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It happened just like 70 miles ( Uvalde) from where I live in San Antonio. 19 children ages 2nd to 4th grade killed by high school shooter and two teachers killed. There may be more.

I was going out for happy hour with my wife but this definitely takes away the ambience.

Just unbelievable
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    It's hard when it hits that close to home.
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Im having a hard time understanding this. Where I live in WV... you cant just walk into a school - with "possibly" a rifle no less. and when I say you cant just walk in... Im talking 2 doors you have to be buzzed through to actually get in.

    and no security officer?

    Every day ( recently ) I am reminded to how fortunate I am to live where I do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    We are seeing parents taking on school boards - for the first time in a long time parents are re-engaging with their kids' education.

    This is something parents can do wherever they live - find out what precautions and security your child's school has - and whether they use it to keep students safe. School officials who know parents are watching are unlikely to cut corners to save time or effort.

    Many small schools can't afford a full time security officer - but cameras and locks are cheap....the staff time needed to vet everyone entering the building is cheap....at least when you consider the value of a child's life.


    Sadly, it took only a few hours for some politicians to start calling for gun control...why not call for school safety procedures?
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      We are seeing parents taking on school boards - for the first time in a long time parents are re-engaging with their kids' education.

      This is something parents can do wherever they live - find out what precautions and security your child's school has - and whether they use it to keep students safe. School officials who know parents are watching are unlikely to cut corners to save time or effort.

      Many small schools can't afford a full time security officer - but cameras and locks are cheap....the staff time needed to vet everyone entering the building is cheap....at least when you consider the value of a child's life.


      Sadly, it took only a few hours for some politicians to start calling for gun control...why not call for school safety procedures?
      I know where I live... the school itself does not pay to have officers... it is a state funded grant. "To Protect and Serve" and we are talking about kids here. We have a new school in our district... it was built to Level 2 prison standards - think about that - again we are talking kids here.

      Again I just dont get it - for better or for worse ( obviously worse ) history is simply repeating itself over and over - and its this, the part I do not understand.

      Lets throw this out there... Education in the States ( all 50 I believe ) is funded at the STATE level... and dispersed down to the local level. Name another State facility that does not have officers on duty.

      Infrastructure bill... yeah should be spent on securing school facilities from coast to coast and anywhere and everywhere in between.

      This is not a dont have the budget issue... its a priority issue, and it is plain and simple sad, and straight up avoidable.

      This has got me going
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I hate it when things like this happen. It's awful and there is no excuse for it.

    However, the more hardened part of me asks these questions:

    Where are all the impassioned speeches by presidents and senators every weekend when kids are shot, 2-3-4-5-6 at a time in Chicago, NY, LA, or elsewhere neighborhoods?
    Where is the outrage on Fox, NBC, and CNN when those happen?
    Where are the bios and pictures of the perps in those cases?
    Where is the anger and grief for those children who are the same as the children that died today?
    Or is it again a problem of selective outrage? We run news stories that advance the narrative.

    Seriously, if you (not you Robert) love children and want to protect them, there are a lot more of them dying at the hands of gang bangers, unhinged parents, etc. than in these shootings.

    Either get sick of all of it and tear it all down to fix it but don't pick and choose what you get mad about. A child's life is a child's life, and it doesn't matter if it's a rich white kid or a poor black child or an immigrant or whoever else. Children are innocent at those early ages. They never hurt anybody. Let's get outraged about it all.

    Rant over for now.
    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I hate it when things like this happen. It's awful and there is no excuse for it.

      Seriously, if you (not you Robert) love children and want to protect them, there are a lot more of them dying at the hands of gang bangers, unhinged parents, etc. than in these shootings.
      I am in no way disagreeing here.... there is a larger problem... But there is a difference between the list above and school shootings. The whole issue of school shootings could be resolved in a weeks time ( if not literally tomorrow ), and never happen again. We can send 40 BILLION dollars to a foreign land to basically kill an "Advisory"... but we cant protect our children in govt funded facilities.

      Its about priorities, and they are so out of whack its just not funny. Tomorrow May 25th should be no less than January 7th 2021... fences and troops surrounding any and every school across the country. Instead we will see finger pointing, rhetoric, and political game playing.

      Actions speak louder than words... its ok to spend 40 BILLION to crush an "Enemy" but cant spend a dime to protect the most vulnerable at home. Its straight up BS
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        One of the things I thought about, whether it was right or wrong, during the height of COVID, teachers refused to go to work because of the chance of infection. Later, the government caught on and started installing air filtration systems and things to protect the children and teachers from COVID.

        So, changes can happen if we really want the changes.

        Instead of defunding the police, fund the police and have more than one security cop posted per school. Barricades like you say might work but children may feel they are in prison, so you'd have to do it the right way. Even if they weren't 12-foot fences, you could put barricades of some sort so that no one would get through the perimeter without at least a chance of a warning to hide. Safe rooms or even gyms could be equipped so that if extra security measures are activated, it becomes a protected space. You'd just have to get the kids in there.

        Gun control, of any kind, isn't an immediate answer. There are too many variables there for a quick solution. That's always the knee jerk solution but I'm convinced we'd go through a second civil war before guns go away. So, not a quick solution.

        But you make a good point. It took them 24 hours or so to barricade the capital which is much bigger than any school. When there is a will there is a way.

        And don't get me started on priorities. I think they are a mess. Other than that, anything else I say would be political, so I'll shut up.

        Mark

        .
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        I am in no way disagreeing here.... there is a larger problem... But there is a difference between the list above and school shootings. The whole issue of school shootings could be resolved in a weeks time ( if not literally tomorrow ), and never happen again. We can send 40 BILLION dollars to a foreign land to basically kill an "Advisory"... but we cant protect our children in govt funded facilities.

        Its about priorities, and they are so out of whack its just not funny. Tomorrow May 25th should be no less than January 7th 2021... fences and troops surrounding any and every school across the country. Instead we will see finger pointing, rhetoric, and political game playing.

        Actions speak louder than words... its ok to spend 40 BILLION to crush an "Enemy" but cant spend a dime to protect the most vulnerable at home. Its straight up BS
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    No, it is not selective outrage. I see a lot of anger over children shot in the cities. Often the anger is that the killer is out on bail for other crimes or was paroled early, etc. We don't know this kiiller's background yet but i doubt this is the first sign of trouble from him.

    There is a greater shock, I think, when someone invades a school where you assume children are not at risk. The count in Texas now is 19 children, grades 2-4....and 2 adults.

    These were not stray bullets or crossfire a child was caught in - these children were targeted and there is something so evil about that.

    We react because that's all we can do....any family who loses a child is in a world of hurt.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Yes, it's more shocking. Of course. All I'm trying to say is let's get shocked about all the deaths of children. Use the shock to create change across the board--in schools and neighborhoods-whatever that looks like. I'm not trying to distract from or diminish this horrific event in any way. These people truly are evil who kill innocent little children.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      These people truly are evil who kill innocent little children.
      I have a phrase I say kinda often "Control the controllable" YES... there are evil people in this world... not sure we can control that... BUT we can control things like the security of school facilities... and as we have watched this play out time and time again... the REAL evil, is in the lack of action by the powers that be ( both sides ) to allow this to happen over and over.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Does anyone know what happened to the two missing girls yet? Did they run away in fear? Is there rubble or places in the school where they could be? This just seems like a strange mystery. Normally, in shootings, people are accounted for pretty quickly. I haven't watched the news yet this afternoon so I may have missed something.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Does anyone know what happened to the two missing girls yet? Did they run away in fear? Is there rubble or places in the school where they could be? This just seems like a strange mystery. Normally, in shootings, people are accounted for pretty quickly. I haven't watched the news yet this afternoon so I may have missed something.

      Mark
      I believe the identification process for the victims hasn't been completed yet
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    In Texas just a few weeks ago, a young girl was taken from a FB game and sex trafficked. That is a crime of opportunity and that worries me about those girls.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      In Texas just a few weeks ago, a young girl was taken from a FB game and sex trafficked. That is a crime of opportunity and that worries me about those girls.
      This made the news...but this is a HUGE problem that is happening...

      and it's growing bigger and bigger. These people got caught, but there's a ton of them out there that aren't. There are so many stories that never get reported.

      The Charlie Project is something that shows you the vast enormity of this problem...and that's just the ones that get reported.

      It's an epidemic
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      In Texas just a few weeks ago, a young girl was taken from a FB game and sex trafficked. That is a crime of opportunity and that worries me about those girls.
      Yes Kay this worries me too. People think I am being over protective when I tell them I do not let my 12 and 13 year girls out of my sight at the local Walmart here in San Antonio.

      But these sex traffickers go to any length, anywhere to find their next victims. It's really bad here in San Antonio and Houston.

      You really cannot be too safe from these slimeballs
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Not wanting to get political...

    but it seems we can't talk out problems anymore because each side has dug into their bunkers and are willing to fight for their beliefs without compromise.

    We have got to be able to work together.

    A lot of things I don't agree with...but I'm willing to negotiate to find common ground...seems we've lost that ability.

    We've become too entrenched in our beliefs to negotiate...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    It is not going to happen - 'never let a good crisis go to waste' is a reality now.

    PEOPLE have to ignore the roar of politics and get together to solve some of the problems.

    What if schools had locked door policies that were clearly outlined and required to be used every single day....what if failing to follow the policies meant the school administration and the school board could be held liable?

    Sometimes you have to put teeth into a law or a procedure in order for people to take it seriously.

    What would have happened in TX had the door been locked - with a security camera installed that activated when someone approached the door? We don't need a nuclear option to kill an ant - we just need to keep the ant away from us.


    edit: Something I didn't know. There is a fed law that if background check to buy a gun takes longer than 3 days....the dealer can go ahead and sell the gun. How does that make sense? A background check taking longer would seem to indicate a problem...

    TX doesn't have any waiting period to buy a gun - and that should change. The two guns were purchased days before this shooting. That an 18 yr old could purchase two high power guns 2 days apart with no flag being raised....doesn't make sense. He also bought a large quantity of ammunition with no flags raised.

    I would think the waiting period is critical....10 days or even 2 weeks....time to reconsider, time to calm down, time for something else to grab your attention...time to think. Doctors tell you if you can keep someone from committing suicide for 24 hrs they are unlikely to go ahead with it. Why wouldn't a waiting period act as a cooling off period?

    Background checks used to take days - now most take minutes and that's not really a good thing. Banning guns is not the answer - making it more difficult to qualify to BUY a gun makes a lot more sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      It is not going to happen - 'never let a good crisis go to waste' is a reality now.

      PEOPLE have to ignore the roar of politics and get together to solve some of the problems.

      What if schools had locked door policies that were clearly outlined and required to be used every single day....what if failing to follow the policies meant the school administration and the school board could be held liable?

      Sometimes you have to put teeth into a law or a procedure in order for people to take it seriously.

      What would have happened in TX had the door been locked - with a security camera installed that activated when someone approached the door? We don't need a nuclear option to kill an ant - we just need to keep the ant away from us.


      edit: Something I didn't know. There is a fed law that if background check to buy a gun takes longer than 3 days....the dealer can go ahead and sell the gun. How does that make sense? A background check taking longer would seem to indicate a problem...

      TX doesn't have any waiting period to buy a gun - and that should change. The two guns were purchased days before this shooting. That an 18 yr old could purchase two high power guns 2 days apart with no flag being raised....doesn't make sense. He also bought a large quantity of ammunition with no flags raised.

      I would think the waiting period is critical....10 days or even 2 weeks....time to reconsider, time to calm down, time for something else to grab your attention...time to think. Doctors tell you if you can keep someone from committing suicide for 24 hrs they are unlikely to go ahead with it. Why wouldn't a waiting period act as a cooling off period?

      Background checks used to take days - now most take minutes and that's not really a good thing. Banning guns is not the answer - making it more difficult to qualify to BUY a gun makes a lot more sense.
      Unfortunately, I believe we let certain media create situations that are not good...

      we're in an age where 24-hour "pundit" talk is normal...and it depends on what side the pundit talk is on to try and persuade people.

      News has gone beyond the news to political persuasion
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  • Profile picture of the author spartan14
    This its realy horific when this things happen ,you remain with no words when you heard about an event like this
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  • Profile picture of the author yeyvasil
    It's terrible, can't believe it's happening so often
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  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
    This is not a cry to ban guns.

    As far as I know, guns were advocated here in the US as a right in case the people did not favor the fledgling government that was formed so they could overthrow it. Question, is this state of affairs still relevant these days? Perhaps some would say yes, but would the people ever do it?

    The minimum age to own a handgun is 18 but in 30 states, kids can still own a rifle or a shotgun, IE, a long gun!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...fe-or-shotgun/

    So, it would help if you took that away methinks. On top of that, the ownership of a gun should be raised to 21. My reasoning is that an 18 year old brain is far mushier than a 21 year old one. Adolescent idealism, instability and fanaticism is going to be more the state of affairs in an 18 year old brain. A 21 year old one is at least a bit more stable.

    So, I'm not saying ban them, just be sensible about the minimum age to own one, it would reduce crime and these shootings significantly.

    Rather that than ask all schools to turn themselves into Fort Knox with armed security guards, many can ill afford them. And stop saying things like "Arm The Teachers" as somebody revoiced when it happened. They are just teachers, not vigilantes.

    Guns, other than personal weapons should be stored in lockable metal box when not in use so people under whatever the legal age will be, cannot readily get their hands on them. I would say that should be a legal requirement to buy one as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

      . And stop saying things like "Arm The Teachers" as somebody revoiced when it happened. They are just teachers, not vigilantes.
      Agreed !!

      The Texas Attorney General was saying this and it is just pure dumb and stupid. Sorry if others here may disagree but to expect "Ms. Crump" to holster up with a gun and have that many more guns in the school is plain asinine
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

      Rather that than ask all schools to turn themselves into Fort Knox with armed security guards, many can ill afford them. And stop saying things like "Arm The Teachers" as somebody revoiced when it happened. They are just teachers, not vigilantes.
      This argument just really chaps my hide... EVERY state has a Board of education... and within that structure there are school districts. Schools are a Fed and State funded program... I could care less what a district budget is... Our govt at its absolute most basic set of principles is suppose to protect "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness". Words I am sure we are all aware of.

      This nonsense is the Govt inability to do its job. Left - Right - Independent All of them should be held accountable.

      9-11... planes full of un-armed people and a couple of guys with box knives - that got fixed real quick now didnt it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    The craziest thing is when we start talking about laws. Yesterday a person in congress got very angry, and one of the things he said was something like, "when are we going to have a law to stop these killings?"

    There is already a law against killing innocent people. Are the crooks following it?

    Take away the AR-15. That'll solve the problem. That's always the issue according to one side. Okay, so a shotgun could be used or even a handgun by a thug.

    Banning the bump stocks was supposed to do a big part of stopping it. No.

    Nobody needs more than 10 round magazines. That'll solve it. Okay. So, if you have 10 bullets how many apples can you shoot with those bullets?

    Turn in your guns. Sure. I'll turn mine in so only the thugs who don't have any morals and won't follow the law and use guns to commit crimes have them. Yep, sign me up to be the sitting duck.

    Posts on FB about COVID or against vaccines or in support of certain movements or politicians can be shot down quickly and many are never seen. But this guy can write these three statements about 30 minutes before the killing and FB does nothing.
    "I'm going to shoot my grandmother," Ramos posted first.

    "I shot my grandmother," he posted few minutes later.

    "I'm going to shoot an elementary shool," the third post read.
    If you are going to censor posts, FB/Instagram/Twitter, spend more time censoring ones like this instead of the ones you don't like politically.

    There has to be a balance. For example, one of the people crying loudest about the need for change introduced a bill in July 2020 to take cops out of schools and replace them with counselors because of racism when everyone was trying to prove which side of the riots they were on. Racism is awful. Killings are awful. Cops can prevent crime. Counselors can help prevent crime. Some cops are racists. Some counselors are racist. But at the end of the day when the bad guys are hunting someone down, they normally call the cops for protection not their therapist.

    And many of those yelling for change have done everything they can to hamstring the border patrol. Yet it's the border patrol that was able to go in and take the shooter out. If not for them, there may be more children dead.

    Want change? We need a balance and some sense of shared priorities. We need honest negotiations based on principles we're willing to stick with and not be changing every four years along with the resident of the WH. We need mutual respect and decency. If there is going to be change, there is only one way to do it in my opinion. Not as elephants or donkeys but as Americans. It's times like this which can bring us together, but the hateful rhetoric is at full blast. And that's why, I'm afraid, there will be NO real change.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    There are some aspects of this that have been shared that are more... more... more... over inflated fiction?

    If we pay attention to the details we have the weapon used was an AR-15 "LONG" rifle. So what exactly is that? we are all familiar with the term .22? ok so no body here would have an issue with kids under 18 having a .22 correct... an AR-15 and a .22? SAME THING.

    Even that statement is not the whole truth... so the most available AR-15 styled piece you can buy in large chain stores etc is .223 caliber ( IE .22 ) These specifically would not be considered "High Powered"

    If you look at the time line of this particular situation... the young man had a prior felony charge. He purchased the items 2 days after his 18th birthday, and 2 days prior to the incident. There was no waiting period on the purchase of the item, because it is a "Long" item. Every State is a bit different but i believe my 13 yr old son could go in and buy this item.

    Things get interesting in the details. At 18 you become an adult - you can vote... you also have your prior 17 years of criminal record - removed as it were. His "Felony" prior to turning the age of 18 would not show up on the minimal check for such things would not show up when he went to purchase the item.

    The question then becomes where do you draw the line... if you look to the past, you will see that the argument of "Semi-Automatic" was a thing... The 6 shot revolver pistols from the wild west are/were "Semi Automatic" weapons... It was basically an attempt to ban all items... it didnt fly... so now the narrative has shifted to "Assault" items. Which begs the question.. what exactly is an assault item?

    No one seems to have an issue with buying a 6 shot shotgun or a cartridge shotgun for that matter... or say a 30-30 or 30-6 - those are for "hunting" all 3 of those are far more powerful weapons than the .223 ar-15.

    I believe most of us in this discussion are of a more mature age... we have seen news footage of police forcing their way into a building, or the troops in Afghanistan. What is most often carried in these situations?

    And before I answer that... Ask any young person that plays video games what the weapon of choice is in close combat quarters.

    The answer here kids is a shotgun. As warped as this is going to sound we are in a way BLESSED these crazy people are using AR-15's with .223 rounds. Imagine a hallway full of kids and a shotgun shell with 100 pieces of led per shot - it doesnt paint a pretty picture.

    The cry to ban "Assault Weapons" is as Mark points out yet another empty solution to a problem... at this point an assault weapon is what? a Gun that looks like... but you can buy an uncool version that just looks like a regular gun - in terms of ability there is no difference.

    Clips... this kid was in this school before the situation was brought to an end for 1.5 hours... 5 shots per mag or 20 - would it have mattered?

    Here is an interesting question... we know 19 kids and 2 adults were killed... how many were injured? ( EDIT: just read 17were injured ) It will be interesting to see how many casings were found?

    And to really throw this conversation into an uncomfortable place... the school was actually a "Modern" school with all of the bells and whistles I was speaking of last night... there came a time when the school was "Locked down". This young man did not "barricade" himself in a room... he was locked in... and I want you to think about that scenario for a moment. Locked in a class room...

    My heart goes out to the person that ultimately made that decision to lock the facility down - and lock the young man in a room with what we can only presume was a room with kids and a teacher in it - We will never know THAT truth.

    A very sad day - will be a frustrating few weeks as the information of the incident is released to hide an aspect of the truth ( and probably rightfully so ) and also to move forward a narrative of yet another non working solution.

    I personally can only think of 2 govt funded public facilities that dont have an armed presence... Libraries and Schools. $10 says the Board of Education building has armed security..I know ours does.

    I dont know what the answer is... but I am pretty sure of a current right now solution.

    With all of the rules in place, this kid side stepped them. The whole must be 21 argument is really null and void - the only reason this is an option is based on the mis-information based narrative of "Assault Weapons"

    If you look at the Buffalo incident... and if you have read the very left leaning manifesto ( thats right kids the young man was not a right wing extreme white supremisist... ) He chose that specific target because of the amount of gun control - "Data" would show that the probably more effective solutions falls towards the opposite of restriction, and more towards the allowance of ownership with a better check prior to purchase.

    ALL weapons should have a waiting period - for as long as it takes. A gun purchase should include your entire record and not just your adult record. THIS would be a god start.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    My family owns a lot of guns including about a dozen AR-15s - and not one of those guns has harmed or threatened anyone. We need purchase limits - waiting periods and perhaps other gun laws....and to enforce laws we have...but that doesn't solve the problem.

    An 18 yr can buy a gun because an 18 yr old can join the military and carry a gun. That is the reasoning...and it makes sense. Most of these shooters are under 18.

    A military vet suggested arming SOME teachers and it was not a bad idea...but in a case like this there was no time to retrieve a weapon that would have been locked up for safety.

    This person was able to walk through an unlocked door....and then walk into an unlocked classroom, close that door and start shooting.

    Keeping doors locked is a necessity - even when there is a security guard as there was here. PREVENT ACCESS is the first step and too many schools are not doing that. It's a pain to have to unlock a door - it's time consuming to have to identify every vendor or visitor asking for entry.

    I called two friends yesterday - both teachers - to ask how their schools handle security. For both of those schools - one large and modern - the other small and old - doors are 'monitored' when students enter in the morning. Every door has a teacher or admin to welcome students and watch for problems.

    It was interesting to learn the larger school has a lot of protocols but they aren't always followed. Two security guards and yet there is often no security guard at the one door left open during school hours. The reason - there are other things they can be doing - and it's too time consuming for office personnel to help with door duty. That's a decision that could come back to haunt you.

    The little school was different - in a town of 900+ people - the school takes security as part of the daily grind. NO door is left unlocked when students are in the building....NO one - parent or vendor or anyone - is allowed to come into the building without showing ID and being accompanied by a person from the office even a parent delivering a forgotten book or lunch.

    Wouldn't those schools likely represent tens of thousands of other schools around the country? Some being very serious every single day about security and others slacking off a bit because security is time consuming?

    I don't like the Dept of Education much - but since it exists seems to me it should be participating in safety protocols, in adding cameras and fences if needed, in providing trained security officers/door monitors, in adding metal detectors in high risk area schools.

    When I was in elementary school, county and state school boards made all the decision....that's no longer the case. School security doesn't start with gun laws - it starts with the Dept of Education and state and local school boards with the guts to set and maintain security protocols. Unfortunately, school boards can't be heard over the politicians with their anti-gun agendas.

    IN THIS TRAGEDY - this killer did not post about his intentions until 30 minutes before he killed. He apparently doesn't have a criminal background - no one expected this of him. here was a security guard it seems but he engaged after this kid was in the school. The only thing that might have stopped or at least limited this tragedy is a locked/monitored exterior door and a locked classroom door. Low tech.


    Sorry to be so wordy on this topic. Columbine was the first we remember...police did not enter the school until the next DAY out of fear of 'additional shooters'. Medical personnel were not allowed to enter. My cousin's husband was the teacher who died because there was no medical help allowed into that school after the shooting. That was over 20 years ago and it's only gotten worse, not better.


    As a country - we should be smarter than this.
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  • Gotta tellya, don't gaht much sway with guns 'n stuff, Moi.

    Gimme toosix shootahs on muh hips, an' they slip right offa my legs bcs no fancy leathah belt scrawny ol' Moi evah seen gaht enough holes to make with the poifect buckle less'n we summonin' snakes can eat thuhown tails.

    So, hey, can we touch base on 2 ways more hooman-friendly to coexist as we pondah our potential fyootyoore conduct regardin' guns?

    I would so wish for nowan dies don't gotta.

    Plus also, gotta hope you with me here in my perfectly executable sentiment ...



    1.

    Don't evah position yusself into a scenario where wantin' to kill sumone makes actschwl frickin' sense.

    (I believe Asimov's robahts nailed this like eons ago, an' they were only stoopid robaaahts FFS.)

    2.

    Don't evah question 1..

    (You may argue for the existence of inevitable or desirable conflict ONLY if you break this rule.)


    Alternatives?


    These are the stuff of degree, I figure.

    An' you may mebbe wanna measyoore it out this way.

    Ask yusself ...

    Who would YOU most wanna shoot?

    Not as a desperation thing ... nor even as a way crayzee whim ... but simply bcs you could?

    Course'n, you would nevah shoot no *child*.

    But you would surely have a *list* ...

    if'n you invited this WHO WOULD I MOST WANNA SHOOT question upon yusself.

    A list ...

    like a pyramydahl hierarchy with the NO NO NO TIP cut offa by possibyooly the lack of immediate weaponry to hand, plus also an absence of massed 5yos tryin' to undahstand which witch is whatevah (etc) dead center beneath your gaze.

    Could be a stoopid list you gaht there, but it is nonetheless TO DO if'n you say it is. A proto-WISH, if'n you wish.

    (Cats. Octogenarians. Guys with unauthentic beards who would rathah you hadn't see through their act.)

    All I know is, without a gun in your hand -- how would you make your way down your (possibly octogenarian) TO DO list, item by item, with the consummate effectiveness of a proven slayah?

    Try this out with spoons, an' you way less effective!

    But you no less self-summonably harmful to othahs.


    As in kinda I will naht even hold out till'n #12,567 on the WHO WOULD I MOST WANNA SHOOT list ("anonymous" on most theoretical rosters you see, but could mebbe show as "anywan" IRL) bcs technically that is algorithmin' out in the direction of You So Troolz -- even if'n you don't get math!

    Aftah all, when you shot 'bout most evrywan, who in hell be left to shoot, zackly?


    Hey, so mebbe we gotta start askin' people this question.

    Who would YOU most wanna shoot?

    Nowan gaht no gun, nuthin' happens.

    It is a technicality, but ... hey.


    For sure, I could POP both your EYEBALLS with a BIRO as we WRITHE on the floor TOGETHAH in a PROFOUNDLY DOUBLE-MURDEROUS TRYST ...

    But why would I wanna do that?

    Prolly bcs I don't evah position musself into a scenario where wantin' to kill sumone makes actschwl frickin' sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    The problem with 'instant news' is that it is so often wrong. TX police are walking back comments made yesterday...now they say no security officer was in the building and the shooter was in the school for over an HOUR while police waited outside for a 'tactical team'.


    Sounds like the story told yesterday was mostly made up facts. Watching the news tonight my son said 'too bad the parents weren't armed - they would not have waited for backup.'
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      for a 'tactical team'.

      y u put everything in single quotes
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    ...cause I want to Don't have to use 'shift'....
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    i ate a hamburger 'yesterday'
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      i ate a hamburger 'yesterday'
      Is this 'instant' news that cant be trusted?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    see - I started a whole new 'thing' without even trying. I should be a marketer....just sayin'....


    Which reminds me of something I read recently....


    "you may notice I often end a comment or answer with 'just sayin'...I do that that because it's more considerate than saying 'dumb a@@'"
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I joke because I'm so frustrated with the thread topic - I hear so many experts and politicians and armchair lawyers proposing solutions...


    No one wants to talk about the unlocked door....or the one hour wait outside for a techgear squad to show up even though officers were present.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I joke because I'm so frustrated with the thread topic - I hear so many experts and politicians and armchair lawyers proposing solutions...


      No one wants to talk about the unlocked door....or the one hour wait outside for a techgear squad to show up even though officers were present.
      Yeah, it does not make a lick of sense. How he got in there and after shooting at eyewitnesses right after he crashed his truck. And then the hour or so barricade

      Something just does not add up. And there is absolutely no excuse for that back door to be unlocked
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      • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Yeah, it does not make a lick of sense.....

        Something just does not add up.
        First off hope your family is okay mentally with being close to that area. From seeing your avatar over the year with your children. Can't imagine going into a school knowing people got killed about an hour away doing the same thing.

        So much does not make sense with this. Some say the parents were help back by the police. Some say that some officers went in and pulled their children out and did nothing else. To avoid getting shot out.

        This is where the conspiracy theories start out. Police cover-ups, the news stories changed, today someone claimed a false flag? That is where half the nonsense starts.

        I feel bad for the victims, and the families that have to deal with these issues.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

          . Some say that some officers went in and pulled their children out and did nothing else. To avoid getting shot out.

          This is where the conspiracy theories start out. Police cover-ups, the news stories changed, today someone claimed a false flag? That is where half the nonsense starts.
          If I was being perfectly frank if I was a police officer ( and I have no business being one) I can see myself looking for my kids first off all and getting them secured. And then getting all the others out and the killer taken care of.

          Don't know if this is true but I can see it occurring. It may not be the oath a police officer is sworn to abide by as far as serving the public. But it's human nature to protect one's own first and foremost.

          But to do "nothing else" would be intolerable

          Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

          First off hope your family is okay mentally with being close to that area. From seeing your avatar over the year with your children. Can't imagine going into a school knowing people got killed about an hour away doing the same thing.

          .
          Thank you so much for that. We are doing good. I must admit it really hit me hard. When I see two kids are deceased on local news and then I turn on the tv an hour or so later and 14 are gone...well it really was tough to swallow. We went to happy hour that evening ( my wife and I ) as we had plans for a couple of days but I admit it was not very enjoyable just thinking of those parents who never will see their young children again.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


      No one wants to talk about the unlocked door....or the one hour wait outside for a techgear squad to show up even though officers were present.
      They said video shows that a teacher propped the door open. For ventilation? They didn't say why...but the door she propped open is the one he entered through (according to reports coming out).
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    So are there ever times the security measures work and keep shooters out of school so only a few people outside the schools get hurt.

    There has to be some cases of that or is it a 100 percent failure rate when someone wants to find a way in they get in

    Someone who should not own weapons finds a way to get their hands on weapons and get into a school to shoot children. Bypassing all the security measures put in place from previous shooters.

    Maybe we should not have experts design the security systems but 16 or 17 year olds
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I heard the teacher propped the door open just 30 minutes before the guy went in. That right there is how conspiracy theories start. Some say it was to get ready for the false flag. Others say it was them innocently opening the door.

    Who knows?

    I hope they get to the bottom of all this. That may help prevent future tragedies. I'm not ready to fully blame anyone except the shooter until it all gets figured out. Jumping to conclusions and coming up with theories without hard proof hardly ever helps things.

    During all this figuring out time, though, those poor families are being traumatized over and over as they learn x didn't do y in time or z was in the wrong spot or why did a do this.

    It's a mess.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    The more this plays out..the more information we are getting ( and not getting ) The more we are reading these news stories that discuss the effectiveness of "Laws" as it pertains to these types of situations... its very clear the approach is tail end backwards.

    "Control the Controllable" - you simply can NOT control insanity... and to think for 2 seconds you can... is insane. The absolute correction for this will fall into the lines of forget the bad guy in these scenarios and start thinking about the facilities - how do you stop bad guys getting in.

    "Propping a door open" given this situation sounds ludacris... But WHY did the teacher feel the need to do so? Musky smell? air flow? and again take the bad guy out of the picture and look at the underlying issues.

    Lets start with installing a alarm for any and every exterior school door in any and every school across America... At the very least alert the office there is an open door - vs a blaring alarm -no more open doors. Would THIS alone have stopped this tragedy? one could very much argue this. WHY are teachers inclined to open doors - FIX the underlying issues. F "District Budgets" and get it done

    In the case of Florida a few years back... thats an open campus meaning it is laid out more like a college IE multiple buildings - So a fenced parameter becomes a very good start - would this have stopped that incident... and again the argument could be made that yes it would have.

    Start with the controllable. "Laws" will not resolve this - has not yet and will not anytime in the foreseeable future. Preventative systems based apon the known history of these situations ( hindsight being 20/20 vision ) mitigates at worst, and flat out stops this nonsense at best.

    Law reform.... background checks for ALL weapons... background checks for ALL munitions, background checks for ALL clip sales. This kid spent in excess of $6000 in a day or 2? ding ding ding RED FLAG. A young man with a part time job in fast food - there is without question more to this story.

    Oversee the purchasing - Control the ability to enter - and a lot of this stuff just stops
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    that's one unmotivated mass murderer that is deterred by a locked door and a fat rent-a-cop
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      that's one unmotivated mass murderer that is deterred by a locked door and a fat rent-a-cop
      If you have followed all of these instances there is this underlying motivation of being the one with the greatest amount of destruction IE kill count... Going down in history... Getting dropped at the front door and denied the fame... becomes a big deterrent - and maybe wont stop all but again how much does it mitigate?

      And I get it, it sounds silly... but we are talking about a generation, that are for the most part lazy... this becomes work...

      Im going to throw out a theory here... this kid had dual personalities... Shot grandma and didnt do so lethally ( how in the world was this reported falsely - may heve been intentional? ) Look atthe Truck in the ditch... no drivers license or not - ODD to say the least... was this the "Good" personality stepping in? Spent how long outside the school blasting away into the air? again the "Good" personality stepping in. Walking into 1 room... 2 rooms with a divider and stopped and held up right there.

      As bad as this was.. it could have been far worse - I might suggest a very unmotivated mass murderer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      that's one unmotivated mass murderer that is deterred by a locked door and a fat rent-a-cop
      You can apply your same logic to AR15 vs. a handgun or two, a shotgun, a car, a bunch of knives, bow and arrow, etc.

      Motivated mass murderers are going to do their thing. They will just choose another mode of killing. It's the people that commit the crimes not the weapons.

      Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I think a combination of a waiting period before you can get your new gun....and perhaps a flag on multiple purchases....along with security fences, cameras, locked steel doors and even locked classroom doors....might stop some of these shooters. Limit entrances that can be used when students are present - and put cameras, alarms and security personal AT the door.

    An armed guard at the door could have stopped this - a police leader with real experience could have stopped this sooner. That will haunt these parents for the rest of their lives.

    We see it on the news - but we don't think it will happen in our town....so the room is stuffy or the hall is hot - you open the door for a bit.

    That children so young were calling 911 and that was not being relayed to police at the school is inexcusable. This tragedy will end up being a case taught in police academies.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I think a combination of a waiting period before you can get your new gun....and perhaps a flag on multiple purchases....
      Would it have mattered if this young man had to wait an additional 3 days? Because it was "Long' there was no waiting period anyways.

      Here is a real good question to be asking.... did this young man buy all the clips and rounds at the same time as the guns? Was he buying them before hand?

      I would suggest a system that only allows you to buy ammo and clips for Guns on file. I being a gun owner can not think of a single rational reason that you should be allowed to purchase 300 rounds and 10+ clips at one time anyways - I just learned the other day you can buy 30 round clips in 10 packs? WTF?!?!?!

      I will very boldly say that the problem isnt with the shooter... its with the system - I am far from saying anything like "Gun Control" and maybe something like "Gun Accountability"

      I personally when the gun thing got crazy during the Trump years kinda went into a direction of decreasing the amount of calibers I have... I Now have 2 in total... 30-30 and 20 gauge. I collect 30-30's and have a custom AR style using that caliber. Yes I have an amount of ammo on hand.. But I cant say I have ever bought more than a box or 2 at a time - EVER, and I have 2 clips for my AR - rationally who needs more?

      I just dont think that limiting the ability to buy the gun is the issue - banning "assault weapons" is just silly... an AR or a pistol, at the end of the day can do the same amount of damage... so what exactly do they think they are stopping? Controlling the consumables seems a more logical avenue to pursue... one that myself as a gun owner would not argue... just makes sense.

      Your average gang banger on the street with an illegal gun cant walk into a store and buy ammo... they ( govt agency ) would be able to track the activity of someone regularly buying a lot of ammo... gives authorities somewhere to start looking at things.

      Its like Washington doesnt want solutions
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I was thinking of 10 days or so as a waiting period - thinking of it as the same 'wait 24 hrs' that is advice offered on suicide watch. The thought that the person may change their focus - change their mind. Might make no difference.

    We could also have a registry of 'approved buyers' - those who have passed an extensive background check and have a record of purchases and no criminal record.

    My son and d-in-law have 'fast pass' passports - they bypass security lines in airports everywhere. It's more expensive and it requires a background check that takes some time.

    I don't see why gun purchases couldn't be like that. Except there's no political glory in it - any more than there is requiring school doors to be locked and monitored when children are present.

    Even when background checks took days - my son could clear a purchase in 10 minutes because of his gov security clearance level. Why can't we have a security database for guns? Do a full background check for those willing to pay a fee for convenience - and slow walk any other buyers through an extensive background check for every gun they buy?

    What we are all saying is there are things we CAN do to improve security. Those things often are ignored because there is no political benefit to them...and that is sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author WF- Enzo
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    Can't believe people can just carry guns in public as they wish.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by WF- Enzo View Post

      Can't believe people can just carry guns in public as they wish.
      In Ohio, starting in June, you will be able to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

      Myself, I kind of like the idea of people being at least a little trained in the laws and usage of a firearm...but that's just my personal thinking...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I agree with you - I remember my d-in-law had to go through a full course to get hers....and I'm the only one in my immediate family without a carry permit. I've had permits in other states but don't feel the need for it here.



      The attitude is that criminals don't care about 'training' or laws but i worry about people who are easily frightened, too reactive or with anger issues. I guess we'll see how it goes.


      I've been reading various opinions and have changed my mind on one point. The general attitude is that if you can join the military you should be old enough to have a gun. I think the age should be raised to 21 - just as it was for buying liquor. When you join the military you are trained and supervised as you learn to use a weapon. I also firmly believe there should be a waiting period..for someone planning to USE a weapon, it might be a cooling off period.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by WF- Enzo View Post

      Can't believe people can just carry guns in public as they wish.
      The "America's" unlike any other part of the world going back to 1492 the 15 and 1600's was forged by the will of gun powder and lead - and horses, but I am sure thats a whole other discussion.

      Granted the last battle actually 'In" the United States was the Mexican American war of 1846 - 1848 with exception to the Civil War 1861 - 1865 The testament of the 'Right to bear arms" has in many ways stood the test of time.

      By contrast you look at a country such as Australia that was a penal colony from 1788 for the next 100 years.... Penal colony and guns are obviously not the best choice in the world... Many Countries in the Far East, and Europe slow transformed from a sword and bow type society... to a Gun free society. History and Traditions and Culture basically dictated as such.

      I would more than think any country created post 1865ish will for the most part have a "Gun Culture" - One stand out of that I would say is Israel. With Israel it is a cultural difference... Israelis are armed not against the state, but by the State. And in the States it is the exact opposite - going back to the absolute foundation of our country 1776 - to oppress the Govt.

      Looking at American History... i would argue many of the key changes in America are directly related to guns.... Urban Sprawl - was the great exodus of inner cities - war zones - are to this day. The urbanites bought weapons if and when the city rats came to take their stuff - and again historically this happens over and over.

      We ( Americans ) also have this rich history of ranchers and farmers where guns were carried by necessity - to put an animal down, or Wolves / Coyotes, snakes or any other predator.

      So what would happen today if all of the sudden it became law no more guns? The MAJORITY - the law abiding citizens that legally register and own guns would turn them in. The MINORITY - those already breaking the law would keep them - it would be a HUGE shift in power - an UGLY shift in power - Defund the police and it gets even UGLIER.

      But what about the above mentioned "Natural" predators - Wolves and Fox, and Coyotes and Mountain Lions - deer for that matter... livestock and crop damage would be rampant.

      And then we get into our Southern Border... Forget Sex Trafficking, or People trafficking across the border... there would be an absolute stream of epic proportions of illegal weapons. I could only imagine something like the Mexican Texas war would repeat itself... the Cartels would have a hay day.

      As BIZARRE as the whole concept of just carrying around a gun seems to you - it is our History.. it is our Culture - from day 1 of this for better or for worse GREAT country. I would argue that removing the guns - would be the death of the land of the free - and that statement has very little to do with "rights" and more to do with reality.

      *** Added Canada is going to move forward with the halt of hangun sales and the buyback of "Assault weapons"... and I would argue that without the buffer of the United States that could be a huge mistake..If we follow suit - I again would argue, it would be nothing but tragic.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        The "America's" unlike any other part of the world going back to 1492 the 15 and 1600's was forged by the will of gun powder and lead - and horses, but I am sure thats a whole other discussion.

        Granted the last battle actually 'In" the United States was the Mexican American war of 1846 - 1848 with exception to the Civil War 1861 - 1865 The testament of the 'Right to bear arms" has in many ways stood the test of time.

        By contrast you look at a country such as Australia that was a penal colony from 1788 for the next 100 years.... Penal colony and guns are obviously not the best choice in the world... Many Countries in the Far East, and Europe slow transformed from a sword and bow type society... to a Gun free society. History and Traditions and Culture basically dictated as such.

        I would more than think any country created post 1865ish will for the most part have a "Gun Culture" - One stand out of that I would say is Israel. With Israel it is a cultural difference... Israelis are armed not against the state, but by the State. And in the States it is the exact opposite - going back to the absolute foundation of our country 1776 - to oppress the Govt.

        Looking at American History... i would argue many of the key changes in America are directly related to guns.... Urban Sprawl - was the great exodus of inner cities - war zones - are to this day. The urbanites bought weapons if and when the city rats came to take their stuff - and again historically this happens over and over.

        We ( Americans ) also have this rich history of ranchers and farmers where guns were carried by necessity - to put an animal down, or Wolves / Coyotes, snakes or any other predator.

        So what would happen today if all of the sudden it became law no more guns? The MAJORITY - the law abiding citizens that legally register and own guns would turn them in. The MINORITY - those already breaking the law would keep them - it would be a HUGE shift in power - an UGLY shift in power - Defund the police and it gets even UGLIER.

        But what about the above mentioned "Natural" predators - Wolves and Fox, and Coyotes and Mountain Lions - deer for that matter... livestock and crop damage would be rampant.

        And then we get into our Southern Border... Forget Sex Trafficking, or People trafficking across the border... there would be an absolute stream of epic proportions of illegal weapons. I could only imagine something like the Mexican Texas war would repeat itself... the Cartels would have a hay day.

        As BIZARRE as the whole concept of just carrying around a gun seems to you - it is our History.. it is our Culture - from day 1 of this for better or for worse GREAT country. I would argue that removing the guns - would be the death of the land of the free - and that statement has very little to do with "rights" and more to do with reality.

        *** Added Canada is going to move forward with the halt of hangun sales and the buyback of "Assault weapons"... and I would argue that without the buffer of the United States that could be a huge mistake..If we follow suit - I again would argue, it would be nothing but tragic.
        You forget one easy thing. Simply cease allowing companies to manufacture them, not to mention the ammo and maintenance kits. Allow guns to be made only for the the people that need to use them, like the police, if appropriate, the farmers who need them to kill vermin, the border patrol and of course the armed forces, all the people you mentioned. Properly licensed and policed.

        Without proper standards of manufacture, over time, all the illegal guns will just be home brewed shot guns and the like. The sort of things that are still around in Europe, You know, the place where their is almost no shootings. It will and must die out. Sure, you could allow guns for rental in gun clubs and controlled distribution for hunting, purely as a sport, but that's it.

        The cart apparatus for horses ceased to be made, cars came along and made them redundant. They were no longer needed, same with guns. No longer needed if you wish to be a civilized society.

        To talk about the schools thing and various solutions, really, is absurd. The real solution is staring you all in the face. Just take that step. Like you have done before, amend the American Constitution. It was something that was drawn up years ago to reflect the basic principals of the freedoms of a fledgling country. Many of them were noble, true, or just common sense and should and do still stand. But others are no longer appropriate to uphold.
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          [QUOTE=lanfear63;11713443]You forget one easy thing. /QUOTE]

          but I didnt forget... Do US laws apply in Mexico? or the rest of Central America? Look at this: ( https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ths-by-country ) The whole concept as I spoke of in regards to "Gun Culture" is laid out in red

          The Countries with the highest rates of gun death / violence:
          1. El Salvador -- 36.78
          2. Venezuela -- 33.27
          3. Guatemala -- 29.06
          4. Colombia -- 26.36
          5. Brazil -- 21.93
          6. Bahamas -- 21.52
          7. Honduras -- 20.15
          8. U.S. Virgin Islands -- 19.40
          9. Puerto Rico -- 18.14
          10. Mexico -- 16.41

          And these all sit south of the American border

          I might suggest we are beyond the point of sliding towards the lowest common denominator in terms of gun control...If you REALLY look at the recent Buffalo incident and read the whack jobs manifesto...He chose NY in particular, because there would be less an opportunity for those around him to have guns as well.

          Part of the understanding of the situation in the United States is to understand how our Govt works. To my knowledge we are the only country in the world that has a good amount of separation of power between Federal and State authorities.

          Canadas Federal Govt will more than likely pass some sweeping legislation that bans weapons...In the States... Its not that easy... the Federal ruling will be taken to court because the overall authority in relation to weapons is determined at the State level - and this is specifically why nothing has been done.

          If you get into some of the nitty gritty details of the Texas incident, The young man should have never had the ability to buy 2 guns, 4000 rounds of ammo, and something like 70 clips.... his Grandfather has a Felony charge, and because of Texas state law there should not have been the ability to buy a weapon while at the same address. BUT... because the gun check is done at a Federal level - with less than accurate state information - that detail was missed.

          I live 15 miles away from the FBI center that actually does background checks... I know people that work in that facility... Its straight up a cluster fudge. In the digital world we live in TODAY... there is simply no reason for background checks to take days weeks and months in some cases. A simple cross check of known felons address' in comparison to a buyers address should have been the variable to STOP the Texas incident from ever happening.

          But, do we hear about that in the news? NO - So one has to question why the obviously broken system is allowed to continue with more focus on Laws that wont do a damn thing vs actually fixing the core issue.

          Over the 3 day holiday weekend in Chicago something like 47 people shot... 9 dead and 200+ weapons were confiscated. WHY were the guns confiscated? They were not legally permitted weapons. Keep in mind here in terms of Gun Control Laws in the States... Chicago is up there on the list ( most stringent ) And its THIS right here that is the real issue - take from the Majority that is responsible... and the only ones left are those that are breaking the law.

          For better or for worse gun ownership in America is a check and balance - its the legal gun owners balancing the non legal.

          If you look at it this way... I legally own weapons and have absolutely no intention of shooting anyone. But the other side of this is those that do not legally own...what are their intentions?
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            [quote=savidge4;11713464]
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            You forget one easy thing. /QUOTE]

            but I didnt forget... Do US laws apply in Mexico? or the rest of Central America? Look at this: ( https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ths-by-country ) The whole concept as I spoke of in regards to "Gun Culture" is laid out in red

            The Countries with the highest rates of gun death / violence:
            1. El Salvador -- 36.78
            2. Venezuela -- 33.27
            3. Guatemala -- 29.06
            4. Colombia -- 26.36
            5. Brazil -- 21.93
            6. Bahamas -- 21.52
            7. Honduras -- 20.15
            8. U.S. Virgin Islands -- 19.40
            9. Puerto Rico -- 18.14
            10. Mexico -- 16.41

            And these all sit south of the American border

            I might suggest we are beyond the point of sliding towards the lowest common denominator in terms of gun control...If you REALLY look at the recent Buffalo incident and read the whack jobs manifesto...He chose NY in particular, because there would be less an opportunity for those around him to have guns as well.

            Part of the understanding of the situation in the United States is to understand how our Govt works. To my knowledge we are the only country in the world that has a good amount of separation of power between Federal and State authorities.

            Canadas Federal Govt will more than likely pass some sweeping legislation that bans weapons...In the States... Its not that easy... the Federal ruling will be taken to court because the overall authority in relation to weapons is determined at the State level - and this is specifically why nothing has been done.

            If you get into some of the nitty gritty details of the Texas incident, The young man should have never had the ability to buy 2 guns, 4000 rounds of ammo, and something like 70 clips.... his Grandfather has a Felony charge, and because of Texas state law there should not have been the ability to buy a weapon while at the same address. BUT... because the gun check is done at a Federal level - with less than accurate state information - that detail was missed.

            I live 15 miles away from the FBI center that actually does background checks... I know people that work in that facility... Its straight up a cluster fudge. In the digital world we live in TODAY... there is simply no reason for background checks to take days weeks and months in some cases. A simple cross check of known felons address' in comparison to a buyers address should have been the variable to STOP the Texas incident from ever happening.

            But, do we hear about that in the news? NO - So one has to question why the obviously broken system is allowed to continue with more focus on Laws that wont do a damn thing vs actually fixing the core issue.

            Over the 3 day holiday weekend in Chicago something like 47 people shot... 9 dead and 200+ weapons were confiscated. WHY were the guns confiscated? They were not legally permitted weapons. Keep in mind here in terms of Gun Control Laws in the States... Chicago is up there on the list ( most stringent ) And its THIS right here that is the real issue - take from the Majority that is responsible... and the only ones left are those that are breaking the law.

            For better or for worse gun ownership in America is a check and balance - its the legal gun owners balancing the non legal.

            If you look at it this way... I legally own weapons and have absolutely no intention of shooting anyone. But the other side of this is those that do not legally own...what are their intentions?
            Then the change has to come at the fundamental level. If the whole of the US subscribes to the American Constitution then it's the clause about the right to bear arms that needs the amendment.

            I will ask the question, like in an election, is it possible for the American public collectively or state by state, to have a vote on this issue, let the people decide?

            Having said that, in the UK they allowed the people to vote on Brexit. Look what happened there. A mutually and obviously beneficial thing was scrapped due to a close call public vote. If they had one now as to asking to re-join methinks it could go the other way. People are not all knowing and wise.

            Would be interesting though.
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              I will ask the question, like in an election, is it possible for the American public collectively or state by state, to have a vote on this issue, let the people decide?

              Having said that, in the UK they allowed the people to vote on Brexit. Look what happened there. A mutually and obviously beneficial thing was scrapped due to a close call public vote. If they had one now as to asking to re-join methinks it could go the other way. People are not all knowing and wise.
              Brexit was a divisive and polarizing issue and not as obviously clear-cut as you suggest. In any case, the outcome of the vote didn't do much to change people's views. I'd imagine it would be the same with any firearms vote in the US.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                Brexit was a divisive and polarizing issue and not as obviously clear-cut as you suggest. In any case, the outcome of the vote didn't do much to change people's views. I'd imagine it would be the same with any firearms vote in the US.
                Debatable on both fronts I would say. For example, the farmers of places like Cornwall lost all their subsidies when that county voted to leave Europe. Not to mention other farmers across the UK. The ability to easily travel and work and live abroad gone as well. Seeing European institutions leaving the country etc. As for guns here, I have no idea as to what the results of a referendum would be.

                Added: gun ownership in the US hovers between 37-47 percent of the applicable Populus.
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                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  Debatable on both fronts I would say. For example, the farmers of places like Cornwall lost all their subsidies when that county voted to leave Europe. Not to mention other farmers across the UK. The ability to easily travel and work and live abroad gone as well. Seeing European institutions leaving the country etc. As for guns here, I have no idea as to what the results of a referendum would be.
                  Of course it's debatable. There've been debates about it for decades. But this is not a thread about Brexit, so we shouldn't go there.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Here is an eye opening display of statistics that very clearly shows the current discussion is so far off the mark its not funny: ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/...y-weapon-used/ )
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Much like alcoholism and drug addiction there is no way we will completely eliminate these Mass Shootings. That's just a fact of life.

      But I believe what many have mentioned here will help decrease the odds that they will happen again. i.e. stricter background checks, raise the age to 21 for purchase of any guns, make sure that ALL schools have surveillance and SHUT doors that can only buzz people in after they are asked a series of questions ( and viewed through surveillance), finally we can all do our part by keeping a close watch on suspicious looking and sounding individuals who may propose a threat to do something like Uvalde or Sandy Hook. And do not be afraid to contact local authorities with the names of these very suspicious individuals.

      So it's a holistic approach to dealing with this problem. Not one thing or another. And even with this we will NEVER be a world free of evil that will have their way with innocent people. Never !!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I would also add that refusing to show the photo of a mass shooter with every article about the crime - would be a good idea. To some twisted people - THIS is fame.



      https://www.newsweek.com/florida-10-...hreats-1711262


      9 out of 10 of these kids are just showing off, being stupid....but you need to take them all seriously because 1 of 10 will be serious.
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    • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
      Slightly different opinion from others that should or could, be put in effect as soon as possible. Make the laws similar throughout the country. Adapt the standards to the tougher or toughest states in the country.

      No one under the age of 18 is allowed to own a gun. Six months of mandatory background checks. If a felony is sealed for an underage person. It should be open for further review during background checks. Restrict them to a 22 rifle, and 12 shotgun for hunting purposes till they are 21.

      Ban all ads targeting kids. Did not know some states had these types of T.V. commercials. Trade shows are not allowed to sell military-grade weapons.

      Inner cities enforce gun laws and get them out of the hands of gang bangers. Long-term jail consequences for any illegal gun weapons charge, including ghost guns.

      Also, explore the reasons what has changed in society From pre-Columbine days. That has made attending school such a risk of being involved in a Mass Shooting incident.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Raising children by social media is not working well. No one in the public eye wants to say that out loud.


      Children are learning 'anything for attention' - and 'look at me look at me'. The learn to pose, to posture, to brag and lie if necessary to be popular.


      It is not the same as face to face social interaction. I believe if you allow a child unlimited access to the internet and to social sites....you are letting strangers raise your child.


      In the Texas shooting they talked about a student who called 911 multiple times...these were grades 2, 3 and 4....with cellphones in class. A child dialing a cell phone over and over is not finding a place to hide or a way to save herself and that bothered me.


      Children today are accustomed to asking 'what do I do' with a phone call....they don't learn coping mechanisms by having to make their own decisions. Not all - but many.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      If you get into some of the nitty gritty details of the Texas incident, The young man should have never had the ability to buy 2 guns, 4000 rounds of ammo, and something like 70 clips.... his Grandfather has a Felony charge, and because of Texas state law there should not have been the ability to buy a weapon while at the same address. BUT... because the gun check is done at a Federal level - with less than accurate state information - that detail was missed.

      Some good points there. How is it acceptable in 2022 that a background check for federal would not INCLUDE a state check as well? As for FBI checks - my son did background checks for fed security (a different govt agency) and they took weeks and sometimes months. Why do we use the lowest/easiest path for guns?


      I may have mentioned this previously - but my son and his family have Global Entry passports. It took weeks to complete the background check and approve by-passing airport security. Why should we do less for gun purchases by those who have not purchased in the past.



      There are things we can do but the most effective changes don't carry any political kudos so are ignored by both sides.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think it's more accurate to say - ban guns and only the criminals will have them.


      Not going to happen in the US.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think it's more accurate to say - ban guns and only the criminals will have them.


        Not going to happen in the US.
        I think this is a very accurate statement... Sure I guess i could concede "school shootings" will decrease but homicides will increase. I think there would be an influx of crime across the southern border - police would be over run and The United States only has 1.5 million members in the armed services... and how many of those are on active duty through out the world - arguably our nations greatest weakness... and banning and taking weapons from the legal majority amplifies the issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      From a friend's FB page :


      "If we make guns illegal, no one will get shot any more....after all,
      that's how we stopped people from doing drugs".
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        From a friend's FB page :


        "If we make guns illegal, no one will get shot any more....after all,
        that's how we stopped people from doing drugs".
        Most of the shootings will cease, yes, but while there are still guns in the world you would not be able to totally eliminate people being shot until they are gone. The thing is, your average criminal cannot manufacture decent guns and ammo themselves. That's why, in Europe, due to much less availability, the best most criminals can come up with is crude, sawn off shotguns and not much in circulation either.

        Drugs however, can be fairly easily grown, manufactured and distributed by comparison.
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      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        From a friend's FB page :


        "If we make guns illegal, no one will get shot any more....after all,
        that's how we stopped people from doing drugs".

        If we make mass murder illegal, no one will go postal anymore.

        After all, that's how we stopped people from jaywalking.
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        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          If we make mass murder illegal, no one will go postal anymore.

          After all, that's how we stopped people from jaywalking.
          If we ban schools at least there will be no more mass murders in schools

          We can replace the current school building with an office building type structure. Each student will have their own cubicle that has bullet resistant glass surrounding them with an air purifier inside. With a few computer monitors and a camera system inside. Mixing online education with onsite teachers.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Of all the mass incidents that have occurred in recent history... the Texas incident is really the worst example possible.

      Think for a moment the guy was in a room for 40 minutes... there were officers breaking through bullet proof glass from the outside of the school to get children out... i wont say that again, but please read it.

      It took 40 minutes for the key, that would unlock the door so that officers could then end the situation.

      There were systems in place... The school was "Locked Down" and the young man was locked IN the room - something went horribly wrong.

      From the time he crashed his grandmothers truck, to the time he made entry into the school 12 minutes lapsed... From the time right after he crashed truck, shots were fired, and officers were onsite within 4 minutes. Something went horribly wrong in that 8 minute window.

      Is any of this being said directly? nope... but when you put the little pieces together - THIS timeline is accurate. The entire timeline is backed by what we see on the "news"

      Laws are not going to stop this... understanding what exactly went wrong between the 8 minutes prior to entry, and why exactly the classrooms were not locked down prior to his entry THAT is what needs to be corrected.

      And now we have Ohio allowing school staff to have guns - with 1 day of training? ( and I am sure more States will follow ) Im all about gun rights... but thats just stupid waiting to happen.

      All of the laws and rules and whatever else that will come from the after math of THIS, wont stop a thing - there are signs it will only get worse.

      The Texas incident happened in what should have been a secure facility - that should have had an officer... that should have been locked up to start with, and locked down before the young man could have entered.

      You can blame the young man and the gun all you want... but the REAL responsibility falls elsewhere

      The background check failed... the fact he bought 2 rifles, 4000 rounds, and 72 clips, that red flag failed... for 12 minutes after crashing the truck, the gun was being fired - repeatedly ( at no greater than 200 yrds from the school, and as little as 3 to 5 feet ), a secure facility with a propped open door. 12 minutes and multiple calls from inside the school and surrounding business' - the school wasnt instructed to "lock down"?

      Way to many things went wrong, before this really went wrong - and THAT is very disheartening - and again Narrative before Truth.

      There are lessons to be learned here - and those lessons will never be taught.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      It took 40 minutes for the key, that would unlock the door so that officers could then end the situation.

      There were 19 officers there during that 40 minutes - assume All OF THEM were armed....but no one thought to use the guns to shoot the lock off the door. That would have taken about a minute to do....


      Blaming guns in this case is much like wanting to ban cars because drunks drive them.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        There were 19 officers there during that 40 minutes - assume All OF THEM were armed....but no one thought to use the guns to shoot the lock off the door. That would have taken about a minute to do....


        Blaming guns in this case is much like wanting to ban cars because drunks drive them.
        As logical as this sounds... shoot the locks... we are talking a hardened facility... with the intent of keeping the intruder OUT of the room. In this case the intruder was in the room... do some research on this incident in particular and the doors opened outwards into the hallway - to protect ramming the doors open.

        Take an article such as this ( https://www.wideners.com/blog/mythbu...g-a-lock-work/ ) and then apply that the same locks used in prisons are used in this type of facility.. from what I understand ( may or may not be true in this case ) we are talking class 9 lock mechanisms - and a gun aint going to do it. and insult to injury is damaging the lock and not breaching, and then the key doesnt work.

        Have to keep in mind as well this door has 2 locks.. the every day use door lock and then the intruder present Lock Down lock.
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        • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
          Didn't know about the two locks. Was wondering why they did not bring in a battering ram to break the door down.

          This is not a simple fix, but some schools here in NJ have actual metal detectors entering the school. All the other doors on the building are locked, to get inside the school during the day. Someone from the main office (with a camera) meets you at the door. If you try to enter while classes are in session. This would not have helped in this case because of the open door. However, a setup like this at every school could cut the incidents down or might have prevented some of the past events.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          Take an article such as this ( https://www.wideners.com/blog/mythbu...g-a-lock-work/ ) and then apply that the same locks used in prisons are used in this type of facility. .
          Lol. I have looked at that a few times now ... However I have no idea what it means.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      (edit)

      I had not read about the reinforced interior doors in Uvalde. No point in havng reinforced doors on classrooms if they are not kept close and locked. Same for entrance doors.

      We can scream about guns and the mentally ill all we want....but this was low tech access....unlocked/open doors. That almost makes it worse.
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      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post



        (edited)


        I had not read about the reinforced interior doors in Uvalde. No point in havng reinforced doors on classrooms if they are not kept close and locked. Same for entrance doors.

        We can scream about guns and the mentally ill all we want....but this was low tech access....unlocked/open doors. That almost makes it worse.
        Key I deleted it a few minutes after I posted it
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      LOL - gotcha - I've done that more than once in this thread myself.
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      • Profile picture of the author Odahh
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        LOL - gotcha - I've done that more than once in this thread myself.
        I've written 45 posts for this thread in the Las day 2 made it to posts one got deleted.

        I was in high school in the 90,s before columbine and school shootings where becoming a thing the was just no script yet.

        But I went to schools where you where at risk of getting shot outside the schools. And some of the students may have been armed if someone else came in shooting.

        Honestly without a number of the teachers actually also being trained armed security and the bullet proof individual pods in schools I think schools are as safe now as they can be
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      From a friend's FB post today - a common sense idea...


      Either provide schools with the same security as politicians - or provide politicians with the same security as schools.


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      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          but wat if the russians nuke the usa.



          see this is kind of the problem with copy pasting random youtube comments


          its a good plan but only if the usa can fight a nuclear war by yeeting little kids across the deep blue sea

          and without the nuclear football
          Politicians won't be be that important during the war and probably won't have much say after.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @Savidge4 - I'm not for banning guns because I don't think it would work.

    I am for enforcing the laws we have...and, holding parents more responsible.

    44 shootings in Chicago this past weekend with 8 fatalities (last count).

    If I were in charge for a day, I'd hold every parent responsible for any crime their child did under the age of 18. Too many parents have no clue what their kids are doing... 13-year-olds robbing and then getting shot and the parent is suddenly outraged at law enforcement. Mind you, this was like 2 in the morning when the kid was out robbing someone and stealing a car...so many stories like this...

    I'm all for holding parents responsible.

    Personally, I think it's an outrage and a complete shame we let parents just get off with no charges after they let their kids roam the streets all night and cause problems.

    Thanks for your insight.

    My rant for today

    Edit: I said under 18, because the overwhelming majority of the offenders over 18 have a long list of problems before they were 18 but their records are sealed because they were juveniles
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Ban guns and you'll see a decrease in school shootings. But you'll see an increase in mass stabbings and school bombings. A twisted mind will always find a way to inflict misery and pain.

    Gun restrictions are a band aid to the issue. Mental health is the real issue, IMHO. Treat the tumor, not the symptom.

    Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to how to go about that or what the root cause is. If I were to proffer a guess, I'd say children aren't learning how to handle rejection and adversity at appropriate ages anymore. This lack of coping skills creates a tidal wave of negative emotion which culminates, in the right person, as a need to seek retribution as violently as possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Ban guns and you'll see a decrease in school shootings. But you'll see an increase in mass stabbings and school bombings. A twisted mind will always find a way to inflict misery and pain.

      Gun restrictions are a band aid to the issue. Mental health is the real issue, IMHO. Treat the tumor, not the symptom.

      Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to how to go about that or what the root cause is. If I were to proffer a guess, I'd say children aren't learning how to handle rejection and adversity at appropriate ages anymore. This lack of coping skills creates a tidal wave of negative emotion which culminates, in the right person, as a need to seek retribution as violently as possible.
      "Ban guns and you'll see a decrease in school shootings. But you'll see an increase in mass stabbings and school bombings. A twisted mind will always find a way to inflict misery and pain"

      Of course you won't, you don't see that in Europe and you won't see it here. It is and will always be because of guns that it happens in the US at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        "Ban guns and you'll see a decrease in school shootings. But you'll see an increase in mass stabbings and school bombings. A twisted mind will always find a way to inflict misery and pain"

        Of course you won't, you don't see that in Europe and you won't see it here. It is and will always be because of guns that it happens in the US at all.
        You're half right, but it's not the guns. Guns are simply the most effective tool available.

        The tool isn't the issue. The issue is the mentality of the children. I've given my theory on that. I can't speak to the difference between US and European children, but it's an apples to oranges comparison because the tool isn't the comparable variable. Mental health, and a very specific section at that, is the issue.
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        • Profile picture of the author Odahh
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          You're half right, but it's not the guns. Guns are simply the most effective tool available.

          The tool isn't the issue. The issue is the mentality of the children. I've given my theory on that. I can't speak to the difference between US and European children, but it's an apples to oranges comparison because the tool isn't the comparable variable. Mental health, and a very specific section at that, is the issue.
          The demographics issue is that the difference is there are far more children in the USA than in Europe.

          Americans love our cars guns and having enough children to replace previous generations.

          Savage

          The lesson is people are addicted to doing things that make the feel safer and not improving the measures already in place to actually make things safer.

          Some people thought they would feel safer without the police until violent thugs had no fear of opening their car window and shooting people walking across the crosswalk.

          Im of the people who think we can solve every problem in society by banning things. Let's ban your people from not having insurance. Homelessness let's ban people from sleeping outside. Guns. Drug. Dog breeds and so on.
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          You're half right, but it's not the guns. Guns are simply the most effective tool available.

          The tool isn't the issue. The issue is the mentality of the children. I've given my theory on that. I can't speak to the difference between US and European children, but it's an apples to oranges comparison because the tool isn't the comparable variable. Mental health, and a very specific section at that, is the issue.
          Consider this, are mental health issues in teens any different or more so anywhere else in the world? Most likely not. The rather unique thing here though is that guns are freely and easily available here to people of that age and become an easy thing to use in venting their delusional and fanatical, unbalanced thinking.

          The appeal of using other weapons in non gun toting countries just does not exist to any extent. Thus, you don't see anything like this. You may be able to tackle mental health to some extent but some of it is down to raging hormones.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
            Personally I don't think I understand these conversations about "Mentally Ill" People killing People.

            There are (probably more) People that don't have "traditional" Mental Health problems ... Yet still go on and kill People. I'm not saying they don't have problems ... Usually though it's unlikely a Person (with depression etc.) to go on to harm someone.

            From what I've read -- and experienced -- most People with MH problems actually kind of withdraw into themselves and isolate -- rather that expressing any kind of "anger/malice" (etc.)
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

              Personally I don't think I understand these conversations about "Mentally Ill" People killing People.

              There are (probably more) People that don't have "traditional" Mental Health problems ... Yet still go on and kill People. I'm not saying they don't have problems ... Usually though it's unlikely a Person (with depression etc.) to go on to harm someone.

              From what I've read -- and experienced -- most People with MH problems actually kind of withdraw into themselves and isolate -- rather that expressing any kind of "anger/malice" (etc.)
              I think it safe to say that most of these teenagers who do these killings are most likely suicidal but want to go out in a blaze of "senseless" glory. They expect to be shot if they are not going to take their own lives.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                I think it safe to say that most of these teenagers who do these killings are most likely suicidal but want to go out in a blaze of "senseless" glory. They expect to be shot if they are not going to take their own lives.
                Sure. And that's kind of the tragedy.
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                "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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  • Profile picture of the author PostingBay
    It's so sad that such kind of things keeps happening and to make a lot worse, it's our kids that are being targeted.

    Imagine the pain of all the parents that have to bury their own child/children. A lot of them would get depressed over this.
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  • Profile picture of the author bikker
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    I'm not convinced we live in any worse times than ever before...

    Look at history. People were thrown in vats of boiling oil because of their beliefs. Witches were hung. WWII and I. Plagues that killed millions in the world...

    some very horrible events occurred in history.

    I do believe with social media and a 24-hour news situation, we're more aware of what is happening and it creates bigger discussions.

    Yes, we see a lot of terrible things happening, but every generation before us had their list of terrible things.

    Events get used for political reasons and religious reasons during every generation.

    Mental health always needs more consideration in my opinion.

    Saw a report today where some guys stomped on a woman's head in broad daylight in China and people there are outraged over it...shows how the current news cycles bring us reports we would have never heard of before....

    We get most of our news from social media these days...and the opinions and conspiracy theories and ideas are endless
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      I'm not convinced we live in any worse times than ever before...

      Look at history. People were thrown in vats of boiling oil because of their beliefs. Witches were hung. WWII and I. Plagues that killed millions in the world...

      some very horrible events occurred in history.

      I do believe with social media and a 24-hour news situation, we're more aware of what is happening and it creates bigger discussions.

      Yes, we see a lot of terrible things happening, but every generation before us had their list of terrible things.

      Events get used for political reasons and religious reasons during every generation.

      Mental health always needs more consideration in my opinion.

      Saw a report today where some guys stomped on a woman's head in broad daylight in China and people there are outraged over it...shows how the current news cycles bring us reports we would have never heard of before....

      We get most of our news from social media these days...and the opinions and conspiracy theories and ideas are endless
      All very true, in times gone buy there was no police, no justice or much accountability etc. Compared with them we are at our most civilized point. Communication of these events to all is so easily done so now we all know about it.
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      The only thing to fear is Lanfear itself.

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