A Time Travel Thought Experiment

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Let's pretend for a second that someone came to you and told you that you could travel to the past in their time machine. Here are the conditions;

1) You could not influence the past in any way. This isn't a rule you have to follow..you are unable to influence the past.
2) You will be completely undetectable by anyone in the past. You have no mass, no ability to influence objects. Like a ghost, just able to see the past unfold.
3) You can travel anywhere in the past, at any speed. You can replay a specific moment over and over again if you like. But you are only able to observe, not touch, influence, or be detectable in any way.

The question is, if you went back 100 years and watched a day in a city go buy...and you repeated that day 1,000 times...would it ever change? No.

Every person would behave exactly the same way every time. Every time, everything would unfold the same way. Every decision would be the same, every action would be the same.

But why wouldn't the day be different every time you went into the past to see that same day unfold? Why would it be the same?

Don't the people you observe have free will? Can't they decide differently than they did before?

The problem is, the past has only one path....and it is going to be the same no matter how you observe it, how many times you go back.

So....what is the difference between the past and the future? You can see the past, but you cannot see the future. The path that the universe took in the past, is knowable.

Why isn't the future knowable just like the past? Because it depends on where we were in the time stream when we decided to go back into our past.

Think about this...if a person in 1,000 years had a time machine and they could observe an incident or event somewhere on Earth in their past...let's say today...our present, their past....would any thing we do today change? No. Remember, we are just part of their past. They have already seen what happened today, tomorrow, the next day. It's just that we have not.

So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

Sweet dreams.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will?

    It's the will that is witnessed.

    Why would it need to change?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

      It's the will that is witnessed.

      Why would it need to change?
      Nailed it in the first post. In Claude's scenario he is observing the past as free will is exercised so it says nothing about free will. Everything he is seeing is an expression of what he is hoping to isolate to see if it exists or not. Since he can't isolate the existence of free will it shows nothing. Could he affect the present by exercising an action based on what he saw in the past? undoubtedly.

      The reason the present and future is different is that free will is not exercised yet. In the past if it exists it already would have been exercised.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Nailed it in the first post. In Claude's scenario he is observing the past as free will is exercised so it says nothing about free will. Everything he is seeing is an expression of what he is hoping to isolate to see if it exists or not. Since he can't isolate the existence of free will it shows nothing. Could he affect the present by exercising an action based on what he saw in the past? undoubtedly.

        The reason the present and future is different is that free will is not exercised yet. In the past if it exists it already would have been exercised.
        Although Claude lambasted me about there being multiple, indeed infinite timelines where infinite variations of free will were being exercised. (because I sought a legitimate reason for the alleged Mandela Effect, timelines sometimes merging or affecting each other etc)

        The timeline you were on and repeatedly were going back along to a point to observe, would never change. One timeline, one set of outcomes, one set of collective free will. If there were changes on each visit, then what would you say caused it?
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        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Although Claude lambasted me about there being multiple, indeed infinite timelines where infinite variations of free will were being exercised. (because I sought a legitimate reason for the alleged Mandela Effect, timelines sometimes merging or affecting each other etc)

          The timeline you were on and repeatedly were going back along to a point to observe, would never change. One timeline, one set of outcomes, one set of collective free will.
          to get where where are there is only one timeline and all the choices made in the past would or should happen the same way .. if you observed things in the past on one timeline and they happened differently over the observation of many events.. but nothing about the present you live in changes .. it would be more a case for predetermination ..because no matter what choice people ever made.. the eventual outcome would always be the same..

          damn i don't know if i can say this clearer .. but i want to ..so no matter how many timeline there are in the past ..at some point they merge and create the same exact world you live in today .. or nearly exact with a few hickups ...but
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

            to get where where are there is only one timeline and all the choices made in the past would or should happen the same way .. if you observed things in the past on one timeline and they happened differently over the observation of many events.. but nothing about the present you live in changes .. it would be more a case for predetermination ..because no matter what choice people ever made.. the eventual outcome would always be the same..

            damn i don't know if i can say this clearer .. but i want to ..so no matter how many timeline there are in the past ..at some point they merge and create the same exact world you live in today .. or nearly exact with a few hickups ...but
            Hello to you, fellow Mandela Effect Advocate. Have you been seeing a few Hiccups yourself?

            Recording: The removal of a Claude Whitacre post by himself where he stated that a few of us do not get what he is trying to say. Given that the original thought exercise was completely pulled apart, please briefly state what you are trying to say "Now". Keep it simple, short sentences with bullet points. Thank you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            You and a couple others are misunderstanding what I am saying.
            Perhaps. But Mark being unable to resist bringing up Mandela is a more convincing argument against free will than anything put forward by Laplace.



            EDIT: Did the post I just quoted disappear along a separate timeline?
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Perhaps. But Mark being unable to resist bringing up Mandela is a more convincing argument against free will than anything put forward by Laplace.



              EDIT: Did the post I just quoted disappear along a separate timeline?
              It's The Claudela Effect
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          The timeline you were on and repeatedly were going back along to a point to observe, would never change. One timeline, one set of outcomes, one set of collective free will. If there were changes on each visit, then what would you say caused it?

          sorry for the late reply but rarely here any more and missed this.

          The common assumption that you can't change the past is that it necessarily creates a contradiction. If you went back and told yourself to marry another woman then since its the past in the future you would already have been married to that woman so no need to go back and change it.

          However if you did go back and told your younger self to marry that woman but that in order to continue to be married to her (or at all) you needed to go back in time and tell yourself to marry her the contradiction would mostly vanish. You both would have the memory of telling yourself to marry her in the past and you would have the consciousness that you needed to go back and tell yourself to do so.

          The fact that you always had that memory doesn't mean objectively it was never changed. I guess that could set up some other issues but really it doesn't affect Claude's point ( which yes has been dismantled - its just easier for people to say its not what they meant than thinking through their own position). The fact that you made a free will decision in the past that got cemented because you exercised a decision in no way shape or form means you don't have free will to make that decision before it was cemented.

          All of which doesn't settle the issue of free will . It just indicates what Claude is construing as evidence for no free will isn't at all real proof.

          No free will has a higher burden of proof. Most mature adults have come across situations where we recognized we wanted something and even gave in to it and then decided that we needed to break that desire. We also have had times we changed our minds. Some would say - sure based on new information - but where do new ideas come from - humans. You can have a brand new idea based on the same data you had a week ago and it can set you on a trajectory you never would without and that was you causing that trajectory..
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    When time traveling, does everyone else lock the doors on the DeLorean when they pass Wooster?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

    Sweet dreams.

    The time traveler obviously has no life and too much time on his hands and is akin to a Peeping Tom and since the time traveler is an invisible Peeping Tom it speaks of no regard to our actions and thoughts.


    It must be true.. I read it in the internet
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

      The time traveler obviously has no life and too much time on his hands and is akin to a Peeping Tom and since the time traveler is an invisible Peeping Tom it speaks of no regard to our actions and thoughts.


      It must be true.. I read it in the internet
      Jeffery, I like you. I might just move to Kissimmee so we can hang out.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        Jeffery, I like you. I might just move to Kissimmee so we can hang out.

        The door is always open Dan. Word of warning though, the first time you visit you are my guest and I will fetch the brews from the fridge and after that you are family and I will point you to the fridge, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

    Sweet dreams.
    Do you expect a movie to change simply because you've watched it multiple times? This is the same as the scenario you've set up.

    This is your weakest argument against free will.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Do you expect a movie to change simply because you've watched it multiple times? This is the same as the scenario you've set up.

      This is your weakest argument against free will.
      The problem is, is that Claude is coming from his own perspective, and that is not the perspective of everyone.

      Sure some, regardless will not change, and others if presented with evidence will change.

      The ones that will change their minds, are typically the ones that advance society forward and topple long established beliefs.

      And oiling their chainsaws, and stockpiling popcorn is purely coincidental.

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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Do you expect a movie to change simply because you've watched it multiple times? This is the same as the scenario you've set up.

      This is your weakest argument against free will.
      That wasn't my argument. That was setting up my argument that came later. Here;

      "Think about this...if a person in 1,000 years had a time machine and they could observe an incident or event somewhere on Earth in their past...let's say today...our present, their past....would any thing we do today change? No. Remember, we are just part of their past. They have already seen what happened today, tomorrow, the next day. It's just that we have not.

      So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts? "


      In other words, if a person from 1,000 years in the future knew exactly what was going to happen a year from now...every event, every conversation, every reaction, every word...in their exact order....

      And it's going to happen exactly the same way no matter how many times he visits his past (our future), how can we have free will...everything is going to happen one way, as it always has in the past. We simply aren't aware of our future, because we haven't experienced it yet. So to us, it's not certain, it can change. we can change it.

      But we were always going to make the decisions we will make....one track...one history...even when seeing our near future...from the far future.


      It may not technically be an argument against free will (although I find it pretty conclusive), but it's an argument that we are always going to behave...in every way...in a certain way, without change, without fail. And that way is completely predictable, if we have enough information.

      Look up Laplace's Demon from a difference source if it makes you feel better. It may not be interesting to you (or to anyone else) but I find it compelling.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        That wasn't my argument. That was setting up my argument that came later. Here;

        "Think about this...if a person in 1,000 years had a time machine and they could observe an incident or event somewhere on Earth in their past...let's say today...our present, their past....would any thing we do today change? No. Remember, we are just part of their past. They have already seen what happened today, tomorrow, the next day. It's just that we have not.

        So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts? "


        In other words, if a person from 1,000 years in the future knew exactly what was going to happen a year from now...every event, every conversation, every reaction, every word...in their exact order....

        And it's going to happen exactly the same way no matter how many times he visits his past (our future), how can we have free will...everything is going to happen one way, as it always has in the past. We simply aren't aware of our future, because we haven't experienced it yet. So to us, it's not certain, it can change. we can change it.

        But we were always going to make the decisions we will make....one track...one history...even when seeing our near future...from the far future.


        It may not technically be an argument against free will (although I find it pretty conclusive), but it's an argument that we are always going to behave...in every way...in a certain way, without change, without fail. And that way is completely predictable, if we have enough information.

        Look up Laplace's Demon from a difference source if it makes you feel better. It may not be interesting to you (or to anyone else) but I find it compelling.
        I agree with you if the assumption is that someone can travel from the future to our present. This assumes that our present isn't the farthest point forward.

        I've always subscribed to the tenet that the present (our present) is the bleeding edge of time, thus someone can't travel from the future to our present because the future has yet to happen.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          I agree with you if the assumption is that someone can travel from the future to our present. This assumes that our present isn't the farthest point forward.

          I've always subscribed to the tenet that the present (our present) is the bleeding edge of time, thus someone can't travel from the future to our present because the future has yet to happen.
          You might be right, and although, if true, it would negate my time travel story...t wouldn't affect free will.

          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          This is an issue with the premise. If a time traveler went back in time multiple times, the past wouldn't be exactly the same. The past would have been visited by a person of different times.
          No. Remember, the time traveler is undetectable by anyone, doesn't have mass, temperature, has no influence on anything. It would be identical to no time traveler at all, except for the ability to observe.
          In fact, the same person could go back to the same moment, the same location, 1,000 times, and none of these visits would interfere with anything...even the other visitors.

          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Chubby, here's a question for you: what if a person lives his life by random chance? What if his decisions are determined by the flip of a coin or a random number generator?

          What if we take away the predictability of the culmination of life experiences that dictate the decision making process?

          What if actually giving up one's free will (or illusion of such) is actually the ultimate demonstration of free will?

          Forget the fact that this person probably wouldn't live very long as that's beside the point. He would certainly be hit by a bus crossing the street.
          What happens to us, and what we do is only marginally affected by free will (if it exists). Random chance, like in a random number generator, would always produce the same results if we went into the past to observe it. Why? Because the atoms are in the exact same location, the electricity moves in exactly the same path...it would be impossible to produce a different result.

          And if a person't decisions were really completely random, the actions themselves would always be the same...the chink in this theory of mine is if our present moment is truly the edge of time, and nothing has happened after this moment.
          But physicists tend to think that it's more like we are traveling down a line, and we can only observe what has happened, not what will happen.

          There is a strong physics/astronomical theory that we could observe our own future if we observed the earth from far enough away, and could travel back to Earth faster than light. I may have messed up this idea, but when I watched it explained on the last Cosmos (I think) it sounded very convincing.

          But a separate idea is that of Laplace's Demon...if we can know the location of every atom, the velocity and direction of every atomic particle in the universe, we could accurately predict everything (including the words we say) for the next million years.

          I haven't been able to find a flaw in that idea yet. But you may have killed my time travel idea...or at least make me go back to the drawing board.

          By the way, as soon as I posted my original post, I saw a flaw in the premise. Instead of waiting longer to see if anyone spotted it........ it was my assumption that the past only has one path. It only has one path that we are aware of, but I made an assumption that isn't proven...maybe obvious, but not proven.

          Anyway, this was more fun than I expected.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


            No. Remember, the time traveler is undetectable by anyone, doesn't have mass, temperature, has no influence on anything. It would be identical to no time traveler at all, except for the ability to observe.
            In fact, the same person could go back to the same moment, the same location, 1,000 times, and none of these visits would interfere with anything...even the other visitors.
            .
            No, if the time traveler doesn't have mass or energy it doesn't exist and certainly wouldn't be able to observe.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              No, if the time traveler doesn't have mass or energy it doesn't exist and certainly wouldn't be able to observe.
              OK, I'll give you that. Let's change it to a time traveler that can travel back in time, position themselves outside our atmosphere...and just watch what i happening on Earth.

              Although I get your point, you are concentrating on the wrong thing in my story.

              And...I do the same thing. Listen to a story or watch a movie...and see cracks, inconsistencies, and impossible connections made....and it takes me away from the point of the story.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                OK, I'll give you that. Let's change it to a time traveler that can travel back in time, position themselves outside our atmosphere...and just watch what i happening on Earth.
                Your parameters are set up to prove your point. If no new catalyst is inserted, the assumption would be nothing changes. I think this was said earlier, but it would be more demonstrative of a lack of free will if a catyst was inserted and still nothing changed. I think that holds up even if a time traveler came to our present. If he merely observes, there really shouldn't be an expectation of change.

                But again, I get where you're going. I just think the thought experiment is flawed as there's no real reason to expect anything to change.

                My coin toss example, however, is flawed, as well. If one knew everything, literally *everthing*, they'd know how the coin toss would turn out. But the individual would be exerting their free will by giving themself to random chance.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                OK, I'll give you that. Let's change it to a time traveler that can travel back in time, position themselves outside our atmosphere...and just watch what i happening on Earth.

                Although I get your point, you are concentrating on the wrong thing in my story.

                And...I do the same thing. Listen to a story or watch a movie...and see cracks, inconsistencies, and impossible connections made....and it takes me away from the point of the story.
                You go back to the same point and place and observe people going about there business and someone in your peripheral vision you had never fully observed speeds up a little in there walking gait on your 432nd visit. Free will has been exercised. You would need highly sophisticated recording equipment to record and compare each visit and doing a time stamped overlay to be sure no deviation of speed of movement and position has occurred. Not something you could do with your eyes alone.

                Even then,although your start position is the same, how you move from there is open to free will because you are doing multiple visits.This could give distorted data

                You would have no idea what each person was thinking about at the time either.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  You go back to the same point and place and observe people going about there business and someone in your peripheral vision you had never fully observed speeds up a little in there walking gait on your 432nd visit. Free will has been exercised. .
                  That might be evidence of multiple time lines in the past, but not of free will.

                  My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe.

                  I just don't think that's possible. Everything we do and think is the result of what has happened before, our genetic make up, our brain synapses......

                  I cannot do anything outside my nature, cannot understand anything beyond my capacity.

                  We are trapped by our experience, our genetic make up, our brain structure.
                  I've never read anything convincing that says anything different.

                  But it sure feels like free will. It feels like we have a mind independent from our brain.

                  Sam Harris (the neuro-scientist) wrote a convincing book on Free Will. He arrived at that conclusion through a different logic chain than I did, but it's a short convincing book on the subject.
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                  • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    I ccannot understand anything beyond my capacity.
                    So, Pick-Up Sticks is a real challenge?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                      Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

                      So, Pick-Up Sticks is a real challenge?
                      Claude prefers Pick-Up Shish Kabobs.
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                      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                        Claude prefers Pick-Up Shish Kabobs.
                        But he craves, Pick-Up Poop. :-)
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    That might be evidence of multiple time lines in the past, but not of free will.

                    My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe.

                    I just don't think that's possible. Everything we do and think is the result of what has happened before, our genetic make up, our brain synapses......

                    I cannot do anything outside my nature, cannot understand anything beyond my capacity.

                    We are trapped by our experience, our genetic make up, our brain structure.
                    I've never read anything convincing that says anything different.

                    But it sure feels like free will. It feels like we have a mind independent from our brain.

                    Sam Harris (the neuro-scientist) wrote a convincing book on Free Will. He arrived at that conclusion through a different logic chain than I did, but it's a short convincing book on the subject.
                    If there are multiple time lines, I mean infinite variations being played out simultaneously, then thats all free will is. It's not free will at all from the perspective of say you or me in this line, but only in the general scheme of things. Where you turn right, then in another time line you turn left, they are self contained and set in each.

                    You may give a deep sigh but if you did observe slight variations you could as you say still diguard free will as you perceive it, but that would mean that they are interfering with each other, intersecting,merging and that would mean a mix up of memories, decisions and that would show up physically in changes that not everybody would agree with.One cannot cancel the other out.

                    Opp's, that's a perfect description of the "alleged" Mandela Effect
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      You may give a deep sigh but if you did observe slight variations you could as you say still diguard free will as you perceive it, but that would mean that they are interfering with each other, intersecting,merging and that would mean a mix up of memories, decisions and that would show up physically in changes that not everybody would agree with.One cannot cancel the other out.
                      No. What you have done is twist the meaning of free will, and make up a scenario where time lines would mix with each other...to support your "Mandela effect" idea.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        No. What you have done is twist the meaning of free will, and make up a scenario where time lines would mix with each other...to support your "Mandela effect" idea.
                        Your premise is that there is only one timeline and that free will does not exist because observing it repeatedly shows no variation.

                        In this timeline you are correct.The only thing you cannot observe is what people are thinking.

                        That is 100 percent your perception of what free will is and that now it cannot exist because your excursions and observations conclude that.

                        I am not disagreeing with the above.

                        However, you are currently at a disadvantage. You cannot perform these tasks to reach that conclusion. I then have more evidence than you to support my premise of multiple ( indeed, infinite) timelines which play out infinite variations, simultaneously of free will decision making. Your perception of free will is possibly just not what you thought it was.

                        First let's level the playing field. "Neither of us have any scientific evidence to support our theories"

                        I however, I can pitch several examples as evidence to support mine in a different way. Let's pick my favourite, "Home Depot" In 2015 I noticed it had gained a "The" prefix and made comment that it was a strange marketing ploy. In 2017 I learned about the ME and that this had also been noticed by thousands and thousands of other people.

                        Looking back at their history page there is a photo, probably from around 1980 where the "The Home Depot" sign is shown above the store. "The" being incorporated into the logo, top left. The store had been called "The Home Depot" since 1977. The sign was very modern in design..

                        So I look online and find several much younger photo's of store signs where it shows No "The" prefix at all, (plenty of space for it though) yet, just about all of them now do. The photo's were found completely at random. Now my memory comes into play. "Home Depot" is also what I remember, never "The Home Depot" Those few pictures I found totally familiar.

                        And, they exist, but they should not have ever existed.

                        Another thing about the above and in many other examples in just about all cases, how accepting my brain is to the new name, the new information. Totally natural to go on with it the new way. Interesting that. I have to remind myself that "No" it never was that way. I'm 100% sure.

                        It's like a merging of two completely different sets of memories. A duality where either is now acceptable Of course you would say, that then makes it easier to function.

                        Two or more timelines intersecting or merging are entirely consistent with my experience. The duality of memory, the mostly inconsequential changes, the lack of total obliteration of one memory over the other and physical evidence like photographs. One timeline not being able to overwrite the other completely, the fact that the resultant reality can go both ways. Hence the variation in the memories.

                        Tiny bits of variation in free will and consequently, decision making would lead to these things happening if they became mixed up.

                        Anyway, just another attempt by me to rationalize what I have experienced.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          Your premise is that there is only one timeline and that free will does not exist because observing it repeatedly shows no variation..
                          No. I used that as a preamble to set up the idea of traveling from our future to our present...as I completely explained to Riffle a few posts ago. My assumption is that there is only one time line. In other words, I have no reason to think otherwise...and the idea of multiple time lines being so similar that they would still arrive at an identical present moment is absurd.


                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          That is 100 percent your perception of what free will is and that now it cannot exist because your excursions and observations conclude that. .
                          No. Like I said a couple of posts ago;
                          "My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe."

                          You have tried to change my definition of free will, because you want it to leave open the idea of multiple past time lines...thinking this may make your "Mandela effect" idea more palatable.
                          What I just said to Odahh hopefully clarified it a little more.


                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          Your perception of free will is possibly just not what you thought it was..
                          That sentence makes no sense. The definition of "Perception" is exactly "what you thought it was".


                          Added later; The reason I posted this idea at all was to see if someone could poke a hole in it, even accidentally.
                          The closest anyone came (so far) is when Riffle said that this moment may be the real edge of time, and there is no future...meaning it doesn't already exist.

                          But the truth is, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist (meaning a person from the future couldn't come back here...because the future hasn't happened yet...in any way)...we still are just the result of everything that has happened in the past, and our actions and thoughts are 100% predictable forever...if we have enough information.

                          And because of that idea, I think free will is an illusion. It may seem like I'm trying to convince you (or anyone ) of this, but I'm really checking my own reasoning. I also have a small group of thinking people I spend an hour or two with on the phone every month. And I'll propose this idea to them as well.

                          For whatever reason, there are two ideas that I've found impossible to communicate effectively;
                          1) It is impossible to "upload" your consciousness to a computer". You may be able to copy it completely, but not move it around.
                          2) Everything we do is 100% predictable, and we are slaves to our nature. We are powerless to change anything we are ever going to do, because it will be the result of an unchangeable past.

                          Although reading Free Will by Sam Harris is a pretty well laid out argument for the idea.


                          As an example, I was talking with my wife's nephew about how the brain works, and he proposed that we have free will, and the "power of choice" was given to us by a deity.

                          I said "So...you are in complete control of your actions?"

                          He said "Yes".

                          I said "Do you love your children?"

                          He said "Of course"

                          I said "If you can really control your thoughts, stop loving one of your kids for the next 5 minutes. No need to say anything, or let on how you think...just stop loving one of your kids. At the end of five minutes, go back to normal".

                          He said "That's ridiculous"

                          I said, "No. It's impossible. You cannot control what you think or feel, because your brain is creating those thoughts and feelings, before you are aware of them. You are a slave to your genetics, upbringing, brain structure, hormones, and aptitudes. Even that tinge of anger you are feeling right now...you can't tun it off. you can't change it. It's just part of what you are...your process of living".

                          I think this is when he said "So...we are all puppets except you?"

                          And I said "No. we are all puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings." (I think I've told this story before, my memory fades with age)
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                          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            You cannot control what you think or feel, because your brain is creating those thoughts and feelings, before you are aware of them. You are a slave to your genetics, upbringing, brain structure, hormones, and aptitudes. Even that tinge of anger you are feeling right now...you can't tun it off. you can't change it. It's just part of what you are...your process of living".
                            You're using the terms "you" and "your" as thought they're part of a separate entity. If the mind is a construct of the human brain and doesn't exist outside of that, the concept of "self" is illusionary. In which case, free will is simply the term we give to the perceived choices we make.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                              You're using the terms "you" and "your" as thought they're part of a separate entity. If the mind is a construct of the human brain and doesn't exist outside of that, the concept of "self" is illusionary. In which case, free will is simply the term we give to the perceived choices we make.
                              It's just a faster way of saying "the brain inside the head". But it would be more accurate to say that my thought is that we are a "self" that is composed of everything we are, including our brain. But there is nothing outside of that.
                              The thing we call "ourself" (in my view) is just what develops as we mature. And the "self" is just the process our brains go through, apart from everyone else. It's the "apartness from everyone else" that makes the idea of "self" accurate (in my opinion). So when I say "My brain"..."My" simply means the brain inside the body that makes up "Me.". In a similar way, the idea of consciousness or self awareness doesn't mean we have free will.

                              At least, that how I think so far.

                              I realize you aren't agreeing with me, just pointing out the semantics. But you have stated part of what I've been trying to communicate.

                              I think part of my mistake is combining the idea of a single time line that already exists forever..and the idea of free will being an illusion. Although they can connect, they are two separate ideas.

                              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                              In which case, free will is simply the term we give to the perceived choices we make.
                              Yes. But the vast majority of people think of free will as something outside of that. It's not the brain that is thinking..it's them. Most people think that they are something outside the brain. It's a highly accepted perspective.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                I realize you aren't agreeing with me, just pointing out the semantics.
                                I disagree that I'm not agreeing with you.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                                  I disagree that I'm not agreeing with you.
                                  Don't toy with my emotions.
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                                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                  My cat gives me lap dances.
                                  Your cat jumps on your lap, and digs in the claws, at least that is the subliminal message l have been sending your cat when he goes online, and plots the overthrow of the free world.

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                                  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                                    Your cat jumps on your lap, and digs in the claws, at least that is the subliminal message l have been sending your cat when he goes online, and plots the overthrow of the free world.


                                    You spend your time thinking about lap dancing on Claude's lap? No, no, no that is not what I meant. To each his own I guess.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

                                      You spend your time thinking about lap dancing on Claude's lap? No, no, no that is not what I meant. To each his own I guess.
                                      No, l think about where can l get the Origin book from, the end is nigh, (more for a laugh) kittens and string, but Claude's lap,.......Never!


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                                      • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                                        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                                        No, l think about where can l get the Origin book from, the end is nigh, (more for a laugh) kittens and string, but Claude's lap,.......Never!


                                        LOL, smile
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                              • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                I think part of my mistake is combining the idea of a single time line that already exists forever..and the idea of free will being an illusion. Although they can connect, they are two separate ideas.

                                .
                                Well ..here is the mistake from where i view this .. the online thing you can infer by there everything on the timeline that happened in the past ..happening the same way over and over .. no matter how many times it gets observed ..is there is only one timeline stretching into the past ..with only one set of observable events ..so there is only one past

                                nothing about free will .. or predetermined future .. or that you can predict the future with enough information.. because there are plenty of thing that have never happened before that may happen .. based on the trend of technology advancement ..

                                so the only thing that everything happening over and over the same way in the past proves .. is everything in the past happened a certain way..

                                we have never had as much data as we do now .. but it the experts seem to be having a harder and harder time predicting anything . a few months into the future .so many random variables at play in the world today..

                                you can list probabilities of what may happen .. but hard to predict actually events and when they will happen ..

                                I don't believe in either traditional free will or predestination ..the choices i make today are limited in number and pretty easy to predict ..but i can use the increasing amount of information.. to influence the choices i will have to make in a month a year or far into the future..or keep doing what i have done in the past and stay with the same number of choices ..for the next 10 20 or 30 years..

                                I believe there is nothing in control but a large number of factors that influence choices as time goes on ...we can work to create a better future for ourselves .. or ride along with the future created by multiple influences.


                                i had posted the post then found the you tube video.. but he explains this a hell of a lot better than i can
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                                  we have never had as much data as we do now .. but it the experts seem to be having a harder and harder time predicting anything . a few months into the future .so many random variables at play in the world today..

                                  you can list probabilities of what may happen .. but hard to predict actually events and when they will happen ..

                                  I don't believe in either traditional free will or predestination ..the choices i make today are limited in number and pretty easy to predict
                                  First. Pretty well thought out.

                                  Like I just posted to Kurt, I'm not proposing that it's possible for us to know enough to predict human behaviors out to centuries. But, in the impossible event that we could know the position of every atomic particle, it's direction and velocity....we could accurately predict the actions of everything in the universe until the end of time.

                                  In other words, as our galaxy was forming...13 billion years ago...if we knew the position of every atomic particle in the universe, right then...and the direction and velocity of each particle, we could...with 100% accuracy, predict that I would be writing these words right now.,

                                  Again, such knowledge is impossible. But the idea is that no matter how complex the system, with enough information, the processes are known ahead of their occurrence.

                                  About the clip of Peterson; I'm a huge Jordan Peterson fan, and I have seen this clip a few times. Although I agree with everything he said, it's not that he disagrees with Sam Harris, (who I agree with), it's that he is talking about a slightly different subject.

                                  If you are really interested, Harris' book Free Will will answer any questions you might have. And the truth is, it would take a book to explain it properly. Harris came to his conclusions by a different route than I did, but his reasoning is bulletproof. I studied human behavior...(closer to Peterson), and Harris studied brain activity.

                                  I think the reason Harris and Peterson seem to disagree is that Harris is a brain pathologist and Peterson is a clinical psychologist, professor and religious scholar.

                                  I've listened to several of their debates. The problem is that they are talking past each other slightly. The more often they debate, the more they agree......because they were just talking about two slightly different subjects.

                                  By the way, I don't think any of this is useful information.....it's just interesting.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                    [QUOTE=Claude Whitacre;11452539


                                    I've listened to several of their debates. The problem is that they are talking past each other slightly. The more often they debate, the more they agree......because they were just talking about two slightly different subjects.

                                    By the way, I don't think any of this is useful information.....it's just interesting.[/QUOTE]

                                    At 40 it matters to me ..because i went through hell because in the past i didn't have the right or close to enough information to understand what was happening or make any worthwhile long term predicts .. that i could then make adjustments ..to avoid the real nasty stuff ..

                                    having enough information to make predictions or have a pretty good idea of where you may end up on the path you are on ..and i am very much aware of my limited ability to make good choice out of the limited choices in front.. This is less just interest.. and more stuff i practice .. and believe .. i am very well aware of the limits of free will ..
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            No. I used that as a preamble to set up the idea of traveling from our future to our present...as I completely explained to Riffle a few posts ago. My assumption is that there is only one time line. In other words, I have no reason to think otherwise...and the idea of multiple time lines being so similar that they would still arrive at an identical present moment is absurd.




                            No. Like I said a couple of posts ago;
                            "My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe."

                            You have tried to change my definition of free will, because you want it to leave open the idea of multiple past time lines...thinking this may make your "Mandela effect" idea more palatable.
                            What I just said to Odahh hopefully clarified it a little more.




                            That sentence makes no sense. The definition of "Perception" is exactly "what you thought it was".


                            Added later; The reason I posted this idea at all was to see if someone could poke a hole in it, even accidentally.
                            The closest anyone came (so far) is when Riffle said that this moment may be the real edge of time, and there is no future...meaning it doesn't already exist.

                            But the truth is, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist (meaning a person from the future couldn't come back here...because the future hasn't happened yet...in any way)...we still are just the result of everything that has happened in the past, and our actions and thoughts are 100% predictable forever...if we have enough information.

                            And because of that idea, I think free will is an illusion. It may seem like I'm trying to convince you (or anyone ) of this, but I'm really checking my own reasoning. I also have a small group of thinking people I spend an hour or two with on the phone every month. And I'll propose this idea to them as well.

                            For whatever reason, there are two ideas that I've found impossible to communicate effectively;
                            1) It is impossible to "upload" your consciousness to a computer". You may be able to copy it completely, but not move it around.
                            2) Everything we do is 100% predictable, and we are slaves to our nature. We are powerless to change anything we are ever going to do, because it will be the result of an unchangeable past.

                            Although reading Free Will by Sam Harris is a pretty well laid out argument for the idea.


                            As an example, I was talking with my wife's nephew about how the brain works, and he proposed that we have free will, and the "power of choice" was given to us by a deity.

                            I said "So...you are in complete control of your actions?"

                            He said "Yes".

                            I said "Do you love your children?"

                            He said "Of course"

                            I said "If you can really control your thoughts, stop loving one of your kids for the next 5 minutes. No need to say anything, or let on how you think...just stop loving one of your kids. At the end of five minutes, go back to normal".

                            He said "That's ridiculous"

                            I said, "No. It's impossible. You cannot control what you think or feel, because your brain is creating those thoughts and feelings, before you are aware of them. You are a slave to your genetics, upbringing, brain structure, hormones, and aptitudes. Even that tinge of anger you are feeling right now...you can't tun it off. you can't change it. It's just part of what you are...your process of living".

                            I think this is when he said "So...we are all puppets except you?"

                            And I said "No. we are all puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings." (I think I've told this story before, my memory fades with age)
                            The issue I have with this is that to have all this info would take time to collect and process, which would make it obsolete by the time it was acted on because too many variables would have changed in the meantime. The exception would be if the person/entity processing and acting on the info wasn't bound by time and was omnipresent. In this case, time wouldn't exist.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                              The issue I have with this is that to have all this info would take time to collect and process, which would make it obsolete by the time it was acted on because too many variables would have changed in the meantime. The exception would be if the person/entity processing and acting on the info wasn't bound by time and was omnipresent. In this case, time wouldn't exist.
                              While what you say is true, it's not the point.

                              The point is that our actions are 100% predictable, which means we cannot go outside our "design".

                              I wasn't suggesting that someone could actually gather enough information to predict every human event for the next million years. It would even be impossible to gather enough information to accurately predict what we would do tomorrow. Yes, to actually do this, you would have to be an all powerful god. I'm not sue why that would mean time wouldn't exist.

                              This whole thing started with me, years ago, after I had been selling the same thing for about 20 years. Same presentation. I saw patterns of behaviors that were startlingly consistent. Behavior, responses to stimulus, answers to questions....it all started to repeat, and the actions became very predictable.

                              I remember instances when I would have a new salesperson with me, and if the prospect had to leave the room for a moment, I'd tell the new guy what the person was going to say when they came back. And that's what they would say. It scared one new guy so much he quit.

                              It only worked because I had given the same presentation...the same words, thousands of times.

                              I started to wonder if we were just responding without thought. If it was robotic. If we were stuck thinking a certain way.

                              Sometimes, if I knew hey weren't going to buy from me, I'd say something to test their reaction...just to see if they would still respond within a certain parameter. Yup.

                              In fact, my presentation was structured so it was very difficult to give a straight "No" at the end. And the last several decades, I only remember one person (a woman teacher) just saying "No" at the end. Everyone else was restricted by their cultural norms, their need to maintain rapport.

                              I would even say "You can just say No, if you like"...and they couldn't.

                              Humans.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                While what you say is true, it's not the point.

                                The point is that our actions are 100% predictable, which means we cannot go outside our "design".

                                I wasn't suggesting that someone could actually gather enough information to predict every human event for the next million years. It would even be impossible to gather enough information to accurately predict what we would do tomorrow. Yes, to actually do this, you would have to be an all powerful god. I'm not sue why that would mean time wouldn't exist.

                                This whole thing started with me, years ago, after I had been selling the same thing for about 20 years. Same presentation. I saw patterns of behaviors that were startlingly consistent. Behavior, responses to stimulus, answers to questions....it all started to repeat, and the actions became very predictable.

                                I remember instances when I would have a new salesperson with me, and if the prospect had to leave the room for a moment, I'd tell the new guy what the person was going to say when they came back. And that's what they would say. It scared one new guy so much he quit.

                                It only worked because I had given the same presentation...the same words, thousands of times.

                                I started to wonder if we were just responding without thought. If it was robotic. If we were stuck thinking a certain way.

                                Sometimes, if I knew hey weren't going to buy from me, I'd say something to test their reaction...just to see if they would still respond within a certain parameter. Yup.

                                In fact, my presentation was structured so it was very difficult to give a straight "No" at the end. And the last several decades, I only remember one person (a woman teacher) just saying "No" at the end. Everyone else was restricted by their cultural norms, their need to maintain rapport.

                                I would even say "You can just say No, if you like"...and they couldn't.

                                Humans.
                                It's the ENTIRE point. You're stating an impossible situation then asking what would happen if it were real.

                                If perpetual motion machines were real we could power the entire planet with zero energy.

                                If Superman was real he'd win every event at the Olympics.

                                Because some (or even many) people react in the same way with the same stimulus doesn't mean everything or everyone is 100% predictable.

                                You need to research Bayes' Theorem on probability. It's used by a lot of businesses including casinos and insurance companies.
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                  It's the ENTIRE point. You're stating an impossible situation then asking what would happen if it were real.

                                  If perpetual motion machines were real we could power the entire planet with zero energy.

                                  If Superman was real he'd win every event at the Olympics.
                                  No. These are nonsensical thoughts. Mine is more along the lines of "If you give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough...I could move the world". A true statement, even though impossible to actualize. More a principle that a practical example.


                                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                  Because some (or even many) people react in the same way with the same stimulus doesn't mean everything or everyone is 100% predictable.
                                  Bayes' Theorem has to do with using a far more limited amount of information. Limited enough to be practical and useful.

                                  It's a similar idea, but not the same.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                    Limited enough to be practical and useful.
                                    That's something you never have to worry about, limited, unlimited, or otherwise.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                      That's something you never have to worry about, limited, unlimited, or otherwise.
                                      i just Googled you name. There is actually an accomplished young man named Dan Riffle.
                                      It's obviously not you, as he is handsome, articulate, and straight.

                                      Your signature says "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."

                                      It should say "Always remember, I'm a Eunuch,just like all my friends"
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                                      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        It should say "Always remember, I'm a Eunuch,just like all my friends"
                                        Riffle has friends?
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                                          Riffle has friends?
                                          Riffle doesn't even have any imaginary friends. They have all abandoned him. I expanded the definition of Friends (for the sake of Riffle's self esteem) to include everyone who shudders at his touch, and throws up at seeing his shadow....

                                          His stubby little shadow.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                            Riffle doesn't even have any imaginary friends. They have all abandoned him. I expanded the definition of Friends (for the sake of Riffle's self esteem) to include everyone who shudders at his touch, and throws up at seeing his shadow....

                                            His stubby little shadow.
                                            So He has some friends, Chuck & Rolf
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                    No. These are nonsensical thoughts. Mine is more along the lines of "If you give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough...I could move the world". A true statement, even though impossible to actualize. More a principle that a practical example.



                                    Bayes' Theorem has to do with using a far more limited amount of information. Limited enough to be practical and useful.

                                    It's a similar idea, but not the same.
                                    Non sequitur. Yes, the lever example is possible. Your example above isn't and is just as nonsensical as Superman.

                                    Why bother making posts if you can predict what we'll do and say?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                      Non sequitur. Yes, the lever example is possible. Your example above isn't and is just as nonsensical as Superman.

                                      Why bother making posts if you can predict what we'll do and say?
                                      I suspect that you really understand perfectly what I've been saying, probably agree with most of it...and you're just poking me with a stick to watch me jump.

                                      And my guess is that these ideas have occurred to you as well.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        I suspect that you really understand perfectly what I've been saying, probably agree with most of it...and you're just poking me with a stick to watch me jump.

                                        And my guess is that these ideas have occurred to you as well.
                                        Not really. I live in the Colorado mountains, surrounded by National forests and parks. I spend more time thinking about raking the forest floor that surrounds me.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                          Not really. I live in the Colorado mountains, surrounded by National forests and parks. I spend more time thinking about raking the forest floor that surrounds me.
                                          An extreme way to make sure he never finds you but perfectly understandable, especially since he branched out into selling industrial garden Vac's
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                                        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                          I spend more time thinking about raking the forest floor that surrounds me.
                                          It sounds like you derive Pleasure from turning the place into a Paradise.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                          Not really. I live in the Colorado mountains, surrounded by National forests and parks. I spend more time thinking about raking the forest floor that surrounds me.
                                          OK...that there was damn funny.

                                          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                                          It sounds like you derive Pleasure from turning the place into a Paradise.
                                          I think it was a Freudian slip on his part. Pleasure is Paradise to him.

                                          At least we have a fire wall against the invading hoards of evil criminals.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                            I think it was a Freudian slip on his part. Pleasure is Paradise to him.
                                            Stephen Colbert explained it best.

                                            "Pleasure, is her name. Paradise, is the name of the strip club where she works."
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                    No. These are nonsensical thoughts. Mine is more along the lines of "If you give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough...I could move the world". A true statement, even though impossible to actualize. More a principle that a practical example.

                                    The hypothesis rides upon the assumption that the situation is real, so the hypothesis itself is just as unrealistic as the imagined situation, therefore it's a paradox which cannot render a realistic conclusion...


                                    Since that is the case, we could continue to manufacture any notion to fit the agenda.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    That might be evidence of multiple time lines in the past, but not of free will.

                    My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe.

                    I just don't think that's possible. Everything we do and think is the result of what has happened before, our genetic make up, our brain synapses......

                    I cannot do anything outside my nature, cannot understand anything beyond my capacity.

                    We are trapped by our experience, our genetic make up, our brain structure.
                    I've never read anything convincing that says anything different.

                    But it sure feels like free will. It feels like we have a mind independent from our brain.

                    Sam Harris (the neuro-scientist) wrote a convincing book on Free Will. He arrived at that conclusion through a different logic chain than I did, but it's a short convincing book on the subject.
                    i deleted the post i had up ..as i did a little more study .. i have a question .. do you believe there is an outside force predetermining everything you will do or do do .. and basically using you as a flesh puppet .. so no matter what you think ..nothing you have done .. has been because you chose it ..some outside force has always been in control .

                    now i already believe you do not believe that i could be wrong ...

                    now tradition free will.. that we have that control over our action ..

                    now what if there is no force in control..but multiple forces and factors always colliding to effect the choices we make and the choice we can make.. and free will is just describing the stay humans are in where nothing is in control ..and always in a state between chaos and order ..

                    i can breath and tell my body which cell to bring the oxygen to and which not .. i can eat and predetermine where the vitamin minerals and sugers go in my body .. i can't control my thoughts or chose what i will thing about .. i can't control when i get hungry ..or that i need sleep ..or need to drink water .. but there is no other source of control..but multiple sources of influence ..
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                      i deleted the post i had up ..as i did a little more study .. i have a question .. do you believe there is an outside force predetermining everything you will do or do do .. and basically using you as a flesh puppet .. so no matter what you think ..nothing you have done .. has been because you chose it ..some outside force has always been in control .

                      now i already believe you do not believe that i could be wrong ...
                      No. I have no reason to believe there is a conscious outside force controlling anything.

                      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                      now tradition free will.. that we have that control over our action ..

                      now what if there is no force in control..but multiple forces and factors always colliding to effect the choices we make and the choice we can make..
                      See below.

                      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                      i can breath and tell my body which cell to bring the oxygen to and which not .. i can eat and predetermine where the vitamin minerals and sugers go in my body .. i can't control my thoughts or chose what i will thing about .. i can't control when i get hungry ..or that i need sleep ..or need to drink water .. but there is no other source of control..but multiple sources of influence ..
                      Yes. The thing that controls everything we do and say and think is...everything that has ever happened in the universe up until this moment. Every thought we have is determined by everything that has happened before. It is inescapable.

                      Another way of saying it is....everything that has happened in the past is the direct cause of everything that happens in the future. No outside agency is controlling anything we think or do. But everything we think or do is completely predictable, with enough information.

                      At least that is the conclusion of this little introspection of mine. Of course, it would have been impossible for me to think any other way.
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                      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        I have no reason to believe there is a conscious outside force controlling anything.
                        I control the horizontal. I control the vertical.

                        Now, If I could just gain some control over my bowel movements, that would be a beautiful thing. :-(.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


            There is a strong physics/astronomical theory that we could observe our own future if we observed the earth from far enough away, and could travel back to Earth faster than light. I may have messed up this idea, but when I watched it explained on the last Cosmos (I think) it sounded very convincing.
            Its not. Its based on a TV movie idea of time travel. It ignores a pretty difficult problem.. If you travel faster than the speed of light you start to move backward in time - you with it. You would become the real life example of Benjamin button and your ship would arrive with no one on board.

            In the movies they isolate the person travelling from the time travel effect (or else the movie would suck). Theres no compelling reason to.

            incidentally your whole premise has already been proven impossible

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheele...ice_experiment

            The delayed choice experiments indicate that measurements even well after an event can affect the event in the past. So just observing the past would as far as we now know affect some change in the events particularly if while observing you saw something the participants didn't see. - Even what was behind them in one second.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        .
        Look up Laplace's Demon from a difference source if it makes you feel better. It may not be interesting to you (or to anyone else) but I find it compelling.
        And while you're at it, be sure to check out the Lap Dance Demon special from Babs, Wooster's most experienced daytime stripper with over 78 years experience, for just a nickel and a handful of prunes.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        That wasn't my argument. That was setting up my argument that came later. Here;

        "Think about this...if a person in 1,000 years had a time machine and they could observe an incident or event somewhere on Earth in their past...let's say today...our present, their past....would any thing we do today change? No. Remember, we are just part of their past. They have already seen what happened today, tomorrow, the next day. It's just that we have not.

        So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts? "


        In other words, if a person from 1,000 years in the future knew exactly what was going to happen a year from now...every event, every conversation, every reaction, every word...in their exact order....

        And it's going to happen exactly the same way no matter how many times he visits his past (our future), how can we have free will...everything is going to happen one way, as it always has in the past. We simply aren't aware of our future, because we haven't experienced it yet. So to us, it's not certain, it can change. we can change it.

        But we were always going to make the decisions we will make....one track...one history...even when seeing our near future...from the far future.


        It may not technically be an argument against free will (although I find it pretty conclusive), but it's an argument that we are always going to behave...in every way...in a certain way, without change, without fail. And that way is completely predictable, if we have enough information.

        Look up Laplace's Demon from a difference source if it makes you feel better. It may not be interesting to you (or to anyone else) but I find it compelling.
        This is an issue with the premise. If a time traveler went back in time multiple times, the past wouldn't be exactly the same. The past would have been visited by a person of different times.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts? "[/I]

        In other words, if a person from 1,000 years in the future knew exactly what was going to happen a year from now...every event, every conversation, every reaction, every word...in their exact order....

        And it's going to happen exactly the same way no matter how many times he visits his past (our future), how can we have free will...everything is going to happen one way, as it always has in the past. We simply aren't aware of our future, because we haven't experienced it yet. So to us, it's not certain, it can change. we can change it.

        But we were always going to make the decisions we will make....one track...one history...even when seeing our near future...from the far future.

        It may not technically be an argument against free will (although I find it pretty conclusive),
        I haven't read the entire thread.. this may have been brought up already.. but you premise is flawed. Free will would be to the point of an action - or lack of.. and once that moment is gone.. so is free will. The action or lack of, is then cemented into "history" or your past. No matter how many times you read a book.. the words will remain the same for of all of time.

        The words spoken by Abraham Lincoln Nov 19 1863, all 10 sentences all 272 words will remain the same 10 sentences and 272 words for all of time. ( Gettysburg Address for those wondering )

        FREE WILL is not a concept for what HAS happened.. but what WILL happen.

        It is free will to go back and visit a single point in time 1000 times... It WAS free will that allowed Abraham Lincoln to speak those 10 sentences 272 words on Nov 19 1863.

        Free will can not alter what HAS happened.. but it CAN impact what WILL happen.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          I haven't read the entire thread.. this may have been brought up already.. but you premise is flawed. Free will would be to the point of an action - or lack of.. and once that moment is gone.. so is free will. The action or lack of, is then cemented into "history" or your past. No matter how many times you read a book.. the words will remain the same for of all of time.

          The words spoken by Abraham Lincoln Nov 19 1863, all 10 sentences all 272 words will remain the same 10 sentences and 272 words for all of time. ( Gettysburg Address for those wondering )

          FREE WILL is not a concept for what HAS happened.. but what WILL happen.

          It is free will to go back and visit a single point in time 1000 times... It WAS free will that allowed Abraham Lincoln to speak those 10 sentences 272 words on Nov 19 1863.

          Free will can not alter what HAS happened.. but it CAN impact what WILL happen.
          I think I addressed that, but it's still a great point. But thoughts are actions. Even intentions are physical neural signals in our brain. I suspect your definition of free will is different from mine. Again, I recommend FREE WILL by Sam Harris, if anyone is really interested in the subject. He arrived at his conclusion by a different logic chain than I did, but it's a very clear read.


          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          So Deadpool going back in time to kill himself and then go back even further to kill himself before Green Hornet, isn't possible?
          Green Lantern.

          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          So killing ones self would be out of the question.
          I'm going to answer as if it were a serious point (it may or may not be. I can't hear your voice)

          Yes, it would be impossible for you to go back in time and effect anything that could change the present. Not because it would create a paradox (there are no paradoxes)...but because whatever you would do in the past has already happened, and is already part of the past.

          In fact, if anyone ever went into the past (for any reason), it would prove that our futures are predestined....because we knew in the past, for certain, that someone in our future would travel into our/their past. And they would have a memory of everything happening up until they made the trip.


          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          FREE WILL is not a concept for what HAS happened.. but what WILL happen.

          It is free will to go back and visit a single point in time 1000 times... It WAS free will that allowed Abraham Lincoln to speak those 10 sentences 272 words on Nov 19 1863.

          Free will can not alter what HAS happened.. but it CAN impact what WILL happen.
          My mistake in my first post was mentioning traveling to the past. I was using it as an example to set up another argument. It mixed up Time Travel and Free Will as though they are related. They aren't.

          I posted this earlier.
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          That might be evidence of multiple time lines in the past, but not of free will.

          My definition of free will is that we do something (or think something) outside of our physical causes, our past, our environment, brain chemistry, and the actions of the physical universe.

          I just don't think that's possible. Everything we do and think is the result of what has happened before, our genetic make up, our brain synapses......

          I cannot do anything outside my nature, cannot understand anything beyond my capacity.

          We are trapped by our experience, our genetic make up, our brain structure.
          I've never read anything convincing that says anything different.

          But it sure feels like free will. It feels like we have a mind independent from our brain.

          Sam Harris (the neuro-scientist) wrote a convincing book on Free Will. He arrived at that conclusion through a different logic chain than I did, but it's a short convincing book on the subject.
          In other words, our thoughts and actions are completely predictable. And if everything we do, say, or think is completely predictable....how do we have free will?

          Here's a video of Sam Harris explaining it pretty clearly. If you're interested, it's worth a view.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            I think I addressed that, but it's still a great point. But thoughts are actions. Even intentions are physical neural signals in our brain. I suspect your definition of free will is different from mine. Again, I recommend FREE WILL by Sam Harris, if anyone is really interested in the subject. He arrived at his conclusion by a different logic chain than I did, but it's a very clear read.




            Green Lantern.



            I'm going to answer as if it were a serious point (it may or may not be. I can't hear your voice)

            Yes, it would be impossible for you to go back in time and effect anything that could change the present. Not because it would create a paradox (there are no paradoxes)...but because whatever you would do in the past has already happened, and is already part of the past.

            In fact, if anyone ever went into the past (for any reason), it would prove that our futures are predestined....because we knew in the past, for certain, that someone in our future would travel into our/their past. And they would have a memory of everything happening up until they made the trip.




            My mistake in my first post was mentioning traveling to the past. I was using it as an example to set up another argument. It mixed up Time Travel and Free Will as though they are related. They aren't.

            I posted this earlier.


            In other words, our thoughts and actions are completely predictable. And if everything we do, say, or think is completely predictable....how do we have free will?
            So you go back into the past 1000 times and observe events unfolding in exactly the same way. Before your 10001th visit, I exercise free will to suggest to you a way that you can make yourself visible and interactive. You take it on-board and do that and it works. You have a gun and fire a shot, killing Henry Ford. You come back, no Ford Motor car plants ever existed. We of course would have no knowledge of it existing or disappearing, would you?

            You go again and fire the gun, killing some other notable figure and the same thing happened.

            Interesting, but I suppose all the visits to the past would be predetermined, my suggestion of how to become interactive, predetermined, as would be your actions.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              So you go back into the past 1000 times and observe events unfolding in exactly the same way. Before your 10001th visit, I exercise free will to suggest to you a way that you can make yourself visible and interactive. You take it on-board and do that and it works. You have a gun and fire a shot, killing Henry Ford. You come back, no Ford Motor car plants ever existed. We of course would have no knowledge of it existing or disappearing, would you?
              Either;
              1) I explained it incorrectly.
              2) You don't understand what I explained correctly.
              3) You're pulling my leg. Genuinely, I hope that's the case.

              Please...watch the Sam Harris video, It will explain, in nauseating detail, what I have been trying to say...but not getting across.
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Please...watch the Sam Harris video, It will explain, in nauseating detail, what I have been trying to say...but not getting across.
                Is there a shorter version? Im interested but probably not an hour and eighteen minutes interested.... that's way to long to not have a dose of Music!

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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  Is there a shorter version? Im interested but probably not an hour and eighteen minutes interested.... that's way to long to not have a dose of Music!
                  Maybe this one. But I really would recommend the first video.

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                  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Maybe this one. But I really would recommend the first video.
                    Where I find a gap... right at 4:50 and more importantly 5:20 "No one, no one has ever found a way to describing how physical processess could occur, it would make sense of this claim."

                    the earth was flat until proven otherwise.. but the reality is the earth was round, even when it was thought to be flat. Truth is what truth is... in the eye of the beholder and in reality itself.

                    We step back a bit in time 100 years 200 years or more and the idea of free will seems very null.. You were born into who you were going to be.. a pretty straight forward path.. you were the son of a black smith... you became a blacksmith. The daughter of an aristocrat... you would become the wife of an aristocrat... the son of a pauper.. you were in turn a pauper. The first son of a king.. you became king.

                    can the argument of circumstance and outside pressures be made? sure they can. but the argument of a slave becoming a king can as well. ( not trying in any way to bring religion into the discussion, it is just a great point of contrast )

                    I am a F I R M believer in your present is a representation of your past... if you were a failure in your past, you will be a failure today. UNLESS you have broken the chain of failed behavior with successful behavior.

                    I go so far as in thinking its not even about a "Mindset" it is more about physically altering your repeated paths. Positive thought DOES NOT create positive action. Positive action alone creates positive action, or the reverse, negative creates negative.

                    You can easily argue one side or the other in this... but the FACT remains.. NEITHER are proven as fact.. hence the discussion.

                    Is the sky blue? sure it is when asking anyone on earth... step away from OUR collective reality and head out into space.. and the sky becomes black. and I ask again.. is the sky blue?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                      Where I find a gap... right at 4:50 and more importantly 5:20 "No one, no one has ever found a way to describing how physical processess could occur, it would make sense of this claim."

                      the earth was flat until proven otherwise.. but the reality is the earth was round, even when it was thought to be flat. Truth is what truth is... in the eye of the beholder and in reality itself.

                      We step back a bit in time 100 years 200 years or more and the idea of free will seems very null.. You were born into who you were going to be.. a pretty straight forward path.. you were the son of a black smith... you became a blacksmith. The daughter of an aristocrat... you would become the wife of an aristocrat... the son of a pauper.. you were in turn a pauper. The first son of a king.. you became king.

                      can the argument of circumstance and outside pressures be made? sure they can. but the argument of a slave becoming a king can as well. ( not trying in any way to bring religion into the discussion, it is just a great point of contrast )

                      I am a F I R M believer in your present is a representation of your past... if you were a failure in your past, you will be a failure today. UNLESS you have broken the chain of failed behavior with successful behavior.

                      I go so far as in thinking its not even about a "Mindset" it is more about physically altering your repeated paths. Positive thought DOES NOT create positive action. Positive action alone creates positive action, or the reverse, negative creates negative.

                      You can easily argue one side or the other in this... but the FACT remains.. NEITHER are proven as fact.. hence the discussion.

                      Is the sky blue? sure it is when asking anyone on earth... step away from OUR collective reality and head out into space.. and the sky becomes black. and I ask again.. is the sky blue?
                      I agree with everything you say, but you are not talking about free will in the same way I am, or Sam Harris is. Harris and I are talking about brain neural pathways and "free will" would be the ability to think outside of the pathways and to think or act in any way differently than our stimulus, past, experiences, and biology dictates.



                      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


                      You can easily argue one side or the other in this... but the FACT remains.. NEITHER are proven as fact.. hence the discussion.
                      There are not two sides. There are multiple views on the subject of free will, and multiple interpretations of free will.

                      It is impossible to prove that we have no free will. But there are paths of reasoning that will give us that conclusion.

                      And every argument I've read or heard that supports the idea of us having free will (or what I consider free will), falls apart pretty quickly. At least, so far.
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                      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        I agree with everything you say, but you are not talking about free will in the same way I am, or Sam Harris is. Harris and I are talking about brain neural pathways and "free will" would be the ability to think outside of the pathways and to think or act in any way differently than our stimulus, past, experiences, and biology dictates.
                        So let me get a bit deeper into this then.. The "Harris" line of thought is drastically flawd.. there are scientific assumtions being made that are without question, just that assumptions.

                        A reflex based chain of synapse vs reaction time is just short of instant. something is thrown at you, you move in a direction to avoid.. blinking.. what have you... as close to instant as its going to get.

                        ASSUMING that the same amount of time from thought process to reaction is the same as reactive non thought reaction is kinda a stretch at best. There is more than some data that suggest thought before action actually induces a hormone response PRIOR to the actual action.. were as a response action is taken first and the hormone introduction is afterwards

                        What value does that have.. and how does one measure that? im not a scientist. but im pretty sure there is an amount of time within the body for this to occur. So scientifically.. the argument of the "gap in time" has just been argued away.

                        Its that gap that is the base of the idea there is no free will.. and the research on that gap Is simply waiting for technology to catch up to the problem and the answer.. BUT there has been the seeds of doubt.. IE the introduction of the hormone element causing/creating that gap.

                        The truth at this point and time is both Free Will and pre destined action are assumptions.. there is not proof in either direction.. there is doubt in either direction.. and honestly BOTH are plausible, and the thought of each is as old as recorded time.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                          What value does that have.. and how does one measure that? im not a scientist. but im pretty sure there is an amount of time within the body for this to occur. So scientifically.. the argument of the "gap in time" has just been argued away.
                          Its that gap that is the base of the idea there is no free will.. .
                          No. It's one part of a much larger...much better..argument. Personally, I didn't mention it because I think it's a red herring in the argument. It shows that thoughts are created before we think them consciously. It describes the process. The idea is sound and has been shown in brain imaging, where a person was asked a question, and we could see the process lighting up the different neural pathways of the brain.In fact, the technician could tell the choice that was going to be made, before the patient knew themselves. Again, this just shows the process, and I'm not sure it's a great argument against free will. But Sam Harris is a real neuro-scientist, and this is his field.

                          This is one of the paths that led Harris to the conclusion that we do not have free will. It isn't the path I took.


                          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                          The truth at this point and time is both Free Will and pre destined action are assumptions.. there is not proof in either direction.. there is doubt in either direction.. and honestly BOTH are plausible, and the thought of each is as old as recorded time.
                          They are both ideas as old as civilization. But until just recently, we didn't have brain imaging to test each idea. There is doubt because of lack of specific knowledge, not because of lack of evidence. Both are plausible. But both are not equally plausible.

                          My idea is that, if you know enough about a persons past, biochemistry, genetics, surroundings, associations....their future thoughts and actions are completely predictable. And if your actions are completely predictable, how can we really have free will?
                          The "it takes time for thoughts to be formed, before you think them" claim is a tested neurological fact. But to me, it's not a very good argument against free will.

                          And to me, "Free will" is acting (or even thinking) outside your brain's neural pathways and capacity.

                          Daniel Dennett has authored a few great books on brain activity and has some good arguments supporting the idea of free will. And Dennett and Harris have debated each other on this subject. To me, when I watch these debates, the problem is that Harris is a neuro scientist and Dennett is a cognitive scientist. Harris knows how the brain works, and Dennett knows how consciousness works.

                          And, I need to say this. The idea of not having free will is counter intuitive. It goes against our experience and sense of self. It's an idea that the brain screams out against.

                          But not having free will doesn't mean we don't make our own decisions. It just means that those decisions are completely predictable, given enough information.
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                          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            No. It's one part of a much larger...much better..argument. Personally, I didn't mention it because I think it's a red herring in the argument. It shows that thoughts are created before we think them consciously. It describes the process. The idea is sound and has been shown in brain imaging, where a person was asked a question, and we could see the process lighting up the different neural pathways of the brain.In fact, the technician could tell the choice that was going to be made, before the patient knew themselves. Again, this just shows the process, and I'm not sure it's a great argument against free will. But Sam Harris is a real neuro-scientist, and this is his field.
                            Again its the gap... between reactive action - giving the answer before the person that "thought" the answer, that is the catch. what exactly is that block of time? The destined path taking over - OR the option of free will?

                            and with that we shall go into my theory.. I believe both co-exist... YES there is a destined path. However there is the option of free will. A thought is made and the GAP is the moment of pause that free will could take place.

                            I am sure you may have picked up over the years.. I am very much into patterns of behavior creating outcomes. I think its pretty simple, negative patterns create negative outcomes, and positive patterns create positive outcomes.

                            Let me ask you this.. how many times have you read about a rich person dying poor and alone? How many articles have you read of lottery winners loosing it all in a matter of years? How many people do you know that get "Great' jobs and loose them? How many people do you know that have mundane jobs and have kept them all their lives?

                            I BELIEVE to a degree human nature is to be mundane. I believe that a prolonged period of consistent mundane action can create greater things. How ever how many people do you know that lived boring 9 to 5 jobs for 40+ years at the point of retirement didn't really need SS.. vs many more of the same that rely on it?

                            Free will in one word is " RISK " vs the steady normal path. Free will is sitting in front of bowls of vanilla and chocolate ice cream and told to pick one and saying "I don't want either.. I would prefer sliced strawberries please" Free will is DISRUPTION in all things that are normal.

                            And to anyone else reading this... let me point out something.. There is nothing wrong with mundane. Goto work everyday.. do what you have to.. put 10% a way every paycheck and in retirement you will be a millionaire. STUPID EASY to do.. and really who does this?

                            Goto thrift stores and where ever else buy $200 worth of retail items to sell on e-bay 5 days a week.. and in a short amount of time you have developed a $1000 a week online business.... STUPID EASY to do.. and again, who does this?

                            The GAP.. I believe to be a safety mechanism - the little are you sure moment - a natural check and balance. the buffer between mundane human nature and risk.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                              Again its the gap... between reactive action - giving the answer before the person that "thought" the answer, that is the catch. what exactly is that block of time? The destined path taking over - OR the option of free will?
                              .
                              You are misunderstanding what the gap is. it's not a moment where nothing is happening. The brain id quite busy . In fact, "the gap" is when the brain is doing all it's work.

                              The gap is the time needed for your brain to actually create a thought. It's the unconscious process our brain does ..and our conscious thought is the end result. It's only a gap because thinking isn't instantaneous.

                              Another reason there is a gap in time..is that thinking is a chemical process, more than an electrical one. In fact it takes a good fraction of a second for your brain to react to anything...for a response to even start.

                              Somehow, you are talking about something different. We have no "free will option". Our brains process stimulus at a certain speed, and that creates the gap in time.

                              If we had free will, it would be necessary to have a mind separate from the activity of the brain. And we do not.

                              Again, reading Free Will by Sam Harris would give a complete picture, and all the science behind it.

                              Your viewing of the short video was an edited section of a longer talk, which was a section of the complete explanation. The book itself is short enough to read in an hour or so.

                              Again, I think "The gap" is the weakest part of the free will argument. The only thing (to me) it adds is evidence that our thinking is mechanical...chemical...rather that something apart from brain function.
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                              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                You are misunderstanding what the gap is. it's not a moment where nothing is happening. The brain id quite busy . In fact, "the gap" is when the brain is doing all it's work.

                                The gap is the time needed for your brain to actually create a thought. It's the unconscious process our brain does ..and our conscious thought is the end result. It's only a gap because thinking isn't instantaneous.

                                Another reason there is a gap in time..is that thinking is a chemical process, more than an electrical one. In fact it takes a good fraction of a second for your brain to react to anything...for a response to even start.

                                Somehow, you are talking about something different. We have no "free will option". Our brains process stimulus at a certain speed, and that creates the gap in time.

                                If we had free will, it would be necessary to have a mind separate from the activity of the brain. And we do not.

                                Again, reading Free Will by Sam Harris would give a complete picture, and all the science behind it.

                                Your viewing of the short video was an edited section of a longer talk, which was a section of the complete explanation. The book itself is short enough to read in an hour or so.

                                Again, I think "The gap" is the weakest part of the free will argument. The only thing (to me) it adds is evidence that our thinking is mechanical...chemical...rather that something apart from brain function.
                                In your case you have a huge gap..between your ears

                                "If we had free will, it would be necessary to have a mind separate from the activity of the brain. And we do not."

                                An assumption of yours that will be proven to be wrong within 30 years. And I will be there to dance around you as you continue to look for the props of deception.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                  In your case you have a huge gap..between your ears

                                  "If we had free will, it would be necessary to have a mind separate from the activity of the brain. And we do not."

                                  An assumption of yours that will be proven to be wrong within 30 years. And I will be there to dance around you as you continue to look for the props of deception.
                                  it is not an assumption of mine. It's the very foundation of brain science.

                                  I don't mean to be mean...but sometimes, these disagreements aren't differences of opinion. They are differences in levels of education or study.

                                  Every fact we know about the brain and its function...and brain injuries, brain defects, brain illness....all show that the mind is the function of the brain. The mind is..what the brain does.

                                  This isn't a theory. No brain surgeon, brain pathologist, or brain scientist thinks differently.

                                  Go to Amazon.com, and pick the first book you find on brain science..written by a brain scientist (not a metaphysical guru)...read it...and then come back and we can debate the finer points.

                                  Or...you can keep on dancing. Actually, dancing sounds like more fun.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                    it is not an assumption of mine. It's the very foundation of brain science.

                                    I don't mean to be mean...but sometimes, these disagreements aren't differences of opinion. They are differences in levels of education or study.

                                    Every fact we know about the brain and its function...and brain injuries, brain defects, brain illness....all show that the mind is the function of the brain. The mind is..what the brain does.

                                    This isn't a theory. No brain surgeon, brain pathologist, or brain scientist thinks differently.

                                    Go to Amazon.com, and pick the first book you find on brain science..written by a brain scientist (not a metaphysical guru)...read it...and then come back and we can debate the finer points.

                                    Or...you can keep on dancing. Actually, dancing sounds like more fun.
                                    I look forward to meeting you.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  Is there a shorter version? Im interested but probably not an hour and eighteen minutes interested.... that's way to long to not have a dose of Music!

                  Yes.. this >



                  Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

                  The time traveler obviously has no life and too much time on his hands and is akin to a Peeping Tom and since the time traveler is an invisible Peeping Tom it speaks of no regard to our actions and thoughts.


                  It must be true.. I read it in the internet.

                  If people would read what I have read on the internet the world would be a better place.


                  Your welcome.
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                  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                    Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

                    If people would read what I have read on the internet the world would be a better place.
                    Uh....

                    we read THIS forum... are you sure about that? what ive read.. the world is a wreck
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                      Uh....

                      we read THIS forum... are you sure about that? what ive read.. the world is a wreck

                      Yes, I am sure about that because I went back in time, 16th Nov 2018, 02:26 AM, this post, (careful, free will is explained in great detail).


                      Again, please read everything I post and all will be right with the world.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  Is there a shorter version? Im interested but probably not an hour and eighteen minutes interested.... that's way to long to not have a dose of Music!
                  <snip>

                  Yes, there is a shorter version, but at my age an hour and eighteen minutes is a virtue that I don't experience very often. Thank goodness for free will and Viagra.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Either;
                1) I explained it incorrectly.
                2) You don't understand what I explained correctly.
                3) You're pulling my leg. Genuinely, I hope that's the case.

                Please...watch the Sam Harris video, It will explain, in nauseating detail, what I have been trying to say...but not getting across.
                I watched a few minutes of the video, enough to determine that the man talks accurately, entirely within the framework of one Linear Timeline being all there is. Which is just a theory, along with there being infinite variations being played out simultaneously, just a theory too.

                If infinite, physical universes exists (another theory) then all variations "are" being played out in a physical sense but have nothing to do with infinite dimensions and timelines.

                So, that's 2 theories to your one, so I win. One things more certain. In some shape or form, you most likely did murder Dan Riffle.
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  • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
    Has the Roomba really decimated the vacuum cleaner business that much?

    Are there no dog shelters where you can volunteer your incredibly inordinate amount of free time?

    Will no amount of begging convince your wife to move back home???

    Just sayin' . . . . . . . .
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Let's pretend for a second ....
    Let's not...................
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Let's pretend for a second
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      Let's not...................
      Smart man, Whatty. Asking to play pretend is how most of Claude's arrests began.
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  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Let's pretend for a second that someone came to you and told you that you could travel to the past in their time machine. Here are the conditions;

    1) You could not influence the past in any way. This isn't a rule you have to follow..you are unable to influence the past.
    2) You will be completely undetectable by anyone in the past. You have no mass, no ability to influence objects. Like a ghost, just able to see the past unfold.
    3) You can travel anywhere in the past, at any speed. You can replay a specific moment over and over again if you like. But you are only able to observe, not touch, influence, or be detectable in any way.

    The question is, if you went back 100 years and watched a day in a city go buy...and you repeated that day 1,000 times...would it ever change? No.

    Every person would behave exactly the same way every time. Every time, everything would unfold the same way. Every decision would be the same, every action would be the same.

    But why wouldn't the day be different every time you went into the past to see that same day unfold? Why would it be the same?

    Don't the people you observe have free will? Can't they decide differently than they did before?

    The problem is, the past has only one path....and it is going to be the same no matter how you observe it, how many times you go back.

    So....what is the difference between the past and the future? You can see the past, but you cannot see the future. The path that the universe took in the past, is knowable.

    Why isn't the future knowable just like the past? Because it depends on where we were in the time stream when we decided to go back into our past.

    Think about this...if a person in 1,000 years had a time machine and they could observe an incident or event somewhere on Earth in their past...let's say today...our present, their past....would any thing we do today change? No. Remember, we are just part of their past. They have already seen what happened today, tomorrow, the next day. It's just that we have not.

    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

    Sweet dreams.
    Depends on your perception of what time is. A construct of the human mind to mark the passage of decay and renewal of what we see around us,

    Although not proven, I entertain that the only time is "Now" and an infinite amount of threads come from it playing out every single possibility of free will, past, present and future. So, since there is only a "Now", then it's the same for the past as it is only a single moment. "Now"

    You are going down one thread, the one you are on only and repeatedly see the same outcome. Not surprising then.

    Of course you will say all this is garbage.

    I have a question related to this. What if just one occurrence of the Mandela Effect was real. (for the sake of argument) Let's say Home Depot suddenly acquiring a "The" prefix in 2015. Now according to history it has been that way since 1977. History is now set that way.

    So I go backwards and forwards along this thread of time, would it be that way in 1977 or would I see it change in 2015.
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

      I entertain
      Translation: Please ignore the following drivel.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

        Translation: Please ignore the following drivel.
        I do that translation when I see the hybrid word "OptedIn" in the top left hand corner of a post.
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        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          I do that translation when I see the hybrid word "OptedIn" in the top left hand corner of a post.
          You know that I'm the lamp held high, guiding your way through life. Show some thanks, lest you look like an ingrate in front of everyone.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

            You know that I'm the lamp held high, guiding your way through life. Show some thanks, lest you look like an ingrate in front of everyone.
            How are you on Divorce Law?
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            • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              How are you on Divorce Law?
              Smart enough to have never needed to even consider that. :-)
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Chubby, here's a question for you: what if a person lives his life by random chance? What if his decisions are determined by the flip of a coin or a random number generator?

                What if we take away the predictability of the culmination of life experiences that dictate the decision making process?

                What if actually giving up one's free will (or illusion of such) is actually the ultimate demonstration of free will?

                Forget the fact that this person probably wouldn't live very long as that's beside the point. He would certainly be hit by a bus crossing the street.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Chubby, here's a question for you: what if a person lives his life by random chance? What if his decisions are determined by the flip of a coin or a random number generator?

                  What if we take away the predictability of the culmination of life experiences that dictate the decision making process?

                  What if actually giving up one's free will (or illusion of such) is actually the ultimate demonstration of free will?

                  Forget the fact that this person probably wouldn't live very long as that's beside the point. He would certainly be hit by a bus crossing the street.
                  That all depends on the underlying construct that governs everything, or hierarchy.

                  Or not to get to far into forbidden subjects here, sure anyone can do whatever they wish, but if a system exists then there are consequences.

                  And since the anything goes idea is allowed, and only one way exists that doesn't cause mass extinction or extinction on a personal level, some rules have to be adhered to.

                  Or another way of putting it, it may take a while to come to this realization, (lifetimes perhaps).

                  So free will means we can do what we like, and also means, (just like in Groundhog Day) that we can do it over and over, til we get so sick of doing it, (the incorrect thought or action) that we finally snap out of it and move onto greater things.

                  We can stray from the long and windy road, for as long as we wish, but intimately we all end up at the same place.

                  PS sorry about the format, been watching too many Stargate shows, hallowed are the,....never mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

    Sweet dreams.
    if you are talking about the past where things happened a certain way ...which accumulated to the way things now ... why would basically watching a record of the past ever change

    now here is the the counter question if you went back 100 year of 50 year ..and watched events and they changed every time you watched them.. but you come back to the present and everything is the same every time you return ..that would be more evidence of determinism and lack of free will .. than the idea you put forth.. because it would mean that no mateer what people did ..thing ended up th same way..

    say someone goes back and does kill Hitler .. but ww2 happened anyway.. and some other person did what hitler did.. and the only noticable change in the world .. is men are able to have the partial mustache and it is fairly common.. and it is just someone else who was the monter instead of hitler
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  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    I just read a long Whitacre post after my last one and it vanished. Free Will I suppose.
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

      I just read a long Whitacre post after my last one and it vanished. Free Will I suppose.
      More like good fortune.
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Sweet dreams.

    Gotta wonder what happens when two time machines dootifully observin' Claude's Rules #s 1-3 fly into each other.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Oh, my head hurts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Let's pretend for a second that someone came to you and told you that you could travel to the past in their time machine.
    I would make them an offer on the time machine they could not refuse and pay them with pretend money.

    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    So my question is...if nothing changes in their past, how can we have free will? If we are going to behave a certain way...and behave that same way, no matter how many times a time traveler from our future observes us....how are we actually choosing our own actions and thoughts?

    Sweet dreams.

    It would depend on what was observed I guess. Say, in the future I could not remember an equation I wrote on a whiteboard when I was younger and the equation would help in present times. Well, after paying for the time machine with pretend money I would travel back in time and observe the equation on the whiteboard. Then I would travel back to the future and use the equation. The equation turns pretend money into real money BTW.


    My head really hurts now. I should have grabbed the equation for solving this question when I traveled back the first time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Skimmin' here cos I such a loser.

    Means I kinda dunno what is fluxin' out from offa Claude's OPtastic BLAMMO, an' in the context of kinda life, tbh ima kinda beyond FFS rn.

    Way I see it, time travel is our most immediate & potentially transformative conflux ... kinda bcs we slip on our panties ... drill down on whatevah ... an' conclude all necessaries as a WIP spazzo.

    Gotta figure if'n ima crucifixed out anyplace, it is cos naila past bloodied through one hand ... an' similar for the other hand brings me off sweet when there ain't no comfort for my flesho beyond SRSLY FATTNIN' CHOCOLAWT.

    So ima dangle & self-levify on any NOW shows.

    Such is balance, I guess.

    WOW, PRINCESS -- THAT'S MINDFULNESS GENIUS!
    WHEN CAN I BOOK ON YOUR COURSE?

    Soon as I frickin' conscious, Sweetiepoppet.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
    Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

    I would make them an offer on the time machine they could not refuse and pay them with pretend money.

    It would depend on what was observed I guess. Say, in the future I could not remember an equation I wrote on a whiteboard when I was younger and the equation would help in present times. Well, after paying for the time machine with pretend money I would travel back in time and observe the equation on the whiteboard. Then I would travel back to the future and use the equation. The equation turns pretend money into real money BTW.

    My head really hurts now. I should have grabbed the equation for solving this question when I traveled back the first time.
    You shouldn't have'd skipped the Temporal Mechanics semester.

    Claude prefers Pick-Up Shish Kabobs.
    Which is a lot harder with barbecue sauce.

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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    tbh rn I wanna time travel back to when this post nevah existed.


    Then I would copy Claude's original post an' see what happened.


    Then I would journey into the fyootures resultin' from both posts an' split test on when the Apocalypse happens first.


    Call me fickle, but I believe this is called the Butterfly Effect.


    Puttin' evrythin' else aside, either Claude or Moi is responsible for imminent Apocalypse.
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      tbh rn I wanna time travel back to when this post nevah existed.
      I'll keep a light on for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    ok here is my point of view .. as i to think with enough information and modeling .. we can predict potential outcomes.. but the prediction does not make for determination .. but the more information .. allows one to better understand the design.. to make adjustments to get a better potential outcome than the prediction ..

    i have read way to much research about the many factors that effect our decision making outside of our conscious awareness ..that some stds will change a persons chemical balance and lead them to more risky sexual behaviors .. and a long lit of other things .. people use logic and free will not to make most of their choices .. but to later explain the choices they make
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  • Profile picture of the author sagar rastogi
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by sagar rastogi View Post

      i can breath and tell my body which cell to bring the oxygen to and which not .. i can eat and predetermine where the vitamin minerals and sugers go in my body .. i can't control my thoughts or chose what i will thing about .. i can't control when i get hungry ..or that i need sleep ..or need to drink water .. but there is no other source of control..but multiple sources of
      Possibly, but you can't post SPAM on this forum!!!

      Reported!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

        Possibly, but you can't post SPAM on this forum!!!

        Reported!

        Retired marketers are so bitter. That was just creative product placement. Can't be running away ANY posters to this forum at this time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Can we change the subject "How to get a free lap dance please?"
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

      Can we change the subject "How to get a free lap dance please?"
      My cat gives me lap dances.
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      • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        My cat gives me lap dances.

        My lap gives me cat dances.


        Even if I ain't dowin' nuthin' much.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
          Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

          My lap gives me cat dances.


          Even if I ain't dowin' nuthin' much.

          Now that is what I'm talking about
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        My cat gives me lap dances.
        Claude Balls
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Claude Balls

          OMG, thanks for putting that thought in my head. Oh well, guess the lap dance will have to wait.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Claude Balls
          An oxymoron if there ever was one...
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        My cat gives me lap dances.

        For free? I don't have a cat, but the hood strays charge too much
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesny Spann
    Hi I'm new here. How are you all
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesny Spann
    Hi all
    how are you
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by Jesny Spann View Post

      Hi all
      how are you
      You had the free will to introduce yourself twice. Are you a Spanner?

      Welcome to the forum.
      Signature

      Where ever you go, there you are.

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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        You had the free will to introduce yourself twice. Are you a Spanner?

        Welcome to the forum.
        Silly. She did it once, time traveled and returned to do it, again.

        How was the trip?
        Signature

        "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

          Silly. She did it once, time traveled and returned to do it, again.

          How was the trip?
          And when she did, she said something slightly different the second trip...thus destroying my entire premise.

          Thanks Obama.
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          • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            And when she did, she said something slightly different the second trip...thus destroying my entire premise.

            Thanks Obama.
            Mandella Effect???
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

              Mandella Effect???
              You see, it happened again, you must have briefly crossed over to an alt timeline where they spell Mandela with two L's and come back with a dual memory. I rest my case.

              PS: Did you meet Yukon when you were there?
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              • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                You see, it happened again, you must have briefly crossed over to an alt timeline where they spell Mandela with two L's and come back with a dual memory. I rest my case.

                PS: Did you meet Yukon when you were there?
                4 years ago, today, Nelson Mandela died...

                https://ewn.co.za/2017/12/05/4-years...n-mandela-died


                Least we hope so?

                Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Thought experiments are very dangerous.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Thought experiments are very dangerous.
          As is untying kittens all wrapped up in string.

          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I present the two most well thought out and intelligent posts I've ever read. What are the odds of us having two experts...two...on time travel?
          True, never go back in time for a curry.

          Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author phcare
    damn, i don't know if I can say this clearer .. but i want to ..so no matter how many timelines there are in the past.
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by phcare View Post

      damn, i don't know if I can say this clearer .. but i want to ..so no matter how many timelines there are in the past.
      Epic fail. That wasn't the least bit clear, at all.
      Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by phcare View Post

      damn, i don't know if I can say this clearer .. but i want to ..so no matter how many timelines there are in the past.
      Entire sentences...the key to clarity...is entire sentences.
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Entire sentences...the key to clarity...is entire sentences.
        Speaking of entire sentences, have you served yours, or are you out on parole at the moment?
        Signature
        An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
        Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          Speaking of entire sentences, have you served yours, or are you out on parole at the moment?
          Unlikely, incorrect use of the semi colon is a serious crime.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            Unlikely, incorrect use of the semi colon is a serious crime.
            I think you misunderstood. Claude incorrectly uses *his* colon.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              I think you misunderstood. Claude incorrectly uses *his* colon.
              Generic insult. Generic short joke. Generic joke about garden gnomes.


              Today, I just feel like phoning it in.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Generic insult. Generic short joke. Generic joke about garden gnomes.


                Today, I just feel like phoning it in.
                Don't feel like participating today? You may well be interested in my Poster Fill In Services. For just 10 bucks a day, you just give me your user/pass and my automated system will give generic but in character replies based on other posts mentioning your name.

                It will have the usual spattering of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, not to mention, faulty hypothesis, flawed arguments and appalling jokes

                No one will notice the difference

                Yes, for just 10 bucks a day, no one need ever know that you have been away or just can't be bothered.

                Your reputation as a regular poster will be intact.
                Signature

                Where ever you go, there you are.

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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  Don't feel like participating today? You may well be interested in my Poster Fill In Services. For just 10 bucks a day, you just give me your user/pass and my automated system will give generic but in character replies based on other posts mentioning your name.

                  It will have the usual spattering of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, not to mention, faulty hypothesis, flawed arguments and appalling jokes

                  No one will notice the difference

                  Yes, for just 10 bucks a day, no one need ever know that you have been away or just can't be bothered.

                  Your reputation as a regular poster will be intact.
                  Make it $20 a day, and you have a deal.








                  I'm a terrible negotiator.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Today, I just feel like phoning it in.
                Today?

                (I'm taking the low hanging fruit, too. However, for me it's figurative.)
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                Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

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  • Profile picture of the author Highest And Best
    I have a great answer for your question.

    The answer is very simple, in fact our entire vast universe and the rules of our universe are simple, consistent, and often a paradox of everything we expect and believe.

    so here is your answer...

    The future has not happened yet, and we can create and mold it in any way we choose. As we move through time, the past becomes solidified into history, yet we are currently at the leading edge, in this very moment, and we have the choice that determines our future.

    You can't change yesterday, but you can affect tomorrow.


    Oh, and one last thing... your future is created by your thoughts. We literally become what we think about


    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Highest And Best View Post

      I have a great answer for your question.

      The answer is very simple, in fact our entire vast universe and the rules of our universe are simple, consistent, and often a paradox of everything we expect and believe.

      so here is your answer...

      The future has not happened yet, and we can create and mold it in any way we choose. As we move through time, the past becomes solidified into history, yet we are currently at the leading edge, in this very moment, and we have the choice that determines our future.

      You can't change yesterday, but you can affect tomorrow.


      Oh, and one last thing... your future is created by your thoughts. We literally become what we think about


      -Scott

      Similar to what Riffle said.

      Although you used the word "paradox" incorrectly.

      Maybe you meant "and often the antithesis of everything we expect and believe."

      A paradox is a trick of language that makes us think something is inconsistent to rational thinking. But it's always a matter of language or false logic. There are no paradoxes.

      "We literally become what we think about"

      No. I see where the language of that is attractive. I have the same Earl Nightingale recording that I've listened to dozens of times.

      But we cannot become what we think about. We may be drawn to what we think about. But I think about my wife all day...and I've never become my wife. I used to think about Superman..but here I am, just Claude.

      If you think about Paris all the time..you can go to Paris....but you cannot become Paris.

      That feeling of aggravation you are feeling right now? All my relatives and friends know exactly what you are feeling.
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      • Profile picture of the author Highest And Best
        Thanks for the correction on my use of the word "paradox".

        Regarding our thoughts and our manifestations, it's not about the words we use, but the vibrations we emit. Thoughts are extremely fast vibrations, so instead of saying we become what we think about, perhaps it would be easier to understand if worded this way: we get what we think about (whether wanted or not)

        -Scott
        Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Highest And Best View Post

          Thanks for the correction on my use of the word "paradox".

          Regarding our thoughts and our manifestations, it's not about the words we use, but the vibrations we emit. Thoughts are extremely fast vibrations, so instead of saying we become what we think about, perhaps it would be easier to understand if worded this way: we get what we think about (whether wanted or not)

          -Scott
          Scott; I don't know about emitting vibrations. But you took my bullshit like a man, and replied with class.

          By the way, you may like this;

          We get the reality that we accept. Although probably not always true, it's something I have observed.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Scott; I don't know about emitting vibrations. But you took my bullshit like a man, and replied with class.

            By the way, you may like this;

            We get the reality that we accept. Although probably not always true, it's something I have observed.
            How I interpret this is thoughts become things, simply because what we can dream up or think about can sometimes be physically manifested or "Made"

            Example: I think of a way to harness the force of magnetism to make a device. that provides free energy. I make this device and show it works. And by some impossible stroke of luck the world forgoes their grip on fossil fuels, economics and greed etc and adopts it.

            My single inspired thought has shaped the future immeasurably and wiped out our carbon emissions.
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            • Profile picture of the author Odahh
              [QUOTE=lanfear63;11457275

              My single inspired thought has shaped the future immeasurably and wiped out our carbon emissions.[/QUOTE]


              why not focus on increasing the number of trees and grasslands that breath in the carbon dioxide and store it in soil ..
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                why not focus on increasing the number of trees and grasslands that breath in the carbon dioxide and store it in soil ..
                It was just to demonstrate my perception of what the poster was saying with regards to thought,. being made into physical things and how it could shape our future.

                The global warming thing is really for a different thread.
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                • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  It was just to demonstrate my perception of what the poster was saying with regards to thought,. being made into physical things and how it could shape our future.

                  The global warming thing is really for a different thread.
                  I'm lazy i quoted this instead of the post from you and Claude ..but it will attempt to respond ..

                  I am 40 even 20 or 25 years ago.. no matter how much effort or thinking i put into it.. i would probably have never been a pro athlete in any sport that putts you head to head with other athletes ..

                  we can always create a better future than we have .. it comes down to if we feel putting in the discomfort or going through the discomfort we need to go through.. to get from the comfort level we are at to the higher comfort level ..is worth it or if we are worthy of it ..

                  oddly enough with the example you used of the car .. why was the idea of writing down the price of the car ..and opening a savings account to save up money to buy the car ..never on the list .. or is never on the options in any of those books ..it gets left up to manifestation of some mystical means ..

                  blah blah blah well i guess if our pasts dictate our future.. that is why ..if we never saved money in the past ..
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              How I interpret this is thoughts become things, simply because what we can dream up or think about can sometimes be physically manifested or "Made"

              Example: I think of a way to harness the force of magnetism to make a device. that provides free energy. I make this device and show it works. And by some impossible stroke of luck the world forgoes their grip on fossil fuels, economics and greed etc and adopts it.

              My single inspired thought has shaped the future immeasurably and wiped out our carbon emissions.
              You interpret a different way than what I meant.

              When I said "We get the reality that we accept" I meant that when we accept our situation, it no longer causes us to want to change our life situation. Being comfortable is the enemy of life change.

              Years ago, someone said to me "The thing standing in the way of you making $100,000 a year...is making $50,000 a year". What he meant by that was that I was comfortable in my level of income. I no longer felt uncomfortable with my income. He was right. Of course, it could apply to any aspect of life.

              If you are in an unhappy relationship...and stay there....it's because you have accepted it (the exception is if they keep you locked up in the basement).

              In a different context, accepting something as true is the point where questioning stops, where learning stops.

              I used to read "We become what we think about" and "Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve."

              I remember reading these things as a very young man...thinking that they were profound insights into reality. But they are just snappy lines.....that sound wonderful....and are often not true.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                You interpret a different way than what I meant.

                When I said "We get the reality that we accept" I meant that when we accept our situation, it no longer causes us to want to change our life situation. Being comfortable is the enemy of life change.

                Years ago, someone said to me "The thing standing in the way of you making $100,000 a year...is making $50,000 a year". What he meant by that was that I was comfortable in my level of income. I no longer felt uncomfortable with my income. He was right. Of course, it could apply to any aspect of life.

                If you are in an unhappy relationship...and stay there....it's because you have accepted it (the exception is if they keep you locked up in the basement).

                In a different context, accepting something as true is the point where questioning stops, where learning stops.

                I used to read "We become what we think about" and "Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve."

                I remember reading these things as a very young man...thinking that they were profound insights into reality. But they are just snappy lines.....that sound wonderful....and are often not true.
                I remember reading a 50's book: "Bring Out The Magic In Your Mind" by Al Koran. In it he says stuff like: "If you want a xyz car, think about it a lot, see it in your life, buy the keyring, learn all about it, look at pictures of it, go to car shows and car lot's" etc.

                And sure you can manifest it, but to what costs?, a beloved relative dying and leaving you money, the opportunity to buy a bargain property but spending it on your obsession instead..

                Being passionately interested and positive at acquiring something or achieving something is still better than just saying, well I would like that, though there may be be sacrifices and penalties to get it. Say you want to fly a small plane, that's a learning process.

                Learning the procedures to achieve anything is part of the journey. Without the passion and dedication, even the obsession with your dream, its far less likely to happen
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  I remember reading a 50's book: "Bring Out The Magic In Your Mind" by Al Koran. In it he says stuff like: "If you want a xyz car, think about it a lot, see it in your life, buy the keyring, learn all about it, look at pictures of it, go to car shows and car lot's" etc.
                  All of those things may let you think you are getting closer to actually getting a car.....

                  But none of them help you get a car.
                  Ask anyone who got the car of their dreams how they got it...

                  None of them will say "I visualized it, read my goals 3 times a day, posted photos of the car on my mirror, and thought about that car all day for months...and suddenly, there it was".

                  This reminds me of the threads in a different section of this forum....."Get rich by sending out mental vibrations into the universe"...that kind of thing.

                  But if you ask anyone who has actually achieved financial success "What got you there?"...it's never anything about sending out positive thoughts....or looking at photos, or visualizing your goal.....

                  But that never stops us from believing in miracles. Never.

                  In the battle between imagination and reasoning..imagination always wins.

                  Humans.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    All of those things may let you think you are getting closer to actually getting a car.....

                    But none of them help you get a car.
                    Ask anyone who got the car of their dreams how they got it...


                    None of them will say "I visualized it, read my goals 3 times a day, posted photos of the car on my mirror, and thought about that car all day for months...and suddenly, there it was".

                    This reminds me of the threads in a different section of this forum....."Get rich by sending out mental vibrations into the universe"...that kind of thing.

                    But if you ask anyone who has actually achieved financial success "What got you there?"...it's never anything about sending out positive thoughts....or looking at photos, or visualizing your goal.....

                    But that never stops us from believing in miracles. Never.

                    In the battle between imagination and reasoning..imagination always wins.

                    Humans.
                    Never has a truer word been spoken.

                    I always advise my clients and anyone else that is dumb enough to listen to me..

                    "Use a Slim Jim."
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                  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    All of those things may let you think you are getting closer to actually getting a car.....

                    But none of them help you get a car.
                    Ask anyone who got the car of their dreams how they got it...

                    None of them will say "I visualized it, read my goals 3 times a day, posted photos of the car on my mirror, and thought about that car all day for months...and suddenly, there it was".

                    This reminds me of the threads in a different section of this forum....."Get rich by sending out mental vibrations into the universe"...that kind of thing.

                    But if you ask anyone who has actually achieved financial success "What got you there?"...it's never anything about sending out positive thoughts....or looking at photos, or visualizing your goal.....

                    But that never stops us from believing in miracles. Never.

                    In the battle between imagination and reasoning..imagination always wins.

                    Humans.
                    this is going off into the jungle.. so it might not lead anywhere for anyone else. the three points that never really get addressed in the visualization space of the woo woo,. Come down to Why do you want the car the real emotional reasons . how important is it you have the car . Then the big one are you willing to take the actions needed to get the car ..

                    now the dream killer question.. is do you really believe you can have the car..which down deep the majority of visualizer don't think they will.. which is what they actually send out to the universe (just kidding ) when they are somehow expecting it to just show up ..now the other curvbal question.. is how do you feel about others who drive the car you want.. and do you want people feeling the same way about you when you drive it

                    blah
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Decorum
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Mega Vaper
    Time Travel is very dangerous
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Mega Vaper View Post

      Time Travel is very dangerous
      No, it isn't.

      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Mega Vaper View Post

        Time Travel is very dangerous
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        No, it isn't.


        I present the two most well thought out and intelligent posts I've ever read. What are the odds of us having two experts...two...on time travel?
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I present the two most well thought out and intelligent posts I've ever read. What are the odds of us having two experts...two...on time travel?
          Mega Vaper went back to 1922 and left his Vaping Pen behind. The pen was found and duplicated by someone. Thus, smoking cigarettes died out a few years later. all those people who would have died of lung cancer did not. That changed many things. Including Pete Bardens of Camel not dying of lung cancer and going on to make several crap solo albums after he was fired from the group, instead of one, which I unfortunately bought.

          Yes, it is dangerous.
          Signature

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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            Mega Vaper went back to 1922 and left his Vaping Pen behind. The pen was found and duplicated by someone. Thus, smoking cigarettes died out a few years later. all those people who would have died of lung cancer did not. That changed many things. Including Pete Bardens of Camel not dying of lung cancer and going on to make several crap solo albums after he was fired from the group, instead of one, which I unfortunately bought.

            Yes, it is dangerous.
            I just arrived this morning....

            Yes...yes...this is the time stream where I have not yet killed Dan Riffle.
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I just arrived this morning....

              Yes...yes...this is the time stream where I have not yet killed Dan Riffle.
              You just Punched through
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    • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
      Originally Posted by Mega Vaper View Post

      Time Travel is very dangerous
      So how do you know it is ? You talk to people who have done it before ? Please explain in detail.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mega Vaper
        I saw the time machine 2002

        You're welcome! BTW, all the time machine movies with happy endings are fake.

        I also dropped my Slim Jim and a can of Red Bull... Yes you may continue.
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  • Profile picture of the author msulcs
    We are "programmed" by someone and our lives are determined, just like The game "Sims". We are the Sims for someone.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by msulcs View Post

      We are "programmed" by someone and our lives are determined, just like The game "Sims". We are the Sims for someone.
      Anyone in particular? For example, I'm pretty sure that I have programmed Dan Riffle's life...to amuse myself.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Anyone in particular? For example, I'm pretty sure that I have programmed Dan Riffle's life...to amuse myself.
        Dan Riffle's programming was done old school...with Punch Cards
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    • Profile picture of the author Odahh
      Originally Posted by msulcs View Post

      We are "programmed" by someone and our lives are determined, just like The game "Sims". We are the Sims for someone.
      are you sure . so what do you believe is being simulated ..or the purpose of this so called sim .

      andd if you really believe that ..do you just let the simulation do with you what it will.. or do you think having the knowledge that you are a program gives you any power over changes what happens to the program .

      It is far different from a simulation the way we currently have games programmed
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    You're describing someone travelling back in time, observing but not influencing the events of the past. Just a pure observer, standing outside, as it were, looking in. Free will choices have already been made and baked into that past. In a way, it's like reading an old newspaper depicting the events of that day, in that it won't change upon re-reading it. Or watching an old news reel. As a narrator might announce, "You're seeing events the way they happened, nothing has been changed."

    But if the past could be re-lived again, then certainly it would be different. Everything would be different. Might not even be any humans ever existed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      You're describing someone travelling back in time, observing but not influencing the events of the past. Just a pure observer, standing outside, as it were, looking in. Free will choices have already been made and baked into that past. In a way, it's like reading an old newspaper depicting the events of that day, in that it won't change upon re-reading it. Or watching an old news reel. As a narrator might announce, "You're seeing events the way they happened, nothing has been changed."

      But if the past could be re-lived again, then certainly it would be different. Everything would be different. Might not even be any humans ever existed.
      Yes, but only because you are aware of your past events a second time. . My idea is that if you went through the exact same scenario in time, with no awareness of past episodes, you would make the same decisions every time...every word would be the same. Every thought.

      And in that way, we have no free will. We are not able to act or think outside our neural pathways.

      My idea is summed up nicely in the idea of "Laplace's Demon".


      Here you are.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon
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      • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Yes

        My idea is a nice "Lapdance
        Fixed that for you
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

          Fixed that for you
          I've heard he has his own personal garden gnome who performs that "service" for him.
          Signature
          An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
          Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

            I've heard he has his own personal garden gnome who performs that "service" for him.
            That would be his fishing pole dancing gnome. Claude picked him up in some low dive
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


              And in that way, we have no free will. We are not able to act or think outside our neural pathways.
              Ooooh, never mind.

              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              I haven't read the entire thread.. this may have been brought up already.. but you premise is flawed. Free will would be to the point of an action - or lack of.. and once that moment is gone.. so is free will. The action or lack of, is then cemented into "history" or your past. No matter how many times you read a book.. the words will remain the same for of all of time.

              Free will can not alter what HAS happened.. but it CAN impact what WILL happen.
              So Deadpool going back in time to kill himself and then go back even further to kill himself before Green Hornet, isn't possible?

              Canada will be disappointed.

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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                Ooooh, never mind.



                So Deadpool going back in time to kill himself and then go back even further to kill himself before Green Hornet, isn't possible?

                Canada will be disappointed.

                cant say that it wouldn't be possible.. but in Claudes OP he stipulated:

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Here are the conditions;

                1) You could not influence the past in any way. This isn't a rule you have to follow..you are unable to influence the past.
                2) You will be completely undetectable by anyone in the past. You have no mass, no ability to influence objects. Like a ghost, just able to see the past unfold.
                3) You can travel anywhere in the past, at any speed. You can replay a specific moment over and over again if you like. But you are only able to observe, not touch, influence, or be detectable in any way.
                So killing ones self would be out of the question.
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


              Green Lantern.

              In other words, our thoughts and actions are completely predictable. And if everything we do, say, or think is completely predictable....how do we have free will?
              It was called Green Hornet in the first timeline.

              I agree that our thoughts and actions are predictable if you are talking about brushing your teeth or going to the bathroom.

              But time travel will or would be restricted or limited, considering the serious damage it could cause now.

              But still, Hitler had over 100 attempts on his life, who is to say some of those were people from the future trying to change something that couldn't be changed.

              Or we may be bound to a point that previous things cannot be changed if the motivation to change it came from the original event.

              Similar to the last Time Machine movie, he tried to save his wife, but she kept dying, since he only created the machine to save her.

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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                But still, Hitler had over 100 attempts on his life,
                Yet history only records 42 of them.

                42<100.

                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                who is to say some of those were people from the future trying to change something that couldn't be changed.
                No sane person on earth has ever, or would ever think that.

                What next? All those attempts were conducted by NASA?
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              So lets step back and go with this... look here: Reflex Arcs | BioNinja At its very basic the difference between reflex and thought action.

              We then have this:


              Look at 3:40 where he explains the gap. 1/2 to 5 seconds between the choice being made and the choice being known.

              The basis of the "argument" of lack of free will is not the gap in un itself.. Its the fact that the outcome IE choice being known ( actually knowing the choice ) never delineates from choice being made ( the thought process in making the choice )

              My problem with this, is there is no consideration to the first part of the equation, the thought process in making the choice. The whole concept is focusing on the outcome being the same as the thought.

              It would seem to me that the better argument would be the reflex process with no brain processing at all would be lack of free will, vs arguing that the brain is involved and creates the choice and then there is a gap before the choice is known and ultimately the choice does not change... The simple FACT a choice was MADE ( in my mind ) creates doubt over the WHOLE concept.

              To go even a step further here... there is a difference in brain process between brain encoding ( thought ) and retrieval ( Memory ). There comes a point where the brain simply takes short cuts.. if the choice every time is chocolate ice cream.. this would become a retrieved response.. but the fact that choosing one over the other is an encoded action, using brain power to make the choice VS a retrieved response, I would suggest speaks volumes to the validity of Free Will.
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              • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


                The basis of the "argument" of lack of free will is not the gap in un itself.. Its the fact that the outcome IE choice being known ( actually knowing the choice ) never delineates from choice being made ( the thought process in making the choice )

                My problem with this, is there is no consideration to the first part of the equation, the thought process in making the choice. The whole concept is focusing on the outcome being the same as the thought.
                Problem is Claude wants confirmation that we are machines, and is coming from that angle, that seems valid to him.

                This also means that no progress could be made and Edison would have, (if true) would have done one failed experiment after another and never got anywhere.

                But after failing thousands of times, got the notion from a vacuum cleaner, cleaner in his home that the missing piece was a partial vacuum.

                If insignts were not possible, or breaking free of predictable responses or thought processes, we would be in caves, and using fire, (lighting bolt).

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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                  Problem is Claude wants confirmation that we are machines, and is coming from that angle, that seems valid to him.

                  This also means that no progress could be made and Edison would have, (if true) would have done one failed experiment after another and never got anywhere.

                  But after failing thousands of times, got the notion from a vacuum cleaner, cleaner in his home that the missing piece was a partial vacuum.

                  If insignts were not possible, or breaking free of predictable responses or thought processes, we would be in caves, and using fire, (lighting bolt).

                  The reality is we as humans are bumbling idiots... I would suggest every advancement is more than likely an accident. Fire... without question a lightening strike and a stick... how many times do you think the stick went out before they figured out how to harness "fire" I can only imagine more than a generation if not longer.

                  the early end of the Bronze age... No question in my mind some genius put copper ore around a fire pit and was left with puddles of hot molten metal everywhere. How many people lost a finger or a hand or a foot that night?

                  And Edison.. HE DID do one after the other after the next.. Uh I think 1000 is the historically correct number "I didn't fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps." - Thomas Edison

                  Its not that Claude is stating we are all robots.. what he is suggesting is that we are oooo um "Victims" ( bad word choice ) of genetics, our environment, and a host of many other variables.. and with that we fall into very predictable patterns and as he is suggesting not only predictable, but pre determined patterns.

                  And with that.. I really dont disagree ( to a point ) Step back not to far in history and as I had mentioned.. A son of a blacksmith was going to be a blacksmith.. the 1st son of a king would be king... More literal than today obviously.. you were born into your lifes future.

                  I fall somewhere in the lines of believing both Free Will and Pre Determined paths exist simultaneously. Every thought IS NOT a free thought, and in turn every action is not a pre determined action. - But there is a whole lot of stupid from start to finish hahaha
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                So lets step back and go with this... look here: Reflex Arcs | BioNinja At its very basic the difference between reflex and thought action.

                We then have this:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQJjn-gekn4

                Look at 3:40 where he explains the gap. 1/2 to 5 seconds between the choice being made and the choice being known.

                The basis of the "argument" of lack of free will is not the gap in un itself.. Its the fact that the outcome IE choice being known ( actually knowing the choice ) never delineates from choice being made ( the thought process in making the choice )

                My problem with this, is there is no consideration to the first part of the equation, the thought process in making the choice. The whole concept is focusing on the outcome being the same as the thought.
                .
                The choice was made without conscious thought.But thought is the process the brain goes through to give us the conscious thought. It's all one process.

                I think I'm misunderstanding your idea. I'll read over your previous posts to see if I can get a better picture of what you mean.


                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                Problem is Claude wants confirmation that we are machines, and is coming from that angle, that seems valid to him.

                This also means that no progress could be made and Edison would have, (if true) would have done one failed experiment after another and never got anywhere.

                But after failing thousands of times, got the notion from a vacuum cleaner, cleaner in his home that the missing piece was a partial vacuum.

                If insignts were not possible, or breaking free of predictable responses or thought processes, we would be in caves, and using fire, (lighting bolt).

                Everything you said here is wrong. The Dunning Kruger effect at its finest.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Everything you said here is wrong. The Dunning Kruger effect at its finest.
                  I watched a good part of the video, l don't believe so.

                  If l have a bad upbringing, and murdered someone that was inevitable, and we would do the same,....pfft.

                  Plenty of people throughout history with terrible lives that ended up successful.

                  This video or person is making points by bringing up controversial data or trying to confirm that we are machines on automatic poliot.

                  Never mind the several trillion atoms making us up that is mainly composed of nothing, and make up of particles with no mass that are interconnected to 10 other dimensions, (String theory) some without the constraints of this reality, l can go on....

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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                    I watched a good part of the video, l don't believe so.

                    If l have a bad upbringing, and murdered someone that was inevitable, and we would do the same,....pfft.

                    Plenty of people throughout history with terrible lives that ended up successful.

                    This video or person is making points by bringing up controversial data or trying to confirm that we are machines on automatic poliot.

                    Never mind the several trillion atoms making us up that is mainly composed of nothing, and make up of particles with no mass that are interconnected to 10 other dimensions, (String theory) some without the constraints of this reality, l can go on....

                    Yes...you could go on.

                    You are completely misunderstanding what's being said on the video. Nothing you said here remotely connects to it.


                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                    Never mind the several trillion atoms making us up that is mainly composed of nothing, and make up of particles with no mass that are interconnected to 10 other dimensions, (String theory) some without the constraints of this reality, l can go on....

                    You are saying this as though you have some idea of what it means...or you think by saying "String theory" that you can somehow connect that to free will.

                    I'm truly sorry.
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Yes...you could go on.

              You are completely misunderstanding what's being said on the video. Nothing you said here remotely connects to it.

              You are saying this as though you have some idea of what it means...or you think by saying "String theory" that you can somehow connect that to free will.

              I'm truly sorry.
              Gee, l am glad the guy below explains it.

              And l am saying that since we are conscious, and are composed of this stuff, there is more to us than meets the eye.

              Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

              Tag,

              Settle down ol man. Everyone knows you mean well and are very helpful and sometimes pull a leg or two.

              Now we also know when you are on those happy meals.
              Lol, after talking to Claude l usually have a gun and chocolate cake sitting on the dining table, (sorry in AU, we don't have guns, meat cleaver).

              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              The reality is we as humans are bumbling idiots... I would suggest every advancement is more than likely an accident. Fire... without question a lightening strike and a stick... how many times do you think the stick went out before they figured out how to harness "fire" I can only imagine more than a generation if not longer.

              Its not that Claude is stating we are all robots.. what he is suggesting is that we are oooo um "Victims" ( bad word choice ) of genetics, our environment, and a host of many other variables.. and with that we fall into very predictable patterns and as he is suggesting not only predictable, but pre determined patterns.

              And with that.. I really dont disagree ( to a point ) Step back not to far in history and as I had mentioned.. A son of a blacksmith was going to be a blacksmith.. the 1st son of a king would be king... More literal than today obviously.. you were born into your lifes future.

              I fall somewhere in the lines of believing both Free Will and Pre Determined paths exist simultaneously. Every thought IS NOT a free thought, and in turn every action is not a pre determined action. - But there is a whole lot of stupid from start to finish hahaha
              Finally, thank you, ok.

              So ok, anything we think is not conscious. And if our upbringing is crap then it is destined that we will murder.

              Yeah, l agree sounds silly, and if we start accepting this, then if someone has a criminal record they can kill and get away with it.

              And this also means that if someone who is living in abject poverty, and never gets a break, is destined for a lacrimal record to survive and eventually murder.

              That means that Joan Rivers, who was living in squalar, when everyone around her said she is too old, etc to get into tv presenting, should have done so, but she never gave up and succeeded.

              And Billy Joel committed himself to a mental institution, (that should have set him up on a path to ruin).

              This guy is a crackpot scientist making points for his next book or whatever, we see them all of the time for the latest stupid diet, or theory.

              And l agree with stupid, when some of the human race gets a hold of a theory full of holes, then some, well let's just say that discussions are impossible, hard evidence useless, and emotional rants based on no solid evidence eniviatable, since their ego's have something to grasp into.

              Same thing happens with cults that are falling apart, rather than saying, l got it wrong, fanatical babbling occurs instead.

              We can't discuss religion here, for the same, reasons.

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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                And l agree with stupid, when some of the human race gets a hold of a theory full of holes, then some, well let's just say that discussions are impossible, hard evidence useless, and emotional rants based on no solid evidence eniviatable, since their ego's have someone to grasp into.
                You're obviously referring to the fossil fools who believe that anthropogenic global warming is "crap". No amount of proof* will convince these bozos as they get their "news" and "information" from pedlars of lies and misinformation, such as FoxNews, the Daily Mail and the Herald Sun.

                * Like record temperatures being achieved year after year. Birds and flying mammals dying and falling from their perches due to the heat. Floods, fires, droughts, the list of proofs goes on and keeps getting added to each year. Still, they live in denial.

                Or maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps the theories full of holes that people emotionally rant about despite solid evidence refers to those that claim that psychics, ghosts, remote viewing and hotels on Mars are real.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  Or maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps the theories full of holes that people emotionally rant about despite solid evidence refers to those that claim that psychics, ghosts, remote viewing and hotels on Mars are real.
                  Well what can l say, what l said before is self evident, and l may have been talking about flat earthers.

                  Hotels on Mars, no l can't provide 100% proof of that one.

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                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                    Hotels on Mars, no l can't provide 100% proof of that one.
                    Which implies that you can, and have provided 100% proof of psychics, ghosts and remote viewing.
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                    Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                      Which implies that you can, and have provided 100% proof of psychics, ghosts and remote viewing.
                      You have obviously never been to the booking site.

                      https://www.redplanethotels.com/

                      Not an affiliate link
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                      • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                        You have obviously never been to the booking site.

                        https://www.redplanethotels.com/

                        Not an affiliate link

                        Hmm, I wonder if those cuties come with the room?
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                  • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    What stuff? I'm going to the trouble of addressing each "point" you made, because it may steer someone in the right direction.

                    Of course we are conscious. The fact that our thoughts and reactions are 100% predictable (given enough information) doesn't mean we aren't conscious.

                    No. it means we are responsible for our actions. And laws affect how we act. The fact that our actions are predictable (down to the atomic level). We are punished for our actions, not for our mental make up.

                    No. (by the way, did you mean "criminal" when you said "lacrimal"?) Our upbringing is one of millions of factors that determine our future. Intelligence, environment, location, genetics, education, many other factors matter. But this isn't what was being discussed.

                    The whole point of the thread is that on an atomic level, everything that has happened in the past...in the universe...is what determines what happens next. It's a law of physics. It's what makes math work. And this mass, velocity, and direction of every atomic particle in the universe, determines what happens in the future....everywhere...forever. And that includes all the neural activity of our brains.
                    Ok, fair enough, Claude, my apologies for making an incorrect assumption, and thankyou for the clarification.

                    "eniviatable" is not a word.
                    It is at 3am, lol.

                    "Emotional rants". I want to address that.

                    You, and two other forum members have somehow come to the conclusion that you will upset me by calling a post (or statement) by me "emotional". It's meant insult me. It doesn't. And the fact that it's not accurate, makes the insult even more obvious...and silly.. This is the kind of thing kids do when they get frustrated...when they are out of their depth, and can't argue using a well structured argument.

                    To me, it has the emotional impact of a 5 year old calling me a "doo doo head".
                    Yes exactly! And l wouldn't say that you discuss things here in an emotional bender type state.

                    Absolutely no idea why you are saying that..or what you mean.

                    Please....I'm begging you. Just look up "Laplace's demon" and it will explain everything I've said in a more detailed manner. Read Free Will by Sam Harris.

                    And these meaningless exchanges can stop. Or at least I can stop posting my "Emotional rants".
                    I looked it up meaningless exchanges on hold.

                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                    You have obviously never been to the booking site.

                    https://www.redplanethotels.com/

                    Not an affiliate link
                    Geesh it is not like l am saying that Mars has rain, and plant and animal life with three advanced races living on its surface, heaven forbid.



                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    If you're so smart, why can't you spell "Whatty"?
                    Thanks Dan, Rectal Oral Disorder is a serious affliction, and not even military grade adult, XXXXXXL diapers is a cure all.

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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Claude said..

                    "The whole point of the thread is that on an atomic level, everything that has happened in the past...in the universe...is what determines what happens next. It's a law of physics. It's what makes math work. And this mass, velocity, and direction of every atomic particle in the universe, determines what happens in the future....everywhere...forever. And that includes all the neural activity of our brains."

                    And that would likely remain true even if every permutation of decision making were being played out simultaneously in a universe along multiple timelines or dimensions within that universe. Each one would be predictable in itself.

                    If the infinite multiple "physical" universe theory were true however, it would cloud the issue. Because, and only because of it's infinity. Any collision or interference either close up or indirectly would cause a change in predictability. To know the knock on effect of interference from an indeterminate amount of of universes would be nigh impossible to fathom.

                    If you have only one linear timestream in our universe and know the position of every particle and it's speed, direction etc, plus it's relationship to others, but if it occasionally changed direction for no reason, then you might consider interference from outside,

                    All fun speculation
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  Or maybe I misinterpreted your post. Perhaps the theories full of holes that people emotionally rant about despite solid evidence refers to those that claim that psychics, ghosts, remote viewing and hotels on Mars are real.
                  The stupidity of human kind to THINK they have created global warming, and could actually stop it is the funny part... The last ice age was created by GLOBAL WARMING - look it up.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                Gee, l am glad the guy below explains it.

                And l am saying that since we are conscious, and are composed of this stuff, there is more to us than meets the eye.:
                What stuff? I'm going to the trouble of addressing each "point" you made, because it may steer someone in the right direction.




                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                So ok, anything we think is not conscious. And if our upbringing is crap then it is destined that we will murder.:
                Of course we are conscious. The fact that our thoughts and reactions are 100% predictable (given enough information) doesn't mean we aren't conscious.



                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                Yeah, l agree sounds silly, and if we start accepting this, then if someone has a criminal record they can kill and get away with it.:
                No. it means we are responsible for our actions. And laws affect how we act. The fact that our actions are predictable (down to the atomic level), doesn't mean we can act any way we want. We are punished for our actions, not for our mental make up.



                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                And this also means that if someone who is living in abject poverty, and never gets a break, is destined for a lacrimal record to survive and eventually murder.:
                No. (by the way, did you mean "criminal" when you said "lacrimal"?) Our upbringing is one of millions of factors that determine our future. Intelligence, environment, location, genetics, education, many other factors matter. But this isn't what was being discussed.

                The whole point of the thread is that on an atomic level, everything that has happened in the past...in the universe...is what determines what happens next. It's a law of physics. It's what makes math work. And this mass, velocity, and direction of every atomic particle in the universe, determines what happens in the future....everywhere...forever. And that includes all the neural activity of our brains.

                I don't think I can explain it any clearer than that.


                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                That means that Joan Rivers, who was living in squalar, when everyone around her said she is too old, etc to get into tv presenting, should have done so, but she never gave up and succeeded.:
                No. And this has nothing to do with the discussion of free will.


                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                And Billy Joel committed himself to a mental institution, (that should have set him up on a path to ruin).:
                No. And again, nothing to do with the discussion of free will.



                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post


                And l agree with stupid, when some of the human race gets a hold of a theory full of holes, then some, well let's just say that discussions are impossible, hard evidence useless, and emotional rants based on no solid evidence eniviatable, since their ego's have something to grasp into.:
                "eniviatable" is not a word.

                "Emotional rants". I want to address that.

                You, and two other forum members have somehow come to the conclusion that you will upset me by calling a post (or statement) by me "emotional". It's meant insult me. It doesn't. And the fact that it's not accurate, makes the insult even more obvious...and silly.. This is the kind of thing kids do when they get frustrated...when they are out of their depth, and can't argue using a well structured argument.

                To me, it has the emotional impact of a 5 year old calling me a "doo doo head".



                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                Same thing happens with cults that are falling apart, rather than saying, l got it wrong, fanatical babbling occurs instead.
                :
                Absolutely no idea why you are saying that..or what you mean.

                Please....I'm begging you. Just look up "Laplace's demon" and it will explain everything I've said in a more detailed manner. Read Free Will by Sam Harris.

                And these meaningless exchanges can stop. Or at least I can stop posting my "Emotional rants".
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Or at least I can stop posting my "Emotional rants".
                  Please do. You don't have to be an expert in floccinaucinihilipilification to weigh the merits of your posts.
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                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    floccinaucinihilipilification
                    Looks like Mr Riffle has started reading that dictionary he stands on to reach the kitchen sink.
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                  • Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    Please do. You don't have to be an expert in floccinaucinihilipilification to weigh the merits of your posts.
                    My posts may not weigh more than your posts. But they are taller....much taller.

                    Whaty already said something similar. Proof that we are not just smart...we are geniuses...and very stable geniuses at that.