Baldwin bill to convict Bush/Cheney in the house now

by HeySal
26 replies
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Get on your phones, send letters, send emails - and tell your reps to sponsor this bill now while they are still feeling our heat from the bail outs!

Rep. Baldwin Introduces Bill to Undo and Prosecute Bush-Cheney Crimes | AfterDowningStreet.org
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    I really wish Bush and Cheney could be convicted for their crimes and at least locked up but it seems that the only way a president could be convicted of anything would be if he murdered a bunch of people with an axe and it was caught on tape. But then he'd probably get off on that too by saying the people he killed were terrorists. Hmm, is there anything a president can do that would get him convicted?
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      It's not going to happen. There is no real proof. Just as "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" type of justice. Evidence also has a way of disappearing or pardoned.

      For example this was tried during the Reagan years when arm sales were made to Iran to fund the Nicaraguan contras with covert military aid against the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. Reagan was too old and senile to have a trial as he could "not recall" any of the details, and those who were convicted received pardons from President Bush Sr.

      Senility tends to be common in our leaders in particular when it comes to wrong doing. You just can't convict senile old leaders.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        It's not going to happen. There is no real proof. Just as "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" type of justice. Evidence also has a way of disappearing or pardoned.

        For example this was tried during the Reagan years when arm sales were made to Iran to fund the Nicaraguan contras with covert military aid against the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. Reagan was too old and senile to have a trial as he could "not recall" any of the details, and those who were convicted received pardons from President Bush Sr.

        Senility tends to be common in our leaders in particular when it comes to wrong doing. You just can't convict senile old leaders.
        Who happened to be the head of the CIA at the time and the one who masterminded the whole thing:rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Beginning with our first administration, we had corruption in Benedict Arnold, the general in the Revolutionary War who attempted to surrender West Point to the British. Congress also investigated his accounts, and found financial corruption. He escaped the US and became Brigadier General in the British Army and retired with a nice pension in London.

          Also Aaron Burr, the Vice President under President Thomas Jefferson, was charged with murder for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Dueling was illegal even back then and he was indicted for murder in both New York and New Jersey (though these charges were either later dismissed or resulted in acquittal)

          Aaron Burr also was charged with treason, but was acquitted. After Burr left the Vice Presidency at the end of his term in 1805, he journeyed into what was then the U.S. West, particularly the Ohio River Valley area and the lands acquired in the Louisiana Purchase. He was accused in turns of having committed treason, of a conspiracy to steal Louisiana Purchase lands away from the United States and crown himself a King or Emperor, or of an attempt to declare an illegal war against Spanish possessions in Mexico. He did go so far as to form his own regiment of at least 500 men. Burr was arrested in 1807 and brought to trial on charges of treason, for which he was acquitted. After several years in self-imposed exile in Europe, Burr returned to practicing law in New York City and lived there until his death of old age.

          Our Founding Fathers knew there would be men of corruption in government, that is why our government has so many checks and balances so one person cannot have too much power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

          We the people have the power. That power is the power to vote in elections. Many of our elected officials got into office by default - people do not exercise their right to vote because they think it doesn't count. I think we learn by now voters could have made a difference 8 years ago when the outcome could have been different if we had just 1% more of eligible voters participate in the process. Less than 51% of eligible voters participated in the 2000 elections, and about 53% voted in the 2004 elections. We could have made a difference, then, and we can make a difference in 2008.
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      • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        There is no real proof. Just as "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" type of justice.
        Ahh, the famous quote of Johnny. That will always be remembered...

        'If it doesn't fit, you must acquit'

        Commiting the crime doesn't make a differeace when you have a lawyer that knows hows to get into peoples minds and make the decision for them, lol...

        RIP
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          This is a new ballgame, though MYOB. We have the evidence to hang this whole admin from the same gallows as Sadam faced........but impeachment is "off the table" because what was brought out implicated our house speaker, who refuses to touch it because of her own guilt - the whole gang of 4 could go down, and possibly a handful or more of our congress. The Judiciary has also been rigged to hell and back.

          We still have those checks and balances - but now we can see how worthless those all are when a corrupt faction walks in and just ignores them all. Our Pres was not elected - twice. What we are facing is a fascist take over (see bail outs for info on how they are progressing). Even our congress was either intimidated or didn't see it coming - I suspect a bit of both. They see it now and hopefully there is enough of them to stop the progression.

          People are still fighting over the truth of 9/11 - and here comes the predicted financial fall (yes, it was predicted. No one listens to "conspiracy theorists" because they are "nut cases" and anything that doesn't strike normalcy is considered "conspiracy theory").

          Now we have two of the same ilk who have been cordoned off to be allowed publicity enough to get elected in an election that a third party was gaining too much favor to be allowed. Look at the transgressions against Ron Paul - media blackout, rigged voting, they even shut down a Caucus in Nevada when things went in his favor (he is suing, and winning, but the election was thrown for him nonetheless).

          Checks and balances mean crap when they refuse to work within them.
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            ALL governments are corrupt. The US government is no exception. We have seen an historical example of how a small group of people who tried to rip off taxpayers for $700billion ala Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson et al. Fortunately, there are barely enough competent members of Congress who thwarted this takeover.

            We are in this situation largely because for too many years Americans have done nothing to ensure the election of competent and ethical representatives. More than half of eligible voters don't vote, so elections at local and national levels are won by default to corrupt people.

            I don't see many people have voted for Ron Paul. Almost 50% of American voters are missing in action.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Is it really thwarted, MYOB? I think we are still in for a watered down version..so people will be silly enough to stand and cheer their owners instead of impeaching and recalling every one of them that didn't just say "NO Way".
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              Sal
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                If you didn't vote in 2000 and 2004, quit your whining. This is all YOUR fault.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  If you didn't vote in 2000 and 2004, quit your whining. This is all YOUR fault.
                  THANK YOU!
                  I've been telling people that for years.
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                • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  If you didn't vote in 2000 and 2004, quit your whining. This is all YOUR fault.
                  In 2004, wasn't Bush accused of "rigging" the votes? Wasn't there some controversy going on then? Was that ever proven?
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Yes, there was some controversy going on about rigging of votes, but nothing widespread was proven. What is proven is that 47% of eligible voters didn't show up to vote.
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                    • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      Yes, there was some controversy going on about rigging of votes, but nothing widespread was proven. What is proven is that 47% of eligible voters didn't show up to vote.
                      That's a lot of people, wow. You can include me in that group, I don't vote.

                      Are you saying it is the peoples, who did not vote, direct fault that these potential illegal acts were carried out?

                      You wouldn't blame those directly who committed the crime?

                      Aren't there other branches of government that should be over seeing this?

                      Its one thing if people don't agree with what the president is doing, but the president should be carefully monitored to make sure he is not doing anything illegal. I guess the saying is true.. power can cause corruption...
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post

                        That's a lot of people, wow. You can include me in that group, I don't vote.

                        Are you saying it is the peoples, who did not vote, direct fault that these potential illegal acts were carried out?

                        You wouldn't blame those directly who committed the crime?

                        Aren't there other branches of government that should be over seeing this?

                        Its one thing if people don't agree with what the president is doing, but the president should be carefully monitored to make sure he is not doing anything illegal. I guess the saying is true.. power can cause corruption...
                        I think what Paul is saying is if those who don't vote did we would have a better chance of getting better people elected.
                        Consider both parties know they will get the votes of their registered party voters and a few undecided voters.
                        Those who don't vote tend to bitch the loudest and are the ones who could actually make a difference in an election.
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                        • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                          I think what Paul is saying is if those who don't vote did we would have a better chance of getting better people elected.
                          Consider both parties know they will get the votes of their registered party voters and a few undecided voters.
                          Those who don't vote tend to bitch the loudest and are the ones who could actually make a difference in an election.
                          But if the election was rigged from the beginning, as some say it was proven, then voters never had a choice.

                          If you voted, then you've wasted you're time (assuming it was rigged). I guess this could further prove how illegal acts were carried out the whole time.

                          And even those who didn't vote... What if they wanted to vote for Bush anyways? Then there choice in the matter would still have caused a potential illegal act by the government.

                          And to flip it on you... If you voted for Bush, are you saying that you are partially responsible for the illegal actions of the president you've chosen?
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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post

                            But if the election was rigged from the beginning, as some say it was proven, then voters never had a choice.

                            If you voted, then you've wasted you're time (assuming it was rigged). I guess this could further prove how illegal acts were carried out the whole time.

                            And even those who didn't vote... What if they wanted to vote for Bush anyways? Then there choice in the matter would still have caused a potential illegal act by the government.

                            And to flip it on you... If you voted for Bush, are you saying that you are partially responsible for the illegal actions of the president you've chosen?
                            I do understand what you are saying, but.
                            With the number of people that vote now a days it would be easier to rig an election then if the whole group who are eligible to vote did.
                            When one state like Florida can decide the outcome because of the poor voter turnout it makes rigging a lot easier. Think of it like this.
                            It's easy to 'lose' a few votes, much harder to lose a few million.

                            If they wanted to vote for Bush, then at least we would have a president elected by the people. Not saying we would be better off right now, but if the president knew the people in this country where paying attention and voicing their opinions in the voting booth I like to think we would have better officials in office then we do now.
                            And to flip it on you... If you voted for Bush, are you saying that you are partially responsible for the illegal actions of the president you've chosen?
                            I know you don't mean me personally cause if you think for half a second I would vote for that ahole then you really don't have a clue about me.
                            If they voted for him the first time, no.
                            If they voted for him the second time then yes.
                            If the citizens of this country where as passionate about voting as they where about complaining then I don't think we would be in the mess we're in now.
                            By not voting and saying it doesn't matter you are playing right into the hands of the officials we have in power at the moment. They count on people not voting. The only real say you have in our government comes in November.
                            If you vote for someone and they get elected and screw up the next time you vote for someone else. It sends the message to the politicians that they work for us and if they don't do the job we sent them there to do they get fired.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
                              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                              By not voting and saying it doesn't matter you are playing right into the hands of the officials we have in power at the moment. They count on people not voting. The only real say you have in our government comes in November.
                              If you vote for someone and they get elected and screw up the next time you vote for someone else. It sends the message to the politicians that they work for us and if they don't do the job we sent them there to do they get fired.
                              I understand what you mean and I can agree with that.

                              But at the same time, what if my beliefs and values are not aligned with the chosen 2?

                              Am I just suppose to pick one for the hell of it?

                              I won't play into the hands of those in power. I hear many people complain about both candidates now.

                              Do you actually LIKE either of the candidates, or just choosing one because there is no other option?

                              If all of America didn't vote, I think we might gain more power and control.

                              Maybe thats wrong, but I can't see myself voting for someone just because hes "the better choice".

                              If I vote for someone, then I'm putting my belief, trust, and faith into that person, and I couldn't do that with the type of clowns we have on stage..

                              Does that make sense?
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                        • Profile picture of the author myob
                          Thanks, Thom for your clarification. I am a betting man and I am betting we're going to get through this, get it right and recover. We always have in the past. I did not say there was NO rigging of elections, I said there is no proof this rigging was widespread enough to affect the election.

                          There will always be controversy about this, and "conspiracies". But as a betting man I'm betting that of those who have posted in this thread so far two people here have even voted at all. There is much more at stake in the coming election than just presidential candidates.

                          We choose representatives and issues so that one person or group never has enough power to corrupt. Take your passion to the polls. Nothing will get done by just whining about it here.

                          Outside Independence Hall in Philadelphia when the Constitutional Convention of 1787 ended, someone asked Benjamin Franklin, "... what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" Franklin responded, "A republic, if you can keep it."

                          A nation of a well informed populace who have been taught to know and prize the rights for which our Founding Fathers envisioned cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance and apathy that tyranny begins.
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                          • Profile picture of the author nico52
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                            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                              Originally Posted by nico52 View Post

                              All I have to say is that if you don't like what is going on in the country you live in then the door is always open for you to leave. No one is keeping anyone here. If you feel like everything you are saying is true then by all means pack your bags and see what the rest of the world has to offer.

                              It is just amazing to hear everyone talk about how Americas standing in the world has gone down. Yet there are still millions of people a year trying to get into this country both legally and illegally.

                              I just had to put that out there.

                              Adam
                              Actually - packing and leaving isn't as easy as it once was. For the first thing - you can't cross a border (except the Mexican, if you want to try your hand at surviving that move in light of the drug cartel massacres going on down there now) unless you are damned well ALLOWED to go. Many are being refused the right to leave because of the list of over one million "terrorists" that Homeland Security has compiled - that list includes you if you have said "Constitution" too loudly too often. Do you feel safe yet?
                              Secondly -- there is action now, it's one of those "hidden deals" that Homeland Security has devised against us --- that if you decide to leave and renounce your citizenship - you lose EVERYTHING. They will seize your property, your bank accounts, cars --everything you thought YOU owned -- everything you worked and invested to give to yourself and your family. Try living in a foreign country with nothing to start out on. You better have friends or relatives waiting for you if you can get out to them at all.

                              It nauseates me that people aren't watching what is going on more closely. Some people still don't know what "telecom immunity" means.
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                              Sal
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                  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                    Yes it was proven. There were 4 in Ohio that have been arrested for it. Scientists have proven how easily the diebolt machines are tampered. Not to mention that it was found that machines are taken home at night by people
                    during the elections.

                    In the caucuses this year, in one of the Eastern states (forget which one) one district that was small reported 0 votes for Ron Paul and the residents knew otherwise and reported it - there has been a frenzy on turning the voting to paper trail this time around, but even a paper trail needs counters.
                    There is a movement of lawyers right now that are going to be stationing themselves at the voting polls (like that word?) this year to make sure that everyone gets their right to vote as many precincts are trying to keep legal voters from participating (democrats mostly).

                    In Oregon College students were told that they can't vote if their parents claim them on their tax returns - and the clerks got caught. In Michigan there is a lawsuit pending against officials who are refusing to let anyone with homes in repo vote.

                    Diebold Management:
                    Con Job at Diebold Subsidiary

                    Interesting - diebold also makes atm machines and other machines that produce paper trails. ? but voting machines can't? LOL.

                    Want to keep up with the vote fraud issues? This is a great site:
                    Black Box Voting - America's Elections Watchdog Group
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                    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas Wilkinson
    Maybe we could wake up Richard Nixon and ask him.

    T.W.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Yeh dumb as a rock is immune too apparently.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    A law should be passed making it a crime for the president to be an idiot Then there would lots of evidence.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      They have enough evidence to have put up 36 articles of impeachment and the whole fiasco is in Judiciary review. If you didn't see the impeachment hearings on C-Span you missed quite a show.

      Now all we have to do is find a few judges who actually believe in justice and....oh....never mind.
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      Sal
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        They have enough evidence to have put up 36 articles of impeachment and the whole fiasco is in Judiciary review. If you didn't see the impeachment hearings on C-Span you missed quite a show.

        Now all we have to do is find a few judges who actually believe in justice and....oh....never mind.
        Never mind, it would be a waste of time. Corruption in high places is nothing new; beginning with our very first administration. You just have to learn to accept that and play the system.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    HeySal I think you should go to law school and be a lawyer.
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