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Why prison labor is wrong

by gareth
87 replies
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Many complain that prison labor is wrong because it takes jobs.

China has hundreds of thousands in forced labor. Maybe as many as 1 million but possibly much less.

Heres the problem, say with this many people in forced labor for crimes such as drug's or disagreeing with the corrupt government - clearly there is an economic advantage being derived from the cheap labor.

Thus it is then economically advantageous to have people detained into forced labor.

Then we can conclude that the state is being rewarded economically for the fact that these people committed various crimes or non-crimes.

So if more people commit crime more will be detained and the state derives further economic benefit.

For this reason it is dysfunctional.
  • Profile picture of the author Radix
    Originally Posted by gareth View Post

    Many complain that prison labor is wrong because it takes jobs.

    China has hundreds of thousands in forced labor. Maybe as many as 1 million but possibly much less.

    Heres the problem, say with this many people in forced labor for crimes such as drug's or disagreeing with the corrupt government - clearly there is an economic advantage being derived from the cheap labor.

    Thus it is then economically advantageous to have people detained into forced labor.

    Then we can conclude that the state is being rewarded economically for the fact that these people committed various crimes or non-crimes.

    So if more people commit crime more will be detained and the state derives further economic benefit.

    For this reason it is dysfunctional.

    In the US we pay to feed, clothe, house, medically treat and educate the very people who have committed crimes against society. In return they give us nothing. For my money they should at least work to cover their expense to the state.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
      Originally Posted by Radix View Post

      In the US we pay to feed, clothe, house, medically treat and educate the very people who have committed crimes against society. In return they give us nothing. For my money they should at least work to cover their expense to the state.
      Exactly.

      I remember hearing a story about a homeless man who went up to a lady on the street, who he didn't know, and stabbed her in the chest so he could go to jail.

      He wanted the shelter, food, workout time, and TV. Sounds pretty relaxing compared to living in the cold year round collecting bottles.

      Zach
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by Zach Booker View Post

        Exactly.

        I remember hearing a story about a homeless man who went up to a lady on the street, who he didn't know, and stabbed her in the chest so he could go to jail.

        He wanted the shelter, food, workout time, and TV. Sounds pretty relaxing compared to living in the cold year round collecting bottles.

        Zach
        There are also a lot of jailbirds who, upon release, commit another crime so they can have a roof over their head and a couple of meals a day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by gareth View Post

    Many complain that prison labor is wrong because it takes jobs.

    China has hundreds of thousands in forced labor. Maybe as many as 1 million but possibly much less.

    Heres the problem, say with this many people in forced labor for crimes such as drug's or disagreeing with the corrupt government - clearly there is an economic advantage being derived from the cheap labor.

    Thus it is then economically advantageous to have people detained into forced labor.

    Then we can conclude that the state is being rewarded economically for the fact that these people committed various crimes or non-crimes.

    So if more people commit crime more will be detained and the state derives further economic benefit.

    For this reason it is dysfunctional.
    America has the world's largest prison population (25% of all prisoners in the world are American). Despite China having 5 times the population of the U.S., there are 500,000 more Americans in prison than there are Chinese, and prisoner labour is a huge business there.

    While there are many arguments in favour of it, the number 1 problem with it (aside from the increased potential for abuse of prisoners when you pass them into private hands) is that using prisoners for forced labour (and it is forced labour, since refusing to work will land you in solitary confinement, as does complaining about working conditions) fosters an incentive to lock up as many people as possible.

    It's one of the fastest growing industries in the U.S. and corporate stockholders who benefit from it lobby for prison time for a greater range of offences (to create a larger labour force), minimum sentences (which guarantees labour for a set period), and longer sentences for even minor infractions while in prison (which makes the prisoner available to work for an even longer period). There's now even a sort-of "rent-a-cell" system where prisons with too much labour rent them out to other prisons with a labour shortage.

    A quick Google search will reveal many stories of companies who left the US to take advantage of cheaper wages in the third-world, relocating back to the US to take advantage of the even-cheaper "wages" of forced labourers in American prisons, as well as companies that got rid of their regular workers to contact the services of the prison labour business. Also, there is a problem with corruption, like the "kids for cash" scandal where a Judge in Pennsylvania (I think) was paid by private juvenile detention facilities to impose harsher sentences so they get to keep their inmates for a longer period.

    It's a very slippery slope: It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the end point for such a system is some hapless Joe Bloggs doing several years of slave labour for jaywalking, alongside Jim Bloggs, doing the same for an expired driving licence, both chained to dozens more doing hard labour for similar "crimes" with maybe a murderer or two scattered among them.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      America has the world's largest prison population (25% of all prisoners in the world are American). Despite China having 5 times the population of the U.S., there are 500,000 more Americans in prison than there are Chinese, and prisoner labour is a huge business there.
      Don't you LOVE how people can speak improper English, and TOTALLY distort things! *****WRONG***** The U.S. might have 25% of the prisoners, or 25% of the prisons, but it is NOT true that 25% of the prisoners are American. HECK, most that ARE really don't see themselves as American anyway!

      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      While there are many arguments in favour of it, the number 1 problem with it (aside from the increased potential for abuse of prisoners when you pass them into private hands) is that using prisoners for forced labour (and it is forced labour, since refusing to work will land you in solitary confinement, as does complaining about working conditions) fosters an incentive to lock up as many people as possible.
      It is NOT forced labor! MOST prisoners KNOWINGLY put themselves into that position!!!!!

      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      It's one of the fastest growing industries in the U.S. and corporate stockholders who benefit from it lobby for prison time for a greater range of offences (to create a larger labour force), minimum sentences (which guarantees labour for a set period), and longer sentences for even minor infractions while in prison (which makes the prisoner available to work for an even longer period). There's now even a sort-of "rent-a-cell" system where prisons with too much labour rent them out to other prisons with a labour shortage.
      I would REALLY love to know where you here THAT! It would NOT generally be allowed to have them work with the public, or in areas that require privacy or security. A lot of manufacturing jobs are STILL in foreign lands!

      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      A quick Google search will reveal many stories of companies who left the US to take advantage of cheaper wages in the third-world, relocating back to the US to take advantage of the even-cheaper "wages" of forced labourers in American prisons, as well as companies that got rid of their regular workers to contact the services of the prison labour business. Also, there is a problem with corruption, like the "kids for cash" scandal where a Judge in Pennsylvania (I think) was paid by private juvenile detention facilities to impose harsher sentences so they get to keep their inmates for a longer period.
      That IS against the law, in the US! That judge could find HIMSELF locked up in jail, and he could be DISBARRED! Things have a minimum and maximum sentence, and are to be given based on the circumstances.

      BTW The corporations should pay perhaps 25% below market rates, and the profit should go to the STATE! I realize that isn't generally how it is done, but there ARE many that feel as I do here.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Don't you LOVE how people can speak improper English, and TOTALLY distort things! *****WRONG***** The U.S. might have 25% of the prisoners, or 25% of the prisons, but it is NOT true that 25% of the prisoners are American. HECK, most that ARE really don't see themselves as American anyway!
        You're just playing with words, Steve, but, if it makes you feel any better, I'll rephrase it like this: Out of all the prisoners in the whole world, 25% of them are in prisons located within the United States.

        Actually, I just googled the figures and, apparently, the total number of foreign prisoners held in prisons located within the United States is about 5%. So, if I've done my sums correctly, then, out of the 25% of the world's prisoners held in prisons located within the United States, about 95% of them ARE Americans, meaning 23.75% of all prisoners in the world ARE Americans. Therefore, I humbly apologise for my 1.25% discrepency.

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        It is NOT forced labor! MOST prisoners KNOWINGLY put themselves into that position!!!!!
        Yes, it is, and no, they don't. But, if it also makes you feel better, call it something else: "unfree labour" perhaps? Either way, it still the same thing: involuntary work carried out under threat of penalty.

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        It would NOT generally be allowed to have them work with the public.
        They work in the prison.

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        That IS against the law, in the US! That judge could find HIMSELF locked up in jail, and he could be DISBARRED!
        ****************** I know!!! (times 3) ******************

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Tommy - most Americans don't realize that prisons here are actually corporations. We may pay for building them with our taxes - but the profits are immeasurable for the owners and stockholders. We have an ever mounting list of "illegalities" which put people in prison. Look at the marijuana laws. Most pot smokers are not dangerous - pot doesn't result in violent behavior. Making it illegal allowed for the development of a vast black market and took the substance off of medical shelves where it shows to have extreme benefit. Yet hundreds of thousands are now, or have been, in prison just for smoking a joint........where they are subject to slavery. These people were not one tad of a threat to society.

    The one company I walked out of for their abusive behavior years ago had quite a few forced prison laborers. This company also knew that in our state there is no legal limit to the hours a company can work a person. One of the guys there was in prison for smoking - not selling, smoking - pot. He is dead now. They worked him to death-- because he got caught smoking a joint.

    Now there are people doing hard labor because they weren't making enough to live and had to decide for food and shelter over their car insurance to get to their under-paying jobs. I'm really afraid of those hard cored dudes. Best we should lock them up and torture them at will for the price we can get on their heads.

    Now don't get on me that I am suggesting we are opening concentration camps - that is not what I am saying here - but.....
    The sad truth is that right now we COULD open concentration camps and with just a small amount of propaganda circulated by our TV news reporters a very large chunk of our population could be made to think that the action was a marvelous idea.

    We've become a nation of very persecuting and self righteous people who don't understand that allowing a small portion of people to be abused risks a future in which ALL citizens are abused.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by Radix View Post

    In the US we pay to feed, clothe, house, medically treat and educate the very people who have committed crimes against society. In return they give us nothing. For my money they should at least work to cover their expense to the state.
    You say "in return, they give us nothing" but that implies of voluntary contract where there is none. The reason prisons exist at all is because society says that, to maintain order, your behaviour must fall within certain limits and, if you breach those limits, it (society) will punish you by depriving you of your freedom for a certain period of time.

    While the effectivness of that punishment might be open to question, it forms part of the social contract every person is welded to from birth. You give up the freedom to behave however you want regardless of the effect it has on other people and, in return, you receive social order from society (via the government or some other authorty).

    Bearing the cost of that system is part of the deal but, to be honest, feeding and clothing prisoners is a small price to pay when you consider what the cost would be if society held nobody to account for their actions.

    Tommy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Radix
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      You say "in return, they give us nothing" but that implies of voluntary contract where there is none. The reason prisons exist at all is because society says that, to maintain order, your behaviour must fall within certain limits and, if you breach those limits, it (society) will punish you by depriving you of your freedom for a certain period of time.

      While the effectivness of that punishment might be open to question, it forms part of the social contract every person is welded to from birth. You give up the freedom to behave however you want regardless of the effect it has on other people and, in return, you receive social order from society (via the government or some other authorty).

      Bearing the cost of that system is part of the deal but, to be honest, feeding and clothing prisoners is a small price to pay when you consider what the cost would be if society held nobody to account for their actions.

      Tommy.
      My point was they should be doing something to pay their own way through life, even if incarcerated. Committing a crime was their choice. Their lack of freedom is a direct result of their failure to value it.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Radix View Post

        My point was they should be doing something to pay their own way through life, even if incarcerated. Committing a crime was their choice. Their lack of freedom is a direct result of their failure to value it.
        So you feel it is right to throw someone in jail who drove without insurance to get to a job so they and their family wouldn't starve or go without a roof - then force them to work for free for private share-holders? You don't get the profits that they earn - shareholders get it. Taxpayers pay for the prisons and the stockholders reap any benefits earned by the slave. In the meantime laws are put in place that violate human rights so that a minority will be subjected to imprisonment for reasons of feeding the beast alone rather than to keep them from being a danger to those around them.


        See post above - re: concentration camps.
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas
        Originally Posted by Radix View Post

        My point was they should be doing something to pay their own way through life, even if incarcerated. Committing a crime was their choice. Their lack of freedom is a direct result of their failure to value it.
        In some circumstances, I might tend to agree with you but what any one person thinks others should or shouldn't be doing with their lives is irrelevant, as, I think, are people's motivations for actually commiting crimes in the first place.

        At the end of the day, society desires social order. You could even say it demands it. Part of the method it uses to achieve that (successfully or not) is the imprisonment of those whose behaviour is contrary to that demand. If there is a cost incurred in doing so, then it is rightfully there for society itself to bear. Nobody else. Not even the prisoners themselves.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
          Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

          In some circumstances, I might tend to agree with you but what any one person thinks others should or shouldn't be doing with their lives is irrelevant, as, I think, are people's motivations for actually commiting crimes in the first place.

          At the end of the day, society desires social order. You could even say it demands it. Part of the method it uses to achieve that (successfully or not) is the imprisonment of those whose behaviour is contrary to that demand. If there is a cost incurred in doing so, then it is rightfully there for society itself to bear. Nobody else. Not even the prisoners themselves.
          Society did not force the prisoners to commit the crime, why should society be forced to pay for them?

          Prisons should be crapholes, locked down for nothing but labor or 1 hour exercise. No weight benches, no cable tv, no ac, no education. You are put in a can, seperated from the rest of the population until your time is over. Dont like it? dont commit crimes and go to jail.

          Chain gains should be reinstituted in every state and used to supplement the state workforce as the state/county/city sees fit.
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas
            Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

            Society did not force the prisoners to commit the crime, why should society be forced to pay for them?
            Society doesn't force people to commit crimes, but it does force them to answer for those crimes. It incurs the costs of imprisonment because that is the means by which it forces them to do so. If it didn't, then, obviously, there would be no such cost. However, if society doesn't force people to account for their actions in some way (leaving them free to behave however they want regardless of how it affects other people), you would see a breakdown in social order and, in due course, you can kiss society itself goodbye.

            Put simply:
            1. Society cannot exist without order.
            2. Therefore, to protect its existence, it sanctions anyone who creates disorder within it.
            3. Imprisonment is a means by which it sanctions them.
            4. But imprisonment carries a cost.
            5. Therefore, society pays for imprisonment.
            6. In return, society continues to exist.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
              Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

              Society doesn't force people to commit crimes, but it does force them to answer for those crimes. It incurs the costs of imprisonment because that is the means by which it forces them to do so. If it didn't, then, obviously, there would be no such cost. However, if society doesn't force people to account for their actions in some way (leaving them free to behave however they want regardless of how it affects other people), you would see a breakdown in social order and, in due course, you can kiss society itself goodbye.

              Put simply:
              1. Society cannot exist without order.
              2. Therefore, to protect its existence, it sanctions anyone who creates disorder within it.
              3. Imprisonment is a means by which it sanctions them.
              4. But imprisonment carries a cost.
              5. Therefore, society pays for imprisonment.
              6. In return, society continues to exist.
              So let me see if I understand your point of view.

              Criminals are society's fault because if there were no laws in the first place, there would be none to break? And since it's society's fault for making the laws in the first place, society should have to bear the cost for the criminals actions (which are only illegal because of those pesky laws society made up) which caused them to break the law.

              that about right?
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              • Profile picture of the author Thomas
                Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                So let me see if I understand your point of view.

                Criminals are society's fault because if there were no laws in the first place, there would be none to break? And since it's society's fault for making the laws in the first place, society should have to bear the cost for the criminals actions (which are only illegal because of those pesky laws society made up) which caused them to break the law.

                that about right?
                Ah yes, sarcasm. That always indicates when you understand someone's point of view alright! :rolleyes:
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                • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                  Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

                  Ah yes, sarcasm. That always indicates when you understand a point of view! :rolleyes:
                  I wasnt being sarcastic. Thats what your point of view sounds like to me. The criminal bears all responsibility for their actions. They have a 'debt' to society to pay, until that debt is paid, they are a ward of the state, aka a charge in society's care....technically property of the city/state/federal government.

                  Why should they be allowed relative comfort when they broke the law?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
                    Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                    I wasnt being sarcastic. Thats what your point of view sounds like to me. The criminal bears all responsibility for their actions. They have a 'debt' to society to pay, until that debt is paid, they are a ward of the state, aka a charge in society's care....technically property of the city/state/federal government.

                    Why should they be allowed relative comfort when they broke the law?
                    You're basically saying the same thing I did (except for the "property" part; prisoners are not property): Society demands order. So anyone who creates disorder is sanctioned. The means by which society sanctions them is imprisonment. It's not possible to imprison people for free but the cost of doing so is borne by society because that is what is required to achieve it's demand for order.

                    I didn't say anything about comfortable prisons, or that criminals are society's fault, or anything else you've said along those lines. That all came out of your head, not mine.
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                • Profile picture of the author gareth
                  Actually I should rephrase my title

                  Really I don't object to prison labor if the administration extracts no economic benefit from that labor.

                  In the army here they have prison labor and do things like throw a bucket of stones on the concrete & then make you pick them up on your knee's. The process is repeated for several hours.

                  Its not torture, its forced labor & the government derives no pecuniary advantage from it so its not slavery either.

                  But as soon as somebody is making a profit from the labor it becomes slavery & it becomes advantageous to have people committing crimes to fill the system with labor.

                  There is labor of this type here where prisoners are made to work in the forest & manufacture goods. What you eventually end up with is a situation like China at present.

                  We don't want this, it takes jobs from decent people also.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                    Originally Posted by gareth View Post

                    Actually I should rephrase my title

                    Really I don't object to prison labor if the administration extracts no economic benefit from that labor.

                    In the army here they have prison labor and do things like throw a bucket of stones on the concrete & then make you pick them up on your knee's. The process is repeated for several hours.

                    Its not torture, its forced labor & the government derives no pecuniary advantage from it so its not slavery either.

                    But as soon as somebody is making a profit from the labor it becomes slavery & it becomes advantageous to have people committing crimes to fill the system with labor.

                    There is labor of this type here where prisoners are made to work in the forest & manufacture goods. What you eventually end up with is a situation like China at present.

                    We don't want this, it takes jobs from decent people also.

                    how is throwing stones on concrete and making you pick them up on your knees 'labor'?
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            • Profile picture of the author jimmymc
              Robbing a Federal Bank and waiting for the cops to come has been my retirement plan for quite sometime.
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              • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
                Originally Posted by jimmymc View Post

                Robbing a Federal Bank and waiting for the cops to come has been my retirement plan for quite sometime.
                lolol. That cracked me up. I had to give a thanks for that
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          • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
            Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

            Society did not force the prisoners to commit the crime, why should society be forced to pay for them?

            Prisons should be crapholes, locked down for nothing but labor or 1 hour exercise. No weight benches, no cable tv, no ac, no education. You are put in a can, seperated from the rest of the population until your time is over. Dont like it? dont commit crimes and go to jail.

            Chain gains should be reinstituted in every state and used to supplement the state workforce as the state/county/city sees fit.
            What then?
            Summary executions?
            Gas chambers?

            As long as corporations make a profit from people being thrown in jail, the corporation's paid employees (sometimes known as politicians) will keep coming up with more and more ways to throw people in jail.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      There seems to be a widespread opinion among Americans that as soon as someone is in prison, the keys should be thrown away and they no longer deserve any rights, sympathy or consideration whatsoever.

      This might be a valid point of view if you think that the law enforcement and justice system is infallible, and that all laws on the books are completely justified, and that an innocent person is never, ever convicted of a crime they didn't do.

      It might also be a valid point of view if the prisons were full of nothing but violent murderers and rapists. However, the four-fold increase in the U.S. prison population in the last 30 years is mostly due to the insane War on Drugs, and are non-violent offenders. On the other hand, violent crimes have declined in the U.S. in the last 15 years, contrary to the constant fear-mongering of the media and "authorities."

      Also, 70% of those in prison are non-white, which at least suggests the possibility of unequal conviction and sentencing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

        There seems to be a widespread opinion among Americans that as soon as someone is in prison, the keys should be thrown away and they no longer deserve any rights, sympathy or consideration whatsoever.

        This might be a valid point of view if you think that the law enforcement and justice system is infallible, and that all laws on the books are completely justified, and that an innocent person is never, ever convicted of a crime they didn't do.

        It might also be a valid point of view if the prisons were full of nothing but violent murderers and rapists. However, the four-fold increase in the U.S. prison population in the last 30 years is mostly due to the insane War on Drugs, and are non-violent offenders. On the other hand, violent crimes have declined in the U.S. in the last 15 years, contrary to the constant fear-mongering of the media and "authorities."

        Also, 70% of those in prison are non-white, which at least suggests the possibility of unequal conviction and sentencing.
        It doesnt matter if you think the laws are just or not. They are the laws. If you dont like the laws, then you work to change the laws, but you dont just do whatever the hell you feel like doing then play the victim when you are then made to pay for your crimes.

        And im sorry, but I dont buy that whole crap about the courts being racially biased. People want to be PC and not say it, but there are more blacks than whites in the prison system because there are more blacks than whites committing crimes.
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post


        Also, 70% of those in prison are non-white, which at least suggests the possibility of unequal conviction and sentencing.
        Ok, let me just get this out here: I'm not racist at all. I adopted my oldest daughter and she's a minority.

        Having said that, the "logic" that you've attempted to present is pretty flawed. To me, it suggests exactly what it says.

        Of course, ask the majority of inmates who are doing time for "small crimes" and they'll tell you they are innocent, waiting for an appeal, were framed, etc. Very few actually admit they're guilty. And, those that do, are generally the ones there who've been put away for a long time.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Thomas,

    MANY of the foreigners in US jails would be considered citizens for a lot of reasons. It has to do with the census, media, and something called PC. And we basically have "culture" wars all over. They aren't that obvious unless you have many of the same culture in an area and it is low class with regard tp income, education, etc... but THEN it becomes VERY obvious. In jails, they form cliques. But they really don't even see themselves as Americans. They think America has a conspiracy to keep them down. AGAIN, sometimes they even SAY that.

    But YEAH, NOBODY should profit financially from their labor. The STATE should get all the profit, and use it to pay for services to citizens. THE PRISONERS should pay for their own upkeep! And that means they should NT get TV, CABLE, FILMS, WEIGHTROOMS, HUGE MEALS, RECESS, GOOD HEALTHCARE, ETC.... Those are LUXURIES and, as such, the funds that WOULD have been used to pay for them should be used to pay back society. After all, prison is supposed to PUNISH!!!!!!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    OK.

    Build prisons on the ocean floor. No gaurds to pay because the prisoners dare not escape.

    Give them a handful of beans.
    If they grow, the prisoners eat.

    Or, use "Escape From New York" as a blueprint.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    WEIGHTROOMS, HUGE MEALS, RECESS, GOOD HEALTHCARE, ETC.... Those are LUXURIES
    So you are saying if someone gets nailed for not being able to afford insurance or breaking other laws that are based more on a person's wealth than on their propensity to be dangerous, the system has a right to deny them any ability to keep their body healthy while being confined? They get two years in the pen for no insurance and they come out so diseased and debilitated that they CAN'T resume a normal self-sufficient life, which has incidentally been shortened considerably in such confinement that you describe?

    That is precisely what I meant by concentration camp mentality. To not give someone a tv might be reasonable, but to deny them food and exercise with some of the laws people are thrown into jail for now days? I can see how people might not care what happens to a murderer - but you would extend this kind a treatment to someone who smoked a joint, couldn't pay car insurance, or maybe took a swing at some obnoxious idiot who really deserved to be hit?

    We all know that if we haven't been caught doing something that we could go to jail for it means we have never done anything we could have been arrested for - or just wrongfully accused, or were in circumstances that we were not allowed prima-facae judgment on. If you had drank enough to be over the legal limit and your wife went into anaphalexic (sp) shock, the only way to save her was to drive drunk - which would land you in jail if caught, you'd let her die? What if some guy walked up and grabbed her chest in front of you? You would NEVER take a swing at him - an offense that could land you in jail? And once you were put behind bars it would be okay to starve you because you are a CRIMINAL?

    Open up those camps. Americans are ready to feed on each other for a few bucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      So you are saying if someone gets nailed for not being able to afford insurance or breaking other laws that are based more on a person's wealth than on their propensity to be dangerous, the system has a right to deny them any ability to keep their body healthy while being confined? They get two years in the pen for no insurance and they come out so diseased and debilitated that they CAN'T resume a normal self-sufficient life, which has incidentally been shortened considerably in such confinement that you describe?
      who is getting 2 years in the pen for not being able to afford insurance?

      That is precisely what I meant by concentration camp mentality. To not give someone a tv might be reasonable, but to deny them food and exercise with some of the laws people are thrown into jail for now days? I can see how people might not care what happens to a murderer - but you would extend this kind a treatment to someone who smoked a joint, couldn't pay car insurance, or maybe took a swing at some obnoxious idiot who really deserved to be hit?
      laws are laws. you can't pick and choose what laws you are going to follow today becase they don't fit your plans, or because someone was an obnoxious idiot.

      We all know that if we haven't been caught doing something that we could go to jail for it means we have never done anything we could have been arrested for - or just wrongfully accused, or were in circumstances that we were not allowed prima-facae judgment on. If you had drank enough to be over the legal limit and your wife went into anaphalexic (sp) shock, the only way to save her was to drive drunk - which would land you in jail if caught, you'd let her die? What if some guy walked up and grabbed her chest in front of you? You would NEVER take a swing at him - an offense that could land you in jail? And once you were put behind bars it would be okay to starve you because you are a CRIMINAL?

      Open up those camps. Americans are ready to feed on each other for a few bucks.
      What you want to do and what is within the law isn't always the same thing.

      So let me put it to you in the same fashion. Do you think that the guy that raped 10 college students at the local community college should get 3 hots and a cot, nice modern jail facility, free education, unlimited access to substantial exercise equipment so that in the 3-4 years or whatever piddly little time they give the guy he grows bigger and stronger while being housed in what is essentially a criminal college, learning new tricks of the trade? He's got free cable, and depending on where he's at can learn a new trade, even get paid while serving his time, but there are 10 families that are torn apart, lives destroyed, dreams shot that cant afford the education or even the cable tv
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        I don't know what the exact stats are but most prisons don't have cable anymore. I do know that no Florida prisons have any cable. Plus, there have been many prisons that have stopped providing weight equipment simply because having bigger dangerous dudes doesn't make much sense for when they are still in prison and for when they get out. Most prisons are not great places to live and suicide, or attempted suicide is common.
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        • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          I don't know what the exact stats are but most prisons don't have cable anymore. I do know that no Florida prisons have any cable. Plus, there have been many prisons that have stopped providing weight equipment simply because having bigger dangerous dudes doesn't make much sense for when they are still in prison and for when they get out. Most prisons are not great places to live and suicide, or attempted suicide is common.
          Most states still have cable. Regardless when you have 2.3 million people incarcerated at a cost of roughly $30,000-60,000 per inmate it adds up. There most certainly should be some system in which these inmates pay their debt back to society while incarcerated - hopefully we all aren't under some illusion that the majority of those who come back into society pay back their debt. (Meaning $30,000-60,000 in tax paid times the amount of years in jail.)

          A 2002 study survey showed that among nearly 275,000 prisoners released in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison.[46] However, the study found no evidence that spending more time in prison raises the recidivism rate, and found that those serving the longest time, 61 months or more, had a significantly lower re-arrest rate (54.2%) than every other category of prisoner. This is most likely explained by the older average age of those released with the longest sentences, and the study shows a strong negative correlation between recidivism and age upon release.
          According to December 2009 info online from the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) $68,747,203,000 was spent on corrections in 2006
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

        Do you think that the guy that raped 10 college students at the local community college should get 3 hots and a cot, nice modern jail facility, free education, unlimited access to substantial exercise equipment so that in the 3-4 years or whatever piddly little time they give the guy he grows bigger and stronger while being housed in what is essentially a criminal college, learning new tricks of the trade? He's got free cable, and depending on where he's at can learn a new trade, even get paid while serving his time, but there are 10 families that are torn apart, lives destroyed, dreams shot that cant afford the education or even the cable tv
        Is this something that really happened? Guy raped 10 people and only got 3 years for it? When and where?

        Even if it did, it's a very extreme example -- how often does that happen? Most of the people in U.S. prisons now are there for non-violent offenses.

        Laws are made by humans and are therefore fallible. Since you're into extreme examples, here's another one: If, during World War II, a Jew in Germany told you he had a chance to escape the country, would you tell him not to do it because he'd be breaking one or more laws of his nation at that time?

        How about people in places like North Korea, the old Soviet Union, or Iraq under Saddam? Are they obligated to always obey the laws made by those in power, no matter what? Would you tell them to "work through the system" to change the laws if they didn't like them?

        Slavery was once the law of the land in the U.S., as was segregation. It took breaking the laws through civil disobedience to change them. Were the slaves supposed to just shut up and accept their lot because it was the law?
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          Is this something that really happened? Guy raped 10 people and only got 3 years for it? When and where?

          Even if it did, it's a very extreme example -- how often does that happen? Most of the people in U.S. prisons now are there for non-violent offenses.

          Laws are made by humans and are therefore fallible. Since you're into extreme examples, here's another one: If, during World War II, a Jew in Germany told you he had a chance to escape the country, would you tell him not to do it because he'd be breaking one or more laws of his nation at that time?

          How about people in places like North Korea, the old Soviet Union, or Iraq under Saddam? Are they obligated to always obey the laws made by those in power, no matter what? Would you tell them to "work through the system" to change the laws if they didn't like them?

          Slavery was once the law of the land in the U.S., as was segregation. It took breaking the laws through civil disobedience to change them. Were the slaves supposed to just shut up and accept their lot because it was the law?
          my example happens every day. Yours are extreme examples in extreme settings. A dope dealer isnt the same thing as a slave, A guy caught with a pocket full of crack isnt the same thing as a jew in a labor camp during wwII.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

            my example happens every day. Yours are extreme examples in extreme settings. A dope dealer isnt the same thing as a slave, A guy caught with a pocket full of crack isnt the same thing as a jew in a labor camp during wwII.
            Of COURSE NOT! Did ANYONE claim they were? A guy caught with a pocket full of crack may be a dope dealer. A dope dealer is the same thing as a slave OWNER or a NAZI! THINK about it! They often have weapons, have gangs, push you into horrible circumstances, etc.... At least the NAZIs were often out in the open.

            Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      So you are saying if someone gets nailed for not being able to afford insurance or breaking other laws that are based more on a person's wealth than on their propensity to be dangerous, the system has a right to deny them any ability to keep their body healthy while being confined? They get two years in the pen for no insurance and they come out so diseased and debilitated that they CAN'T resume a normal self-sufficient life, which has incidentally been shortened considerably in such confinement that you describe?
      The healthcare in prison goes FAR farther than merely being for health. HECK, some have had SEX CHANGE operations! One guy has a "makeup artist" cover his markings every day for over $150/day! GRANTED, he is on trial, but that is HIM! HE did it! Why should WE pay for it!?!? Insurance doesn't cost THAT much, and EVERYONE is supposed to pay for it. HECK, I couldn't drive my OWN car home because I didn't have insurance, my FATHER did it, SMOKING ALL THE WAY! I had to suffer for about THREE YEARS! So why should others be given a free walk?

      That is precisely what I meant by concentration camp mentality. To not give someone a tv might be reasonable, but to deny them food and exercise with some of the laws people are thrown into jail for now days? I can see how people might not care what happens to a murderer - but you would extend this kind a treatment to someone who smoked a joint, couldn't pay car insurance, or maybe took a swing at some obnoxious idiot who really deserved to be hit?
      GEE, I have to PAY for food, and they don't give me seconds unless I pay AGAIN! Healthclubs ALSO cost money!

      I know that if we haven't been caught doing something that we could go to jail for it means we have never done anything we could have been arrested for - or just wrongfully accused, or were in circumstances that we were not allowed prima-facae judgment on. If you had drank enough to be over the legal limit and your wife went into anaphalexic (sp) shock, the only way to save her was to drive drunk - which would land you in jail if caught, you'd let her die? What if some guy walked up and grabbed her chest in front of you? You would NEVER take a swing at him - an offense that could land you in jail? And once you were put behind bars it would be okay to starve you because you are a CRIMINAL?

      Open up those camps. Americans are ready to feed on each other for a few bucks.
      Well, look at the OTHER side! If the law were fairer, some gy wouldn't grab her chest! A car driven by a drunk kills JUST as well!!!!!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        The healthcare in prison goes FAR farther than merely being for health. HECK, some have had SEX CHANGE operations! One guy has a "makeup artist" cover his markings every day for over $150/day! GRANTED, he is on trial, but that is HIM! HE did it! Why should WE pay for it!?!? Insurance doesn't cost THAT much, and EVERYONE is supposed to pay for it. HECK, I couldn't drive my OWN car home because I didn't have insurance, my FATHER did it, SMOKING ALL THE WAY! I had to suffer for about THREE YEARS! So why should others be given a free walk?
        Well heck yes - there should be limits on health care to conditions that actually threaten health. If you can get me a full body makeover so I can look 25 again, sign me the hell up. I'll be glad to go smoke a joint in front of the local cop shop for a $50 grand make over.

        If that is the kind of "health care" you meant, yes, I agree - NOT. But necessary health care, I can't agree should be withheld - that is cruel and unusual punishment for the extent of crimes that people are now incarcerated for.



        GEE, I have to PAY for food, and they don't give me seconds unless I pay AGAIN! Healthclubs ALSO cost money!
        I'm sorry - the idea of locking someone up and starving them when they have no way to get anywhere or any resouces to feed themselves is just what CONCENTRATION CAMPS do. You have a mentality that would allow a society to starve a person because they either didn't agree with a law instated by the state for financial reasons or because they got caught in a prima-facae circumstance and chose a lesser of two evils even though it rendered them "criminals"?

        I knew a man that was thrown in jail because he was drinking beer while fixing his car (there happened to be a contest going where the precinct with most convictions got new cars) He got in the car with the hood still up (sure he was going a long way with the hood up) and didn't move it a hair. He started it to check the repairs he was making - and was arrested, LEGALLY - but JUSTLY? Not even. Yet you suggest that he and others like himself should be starved or slaved? I say they should be able to sue the f*** out of the Gov for such abuse of their freedoms.

        The example of someone over the legal limit of alcohol driving the person to the emergency room to save her life and got incarcerated for it was also a true example. In a system which valued JUSTICE over SLAVERY -- the prima facae circumstances would not have rendered him a criminal for attempting to save this person's life. Absolute law renders many criminals when there is no real justification for doing so other than saving time and money on courts and juries and the need (or privilege) of Judges with the scruples to understand that human situations don't always allow for compete "letter of the law" actions.

        Well, look at the OTHER side! If the law were fairer, some gy wouldn't grab her chest! A car driven by a drunk kills JUST as well!!!!!
        If laws were fairer guys wouldn't grab women? On what planet did you collect that piece of wisdom? If laws were fairer - a guy wouldn't go to jail for decking this type of animal....but the animals will still prowl no matter what the laws.

        Now look at the other side of THIS one. Do you know how many vindictive people there are out there who bear false witness against someone and are successful in having them jailed, though innocent? Let's kill those criminals. They are in jail and they are absolute pond scum.


        I hope none of you who feel that it is right to enslave or torture never find yourselves on the wrong end of a really bad situation -- that's all it takes these days to get thrown in jail. It's not much different from the fact that a criminal breaking into your home can sue you in many states if you hurt them while they are committing the crime against you.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Now look at the other side of THIS one. Do you know how many vindictive people there are out there who bear false witness against someone and are successful in having them jailed, though innocent?
          Heck yeah! I mentioned that on this forum, even RECENTLY in the off topic section. Maybe if prison were worse, and laws were enforced, they wouldn't think of doing something that, though it breaks many laws in content, even the MEDIA is PERJURY, a FELONY!!!!! Granted, IT may be a minor felony, but it often leads to far more.

          I hope none of you who feel that it is right to enslave or torture never find yourselves on the wrong end of a really bad situation -- that's all it takes these days to get thrown in jail. It's not much different from the fact that a criminal breaking into your home can sue you in many states if you hurt them while they are committing the crime against you.
          HEY, THEY enslave and torture! I HAVE been subject to beatings, etc... when we were minors. One time three BIG kids pushed me against a fence(I was much smaller), which could have broken my back, to get 50 cents. One time 3 OTHER kids worked together to bash my head into a locker. Maybe a half dozen have commited some sort of perjury against me. I have had perhaps 4 thefts(One book(in COLLEGE! The guy stole my book to sell it back to the book store!), one home burglary(I was gone for 3 hours and mine was one of no less than 11 apartments that were broken into!), and 3 financial crimes). Apparently, TWO people tried to steal my identity. That home burglary took me many HOURS over perhaps 4 days to settle, and they stole about $4000 in cash, credit, securities, and appliances(They even stole a betamax JUST after the market basically disappeared). The financial crimes cost me perhaps $15,000! One of the acts of perjury probably cost me about $160,000. I almost lost work because of 4 other acts of perjury(3 separate events).

          The MINOR crimes were not considered crimes, since they were minors!

          The book was recovered, BY ME(I managed to prove it WASN'T his book and WAS mine, WHILE he tried to sell it), and I don't think the book store did anything to the jerk that stole it.

          I gave the LAPD EVIDENCE about the home burglary and they IGNORED it! The case was marked "open but inactive". That means "We may still catch/prosecute the guys, but we aren't looking for them"!

          One Financial crime was investigated by the FBI(National securities fraud, so it was an FBI case), and they told me the guy would NEVER be able to pay it back! I got 0.05 on the dollar.

          Another Financial crime was investigated by the FBI(national bank fraud), and they paid me about 0.30 on the dollar.

          Another Financial crime was a type of perjury, and the guy became the executive vice president of business for a major ISP. He committed a LOT of perjury.

          The $160,000+ is lost FOREVER, but I at least stopped the drain.

          The 4 acts of perjury were revealed, so I don't have to deal with THAT anymore.

          I WISH I weren't affected!

          Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          The example of someone over the legal limit of alcohol driving the person to the emergency room to save her life and got incarcerated for it was also a true example. In a system which valued JUSTICE over SLAVERY -- the prima facae circumstances would not have rendered him a criminal for attempting to save this person's life. Absolute law renders many criminals when there is no real justification for doing so other than saving time and money on courts and juries and the need (or privilege) of Judges with the scruples to understand that human situations don't always allow for compete "letter of the law" actions.
          We are talking about America here, right? Was 911 not available from his cell phone? You actually mean to tell me, a drunk was able to get his wife to the hospital FASTER than 911 could have gotten to the scene? I really find that very, very difficult to believe. If you've ever driven drunk, really drunk, you'll understand what I mean. (And no, it's not a moment I am remotely proud of. I am highly, highly, highly ashamed and I am very lucky that I did not kill someone, including my own children. That episode was my rock bottom and I went into rehab.)

          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


          Now look at the other side of THIS one. Do you know how many vindictive people there are out there who bear false witness against someone and are successful in having them jailed, though innocent? Let's kill those criminals. They are in jail and they are absolute pond scum.
          Every single person sitting in jail didn't do it. They are all innocent. They were all framed. Just ask them. They'll tell you.

          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


          I hope none of you who feel that it is right to enslave or torture never find yourselves on the wrong end of a really bad situation -- that's all it takes these days to get thrown in jail. It's not much different from the fact that a criminal breaking into your home can sue you in many states if you hurt them while they are committing the crime against you.
          I agree that an overhaul of the justice system needs to begin promptly. Prime example: Michael Vick should have never gone to prison. Ever. We value the life of an animal more than a human and that sickens me to the core of my being.
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas
            Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

            Every single person sitting in jail didn't do it. They are all innocent. They were all framed. Just ask them. They'll tell you.
            The problem with sarcasm like that is that some people in prison really are innocent. Most aren't, but some are. But, from reading this thread, it seems some people are perfectly fine with that (as long as they never wind up in that situation themselves, I'd imagine).

            Personally, I can think of at least three instances where entirely innocent people (including children) were wrongly imprisoned, not just for run-of-the-mill criminal offences, but for terrorist attacks in which dozens of people died.

            After the attacks, the police arrested a number of people who seemed like they might have done it, and promptly beat the living shi.t out of them until they got confessions, while, at the same time, "losing" evidence that would have cleared them. The testimony of multiple witnesses that placed them elsewhere at the time of the attacks was dismissed, and the Judge said he was only sorry he couldn't have the executed. Their later attempts to appeal their sentences were rejected on the basis that, if they failed, they would have wasted the Courts time but, if they succeeded, the authorities would have to admit the miscarriage of justice and such an "appaling vista" (actual quote) couldn't be permitted.

            They were kept in prison for over 15 years (where some of them died), even though the real terrorists openly confessed (years earlier), and even the authorities that put them there admitted that 'things didn't add up'. When they finally were released, some of them ended up consumed by alcohol, drugs, PTSD, and numerous mental health problems.

            But, perhaps worst of all, was the fact that, despite being completely cleared of any wrongdoing, one of them was confronted (on television) by a family member of one of their supposed victims, who told them (paraphrasing):

            "You were convicted. That makes you guilty."
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            • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
              Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

              But, perhaps worst of all, was the fact that, despite being completely cleared of any wrongdoing, one of them was confronted (on television) by a family member of one of their supposed victims, who told them (paraphrasing):

              "You were convicted. That makes you guilty."
              Thank you for saying much more eloquently what I was trying to express earlier in the thread -- there seems to be an increasingly harsh attitude among many in the U.S. that the minute anyone is labeled "guilty" by a court somewhere, they automatically become total scum undeserving of any rights or compassion -- never mind whether the laws are stupid, disregarding the severity of the crime they were accused of, whether the courts are giving unequal treatment to different people, or whether they may not actually be guilty in the first place.

              It never ceases to amaze me how many people still regard all "authorities" as being basically infallible...
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  • Profile picture of the author Profit-smart
    I smell politics...

    Edit:
    Not trying to be a dick. I have strong opinions on this subject to, it just seems like exactly the sort of thing that rules in place for.
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  • Profile picture of the author n1c3m4n
    yeah... politic of course. coz of that, i really dislike politician that think of themself only.
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    • Profile picture of the author gareth
      Lets keep politics 100% out of the discussion

      Really we are talking about how people should be treated in prison - this is psychology, economics & social science not politics.

      I say prison labor is OK so long as it is nonconstructive - hence humiliating punishment and there is no organization making money out of it.

      For my army prison example again they would throw stones on the concrete and they would actually place a time limit to gather the stones. If you failed a less pleasant task would be assigned.

      All you are doing is picking up stones but its under pressure and its totally pointless & for hours on end. Thats psychological punishment. Also blaring sun or rain - no difference.

      Nobody wanted to go there.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by gareth View Post

        Lets keep politics 100% out of the discussion

        Really we are talking about how people should be treated in prison - this is psychology, economics & social science not politics.

        I say prison labor is OK so long as it is nonconstructive - hence humiliating punishment and there is no organization making money out of it.

        For my army prison example again they would throw stones on the concrete and they would actually place a time limit to gather the stones. If you failed a less pleasant task would be assigned.

        All you are doing is picking up stones but its under pressure and its totally pointless & for hours on end. Thats psychological punishment. Also blaring sun or rain - no difference.
        THAT is the idea of perfect work, though others are paying for nothng, so it hurts BOTH!

        Nobody wanted to go there.
        EXACTLY! THAT'S THE POINT!

        As for politics, I don't think it has come in yet. As for the idea of "PC", they are even , on the news, blaming that for the Christmas incident.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author mwashington
    I have read through all the threads on this subject and can see liberal views and conservative views and radical views. Basically we do have a problem with the time fitting the crime. We also have a problem with paying the price for your crime. If a person says put a person in prison and say he is to serve his time for the crime is of course not real. Being in prison and serving your time does not mean the person is free of the crime. He has a hard time getting a job, finding a place to live and many other discriminating circumstances even though he did pay his debt to society as some might say. I think there are jobs that certain individuals should not have due to the crime committed. However, there are individuals that are injustly treated because of systems being mixed up through mishandling of information. So what is the answer to all the scenarios present in these post I don't have the slightest idea. But I do think we as a country are doing the best we can to make things right with a topic that is not an exact science by any means. Also there is no possible way that politics can be left out of the topic considering the law itself had to made through a political process of judges and jury. Is there a better way of doing things I don't know. Is there a better system I don't know. Is there injustices done by the system. Of course, there is and that is why we should all be aware of what is happening and become good sound citizens in helping all find the best solutions. This debate in this forum is a healthy one and has been extremely interesting to read. At a young age of 18 I thought I had all the answers to every question. Now after having gone to college got a degree and beyond I still have all the answers. I still have all the questions. That has not changed. The only problem now is I have trouble fitting the right answer to the right questions. The questions are not as simple as I thought they were. I appreciate the discussion of trying to make things fit perfectly even though we live in an imperfect world. I hope in some way this fits the subject. If not please excuse my simple ignorance of the topic.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by mwashington View Post

      He has a hard time getting a job, finding a place to live and many other discriminating circumstances even though he did pay his debt to society as some might say.
      But they HAVEN'T paid their debt by ANY stretch of the imagination. They weren't even TRULY in prison! So WHAT did they pay? If they say kill a daughter I loved, stole $500,000 of my money, went on a rampage and killed 1/3rd the city, ***I*** am supposed to figure that they are now DIFFERENT and should be treated like a friend because they went to a holding cell for 1 yr because the appelate court overturned the appelate court which overturned his original trial which had a corrupt judge, etc...?

      You know, ONE person got off because he claimed he didn't understand his rights, and he had to be retried. NOW, people get set free because of a warning not being given. People have said that the terrorists may get off for the same reason.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    It's almost impossible to read every post in this thread so, if I repeat something already mentioned I apologize in advance.

    1. The idea of pot being illegal is totally absurd. I can eat poison berries all day long until I die and that's legal. I can smoke Maple leaves; no problem. But, if I find a pot plant and do either I get fined. Same with selling the above.

    2. Eliminate the drug dealers and half the prison population is gone. I could go on and on about victimless crimes (such as prostitution), but I won't.

    3. The "luxuries" for prisoners are there to minimize prison violence. And, proven to be effective.

    4. I personally know a kid, 18 years old, who is serving life without parole for a crime which I truly do not believe he committed.
    He was convicted on circumstantial evidence, in a small town hungry for a conviction.
    His attorney presented evidence pointing to someone else but it was not admitted as that person was not on trial.

    5. As for prison labor; There are 2 prisons within 20 miles of where I live.
    The prisons have their own farms. They raise cattle, pigs, and veggies.

    Not sure how much this post applies to the topic. Just wanted to put out there.

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve, nobody is saying there aren't people in prison that the world would just be a better place without, period.

    What the point is, though, is that there are a lot of laws being made that imprison people for actions that shouldn't even constitutionally be illegal........and then they are put into slave labor once they get there. It's not the killers and the rapists who are sold to corporations for slave labor. They are too dangerous to be given work releases. It's the people that are being arrested for things like no insurance and smoking joints that are put into slavery. If this slavery didn't exist, pot would most likely not even be illegal. Just another thing they can make money from illegalizing and until we put a stop to that kind of law making, you are going to have people arrested and jailed for no other reason than to make money for the system.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    We are talking about America here, right? Was 911 not available from his cell phone? You actually mean to tell me, a drunk was able to get his wife to the hospital FASTER than 911 could have gotten to the scene? I really find that very, very difficult to believe.
    All I can say is that if I am ever in an emergency where my life depends on speed - snake bite, anaphylaxis, etc - I damn well hope I don't have to depend on someone stupid enough to sit there and wait for 9/11 to get there. And I've BEEN in anaphylaxis so I really don't give twit if you think that it was wrong for that guy to try to save his wife or not. He was not DRUNK, he was over the legal limit. Being sotted and arrested yourself, I'm sure you know the difference between the two. Point is, the woman would have died if he'd not taken to the road - do you have the simplest understanding of the principal of prima facie law? It is what our Justice system is SUPPOSED to be based upon.

    Oh and by the way -- this happened before most people carried cell phones. I today do not carry a cell phone and don't feel that I should be forced to carry one. The two times I was stranded and had to do some walking, it wouldn't have helped to have one anyway -- you don't get reception EVERYWHERE ya know. To say that because some people have fricken cell phones a man shouldn't be allowed to save his wife after drinking two and a half beers is really absurd to say the least. It is really very smug to think you know better what a person should have done than the person in the situation. Just because when you drink and get behind a wheel you are totally sotted, doesn't mean that everyone over legal limits is drunk. Did you know if you have a CDL - even if you are not driving a work vehicle your legal limit is .04? You think that a 200 lb man is drunk at .04? LMAO. Okay. I guess your halo doesn't need any more shinning - it's glowing just fine there.



    Maybe there are more guilty than innocent in prison -- that doesn't remove the fact that many in prison are there for either not being able to get their right to prima facie judgment -- or are there for breaking laws which are in no way in accordance to the constitution either.

    Should the system be overhauled - oh yeah....I've been in the groups who have been fighting this crap now for 20 years. I wish to hell I'd kept my poli sci major so I could actually have made more of a difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      All I can say is that if I am ever in an emergency where my life depends on speed - snake bite, anaphylaxis, etc - I damn well hope I don't have to depend on someone stupid enough to sit there and wait for 9/11 to get there. And I've BEEN in anaphylaxis so I really don't give twit if you think that it was wrong for that guy to try to save his wife or not. He was not DRUNK, he was over the legal limit. Being sotted and arrested yourself, I'm sure you know the difference between the two. Point is, the woman would have died if he'd not taken to the road - do you have the simplest understanding of the principal of prima facie law? It is what our Justice system is SUPPOSED to be based upon.
      Not sure where you got that I was "sotted and arrested myself".

      I've never been arrested for anything. I drove drunk, stupidly, stupidly, stupidly. It was a block away, but it was still wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And I was stupid. Beyond stupid. Completely lacking any intelligence at that point. I was very lucky I did not get caught. I was even luckier that I didn't kill someone.

      I'm not sure that I am convinced that she would have died if not taken to a hospital by a guy who was legally drunk. I can't say that for certain. Neither can you. It's just very difficult for me to believe that someone whose sense are impaired could get her to the hospital quicker than 911 could get to her. That's just something I find hard to believe. Evidently, you don't.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


      Oh and by the way -- this happened before most people carried cell phones. I today do not carry a cell phone and don't feel that I should be forced to carry one. The two times I was stranded and had to do some walking, it wouldn't have helped to have one anyway -- you don't get reception EVERYWHERE ya know.
      Because 911 emergency system didn't exist, or even function, prior to cell phones. You're making some serious jumps here. One doesn't have to have a cell phone in order to utilize 911 emergency services. They did decades before cell phones.
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


      To say that because some people have fricken cell phones a man shouldn't be allowed to save his wife after drinking two and a half beers is really absurd to say the least. It is really very smug to think you know better what a person should have done than the person in the situation. Just because when you drink and get behind a wheel you are totally sotted, doesn't mean that everyone over legal limits is drunk. Did you know if you have a CDL - even if you are not driving a work vehicle your legal limit is .04? You think that a 200 lb man is drunk at .04? LMAO. Okay. I guess your halo doesn't need any more shinning - it's glowing just fine there.
      Woah, calm down. Just because I disagree with your stance, it doesn't require you to be hateful. I mean, even though Obama is president of my country, I still think (as of right now), I have the freedom to disagree with you.

      And yes, I know that CDL's require a different standard of law regardless if operating a CDL required vehicle. But, that just makes sense.


      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Maybe there are more guilty than innocent in prison -- that doesn't remove the fact that many in prison are there for either not being able to get their right to prima facie judgment -- or are there for breaking laws which are in no way in accordance to the constitution either.
      "Many"? I'm sure there are SOME. I don't agree that there are MANY.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Should the system be overhauled - oh yeah....I've been in the groups who have been fighting this crap now for 20 years. I wish to h*** I'd kept my poli sci major so I could actually have made more of a difference.
      It doesn't require a degree to make a difference.

      Unfortunately, however, it does seem to require a whole lot of money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    we should reinstate public beatings. save on prisons, crime will probably go down. make it a pay per view event on cable.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      we should reinstate public beatings. save on prisons, crime will probably go down. make it a pay per view event on cable.
      It would be nice to see people who advocate violence towards others be the first to receive said violence.

      Troll.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

        It would be nice to see people who advocate violence towards others be the first to receive said violence.

        Troll.
        Maybe we could go with that line of thought if i get caught commiting a crime.
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

          Maybe we could go with that line of thought if i get caught commiting a crime.
          I was just getting ready to say the same thing.

          Remember that kid, Michael Fay, that got caned over in Singapore for theft and vandalism?

          Bet he won't do that again. (Seems he was arrested for pot, however.)
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        • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
          Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

          Maybe we could go with that line of thought if i get caught commiting a crime.
          Violence against others is a crime.
          Counseling others to commit violence against someone is counseling
          the commission of a crime, which is a crime. Disguising it as advocating
          a deterrent does not take away from the fact that violence would be
          committed against a confined and restrained human. Such cowardice
          (torture) never deters crime, it merely encourages a police state.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
            Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

            Violence against others is a crime.
            Counseling others to commit violence against someone is counseling
            the commission of a crime, which is a crime. Disguising it as advocating
            a deterrent does not take away from the fact that violence would be
            committed against a confined and restrained human. Such cowardice
            (torture) never deters crime, it merely encourages a police state.
            When i get arrested for this you'll have a point. Until then you're pulling at strings.

            The only reason capital punishment isnt as effective as it could be is because it takes too long. It is an average of 12 years from sentencing to execution for capital crimes. By the time someone is executed for their crime, people have forgotten what the crime was. There should be a 6 month limit on appeals, then after that...done deal.

            I dont really care about the 'rights' of prisoners, any more than they cared about the the rights of the people they commited their crimes against. If criminals are so worried about there rights..here's a tip to pass along: Dont commit crimes.
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            • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
              Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

              I dont really care about the 'rights' of prisoners, any more than they cared about the the rights of the people they commited their crimes against.
              As your sentence illustrates, ignoring the rights of others results in your own rights being ignored. Valuing human rights is always 100% reciprocal. The value you place on the rights of others is the exact value of your rights.

              In the words of one of the greatest Americans -

              "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

                As your sentence illustrates, ignoring the rights of others results in your own rights being ignored. Valuing human rights is always 100% reciprocal. The value you place on the rights of others is the exact value of your rights.

                In the words of one of the greatest Americans -

                "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine
                The words of Thomas Paine were meant for law abiding citizens of the country, not child molestors, murderers, rapists. While they can easily be adjusted to fit this particular context, it is not how the words were meant. Once you essentially attack society through crime...you are no longer a part of society.Taking away someones inherent god given right to life should be met with a like forfieture of the criminals rights.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      we should reinstate public beatings. save on prisons, crime will probably go down. make it a pay per view event on cable.
      Why not move to Iran? They have public executions. Grab your popcorn.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    What a very interesting load of opinions, faction and codswallop.

    I have just been through what were probably the very worst days of my life. My eyesight is disappearing rapidly, my head aches became so bad that in sheer desperation I shaved my head, for the week before Christmas and up to yesterday I had no food.

    When I thought about the situation I was in it did occur to me that, like many pensioners, I would actually be better off inside. I would have been fed, I would almost certainly have been given the operation I need to try to recover my sight and I would not have been treated half as badly as I am being treated by my bank.

    For a small crime I could have had a measure of benevolence and comfort.

    For being stupid enough to be ill and not be able to make loan repayments, I am fair game tothe bank who are charging me the equivalent of 1245%pa interest on a small loan so that I will never be able to be free of them.

    I think I should have chosen prison against being stubbornly law abiding.

    Put me in jail and let me work - I, for one, would be much better off.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Five minutes? Which nation is that, then?

    It can take five minutes just to get out of the hospital grounds.

    Even if the ambulance could travel at a constant speed of 60mph, this only gives a rescue area of a 5 mile radius. Allowing for acceleration (and ambulances are not noted for that) you can probably lose a mile of that radius. Is there a hospital every 10 miles?

    Even in my small town it can take five minutes to simply drive across from one side to the other. Like many small towns, it is surrounded by countryside which is where the majority of accidents happen - (refer to Murphy's law).

    The effect of adrenaline on a person who is slightly innebriated will probably (not always) counteract the effects of a mild intoxication during the emergency.

    If you have ever been in the situation you will know that you do not have the benefit of hind sight and high ideals - you have a gut wrenching emergency that will focus your mind and lead you to the correct (even if illegal) course of action. To feel shame afterwards is self indulgence. Action was taken and the desired result was obtained. I would hate to think of the shame and guilt of anybody who did not act on the adrenalin induced impulse but acted reasonably, legally and against the natural instinct and watched a victim bleed to death.

    Incidentally, as many ambulances crash as innebriated drivers performing a similar duty.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    From the Federal Bureau of Prisons website...

    "The Federal Bureau of Prisons protects society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens"

    Can any of you "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentalities spell R-E-H-A-B-I-L-I-T-A-T-E?

    LACK of education is the root of a LOT of problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
      Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

      From the Federal Bureau of Prisons website...

      "The Federal Bureau of Prisons protects society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens"

      Can any of you "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentalities spell R-E-H-A-B-I-L-I-T-A-T-E?

      LACK of education is the root of a LOT of problems.
      There are some offenders, some crimes that one CANNOT be rehabilitated from. Child molesters are one of them.

      Recidivism is high. Child molesters are a specific breed, a sickness, a perversion that can't be cured. Can it be overcome? With a lot of prayer, yes.

      My opinion? One offense of child molestation and you don't come back to society, ever.

      You ruin a person's life, you exchange it for yours.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
        @digidoodles

        Agreed.
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    • Profile picture of the author gareth
      Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

      From the Federal Bureau of Prisons website...

      "The Federal Bureau of Prisons protects society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens"

      Can any of you "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentalities spell R-E-H-A-B-I-L-I-T-A-T-E?

      LACK of education is the root of a LOT of problems.
      Dude when I was a kid I nearly got murdered by a child molester - I don't want to rehabilitate that person.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
        Originally Posted by gareth View Post

        Dude when I was a kid I nearly got murdered by a child molester - I don't want to rehabilitate that person.
        I was aware of that Gareth. See my post above to digidoodle(?)

        Crimes such as child molestation should rate right up there with capital murder...along with the option of capital punishment...IMHO.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

          I was aware of that Gareth. See my post above to digidoodle(?)

          Crimes such as child molestation should rate right up there with capital murder...along with the option of capital punishment...IMHO.

          As much as what I have written might sound differently I am with you on that, too. I'm all for making crimes that actually do real hurt to others pretty miserable in consequent. After the time I spent working in a crisis center, I can tell you that it's almost NEVER that one of these perverts can be rehabed. There is something wrong with them and they need to be stopped. If they were dogs, we'd shoot them and just make sure nobody else would get hurt.

          it's just all the petty BS laws we have I hate to see people tortured for - even being in jail period is a wrong that needs to be righted for some of our crimes. One is being fought now - the pot laws. They were wrongfully and unconstitutionally instated and too many are having their lives ruined by them.

          You torture someone on the outside though, God help you on the inside as far as I can see.

          Art - your treatment isn't a symptom of what's wrong with prison, it a symptom of what's wrong with society as a whole. It's the same way here in the US. If you are an illegal and you cause trouble and get caught, you might live better than you would have if you had never been a criminal -- but if you are a law abiding citizen who has payed taxes all your life and is just down on their luck, sick or rendered homeless, your own people will spit on you, call you names, and let you starve. You can surely see from this thread how judgmental and self-righteous they have become. Here if you are broke you are dirt and for that alone they think you deserve to be treated like an animal. Many who are found sleeping in the street are thrown in prison rather than helped. Our people worship money - period. That alone is your only salvation in the US now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

      From the Federal Bureau of Prisons website...

      "The Federal Bureau of Prisons protects society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens"

      Can any of you "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentalities spell R-E-H-A-B-I-L-I-T-A-T-E?

      LACK of education is the root of a LOT of problems.
      Our own legal system doesn't even believe that garbage.

      Look at sex offenders in this country. Once they are out of prison and off parole, we dont track murderers, we dont track robbers, white collar criminals or any kind of criminal...except sex offenders.

      Why? because you can't rehabilitate a sex offender. They are wired wrong and always will be. Even our own government and legal system recognizes this thats why you cant have sex offenders even living around schools and they much register their address where ever they go. If we truly believe rehab works, we wouldnt be tracking them.

      2/3 of prisoners will ultimately re-offend..why? Not because of education...they got free education in prison. Because they are not mentally stable or socially/psychologically as developed as the rest of society. they can't be fixed. why should everyone else have to pay for nature or their parents' inadequacies when the criminal was born.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with a prisoner working off their debt to society, and if their crime is bad enough to be removed permanently from society with the death penalty. That is the only fair thing for the rest of society. We shouldn't have to support them and they can't be released back into the population without endangering others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lesboy
    It would seem that for many the prospect of a spell in prison is no longer a deterrent.

    Here in the UK it has several times been reported that former prisoners have been breaking back into prison because incarceration is a more comfortable way of life.

    I can believe it. Such is the influence now of the liberal left there is little for offenders to fear. In fact very often the victims of crime are treated with more disdain by the judiciary than the perpetrators.

    Yes there certainly is a place for liberal thought, for checks and balances, the problem being that at the moment there is no balance. We've veered from one direction to another without bothering to stop in the middle.

    Society has to be protected, criminals have to be detered to the extent that they think twice before commiting further crimes.

    I'm not particularly right wing, in fact my contempt for politicians covers all parties but I do think it's high time someone stepped forward with enough strength to tackle the sociatal problems we face.

    This absurd notion you can please all of the people all of the time will not wash and in the end will lead to anarchy. Political correctness has a lot to answer for.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Yeh, liberals like criminals. Blame it on liberals. In fact, it's Obama's fault right?

      Plus, how does political correctness have anything to do with this?


      Originally Posted by Lesboy View Post

      Such is the influence now of the liberal left there is little for offenders to fear. In fact very often the victims of crime are treated with more disdain by the judiciary than the perpetrators.

      Yes there certainly is a place for liberal thought, for checks and balances, the problem being that at the moment there is no balance. We've veered from one direction to another without bothering to stop in the middle.

      Society has to be protected, criminals have to be detered to the extent that they think twice before commiting further crimes.

      I'm not particularly right wing, in fact my contempt for politicians covers all parties but I do think it's high time someone stepped forward with enough strength to tackle the sociatal problems we face.

      This absurd notion you can please all of the people all of the time will not wash and in the end will lead to anarchy. Political correctness has a lot to answer for.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Hi, Tim,

    Political correctness has EVERYTHING to do with this - especially in the UK where it has become the major religion.

    A black prisoner can refuse to work on the basis of racial prejudice or religious belief. His refusal will be accepted and there will be no penalties against him because that would reflect upon his human rights and also show a degree of prejudice.

    It is possible for a white man in the UK to be accused of racial prejudice but he, unlike every other sort of criminal, has to prove that the accusation is false. Why? Because, according to the proponents of PC, it is 'not nice or acceptable' to say anything that might, in any way shape or form, offend the sensibilities of anybody who is not white. It is NOT possible to accuse a black man in the UK of racial prejudice. The law of precedent has already established that it is simply not possible for a black man to be racially prejudiced. (That would be an interesting opinion in Kenya!).

    Criminals being released into the community are able to make charges against anybody who refers to their past history in such a way that it might interfere with their 'human rights'. The fact that the human rights of everybody in their vicinity (the right to know the nature of a person newly introduced into the community) are being trampled on doesn't count.

    As Lesboy has hinted, the UK is becoming a sinkhole for all sorts of criminal elements from all over the world because of the open door policy to immigration and the continental (especially French) policy of ignoring the rules relating to illegal immigrants (return them to their port of origin) and allowing them to proceed to UK where they are allowed to 'leak' into society.

    As Lesboy says, the system of checks and balances has been dismantled and the only people with anything to fear are those who were actually born in the country - everybody else has 'human rights'.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Originally Posted by sgtwhite View Post

    Art;

    If someone lives in a small town or out in a rural area, I agree with you; however,
    In most larger cities in America, ambulance assistance is dispatched from fire /police depts. and not from hosiptals.


    With freeways to travel to their destination, the arrival time is cut considerably;
    Obviously we had two different environments in mind.

    If I am snake bit by a Black Momba, feel free to throw me in the back of your
    land rover, and break all the speed limits, if any, and save my arse. Please!

    Sarge

    P.S. If my wife was that close to delivering our child, I would't be sitting around in
    my jockey shorts getting **** faced. Dah! I'd have a good plan in place.
    Yeah everyone knows that statistics save lives.
    I would be dead if my father waited for ambulances because he read statistics - during anaphylaxis sometimes you only have 10 minutes from the time you know you're reacting to the time it's too late.

    I know a few people who have died from this shock because people weren't smart enough to get them in the car and going in time. I guess they were as smart as anyone else who can quote statistics though.

    I was lucky - we lived in a small town in which the cops actually cared about the well being of their people. When my dad was first "caught" speeding to the hospital at 90 miles an hour and didn't stop for them when they flashed the lights - they didn't arrest him when he pulled into the emergency room. Whenever they saw him hitting metal after that they would fall in front of him and escort him there - and my life depended on their caring help many a time.

    And - if every person in prison was there because they were taking the rights of others or endangering others, I might feel differently, but while there are so MANY in prison due to violations of the myriads of newer laws of which volation doesn't hurt anyone but the offender himself (remember the nanny state we're becoming?) I can't go along with anything but just and humane treatment of prisoners. There aren't too many of us that are free from law violation whether we want to think so or not. Go through the list of them and you might be VERY surprised to find yourself an offender without even knowing you were violating laws. That is a problem that should be being addressed by the people of this country.

    I have to say I am not impressed with people who are so freakin' judgmental as many I see here. Where the hell do you all come off thinking you are so far above everyone else? I remember when the economy started to tank too and now a LOT of people who thought anyone having financial problems were either bums or drug/alcohol addicts...........but that was before they got slapped real hard themselves.

    Frankly - I wouldn't mind seeing any one of those who cast such harsh judgment against others having to eat some of their own judgment some time. I bet it won't be as palatable as you think it is from the position of your golden thrones.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Oh - and by the way - the last time I went into shock from an allergy I had to drive myself in because I knew no ambulance could get there in time. I called the hospital and told them there was an anaphylatic shock on the way in - gave them my license plate and car make and model and headed out........so the ambulance could meet me on the way there with the medicine when I couldn't drive further.
    Eat your stats.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim Gillum
    I started in the cop business in1968........I have heard all the stories about people being arrested for doing nothing.......

    Since we were not there do we know all the facts?....I wonder.....probably not....
    I once went to a hearing to suppress the eyewitness testimony....my partner and I watched two burgulars working on a coin box with a tire iron......the judge didn't fall for the ploy...

    One month I worked traffic and wrote 243 tickets....6 went to court....I lost one case.....
    How many of those folks told their friends that they got a ticket for doing nothing?

    Then there is the "drug" argument, "Don't hurt nobody".....but some of the drug dealers had guns....hmmmm....

    We don't have enough drunk drivers so let's legalize some soft drugs to see if we can get some more....

    And the innocent inmates........there are an untold number of systems in Florida to try to assure that innocent people do not go to jail or stay in jail......
    Out of the thousands of convictions, every once in a while one is reversed.

    I spent 8 years as the elected sheriff of a Florida county.....I worked the streets with my deputies.....(had a large staff to do paper work)...mostly major crimes, drug raids and missing children......My last year in office we made about 10,000 arrests....

    Coupled with my time as a street cop and working major crimes as a sheriff, you can not even imagine the things I have seen......

    Victims.......many victims, families destroyed....the victim's family and in most cases the suspects families as well......

    During my 8 years we had 4 serial killers working in my county.(we cleared those cases)...by now I think they have all been executed.

    Until you have seen it...think hard about the "nasty" jails. Florida has laws that govern the operation of jails to try to keep them humane.

    I ran three of them at the same time. Cable TV was provided free by the cable company by county agreement for their franchise. TV was one of the controls to keep the inmates in check.

    Inmates could not work for a private company....only a government agency.....
    My inmates (low level offenders) picked up trash along the road side. They mowed the grass on the jail property and some worked on the jail farm where we grew vegetables for the jail.

    Statistics are a wonderful thing...and are very flexible........

    Fairy-tails should be reserved for kids........

    People in jail do not commit crimes against people outside of jail.....
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      Child molesters are a specific breed, a sickness, a perversion that can't be cured. Can it be overcome? With a lot of prayer, yes.
      Prayer is the answer to child molestation? :confused:

      Originally Posted by sgtwhite View Post

      As most of you know, I spent 28 years in law Enforcement. I lost count how many times I gave an escort to someone driving during an emergency; In addition, I never arrested anyone without probable cause; That is the law ya know.

      Some on this thread seem to be PHOBIC about any government employee or authority figure. Maybe the next time your in danger you should call a crack dealer instead of a cop. Dah!
      Well, as many of you don't know (but Sarge does), I was a government employee for a long time too. In that time, I encountered everything from run-of-the-mill street thugs to people dedicated to the complete destruction of my country (and, for the matter, the complete destruction of me too! )

      One of the things my experiences taught me was that the whole 'lock-em-all-up-and-throw-away-the-key' mentality is completely at variance with the concept of a civilised society: While most people in prison deserve to be there, wrongful imprisonment still happens, and occurs more often than anyone would care to admit. It destroys lives (not just the supposed-criminals but their families too). It discredits the justice system and damages the authority of the police. And, at least in the case of Ireland (and, as a consequence, the U.K. too), it has led to destructive rioting, attacks on police and military personnel, increased public support for subversive groups, and incredible (and I do mean incredible) tension on an international level.

      (One of the reasons Ireland permanently abolished the death penalty (even in times of war) is (IMO) that all people are fallible. As a consequence, the systems created by people are also fallible, which included the justice system. That's the reason innocent people can sometimes end up in prison. While an innocent person can still be released from prison, it's pretty hard to "release" an innocent man after snapping his neck in a noose, or injecting him with fatal poison).

      Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post

      People in jail do not commit crimes against people outside of jail.....
      I hope that wasn't the basis on which you locked people up as sheriff!
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  • Profile picture of the author Loco.m
    I wouldn't want to do the work these prison jobs are taking, so I don't see it as a bad deal
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  • Profile picture of the author gareth
    Really despite the rises in crime in the last 30 years here in NZ we have a low murder rate compared to most places in the USA.

    I am not sure how you guys handle the murder rate. Socially I mean as it is such a disturbing and anti-social thing.

    Prior to meth there was very little hard drug offending here - they don't know about shake & bake here yet.

    But I believe smoking pot should be illegal and the level of illegality should be based upon the quantity involved.

    So a joint or few would be a fine but an ounce or so a more serious fine and anything above several ounces or a pound a prison sentence.

    I don't know how your drug laws work in the US but that is about how it works here.

    A drug user may (or may not) deserve rehabilitation but not an adult drug dealer IMO.
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    Gareth M Thomas
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  • Profile picture of the author trevor75
    Well it's a double edged sword isn't it. Yes they are cheap labor, but I think the reason the state sends these criminals to work is to keep their minds occupied and to maybe learn a skill for when they are released. If they are working, then they probably won't fight, and try to kill each other as much. By the way Gareth..love your picture! ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author es5
    Originally Posted by gareth View Post

    Many complain that prison labor is wrong because it takes jobs.

    China has hundreds of thousands in forced labor. Maybe as many as 1 million but possibly much less.

    Heres the problem, say with this many people in forced labor for crimes such as drug's or disagreeing with the corrupt government - clearly there is an economic advantage being derived from the cheap labor.

    Thus it is then economically advantageous to have people detained into forced labor.

    Then we can conclude that the state is being rewarded economically for the fact that these people committed various crimes or non-crimes.

    So if more people commit crime more will be detained and the state derives further economic benefit.

    For this reason it is dysfunctional.
    Well, I think its wrong cause slavery has been outbanned in most western countries. On one side, prisoners should be rehabilitated and taught to work, but on the other hand, what can you expect from an animal that has been disrespected in prison? When he gets out, its society that pays.
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  • Profile picture of the author whiteeth
    For me it just right that they force to labor the prison. Because the prison need food, clothes, medicine.. etc. I think it's unfair if they will get it free after the crime that they have done.
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