A Discussion and Random Rant!- What Do Manners Mean To You?

by acrasial

Posted: 15 years ago 37 replies

OFF TOPIC

Sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us...

This is a really "random" (and possibly long) rant/discussion...

So I have been learning recently that I can be rude at times. Well that is no surprise... aren't all kids these days a bit mouthy, disrespectful, rude, etc.?

Well, obviously not all, and of course it's not flattering to be considered such either. Not to say that I am just this immensely disrespectful, rude, ignorant, sharp tongued, brat... but if I constantly find myself in a position where I have done the same thing once AGAIN... I sure do start wondering if I am in fact all of the above...

For instance:
Sometimes I say things "I don't mean", but I still said it... and I felt like I HAD TO say it as well... just to justify something, or prove something to myself. Maybe it's an ego issue (always have to have the last word), or maybe it's simply some insecurities... but still I am always back to this position.

Sometimes as well, I say things "without thinking"... and then afterward entirely regret it. But how can we just say something "without thinking"... when the whole point of saying anything is to communicate a message... and obviously we had to think of what to say, because we wanted some sort of message to get across. So was the message I was trying to get across, just that I am a rude jerk?...

Sometimes... I am a human after all... but hey once in a while we have to reflect on things, especially if they are not going the way we want. But what happens when they are ALWAYS not going the way we want, and we still can't seem to change?!

SO then I am just lazy as well? WOW... the list of things just keeps growing...

I even used to think I was pretty decent... but there will always be something/someone that comes along and knocks me off my pedestal...(lol)... but that's a good thing, I guess... keeps me in check with what I really want in the end...

so if you can guess from the above, I said some things I shouldn't have said to someone- not once, not twice... but so many times I should literally walk over to the wall and hit my head on it. You can only say sorry, so many times before everyone is screaming at you to change.

As well, you can only make excuses for your actions for so long, before you realize you have not only been lying to others, but to yourself as well...

Someone told me I needed to learn some manners... how do you just "learn" manners?! Most people are just brought up a certain way... and I think it really awkward to just suddenly start saying "sir/madam" to my family members... and also I don't think manners are as simple as that either.

To me manners also mean that you recognize someone's needs, and comfort zone and ensure not to disrupt that- such as in a sort of understanding of the person, which then leads to a respect... because you would refrain from doing things outside of their comfort etc...

So to me it's not just words either... its a whole slew of things--- and then one may argue that I know what manners are... but as mentioned, i think they are beyond words as well.

So then still, my dilemma is how do you learn manners--... it's like a skill? I am sure I can be "polite"... but manners are something else.

what I mean by this is that I have seen people be "polite"... but you could tell they didn't mean it.. but to me manners are something that you mean... and like I said I feel there has to be an understanding to be able to have manners to begin with...

So how do you understand people....? you listen? That's one thing I have heard...

As well... what do you think manners are? Where do you learn them? how many people actually acquire them after their adolescence?...

And finally, a strange story to end things off....

I was standing in Zellers with a female family member. There was only ONE till running. We were like 8+ people back in this lineup... and then these elderly ladies cut her and I off...

and she got mad (she didn't say anything to them, but I could see the frustration on her face). I told her not to be mad, because they were older, and its the respectful thing to do.

Then we are waiting...waiting... snail pace. Suddenly a new till opens up... lady charms out "I can help whoever is next"... so those old ladies go ahead, and then us... because we were pretty far back...

and Suddenly... I swear, out of nowhere this chick comes and runs in front of all of us... and cuts in.

Now she's not old... she's not really anything- just some chick. I stood there flabbergasted... and actually quite mad... So I told her my two cents- told her to show some respect, there's some old ladies here-

The old ladies only had ONE thing... as well... some sheets... wow.

The she said some things back to me- no idea what... because she mumbled them, and was making up some excuses of god knows what... cutting off little old ladies...

and I sat there wondering what was SOOO important in HER life that everyone here had to STOP for her? Like no one else has anything to do?

Well of course everyone in that store had something to do, somewhere to be...

Well anyways that lady left... and her bag made the theft thing go off as she exited the door, and she ended up having to come back to the same till... thought that was funny as well...

And she even started chatting the old ladies...LOL haahha before she left... funny!?

Well so then my female family member told me that those women are old and they have all the time on their hands ... and My mouth almost dropped to the floor when she said this as well?

I said what!? and then she retorted that she did get where I was coming from as well... in the sense that they were older women- and the whole respect thing...

so basically... who on this planet does know what manners are? Only thing I ever noticed was that it's just something you learn... learn and learn... but what happened that day isn't something that happens every day.

I constantly see stuff like that... old people getting on the bus... young kids sitting and not moving- making them stand.

people walking past you in a huge group, and bumping into you and not even saying sorry... or excuse me...

well you name it- but still I have this dilemma that I must learn some manners... practice it etc.... because even with all of the above aside... I do admit that I have probably been like that lady sometimes (the one who ran in front of the old ladies... rudely) and not even realized it myself...

If you were to define manners, the definition I found stands as this: social deportment...

So basically it's social conditioning!! So that means it can be wrong too... one's idea of manners... or what they are... depending... because imagine an environment where a child grows up around parents who use illegal substances, swear, etc...

that child would likely (but of course not always ) adapt a potty mouth, bad attitude, drug habits etc... but that child wouldn't even be aware that any of this is wrong, because SOCIAL CONDITIONING has taught him/her that this is ok and this is the kind of demeanor that he/she should have.

So that's my rant... tell me what you think... what do manners mean to you, how do you get them, etc...?

Thanks

#manners #social conditioning

CDarklock

15 years ago

"Manners are how we show other people we respect them." - Brendan Fraser, Blast From the Past

"That's all I have to say about that." - Tom Hanks, Forrest Gump

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

"Manners are how we show other people we respect them." - Brendan Fraser, Blast From the Past

"That's all I have to say about that." - Tom Hanks, Forrest Gump

This is actually one of my favorite movie quotes of all time. Not a great movie, but the line was a great one.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

"Manners are how we show other people we respect them." - Brendan Fraser, Blast From the Past

Brilliant quote. Thank you.

Onward...

If you respect someone, as a human being, manners aren't as important as you might think. They're more useful for when you don't know the person, or when you know them but don't like something about them.

You know that guys who are friends will say absolutely the most insulting things to each other and not get angry. They know the respect is there, so the manners aren't necessary. That respect is what draws the boundaries.

I have a saying that might be helpful here: "A gentleman is someone who tries not to offend others accidentally." Note that this doesn't mean you try to please everyone. Even God can't do that. Just don't be casually rude.

If you're going to offend someone, do it deliberately, for a reason, and with a purpose.

Also, keep in mind that some people will be offended by things you have no reasonable way to anticipate. And some words have strong meanings for some people and are just funny to others. Some of those are obvious, others not at all.

For example, there are perhaps 3 women in the world to whom I'd grin and say, "Bi__h." Outside that very small group, it's just not appropriate.

If you really want to learn manners, watch what people do that makes another person, especially a stranger, smile or say thank you in public. Or what makes you smile or say thank you to a stranger. And pay no attention to the idiots who tell you it has to do with which fork you use at dinner.

Paul
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  And pay no attention to the idiots who tell you it has to do with which fork you use at dinner.
  
  The one on the outside. They're arranged in course order.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
  Signature
  
  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  The one on the outside. They're arranged in course order.
  
  Shhhh! Be vewwy quiet. I'm hunting wombats.
  
  Thanks
  
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KimW 15 years ago

I am always so surprised when I come across a young adult with manners because it is something that,here in the USA at least, they seem to be brought up without nowadays.
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vagabondette 15 years ago

Manners are a dying art unfortunately and some people will only apply them to people they want to impress (i.e. a man holding a door open for an attractive woman but not for another man).

To me, having good manners is a good indicator of the kind of person you are. If you're thoughtful, respectful and aware of others then it's really not that hard to treat them kindly. Now, this doesn't mean that if you have bad manners you're a bad person. Maybe it just means that you're a little self focused rather than thinking of those around you.

If you really want to learn to think about and control the things that are coming out of your mouth then you have to work on it. If I were you I would enlist a few close friends who can/will be honest with you. Tell them about your realization and ask them to help you. Ask them to discreetly point out when you say things that are inappropriate or potentially offensive to others.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that different people have different tolerance levels for things. Personally it's virtually impossible to offend me by saying something negative about me. However, I'm very protective of others and of ideas that are important to me and I have no problem defending those if I believe they've been slighted.

I also have a tendency to just blurt and it's gotten me into trouble more than once as has my steel pride when I feel I'm being forced to do something I don't believe is appropriate. I learned to temper this by just stopping and thinking about my thought before I let it come out of my mouth. I still say things that are offensive to people sometimes but now it's usually because of cultural differences or misunderstandings rather than me just having verbal diarrhea.

Anyway, I'm kind of wandering here so I'll wrap it up with a final suggestion. If you can't find people who are willing to help you fix this, consider working with a life/communication coach who has a background in psychology. They might be able to not only help you get over this habit but figure out why you do it in the first place.

As far as being able to learn things as an adult, I think anyone can learn anything at any time as long as it's what *they want* to do. Like an addiction, if you don't really want to change, you won't. You have to want it for you.

Good luck on your journey.
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HeySal 15 years ago

Manners are social etiquette that show you have some class and some feelings for another person. They aren't all that complex. How can you be considerate to another?
Letting the two old ladies ahead of you in line showed some class. It showed you recognize that an aged person might become uncomfortable standing for a long period of time.

Manners consist of little politenesses that are helpful. If someone cooks you a meal, do you leave your place setting at the table, get up and walk off when you are done? That doesn't make the cook feel appreciated after doing something for you. Proper manners, then, would be to say thank you for a lovely meal and taking your plates and bowls to the kitchen sink. Now how did that make the cook feel for their effort?

It's just not that complicated when actions are concerned.

When the mouth comes into play, it can get more complicated. Some people think you are rude any time you disagree with them. They will use "lack of manners" to intimidate you into thinking or acting as told. Don't buy into it. There are ways to say things without being rude - but if you feel you need to say them, then it is not rude to speak your mind. The trick there is to say things politely until a situation actually calls for you to get a bit jerked about something. That means no name calling, finger pointing, or whining.

For example, someone tells you it is "rude" to wear something somewhere - you don't have to call that person a prudish old cow over it, just simply state "I'm sorry, I don't agree with that logic at all". You've made your point that you are not going to be dictated, but you did it with some respect. How about the one "what will people think?" - That's easy - "People will think as they will regardless of how I choose to lead my life." You didn't say, I don't give a crap about anyone - just that you can't control their perceptions. You showed logic and the right to be an individual without insulting the opinion of another.

Now if someone insists that to have manners you must put up with offensive behavior, such as in a situation where a man gets a bit grabby or mouthy -- then you are in a situation that you might just be better off to let down your manners and call scum, scum. Having some manners does not include allowing someone to treat you like dirt under their feet.

And last there are some points of social etiquette that just clue people to what social class you identify. Do you pick up the wrong silverware at a dinner party? Dress outside of the occassion? Etc - now those points MUST be learned. There is no amount of diplomacy which will allow you to glean how to not give yourself away as not fitting into the social class you are socializing with. If, for some reason, you are attempting to fit in you will want to learn these points. If you marry a man from an up-class home, it may be easier to get along with the parents if you show an awareness of society at their level. If you are attempting to get funding from a person from upscale social circumstance, they may even look at an unawareness of points of etiquette to mean you aren't bright enough to handle the funding.

And as someone pointed out earlier - it is a matter of self control, and it is always beneficial to have that. It's a sad case when people do not know themselves well enough to control their own actions. Why bother turning 21 if you are nothing but livestock?
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Michael Motley 15 years ago

I think that the older crowd that gripes about young people not having manners ARE the reason people dont have manners.

Manners are something that are learned at a young age. This is something that people must teach their children. But its not the young person thats making it almost illegal for parents to discipline their children, its the people in positions of power, (read: old people). So if the older crowd wants to know why it is the latest generations are growing up to be little a$$holes, they need look no farther than the laws they enact that tie a parent's hands when it comes to the disciplining of their cihldren.
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- ThomM 15 years ago
  
  I think that the older crowd that gripes about young people not having manners ARE the reason people dont have manners.
  
  I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head Mike.
  Sorta anyways.
  I learned manners from my father by following his example.
  If you don't set an example for your kids to follow where will they learn from?
  
  Here's a couple of off topic thoughts to ponder.
  
  "You will get more flies with honey then with vinegar.
  Which makes them easier to kill."
  
  "It's neat to be nice,
  and nice to be nasty"
  
  Just saying, that's all
  
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  Getting old ain't for sissy's
  As you are I was, as I am you will be
  You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.
  
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KimW

15 years ago

Even though I am one of the older people that complain the younger generation have no manners, you are partially right Michael.
My kids have manners, and I taught them to them.
But I also feel that it is the older generation,mine,and maybe yours, I don't know how old you are, that are to be blamed for the world being as screwed up as it is.
The "free love" ,"peace", "help everyone for free"generation turned into one of the greediest ever.

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ThomM

15 years ago

But I also feel that it is the older generation,mine,and maybe yours, I don't know how old you are, that are to be blamed for the world being as screwed up as it is.
The "free love" ,"peace", "help everyone for free"generation turned into one of the greediest ever.

Very true Kim.
I remember in the late 60's thinking that we would be the ones to change the world.
Well we did, we made it worse

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locpic63 15 years ago

I think manners are put quite simply, The art of being polite and respectful. If you have any concern for others then you will work on perfecting this art.

Here's to your continuing success
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KimW 15 years ago

"And pay no attention to the idiots who tell you it has to do with which fork you use at dinner. "

Forks?? They let you use forks??
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Forks?? They let you use forks??
  
  And chopsticks. The fools!
  
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KenThompson

15 years ago

Hi there... I don't know where to begin. lol. I saw a lot of myself in some of the things you talked about. But my self when I was younger. My mother, who passed away in February, was the overlord of manners in our house. She wasn't totally neurotic about it. But table manners, and no - not knowing which fork to use... my mom was hell on table manners. And that kind of extended to manners, in general. So it was ingrained in us at a young age.

Most of my adult life, until recently in the past several years, I had an absolute "thing" about rude people. But now I'm in a good place with them. They don't bother me, anymore. lol. And I'm happy with that.

So what I would suggest is to be patient and train your mind to achieve what ever desired outcome you want. You are talking about behavioral changes and that implies changing habits of thinking. It's certainly possible because I've done it regarding other areas, plus lots of other people have done it.

You're doing well because you are paying attention to feedback from other people. One thing you're learning is that most people don't really care for someone they consider to be an a**hole. lol. Seriously. I've been one more than once in my life.

So decide to cultivate your awareness about your behavior and how you react to other people, like rude people for example. Then perhaps work on the idea of minimal friction, or resistance. There's a concept called zero resistance and it has to do with perception and reaction to external events around you.

As far as rude people are concerned, I ignore them. If someone cut in line directly in front of me I would probably just tell them the line ends 'back there.' If they didn't care at all, then ok. But really, it's not important at all to me to prove a point by forcing them to move or bringing myself to their (lower) level of consciousness by getting upset and engaging in verbal exchanges.

Here in Delaware, where I live, the drivers are rude as hell. They really are and it used to make me semi-crazy. But not any more.

One thing I really accepted in my mind was the concept of 'sphere of influence.'

We all have our own sphere of influence which is the set of 'things' in our lives that we can directly influence, sometimes maybe even control. But influence at the very least. If you think about it, there are very many things we cannot influence. Some things perhaps on a larger scale that would require a great deal of energy and time. Then the question becomes one of priorities.

But normally our sphere of influence is fairly small, and it does not include the ability to influence the behavior, or manners, of other people. Right? Right. lol.

So then don't sweat it. Let it flow past you.

Another angle of consideration concerns the quality of energy and quality of thoughts we maintain every day. Try to avoid letting your self get sucked into negative energies and thoughts. There are too many people in this world, who may otherwise be good people, but they are too immersed in what I would consider energies of a lower vibration.

So regarding manners, just be cool with people. Treat them as you would like to be treated. That's cliche, but it's good advice that works. Try to avoid judging them because that only opens doors that are best left unopened.

You'll be fine.

Regards...

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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You know that guys who are friends will say absolutely the most insulting things to each other and not get angry. They know the respect is there, so the manners aren't necessary. That respect is what draws the boundaries.

What you say here, that is one issue I have personally dealt with- but you see, that is not something I can DO with the kinds of friends I have. Now it has NOTHING to do with them not being good friends, becuase they always give me way more than I can give them, but perhaps a maturity, where they have reached a stage where... saying something like

"shutup" jokingly... is actually still considered an insult... And to me I can get that as well... because at what point do insults become OK to say to people anyways?

If they really were your friends, why would you want to insult them, be it jokingly, or not? Right? So on that stance, that is also something I have a hard time with... is the joking things- becuase sometimes it really can hurt people.

they wonder why you said it... they also wonder what made you say it... and if you say it in front of someone else (as I have also done) they may feel extremely offended then... because you are also making it ok for that other person to insult your friend then, right?

For instance... you are with a friend, and you introduced them to someone else...

Your friend starts ranting on about some stuff with this new person, and you want to talk to this new person in between but your friend just keeps going on and on.

Even this NEW person is trying to talk to you, but then you jokingly tell your friend to "Shutup"... then this other NEW person suddenly goes... "yeh, shutup for a minute"... well... there you have it... that's another dilemma.. that you joked, but this is an instant where it may not be ok, because you have just insulted your friend to another person, unknowingly... and I have done this!!

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I have a saying that might be helpful here: "A gentleman is someone who tries not to offend others accidentally." Note that this doesn't mean you try to please everyone. Even God can't do that. Just don't be casually rude.

On This note , i was once told that "people never try, they just do"... and that's something as well.. if I really wanted to do something, I sure would... but loads of times I find myself getting loose with my tongue... probably because it's a comfort zone I always go back to.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you're going to offend someone, do it deliberately, for a reason, and with a purpose.

True, but most of the time- as mentioned- I never even really think about what I am doing, until I see the consequences!! Alot of times, I just roll with stuff... and moreover, my tongue rolls on overdrive...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Also, keep in mind that some people will be offended by things you have no reasonable way to anticipate. And some words have strong meanings for some people and are just funny to others. Some of those are obvious, others not at all.

But as you are aware, with friends and people you associate with... more often than not... you get to know what makes them tick... so it's not really all that surprising if they hate swearing and you swear around them, and they get mad...

well obviously if you keep doing this after the first time yuo realized they get mad (which is also something I do... I constantly repeat mistakes... over and over and over and over) then it's not so much a clueless battle anymore...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

For example, there are perhaps 3 women in the world to whom I'd grin and say, "Bi__h." Outside that very small group, it's just not appropriate.

If you really want to learn manners, watch what people do that makes another person, especially a stranger, smile or say thank you in public. Or what makes you smile or say thank you to a stranger. And pay no attention to the idiots who tell you it has to do with which fork you use at dinner.

But likeI said, I watch people, and I get appalled! I see so many people not doing respectful things etc...

And also as mentioned, manners in my world goes BEYOND just words. It's not just saying thankyou, please, Yes Sir, No Sir etc... I have done such before, and do use these more often-

But it's sortof learning to control my emotions, learning to understand people, and more over learning how to respect people through this.

But as mentioned- above... most people just seem to have an idea of what manners are, because they were TAUGHT manners from their parents...

But not every parent out there is always right...... we all have ideas, which may not always be "politically correct"... lol

So still, it's not that easy to just go out there and find that. but as Tony Robbins says, he says if you want something- find a role model. he says to find someone who already has what you want, and ask them how they got there, what they did to get there... and follow in their footsteps... and I suppose that would work here to...

only I am missing the role model? It's one thing to SEE what people are doing... but how did they get there... what makes them constantly act "polite" and what makes them able to have patience and understanding with people etc...?

Do you understand what I mean here?

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Yes, as you mentioned, most people just seem to learn it at a "young age"... but obviously that wasn't the case with me. Now I don't mean that I blame my parents either- because parents do not control what occurss once their child leaves the home, and goes out into the real world either... so... I mean I wasn't exactly ingrained with this stuff.. and my family were introverts too, so i never really grew up having to interact with people either... it's still a new thing to me.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Most of my adult life, until recently in the past several years, I had an absolute "thing" about rude people. But now I'm in a good place with them. They don't bother me, anymore. lol. And I'm happy with that.

I bother myself... because even I think I am rude... internal conflict! So it's not a matter so much as other people.... there is a saying "you will hate in others what you hate in yourself"... so really any time that I notice someone being rude, acting ignorant etc...

I am really just questioning myself as to whether or not I am that way too... and alot of the times I am... and because i DON'T like the Idea of myself being that way, I then get mad at the other people for being rude... if you can understand that?

Originally Posted by KenThompson

So what I would suggest is to be patient and train your mind to achieve what ever desired outcome you want. You are talking about behavioral changes and that implies changing habits of thinking. It's certainly possible because I've done it regarding other areas, plus lots of other people have done it.

That is what I am asking, BINGO- how do you TRAIN your mind- this is something that requires action. You can't just think about it all that much either, because it is also something that requires action in the end, because it involves other people. so how do you know what to train your mind with in the firstplace, because as mentioned, I take manners way beyond just words...

Originally Posted by KenThompson

You're doing well because you are paying attention to feedback from other people. One thing you're learning is that most people don't really care for someone they consider to be an a**hole. lol. Seriously. I've been one more than once in my life.

I don't give myself that much credit, becuase honestly... I am still not taking action to change it... and that's my other dilemma! LOL so many dilemmas... drama queen much? man.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

So decide to cultivate your awareness about your behavior and how you react to other people, like rude people for example. Then perhaps work on the idea of minimal friction, or resistance. There's a concept called zero resistance and it has to do with perception and reaction to external events around you.

Google time... do you have a book, or article etc... where you retreived this concept from? A video ? just wondering?

Originally Posted by KenThompson

As far as rude people are concerned, I ignore them. If someone cut in line directly in front of me I would probably just tell them the line ends 'back there.' If they didn't care at all, then ok. But really, it's not important at all to me to prove a point by forcing them to move or bringing myself to their (lower) level of consciousness by getting upset and engaging in verbal exchanges.

I was the only one that day who said anything- and everyone in those TWO lineups knew what was right... but let that lady do it anyways... so I'd give you credit if you do actually say something- because from what i noticed... pepole are afraid to say stuff these days..

Never know if someone will just punch yuor face in for no reason... and I can understand that as well. .. I used to be passive as well and just let things HAPPEN TO ME... but this time I just got so mad... this burning... and I think it was because I was mad at myself, and I wanted to prove that i am not rude...

(but actually what I did was rude too...lol telling a lady in the lineup off...) and I didn't even think once again about any consequences (such as this lady plowing my face in)...lol and I just went for it.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Here in Delaware, where I live, the drivers are rude as hell. They really are and it used to make me semi-crazy. But not any more.

( I'm really off topic now, but if you want to see driving... look at driving in Mumbai or new Delhi- man they honk horns like there is no tomorrow... and I think why not?)

In america you are considered rude if you do, and someone may even come and smash in your windsheild... if you even dare flip a bird, yell at them, or honk your horn... (especially when THEY were in the wrong)

But this driving thing... yes I think it's lost alot of etiquette as well- everything these days seems to be lacking something... and that's becuase i feel I am lacking something.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

One thing I really accepted in my mind was the concept of 'sphere of influence.'

OMG so many concepts-- lol you are just an encyclopedia of information! once again... book reference or something? you can PM me that if you have it handy, "thanks"

Originally Posted by KenThompson

We all have our own sphere of influence which is the set of 'things' in our lives that we can directly influence, sometimes maybe even control. But influence at the very least. If you think about it, there are very many things we cannot influence. Some things perhaps on a larger scale that would require a great deal of energy and time. Then the question becomes one of priorities.

But normally our sphere of influence is fairly small, and it does not include the ability to influence the behavior, or manners, of other people. Right? Right. lol.

Put it this way, the people I COULD influence, are only influenced by positive things... such as self improvement, achieving goals, going forward, knowledge, self help etc...

and anything counter productive to this, would not be influential to them- such as being rude.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

So then don't sweat it. Let it flow past you.

True as well... i can make a big deal out of things sometimes too... especially unimportant things. I know someone right now who would tell me that I could be writing articles, instead of these posts... and many more productive things...lol

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Another angle of consideration concerns the quality of energy and quality of thoughts we maintain every day. Try to avoid letting your self get sucked into negative energies and thoughts. There are too many people in this world, who may otherwise be good people, but they are too immersed in what I would consider energies of a lower vibration.

I am so negative, it's not even funny... it's not as easy as it looks to come out of it either.

some people say it's a comfort zone for people who constantly remain in that kind of negative world... and that's why they never change... they are afraid of the unknown, or they are unsure what to do etc...

and that is me too... Success is scary to me... never really had it- not sure what would come of it... and I find myself even asking myself if I would be a jerk, if I ever became successful... because I've always had this idea that rich people were mean...LOL!?

Maybe I should have watched the ending of scrooge? LOL haah

Originally Posted by KenThompson

So regarding manners, just be cool with people. Treat them as you would like to be treated. That's cliche, but it's good advice that works. Try to avoid judging them because that only opens doors that are best left unopened.

Someone told me once "treat people how THEY would like to be treated"

This is because not everything you like is something they like, right? You also don't know what they like, or more specifically don't like, until you spend time with them...

But if you treat them how THEY WANT, which once again requires understanding, listening etc...you will never have too much of an issue...

But that's my issue still... understanding people... patience...listening...action...etc..

So yeh, some people hit the BINGO mark here for me- but I am still lost on how to "understand" people.... how do you learn to do that? because I think that would be the key to being able to be patient with people, being able to listen, being able to respect them etc... and it's not something that I think is easily learned either...

Who ever teaches you to understand people?

Thanks
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I will be happy to reply when you lose the colored text and bolding in the response. If it was done to indicate the different people to whom you're replying, don't worry. We can follow the quotes if you leave the name in (as you did) or address each person separately when you're replying to them.

I'm sure you weren't intending it as such, but that can make it very difficult for some people to read. It doesn't convey any positive impression, and might make some people think you were just trying to get attention, or be pretentious, or something else that's not a helpful way to be seen.

Paul

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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Done.... I had figured since I was quoting so much that it may get confusing...but you clarified otherwise, thanks.

Thanks
2 replies

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Thank you.

That was a lesson, by the way. I assumed a positive intent, and pointed out how diverging from customary practice could lead to wrong impressions.

That is called tact.

As far as the idea of "insulting" your friends, let me pose a couple of scenarios...

In the first, two guys are in a bar and get into a fight. When it's over, they pick each other off the floor, buy each other drinks, and are friends ever after. Quite common in many areas, and completely sensible, if you understand what's behind it.

In the second scenario, two women get into an argument in public, and one calls the other something seriously mean, or perhaps slaps her. It is likely to be a Very Long Time before they speak to each other again, if ever. That also makes perfect sense, if you understand what's behind it.

Interesting question, as an aside: Which response is more mature?

Generally speaking: The rules for social communication in man-to-man interactions are different from those in woman-to-woman interaction. There are a different set of rules for man-and-woman communication on top of that. They all make perfect sense.

Interesting that you chose the phrase "shut up." That's a loaded thing to say, in almost every circumstance. It dismisses the person to whom you're saying it, and trivializes what they're saying. I've asked people to leave my house for saying that to other guests.

Bad mojo.

The rules for what's acceptable between friends in private are different for what's okay in a group setting. In private, the respect is known to both of you, so it's not perceived as threatening. In a larger group, there should be the understanding that not everyone will know the respect that's there, so it may create lessened respect among the people who hear it toward the object of the comment.

Or toward the speaker, if it's not seen as appropriate.

That goes to your comment about getting mad when you see someone being rude. Ask yourself, what was that person showing that made you think it was rude behavior? What would have been a courteous substitute action?

As far as "people don't try, they just do," toss that out the window. Intentions matter. Trying is a sign of intention. The effort to improve your manners itself shows respect.

The key is, as you've noted, understanding. That's tough, until you realize that everyone else is just like you. Way down deep, we all want, need and desire the same things. We just have different ways of going about getting them.

Anthony de Mello tells an interesting story, in his book, "Awakening." A Master was once asked, "How long do you think it will take me to fix my problem?" The Master replied, "Not one second longer than it takes you to truly understand it."

When you "say things you don't mean," it's possible that you really don't mean them literally. But there is an intent behind them. What is usually the intent? What motivates you to say them, and what result do you think you expect to create? Why do you want to create that result?

Example: Have you ever heard someone say something totally out of character, and truly vicious, during an argument? The odds are VERY good that they didn't mean what they said. They wanted to strike out at the person they were arguing with, lost control, and said the most painful thing they could think of.

The intent wasn't the words, it was the hurt.

Or maybe they were frustrated and wanted the person to stop arguing and leave them alone, but didn't know how to say that.

Lots of possible reasons someone might say something they don't literally mean. The goal is what you need to understand, not the words.

You're right. The best sort of manners go beyond words. They are an outward sign of genuine respect. They're a sign of your belief in a generally benevolent humanity, and your liking of yourself.

Pro forma manners will keep you from creating trouble for yourself. The kind of manners you're talking about will do much, much more. You learn them by assuming and looking for the good in everyone - including you.

Once you reach that point, you lose the need to control your emotions. Your respect for and understanding of others will keep you from taking your anger or fear or whatever out on someone who doesn't deserve it, without you needing to think about it.

Well, most of the time. Very few people ever get to where they're 100% at it. But we don't need to. Being human sort of precludes it anyway.

If you know you're a good person, you can learn to forgive yourself when you screw up. Even when it's a Big One. Sometimes, when you're mean, you need to do something to fix it. Most of the time you can just acknowledge that it wasn't meant to be mean, understand why it happened, and forgive yourself.

That's a LOT easier when you really understand that you're not perfect and you don't have to be.

Also, it's a lot easier to forgive others when you learn to forgive yourself. I don't know you at all, so this could be way wrong, but I have a strong feeling you have trouble with that one.

That ties back into the idea that people "don't try, they just do." That assumes that you're going to be immediately successful at everything, or your intent wasn't sincere. What ridiculous drivel that is! What an awful way to cripple an otherwise healthy human psyche!

People turn cliches into "truth" so often, without thinking about it, that I sometimes want to choke the bastiches who make up these stupid sayings.

Example (From old memory, so it won't be exact quotes): I had a boss once who was really smart, but she was unusually clueless about people for a woman. She said one day, "Show me what a person loves, and I'll tell you what they're all about."

I couldn't believe she'd said something so patently ridiculous, and told her so. Like most people who were raised by bumper stickers, she got riled and ready to defend her trite recording.

I held up a finger and said, "Wait, Gina. How many of those people we're training will tell you they love Mom and puppies and safe streets and the flag?" She said, "Probably all of them."

"What does that tell you about them, Gina?"

"Well, nothing."

"Right. Because most people love the same things, or will tell you so because they think it's what they're supposed to do. If you really want to know what a person is all about, find out what they really hate. What makes their blood really boil? What pulls out that involuntary response that you can't fake, and tells you they're about to do something rash?

"THAT is useful. That tells you about their character, and which way they'll jump when the pressure is on. And that's what we need to know, so lose the slogans, please."

You don't hate rudeness because you're sometimes rude. You hate rudeness because it's mean, and you don't want to be mean. You'll still hate it when you learn not to be rude. You'll keep hating it until you figure out the reasons why people are rude.

Then you'll hate the rudeness even more, but you won't hate the people for it.

As far as models, why restrict yourself to just one? You have a whole world full of them for something like this.

Be kind, and manners follow as naturally as breathing.

Paul
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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

I am always so surprised when I come across a young adult with manners because it is something that,here in the USA at least, they seem to be brought up without nowadays.

I agree, and I am only 20!...

Originally Posted by CDarklock

"Manners are how we show other people we respect them." - Brendan Fraser, Blast From the Past

"That's all I have to say about that." - Tom Hanks, Forrest Gump

There are a few people who agree with this respect thing:

Originally Posted by locpic63

I think manners are put quite simply, The art of being polite and respectful. If you have any concern for others then you will work on perfecting this art.

But as mentioned... respecting someone seems to come with the ability to understand, not judge etc... Which is also something people learn... and I am still trying to learn...

Originally Posted by vagabondette

Manners are a dying art unfortunately and some people will only apply them to people they want to impress (i.e. a man holding a door open for an attractive woman but not for another man).

I actually hold the door open for anyone... especially if I am leaving a restaurant and someone is coming in, or leaving at the same time as I am (and I mean for random strangers)...

I was at the bank the other day too...holding the door open... and a whole slew people people came out.... of all ages...

Not one even said thankyou...they acted as if I didn't exist... and then maybe that's my issue that I do things expecting recognition... but I was actually holding the door open originally because the ATM region was full of people and there was no room for me to stand inside... but in the meantime people went out... and then I just kept holding the door open

But still wasn't too thrilled that no one could even say thank you... ... people don't even appreciate that anymore!...

I only know one person who actually appreciates it... and that's a 77 year old lady, for whom I open the car door for (even if it's on the other side of the vehicle)... so she can get in.

But she was also brought up in that era... so she kind of expects it at some level... whereas other people, if yuo even do that for them- act oblivious to the fact that you are doing it, and really don't seem to care either.

Originally Posted by vagabondette

To me, having good manners is a good indicator of the kind of person you are. If you're thoughtful, respectful and aware of others then it's really not that hard to treat them kindly. Now, this doesn't mean that if you have bad manners you're a bad person. Maybe it just means that you're a little self focused rather than thinking of those around you.

As someone else said, we can't always be a people pleaser- and everyone is always still looking for something for themselves, even if they don't realize it.

Consider that you interact with people on here... maybe for information, maybe for a good laugh, maybe because they got you mad, maybe for entertainment...

But technically, everyone uses everyone... but of course there are ways of doing this which certainly can come across as really selfish...if they are beyond so called "social norms"...

Originally Posted by vagabondette

If you really want to learn to think about and control the things that are coming out of your mouth then you have to work on it. If I were you I would enlist a few close friends who can/will be honest with you. Tell them about your realization and ask them to help you. Ask them to discreetly point out when you say things that are inappropriate or potentially offensive to others.

I can imagine my family having a hay-day with this, and then ultimately using it against me when they wanted to somehow blackmail me into accepting their wants (even if they are absurd wants)... but maybe that is my negativity talking again...lol

Originally Posted by vagabondette

If you can't find people who are willing to help you fix this, consider working with a life/communication coach who has a background in psychology. They might be able to not only help you get over this habit but figure out why you do it in the first place.

That is a good idea... but unfortunately I have found that alot of people with a background in this just prescribe drugs and other temporary pain releivers which do not solve the situation. But the life coach, is a fantastic idea, and my sister has those sorts of support teams...

But honestly i've always been embarassed to do such things, or see such people- as it is generally associated with people who have huge and serious issues...

But that's just my fear talking again...right?

Originally Posted by vagabondette

As far as being able to learn things as an adult, I think anyone can learn anything at any time as long as it's what *they want* to do. Like an addiction, if you don't really want to change, you won't. You have to want it for you.

Yup, I am well aware of this, and that is something I complained about... was my inability to take action on some things... as I constantly make the same mistakes over and over and over... thus it seems I really dno't want to change sometimes.

BUt I think it's really just a comfort for me, and a fear of going outside of this comfort zone... and I just need to break that issue.

Originally Posted by HeySal

It's just not that complicated when actions are concerned.

Love your explanation of actions versus words...

Originally Posted by HeySal

When the mouth comes into play, it can get more complicated. Some people think you are rude any time you disagree with them. They will use "lack of manners" to intimidate you into thinking or acting as told. Don't buy into it.

Never really had someone try and intimidate me that way, because if I believe i am in fact correct, I won't be that bothered... and I will actually try convincing them...lol!

But, what I reffered to mainly, was that someone told me I was wrong...pointed out something etc... and I felt that way too... I agreed, and then resented what I had done...

Originally Posted by HeySal

The trick there is to say things politely until a situation actually calls for you to get a bit jerked about something. That means no name calling, finger pointing, or whining.

I am confused about this? You are saying to be polite till someone makes me mad/jerked? then I can't name call? Sorry, blonde moment here, can you elaborate please?

Originally Posted by HeySal

For example, someone tells you it is "rude" to wear something somewhere - you don't have to call that person a prudish old cow over it, just simply state "I'm sorry, I don't agree with that logic at all". You've made your point that you are not going to be dictated, but you did it with some respect. How about the one "what will people think?" - That's easy - "People will think as they will regardless of how I choose to lead my life." You didn't say, I don't give a crap about anyone - just that you can't control their perceptions. You showed logic and the right to be an individual without insulting the opinion of another.

This is absolutely brilliant... this is kindof what I was looking for as well- very good example. For sure...

But honestly, I also have a sortof hatred towards sugar coating things... as I consider it to be a way of "beating around the bush"...

Although the way you put it doesn't really sound like sugar coating... I do know people who talk and it seems everything they are saying was just sugar coated, and you can tell they are thinking something completely the opposite

I find it irritating to be around people who constantly beat around the bush... because then I start thinking..."why don't you just say it"... or "why don't you just admit that you don't like my question"... and I get that feeling around that kind of thing too...

Also... the major reason why I don't sit well with the sugar coating too... is because i am a horrrible liar! If i lie it shows on my face... and I consider sugar coating to be a form of lying as well... and that's my main concern too...

was if I was feeling hurt, upset... mad etc... by something someone else had just said or done... I wouldn't be very good at hiding that, or "sucking it up" and just smiling and saying something nice in return...

But perhaps that is something I have to work on as well?

But honestly, no one ever considers that to be fake? But I think I am also digging way too deep into this, perhaps? because looking back at what I just said... it sure sounds like I care too much about what people think too...
man!! lol!!

But I still love this point, aside from all of my internal b-s contradictions and whatnot...

I cannot disagree with what you said, but I am just wondering what happens when everything has to become sugar coated... I would just feel a bit fake that way too... so how do you handle that aspect of it?

Originally Posted by HeySal

Now if someone insists that to have manners you must put up with offensive behavior, such as in a situation where a man gets a bit grabby or mouthy -- then you are in a situation that you might just be better off to let down your manners and call scum, scum. Having some manners does not include allowing someone to treat you like dirt under their feet.

Someone told me you cannot demand respect, and Honestly Sal, I would have no idea how to deal with this kind of situation... and still do not...

Like what if it's a downright disrespect... some people say "walk away"... but what if you really, and deeply care about the person who just did that to you.... how do you get by that as well?

What if it's family members etc...? how do you "let down your manners"... but still keep your "cool" and "self respect" etc...?

How would you convey in this kind of a situation the discontent you feel... especially if the person WILL NOT drop the subject... and will continue on about this "disrespectful" thing?

Originally Posted by HeySal

And as someone pointed out earlier - it is a matter of self control, and it is always beneficial to have that. It's a sad case when people do not know themselves well enough to control their own actions. Why bother turning 21 if you are nothing but livestock?

I think people are constantly discovering themselves... because if you really knew yourself- there would be nothing left to learn, you would never change etc... so... I am always learning and figuring out who I am, and I think I want that to be a lifetime thing...

Yes, controlling actions is a huge key- and that's where I do lack, I admit that... but as mentioned... if you cannot understand the person, etc... then you really don't take note to control your actions, because you don't even have an understanding in the firstplace...

But that's where the manners would come in...I guess...which is where this all started...lol

Originally Posted by HeySal

Why bother turning 21 if you are nothing but livestock?

I have NO clue what this statement even means?

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I think that the older crowd that gripes about young people not having manners ARE the reason people dont have manners.

I can relate to this... often times my family tells me I have no respect- simply because I did not do what they wanted in that moment... and I am sitting there thinking of all the things I did for them etc... and going what the hell just happened?

then I feel unappreciated ...LOL... but I am not sure that it really deters me from wanting to respect... but sure I must admit that I dislike it when people DEMAND It, because I feel it is a mutual thing, and has to be earned.

But some elders believe we young people should give it first, before we should expect to receive it, which is true on some level as well...which brings me back again to the beginning where i said...how do you learn to respect someone... because respect also comes along with an understanding and once again leading back to learning how to have manners, until you understand the person.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Manners are something that are learned at a young age. This is something that people must teach their children.

I agree and disagree with this, and I think alot of people are mixed on this one... one of the reasons is because as some people have said, you can learn at any age... and another is because of social conditioning outside the house... parents can only do so much- but they can't follow you to school, or work etc... and control those aspects...

But for sure, they can give you a foundation to teach you how to have self control in public places, and respect etc...

BUt the thing is, everyone has their own insecurities, and if you looked at america these days the divorce rate is over 50%... so how do you learn manners, and respect when 50% of kids these days have broken families, broken relationships etc...

But you may also find kids who grow up thinking I WANT TO BE NOTHING LIKE MY PARENTS... and you notice them going on to become great people, when their parents were trash...lol

Someone gave me a good example of this:

Two men grew up living with their father as their role model.

One went on to become an alchoholic, with a failed marriage and anger issues; and when asked why he became this way he cited:

"my father always drank, and his alchoholism ruined our family. my mother eventually left, and I never learned how a real marriage works. My father was a bad role model, and that's why I am this way"

The other man grew up to become extremely successful, very polite, and well mannered. When asked why he became this way, he cited:

"Well, my father was an alchoholic, and I saw what it did to him and our family, and I told myself that i wanted something better. So I went out and got myself a job, and promised myself that I would always treat my wife the way that she deserves"

So... there are always two ways to look at things too, I guess...

Originally Posted by ThomM

I learned manners from my father by following his example.
If you don't set an example for your kids to follow where will they learn from?

That's exactly what i said... but check out the story above, because sometimes you can learn from parents, even if they are bad role models... if you have the drive to.

But true, that's what I was asking, was where to learn these things- when you didn't pick it up from childhood...?

Thanks
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by acrasial

If social conditioning outside the house is overriding what is being taught inside the house, then the parents aren't doing their job or doing it well enough.

Once kids get to highschool, their 'training' is done. Its when kids are with mom and dad everyday, and dont yet care what their classmates really say or do that mom and dad need to be laying the foundation for the child's interactions with the world. If the foundation is laid correctly it wont matter what their peers do when they reach the highschool age, they will be able to make the correct decisions on their own actions for themselves.

Thanks
1 reply

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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Thank you.

That was a lesson, by the way. I assumed a positive intent, and pointed out how diverging from customary practice could lead to wrong impressions.

That is called tact.

I figured as much, but I can take a test/challenge sometimes...lol...

But honestly I was wondering there for a moment why people are so harsh against the color, when it's allowed in replies... but you also explained why as well.

So then I just simmered down, and realized people are not as dumb as IIII think they are (as you pointed out, people are quite capable of reading it, just as I had done).... so then I lowered the ego too... and changed it...hahaha

all of that before replying... but I knew you were trying to "irk" something... and you did...lol I just "bit my tongue"... and now that I think of it, it was better that I THOUGHT about something for a change, rather than just replied in emotion...lol

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As far as the idea of "insulting" your friends, let me pose a couple of scenarios...
In the second scenario, two women get into an argument in public, and one calls the other something seriously mean, or perhaps slaps her. It is likely to be a Very Long Time before they speak to each other again, if ever. That also makes perfect sense, if you understand what's behind it.

I think this is stupid...honestly...LOL. Not sure I can understand this, as I have seen women do this, and found out WHY- and totally disagreed with the logic, as women base many things on emotion, rather than logic... which can completely make something seem nonsensical to me.

I know a 77 year old lady who has been life-long friends with another lady (who we will call Jane). This lady Jane stopped sending her letters as often, and stopped calling as often... So the 77 year old lady calls Jane and asks her what's up, because she figured Jane was mad at her or something.

But then she finds out that Jane had recently had a stroke (and not to mention Jane's husband died as well recently)... so then the 77 year old gets mad...at Jane.

Now if you know anything about a stroke, you would know they can make you forget people you once knew, and make you depressed etc... it's not easy on your brain. So I explained that to the 77 yaer old... but she was still mad saying "we have been life long friends... and I cant believe she would just snub me like that"...

Then I found out that the real reason the 77 year old was mad, was because no one had even told her about the stroke, especially Jane's kids (whom she had watched grow up). So the lack of respect or decency to call her and tell her that Jane was ill, from the kid's part, made her mad...

BUt she STILL blamed Jane... and still does! She wants to throw away all the photos, letters, cards, over 40+ years... and that's what I call silly... emotions! not rational at all... She also says she is done with "Jane", and wont ever speak to her again... all because "jane" didn't call as often ?

How silly, and to me that's not how I think women SHOULD be either, when it comes to relationships... that's just having no logic, and choosing to be driven on an emotional rollercoaster...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Generally speaking: The rules for social communication in man-to-man interactions are different from those in woman-to-woman interaction. There are a different set of rules for man-and-woman communication on top of that. They all make perfect sense.

I don't think they always make sense! Especially with women! But maybe that is because I have learned a few things to make me feel differently about it... I can get man to man interactions easily...lol... but throw emotions into any interaction, and I don't think they make sense anymore...lol

My aunt and uncle used to call each other "poops" and "buns"...etc... really weird names, which seemed like insults at first. I still don't really get it, how their "pet Names" became disgusting things... but hey, throw emotions into it, and anything rational (or anything that should make sense) no longer does... that's how I feel...lol

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Interesting that you chose the phrase "shut up." That's a loaded thing to say, in almost every circumstance. It dismisses the person to whom you're saying it, and trivializes what they're saying. I've asked people to leave my house for saying that to other guests. Bad mojo

What is a mojo? But yes, that phrase sure is a touchy one- but this person whom I had said that about, had also used it against me in the past as well... and others. it had been thrown around in front of other people, and sometimes in private... but it was always kindof touchy, so I guess I really was playing with fire to even use it in the firstplace, when i knew it was a touchy one.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The rules for what's acceptable between friends in private are different for what's okay in a group setting. In private, the respect is known to both of you, so it's not perceived as threatening. In a larger group, there should be the understanding that not everyone will know the respect that's there, so it may create lessened respect among the people who hear it toward the object of the comment.Or toward the speaker, if it's not seen as appropriate.

I never considered it this way, I guess. I also guess that i have no clue then, how to treat someone with respect in front of others... as in changing my tune so that others respect this person as well...

I guess sometimes I just want this person to see the person I am presenting as I do... and then I act casual (a little tooo casual)...so much so that insults occur within only a few seconds of talking... but that's because I am used to doing that around this person... and I want others to know this person on the level that I know him/her...

So then i guess as well, that I am not sure how to switch between both settings... and i wasn't aware that there was a "fine line" hidden in between...lol

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That goes to your comment about getting mad when you see someone being rude. Ask yourself, what was that person showing that made you think it was rude behavior? What would have been a courteous substitute action?

This is very good, proactive. It took me a bit to figure out what this meant...lol because I am so negative! LOOOL... but finally I got it...isntead of concentrating on the bad, consider what good could be done in place etc...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As far as "people don't try, they just do," toss that out the window. Intentions matter. Trying is a sign of intention. The effort to improve your manners itself shows respect.

Intention was the word.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The key is, as you've noted, understanding. That's tough, until you realize that everyone else is just like you. Way down deep, we all want, need and desire the same things. We just have different ways of going about getting them.

Sometimes I wonder if this is really true... when I look at people like hitler, napoleon...etc... (although they are bad examples) I still wonder what the heck they wanted!? that I wanted as well!? in the end?

I also wonder if this is really true... when i find people...such as MEN, who don't want to be married, and want to remain single for life...

or when I find women who don't want any kids... because all of this seems to go against what society says you should want, right? So then I wonder how they are like me too...?

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Anthony de Mello tells an interesting story, in his book, "Awakening." A Master was once asked, "How long do you think it will take me to fix my problem?" The Master replied, "Not one second longer than it takes you to truly understand it."

I understand many of my problems, but my problems still exist, simply because I have a comfort zone that I am afraid to go out of...lol.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

When you "say things you don't mean," it's possible that you really don't mean them literally. But there is an intent behind them. What is usually the intent? What motivates you to say them, and what result do you think you expect to create? Why do you want to create that result?

BINGO. Intent is the word again- presumably to many people they see me as intending to hurt them directly, and true... sometimes I am offended and feel like I need to bite back (just like a snake) so that I feel better... but of course that only makes the situation worse.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Or maybe they were frustrated and wanted the person to stop arguing and leave them alone, but didn't know how to say that.

As mentioned in some other post above, this is something I have an issue with! Is trying to communicate to someone, that I dislike what they are doing... but this person will continue doing this thing-

and more often than not its a disrespectful thing towards me.... and then i don't know how to deal with it, especially when i can't just "walk away"...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Well, most of the time. Very few people ever get to where they're 100% at it. But we don't need to. Being human sort of precludes it anyway.

I also cannot make excuses, and that would be a PERFECT excuse to do something (a mistake), over and over again... and try and pass it off simply with an excuse...lol such as "being human".

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

you can learn to forgive yourself when you screw up. Even when it's a Big One. Sometimes, when you're mean, you need to do something to fix it. Most of the time you can just acknowledge that it wasn't meant to be mean, understand why it happened, and forgive yourself.

BINGO again, that's something I have a HUGE and emense hard time doing... forgiving myself. Long story short, got hurt in past- was my own fault...still can't get over it, not because of other people... but because I still cannot forgive myself. I AM just hugely appalled by what I allowed to happen to myself...

And i've held that for years... sounds stupid... but I still can't just "let it go"...

some people suggest that maybe I get some comfort in that, in pain etc... because I don't know what it's like to be happy, or I am afraid to really give myself what I need etc...

But I find that alot of people who are able to "forgive themselves" are also more elder than I... so I do think it can come with age/experience etc... as well.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Also, it's a lot easier to forgive others when you learn to forgive yourself. I don't know you at all, so this could be way wrong, but I have a strong feeling you have trouble with that one.

Yup, definately if I cannot forgive myself, the other person is likely not forgiven either! LOL.... I have ONE case of this in my life.. just one. But I sure make it big... simply because I cannot forgive myself.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That ties back into the idea that people "don't try, they just do." That assumes that you're going to be immediately successful at everything, or your intent wasn't sincere. What ridiculous drivel that is! What an awful way to cripple an otherwise healthy human psyche!

I don't think it ASSUMES that I will immediately be successful... as people fail more often than they succeed... but it just assumes that I will take action, and "try" not to fail... at least instead of just allowing myself to fail automatically.

But yeh- I may be one of those people who has been successful at a few things... but when I do fail, I get really crushed... because it's not something i really had to deal with either...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

People turn cliches into "truth" so often, without thinking about it, that I sometimes want to choke the bastiches who make up these stupid sayings.

ahah I hope i do not fall into this category of people you want to choke...lol. *tisk tisk!*

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

"Right. Because most people love the same things, or will tell you so because they think it's what they're supposed to do. If you really want to know what a person is all about, find out what they really hate. What makes their blood really boil? What pulls out that involuntary response that you can't fake, and tells you they're about to do something rash?

Yes, I have learned that a real test of a man is in adversity... and unfortunately I have been judged in such ocasions, and even tested (in ways that force me to react as well...) and I think that's unfair too.

I noticed some people who are aware of the above, often make up tests, or push people to act out as well... and then judge them on it... and i think that's a bit messed up as well...and unfair.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Then you'll hate the rudeness even more, but you won't hate the people for it.

*GULPS*... I really hope not... as it will still take up my time, whether i hate it or love it... and I really don't want it to be taking up my time all that much either! LOL...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As far as models, why restrict yourself to just one? You have a whole world full of them for something like this.

Yes there is a huge planet... but I know probably 0.00000000000000000000000001% of the people on the planet, and only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000001% about each person I know on this planet...

So that's what I'm saying as well...where do you find such people too...? lol.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Be kind, and manners follow as naturally as breathing.

Kindof like the saying... you have to give respect before you can expect to get it back... but as mentioned--- I don't think i'm always great in the manners department...lol... or kind....LOL

Originally Posted by KimW

Watch the movie Gran Torino

I have seen it, more than once, but I still disagree with the use of the word. The Hmong people insult him to- that girl does...calling him names... and he seems to let her, and still the movie displays the idea that the Hmong people respect him more than his own family does...

But even in the movie, it was a touchy subject even for the girl to jokingly call him nick names, or related... and "pull it off"...

Originally Posted by KenThompson

You would be floored if you ever heard the way we talked to each other. We said the most terrible, gawd-awful things to each other. But we always laughed because we
respected each other.

My own brother speaks in "gawd-awful" ways... some of the "crap" he talks about I am literally not interested in, and are not things which should be shown to a sister, or said. I am not sure either how to make him NOT say things... because when i ask him not to... he does it more- thinking I am trying to boss him around.

That is the issue I have at times with people... is I can't even bring them to understand that I am comfortable with certain things... and they are personal people to me...with whom I have to associate with at times... and I feel frustrated that I cannot even establish a line of what's ok and what's not...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You will not have success every day, so it's important to avoid beating up your self when you are not successful. Just gently remind your self to keep awareness.

Yeh.. i guess. LOL but it's hard not to beat myself up too...especially when i know I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

1. I'm not being sarcastic about this, but try to stop and think before you open
your mouth. This is especially important if it's a potentially inflammatory situation.

Someone once told me to "roll your tongue 3 times before you speak"... such as in... literally do something physically to force myself to think before I did speak...

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Stop and think. Consider what's being said, how much you know about the facts,
is it a worthwhile 'battle' for you to engage, is it really important, etc.

Practice not saying anything for 10 seconds in one of those situations.

I love to argue... and thats what certain aquaintances of mine used to do with myself and others for fun...(seriously)...lol... and as well I often mistake fiction for facts...possibly out of comfort.

I also have been told that I hate the truth, and have a hard time accepting the truth, because I don't like my own reality.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

2. If your friends do not want to be told to 'shutup', then don't say it. That simple.
Practice not saying it. It's really weird, I never tell anyone to shutup. Even back
at the nuke plant I never said that. But to my crew... I said things a million times
worse than shutup and we all laughed. Go figure.

As mentioned... it was a word that WE ALL had used before... this person on me, and I on them- but just not around this new person... so like I said if they don't like it in some circumstances... then sometimes I think it's best just not to let it even be used at all....

because that still get's me... how it was ok sometimes but not others... when it shouldn't be ok at all...

kindof like the N word...just shouldn't be used at all... because one day someone could say it and just make someone really mad... and then they will sit there wondering why that person got mad... when it was being used all the time...

Just because it's something that shouldn't be used anyways... just like shutup, but that's a personal opinion.

[quote=Paul Myers;1213313]
3. Practice zero resistance every day. Practice ignoring rude drivers and rude people. [quote]

As mentioned in previous posts...sometimes i can't just "walk away" and I do have difficulties conveying to people that I find what they are doing to be rude... because the people often do it more then...!

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Those are thing you can work on starting today. Train your mind through repetition
every day. Awareness and practice. Pretty soon it will become a part of you.

True, i can work on it everyday...

Originally Posted by Kurt

We think of manners as being human...But in the animal world, many species have "etiquette" and if anyone crosses the line, it could be death or banishment.

I have seen this in the human world! LOOL

Originally Posted by Kurt

While there's plenty of logic, there is probably also a genetic, instinctual drive that requires us to act within certain limits.

Could you elaborate? where does "instinct" come from anyways?
Ever seen the movie "the kite runner"?... that guy just stands there and lets things happen to his friend... because his INSTINCT told him to... out of fear.

Whereas his friend sat there and TOOK the abuse FOR his friend, because his INSTINCT told him that was the way to act as well....

So on both ends... it becomes very strange... and that's where I get confused.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

If social conditioning outside the house is overriding what is being taught inside the house, then the parents aren't doing their job or doing it well enough.

As mentioned, the divorce rate in America alone these days is over 50%. That means that pretty much one in every two people has a broken up family. So on that basis alone... how does one instill these kinds of things with their kids... when they are failing in their own marriage?

I would find that hard, too, personally... to try and teach my kids everything if my own personal life and marriage were failing...

and the thing is, most people don't even know why their relationships fail etc... so that makes it even more difficult to show a child what's right, when one doesn't even know themselves...

and that's because those things are not taught in school, or anywhere... it's a learning process, and a life long process...

but still, they have to be learned somewhere, and sometime... and that's where this thread came into the picture in my life... because that sometime was now in my life.

Thanks
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by acrasial

I would find that hard, too, personally... to try and teach my kids everything if my own personal life and marriage were failing...

and the thing is, most people don't even know why their relationships fail etc... so that makes it even more difficult to show a child what's right, when one doesn't even know themselves...

and that's because those things are not taught in school, or anywhere... it's a learning process, and a life long process...

but still, they have to be learned somewhere, and sometime... and that's where this thread came into the picture in my life... because that sometime was now in my life.

True, but the reason THOSE people (parents) are having failed marriages is proably because THEIR parents didnt teach them well. Being a good parent, spouse or even a good person isn't a skill or skills that people are just born with, they are learned, taught to them by their 'mentors' in life, usually their parents. If their parents were jacked up, who are they to learn from? the 50% of divorced rate marriages you point out?

Well bad manners or bad habits in being a spouse are no different than violent relationships, they start forming a cycle, and if someone along the way doesnt have the presence of mind to stop that cycle, whether it be violence, or cheating on the spouse or just bad manners, it will never stop and it can't be righted by society as a whole..well other than with negative reinforcement.

You can get away with 'mommy and daddy didnt teach me that' when you're a kid, but if you're old enough to know what bad manners are and how bad manners affect your relationships with others then its on YOU to adjust your attitude and hone the skills for good manners

Thanks

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KimW 15 years ago

"shutup" jokingly... is actually still considered an insult... And to me I can get that as well... because at what point do insults become OK to say to people anyways?

If they really were your friends, why would you want to insult them, be it jokingly, or not? Right? So on that stance, that is also something I have a hard time with... is the joking things- becuase sometimes it really can hurt people."

Watch the movie Gran Torino
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KenThompson

15 years ago

Hi... not much time, pretty busy. But I wanted to make a quick reply.

First, I saw what Paul mentioned about "insulting" your friends. I laughed
because it reminded me of a job I used to have. We worked in crews, and
I worked with the same guys for about 9 years.

You would be floored if you ever heard the way we talked to each other. We
said the most terrible, gawd-awful things to each other. The only thing that
was "off limits" were daughters. That's it. But we always laughed because we
respected each other. It was in a nuke plant, and it's a dangerous place to
work for a lot of reasons. So we also trusted each other completely, I mean 100%.

Maybe that had a lot to do with it. But no one ever felt hurt by it. I don't
know, maybe it's a guy thing.

I cannot comment on everything you said. Just in a hurry.

But you said this...

You train your mind by repetition every day. That is how you do it.

You have a desired goal in mind. Something you are committed to changing. What
you do everyday is try to maintain your awareness of your behavior, for example.
You will not have success every day, so it's important to avoid beating up your
self when you are not successful. Just gently remind your self to keep awareness.

Here are some examples for you:

1. I'm not being sarcastic about this, but try to stop and think before you open
your mouth. This is especially important if it's a potentially inflammatory situation.

Stop and think. Consider what's being said, how much you know about the facts,
is it a worthwhile 'battle' for you to engage, is it really important, etc.

Practice not saying anything for 10 seconds in one of those situations.

2. If your friends do not want to be told to 'shutup', then don't say it. That simple.
Practice not saying it. It's really weird, I never tell anyone to shutup. Even back
at the nuke plant I never said that. But to my crew... I said things a million times
worse than shutup and we all laughed. Go figure.

3. Practice zero resistance every day. Practice ignoring rude drivers and rude people.

You do not have to be extreme and let people walk over you. I don't let anyone do
that to me. But if someone cuts in front of me, they know they did it (of course they
know), and they have no intention of moving; well, I view it as a product of a small
mind. If something like that makes a person feel better, then it seems to me there
are some issues and it's not an important battle for me to win.

You can be polite with everyone, yet firm in your approach to refuse to let people
treat you badly. And some people you just have to walk away from. Seriously.

Sometimes there is no positive outcome from engaging certain people. So leave them
to their miserable, unhappy, and probably angry selves.

Those are thing you can work on starting today. Train your mind through repetition
every day. Awareness and practice. Pretty soon it will become a part of you.

See ya 'round.

Thanks

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Kurt 15 years ago

We think of manners as being human...But in the animal world, many species have "etiquette" and if anyone crosses the line, it could be death or banishment.

While there's plenty of logic, there is probably also a genetic, instinctual drive that requires us to act within certain limits.
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Kurt

15 years ago

mojo = a voodoo good luck charm, may contain a black cat bone. Popular in southern black/creole culture. Can also mean something like kharma, which is how Paul used it.

From Blues legend Muddy Waters:

Got my mojo working, but it just won't work on you
Got my mojo working, but it just won't work on you
I wanna love you so bad till I don't know what to do
I'm going down to Louisiana to get me a mojo hand
I'm going down to Louisiana to get me a mojo hand
I'm gonna have all you women right here at my command
Got my mojo working, but it just won't work on you
Got my mojo working, but it just won't work on you
I wanna love you so bad till I don't know what to do
I got a gypsy woman givin' me advice
I got a gypsy woman givin' me advice
I got some red hot tips I got to keep on ice
Got my mojo working
Got my mojo working
Got my mojo working

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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Uhm that was the most random post ever. LOL... wow.

Thanks
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Kurt 15 years ago

Originally Posted by acrasial

Uhm that was the most random post ever. LOL... wow.

How is answering your question "random"? You're the one that asked, not me.

What is a mojo?
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- acrasial 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kurt
  
  How is answering your question "random"? You're the one that asked, not me.
  
  I meant in reference to the word in context to the colloquy itself. (Followed by the definition, and then the song...lol...)
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Kurt 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by acrasial
  
  I meant in reference to the word in context to the colloquy itself. (Followed by the definition, and then the song...lol...)
  
  You're right, I should have also included the video...My mistake.
  
  YouTube - Muddy Waters & Sonny Boy Williamson...
  
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acrasial

15 years ago

So what do you guys do when something does make you mad, or someone says something that does "irk" your feelings? how do you deal with that, and deal with it fast, so that you don't suddenly spout out some random and rude things to someone else?

Just wondering that now?

Thanks
1 reply

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by acrasial

I like to think I control my emotions, not other people.
If someone does piss me off I usually get madder at myself for allowing them to do it.
Of course what transpires between them getting me pissed and me realizing I let them can get pretty ugly.

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Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
Getting old ain't for sissy's
As you are I was, as I am you will be
You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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HeySal

15 years ago

If you're going to offend someone, do it deliberately, for a reason, and with a purpose.

So you learned your manners from my Grandmother? It is practically a word for word quote of what she taught my mother and her grandchildren. Gotta love the Cossacks.

Forks aren't manners - they are bits of social etiquette that reveal your social class. If all else fails they do make terrific weapons. Trust me on that one.

Acrasial - it depends on why what is done makes you mad. Is it because it violates your own sense of autonomy? Is it something that they do or say that you consider to be none of their business? Or is it just because you don't agree with how they think?

If it is just their way that irks you, do your best to just overlook it. Their life isn't your problem or your business. If they are trying to force some attitude or action down your throat, handle it as you will. When someone tells me that I'm not acting properly - and I do hear occasionally that I am too old for certain behaviors - I usually just tell them in some way or fashion to "go take a flying f--- at a rolling donut" or just make a rude but witty reply, whatever strikes me. When someone else is rude enough to presume that they have a right to stick their nose in my business, I let all decorum fly out the window and just trash them in the way that pleases me best to do so at the time. Just don't hit them, that's illegal. Having manners doesn't mean putting up with any crap someone wants to dish out. You have a right to expect to be treated with some respect yourself. If they can't handle that cupcake, tough noogies.

Thanks
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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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acrasial

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Forks aren't manners - they are bits of social etiquette that reveal your social class. If all else fails they do make terrific weapons. Trust me on that one.

Yup, that's what I said too... that manners aren't what everyone seems to attribute them to being... they are really alot of action, and from the looks of it, self control and self preservation.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Acrasial - it depends on why what is done makes you mad. Is it because it violates your own sense of autonomy? Is it something that they do or say that you consider to be none of their business? Or is it just because you don't agree with how they think?

I can easily get mad at things people say...even when I asked them for an opinion- that's why I came back here and asked that, because I was feeling mad at that moment...lol. Not exactly that I didn't agree, because as I have also been told, mostly people disagree on things which are actually facts, but they cannot accept them... but that is an idea.

Originally Posted by HeySal

If it is just their way that irks you, do your best to just overlook it. Their life isn't your problem or your business. If they are trying to force some attitude or action down your throat, handle it as you will.

Handling it as I will= judgement day, practically...lol! I'm not sure anyone appreciates my handling of things these days, when I am emotional haaha.

Originally Posted by HeySal

When someone tells me that I'm not acting properly - and I do hear occasionally that I am too old for certain behaviors - I usually just tell them in some way or fashion to "go take a flying f--- at a rolling donut" or just make a rude but witty reply, whatever strikes me.

I honestly HATE people who think that getting old= not living life anymore, and that aging= no longer doing things that you did when you were younger.

Although there are some things you don't do... (such as peeing the bed etc... because you learned its more clean to go to the washroom etc...obviously there are reasons why you don't do certain things anymore)

But I would agree there- Alot of people in their 50's that I know, they don't go out to the movies anymore. They dont stay up late anymore, they never even go for walks anymore... don't hold hands in public anymore- heck they don't even remember the last time they went swimming anymore.

Vacations for them= laying on the beach tanning-... they spend all that money to go to exotic places... and don't even go in the ocean... don't even see the place- nothing...

because their idea of getting old= you cant do anything anymore...it really makes me want to force them to, but I cannot.

Originally Posted by HeySal

When someone else is rude enough to presume that they have a right to stick their nose in my business, I let all decorum fly out the window and just trash them in the way that pleases me best to do so at the time. Just don't hit them, that's illegal.

But why do you have to let yourself go, disrespect yourself like that, in order to try and put them in their place? Don't you think that means they have won in a way, although I may be taking this to the extreme...

But how would you be any better than that person, if you go and trash them- doesn't that mean you have lowered yourself to his/her level then? Some people enjoy forcing a reaction out of others, and they get a high off of pain, so they create situations where people will get mad at them- and are you not adding fuel to the fire then?

Originally Posted by HeySal

Having manners doesn't mean putting up with any crap someone wants to dish out. You have a right to expect to be treated with some respect yourself. If they can't handle that cupcake, tough noogies.

What happens, if it's your own crap, that you are dishing out? as in you are your own worst enemy... LOL that's my issue now.

Thanks

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vagabondette 15 years ago

I've seen a lot of people talk about lashing out when others piss you off and IMO, that's silly. It makes you look foolish. Children have tantrums, not adults. Part of being an adult is learning how to master your emotions and just walk away. Perhaps making a comment but not lashing out. The phrase I use when people give me unwanted advice about my life (happens a LOT as I live a somewhat alternative life) is: I'm not sure why you think your opinion on that matter means anything to me but I'll take it under advisement. Then I walk away. The line is delivered with a big smile, no anger, no nothing. Just a smile then adios. But I only use that for people who repeatedly stick their nose into my life - like my family.

For strangers I just ignore them. Why the heck would I care what some random person has to say and why would I give them so much power over me that I would stay angry about it for longer than a mili-second? I have better things to do with my life. Listen to their rude comment, laugh and walk away shaking your head. Then go do something fun.
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A Discussion and Random Rant!- What Do Manners Mean To You?

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