In your Opinion: How can Good Thrive in a wicked World? Been on mind all day.

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This subject has been creeping in and out my mind for awhile now: really wondering how Good can thrive in an evil and Wicked World. am not a negative person, i see all the Good happening all around, but, i have recently been confronted with some realities in our world that breaks my heart.
The Violence, Killings, Manslaughter, Rape, Racism, Poverty, and Worst of all.... Rebellion against The Highest Ruling Sovereign.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Help where you can - and change your focus


    Love, Adventure, Laughter, Kindness, Intimacy, Tolerance, Success...Hope...


    No politics or religious discussion permitted here.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by breedskool View Post

    This subject has been creeping in and out my mind for awhile now: really wondering how Good can thrive in an evil and Wicked World. am not a negative person, i see all the Good happening all around, but, i have recently been confronted with some realities in our world that breaks my heart.
    The Violence, Killings, Manslaughter, Rape, Racism, Poverty, and Worst of all.... Rebellion against The Highest Ruling Sovereign.
    That makes two of us!

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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by breedskool View Post

    This subject has been creeping in and out my mind for awhile now: really wondering how Good can thrive in an evil and Wicked World.
    The world isn't wicked or evil any more than it is good.

    And everyone thinks that they are "good", even the worst of us.
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      The world isn't wicked or evil any more than it is good.

      And everyone thinks that they are "good", even the worst of us.
      And you would know. You are the worst of us.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      The world isn't wicked or evil any more than it is good.

      And everyone thinks that they are "good", even the worst of us.
      It's not that you are evil...it's just that you are good for nothing.
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      Where ever you go, there you are.

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    • Profile picture of the author breedskool
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      The world isn't wicked or evil any more than it is good.

      And everyone thinks that they are "good", even the worst of us.
      That's really interesting!!!! what a revelation on how people now think!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    well first of all don't do any of those things you think are wicked ..and don't be one of those jack wits.. who is doing a wicked thing .. but then running around on a public crusade against people doing the wicked thing you are doing ..

    Poverty around the world in the historic sense is being rapidly eliminated.. but you can always move the bar up as to what poverty is ..so you can never end poverty in that case ..
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    The World isn't a wicked place (IMO). Generally speaking it's a very good place.

    However there definitely are wicked things happening. Similar to what Kay said: When you focus on all the bad that's all you will see ... At the same time, when you focus on all the good, beauty, and wonder (etc.) that's what you will see as well.

    The World "without" is a reflection of the World "within".
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      The World "without" is a reflection of the World "within".
      Deep. Did you steal that from Ryan? lol
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

        Deep. Did you steal that from Ryan? lol
        Lol Well he's a cool knowledgeable guy. What you focus on expands.
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        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
          Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

          Lol Well he's a cool knowledgeable guy.
          You're certainly entitled to your opinion. lol

          What you focus on expands.
          More blather. Nothing more.

          The only thing that I have that expands when I focus on it is . . . . . oh, never mind. Let's just say it's NOT my waistline and leave it at that.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      The World "without" is a reflection of the World "within".

      but what if you're caught in a house fire
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      When you focus on all the bad that's all you will see ... At the same time, when you focus on all the good, beauty, and wonder (etc.) that's what you will see as well.
      I actually agree with that. But if you focus on beauty.....you tend to miss the dangers, the miss steps. my thought is...almost no matter what happens today, good or bad...5 years from now I'm going to have forgotten it anyway.

      And in ten years I'll be dead...and Dan Riffle is the one that killed me.

      Ignore me. Menopause.




      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      The World "without" is a reflection of the World "within".
      Ah, but the world within is also a reflection of the world without. And a world without reflection is a world of no image unto itself....for without a mirror to cast the reflection... the reflection as seen from.......um..... reflection, the world.....the lens of.....as seen through....um...carry the two.......quantum physics.....

      What the hell were we talking about?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        What the hell were we talking about?
        Hey, the title of your next book.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Hey, the title of your next book.
          "What the Hell are We Talking About for Dummies".

          Claude has gambled his entire lifes savings on this publication.

          And he has the $5 Fiverr receipt to prove it!

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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I actually agree with that. But if you focus on beauty.....you tend to miss the dangers, the miss steps. my thought is...almost no matter what happens today, good or bad...5 years from now I'm going to have forgotten it anyway.
        Thanks Claude: I think it depends on the "beauty." Nature for example (or a sun rise maybe) don't have any of those "miss steps". That said I agree with you -- it's important to have a balance (I suppose).
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

          Thanks Claude: I think it depends on the "beauty."

          Nature for example (or a sun rise maybe) don't have any of those "miss steps". That said I agree with you -- it's important to have a balance (I suppose).
          Jonathan. It isn't balance, but awareness. You can appreciate a sunrise, while also being aware that staring into the Sun, after the sunrise....is bad.

          You can look at the Grand Canyon and appreciate the majestic beauty...and still be aware that walking over the ledge is a real mistake.

          Unless you are Dan Riffle, then walking over the edge is not a mistake. Go Dan.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Jonathan. It isn't balance, but awareness.
            OK. Well I appreciate the info.
            : )

            Something that I have learned recently is that when a person is happy/content/loving etc. they see that in other People. And (I suppose) "attract" the same from other People.
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            • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              OK. Well I appreciate the info.
              : )

              Something that I have learned recently is that when a person is happy/content/loving etc. they see that in other People.
              Whether it's actually exist in them, or not? lol

              And (I suppose) "attract" the same from other People.
              Sure you do. You're having a conversation with Claude. Please consider what you are currently attracting. Sadness, agitation and a heart where love goes to die.
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              "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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  • Profile picture of the author IGotMine
    Rebellion against The Highest Ruling Sovereign
    And who would that be??
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    • Profile picture of the author Odahh
      Originally Posted by IGotMine View Post

      And who would that be??
      getting into that would violate discussing politics.. or religion
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

        getting into that would violate discussing politics.. or religion
        Pretty sure he was referring to me, but that's one of my more archaic titles. I like to keep up with the times and am always revising to maintain prominence in today's culture.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

        getting into that would violate discussing politics.. or religion
        Not if it's me. I mean ME.


        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

        Pretty sure he was referring to me, but that's one of my more archaic titles. I like to keep up with the times and am always revising to maintain prominence in today's culture.
        Yes, you are the Jeffrey Dahmer of crap. Still two levels above a Riffle.

        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        Hey, the title of your next book.
        The title of our last conversation.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    When you think things are bad just watch videos of puppies....

    Try Not To Laugh | Funny Puppies Compilation 2017 - YouTube
    I did that was horrific, l will have nightmares about puppies from now on!



    Originally Posted by breedskool View Post

    That's really interesting!!!! what a revelation on how people now think!!!!
    Geesh, we have already told Claude Not to send a box of donuts to members in exchange for a positive remark.

    And keep away from the ones with green icing.

    Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion. lol

    More blather. Nothing more.

    The only thing that I have that expands when I focus on it is . . . . . oh, never mind. Let's just say it's NOT my waistline and leave it at that.
    I would say that we need to update the no politics or religion rule.......

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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Fear is an illusion buddy. A hologram. It is not real.

    But most human beings operate through their mind, not their heart, so since the mind sees and believes this illusory, un-real fear energy, you see wickedness. All mind's fault. Basing reality on appearances, or illusions, and then blaming humanity for buying into a dream that never existed.

    Love people. Be kind. Be generous. Smile. Laugh. Dive into your own fear illusions. Read a book like A Course in Miracles. Eye opener for me.

    Love is real. Fear is illusion. Repeat to yourself, embody this idea and more of humanity will follow your example, spreading love and truth and harmony in the world.

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      Fear is an illusion buddy. A hologram. It is not real.

      But most human beings operate through their mind, not their heart, so since the mind sees and believes this illusory, un-real fear energy, you see wickedness. All mind's fault. Basing reality on appearances, or illusions, and then blaming humanity for buying into a dream that never existed.

      Love people. Be kind. Be generous. Smile. Laugh. Dive into your own fear illusions. Read a book like A Course in Miracles. Eye opener for me.

      Love is real. Fear is illusion. Repeat to yourself, embody this idea and more of humanity will follow your example, spreading love and truth and harmony in the world.

      Ryan

      Jim Jones, is that you.
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Jim Jones, is that you.
        I believe that you owe Jim Jones a sincere apology!
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post


      Love is real. Fear is illusion.
      So.....what about anger, lust, envy, contentment, mirth, joy, melancholy, surprise, pride, happiness? Which of them are real and which are illusions? Is there a grading system?

      How is fear an illusion? It's a feeling, like love. Are you saying that positive feelings are real, and bad feelings are an illusion? Why would you think that?

      If you try a new food and it tastes bad, is that an illusion? If you like the taste, is that real?

      Fears always felt real to me.


      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Since I made a Jeffery Dahmer reference just a couple of days ago, you're the Milton Berle of the WF.

      I want to publicly state today...for the record...that my world revolves around you. If you say a word or a name...I write it down and think about it all day. I can't wait to use it in a sentence. It makes me feel alive.

      And now that you said Milton Berle, I will be constantly thinking of a way to use it myself.

      Thank you...thank you for the inspiration you have given me over the last few years.

      I see you also used the words "couple of days ago".....and I distinctly remember using that phrase recently. So the evidence is clear...you and I teach each other...love each other...and share the same words back and forth.

      And remember Kurt...love is real...fear is illusion. But hate....hate gets me through the day.

      And the cold sweat of despair is what fuels my apathy...which is also illusion....except when coupled with pensiveness.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        And the cold sweat of despair is what fuels my apathy...which is also illusion....except when coupled with pensiveness.
        The cold sweat isn't from apathy. It's from clogged arteries.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        I want to publicly state today...for the record...that my world revolves around you. If you say a word or a name...I write it down and think about it all day. I can't wait to use it in a sentence. It makes me feel alive.

        And now that you said Milton Berle, I will be constantly thinking of a way to use it myself.

        Thank you...thank you for the inspiration you have given me over the last few years.

        I see you also used the words "couple of days ago".....and I distinctly remember using that phrase recently. So the evidence is clear...you and I teach each other...love each other...and share the same words back and forth.

        And remember Kurt...love is real...fear is illusion. But hate....hate gets me through the day.

        And the cold sweat of despair is what fuels my apathy...which is also illusion....except when coupled with pensiveness.
        Claude's off his meds again...
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Why would you think that?
        I can easily answer that for you, but I'm guessing that it was a rhetorical question. :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        I want to publicly state today...for the record...that my world revolves around you. If you say a word or a name...I write it down and think about it all day. I can't wait to use it in a sentence. It makes me feel alive.


        And the cold sweat of despair is what fuels my apathy...which is also illusion....except when coupled with pensiveness.
        well i will avoid visiting your world as it seems as a defensive measure you have filled your orbit with space junk to destroy anything that tries to land ..
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      Fear is an illusion buddy. A hologram. It is not real.

      But most human beings operate through their mind, not their heart, so since the mind sees and believes this illusory, un-real fear energy, you see wickedness. All mind's fault. Basing reality on appearances, or illusions, and then blaming humanity for buying into a dream that never existed.

      Love people. Be kind. Be generous. Smile. Laugh. Dive into your own fear illusions. Read a book like A Course in Miracles. Eye opener for me.

      Love is real. Fear is illusion. Repeat to yourself, embody this idea and more of humanity will follow your example, spreading love and truth and harmony in the world.

      Ryan
      Claude tried to read "Chicken Soup for the Soul" but threw it away when he realized that is wasn't a cookbook.

      Well he tried to eat part of it first, but that is a given!

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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Claude's off his meds again...
    He has been off them for months, trust me on that.

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  • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
    Most human beings operate through their mind because that where their intellect and basic bodily functions originate.

    You know who operates through her heart? Tinker Bell.

    The 'Ignore' functionality needs to be enhanced, to NOT show quoted posts of the person placed on ignore. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

      Most human beings operate through their mind because that where their intellect and basic bodily functions originate.

      You know who operates through her heart? Tinker Bell.

      The 'Ignore' functionality needs to be enhanced, to NOT show quoted posts of the person placed on ignore. lol
      I'd like to put Milton Berle on Ignore....

      See? I knew I was going to say Milton Berle at some point.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        See? I knew I was going to say Milton Berle at some point.
        Uncle Milty does always seem to be on the tip of your tongue.
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Uncle Milty does always seem to be on the tip of your tongue.
          According to Wikipedia, Berle was rumoured to have a large member. The only connection to him and Claude is that the Wooster Businessmans, Sauna, Massage Parlour & Feather Boa Emporium say that they have a large member.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            According to Wikipedia, Berle was rumoured to have a large member. The only connection to him and Claude is that the Wooster Businessmans, Sauna, Massage Parlour & Feather Boa Emporium say that they have a large member.
            Hear that?

            That's the sound of a joke going over your head. And let me tell you, that joke wasn't very high off the ground.

            (Cue Claude dog whistle.)
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Hear that?

              That's the sound of a joke going over your head. And let me tell you, that joke wasn't very high off the ground.

              (Cue Claude dog whistle.)
              All I got was "Uncle Milty"..."Large member"..."On the tip of your tongue"

              Sounds like a party.
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            • Profile picture of the author Odahh
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Hear that?

              That's the sound of a joke going over your head. And let me tell you, that joke wasn't very high off the ground.

              (Cue Claude dog whistle.)
              It's been almost a Day ..and claude's response to that wasn't ..recognition of your expertise of the sound of thing going over your head ....

              guess i have to lower my expectation on clauds humor ..but that would requiring digging a deep hole ..
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                It's been almost a Day ..and claude's response to that wasn't ..recognition of your expertise of the sound of thing going over your head ....

                guess i have to lower my expectation on clauds humor ..but that would requiring digging a deep hole ..
                The word "Guttural" comes to mind.
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                • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  The word "Guttural" comes to mind.
                  guttural a thousand foot hole drilled straight down is not a gutter
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  The word "Guttural" comes to mind.
                  I believe that Guttural and This forum has reached a new low, is reserved for another recent thread?

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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Claude says:

                    "I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it."

                    I think for you, the limit would be about 2

                    And that's being generous
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                    Where ever you go, there you are.

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                  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    Claude says:

                    "I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it."

                    I think for you, the limit would be about 2

                    And that's being generous
                    One meal and a plate of donuts!

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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Hear that?

              That's the sound of a joke going over your head. And let me tell you, that joke wasn't very high off the ground.

              (Cue Claude dog whistle.)
              OK, I give up...explain the joke. What am I missing?
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                OK, I give up...explain the joke. What am I missing?
                You didn't miss the joke. Mark did. Look at his reply to me. He stepped on the subtlety of my joke.

                My dog whistle comment was related to something else. I gave you a prime opening for a short joke.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  You didn't miss the joke. Mark did. Look at his reply to me. He stepped on the subtlety of my joke.

                  My dog whistle comment was related to something else. I gave you a prime opening for a short joke.
                  Why would I make a short joke?

                  You aren't short at all. You are completely adequate.

                  In fact, keep telling yourself that.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Why would I make a short joke?

                    You aren't short at all. You are completely adequate.

                    In fact, keep telling yourself that.
                    I gave you a "prime opening" in that last post, too, and you missed it.

                    You're slipping, old man.
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                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  You didn't miss the joke. Mark did. Look at his reply to me. He stepped on the subtlety of my joke.

                  My dog whistle comment was related to something else. I gave you a prime opening for a short joke.
                  "A penis with a sub conscience of men named Milton" Urban dictionary

                  You see Dan, sophisticated people like Claude and myself have no knowledge of this street jive, slang way of talking and have to look it up.

                  Aside from your written discourses, I have never heard a Garden Gnome articulate words or write them down.. But if I did.. I know they would drink Corona
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    "A penis with a sub conscience of men named Milton" Urban dictionary

                    You see Dan, sophisticated people like Claude and myself have no knowledge of this street jive, slang way of talking and have to look it up.

                    Aside from your written discourses, I have never heard a Garden Gnome articulate words or write them down.. But if I did.. I know they would drink Carona
                    I stopped reading at, "sophisticated people like Claude and myself."
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  • Profile picture of the author TweetSpecialist
    We cannot change these realities... History has proven this. We can only change ourselves. Most times, what we see reflects of who we are and what we are becoming.
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  • I kinda knoo the deeper I dropped into this comment trail, the likelier I'd find myself takin' in a large member & wondrin' what in hell it had to do with the original question.


    Prolly I psychic.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Prolly I psychic.
      I knew you would say that.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      I kinda knoo the deeper I dropped into this comment trail, the likelier I'd find myself takin' in a large member & wondrin' what in hell it had to do with the original question.


      Prolly I psychic.
      Yes, the Psychic Squid has recently perished, so we are only left with the Irish Pig, sniff.

      But l have to admit that he brings home the bacon, and doesn't squeal about it, lol.

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  • Profile picture of the author Richa seth
    World is Beautiful....The people who commit crimes are also Good but they Just lack sense and sometimes they get greedy.If they are taught with love and respect they would understand their mistake.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    maybe a tad off topic.

    When I see criminals...even the worst of them, I see them as broken...defective.

    Whether their world view is skewed badly, or they have impulses beyond their control, or they were abused badly enough to make them violent...whatever the reason...

    There is something wrong with them.

    People with healthy brains don't abuse other people. They don't have impulse control problems, they aren't violent.

    Why? Because these things are harmful to the person that has these symptoms. Of course they are harmful to their victims as well.

    And a question I have asked before...if you were trapped on an island all by yourself....no other living thing except plant life....no hope of escape....you are all alone for the rest of your life...

    Could you do anything evil? Could you do good? Evil and good are in the eye of the beholder. If there is nobody else on the island to behold....how could it be moral ir immoral?

    Anyway, back to work for me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Could you do anything evil? Could you do good? Evil and good are in the eye of the beholder. If there is nobody else on the island to behold....how could it be moral ir immoral?
      Yes. Morality is a conceived notion or set of principals based on how one acts and reacts to his environment. The key to your scenario is, as the sole arbiter of morality, you would get to decide your own moral rules, therefore your definition would determine right or wrong.

      Typically, morality is an overly social construct - or social contract - that we have with those around us. If nobody's around, you maintain it within yourself. Over time, as you descend into lunacy, your morality will probably fall to the wayside as you transition from a social human being into a feral creature stalking the island's crabs. You'd still weigh things as right or wrong, but the determining factors would be mostly self-indulgent. So, basically, how you live now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        Yes. Morality is a conceived notion or set of principals based on how one acts and reacts to his environment. The key to your scenario is, as the sole arbiter of morality, you would get to decide your own moral rules, therefore your definition would determine right or wrong.
        Well thought out.

        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        but the determining factors would be mostly self-indulgent. So, basically, how you live now.
        Yeah, I was...HEY!

        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

        You could kill yourself. Some groups consider that immoral.
        And you could think that you are doing an immoral thing, as you did it. OK, I get it.

        I hate you. Not as much as I hate Riffle, but it's technically still hate.
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        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I hate you. Not as much as I hate Riffle.
          Well, I love having a goal to aspire to. I will try harder to achieve such a lofty goal.
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          "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      how could it be moral or immoral?
      You could kill yourself. Some groups consider that immoral.

      Anyway, back to work for me.
      Your funniest post, ever!
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      "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I believe 95% of morality is pretty easy to define. Simply it's the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This basic concept is the foundation for many of the World's religions and philosophies.

    Some of the 5% that becomes harder to define is in isolation, as Claude pointed out., when there's no one to treat as you'd want to be treated. I do think this can still apply to animals for food. We have to eat, but we don't have to torture the animals we catch and can try to ease their pain as much as possible...but in a survival situation the #1 Law of Nature takes over, which is "eat and don't be eaten".
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Some of the 5% that becomes harder to define is in isolation, as Claude pointed out., when there's no one to treat as you'd want to be treated..

      Chimps and some other higher animals also show reciprocity, fairness, and the ability to judge others as unfair. Watching a group of chimps trade favors, help others use tools, teach other chimp's young how to crack open nuts and clams...how to share....and how to banish those who don't share.

      And they don't have any religion or philosophy at all. Much of this seems to be instinctual. (at least to me)

      I suspect that we would be much the same with morality, whether we invented churches, laws, hierarchy.
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Chimps and some other higher animals also show reciprocity, fairness, and the ability to judge others as unfair. Watching a group of chimps trade favors, help others use tools, teach other chimp's young how to crack open nuts and clams...how to share....and how to banish those who don't share.
        I'll bet you really love your family reunions, except for constantly being banished. Learn to share!
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Chimps and some other higher animals also show reciprocity, fairness, and the ability to judge others as unfair. Watching a group of chimps trade favors, help others use tools, teach other chimp's young how to crack open nuts and clams...how to share....and how to banish those who don't share.

        And they don't have any religion or philosophy at all. Much of this seems to be instinctual. (at least to me)

        I suspect that we would be much the same with morality, whether we invented churches, laws, hierarchy.
        Using my definition of morals, the Golden Rule, history shows that humans are becoming more moral even though religion, laws and hierarchies have existed for thousands of years.

        Slavery, debtors prisons, concerns about civilian causalities in warfare, the Geneva Convention, civil rights, women rights, labor laws and many more all are examples. Have you seen any of the torture devices used during ancient times or the Middle Ages? Do you think crucifixion or impaling would be considered acceptable as punishment today?
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Using my definition of morals, the Golden Rule, history shows that humans are becoming more moral even though religion, laws and hierarchies have existed for thousands of years.

          Slavery, debtors prisons, concerns about civilian causalities in warfare, the Geneva Convention, civil rights, women rights, labor laws and many more all are examples. Have you seen any of the torture devices used during ancient times or the Middle Ages? Do you think crucifixion or impaling would be considered acceptable as punishment today?
          Maybe because the churches are pretty static, but cultures, and social acceptance change rapidly.

          I think that public scrutiny and a popular consensus against such things is probably more instrumental than better morals.

          And, we used to torture partly out of ignorance. If you believe in witches and curses...torture may be more acceptable. And it was a show of power...sometimes from the church and sometimes from those in power.

          Even 100 years ago, a public hanging was considered a community affair. refreshments were sold, and there was an entertainment aspect to it.

          We are better educated, better fed, and better connected with the rest of our community than even 50 years ago. Our culture changes what is more acceptable.

          For example, 20 years ago do you think Al Franken or Chris Hardwick would instantly lose their entire career..and be ostracized for pinching a woman's bottom, or just making her feel "uncomfortable"? It's the ever shifting culture...it tells us what is acceptable or not....

          In 1950 men brought home the income and mowed the lawn. That was their job. If they beat their wife..or beat their kids.....nobody said a word. I don't think men were more morally bankrupt back then..more evil...it was what was accepted. In some cases...what was expected. The definition of "Being a man" changed rapidly in the last few decades.

          Do teachers paddle misbehaving students today? No. Is it because they are better people than 30 years ago? Or is it because our culture no longer accepts that this is normal?

          I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it.

          Now that I said all that, you are certainly right that history shows us to be a more "Moral" planet than at anytime in recorded history. And even very recent history.

          But I don't think it's because we have evolved, or changed our instincts.

          Of course, I could be a mental patient..imagining all this....no idea how to tell.
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          • Profile picture of the author Odahh
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Do teachers paddle misbehaving students today? No. Is it because they are better people than 30 years ago? Or is it because our culture no longer accepts that this is normal?

            I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it.

            Now that I said all that, you are certainly right that history shows us to be a more "Moral" planet than at anytime in recorded history. And even very recent history.

            But I don't think it's because we have evolved, or changed our instincts.

            Of course, I could be a mental patient..imagining all this....no idea how to tell.
            well is it because teachers are better people or because schools now make money for every kid who need to medicated for adhd or other behavior problems ..so we are now drugging kids to sit in the chair .. instead of teaching them real discipline in any way .. which teaching from the same book that where used 30 years ago .. instead of more modern book or just lessong on tablets or computer .. like they will learn from when not in school.. but we have not updated the education system for lifetime learning..

            we are not so much better people or more moral .. it is just harder to hide stuff or get away with it today ... and getting that way faster and faster .. hard trade .. off get rid of privacy ..and then just accept how people act as long as it doesn't hurt other people .. ..or whatever will happen with the complete loss of privacy where everyone can see every thing you do..if we continue into this world of piled up stupid laws .. with real crimes being put on the same level as nuisance crimes .. people will cluster around those with similar moral or ethical lifestyle.. and the way are societies have been structured with at least legat moral end ethical standers placed on them from some level of government .. or religion .. will not work anymore ..

            no point in trying to put a show of being a good person to the world .. if it easy to find out some of the less than socially accepted things you do in semi private can be easily found out.. just walk in te world and surround yourself with people who won't criticized you for doing things they are doing or doing similar things when not around you that you do ..

            (as for you being a mental patient .. just how long have you been arguing with shane on this section of the forum ... about the same kind of thing.. and getting no where .. that's the einstienian definition of insanity .. and don't worry it on the internet .. so it might be totally imagined
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

              (as for you being a mental patient .. just how long have you been arguing with shane on this section of the forum ... about the same kind of thing.. and getting no where .. that's the einstienian definition of insanity .. and don't worry it on the internet .. so it might be totally imagined
              I don't expect a different result. I expect the result I get. But there is some small part of my brain that keeps telling me to try.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Maybe because the churches are pretty static, but cultures, and social acceptance change rapidly.

            I think that public scrutiny and a popular consensus against such things is probably more instrumental than better morals.

            And, we used to torture partly out of ignorance. If you believe in witches and curses...torture may be more acceptable. And it was a show of power...sometimes from the church and sometimes from those in power.

            Even 100 years ago, a public hanging was considered a community affair. refreshments were sold, and there was an entertainment aspect to it.

            We are better educated, better fed, and better connected with the rest of our community than even 50 years ago. Our culture changes what is more acceptable.

            For example, 20 years ago do you think Al Franken or Chris Hardwick would instantly lose their entire career..and be ostracized for pinching a woman's bottom, or just making her feel "uncomfortable"? It's the ever shifting culture...it tells us what is acceptable or not....

            In 1950 men brought home the income and mowed the lawn. That was their job. If they beat their wife..or beat their kids.....nobody said a word. I don't think men were more morally bankrupt back then..more evil...it was what was accepted. In some cases...what was expected. The definition of "Being a man" changed rapidly in the last few decades.

            Do teachers paddle misbehaving students today? No. Is it because they are better people than 30 years ago? Or is it because our culture no longer accepts that this is normal?

            I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it.

            Now that I said all that, you are certainly right that history shows us to be a more "Moral" planet than at anytime in recorded history. And even very recent history.

            But I don't think it's because we have evolved, or changed our instincts.

            Of course, I could be a mental patient..imagining all this....no idea how to tell.
            I never claimed we "evolved" or changed our "instincts", only that we treat others better today than we have in the past which to me means we are more moral today.

            As for your comment about "missing 10 meals", I'll repeat my previous comment for those that are a little slow in the head....I said the Golden Rule applies 95% of the time. The other time is when we are in survival mode which the #1 Rule of Nature takes over, and that's eat and don't be eaten. You can also take this to mean "kill and don't be killed", but for obvious reasons I thought you would relate better to "eating".

            I also disagree with your opinion that churches are "pretty static". Actually, they have evolved consistently and often over the years, usually in response to changing societies, but that's a discussion against forum rules.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I never claimed we "evolved" or changed our "instincts", only that we treat others better today than we have in the past which to me means we are more moral today.
              If the definition of "more Moral" is that we are less cruel to each other, I agree. And I see your point.

              But is someone more moral just because society forces them to act that way?


              I looked it up.

              Moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
              2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.

              It appears that your interpretation is correct. It indicates that when people talk about "Morality" it's more an external control on their behavior, than an internal barometer that is born in them.

              That actually explains quite a lot. When I have heard people talk about morals...they never seemed to be talking about an internal quality...but an imposed religion or code of ethics.

              When I would hear someone say "You cannot be moral without religion", it sounded ridiculous to me. But now it makes more sense.

              When a person is being kind to someone else, just because they want to be that way...meaning it's their natural behavior.....it isn't exactly the same as morality, it's just their nature.
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          • Profile picture of the author Odahh
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post



            I don't for a second think we are better people. My real thought is that most of us are ten missed meals away from killing each other. And the last few missed meals are just because we have to work ourselves up to it.

            Now that I said all that, you are certainly right that history shows us to be a more "Moral" planet than at anytime in recorded history. And even very recent history.
            I don't think we are even more morale.. we is just getting harder and harder to treat others badly or brutally and not have people find out about it ..

            we currently have a fragile but efficient food supply network.. but there is less than a week's supply of food on hand in most cities and areas .. i listen to a pastor/missionary .. who has been down to venezuela which was one of the riches countries in south america a few decades ago.. he said they don't supply the people in prison with food.. so if a new chubby inmate gets put in prison.. there is a risk he will be killed and eaten withing the first week ..

            are we a few missed meals from killing each other.. if a huge number of people are unable to cook or prepare food .. and have no idea how to take raw ingredients and turn them into a meal .. the is not much hope for thos even willing to kill .. because In the USa .. those who have the stores of food and the knowledge to prepare it.. also have the foresight to own guns to protect it . or to grow food crops that a huge number of people don't recognize as food .

            part of the reason we have the food system we have is we have the ability to feed people a bunch of food like substances .. but not the ability at this point to grow nutrient rich crops and distribute them in mass ..so it better to feed people something the think is food .. then risk feeding them nothing and have them mass together and riot to collapse the system .. that almost happened during the great depression . ..and brought hitler and mousulini to power in europe .
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

              I don't think we are even more morale.. we is just getting harder and harder to treat others badly or brutally and not have people find out about it ..
              I think that's where the discussion faltered. ...defining what is meant by morality.

              To me, it just meant a sense of fair play, but it's a more structured cultural thing.

              But it's relative. For example, in the Dark Ages, the people torturing their victims never thought "This is immoral. I'm doing an immoral act".

              It's only in hindsight that we see the differences and improvements.

              When I see in courts that the defendant "knew the difference between right and wrong", it always sounded strange to me. How is that defined? Is it even possible for someone to think "I know that this is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway"? I would think that they just did it without thinking....without letting the rightness or wrongness of it enter their mind.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I think that's where the discussion faltered. ...defining what is meant by morality.

                To me, it just meant a sense of fair play, but it's a more structured cultural thing.

                But it's relative. For example, in the Dark Ages, the people torturing their victims never thought "This is immoral. I'm doing an immoral act".

                It's only in hindsight that we see the differences and improvements.

                When I see in courts that the defendant "knew the difference between right and wrong", it always sounded strange to me. How is that defined? Is it even possible for someone to think "I know that this is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway"? I would think that they just did it without thinking....without letting the rightness or wrongness of it enter their mind.
                What is considered "Right & Wrong" is a consensus of opinion collectively adopted by any given society. Your participation and acceptance of it (or not) in that society will be a major factor in how successful you are going to be within it.

                You may not harbour any of its principals in reality but in order to survive and thrive you see the virtue of compromise
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  What is considered "Right & Wrong" is a consensus of opinion collectively adopted by any given society. Your participation and acceptance of it (or not) in that society will be a major factor in how successful you are going to be within it.

                  You may not harbour any of its principals in reality but in order to survive and thrive you see the virtue of compromise
                  Or you can pretend that the cultural norm in question was never actually that way, at least to your memory, and blame said change on a South African politician.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  What is considered "Right & Wrong" is a consensus of opinion collectively adopted by any given society. Your participation and acceptance of it (or not) in that society will be a major factor in how successful you are going to be within it.

                  You may not harbour any of its principals in reality but in order to survive and thrive you see the virtue of compromise
                  True and painfully obvious after seeing 1984 and The Sound of Music.

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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    as far as the golden rule ..very few people actually practice it ..and there are a whole bunch of those age old rules people ignore on a regular basis .. as people generally treat other differently based on their perceive higher or lower station if the power order or economic ladder .. than them .

    morale and criminal behaviour is relative to the environment you are in and what the social order ..how much benign harmless crap has been turned into criminal behaviors at one point in time ..right now communities on the west coast .. seattle ,santa barbara .. and many others are bassing bans on plastice straws ..get caught handing out a few dozen straws to people .. get fined and face jail time for each seperate straw .. drop trow and crap on the side walk in the middle of the day in parts of california .. the cops don't even bother handing out a ticket ..

    get caught with cigarette rolling papers and no tobacco .. you can be charged with a drug paraphernalia charge ..that gets you harsher penalties than actually having illegal drugs ..

    have to much money on you in the eyes of a cop in many parts of the country .. they can sieze the money from you without actually charging you with a crime ..

    Here in tucson arizona .. they have just passed a smoking ban on any public land and all land not privatly owned .

    at what point do these stupid laws start adding up with harsher penalties than violent crimes .. do people just start picking and choosing what laws they follow and when .. or people who would normally not break laws give up and pick and chose ..

    a few girls dancing in the woods in salem a few hundred years ago while a black slave woman was playing a drum .. set of the witch trials .. which turned out to be the country folk against the wealther town folk.. or some such ..

    we may be more inteligent .. and this may be on of the better countries to live in... but morality and immorality .. when parent can train their children to scream at smokers from 40 feet away .. "why are you killing me "

    WE are not much better ..no when we have 3 time more people in prisons than the rest of the planet and for longer terms

    (as for the lone person on the island would finding a way to destroy as much of the plant life on the island or slashing and burning it .. until there was no food to eat .. would that be considered evil, suicide or bad ..
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