentage of people that are close to the edge (I have been suicidal several times) and something like that site would tip some of them over.
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

            There's a percentage of people that are close to the edge (I have been suicidal several times) and something like that site would tip some of them over.
            Yanno, in every herd, the Lions are gonna catch and eat a few. Darwin didn't invent the system, god did, yet we still call it Darwinism, and not godism. Dunno why really, as it is exactly as god intended it to be.

            Who are we to presume to interfere with the will of god? This one ain't made quite right, and he's not gonna make it. Whadda we do? I dunno, but god says "tiger food".

            Myself, I just don't wanna be standing too close when the ish goes down. My basic goal most days is just not to be the tiger food.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

        If just one person visits the original site and commits suicide (when they wouldn't have done without that "advice." ) ...

        Then it's a complete disaster.
        Jonathan, I encourage you to read the article I posted the link to earlier in the thread (I'm guessing you haven't).

        If someone chooses to die peacefully and painlessly on his or her own terms - especially if it ends years of suffering - I wouldn't call that "a complete disaster". The far greater disaster would be, as Dan mentioned above, the person choosing other methods that are either likely to fail (and sometimes with horrible consequences that make their life even worse, and death even more preferable) or are slow and very painful. Would that be better in your opinion? They're a vegetable, completely paralyzed, missing half their face, have 3rd degree burns over 80% of their body, or have to be fed via a tube for the rest of their life, but hey, they're alive...

        I don't know the methods described in the eBook, although I have a good idea as to at least 3 of the 4. If someone's searching online for suicide, they're likely to search for "painless" methods - and they don't need this eBook to find plenty of information. But even those "painless" options aren't "easy", and they usually require a fair amount of preparation and at least some expense. That, alone, will deter some people from choosing those particular options over others that are "easier" but more horrific.

        As I said earlier, you'd be very surprised how many people are able to keep living (who've thought a lot about suicide) because knowing they have an option to end their life (in a way that's peaceful and painless) actually makes life more bearable.

        Don't get me wrong here; I'm not "pro-suicide" and I would always want someone to find enough hope to keep living. But I am "pro-choice" and believe it's a personal - as well as civil - right (again, with some caveats and exceptions).
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    How come when a pet has a terminal disease the "humane" thing to do is to put it down, but it's inhumane to do the same thing to humans under the same circumstances?
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      How come when a pet has a terminal disease the "humane" thing to do is to put it down, but it's inhumane to do the same thing to humans under the same circumstances?
      Pets aren't humans.

      A person could have a cow as a pet, that same cow could just as easily be a steak dinner at Golden Corral.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Pets aren't humans.

        A person could have a cow as a pet, that same cow could be a steak dinner at Golden Corral.
        Then why call it "humane"?


        Why is it "humane" to stop a pet from suffering but not allowing a human that is suffering make a decision about their own life is OK?


        It isn't because a pet may be dinner. It's because of hypocrisy.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Then why call it "humane"?


          Why is it "humane" to stop a pet from suffering but not allowing a human that is suffering make a decision about their own life is OK?


          It isn't because a pet may be dinner. It's because of hypocrisy.

          Pets are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a dog or cat dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from the same day to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement puppy/kitten shows up.

          I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, more like priorities. Pulling the plug on a sick family member requires a little more thought than a cat or dog.
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Pets are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a dog or cat dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from the same day to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement puppy/kitten shows up.
            An you call me a baiter ?
            You're the master baiter LOL
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              An you call me a baiter ?
              You're the master baiter LOL
              I guess you're saying that because I'm not a kiss ass about animals just to please other forum members. Hi, I'm yukon, have we met?

              I don't want anything bad to happen to animals but at the same time I have enough common sense to know what's a priority & what's not. Example, steak sauce & sauteed mushrooms have a higher priority than cows.
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          • Profile picture of the author agc
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Pets are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a dog or cat dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from the same day to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement puppy/kitten shows up.

            I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, more like priorities. Pulling the plug on a sick family member requires a little more thought than a cat or dog.
            People are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a person dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from (although maybe not the same day) to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement person shows up.

            I wouldn't call it priorities, more like hypocrisy. Pulling the plug on a sick family member requires a lot more thought than a cat or dog, but ultimately people deserve compassion and the right to choose their own fate.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by agc View Post

              People are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a person dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from (although maybe not the same day) to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement person shows up.

              I wouldn't call it priorities, more like hypocrisy. Pulling the plug on a sick family member requires a lot more thought than a cat or dog, but ultimately people deserve compassion and the right to choose their own fate.



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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Pets are disposable, everyone knows it but few will admit it. If a dog or cat dies there's 10s/100s more to pick from the same day to make the replacement. Sure folks will shed a tear but they'll move on once the replacement puppy/kitten shows up.

            I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, more like priorities. Pulling the plug on a sick family member requires a little more thought than a cat or dog.
            You didn't answer my question.


            Despite your faulty premise that pets are "replaceable", it hasn't nothing to do with why we consider it "humane" to put pets to sleep when suffering, but not humans.


            How much "thought" goes into the decision also doesn't explain why one is called humane and the other isn't and is non-sequitur.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
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              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              You didn't answer my question.


              Despite your faulty premise that pets are "replaceable", it hasn't nothing to do with why we consider it "humane" to put pets to sleep when suffering, but not humans.


              How much "thought" goes into the decision also doesn't explain why one is called humane and the other isn't and is non-sequitur.

              I did answer your question, it just didn't satisfy your humans are evil agenda.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      How come when a pet has a terminal disease the "humane" thing to do is to put it down, but it's inhumane to do the same thing to humans under the same circumstances?
      An animal can't tell you that it would rather die. A human can.

      And (I know this will sting to some), we say it's the humane thing to do, when sometimes it's the least expensive option. Replacing a dog's hip, when it's old, toothless, and feeble.....is more than some people are willing to pay.

      So we call it humane to ease our guilt.

      And some people, when they are old, toothless, feeble, and totally dependent on others, just don't want to go.

      I didn't send for the information, but twenty dollars to find out how to end it cleanly, with no mess, and painlessly? Someday that may come in handy. And offering the information doesn't make someone want to commit suicide. I don't see the harm.

      Nobody bats an eye when someone sells information on how to use a weapon to kill someone else.

      And if the planet goes sideways, it's a better option (for me, anyway) than scrounging around in the dirt for food.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        And (I know this will sting to some), we say it's the humane thing to do, when sometimes it's the least expensive option. Replacing a dog's hip, when it's old, toothless, and feeble.....is more than some people are willing to pay.

        So we call it humane to ease our guilt.
        A more honest and if you think about it a more humane way to approach it ( as it applies to your
        family ) would be : "Honey we have to put Fido down because he is old and his hip replacement will cost 5K. And this is money we absolutely need for baby Jack and his recent medical bills."
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    If a person is severely depressed for long periods of time (or any number of other illnesses that may cause suicidal thoughts), many times society/government does decide that they aren't fit to drive a car, own a gun, raise their kids, or work in certain types of jobs.

    If people don't have those capabilities due to their mental state, how can they make a proper, informed, and rational decision about whether to commit suicide or not?

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      If a person is severely depressed for long periods of time (or any number of other illnesses that may cause suicidal thoughts), many times society/government does decide that they aren't fit to drive a car, own a gun, raise their kids, or work in certain types of jobs.

      If people don't have those capabilities due to their mental state, how can they make a proper, informed, and rational decision about whether to commit suicide or not?

      Mark
      With all of those the decision is made because you are considered a possible threat to other people.
      As for your second part, they can and they can't.
      They are the only ones that understand the pain they are going through. Keep in mind with some of these mental illnesses there is no cure. Also many times the drugs that are used to regulate the condition can take away as much of your life as the condition itself. If someone close to me wanted to commit suicide and I knew I would talk to them about it. But I would have to except their decision weather I liked it or not.
      Not believing in suicide doesn't change the fact that it is a natural right we all have over our body. If you believe you own your body you have that right, right or wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      If people don't have those capabilities due to their mental state, how can they make a proper, informed, and rational decision about whether to commit suicide or not?

      Mark
      Yep. That's a tough one.Ultimately it is that's person's decision if they are an adult.. Of course you want to try to talk about it with them ( I would at least) and seek a professional.

      But you cannot force someone to not do it

      To me that is even more absurd
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Selfishly, I had a spleen removed from a pet dog. It turned out to be cancer. She died a very
    painful death (something went on the inside) two days after the surgery because she should
    have been in a vet hospital for maybe another week or so. Also, you can't exactly tell a working
    breed dog they've had major surgery and need to take it easy for a week or so. I doubt I'll ever
    attempt major surgery on a pet again. I found out later that they have about a 50-50 chance of
    going fast after such surgery, or living an okay life for up to about two years. (I talked to three
    vets before the surgery and never really got a straight answer about what usually happens after
    a splenectomy. Did it anyway.)

    Overall, I'd say it's humane to put a pet down when it's time, or if you can't afford the treatment.
    The pet is likely suffering while the owner is trying to get the money together.

    I did adopt one cat when she was about 18 years old. Had to have her treated for urinary tract
    infections a few times, and spent about $400 to have an eye removed - the lens in her eye
    luxated (slid to the side) - and was likely very painful according to one vet. Internal swelling
    and pressure. A more predictable outcome than a splenectomy. She had a good life for
    another year or two. Purring away by my side whenever she could.

    When I have a Will, it will have a Do Not Resuscitate order and I do think I would like to go as
    painlessly as possible when the time comes, if I start dementia or Alzheimers, or develop other
    physical/mental impairments when I'm older. 55 now and in good health - I think I'd rather not
    sit around a nursing home if that were to become my life.

    A long time ago, I heard noises from a struggle outside my apartment. When I went to investigate,
    this guy was on the verge of throwing his girlfriend over the second floor railing. He set her down
    on the second floor and ran away when he saw me.

    She gave me a kiss on the cheek, but this thread has made me think about her life. I learned later
    that she was paranoid-schizophrenic and was almost always homeless, did some prostitution, and
    had a lot of episodes where she was screaming and talking to herself... She kissed me out of
    gratitude I suppose, but looking back and imagining her life on the streets: getting raped, beaten
    often, and what not...I can't say I would blame her if she wanted to end it all. Someday we'll have
    Star Trek level treatment and facilities, but until then...

    From the sales letter (he claims to have been suicidal and then committed because somebody intervened):

    "YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO FAIL !

    When I got out of there, I've decided to do my homework on effective suicide methods. I was looking for a quick and painless way of killing myself. When I found it, something interesting happened – instead of taking advantage of what I've found, I decided that since I have it available to me whenever I want, I can keep on living and deal with whatever issues I was dealing with at the time, knowing that I always have a way out whenever I choose. It gave me peace and comfort.

    Later I've found other suicidal people who have reached the same revelation."
    Same interesting perspective Ms. CaliCat offered. Also, reading between the lines, it's awful
    to imagine somebody failing at committing suicide but causing permanent brain damage and
    or disfigurement.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      "YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO FAIL !

      When I got out of there, I've decided to do my homework on effective suicide methods. I was looking for a quick and painless way of killing myself. When I found it, something interesting happened - instead of taking advantage of what I've found, I decided that since I have it available to me whenever I want, I can keep on living and deal with whatever issues I was dealing with at the time, knowing that I always have a way out whenever I choose. It gave me peace and comfort.

      Later I've found other suicidal people who have reached the same revelation."



      .
      I can relate to that. My depression was relatively mild for most of my life until sometime in my 40's. When it became severe I started thinking of ways to end my life. At that time I didn't really know that I had depression. I came up with a way to end it all. My next thought was, now I know how to end my life but what can I do to keep living. At the time I had a doctor I liked so I called his office to make an appointment for that day.
      I've never been the type of person to take the easy way out of anything. Knowing how easy it was to die gave me the motivation to do the hard thing, live.
      Once you learn how to end your life you find out if you really want to or not. The peace and comfort comes from knowing how but choosing not to.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    A lot of you will remember the lion, tiger and bear at the sanctuary. Some
    speculated that they would get along as long as there is food and then the
    survival instinct would take over.

    I think the same might happen to someone who tries to commit suicide
    and then realizes that they really do want to survive, to live.

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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

      I remember when Robin Williams did it last year. Some of the comments were just ignorant..i.e he had so much to live for or why would someone so funny and full of humor do something so dark and drastic.

      If anyone has had real Clinical Depression they know why he did it. I know he had drug problems on top of it. But if you have ever had the real darkness of depression you know exactly why people like Robin Williams did it.

      As Cali and other have duly noted in the past, the Brain is an organ just like the kidneys and lungs are. When its sick why do we stigmatize people and tell them to just snap out of their "funk" and get happy and quit despairing.

      I can tell you why... because the symptoms of a sick brain are manifested in not just things like headaches, nausea but they are also manifested in things such as irrational thoughts, delusion, depression etc..etc.. These are real symptoms in of themselves. And they are many times totally uncontrollable !! No matter how strong willed you are or no matter how awesome your Life is.

      Telling someone to snap out of Clinical Depression is equivalent in telling someone with Renal Failure to just snap out of and move on with Life and quit despairing about a silly Renal problem

      People should wise up.
      Hmmm, ok, it would be interesting to know how many would snap out of it, if they were given a million dollars?

      As for RW, he know that he had the early signs of Alzhemiers, and didn't want to end up a mess,...but did depression play a part probably?

      I doubt that many would logically or rationally knock themselves off, their emotions getting the better of them is more likely?

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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        Hmmm, ok, it would be interesting to know how many would snap out of it, if they were given a million dollars?
        Maybe I could be wrong ( and I apologize if I am) but I have a strong suspicion just based on this one sentence that you are the text book example of someone who has NOT directly experienced true Clinical Depression
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        • Profile picture of the author agc
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          Maybe I could be wrong ( and I apologize if I am) but I have a strong suspicion just based on this one sentence that you are the text book example of someone who has NOT directly experienced Clinical Depression
          Maybe the point could be that the ones who would snap out of it aren't actually depressed, rather they're lazy spoiled whiners?

          Dunno what he actually meant tho.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    I think at this point someone needs to point out that there is a huge difference between euthanasia and suicide.

    Euthanasia is a humane way of ending a life that is in terminal decline anyway. It can relieve the suffering of not only the patient, but also of those closest to them.

    Suicide is usually a surprise to the people closest to the perpetrator and has a devastating impact on their lives.

    I should add that I support euthanasia, and have been given strict instructions by both of my parents to "pull the plug" if they ever get to the point where they cannot function by themselves.. It would pain me to do it, but it would pain me a lot more to see them in a vegetative state.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      I think at this point someone needs to point out that there is a huge difference between euthanasia and suicide.

      Euthanasia is a humane way of ending a life that is in terminal decline anyway. It can relieve the suffering of not only the patient, but also of those closest to them.

      Suicide is usually a surprise to the people closest to the perpetrator and has a devastating impact on their lives.

      I should add that I support euthanasia, and have been given strict instructions by both of my parents to "pull the plug" if they ever get to the point where they cannot function by themselves.. It would pain me to do it, but it would pain me a lot more to see them in a vegetative state.
      In the US, "euthanasia" for humans is referred to as "assisted suicide". Euthanasia is when another person ends the life. Assisted suicide is when the person ends their own life, with the help of another.
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        In the US, "euthanasia" for humans is referred to as "assisted suicide". Euthanasia is when another person ends the life. Assisted suicide is when the person ends their own life, with the help of another.
        If we are going to get technical, euthanasia is where a person is no longer capable of functioning and someone else decides to pull the plug.

        Assisted suicide is where a person realises they are going to die and gets someone else to pull the plug for them.

        Suicide is where a person decides to kill themself.

        Euthanasia is not the same thing as assisted suicide.
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        • Profile picture of the author agc
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          Euthanasia is not the same thing as assisted suicide.
          In theory. In practice there are lots of questions that could be asked.

          For example: how much persuasion was involved, if any? How many alternatives were explored and to what degree? Etc Etc Etc.
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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Maybe I could be wrong ( and I apologize if I am) but I have a strong suspicion just based on this one sentence that you are the text book example of someone who has NOT directly experienced true Clinical Depression
            Hard to say, if clinical depression is seriously considering hitting a tree, at 135 kms, probably?

            But if it is letting your environment go to hell, and staying in bed all day, probably not!

            The thing about depression is if you back yard, and house is a pig sty is that going to help you not be depressed?

            I have walked into some peoples houses, and the dishes were just piled up, well everything was for that matter!

            I either wanted to clean it all up or leave, and this guy was depressed because he didn't have any friends or a relationship?

            Duh!

            Similar to some lifestyle shows on tv, where someone piles up stuff in their house, and someone else has to teach them how to clean something and bin it or store it!

            I mean apart from being trashy television, how much frickin effort does it take to pick up one thing in a full room and dust it, then put it into storage in a box?????


            Some of these scenarios must be staged, people cannot be this inept?

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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
              Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post


              I mean apart from being trashy television, how much frickin effort does it take to pick up one thing in a full room and dust it, then put it into storage in a box?????

              Some of these scenarios must be staged, people cannot be this inept?
              Yep you have no clue.

              Mark
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                Yep you have no clue.

                Mark
                Kind of reminded me before I had kids. Everyone kept saying just wait you will see how it will change you from the inside out. And how you r Life would be totally different etc..etc..

                I always said, yeah whatever. I won't change. It cannot be that big of a deal.

                Until it happened..then I was like " yeah I know what other people mean now "

                So it's not until you actually go through something can you even remotely relate or try to figure out.

                I don't fault Shane at all.

                Most of us are like this when it comes to certain things we have not experienced
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            • Profile picture of the author Cali16
              Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post


              The thing about depression is if you back yard, and house is a pig sty is that going to help you not be depressed?

              Similar to some lifestyle shows on tv, where someone piles up stuff in their house, and someone else has to teach them how to clean something and bin it or store it!

              Some of these scenarios must be staged, people cannot be this inept?
              Depression doesn't impact everyone in the exact same way, but low energy and fatigue are two very common traits. Apathy and lack of motivation to do much of anything are also very common. Many people who are severely depressed find it very difficult to get out of bed in the morning, let alone do the dishes and other household chores.

              According to the World Health Organization (WHO), depression is the leading cause of disability in the world. Symptoms of depression (like any disorder) can range (and fluctuate) from mild to severe.

              It's a very real illness. It's not about being "inept" (although it may appear to outsiders that a person with depression is inept or lazy).

              As for the TV shows about hoarding - that's a separate, but very real disorder. Until the most recent revision of the DSM (the diagnostic "bible" used by mental health professionals), compulsive hoarding was diagnosed under OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). Now it's listed as a separate disorder under "Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders". Not all hoarding meets the criteria for a mental health disorder - it depends largely on the severity and if it's interfering with other aspects of a person's life. However, it's not uncommon for individuals with OCD or hoarding disorder to also meet the criteria for major depression.

              I've never watched those hoarding shows, but it is certainly possible some (if not all) of the scenarios are staged (I don't know if they are, but I take all "reality TV" with a huge grain of salt).
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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              Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

              Hard to say, if clinical depression is seriously considering hitting a tree, at 135 kms, probably?

              But if it is letting your environment go to hell, and staying in bed all day, probably not!

              The thing about depression is if you back yard, and house is a pig sty is that going to help you not be depressed?

              I have walked into some peoples houses, and the dishes were just piled up, well everything was for that matter!

              I either wanted to clean it all up or leave, and this guy was depressed because he didn't have any friends or a relationship?

              Duh!

              Similar to some lifestyle shows on tv, where someone piles up stuff in their house, and someone else has to teach them how to clean something and bin it or store it!

              I mean apart from being trashy television, how much frickin effort does it take to pick up one thing in a full room and dust it, then put it into storage in a box?????

              Some of these scenarios must be staged, people cannot be this inept?

              You are mistaking bad housekeeping with clinical depression. Bad housekeeping may or may not be a part of clinical depression but has little to do with it either way.

              Some people live in pig styes and are quite happy to do so. It is a common symptom of clinical depression to feel as though you can barely make it out of bed for long periods of time, and they suffer from apathy or a lack of interest in people and things that used to interest them, so bad housekeeping would probably occur as a result of that.

              People who hoard are another mental illness entirely. Their hoarding may eventually cause them to be depressed, but hoarding isn't caused by depression.

              EDIT: I just saw your post Cali and it is similar to mine. I have watched quite a few of the hoarding shows and believe them to be real life victims of that mental illness. The mental health professionals on that show attempt to first get the hoarders to a point where they will allow a crew in there to haul the stuff away. That often proves to be the most difficult part of the process.

              Once they do that, the crews encounter rat crap, human urine and feces, in addition to stuff piled so high and dense that the hoarders are confined in their own homes to one small spot on a bed or couch that doesn't have stuff on it. The last one I saw, a worker fell through the urine saturated floor and the house was condemned.
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              • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                Yep you have no clue.

                Mark

                Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                Depression doesn't impact everyone in the exact same way, but low energy and fatigue are two very common traits. Apathy and lack of motivation to do much of anything are also very common. Many people who are severely depressed find it very difficult to get out of bed in the morning, let alone do the dishes and other household chores.

                According to the World Health Organization (WHO), depression is the leading cause of disability in the world. Symptoms of depression (like any disorder) can range (and fluctuate) from mild to severe.

                It's a very real illness. It's not about being "inept" (although it may appear to outsiders that a person with depression is inept or lazy).

                As for the TV shows about hoarding - that's a separate, but very real disorder. Until the most recent revision of the DSM (the diagnostic "bible" used by mental health professionals), compulsive hoarding was diagnosed under OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). Now it's listed as a separate disorder under "Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders". Not all hoarding meets the criteria for a mental health disorder - it depends largely on the severity and if it's interfering with other aspects of a person's life. However, it's not uncommon for individuals with OCD or hoarding disorder to also meet the criteria for major depression.

                I've never watched those hoarding shows, but it is certainly possible some (if not all) of the scenarios are staged (I don't know if they are, but I take all "reality TV" with a huge grain of salt).
                Ok, fair enough they can't get out of bed, or do anything, but unfortunately if your living environment is a mess, it will depress you more, at least subconsciously.


                No, clue,....some of these people don't have a condemned house, but they do stack up the crap in the rooms, so it becomes unusable.

                And l agree they uncover a deep rooted issue, that prevents them from cleaning.

                But seriously, even if they see Mount Everest, l am sure that a psychiatrist would suggest removing one thing, and putting it in storage, or the bin if it clearly is trash?

                But l also agree that it is low grade entertainment, that is usually on during the day or early night.

                I certainly know that if l had this issue, and a friend told a tv station and they offered me $1000 to make it worse for the cameras, or to act it up l probably would?

                I believe that the going rate to be on tv, is $1000?

                Yes, reality tv, big grain of salt!

                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                Kind of reminded me before I had kids. Everyone kept saying just wait you will see how it will change you from the inside out. And how you r Life would be totally different etc..etc..

                I always said, yeah whatever. I won't change. It cannot be that big of a deal.

                Until it happened..then I was like " yeah I know what other people mean now "

                So it's not until you actually go through something can you even remotely relate or try to figure out.

                I don't fault Shane at all.

                Most of us are like this when it comes to certain things we have not experienced
                Ok, thanks

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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                  Ok, fair enough they can't get out of bed, or do anything, but unfortunately if your living environment is a mess, it will depress you more, at least subconsciously.
                  You're attributing your views on housework to what others should be thinking and doing. Some people don't give a damn about housekeeping and are happy and not in the least bit depressed. I've met some that just don't care about housework or their environment. I've met those who thrive in a mess and would be at a loss in a neat, organized environment.

                  What depresses you does not depress everyone.
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                  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    You're attributing your views on housework to what others should be thinking and doing. Some people don't give a damn about housekeeping and are happy and not in the least bit depressed. I've met some that just don't care about housework or their environment. I've met those who thrive in a mess and would be at a loss in a neat, organized environment.

                    What depresses you does not depress everyone.
                    Yes, unfortunate but true, my Mothers neighbours, live in a mess,....backyard, overgrown with prickles, and 1 metre tall grass, junk here and there, and there gutters haven't been cleaned for at least 10 years, (more like grass in drain).

                    But they sink all of their efforts into cars, and their dog, which used to go for fencers when new years came around.

                    2 years ago, l had to tie their dog up after being spooked, eventhough the police carried on about private property, blah, blah, but l agree that it was a health risk, trying to get through all of their crap.

                    I agree that l don't get how people can live like that, and l suspect that they probably get ill more often than most.

                    Maybe it doesn't bother them but when they get down, l doubt that their mess with perk them up?

                    Certainly if they tried to succeed online, and treated their business like that, most likely they wouldn't get very far.

                    Hard to take someone seriously when their blog, looks like a 3 year old put it together?


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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                      Maybe it doesn't bother them but when they get down, l doubt that their mess with perk them up?


                      You just never know. Its weird I used to think that as human beings we were all alike more so than different... but as I have gotten older not so sure.

                      There are people I just cannot fathom for the life of me why they act the way they do.

                      Heck, I come on here and I realize that people are truly different in a lot of ways. The way they view fellow human beings and the way they behave with other people, for instance. Very intriguing to me and in some instances very disconcerting
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                      Yes, unfortunate but true, my Mothers neighbours, live in a mess,....backyard, overgrown with prickles, and 1 metre tall grass, junk here and there, and there gutters haven't been cleaned for at least 10 years, (more like grass in drain).

                      But they sink all of their efforts into cars, and their dog, which used to go for fencers when new years came around.

                      2 years ago, l had to tie their dog up after being spooked, eventhough the police carried on about private property, blah, blah, but l agree that it was a health risk, trying to get through all of their crap.

                      I agree that l don't get how people can live like that, and l suspect that they probably get ill more often than most.

                      Maybe it doesn't bother them but when they get down, l doubt that their mess with perk them up?

                      Certainly if they tried to succeed online, and treated their business like that, most likely they wouldn't get very far.

                      Hard to take someone seriously when their blog, looks like a 3 year old put it together?

                      Again, you're inserting your views on housework and yardwork on other people. As I said, they probably don't give a damn about housework or yardwork and put their efforts and time and money on things that matter to them ... not to you.

                      That you even care what other people do is odd to me. If I wanted to live in a pristine neighborhood, at least from outward appearances, I would live in a community with a home owner's association with tight rules and regulations on how people keep their yards up.

                      I do however, prefer to live in the country away from people.

                      As for your opinion that messy people aren't successful, that simply isn't true. My father is a pig in his gun shop and was even when young. He's a pig in the house too. But he was one of the country's top shooters, he was in the lead in his first profession, and he was one of the leading gunsmiths in the US for military rifles for match shooting.

                      I had a friend who was much worse than my father when it came to living conditions. I won't even describe how he lived, but he was a genius and very successful in his career.
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                      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                        Originally Posted by agc View Post

                        Yanno, in every herd, the Lions are gonna catch and eat a few. Darwin didn't invent the system, god did, yet we still call it Darwinism, and not godism. Dunno why really, as it is exactly as god intended it to be.

                        Who are we to presume to interfere with the will of god? This one ain't made quite right, and he's not gonna make it. Whadda we do? I dunno, but god says "tiger food".

                        Myself, I just don't wanna be standing too close when the ish goes down. My basic goal most days is just not to be the tiger food.
                        True, tiger food is a given, even necessary if balancing out Karma plays a part.

                        But also tearing up a contract, also plays a part, or if you end it before achieving certain lessons, then the typical tunnel of light, blah, blah, gets a bit darker.

                        And the prospect of getting off of this ferris wheel, is also several lifetimes distant.

                        But with the rest of eternity at our disposal, it obviously doesn't matter unless you understand the rules, although certain life goal carrots dangling forever in front of you, (with some 20 year olds, already eating theirs) it isn't easy!


                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        Again, you're inserting your views on housework and yardwork on other people. As I said, they probably don't give a damn about housework or yardwork and put their efforts and time and money on things that matter to them ... not to you.

                        That you even care what other people do is odd to me. If I wanted to live in a pristine neighborhood, at least from outward appearances, I would live in a community with a home owner's association with tight rules and regulations on how people keep their yards up.

                        I do however, prefer to live in the country away from people.

                        As for your opinion that messy people aren't successful, that simply isn't true. My father is a pig in his gun shop and was even when young. He's a pig in the house too. But he was one of the country's top shooters, he was in the lead in his first profession, and he was one of the leading gunsmiths in the US for military rifles for match shooting.

                        I had a friend who was much worse than my father when it came to living conditions. I won't even describe how he lived, but he was a genius and very successful in his career.
                        Ok, doesn't matter, although the one l knew, had an uphill battle making friends?

                        Care no, concern as to why, probably!

                        They should keep away from house cleaning businesses, though?

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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                          They should keep away from house cleaning businesses, though?
                          I can assure you that people who deplore housework do not go into housecleaning businesses. Personally, I deplore housework myself, but I also deplore living in filth, so force myself to do it.
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                          • Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            I can assure you that people who deplore housework do not go into housecleaning businesses. Personally, I deplore housework myself, but I also deplore living in filth, so force myself to do it.
                            Turns out the self-clean button on my apartment is Me-shaped.

                            Back to the suicide discussion...
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by agc View Post

            In theory. In practice there are lots of questions that could be asked.

            For example: how much persuasion was involved, if any? How many alternatives were explored and to what degree? Etc Etc Etc.
            Now you're getting into the whole reason that "assisted" suicide is such a scary issue. At what point do those who are allowed to give the okay going to become corrupted and just "do" people without them requesting? I'm thinking that's what April's issue was with bringing eugenics into the conversation.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          If we are going to get technical, euthanasia is where a person is no longer capable of functioning and someone else decides to pull the plug.

          Assisted suicide is where a person realises they are going to die and gets someone else to pull the plug for them.

          Suicide is where a person decides to kill themself.

          Euthanasia is not the same thing as assisted suicide.

          I put "euthanasia" in quotes in my previous post, as its use in my example wasn't technically accurate. I went on to say "Euthanasia is when another person ends the life" and I think the context of my post was pretty clear and I pointed out the differences.


          Plus, euthanasia isn't only done to people.


          Assisted suicide is a form of suicide, which is defined as intentionally killing one's self. But no, assisted suicide isn't where someone else "pulls the plug for them". It's when they pull the plug themselves. Someone else just puts the "plug" in their hand.


          From a technical point of view, this is a huge difference. Pulling someone else's plug could very well be considered murder. Although, assisted suicide has similar legal issues. But this is starting to change in a state or two in the US.


          Where's Dr. Kevorkian when you need him?
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I've suffered from acute clinical depression in the past and thought about suicide. I'm glad that my shrink found another option and I no longer considered it.

    I knew a 17 year old kid whose father remarried after a divorce and his mother did too and neither of them wanted to be bothered with him much anymore. He was using drugs and on his own and lost his license to drive. With no support network from family and professionals, he opted to commit suicide.

    If only I had known, I would have become his family and provided the support he needed. Such a waste. I really liked that kid and he could have overcome his current problems and gone on to have a great life.

    Do people have a right to kill themselves. Sure. But there are a lot of suicides that don't need to happen. There's no lifelong pain or disability or disease ... just a feeling of being overwhelmed by life's circumstances.
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    • Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Do people have a right to kill themselves. Sure. But there are a lot of suicides that don't need to happen. There's no lifelong pain or disability or disease ... just a feeling of being overwhelmed by life's circumstances.
      I don't figure on endin' it all any time soon, but I know that may not last, an' any rule we fix up gotta work for everyone.

      Way I see it, there are 3 problems:

      1) Vulnerable people are by definition vulnerable. If they say they wanna kill themselves an' give permission for it to happen, that might not actually be the truth. I see this is especially the case for the elderly, but it could apply equally to anyone who can be manipulated. So 1st problem to solve is: is the desire to die for real?

      2) Circumstances an' moods change. In any kinda hollow, you might figure you gonna be trapped there forever. If it feels so bad an' hopeless, it's gotta be true, an' any sense of happier times, or wisdom about the inconsistency of mood an' circumstance, gonna be obliterated. We all got real low moments, an' if we survived 'em then we know they don't last forever. This prolly don't apply to the terminally ill (an' sentient) who have the courage to decide their own fate based on a clear cut either/or, but I would be concerned that some people who might otherwise have stuck it out gonna be tempted to quit too soon. So, 2nd problem is: is the desire to die fully an' accurately realised?

      3) Then we gotta figure to what extent freedom to choose extends to freedom of method used. Limited means might not suit evryone, 'specially those who really do wanna throw themselves from a buildin'. An' how do you protect doctors an' loved ones who are complicit in whatever is the deal? So, problem 3 is: how's it all gonna happen? If problem 1 is the hidden minefield, problem 3 is the more expansive array of legal incendiaries.

      Mosta the moral issues for me figure on thinkin' around those sorta questions, gettin' it right so the brute clarity of the decision ("I wanna die") resolves without fuzzied edges.

      I do not believe it is moral to keep anyone alive who is sufferin', despairin', terminally ill an' alla the rest just because there is a rule that says you cannot do otherwise.

      Seems to me, that rule is bein' invited to justify itself.

      I figure we are headin' in a euthanasia direction, but that don't mean anythin' can be rushed.

      Mean time, advances in medicine may tip the decision back the other way.

      We minimise somea the clinical conditions associated with suicide — depression, illness — an' we may figure it is in our interests always to seek solutions based on keepin' folks alive.

      That is my partial take on what is a colossal subject.

      I am gonna go fill my face with pizza now cos I have eaten f*ck all for 2 days.

      While Pixie Lott was busy havin' her ribs removed, minea been pokin' out from under my kimono like spare spines on a frickin' porcupine. mleh.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    This is certainly NOT the first such book. I bet their return rate MAY be high. I don't know what THEIR book is like, but a lot of the simpler ways to commit suicide are now ILLEGAL! WHY? Because a lot of people used them! IRONIC that you should talk about THEM sleeping soundly, because one of the preferred ways used to be SLEEPING PILLS! Unfortunately, now, in the US, you can't get them without a prescription.

    As for guns? WHO would want to commit suicide with a gun? It is messy, leaves bad questions, and you could end up living a long life far worse off than you dreamed.

    Speaking of that, some KNOW they can't pull it off, so they have ANOTHER do it! There are FOUR ways to do this!

    1. Have a person PAID to do it! ILLEGAL, and unlikely, but ever hear of kevorkian? If not, here is a link! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian

    2. Have a "friend" do it. YEAH RIGHT! Some friend YOU are!

    3. LUCK. SURE, HOW?

    4. Encourage one to do it "legally". The most popular way? Well, they have a name for it that spells it out! SUICIDE BY COP! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

    BTW only the curious, murders that might think there is a hint to how THEY can kill another, and SUICIDAL people, will get the book.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      BTW only the curious, murders that might think there is a hint to how THEY can kill another, and SUICIDAL people, will get the book. Steve
      This is why I make the OT my first stop every morning. If I were suicidal I would read crap like this and laugh so hard that my serotonin levels would be off the charts, forcing me to actually forget that I was feeling suicidal in the first place.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

        I don't figure on endin' it all any time soon, but I know that may not last, an' any rule we fix up gotta work for everyone.

        Way I see it, there are 3 problems:

        1) Vulnerable people are by definition vulnerable. If they say they wanna kill themselves an' give permission for it to happen, that might not actually be the truth. I see this is especially the case for the elderly, but it could apply equally to anyone who can be manipulated. So 1st problem to solve is: is the desire to die for real?

        2) Circumstances an' moods change. In any kinda hollow, you might figure you gonna be trapped there forever. If it feels so bad an' hopeless, it's gotta be true, an' any sense of happier times, or wisdom about the inconsistency of mood an' circumstance, gonna be obliterated. We all got real low moments, an' if we survived 'em then we know they don't last forever. This prolly don't apply to the terminally ill (an' sentient) who have the courage to decide their own fate based on a clear cut either/or, but I would be concerned that some people who might otherwise have stuck it out gonna be tempted to quit too soon. So, 2nd problem is: is the desire to die fully an' accurately realised?

        3) Then we gotta figure to what extent freedom to choose extends to freedom of method used. Limited means might not suit evryone, 'specially those who really do wanna throw themselves from a buildin'. An' how do you protect doctors an' loved ones who are complicit in whatever is the deal? So, problem 3 is: how's it all gonna happen? If problem 1 is the hidden minefield, problem 3 is the more expansive array of legal incendiaries.

        Mosta the moral issues for me figure on thinkin' around those sorta questions, gettin' it right so the brute clarity of the decision ("I wanna die") resolves without fuzzied edges.

        I do not believe it is moral to keep anyone alive who is sufferin', despairin', terminally ill an' alla the rest just because there is a rule that says you cannot do otherwise.

        Seems to me, that rule is bein' invited to justify itself.

        I figure we are headin' in a euthanasia direction, but that don't mean anythin' can be rushed.

        Mean time, advances in medicine may tip the decision back the other way.

        We minimise somea the clinical conditions associated with suicide -- depression, illness -- an' we may figure it is in our interests always to seek solutions based on keepin' folks alive.

        That is my partial take on what is a colossal subject.

        I am gonna go fill my face with pizza now cos I have eaten f*ck all for 2 days.

        While Pixie Lott was busy havin' her ribs removed, minea been pokin' out from under my kimono like spare spines on a frickin' porcupine. mleh.
        Yes, that is the rub, sometimes when things are at their worst something positive happens, (been the case with me several times, and certainly may make some nervous, that the sandbox has unseen rules).

        Imaging if the guy that wrote Pilgrims Progress, one of the greatest books ever written, threw himself off the back of the steamship, no book or success?

        Life DOES have a pattern of suicide on my resume, kind of events, most have a positive ending, and unfortunately some don't seem to have and end to them?

        I suppose that since some things refuse to have a positive outcome, that life just sucks in some ways, but other things have enough control to get something good from it over time?

        Obviously 20+ year old celebrities, with everything at their fingertips, may make you consider starting a gun collection, but there are always individuals like that.

        And always plenty more, that will go in Twitter, with their, well colorful advise.


        Yes if you see dotted lines on wrists seek professional help!

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  • Profile picture of the author GJW123
    No ethics, no shame !
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  • Profile picture of the author jex1
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  • Profile picture of the author ishantech1993
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I think that sales page selling an ebook of unknown quality is predatory to the max, preying on vulnerable people for profit. The seller doesn't tout any mental health qualifications or medical qualifications and there are no disclaimers on the site or warnings, whatsoever. The advice he is giving, given his lack of credentials, may even be criminal. Some of us have seen other IMers go to jail for selling medical advice without credentials to do so. This is no different.

    If the potential customer went to a mental health professional or a doctor, all options would be explored before coming to a decision that nothing was improving the quality of the patient's life. No pre-screening is being done, not for age of the patient or treatability of the prospects problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Look at some of the reasons he cites for suicide:

    If you are reading this, chances are that you are suffering from one or more of these:
    • Depression, hopelessness and/or lack of interest in activities that were previously pleasurable.
    • Alcohol or substance-abuse
    • Relationship difficulties
    • Physical, emotional or sexual abuse
    • Financial stress
    • Health problems ( Perhaps extreme pain or a terminal illness ? )
    • Legal problems
    • Social deprivation
    • You have tried to commit suicide and failed
    Most of those are really lame reasons to commit suicide and most are treatable or will/can pass over time.



    In addition, he says this qualifies him to give this advice in his ebook:


    You may only get one chance to end your life. If you do decide to end it, then you must inform yourself first and make sure you don't end up trapped inside your own body in excruciating pain for years or even decades.
    I cannot stress that enough !
    You might ask what qualifies me to write about suicide ?
    Well, like many others who have wanted to end a life of misery and suffering, I too, tried to take my own life. I had it all planned – the suicide method, the date, the location... everything. I had already written a suicide note and printed a list of people who should be notified of my death.
    But I made one mistake – I told a person that I should not have told, and the next thing I know – the police came to my home, confiscated my shotgun and locked me up in a mental health hospital against my will with no contact with the outside world.
    It didn't even matter to the cops that I told them I was not suicidal.
    And yet, he is indeed still around to profit from giving advice to people on how to kill themselves. Apparently, he wasn't all that serious about it himself. I would suggest to him that he follow his own advice, read his own ebook, and just freaking do it. Kill himself.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      And yet, he is indeed still around to profit from giving advice to people on how to kill themselves. Apparently, he wasn't all that serious about it himself. I would suggest to him that he follow his own advice, read his own ebook, and just freaking do it. Kill himself.
      Suzanne. So.....you're suggesting that someone kill themselves?

      The guy selling the information is suggesting how to do it, but you are actually suggesting that someone do it?

      Isn't that silly?
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Suzanne. So.....you're suggesting that someone kill themselves?

        The guy selling the information is suggesting how to do it, but you are actually suggesting that someone do it?

        Isn't that silly?
        Silly? Not really. He said he wanted to commit suicide so it's not my suggestion. It's his wish. He failed. I'm simply suggesting that he read his own ebook and follow the suggestions it in.

        This guy is selling this info to anyone who will buy it. Could be a 15 year old having a bad day. Could be a teen that was just dumped by a girl/boy friend and thinks it's the end of the world. Could be, as he suggested in his list, someone having financial or relationship problems or simply a bad hair day, situations that are often temporary. Look at his list again. He even mentions ... you have tried suicide but failed.

        • Depression, hopelessness and/or lack of interest in activities that were previously pleasurable.
        • Alcohol or substance-abuse
        • Relationship difficulties
        • Physical, emotional or sexual abuse
        • Financial stress
        • Health problems ( Perhaps extreme pain or a terminal illness ? )
        • Legal problems
        • Social deprivation
        • You have tried to commit suicide and failed
        Depression is treatable. So is alcohol and drug abuse, relationship difficulties ... who hasn't had them? Physical, emotional, sexual abuse? Come on. That's what therapists and law enforcement are for. Legal problems? That's a good reason to commit suicide? Social deprivation? Get out of the house more.

        There's no pre-screening to avoid a suicide when a suicide would not really be indicated ...
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Silly? Not really. He said he wanted to commit suicide so it's not my suggestion. It's his wish. He failed. I'm simply suggesting that he read his own ebook and follow the suggestions it in.

          This guy is selling this info to anyone who will buy it. Could be a 15 year old having a bad day. Could be a teen that was just dumped by a girl/boy friend and thinks it's the end of the world. Could be, as he suggested in his list, someone having financial or relationship problems or simply a bad hair day, situations that are often temporary.

          There's no pre-screening to avoid a suicide when a suicide would not really be indicated ...
          Suzanne.

          I was mostly kidding....about suicide.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            But you know what? I'd like to know a painless and un-messy way to get it done.
            Honestly, I don't think that anyone actually cares that you desire to find a way for it to be painless and un-messy - as long as you get it done, ASAP!

            Happy holidays!

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              Honestly, I don't think that anyone actually cares that you desire to find a way for it to be painless and un-messy - as long as you get it done, ASAP!
              Or he could easily outsource the task by placing a WSO (Warrior Suicide Offer).

              .
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                Or he could easily outsource the task by placing a WSO (Warrior Suicide Offer).

                .

                He could auction it off and give the vast proceeds to charity.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              But you know what? I'd like to know a painless and un-messy way to get it done.
              Try this my friend

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              Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Suzanne.

            I was mostly kidding....about suicide.
            I see. lol. Did you also edit your post. Frank's post indicates that you may have.

            Regarding a painless method ... who really knows it's painless until they've done it.

            As I mentioned, I thought about suicide before when I suffered from clinical depression. My vision of the perfect painless and not messy suicide was a Marilyn Monroe suicide (although hers may have been an assisted suicide).

            But then I got to thinking what a heavy dose of a barbituate or opiate does ... and I thought maybe your ability to breathe decreases as the drug slows down your bodily functions so that you quietly and neatly suffocate. Suffocation I don't believe is exactly painless and not really fast either. It takes minutes to suffocate ... no seconds, but whole minutes.

            My mother died of lung cancer. The way she died was suffocation. She simply lost the ability to take a breath. Her death appeared to be quite painful and took about 5 minutes of horror.

            So really, I don't think there are many who are in a position to tell people that a method is painless.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              I see. lol. Did you also edit your post. Frank's post indicates that you may have.

              Regarding a painless method ... who really knows it's painless until they've done it.

              As I mentioned, I thought about suicide before when I suffered from clinical depression. My vision of the perfect painless and not messy suicide was a Marilyn Monroe suicide (although hers may have been an assisted suicide).

              But then I got to thinking what a heavy dose of a barbituate or opiate does ... and I thought maybe your ability to breathe decreases as the drug slows down your bodily functions so that you quietly and neatly suffocate. Suffocation I don't believe is exactly painless and not really fast either. It takes minutes to suffocate ... no seconds, but whole minutes.
              Suzanne;

              I'm truly sorry about your Mother.

              I don't think I edited that post.

              If you take a heavy dose of barbiturates, you are likely to throw up. You'll be unconscious, so it won't bother you. But there will be a mess to clean up.

              And if you throw up, before enough has been absorbed, you'll be very very very sick.

              I speak from experience.

              My thought was to minimize the horror to loved ones, when they find the body, and to minimize the mess to clean up. I assumed a huge injection of Morphine would do it.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                My thought was to minimize the horror to loved ones, when they find the body, and to minimize the mess to clean up. I assumed a huge injection of Morphine would do it.
                I also thought a huge dose of morphine or perhaps heroin would do it and that's when I went to the thought about suffocation, because both morphine and heroin do slow down the body processes, and I assume also breathing, so I wondered exactly how do you die from an overdose of an opiate? Suffocation from simply lungs shutting down so much that you can't breathe? I know that drug overdose isn't exactly a quick method of suicide.

                Anyway ... this is a really morbid turn in the conversation.
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                • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                  Suicide. Everybody has their own way.


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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                    Suicide. Everybody has their own way.
                    True. When I decide it's time I'm going with prime rib, loaded baked potatoes, creamed spinach and a 55 gallon drum of Yuengling.

                    Cheers. - Frank

                    P.S. I also keep a couple hundred Vicodin in the gun safe for dessert.
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      When you go I'm going to have prime rib, loaded baked potatoes, creamed spinach and a 55 gallon drum of Yuengling.
                      Fixed that for you
                      Signature

                      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Fixed that for you
                        Nice one. lol

                        Cheers. - Frank
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                      True. When I decide it's time I'm going with prime rib, loaded baked potatoes, creamed spinach and a 55 gallon drum of Yuengling.

                      Cheers. - Frank

                      P.S. I also keep a couple hundred Vicodin in the gun safe for dessert.
                      I'll pay for the Prime Rib. Anyone else want to contribute?
                      Signature
                      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

                      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
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                      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        I'll pay for the Prime Rib. Anyone else want to contribute?
                        You have my PayPal addy.

                        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Depression is treatable. So is alcohol and drug abuse, relationship difficulties ... who hasn't had them? Physical, emotional, sexual abuse? Come on. That's what therapists and law enforcement are for. Legal problems? That's a good reason to commit suicide? Social deprivation? Get out of the house more.

          There's no pre-screening to avoid a suicide when a suicide would not really be indicated ...
          Suzanne, I respect your opinion a lot. But I have to say, depression doesn't always respond to treatment (and that's true of other disorders as well). Treatment resistant depression is a very real thing. Plus, with chronic depression, as well as other chronic mental and physical health disorders, there's a domino effect. The health issues impact the ability to work and keep a job, relationships are adversely affected - and when multiple situational factors weigh down on a person, "fixing" them can become literally impossible, especially if finances are severely limited, which means resources just aren't available.

          The mental health system fails miserably - quite often. And so do other systems, such as law enforcement. One of the things that started burning me out was seeing so many people who needed help but couldn't get the help they needed because of a lack of resources - that's a huge problem all across the country. At best, they were just getting band-aids and nothing more. Not to mention, tons of people fall through the cracks of the "system".

          Things don't always get better, and sometimes they do just continue to get worse. Even if there is a "fix" for a problem, that doesn't mean it's available to everyone. Some health issues progressively get worse not matter what. Chronic pain is a very real thing - and plays a role in many suicides.

          You had depression and treatment worked very well for you. But unfortunately, that' not everyone's story - not by a long shot.

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I also thought a huge dose of morphine or perhaps heroin would do it and that's when I went to the thought about suffocation, because both morphine and heroin do slow down the body processes, and I assume also breathing, so I wondered exactly how do you die from an overdose of an opiate? Suffocation from simply lungs shutting down so much that you can't breathe? I know that drug overdose isn't exactly a quick method of suicide.
          Just to clarify - opioids are central nervous system depressants, so a lethal overdose slows down heart rate, respiration, and other bodily functions. You'd slip into unconsciousness and then die (if there's no intervention). You don't suffocate. Barbiturates are also CNS depressants, which is why these types of drugs do provide a painless death. It's as if you just fall asleep and die. It's about as painless and peaceful as it gets.

          Barbiturates are the lethal drugs used in physician-assisted suicide, at least here in Oregon.
          Signature
          If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            Suzanne, I respect your opinion a lot. But I have to say, depression doesn't always respond to treatment (and that's true of other disorders as well). Treatment resistant depression is a very real thing. Plus, with chronic depression, as well as other chronic mental and physical health disorders, there's a domino effect. The health issues impact the ability to work and keep a job, relationships are adversely affected - and when multiple situational factors weigh down on a person, "fixing" them can become literally impossible, especially if finances are severely limited, which means resources just aren't available.

            The mental health system fails miserably - quite often.
            Cali, I'm aware that a lot of people have long term, severe problems that are overwhelming and may want an end to it. As for my own depression and the cure ... I have always been depressed. I've accepted a level of depression all my life as part of my basic makeup. The time that it became acute was when clinical depression combined with situational depression to become acute. That's when I sought help and as soon as I returned to my normal depressed self, I quit Prozac. Living with a level of depression is just part of who I am ... some think snarky, sarcastic, but in reality, much of what I feel about most things is apathy. My children, grandchildren, my dogs, and fishing move me. Not much else really does. I'm not a psychopath who can't feel empathy, but just don't give a damn about much. I like to debate issues as much as the next one, but when it comes down to it, I take care of my own and realize that it's not worth much effort trying to cure other people's problems.

            What I was addressing was some charlatan with a sales page suggesting that financial, relationship, health, legal, drug/alcohol abuse, depression, relationship problems are all reasons to commit suicide ... and he has zero credentials in the mental health or medical field. Anyone can buy his book who has the money, including teens, who tend to take everything a great deal more seriously than it really is. And there's no reason to believe that he actually has or knows of surefire methods of painless and certain death by suicide. After all, he claims to be a failed suicide himself, so his methods aren't proven or endorsed by a person with a medical background.

            I think his sales page is reprehensible and possibly criminal, particularly if it resulted in the death of an underage person. He has no morals. Only a desire to profit from vulnerable people with overwhelming problems, or problems that only really seem overwhelming at the time.

            For some of the problems that he mentions, there are free resources and support and some of the problems are often "cured" by time, such as a bad relationship problem.

            He's nothing more than some guy out to make a buck from other's misery and I feel that anyone who really cared about these people would first direct them to resources rather than a book on how to kill themselves. He has no clue who is buying that ebook or whether or not they could actually be helped.
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            • Profile picture of the author sconer
              There are so many different levels of being suicidal that arguments simply can't be made across the board.

              On one side of the spectrum is the stereotypical teenage girl angst. Suicidal one day, then a couple years later a perfectly normal and happy person who laughs to herself how insignificant her issues were and how easily she can cope with them now.

              On the other end of the spectrum you have the terminally ill people in serious agony, like the ones that Kevorkian helped. People who are going to die soon anyway, but would rather get the pain and suffering over with and die in a way that they feel is more dignified.
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              • Profile picture of the author ksummers
                I have psychotic depression. I was classed as treatment resistant, was in and out of psychiatric hospitals, and attempted suicide twice nearly succeeding the second time.

                Back then I would have defended the individuals right to suicide. I had no hope and was living a miserable existence.

                Then I had ECT. And whie I'm not cured exactly, I have hope, can look forward to things again and am happy to be alive.

                Now I can still empathise with people who want to commit suicide but I absolutely condemn this attempt to make money off desperately vulnerable people.

                You just aren't thinking straight in that position.

                Depression can be managed if not cured. There are advances in medication and things like tanscranial magnetic resonance. It's not a hopeless situation even if it feels like it.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Suzanne. So.....you're suggesting that someone kill themselves?

        The guy selling the information is suggesting how to do it, but you are actually suggesting that someone do it?

        Isn't that silly?
        No, he could still channel the information?


        Yeah, l know, l should go back to patting my fluffy bunny?

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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    LOL

    Too incompetent to do his own job right, but, hey, pay him and he'll tell you exactly how to do your job right.

    In my business, we want to see you get your job right before we even think of hiring you to do ours. Let's see the proof you know your business.
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