"Have you no shame, Warriors?"

Well, I see my message was deleted. ... Perhaps it seemed too dismissive. (For that I apologize.) ... But I was actually making a serious point -- people get ripped off in all sorts of endeavors when money/business is involved. It's nothing new. It's as old as the world.

I guess maybe it's good that you are ranting about it. Maybe ... maybe ... it might make someone who is on the fence fall back the other way.

But, truthfully, I feel the same way every time I go to get my car fixed. IMers are really no different. Business owners aren't complete chumps. Maybe they're ripping off others themselves.

In fact, you've given me a great idea. I think I might go into specializing in garages ... charging them the way they charge me.

M&M,

The reason you got so much flack last time you posted this rant is that you weren't as clear about the difference between people who can deliver on what they promise and the ones who can't.

I think you'll find people a bit more in agreement with this version. Except that you still use phrases like "And how HIGHLY UNETHICAL everybody (for the most part) seems to be with it." You have no clue what percentage of people are and are not doing it right.


Paul

Hey man, I'm working hard to try to raise the bar.

Two things:

1. Why stop at, or just pick on Offline Marketers? Have you seen some of the things going on in the WSO forum lately? Or generally in IM for that matter?

2. How do you know these marketers aren't getting results for their clients?

I'm on your side though - it's totally uncool, WHEN people marketing these guides to beginners, and make out like you don't need to know how to sell to people - or have any experience.

I worked in offline Advertising in the past, selling to local business owners, and even with a well planned, killer pitch and presentation, it's not easy.

So to market this stuff like it's childsplay and for beginners, IS unethical. Perhaps the blame should be more on the seller of the shovel, than the hopeful digger?

I make a decent income doing SEO for a company, but I never promise or guarantee anything.

I meet with them once a month to track progress and explain to them what our next plan of attack will be.

Within 3 months, I have helped them triple their sales and because of that, they plan on using me for a long time.

I can't tell you how many smaller companies approach me and are willing to hand money to me. If I don't think they will benefit from my services, I tell them. I then give them suggestions they can do themselves in order to improve their rankings without having to hire anybody.

Offering honest services will keep you in business for a life time.

I see that a few people so far have been asking me why I think a majority of the people don't have any idea what they are doing.

Pure and simple, because a the people who follow the herd never have any idea what they are doing. They jump from one topic to the next because they are NOT making money doing the last fad.

If they WERE good at SEO, or copywriting, or social media, or direct mail, et al, they would not drop everything to go dig for gold over in the offline market.

The fact that they DO drop everything and go dig shows they have had little to no real success up until that point.

Plus-- in reading the posts with what people are saying they will do I see a GIANT amount of "the blind leading the blind." And in reading their other posts and seeing their websites and what they promote, it solidifies my feelings.

For example (and I'm just pulling this off the top of my head, it isnt directed at anyone in particular!)--

When I see someone whose signature says "Follow me as I make my first $100 dollars in internet marketing!" or something make a post saying "Ok, here is my plan-- I will approach small businesses and offer them SEO services, List building services, and a direct mail campaign!" my mind is BOGGLED and I get PISSED OFF

Scammers. All of them.

Did you bump this thread because people didn't get as riled up as you wanted them to?

Just curious.

~Michael

I feel you; but a very wise Sensei of mine once told me that there are idiot business people attempting to do business in the world so the ones that know what they're doing can undercut them by even just a $1 and do less "selling" to get that work.

Sucks that someone might have to get duped in order to find a gem, but at the same time.. they're in business and shouldn't sign a contract unless they understand exactly what they're getting.

One of the things I always do is check sig files to see the real deal. Alexa, (although not the end all be all), can tell you a lot.

PLP

The worse part about it is if the SEO IS successful and no one has done anything about plugging the profit leaks that are already slipping through the cracks with existing customers AND not setting up (or at least making sure that the) system is able to handle the increase in traffic. (Which can definitely bankrupt a company)

One scenario can be: a service crew with an average ticket of $500 and it is because they do up-sell or down-sell and do an over all good job; then traffic and business goes up, they get in a hurry, up-selling stops (not enough time). The average ticket drops to $300 and the biz owner starts having to pay a lot of overtime. For a biz already on the edge, hence hiring what they think is a fix... they go under 6 months later when the SEO expert is 'helping' someone else.

Make sure a business can maximize all that traffic even when the 'expert' can deliver his/her promises. Like anything else in this life, it isn't cut and dried. 'Helping' off-line bisineses is a lot to learn. Traffic isn't everything, it isn't even half the equation.Most small owners are good at the service they sell, and lousy at not just selling it but managing everything that goes with owning a business. From managing time, employees and cash flow to setting up processes and generating traffic. Most businesses you approach for SEO or other traffic generating could better use info in how to manage the customer base they have already. That alone most times can raise a bottom-line 20-40%.

Fact is, most owners do not even know what they need. If you sell SEO and they hire you to do that and you do it, even if it is not what they needed, it isn't really your fault, is it?. But if you took a little time and learned the biz and what processes to implement and what problems to fix, you would be infinitely more valuable to them. Valuable enough that they'd have to pay you monthly instead of to do a service once and then you have to look for the next client.

A client's most valuable asset is their customer base. Repeat and refferal customers pay more, pay more often, are less trouble and infinitely cheaper to pitch.

As a business owner, I am approached every few days by some stupid idiot telling me what great things he can do for my business. At least two or three times a week.

And my job is to determine four things.

1. Is this thing likely to be good for my business?
2. Does this person have the expertise to do it for me?
3. Is the price one that I am willing to pay for this?
4. Do I have the funds available in the budget for this?

Now, if you don't ask all four of these questions, the truth is: you are going to make bad decisions. And most of the scammers are going to fall by the wayside on the second question anyway, because the bullsquat detector is shrieking bloody murder.

A business that hires one of these scammy, unscrupulous offliners does so for one of two reasons: they are doing a bad job of running their business anyway, or they don't really care one way or the other if it's a scam.

Like, for example, it's not their money. Many business decision makers in the corporate world get paid the same no matter what they do. If you can get in front of those, you can run scams all day long and they don't really care... so long as you file those TPS reports with proper cover sheets.

Too many of these threads honestly. This will exist wher ever you go.. be it online, offline etc

We need more help and less ranting. Ranting is not going to help anyone, and the only thing it does do is get a bunch of people disagreeing and others agreeing (Where in the hell is the value?).

Picture this:

A newbie comes to these forums, and reads through these sorts of threads and now they go away discouraged because they don't want to feel like they are conning a user out of money.

For example, although this thread is about offline marketing, a newbie may then transition those thoughts into other business models such as for example Google Sniping. They might feel because they know nothing about any of the niches promoted on clickbank, that no research is going to allow them to help a visitor because they could research the niche just as the newbie did and figure out the problem.

This is obviously caused by the constant rants going on in this forum, which may then dishearten a lot of beginners.

Go about your own business, and only post to provide value.

Obviously that is not the case if your posting in the Warrior For Hire section, but you get the drift...

Jay.

I think the best approach is to arm people against being scammed in the first place. If we did that, the scammers would see most of their prey disappear. People need to remember that you have to ALWAYS do the research before you accept what might be a shady deal. If it sounds too good to be true....etc. And it is so much easier to DO the research lately, just google it and that will get you started. As soon as I started learning from people here and doing research on google I started to see so many scammers just pop right out as obvious.

Ashley and James--

Thank you, you hit the nail directly on the head.

This is not high school speech and debate, so arguing about topicality is pointless.

I don't know why people are confused about who I am referring to in my post, especially considering the fact that I clarify it a few times over.

But it's not just internet marketing that works in this way.

Go to your local gym and take a look at the personal trainers. A lot of them have only slightly better than average bodies and knowledge but yet they can charge $30-100 per hour for personal training.

If you don't have the knowledge yourself then don't teach it to others!

But this occurs everywhere not just internet marketing.

I agree along with the Mouse. Seriously, these are the people that stink up the title of internet marketer. Its sad to watch people scramble the last of their savings to pay for some fake SEO benefits. May their karma catch up with them...

I've got a business partner who is great at SEO and traffic and I have a proven track record with Free Traffic methods as well as offline strategy. Perfect combination in my books.

I know nothing about about affiliate marketing or PPC. Doesn't mean I can't help local businesses improve their profits.

Just to give my clients confidence we are prepared to put our mouths where their money is and offer a money-back guarantee if we don't deliver the results.

MouseandMice your opening post says everything I've been thinking
Thank you for saying it all

OK, if you don't want to read a long post, here is the long and short of it: Marketing a local business and selling stuff through a website are completely different things. For one thing, one is sales, the other is marketing. (Most "Internet Marketers" aren't marketers at all; they're Internet salespeople.**)

While it is sad that scammers rip off local businesses, blanket statements are patently stupid. There are plenty of people here who help local businesses and don't over-charge. I get told all the time -- by my clients -- that I'm not charging enough, but that's just how I roll. Prove yourself first with a small campaign, then move on to bigger things after developing a level of trust with the client.

It's ironic that someone would conflate affiliate marketing/adsense/traditional IM with using the same set of skills to help brick-and-mortar businesses. What kind of marketing expert are you to make such a statement? It's a totally different ballgame. It's like saying that because someone hasn't enjoyed much success as a stage actor, they can't possibly engage students in a classroom as a teacher. If you were to Venn diagram the skills sets of each job, there would be some overlap, but they are not the same thing. Someone who fails as an actor might be a fabulous teacher and vice versa.

That said, SEO con-artists are scum, but the fact is that 80 percent of people looking to do business start their searches online. If your auto body shop isn't coming up when people search for "auto body repair in [town]" and your competitors' shops are, you're going to be out of business soon. That's a fact. If I can get you up there, why wouldn't I charge you for saving your business?

Further to that, anybody can put up a website. Few know how to build a website that gets the phone ringing or generates enough curiosity to reinforce the drive-by impressions enough to get someone to stop in one day on their way home from work, or builds a list or streamlines appointment setting or integrates with a POS or takes payment or collects and organizes data or handles some aspect of customer service or... A business website is not an online brochure. That's the point.

Small business owners need the Internet but they need it in a different way than someone selling weight loss products needs it. A lot of the same skills apply, though.

** Marketing = telling a story to a group of people that connects a product or service with a set of needs
Sales = convincing people to spend money on the product that they have learned about through the marketer's efforts

What you do in the offline world is true marketing -- you're reaching a whole group of people and getting them to the showroom. Whether or not they buy is not your responsibility. In "Internet marketing" what you're really doing is sales -- your site is your showroom, and you're enticing people to buy. A true Internet marketer wouldn't be selling hair loss products -- they'd be helping the site owner build targeted traffic.

I don't understand how you guys can even SLIGHTLY begin to blame the business owner in this scenario.

The economy is tough and the business owner is struggling-- they are wondering if they will be going under. An idiot who is an epic failure in the IM niche approaches them and starts talking about how amazing they are at marketing, how they can get them to the top of the SERPs, make a crazy good direct mailing, get them JVs, etc. and tells them they will never have to worry about their business again.

The business owner is scared and sees this as a chance that they will keep from going under. They believe that dream. They hire the idiot and after a few thousand dollars they "invest"-- hoping they will make it back, they lose it all.

The idiot played on the fear of the business owner-- and you're saying its the owner's fault?

Madoff was able to swindle BILLIONS from CEOs and business juggernauts, and you are saying that the small business owner who is about to go under should be smarter about it?

Fun fact-- When you are desperate, you are not smart.

Mouseandmice,

Your sig line belies the content of your post. Outside of that, I agree with you 100%. And con men ARE CONfidence MEN. The word comes from people doing things to get what they want by getting people to have confidence in them in a dishonest way.

not mentioning any names....

If you found a person that just got here from africa, told them that $10 worth of their currency was equal to $1 here, and had them pay $100 for a liter of water, you see NO problem, just because their thirst is quenched? They may later be very angry to find they paid 100 times as much.

Again not mentioning any names....

Do you have any idea how many items are sold based on secrets? Sometimes people change names, etc... to frustrate searches. Sometimes, research isn't possible. One company advertises a "special investment" that can supposedly give HIGH returns, with basically NO effort. I TRIED researching. ALL I managed to find is that others tried to research, and think it is a DRIP(Dividend ReInvestment Plan). They MIGHT be right. It matches the description 80-90%, but STILL falls short. Were they right? I didn't want to spend over $1000 to find out.

Steve

Most offline businesses don't really know what SEO is. They want leads and sales. Maybe they want increased brand awareness. Perhaps they want to be able to build a list or re-fresh an existing one.

The problem, if one exists, is in the promises that are made. If you can't deliver first page on the SERPs don't promise it. But that isn't the end game. There are other ways to utilize the internet and technology to help an off line business increase the number of prospects they get, the sales they make, and their efficiency.

This thread might be a bit old but how true it stands till today. Some warriors are reaping off where they should'nt. Small business are just stretching their wings for the first time to attempt to fly. why would some "pro marketers" break these young wings?

I totally agree with Mouseandmice that such warriors have no shame and it is such a pity.

What about the other 1% of people who call themselves "marketers" and yet have no idea what they are doing and are leading businesses on a wild goose chase in order to make a buck? Are you leaving yourself some leeway there?