Remembrance Day - Short Memories?

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This is a post about History and society, not politics. If the Mod's feel it goes too far in that direction though with this post or the replies, I understand if it is removed/deleted.

I just wanted to remind peole of the significance of today, remembering the fallen from the 1st World War. The last three men who took part in that conflict in Britain passed away this year.

Here is Harry Patch, our last veteran and some of his last recorded interview:



If you watch the interview, I am sure many of you will agree he was a dignified man.

There are still many heroes among us from WWII although their numbers are starting to dwindle as well.

I like the fact we hold remembrance services etc and have worn my poppy with pride the last couple of weeks. I am grateful for the sacrifice that those generations made for my generation and the many other future and present generations. We have all benefited from their sacrifice.

As a 22-year-old, I was disappointed on the morning commute today to see so few of my peers and younger generations not wearing poppies. In fact, spotting which commuters had poppies was like a game of "Where's Wally" (I appreciate some of those poppies will be hidden under coats).

The point of this post is this:

The majority of people I have seen in acts of remembrance and wearing poppies are usually middle-aged to older men. That's the braod demographic I can identify from two weeks of poppy spotting!


My worry is, after my generation, or maybe earlier than that, will remembrance be a thing of the past? Will the younger generations take for granted the sacrifices made for them? We live a very sheltered, comfortable and happy existence in comparison to the hardships of the World War times. I am grateful for it and mindful of it.

I wonder as well what those War vets think of the youth today? The youth that swaggers round like wannabe gangsters, threatenting to knife, shoot and kill people if they are looked at the wrong way. The youth that seem to think that the World owes them some kind of a living.

Not all youths are like this, but there is a huge proportion of them that do live like this, and for those in my generation and younger who are smart enough not to act like this, I still get a feeling that they don't appreciate how lucky they are, and maybe this is bourne of ignorance?

I don't know. I am rambling. I just wonder what the heroes of the World Wars would make of the way society has turned out, and I'd also love some of these kid gangsters who call themselves "solja's" to join their peers on the front line and see what a real soldier looks like. I know I feel guilty that I am not doing my bit for the country when I hear of kids my age and younger dying in Afghanisthan etc.

I am still young enough to contribute though, and hopefully one day I will find it within me to do so.


Thanks to anyone who read this far, and feel free to leave your thoughts as well.


Here is to our fallen heroes. We will never forget what you gave us (I hope).
  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

    The majority of people I have seen in acts of remembrance and wearing poppies are usually middle-aged to older men. That's the braod demographic I can identify from two weeks of poppy spotting!

    My worry is, after my generation, or maybe earlier than that, will remembrance be a thing of the past? Will the younger generations take for granted the sacrifices made for them? We live a very sheltered, comfortable and happy existence in comparison to the hardships of the World War times. I am grateful for it and mindful of it.

    I wonder as well what those War vets think of the youth today? The youth that swaggers round like wannabe gangsters, threatenting to knife, shoot and kill people if they are looked at the wrong way. The youth that seem to think that the World owes them some kind of a living.
    People who were around during, or immediately after, any major conflict remember it more, and think it more significant, than those who come later. That's even the case with WW2, which came much later. After all, nobody under that age of 64 was even alive during that conflict, and how can anyone fully appreciate something they have no experience of?

    Back at that time, you can be sure there were people who lamented the lack of appreciation for those who fought in major 19th century conflicts, like the Crimean and Boer Wars.

    In time to come, WW1 and WW2 will mean as little to people as the Crimean War does now. Similarly, modern conflicts like those in Iraq, Darfur, Kosovo, Eritrea, Afganistan, and Israel will all be forgotten too.

    And that's how it should be. After all, it's fine to honour war heroes, but for how long? Should the heros of the Crimean War still be honoured today? Or, going further back, should we still be honouring the soldiers from earlier conflicts. The Crusades, for example? Or even earlier still?

    And, for what it's worth, every generation thinks the one that comes after them has it easy, and has no appreciation for the sacrifices that gave them the lives they live.

    And it's true, in most cases. But why would anyone want it to be any different? Personally, I, for one, want my children to have an easier life than I do, just as I have an easier life than my father did. Whether they appreciate what I've done to give it to them is immaterial. I'm sure they probably will, but I wouldn't want them honouring and thanking me forevermore for it. I'd prefer if they got on with living the best life they can.

    And I have no doubt Harry Patch would say the same.

    Regards,
    Tommy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
    Apparently it has been a record year for Poppy sales in the UK,
    with some £50million raised to support service personnel and
    their families.

    One of the main reasons that you see fewer people wearing the Poppy
    is that far fewer places allow Poppy sellers to operate .... or provide the
    room for placement of Poppies and a donation tin/box. The reasons given for this sad situation are various and largely unjustifiable imho.

    Those of us who have been touched by war do not forget.
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    Interesting facts Mike. Appreciate the input.


    Thomas, valid point.

    However, I think the World Wars are a lot more relevant in terms of the technology that was created from them and the profound impact they had on the way we live today. They changed everything about the way the World works, and brought about huge bodies like the UN etc.

    I think every generation should get it easier as well, but they should also take advantage of the benefits they have recieved. I don't think is too much to ask to honour and remember those who made this way of life possible by taking a few minutes or an hour or two out of every year to remember them.

    I come from a military family, so maybe that changs my perspective (although I am sure you, yourself have military relatives as well).

    I think all the servicemen who sacrifice to protect our way of life should be remembered etc, but in particular, the World Wars. They were such huge events and have had such an incredible impact on things.

    Was just my 2 cents.

    Like an old man, I am just tired of seeing respect being eroded from society. I am particularly tired of people who have contributed nothing but negativity to society expecting more and more from it.

    Just thought this would be a good place to rant.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Those who take the time to study history will learn just how very costly and fragile freedom is. Any of the major wars fought even in recent history could very easily have had a different outcome and changed the lives we live now dramatically.

      Even if the Crimean and Boer Wars had ended differently, we most likely would not be enjoying the freedoms that we have now. We had many, many close calls. For example, few people realize that Winston Churchill fought as a lieutenant in the British army during the Boer War. He was injured and taken as a prisoner of war. Fortunately for us all he survived and later became Prime Minister as one of the greatest leaders of WWII.

      We must not forget those who died sacrificing for much of what we now take for granted, but also realize how many times we came close to losing everything. History has proven that freedom is not free, but requires very costly vigilence and sacrifice. Don't ever forget that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas
        Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

        However, I think the World Wars are a lot more relevant in terms of the technology that was created from them and the profound impact they had on the way we live today. They changed everything about the way the World works, and brought about huge bodies like the UN etc.

        ... I think all the servicemen who sacrifice to protect our way of life should be remembered etc, but in particular, the World Wars. They were such huge events and have had such an incredible impact on things.
        All very true, but previous conflicts utterly changed the world too. For example, the Napoleonic Wars totally changed it. They ended the Holy Roman Empire after nearly a thousand years, strangled the Spanish Empire (leading the the present geopolitics of South America), and led to the rise of Britain as the superpower of the 19th century. Events like those were as huge and world-changing at the time, as the creation of the UN and the invention of nuclear weapons were during/after WW2. We attach more significance to WW1 and 2 because we are closer to them (chronologically) and their effects haven't faded in time as much (yet). In the same way, there may be some future conflict that will change the present order of things and, afterwards, people will say, "This was a huge, world-changing, event... far more so than WW2".

        That's not meant to belittle the sacrifices made by people who fought in WW1 and WW2, but, rather, to point out that, as bad as they were, in the grand scheme of things, they're just (some of) the latest conflicts in the long history of war.

        Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

        I don't think is too much to ask to honour and remember those who made this way of life possible by taking a few minutes or an hour or two out of every year to remember them. I come from a military family, so maybe that changs my perspective (although I am sure you, yourself have military relatives as well).
        No, I don't think it's too much to ask, but it shouldn't be expected forever. In fact, I don't think it should be expected at all. Many people do honour and remember those who make sacrifices anyway, which is good, but many people don't... and that's okay too. Actually, I think it's more than okay... I think it's great!

        Before you think I'm talking through my hat, let me tell you why I think that: I don't just come from a military family, but have personally served my country at a time when some very nasty people wanted nothing more than to completely obliterate it by force of arms, and replace it with a demented quasi-Communist police state. The threat was such we weren't just close to the precipice, but were actually dangling over it, just about holding on with our little finger. Had we let go, we'd be living in a very different place today. But we didn't and, because of that, Ireland is now one of the most politically-stable countries in the world. (I recall a very recent analysis that placed it in the top 10, far ahead of countries like France, the US, Japan... even Switzerland).

        However, nowadays, many younger people have very little appreciation or understanding of just how serious it actually was. They don't even know there was a precipice, let alone that we nearly fell off it. Personally, I'm proud of the (very) small part I played in making it happen but, to me, the fact that the threat was so completely eradicated that many have practically forgotten it's very existence in less than a generation is a far better outcome than expecting people, who may not even have been alive at the time, to endlessly honour and remember the people involved.

        Regards,
        Tommy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I am sorry I couldn't watch the lovely videos Mark Andrews posted a few days ago about the memorial services in the UK. It made me cry and so I just can't afford to get off into it.

    I know in this perverse world war has always been 'necessary' and it doesn't get any less so as time goes on. I know you can't just lie down and die but have to defend your position.

    I think people like myself would rather be in a sense in denial than to really think about how perverted violence really is. There is hardly any other violent crime that is more sickening than the mass murder that is war.

    I appreciate the supreme sacrifice that has been made but just wish it wasn't so...
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Originally Posted by EndGame View Post


    I don't know. I am rambling. I just wonder what the heroes of the World Wars would make of the way society has turned out, and I'd also love some of these kid gangsters who call themselves "solja's" to join their peers on the front line and see what a real soldier looks like. I know I feel guilty that I am not doing my bit for the country when I hear of kids my age and younger dying in Afghanisthan etc.

    I am still young enough to contribute though, and hopefully one day I will find it within me to do so.
    (I hope).

    There have been many members of my family who have been in
    combat going back to WW 2. Unfortunately, I did not have the
    chance to know them all.

    I entered the military when I was 17. I joined the Air Force and
    was in a technical field. There was a time when it bothered me
    a little because my older brother was a Marine who had fought
    in Viet Nam in 1966. I felt a little guilty because of what I was
    doing compared to what he had done.

    One day I finally talked to my brother about it. He was incredibly
    gracious. He told me it didn't matter one bit, and that we each
    contribute according to many things: talents, interests, abilities, etc.
    He pointed out that the military is so huge and requires very many
    different levels of involvement by people which is true, of course.

    As you can imagine, my brother's experience over there was a
    life changing experience for him. I have an uncle who died in 1999,
    I think. He was also a Marine who joined in 1943, again I think. But
    he was in combat in Korea and Viet Nam. He was in VN at the same
    time my brother was there.

    Both of them, I'm sure, would tell you to just follow your heart and do
    what you feel is best. I've heard these words from my brother to
    other people.
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  • Profile picture of the author morgano1132
    In the my remembrance the 14th April of 1942, is the day when titanic was sank i cant forget that hot and cold day,
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by morgano1132 View Post

      In the my remembrance the 14th April of 1942, is the day when titanic was sank i cant forget that hot and cold day,
      It was 1912. How soon we forget.

      Perhaps you mean the British freighter "Empire Thrush", or the US freighter "Margaret" sunk by German torpedos that day? (There is no record of any survivors)
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful and intelligent replies to this thread. And I am grateful for the time everyone took out to reply and I appreciate the input and sharing of personal experiences, even if you were not in agreement with me.

    I am going through some what of an identity crisis I think, I haven't contributed enough to society in my own head, and want to. How I do that though, has not revealed itself to me.

    I also look at a lot of the people and youth in my generation, and observe how they behave etc, and I often wonder whether we are doing justice to the sacrfices that have been made and are being made by others for us.

    It's all my personal issues really, but I just wanted a place to express my feelings somewhere about the importance of remembrance. I am glad I was able to here among my fellow Warriors.



    Thanks for reading and educating me a little.
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    • Profile picture of the author Patrician
      Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

      I
      I am going through some what of an identity crisis I think, I haven't contributed enough to society in my own head, and want to. How I do that though, has not revealed itself to me.


      You know what, EndGame? Sometimes the most profuond question has the most simple answer. Something you can do right now is just smile at people. You have no idea how many people are suffering inside, and who are alone and feel unloved.

      There are days when I can make eye contact with people just in passing and just smile - I love to watch their faces brighten and most of the time they smile back.

      Yeh - even just a few seconds that you have made a change in someone's life to make them feel like they are not invisible is doing something positive with your life.

      I get a total charge if it is someone elderly or that you can tell is used to being looked at like they are dirty because of race or whatever. They actually look so surprised to be smiled at and for a moment I can feel loved! So it is a good exchange...

      My cynical side:

      Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

      I also look at a lot of the people and youth in my generation, and observe how they behave etc, and I often wonder whether we are doing justice to the sacrfices that have been made and are being made by others for us.
      I hear you there - a truly chilling thought is, as time goes on, they are the only ones left to 'defend' us if we need it. That is when I welcome the theory that soon we will have the last war on earth and we will all be gone.

      ... and it will be for the better.
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