How the H$LL do you get fired on your day off?

Killer Joe

14 years ago

It's sounds like there will be an attorney in your future...

KJ

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klandino

14 years ago

I was thinking the same thing, but want to see how it plays out.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by klandino

So just wanted to see if anyone has ever been fired on their day off? Saturday night I get a call from work and they say I need to call them asap. I work in a restaurant and Valentine's Day was the next day. So when I wake up in the morning I go by work to see what they wanted and the owner said I have to work tonight. Well it is my scheduled day off and I had plans with my family. Well his restaurant sank on Saturday night and he told me I have to work and I told him no because I already have plans with my family. I have been there for three years and do management work for minimum wage and am a server. I do this gladly for them because they are supposedly my friends. Well to make a long story short I am being the scape goat for him having a bad night and now wants to fire me or change my schedule to day time (which I can't do because my wife works during the day and we have three kids youngest being 19 months) and knows that I can't work it so I would have to quit resulting in not being able to get unemployment because I would technically quiting resulting in no unemployment.

Anyways just wanted to see if any one else has been fired on their day off?

Out of curiousity, what restaurant in LV?

I'm guessing you aren't a member of the Culinary Union?

In NV, he isn't going to win a case for being fired.

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klandino

14 years ago

It is in Summerlin and not part of the union unfortunately. The problem is he is just going to try and make it so I no call no show which in effect is just like me quiting.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by klandino

It is in Summerlin and not part of the union unfortunately. The problem is he is just going to try and make it so I no call no show which in effect is just like me quiting.

In NV, you can be fired for just about any reason. And, when you filled out an application, it likely said something like "This job can be ended at any time".

About the only thing you can do is to move on and try to find another job, which isn't easy in LV right now.

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

In NV, you can be fired for just about any reason. And, when you filled out an application, it likely said something like "This job can be ended at any time".

About the only thing you can do is to move on and try to find another job, which isn't easy in LV right now.

That's how it is in Virginia too, and ironically they like to call it a "Right To Work" state, when in fact it doesn't give anyone the right to work, but it gives employers the right to fire for any and no reason at all.

It's also a union busting technique.

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

In NV, you can be fired for just about any reason.

Originally Posted by KimW

That's how it is in Virginia too...

Are there no laws against unfair dismissals?

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Are there no laws against unfair dismissals?

Yes, but as Valerie said, its very hard to prove.
Its hard to prove race,creed,color,or sex stopped you from being hired and/or got you fired.

Thats basically what our unfair dismissal laws are based on.

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Isn't is like that everywhere? Every application I've seen has always said in fine print, that the employer or employee can terminate employment at any time for any or no reason and you have to sign it.

Over here, if you added a clause to an employment contract saying your employee can be fired for any reason at all, it would immediately be declared void (that clause; not the entire contract) in the case of any dispute. You'll be dismissed for obvious stuff like redundancy, misconduct, theft, etc. but you can't be fired (or pressured into resigning) if your employer is just having a bad day and decides to take it out on you.

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Thomas, if it's because of discrimination, yes. But then you'd have to prove discrimination which isn't always easy. It would be employers word vs. former employees word. Those suits are hard to win.

Originally Posted by KimW

Yes, but as Valerie said, its very hard to prove.
Its hard to prove race,creed,color,or sex stopped you from being hired and/or got you fired. Thats basically what our unfair dismissal laws are based on.

Obviously, you can't know all the facts from a single forum post, and I'm speaking from the perspective of someone living where laws are seemingly very different but, having encountered broadly-similar problems in the past as both an employer and an employee, it sounds very much like klandino is being/about to be unfairly dismissed or, more likely, is being lined up for constructive dismissal.

If that happened here, and the employer and employee couldn't come to a mutually-agreeable solution, it wouldn't go to Court; instead, the matter would be sent to an Employment Appeals Tribunal, which adjudicates on disputes over employment rights, who will determine if the dismissal was carried out in a fair and lawful way. If it wasn't, the employee is usually awarded substantial damages. On the face of it, if everything klandino says in his post is completely true, his employer would lose.

Instantly.

Originally Posted by klandino

I would have to quit resulting in not being able to get unemployment because I would technically quiting resulting in no unemployment

Is there no mandatory unemployment insurance? Again, speaking as someone living where laws are obviously very different, a portion of the income tax every employee has deducted from their wages pays for (IIRC) about 12 months of "Jobseeker's benefit", which is basically payment to cover your basic living expenses while you seek alternative employment. You can opt to pay for additional cover but everyone gets the minimum, regardless of the reason you became unemployed.

After that time, if you haven't found alternative employment, and wish to continue claiming that benefit, you will be assigned to a work placement programme.

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DanPE

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Over here, if you added a clause to an employment contract saying your employee can be fired for any reason at all, it would immediately be declared void (that clause; not the entire contract) in the case of any dispute. You'll be dismissed for obvious stuff like redundancy, misconduct, theft, etc. but you can't be fired (or pressured into resigning) if your employer is just having a bad day and decides to take it out on you.

Works out to be the same. You can still be dismissed if your employer is having a bad day. It's just that he won't say it's because he was having a bad day, he would say it's because we're "downsizing" or "rightsizing" or whatever.

Originally Posted by Thomas

If that happened here, and the employer and employee couldn't come to a mutually-agreeable solution, it wouldn't go to Court; instead, the matter would be sent to an Employment Appeals Tribunal, which adjudicates on disputes over employment rights, who will determine if the dismissal was carried out in a fair and lawful way. If it wasn't, the employee is usually awarded substantial damages.

Which he would not be able to collect, because they will just keep appealing.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Is there no mandatory unemployment insurance? Again, speaking as someone living where laws are obviously very different, a portion of the income tax every employee has deducted from their wages pays for (IIRC) about 12 months of "Jobseeker's benefit", which is basically payment to cover your basic living expenses while you seek alternative employment. You can opt to pay for additional cover but everyone gets the minimum, regardless of the reason you became unemployed.

Are you eligible for that if you quit?

Originally Posted by Thomas

After that time, if you haven't found alternative employment, and wish to continue claiming that benefit, you will be assigned to a work placement programme.

Which won't work if there are no jobs available.

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DanPE

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Over here, if you added a clause to an employment contract saying your employee can be fired for any reason at all, it would immediately be declared void (that clause; not the entire contract) in the case of any dispute. You'll be dismissed for obvious stuff like redundancy, misconduct, theft, etc. but you can't be fired (or pressured into resigning) if your employer is just having a bad day and decides to take it out on you.

Works out to be the same. You can still be dismissed if your employer is having a bad day. It's just that he won't say it's because he was having a bad day, he would say it's because we're "downsizing" or "rightsizing" or whatever.

Originally Posted by Thomas

If that happened here, and the employer and employee couldn't come to a mutually-agreeable solution, it wouldn't go to Court; instead, the matter would be sent to an Employment Appeals Tribunal, which adjudicates on disputes over employment rights, who will determine if the dismissal was carried out in a fair and lawful way. If it wasn't, the employee is usually awarded substantial damages.

Which he would not be able to collect, because they will just keep appealing.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Is there no mandatory unemployment insurance? Again, speaking as someone living where laws are obviously very different, a portion of the income tax every employee has deducted from their wages pays for (IIRC) about 12 months of "Jobseeker's benefit", which is basically payment to cover your basic living expenses while you seek alternative employment. You can opt to pay for additional cover but everyone gets the minimum, regardless of the reason you became unemployed.

Are you eligible for that if you quit?

Originally Posted by Thomas

After that time, if you haven't found alternative employment, and wish to continue claiming that benefit, you will be assigned to a work placement programme.

Which won't work if there are no jobs available.

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DanPE

Works out to be the same. You can still be dismissed if your employer is having a bad day. It's just that he won't say it's because he was having a bad day, he would say it's because we're "downsizing" or "rightsizing" or whatever.

No, it doesn't, because the employer will have to show there was fair grounds for the dismissal which, in the case of claiming redundancy, would involve explaining the means by which the person involved was selected for dismissal (i.e. why were they, in particular, chosen over anybody else).

Originally Posted by DanPE

Which he would not be able to collect, because they will just keep appealing.

The decision of the Tribunal is final, subject only to appeal in the High Court on a point of law, which, as far as I know, it never has been.

Originally Posted by DanPE

Are you eligible for that if you quit?

Yes.

The reason you became unemployed isn't an issue. The only thing that matters is that you have paid your contributions when you were employed (which, since they are mandatory automatic deductions from your wages, all employees do).

Originally Posted by DanPE

Which won't work if there are no jobs available.

It has been working for decades. There's more to it than simply telling people where the jobs they already have experience or expertise in are. For example, there are options for re-training and re-skilling to move into other fields. There're also options for people who want to start their own business (help producing business plans, seeking finance, etc.). There's lots of other stuff involved too.

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DanPE

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

No, it doesn't, because the employer will have to show there was fair grounds for the dismissal which, in the case of claiming redundancy, would involve explaining the means by which the person involved was selected for dismissal (i.e. why were they, in particular, chosen over anybody else).

Give me a job, any job, and I can come up with a valid reason for dismissal.

Originally Posted by Thomas

The decision of the Tribunal is final, subject only to appeal in the High Court on a point of law, which, as far as I know, it never has been.

It could be though.

Originally Posted by Thomas

The reason you became unemployed isn't an issue. The only thing that matters is that you have paid your contributions when you were employed (which, since they are mandatory automatic deductions from your wages, all employees do).

So what's the rate like? and what will stop anyone from abusing the system?

Originally Posted by Thomas

It has been working for decades. There's more to it than simply telling people where the jobs they already have experience or expertise in are. For example, there are options for re-training and re-skilling to move into other fields. There're also options for people who want to start their own business (help producing business plans, seeking finance, etc.). There's lots of other stuff involved too.

If this worked, there would be no jobless people in your country

so are there?

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DanPE

Give me a job, any job, and I can come up with a valid reason for dismissal.

That's the very attitude that results in employers facing business-wrecking financial penalties. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by DanPE

It could be though.

But won't, since the cost of doing so would far exceed any financial penalty imposed, especially if it ended up in the Supreme Court (which, since you're challenging the State, it most likely would). And, if you lose, you'd have to pay both your own legal costs and theirs too. Besides, every employer's group I know of has long-ago accepted the Tribunal's authority.

Originally Posted by DanPE

So what's the rate like? and what will stop anyone from abusing the system?

Since I don't claim it, I don't know what the rates are. But you won't get rich from it, if that's what you're thinking. And I'd imagine it's a hard thing to abuse, as you are entitled to it by virture of becoming unemployed, and it automatically stops once you enter new employment but, apart from the fact it eventually runs out, I'm sure there are safeguards aplenty in place. But, since I don't work for the Department of Social Welfare, I wouldn't know what they are; however, if you like, I'll see if I can find you a phone number for them, and you can interrogate them about it to your heart's content.

Originally Posted by DanPE

If this worked, there would be no jobless people in your country

Hardly, since it's only a strategy for dealing with the long-term unemployed (which the majority of people never become), and doesn't deal with the causes of (either short or long term) unemployment (i.e the State's reaction to your unemployment doesn't prevent you becoming unemployed in the first place).

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DanPE

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Since I don't claim it, I don't know what the rates are. But you won't get rich from it, if that's what you're thinking. And I'd imagine it's a hard thing to abuse, as you are entitled to it by virture of becoming unemployed, and it automatically stops once you enter new employment but, apart from the fact it eventually runs out, I'm sure there are safeguards aplenty in place.

Aha.. it runs out? could you be "unemployed by choice" and be state-supported all your life?

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

That's how it is in Virginia too, and ironically they like to call it a "Right To Work" state

There are two halves to the Virginia employment setup. The half where they can fire you for anything makes them an "At-Will Employment" state. You're thinking of the other half, where they can't require you to join a union and non-competition agreements are much harder to enforce.

In the defence industry, employers always threaten you with NC contracts that basically say you have to go work at McDonald's for three years if you ever leave. But Virginia employment law basically says they can go to hell, and you can work wherever you want.

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There are two halves to the Virginia employment setup. The half where they can fire you for anything makes them an "At-Will Employment" state. You're thinking of the other half, where they can't require you to join a union and non-competition agreements are much harder to enforce.

In the defence industry, employers always threaten you with NC contracts that basically say you have to go work at McDonald's for three years if you ever leave. But Virginia employment law basically says they can go to hell, and you can work wherever you want.

No, I said what I meant, they call it a right to work state when in fact it is not.
But I do understand what your saying.

I was a union steward for almost 10 years when I worked for the USPS.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

That's how it is in Virginia too, and ironically they like to call it a "Right To Work" state, when in fact it doesn't give anyone the right to work, but it gives employers the right to fire for any and no reason at all.

It's also a union busting technique.

same in florida. I have had quite a few jobs since i've been in florida, and i have had interviewers ask me 'why did you change jobs so much', and i tell them straight up that there isnt a company in this state that has any alliegances to me. If they find someone that will work for lower pay, i'll find myself training my replacement right before i'm fired. So therefore i have no problem with leaving a job when i find someone that will pay more.

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Kay King 14 years ago

The company I work part-time for just moved 7 dealers from day shift to swing shift to balance the customer load.

These folks have worked daytime hours for YEARS - but the choice they have is take the new shift or they're out. The decisions weren't seniority based - but were based on those with the lowest job performance evaluations being moved. These are workers who refused to work an extra day during busy times, called in sick a lot, did the minimal work required. Is that legal here? Sure is.

He asked you to work extra - you said no. He needs someone on that shift that is willing to do extra when required. Doesn't matter what the pay scale is - in a job where the business serves the public workers are often required to be flexible during peak periods. It can be frustrating for employees, but it's often reality of the job.

Not saying whether it's right or wrong - but businesses work like that.
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klandino

14 years ago

I know it is really hard but I really need to sit down and look at what I have learned over the years here at the WF and figure out what it is that I am really good at and find a way to make it work! Not for me but for my family. I am definitely not one to live off the Gov. and want to support my family even if it means working at McD's for awhile to keep the family afloat.

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klandino

14 years ago

See the problem is that I am the longest employed employee there and have an awesome work ethic and go way above and beyond for them. I never call in sick and even when they lose a manager I go in and manage for them so they have someone there. I even train there new managers when they come in because I am the only one that truly knows how their business runs. They even call me and ask me how to do certain things that they don't know how to do. So it is just a crappy situation and I am hoping that they are doing this out of hast and not spite.

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Eric Graudins

14 years ago

Originally Posted by klandino

See the problem is that I am the longest employed employee there and have an awesome work ethic and go way above and beyond for them. I never call in sick and even when they lose a manager I go in and manage for them so they have someone there. I even train there new managers when they come in because I am the only one that truly knows how their business runs. They even call me and ask me how to do certain things that they don't know how to do. So it is just a crappy situation and I am hoping that they are doing this out of hast and not spite.

Well, sounds like you are iin an unusually strong position.
From what you've said, I'm guessing that they might call you up at some stage, beg forgiveness, and seek your help with training, etc..

Just be very professional, and tell them that you are now a consultant, and will help them out at 5 times the rate at which they were paying you before.

And stick to your guns about it.

regards,
Eric G.

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Mark Blaze

14 years ago

Originally Posted by klandino

See the problem is that I am the longest employed employee there and have an awesome work ethic and go way above and beyond for them. I never call in sick and even when they lose a manager I go in and manage for them so they have someone there. I even train there new managers when they come in because I am the only one that truly knows how their business runs. They even call me and ask me how to do certain things that they don't know how to do. So it is just a crappy situation and I am hoping that they are doing this out of hast and not spite.

Then surely if you are actually fired and he doesn't come back soon and ask for you back then he is going to realize what a good asset to the business you are?

It seems you have the upper hand but don't even know it yet and nor does your old boss.

What i would do right now is work on a plan that is guaranteed to make you around the same amount of money that you make at your job but online.

Then while you are fired work on it... work on it hard and keep working on it until he calls you back or fires you properly or whatever! You could even just go and eat in the restaurant and take as many people as you can with you everyday just so he is really really busy all the time (don't let him know they are your friends) and thus he has to either re-hire you or he hires others and he will have to train them etc etc!

You just gotta work through this and make the most of it!

Mark Blaze

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Isn't is like that everywhere? Every application I've seen has always said in fine print, that the employer or employee can terminate employment at any time for any or no reason and you have to sign it.

Thomas, if it's because of discrimination, yes. But then you'd have to prove discrimination which isn't always easy. It would be employers word vs. former employees word. Those suits are hard to win.

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vivekg

14 years ago

What Kim has said is right, Its hard to prove in this case. The owner has played it nice, so he does not get into trouble. anyways sorry to hear about your job Klandino.

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Dale_Anthony

14 years ago

A while back I used to work in the Teamsters.

It's the only job I've ever worked at where I saw a supervisor (making $32,000 a year) and an employee (making $60,000 a year) get into a fist fight.

The supervisor lost his job...the Teamster kept his.

I've seen guys load cars onto trains doing 60 mph in the traincar....crash...cause thousands of dollars in damage...and three months later after arbitration get their job back.

Now I strip and wax floors in a hospital (a non union job) and I'm going through the same thing you are.

It doesn't matter how hard you work, how good your attendance record is, how nice and respectful you are to the patients and visitors.

If you don't kiss the supervisors ass and coware down before them, they'll play the exact same games you've described above. And no, the law isn't on your side unless you have absolute proof.

Time we both get a back up plan.

................

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Yeah laws are very different Thomas. Here, in most cases an employer can fire an employee for any or no reason, it's their right, and there's nothing the employee can do about it in almost all cases. (Just like an employee can quit at anytime for any reason) Unless u can prove you were fired cause of your race, gender, age, religion, familial status, etc. you don't have a case. And no employer is gonna admit that so you'd have to have some kind of proof, which is only in very few cases. Just like its illegal to not be hired for the same things, but how can anyone prove they weren't hired cause of their age, race, familial status, gender,whatever? You can't.

OP hope your employer cools off and doesn't fire you. Or maybe there's something better for you out there. (If there's any good jobs left in this economy!)

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HeySal

14 years ago

Of course, the employment laws are stacked for Companies here, Thomas - who else has the money to pay to have laws enacted in their favor?

A contract, though, is a contract. If you sign a contract that gives explicitly the hours you are to work, and they don't stick to their end then fire you for insisting on your contracted hours, they can be sued for breach of contract. You just have to read those contracts very carefully and act on them before the company gets a whif that you are doing so or they will cover their tracks quickly, too.

One company here worked a guy 15 hours a day til he dropped with a coronary -- then called him IN THE HOSPITAL to fire him right after his doctor had told him he needed to stay unstressed. Not sure how that lawsuit ended up but since there was a medical issue (he was actually fired because they drove him to be laid up from work) he might have been able to pull a lawsuit off in his favor.......no guarantee though.
American workers are becoming the new chocolate kid slaves of the Western world. You put up with any damned crap they dish out or you look for a new job. Period.

I don't put up with the crap - you treat me like crap when I'm doing my best for you and you find someone else and you train your OWN personelle, I'm not gonna train em for you.

As far as vivekg - I realize these people are your "friends" but did it ever occur to you when they were using you to train managers then give managers more pay than you that you should have been going elsewhere?

If people were to stand up to the companies like they did in the past, companies would have to act straight. But workers are now in the majority snivelling cowards who will be beaten like dogs before they get the drift that the only reason a company can act in such a fashion and not fold is because the workers eat every bit of crap dished to them. You act like a slave, it should be no surprise to be treated as such.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Where it gets even worse is the trend towards employers trying to say their workers are "independant contractors", so they don't have to pay workman's comp, unemployment, over-time or matching social security.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Where it gets even worse is the trend towards employers trying to say their workers are "independant contractors", so they don't have to pay workman's comp, unemployment, over-time or matching social security.

That ****WAS**** the trend. The IRS has a LOT of rules dictating when they will say *****NO WAY*****! Independent Contractor (Self-Employed) or Employee?

And quite a while ago, M/S tried to hire people as contractors. When the contractors found out about the sweetheart deals the employees were getting, they said "WE WANT THAT!". M/S said "NO WAY!". They were taken to court, and the "contractors" WON! Frankly, outside of this contract, NOBODY kept me for more than 13 months. Not even the place that had me working for 5 years(about 1 year at a time). They were all scared because of the M/S suit, even though I CAN'T be their employee! Anyway, misclassifying a person can cost the company a LOT.

Of course, in the supposed "right to work" states, it seems they could slip out on a technicality. They could avoid some benefits by limiting employment. USUALLY that can't be done unless stated up front, but the RTW states seem to allow it ALL THE TIME. Just fire them before the benefits are required. Of course, people have been sued for that when there was an obvious pattern.

Steve

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

That ****WAS**** the trend. The IRS has a LOT of rules dictating when they will say *****NO WAY*****! Independent Contractor (Self-Employed) or Employee?

Steve

Your need to consistently try to correct people is ****VERY***** annoying. To say *****WAS***** you need to define the length of the trend. Am I speaking of a 25 year time period, a 50 year period or a 5 year period?

Plus, your link did nothing to prove that ****WAS**** or ****WASN'T**** the current trend. I say that by them placing more info on the subject proves my point, not your's. Why have that info if this wasn't a problem?

Stop knit-picking with people.

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Super_Vendor

14 years ago

damnnnn Craig!

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

probably BECAUSE they go tired of ALTERNATING CAPS in interOFFICE emails.

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

probably BECAUSE they go tired of ALTERNATING CAPS in interOFFICE emails.

FuNny!!!! 8-)
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tweetzon

14 years ago

dude if i were you , i would just stick to my freaking computer 24 hours and stay serious on my internet business lol. then u can fuk your boss up before he know

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Sticking to your puter 24 hours makes you fat

Unless you type while walking on a treadmill.

Ok now it's brought up I have wondered: IF seasoned IS capable OF writing A POST without SO many CAPITAL words IN EVERY single POST cause I HAVEN'T seen ONE single POST without SO MANY capital WORDS BY him EVER. It's KIND of LIKE alternating BETWEEN regular and CAPITAL. MAYBE it's a HABIT.

Oh what's the topic? Oh yeah. Well send an update OP on if you got fired or not.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Sticking to your puter 24 hours makes you fat

Unless you type while walking on a treadmill.

Ok now it's brought up I have wondered: IF seasoned IS capable OF writing A POST without SO many CAPITAL words IN EVERY single POST cause I HAVEN'T seen ONE single POST without SO MANY capital WORDS BY him EVER. It's KIND of LIKE alternating BETWEEN regular and CAPITAL. MAYBE it's a HABIT.

Oh what's the topic? Oh yeah. Well send an update OP on if you got fired or not.

OK, IS THAT BETTER? I HIT SHIFT LOCK, AND WON'T BOTHER HITTING THE SHIFT BUTTON, FOR ALPHA CHARACTERS. BTW, STICKING TO YOUR COMPUTER 24 HOURS A DAY MAKES YOU SKINNY. AFTER ALL, HOW CAN YOU EAT? I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND STARVATION THOUGH. 8-(

STEVE

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seasoned

14 years ago

Kurt,

That site was written quite some time ago. I first looked at it a few years ago. I was curious after hearing about the M/S court case, etc... I can tell you the BIGGER companies certainly know about this.

Steve

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Kurt,

That site was written quite some time ago. I first looked at it a few years ago. I was curious after hearing about the M/S court case, etc... I can tell you the BIGGER companies certainly know about this.

Steve

Steve,

That's **NOT** my point.

IN addition to knit-picking, you need to work on context. My original post was about how companies try to take away certain things, and ***NOT*** about the definition of the word "trend".

Now let's play your game and argue over what "bigger" means, instead of focusing on the general theme of this thread, which is how people get screwed by companies.

Not to mention, small business is the number one source of jobs in the US.

And yet again, your point just backs me up...Why are the "bigger" companies aware of this? I say it's because of the TREND over the past 20-30 years for them to try to make employees into independant contractors so they don't have to pay unemployment, matching social security or workman's comp.

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Wish there was something to help with unemployment here.

From what I know, a high unemployment rate, many businesses went out of biz, many others moved countries, some people have been searching a loooooong time for a job and haven't found anything, some people have been actively searching for work for an entire year or more and haven't been hired, some people with college degrees are working at fast food places for near minimum wage cause they couldn't find anything better and finally accepted whatever they could get.

Unemployment runs out, welfare runs out (and the amount is so low to be laughable unless you're Octomom), many people don't even qualify for welfare or other assistance. I know someone who has a stable, good job at a college and has half her family flopping at her house cause they have no jobs or money so her house is jam packed full of layoff, out of business, and mcdonalds wont even hire me victims. Hope things change

Soon!

Dunno much about Ireland but seems the unemployed fare much better there.

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Thomas 14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Dunno much about Ireland but seems the unemployed fare much better there.

Well, I don't want to give the wrong impression: what I was talking about is a form of insurance designed to pay basic living expenses if you become unemployed for whatever reason. It's purpose is to tide you over until you find something else (locally, or nationally, or in another EU State, or further afield, or start your own business...whatever it is). The majority of people do eventually end up doing something else on their own volition and then payments cease. When they take up work again, they resume paying that insurance (or, if they end up working outside Ireland, they can join a voluntary insurance system).

However, a minority don't find something else by the time their payments cease. At that point, the State becomes pretty intrusive: You can continue to receive some forms of payment for living expenses (i.e. you go on the dole) but your skills, experiences, aptitude, etc. will be analysed left, right, and centre and, if it comes down to it, you will be compelled to attend interviews, take up work placements, engage in further education and training, or whatever may be deemed necessary to get you back to economic productivity at some point. In other words, I guess you could say the State becomes Big Parent (as opposed to Big Brother), although hardly with the same motives as an actual parent; at the end of the day, the State wants people to be tax payers, not tax receivers, and the purpose of the system is convert them back (from receivers to payers).
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Dave Patterson

14 years ago

Your explanation was very enlightening Thomas...thanks!

Sounds like a very good system overall.

PS- Do you have a spare room to rent? I've just decided I wanna be Irish.

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

PS- Do you have a spare room to rent? I've just decided I wanna be Irish.

Can you handle the cold? :p If you could move Ireland about 5,000 miles south and get rid of all the leprechauns I might go there too.

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

I've never been called DanPE before

Oops. Apologies; it has been suitably amended!

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

I can see Big Parent trying to get people to interviews or getting skills, but they can't physically force them.

The payments are means-tested, a process which includes personal interviews with applicants (generally in their own home). AFAIK, you must also attend in person to receive your payments and, at that point, will be asked what you have been doing about your situation (so I'd imagine, if it was applicable, you would also be asked, "Tell me why you haven't done what we told you to do regarding X..." in such interviews).

AFAIK, continual non-compliance would result in restrictions on payments, with the absolute end of the scale being the complete assumption of your life by the State (to the point where it pays your rent and gives you enough food to live on and nothing more; except for subjecting you to medical assessment to make sure there isn't actually something mentally wrong with you (although I'd imagine that would be as likely to happen en route to the end point, as it would when you reach it).

I've no idea if anyone has ever reached that ultimate point but, if they have, I'm sure you could count the number of instances on one hand, as most people (not just here; but everywhere) are neither terminally lazy, nor mentally ill!

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Can you handle the cold? :p If you could move Ireland about 5,000 miles south and get rid of all the leprechauns I might go there too.

You're right about Leprechauns. Vile creatures. I mowed down a whole family of them with my car last week. That was fun; I usually shoot them on sight, but seeing them splattered all over my bonnet and windscreen was pretty cool.

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DanPE

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

the complete assumption of your life by the State (to the point where it pays your rent and gives you enough food to live on and nothing more; except for subjecting you to medical assessment to make sure there isn't actually something mentally wrong with you (although I'd imagine that would be as likely to happen en route to the end point, as it would when you reach it).

That would be paradise to any homeless person.

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Thomas 14 years ago

Originally Posted by DanPE

Aha.. it runs out? could you be "unemployed by choice" and be state-supported all your life?

Who choses to be unemployed by choice!? :confused: Anyway, the answer is no. If you seek State-support beyond the period covered by the insurance you pay, then they call the shots, and the entire process from then onwards is designed for the sole purpose of getting you back off it again. As the Borg might say, resistance is futile. (I suppose you could be "unemployed by choice" if you didn't seek any support from the State at all but, in that case, they will want to know how you are supporting yourself.)

Originally Posted by DanPE

That would be paradise to any homeless person.

Unemployement isn't the primary cause of homelessness, at least not here. I believe it's usually related to issues like drug abuse, alcoholism, mental illness, domestic violence, the breakup of family structures, etc. (I believe the majority of people here already own their own homes anyway so losing their job is unlikely to cause them to lose their home. Even if they don't (such as younger people), their parents or grandparents usually do so, in the case of difficulties, they are more likely to end up living with them than on the streets).
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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

I've never been called DanPE before

Anyway looks like people get a lot more help over there getting back on their feet. Wish we had more of that here to help people who just need a helping hand. Some ppl are able and willing to work-they just can't find any. Meanwhile as they can't pay for living expenses things get worse and worse.

On the other hand, what stops anyone who's lazy, useless, or just would rather have fun than work from spending several years on benefits rather than work a job they may not like and pay heavy taxes? I mean if you could get a paycheck for hanging out with your buddies and partying, never having to set the alarm, then why not, if no work ethic was instilled in them?

I can see Big Parent trying to get people to interviews or getting skills, but they can't physically force them.

Would be nice if there was something here where disadvantaged/unemployed/poor people could go to some type of college/vocational school for free to gain new skills for a new career path. There are many people willing, they just don't have the money to be ale. Tuition prices are ridiculous. There are grants from some, if you qualify, but tuition is so high that the grants usually just pay part of it. Don't even get me started on $200 textbooks.

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Hey Thomas, what about mentally ill people who simply can't hold down a job? Do they get some kind of state payment for life to pay for their living needs, since mental illness is for life and it's not a choice like drunkenness for example?

You know, you're like the information representative for Ireland here LOL

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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

Hey Thomas, what about mentally ill people who simply can't hold down a job? Do they get some kind of state payment for life to pay for their living needs, since mental illness is for life and it's not a choice like drunkenness for example?

I think most people with mental illness can still function reasonably well in society anyway but, in answer to your question:

Yes, if they are severly mentally ill, since such people are unlikely to be employed in a normal setting anyway, and usually end up in some kind of sheltered accomodation or mental institution. I don't think it's a major issue though (as I did a quick search on it, and it seems there are less than 5,000 people in the whole country to whom that situation applies).

No, for less-severe cases but, the State may, for example, offer to subsidise their existing employment and educate their employer about their condition (since there are still wide-spread prejudices against any form of mentall illness). Where it's not possible to continue in their normal employment (such as if their condition becomes more severe), I know various charities operate State-funded 'sheltered employment' programmes too, though I don't know much about them, except that they allow people to be in employment while allowances are made for their specific problems, and that they are heavily regulated by the State.

Since it is, thankfully, not an issue that has ever affected me or my family, that's pretty much all I know about it.

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

You know, you're like the information representative for Ireland here LOL

Cool, though I can think of much less-depressing stuff I could educate y'all on!

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Cataclysm1987

14 years ago

I got a phone call fire the morning I was supposed to come in one day at my previous job. Guess they didn't have the guts to fire me in person. I was right at the 90 day mark too so they didn't have to give me benefits. Oh well, guess that's why I ended up in IM.

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cplace28

13 years ago

I got fired while on unemployment. I was an electrician and worked scale jobs, long story short i didn't take a job for less then half the hourly wage i was making so they fired me and took away my unemployment. I never even talked to my supervisor. He left me two messages on my answering machine and two weeks later got a letter in the mail telling me I was fired. The letter from unemployment came the next day. Funny it took a month till i got an unemployment check but a day to terminate them. Oh well

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dagaul101

13 years ago

In this economy managers are expecting more from their staff knowing many don't have a choice, it might be a good idea to have a sit down and clear the air as to what the problem is

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Dennis Gaskill

13 years ago

This thread is 19 months old -- it's a dead issue!

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How the H$LL do you get fired on your day off?

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