Simple Question....Are You In or Out with the WF ??

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They say we are Dead Men Walking here !!

They say all the good people from the glory days of Warrior Forum are all deserted now!!

They say Traffic has dwindled to levels that all this will soon be a collapsed ghost town

They say that all we have left here at Warrior Forum is a bunch of inept Marketers and penniless non- english speaking newbies and a flawed Ownership

They say we are just plain doomed here along with the Owners


You know what I say ??

I say bullshit to all of it.( Sorry Mods I'm spelling that one out without any bleeps, feel free to edit or delete)

What I see is a small but very capable, very committed , very successful group of Marketers.

I have been on a cross country vacation the last three weeks covering 3,500 mles in 10 states. But I have occasionally peeked in the last few weeks and honestly Iam seeing some promising things.

Some of the Admin. and Mods are really stepping up. And seriously , Iam really seeing some impressive things occurring that I haven't seen in over 2 years. Thank you, guys !!

Also, I'm observing a few of the old timers really stir up some great and helpful discussion.And some relative Newbies who are contributing beyond their years

And make no mistake this is no superficial rah rah go team go cheerleading BS. This is some real stuff coming to the surface.

Unfortunately, there is a group of individuals who really want to see this place burn to the ground. There is no denying that.

But in my 48 years of Life I have seen some of the most incredible obstacles overcome and seen some of the most incredible things accomplished by...... drumroll please....a small but very capable, very committed , very determined group of People.


So how about it..you in ??
Iam !!


- Robert Andrew
  • Profile picture of the author 1nspire
    Well said. The forum went through some changes but there is still many good peoples here.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    I think someone is living in a dream world.
    It's a cross between an article directory and a childrens playground.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    In or out? Probably a bit of both.

    Although newbies that can string a sentence together and better smileys, would make me dip another tie in.

    But this forum has minimal troll issues now, so, l may post something interesting eventually.

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  • Profile picture of the author markxey
    Definitely IN Let's do this boys!
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    I hope for my sake it goes on lol , but the main problem is there are not enough Mods on the forum so the Troll gets away with what ever and nothing is done about it

    Rob I respect what you are trying to asked of all of us but there are only enough hours in a day and not all can answer the same question all the time or give advice not enough experienced Warriors about now

    I guess it will be a wait and see

    Jason
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

      I hope for my sake it goes on lol , but the main problem is there are not enough Mods on the forum so the Troll gets away with what ever and nothing is done about it

      Don I respect what you are trying to asked of all of us but there are only enough hours in a day and not all can answer the same question all the time or give advice not enough experienced Warriors about now

      I guess it will be a wait and see

      Jason
      Hmmm, l am glad Discrat, removed that one, or the mods did, it would only bounce around the forums, and probably not in a good way.

      Although some of the remarks were pretty funny, about language barriers, and helping the mods.

      We have tried to offer suggestions for years, and l personally ain't going to come here, and use Google translate, to figure out what someone is saying, that isn't what l call entertaining.


      Troll, gets away with anything, not really, from what l have recently seen, they don't allow all out uncensored swearing here, so that is one plus.

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        Hmmm, l am glad Discrat, removed that one, or the mods did, it would only bounce around the forums, and probably not in a good way.

        Although some of the remarks were pretty funny, about language barriers, and helping the mods.

        We have tried to offer suggestions for years, and l personally ain't going to come here, and use Google translate, to figure out what someone is saying, that isn't what l call entertaining.
        Speaking of which theres a post this morning in the main forum entirely in Chinese (I think). I am watching it with amusement since another Wf member claimed not allowing non english speakers to post in an English forum was discrimination.

        I just want to see if the poor guy/gal is discriminated against .....rofl...and if not how a meaningful conversation arises out of it. Either way my amusement is guaranteed! (even if it might be spam I'll wonder - How do we know? and still be amused)
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Speaking of which theres a post this morning in the main forum entirely in Chinese (I think). I am watching it with amusement since another Wf member claimed not allowing non english speakers to post in an English forum was discrimination.

          I just want to see if the poor guy/gal is discriminated against .....rofl...and if not how a meaningful conversation arises out of it. Either way my amusement is guaranteed! (even if it might be spam I'll wonder - How do we know? and still be amused)
          Discrimination, groan, no just frickin annoying.

          Maybe we should have this forum in all languages, so we don't discriminate against one ethnic minority.

          This sort of argument gets pretty stupid, pretty quickly.

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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Discrimination, groan, no just frickin annoying.

            Maybe we should have this forum in all languages, so we don't discriminate against one ethnic minority.
            well you could use google translate like you said but when its someone trying to speak in english that you cannot understand because what they are typing is not English then GT is not even an option.

            and yes agreed its all very silly to claim communicating in a shared language as a basis for meaningful exchanges is discrimination but as they say - common sense isn't really that common.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    I am definitely in!

    building my own business and helping a few people who I think are worthy of being helped but a mission to save a corporation's property that I own no stock in? Nope. Life is too short to climb mountains I have no deep connections to and achieve nothing for mankind climbing.

    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Unfortunately, there is a group of individuals who really want to see this place burn to the ground. There is no denying that.
    True... the other extreme.

    But in my 48 years of Life I have seen some of the most incredible obstacles overcome and seen some of the most incredible things accomplished by...... drumroll please....a small but very capable, very committed , very determined
    Don't know the Gipper, Gipper doesn't know me or care about me. my community or anyone I know so feel no need to win one for him. Its a great speech that does work in some situations but wouldn't work enlisting people to save Microsoft's windows phone market share or Google's Google+ either

    Its a forum owned by someone else I will post to and share on and certainly not rip non stop on their own site but I'll save the drum roll and the rah rah for something else

    not saving a corporation's forum
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I've seen improvements recently and hope that's a sign of the future.

    I do think there's to much paid posting here. Some may be for money - some for ratings on Freelancer. At least FL has stopped ignoring and is trying some new things and that's good.

    I think there's too much navel gazing by members that focus only on "the forum". A forum is a tool just like software - it can be highly useful and educational, interesting and entertaining.

    It should not be an avocation - a cause, a banner to carry on your "IM journey"...it's a forum. It will survive long term or not depending on the owners management - it will be useful or not depending on the expertise of those who post here and the willingness to interact rather than react.

    Anyone can come or go as they please, agree or disagree within the scope of reasonable behavior, etc. It's a good place to meet - but not a village to live in.
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    Why do we have to be in or out, is it an ultimatum?

    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    And make no mistake this is no superficial rah rah go team go cheerleading BS. This is some real stuff coming to the surface.
    Ah but i think it is Robert....

    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Unfortunately, there is a group of individuals who really want to see this place burn to the ground. There is no denying that.

    Just like there is a group of individuals who blow smoke up the _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ on a daily basis.... The self proclaimed defenders of the Universe, oh and WF ...

    I like the forum but i don't live and breath WF. Some people take these IM forums too seriously, maybe because it's their bread and butter i don't know...

    There are things i don't like:

    The influx of desperate newbies who have no education and can't string a sentence together ...
    The repetitive nature of these forums, same questions, same regurgitated answers..
    The unchecked lying and exaggeration committed by some..

    Does that mean i have to leave because i'm not all Cumbaya and in sync with the La-La Land some people live in ?
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    • There's still a lot of gold that can be found within this Forum.

      If you're DILIGENT and SMART, you'll find it.

      With that said ......

      I AM still in!

      JMB
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  • I am still in, despite the hiccups.

    Only reason I was ever out was cos I got momentarily flung.

    There is loadsa stuff here, mostly not my scene, so when I am makin' with the inhabiteuse mentality I head for Copywritin', Main IM — an' OT.

    Copywritin' drops regular cool stuff, Main IM is more hit an' miss — an' OT provides me with the sublime qualitya laughs I need to survive on this outta-control sh*tball we call the Earth.

    Plus, you can post cat pix here an' no one gives a damn.

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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    There is a ton of useful information in these threads for free! It does take a bit of patience to extract the gold nuggets without getting a bag half filled with iron pyrite though...

    I suspect a lot of folk use the time on the forums to better advantage now. After coming here and getting an education... many stayed and helped for years. But at some point you have decide your debt to the forum for your education is paid. 15, 20, 30 or an hour a day is a lot of time over the years away from family and away from managing a business.

    5 years ago, I remember seeing same posts like this one. Also in 2008. Pretty much this subject seems to be a permanent topic. Lol. Things change. You are not required to like it, so should you stay or should you go? The great thing is, it is entirely up to you!

    ~Dog§cout

    PS: My post count used to be in the 8k range and about 4k in thanks... not a problem as far as ego, but if every person's posts have been pruned as much... there probably is a ton of valuable information in the recycle bin.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShayB
    I'm in.
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    "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    My two cents:

    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    They say all the good people from the glory days of Warrior Forum are all deserted now!!
    Many are gone. Sometimes I'll see a bumped thread and I'll see familiar faces that posted in that thread from 2 years ago or whatever. I'll remember that a particular person was pretty active back in the day. So I'll look at their profile and they haven't logged in 1 1/2 years. Then I'll see another one and they haven't been back since 9 months ago.

    People move on. It doesn't matter if it's the Elks club, Weight Watchers, or an online forum. People lose interest. People die. People get rich and don't need us anymore. People lose it all and blame the rest of us.

    So while some are gone, for whatever reason, the hope is that new ones of the same or better caliber will replace them. That doesn't take away the fact that some of the quality posters of the past aren't here anymore and some are sad.

    They say Traffic has dwindled to levels that all this will soon be a collapsed ghost town
    Saying traffic is down is true. There is no bias or blame or ridicule in the facts. It's also true that if things don't change, it may soon be more of a ghost town.

    They say that all we have left here at Warrior Forum is a bunch of inept Marketers and penniless non- english speaking newbies
    I hate the comments about Indians or non-English speakers because most of my immediate family's English is about the level you see here.

    Having said that, I think it's obvious that there is a new demographic that seems to be the majority that doesn't seem to speak or write fluent English. Again, if this is a fact (which some stats companies seem to prove) it is what it is.

    If people want to stay involved in the community they are going to have to change the way they write and make sure they understand what is being said. There is a responsibility on both sides for this. It's not just them that are wrong and need to go away. It's us that needs to be more accepting.

    And this happens in real life too. Ever tried to have a conversation with your local Chinese or Japanese or Mexican restaurant staff? The world is changing.

    and a flawed Ownership
    I think FL is actively trying to make things better to avoid a further decline. They are trying to stimulate discussion. The mods and admin are getting more involved in posting, asking for input, responding to input, etc. They've hired a community manager. They've fixed some technical things quickly after being reported. They fixed some of the rules. They are trying to stimulate discussion. And they say they have a huge new thing coming in the next few days that I am anxious to hear about.

    All in all, while they aren't perfect yet (who is?), the new "energy" on a broader spectrum is welcome. Hopefully, some of this can actually help turn things around.

    They say we are just plain doomed here along with the Owners

    You know what I say ??

    I say bullshit to all of it.( Sorry Mods I'm spelling that one out without any bleeps, feel free to edit or delete)

    What I see is a small but very capable, very committed , very successful group of Marketers.
    Just because someone posts a lot doesn't mean they are committed or successful. I was wondering what happened to a "one hit wonder" the other day. He was on fire. He was committed. He was helpful. He was posting left and right. He was going to make things right. He was a fighter for the small guy. And he burned out just like most others like him do after a couple months.

    I saw another guy that posted a WSO and all the sudden got really interested in giving back to the community right before his WSO came out. Then he pretty much went dark a couple days later.

    Time will tell.

    I have been on a cross country vacation the last three weeks covering 3,500 mles in 10 states. But I have occasionally peeked in the last few weeks and honestly Iam seeing some promising things.

    Some of the Admin. and Mods are really stepping up. And Iam really seeing some impressive things occurring that I haven't seen in over 2 years. Thank you, guys !!
    Agreed 100%.

    Also, I'm observing a few of the old timers really stir up some great and helpful discussion.And some relative Newbies who are contributing beyond their years
    I agree. We need more of this. If we don't like the articles approach we need to understand why they are happening - an attempt to stimulate discussion. We could do the same. Not in a forced/fake way but in a natural way.

    Unfortunately, there is a group of individuals who really want to see this place burn to the ground. There is no denying that.
    I honestly don't believe there is a group effort or conspiracy or anyone trying to take down the forum. Every one of the folks that have been placed, rightly or wrongly, in *that* group aren't anti-anything I don't believe.

    The great majority of them were and are primarily pro-WF (that is where I come from and that includes the positive and negative input I've shared over the last couple years.) Over the last couple years things have changed, some perhaps bad (or unpopular) decisions have been made by FL combined with not listening to some good input, and some of them aren't so pro-WF anymore. Some have left and don't want to come back. Not because they hate the WF, in my opinion, but because they hate what has happened. And, of course, FL doesn't have to listen. At least it appears they are listening more now.

    Yes, there are jerks on both sides. Both are guilty of running down the forum with personal attacks, never ending arguments that get nasty, not giving the other side the benefit of the doubt, etc.

    But some of those that claim they are defending the WF are doing more damage, in my opinion and in some cases, than those they claim are attacking it.

    Also, some of those that are put in the anti- group are helping out to this day by answering questions and doing the same things they've always done. If they were so negative, and so against the forum, and wanted it to "burn to the ground" would they still be here helping where they can?

    Yes, some have crossed a line probably. Yes, some have left permanently. But I just don't see the value in continuing this us vs. them line of thinking.

    But in my 48 years of Life I have seen some of the most incredible obstacles overcome and seen some of the most incredible things accomplished by...... drumroll please....a small but very capable, very committed , very determined group of People.

    So how about it..you in ??
    Iam !!
    I've tried to show I'm in by helping out where I can, by being more positive than negative, by trying to be fair, by giving suggestions, by helping by reporting things that are out of line, recently tried to stimulate discussion, etc.

    So yes, I am in. I hope that we (members and FL working together) can turn things around. It may never go back to the "glory days" simply because of new ways to communicate such as FB, but I think a lot can be done to make things better.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I hate the comments about Indians or non-English speakers because most of my immediate family's English is about the level you see here.
      I actually think some of the non english people here are pretty smart - most people I know never picked up even as much as they have of a second language. However what happens is because they don't understand English they are at a loss to know whats going on in key areas and then people assume they are stupid.

      Having lived in South Florida I can tell you there are a whole lot of jobs you can't get without being bilingual. You must be totally fluent in both Spanish and English. Its not discrimination to not be hired because you can't speak a language. Its a market requirement in the city of Miami in particular. If you can't communicate in Spanish then you can't talk to all the south american customers that fly in to shop and do business there.

      Marketers need to either communicate well in their markets or hire someone who can. It IS silly to think I can go into a russian market not understand russian and expect my customers to try and understand my broken Russian. Its a poor business approach and though people can ask that others bend and contort to try and understand bad English, people (especially the kind of people who would fill in the now empty gaps) are going to continue to be turned off by posts that are confusing and to the english reader reads as if written by a ten year old (My russian would probably sound like a five year old).

      Its just common sense and ignoring common sense won't bring any forum back.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by DogScout View Post


        PS: My post count used to be in the 8k range and about 4k in thanks... not a problem as far as ego, but if every person's posts have been pruned as much... there probably is a ton of valuable information in the recycle bin.
        That's a good point...and it's good to see you back.

        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I actually think some of the non english people here are pretty smart...
        Many are...the English language, given it's subtleties and peculiarities, is probably difficult to learn for those who don't grow up in an English speaking country or household.
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        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author dburk
    Improvements, where?

    The thread I read just before this one had an off topic reply of a youtube video ad for a wannabe marketer's affiliate link. Good grief.

    It doesn't matter if it is in Chinese, English, or Video ads, it seems to be 90% spam, 8% article dumps, and 2% discussions. And for the most part, seems all the real discussions are in Off Topic Forum.

    I'm still seeing the same broken features, loads of spam filled posts, mostly in the form of comment spam on article dump threads, and people trying to talk up these mysterious sightings of improvements. If you cannot name a specific improvement did it really happen? Maybe it was just a daydream?

    I want to believe, it's just really hard to when people are never specific about the so called improvements. Please, someone point to something specific. If seems like very little has improved, but people just claim that they saw something, but dare not mention what it was. Makes it kind of hard to believe when it these so called improvements seem so nebulous.

    Meanwhile, basic features are still broken, features like " View First Unread " link broken for over a year now. Come on guys, that was probably the single most useful feature on the forum and it's been broken for a year.

    It seems features that makes discussion easier for members are neglected, while article dumping is rampant, and changes are mostly cosmetic. We don't come here to the WF to look for slight changes in graphics, or new expanded banner ads, nor long outdated RSS feeds, those are not the kind of things that attract members. A few of the many features that were broken a long time ago finally got fixed, but seems they being fixed at half they rate they are being broken, that's not progress.

    I have been a member here for 11 years, and in the past when something broke it was fixed within minutes, at most a few hours. Over the past year or so things break and take weeks, months, or never get fixed. Useful features that are broken are ignored while cosmetic modifications seem to have priority.

    While I am still here, for every one member like me there are a 1000 people that have left and may never return.

    Why can't fixing useful, but broken, features be made a priority?

    Why can't article dumpers be warned to stop, or get banned?

    Why can't comment spam and thinly veiled ads for affiliate marketers get removed?

    Now those are some things that I can get behind. What do you say? Are you in on getting the core issues fixed?
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    • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

      Improvements, where?

      I want to believe, it's just really hard to when people are never specific about the so called improvements. Please, someone point to something specific. If seems like very little has improved, but people just claim that they saw something, but dare not mention what it was. Makes it kind of hard to believe when it these so called improvements seem so nebulous.
      Two improvements I can see are the 1) If I have x dollars to spend, how do I make XXX dollars in a few weeks. These type of threads are gone. 2) The blatant spam bot posts have been controlled for the most part. The other night someone was putting up posts in Chinese and they disappeared quickly.

      Here are a few others. Some of the sig whores have left, maybe they are no longer profitable here, but at least they are gone. The change to the smaller sig files looks like an improvement. There is a decent 30 day challenge going on, more discussion is taking place in the copy writing and main forum the past 2-3 weeks.

      Here is and example of at least one thread that has some honest discussion -http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/1200887-roast-my-stupid-5-000-marketing-plan.html

      The Op is asking are you in or out, Who cares. What someone thinks ! IMHO I personally belong to 3 different forums one is not even IM related. I visit different restaurants all the time and like most people wear different brands of clothes. Variety is the spice of life. If W.F. were to make some requirement to force a either or... More people will jump ship. You can not force loyalty on people it has to be earned.

      What the future for this place? It really up to the owners it is their decision at the end of the day. This place will never be like it was when there was a different owner who ran the forum but time changes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Why can't article dumpers be warned to stop, or get banned?
    I think you missed that memo - articles are now permitted. Those are Freelancer.com folks posting the articles that were solicited by the WF folks.

    Moderating has gotten much better recently. However, it's spotty as some days everything here seems "regulated" and other days it's a free for all. I just look around when I log in - to see what sort of "day" it is.
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Moderating has gotten much better recently.
      I don't agree with that Kay.
      They may be dealing with the bots blanket spamming a bit quicker,
      but they are difficult to miss.
      But they're still not doing much about the single post spammers,
      the self promoters or the habitual bumpers.
      Nor has much been done about sig files breaking the rules.
      Or people with jammed caps lock.
      There were a lot of new rules announced,
      but very little has been done in the way of enforcing them.
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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I think you missed that memo - articles are now permitted. Those are Freelancer.com folks posting the articles that were solicited by the WF folks.
      I refuse to believe that the Freelancer.com folks would delibertly sabotage their own forum. Perhaps a disgruntled employee, or just plain negligent employee, but the owners and other stakeholders certainly aren't behind sabotaging their own business. Please, say it ain't so.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Moderating has gotten much better recently. However, it's spotty as some days everything here seems "regulated" and other days it's a free for all. I just look around when I log in - to see what sort of "day" it is.
      The way I see it, it is the job of moderators to warn, and if necessary, ban members that are posting articles and the accompanying comment spam. If what you say is true, they would need to be ban themselves for things to get much better.

      For the most part, article writers are not moderators, nor are they creating discussions, save those that are complaining about their harmful practices. Those people are writing gobs of stuff about topics that they know nothing about. The members that are the real experts can write 25 paragraphs rebutting their 25 paragraphs of misguided fluff, but no one wants to read a thread like that. Isn't it easier to just delete the articles and warn the posters to halt their forum killing activities? That is how it was handled in the past, it worked then, why not now?
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      • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        Perhaps a disgruntled employee, or just plain negligent employee, but the owners and other stakeholders certainly aren't behind sabotaging their own business. Please, say it ain't so.
        Unless someone else on Freelancer is posing as "warriorforumteam", then someone employed/associated with this forum hired at least one of the writers known as "neshaword":




        Neshaword profile for picture comparison.

        Neshaword LinkedIn profile that led to the Freelancer profile.

        Some of the articles:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

        I wonder if now, that the articles didn't seem to work too well, if neshaword has been moved to more of a pay-per-post kind of deal? He's posting at a phenomenal rate, often many times in a row while adding nothing new. That could be the next way to try and "stir up activity"...

        Edit to Add: The warriorforumteam profile on Freelancer, based out of Australia.
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        • Profile picture of the author dburk
          Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

          Unless someone else on Freelancer is posing as "warriorforumteam", then someone employed/associated with this forum hired at least one of the writers known as "neshaword":




          Neshaword profile for picture comparison.

          Neshaword LinkedIn profile that led to the Freelancer profile.

          Some of the articles:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

          I wonder if now, that the articles didn't seem to work too well, if neshaword has been moved to more of a pay-per-post kind of deal? He's posting at a phenomenal rate, often many times in a row while adding nothing new. That could be the next way to try and "stir up activity"...

          Edit to Add: The warriorforumteam profile on Freelancer, based out of Australia.
          Hi gotthrowaway,

          Pretending to be the party that you are secretly trying to sabotage... What better way to sabotage a forum?

          Like I said, what possible incentive could the owners of the forum have for sabotaging their own asset? It has to be a competitor, or someone with a grudge, perhaps a disgruntled employee? No way the owners and stakeholders would self-sabotage their own forum.

          That, or maybe it is my normalcy bias kicking in.

          The goal of marketing differs from selling, or advertising goals. The goal of selling and advertising is to get a sale, while the goal of marketing is to improve the results. That might seem like a subtle difference, but is a significant difference. This being a forum about marketing, it needs to have participants that are aware of and actively practice marketing to have any credibility on primary purpose of the forum's existence.

          If this forum, about marketing, is ran be people that aren't even testing and measuring the results of their activity then it is no longer a credible place for marketers to have discussions. Surely, if the owners are having non-marketing people post useless drivel in some self-sabotaging campaign then they are not practicing the most elemental concept of marketing, that of testing, measuring, and adapting, based on data.

          So, I refuse to believe that the owners of this forum would hire non-experts, to pose as experts, in a lame attempt to attract and engage real experts. The only kind of engagement that will foster is the engagement of complaint. Mostly, it will lead to non-engagement, and a loss of active membership.

          No way.. no how.. would the owners want that, am I wrong?
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          • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
            Originally Posted by dburk View Post

            Hi gotthrowaway,

            Pretending to be the party that you are secretly trying to sabotage... What better way to sabotage a forum?
            Unless forum management didn't view the practice as sabotage.

            Also, what are the odds that someone not associated with Warrior Forum is using the mantra "warriorforumteam", on the owner's platform, without notice?

            Occam's Razor and all that.
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            • Profile picture of the author dburk
              Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

              Unless forum management didn't view the practice as sabotage.

              Also, what are the odds that someone not associated with Warrior Forum is using the mantra "warriorforumteam", on the owner's platform, without notice?

              Occam's Razor and all that.
              Hi gotthrowaway,

              My point was that you have no business running a marketing forum if you aren't practicing marketing. You cannot be practicing marketing if you are not measuring, and you cannot be measuring if you are not seeing the forum killing result of article dumping. I was just trying to be logical.

              If you are on a marketing forum, think marketers, not low budget article fluffers paid by the word count.

              I suppose you could be right, the WF could now be ran by people that have no clue what marketing is, and what it is not. If' that is true it would surely be ironic, wouldn't it?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post


          Neshaword profile for picture comparison.

          Neshaword LinkedIn profile that led to the Freelancer profile.

          Some of the articles:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

          I wonder if now, that the articles didn't seem to work too well, if neshaword has been moved to more of a pay-per-post kind of deal? He's posting at a phenomenal rate, often many times in a row while adding nothing new. That could be the next way to try and "stir up activity"...

          Edit to Add: The warriorforumteam profile on Freelancer, based out of Australia.
          Thats some well done sleuthing there.Of course there is no way of knowing if he wrote for this forum but the very idea that someone is hiring ten writers to write 50 articles each for any forum doesn't speak well for their understanding of forums. It would be even sillier that they didn't get the writers from here (although that rate would attract no good poster)

          I had far less Issue with Dan's articles than many here did and thought they went waaay overboard but I can certainly see a good point if warriorforumteam is actually the people who run this forum (I also can't see why anyone would pay out money under that name but stranger things have happened online)
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post


            I had far less Issue with Dan's articles than many here
            That's just it, they weren't Dan's articles.
            They were just copy and paste jobs.
            Any fool can do that. Here's another that's just started doing the same:
            http://www.warriorforum.com/search.p...rchid=47660508
            Is that really what people want from this forum?
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            • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

              Here's another that's just started doing the same:
              http://www.warriorforum.com/search.p...rchid=47660508
              Better make that 2
              http://www.warriorforum.com/search.p...rchid=47660915
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

              That's just it, they weren't Dan's articles.
              They were just copy and paste jobs.
              Any fool can do that.
              I wasn't by "Dan's article" claiming that the works were his but just the ones he posted. I still don't see the point of getting up into ownership or reps of ownership faces. I've seen a few where Dan has engaged in communication afterwards rather than dropping an article and that's it.

              I don't really have an issue with that if the sources are good and you think that can be a basis for conversation. I've also seen some that were just copy and paste and no interaction as well and on those your point is solid.

              Its one thing to take a source thats good and talk about it here. Its another thing to hire ten writers to post 50 posts each. Thats just silly to do for a forum (if true).

              People just have assumed I am all pro management and I've never been.I am just pro not bashing people on their own site endlessly. For example I could tell you what I thought of the recent announcement and locking of a thread stating that nothing at all would be done about ESL gibberish that no one can understand

              but what would be the point?

              Rather than this great cause to rally for and be determined to "win" and be "in" ask yourself what would a loved one think (who is not connected to WF at all) that your great cause is rescuing a forum that you do not own or have a financial interest in?

              they'd think you were nuts to either endlessly argue about it or rally around as your great cause. My wife would probably say -"Mike don't you think you are spending too much time online?"

              I am pretty certain now that the problem a lot of people are having with WF is NOT the same problem that FL evenly remotely cares about but thats their business not mine.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by dburk View Post

    Improvements, where?

    The thread I read just before this one had an off topic reply of a youtube video ad for a wannabe marketer's affiliate link. Good grief.

    It doesn't matter if it is in Chinese, English, or Video ads, it seems to be 90% spam, 8% article dumps, and 2% discussions. And for the most part, seems all the real discussions are in Off Topic Forum.

    I'm still seeing the same broken features, loads of spam filled posts, mostly in the form of comment spam on article dump threads, and people trying to talk up these mysterious sightings of improvements. If you cannot name a specific improvement did it really happen? Maybe it was just a daydream?

    I want to believe, it's just really hard to when people are never specific about the so called improvements. Please, someone point to something specific. If seems like very little has improved, but people just claim that they saw something, but dare not mention what it was. Makes it kind of hard to believe when it these so called improvements seem so nebulous.

    Meanwhile, basic features are still broken, features like " View First Unread " link broken for over a year now. Come on guys, that was probably the single most useful feature on the forum and it's been broken for a year.

    It seems features that makes discussion easier for members are neglected, while article dumping is rampant, and changes are mostly cosmetic. We don't come here to the WF to look for slight changes in graphics, or new expanded banner ads, nor long outdated RSS feeds, those are not the kind of things that attract members. A few of the many features that were broken a long time ago finally got fixed, but seems they being fixed at half they rate they are being broken, that's not progress.

    I have been a member here for 11 years, and in the past when something broke it was fixed within minutes, at most a few hours. Over the past year or so things break and take weeks, months, or never get fixed. Useful features that are broken are ignored while cosmetic modifications seem to have priority.

    While I am still here, for every one member like me there are a 1000 people that have left and may never return.

    Why can't fixing useful, but broken, features be made a priority?

    Why can't article dumpers be warned to stop, or get banned?

    Why can't comment spam and thinly veiled ads for affiliate marketers get removed?

    Now those are some things that I can get behind. What do you say? Are you in on getting the core issues fixed?
    Yes, been a member for 6.5, and not happy Jan.


    Customer relations is more the go here, than actual improvements. Or conflict resolution scripts, parroted out, than actually doing something.

    Most members that have gone for good, or rarely come back can see this, and it just reinforces the fact that the WF, is limping alone, maybe for Tax ritoff reasons, or a funnel for FL, either way, it keeps the intelligent IM, away.

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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by dburk View Post

    I refuse to believe that the Freelancer.com folks would delibertly sabotage their own forum. Perhaps a disgruntled employee, or just plain negligent employee, but the owners and other stakeholders certainly aren't behind sabotaging their own business. Please, say it ain't so.


    FL previously bought another IM forum, and drove it into the ground. So much so, it cannot be accessed anymore.

    Corporations and hostile takeovers, nothing new there.

    Or buying an asset, and letting it go downhill for tax reasons, isn't that big a surprize.

    It still p**** off its past members thought.

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  • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
    I came back last week after a long hiatus.

    (which was a result of me posting an 800 word reply to someone who asked a question at the end of that post I gave him a link to further research that i'd published.... and I got a warning for self-promotion from a mod! that reply took nearly an hour to write!)

    I was shocked at the amount of spam and stupid posts that are being made.

    "How I do Internet marketing" was one of the better ones.

    I used to love this place, you could get answers to questions, and people were generally thankful for useful replies. As a result I didn't mind spending 20-30 minutes creating a reply with lots of information.

    I often picked up a couple of WSO's each week and there was real gold available, I also published several WSO's and built a good list of subscribers many of whom I now class as friends.

    It used to feel like a proper community.

    Now I don't know what it feels like but it doesn't feel like a positive place where you can learn to grow your online business.

    Which is a terrible shame because the old WF despite it's faults was responsible for a lot of success.
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    If you are serious about online marketing come and Join our free community The Foundation
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by M Thompson View Post

      I came back last week after a long hiatus.

      (which was a result of me posting an 800 word reply to someone who asked a question at the end of that post I gave him a link to further research that i'd published.... and I got a warning for self-promotion from a mod! that reply took nearly an hour to write!).
      Unfortunately thats an old rule and you might have got it years back as well but just lucked out. There have been a few members that have bent the ears of those in charge (old management or relatively new) about the virtue of marketers that have nothing to market on a forum that is 90% MMO


      Its been to the point where the jealous have wanted perfectly legit sigs entirely removed
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    I was just informed that I needed to get up with the rules ((*&^ knows when that changed) but any way I needed to reduce my sig line to 2 rows and do it within 48 hours or a what else smacko wacko or some crap.

    Mention that I have listed faults for what would be months now, plus busy reporting spammers but now I must stop reporting faults and or spammers to conform instantly to new rules.

    big smile and a what the frogs legs here? I am saying to myself, seems to me like the important people are in the house with an iron fist, and seems a bit like a long running comedy that is no longer funny this warrior forum is becoming.
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    | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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  • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
    Ohh and following on from my earlier comments.

    I get a violation notice about my signature..

    So it's ok to spam but not ok to try to help people... now we know why so many longstanding members are leaving or have left.

    So in reply to the OP's question.. Im Out..
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    The new rules were being examined and adjusted and were to be made very public by emails and/or pm's etc.

    Instead, mods seem to be enforcing sig rules on people who had no way of knowing there was a change.

    From the reaction of people who were "told" about new sig rules - I'm assuming the message is not a polite "rules have changds, please adjust your sig" but more a "do this or else".

    This forum can't afford to lose any more REAL (as in working online and making money doing it) marketers. Or maybe that tipping point has passed already...so stupid to antagonize the few experienced marketers still here.
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    Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
    ***
    One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
    what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      The new rules were being examined and adjusted and were to be made very public by emails and/or pm's etc.

      Instead, mods seem to be enforcing sig rules on people who had no way of knowing there was a change.

      From the reaction of people who were "told" about new sig rules - I'm assuming the message is not a polite "rules have changes, please adjust your sig" but more a "do this or else".

      This forum can't afford to lose any more REAL (as in working online and making money doing it) marketers. Or maybe that tipping point has passed already...so stupid to antagonize the few experienced marketers still here.
      Hi

      I thought the same thing when I was sent a curse message about my signature being more than 2 lines. What a waste of moderators efforts. The signatures rules worked fine for many years, now an arbitrary change, and for what? Seemed like a deliberate attempt to reduce membership.

      Now the funny thing is that I noticed a reply to a thread that was started by what I thought was a real person, asking a real question, then it became obvious that it was a spambot thread. I reported the spam to moderator's and posted a request for the thread to be removed. And waited... nothing... then another spambot reply, this time it was my exact reply with a few of my words replace with synonyms by an article spinner. It was hilarious.

      Now that got wondering, why aren't the moderators dealing with these spambot threads? If what you guys are saying is true, that the WF staff is deliberately sabotaging this forum by overrunning it with garbage placed by paid posters, then maybe it is the forum operators that are running the spambots? That would explain a lot.

      Perhaps the current owners were the main operator of spambots on this forum, frustrated with their spambot threads being deleted so often that they bought this forum specifically to have unfettered access to generate spambot threads, and never see them removed?

      Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony?
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        Hi

        I thought the same thing when I was sent a curse message about my signature being more than 2 lines. What a waste of moderators efforts. The signatures rules worked fine for many years, now an arbitrary change, and for what? Seemed like a deliberate attempt to reduce membership.

        Now the funny thing is that I noticed a reply to a thread that was started by what I thought was a real person, asking a real question, then it became obvious that it was a spambot thread. I reported the spam to moderator's and posted a request for the thread to be removed. And waited... nothing... then another spambot reply, this time it was my exact reply with a few of my words replace with synonyms by an article spinner. It was hilarious.

        Now that got wondering, why aren't the moderators dealing with these spambot threads? If what you guys are saying is true, that the WF staff is deliberately sabotaging this forum by overrunning it with garbage placed by paid posters, then maybe it is the forum operators that are running the spambots? That would explain a lot.

        Perhaps the current owners were the main operator of spambots on this forum, frustrated with their spambot threads being deleted so often that they bought this forum specifically to have unfettered access to generate spambot threads, and never see them removed?

        Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony?


        But no, I don't think their purchase was an elaborate scheme to unleash spambots.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        Hi

        I thought the same thing when I was sent a curse message about my signature being more than 2 lines. What a waste of moderators efforts. The signatures rules worked fine for many years, now an arbitrary change, and for what? Seemed like a deliberate attempt to reduce membership.

        Now the funny thing is that I noticed a reply to a thread that was started by what I thought was a real person, asking a real question, then it became obvious that it was a spambot thread. I reported the spam to moderator's and posted a request for the thread to be removed. And waited... nothing... then another spambot reply, this time it was my exact reply with a few of my words replace with synonyms by an article spinner. It was hilarious.

        Now that got wondering, why aren't the moderators dealing with these spambot threads? If what you guys are saying is true, that the WF staff is deliberately sabotaging this forum by overrunning it with garbage placed by paid posters, then maybe it is the forum operators that are running the spambots? That would explain a lot.

        Perhaps the current owners were the main operator of spambots on this forum, frustrated with their spambot threads being deleted so often that they bought this forum specifically to have unfettered access to generate spambot threads, and never see them removed?

        Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony?
        It is after the financial year, so we won't have long to wait.

        But from what l can see, the traffic is down to a trickle.


        And that traffic, isn't interested in much other than IM.

        Now that is depressing.

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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          And that traffic, isn't interested in much other than IM.

          Now that is depressing.
          And what exactly is traffic supposed to be looking for when they come to an internet marketing forum?

          Are you looking for Martian traffic, or what?
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          And that traffic, isn't interested in much other than IM.

          Now that is depressing.

          It is depressing that the traffic on an IM forum is not interested in much else than IM?

          Yeah, that is just awful. Turn the lights off. Let's close it down.

          EDIT: Oh goddmanit. I just agreed with Don.
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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          But from what l can see, the traffic is down to a trickle.


          This is what it looked like back on June 6th.

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      • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        If what you guys are saying is true, that the WF staff is deliberately sabotaging this forum by overrunning it with garbage placed by paid posters,
        A failed attempt at a method of igniting conversation, yes. Sabotage? No. I wouldn't be comfortable saying that. They're trying here, in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @Mike

    That Nesha stuff was posted last week on another forum. The post here is a repeat.

    @Discrat

    I'm going mess with a couple of offers to see what happens after a short upcoming vacay and then make a determination. Most of the vendors launching graphics and image stuff are not doing so here anymore for pretty good reason.

    If I get enough organic sales on here then I stay. If not, I think I'm out.

    While we all see some changes taking place here, I'm not yet sold on anything. I do agree with your "group burn" statement and am not yet completely sold on the moderation, all of the thread closings (some are ok), and the support end of this operation.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    The search strings that are being posted don't work for anyone other than yourself. You need to link the profiles, linking the search string does not work for others.
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      The search strings that are being posted don't work for anyone other than yourself. You need to link the profiles, linking the search string does not work for others.
      They don't work now because they have all been deleted.
      Maybe common sense is prevailing.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        They don't work now because they have all been deleted.
        Maybe common sense is prevailing.
        See if this string works for you and others, maybe they have fixed the issue with some of the search string links.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/search.p...rchid=47661633
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        • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

          See if this string works for you and others, maybe they have fixed the issue with some of the search string links.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/search.p...rchid=47661633
          No that doesn't work.
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

            No that doesn't work.
            That's a link to your posts. Like I mentioned earlier, most (if not all) of those search ID strings don't work for others, only yourself.



            It's been like that for quite awhile...
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      The search strings that are being posted don't work for anyone other than yourself. You need to link the profiles, linking the search string does not work for others.
      Here you go, he's off again:
      View Profile: Ruchi Bhargava

      If this sort of copy and paste garbage becomes the norm here,
      there really is no hope at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        Here you go, he's off again:
        View Profile: Ruchi Bhargava

        If this sort of copy and paste garbage becomes the norm here,
        there really is no hope at all.
        While I rather doubt it's the dictionary definition of "copy and paste", I'm pretty much in agreement with you...too much of this may not be helpful in the end.

        If you are only going to "curate" or "summarize" or whatever from a single source you may as well just link the source and be done with it. I would hate to see a hundred or more members start making these types of posts just to get sig exposure.

        The last sentence explains the entire blasting strategy...to stimulate discussion.

        Originally Posted by Ruchi Bhargava View Post

        Which tools do you use to help your business grow?
        Will it work? The latest available data shows the decline continues and I guess we are at 30 days or longer with this "campaign" or whatever it is that's happening.

        I mentioned before I would like to see the 30-60-90 day results, but so far, I'm not yet convinced.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        Here you go, he's off again:
        View Profile: Ruchi Bhargava

        If this sort of copy and paste garbage becomes the norm here,
        there really is no hope at all.
        Lgibbon I'll surprise you and say if thats another poster hired by FL then you were entirely right to complain about it and those that did have for the most part a good point. Dan's posts came across to me different (kind of like Kay's one good point that nesh went ahead and engaged in discussion). I still don;t get the point in getting in a community managers face about something they choose to do with their own site but yeah if thats supposed to be a solution i do see where you and a reasonable logical person would think there is no hope at all

        However I think it also offers a glimpse as to why the problems you see are probably not the ones FL thinks the site has. If you think about it FL went to Freelancer.com (if true) to get people to write here. They could have ran an ad here with the condition any takers had to pledge confidentiality. They could have found real marketers from here to write here

        They skipped WF posters and went to FL.com writers. Theres a lot of different things that you could draw from that. Probably none of them what long time members here would like.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          However I think it also offers a glimpse as to why the problems you see are probably not the ones FL thinks the site has. If you think about it FL went to Freelancer.com (if true) to get people to write here. They could have ran an ad here with the condition any takers had to pledge confidentiality. They could have found real marketers from here to write here

          They skipped WF posters and went to FL.com writers. Theres a lot of different things that you could draw from that. Probably none of them what long time members here would like.
          Mike,

          I don't think they would have even had to ask them to pledge confidentiality. They could have been open and transparent about it.

          Heck, in a lot of cases, they would not have had to even pay them. They could have offered to make their post a sticky in whatever subforum they were posting in for say a month and gave them 1-2 relevant links to whatever pages they liked.

          A lot of marketers would have jumped at it just for that.

          They could have also guaranteed them nothing. They could have said they were only going to post the best articles and the rest would not be used. They still would have had people signing up for that, don't you think?

          There would still be some lousy articles I am sure, even from people that know what they are doing. I know a lot of brilliant people who couldn't write something compelling to save their lives.

          Overall though, I bet the reception would have been more welcoming to the idea, and the content would have been better. There would still be detractors. There are some people who are going to complain no matter what is done.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            They could have offered to make their post a sticky in whatever subforum they were posting in for say a month and gave them 1-2 relevant links to whatever pages they liked.

            A lot of marketers would have jumped at it just for that.
            Yep that would have done it or even a stickied WSO for a few days. I only mentioned the confidentiality thing if it was something they didn't want people to know.

            They still would have had people signing up for that, don't you think?
            thats just it. I don't think they wanted that anyway. Perhaps in being diplomatic I wasn't straightforward enough (probably trying not to whine about a site on the site thing) but just as a logical observation.

            A) I don't think FL is made up of stupid people
            B) because of A I don't think it hasn't occurred to them they could enlist the help of WF members
            C) If they chose not to enlist the help of WF members and go to FL.com it had to be for a rational reason.

            Now what would those reasons be? some of the main options as I see it

            1) they don't trust or value the posters here (I don't know how much sense that makes to trust anonymous writers over at Fl.com to be better)
            2) they value the Fl.com providers more than they do marketers/writers here
            3) they value putting dollars into Fl.com more
            4) they thought it would be cheaper (but as you stated they could have gone with perks over cash so thats hard to fathom)

            If i had to pick one (and I am sure others could be offered) that I thought was the most logical (and people aren't always logical) i'd go with number 2 and 3. freelancer.com is obviously the flagship site and that membership is more important by the whole length of a horse or two. Its more rational to understand why fl has never been too concerned with the change in demographics here even if it ends up with english posts that read like gibberish. Its more in keeping with the demographic that makes them money from completed jobs.

            Can't argue with cash people. You'll never win. If you make a load of cash from a demographic doing work for people all over the world then wouldn't you keep them happy?

            Removing spam is one thing. restoring great conversations is another matter where you will just keep scratching your head and bumping with theirs because the goals are not the same.I think a lot of people thought FL had bought Wf to be their crown jewel and improve it but business goes off the bottom line. For all we know WF was bought to feed to FL and as long as the purchase makes a net profit and Fl.com burps in contentment then its all good from a business stand point.

            This all goes to the question of the OP - "are you in?". Lets say I choose to be "in"? if the keepers of the "in" have another group more in mind how "in" will I ever be? its the subject of every other teen movie - wanting to be in with a group doesn't mean you will be in
            .
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            • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post



              1) they don't trust or value the posters here (I don't know how much sense that makes to trust anonymous writers over at Fl.com to be better)
              They've only got themselves to blame for that.
              Most of the people capable of posting anything interesting have been
              run off the forum and been replaced by droves of junk posters
              whose IQ's barely match their shoe size.
              Pretty soon they'll be posting articles to each other,
              because there will be no one left who can read them.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

                They've only got themselves to blame for that.
                You pretty much missed my whole point. why should they BLAME themselves for anything? You are again assuming their objectives are the same as yours and the dearly departed. if what has been posted here is correct they have actually served 10 members at the FL.com site by funneling money their way to post here. I suspect they are happy about that part. FL hiring its own freelancers to do work is decent PR.

                The stats indicate that the readership demographics at WF now are more in line with their members at FL.com. so the members at their more core site are participating more here not less.

                A few people here can't get into their heads that FL hardly seems to be sobbing at the change in participation. They think theres some great wringing of the hands based on their own vision of the place lost - when FL need not even care about their vision.

                Theres an easy explanation for that if one stops assuming the goals are the same. If they are different as all the evidence points to then everyone can keep whining ,crying and complaining because FL is going to fulfill their business model regardless and as long as its a net profit for the company(over the purchase price) and the core of who they think are important is happy Its doubtful anyone will be blaming themselves for anything.

                they might even get applause from shareholders when its all said and done. All depends on net profit. shucks businesses buy companies all the time even to break them off and do something else with them even if its only short term.

                Thats life and thats business.


                Wf actually sold for less than most of us thought. I'd be surprised if they haven't already recouped most of the purchase price at least. This sense they are in panic mode and things are falling down around them as they try to figure out who is to blame is highly unlikely.
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                • Profile picture of the author dburk
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  You pretty much missed my whole point. why should they BLAME themselves for anything? You are again assuming their objectives are the same as yours and the dearly departed. if what has been posted here is correct they have actually served 10 members at the FL.com site by funneling money their way to post here. I suspect they are happy about that part. FL hiring its own freelancers to do work is decent PR.

                  The stats indicate that the readership demographics at WF now are more in line with their members at FL.com. so the members at their more core site are participating more here not less.

                  A few people here can't get into their heads that FL hardly seems to be sobbing at the change in participation. They think theres some great wringing of the hands based on their own vision of the place lost - when FL need not even care about their vision.

                  Theres an easy explanation for that if one stops assuming the goals are the same. If they are different as all the evidence points to then everyone can keep whining ,crying and complaining because FL is going to fulfill their business model regardless and as long as its a net profit for the company(over the purchase price) and the core of who they think are important is happy Its doubtful anyone will be blaming themselves for anything.

                  they might even get applause from shareholders when its all said and done. All depends on net profit. shucks businesses buy companies all the time even to break them off and do something else with them even if its only short term.

                  Thats life and thats business.


                  Wf actually sold for less than most of us thought. I'd be surprised if they haven't already recouped most of the purchase price at least. This sense they are in panic mode and things are falling down around them as they try to figure out who is to blame is highly unlikely.
                  Hi Mike,

                  If what you suggest is true, it makes sense.

                  If their true goal, all along, was to get rid of all us participating members, and replace us with paid posters, allowing more control over post topics and replies, using this once great forum as a platform to promote their core business. I presume that spamming the forums will become their new business model, right?

                  So, that seems to me to imply that FL bought WF for the express purpose of getting around the rules that prohibited their paid posters from posting spam. Is that what you are getting at?

                  I suppose a lot of SEO "workers" have been contracted to perform paid posting tasks. Do you think that FL bought WF to provide a posting destination for the army of paid posters hired at their marketplace?

                  Now that they have nearly cleared us all out, it's time to implement phase 2 of their strategy, launching paid posting campaigns?

                  With all the moves made so far it seems consistent with the goal of replacing real participation with an Astroturfing stategy where members are paid shills meant to draw search engine traffic to promote their main business. That would make participating members a "nuisance" rather than the "purpose" of the forum. I see your point, if that was always the goal then they are indeed on track.

                  And what about all the bot generated accounts that are posting random bits of text snippets on all of the recent threads, is that also part of their Astroturfing strategy too? They are not doing anything to block the bot posts and they certainly are not deleting them, so whats up with that? Is it some sort of thread bumping tactic?

                  Seems to me to just be a way of generating placeholders for spambot posts.

                  I have resisted thinking that all these forum killing practices were being implemented by the new forum operators, however the evidence is piling up faster and faster making me start to wonder.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                    Hi Mike,

                    If what you suggest is true, it makes sense.

                    If their true goal, all along, was to get rid of all us participating members, and replace us with paid posters, allowing more control over post topics and replies, using this once great forum as a platform to promote their core business. I presume that spamming the forums will become their new business model, right?

                    So, that seems to me to imply that FL bought WF for the express purpose of getting around the rules that prohibited their paid posters from posting spam. Is that what you are getting at?

                    No Dburk not even close to what I was getting at. To put it more straight - theres a demographic that most of us understand on some level we are not going to have a great discourse with because they do not fully understand the language. They are often called foolish but a good part of it is just a language and cultural barrier which frankly a lot of us primary English speakers would have entering into their demographic. People pointed out the demographic change over and over but I do not see any way FL wishes to address it because it matches with a demographic that is important to their main site and WF is not that site.

                    Which leads me to one more point. You stated "this once great forum"

                    I don't speak for FL obviously but just being rational - I think this is another area where i think there is a huge disconnect. Theres always this talk of FL doesn't know this or that or "they are clueless . "we know this" "past owners knew that" - but seriously how must some of the higher ups view posters on WF?

                    They have built a multi million international company that certainly no one could buy for the price WF was sold for and a bunch of posters on a predominantly MMO board (which is viewed as snake oil by HUGE portions of the business world) are running around on their forum claiming they are the shizzle and FL admins and owners know nothing and are idiots. I doubt they would ever admit it but I'd put down money at least some of them have rolled their eyes

                    Seriously DB...there are huge areas of the business world that for years I don't even let know I post on WF because I would be laughed out the door just for participating here and if I said it was a great forum even three or four years ago it would be enough to dismiss me ever providing any services for said companies.

                    Don't speak for FL (super obvious) but most corporate types I've dealt with do snicker at WF and don't consider it ever great except in MMO pitching. I could see some of those types thinking the articles ARE an improvement over regular posts

                    We dress things up too much more than they are or were and I think that causes another big disconnect.
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                    • Profile picture of the author dburk
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      No Dburk not even close to what I was getting at. To put it more straight - theres a demographic that most of us understand on some level we are not going to have a great discourse with because they do not fully understand the language. They are often called foolish but a good part of it is just a language and cultural barrier which frankly a lot of us primary English speakers would have entering into their demographic. People pointed out the demographic change over and over but I do not see any way FL wishes to address it because it matches with a demographic that is important to their main site and WF is not that site.

                      Which leads me to one more point. You stated "this once great forum"

                      I don't speak for FL obviously but just being rational - I think this is another area where i think there is a huge disconnect. Theres always this talk of FL doesn't know this or that or "they are clueless . "we know this" "past owners knew that" - but seriously how must some of the higher ups view posters on WF?

                      They have built a multi million international company that certainly no one could buy for the price WF was sold for and a bunch of posters on a predominantly MMO board (which is viewed as snake oil by HUGE portions of the business world) are running around on their forum claiming they are the shizzle and FL admins and owners know nothing and are idiots. I doubt they would ever admit it but I'd put down money at least some of them have rolled their eyes

                      Seriously DB...there are huge areas of the business world that for years I don't even let know I post on WF because I would be laughed out the door just for participating here and if I said it was a great forum even three or four years ago it would be enough to dismiss me ever providing any services for said companies.

                      Don't speak for FL (super obvious) but most corporate types I've dealt with do snicker at WF and don't consider it ever great except in MMO pitching. I could see some of those types thinking the articles ARE an improvement over regular posts

                      We dress things up too much more than they are or were and I think that causes another big disconnect.
                      Hi Mike,

                      Isn't that a bit like falling for the Halo Effect fallacy?


                      Image Source

                      The existence of the so-called halo effect has long been recognised. It is the phenomenon whereby we assume that because people are good at doing A they will be good at doing B, C and D (or the reverse--because they are bad at doing A they will be bad at doing B, C and D). The phrase was first coined by Edward Thorndike, a psychologist who used it in a study published in 1920 to describe the way that commanding officers rated their soldiers. He found that officers usually judged their men as being either good right across the board or bad. There was little mixing of traits; few people were said to be good in one respect but bad in another.
                      Source: The halo effect | The Economist

                      Alex Birkett wrote a great article on this topic, and how it afffects CRO, it's a good read if your are interested:
                      How The Halo Effect Affects Optimization (the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)

                      When I said "once great forum" I was referring to the early days, before you were a member here. The forum discussions were a 100 times better back then. It was mainly a handful of people from those earlier days that stayed to help keep it going for as long as it has, nearly all are gone now. Most were not in the MMO crowd and looked upon it with the exact same disdain expressed in your reply.

                      When the WF changed hands, and reorganized the forums, most of what remained of the non-MMO crowd left at that point, it became almost exclusively MMO and has gone downhill since. You were around to witness that last gasp of the serious marketers. A small handful still come lurking, but rarely participate any longer.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                        When the WF changed hands, and reorganized the forums, most of what remained of the non-MMO crowd left at that point, it became almost exclusively MMO and has gone downhill since. You were around to witness that last gasp of the serious marketers. A small handful still come lurking, but rarely participate any longer.
                        LOL....the power of being in denial and history reinventions is strong with this one. this has been a 90% MMO board from as far back as I joined seven years ago and beyond. Anyone can look back and see that with income claims raging in WSOs without any restraint before FL ever took over. Its TOTAL history revision to claim it became that way two tears ago - total denial

                        What ever you are smoking I'd like some.

                        Further more I was first introduced to this forum thee years before I signed up by a relative and though admittedly it was more restrained it was then a MMO board too

                        The Halo effect has nothing to do with what I was talking about. No one said anything about FL even being better at any particular thing. Simply gave a common sense real world non pontifcating drivel analysis

                        A multi miilion dollar corporation does not become one by being run by idiots as I have heard people call FL. Its much more logical to just accpt the goals re different
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                        • Profile picture of the author dburk
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          What ever you are smoking I'd like some.
                          It's called truth and common sense, with a dash of decency. Sorry, it's only for grown-ups, check back with me after you reach maturity.


                          Image source
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                            It's called truth and common sense, with a dash of decency. Sorry, it's only for grown-ups, check back with me after you reach maturity.
                            and then he posted a comic to back up his point revealing he should have used adolescence instead of "grown up".

                            Only at WF.....lol

                            Meanwhile Awk!!!

                            http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...and-using.html

                            WSO from 2008 showing WF's MMO bent from Years and Years before FL. the whole last page still in the database shows the same kind of things WF was into as they are today.

                            P.S. Real Halo effect spotted. Ability to provide meaningless links and illustration not translating to ability to reason.
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                            • Profile picture of the author dburk
                              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                              and then he posted a comic to back up his point revealing he should have used adolescence instead of "grown up".

                              Only at WF.....lol

                              Meanwhile Awk!!!

                              http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...and-using.html

                              WSO from 2008 showing WF's MMO bent from Years and Years before FL. the whole last page still in the database shows the same kind of things WF was into as they are today.

                              See son thats how you use a link to prove your point.

                              P.S. Real Halo effect spotted. Ability to provide meaningless links and illustration not translating to ability to reason.
                              Hi Mike,

                              Just trying to find something simple enough for a manchild to read. Seems most higher points are missed.

                              You are clearly trying to prove something you said, which nobody disputed, and not what I said. You seem detached from reality somehow, arguing with yourself, or with what you seem to imagine other people saying.

                              It's hilarious to watch you make up assertions about what other people say, and then attack your own made up assertions, even gathering links to prove the false assertion as wrong. I hope you realize you are only proving your own assertions as invalid. Anyone that can read can see that your arguments are with your own aspersions. You are arguing with yourself. I think it's best at this point to just step back and watch to see which of your alter-egos win in the argument against your own words.

                              I know your MO from all the threads that you try to bully people. Your are simply going to take people's words and rewrite them, out of context, to try to pick a fight. Standard playground bully tactics that we all can count on you to deliver. It feels like talking to a kindergartner that responds to everything you say with "I know you are, but what am I?" Not falling for it.

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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                Dburk i thought for a second about reading your last post but as I am sure any real adult would understand concluded that a poster that backed up his comments with a comic illustration and now a pee wee Youtube video isn't worth further adult reading time

                                perhaps at some point in your WF tenure you will make a solid point that isn't all emotional early adolescent blubber at having your assertions dismantled but alas

                                Pee wee videos from Youtube is indicative it won't be today.

                                If perhaps you were trying to show in your posts a sample of the "once great forum" you only succeeded in revealing your definition of great is well - not great in and of itself to begin with.

                                My condolences for failing. If only I could grade on effort but competence does matter
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      Seriously DB...there are huge areas of the business world that for years I don't even let know I post on WF because I would be laughed out the door just for participating here and if I said it was a great forum even three or four years ago it would be enough to dismiss me ever providing any services for said companies.

                      Don't speak for FL (super obvious) but most corporate types I've dealt with do snicker at WF and don't consider it ever great except in MMO pitching. I could see some of those types thinking the articles ARE an improvement over regular posts

                      We dress things up too much more than they are or were and I think that causes another big disconnect.
                      So says "Mr. Steadfast in his Beliefs" LOL

                      Thats not even Flip Flopping that's just being a plain hypocritical sackless Coward and NOT being forthcoming to what your truly Believe in to those around you.
                      What a contradiction to be so embarrassed by a Place that you have overtly backed and still back today. That's just pathetic, MA.

                      And actually very suspicious as it would not be surprising that you know absolutely none of these people you claim to know and do business with. I could be wrong but I am inclined to think Iam smelling something of the doo-doo persuasion here . And my smelling abilities are usually spot on lol


                      MA, shape up or ship out. Your letting this place get to you, son :>)

                      You are spouting off about your personal ideologies one minute and then you come back another minute and spout off about other things that are totally incongruent to what you initially claimed

                      Bottom line : If you were such a great Asset to this large business world that you "Claim to know" and "Claim to do business with" and they truly marveled at your Talent they would figure that you know something they do not know about participating at the WF and be fine with it...or actually go their themselves to check out and see what the Great and Magnificent MA is raving about

                      Your fear of being found out shows your complete lack of confidence in your own abilities and your obvious insecurities and just your plain overall ineptness.
                      You need to have more Conviction with them their steadfast Beliefs..or maybe I shoud say them their unsteadfast beliefs lol
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                      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        So says "Mr. Steadfast in his Beliefs" LOL

                        Thats not even Flip Flopping that's just being a plain hypocritical sackless Coward and NOT being forthcoming to what your truly Believe in to those around you.


                        Poor baby boy blue. Still on the couch obviously hurting from having his head handed to him on that PC drivel about steadfastness in your beliefs being something to be avoided. Thankfully most of the people who have stood for something and changed the world have not subscribed to that weak nonsense. You know? People with some REAL moral fiber.

                        Now Poor Robert you are even laughably resorting to calling names as you hide behind your keyboard because real life face to face would render an even faster flip flop on your part (and a trembling lip) than usual - Too genuinely funny.

                        WF has never been my belief or cause . That would be mentally imbalanced. its just a forum not a great cause that I have to declare I am "in" on and give the win one for the gipper speech with violins playing in the background....like in your OP (lol).

                        What a contradiction to be so embarrassed by a Place that you have overtly backed and still back today. Actually ,very suspicious
                        Moah comedy. Bear in mind people. he is saying this to MA. Thats why I am actually chuckling as I type this. MA the person who has been rightfully accused of not having a whole lot of respect for many of the dearly departed and old guard community - but lol now he thinks..that I have been backing them. You just cant make up that level of comedy!!

                        I've backed fl's right to run their own site and in no small part because it sent others in the "community" i never ever backed packing. So much for hypocrisy. IF theres anyone that can say they never embraced all of WF that woudl be you beloved MA ( the one who cannot be named in your other forum). btw if theres a WSO offering a dictionary - buy it

                        So Captain Obvious I do agree with many business people who see this place the way they have. However I've seen here some other stuff besides that as well why I am still here.. No hypocrisy. Why in the world would I volunteer to a business man that I am looking to do business with that I hang out sometimes at a place he thinks is only MMO and sketchy? Only a stupid person would bring that up. WF isn't a belief or cause for me to bother. Sometimes your lack of business sense is even more glaring than it usually is. Take a bow..

                        spout off about other things that are totally incongruent to what you initially claimed
                        I have no doubt you find many things incongruent in your mind. goes with the territory of the incongruent logic in said location.

                        Bottom line : If you were such a great Asset to this large business world that you "Claim to know" and do business with
                        and where did I claim that oh waxing silly one??. Because I say I do business outside of WF and this has your jealousy all riled up so you are trying to create a strawman? You don;t have to be some fantastic world known great asset to do business outside of MMO. I mean I guess I if all you know of business is reading posts here and buying WSOs the whole thing must look so fantastic to you that someone would actually know businesses outside of IM. They must be claiming to be great to pull off such a feat.

                        ROFL

                        its this lack of business acumen here that makes FL decisions to hire outside writers quite rationale.

                        Congratulations - You've made their case for them! the defense rests no other witness need be called.
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                        • Profile picture of the author discrat
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post



                          Now Poor Robert you are even laughably resorting to calling names as you hide behind your keyboard because real life face to face would render an even faster flip flop on your part (and a trembling lip) than usual - Too genuinely funny.
                          LOL ...Toughen up ,son. I thought you were a real ball fan ( Or maybe just a Pretender?) That ain't no name calling. Shoot, being called a "sackless Coward" is quite the honor and only used as tough love words to get a good man motivated and moving forward


                          Hell, you think John Wooden or Pat Riley or the ol' Ball Coach would shy away from something like that or be offended by it lol
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                          Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                            Shoot, being called a "sackless Coward" is quite the honor
                            Did your mommy sell that to you?

                            Got to give her credit for knowing the child she could goof up with that spin
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                  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
                    Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                    Hi Mike,

                    If what you suggest is true, it makes sense.

                    If their true goal, all along, was to get rid of all us participating members, and replace us with paid posters, allowing more control over post topics and replies, using this once great forum as a platform to promote their core business. I presume that spamming the forums will become their new business model, right?

                    So, that seems to me to imply that FL bought WF for the express purpose of getting around the rules that prohibited their paid posters from posting spam. Is that what you are getting at?

                    I suppose a lot of SEO "workers" have been contracted to perform paid posting tasks. Do you think that FL bought WF to provide a posting destination for the army of paid posters hired at their marketplace?

                    Now that they have nearly cleared us all out, it's time to implement phase 2 of their strategy, launching paid posting campaigns?

                    With all the moves made so far it seems consistent with the goal of replacing real participation with an Astroturfing stategy where members are paid shills meant to draw search engine traffic to promote their main business. That would make participating members a "nuisance" rather than the "purpose" of the forum. I see your point, if that was always the goal then they are indeed on track.

                    And what about all the bot generated accounts that are posting random bits of text snippets on all of the recent threads, is that also part of their Astroturfing strategy too? They are not doing anything to block the bot posts and they certainly are not deleting them, so whats up with that? Is it some sort of thread bumping tactic?

                    Seems to me to just be a way of generating placeholders for spambot posts.

                    I have resisted thinking that all these forum killing practices were being implemented by the new forum operators, however the evidence is piling up faster and faster making me start to wonder.
                    Over my dead body aint gunna happen
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                      Over my dead body aint gunna happen
                      Your life and body are safe. The idea that FL would want to make this a place just for spambots and shill posting is too silly for words and had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. He just made that up in his head, tried and failed to equate it to what I said and is making zero sense.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        The idea that FL would want to make this a place just for spambots and shill posting is too silly for words
                        I guess you haven't looked at the main forum lately then.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

                          I guess you haven't looked at the main forum lately then.
                          I have. I am just not nonsensical enough to claim something is a spambot or shill because I might not like it.

                          What plagues the main forum the most is people attracted to the idea of no work, no sense, no time show me the money!

                          Who attracted those "flies to the sugars" FL? or the years of pushing that sugar in WSOs to collect $40 and $20 "bumps" long before FL?

                          That house was built and promoted by previous management. People can try and tag it all on FL but those people are illogical.
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                          • Profile picture of the author yukon
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            I have. I am just not nonsensical enough to claim something is a spambot or shill because I might not like it.

                            What plagues the main forum the most is people attracted to the idea of no work, no sense, no time show me the money!

                            Who attracted those "flies to the sugars" FL? or the years of pushing that sugar in WSOs to collect $40 and $20 "bumps" long before FL?

                            That house was built and promoted by previous management. People can try and tag it all on FL but those people are illogical.




                            There's some MAJOR denial going on here.

                            Pardon me while I man the lifeboat.




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                          • Profile picture of the author dburk
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            I have. I am just not nonsensical enough to claim something is a spambot or shill because I might not like it.
                            No one on this thread made a claim that something is a spambot or shill because you might not like it. Excepting you of course.

                            So I agree with you on that point, it is"nonsensical" to claim something is a spambot or a shill merely because you might not like it. We are totally in agreement on that point.

                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            What plagues the main forum the most is people attracted to the idea of no work, no sense, no time show me the money!
                            I agree with your general sentiment. Things really went downhill when the "Bum Marketing/4 hr work wk" books, related tools, courses and practices became popular. However, there were still plenty of real business people in other forums, especially the SEO/SEM forum.

                            Things were greatly improved when the CPA network/network marketing guys got their own forum. It was their own ecosystem in there and most participants in that forum didn't mix with other members, except occasionally in the main forum and on their own terms. Those were the hard core affiliate marketing guys and they had their own forum. It just worked, and made the overall forum boards better.

                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            Who attracted those "flies to the sugars" FL? or the years of pushing that sugar in WSOs to collect $40 and $20 "bumps" long before FL?

                            That house was built and promoted by previous management. People can try and tag it all on FL but those people are illogical.
                            Yes, that house was built by members, and previous management gave them their own forum which made things better, not perfect, but better. I don't expect perfection, but I do like to see improvement.

                            Now when new management took over one of the first things they did is reorganize the boards. How did that work out, as far as effect on member participation?

                            They completely removed SEM and advertising categories from the boards, and left it off for many months. That single move drove away 99.9% of all people with businesses that were serious enough to have advertising as part of their marketing.

                            When someone had a question about Search, Display, or Video advertising, they had to post it in the Off topic forum, else it would get moved to some random board where they were promptly scolded for posting in the wrong forum. Sure, a handful of them returned when months later they created a brand new board, but the damage was done and most of those members were lost forever.

                            The core of the successful entrepreneurs that participated in discussions on adverting never returned. probably unaware that a new board was created, or pissed because they were kicked off the forums because the search marketing and advertising guys were told to get lost , there is no place here for your discussions.

                            It was made obvious at that point that only affiliate marketers were welcomed. Traditional entrepreneurs and business owners were not welcomed. It was at that point the very character of participating members shifted radically toward becoming a forum where nearly all members bought and sold products exclusively from each other, outsiders were not welcomed unless they were here to buy from and sell to other members. Traditional entrepreneurs and business owners were drummed out of here leaving it to MMO folks who were never scolded or told to get out because they weren't here to talk about buying and selling to other members or using one of their get rich quick schemes.

                            One thing for sure is that membership had grown tremendously under the previous management, and began to decline as soon as the new management started reorganizing and removing large discussion categories, driving away members. Finally, after nearly a year they added back one of those large categories, but the entire character of the forum had been transformed at that point and for a while it looked like it might comeback.

                            Then the spambots arrived, actually they had been around a long time, but we could get those threads and posts deleted under previous management, under new management it seems to take a long time, and many are never removed at all. Even gibberish, gobbledygook get instant thank you comment spam posts, it has become absolutely surreal.

                            Now we have forum killing practice of article dumping officially condoned. And how has these things effected membership participation in discussions? You can try to blame it all on the previous owners, but the data doesn't support that.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                              Yes or course DB no one suggested FL wanted the forum to just be for shills or to cater to spambots. No one at all....lol....


                              Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                              Now that they have nearly cleared us all out, it's time to implement phase 2 of their strategy, launching paid posting campaigns?

                              With all the moves made so far it seems consistent with the goal of replacing real participation with an Astroturfing stategy where members are paid shills meant to draw search engine traffic to promote their main business.
                              .

                              Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                              They are not doing anything to block the bot posts and they certainly are not deleting them, so whats up with that? Is it some sort of thread bumping tactic?

                              Seems to me to just be a way of generating placeholders for spambot posts.



                              With each passing post of yours it becomes evident why they hired outside writers. Is it so hard to figure out?

                              THEY MUST THINK WHAT THEY GOT WAS BETTER THAT WHAT WAS ALREADY HERE.

                              Simple elementary with no placeholder spambot conspiracy needed and frankly some of the articles ARE better- the issue I will agree with others is articles do not a forum make. If they followed up those articles with discussion then wouldn't be that bad.

                              I say more articles from Rand, Neil and Backlinko. the spinning of the head of two members here just by itself would be great entertainment.


                              agree with your general sentiment. Things really went downhill when the "Bum Marketing/4 hr work wk" books, related tools, courses and practices became popular. However, there were still plenty of real business people in other forums, especially the SEO/SEM forum.
                              Who you foolin? those board were predominantly about link spamming. If you breathed anything against that you got a load of posts back and why did those forums start going down hill looooooong before FL? because Google slapped the snot out of link spam practices in Penguin and Panda updates, Within 6 months of Penguin names we had seen for years just started dropping off being preceded by thread after thread proclaiming SEO was dead.

                              Things were greatly improved when the CPA network/network marketing guys got their own forum.
                              Forums that catered to people with real cash and business sense will always do better and to this day those sections still do better. thats why offline and PPC usually have a few people who can rub two nickles together and talk some sense because they have been successful. However that doesn't change the fact that WF has predominantly been a MMO by showing other people how to make MMO for years. Those were always minority forums like the programming section is today.

                              Yes, that house was built by members, and previous management gave them their own forum
                              Nonsense....old management invented the WSO, perpetuated for years the make money online easily by taking cash for bumping WSOs promising quick riches. they even did a discrat and flip flopped on link spam tools. banning it and then bringing it back because sales went down. It really is hilarious the level of history revisionism you people are employing and HILARIOUS that people like Yukon are claiming me pointing out the obvious long history of WF having get rich quick schemes is BS.

                              Any ole newbie can go read the forum from 3 years ago and see the same stuff.

                              You guys should open a Friday Night Comedy club baby.......ROFL.

                              and began to decline as soon as the new management started reorganizing and removing large discussion categories, driving away members. .
                              Meh selective memory.As I recall there was far more people upset and quite the stir when they put restrictions on income claims (kinda left that one out eh?)

                              Anyway whine on.....won't change a thing. Very few people called WF great outside of people into MMO. This disconnect with history and blaming FL for it all is one of the great reasons why you and they can't get along now. You have a vision in your head nowhere near to historical reality.

                              the only one you have swayed is me - I now think they were even more justified in seeking outside writers than I thought before entering this thread. I wouldn't want to hire delusional people who blamed me for everything either.

                              On that more power to em.
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                              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                Ye


                                However that doesn't change the fact that WF has predominantly been a MMO by showing other people how to make MMO for years. Those were always minority forums like the programming section is today.



                                . It really is hilarious the level of history revisionism you people are employing and HILARIOUS that people like Yukon are claiming me pointing out the obvious long history of WF having get rich quick schemes is BS.


                                Anyway whine on.....won't change a thing. Very few people called WF great outside of people into MMO

                                On that more power to em.
                                I disagree. But I can only speak from my Experience. Joined MMO Niche in March 2014. From 2008 to 2014 is was strictly weight Loss, Mobility Products, Surveys, Spanish, Trading and a few smaller Niches for me.

                                Had over 1,000 Post up til that point and never had a Sig. until around 950 Posts. And I can say from my experience it was buzzing and bustling with Activity and Community Involvement from me and a bunch of small Niche Marketers and Non - MMO Authorities.

                                There was definitely a large group of Non- MMO people because I was deeply involved with those folks

                                A lot of them. I remember having conversations with Exrat, Jayextreme, PaulTaylor and others about Niche development and building Site Portfolios that had nothing to do with MMO.
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                                Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                  .

                                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                                  I disagree. But I can only speak from my Experience. Joined MMO Niche in March 2014. From 2008 to 2014 is was strictly weight Loss, Mobility Products, Surveys, Spanish, Trading and a few smaller Niches for me............A lot of them. I remember having conversations with Exrat, Jayextreme, PaulTaylor and others about Niche development and building Site Pro-folios that had nothing to do with MMO.
                                  Of course there were people here that were not into MMO. there still are. Doesn't change the fact that this was predominanty a MMO board (I'd say at least 10 to 1)

                                  If you people cant be honest enough to admit something so basic and clear as day from looking at past threads as to actually claim that FL made this a predominantly MMO board then you deserve to be trusted by them for nothing.

                                  Shucks i get entirely now why they went outside WF to get writers. At this point I would have done the same thing especially after reading this thread

                                  its just blame blame blame and the good old days were all that and FL made it all bad. Its all just delusional -although you started out positive but then theres always that flip flop thingy you subscribe to.

                                  As for the part you bolded....living truth. Citing people here at WF makes no difference Out in the real world very few people called WF great. In fact many of the most successful "big name" marketers (even in MMO) left here AGES ago and never looked back.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                    .



                                    Of course there were people here that were not into MMO. there still are. Doesn't change the fact that this was predominanty a MMO board (I'd say at least 10 to 1)

                                    If you people cant be honest enough to admit something so basic and clear as day from looking at past threads as to actually claim that FL made this a predominantly MMO board then you deserve to be trusted by them for nothing.

                                    Shucks i get entirely now why they went outside WF to get writers. At this point I would have done the same thing especially after reading this thread

                                    its just blame blame blame and the good old days were all that and FL made it all bad. Its all just delusional

                                    As for the part you bolded....living truth. Citing people here at WF makes no difference Out in the real world very few people called WF great. In fact many of the most successful "big name" marketers (even in MMO) left here AGES ago and never looked back.
                                    You're right....There is no question it was predominantly MMO. But I was just referring that there were a number, actually a large number , who were exclusively non-mmo and a combo of both.

                                    I just guess I remember those people because that is all I knew back then or was aware of. But it probably was 10-1
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                            I don't think all the us vs. them or always talking about the good old days while ignoring the bad of the good old days is good for anyone.

                            I also am on record in a bunch of places of being supportive of FL and hoping that the forum thrives. At the same time, I liked the old management, for the most part. I'm pro-WF no matter who owns it. I criticized and helped/supported before and I do that today as well.

                            Having said that, I want to make a couple points.

                            1. Go to the main forum and then go to page 1000 plus. While you still see "how do I make enough money to pay my rent by noon tomorrow" type posts my perception from browsing is that they were fewer. There are also a lot less threads like http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...et-market.html. The thread title is "internet market." The OP is "how to use in internet marketing?"

                            2. Another thing you'll notice is that, for the most part, English is understood across the board. That's simply not the case now. Yes, there have always been non-native speakers but nowhere like it is now. I'm also on record as not being one against a non-native speaker just because they are non-native.

                            3. I saw somewhere soon after the buyout that this was a marketing forum that did no marketing for itself. This is basically true. Yet, FL in an attempt to grow the forum and maximize their investment started doing things like running FB ads. I know because they were following me around. Of course, they wanted to grow it - that's what most businesses do.

                            Therefore, while it is true that there was a base product here with its own pros and cons, much/some of what is happening today is a direct result of FL's actions. They ran the ads. They chose the demographic to advertise too. Now that many of the people that were here 3 years ago are not here now, FL made its bed with its advertising efforts. The old regulars have been placed with the new regulars. Maybe they are happy with that. If so, so be it.

                            Now, I don't believe that FL is intentionally sabotaging anything. They are making changes, they are attempting to increase the level of discussion, they are bringing out new products, they are getting more involved in the day-to-day discussion, etc.

                            But they wouldn't be doing all that after 2 years of not doing those things unless some change was needed. Change isn't sought if it's not needed and it's clear they are trying to change things for the better. That's a fact.

                            Mark

                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            I have. I am just not nonsensical enough to claim something is a spambot or shill because I might not like it.

                            What plagues the main forum the most is people attracted to the idea of no work, no sense, no time show me the money!

                            Who attracted those "flies to the sugars" FL? or the years of pushing that sugar in WSOs to collect $40 and $20 "bumps" long before FL?

                            That house was built and promoted by previous management. People can try and tag it all on FL but those people are illogical.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                              1. Go to the main forum and then go to page 1000 plus.
                              Just did

                              Main Internet Marketing Discussion Forum - Page 1092

                              and then I went to the front page right before posting this - no big difference in quantity or quality in reference to MMO. Same MMO themes. the main difference as I have already admitted is language and cultural differences. I especially don't think many get the cultural differences. A lot of people from asia/India live in poverty and they see images of what they consider great wealth here - so when WF pushes easy money in WSOs they think there's a pot of gold they can get. seems even more realistic to them given they see movies and pictures that indicate great wealth in US and the UK.

                              How anyone is going to blame FL for that message that has attracted this kind of thinking for years before is beyond me. Did FL direct that kind of traffic here? yep thats a fair point but it didn't change the message that was being sent out just the people who were hearing that message.

                              2. Another thing you'll notice is that, for the most part, English is understood across the board. That's simply not the case now.
                              Very true - I was one of the first to raise that issue in this thread but it doesn't change the MMO history of WF. Thats my point. I agree and am at the front saying people who cannot speak well in the same language cannot have a great dialogue. Thats just common sense not discrimination as one strange thinking person tried to claim in another place


                              Bottom line - what they have done and what they won't do tells you what they are willing to live with according to their priorities. I see no hope at all on the horizon that the poor english speakers on this forum are going to have anything offered that will make the place more understandable to them or them to us but my point is that doesn't change what was here before and make it into some delusional fairy tale world where it was the great forum for solid business that people are pretending it was.

                              Am I going to be upset at that language issue not being dealt with? Nope. Not my site. I accept they have different priorities and I didn't walk down an aisle and pledge my life to them. So why do I need to moan and whine on their own site they have different priorities? Theres the whole wide internet for me to find something in line with my priorities and as marketers If I we don't find anything - great! opportunity is knocking!

                              Marketers in particular should never need to whine on someone else's site.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    It looks like the search id links still won't work for others when a search id is posted (at least many/most of them).
    See the search strings in these two posts in addition to the one I posted previously.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...##post10669513

    http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...##post10736700
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      It will cost you at least $199 to access the data from that company.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I was curious to see if WF would do anything about the "outing" of a member here who WORKED FOR THEM. You would think they would have someone's back when that person was working for them - but apparently not.

      I didn't like -and don't like - the "article submission" forum format that began here at the end of May.

      But Neshaword is one of the ONLY people posting those articles who has made any attempt to fit in or contribute to conversations here. He has not posted at all since this thread made him a target. That's not right.

      I've known about this 5 star rating for some time - but I don't think trying to embarrass someone in public is acceptable. I don't think hiring someone to write for you and not supporting them is acceptable either.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


        But Neshaword is one of the ONLY people posting those articles who has made any attempt to fit in or contribute to conversations here. He has not posted at all since this thread made him a target. That's not right.

        I've known about this 5 star rating for some time - but I don't think trying to embarrass someone in public is acceptable. I don't think hiring someone to write for you and not supporting them is acceptable either.
        I don't think anyone in this thread has embarrassed Neshaworld. The only discussion that came up briefly with his name was more about who hired him. He did nothing wrong and I doubt anyone here would think he did anything wrong in writing articles. He got a good review too so his rep benefits from that. As for FL - they barely read these threads through so assigning a blame based on not responding is more than likely off.

        Just curious though - How come when MikeF "made him a target" and outed him in this thread

        http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...#/post10714385 [Post 20]

        a month or so ago it was so acceptable and right that you thanked the post which was entirely about outing him as being hired but today what you thanked is now unacceptable and wrong?

        Situational ethics based on whose doing the posting?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      No - I changed my mind as I watched his attempts to become a valid part of the forum here.

      It seems to be a foreign concept - but there are people who think about situations and re-examine their ideas...and actually change their minds. I think for myself and occasionally contradict myself - would rather do that than spout the same mantras over and over.

      I don't have a party line here - I don't have an agenda here - I don't need anyone's approval or admiration or recognition here. I will, however, say what I think and sometimes my view on a subject or a person...changes.

      At the time, Neshaword had claimed NOT to be writing for FL - I had pointed out he was wearing a Freelancer.com t-shirt in his forum photo - he changed the photo and claimed not to be an employee.

      What I thought last month may not be how I see something today. My opinions and viewpoint may differ from one month to another due to changing circumstances.

      I think he was embarrassed and I also think it was unkind. I don't need to report to anyone about what I think or justify what I say. I evolve...try to keep up.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        No - I changed my mind as I watched his attempts to become a valid part of the forum here
        Thats quite fine but you stated that as a general rule and/ethos. its the kind of ethic that people develop from a younger age. If you were slower to develop such ethos then I am gratified you at least came to it later.

        At the time, Neshaword had claimed NOT to be writing for FL - I had pointed out he was wearing a Freelancer.com t-shirt in his forum photo - he changed the photo and claimed not to be an employee.
        So his track record would allow someone to point it out now based on his previous denial (although THAT would be more making him a target that what was in this thread previously). What you claim exonerates you on the same basis would exonerate the person or people who brought it up in this thread since that track record is the same. Can't change the past.

        What I thought last month may not be how I see something today. My opinions and viewpoint may differ from one month to another due to changing circumstances.
        Then perhaps with more thought you might realize the self defeating nature of your two last posts. You have now unwittingly raised the first claim that was actually against the poor fellow - that he was dishonest. Before your post it was just that he wrote some articles and was paid - hardly embarrassing. You've outed him in this thread as denying the truth and raised a character target issue where No one had done so before despite your claims of them being wrong.

        I realize this whole ethos of not outing or targeting people is only a few weeks old but for Nesha based on what you just outed he might be thinking

        with friend like these who needs..........

        P.S. I had thought when you said try and keep up you were speaking to me - not muttering to yourself. My apologies
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        No - I changed my mind as I watched his attempts to become a valid part of the forum here.

        It seems to be a foreign concept - but there are people who think about situations and re-examine their ideas...and actually change their minds. I think for myself and occasionally contradict myself - would rather do that than spout the same mantras over and over.


        What I thought last month may not be how I see something today. My opinions and viewpoint may differ from one month to another due to changing circumstances.

        I think he was embarrassed and I also think it was unkind. I don't need to report to anyone about what I think or justify what I say. I evolve...try to keep up.
        It's called being honest with yourself and being honest with the ones around you. Kay, I cannot tell you how many times I have changed my Mind back and forth on Capital Punishment. People have chided me saying that I need to have strong Convictions one way or the other. Sorry, but that would not be being honest with myself.

        Only fools are steadfast in their Beliefs even if they know they don't Believe in that Belief anymore, but do so because of Ego
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        Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          It's called being honest with yourself and being honest with the ones around you. Kay,
          If you only do it with some and not with others its no virtue whatsoever its called biased

          I cannot tell you how many times I have changed my Mind back and forth on Capital Punishment. People have chided me saying that I need to have strong Convictions one way or the other. Sorry, but that would not be being honest with myself.
          and the same people are just being honest that you are indicisive and don't know where you stand. Why dress up indicisiveness and not knowing what you believe as a virtue? Capital punishment has been with us for our entire lives. The ins and outs are not new so you think about them and come to a decision. If you flip flop then you flip fllop - its not a virtue. its just flip flopping.

          Only fools are steadfast in their Beliefs
          Depends on the belief. I'll be steadfast for the rest of my life in the belief that all men are created equal, that woman working the same job should get the same pay, that the poor should be looked after and that ethics and morality are not determined by who you know or who your friends are just to name a few. I think anyone that says only fools are steadfast in their beliefs is well in fact being foolish and ilogical.

          Its just PC gibberish that sounds good and is in itself a belief which makes the whole statement self defeating
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I was speaking to myself...because I know I have a sense of humor....and have realized it's a rare commodity here these days.

      I don't really need my posts analyzed - I didn't write them to please or impress - and in general don't much care what people think of me. See ya!
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      And what exactly is traffic supposed to be looking for when they come to an internet marketing forum?

      Are you looking for Martian traffic, or what?
      Yes, l was, but that experiment has failed. Gone are the days of 1000 view per post for a martian subject.

      OT doesn't necessary mean, IMOT, which is good since IM usually means FB.

      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      It is depressing that the traffic on an IM forum is not interested in much else than IM?

      Yeah, that is just awful. Turn the lights off. Let's close it down.

      EDIT: Oh goddmanit. I just agreed with Don.
      Yes, but l forgive you.

      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Sure does . You are not fooling anyone. You been running FG nonstop the last few weeks in Multiple threads. You even PMed me about him - easy on the stalking

      And where in the original post showing a decline in ranking is there anything about a specific traffic number? so silly. This thread is about, in part , general decline of the forum and yes in terms of traffic. So what? no one can show a decline unless they show a specific number? No one made the claim anywhere that you can know by how much but its obvious to everyone that traffic is down.

      Stop junking up a thread because of a personal agenda. and that goes for the side kick in this endeavor Mki (or whoever because we both know no newb is spending most their time arguing forum politics like a senior person)

      back on topic people
      Loves statistics, explains the endless crap we have to scroll through.

      I like numbers as well, in a gambling fashion, but am not going to put up 30 years worth of Lotto results to prove a point.

      As fof IM, l have spent 2.5 years doing every frickin boring aspect of web design possible, as well as pretty much everything else.

      Almost 9 years all up, so, no l am not coming here, to talk about that. I can talk for some time about graphics, on related forums, but that becomes a bit dull eventually.

      So a forum that only has Im related stuff, in the OT will become deadly dull, and drive away anyone who is left, apart from the ones that like it.

      A forums health is shown by how varied their OT is, and the reaction to non-IM related material.

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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        OT doesn't necessary mean, IMOT, which is good since IM usually means FB.
        As long as the Martian lovers are buyers of IM products and in need of IM information then it's all good. If you want to flood OT with non-buyers and non-marketers that's not so good.

        Loves statistics, explains the endless crap we have to scroll through.
        You call statistics directly related to your own statement crap, and you lobby for more Martian lovers to post to the forum. Got it.

        So a forum that only has Im related stuff, in the OT will become deadly dull, and drive away anyone who is left, apart from the ones that like it.
        The OT is not why people come to this place. Maybe a few gossipers do, but the OT is probably more of a problem for WF than it is helpful. The OT becoming dull(er) will not drive away all the traffic that is left. God golly, molly. You just missed the mark by a light year or two.

        A forums health is shown by how varied their OT is, and the reaction to non-IM related material.
        That's just about the funniest thing I have read in a month.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

          That's the funniest thing I have read in a month.
          Its like saying the non science stuff written on a science board is what makes it valuable for a science forum but I guess he means diversity will tend to come out in other areas and just wrote that wrong,
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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I think I know what you are saying but its only because Im here is dull and non innovative. In the years I have been here its basically throw links at a page to rank in SEO or build a page to capture emails and slam the list to make money and or try and get people to buy from traffic coming from facebook or twitter

            3 basic things. the end.

            The list and spamming it is all that IM here has come up with in the better part of a decade.

            People talk about FL and WF going down hill but at least part of it is - it gets boring as watching paint dry reading people trying to dress up the same old dog in new hats when even the hats aren't really new.

            In that same time other marketers elsewhere have developed apps on tablets, phones, created sites that do more than wordpress and the internet innovates in leaps and bounds every year.

            Good night we are in 2016 and people here are still calling PDF s "products". Its like going to a site built in the 80s with animated gifs. Yeah its boring because the average Imer at WF is committed to doing nothing more with the internet than sales pages and list slamming.

            We saw that in spades with SEO. the SEO section was already waaaay down in participation with people we had seen for years gone.

            Why before FL took over?

            Simple. google updated its ranking algo so that link spamming doesn't work like it used to. At least half the board there dwindled off because the attitude was - if I can't link spam then SEO is dead and I am out.

            No innovation.I'll give you this. At least martian conspiracies have new things to look at every now and again - so on that level I get why its more interesting to you
            Ok, l got out of the IM main discussion years ago, since l got fed up with constant newbies, asking how do l make money.

            Then after telling them the hard truth, which usually takes a good half an hour of writing, they usually disappear, or crap on that this shiny object will make their dreams come true.

            Some take it on board and thank the helper, but that is rare.

            I have to admit that l asked that question, and get some resentment, as well as stupid comebacks, but at least l thanked the legitimate posters.


            But oh, well, three days and 20 views, with only silly comebacks, (mars thread) for the most part.

            I used to get 150 to 200+ views by now with a few more remarks, I didn't want to believe that the WF, was as dead as it seems, but now....

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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

            They've only got themselves to blame for that.
            Most of the people capable of posting anything interesting have been
            run off the forum and been replaced by droves of junk posters
            whose IQ's barely match their shoe size.
            Pretty soon they'll be posting articles to each other,
            because there will be no one left who can read them.
            I would say that it is at the bottom of the barrel, (l know, l came here to post, but l mainly came here to check on my Mars thread).

            1 View since yesterday,........if l set up a $10 a month website, l would get at least 1-2 views a day!

            I have posted here for more than 5 years, and never got a result that bad. What others are saying about turning the WF into a FL derivative site, is probably correct.

            And most are nuts about freelancing or IM, and not much else.

            Newbies bumping ancient threads, and leaving IM threads here, isn't going to turn this forum around.

            It might work on some naive newbies, but seasoned, LOL!

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          • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
            I think FL is actively trying to make things better to avoid a further decline. They are trying to stimulate discussion. The mods and admin are getting more involved in posting, asking for input, responding to input, etc. They've hired a community manager. They've fixed some technical things quickly after being reported. They fixed some of the rules. They are trying to stimulate discussion. And they say they have a huge new thing coming in the next few days that I am anxious to hear about.
            But they are now also deleting oodles of messages that criticize their policies or their promotions. This is not smart and it's the one thing that for me could drive me away forever.

            I have actually learned quite a lot here, even from the newbies. But if participation is now predicated on being on board with the management's approach, that is not the kind of place where you can get to hear all sides of an issue.

            Marcia Yudkin
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Good thing the OP asked this question before the last three days or the answers might be more colorful ....I'll bet a lot of hold out minds have been changed
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            • Profile picture of the author kilgore
              Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

              But they are now also deleting oodles of messages that criticize their policies or their promotions. This is not smart and it's the one thing that for me could drive me away forever.

              I have actually learned quite a lot here, even from the newbies. But if participation is now predicated on being on board with the management's approach, that is not the kind of place where you can get to hear all sides of an issue.
              Allow me to play devil's advocate here:

              Think about your own businesses. Would you let your own sales pages get overwhelmed with criticisms about your own policies and promotions? Maybe you would, but I sure wouldn't. I might let some things slip in to allow for some difference of opinion, but for the most part, I'd do what Freelancer did and clean things up. And this is especially true if (a) there were a lot of posts about the same issue and (b) I felt that the motivations of the people posting had more to do with making me look bad than actually purchasing my products.

              I'm not saying the criticisms were wrong. But if was my sales thread about my new product launch that was suddenly overwhelmed by (just as a completely random example) criticism about some minor giveaway, I'd prune that too. I'd likely leave one or two posts up to allow the issue to be raised, but I'd certainly not let the criticism dominate the whole thread. All it would do would turn people off and distract them from the questions and discussion that are going to help people buy my product.

              I'm also not saying that the people doing the criticizing actually are about making Freelancer look bad. But I also think that given past history, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Freelancer to think so.

              Of course, there's a risk to deleting comments as Freelancer has done. There's definitely potential for backlash, as we see right here. But as someone who runs a business, you have to weigh the backlash against the damage to your product launch. It's obvious that in Freelancer's calculations they think that the positive they'll get from deleting these comments outweighs any potential backlash. And though I'm naturally not privy to Freelancer's numbers, in my own experience running my business they are almost certainly right.

              What I'm trying to point out is that to us, the Warrior Forum may feel like a community, but to "Freelancer Technology Pty Limited" the Warrior Forum is just a business -- and probably one of their smaller and least profitable ones at that. So while you may care about the Warrior Forum, the Warrior Forum does not care about you. (Specific members of the Warrior Forum may care about you -- but that's a whole different ballgame.)

              So to answer Robert's original question: Am I in or am I out? Neither. Freelancer has no loyalty to me; I owe them none. We have a transactional relationship, so as long they continue to meet my needs, I'll keep coming back. When that doesn't happen anymore, I'll spend my time elsewhere.
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

                Think about your own businesses. Would you let your own sales pages get overwhelmed with criticisms about your own policies and promotions? Maybe you would, but I sure wouldn't. I might let some things slip in to allow for some difference of opinion, but for the most part, I'd do what Freelancer did and clean things up. And this is especially true if (a) there were a lot of posts about the same issue and (b) I felt that the motivations of the people posting had more to do with making me look bad than actually purchasing my products.
                Not every post in that thread was from a previously hostile member; some were making genuinely constructive points. But if it were my business, I'd also consider the possibility that even the antagonistic members could sometimes have a valid point to make. I might well end up deleting all the posts, but with such a (seemingly) important project, I'd mitigate the risk of PR damage by adding an acknowledgement (and thanks) to those members who took the trouble to post.

                In the meantime I'd suspend that particular bonus, pending a legal check. And certainly tackle those typos.
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              • Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

                Allow me to play devil's advocate here...
                That is a fair point, but there was no requirement on the parta WF to allow comments.

                That would be like Walmart introducin' a Rate Our Cashiers scheme an' offerin' customers the optiona huggin' the gals sat pricin' up the goodies or punchin' 'em hard in the chops — an' then settin' the dogs on the empowered pugilists.

                Prolly WF shoulda followed Walmart's example an' jus' piled up the tinsa Great Value sweetcorn by the checkout.

                I frickin' love sweetcorn.
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                • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                  Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

                  but there was no requirement on the parta WF to allow comments.
                  This was a discussion forum the last time I checked.

                  FYI, comments are allowed on sales threads, and in-fact comments were allowed for awhile on that thread. They originally tried pruning the negative comments, and leaving, for the most part, all positive sounding replies. An old forum trick and a dirty one at that.

                  Vendors have repeatedly asked for the ability to disallow or delete comments on sales threads and they have been rebuffed every time...including relatively recently.

                  It's also good policy to follow your own rules when you post an offer. I did not realize WF would be pitching black hat tools that violate rule 4.10 when they run their own offers.

                  Why would any professional company that does not allow black hat tools pitch a tool designed to steal thousands of sites full of other people's content?
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                  • Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                    This was a discussion forum the last time I checked.

                    FYI, comments are allowed on sales threads, and in-fact comments were allowed for awhile on that thread. They originally tried pruning the negative comments, and leaving, for the most part, all positive sounding replies. An old forum trick and a dirty one at that.

                    Vendors have repeatedly asked for the ability to disallow or delete comments on sales threads and they have been rebuffed every time...including relatively recently.

                    It's also good policy to follow your own rules when you post an offer. I did not realize WF would be pitching black hat tools that violate rule 4.10 when they run their own offers.

                    Why would any professional company that does not allow black hat tools pitch a tool designed to steal thousands of sites full of other people's content?
                    There is a worlda difference between a portrait an' a mirror.

                    I figure WF shoulda run this offer as a portrait -- sum meticulously crafted offerin' hung up to attract eyeballs.

                    Instead, they proffered a mirror.

                    Look in a mirror, an' you may view any image you wanna see.

                    All you gotta accept is sum dimension warpa perception.

                    In that sense, evry open text box is a mirror -- an opportunity to reflect on what has been presented.

                    WF got a buncha stuff they didn't much like -- not all venomously destructive imho -- so they pulled down the mirror an' hung up a portrait.

                    FYI.
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              • Profile picture of the author dburk
                Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

                What I'm trying to point out is that to us, the Warrior Forum may feel like a community, but to "Freelancer Technology Pty Limited" the Warrior Forum is just a business -- and probably one of their smaller and least profitable ones at that. So while you may care about the Warrior Forum, the Warrior Forum does not care about you. (Specific members of the Warrior Forum may care about you -- but that's a whole different ballgame.)
                Hi kilgore,

                That seems to be the root of the problem.

                The WF is a place where a community was built by previous management. This community was built by providing a favorable infrastructure, the forum software, and careful nurturing of the communities needs via forum rules and moderation. The business model was created to as a way to monetize the traffic that comes to this forum. This monetization provides revenue to cover expenses as well as to provide a profit to the owners.

                The Owners of the Warrior Forum own the company that operates the forum, they do not own the community. The community is free to come and go as they please, and only do so when they feel welcome and gain some sort of desirable benefit by being here. Hence the community that exists here is the company's customers.

                Do I have to tell you what happens to a business when it stops caring about it's customers?

                Let's just say that a business that fosters a loyal customer base by caring for the customer's needs, suddenly stops caring and begins looking at their customer's not as people, but as transactions, well that business is heading rapidly toward nonexistence.

                Isn't that exactly what we see happening here at this forum?

                Setting aside the feelings of the community (the customers), let's look at the company as a business. The business no longer cares for it's customers' needs and customers leave in droves. Not a sustainable business model if you ask me.

                Would you invest in such a business?

                The people that are complaining are indeed the ones that care about the forum, those that don't care have long since left. While you, and the management of the forum, may see them as a just a bunch of complainers' they are what is left of the community, the ones that not only purchase your products and services, they are also what draws the new customers here that purchase your products and services.

                As a forum about marketing, it makes total sense that we should see discussions about the marketing success, and failures of businesses in general, and especially about the business that manages this very forum. It is 100% on topic.
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                • Profile picture of the author kilgore
                  Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                  Do I have to tell you what happens to a business when it stops caring about it's customers?
                  You're right, of course. But it's also true that a business can't be all things to all people and there are always going to be people who aren't pleased with certain aspects of your business. This is especially true if the business going through a major change such as a change in ownership and/or strategic direction -- both of which seem to be the case here. Thus, businesses need to focus on their core customers, even if by doing so they risk alienating other customers.

                  So now there's the question of who exactly are the Warrior Forum's core customers? In the past, the WF's core customer may well have been people like you and others who have invested so much time and thought into building this community. But is that still true? I'm not really sure.

                  It seems to me that there's been a concerted shift by Freelancer from trying to serve the needs and desires of long time, experienced members to attracting new, inexperienced members. My guess is there's more money there -- after all, if you already have a successful business, do you really need to buy access to the War Room or the Vault? I sure don't!

                  It's not a strategy without risk, of course. After all, if you don't have experienced members, who is going to answer your questions? But let's face it, most of the questions asked are so basic that people who know next to nothing about marketing can answer them just by repeating what has already been said 10,000 times -- in fact, that's exactly what happens on most posts. And you can add to them the people who have a financial motivation for participating -- though I'm personally skeptical that forum marketing is a time effective strategy (but we can save that discussion for another time).

                  My point is that while you and others like you may not be happy with the way things are going at the WF, whether or not it makes business sense for the WF to worry about the happiness of customers like you is not as cut and dried as you seem to be suggesting.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by kilgore View Post


                I'm not saying the criticisms were wrong. But if was my sales thread about my new product launch that was suddenly overwhelmed by (just as a completely random example) criticism about some minor giveaway, I'd prune that too.
                So then to more fully understand your point - you determine the seriousness of a criticism based up on the percentage of the offer the "criticism" applies to not the "criticism" itself?

                So if you are selling a car and it offered a bonus spare tire known to blown up since it was just a small part of the offer of the car you'd just delete the notifications of people telling you that?

                Thats an interesting perspective but as long as we are just stating what we would do

                I'd go in another direction - address the issue of the tire.,leave it there and then perhaps delete subsequent notifications which I would bet would be less because I addressed the issue of the tire. I wouldn't do that just out of humanitarian and moral interests but because I have yet to see any party in any country on the planet side step the repercussions of an offer based on the relative size of the defective part. If that ever happened (it won't in my lifetime) manufacturers the world over would rejoice.

                BTW if you feel that way then this discussion might interest you in terms of consistency

                http://www.warriorforum.com/suggesti...arassment.html

                I mean you can make the argument others paying for ad space should not have the privlege and you should but its quite the line to dance with
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                • Profile picture of the author kilgore
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                  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

                    There are three issues here that need to be unpacked. First, is whether the criticism need to be addressed and corrected. Second, is how much criticism to allow to publicly take up space on your site, social media properties, etc. Third, there is the question of how you communicate to your customers about the criticism.

                    Issue One: Should the criticism be addressed?
                    This forum has rules - black hat tools are not allowed to be sold here. Rule 4.10 specifically as well as the site ToC.

                    If you don't want the criticism of violating your own rules, and you don't want to be criticized for selling tools used to pirate content, then don't run offers that include tools designed to steal content.

                    Issue Two: How much criticism should they have kept on the thread?
                    They should have pulled the Wayback tool from the offer once the first criticism was raised/seen and the problem would have been solved.

                    Applying this framework to the Warrior Forum
                    So now let's apply this framework to this particular instance of Freelancer deleting comments in the Vault thread (an instance which I readily admit I haven't followed close enough to give a very informed opinion).
                    Well, that thread was about the worst thread to delete posts on, and the posts that were deleted were the worst types of posts to delete. Posts that pointed out FL/WF is giving away access to a tool that is used to pirate content. Those posts not only pointed out WF is violating their own rules, but they also warned unsuspecting buyers that the tool may get you into a bunch of trouble if you use it.


                    Issue One: Should the criticism be addressed?
                    Honestly, I have a hard time being objective about this since I find most Internet Marketing products silly. But I do see the point about the Wayback machine tool pretty much being a black hat tool. So in this case, I do think it makes sense to pull that tool and replace it with something of equal value. But maybe Freelancer doesn't see it the same way. Maybe they don't see it as a black hat tool or maybe they just don't think it's important (from my understanding it's only going to 100 people, after all). It's hardly as cut and dry as giving away a tire that may potentially cause a fatal accident anyway.
                    It's cut and dry. Their offer violates WF rule 4.10. Let's take a look at the numbers --> 100 people x 3000 sites x 500 copied pages each is 150,000,000 copied pages from a single limited WF bonus offer.



                    Issue Two: How much criticism should they have kept on the thread?
                    I see two possibilities here. One was suggested by Princess Balestra above: don't allow any comments (good or bad) at all. Alternatively, I don't think it's necesarily a bad thing that they've pruned some of the discussion. Did they prune too much? Again, I just don't feel I've followed this issue close enough to give an informed opinion. But the right answer is probably somewhere between not letting any through and letting it all through. Even given the risks of deleting comments, it's reasonable to not what your sales thread hijacked by discussion of a relatively minor part of the sales package (though obviously this assumes you agree that it's a relatively minor part of the package!)
                    This is a discussion forum...of course criticism should be allowed...especially when an offer violates the rules of the forum and the tool offered is used to violate the law. In-fact I believe they invited constructive criticism on that thread at one point, if I remember correctly.

                    If you don't warn members/readers they are buying a tool that could potentially sack them as much as $150,000 per individual violation of copyright you are not doing your duty as a member and member mod. The buying public needs to be properly informed of things like this on an ecom site.

                    What did WF do instead? They tried to hide the fact that the tool is used to steal content, and hide the fact the tool violates their own rules on what can be offered here.

                    Issue Three: How to address the criticism
                    Here's where I think Freelancer really messed up. The should have communicated better. Given the number of comments -- and given the people who were commenting -- responding to the concerns raised could have gone a long way. Not necessarily agreeing with them, but at least responding. For instance just saying something like "Thanks for all your comments, we're looking into the freebie being offered to determine whether it meets the high standards of the Warrior Forum" might have bought some time. Even saying, "Thanks for your feedback, but we disagree with your assessment of this freebie. We think it's a great product that will add a lot of value to a lot of businesses" might not have made people happy, but might have at least defused some of the negative feelings.
                    They should have removed the Wayback tool after the first comment or two that pointed out it is used to pirate content and that it violates the rules on what can be offered here.

                    So I guess that's a (very) long-winded way of saying that no, it's not only about the percentage of the offer the criticism applies to. But I do think that's a relevant detail. I'd be much more concerned with criticism (whether justified or not) about a strategic business priority than a bonus offer. Obviously if it was a serious issue with a bonus offer -- such as the literally life or death matter in your tire example -- that would change the calculation. But I'm not sure that this example really qualifies under that criteria.
                    It's pretty clear that WF is not worried about it's members getting popped for copyright violations, and they are not too worried about members having their content stolen with tools sold or given away by WF. Furthermore, they are not worried about following their own rules on what can be sold or given away here.

                    This was all made quite clear by the #1 bonus offered with the "vault" and the deletion of all the posts that pointed out the tool is used to steal content, and the deletion of posts that pointed out tools like the Wayback content stealer are not allowed to be sold on here by members.

                    Not to mention the fact that the vault content should have probably went to the War Room anyway. But we can save that perfectly legit idea/point for another discussion, I suppose.
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                    • Profile picture of the author kilgore
                      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                      This is a discussion forum...of course criticism should be allowed...especially when an offer violates the rules of the forum and the tool offered is used to violate the law. In-fact I believe they invited constructive criticism on that thread at one point, if I remember correctly.

                      If you don't warn members they are receiving a tool that could potentially sack them as much as $150,000 per individual violation of copyright you are not doing your duty as a member and member mod. The buying public needs to be properly informed of things like this on an ecom site.

                      What did WF do instead? They tried to hide the fact that the tool is used to steal content, and hide the fact the tool violates their own rules on what can be offered here.
                      For the sake of brevity, I've only quoted a small part of your post, but I think your post in its entirety is a pretty compelling argument for the way the WF should have responded to this incident.

                      One place I do want to push back -- if only a little -- is the first sentence I quoted: "This is a discussion forum...of course criticism should be allowed".

                      I've been a member of several discussion forums where -- like the Warrior Forum -- they have space at the top of the forum reserved for special threads started by Admins. But in these forums -- unlike on the Warrior Forum -- no community responses were allowed. That space was purely for one-way communication. So it is at least possible to successfully not allow comments in certain places on a discussion forum.

                      The problem in this case -- and your comment really brings it to the fore -- is a problem of expectations. In the Warrior Forum, the community has always been allowed to comment; and in this case, the Warrior Forum did allow at least certain comments through. And so they set up the expectation -- whether intentionally or not -- that their sales thread was a valid place to raise concerns. Moreover, there was no communication to manage these expectations. They could have easily said, "While we value your feedback, please send all your concerns by email or post them to the Suggestion forum." (Though by doing so, they're setting up the new expectations that they'll respond to those concerns on those channels.) So based on these expectations, it's hardly surprising or unreasonable that members of the community would be unhappy when their posts were deleted.

                      They key, I think, boils down to consistency. Consistency and being willing to play by your own rules. As Kay mentioned, this is Freelancer's site and they have every right to break their own rules if they feel like it. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. And the backlash from the community on this issue is a perfect example of what happens when you fail to play by your own rules.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              I agree with that assessment...but I'd go a bit farther.


              Freelancer made it's own problems on this last deal. In recent months, there have been times when FL rolled out a change and asked "what do you think?" or "what are your suggestions". In EVERY case there were problems (often minor) with the new feature - glitches or unintended consequences or whatever....and that led to critiques and to posts removed. Several times mods allowed 1-2 people to hijack those threads arguing with each other and threads spun out of control.


              If you are running a business where you manage what is said on your forum - that's fine. But learn from your own mistakes. If you don't care what people think - don't ask them what they think. If you don't have a solid offer that is new, different and ethical - just run your sales pages and send out your emails and don't ask for critiques. If you want members to back you up - do what Allen did with the War Room and install a dozen or so respected members into the new section so they can speak from experience and help back you up.


              I fully understand why owners would not want people trashing their new features and ideas and sections - but the way in which FL introduces change is a big part of their problem and they don't seem to get that. How many times does it take to realize maybe you need a bit more finesse when you ask people to pay and pay again.


              For a time - being a "War Room Member" was a requirement to run a WSO and a bit of a status symbol to some new members. You could clearly see who was - and was not - a WR member by the red text below their forum name. Will the new section have an identifier for members?


              I'm also in/out - cutting back drastically here but not tossing down my shovel and stomping off.


              kay
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            • Profile picture of the author kilgore
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              If you are running a business where you manage what is said on your forum - that's fine. But learn from your own mistakes. If you don't care what people think - don't ask them what they think. If you don't have a solid offer that is new, different and ethical - just run your sales pages and send out your emails and don't ask for critiques. If you want members to back you up - do what Allen did with the War Room and install a dozen or so respected members into the new section so they can speak from experience and help back you up.

              I fully understand why owners would not want people trashing their new features and ideas and sections - but the way in which FL introduces change is a big part of their problem and they don't seem to get that. How many times does it take to realize maybe you need a bit more finesse when you ask people to pay and pay again.
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Not every post in that thread was from a previously hostile member; some were making genuinely constructive points. But if it were my business, I'd also consider the possibility that even the antagonistic members could sometimes have a valid point to make. I might well end up deleting all the posts, but with such a (seemingly) important project, I'd mitigate the risk of PR damage by adding an acknowledgement (and thanks) to those members who took the trouble to post.

              In the meantime I'd suspend that particular bonus, pending a legal check. And certainly tackle those typos.
              Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

              That is a fair point, but there was no requirement on the parta WF to allow comments.

              That would be like Walmart introducin' a Rate Our Cashiers scheme an' offerin' customers the optiona huggin' the gals sat pricin' up the goodies or punchin' 'em hard in the chops -- an' then settin' the dogs on the empowered pugilists.

              Prolly WF shoulda followed Walmart's example an' jus' piled up the tinsa Great Value sweetcorn by the checkout.

              I frickin' love sweetcorn.
              All three of you raise some great points. And just to be clear, I'm not defending Freelancer or suggesting that they handled this situation in the best possible way. I'm just saying that on some level their actions made business sense, even if they could have done a better job at communication and execution.

              I also think that if we detach ourselves from our interests, emotions and history, there is a lot to be learned from this launch. My master's program was very management focused and so we often used case studies as a pedagogical tool. You learned both from what organizations did right, but also what they did wrong. It seems to me that the Warrior Forum would make a great case study.

              For instance, just in what has been raised here, it would be interesting to explore some of the following issues:
              • How do you manage negative feedback? When should you respond? What should you say? How much do you allow? How do you separate constructive criticism from people who are just looking to badmouth you?

              • How do your customer feedback mechanisms shape your customer expectations? For instance, as mentioned above, the WF didn't have to accept comments at all on this thread. Moreover, it's not unreasonable for people on a discussion forum to want to actually have a discussion on the forum. But as I explained above, discussion wasn't necessarily Freelancer's goal. So might this controversy been averted if instead of taking questions directly into the thread, they manually added an FAQ as questions were delivered through email or other mechanisms? And what does this tell us about other customer feedback mechanisms, whether email or social media? For instance, my business has a very engaged Facebook page with almost 2 million followers. What does the WF experience tell me about how I should manage my interactions with the thousands and thousands of comments we get every day? When is it appropriate to hide and delete comments (or even ban people from the page)? And what might the consequences be?

              • When is it appropriate to issue a mea culpa (for instance, after breaking your own rules with a web scraping product) and when should you just push on? And if you do backtrack what's the best way to handle it to manage damage? And if you don't backtrack, do you acknowledge the issue or just ignore it? Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages.

              Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are a whole mess of other questions that would be interesting to discuss too, especially about changes in corporate culture or business directions. Unfortunately, I'm just not sure that most people on the main forum would find those kinds of questions as interesting as the 10,000th "What should I do with $50?" thread... But maybe one of these days I'll try it out anyway!

              P.S. Mmmmmm. Sweet corn...

              .
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Interesting the two people who were so quick to attack other members a few weeks ago for being "disloyal" to the WF - are now telling the owners what they can and cannot do?


              Of course that 'tool' is a problem....of course there are rules.


              BUT - the rules came from the owners of WF and they can violate their own rules if they choose to. Clearly, they made that choice.


              Pointing out "you can't do that" is silly when the OWNERS of this forum are doing EXACTLY that and removing any and all comments that question their choices.


              Do you expect someone at FL to thank you for pointing out THEIR discrepancies in say/do? Don't hold your breath.


              We used to say members were "cogs" in the wheel of the WF...now the WF itself is a cog in the wheel of Freelancer. It's business, numbers, profit....
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      As long as the Martian lovers are buyers of IM products and in need of IM information then it's all good. If you want to flood OT with non-buyers and non-marketers that's not so good.

      You call statistics directly related to your own statement crap, and you lobby for more Martian lovers to post to the forum. Got it.
      I mean individuals initiating intelligent discussions, not people grabbing their teddy bears in the middle of the night.


      The OT is not why people come to this place. Maybe a few gossipers do, but the OT is probably more of a problem for WF than it is helpful. The OT becoming dull(er) will not drive away all the traffic that is left. God golly, molly. You just missed the mark by a light year or two.

      That's just about the funniest thing I have read in a month.
      True, most of the traffic seems to get a kick out of IM, but the traffic that used to mainly come here,.....dull means desertion.

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        True, most of the traffic seems to get a kick out of IM, but the traffic that used to mainly come here,.....dull means desertion.

        I think I know what you are saying but its only because Im here is dull and non innovative. In the years I have been here its basically throw links at a page to rank in SEO or build a page to capture emails and slam the list to make money and or try and get people to buy from traffic coming from facebook or twitter

        3 basic things. the end.

        The list and spamming it is all that IM here has come up with in the better part of a decade.

        People talk about FL and WF going down hill but at least part of it is - it gets boring as watching paint dry reading people trying to dress up the same old dog in new hats when even the hats aren't really new.

        In that same time other marketers elsewhere have developed apps on tablets, phones, created sites that do more than wordpress and the internet innovates in leaps and bounds every year.

        Good night we are in 2016 and people here are still calling PDF s "products". Its like going to a site built in the 80s with animated gifs. Yeah its boring because the average Imer at WF is committed to doing nothing more with the internet than sales pages and list slamming.

        We saw that in spades with SEO. the SEO section was already waaaay down in participation with people we had seen for years gone.

        Why before FL took over?

        Simple. google updated its ranking algo so that link spamming doesn't work like it used to. At least half the board there dwindled off because the attitude was - if I can't link spam then SEO is dead and I am out.

        No innovation.I'll give you this. At least martian conspiracies have new things to look at every now and again - so on that level I get why its more interesting to you
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  • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
    So, what's the traffic difference between 11,506 and 16,803?
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  • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
    Meaning you don't have the information or are unwilling to produce it. What's the use of the original numbers then? For all the average forum goer knows, the difference between the two numbers is one page view per month, per rank spot.

    Kinda makes your post a waste in retrospect, wouldn't you say?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

      Meaning you don't have the information or are unwilling to produce it. What's the use of the original numbers then? For all the average forum goer knows, the difference between the two numbers is one page view per month, per rank spot.

      Kinda makes your post a waste in retrospect, wouldn't you say?

      Any of those kind of traffic estimators are generally a total waste. They are highly inaccurate. The only way to know for sure what is going on with traffic here is to have access to the analytics data from the site.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

      Meaning you don't have the information or are unwilling to produce it. What's the use of the original numbers then? For all the average forum goer knows, the difference between the two numbers is one page view per month, per rank spot.

      Kinda makes your post a waste in retrospect, wouldn't you say?
      That kind of post makes you sound like Mki wouldn't you say?

      Generally those numbers show a continuing fall off - that would be the point - not specifying a particular traffic number
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Some of you people just don't get it. SimilarWeb data is about as good as it gets.


    Source: Moz - Rand Fishkin
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  • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
    That kind of post makes you sound like Mki wouldn't you say?
    Swing and a miss.

    Forumguru, the part you left out:

    * Since the sample sizes for the data are small, and we’re dealing with several unique metrics and ways of measuring accuracy, this ordering is Rand’s personal creation based on beliefs about the relative value of the accuracy, coverage, and distribution of the metrics collected
    .

    Emphasis added.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Thing is its such a side point to be running down so hard. So you know its just Spartas being sparta. Apparently they still love them some FG
        Mike,

        It had nothing to do with any of that. The point was that all of those services are nothing more than guestimates. Sometimes they are pretty close to hitting the mark. Sometimes they are off by miles.

        It is a pretty good guess that traffic has dropped here over the past 3 years or so, but without access to the backend of the site, none of us really know by how much.

        What part of any of that is untrue?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

          Mike,

          It had nothing to do with any of that.
          Sure does . You are not fooling anyone. You been running FG nonstop the last few weeks in Multiple threads. You even PMed me about him - easy on the stalking

          The point was that all of those services are nothing more than guestimates. Sometimes they are pretty close to hitting the mark. Sometimes they are off by miles.

          It is a pretty good guess that traffic has dropped here over the past 3 years or so, but without access to the backend of the site, none of us really know by how much.
          And where in the original post showing a decline in ranking is there anything about a specific traffic number? so silly. This thread is about, in part , general decline of the forum and yes in terms of traffic. So what? no one can show a decline unless they show a specific number? No one made the claim anywhere that you can know by how much but its obvious to everyone that traffic is down.

          Stop junking up a thread because of a personal agenda. and that goes for the side kick in this endeavor Mki (or whoever because we both know no newb is spending most their time arguing forum politics like a senior person)

          back on topic people
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      • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
        [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Go ahead and deny SimilarWeb is one of the best data solutions available. Rand ranked 'em and you see what he came up with.

    Obviously, you have missed the mark by at least 5 miles of internet.

    Why don't you post some data that refutes the data from Similar Web?

    I know, that's not your objective here.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    You guys are cracking me up dogging on Rand Fishkin, Moz, and Similar Web.

    So what data are you two guys going to present to refute the Similar Web and Alexa data?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      You guys are cracking me up dogging on Rand Fishkin, Moz, and Similar Web.

      So what data are you two guys going to present to refute the Similar Web and Alexa data?

      Well, since you asked, I don't need to. Here is Rand himself dogging Alexa.

      Historically, Alexa showed a much longer timespan and much more inaccurate data, at one point estimating that our traffic had dropped year-over-year since 2009. I've had well respected VC funds reach out and ask why we were struggling and whether we felt the SEO market was drying up because of those charts... Now, Alexa's ranking us as the 472nd most popular site in the world, which is definitely way, way off.

      https://moz.com/blog/testing-accurac...ends-quantcast


      And did you miss this part in the article you posted that screen shot from?

      This metric is where SimilarWeb performed best, getting a near-accurate take on web traffic for nearly 1/4 of the sites in our sample.

      Wow, they are nearly accurate 25% of the time. That's great.

      So what about the other 75%?
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Exactamundo....and here again is Rand ranking Similar Web as good as it gets.



    So do you have any real data that shows WF traffic has not been in drastic decline?

    Of-course you don't, or you would be posting it here instead of arguing against Alexa and Similar Web's data.

    Nice try, but you fell way short on real data.

    Note: Similar Web ranked most accurate in both monthly visits and world rank according to Rand.

    In-fact Rand suggests using Similar Web, Compete, and when available, Quantcast.

    I wouldn’t feel confident using any of these numbers to predict actual traffic, but I would recommend using a combination of SimilarWeb, Compete, and (when available) Quantcast to get a rough sense for relative traffic between sites.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      Exactamundo....and here again is Rand ranking Similar Web as good as it gets.

      In other words, he ranked it the best of a whole bunch of inaccurate services.

      That was my point. They are all pretty inaccurate.

      Saying it is the best is like saying someone is the best hitter in MLB out of the under .200 hitters.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        In other words, he ranked it the best of a whole bunch of inaccurate services.

        That was my point. They are all pretty inaccurate.

        Saying it is the best is like saying someone is the best hitter in MLB out of the under .200 hitters.
        LMAO - You have yet to produce one statistic that refutes Similar Web or Alexa data on WF. Not one speck of data you have produced.

        You can talk, talk, talk all you want but it means nothing until you produce some data that refutes the data that has already been posted.

        You don't have any data so you just keep talking running down every data service in the industry while producing no data of your own.

        Mike's data service at your service, folks.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

          LMAO - You have yet to produce one statistic that refutes Similar Web or Alexa data on WF. Not one speck of data you have produced.

          You can talk, talk, talk all you want but it means nothing until you produce some data that refutes the data that has already been posted.

          You don't have any data so you just keep talking running down every data service in the industry while producing no data of your own.

          Mike's data service at your service, folks.

          I didn't need to. Rand's data shows it is highly inaccurate. What part of that are you missing?
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            I didn't need to. Rand's data shows it is highly inaccurate. What part of that are you missing?
            I got it. You just make up data in your head so you don't need to use Moz or Similar Web or Alexa or any others. So how is WF traffic doing right now according to Mike's head?

            You still have not posted one piece of WF statistical data to this thread.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              I got it. You just make up data in your head so you don't need to use Moz or Similar Web or Alexa or any others. So how is WF traffic doing right now according to Mike's head?

              No. Why would I need that data about WF? I don't care what the traffic is.

              I know that those services are inaccurate and there is nothing out there that is accurate, so I don't try to estimate traffic of a website. Simple.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        In other words, he ranked it the best of a whole bunch of inaccurate services.

        That was my point. They are all pretty inaccurate.

        Its certainly not the point of this thread. we all know that traffic is down and you yourself have multiple posts saying the same thing. So a poster puts up numbers from a service that confirms that, much like Suzanne used to put up Alexa stats that no one including YOU quibbled with, and here we are running it round and round.

        its OBVIOUS this has to do with who the poster is and former disageements on FL etc. time to put on the long pants and let this get back to the subject of this thread.

        Besides which your whole point is just silly. Services like that do indicate traffic losses even if they don't specify a number. Generally they are like polls - they take sliver of visitors and extrapolate to the whole and they are useful for THAT purpose not giving us a fixed number.

        The claim that if they don't give you a fixed number they are worthless is uninformed and if it were true we should go as ape crazy over all polls.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Its certainly not the point of this thread. we all know that traffic is down and you yourself have multiple posts saying the same thing. So a poster puts up numbers from a service that confirms that, much like Suzanne used to put up Alexa stats that no one including quibbled with, and here we are running it round and round.

          its OBVIOUS this has to do with who the poster is and former disagerements on FL etc. time to put on the long pants and let this get back to the subject of this thread.

          Besides which your whole point is just silly. Services like that do indicate traffic losses even if they don't specify a number. Generally they are like polls - they take sliver of visitors and extrapolate to the whole and they are useful for THAT purpose not giving us a fixed number.

          The claim that if they don't give you a fixed number they are worthless is uninformed and if it were true we should go as ape crazy over all polls.
          You are absolutely ridiculous. I could go back and probably find 10 posts of you laughing and ridiculing at people using Alexa data or worried about their Alexa data in the past. Now because your buddy Don is using it, Alexa data is great.

          Anyhow, my post had nothing to do with Don. gotthrowaway asked what the number correlated to. I simply pointed out they are inaccurate, as are all services like that, and you can't take any hard data from them.

          They sometimes will identify trends, but that is about it.

          And no, I did not say that traffic has not declined here. That is pretty obvious without using any of those services. I said that without access to the backend of the site, none of us know for sure how much it has declined.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            You are absolutely ridiculous.
            Its amazing how pots think they can talk to kettles


            I could go back and probably find 10 posts of you laughing and ridiculing at people using Alexa data or worried about their Alexa data in the past. Now because your buddy Don is using it, Alexa data is great.
            No you can't because

            A) I didn't say any data was great
            B) Most of the times I have any thing to say about Alexa not being adequate is in regard to SEO which it isn't. Now go ahead boy genius and show where this thread has anything to do with SEO .

            Of course the MO is when you can''t find me saying something you just make it up then apologize only if you get outed for making it up.


            Now if a site falls hundreds of places in Alexa yep it MAY very well be an indicator especially as in this case when we all know from metrics right here that traffic is down. You can't find any post where I say Alexa or any such thing is totally useless. thats more you and your sidekick Yukon's kind of bluster claiming anything but looking at the backlinks (and I guess having them speak to you on an astral plane) is totally useless.

            Bottom line - The stats in this case are in agreement with other data right here at WF. practically everyone on that other forum opines the lack of traffic but because its FG posting a stat you are in full I am going to show him up mode. So obvious.


            I said that without access to the backend of the site, none of us know for sure how much it has declined.
            Great so you have dazzled us with your brilliance on what no one said or claimed anyway. You've instructed us on what we already knew. Now that you have fed your ego can we make the thread go back on topic now?
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  • Profile picture of the author gotthrowaway
    So do you have any real data that shows WF traffic has not been in drastic decline.
    Do you have proof that traffic is in drastic decline? You have (questionable) proof that rankings are in decline, and no numbers to show the significance of traffic lost with each rank point lost.

    It's ok, here's a present for you. You definitely need some time off of forum(s): Introduction to Probability and Statistics | Mathematics | MIT OpenCourseWare
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

      Do you have proof that traffic is in drastic decline? You have (questionable) proof that rankings are in decline, and no numbers to show the significance of traffic lost with each rank point lost.

      It's ok, here's a present for you. You definitely need some time off of forum(s): Introduction to Probability and Statistics | Mathematics | MIT OpenCourseWare
      Sorry, Holmes. Not interested and not relevant.

      I spent many years in Nuclear Power studies to be a reactor operator....like 3 of them, including Nuclear Power School.

      I love statistics and probability stuff.

      MIT is great, I especially liked the MIT Blackjack team back in the day.

      In-fact I taught myself the Archer Point Count (short version) when I was about 15 or 16.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      This guy is Damien-Steen from Sparta, not mki. Unless, of-course, Damien-Steen is also mki.
      Who know??He has multiple accounts here so why wouldn't he have multiple accounts there. Regardless had him pegged for the sparta crowd and he just unwittingly admitted thats where he is from.

      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      Alright, well it is obvious what this nimrod is trying. I'm out.
      and yet posted again

      Originally Posted by gotthrowaway View Post

      Do you have proof that traffic is in drastic decline?
      We all have proof because we have been here longer than a month and you allegedly haven't been. We know how long threads would go without posts, how long a WSO thread would stay on the first page, what the page views used to be and what they are now. Save posting links to math sites and use a bit of common sense - people here awhile would know all these things that you don't (well I mean if you really were new)
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Who know??He has multiple accounts here so why wouldn't he have multiple accounts there. Regardless had him pegged for the sparta crowd and he just unwittingly admitted thats where he is from.

        and yet posted again

        We all have proof because we have been here longer than a month and you allegedly haven't been. We know how long threads would go without posts, how long a WSO thread would stay on the first page, what the page views used to be and what they are now. Save posting links to math sites and use a bit of common sense - people here awhile would know all these things that you don't (well I mean if you really were new)
        Yeah, I could paste data all day long, and then find threads with more data that has been posted already for another day.

        They have chosen to ignore all of the data to debate me with ZERO data while running down all data sources mentioned. The best data sources in the business for the folks that don't have bags of money to invest in data.
        It's how they like to roll, I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

    No. Why would I need that data about WF? I don't care what the traffic is.
    Because you repeatedly disputed the data I posted.

    July 16, 2013





    July 18, 2016



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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      Because you repeatedly disputed the data I posted.

      July 16, 2013



      July 18, 2016


      I never said traffic has not declined. I said that none of us know by how much because those services are highly inaccurate.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    If you compare all of the data...the decline looks quite similar across the board. Which also closely matches the numbers of posts, members, and guests we are seeing here and on archive.org.

    The steep decline in traffic and participation is real, and it's one of the primary reasons FL initiated the article blasting campaign. The decline may have also had something to do with Alaister and crew hitting the road as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      If you compare all of the numbers...the decline looks quite similar across the board. Which also closely matches the numbers of posts, members, and guests we are seeing here and on archive.org.

      The steep decline is real, and it's one of the main reasons FL initiated the article blasting campaign.
      I realize the traffic drop is real. I never it was not.

      gotthrowaway asked what the numbers from SimilarWeb correlate to. I was pointing out that you cannot extrapolate anything specific from that data.

      What I meant was SimilarWeb (or any other similar service) is not going to be able to tell you that the site had 2 million visitors in May and 1.7 million in June. Any kind of traffic estimates are just that. They are estimates.

      I'm not in any way, shape, or form denying that traffic has declined here. Of course it has. Anyone who has been here longer than a few months can see that, and the longer you have been here the more noticeable the decline is.

      I was just answering gotthrowaway's inquiry.

      It is not just traffic that has declined though. It is participation, and that is the real problem. Participation from posters. Participation from sellers. Participation from buyers. All of it has declined.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @MIkeF LOL

    You just tried running down all the premiere data services available to internet marketers for no good reason, Rand Fishkin, myself, and all other data providers just to argue some irrelevant point that was basically invalid for discussion on this thread anyway.

    Now you say it's participation like that's some big revelation? Now that's funny stuff coming from you. I can barely believe you just said that.

    I have said that on this thread and others for the past two years...and have detailed why participation has been dropping. Heck, I eluded to vendor and shopper participation on the rules thread, and have discussed it in detail on threads in the news and suggestions forum, as well as here, and probably on one or two threads on the main forum as well.

    In-fact you can find my input on participation on threads that had admin and mod participation.

    I credit you for stating the obvious though, especially knowing where some of those folks have went to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      Now you say it's participation like that's some big revelation? Now that's funny stuff coming from you. I can barely believe you just said that.
      .
      The whole thing is just drivel when you think about it anyway. do people who do not participate just keep coming back to read these forums where no one is participating? Of course not. so Participating is a part of traffic. Many stat packages include hits on the server as art of traffic. Mike's just spinning to sound like a guru when caught on the point that he is running down a metric that is easily verified as accurate (in this case) by anyone looking at the forums.

      Spin baby spin.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        The whole thing is just drivel when you think about it anyway. do people who do not participate just keep coming back to read these forums where no one is participating? Of course not. so Participating is a part of traffic. Many stat packages include hits on the server as art of traffic. Mike's just spinning to sound like a guru when caught on the point that he is running down a metric that is easily verified by anyone looking at the forums.

        Spin baby spin.
        That's it.

        I'm just hoping to see a participation/traffic increase because I have plenty of good stuff basically ready to go for the marketplace. I would love to launch a few more WSOs just to grab some organic sales here. 10-20 low priced offers, bumped occasionally, would get me quite a few sales without having to deal with any/many affiliates on those lower priced packages.

        But with such little traffic, and so many "you will easy make 40 grand" and "I grabbed me 4 grand in 3 days" offers in the WSO section it's almost (or is) more trouble than it's worth.

        It was much better when real software, plugins, themes, graphics and image stuff was more prominent here. Most of those software and plugin vendors are gone, as well as the graphics and image guys.

        To be honest...among other things --> I think the level of discourse on here needs to improve. Too many newbs and occasional posters get gun-shy and intimidated when they get ran out of here for simple, silly, or stupid questions. It's not much fun for forum visitors to read either.

        Those folks are the kind of buyers I am looking for...someone that is just starting a website, blog or social media campaign. These buyers compliment my fine art and stock photography biz...and allow me to reach a new market rather easily.

        Of course I also like contributing here, and I have learned a few good tips from WF threads.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

          That's it.

          I'm just hoping to see a participation/traffic increase because I have plenty of good stuff basically ready to go for the marketplace. I would love to launch a few more WSOs just to grab some organic sales here. 10-20 low priced offers, bumped occasionally, would get me quite a few sales without having to deal with affiliates on those lower priced packages.
          I think you need another marketing plan. If participation increases it would be a slow and steady thing but I don't see any signs of a plan in place to get that going and I see lots of evidence that the intention is just to tread water and bank as long as they can.
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I think you need another marketing plan. If participation increases it would be a slow and steady thing but I don't see any signs of a plan in place to get that going and I see lots of evidence that the intention is just to tread water and bank as long as they can.
            LOL. Good gracious, it's not a marketing plan. It's compensation for my forum time. You are absolutely correct re: participation.

            Here is the main reason I am still "in". I'm am holding almost my last hope (if you can call it that) on Moss and team revising the WSO section and/or the section rules (skin in the game) as I suggested on the Rules thread. If the offers posted remain as they are, and the price remains only $20 with no War Room requirement to post, and traffic remains low, then my last WF effort will be to pursue some WF promotion and give up a bunch of cabbage to FL for driving traffic, if they will run the offer(s).

            If I don't see a change in the WSO section (and we may see big changes soon, I dunno), and the traffic stays at what it is or gets worse, then I will more than likely be limiting my participation here.

            I spent a lot of time in the WSO section researching and buying new tools as well as selling there. The section just ain't worth it for me anymore. Most of the music lovers have departed this section (and forum), the review section I liked to frequent has died completely, and I just don't find a lot of stuff in the main section anymore that peaks my interest.

            The WSO section used to drive a ton of traffic to the other sections...when the big vendors and others left, so did a ton of traffic to other sections. FB Groups and off-site is where it's at for "offers" right now, as you well know.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              then my last WF effort will be to pursue some WF promotion and give up a bunch of cabbage to FL for driving traffic, if they will run the offer(s).
              .
              I've been thinking about running a few for months and reached no further than thinking about it. Honestly at this point I think I want to do it just for the market research to see how bad it really is since I would be shocked it it made a substantial profit

              Among other advertising options $20-$100 is not much to risk for curiosity
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    Banned
    If all the respected Members would stop complaining and/or leaving, the Forum would be significantly more "successful." They're leaving because they don't like it.

    Personally I'm going go ride it out because I (truly) like and appreciate this place.

    Great post discrat.
    : )
    Signature
    "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @Tag

    I think this is a good one for you and your buddies.

    Offtopic.com
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    An OT section can be helpful for a forum, if it helps drive the right kind of traffic, and/or if it helps to control certain types of spam (ie: posts that don't quite belong in the other IM sections).
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I have still enjoyed popping in now and then but I have given up all expectations that WF will ever be like the glory days.

    I was not a fan of the "original" articles being posted but I am completely shocked and horrified at the number of copied/stolen articles that are showing up.

    Plagiarized articles like this one!

    Now I don't really know for sure it was plagiarized. I do not know the owner of the original website or the original author or even if they are the same.

    What does seem apparent is that WF mods do not know what copyrighted material is. Someone believes the worst Internet myth that has ever been promoted here that "as long as you put a link back to the original article it is ok to copy it and post it on your site." (Bold and red so there is no mistake that statement is a MYTH.)There is more misinformation on this site about "curated" content than probably any other topic.

    I have seen articles showing up that are copied from many sources. The first one I saw was from a mod. Maybe FL is contacting the authors and getting permission but I doubt it. The thread I linked to above is the very first post from a new member. Even if FL is getting permission to copy the material they are opening up the floodgates for other members to just start stealing stuff from anywhere and posting it.

    Even if articles were posted here from places like Ezine where permission is given that is not why I come here.

    If these likely plagiarized articles continue I AM OUT!

    Edit: I also have suspicions that articles like the one I linked to above are from the website owners themselves. If copy/pasted articles are allowed what is to stop someone from hiring someone on Fiverr to open a WF account and post an article from their website just to get some backlinks?
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

      What does seem apparent is that WF mods do not know what copyrighted material is. Someone believes the worst Internet myth that has ever been promoted here that "as long as you put a link back to the original article it is ok to copy it and post it on your site." (Bold and red so there is no mistake that statement is a MYTH.)There is more misinformation on this site about "curated" content than probably any other topic.
      Looks like they've programmed another bot to post some more:
      View Profile: rarmenta
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        Looks like they've programmed another bot to post some more:
        View Profile: rarmenta
        Can't help but wonder what's going to happen if word gets around that WF is posting copyrighted content if they don't have permission to do so from the copyright holder. Cross the wrong person or group and the hot water could get deep.
        Signature

        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Can't help but wonder what's going to happen if word gets around that WF is posting copyrighted content if they don't have permission to do so from the copyright holder. Cross the wrong person or group and the hot water could get deep.
          It looks to me like they are taking curation techniques to a whole new level here. Of course this may breed a lot of copycats and straight plagiarizers, among other things.

          Content Curation: Copyright, Ethics & Fair Use - Content Curation Marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Has anyone proven Mike Anthony wrong yet?
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    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Has anyone proven Mike Anthony wrong yet?
      I did once, but my computer crashed right when I hit the submit button. Damn, better luck next time

      al
      Signature

      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

        I did once, but my computer crashed right when I hit the submit button. Damn, better luck next time

        al
        Not as close as you thought. It was the virus that shut it down that made you think you "did once"
        Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Has anyone proven Mike Anthony wrong yet?
        Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

        I did once, but my computer crashed right when I hit the submit button. Damn, better luck next time
        So close yet still so far, far away...sigh.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    i feel like john lennon singing revolution

    two versions

    you can count me out

    you can count me in

    let the revolution begin
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  • Profile picture of the author katewillgom
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by katewillgom View Post

      Well said!
      Thank you so much! I try - I really do. I'm glad that my words of wisdom have touched and inspired you. Now, go forth and prosper!

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        Thank you so much! I try - I really do. I'm glad that my words of wisdom have touched and inspired you. Now, go forth and prosper!

        Mark
        Pin Please
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  • I figure all forums require prudent prunin' jus' to keep em rollin' along smooth.

    Spammers, trolls, junk — yeah, alla that gotta be cleared from the path.

    But what we got gowin' on in sum posts is a kinda debate genocide.

    Too many cuts to a forum an' you are left with fo.
    Signature

    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author Froggys
    Im not on WF long but as said it has minimum troll issues and I like it.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    FYI, gone girl --> loyalty and/or disloyalty to FL/WF have not much to do with (see below) Warrior Forum promoting tools that are used to steal content and/or the deletion of thoughtful and informative replies from members that bring this fact to the attention of the forum, it's members, and it's visitors.

    Nothing silly about trying to protect my own content and warning others that the tool they are receiving from WF may get them into trouble because it is designed and used to steal content.

    The rules are set for a reason --- to protect WF, the community, and the visitors that buy here.

    In this case my loyalty is to myself, my clients, my family, my peers, and U.S. Copyright Law...it almost always is in instances like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    You guys know if you start up this Sparta crap again you are just increasing the chances of this all being removed. I'm talking to both sides. If you care about the message remaining and being seen by members I would edit your posts or at least drop that little storyline.

    Up to you though.

    Mike knows where I stand on them giving away something that both violates copyright law and can get users in serious legal trouble. I'm staying out of this, but I think it is a valid argument to try to get WF to reconsider this offering and don't want to see this thread deleted because of past arguments.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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  • Profile picture of the author TheOverseer
    Guys this is getting out of hand.

    Thread CLOSED until further notice.

    Thanks.
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