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Working From Home Ending Pushback By Employees

by lanfear63
60 replies
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Apple are a high profile company who's CEO want their employees back in the office, but many employees are happier working from home having got used to it and working out the logistics and are unhappy with the call. Its not just Apple either who are experiencing this. I worked from home for 6 months and generally no problems.

Article: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article...-to-the-office

What's your opinion about it?
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    My d-in-law has worked from home now - and supervised her department - for a year and was told in April they would be allowed to continue from home.



    However, University changed that and all employees must report back to their offices second week of July. I think some businesses will not be able to justify mid management jobs if employees are not on the premises. Other businesses believe the interactions of employees is critical to the business.



    Employees will complain and demand - but these are people who were paid through the entire pandemic unlike tens of thousands of people who lost their jobs/income. Hard to feel too sorry for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      My d-in-law has worked from home now - and supervised her department - for a year and was told in April they would be allowed to continue from home.



      However, University changed that and all employees must report back to their offices second week of July. I think some businesses will not be able to justify mid management jobs if employees are not on the premises. Other businesses believe the interactions of employees is critical to the business.



      Employees will complain and demand - but these are people who were paid through the entire pandemic unlike tens of thousands of people who lost their jobs/income. Hard to feel too sorry for them.
      As far as working from home, I will first note that for many employees, the scope of the work is suitable for it, as is the technology to enable it. Many people will just sit at their office desk all day anyway and not move from their computer or phone, I see no real reason why they cannot continue. If, and only if the work gets done and communication Is maintained. Periodic meetings can be done via webcam, we did that and no problems.

      But then you get the big Apple Park and other prestigious office buildings where the CEO wants to see them filled because they are paying for them, rather than see it as an opportunity to continue with a proven way of working and can downsize the locations and save money. I call that just a prestige thing ingrained into their work ethic that they want to keep which is not forward thinking.

      It also really levels the playing field. While some people hide at work and are lazy and find ways to do less, the output from working from home can be much more clearly seen. It also avoids the dreaded office politics and tensions to some extent. also, all these middle managers breathing down your neck. When I did not come back due to Covid a lot of that went away.

      All this crap that Tim Cook said about it stifling creativity is only applicable to the people paid to create, not the average office assistant.

      The only thing I missed was the social thing, although not really that strong, it still existed, you could chat to people.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Jonas Phil VA
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        As far as working from home, I will first note that for many employees, the scope of the work is suitable for it, as is the technology to enable it. Many people will just sit at their office desk all day anyway and not move from their computer or phone, I see no real reason why they cannot continue. If, and only if the work gets done and communication Is maintained. Periodic meetings can be done via webcam, we did that and no problems.

        But then you get the big Apple Park and other prestigious office buildings where the CEO wants to see them filled because they are paying for them, rather than see it as an opportunity to continue with a proven way of working and can downsize the locations and save money. I call that just a prestige thing ingrained into their work ethic that they want to keep which is not forward thinking.

        It also really levels the playing field. While some people hide at work and are lazy and find ways to do less, the output from working from home can be much more clearly seen. It also avoids the dreaded office politics and tensions to some extent. also, all these middle managers breathing down your neck. When I did not come back due to Covid a lot of that went away.

        All this crap that Tim Cook said about it stifling creativity is only applicable to the people paid to create, not the average office assistant.

        The only thing I missed was the social thing, although not really that strong, it still existed, you could chat to people.
        And having people continue working from home is an added cost. It's not like businesses can sell their offices or end their leases quickly.
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by John Jonas Phil VA View Post

          And having people continue working from home is an added cost. It's not like businesses can sell their offices or end their leases quickly.
          It should not add to the cost, stuff like less electricity and water used, personal insurance liability for employees in the building could be lessened. Offices could be rented out etc.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Jonas Phil VA
            I guess. Maybe it has also something to do with control?

            When your employees are in an office, it feels like you have control over them. They're all in a space that recognizes a power structure.

            But when employees work from home, you're not going to be the ultimate authority. And I think there's this irrational fear that if your employees work from home, they're going to do personal stuff on company time. Despite the fact that studies have shown that employees do that anyway even when they work in an office.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by John Jonas Phil VA View Post

              I guess. Maybe it has also something to do with control?

              When your employees are in an office, it feels like you have control over them. They're all in a space that recognizes a power structure.

              But when employees work from home, you're not going to be the ultimate authority. .
              "Control"? "Ultimate authority"? "Power structure"? I'm not sure who thinks like that. I suspect that this is how some employees think the business owner thinks. Nearly all my friends own businesses. I don't know a single one that really thinks like that. You know who talks like that? Fictional characters.


              Originally Posted by John Jonas Phil VA View Post

              And I think there's this irrational fear that if your employees work from home, they're going to do personal stuff on company time. Despite the fact that studies have shown that employees do that anyway even when they work in an office.
              The fear isn't irrational. Employers are paying for the employee's time.

              When a person is working in my office, I can check their work in mid stream, answer their questions immediately, make instant adjustments in what they are doing, and know when they are done with a task.

              Like I said earlier, jobs like order entry can be done from anywhere, because the work keeps the employee exactly as busy as they would be at work.

              But even jobs where the employee is stuck at a computer all day, the employer (assuming they have a good relationship with their employee) can make immediate changes to what the employee is doing, with minimal interruption of his day.


              I get it. You sell off premises job time.

              I can only tell you this....if someone owns a business, and has employees, they know the value of having them in the next room, rather than at home.

              So...studies show that employees that work at home don't goof off any more than they would at work?

              I suppose that's possible for a very narrow range of jobs.

              But let's take a common one. Telemarketing. I've had people work from home, and had them work in the office. There is a world of difference in productivity. If you own a business, and need to hire telemarketers, the only reason you would hire them off premesis...is that you don't have an office location. Meaning you have no choice but to hire remotely.

              My guess is that one of these differences in production, when working at a business location, is the lack of constant interruptions that you would get at home. And from my perspective, fewer stories (as to why they aren't getting the job done) will be believed if they are sitting in the same room as you are.

              And let's be real. Some jobs aren't fun. Telemarketing is at the top of that list. And without personal supervision, the temptation to just...not...do...it...is too great.

              One thing I know (OK, I know more than one thing) Employees believe that employers think in a way that they do not...because they have never been employers. But employers know how employees think, because they have been an employee before, usually for years.

              The difference in perception is like night and day.


              Added later; One of my many flaws has to deal with how I think of people I hire to work with me. I always see them as a partner, working with me to achieve a common goal. I think that way, despite decades of consistently being proven wrong about that.

              I've never been able to get an employee to see this relationship as a collaboration toward a common goal. To even my best employees, the job was a necessary thing to do to get paid. Nice people, good workers, smart. But they don't see the business relationship like I do.
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                "Control"? "Ultimate authority"? "Power structure"? I'm not sure who thinks like that. I suspect that this is how some employees think the business owner thinks. Nearly all my friends own businesses. I don't know a single one that really thinks like that. You know who talks like that? Fictional characters.
                I think some people in middle management think (and act) like that. They're still employees with a boss or bosses, so they think that having authority over others is mainly about control.

                But nobody starts a business in order to build a power structure or have authority over their staff.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                  I think some people in middle management think (and act) like that. They're still employees with a boss or bosses, so they think that having authority over others is mainly about control.

                  But nobody starts a business in order to build a power structure or have authority over their staff.
                  Agreed. I was talking about business owners.

                  But the single reason I always hated selling to large companies wasn't the CEO, it was the layers of sycophant's that are only a few steps removed from the labor force. The constant fear of making a decision, fear of looking bad to the CEO, and the sucking up to the CEO, while treating the lower level workers badly....Not the Boss, just employees with a little power. And they need the hierarchy, the structure. It's who they are. Most middle managers aren't like that, but there are enough.

                  People without any power in their lives, because of the company structure, they now have "power" over a group lower than themselves.. Most are great people, but it can bring out the worst impulses.

                  I've never seen these people do well with their own business. Although I have seen plenty of these middle managers do an excellent job where they are.
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              • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                "Control"?


                I've never been able to get an employee to see this relationship as a collaboration toward a common goal. To even my best employees, the job was a necessary thing to do to get paid. Nice people, good workers, smart. But they don't see the business relationship like I do.
                There is no common goal. The owner is trying to build the value of the business or at least make choices that keep the doors open.

                The employees in normal times because we are not in normal times now. The goal when it comes to work is to do the work to keep the job what they feel they are being paid for

                We are not in normal times though referring to large amounts of the workforce as non essential for over a year. We now see the blowback

                People had to find other ways to get by or make extra money and they had time to figure it out

                I know the owners/entrepreneurs do not understand the think of most people who work to make a certain amount of money or get a certain lifestyle

                Then they stop working
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                  I know the owners/entrepreneurs do not understand the think of most people who work to make a certain amount of money or get a certain lifestyle

                  Then they stop working
                  Yes. The owner's goal is to build a business. The employee's goal is to make a living and not get fired.

                  And, as Frank Donovan pointed out, there is this half way point of middle managers.

                  People who still think like employees, but with more responsibility. They usually have more brains, talent, and education than most...but still think like employees.


                  When I say "Think like an employee" it may sound like an insult. It isn't. It's that there are different ways to see the relationship in a company. And I've learned that people who are paid for their time, see that relationship differently than the owner.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Yes.


                    When I say "Think like an employee" it may sound like an insult. It isn't. It's that there are different ways to see the relationship in a company. And I've learned that people who are paid for their time, see that relationship differently than the owner.
                    We are having two different conversations

                    So there is no insult . You are correct it is probably better to have many employees in the office or go back in the office

                    But I am talking about why many may quit and work out other work arrangements that modern technology allow where they sell time outside a traditional employee/employer arrangements
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                      We are having two different conversations

                      So there is no insult . You are correct it is probably better to have many employees in the office or go back in the office

                      But I am talking about why many may quit and work out other work arrangements that modern technology allow where they sell time outside a traditional employee/employer arrangements
                      You handled that like a pro.

                      Added a minute later.
                      I reread the exchange. I have a habit of reading someone's post, and then I start to comment...but then expand my answer into a different area. Sometimes, it's got little to do with the comment I am addressing.

                      And sometimes, I think about answering the post, and before I start typing, my mind has already gone past the original thought. And...(this should surprise nobody) I'll forget to reread the post I was commenting on, and not notice that I'm actually talking about a different subject.

                      And in the rare moments that I remember to reread the post....I'll delete large sections of my answer, because they have nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

                      Anyway, like I said, you handled it well. Thanks.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        You handled that like a pro.

                        Added a minute later.
                        I reread the exchange. I have a habit of reading someone's post, and then I start to comment...but then expand my answer into a different area. Sometimes, it's got little to do with the comment I am addressing.

                        And sometimes, I think about answering the post, and before I start typing, my mind has already gone past the original thought. And...(this should surprise nobody) I'll forget to reread the post I was commenting on, and not notice that I'm actually talking about a different subject.

                        And in the rare moments that I remember to reread the post....I'll delete large sections of my answer, because they have nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

                        Anyway, like I said, you handled it well. Thanks.
                        "I'll delete large sections of my answer, because they have nothing to do with the subject being discussed."

                        Mercifully, it happens on rare occasions.

                        So putting aside that you would appreciate creative insults from employees but would have difficulty putting that over. Why did you not make Andrew a better offer if he was that good. What incentives other than a straight salary raise would you have dreamed up to keep him. How could you have got him more engaged in the business that would have been mutually beneficial?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          "I'll delete large sections of my answer, because they have nothing to do with the subject being discussed."

                          Mercifully, it happens on rare occasions.
                          HA! I love being handled. Anyone that can get the better of me, or burst my bubble....makes me smile.


                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          So putting aside that you would appreciate creative insults from employees but would have difficulty putting that over. Why did you not make Andrew a better offer if he was that good. What incentives other than a straight salary raise would you have dreamed up to keep him. How could you have got him more engaged in the business that would have been mutually beneficial?
                          That's a good question. I was paying him $25 an hour (maybe 10 years ago). But I only needed him about 20 hours a week.

                          He was offered a job (I'm sure he was looking) with a large company for about the same money an hour (to start), but it offered vacation time, sick days and benefits....and full time employment.

                          His big concern was that his wife was going to have a baby, and he wasn't sure I'd still need him in a year. The truth is, he needed more job security and benefits than I was prepared to give.

                          It wasn't the job, it was the security that he needed. And I couldn't guarantee it. Had he not gotten married and had a child, he would have stayed with me, I'm sure. The truth is, he was too talented to work for me in a job that was part time with no benefits. I offered to make him a part owner in our business, but that's when he told me that he wasn't business owner type, but more of a worker bee.

                          He ended up training the guy I hired to replace him (another good guy and worker). And that guy eventually went to California to be with his girlfriend.

                          I offered to be his girlfriend, but he turned me down.
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                          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            HA! I love being handled. Anyone that can get the better of me, or burst my bubble....makes me smile.




                            That's a good question. I was paying him $25 an hour (maybe 10 years ago). But I only needed him about 20 hours a week.

                            He was offered a job (I'm sure he was looking) with a large company for about the same money an hour (to start), but it offered vacation time, sick days and benefits....and full time employment.

                            His big concern was that his wife was going to have a baby, and he wasn't sure I'd still need him in a year. The truth is, he needed more job security and benefits than I was prepared to give.

                            It wasn't the job, it was the security that he needed. And I couldn't guarantee it. Had he not gotten married and had a child, he would have stayed with me, I'm sure. The truth is, he was too talented to work for me in a job that was part time with no benefits. I offered to make him a part owner in our business, but that's when he told me that he wasn't business owner type, but more of a worker bee.

                            He ended up training the guy I hired to replace him (another good guy and worker). And that guy eventually went to California to be with his girlfriend.

                            I offered to be his girlfriend, but he turned me down.
                            The rejection must have been devastating.

                            Oh, so only part time. Not very appealing. Perhaps if you liked him that much you could have let go of one of your whipping boys (if you had any) and keep him full time. But, you were only small, not you, your business. A volatile situation to work for.

                            I worked for a Ma and Pop computer store back in the mid eighties full time, for 4 years. Eventually they had to close because business dropped off as the big box stores started selling them big time. For a time, our specialist knowledge and insights worked pretty well, but times change.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                              The rejection must have devastating.

                              Oh, so only part time. Not very appealing. Perhaps if you liked him that much you could have let go of one of your whipping boys (if you had any) and keep him full time. But, you were only small, not you, your business. A volatile situation to work for.

                              .
                              I thin Claude mentioned once that his business was at a point he could grow but it would mean a lot more work for the same net money in his pocket.

                              From my observation he has that business optimized and built his speaking/guru business from there

                              Part of my theory is entrepreneur build business around the lifestyle they want Claude really enjoys selling and eating almost as much so the speaking business let him travel and sell and he can write off the buffet or food cost while he travels

                              But that's only theory Claude was a travel foodi before the phrase existed
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                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                                I thin Claude mentioned once that his business was at a point he could grow but it would mean a lot more work for the same net money in his pocket.

                                From my observation he has that business optimized and built his speaking/guru business from there
                                That was between 2001 and 2015 or so.. I made a conscious decision not to grow the retail store to a million a year. It would have meant 4 times the work for 10% more money.

                                Now, the forces of a shrinking customer base (for local specialty stores) and my own lack of interest in the store, means I'll close it by this time next year. Maybe a tad sooner.

                                I essentially retired from speaking about 2015. But now, I have one more real effort...to get it all out of my system.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                  That was between

                                  I essentially retired from speaking about 2015. But now, I have one more real effort...to get it all out of my system.
                                  Out of your system that is a good one give it 1 or two weeks before your wife catches you doing a sales presentation to one of the pets
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                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                  That was between 2001 and 2015 or so.. I made a conscious decision not to grow the retail store to a million a year. It would have meant 4 times the work for 10% more money.

                                  Now, the forces of a shrinking customer base (for local specialty stores) and my own lack of interest in the store, means I'll close it by this time next year. Maybe a tad sooner.

                                  I essentially retired from speaking about 2015. But now, I have one more real effort...to get it all out of my system.
                                  You may be interested in my retirement guide I'm putting together. A few highlight observations:

                                  It's a constant battle to keep up with what day of the week it is and the time of day. The fact it gets dark at some point is helpful

                                  You really do need 7.5 to 8 hours sleep and you start to resent that as a waste of non waking time to do nothing in.

                                  An occasional cockroach or flying insect in your place becomes a major incident.

                                  You do need to do at least some exercise, otherwise you seize up and feel lethargic.

                                  You procrastinate more about getting anything done, especially dealing with government institutions.

                                  You lose weight as eating becomes more of a chore, and taking vitamins is a good idea and you will see your fingernails and toenails looking more firm and healthy looking.

                                  You may suffer the urge to do a makeover of your place or keep it clean and tidy. However, you may go the other way.

                                  TV and internet become more of a big deal and blessing to keep you stimulated and entertained. You curse when your net connection goes down for more than 30 seconds.

                                  All those things you said you will put off until your retirement continue to be put off.

                                  Look out for more gems in my forthcoming book: "Guide to Retirement", coming soon, If I can bring myself to lift a finger to write it.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                    You may be interested in my retirement guide I'm putting together. A few highlight observations:

                                    It's a constant battle to keep up with what day of the week it is and the time of day. The fact it gets dark at some point is helpful

                                    You really do need 7.5 to 8 hours sleep and you start to resent that as a waste of non waking time to do nothing in.

                                    An occasional cockroach or flying insect in your place becomes a major incident.

                                    You do need to do at least some exercise, otherwise you seize up and feel lethargic.

                                    You procrastinate more about getting anything done, especially dealing with government institutions.

                                    You lose weight as eating becomes more of a chore, and taking vitamins is a good idea and you will see your fingernails and toenails looking more firm and healthy looking.

                                    You may suffer the urge to do a makeover of your place or keep it clean and tidy. However, you may go the other way.

                                    TV and internet become more of a big deal and blessing to keep you stimulated and entertained. You curse when your net connection goes down for more than 30 seconds.

                                    All those things you said you will put off until your retirement continue to be put off.

                                    Look out for more gems in my forthcoming book: "Guide to Retirement", coming soon, If I can bring myself to lift a finger to write it.
                                    The good news (for me, anyway) is that retirement won't look much different from what I'm doing now...except I won't be at the store.

                                    Last March, we closed for 6 weeks, and it took just a few days before I knew I wasn't quite ready to retire.

                                    But I enjoyed reading your list.

                                    My guess is that I'll slowly lose interest in anything except what's on Netflix and what my cats are doing.

                                    My wife will probably invent changes...costly changes...she will find absolutely necessary to make our home presentable.

                                    When my Mom was retired and on her own, she invented lots of construction projects she would have to hire out. It kept her mind busy, and it felt like she had company.

                                    Me? I can see taking longer and longer naps...until the smell makes them carry my carcass out of there.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      The good news (for me, anyway) is that retirement won't look much different from what I'm doing now...except I won't be at the store.

                                      Last March, we closed for 6 weeks, and it took just a few days before I knew I wasn't quite ready to retire.

                                      But I enjoyed reading your list.

                                      My guess is that I'll slowly lose interest in anything except what's on Netflix and what my cats are doing.

                                      My wife will probably invent changes...costly changes...she will find absolutely necessary to make our home presentable.

                                      When my Mom was retired and on her own, she invented lots of construction projects she would have to hire out. It kept her mind busy, and it felt like she had company.

                                      Me? I can see taking longer and longer naps...until the smell makes them carry my carcass out of there.
                                      I think you will be surprised, the sheer act of having to get up relatively early and go to the store, (even if you appraise it's running and maintenance to be easy) suddenly taken away from your routine is going to be a bit of a shock to your system. The six weeks you spent without it still fall into a novelty/vacation feeling, but wait 6 months to a year without it.

                                      It's great that you have another person to share it all with, that helps a lot and keeps you more active. But, over time, you may start to get some of the symptoms I am experiencing. The interactions with other people drop off, the tiny differences you make to their lives, the slightest challenges to sell in your case are gone. (probably your worst thing to get over) The fact that even just in a small way, you matter a bit, now not so much.

                                      Despite me being fiercely stubborn and independent and for the most part, fine with my own company most of the time, these feelings still surface. I think I read a statistic that many people die just a few short years after retirement. Initially they have a blossoming of sorts, feel and look better, get more sleep, less stress. But after a few years of this the novelty wears off and they become despondent and feel that their lives have no purpose anymore, even if their job was not that great, it was something.

                                      So, a good idea to have hobbies that you are passionate about, join some institution where you can have interactions, keep the mind and body stimulated.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                        I think you will be surprised, the sheer act of having to get up relatively early and go to the store,

                                        So, a good idea to have hobbies that you are passionate about, join some institution where you can have interactions, keep the mind and body stimulated.
                                        Claude still has ways to earn money and never need to worry about living on a small social security check and probably has enough wealth the he can draw from it at a rate he can live comfortably and maybe still have it grow

                                        Even with you adjustment problems you are probably financially good for the foreseeable future, and not already calculating when the money will run out

                                        I know I focus way to much on how people's financial state effect most of their lives
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                                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                          Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                                          Claude still has ways to earn money and never need to worry about living on a small social security check and probably has enough wealth the he can draw from it at a rate he can live comfortably and maybe still have it grow

                                          Even with you adjustment problems you are probably financially good for the foreseeable future, and not already calculating when the money will run out

                                          I know I focus way to much on how people's financial state effect most of their lives
                                          I'm sure he does. I probably have enough till my demise. I'm not on the level of just paying my, rent, then buying baked beans and Vape juice and living frugally. I can go for the odd extravagance or vacation etc. Rather like having a reasonable salary for the rest of your, days, except I don't have to work for it. Neither rich or poor, just stable. But I must remember that and keep it in check, has to last. The cost of living will of course go up over the years

                                          When I retired I spent a little chunk on new clothes, Tech, utensils and furniture etc. Just to be up to date. Pretty much done with that now. So I now know roughly what I will really spend each month and it's not as much as I thought.

                                          So having done all that and knowing what it is, what would you be doing with yourself?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                            I'm sure he does.


                                            So having done all that and knowing what it is, what would you be doing with yourself?
                                            That's a question that can easily lead to TMI

                                            I'm 43 I want to live outside the USA in developing countries So the what will depend on the which country

                                            But the people doing it tend to all find some online work to do during the hottest part of the day so they are either in the apartments or a cafe or a co work space

                                            The people who do it also fall into group of other people doing it .

                                            The whole you make the average of the 5 people you spend the most time around was backwards you make a certain amount of money or do a certain kind of work you then hang around people doing about the same

                                            I'm sorry I can't answer in detail what I would do I have lived in several parts of the country the last 6 years and what I did was based on the climate /weather and what there was to do and how easy it was to get around

                                            I am also not a normal person so I am fine with changing everything possible every year or two
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
                                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                            I'm sure he does. I probably have enough till my demise.
                                            We all figure we have enough till our demise, but demise don't play by any kinda ENOUGH rules. Hence the monicker.

                                            Demise: It is time for your demise.

                                            Hapless Mortal: No it ain't.

                                            Demise: Yes it is.

                                            Hapless Mortal: No it ain't.

                                            [This continues for a couple more rounds before Hapless Mortal figures Demise is no clown.]

                                            Hapless Mortal: I have money. How much you want?

                                            Demise: My wanting is irrelevant.

                                            Hapless Mortal: Puppies? I can get you plenty puppies?

                                            Demise: Demise has no interest in puppies. I exist only to precipitate your demise.

                                            Hapless Mortal: Tough guy, huh? Well, if you're so frickin' powerful, why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

                                            Course'n we all know how this exchange ends ...
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                        I think you will be surprised, the sheer act of having to get up relatively early and go to the store, (even if you appraise it's running and maintenance to be easy) suddenly taken away from your routine is going to be a bit of a shock to your system. The six weeks you spent without it still fall into a novelty/vacation feeling, but wait 6 months to a year without it.

                                        It's great that you have another person to share it all with, that helps a lot and keeps you more active. But, over time, you may start to get some of the symptoms I am experiencing. The interactions with other people drop off, the tiny differences you make to their lives, the slightest challenges to sell in your case are gone. (probably your worst thing to get over) The fact that even just in a small way, you matter a bit, now not so much.

                                        Despite me being fiercely stubborn and independent and for the most part, fine with my own company most of the time, these feelings still surface. I think I read a statistic that many people die just a few short years after retirement. Initially they have a blossoming of sorts, feel and look better, get more sleep, less stress. But after a few years of this the novelty wears off and they become despondent and feel that their lives have no purpose anymore, even if their job was not that great, it was something.
                                        That entire post may be the most insightful thing I've read in quite a long time.

                                        The truth is, I haven't had to challenge myself at selling for quite a few years. In retail, I'm working way below my competence. In fact, I have to test myself occasionally...just to keep the rust off.

                                        And I'll be selling a sales training system in webinars and maybe live. But only for a few years.

                                        You? How could your life not have purpose? My life is better because you are in it. You're a good man. .

                                        Of course, I'm comparing you to Dan Riffle......so it's a low bar. In fact, everything Riffle owns must have a "Low" setting.


                                        Added later: I keep telling Cheryl that I'm going to start going to McDonalds at 6AM, to find that group of old men that sit together solving the world's problems.

                                        She asked "What will you do if none of them are gay?"
                                        (She obviously didn't really say that. Aren't I a stinker?)
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                                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                          That entire post may be the most insightful thing I've read in quite a long time.

                                          The truth is, I haven't had to challenge myself at selling for quite a few years. In retail, I'm working way below my competence. In fact, I have to test myself occasionally...just to keep the rust off.

                                          And I'll be selling a sales training system in webinars and maybe live. But only for a few years.

                                          You? How could your life not have purpose? My life is better because you are in it. You're a good man. .

                                          Of course, I'm comparing you to Dan Riffle......so it's a low bar. In fact, everything Riffle owns must have a "Low" setting.


                                          Added later: I keep telling Cheryl that I'm going to start going to McDonalds at 6AM, to find that group of old men that sit together solving the world's problems.

                                          She asked "What will you do if none of them are gay?"
                                          (She obviously didn't really say that. Aren't I a stinker?)
                                          If I have ever managed to "successfully" insult you, or made you think/rethink about something, just a quarter of one percent, then all is not lost. I still have "purpose"

                                          Dan Riffle is different. It's easier to look down on him.

                                          Webinar's eh. Ever thought of making instructional video's on selling as a course and putting them on places like Udemy? An interesting project that takes your you-tube promo vids idea to another level.

                                          I recently got an affiliate link via email from a guy who sends more interesting stuff. It makes a video using composite clips of real people to mouth the words of whatever text you put in. They appear in each video positioned where you want them, mouthing and saying whatever you want them to say in their own voice. You have a choice of about 10 people. You can also put the text up or pictures. Good stuff and you would not need to record anything. Also probably a lot of fun because you could make them say a load of outrageous stuff.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                            If I have ever managed to "successfully" insult you, or made you think/rethink about something, just a quarter of one percent, then all is not lost. I still have "purpose"

                                            Dan Riffle is different. It's easier to look down on him.

                                            Webinar's eh. Ever thought of making instructional video's on selling as a course and putting them on places like Udemy? An interesting project that takes your you-tube promo vids idea to another level.
                                            No. Although Udemy offers some great courses...very cheap.
                                            This is going to be at least 15 hours of instruction, along with a membership site where I can upload weekly updates and answer customer questions.

                                            And, I am selling it for either $997 or $1,997....not a Udemy price.

                                            I thought of offering it (at least the updates) in podcast form, with a subscription. But I haven't decided yet.

                                            My course is going to require a real sales presentation done by me. I'll have to answer objections live, and close on the webinar.

                                            Even a great sales letter won't do it. The marketing structure is already set up, along with the script for the sales presentation (webinar). The webinar is about an hour long, before I start interacting with the viewers.

                                            The webinar took far longer to put together than the course itself.

                                            I have a few joint venture partners waiting in the wings. And it will require joint venture partners...or a stage to pitch from to a receptive audience.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                              No. Although Udemy offers some great courses...very cheap.
                                              This is going to be at least 15 hours of instruction, along with a membership site where I can upload weekly updates and answer customer questions.

                                              And, I am selling it for either $997 or $1,997....not a Udemy price.

                                              I thought of offering it (at least the updates) in podcast form, with a subscription. But I haven't decided yet.

                                              My course is going to require a real sales presentation done by me. I'll have to answer objections live, and close on the webinar.

                                              Even a great sales letter won't do it. The marketing structure is already set up, along with the script for the sales presentation (webinar). The webinar is about an hour long, before I start interacting with the viewers.

                                              The webinar took far longer to put together than the course itself.

                                              I have a few joint venture partners waiting in the wings. And it will require joint venture partners...or a stage to pitch from to a receptive audience.
                                              I presumed that was more the sort of thing you were touching on. However, you have your books in which a fair amount of info is out there to get people started. Perhaps you could put/re-write that into video's as a foundational course. Putting it up on platforms like Udemy. Just for a trickle of extra passive income. Something you could deploy after you cease doing your bigger projects. Or, it could be under a different name so you could run it concurrently. It's just a change of media. Just a thought.

                                              Foundations in selling by Clyde Flogalot
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                I presumed that

                                                Foundations in selling by Clyde Flogalot
                                                I thinks that is a lot harder than Claude wants to work probably for less money
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                                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                  Originally Posted by Odahh View Post

                                                  I thinks that is a lot harder than Claude wants to work probably for less money
                                                  Well it's a one off thing to complete and no urgency
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    Well it's a one off thing to complete and no urgency
                                                    Earlier in the thread you mentioned cost of living going up the driver of that is part devaluation of the dollar and taxes regulations in increasing debt levels

                                                    If the economic success of a country is measured only in terms of GDP and the number of millionaires and billionaires and you can blame the poor for their poverty

                                                    There are perverse incentives built in to let costs oft living to increase every year
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                      Here is a video from the BBC charting young people (couples) who saved up from well paid jobs and retired early by investing. Not always totally work place free, they live more frugally but able to work far less hours to supplement their investment income.

                                                      https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09qw...t-to-quit-work
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                                                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                        Here is a video from the BBC charting young people (couples) who saved up from well paid jobs and retired early by investing. Not always totally work place free, they live more frugally but able to work far less hours to supplement their investment income.

                                                        https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09qw...t-to-quit-work
                                                        Fire is cool but after they retire many end up doing a side hustle or falt out running a small business. Some craft business that can support their frugal lifestyle without touching their investments.

                                                        It's critical to eat rid of debt and get recurring lifestyle costs down as much as possible.

                                                        So paying off student debt paying off the mortgage. The buying cars with saved up cash . Using credit cards and paying of the balance every month to get frequent flyer miles to get trips for cheap.

                                                        A lot more to it as the couple's have to be on the same page but there are hundreds of hours of information on YouTube
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                      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        You handled that like a pro.

                        Added a minute later.
                        I reread the exchange. I have a habit of reading someone's post, and then I start to comment...but then expand my answer into a different area. Sometimes, it's got little to do with the comment I am addressing.

                        Anyway, like I said, you handled it well. Thanks.
                        Whey I want to argue I can keep one going a while but it not what I care to do anymore

                        So I ended up rewriting that more than ten times to avoid arguing
                        So thank you for the compliment

                        My view is the people who where productive from home saved money and paid debts of have options to not go back to work in offices they can put together different sources of income .

                        70 percent probably have no choice they can't function outside a work environment or they need the security of a paycheck with benefits and career building

                        And even for them there will be openings in different companies as others quit or get fired because they refuse to go back to the office
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        The only thing I missed was the social thing, although not really that strong, it still existed, you could chat to people.
        Most points have focused on the "work" aspects of working from home, but for many people, it's the social engagement of being at work that's the more important factor. For those employees, their work environment is an integral part of their social structure; they make friends, find future spouses, form social groups - it helps define who they are. That's part of why many people find retirement difficult to cope with - they've become used to defining themselves by what for years has been a daily routine.

        From the employer's point of view, I think Claude nailed it. If you're paying someone to work for you, you want them there - not just for supervision, but also to encourage the kind of social environment that actually improves performance.
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    • Profile picture of the author Odahh
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      My

      Employees will complain and demand - but these are people who were paid through the entire pandemic unlike tens of thousands of people who lost their jobs/income. Hard to feel too sorry for them.
      i don't feel sorry for the employees .. but i think it will be the big corporations complaining about not being able to find enough worker.. as employee choose not to go back to the office. And instead seek other employment ..as this is the group who seems to have been putting a lot of money in the bank ..

      a majority will go back.. but there will probably be grumblings of staff shortages in due time ..

      and then many who go back may quit as they are expected to do the extra work .
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  • Profile picture of the author N1coleW
    I see the same situation in a lot of companies, and this is normal, Covid brought the new habit, and if the effectiveness of the employees is the same then why not
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    if the effectiveness of the employees is the same then why not

    Big 'if' - and the only one in position to judge the 'effectiveness' is that employer....who is paying the salary.



    Only one person in my d-in-law's dept complained long and loud about having to return to the office in a couple weeks. He had all the arguments....but he was the least effective person in her group.


    He was often not available when called during business hours, had to excuse himself during online meetings to 'grab' his toddler or let the dog in or 'switch the laundry to the dryer'. Of course he enjoyed 'being at home' with all the chores and privileges and still paid to work.


    My d-in-law told him she understood as she had enjoyed working at home, too. Then told him to let her know by Friday if he decided to work from home instead of returning to his office...so she could post the job opening next week. He quickly decided he'd be happy to get back to the office....


    My guess is he's probably the norm. Workers may grumble and complain on twitter and FB - but most will return to work rather than quit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      He was often not available when called during business hours, had to excuse himself during online meetings to 'grab' his toddler or let the dog in or 'switch the laundry to the dryer'. Of course he enjoyed 'being at home' with all the chores and privileges and still paid to work.
      I know most of us aren't employers. But I was and I can tell you are/were too.

      Having someone work from home is a grand idea...unless you are the one paying them for their time.

      To me, having them work from home is the same as saying they can work in the office, but they don't have to show up on time, and they can bring their pets, spouses, and kids to work every day.

      I would certainly pay someone online for doing a job. But it would be when it's finished at a set fee for completion of the work...not by the hour or by the week.

      I'm truly glad I never have to think about that again.
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      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I

        I would certainly pay someone online for doing a job. But it would be when it's finished at a set fee for completion of the work...not by the hour or by the week.

        I'm truly glad I never have to think about that again.
        that is the whole gig economy ..and the people in the gig economy tend to have to operate as a business .. but they are not and may never be a real entrepreneur ..

        but success and failure are far different ..because many time a gig can turn into a job ..

        if people have student debt and other debt they will probably have no choice but to go back to the office ..but other have stacked up cash in the bank and paid off debt ..they have more options ..
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
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  • Profile picture of the author Bella zanny
    Working at home is way better. Gives you time to do the work properly without your bosses breathing down your neck. But at the same time, it has its cons... Procrastination and laziness
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Bella zanny View Post

      Working at home is way better. Gives you time to do the work properly without your bosses breathing down your neck. But at the same time, it has its cons... Procrastination and laziness
      This isn't meant personally, but it just occurred to me that it's very easy to tell when someone is an employee or an employer, based on how they talk about working from home...or any work related subject.

      Two different mindsets.
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  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    Here is my personal experience.

    I worked in Accounts Payable. We had to pay both suppliers for their services, and Students their reimbursements. Mostly it was electronic payments. A person went in once a week to do physical checks and open and scan the physical mail that was received over the week. Most invoices were sent by email and dealt with and distributed to the appropriate people to their work folders. Something we already did in the office. Hours were 8 till 5 with and hour for lunch and two 15 minute coffee breaks.

    An email roll call had to be answered at 8am each morning. Tasks were recorded on a customized spreadsheet from each employee and submitted once a week. We had to justify each days work in 15 minute minimum increments for various tasks.

    Most communication was done via the works email. We quickly developed templates for submitting work. All check-runs were vetted by the supervisor before submission. We had been doing that anyway for some time in the office anyway. We were already a paperless office for the most part.

    Needless to say, the work got done with the same attention to detail and in the same timely manner and we had not time to let procrastination or laziness creep in. It was a full time job and you had to be there and paying attention.

    This, amazingly was in a huge community college setting, more or less a government institution, not usually starred as being efficiently run. We worked together well and rarely had any problems in operation, if we did, we managed to solve them by tweaking the procedures.

    My commute to work was 30 minutes each way so I shaved an hour each day. I made my own lunch. I vaped at my computer desk. I got up just before 8am instead of 10 to seven. I rarely got dressed for the occasion. Lol.

    This went on for 6 months until I retired.

    So, if, and only if the work gets done in a timely manner and the dept works together, there, in many cases is no discernable difference in working in an office and doing it from home.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post


      So, if, and only if the work gets done in a timely manner and the dept works together, there, in many cases is no discernable difference in working in an office and doing it from home.

      I thought about this after my last post. Of course there are jobs where it doesn't matter where you are, you do the exact same work. When I order vacuum cleaners or parts...the call gets picked up by an order taker. I have no idea if they are at home or at work, and it makes no difference to me. My guess is that it makes no difference to the company either.

      But my guess is that those jobs are not the norm. Taking phone orders, or data entry don't require supervision. As long as it's done well.

      For jobs where you are unable to sluff off work, because you are either doing it online or over the phone, and the work is coming to you....I get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Monetize
    It is now being referred to as the "Great Resignation"

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/more...o-effect-.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I think you're right, Frank - but I've also heard that 'work philosophy' from people who are chronically unemployed.
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  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    "Added later; One of my many flaws has to deal with how I think of people I hire to work with me. I always see them as a partner, working with me to achieve a common goal. I think that way, despite decades of consistently being proven wrong about that.

    I've never been able to get an employee to see this relationship as a collaboration toward a common goal. To even my best employees, the job was a necessary thing to do to get paid. Nice people, good workers, smart. But they don't see the business relationship like I do."

    How ever much comradery or teamwork between an owner and a salaried employee is present, you will never get the employee to think like that. To the employee, its still just a job, even if it is a pleasant, challenging and rewarding experience. The employee will always see that ultimately, you are the one reaping the rewards and he/she is just a cog in that process

    You could alleviate that somewhat by offering the employee bonuses and possibly shares based on performance and profits, though their will always be that separation

    I made the mistake, when I suddenly retired, of daring to think that I was an invaluable asset in my knowledge and experience, and usefulness to the dept and they did make overtures to try and dissuade me from retiring.

    Their was a hiring freeze on, even felt a little guilty about throwing some of my co-workers under the bus. However, they re-distributed my tasks between all the dept and although it must have been an extra burden to them they are just about coping.

    They will be hiring a replacement for me however but they have managed to survive for 8 months without that extra person. That's why I have reverted back to my original appraisal: To anyone working for an institution or company and not being high up or the owner, it's just a job.

    Despite all that, having retired and knowing this and the fact that it was fairly repetitive and boring, I still miss it a bit. What I probably miss the most though was that it was a routine. (putting aside the salary)
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post


      You could alleviate that somewhat by offering the employee bonuses and possibly shares based on performance and profits, though their will always be that separation
      I believe that.

      It kind of saddens me. Sometimes I would ask an employee's opinion on an idea. They would always praise the idea. Eventually, I would say something like "I read about this somewhere..." and give the idea, because I wanted to know what they really thought.

      I did have one employees, Andrew, that was different. I had him create a video introduction for me (for doing seminars). one short sentence said I was "Innovative". He laughed and said "When have you ever been innovative?" I laughed and said "Never, but the language flows".

      I even mentioned to him many times that he could make more money working for himself. But he would say "Nope. I'm a better worker bee". A set salary is very enticing if you have a desire for security.

      He was a good guy. He left because he genuinely got a better offer. i gave him a glowing recommendation, even though I lost him.

      But have someone work for me that would be comfortable talking to me like we do here? Never. And they don't realize that it would be a comfortable business relationship for me.

      And maybe a reason (one of many) I would never work for another person, is that I'm incapable of that reverence (to any degree) you have for your boss. I can fake a "respectful" personality for an hour or two, when selling....but for months? No.

      And someone raising their voice in anger? Boss or customer...that's a deal breaker.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I believe that.

        It kind of saddens me. Sometimes I would ask an employee's opinion on an idea. They would always praise the idea. Eventually, I would say something like "I read about this somewhere..." and give the idea, because I wanted to know what they really thought.

        I did have one employees, Andrew, that was different. I had him create a video introduction for me (for doing seminars). one short sentence said I was "Innovative". He laughed and said "When have you ever been innovative?" I laughed and said "Never, but the language flows".

        I even mentioned to him many times that he could make more money working for himself. But he would say "Nope. I'm a better worker bee". A set salary is very enticing if you have a desire for security.

        He was a good guy. He left because he genuinely got a better offer. i gave him a glowing recommendation, even though I lost him.

        But have someone work for me that would be comfortable talking to me like we do here? Never. And they don't realize that it would be a comfortable business relationship for me.

        And maybe a reason (one of many) I would never work for another person, is that I'm incapable of that reverence (to any degree) you have for your boss. I can fake a "respectful" personality for an hour or two, when selling....but for months? No.

        And someone raising their voice in anger? Boss or customer...that's a deal breaker.
        Where I worked, it was very much a chain of command thing. Ultimately, you had to be respectful to your seniors and any misgivings or idea's should be pointed out in a respectful and controlled manner. Having said that, due to my "Britishness", I still occasionally got into trouble for being forthright in my opinions and not always dotting my I's and crossing my T's in emails.

        I remember one time I was CC'ing all the dept on a technical support issue with our software support lady Jeri. We had a good and fun relationship and she liked my sometimes cutting wit in private emails and conversations.

        Due to me CC'ing everybody on this occasion I was still very forthright about this issue. I was just being factual and honest. My manager said in so many words: "How dare you speak to Jeri like that, write her an apology" So I sent her an email saying apparently I need to apologize to you for what I said.

        Without any prompting, she immediately sent out an email to everybody thanking me for my input and praising me on my forthright approach on the issue and not mincing my words etc, and that she appreciated that. That shut them up.

        Added, Andrew should have said: "The only thing you have been innovative about in your seminars is providing food, but then eating it all yourself"
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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    Saw a interesting article this morning on yahoo finance. A company in Japan makes some employees pay up to stay home. It's a manufacturing company that needed certain workers to show up during the pandemic.

    Here is some information from the article " When the pandemic hit, Disco didn't have the option of letting all its employees log in from home. Someone had to show up to keep the factories running. So the company set up a system where those working remotely paid a certain amount of Will to be divided among the employees who came in. "

    Link to article - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pay-s...042000873.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Old Molases
    WFH seems to be a more viable option given Covid-19 is still at large. Also, people are often found more productive when working from home as they dont have to leave their comfort zone.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Hi Ian, Kay and everyone else I know. I haven't been around as I have been working hard and didn't have time or the need to drop in. However, reading a few posts, it seems this site has gone dead in many areas...some with the last post being a year or more ago. I obviously didn't miss much.

    I have worked from home for 12 years so the pandemic hasn't affected that aspect of my life. I have had both jabs, I have a mask exemption letter due to breathing issues, but I don't go anywhere except to doctors' appointments anyway.

    My sister worked from home for approx. 1 year and loved it. Ironically enough, she used to work longer days but she was able to walk her dog for an hour every day during daylight. She could go to the gym when it wasn't as busy. She saved money on fuel and could have meals at home all the time. She used to start around 8am but usually didn't finish until anywhere between 6pm-9pm. She didn't mind because she had better quality of life. She also didn't spend up to 2 hours a day in the car.

    Some companies need staff on the premises and others can still function with some working from home so I believe each company needs to make the decision based on the needs of the company and the staff.
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  • Profile picture of the author servicedoffices
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Charlyne Masongsong
      I totally agree!

      The risk still exists. The vaccine only protects the person vaccinated, but can still be a carrier -- they could carry it home where the kids are. The threat is still there.

      I also believe that anything that's done in the office can be done at home, just as long as your jobs requires no physical contact. Bookkeeping can be done online, web development, even customer service.
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  • Profile picture of the author levelan
    I see the same situation in a lot of companies, and this is normal,
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    Millions of people are quitting their jobs every month. People are now aware of how much going to a job costs them in actual costs and unpaid time

    So many people are find jobs that might earn them less money but lower the costs of working and opens up time they can use for a side hustle or just be more frugal and have a higher quality of life
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  • Profile picture of the author N1coleW
    Everything is going to normal, as before Covid, but a lot of people are used to work from home, as I'm, it's perfect, I have more free time that I don't spend on the road to office
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    • Profile picture of the author MikerMix
      Originally Posted by N1coleW View Post

      Everything is going to normal, as before Covid, but a lot of people are used to work from home, as I'm, it's perfect, I have more free time that I don't spend on the road to office
      Yes, this whole situation also changed my life enormously.
      Maybe it will be more convenient just to exchange dollars for bitcoin or vice versa? I always make an exchange through (link removed- mod edit) . There are normal courses and good speed.
      How do you like this option?
      Or is it essential for you to find a suitable solution?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Jackson
    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

    Apple are a high profile company who's CEO want their employees back in the office, but many employees are happier working from home having got used to it and working out the logistics and are unhappy with the call. Its not just Apple either who are experiencing this. I worked from home for 6 months and generally no problems.

    Article: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article...-to-the-office

    What's your opinion about it?
    It's ok if one is not in the hands-on manufacturing sector.
    I still miss the banter and direct Human interaction
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