Spanking children - yes or no?

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Im involved in a discussion here at work about spanking children. Some say that its just unheard of to spank a child and should never be done. I am on the other side of the fence and think that spanking is not beating its a form of discipline and there's nothing wrong with a little swat on the butt to get reinforce a point.

I'd like to hear from some parents on this.
  • Profile picture of the author kwalters
    I do not spank my children and the are very well behaved and respectful kids.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      When I was back in grade school, teachers were allowed to spank students that got too far out of line.

      A friend of mine was spanked one time for something. Turned out later (like shortly after the spanking), that he hadn't actually done the thing for which he was spanked. I think the other kid fessed up or someone else ratted him out after finding out the wrong kid was spanked.

      The teacher apologized, but it's kind of hard to undo a spanking, you know?

      * * *

      Many years ago, a woman and her child were in my place of work. She was using the copier, while her kid played around with the sorting trays. And, by "played around", I mean that he was smacking them around like sorting trays should not be smacked around.

      The mother would say stuff like "Stop that." or "Don't do that." But, he'd go right back to it.

      Finally, the owner went up to the woman and told her how much it would cost to repair or replace that sorting unit if it were broken.

      The next time the kid smacked the trays, he got smacked himself.

      He didn't repeat the behavior.

      * * *

      There are other examples, but I think two will suffice. So, I've seen both sides of it. Bottom line is that I don't think there is a one-size fits all approach to it. Parents have to do what works with the child. Some kids just don't listen and a spanking is the only thing that will get their attention. Just be careful not to jump to judgment of course!
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Sometimes young kids just don't get it.

    I've never touched by kid except when she was under 3 and I wanted to make sure she would not go near and/or try to play with the stove.

    I asked her if she knew what pain/hurt was and she replied that she didn't know, so I gave her a nice swat on the hand to explain.

    She winced but then slyly smiled as if she got it.

    I asked her if she understood and she said yes.

    Then I small took a piece of paper and burnt it up in front of her and told her that is what would happen to her if fire got a hold of her.

    I never found here playing anywhere near the stove anymore.

    There was 2 lines in our linoleum for that happened to mark the no kid zone around the stove and sometimes when I was cooking something she would act as if she wanted to come across the line drawn in the sand.

    Other than that, we've never touched her, but the wife has threatened on many occasions. ( it's not gana happen )

    TL
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Interesting question as people seem come down on this issue as either right or wrong. I always thought spanking a good deterrent but not an effective punishment.

    Not long ago I was at a young friend's home where her young'un just kept reaching toward the hot stove. I lost count of how many times this young mother said "no, don't touch" and tried to explain the concept of "hot" to a kid not quite 2 yrs old. At the same time she was constantly physically stopping the kid from touching the stove - and it was only the outside of the oven door. It became a game to him because he got attention.

    When I was raising my sons, I would have done one of two things:

    1. let the child touch once while you say "hot" and he'll learn quickly
    2. one swat to let the child know that "no" means "no"

    There are times when reasoning with a toddler makes no sense in the big scheme of things. If a child wanders into the street - you need to get his attention NOW and it may take a spank to do that effectively. I'd rather hurt his little psyche than have him hit by a car.

    If a child was, as above, reaching out to touch the outside of a heated oven, it's one thing. If he is reaching for a pot cooking on the stove, it's different.

    My rule was that every spanking or any other discipline was followed afterwards by a hug to show they were still loved.

    There is a lot of judgment floating around in the child raising arena - and I guess that is normal. I saw a TV show yesterday where a woman claimed boldly that any mother who wanted to work instead of stay home full-time should not have children. Easy to say when someone else pays all your bills but the woman didn't consider that.

    The most idealistic parents - the ones with all the answers - have usually not yet dealt with the terrible twos.

    kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I used to get spanked a LOT when I was younger, and I can say it didn't do any good. I got into a lot of trouble in my teen years.

    And if spanking "works" why is that I had to KEEP getting spanked? I know somebody that spanks their kids all the time, and the kids are little brats.

    I spanked my youngest once, because it was needed. It wasn't a severe paddling, but enough to get the message across. And many people say my child is very well-behaved, respectful, and a great kid (and that includes other parents, not just grandma and grandpa).

    Spanking shouldn't be the punishment of choice. But it can be applied judiciously to great effect.

    I will still spank my youngest if needed, but now grounding from TV or the computer does the trick. Also, soanking should only be done if the kids truly needs it, not because the parent is angry and can't handle the situation.

    All the best,
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Who remembers the first time their child bucked and said no???


    TL
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    I give my oldest kid "the" sanctions cause i find it more effective then any slap in the butt.

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        • Profile picture of the author chippy69
          I couldn't agree more. I have kids 9, 4 and one due in May (no I'm not a glutton for punishment) and a strategically placed and well timed spanking is indeed a deterent! Once the precedent has been set, the perceived danger of a "potential" spanking is usually enough after that.
          On the other hand, I have to agree with TMG in saying that toddlers are a completely different ballgame and one must do what one must do (just to keep your sanity).
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  • Profile picture of the author wirelessgeek
    I don't have kids myself, so I'm no expert, but I think a paddle on the bottom is okay if the kid is real young, 5 or less, and you need to get their attention. I mean, not so hard you're causing bruises or welts, because it is easy to cross the line into child abuse.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Tina,
    "I also rarely raised my voice so when I did, it was like EF Hutton speaking - everyone shut up."

    That's how I was too. All my kids needed to hear was a rather loud "Thats enough!"
    and it would stop them in their tracks. I rarely raised my voice but when I did they knew I meant business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This thread brought back memories:

      My Mother used an old-fashioned flyswatter to keep my boys in line when they were at her house. To my knowledge, the flyswatter never touched either of them but the threat of reaching inside the door to the basement to "get the flyswatter" was enough to stop them in their tracks. My 98 lb mother was in total control.

      I am not one who shouts or raises their voice often. Usually, the angrier I get the softer my voice is.

      When my younger son was about 10 I overheard him talking to his friend out on the deck. The other little boy had said "I like your Mom - she doesn't yell at you all the time" and my son replied "No, but when she talks soft you better listen real loud".

      Priceless!

      EDIT: I'm not anti-spanking but I am against using anything other than your bare hand. Reason is simple - you don't know how it feels to your child unless you feel it, too.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        I spanked my youngest when she was around 3 to 5.
        It was used more to get her attention then as a punishment.
        I never, ever spanked her when I was angry and actually would spank her harder when we played then I ever did when it was part of getting her attention. By the way she laughed when I spanked her playing, yet cried when it was to get her attention because she knew a lecture and punishment where at hand.
        I rarely yelled at any of the girls, but they all knew if I told them to stop doing something I only told them once. The second time I would get up and escort them to their room or the car if we where out.
        If they did something that required a punishment, we would sit and talk about it so they understood what they did was wrong.Weather there was a punishment after that depended on what they did and how the talk went.
        One rule we had with that was if anyone involved was angry they would go to their room until they where calm and then talk.
        That rule included me and the wife.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Yep, an infrequent raised voice, a certain tone, or even the right look does the trick most of the time. But, once you use spanking as the punishment of choice, where do you go from there? Harder spankings?

    If "the look" doesn't work you can move on to a different tone if the kid doesn't listen. Then you can go to raising your voice, and then a spanking if needed.

    On the other hand, there are cases where you don't have the time to go through the punishment continuum - where a deliberate spanking has to be done...now.

    As mentioned, my mom would spank us all the time, and I don't think it helped. My dad only spanked me once. I was running into the road with oncoming traffic. I was maybe 3, but the lesson stuck.

    I'm glad corporal punishment has gone away (for the most part). Only a parent should decide when a spanking is necessary.

    ~M~
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Only a parent should decide when a spanking is necessary.

      ~M~
      The problem is that parents dont.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

        The problem is that parents dont.
        Some parents do, as this thread shows. You can't make blanket statements like that.

        But it doesn't matter.

        If a parent decides that their child should NEVER be spanked, then the school shouldn't do it.

        First you say that parents should be responsible. Then you say schools should be? Maybe it's not Steve that needs the Ritalin.

        ~M~
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Some parents do, as this thread shows. You can't make blanket statements like that.

          But it doesn't matter.

          If a parent decides that their child should NEVER be spanked, then the school shouldn't do it.

          First you say that parents should be responsible. Then you say schools should be? Maybe it's not Steve that needs the Ritalin.

          ~M~
          If the parents raise their child right, then they wont be. If you dont do your job as a parent and not raise a little heathern, then you dont get to tell everyone else in the world they just have to put up with the little monster. If you dont square them away, the world will.

          No, im not saying schools SHOULD be, but if mom and dad dont do the job, schools will, even though its not their job to begin with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Shorey
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      My dad only spanked me once. I was running into the road with oncoming traffic. I was maybe 3, but the lesson stuck.


      ~M~
      Enough said.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I am vehemently opposed to hitting anybody especially a child or an animal.

    It sends completely the wrong message that the way to deal with conflict is by violence.

    It is someone bigger hitting someone smaller - it makes them feel victimized - and the victim often becomes the oppressor/abuser in later life.

    I may have 'hauled off' and smacked my son once or twice at the most and the last time he put his dukes up which scared the hell out of me - so I remembered to control myself from there on.

    There should be a relationship between you and your kids where they listen to what you tell them to do. It's called respect and trust. Both are earned.

    (not saying I knew how to do this but that would be the ideal).
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  • Profile picture of the author specters
    Well ever heard of the concept of "playing", this discipline is obviously an example and if you look at psychoanalysis the super-ego gets inflated in violently (more) disciplined children to the point where they will break down if they don't accomplish important tasks, but the problem is that people are never satisfied. So it can be verbal or physical, but I abide with a more academic, showing possible routes and consequences, making it interesting, unpredictable, stimulating, even fun to learn to have "responsibility". Adults are basically overgrown babies that need a government, bosses, money market, media to watch over them, and they fight, spaz out, skip work, do illegal things etc. The only way we will ever have world peace is if parents stop hitting their children. Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by specters View Post

      Well ever heard of the concept of "playing", this discipline is obviously an example and if you look at psychoanalysis the super-ego gets inflated in violently (more) disciplined children to the point where they will break down if they don't accomplish important tasks, but the problem is that people are never satisfied. So it can be verbal or physical, but I abide with a more academic, showing possible routes and consequences, making it interesting, unpredictable, stimulating, even fun to learn to have "responsibility". Adults are basically overgrown babies that need a government, bosses, money market, media to watch over them, and they fight, spaz out, skip work, do illegal things etc. The only way we will ever have world peace is if parents stop hitting their children. Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi?
      so the reason we are at war is because parents spank their kids? And if we stop spanking kids, we will magically stop having war, because we will no longer need resources, and people will no longer kill other people?

      Wow, what a spectacular world this would be...lets get this out to all parents...NO MORE SPANKINGS!!....FOR WORLD PEACE!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
    Spanking is only used as a complete last resort.

    As many have said if you use it all the time, it loses its effectiveness. I probably feel worse than they do if I actually do have to spank them. Thankfully, I've only ever had to do it 3 times.

    One mistake I know a lot of parents make, they make threats then don't carry out with them or make ambiguous threats.

    If you say something like:

    "If you don't stop, I'm going to turn this car around."

    if they don't stop, you better turn the car around. Otherwise, they'll learn that you don't mean business when you say something. (I truly believe this is where most parents go wrong.)

    An example of an ambiguous threat is something like:

    "Keep that up and see what happens!"

    No, you have to tell them EXACTLY what's going to happen if they keep it up. Then of course actually follow through with it.

    I definitely agree with the notion that if you spank, don't do it out of anger. That's just completely wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    How can a child be 'just plain bad' unless it is directly because of their environment. And when it comes to early development, who is in charge of their environment?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      How can a child be 'just plain bad' unless it is directly because of their environment. And when it comes to early development, who is in charge of their environment?
      First of all, there's all kinds of "bad". Second, it's not always about environment.

      Case in point, my wife comes from a "typical" family. Parents are still married to this day. Growing up, there was family dinner every night at 6. Family discussions during dinner. Family nights out. Lived in an upper middle class home, great neighbors.

      Father not abusive, nor a drunk. Mother used to help her brothers make home movies to fuel their ambitions and imaginations. Church goers...

      They even had family dogs.

      None ever got spanked, had good communication all around.

      One of the three (not my wife) became a raging alcoholic. Another (not my wife) had severe drug addiction problems for 20 plus years. Which also led to some small time criminal activity to fund it.

      My in-laws beat themselves up for years wondering where they went "wrong".

      They realize now they didn't. Both started their problems after leaving home. Which gos to show that you can raise good kids, but that doesn't mean they will be good adults.

      If you read up on some serial killers through the years you will probably find much of the same thing I described above in their early childhood years.

      So, while I do believe that parents are a LARGE cause of the way kids behave, it's not always so cut and dried.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        First of all, there's all kinds of "bad". Second, it's not always about environment.

        Case in point, my wife comes from a "typical" family. Parents are still married to this day. Growing up, there was family dinner every night at 6. Family discussions during dinner. Family nights out. Lived in an upper middle class home, great neighbors.

        Father not abusive, nor a drunk. Mother used to help her brothers make home movies to fuel their ambitions and imaginations. Church goers...

        They even had family dogs.

        None ever got spanked, had good communication all around.

        One of the three (not my wife) became a raging alcoholic. Another (not my wife) had severe drug addiction problems for 20 plus years. Which also led to some small time criminal activity to fund it.

        My in-laws beat themselves up for years wondering where they went "wrong".

        They realize now they didn't. Both started their problems after leaving home. Which gos to show that you can raise good kids, but that doesn't mean they will be good adults.

        If you read up on some serial killers through the years you will probably find much of the same thing I described above in their early childhood years.

        So, while I do believe that parents are a LARGE cause of the way kids behave, it's not always so cut and dried.
        You look like you are a good guy, nice family. Do you think your son will be a bum? drug addict?..etc.? probably not. Why? because in the future when he comes to the point that he's in a situation where he is going to make a decision that is going to effect his future. He's going to be offered drugs, or drink or buddies will want him to go do something illegal. And the decision he makes is going to be based around the moral foundation laid down by mom and dad. Because you are a good person (atleast appear to be) the foundation you are laying right now will lead him in the right direction and it wouldnt matter what anyone else said...his mom and dad raised him right and he knows the correct decision.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

          You look like you are a good guy, nice family. Do you think your son will be a bum? drug addict?..etc.? probably not. Why? because in the future when he comes to the point that he's in a situation where he is going to make a decision that is going to effect his future. He's going to be offered drugs, or drink or buddies will want him to go do something illegal. And the decision he makes is going to be based around the moral foundation laid down by mom and dad. Because you are a good person (atleast appear to be) the foundation you are laying right now will lead him in the right direction and it wouldnt matter what anyone else said...his mom and dad raised him right and he knows the correct decision.

          You are right.

          My point was simply this...no matter HOW good you are, HOW good the foundation is, there are no guarantees.

          Kids don't come with warranties.

          Statistic I read years ago: kids who have an active father figure in their life are 60% less likely to get involved with drugs, crime etc.

          Well that's all nice. But that leaves another 40% with active father figures who WILL get involved with drugs, crime, etc.

          The best you can to is to do your best. This will increase your odds.

          There's the other side too...

          I was raised pretty much without a father. Absentee. And a mother who had great intentions, but had to work 3 jobs due to absentee father.

          From the time I was 12, I was pretty much making decisions I should not have been making.

          By 13, I lost my virginity, started smoking cigarettes, pot, drinking and even driving cars.

          I even stole a car once.

          But by the time I was 17, common sense kicked in. Pretty much stopped with the stupid stuff. Started taking care of my little sister so she would not make the same mistakes I did.

          Today, I am pretty straight-laced. I drink MAYBE 5 beers a year.

          My 2 oldest sons (21 and 19) DO come tome when they need advice, etc.

          They both do stupid things too - just not as stupid as the things I did.

          Never had to raise a hand to them, but I always let them know it was a possibility. They respected my glare

          No guarantees.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            One mistake I know a lot of parents make, they make threats then don't carry out with them or make ambiguous threats.
            So you knew my last wife?
            She was a fantastic person and loved her girls, but that was her one fault.
            Her girls knew it too.
            Her first husband (the girls father) was worse.
            If any of the girls cried he would just yell at their mother to shut them up.
            The girls learned early if they wanted something crying worked, until they moved in with me and I became the step dad
            The first time one of the girls tried that with me, I put my arm around her shoulders and walked her to her room.
            As I left her room I told her she could come out when she stopped crying.
            She came out right away crying, so I walked her right back to her room repeating the instructions.
            When she came out later she looked at me and said "the crying isn't going to work with you is it?".
            I just smiled.

            As a side note, I knew all three of my last wife's daughters from the day each was born.
            Because their father was a drunk, they had all been treating me as their father long before we started living together so there wasn't any problems from the 'new guy' trying to be their dad.
            To this day (the girls are 29, 27, and 21) they all still consider me their 'dad'.
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  • Profile picture of the author seriousmny
    Spankings were popular in my house. I received my last spanking probably in the 6th grade. I forgot to clean my room. I remember my dad warning me several times before he went to work but I just plain forgot and went outside to play. Next thing I knew, dad was home from work and that room was not clean.

    My dad called me inside and put a belt to my hind quarters for not cleaning my room, all the while my window was open and my friends heard everything. I had to go outside afterward to tell them I had to clean my room and I was teased something terrible.

    I did not spank my child. I regret it. She has been a very difficult individual to deal and was quite disrespectful. I was briefly married to her father and he had no input in the parenting due to his elective absence. I was mostly was a single parent and it was difficult. She elected to learn from life by "experiencing life" rather than listening to reason. In fact, she did put her hand on the stove to find out it was hot after I told her it was hot at the age of 5 or 6. She was just that stubborn.

    She is now a young lady of 19 years old and has found it hard to socialize with others because I did not reinforce consequences to breaking home rules and bad behavior. She just never listened when I told her people are not going to put up with your crap.

    It has taken a couple of threats and beat downs for her to realize...hey..these folks are serious and I need to get a grip. I guess that's another one of her "living my experience" things. I listened to my parents, respected them, and very rarely did I go against the things they were trying to tell me. I have always erred on the side of caution.

    In the end, I think careful use of spankings is needed but not in anger. Children need guidance and correction. We cannot be out children's buddy. The correctional system subjects it's felons to rape, beatings, and all sorts of horrors.

    I think that a spanking in childhood to prevent them from landing there is not out of order and should be enforced because once they land in the US correctional system, they are free game to all types of predators and no one feels sorry for them then.

    That rod will drive all foolishness away and save them from undue trauma later in life. It also teaches them consequences.

    On a positive note, now that my daughter has grown up some and experienced consequences, we get along a whole lot better and she asks me how I dealt with her stinky attitude and realizes she was mistaken about a great many things.

    My greatest regret is that I only was able to have 1 child so I could get a second chance to "get it right" so to speak from a parent's perspective.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amy Hainz
      My parents spanked us as children. They never did it just because they were upset at us.

      I have 1 child and we spank her sometimes. There is a difference between spanking and beating a child. If you leave bruises on the child, that is beating. I have to agree with an earlier comment about young children sometimes not understanding and sometimes spanking is the best way to punish.

      We try and punish in several ways. Sometimes one works and the other doesn't. It also depends on the child. Some children are more hard headed and grounding them from something might just not work with them.

      Each person should choose how to discpline their own children. As long as they're not leaving bruises and spanking to be spanking, I see nothing wrong with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Punishment isn't really all that hard (most of the time). If you start "training them" young.

    All you need to do is find that ONE thing that will make them actually feel punished.

    I have a 3-strike rule. My 6 year old has never gone past strike 2 (yet). My 2 older ones were a different story

    My oldest HAD to be doing stuff at all times. Never one to sit, he was always outside playing with his friends. It was tough just to get him inside to eat dinner. His "punishment" was easy - sitting on my bed, no T.V., no nothing for a pre-determined period of time (depending on the offense).

    My next oldest LOVED video games (Nintendo 64 back then). Had to pry the remote from his fingers on nice days (had a policy about that too - nice days, outside!). So HIS punishment was easy also.

    The final key is to ALWAYS follow through with what you say.

    Warning 1 - Knock that off right now...

    Warning 2 - Strike 2. Do that again and you will sit on my bed for the next 20 minutes while all your friends are playing.

    Strike 3 - Ok, you were warned. (execute punishment).

    It's a simple formula that worked for me very well. Only had to get to strike 3 a few times each.

    My step daughter is a different story. All my wife has to do is give a certain look and she melts. She is a sweet kid.
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  • Profile picture of the author MissDarling
    OMG!!! After working in a public school system filled with kids that know no discipline I say let's bring back the wooden spoon!! The problem is, many people just can't find a balance with disciplinary tactics. Seriously, a nice big wooden spoon can work wonders for one kid while it's absolutely not the way to go for another.

    It would be truly amazing if common sense could be used more commonly to decide if a kid needs a good old fashioned whipping with a big fat switch that they had to go look for in the woods on their own.

    lol.... memories!!!

    I also would like to add if you say you are going to do something you better do it before the bar gets raised on you and you have to keep striking to get your point across.
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  • Profile picture of the author check_itjess
    hi newbie here...

    i think it would be best if you spank your children...for them to be respectful. not totally beat them to death...me, personally i experience being spank by my father...and it made me respectful and disciplined person.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenster
    Spanking is great for some kids and horrible with others. Parenting must be flexible because all children and all people are different, so you must adapt your parenting style and methods depending on your child.

    I know for me, spaking was the only thing that worked. It only happened a few times, but thats the point, I learned not to do things because there was that fear there...I was a little devil growing up

    for others spanking doesnt work at all. It can have negative consequences.

    Spanking children - yes or no? DEPENDS


    ps, i dont mean beating or injuring your child...spanking is more dramatic than physical
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  • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
    I got spanked a few times when I was a kid, but that was before my dad left when I was 11. It was the only "real" discipline I ever got, which I can count on one hand.

    I really didn't get squat from my parents. Of course, neither of them are particularly good people to be around.

    My dad was an abusive, sociopathic narcissist who's completely incapable of empathizing with another human being. I have a strict rule with sociopaths - there is NO hope for them, so don't energy on them except to keep them as far away as possible. He's been out of my life since I was 12, and there's been no reason to bring him back.

    My mother played the martyr all her life - as bad as my dad was to her, he can only be blamed for so much. They've been divorced for years. I could never develop a true mother/daughter bond with her - she used everything I said against me (I remember being six and complaining that everything I said was used against me later), lied to me, lied about me, read my journals without any good reason, told friends and family she didn't have faith in me and repeatedly stabbed me in the back. We have nothing in common and even though she "loves" me, she hates everything that I'm about. Worst of all, I have THE most amazing man who's gone above and beyond the call of duty of a boyfriend, and who I plan to marry in a year - and for her own selfish, jealous reasons, she hates him.

    I just recently got out of her house. First I wondered what to do about money, but I have much greater plans than ever and for the first time in years my life's been on track.

    People ask me if I want to "make up with my parents one day". "Making up" implies there was a relationship that was damaged. Both of them have trails of negative energy, for their own reasons. One parent's issues are more concrete while the other's are more abstract, but neither are good people. It's sad that neither of my biological parents have a place in my life... but it is what it is.

    I have to say I was lucky, though. I'm entirely self-made. I learned from my own mistakes. I figure things out for myself. I'm the most ambitious person I know. I don't doubt whether or not I can get through things, I merely get annoyed that I have to get through it. I still make mistakes - some of them outright stupid - but I make a point to learn from them all the time. I do all this and more without the help (or now, hinderances) of my biological parents.

    That said...

    Punishment should not so much be out of anger but teaching the consequences of one's actions. This includes spanking. Show as much unconditional love to your child as you can. Even if her aspirations don't quite match yours. Even if he has purple hair. In the end, your children decide their own paths - their odds of success greatly increase with your guidance, support and undying love.
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  • Profile picture of the author steveblum
    My wife and I decided not to spank but instead use the time-out option. You have to be consistent or it doesn't work. Sometimes you feel like a spanking is the only option, especially when they don't listen - but to this day with a 2 year old - no spankings.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

    Im involved in a discussion here at work about spanking children. Some say that its just unheard of to spank a child and should never be done. I am on the other side of the fence and think that spanking is not beating its a form of discipline and there's nothing wrong with a little swat on the butt to get reinforce a point.
    I'd like to hear from some parents on this.
    Where is the line between a tap and a beating, who decides where that line is ? the person doing the beating.

    So many people think they know where the line is and yet have no idea, even a no mark policy is crap, what about emotional scares that may never heal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      Where is the line between a tap and a beating, who decides where that line is ? the person doing the beating.

      So many people think they know where the line is and yet have no idea, even a no mark policy is crap, what about emotional scares that may never heal.
      I'm pretty sure that the generation upon generation before today's kids that were beaten and 'emotionally scarred' were somehow able to recover from this no doubt traumatizing event and were amazingly able to carry on with their lives and were to become productive citizens.

      amazing.
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  • Profile picture of the author donnyg18
    Just read something about it and it is as well being debated.

    "Spanking is one of the most controversial discipline methods. On one side of the debate are parents who believe it is all right to spank their children. On the other side are those who think that children should never be spanked. Somewhere in the middle are parents who believe that spanking should only be used in particular instances (e.g., when the child runs into the street). Part of the reason for the debate is that parents and experts often define spanking differently. To some, spanking means "slapping a child on the buttocks", while others consider spanking a generic term for any corporal punishment that does not cause an injury, such as slapping a child's hand for touching something forbidden or dangerous."

    Can't seem to think of anything right now myself but the thought made me wonder as well
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  • Profile picture of the author archiebunk
    OK, You go into a store and you have a child that you spoiled all his or her life, when every time it held out it's hand and went ahah, you gave it what ever they wanted. And if you didn't give this child everything they wanted they started to scream at the top of their lungs until you give it to them. And of couse you give it to them because he or she is your sweet little darling, and you can't stand the screaming. The older they get the more they know that if they scream louder and louder, you will give it to them. Of course their your sweet little baby. IT GETS OUT OF HAND. When you go into this store and your wonderful child is screaming their heads off. "Oh sweety please don't scream like that". Baloney, that don't work. What that kid needs is a good swat on the butt. It affects all the other people in the store. It has happen in the past that someone else has grabbed a child that was'nt theirs and gave them a swat on the butt. I'm not saying that someone else should do this but goes to show what a lot of people are thinking. There were times when some screaming little brat was making so much noise, I would liked to have spanked their butts, while their parents were saying "honey, sweety, please do sream". And I'll bet that after a stranger grabed that child and spanked its butt that child would think twice about screaming in a store again. When words don't work, it's time, and they need a good swat on the butt.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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  • Profile picture of the author Sandy Hands
    Something done - can not be undone. Maintenance is not undoing, it is applying enough layers so that what was done fades to obscurity (or to less importance than the replacement).

    From an early age (perhaps 6 or 7 from memory), I fought for "kid power" and "child liberation." As a parent of 5 (3 girls, 2 boys), I find myself now fighting for parent's rights. Be careful what you wish for comes to mind......

    The question of right or wrong can only be answered in context of the event. It is an over simplification to say it is right or wrong to discipline children via a spanking.

    Parents are not perfect - kids are not perfect. We educate ourselves via many avenues and journeys - there are no prerequisite courses or licenses required for being a parent.

    Social norms and cultural backgrounds influence many of our opinions and actions. Ideas and concepts float with evolution. What we do changes. For better or worse is a question best left to your own counsel to determine. The purpose of posting is not to be judgmental in the sense of imperfect actions, but to acknowledge that every individual situation has some unique influences and qualities which make it practicably impossible to apply unilateral governance - even if, as a society we choose to set the legal boundaries by the governing thought of the socially loud minority.

    The personal injustices I witnessed and received as a child were considered "normal" for the time. I will not elaborate on the extensiveness of these events or how they shaped my crusade for "kids rights," other than to say, broom handles with staples used over bare knuckles and calf muscles did very little for me, other than to arouse a keen sense of injustice. Watching adults physically kick students around a classroom remains etched in my memory. Listening to the news over 20 years ago and hearing of an abusive father who made his 3 year old daughter eat her own vomit, after continually beating her - still makes sickens me to the core. Receiving a belting at age 4, I can recall the horror, the fright, the mood and the movement of the arm and belt - I do not recall the reason or the lesson - but I am sure there was one.

    The problem with discipline is not the application, but the contorted and indefensible actions that were born from an incorrect assumption or accusation. Simply - the punishment in many situations does not fit the crime.

    Parents defend their actions by justifying it against predetermined patterns of behavior that have some escalating characteristics. The proverbial volcano approach that is the result of habit more than good management or sound parenting. We use the tools we developed to carve the journey. Whether those tools are adequate or not, is a constant question posed in many minds that are searching for redemption.

    For many others, they are the cupboard full of skeletons that evoke a continual acupuncture of the brain - piece by piece the jigsaw gets distorted and rearranged - a living mosaic of yesterday's actions against today's backdrop.

    Some would argue that a spanking is forgotten long before the mental anguish of psychological manipulation or verbal abuse.

    For me, its pretty simple. My grandmother (rest in peace), always treated children as "little people." In other words, her actions and discussion were always centered on making each child the most important person in the world for the duration of whatever activity was taking place. Her complete and undivided attention with paramount honesty was direct, involved and unconditional. The maturity of that approach was something I never really understood until much later in life. The rest of the world could be caving in around me, but knowing that one person treated me as a "real person" was enough to grab hold of and claw a future from the jaws of defeat.

    To her, we were people first and children second. I can not tell you how much her actions saved me from myself and from leading a life of "socially acceptable, but morally questionable" behavior.

    I try and fail every day as a parent in many ways. At the end of that day, I make a promise to myself, to be a little bit better tomorrow.

    You really do not know what your children will remember or not remember. When they are sitting with their friends 30 years from now, how will they remember their childhood and what will influence them to be the best person they can be? A memory pierced with punishment, a memory of challenges and victories, a memory of smiles and adventures? A memory that someone cared about them and treated them with consistency and respect?

    The answer is probably an overwhelming combination of everything, yet the most poignant memories will be those that pierced their heart. Situations of great triumph and of great injustice. Menial actions that are part of routine consistency help shape our character, but are not always, and perhaps even rarely, part of our vivid and relived memories.

    Discipline does not have to equate to abuse - the root of evil in this temperament is the lack of consistency and varying perception of how behaviors were interpreted by both parties. Too often as parents we are judge, jury and implementer - with no right of recourse to the inflicted party. We lash out with default actions that are akin to primal instinctive behaviors in animals. We correct actions we perceive as needing correcting based on our own ideology and social norms as opposed to those that are governing our children.

    I look and wonder whether a lack of discipline and consequential actions are responsible for many less than acceptable behaviors in our children. Then I think back to the school yard and wishing for a better life for kids. Then I remember that we have more information about our kids and their activities, than at anytime in history. Perhaps ignorance is bliss........

    We are evolving to something better all the time (each generation is quoted as saying they would like to have been at school and had the opportunities that their children now have). The hard part as relics is to understand we are making way for the new. Our role is to support that process and offer our most constructive attributes if what we seek is the most successful outcomes. We put people on the earth to become themselves, not become manifestos of our own self imposed importance.

    If you can look in a mirror with your child standing behind you, and truthfully say that you have treated them as you would like to have been treated yourself, then you are very close to finding the answers for your own situation.

    A child will look for the best in a person until proven that it does not exist. If more adults could do the same, I wonder how the world would be?

    Abuse of any type is justified and defended after the event, not before it. Discipline on the other hand is a premeditated course of action with distinctive consistency. Parents can be quick to dole out punishment as a consequence of discipline, yet deliver it with an abusive wrapper. I often question my own actions to determine if the rewards are dished out in equal distribution or at least with equal consideration and intent, as the punishment.

    Children are born survivors. Adults are emotionally frail and loaded with contempt, and self deceit. It is quicker to administer a fix of "punishment" under the guise of discipline, than it is to plan parenting activities.

    Who can blame parents? Food, house, bills, work, promotions, friends, partners, travel, sport etc - where's the time to learn parenting? Who needs to? Who cares to? Where is the time to be a better parent - oh yeah! Tomorrow........ Amazing how many parents turn into fantastic grand parents................

    There are no right or wrong answers. I am not advocating one rule fits all. If nothing else, writing down some thoughts caused me to take a close look at how I parent - - again.... If that leads to making better decisions tomorrow - then a huge thank you to Michael for starting the thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        It has absolutely nothing to do with
        'over-simplification' in the slightest.

        Is anyone here advocating that if it's
        ok to hit a child that it is also ok for
        a man to hit his spouse or girlfriend?

        Where do you draw the line?

        Most reasonable thinking people here
        would be horrified at the thought of
        any form of domestic abuse or violence
        towards women.

        If this is the case between adults, how
        on earth can it possibly be justified that
        hitting a child is somehow ok?
        Mark, people have different definitions of what ABUSE is and what DISCIPLINE is and, I'm sorry, they are not necessarily your definition. In no way do I believe that swatting a bottom when your child does something that could endanger its own life is a form of abuse.

        Case in point, a bunch of years back, my oldest son (a little over 2 at the time) broke free of my hand coming out of the grocery store and started running towards the parking lot. Horrified, I dropped my bags, grabbed him by the shirt collar just as he was about to run in front of a moving vehicle.

        Yup - I swatted his butt.

        Nope, he never did it again.

        Fast forward 19 years (he's 21 now), he's no worse for wear. He was not scarred for life. In fact, we have an awesome relationship. He just called me yesterday for car buying advice (just secured his first auto loan).

        I never had to swat him again either, so it was a very effective lesson in my viewpoint. Better a swatting than burying him, no?

        Oh, and by the way - I have a VERY clear understanding of the difference between swatting a child on the butt and spousal abuse. I think lumping them together is simply a good way for advocates and politicians to make a point.

        What I did that day was in no way abuse as defined by those I mentioned above.

        I do agree, however, that many folks out there blur the lines considerably. In my view they should not be parents.

        Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author bizz1man
            A little spank on the butt if a child is out of control is a good wake up call for them. It must not hurt them just grab there attention. If you think about it years ago parents used to spank there kids and kids back then did not seem to get in much trouble. Now they are not afraid of authority and commit more violent crimes at much younger ages. This may be a broad view but just a thought.
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        • Profile picture of the author JAIDEEP2959
          I did get spanked by my father in the childhood.

          I think it's wrong to spank a child when you know that kids are expected to make mistakes due to ignorance.

          I will never spank my children.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
            Originally Posted by JAIDEEP2959 View Post

            I did get spanked by my father in the childhood.

            I think it's wrong to spank a child when you know that kids are expected to make mistakes due to ignorance.

            I will never spank my children.
            spankings arent for mistakes due to ignorance. Spankings are for actions when they know better.
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  • Profile picture of the author Star Riley
    I think everyone but children should be spanked after all its not kids that let adults down its we who let them down.

    We lie and tell them its wrong! Ever heard of Santa Clause delivering gifts?

    We cheat and steal or lie about cheating and stealing and any measure off, is stealing wither taxes or otherwise.

    We curse and swear it horrible thing to do unless your an ADULT.

    We waste opportunities and claim the world is unfair, yet through it all expect our Kids to be mentally and emotionally stable.

    I threaten my kids all the time if they do not behave like adults I'm going to beat their Father!

    They usually give me the look of Daddy can we get popcorn and watch?
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Mark,

    You are 100% correct. Physical ABUSE has long lasting, usually very bad effects.

    I am sorry to hear what you have endured and understand your viewpoint completely. I am from a family of 4 kids and were never abused. I have 4 kids and have NEVER hit one out of anger, nor used physical means as a punishment for bad behavior.

    But I think in today's society, we have way too many talking heads that will tell you ANY form of "discipline" is no good...

    Don't use time-outs.

    Taking away their toys is bad.

    No TV for a week...no.

    I mean it gets utterly ridiculous. And I would venture a guess that the ones who espouse THAT philosophy never had kids...

    All I know is this... there have been times in my adult life where I would be, for example, walking down the street, ready to cross at a light. And just as I step a foot in the road, I get one of those nagging senses. I look up just in time to see some A-Hole jumping the light and would have run me down.

    My little sense - I don't know what it was. People would attribute that differently, to be sure. But in MY mind, in the dark recesses of my mind MAYBE I suddenly remembered a swat my own mother gave me as I tried to run across a street...

    This is a hot button issue. But as much as we need temperance about how we "punish" our children, there also needs to be common sense from those who really just use this subject as a means to their own ends.

    Children NEED discipline. Not abuse...discipline.

    Abuse, by the way, is not reserved to:

    Physical
    Women
    Children
    Animals

    During my first marriage, my then wife was so verbally and emotionally abusive to me that I am really surprised I ended up getting remarried. It took a good 6 years of therapy to get "over" it.

    But if there were any positives to take from that experience, it was this...

    It taught me how NOT to treat others.

    It made me be MUCH more of an active father to my sons, even though I did not have custody. To this day, my 19 year old has MAJOR issues with his mother because of her mouth. She destroyed her second marriage the same way she destroyed ours. But when my son comes to my house and sees me with my current wife he understands that things CAN be good, and normal.

    Abuse sucks.

    BTW, I took no offense at all.

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    We'd be misbehaving, fighting, bad as demons from hell. Screaming. Carrying on like banshees.

    Mom would slide into the room and we'd stop dead in our tracks... uh oh... she'd smile slyly, "what's going on in here?"... Oscar winning performance... pretending that she was just there for a social call.

    We'd let out guards down thinking there wasn't anything coming, and she'd sneak up next to us.

    Then, like Wolverine, with blades rocketing out of the back of his hand, that damn avocado green plastic flyswatter would appear out of nowhere. She was a master ninja, twirling it around like nunchaku... damn woman and her flyswatter kata... the most hardened Samurai would have fled in sheer terror at the sight.

    WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP on the bare legs....

    DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN THAT $HIT HURTS!!!!

    waffle print

    "IF I HAVE TO COME IN HERE AGAIN, I WILL..."

    (and this is where it got really bad)

    "TELL YOUR FATHER WHEN HE GETS HOME!!!!!"


    In all fairness, we gave that woman every grey hair on her head.

    But in the end, we turned out just fine - largely due to her Grandma Walton attitude.



    Now... this was a cute, but true story.

    But I want to illustrate the real point.

    We were hardened criminals at age 7. The only way to get our attention was to get down on our thug life level and punk us down like dogs.

    But, all I have to do is point at my daughter with a glare, and she bursts into tears and comes running to me wanting a hug and reassurance that Daddy still loves her.

    Of course she gets a sweeping hug and a quiet discussion about how daddy only gets on her for things that are important because he loves her and wants her to be a good person when she grows up.


    Every kid is different. There's no such thing as a "one size fits all" method of discipline.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      What a refreshing surprise to see this discussion turn back to the positive. I've been following it but not getting back involved as it seemed to be degenerating and I fully thought it was going to end up in an online "brawl".

      Kudos to both Mark and Mike for bringing it back to discussion level and taking the heat back out of the topic. If everyone could do that, we wouldn't need rules about certain topics...lol.

      Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        What a refreshing surprise to see this discussion turn back to the positive. I've been following it but not getting back involved as it seemed to be degenerating and I fully thought it was going to end up in an online "brawl".

        Kudos to both Mark and Mike for bringing it back to discussion level and taking the heat back out of the topic. If everyone could do that, we wouldn't need rules about certain topics...lol.

        Tina
        I guess all those years of therapy paid off for me

        Thanks Tina.
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  • Profile picture of the author seanyd
    I try not to spank the children but sometimes they do push you over the edge and they`ll probaly end up doing the same thing tomorrow , its a long learning curve
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  • Profile picture of the author talewins
    Yesterday my daughter tangled with the real danger of spanking a child these days. The poor kid has an iq double mine, doing algebra and geometry in kindergarten. Yesterday she decided she needed a play pretty. When she didn't get it she began hurling the other purchases out of the shopping cart.We are talking attention-getting breakables here.
    The counting started.. One! Two! Okay, SWAT.
    The little girl began bawling and said: "I am not moving from here until I get my play pretty." Another swat. This time there were witnesses, beady-eyed witnesses.
    They followed my daughter up to the cash register. Grand daughter began hurling more goodies out of the basket. Another swat. Witnesses crowded in close; they followed the wailing child out to the parking lot.
    Wailing Child was put in the back seat and the seat belt cinched. Wailing child began wailing in earnest, demanding that they go back to get her play pretty.
    My daughter began backing up, carefully to keep from running over the beady-eyed witnesses. Suddenly the back door opened and the seat belt popped apart. Wailing Child was almost on the pavement when Mama's big hand met the hind end of the willfully disobedient child. "What are you doing to her?" one of the witnesses demaned.
    "What I should have done in the first place. Now, get out of my way."

    I know there are too many heavy hands out there, but reproving betimes with sharpness has a whole lot going for it, even when the beady-eyed witnesses have cell phones.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I like several here only use spanking as a deterrent, but not as a regular form of punishment. I will use it as a form of communication to keep them from danger. I find that parents that use spankings as a regular form of punishment tend to do it when they are angry, and that can easily lead to abuse.

    However, I have many family members in the education field. And there's not a single one of them that doesn't tell stories of how disrespectful kids are at school these days. I can tell you the one thing that kept me - and most of the kids in my school - in line, was knowing that the principle had a huge paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And the stories of that paddle rivaled some urban legends.

    Take a job at just about any school here in the United States, and you'll quickly see that mere words will never get the job done. There has to be fear of some form of consequence.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      I like several here only use spanking as a deterrent, but not as a regular form of punishment. I will use it as a form of communication to keep them from danger. I find that parents that use spankings as a regular form of punishment tend to do it when they are angry, and that can easily lead to abuse.

      However, I have many family members in the education field. And there's not a single one of them that doesn't tell stories of how disrespectful kids are at school these days. I can tell you the one thing that kept me - and most of the kids in my school - in line, was knowing that the principle had a huge paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And the stories of that paddle rivaled some urban legends.

      Take a job at just about any school here in the United States, and you'll quickly see that mere words will never get the job done. There has to be fear of some form of consequence.
      In my school it was the Gym teacher with a ping pong paddle
      Once a week in boys gym we had swimming and we had to skinny dip.
      He'd call a student up and say something like "remember on Tuesday you where acting up in English class? Well bend over."
      Only time the principal got involved was if a suspension or detention was called for.
      I went to a small public school, in fact it was the same building for grads k through 12. If there where 30 students in your grade it was a large class.
      I started Kindergarten in 1958 for a time reference. I remember acting up once in first grade. The teacher called my mother and my mother told her she had her permission to beat me if I got out of line.
      With those odds you don't act up in school. The up side was I got an education that rivaled and often surpassed what you would receive in any private school.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Gary -

        Your point about discipline in the school is important. I honestly have never seen children behave as badly as I have the past few years. When you have to have "monitors" to ride school buses to keep kids from fighting (or having sex) it's time to change something.

        My sister-in-law went back to college when her youngest child entered college - she had always wanted to teach. After one years in the public school system teaching middle school age children, she quit and went to a private school to teach.

        She had a 12 yr old pull a knife on her, had fights in the classroom - and when she tried to do something about the problem kids the parents had only excuses and the school policy was "just deal with it as best you can".

        This is a woman who raised three disciplined children - if she can't control a classroom, a 20 something fresh out of school can't.

        Spanking is ONE method of discipline - but many parents now seem to have no discipline at all. Children don't learn self control and good behavior toward others or responsibility unless they are taught.

        I think the "self confidence" bit with kids has gone overboard - a little bit of fear of authority is a good thing when children are growing up. There have to be consequences for actions.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Flyingpig7
    I agree with MikeAmbrosio, the definitions have to be drawn between abuse and discipline there is a difference.
    I was spanked as a child maybe 3 times I don't feel abused. Also I had my knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler learning to play the piano by my teacher then.
    I just laugh about that now, because I know the difference between a beating and discipline. It's all about balance, just like knowing the difference between right and wrong (a lot of adults appear to be confused about that as well).

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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by wholesale View Post

      I am sitting here reading some of your comments and I actually feel sick..Hitting, smacking, spanking whatever you want to call it is violence..If you hit another person it is assault..so what is the difference?
      My dad smacked me and I am now 39 years old and have no contact with him..Since having children myself it has made me wonder just why my dad did this to me...I adore my children and could never imagine ever in a million years wanting to touch them or make them cry because I hurt them with my hand or anything else..its old fashioned and its disgusting...its just an excuse to let out a bit of frustration on an innocent child...

      My daughter is an absolute angel and we have never laid a finger on her..there are much better ways to bring up children than to physically assault them..communication is the best for me..I never want my children to fear me like I feared my dad...

      Next time anyone goes to smack a child just think of what I have said and remember your baby when they were born...they are pure and innocent and should not see violence, however mild in the home..these are my opinions based on my childhood..

      Many Thanks

      James Wife Leigh
      The next time you tell your child 'no, stop drawing on the walls', and they look you dead in the eye and do it again, and you tell them no again, and they again look you straight in the eye and do it again, how many times will you stand for the child to completely ignore? You can only say no so many times before you just dont matter any more to the child because you're not going to do anything else to enforce your point.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by wholesale View Post

      I am sitting here reading some of your comments and I actually feel sick..Hitting, smacking, spanking whatever you want to call it is violence..If you hit another person it is assault..so what is the difference?
      My dad smacked me and I am now 39 years old and have no contact with him..Since having children myself it has made me wonder just why my dad did this to me...I adore my children and could never imagine ever in a million years wanting to touch them or make them cry because I hurt them with my hand or anything else..its old fashioned and its disgusting...its just an excuse to let out a bit of frustration on an innocent child...

      My daughter is an absolute angel and we have never laid a finger on her..there are much better ways to bring up children than to physically assault them..communication is the best for me..I never want my children to fear me like I feared my dad...

      Next time anyone goes to smack a child just think of what I have said and remember your baby when they were born...they are pure and innocent and should not see violence, however mild in the home..these are my opinions based on my childhood..

      Many Thanks

      James Wife Leigh
      I hate to be so harsh and blunt, but giving your child a little swat on the butt beats having to pick their brains up off of the road any day of the week. There's no violence involved in a little hand-butt communication, only tough love. (More tough on the parent, in my case).

      If you yourself were abused, then you may want to find another method. But for those that are disciplined enough to use it in love, and not out of anger, then it's a quick communication tool. And if used right usually only has to be used a few times.

      My children not only have respect for me and my wife, but they also show the utmost respect to their teachers and other adult authorities.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    James

    You obviously went through some bad times as a kid. Sounds more like abuse rather than a smack or spank...

    But what works for some children does not work for others.

    As I have stated, I don't believe in or use spanking as a form of punishment, but if a whack on the bottom keeps them from hurting themselves worse, it is worth it. And I hardly think this is something that would cause any kind of "damage" if the rest of the family life is well-balanced and has good communication.

    But, that's my view. You are entitled to raise your kids any way you see fit
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  • Profile picture of the author steve m
    I would never spank my daughter, NEVER, saying that she is only 6 months old. Maybe my veiws will change when she gets a little older. But probally not Joke lol

    I used to get the belt, but that was a few years ago now. I had the slipper a few times too.

    It is like the discusion on do you think that teachers can spank your child as they once were. I think not there is always the naughty step ha ha I watch nanny 911!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    There still seems a lot of confusion and mainly in the area of its OK i love them type replies,

    The very simple answer to that is that there is no such thing as putting tough love/ love or any other variable as justification to hitting a child in any form or manner.

    so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.

    and you could hit me all day, as i wont cry nor winch with pain or blink, you see i have had the crap belted out of me in the name of tough love so much i can not cry no more, i feel pain no more and you can not hurt me any more.

    And yes i am now had my own family with 2 beautiful girls both in their late teens early twenties, the only discipline they had was love ( not tough love ) they are both A grade students with distinctions and honor's and all of this rubbish related to justified hitting to learn is pure 100% garbage.

    Want to dish out some tough love, invite me around for a chat and see / feel the pain, and i promise you will never lay a finger on your child again. If you do then you can hit me for as long as it takes to clear your system so you do not hurt another child
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      There still seems a lot of confusion and mainly in the area of its OK i love them type replies,

      The very simple answer to that is that there is no such thing as putting tough love/ love or any other variable as justification to hitting a child in any form or manner.

      so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.

      and you could hit me all day, as i wont cry nor winch with pain or blink, you see i have had the crap belted out of me in the name of tough love so much i can not cry no more, i feel pain no more and you can not hurt me any more.

      And yes i am now had my own family with 2 beautiful girls both in their late teens early twenties, the only discipline they had was love ( not tough love ) they are both A grade students with distinctions and honor's and all of this rubbish related to justified hitting to learn is pure 100% garbage.

      Want to dish out some tough love, invite me around for a chat and see / feel the pain, and i promise you will never lay a finger on your child again. If you do then you can hit me for as long as it takes to clear your system so you do not hurt another child
      Again - you're probably not getting it, and may never get it, because you were abused. And that's a shame. But there IS such a thing as a little swat on the butt out of pure love. Just because you've never been a part of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I myself received little swats on the behind from my parents, and I love them to death.

      ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.
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      • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        Again - you're probably not getting it, and may never get it, because you were abused. And that's a shame. But there IS such a thing as a little swat on the butt out of pure love. Just because you've never been a part of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I myself received little swats on the behind from my parents, and I love them to death.

        ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.
        Gary i respect your view, and it is the mentality that exists that there is such a thing as tough love or that little tap is ok thinking that is were we differ, how do i know i raised 2 chilren with never laying a hand on them once and do i have tough dicipline yes you bet i do.

        i can not change the world not will i try but do not justify hurting children under any manner, as for not getting it, what part do i not get " o its ok we love them" yes i heard that while having the crap beat of me, that worked

        any person who can not control an enviroment and feels the only resort is smacking is the person who needs some guidance not the child. period

        ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.
        please do not confuse what i said, why would i stop that
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

          Gary i respect your view, and it is the mentality that exists that there is such a thing as tough love or that little tap is ok thinking that is were we differ, how do i know i raised 2 chilren with never laying a hand on them once and do i have tough dicipline yes you bet i do.

          i can not change the world not will i try but do not justify hurting children under any manner, as for not getting it, what part do i not get " o its ok we love them" yes i heard that while having the crap beat of me, that worked

          any person who can not control an enviroment and feels the only resort is smacking is the person who needs some guidance not the child. period

          please do not confuse what i said, why would i stop that
          I think what is missing is what the spanking actually entails.
          Like I said earlier I spanked my youngest, but never in anger and never hard enough to hurt her in any way.
          It was a tool used to get her attention.
          When it was needed, she would be so focused on what she was doing that a bomb going off next to her wouldn't distract her, a couple of light taps on the butt and sharply saying her name would.
          As far as hitting a child to hurt or punish them, I was as a child but choose not to go that route with my kids. As they told me later in life the punishment for them was listening to me explain what they did wrong, which was my plan all along
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          • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            but choose not to go that route with my kids. As they told me later in life the punishment for them was listening to me explain what they did wrong, which was my plan all along
            Thats some good news, please do not read me wrong, we are here to build a on line business and this is a off topic section that really is just some fun.

            I really hope those parents i an environment think before they even tap the children because in many ways by taking this measure they are saying i have lost some sort of control and to restore the status quo where i am in control i will resort to "tough love".

            And it is sad that people think that the only way to take command of the environment to forcibly make that happen, and in many cases / all cases i have seen it has been badged as "we love them or tough love or any other variant of that"

            When really the person simply does not know or have an alternate way to deal with the situation.

            For example i am teaching my youngest daughter to drive now, the roads are dangerous, so lets say she stops to late at the stop sign and goes over a little, ? do i reach over and smack her behind the ears because " i lover her and want to teach her right from wrong ?

            No that would be wrong, and what about if you are a boss who has a new young employee , say learning to operate a press, do you walk up and smack them in front of all and sundry because they pressed the wrong button ?

            No we do not do these things, nor should we, but then at what age do we say well we will stop hitting them in the name of love ?

            Surly its OK when they are little i am big and they can not fight back or talk back and i really do love them.

            ? well the truth is a child looks up to the parents for all inspiration and guidance, love nurture and all of those qualities, you start smacking them and you only install fear and apply intimidation.

            again your an adult and you want to tell me that hitting a small and defenseless child is your only resort and then you wish to justify that weakness with the "i love them words"

            I have not met one abused child who has not heard or had the words uttered " but we done it because we loved them"

            If as adults you truly love your children then applying fear and intimidation , abuse is not the answer nor will it ever be, and if by some means your application of the words " we love them " justifies your actions then i hope as ThomM has written above, change you and your kids say to you as toms kids have then you can stand proud. well done and thank you for your story Tom.

            for me its back to this Internet thingy that we are all here for, and picking up the occasional broken child in my spare time and where i can offering them a little ray of hope, i can not help them all, but if i can help one then that is a start and i hope the next child in your care feels safe and loved and not frightened in the name of love.
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

              Thats some good news, please do not read me wrong, we are here to build a on line business and this is a off topic section that really is just some fun.

              I really hope those parents i an environment think before they even tap the children because in many ways by taking this measure they are saying i have lost some sort of control and to restore the status quo where i am in control i will resort to "tough love".

              And it is sad that people think that the only way to take command of the environment to forcibly make that happen, and in many cases / all cases i have seen it has been badged as "we love them or tough love or any other variant of that"

              When really the person simply does not know or have an alternate way to deal with the situation.

              For example i am teaching my youngest daughter to drive now, the roads are dangerous, so lets say she stops to late at the stop sign and goes over a little, ? do i reach over and smack her behind the ears because " i lover her and want to teach her right from wrong ?

              No that would be wrong, and what about if you are a boss who has a new young employee , say learning to operate a press, do you walk up and smack them in front of all and sundry because they pressed the wrong button ?

              No we do not do these things, nor should we, but then at what age do we say well we will stop hitting them in the name of love ?

              Surly its OK when they are little i am big and they can not fight back or talk back and i really do love them.

              ? well the truth is a child looks up to the parents for all inspiration and guidance, love nurture and all of those qualities, you start smacking them and you only install fear and apply intimidation.

              again your an adult and you want to tell me that hitting a small and defenseless child is your only resort and then you wish to justify that weakness with the "i love them words"

              I have not met one abused child who has not heard or had the words uttered " but we done it because we loved them"

              If as adults you truly love your children then applying fear and intimidation , abuse is not the answer nor will it ever be, and if by some means your application of the words " we love them " justifies your actions then i hope as ThomM has written above, change you and your kids say to you as toms kids have then you can stand proud. well done and thank you for your story Tom.

              for me its back to this Internet thingy that we are all here for, and picking up the occasional broken child in my spare time and where i can offering them a little ray of hope, i can not help them all, but if i can help one then that is a start and i hope the next child in your care feels safe and loved and not frightened in the name of love.
              I hate to say it, but you're way off. There are many ways to discipline a child without becoming abusive, and that includes a little swat to the hind quarters once in a while. And by the way, there are people out there that never lay a hand on their children that are way more abusive just with their words.

              I can understand your thinking though, because you were abused. You have no way of looking at this from a rational point of view. My parents spanked me a few times while I was growing up, and not once did I feel abused or that my parents hated me. In fact quite the opposite. I respected and loved them for setting boundaries for me and making me to feel safe.

              I have one son that is 15 and I've never had to spank him. He's very respectful, but he's also tender hearted. There's no need to spank him, because all you have to do is change your tone with him, and then he knows he's in the wrong and changes his actions almost immediately.

              However I have another son that is 3 almost 4 years old. He thinks he's invincible and does not take no for an answer. If he wants to stick a fork or his finger in the light socket, he'll be very persistent, until you either give him a little swat, or he gets his fork or finger in the socket. I've put him in time out, taken away toys, put him in his room, but if he wants to get his way, he'll persist through all of that. So it's either a little swat, or let him have at the light socket. I have no problem w/ a little swat, and neither does he. He still thinks I'm his biggest hero, and he's one of mine.
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  • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
    People seem to feel there is some magical formula of doing this and that will equal a good child or something. Children are all different, learn different ways, and become different things. I'm thankful my mom and dad spanked ME when I was out of line and hard-headed. I am also thankful they didn't do it out of anger, but instead were calm and there to discipline me, not take there aggression or lack of patience out on me. There will be a time where it will be necessary for me to communicate a message through the form of minor physical punishment to express that I am disappointed by my child's actions.

    I don't feel that I would be the least bit successful at most of what I do without my parents instilling the ideals that the world does not actually revolve around me, and that I am not invincible. Maybe that's just me though.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Well gary lets just say we have differing views and leave it at that, you say that smacking a child in your care is ok, I say say its not.

    You say i am way off and there are many ways to dicipline a child. yes i rasied two girls without hitting them, they are great well adjusted young adults, what did you want to teach me?

    for me i will not take this further with you as it is a pointless venture, I wish you well.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      Well gary lets just say we have differing views and leave it at that, you say that smacking a child in your care is ok, I say say its not.

      You say i am way off and there are many ways to dicipline a child. yes i rasied two girls without hitting them, they are great well adjusted young adults, what did you want to teach me?

      for me i will not take this further with you as it is a pointless venture, I wish you well.

      Yes we probably will have differing points of view - especially when you don't bother to read what I write. Never did I say it's ok to "smack" a child. There's a big difference between a swat on the rear and a smack.
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  • Profile picture of the author KPYang
    It's illegal to smack'em on the head with an object or slap them silly but if you just spank them with your palms open, it's should be fine. I believe some children needs spanking, believe or not, sometimes they stop doing what their not suppose to do after getting spanked.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Do they have to be your own kids? Just kidding. I don't know why but it seems a lot of kids these days have no respect for anyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    As a kid my mum only spanked me once - I was messing about with my little brother and pushed him off. Unfortunately he fell down the stairs and cracked his head open! But appart from that my mum used the stern talking to and loss of pocket money etc as her 'stick'. I can remember acting up in a department store and getting dragged out of it and told in no uncertain terms my behaviour wasn't acceptable. We went straight home and I got sent to bed (no tv or computers in bedroom in those days). I was given an hour to reflect on my behaviour. Whoops!
    So I'm not one for smacking kids but at the same time it annoys me how some parents let their kids run riot when out. Saw a 4/5 year old swining on a dummy in a shop window today without the parents caring. I thought any minute that'll fall on top of the kid and the parents will be playing war with the shop!

    Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    The question isn't whether or not you should, it's how.

    What is the reason for a spanking? It is not just discipline it is also correction. You are trying to correct a behavior and letting them know that their is a consequence for their actions. That will be true in their life forever. You break the law you pay a price.

    The reason spankings are not effective is when they are done wrong and just end up raising angry kids.

    Most people who are against spanking had a bad experience with it as a child and so they disagree with it now.

    Many people feel they were abused because "spanking" also is used to describe being smacked on the back of the head, being slapped or having their hair grabbed to yell at them. That is not spanking. That is an example of how to raise a rebellious resentful kid.

    There are some very important guidelines to spanking that make it successful.

    - Never use your hand. Kids should understand that your hand is not for discipline but a paddle is.

    - Never do it in anger. The image they will have is you "beating" them in anger. It is no longer about correction or discipline.

    - Always talk with them first. Explain what they did wrong, why it's wrong and why it has to be corrected.

    - Always hug them after. They need to know they are still loved. That you are not disowning them. Just walking away lets them sit their and grow resentful.

    - Never do it in public or in front of a sibling. This embarrasses them and that is not what you are trying to do.

    - Never smack them or grab hair etc... That is abusive and creates resentment. It is always done out of anger as well.

    - Be consistent! There have to be rules laid out and those rules need to be enforced. When you spank them sometimes for something and sometimes they get away with it, they will always push the line.

    - It needs to be instant. Stop counting to 3! That basically tells them they have 2 seconds to get away with something before you will do anything about it. Watch the next time you do it. They will wait till the "th" in "three" starts to roll off your tongue before stopping. I know a parent who's 4 year old was hit by a car because whenever she said stop she would have to count to 3 first before he would listen. That boy ran into the street before she could count.


    Disciplining your kids needs to be about loving them and wanting them to grow up right. Not about anger. It is hard work and you must be consistent.

    It's a lot easier to just spank and run out of anger and that will fail everytime. It takes time to calm down and take them to a room and talk with them and hold them after. It's not the easy way but in the long run it is. You can't be lazy with this. You are responsible for how they grow up.

    If done right you won't need to spank much as they get older.

    But having said all that their is a lot more involved in raising a child. You can do all that right and mess up a whole lot more.

    The most important thing is to realize that you are responsible for a life!

    Kids aren't just something you drag along through life. It is a full time job and takes a lot of hard work to be a good parent. But in the end they will love you for it!


    Hope that helps, it's a topic I care a lot about as you can see. I was fortunate to know some really good parents before having kids of my own! ;-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        So you are seriously saying that's it's okay
        as long as you don't use a hand - just use
        a paddle or a stick instead? :confused:
        no, he's saying that you should use a paddle so that kids know when its spanking time. Using a paddle or something like that sets a boundary. they know when the paddle comes out, playtime is over.

        I dont think there is really a steadfast rule on this. I dont have a problem with spanking a child as I said before, but not all children need to be spanked. By the same token, not all children DONT need to have that bottom warmed up from time to time. If you have kids that don't need a swat to get their attention, good for you, but don't look down your nose at the parent that is spanking their child because you dont know what that child is like the rest of the time you are not around.

        I see a lot of parents who talk about how you shouldnt spank your children, and those are the parents that are in the malls with their teenagers screaming at them, calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers."

    The thing is, who created and marketed $100 sneakers in the first place? It wasn't a kid.
    When I was a kid you could get 10 pairs of sneakers for $100 and they would probably last longer than anything on the market today.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      "calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers."

      The thing is, who created and marketed $100 sneakers in the first place? It wasn't a kid.
      When I was a kid you could get 10 pairs of sneakers for $100 and they would probably last longer than anything on the market today.
      that has nothing to do with the children speaking to their parents that way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
          Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

          Let me kindly put it another way
          for you...

          You should lie down on your side
          Michael naked.

          Get your partner to draw a couple
          of eye's on the top cheek of your
          backside with a large black marker
          pen, sketch on a nose, draw some
          lips around the crack of your bottom
          and get that person to massage it.

          Then it really would look like you
          were talking out of your ass.

          Oh wait, there's no difference. :rolleyes:
          :p

          well that is the point of having a paddle or something like that and using only that for spankings.

          Its no different than using a rolled up newspaper on your dog. After a while, the spanking is not even necessary because the pavlovian response when just seeing the 'tool' will be enough to get the desired action.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
              Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

              To me it just sounds like you get a
              kick out of hitting anything, as long
              as it's smaller or weaker than yourself. :rolleyes:
              Now now sunshine...no need trying to pick a fight because you dont understand what is being said.
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          • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
            Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

            :p
            well that is the point of having a paddle or something like that and using only that for spankings.
            Its no different than using a rolled up newspaper on your dog. After a while, the spanking is not even necessary because the pavlovian response when just seeing the 'tool' will be enough to get the desired action.
            You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

            Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

            lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

            she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

            It took several days before she could walk again,

            so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

            Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

            Yes we probably will have differing points of view - especially when you don't bother to read what I write. Never did I say it's OK to "smack" a child. There's a big difference between a swat on the rear and a smack.
            so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

            So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

            lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

            and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

            ? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

            as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

            Pete
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            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
              Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

              You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

              Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

              lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

              she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

              It took several days before she could walk again,

              so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

              Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

              so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

              So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

              lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

              and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

              ? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

              as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

              Pete
              Pete just b/c your parents were monster does not make other parents monster when they lovingly discipline their children. Try to keep that in mind when you start ranting. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. Personally with our 4 younger kids we have never had to spank them even once. They are happy and very well adjusted kids too. But I would never berate someone for lovingly spanking their children.
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              • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                Pete just b/c your parents were monster does not make other parents monster when they lovingly discipline their children. Try to keep that in mind when you start ranting. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. Personally with our 4 younger kids we have never had to spank them even once. They are happy and very well adjusted kids too. But I would never berate someone for lovingly spanking their children.
                I understand that, but there simply no connection between hitting a child and justifying that, so much so the law clearly staes that now in most parts. that tazer idea could catch on though

                what i would like to do is get my focus back onto making money online, that works for me in this forum
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
              Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

              You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

              Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

              lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

              she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

              It took several days before she could walk again,

              so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

              Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

              so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

              So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

              lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

              and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

              ? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

              as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

              Pete
              Your parents' views on discipline and how to administer it are not every parents' views on discipline and how to administer it. Your dogs and how you train them are not everyone's dogs and how they train them.

              There is no way you can say that without a doubt not spanking works in every situation with every child. I have already stated that every child does not need spanking, but some do.

              Not having discipline or the ability to leaves a society with children that are not worried about consequences. And yes, discipline doesnt always mean physical negative reinforcement, but sometimes it does.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                How about in front of the child, the adult
                puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
                so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
                taking your hand off with a bloody great,
                'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
                your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
                when you touch it?
                Now the child on seeing that is going to
                show towards you most likely a great
                deal of natural empathy and sympathy
                and no doubt will give you a great big
                hug to make you feel better.
                This post is only in response to the quote but honestly, it made me laugh. The thing that you are overlooking is that children are not born with empathy - it is not natural. Empathy is learned. A three year old has rarely learned empathy therefore that would be unlikely to work with most children. I have one daughter, my middle child, that would actually be MORE likely to touch the stove if I had tried that. She was the "contrary" one. If I said it was raining out, she would have to go outside and get wet to believe me...lol. And that is not a joke.

                Every child is different so it takes different things for different kids. With the above-mentioned daughter, a swat didn't make a difference either so I quickly gave it up. Some kids simply have to learn things the hard way. This is a child who I swatted and she laughed and looked at me dead in the eye and said "that didn't hurt". Which, of course, it didn't as that wasn't the intention.

                Of course, she is the one who was swatted on more than one occasion for playing with the electrical plugs. She was very dextrous as a toddler and could get the safety covers off in a blink. Swatting didn't phase her one bit but the day she stuck a key in the plug - that was the last time she played with the plugs.

                My oldest, on the other hand, was much more sensitive to disapproval. The evil eye was often enough to stop her in her tracks. I see a swat on the bum as one tool in a parent's arsenal - not one to be used constantly and for everything. But parents have to have some control over their children and I think the horrible generation we're seeing now is from taking away spanking and just about any other form of discipline.

                Children should have some fear of their parents. We're not their friends or their babysitters. Without a healthy dose of fear of punishment, a child runs wild. Not overwhelming fear, obviously, but the old fashioned, "oh, crap, my parents are going to kill me for this" fear - because they know they will be getting disciplined. If a swat on the hind end when they're three instills that respect and fear, then by God, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  How about in front of the child, the adult
                  puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
                  so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
                  taking your hand off with a bloody great,
                  'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
                  your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
                  when you touch it?
                  My half brother was 30 years older then me and had a daughter 2 years older then me so I spent some time at his place.
                  One day his wife was cooking and I kept touching things on the stove.
                  After repeatedly warning me the stove was hot she finally took my hand and held it over a lit burner long enough for me to get the idea.
                  Not saying what she did was right or wrong, but I am saying I never messed around with the stove again.
                  BTW I also spent many years as a professional chef so there wasn't any trauma from that, just the memory
                  IF she had done what you suggest I would have laughed and kept on playing with the stove.
                  On the other hand that would of worked with any of my daughters (maybe girls really are smarter:rolleyes.
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              • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                Your parents' views on discipline and how to administer it are not every parents' views on discipline and how to administer it. Your dogs and how you train them are not everyone's dogs and how they train them.

                There is no way you can say that without a doubt not spanking works in every situation with every child. I have already stated that every child does not need spanking, but some do.

                Not having discipline or the ability to leaves a society with children that are not worried about consequences. And yes, discipline doesnt always mean physical negative reinforcement, but sometimes it does.
                Thank you for your feedback and I respect your view point.

                Currently i am organising buying some toys here for Christmas presents for kids / families that are down on their luck this year that will be part of a car club Santa run where the toys will be given to a local charity organisation for distribution on Christmas day.

                I tend to buy more than i should trying to help that extra little tiger or angel, but as i have seen so many caring parents here, can i ask that each person looks in their own community, is there one charity or child you can help bring a smile to this Christmas ? if so please help where you can

                As worriers we will not change the world but each one of us can make a small change and united as a group it would be nice to say hey the warrior team work hard all year then, put aside any differences at this one special times to make this special time magic for the children. and if you can bring one more smile its like adding another ray of sunshine.

                Pete
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

        that has nothing to do with the children speaking to their parents that way.
        Oh, I disagree, which is why I commented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jhf14
    i say yes... just gotta do it once or so.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Well now there's no use getting huffy with those who have a different viewpoint

    At the end of the day, some kids don't need to be spanked, some do, and then there are some parents who need to be spanked.

    Everyone and every situation is different. If spanking ain't your thing, awesome. I personally don't see a swat on the bottom in the name of protecting a child as an act of violence.

    On the other hand, I have seen parents who get on a soapbox about "spanking being violent" and would NEVER do that, yet proceed to berate their children with words...

    "Oh, you're so stupid!"

    "What's the matter with you? Don't you have a brain?"

    "Why can't you be more like your brother - he's an angel"

    You get the idea. To me, that has a much deeper, devastating and long-lasting effect than a hand to the bottom.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        The thread title though is about spanking
        kids, that is hitting them.

        What you describe above is emotional
        abuse, which is equally wrong.

        What's wrong with just praising your kids,
        giving them love, encouraging them, listening
        to them, being respectful of the fact that
        they have feelings just like everyone else?

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        Mark,

        All due respect, who says that those who may spank DON'T praise their kids? Why must this be a "one way or the other" subject?

        Once again, in the terms I refer to (as others in this thread) spanking is not used as a disciplinary measure. If some can classify ALL spanking as violent and abusive, then it's just as relevant to bring in the emotional abuse aspect.

        If you truly believe that a thump on the behind in order to keep your child from, say, climbing out a window on to a rooftop, or grabbing a boiling pot off a stove top, is nothing more than a violent act that WILL hurt a child, well, then I suppose that's your right.

        I, however, disagree.

        As a last resort, if it keeps my child from doing major damage to himself, so be it. A thump on the bottom it is.

        For the record, I have never had to spank my 6 year old. He's not all that curious about things like pots on a stove, etc. Of my 4 kids, I only had to do this once, when my now 21 year old was young (I mentioned this in another post as to why). If you want to consider me a violent or abusive person because of this, well there's not a whole lot I can do...
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

            Please read all of my comments as I see
            no point in covering old ground again.

            Thanks.


            Mark Andrews...
            I did read all of your comments

            That's why I responded.

            Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

                Then your reading comprehension
                is somewhat lacking.
                Either that or your ability to get a point across.

                Either way, this conversation has now become a waste of my time.

                Ciao.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                    Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

                    It's a waste of time simply because
                    you believe the point being conveyed
                    by an opposing viewpoint is wrong,
                    which tells me and a few others too
                    that your're quite frankly just plain pig
                    headed with no room for compromise.

                    Ain't that the truth.


                    Mark Andrews...

                    And here I thought you were beneath name calling and had character.

                    Seems I misjudged you.

                    For the record, I never said your viewpoint was wrong. Only gave mine as opposing. I stated that you have your opinion and I have mine.

                    Seems to me pig-headedness and poor reading comprehension can run in both directions.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                        Mark,

                        Your idea below is a great one, no doubt.

                        I have done that with my oldest too - specifically with the stove. In fact, I have probably hurt myself more in the past years using myself as an example

                        But he was our rambunctious one who just HAD to find out for himself time and again. Sometimes kids are just like that.

                        The one time I swatted him for breaking free of my hand and running in the parking lot was far from his first attempt - I guess I should have specified that

                        But after that swat, it was the LAST time he did that.

                        And also, all I had to do after that was to remind him of that swat and he pretty much stopped doing these potentially self-damaging things after one warning.

                        In THIS case I truly believe that one swat saved him much more pain over the years.

                        I guess maybe I can be a bit over-sensitive when people lump a swat (like in the case I have used it) as nothing short of abusive when I know on every level that there's no abuse in my heart - ever.

                        My responses, so you know, are never about me proving I am right and someone else is wrong. It's simply me expressing my thoughts. Agree, don't, it matters not to me.

                        So I propose we agree we have different viewpoints and move on...

                        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

                        This is very true, I can't argue with
                        you on that one, what can i say?

                        Look, top of page 2 - I made a remark,
                        again I've been thinking about this, what
                        might be the best course of action given
                        a scenario such as the hot stove situation.

                        Wouldn't it be a better course of action,
                        rather than 'swatting' a child, giving them
                        pain, to play to their emotional feelings and
                        love shown naturally towards us as parents
                        instead to prove our point, rather than
                        causing the child pain, to tell them, 'No'!

                        How about in front of the child, the adult
                        puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
                        so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
                        taking your hand off with a bloody great,
                        'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
                        your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
                        when you touch it?

                        Show the child your own pain, your own
                        tears, tell them how much that really hurt
                        you and say to them, 'Look i only did that
                        to show you what happens if you were to
                        put your hand on a hot surface, see my
                        hand, see how it's blistered and how much
                        that hurt me, I only showed you that
                        because that's how much I love you so
                        much. I just wouldn't want to see that
                        happen to you'.

                        Now the child on seeing that is going to
                        show towards you most likely a great
                        deal of natural empathy and sympathy
                        and no doubt will give you a great big
                        hug to make you feel better. You could
                        even ask them to help by putting a
                        plaster on your blister.

                        They might not be able to put it into so
                        many words, but chances are they'll
                        understand the point that you tried to
                        make for their own benefit and they
                        won't do it again after seeing the
                        obvious pain that it caused you their
                        beloved mommy or daddy.

                        Wouldn't that be a better course of
                        action rather than just swatting the
                        child one to try and teach them that
                        lesson?

                        Okay, so you end up with a sore finger
                        for hand for a day or two, pffffft so
                        what? Better that and the child learning
                        the lesson well directly from you rather
                        than a punishment regime which the
                        child may or may not fully understand.

                        What say you, oh reasonable on legs
                        wise one?

                        Good idea or not, if not, why not?
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        The thread title though is about spanking
        kids, that is hitting them.

        What you describe above is emotional
        abuse, which is equally wrong.

        What's wrong with just praising your kids,
        giving them love, encouraging them, listening
        to them, being respectful of the fact that
        they have feelings just like everyone else?

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        spanking is hitting, but its not hitting just for hitting's sake, it is for discipline which is vastly different because of the motivations.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Spanking your child is not illegal. At least not in any state near me. Abuse is illegal, naturally. There is a difference to any reasonable person.

          Some of the people here that are so very dead set against the idea also talk about abuse they received as a child. Those horrible experiences have colored your outlook and that's understandable. That does not invalidate any other person's point of view, however.

          I was one that went through every form of abuse imaginable as a child. I still don't have a problem with giving my children a swat on the butt when necessary. Not as a standard form of discipline but for the rare occasion when it's the only thing that will work.

          I don't care who you are - you cannot reason with a toddler. They don't have that ability yet. When they pull away from you in a parking lot and dart out in front of a car, a swat on their rumps gets their attention in a hurry.

          What some people don't seem to realize is that spanking is not about giving pain to the child. Frankly, if you're causing pain, you've gone too far. It's about getting their attention and letting them realize immediately that what they did was not acceptable.

          Spanking is only effective before the child has that reasoning ability. Once they've hit school age, there are far too many alternatives to have spanking remain useful or effective.

          Two responses to posts above:
          The next time you tell your child 'no, stop drawing on the walls', and they look you dead in the eye and do it again, and you tell them no again, and they again look you straight in the eye and do it again, how many times will you stand for the child to completely ignore? You can only say no so many times before you just dont matter any more to the child because you're not going to do anything else to enforce your point.
          Before spanking, wouldn't it be far more effective and to the point to TAKE AWAY THE CRAYONS? LOL.
          so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.
          I am not normally a very angry person, but if anyone tried to interfere with how I parent/discipline my child, I'd be furious. It's none of your business unless the child is being injured. Do you also go interfere because you don't like the way someone is talking to their child? I love it when people try to tell other people how to raise their children. There is no one way that works for everyone.

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          • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            . It's none of your business unless the child is being injured. Do you also go interfere because you don't like the way someone is talking to their child? I love it when people try to tell other people how to raise their children. There is no one way that works for everyone.
            Tina
            Hello Tina, you are correct i would only defend a child if it was being injured and you are also correct that the worst thing another person can do is tell others how to care for their children, and nor would i attempt to do that.

            I can express my thoughts in an open and rational way as others do, and i will never buy that hitting a child in any form is in love or learning. they are my views only

            So it seems we are on the same page, I also understand there are parts of the world that still allow children to be hit, spanked or what ever it is called.

            I will not fathom any person who justifies hitting small and defenseless children in the name of love or teaching, at any level and i feel sad for any person who feels the only training or teaching method is to hit a child.

            as for being tough yes i am, the words here do not phase me, as i grew up with what is said here in threat ten times worse than this, and in many ways the tough stance here is making me cry a little now, it brings back strong memories.

            But so i can explain this, words or tough words here is what i am used to, followed by beatings so sever that left you broken boned blue ad red with blood, the only way i learned to survive and stay alive was to learn to block out pain, and to this day i no longer feel pain, i can not cry on the outside nor do i have emotion.

            For the tough people i would scare the **** out of you if you wanted to hit me or threaten me, as i would just quietly stand and look you in the eye silent every time you knocked me down.

            if i could not stand i would support my self as best i could, you would not be so tough, so please people i respect you view but hard balling me is your last thing that really works for me, the best have tried and i have been beaten to pulp for years, you cant hurt me any more.

            I pray for you and your kids that you never hit them again, it is not needed, and there is no level of we love them if you hit children please do not call it love.

            with that i will leave you to your own devices and wish you a merry festive season, for me i am off to earn a few bucks and just maybe i will buy one more little boy or girl a present this year and make one more child happy in this crazy world.

            I have no further interest in this thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            Spanking your child is not illegal. At least not in any state near me. Abuse is illegal, naturally. There is a difference to any reasonable person.

            Some of the people here that are so very dead set against the idea also talk about abuse they received as a child. Those horrible experiences have colored your outlook and that's understandable. That does not invalidate any other person's point of view, however.

            I was one that went through every form of abuse imaginable as a child. I still don't have a problem with giving my children a swat on the butt when necessary. Not as a standard form of discipline but for the rare occasion when it's the only thing that will work.

            I don't care who you are - you cannot reason with a toddler. They don't have that ability yet. When they pull away from you in a parking lot and dart out in front of a car, a swat on their rumps gets their attention in a hurry.

            What some people don't seem to realize is that spanking is not about giving pain to the child. Frankly, if you're causing pain, you've gone too far. It's about getting their attention and letting them realize immediately that what they did was not acceptable.

            Spanking is only effective before the child has that reasoning ability. Once they've hit school age, there are far too many alternatives to have spanking remain useful or effective.

            Two responses to posts above:
            Before spanking, wouldn't it be far more effective and to the point to TAKE AWAY THE CRAYONS? LOL.
            I am not normally a very angry person, but if anyone tried to interfere with how I parent/discipline my child, I'd be furious. It's none of your business unless the child is being injured. Do you also go interfere because you don't like the way someone is talking to their child? I love it when people try to tell other people how to raise their children. There is no one way that works for everyone.

            Tina
            well said, Tina! There is indeed a difference between a swat on the bum of a tantrum-pulling toddler, and abuse!

            I'm sorry Mark, Pete, and others who have been abused. I was another abused child: physically, emotionally, verbally. My mother was an alcoholic. At sixteen I ended up in a foster home because the judge would not send me home for my own safety. Enough said.

            However, instead of growing up bitter and inflexible, I decided to forgive my parents. Why forgive them when they beat me, berated me, hurt me terribly? Why would anyone forgive that?

            The answer is that they are not perfect. Even they did the best that they could do. They are both dead now, and I miss them terribly.

            I think as former abused kids, there comes a point in your life when you need to stop blaming your problems and your unhappiness on your parents. At some point you have to stop being the victim. And the only way to do that is by forgiving all those who hurt you, and forgiving yourself for how you've let that bitterness of your past mar your own real happiness.

            Now I am a mother to one son who is about to turn 18. I swatted his bum when he was a toddler a couple of times. I did not hurt him. Usually I would just bring out the wooden spoon and hit the table with it to get his attention. Or I used "the look". If I was overwhelmed while he was having a tantrum, I would go in my bedroom for a few minutes, and count to ten. But it was really hard to reason with my son when he was in the "terrible twos" stage.

            Still, I feel I broke the cycle of abuse with my son. He and I have a great relationship. But I'm not perfect nor is he.

            No one is ever going to be a perfect parent. You do your best. And that's all you can do.
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            • Profile picture of the author Lincoln Ryan
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                Originally Posted by Lincoln Ryan View Post

                I have an 18 month old and I DO spank him. But I make sure that I do it a certain way.
                • I never spank them when I'm angry or visibly frustrated.
                • I don't spank them for doing something "wrong", I spank them when they disobey.
                • I tell them the reason that I'm spanking them, because they disobeyed, and that I still love them.
                • I also spank immediately when they are doing something that is putting them in danger.
                Personally, I think like TORTURE, it's all about intent. 2 parents can spank their kids and it can come across in different ways. Everyone has seen parents just flip out on their kids and treat them like trash. That's abusive. But a parent that is controlled in their behavior and explains the reasoning to the child can effectively use spanking.

                And the reason I brought torture up is because the same could be said about that. Actually, legally it HAS been said. And that is a specific act is not torture, it's about the intent of the person doing it. Lawyers argued this and used the example of getting waterboarded in training vs. when you're a prisoner. A lot of serviceman get waterboarded in training, does that mean they were tortured?
                But let me point out things like 'flipping out and treating like trash' are subjective. What you think is bad treatment isnt necessarily what another parent thinks is bad treatment.

                I can remember when i was a child and getting a spanking it was a no holds barred kind of deal. I was never punched, kicked or anything like that, but my butt might get warmed up with switch, hand, paddle, belt, hairbrush, shoe, or a randome piece of hotwheel track. And i STILL dont think that it was anything all that outrageous. But today a light swat with the hand could lead to police being called for child endangerment.

                And to me...thats why back in my day, you didnt have parents talking back to their parents, disrespecting them in public or private or any other stuff like we have today. Parents get what they ask for. If you let your child walk all over you when they are younger,do you really think thats going to change as they get older?
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  As far as hitting a child to hurt or punish them, I was as a child but choose not to go that route with my kids. As they told me later in life the punishment for them was listening to me explain what they did wrong, which was my plan all along
                  When I was too young to reason with, my folks set boundaries. If I willfully crossed those boundaries, I was punished. Most of the time it was an open palm on the bottom a few times, where the sound was much worse than the impact. For serious infractions, like willful repeat offenses, my dad had this belt about a half inch wide. The sucker, when doubled over, made a popping sound like a firecracker and stung like the dickens. Stung, not hurt.

                  The procedure was always the same. First, my brother and/or I was told what the consequences of acting out would be. If we chose to act out anyway, we knew what was promised.

                  We were never spanked in anger. We were reminded of the sequence of events that led up to the spanking, took our licks, and then came the worst part - The Lecture. We would stand in front of my father while he both lectured us on why the act we committed warranted punishment along with reassurance that the act was being punished, not the child. We were always reassured that our parents loved us, and we believed them.

                  The spankings stung. They got our attention. But the real punishment was The Lecture.

                  I do remember getting slapped across the face a couple of times. Both came when I let my Irish temper take over and got incoherent and hysterical - your basic tantrum. I think I was about 7 or 8 at the time. Both times, the slap interrupted the tantrum and made me rational enough to reason with again. There again, it was about the interrupt, not the physical pain. My face stung for a little bit, and was red for a little while, but no damage was done.

                  Originally Posted by KrazyG View Post

                  I do not like to spank my kid in the future. If it is for discipline, there's an alternative way to do that. I don't want my kids to grow and hate me because of spanking them.

                  I like a relationship where they respect me, they're open, share stories, laugh, drink and just love each other.
                  My folks spanked me when I earned it, and I did respect them, was open, shared stories, had fun, etc. The two had nothing to do with each other.

                  Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

                  Why do ppl without kids even care about parents views on spanking? Seems like this was created for controversy.
                  Because people without kids still have to share the planet with those parents and their offspring.

                  I've shared charter boats with well-raised kids where I had no concept whether they were spanked or not, but they were a joy to be around. I've shared space with little monsters that should have been caged and sold to the circus.

                  When my wife and I go to the grocery store, I often elect to wait for her in the car. It's better for both my waistline and our food budget. It also allows me the chance to observe a lot of different people.

                  Two such incidents come to mind.

                  In the first, there was a youngish Latina mother with kids probably in the 3-5 range. I say Latina because the whole incident took place in Spanish. The youngest was obviously begging for something, and the mother told the child to be quiet. Just as they were getting to the door, the child decided to try again. That young mother gave that child a glare that made me want to keep my mouth shut. The kid calmed down and shut up, and they went into the store. When they came back out, the kid was still minding his manners.

                  In the second, the kid was a bit older. Probably 8-10 if I had to guess. She started in on her mother, telling the mother what she was going to buy the kid. From what I heard, the mother's name was "Bitch"... When the mother attempted to assert herself, the kid reared up and said, loud enough for anyone to hear, "You want me to call Child Services again, bitch? Is that what you want?" The mother crumbled. I truly felt sorry for both of them.

                  Had I tried to pull a stunt like that, I had have had my face smacked and a phone handed to me to make the call...
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    We never spank our kids and they are very well behaved kids. Though we do use tasers on them quite often. =)
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  • Profile picture of the author KrazyG
    I do not like to spank my kid in the future. If it is for discipline, there's an alternative way to do that. I don't want my kids to grow and hate me because of spanking them.

    I like a relationship where they respect me, they're open, share stories, laugh, drink and just love each other.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    ...no a swat would be better.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    A swat on the butt teaches degrees of wrong and danger. My parents only hit me twice and I remember both times - once it was because I rode my tricycle down the middle line of a road where cars came around the curb 60 miles an hour. They wanted me to get the point that "NO" wasn't maybe no, or we'll talk about it "no" - or anything else - it meant absolutely, definitely, without a doubt don't even THINK about it. Had they used their normal, talking to, send me to my room, etc, I may have thought it was something I could slide the lines on....and may have died for thinking so.

    On the other hand - I was playing with a friend in a sandbox one day and her little sister got sand in her eye - her mom blamed me without even asking and brought out a belt. It scared me to death to think of being hit with that thing and I ran home and told my mommy real fast. My mother was over there with that bitch pinned to the door telling her that she'd be the one in the real hurt if she ever touched me.

    Now years later - I can still respect my parents for having spanked me for going out in the road like that --- but I ran into the other woman after I was an adult and I got right in her face and asked if she thought she still wanted to belt me. I came very close to wiping the floor with her.

    There are degrees of wrong and we must respond with degrees of punishment - spanking should not injure, that is abuse, but if the "crime" is extremely serious, a kid has to know that it is serious.

    As far as injuring yourself to teach a kid? You are freaking serious? LMAO. Okay, whatever. Humans learn by experience. A kid touches a hot burner - they get a life long lesson at the price of a little owey. That's life. I had a jack-knife my parents showed me how to use....I sliced all four fingers one day. I was told "that wasn't real smart, was it?". I never cut myself again like that. What would my reaction have been if my dad had sliced his own finger to show me what the blade would do? Cripes that would have freaked me out to no eternity... too strange. Kids hurt themselves. You can't protect them from everything or you end up with babies who have no clue how to do anything for themselves as adults. Life's rough. My parents let me hurt myself and I can go out into the wilds and survive now. Had I been protected all my life I'm betting I wouldn't have survived out there a few times when a little discomfort was necessary to save my own rear.

    You can only go so far, until indulgence is more dangerous than a little bit of ouch....(and I'm not talking about beating, so don't go there).

    I'm wondering right now if the dude that set that wildfire not far from here this summer had a daddy who burned his own hand on a flame instead of letting the kid learn for himself. Good grief.
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    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    TRYINGHERE - PETE

    What you experienced is not what the average child experiences.
    What happened to you is just sick and twisted and there was nothing even resembling what most people consider spanking.

    It is understandable that you feel the way you do under the circumstances. Even though my parents swatted me a couple of times I still knew the difference between those swats and seeing that belt in that bitch's hand, and I was only three at the time - it traumatized me bad enough to remember it to actually have to be held back from her when I ran into again and happened to be bigger and stronger.

    Most kids, thank God, never experience the violence you did and don't look back and see a spanking as any real upset later in life as you feel when you look back. I can't imagine for one minute in my life, and really hope I never can, what it was like to live in those conditions. My parents spanked me, but only a few times, and never hard enough that I ever had fear of them. I knew when I got the spanking that I had done something much worse than I had realized and the thought of what I had done scared me seeing the severe reaction they had to it. It wasn't normal for them so I knew it was REALLY bad. I was a brave little tyke and am real glad that I learned right then and there not to even think about transgressing again because I could have died. They did the right thing.

    As I said......too much indulgence is just as harmful as too much brutality in its own way, but not physically. Brutality not only damages the physical body - it leaves the kid with no descretion.
    Kids who are hit all the time never learn any degrees of wrong and everything they do is just as bad or dangerous as everything else. Refusing to clam up when told and running in the road are all the same, so you can't tell where the kid will think that a rule can be stretched and where it is dangerous to do so. They build no judgment skills, just fear or worse, disconcern for anything.

    The same is true of those who are over indulgent. They continue to say no, the kid continues to act up. ...they never learn to listen to anyone and are on their own logic to decide when they cross the line that can't safely be crossed. They also learn no judgment.

    Both children are at risk - the one who is brutalized is at double the risk. There is no love in abuse.......in a light swat, there is usually much love, as well as much concern.

    I am so sorry for what you went through. I am sure it makes you just quiver inside every time you even suspect a parent is ready to slap a kid. I am very glad you have not continued this cycle of cruelty and abuse...many do. I also hope that your trauma doesn't allow you to indulge your children to points that put them in danger. You won't always be there to insist on "no" - they HAVE to know what lines are fatal to cross. They won't learn if you are over protective.....they won't learn if you are overly indulgent.

    If you find your own kids acting uncontrollably, I hope for both of your sakes you seek a good counselor to help with discipline decisions. Don't let your own trauma endanger your children. Don't let having to deal with discipline traumatize you either.

    And just remember that if there weren't monsters like the ones you grew up under, conversations like these would never even be dreamed of.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      TRYINGHERE - PETE - If you find your own kids acting uncontrollably, I hope for both of your sakes you seek a good counselor to help with discipline decisions. Don't let your own trauma endanger your children. Don't let having to deal with discipline traumatize you either. .

      I appreciate your concern, both of my girls are young adults now and only know love.

      thanks and wish you well.

      Guys honestly i am not here to worry about this here, if people wish to have differing views then i respect your views, You know where my views are at, i just want to get back to building online business here. I just tend to get fired up when i see stories of children being hit or hurt, i should learn just to walk on by.

      cheers
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Currently i am organising buying some toys here for Christmas presents for kids / families that are down on their luck this year that will be part of a car club Santa run where the toys will be given to a local charity organisation for distribution on Christmas day.
        Cool Pete.
        We just had the Toys for Tots Bike run here last Sunday.
        To ride in the run you had to bring a new present which where all given to the US Marines for their Toy's for Tots program.
        Over 2,000 local bikers showed up including Hells Angels, Booze Fighters, and at least 4 other local M.C. clubs, plus local R.C. clubs and other citizens who ride. It's one of two times each year that all local bikers, 1%er's and citizens get together for a common cause. The other is the bike blessing every spring that the H.A. hosts.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

        I appreciate your concern, both of my girls are young adults now and only know love.

        thanks and wish you well.

        Guys honestly i am not here to worry about this here, if people wish to have differing views then i respect your views, You know where my views are at, i just want to get back to building online business here. I just tend to get fired up when i see stories of children being hit or hurt, i should learn just to walk on by.

        cheers
        All is good. If your children are happy and well adjusted, isn't that what matters in the long run? I think everyone here loves their kids even with different views on parenting.

        I was spanked a few times and never once felt unloved - some kids never were spanked but don't feel all that loved. The only thing that matters is that a kid is truly cared for - safe, happy, and learns to deal realistically with the world around them.

        Knowing that your own experience was unusual and criminal should help you understand that when people here say spanking, they don't mean torture and that should help relieve some of your emotions about the subject.
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        Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author successfulmom
    Let me ask you this...
    Is it alright for you to hit you wife,
    or husband,
    co-worker or,
    friend or a stranger for that matter???

    Then its not alright to hit your children.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by successfulmom View Post

      Let me ask you this...
      Is it alright for you to hit you wife,
      or husband,
      co-worker or,
      friend or a stranger for that matter???

      Then its not alright to hit your children.
      I completely agree with you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
    I brought up my 5 sons alone.

    I like to think I was firm but fair. I taught them respect from a very early age, no cheek, no arguing etc with their elders. Yes, they did get a smack if I thought it was necessary.

    We had a system where I said to them, "I'll count to 3 and if you haven't stopped beating your brother with that sledgehammer (or whatever the bad behavior was), I will smack you". I very rarely had to administer the said punishment but only because they all knew that I always meant what I said. I never dealt in empty threats.

    One of my sons who is now 27 year old told me a few years ago that the worst thing I ever did to him when he was growing up was to say "I am really disappointed that you ...". It is a bit of a joke now that he is very much a man's man and has served for 8 years in the Royal Navy. Obviously the smacks did not register as abuse in our house but disapproval did!

    So, in my opinion, a smack (I don't mean a beating...) did not do my boys any harm at all and, if you were to ask them, they would agree (at least they had better agree...lol). I also used other tactics such as removing the TV and games console from their room, no spending money etc.

    My sister and her husband, on the other hand, never smacked her kids and both boys ran rings round their parents. One ended up in trouble with the police.

    A bit of well judged discipline never did any harm.

    Opinions on discipline have changed these days though - my oldest son is 38 and my youngest is 26 - in my day, a smack (or swat) on the butt was not frowned on as it is these days.

    Karen
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Opinions on discipline have changed these days though - my oldest son is 38 and my youngest is 26 - in my day, a smack (or swat) on the butt was not frowned on as it is these days.
      Of course, in those days we also did not see Columbine's, did we?

      Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        Of course, in those days we also did not see Columbine's, did we?

        Tina
        Hi Tina,

        I had to 'google' that to see what it was - and no, I can't remember anything like that in my day!

        As has been said before; if you start early, simply the thought of a punishment is usually enough to stop them in their tracks.

        I don't remember having to smack (swat) my kids after they got the idea that I always meant what I said - usually by around 4 or 5 years old.

        Karen
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        Of course, in those days we also did not see Columbine's, did we?
        Assuming you're serious, this is a ridiculously large leap of logic, IMHO.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Why do ppl without kids even care about parents views on spanking? Seems like this was created for controversy.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    I think TMG is one of the most level headed people here, lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Valerie, I need to print that out and show people for them to believe it...lol.

      Tina
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  • Profile picture of the author powderme
    spanking children?for me it's ok if it they will learn from it but make sure it will not create any serious injuries and make sure to explain why.
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  • Profile picture of the author gothic love
    spanking is not helpful there for no one should use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Study: Spanked Children May Grow Up to Be Happier, More Successful - Children's Health - FOXNews.com
    Young children spanked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those who have never been hit, a study has found.
    According to the research, children spanked up to the age of 6 were likely as teenagers to perform better at school and were more likely to carry out volunteer work and to want to go to college than their peers who had never been physically disciplined.
    But children who continued to be spanked into adolescence showed clear behavioral problems.
    Children's groups and lawmakers in the UK have tried several times to have physical chastisement by parents outlawed, the Times of London reported. They claim it is a form of abuse that causes long-term harm to children and say banning it would send a clear signal that violence is unacceptable.
    However, Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, said her study showed there was insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to choose how they discipline their children.
    "The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data," said Gunnoe. "I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just don't use it for all your jobs."
    Research into the effects of spanking was previously hampered by the inability to find enough children who had never been spanked, given its past cultural acceptability.
    But Gunnoe's work drew on a study of 2,600 people, about a quarter of whom had never been physically chastised.
    Spank your kids often.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    children are not protected from spankings, they are protected from beatings...there is a difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      children are not protected from spankings, they are protected from beatings...there is a difference.
      Depends on if it leaves a mark/physical damage.

      It only requires a child to say that they were beaten for the authorities to
      get involved which could really mess up someones day.

      In the case of my son and the neighbor it was a case of assault on a minor.
      The parent should have called me instead of taking actions into his own
      hands.

      He didn't press charges on me and I returned the favor.

      Live and learn!

      ~*MM*~
      PS, My son and the neighbors son did end up painting the shed the right
      way as a result.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Yeah i probably would have lit the neighbor up for smacking my child as well. But junor would have been painting that shed with a sore a$$
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    • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
      I came from a ASian family..

      That said, I get beaten from one county to another like all the time..

      Hey, i turned out fine*

      Disclaimers: *I hope so !
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  • Profile picture of the author chuckster43
    Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

    Im involved in a discussion here at work about spanking children. Some say that its just unheard of to spank a child and should never be done. I am on the other side of the fence and think that spanking is not beating its a form of discipline and there's nothing wrong with a little swat on the butt to get reinforce a point.

    I'd like to hear from some parents on this.
    Mike, I could write on this one all day long and would love to get into a "round table discussion" with anyone on it. It is a touchy subject and you will always get a bunch of people weighing in on it.

    I was disciplined as a child, and then I thought it was rough. But now, 60 + years later, I look back on my father with love and affection. Children are after all children. They are going to try every ounce of patience you have, and then some.

    But as you, and they, go through the phases of life that parents and their children do, there must be a teacher and disciplinarian, and a student and child. We all have a really nice area that can take a lot of rough treatment hanging right there behind us. It does no harm and gets lots of attention when you warm up that area for something that needs to be seriously pointed out to the child.

    You cannot let them get away with anything without them thinking that they are "getting away with something". I am not advocating coporal punishment. BUT, I am advocating punishment for all. That's part of what is wrong with America today. There are not enough serious consequences for things that are being done.

    Chuck
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  • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
    As a child I was hit once, I hit my mother back with all my might, got car keys thrown at me and I walked out the door. She never raised her hand to me prior to that. But like someone else in the thread, by 13 I had lost my virginity, by 15 I was smoking pot full time and was an alchoholic. She never spanked me.

    On the other hand was my little sister who was disobidient from the moment she was born. The ONLY way to get her attention or get her to stop ANY misbehaviour was a swift smack on the backside. By 13 she was turned over to the state because my mother couldn't handle her.

    We both came from the same family, we were both raised in the same home. She was spanked, I wasn't. We both went wayward as teens. To the point I became a teen mom. It all changed at that moment for me. But it had nothing to do with whether or not I was spanked, or whether or not my sister was spanked. We were different personalities and different punishements worked on each of us.

    Now I have 5 children. My eldest I REFUSED to spank. I saw it as child abuse, and I fought with her from the day she was born to keep her disciplined. At around age 4 I gave in and she started getting spankings. Guess what? Other than her preteen angst, she is a prety good kid most of the time.

    My youngest daughter (turning 4) is terrified of spankings, you even mentioned it as an idle threat and her behaviour turns around. Rarely if ever does she get a spanking. She would rather behave on the threat than having it carried through.

    My eldest son, we had involvement from certain agencies and child psych's etc and we're taught methods of restraint. The number of hours I held him in those stupid holds I cannot count. They did not work. He behaviour was NOT changing as a result. Spankings occured and he now behaves fine and its once in a blue moon he ever needs one. Time outs and the regualr punishments work for him.

    My younger two sons, have no concept of pain. Spanking does not work. Timeouts do not work. Restraining results in injury to usually the adult. The only method that works is leaving them alone in their rooms to work out their issues and let them regain themselves and rejoin everyone else.

    My point? EVERY CHILD IS DIFFERENT. For some spankings work. Others the child psych stuff works, others yet timeouts etc. But every child is different and it is up to the parent and child to figure out what works best as a term of punishment. Otherwise, you end up with the children of this generation.

    People are amazed how well behaved my children are, and when they ask how I maintain them that way with so many, I honestly cannot answer, because it is not a simple answer but a complicated one like I just gave. Each child is different and so too should their punishements and consequences be.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author zack_ferdinand
    I think it depends on what type of child you have. If your child easily follows orders, then I dont think spanking is needed. In the case that you spoiled your child, it would be hard to teach them how to be a good boy/girl again unless you spank them.
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  • Profile picture of the author BricknMortar
    Spanking is ok - - -beating is NOT ok - - everything in moderation
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  • Profile picture of the author MamaShell
    I have 3 kids age 11,9, and 1. I have never spanked them. They all are great kids so far. Never really get in any trouble and the older ones are both straight A students. So far so good.
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  • Profile picture of the author dwatkins
    I rarely spanked, and never in anger. When my kids were born, I did not believe in spanking and thought that I would never do it. Then my 2nd child was too smart for his own good. He kept running out into the road (we lived in a rural area, but I had taught them that they were NEVER to go in the road). He was about 4 when I caught him in the road AGAIN. So I tried to reason with him, telling him all the reasons he should not go into the road. He replied: "No mom, I've studied it and the cars always stop." The only reason that made any sense to him was that I would spank him if he did it again. Sometimes, ya gotta...

    That said, I usually tried to use reason and preventative measures with my kids. If they misbehaved, I immediately removed them from the situation. I spent a night or two sitting in the car with a kid who wouldn't behave in the restaurant, while everyone else enjoyed their dinner. It usually only takes one time. (Sitting in the car with an angry mother is no fun.)

    I once had to care for a kid that had a more permissive parent. We went into the grocery store and he went wild, climbing the shelves... I immediately took him and my own kids back to the car and explained how we act in the grocery store. He agreed and we went back in with no problems. USUALLY, once the kids knew what I expected, I had no problems.

    So, I guess I would say that I am in favor of spanking only when necessary, but it was never off the table. Once, I threatened a spanking as a consequence if my terms were not met. My oldest son said "If you spank us I'll call Child Services." I handed him the phone.

    BTW my four boys are all grown now. Two are in the military, one is an engineer and one is a starving actor/singer/dancer. I think they all turned out well.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I love these old threads getting resurrected.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    I think I need a spanking.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Dave, always glad to help out.
    I think I have Ken's number here somewhere!
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