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Yesterday a 10 month old baby died when her mother forgot to drop her at the sitter on the way to work.

This is the second child in this local area to die this summer and it happens every single year.

We can act outraged and call the parents stupid- but they aren't. They are human and their minds are filled with work and what needs to be done - and a sleeping child in the backseat slips their mind. Recent studies I've read have shown the mind shuts out some facts when actively working on thinking about new problems. That's how sometimes you drive somewhere and don't really remember parts of the drive itself.

This NEVER used to happen. You can't forget a child sitting on the seat beside you. This tragedy began happening when we were told children must be in the back seat to avoid air bag damage in an accident.

Would it be smarter to change the air bags or provide a button to disable them? I don't think I've ever known of a child killed by an air bag - but it takes both hands to count children who have died in locked cars here in the past 5 years. In this heat a car can reach 120 degrees in 15 minutes in the sun.

Parents need to find some way to remind themselves of their child in back of them. A ribbon on the steering wheel or something to stick on their seatbelt clasp - something!

I don't know how parents survive the guilt when this happens.

kay
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    It's IMPOSSIBLE for an "air bag" to NOT be dangerous! They have to react VIOLENTLY the instant a crash starts! A MOMENT too late and they just make things WORSE! They ALSO have to invade the person's space because that is the point.

    So nope, there is no way to really change the bag ITSELF. And YEAH, you could shut off the passenger side, etc... but that means even the driver gets less protection.

    But the fact is that it really has nothing to do with kids, but the violence and how they deploy, so they have rules about someone being under a certain weight or height in the front seat.

    GEE, I forget things driving to work, but those that have to do with ME I remember within a half hour and usually half way before I even get to the car. Others, like my phone, I usually remember within a couple hours.

    HERE'S a thought! They often have a weight sensor in the passenger side. The idea is that if it detects more than a few pounds, and the seatbelt isn't engaged, the alarm goes off. Maybe the could connect weight sensors like that into the departure circuit to go off if weight exists. You know, the circuit that warns you if you left the lights on or the keys in the ignition. Frankly, I don't know WHY nobody thought of that. They even have a HEARTBEAT monitor on some remotes to detect ambushes!!!!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Good idea, Steve.

      There has to be a solution that is automatic and sounds a warning if a seat belt is engaged or car seat is connected or something when the driver door is opened.

      I'm not sure the weight of a very small child would activate a sensor in the seat. It might be as simple as an alarm button that could be "active" for parents of young children and would sound when they open driver's door to remind them.

      Knowing how many children have died here from heat in cars - I really wonder if that number might not be higher than the number killed by air bags in crashes. It's nuts that this keeps happening.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Good idea, Steve.

        There has to be a solution that is automatic and sounds a warning if a seat belt is engaged or car seat is connected or something when the driver door is opened.

        I'm not sure the weight of a very small child would activate a sensor in the seat. It might be as simple as an alarm button that could be "active" for parents of young children and would sound when they open driver's door to remind them.

        Knowing how many children have died here from heat in cars - I really wonder if that number might not be higher than the number killed by air bags in crashes. It's nuts that this keeps happening.

        kay
        I know about that sensor because it always bugs me when I have my laptop case on the passenger seat. The weight can't be much more than 30 pounds. With the seat and all, the baby may weigh MORE. ALSO, you have to use the seatbelt, right? ALL seatbelts should be unlatched prior to locking things up, so... They can do this with a slight tweak to the current use of items ALREADY at the car manufacturers.

        Steve

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "We can act outraged and call the parents stupid- but they aren't."

    Sorry Kay, while it is sad and tragic, the adults are NOT blameless.
    For the life of me I cannot comprehend forgetting I have another life in the car with me.
    Maybe I'm wrong and for years the press covered it up, but I doubt it. This is something that has started happening in the last 10-20 years.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      "We can act outraged and call the parents stupid- but they aren't."

      Sorry Kay, while it is sad and tragic, the adults are NOT blameless.
      For the life of me I cannot comprehend forgetting I have another life in the car with me.
      Maybe I'm wrong and for years the press covered it up, but I doubt it. This is something that has started happening in the last 10-20 years.
      Then the only alternative is to believe the mothers did it on purpose.

      I'd need to be 110% positive the intentions of the mom before I'd accuse her of anything. The only thing worse than losing your kid would be to lose your kid then wrongly be accused of doing it on purpose.

      I saw a report on a Mom who did the same thing. She was very distraught and kept asking herself the same question Kim did..."How could I forget! How could I forget!". Sadly, she did.

      Steve's idea is good, but you'd probably be better putting the alarm in the baby seat instead of the car seat.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        It's a sad side-effect of the busy world we live in. I can't imagine leaving a baby in the car without realizing it but at the same time, I remember walking out of church without my second child when she was a newborn. I had her sister and walked outside, looked at my husband and said "where's the baby?" Of course, I ran back inside and this was a maybe 30 second lapse but I had nightmares over it.

        Sometimes our minds are going 90 mph and we just can't keep up with it all.

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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        And I agree with kim. This is BAD. Unfortunately, there IS a chasm between safe, and intentional harm. I forget what the full legal term would be, but it is above mere NEGLECT! NOT intentional, but still NEGLECT which, by its nature is UNINTENTIONAL. And people HAVE been prosecuted for it.

        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Steve's idea is good, but you'd probably be better putting the alarm in the baby seat instead of the car seat.
        Putting it in the baby seat only protects THAT, and how do you trigger it? I guess the car COULD have an auxillary alarm sensor input. A good idea, but you can BET people will want proprietary connectors. look at phones, computers, and mp3 players! You COULD have a timer, but people get used to them and they have to engage it. HECK, the plug I spoke of earlier would have to be plugged in. MAYBE they could have an optical, sonic, or radio trigger. But that could add $30 to the cost of the seat, and possibly car, so they may not become popular.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          And I agree with kim. This is BAD. Unfortunately, there IS a chasm between safe, and intentional harm. I forget what the full legal term would be, but it is above mere NEGLECT! NOT intentional, but still NEGLECT which, by its nature is UNINTENTIONAL. And people HAVE been prosecuted for it.



          Putting it in the baby seat only protects THAT, and how do you trigger it? I guess the car COULD have an auxillary alarm sensor input. A good idea, but you can BET people will want proprietary connectors. look at phones, computers, and mp3 players! You COULD have a timer, but people get used to them and they have to engage it. HECK, the plug I spoke of earlier would have to be plugged in. MAYBE they could have an optical, sonic, or radio trigger. But that could add $30 to the cost of the seat, and possibly car, so they may not become popular.

          Steve

          First, WHO CARES ABOUT THE LAW!!! Like I said in my first post, the only thing worse than losing a kid would be to lose a kid and then be prosecuted for it. What does society have to gain? Are you hoping that she won't do it again if you prosecute her? Don't you think a caring person will punish themselves enough?

          And about the trigger. I made that post so I could predict what you would do before you even knew you would do it.

          Funny how you knitpick and expect me to engineer my trigger, but you don't do the same for your own suggestion. I'll help you out: The same way you do for back seat trigger.

          However, I don't see any need to engineer your idea, since there's a better, easier one: A second rearview mirror focused on the babyseat in the back. It seems this is a case of "out of sight, out of mind".
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          • Profile picture of the author Bicoastal
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            First, WHO CARES ABOUT THE LAW!!! Like I said in my first post, the only thing worse than losing a kid would be to lose a kid and then be prosecuted for it. What does society have to gain? Are you hoping that she won't do it again if you prosecute her? Don't you think a caring person will punish themselves enough?

            And about the trigger. I made that post so I could predict what you would do before you even knew you would do it.

            Funny how you knitpick and expect me to engineer my trigger, but you don't do the same for your own suggestion. I'll help you out: The same way you do for back seat trigger.

            However, I don't see any need to engineer your idea, since there's a better, easier one: A second rearview mirror focused on the babyseat in the back. It seems this is a case of "out of sight, out of mind".

            A second rearview mirror was a necessity for me when my children were younger. I had three little ones at the same time (a single and then twins one year apart). How else can you see what is going on in the backseat when your children are infants without a second rearview mirror. They could be sleeping, they could wake up and get fussy, they could be doing anything back there and then when they get older, the rearview mirror doesn't go away because then you REALLY need to keep your eyes on them because children can get impulsive at a certain age. Detachable rearview mirrors cost around $10 (if that) and are found in any baby section Target, WalMart, etc. A worthwhile investment IMO.

            I do feel empathy for the mother though, all of us parents have done something we aren't proud of, thankfully most of them don't result in death though. My sympathies to her and her family.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kurt,
    Let me make clear that I am NOT saying any parent has done that intentionally.

    Tina, I think we all have done that at times.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Kurt,
      Let me make clear that I am NOT saying any parent has done that intentionally.

      Tina, I think we all have done that at times.
      Then why should they be "blamed"?
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Then why should they be "blamed"?
        The word "blamed" was only used to stay in context of the OP.

        How about "does not absolve them of responsibility"?

        Realistically, If I have a child and I leave it in my car and the child dies,from heat exposure or anything else, I AM responsibile for that death.

        The effect someone's actions have on another whether intentional or not does not absolve them from responsibility.

        This is a very basic precept of our legal system.

        Does that better explain it to you?
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          For the life of me I cannot comprehend forgetting I have another life in the car with me.
          I agree - but doubt those parents could have imagined it, either.

          When my sons were small they rode in the front seat. I talked to them while driving and could see them constantly. We were always making faces and giggling and interacting.

          My first experience of driving with a child in the back seat was with my grandson and I didn't like it. I couldn't see him and he could only see the back of my seat.

          What I'd like to know in cases like this are whether the parents were also on cell phones while driving to work. How many times were they distracted from the basic task of going to daycare and then to work?

          For parents, simply placing their briefcase or purse or suit jacket in the back seat with the child would make he difference. Can't forget a child if you have to open that back door when you arrive, can you?

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          The word "blamed" was only used to stay in context of the OP.

          How about "does not absolve them of responsibility"?

          Realistically, If I have a child and I leave it in my car and the child dies,from heat exposure or anything else, I AM responsibile for that death.

          The effect someone's actions have on another whether intentional or not does not absolve them from responsibility.

          This is a very basic precept of our legal system.

          Does that better explain it to you?
          No need to explain as I understand fully. And I strongly disagree.

          One issue I have is the judgmental aspect of your opinion, which goes beyond the legal discussion. Because it's a part of our legal system doesn't not mean you don't have a choice not to BLAME some, or "hold them accountable" if we're now going to play word games.

          The law can do something you disagree with...

          And you DO blame them. And it's this opinion of your's which I disagree with. Not the law, but your INTERPRETATION of the INTENT that law.

          Did I explain my point clearly?

          BTW, in my example, the "law" did the right thing and chose not to prosecute her.

          If you want to get legal, there's also a part of law that holds "what a reasonable person would do". This is actually the very root of our laws.

          There's also legal theories concerning when a person has already paid for an action above and beyond what the law applies and that these can and should be taken into consideration. Which is OBVIOUSLY the case here.

          Hell, if you want revenge, I saw the police interrogation on TV for the woman in my example. All you would have had to do was hand her a gun and she would have given herself the death sentence. Right then and there for you. There would have been no need to waste tax payer money.

          I'm more of a solutions orientated person, so instead of pointing fingers...

          The problem with Steve's concept of having a device installed in cars is that every car would have to be retro-fitted. And if you have a baby and two cars, both cars would need to up upgraded, instead of just moving the child seat.

          So not only wouldn't this work for any existing cars, it would be far more expensive for any multi-car family.

          Sure, baby seats would also need to be upgraded, but they are cheaper than cars and my suggestion could be added to existing chairs without having to be returned to the dealer.

          Steve...If you insist on high-tech, create a car seat with a switch that can be activated to set a device to "on" when the seat is occupied. There's a MILLION different types of switches that will work. Pick one: Pressure? Contact? Spring activated/weight? Mechanical lever/switch?

          This device in the car seat talks to a second device, attached to a key chain. If they key chain and baby seat are ever more than (let's say) 20 ft apart, the baby seat sends a signal to the key chain device, which then sounds an alarm.

          No Steve, I'm not sure how to make a distance detection device. I'll just adapt the device in any auto-focus cameras as my "measuring tape". And it doesn't have to measure distances perfectly.

          The problem with tech is that they depend on batteries, which can either fail or not be replaced immediately due to procrastination or forgetfulness, which is the problem we're tyring to solve.

          As with most safety devices, the car seat device along with a dedicated rear view mirror will probably prevent many of these deaths in the future.
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          • Profile picture of the author Bicoastal
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            If you want to get legal, there's also a part of law that holds "what a reasonable person would do". This is actually the very root of our laws.
            Yes, there is also INTENT. Both of these are weighed in court matters.
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by Bicoastal View Post

              Yes, there is also INTENT. Both of these are weighed in court matters.
              Intent and/or lack of intent are weighted in court matters. Steve already mentioned that.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Steve,
    I know what your thinking about too, and I can't remember the word.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I HAVE IT! CHILD ENDANGERMENT!

    Child Endangerment in Criminal Law - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

    ...
    Often, parents and others responsible for children break child endangerment laws without realizing that their behavior is criminal. For example, a father who has too many drinks while he is watching his four-year-old son could be prosecuted for child endangerment because he was inebriated while he was responsible for a child.
    ...
    Individuals who are convicted of child endangerment face imprisonment, fines and loss of custody of the children they have endangered.
    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Kurt,

    The trigger for the seat was the car doors opening. The car DOES know when the doors open. That has been true for over 50 years, I know THAT darn well. Even the departure alarm has been available for almost as long. So what do you expect it to do, sense the MINUSCULE change in radiation that MIGHT occur from opening the door? HOW!?!? Remember, you CAN'T say hook it to the car because, contrary to your claim, I DID say that! I ALSO included optical, sonic, and radio! The second mirror wouldn't work, since the may not be looking and, even if they were, they may STILL forget.

    What I was trying to do is make something that would annoy ONLY when the person needed to be reminded.

    Gee, maybe a post-it on the door. 8-/

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      First, WHO CARES ABOUT THE LAW!!! Like I said in my first post, the only thing worse than losing a kid would be to lose a kid and then be prosecuted for it. What does society have to gain? Are you hoping that she won't do it again if you prosecute her? Don't you think a caring person will punish themselves enough?

      And about the trigger. I made that post so I could predict what you would do before you even knew you would do it.

      Funny how you knitpick and expect me to engineer my trigger, but you don't do the same for your own suggestion. I'll help you out: The same way you do for back seat trigger.

      However, I don't see any need to engineer your idea, since there's a better, easier one: A second rearview mirror focused on the babyseat in the back. It seems this is a case of "out of sight, out of mind".
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Kurt,

      The trigger for the seat was the car doors opening. The car DOES know when the doors open. That has been true for over 50 years, I know THAT darn well. Even the departure alarm has been available for almost as long. So what do you expect it to do, sense the MINUSCULE change in radiation that MIGHT occur from opening the door? HOW!?!? Remember, you CAN'T say hook it to the car because, contrary to your claim, I DID say that! I ALSO included optical, sonic, and radio! The second mirror wouldn't work, since the may not be looking and, even if they were, they may STILL forget.

      What I was trying to do is make something that would annoy ONLY when the person needed to be reminded.

      Gee, maybe a post-it on the door. 8-/

      Steve

      Pretty much all cars and passenger trucks have computers in them somewhere. Why over complicate it...

      When you drive withOUT a seatbelt,the alarm sounds if someone is unbuckled in the seat with the car in motion.

      So, why not have an alarm when the rear seat belts are buckled while the car is parked and the door opens. I'm sure they can program some logic to keep it from being an annoyance, but realistically, if adults or older children are in the back, odds are their belts are unbuckled as soon as the car is in park.

      But with a car seat, it will be buckled. I mean, you get a reminder when you open the driver side door and you leave on your headlights or leave the key in the ignition. Why not an alarm if the rear seat belts are buckled?

      I guess if it was that simple someone would have done that?

      Tragic.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I agree Mike - it's something I mentioned early on in this thread. A "seatbelt buckled" bell when the driver's door opens would likely eliminate this problem. No matter how scattered the mind is - that tone would bring you back in focus quickly.

        I'm not absent minded - but on rare occasions I do forget my keys when I'm gathering up books and other things in a rush - but that small "tone" that sound when I open my door immediately means "keys".

        If it's important to save frustration and time to keep me from locking my keys in the car - wouldn't protecting children be just as important? Seems like it would be simple to implement and probably not too costly.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    When do we start taking responsibility for our own actions??? If you are unable to care for your child, then hire someone who can, or don't have children. Everyone thinks it's up to the manufacturers of said products to produce the next fandangled device to alert you to such happenings. Heck, when I was a child, my parents made do with what they had, and we turned out ok! Nowadays, it's like children (not all) are being raised by robots....so do we need vehicles that can talk to us and say "hey ma/pa", you left your baby in the back seat? Are we going to become a society that relies on "talking" diapers...."I just pooped my pants"? Where does it end? I realize we live in a stressful world. It's one thing to purchase a device that will help to relieve stress/simplify some things, but it's totally different expecting something to monitor our/your childs every move (Big Brother does enough of that!)...and we wonder why there are so many lawsuits. Good grief.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      When do we start taking responsibility for our own actions??? If you are unable to care for your child, then hire someone who can, or don't have children. Everyone thinks it's up to the manufacturers of said products to produce the next fandangled device to alert you to such happenings. Heck, when I was a child, my parents made do with what they had, and we turned out ok! Nowadays, it's like children (not all) are being raised by robots....so do we need vehicles that can talk to us and say "hey ma/pa", you left your baby in the back seat? Are we going to become a society that relies on "talking" diapers...."I just pooped my pants"? Where does it end? I realize we live in a stressful world. It's one thing to purchase a device that will help to relieve stress/simplify some things, but it's totally different expecting something to monitor our/your childs every move (Big Brother does enough of that!)...and we wonder why there are so many lawsuits. Good grief.
      Do they make talking pants yet? If not, I wouldn't be surprised if they appear soon!

      steve
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      • Profile picture of the author waterotter
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Do they make talking pants yet? If not, I wouldn't be surprised if they appear soon!

        steve
        Ha ha, not that I'm aware of Steve. There's a new product for ya.....just don't forget the adult "Depends" diapers. Bet there is a real market there with the increase in "Neglect, Alzheimer disease and Dementia, just to name a few.

        I'll just take a 10% cut!
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

          Ha ha, not that I'm aware of Steve. There's a new product for ya.....just don't forget the adult "Depends" diapers. Bet there is a real market there with the increase in "Neglect, Alzheimer disease and Dementia, just to name a few.

          I'll just take a 10% cut!
          Well, I just laid out the "how" so I will take a 20% cut, Steve, you get it in production and the last 70% is all yours!
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          • Profile picture of the author waterotter
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Well, I just laid out the "how" so I will take a 20% cut, Steve, you get it in production and the last 70% is all yours!
            LOL, Kim be nice. Can we at least split that?
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          • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Well, I just laid out the "how" so I will take a 20% cut, Steve, you get it in production and the last 70% is all yours!
            5% cut here cuz I participated in the discussion, and you like
            me a lot! cough, cough...


            Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I think I'm in agreement with Miss Otter that the line should be drawn
    somewhere. I don't know who would decide on whether or not to prosecute.
    I suppose the DA? I'm not so sure the basis for a decision should be with
    the idea that she has to live with what she did and that's sufficient.

    Many laws serve as a deterrent. If a mother gets nailed hard for doing
    this to her child, then maybe it will encourage people to pay more
    attention to important things like the baby in the back on a hot day.

    Also, think about the super-whamodyne "Hey moron, you're forgetting
    your kid's in the back" alarm...

    Let's say Steve invents one, it works, it sells, and he becomes an
    arrogant millionaire. Yah?

    Ok, let's also say one day one of Steve's AMPD's (anti-moron protection
    devices) malfunctions, and a child dies in a similar manner.

    Steve will be on the soup line. Yah? Yah.

    But, if Kurt's the DA, maybe he'll say... Well, Steve, you screwed-up, fella.
    But I'm figuring you have to live with this for the rest of your life. So we'll
    let you go, this time.

    Right.

    Convenience is fine. Entrepreneurs inventing convenience to get rich is
    fine. But come on... personally, on a hot-ass day in July in Delaware, I find
    it next to impossible to believe that I could ever forget that my child is
    in the back of my car. I can't see it.

    And these people who kill their kids because maybe their brains cannot handle
    the stress of taking care of kids without killing them need to be sterilized, or
    put on an island where they cannot procreate anymore.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kurt, most of the time I pretty much agree with ya, but I think your smokin something funny tonight.
    You have taken EVERY one of my posts completely out of context and tried to turn them into saying something I have never said.
    Seems at least waterotter and Ken get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    There is something called information overload and while you can't equate putting your car keys in the refrigerator with forgetting your child in the back seat, I think it is an innocent mistake - however an irresponsible one for a parent who should be more focused on the life they are responsible for.

    However the worst punishment there is must be to know your mistake killed your child. So I don't think there should be any prosecution unless the kid is obviously neglected in other respects.

    An alarm does not sound like it would be so difficult to invent - I know my car has a fit if the door is opened when the key is in the ignition - so a sensor on a kid car seat doesn't seem too far fetched.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    With todays technology I would bet the talking pants would not be that hard or that expensive to make.
    just a contact that would be set off when touched by liquid that would start one of those talking chips like they have in singing birthday cards now.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Kurt,

    I wasn't talking about something that would happen TOMORROW, or via special order. Transmission lockout, steering wheel lockout, the current departure alarm system, the current weight sensor used on the passenger side are ALL things that eventually were adopted as relatively STANDARD. As for the child/remote bit, that isn't a bad idea.

    ICSM but you'll just poke holes in it again. 8-)

    As for such a device's failure causing one to sue a manufacturer, manufacturers are sued for fraud, lack of reasonable car, or a product that directly contributes to a problem. If manufacturers were sued for failure of an item like you expressed, there would be lawsuits left and right!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


      As for such a device's failure causing one to sue a manufacturer, manufacturers are sued for fraud, lack of reasonable car, or a product that directly contributes to a problem. If manufacturers were sued for failure of an item like you expressed, there would be lawsuits left and right!

      Steve

      Like it doesn't happen. Come on, Steve.

      Two stories that come to mind.

      1. McDonalds is sued because the coffee is too hot. We won't discuss
      the person spilling it on herself and getting burned.

      2. I do know that a small plane manufacturer, can't remember which one,
      was sued by the wife of a pilot who killed himself because the plane ran
      out of fuel why he was flying it. Of course he crashed and was killed. He
      was a lawyer, by the way. So the wife of the lawyer sued and won millions.

      It wasn't Piper but another well known manufacturer. That happened either
      in the 70s or 80s.

      One result of that lawsuit is that manufacturer now has a placard on the
      dash of their plane that states the plane cannot fly without enough fuel,
      and there's a risk of crash. I've seen it.

      A pilot who was aware of the details of that event told me the story.

      Don't think you wouldn't get sued, Steve. But of course you're free to think
      you won't be sued. It's cool.

      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        Like it doesn't happen. Come on, Steve.

        Two stories that come to mind.

        1. McDonalds is sued because the coffee is too hot. We won't discuss
        the person spilling it on herself and getting burned.
        Caused directly by the hot coffee.

        2. I do know that a small plane manufacturer, can't remember which one,
        was sued by the wife of a pilot who killed himself because the plane ran
        out of fuel why he was flying it. Of course he crashed and was killed. He
        was a lawyer, by the way. So the wife of the lawyer sued and won millions.
        If that really happened, that is just DUMB! But HEY, robbers have sued people for not having roofs that allowed them to do whatever.

        It wasn't Piper but another well known manufacturer. That happened either
        in the 70s or 80s.

        One result of that lawsuit is that manufacturer now has a placard on the
        dash of their plane that states the plane cannot fly without enough fuel,
        and there's a risk of crash. I've seen it.

        A pilot who was aware of the details of that event told me the story.

        Don't think you wouldn't get sued, Steve. But of course you're free to think
        you won't be sued. It's cool.

        Ken
        Oh well, I WAS sued once because THEY owed me money! Bankruptcy preference.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Tell ya what, I'll make it 2.5% and pretend in public I like ya!

    (Pst... Steve,your share just went down another 10%, don't blame me, blame Ken and watterotter,the greedy *******s!)
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      ROFLMAO!

      Steve deserves it though!!! :p

      ***EDIT*** I was commenting on Kim's last remark here.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Tell ya what, I'll make it 2.5% and pretend in public I like ya!

      (Pst... Steve,your share just went down another 10%, don't blame me, blame Ken and watterotter,the greedy *******s!)
      That's us! Greedy *******s.

      Ok... let's talk, babe.

      Forget even pretending you like me in public. And I'll take 3.75%.

      I'm good with that.

      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author waterotter
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        That's us! Greedy *******s.

        Ok... let's talk, babe.

        Forget even pretending you like me in public. And I'll take 3.75%.

        I'm good with that.

        Ken
        Ditto

        By the way, where the hell is Steve?? I thought he always had last word!!! :p
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    OK ok, I'm just going to sit back and wait for Steve to offer to buy me out now.

    I'd say the McD's coffee case is the most well known one. Who in their right mind would think that A: coffee would be hot and B: you might spill it on yourself if you drink and drive.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    These mothers just wish they had an abortion, but don't want to put it up for adoption. So they kill their baby and think the hot car angle makes it look like an accident that they can walk away from.
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      These mothers just wish they had an abortion, but don't want to put it up for adoption. So they kill their baby and think the hot car angle makes it look like an accident that they can walk away from.
      This type of mindset scares me.

      In this day and age, with all the services offered, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. Giving up a child is not easy for anyone. Surely, a parent/parents that are unable to care for their newborn, for whatever reason, would rest better knowing their precious infant was in the hands of a loving, caring family as apposed to living with the guilt of killing their own child.

      There are many people looking to adopt a child, many of those who wish to adopt a newborn.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

        This type of mindset scares me.

        In this day and age, with all the services offered, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. Giving up a child is not easy for anyone. Surely, a parent/parents that are unable to care for their newborn, for whatever reason, would rest better knowing their precious infant was in the hands of a loving, caring family as apposed to living with the guilt of killing their own child.

        There are many people looking to adopt a child, many of those who wish to adopt a newborn.
        Didn't the US create a law like a decade ago that declared various places as safe places to leave your child if you don't want him/her anymore, at least as a baby? I thought they did that!

        CONFIRMED!!!!!!!

        Abandoned-Baby Laws

        Abandoned-baby laws have several parts: The laws identify a safe location where a parent can leave a baby, who is under a certain age, without risking the prosecution of the parent, while assuring the parent's anonymity and confidentiality. They also facilitate the termination of parental rights for infant adoption.
        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author waterotter
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Didn't the US create a law like a decade ago that declared various places as safe places to leave your child if you don't want him/her anymore, at least as a baby? I thought they did that!

          CONFIRMED!!!!!!!

          Abandoned-Baby Laws



          Steve
          Canada has not adopted this policy unfortunately.

          Child Abandonment Laws in Canada | eHow.com
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            if I had a baby, and even forgot for an hour
            But what if the first time you forgot - the temperature was 103 degrees? It only takes one mistake. It's easy to say "what I would do" because in hindsight of course none of us would do something so "stupid".

            What always surprises me about these accidents is that through an entire day of work, the parent doesn't realize what he/she has done. I can understand the initial forgetting more than I can understand working an entire day without thinking about your kids. And if you thought about them - seems likely you might remember where they are.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author Andie
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              But what if the first time you forgot - the temperature was 103 degrees? It only takes one mistake. It's easy to say "what I would do" because in hindsight of course none of us would do something so "stupid".

              What always surprises me about these accidents is that through an entire day of work, the parent doesn't realize what he/she has done. I can understand the initial forgetting more than I can understand working an entire day without thinking about your kids. And if you thought about them - seems likely you might remember where they are.

              kay
              And if you have spent days/months (presumably) of dropping the child at daycare before going to work..............how would you just 'forget' that part of a daily routine? It isn't that I can't imagine it happening, but you would think there would be something that would 'click'......you're at work 20 min early? And yes, thinking about them during the day...?

              Also, I don't mean to sound 'holier than thou', because I know I'm not, I've certainly made my share of parenting mistakes....and everyone does, it isn't like they come with an operation manual.
              I just simply can't fathom ''forgetting'' some so hugely important ....
              I'm sure I've discounted or forgot stuff others might consider 'vital' so maybe it is me that is on the different path.

              A
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              But what if the first time you forgot - the temperature was 103 degrees? It only takes one mistake. It's easy to say "what I would do" because in hindsight of course none of us would do something so "stupid".

              What always surprises me about these accidents is that through an entire day of work, the parent doesn't realize what he/she has done. I can understand the initial forgetting more than I can understand working an entire day without thinking about your kids. And if you thought about them - seems likely you might remember where they are.

              kay

              In a case like that(high temperatures, etc..), I would have just been more careful at the start.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

            Canada has not adopted this policy unfortunately.

            Child Abandonment Laws in Canada | eHow.com
            I did say US. I'm SURPRISED CANADA doesn't have such laws. But it isn't THAT old here. They only started running ads about adopted kids a few years ago. Their ads basically say you don't need to be perfect or smart, THEY WANT YOU!

            Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      These mothers just wish they had an abortion, but don't want to put it up for adoption. So they kill their baby and think the hot car angle makes it look like an accident that they can walk away from.
      While I don't think this is the mindset of the cases Kay and Kurt are talking about, the sad fact is that in SOME cases this is true.

      Again, we now hear more and more in the news about the mothers that kill their kids then drive the cars off bridges and claim the kids died in the crash, or that she barely escaped but she couldn't save the kids.

      Just a couple nights ago wehre I live we saw on the news where a grandmother got up and found her 5 month old grandchild on the bed dead.
      Seems the 17 year old mother had two friends over the night before and they spent the night and all 3 plus the baby slept on the bed.
      They are doing an autopsy to see if they accidently suffocated the baby.
      Sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andie
    The story isn't so unusual around here, Kay, and never fails to infuriate me. My mind has gone *many* places without me over the years, but as a mom/parent it has NEVER 'left' the fact that I have a child and only as they grow older does it ease up (just a little bit).

    <snip>We can act outraged and call the parents stupid- but they aren't. They are human and their minds are filled with work and what needs to be done - and a sleeping child in the backseat slips their mind. Recent studies I've read have shown the mind shuts out some facts when actively working on thinking about new problems. That's how sometimes you drive somewhere and don't really remember parts of the drive itself. <snip>

    If that fact 'slips their mind'..........their mind needs more serious work than mine does, and that is Really Sad.
    Even the basic of animals seem to die or kill for their offspring and it is beyond my comprehension that the human race has eradicated the responsibility of bringing another life into the world.

    The pain of the parents that 'forget' or 'lost track of' their INFANT is monumental I am sure. But, sadly, I personally think they deserve every moment of it for the rest of their lives...........because I simply cannot think of any 'excusable' reason for it ever happening.

    I can't help but think forgetting parts of an inconsequential drive is allowed by our minds, because it truly is not that 'important'........so our mind allows us to shuffle it into the 'doesn't matter' column.
    But a child...........sorry....that falls into a grievous offense IMO.


    Andie
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This problem is a recent phenomenon - in the years when I was raising kids, I never heard of a case of a child forgotten in a car. The child was next to you on the seat. There's a reason for the old saying "out of sight, out of mind" because that is the way our brains work at times.

      Laws mandated putting children behind you - I expect this forgetfulness happens more often than we think. It doesn't always end tragically as the child is noticed in the car or the parent realizes what has happened before too long - or the climate is such that the child isn't at risk of death.

      Have you ever walked into a room and forgot what you went there to get? Have you ever forgotten an item on your grocery list because you were preoccupied with something else? Have you ever driven past a turnoff you were to take because your mind was elsewhere? If you haven't you aren't human - we all do that at times. Usually it is a minor problem...but not always.

      We would all like to think this could never happen to us - because we are better parents or whatever. These aren't criminal acts - they are tragedies.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Gee, if I had a baby, and even forgot for an hour, I would, from that time on, do something like tie the seat to my arm. A little 15' string would do it. Set the seat in the rear, pass the string to the front, and tie it to your arm. You stray much further than necessary to get the kid out, and the string will certainly remind you.

    I mean with all the care you put into a child for 9 months plus, and you let him/her die THIS way!?!?!?

    And YEAH I have forgotten things. But not THAT long. HECK, one day I forgot my milk for an hour, but figured it was sealed and I could throw it out the next day(if it were a child, I would have come back). Anyway, I waited until noon the next day to throw it out and *****POP*****! I had a stinky mess to clean up. The milk can last for maybe 6 hours, and that was all I intended, but it was out for almost 2 days, and they do NOT build those containers well. Anyway, I have NEVER forgotten the milk since!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    When my son was a baby, I took him with me to WalMart to give my wife a break. Immediately upon getting into the car, my son falls asleep. His seat was directly behind mine, so I did not see him or hear him the entire trip. On the way to the store, I was listening to a baseball game on the radio.

    When you are doing tasks that you've done the same way for years. Like driving, going to the store, etc - You tend to take much of the thinking out of the process. When I got to the store, I took off my seat-belt, flipped off the radio, and headed into the store without a second thought. Just like I had done for years before that. It wasn't until I got into the store and saw a mother w/ her baby that I remembered my son in the back seat. Thankfully only a few minutes had passed, and we live in a climate where it rarely gets hot enough to kill an infant. However, I ran out of that store as fast as my legs could carry me. And then I was too shook up to go back into the store. And as Tina said above - even though my son is now 16 yrs old, I still have nightmares about it.

    But since that incident, my mindset on the matter has done a 180. I can easily see how this could happen. Where as before there was no way in my mind that a caring parent would ever let that happen. That's just not true. And a punishment is not going to be a deterrent. Because for a majority that do it on accident, there is no greater punishment than has already occurred. And for those that do it on purpose, they are already sick enough that a punishment wouldn't deter them anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andie
    Kay,
    Sorry.......I've done all the things you have named.....even if only for a moment.
    BUT, my 'maternal instincts' or whatever they can be called --are stronger than that.
    Does that make me a 'better parent'? Apparently it does because it put the fact that there is a child (be it helpless, dependent infant or wild-wandering toddler) in the Forefront of my cerebral process. Not the back of it, to be lost in the 'gee there's something I can't remember' space.
    In the years I was raising small children, all these safety laws were in place.

    I'll toss in a story here...once when my son was maybe 6-7 yrs and my brother came to visit and was taking my son w/him to my parents house to visit (4 hr drive away). As they were getting ready to leave, my brother was loading up his old Mercedes and said he had all this stuff in the front, on the seat and he could move it for kiddo to sit there instead of the back.
    While we walked to the car, we watched my son getting into the back seat, I just told my brother "he's fine in back - he's never sat in the front seat of a car in his life, he wouldn't know what to do".


    Honestly, the issue I think is the 'mindset' of the current society that has a quick/easy/think-proof cures and catchall for so much of their world that they don't require exerting their brain enuff to develop common sense - and appropriate priorities...and.... the family core has disintegrated so much that parents of infants ARE overloaded mentally, etc. and maybe they do have so much on their minds it isn't manageable. The tragedy is that the care of the baby is able to be the 'unimportant' thing on their mind.

    Andie
    (btw - interesting case on trutv - man is on trial for death of 4 yrold who was doped up on meds and *very* sick died while sleeping on floor beside parents bed - another preventable tragedy)
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
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      • Profile picture of the author Andie
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        Wow - to assume that you're a better parent I find somewhat insulting. I say "somewhat" because I know that it's not true. I've talked to many outstanding parents that this tragedy could have easily happened to. Don't assume that just because your life situation is different, that you are a "better" person.

        I've forgotten my son in the car before. It was only for a few minutes, but it could have been worse. And I'd put my parenting skills up against anyone's - any day of the week. It has absolutely nothing to do w/ how good or bad you are as a parent.
        Gary,
        Please don't mis-understand me, I tried to put it in the context of "IF" that is the standard of parenting.
        I certainly don't 'assume' I am a "better person" than anybody.

        Someone who is doing something out of the ordinary (as you were) are more likely to 'slip' and your mind was focused enough to realize it quickly. If you'd completed your shopping trip and gone to the car to find a dead baby, I'd argue that you cannot call yourself an 'outstanding' parent.

        You become a parent and you immediately assume responsibility. good bad or ugly. You cannot be an 'outstanding' parent and leave your child in a car all day while you are at work because you 'forgot to take him to daycare'. Simply does not compute. 1+1 does Not equal 3.


        A
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by Andie View Post

          If you'd completed your shopping trip and gone to the car to find a dead baby, I'd argue that you cannot call yourself an 'outstanding' parent.
          The only thing that prevented that was seeing another baby in the store. What would I have done if there wasn't a baby in the store that day?

          You just can't make the general blanketed assumptions that you're making. Not everyone's mind works the same as yours does. One's personal ability to focus varies greatly. I wouldn't go out on a limb as to make assumptions about these people's character in any way. Because nearly being one of these people, I can tell you that your assumptions are false.

          edit - sorry, not trying to get into an argument w/ you. I can see exactly where you're coming from. I was once there myself.
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          • Profile picture of the author Andie
            Originally Posted by garyv View Post

            The only thing that prevented that was seeing another baby in the store. What would I have done if there wasn't a baby in the store that day?

            You just can't make the general blanketed assumptions that you're making. Not everyone's mind works the same as yours does. One's personal ability to focus varies greatly. I wouldn't go out on a limb as to make assumptions about these people's character in any way. Because nearly being one of these people, I can tell you that your assumptions are false.

            edit - sorry, not trying to get into an argument w/ you. I can see exactly where you're coming from. I was once there myself.
            Gary,
            Awww....c'mon...let's argue, then we can have some makeup-posts that could be Awesome!!!!:p

            Seriously though...I am not trying to make any assumptions about anyone or their character. I think ALL parents have close calls and mishaps and near misses......it is the way of the world.
            I'm not even saying the parent should be punished (any more) in this case....
            I am actually a very 'relaxed' kind of parent.......until it comes to safety, and then there is this 'wall' that unbending.

            I recall a quote from my House MD show where he tells a fellow 'the mistake is only as big as the result it causes'
            This particular mistake this mom made will haunt her forever, I'm sure.
            I am sad for her and all involved, but I simply cannot come to a point where I can/will say it is a mistake that I can really relate to...or come to terms with it being an 'understandable' one.

            Andie <gently>
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by Andie View Post

          Gary,
          Please don't mis-understand me, I tried to put it in the context of "IF" that is the standard of parenting.
          I certainly don't 'assume' I am a "better person" than anybody.

          Someone who is doing something out of the ordinary (as you were) are more likely to 'slip' and your mind was focused enough to realize it quickly. If you'd completed your shopping trip and gone to the car to find a dead baby, I'd argue that you cannot call yourself an 'outstanding' parent.

          You become a parent and you immediately assume responsibility. good bad or ugly. You cannot be an 'outstanding' parent and leave your child in a car all day while you are at work because you 'forgot to take him to daycare'. Simply does not compute. 1+1 does Not equal 3.


          A
          Andie,
          You are 100% correct.
          I'm with you.
          I too have made mistakes.But IF I had left my child in a vehicle or any other unsafe place or circumstances where it ended up injured or dead then I would be a less than stellar parent. And I alone would be responsible.The fact that I may have had work,taxes,dinner,problems with my neighbor or anything else would not take away the responsibility or the blame.
          And admittedly it would be a very hard burden on my soul to live with.



          Thankfully I have raised 3 kids of my own and 2 stepkids to adulthood with only minor injuries,but we do have a batch of 4 (and growing) grandchildren where we will be starting all over with.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    My brother's boss left his baby in the car just a few weeks ago. He discovered the dead child when he left the office for lunch.

    He's a mid-level manager for a large company. He's certainly not stupid, and I seriously doubt that he doesn't love his kids any less than anyone else. He'll carry his guilt to the grave.

    Read this article for a much better understanding of all of this.

    For those who won't take the time to read it, this happens 20-25 times a year in the US, and most of these are related to the passenger-side airbags.



    Originally Posted by KV's Confession

    My youngest son is eight.

    When he was an infant, I very seldom took him to day care. One day I had that responsibility. I was a mile past his day care on the way to the office when he made a small noise in the back.

    My blood ran cold.

    How many of you think through and plan your upcoming day when you're on the way to work. That's all I was doing. That's all it takes.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      And if you have spent days/months (presumably) of dropping the child at daycare before going to work......
      In two of the last three times this has happened here (don't know about the latest one) - it was a parent who usually did not take the child to daycare.

      Kelly - So sad to hear of another child's death. The article is excellent and mentioned several things that were in the report I read some time ago. For those who firmly believe such a thing couldn't happen to them because they would never forget a child...this is an eye-opener...

      What kind of person forgets a baby? The wealthy do, it turns out. And the poor, and the middle class. Parents of all ages and ethnicities do it. Mothers are just as likely to do it as fathers. It happens to the chronically absent-minded and to the fanatically organized, to the college-educated and to the marginally literate. In the last 10 years, it has happened to a dentist. A postal clerk. A social worker. A police officer. An accountant. A soldier. A paralegal. An electrician. A Protestant clergyman. A rabbinical student. A nurse. A construction worker. An assistant principal. It happened to a mental health counselor, a college professor and a pizza chef. It happened to a pediatrician. It happened to a rocket scientist.
      These weren't bad parents - and I honestly don't know how you live after being responsible for something like this.

      Our lives move too fast - experts don't just say put the baby in the back seat - they advise having that baby face the back, too. He's not even visible to you if you do that.

      Work is stressful - schedules are frantic - worries are constant - cell phones are ringing - this really could happen to anyone. For every child who dies this way there are probably dozens who are forgotten for a short time and then remembered before damage is done.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      My brother's boss left his baby in the car just a few weeks ago. He discovered the dead child when he left the office for lunch.

      He's a mid-level manager for a large company. He's certainly not stupid, and I seriously doubt that he doesn't love his kids any less than anyone else. He'll carry his guilt to the grave.

      Read this article for a much better understanding of all of this.

      For those who won't take the time to read it, this happens 20-25 times a year in the US, and most of these are related to the passenger-side airbags.
      Wow, what a heart wrenching article. Bringing back terrible memories of nightmares of a scenario that could have been.

      That would be a parent's worst nightmare for sure. - And what's a good solution? Some say that we shouldn't be so reliant on gadgetry - such as a warning system. But it was such gadgetry that brought us to this sad scenario in the first place. Sure parents of decades past never had these type of "forgetting" your child in the back-seat stories. But they did have stories of children being on their lap, and then dying from even the lowest of speed accidents.

      Automobiles are dangerous, there's just no getting around that. And through the years we've taken great strides at reducing deaths caused by them. And I think that more of the story here is the access we have to these kind of stories. Because if you look at the actual numbers, you're 3 times more likely to get struck by lightning than to have this happen to you. So as hugely tragic as these stories are, this may be the "least of evils" type of scenario. For example, would even MORE than 25 kids per year be killed if allowed to sit in the front seat, or in front of an airbag? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd have to assume that the answer would be yes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    As Kay has said - in most of these cases (all of them that I have read about) the routine has changed. When someone usually drops a child off at daycare they are unlikely to suddenly forget - but when they never do they get into the car and go into autopilot, and that autopilot doesn't include having an infant in the car.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Nicola Lane View Post

      As Kay has said - in most of these cases (all of them that I have read about) the routine has changed. When someone usually drops a child off at daycare they are unlikely to suddenly forget - but when they never do they get into the car and go into autopilot, and that autopilot doesn't include having an infant in the car.

      I agree. And a lesson for all of us to not let ourselves run on autopilot when driving a car. Ever. It's hard to break such a habit, but even other types of accidents could probably be prevented if we were all more focused when driving.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andie
    Sadly, HTown is so large, it is a really rare day there isn't a list of numerous deaths on the news page. Often they are tragedies involving babies or toddlers...
    a tub or pool drowning, running out behind a moving car, etc etc

    Thanks for sharing the article, was very interesting...I do think the 'out of the norm' has played a part in many of the stories.
    I do know some newer cars allow pass. airbag to be disabled, but that doesn't put the child in the safest 'position' in a vehicle (center back, they say).

    I've read before somewhere <and believe it> that while people these days think that the more 'multi-tasking' they can manage, the more they are accomplishing but in actuality, a majority of what they do is not necessarily done very well.
    People don't like to say they can't 'do it all' so they try and can't so it leads to something failing along the way.

    heck, i won't even talk on my phone while driving because I know it distracts me too much. Too many don't even know they are not doing one or the other very well..... until it is too late...
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "heck, i won't even talk on my phone while driving because I know it distracts me too much. Too many don't even know they are not doing one or the other very well..... until it is too late... "

    Good for you Andie! It really irritates (and scares!) me when I talk to someone and they complain about people that talk/text while driving, then you ride with them and they are guilty of the same thing!
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    • Profile picture of the author Andie
      I watched a show onetime that took some teens through a pretty simple driving course with cones, and they had all said ''sure, i can text and drive'...
      by the end of the experiment all but one said 'no more'.....they didn't really think they were doing so badly but the test results showed them other wise.

      funny, what you think you know until you find out you don't know....
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    My mother stopped driving a few years ago, because she thought her mind was failing her. She was in a few accidents in the matter of a month. Thankfully no one was hurt, but she was convinced that she should stop driving. - Which is fine with me. I feel it's better to be safe than sorry. However, later we had found out that it was probably not her aging mind at all, but her new cell phone. Each accident happened while she was on her phone. She still has a very sharp mind. But you just can't do those kind of things when you're in charge of maneuvering such a large dangerous piece of equipment.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Gary,
    I've got the other problem, my mother (who is 86 years old and just fell and cracked one of her hips about 10 days ago) thinks she is stil an excellent driver.
    Luckily she hasn't had "her" car to drive for almost 2 years now. I come from a relatively large family and for some reason there is always a vehicle emergency where someone has to borrow her car,so she can't have it. My brother, sister, her bf,her two sons and my daughter and her husband have been taking turns.
    I would be helping too but I'm the one that moved away.
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  • Profile picture of the author sarahberra
    This is very sad. Actually I'm sure the parents are heart broken. Horrible accidents happen because no human being is perfect. Am an overly protective mother who works at home so I am always on alert. However, I can understand how a parent can quickly turn into a zombie if they are constantly working and taking care of so many needs.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    With me today, I had a car PACING me! He made it IMPOSSIBLE for me to continue. I eventually slowed down and ONLY THEN did he turn on his turn signals. INCREDIBLE! Liike 3 people acted like missiles heading towards me. ONE guy actually went around me, so he was in front, and started to step back. He stopped only after I said WHOA! He acted all startled. WHAT did he think he walked around? A woman did the same thing later, walking one way and then, while I was passing, walking the other way and nearly hit me. HECK, when I was getting off the plane today some jerk started going the OTHER WAY, and didn't seem to notice the 100 or so people going the other way. I don't think ANYONE was pleased with HIM!

    They can't even walk or track where they are when they are WALKING, I would rather never see them drive, let alone while texting. Delta decided to change my schedule and not tell ANYONE, NOT EVEN THEIR KIOSKS! I went to the kiosk, and it said there was NO reservation. I had to wait for a person that basically said OH, we changed your schedule but ALL we can give you is one seat request, you have to ask the gate agents to give you everything else! So I had very little time to do any of this stuff.

    steve
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  • Profile picture of the author spartan75
    very sad to hear that story
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Steve - I gotta say - you crack me up sometimes

      I know what you mean, though - people can just get in the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    I'm sorry but I have three children and I cannot imagine for one second completely forgetting about them! My children all travelled in the back seat and I never once forgot about them.

    Tina mentioned a situation where she went outside and left the baby inside and remembered 30 seconds later - 30 seconds!!! Things like this are normal, sometimes you do that, but sure within 30 seconds or so you realize, not hours later.

    I'm sorry, I really find this hard to comprehend just forgetting a baby. As a mother I just can't believe that is possible.

    But, regardless of whether it is possible or not to forget your baby - as a mother your child is your responsibility, you are their protector, you are their life. It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY not to forget them, to protect them and not let things like this happen. I know accidents do happen, but I really struggle with the fact that a mother can just forget her baby!
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Sheryl Polomka View Post

      I'm sorry but I have three children and I cannot imagine for one second completely forgetting about them! My children all travelled in the back seat and I never once forgot about them.

      Tina mentioned a situation where she went outside and left the baby inside and remembered 30 seconds later - 30 seconds!!! Things like this are normal, sometimes you do that, but sure within 30 seconds or so you realize, not hours later.

      I'm sorry, I really find this hard to comprehend just forgetting a baby. As a mother I just can't believe that is possible.

      But, regardless of whether it is possible or not to forget your baby - as a mother your child is your responsibility, you are their protector, you are their life. It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY not to forget them, to protect them and not let things like this happen. I know accidents do happen, but I really struggle with the fact that a mother can just forget her baby!
      It doesn't really matter if you can believe it or not, it happens. And if you're a stay at home mom, it's a lot different than for those that have to juggle jobs, sitters, daycares, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Sheryl hit it, even though I think a lot of other posters in the thread "get it" too.

    "But, regardless of whether it is possible or not to forget your baby - as a mother your child is your responsibility, you are their protector, you are their life. It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY not to forget them, to protect them and not let things like this happen. I know accidents do happen, but I really struggle with the fact that a mother can just forget her baby! "


    When you bring a life into this world, it is your responsibility to take care or it, no matter what. You can make excuses, justify it however you want,say the world is so hard that its an honest mistake to leave your child somewhere and let it die.
    While some of you are feeling sorry for the parent that has lost a child from their own neglect ( cause that is exactly what it is) I and others here grieve for the lost child.
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      When you read/hear stories about these tragedies, most seem to have a commonality that is preventable. They are DISTRACTED by something, be it the football game on the radio, talking on their cell phone, worrying about work issues etc. etc. etc.

      Maybe some parents/caregivers prioritize things differently. Like Kim quoted Andie: "heck, i won't even talk on my phone while driving because I know it distracts me too much. Too many don't even know they are not doing one or the other very well..... until it is too late... " He is using his head, he is also not putting those around him in danger. Heck, here in Canada, you CANNOT talk on a cell phone and drive (you can if it's hands-free, but that is still a distraction).

      We live in a fast-paced society now, and it will only get worse. Maybe we all need to prioritize and limit our distractions to prevent these tragedies from happening.

      Just a side note to this; look at the increasing rate that animals are being left in vehicles. It's alarming. There is no need for it period.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I think some of you did not read the entire article that was linked above.

        We personalize it with "I'm better - it coudn't happen in my family" and we feel safe. I doubt any of those parents felt it could happen to them either.

        Larry King Live had neurologists and other brain experts on the show last night. I caught only a few minutes - but they were talking about how the brain of a normal, intelligent person can re-order memories and priorities without the person realizing it. They pointed out this happens most often when the person's "routine" is changed. It is not conscious and amounts to the brain "fooling" the person into remembering a task as "done" when it wasn't.

        What I find appalling is a product has been designed to prevent this from happening - but can't be produced due to fears of "liability". That's a sad statement on how we do things today.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Andie
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I think some of you did not read the entire article that was linked above.

          We personalize it with "I'm better - it coudn't happen in my family" and we feel safe. I doubt any of those parents felt it could happen to them either.

          Larry King Live had neurologists and other brain experts on the show last night. I caught only a few minutes - but they were talking about how the brain of a normal, intelligent person can re-order memories and priorities without the person realizing it. They pointed out this happens most often when the person's "routine" is changed. It is not conscious and amounts to the brain "fooling" the person into remembering a task as "done" when it wasn't.

          What I find appalling is a product has been designed to prevent this from happening - but can't be produced due to fears of "liability". That's a sad statement on how we do things today.

          kay

          Kay,
          I find many sad things in the way 'we do things today'...and yes, I read the entire article and parts of it twice.
          Unfortunately the product creators have a serious and valid concern.

          We as 'progressive society' have developed so many things that do the (socalled) simple tasks FOR us, that it is <ie> refreshing to run across a counter clerk that can actually, mentally COMPUTE the correct change should they happen to hit the wrong electronic key.
          I picked that example because not long ago I had one that entered about 1.00 off the actual cash I handed him, so the correct change didn't pop up. The idiot was FROZEN for about 3 minutes and I didn't offer to help the young man out. very sad in my opinion.

          I think Sheryl got it right that many people prioritize very differently, and some simply cannot or will not let a phone ring without picking it up. Or say 'no, I'm already loaded down' so I won't take on that task.

          Our brains DO manage a great deal of our subconscious thought processes, but it is also controlled by what we choose to load into it.
          I'm not sure that having some 'alarm' to say 'your quiet good little baby is here' isn't going to cause More people to just stop bOTHERING to think about it at all. hey, they have an alarm so why think about it at all? <scary>

          I've never thought a phone call was reason to leave my child in the tub alone, I've never thought an exit was so important I cut across 2+ lanes or many other things I see/hear of people doing.
          I'll reiterate here - I am NOT saying I am better by any means.......just have different ways of seeing things than some.

          I know the tragedies CAN happen to anyone and my heart goes out to anyone ever that suffers through one. Nobody asks to be the one that something horrible happens to.......but sad as they all are, even the article calls them 'fatal Distractions'........they are distractions because they remove Focus from the really important things.
          I have lost as well as turn down jobs because of my babies.
          I have hung up on people because of my babies.
          Over-diligent? perhaps. I'm okay with that.

          Knowledge is power for anyone - somewhere somehow I think prenatal time should have mandatory parenting education. The more we 'ramp-up' the gadgets/gizmoes intelligence; the more we 'dumb-down' our brains.......and I'm not convinced that is a good thing.

          Andie<chatty this morning apparently>
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think Sheryl got it right that many people prioritize very differently, and some simply cannot or will not let a phone ring without picking it up. Or say 'no, I'm already loaded down' so I won't take on that task.
            I agree - I've had friends shocked that I didn't answer my phone (and I frequently don't answer it) because I had other priorities (reading a story to my son - building a puzzle with the kids, etc).

            The more we 'ramp-up' the gadgets/gizmoes intelligence; the more we 'dumb-down' our brains.......and I'm not convinced that is a good thing.
            I so agree with that. I've mentioned here in OT before that I'm appalled at parents who are in stores or walking in public with their children while talking constantly on a cell phone.

            Saw a show recently where children were asked what they thought when their parents were on the cell all the time. The kids said "I feel like I'm not important" or "I'm not as interesting as her friends".

            We're in danger of creating so many superficial connections that we lose the real connections - the eye-to-eye contact, the physical contact, the mental focus on those we are spending our lives with.

            Some of the best conversations I've had with kids have been while shopping or walking - you can't have that conversation if your cell phone has become part of your skull.

            You may be right about an alarm being just one more sound to ignore - but I know the buzzer on my car reminds me on occasion when I forget to remove the car keys from the ignition and hearing that alarm trigger "keys" in my mind instantly.

            I do think when our worries about liability are greater than our concerns for safety, we shouldn't be okay with that.

            kay
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I think some of you did not read the entire article that was linked above.

          We personalize it with "I'm better - it coudn't happen in my family" and we feel safe. I doubt any of those parents felt it could happen to them either.

          Larry King Live had neurologists and other brain experts on the show last night. I caught only a few minutes - but they were talking about how the brain of a normal, intelligent person can re-order memories and priorities without the person realizing it. They pointed out this happens most often when the person's "routine" is changed. It is not conscious and amounts to the brain "fooling" the person into remembering a task as "done" when it wasn't.

          What I find appalling is a product has been designed to prevent this from happening - but can't be produced due to fears of "liability". That's a sad statement on how we do things today.

          kay
          Many studies agree that there is like a buffer in your brain to process current things and it tends to be about 5-7 items. You don't tend to realize it unless you try to do a lot of things at once, or try to remember a lot of things at once. One reason why kids seem to learn so well is they work on so little at a time.

          As for being fooled, there may be missing info, etc... Just yesterday I had to remember taking my warfarin. I guess I was distracted, and didn't really remember, but I could see my figuring the dose(My diet changed), counting out the tablets(I decided to use some old 1mg stock), etc... So I was able to determine that YEAH, I DID take it.

          And I like to park relatively close to the hotel. That means I could park in front, the back, or the side. I never really try to remember where I parked, but can generally remember the exact spot I parked, not just merely if it is front/back/side.

          HECK, I had to park in the economy lot yesterday and with all the stress, etc... I know I parked in a regular parking spot that was in the last 1/3rd of the 2nd part of the last lane that is farthest away from the two bordering streets in the red lot. Just remembering THAT narrows it down to like 5 cars.

          And HISTORICALLY I have remembered ALL passwords. Sadly, today, I have like 500 passwords and many are different, so I use keepass.

          Maybe parents should get used to checking for their kids, etc... It used to be that one person took car of the kids and home, and the other tried to take care of other things, and there was a cross check. The crazy ideas and economy have destroyed the ability for so much backup, it is a shame. Frankly though, people shouldn't just be allowed to ignore, etc...

          BTW the idea of gadgets dumbing down people IS true. You may see the hatred of the idea of relying 100% on gadgets runs through some of my posts. EVEN though I now use keypass, I try not to rely on it. I have TRIED to learn something new every day. I haven't been as good there as I should be, but few I know seem to do as well as I do there, and there are VERY VERY few that seem to do as well as I would like to. Many have ended up on talk shows, etc... for doing that well.

          Still, the idea that so many don't try to learn the main language in the US, or can't do simple math without a calculator, etc... MAN! I met one guy that seemed VERY knowledgable about some things but I had to tell him taht 200*4=800. I heard of one case where a guy ARGUED with another who claimed that any number times ten merely had its decimal point shifted to the right, so 1*10=10 or 1.5*10=15. IMAGINE, an ARGUMENT! He had to PROVE it!

          And the lack of learning new things IS a contributing factor to alzheimers.

          Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I think some of you did not read the entire article that was linked above.

          We personalize it with "I'm better - it coudn't happen in my family" and we feel safe. I doubt any of those parents felt it could happen to them either.

          Larry King Live had neurologists and other brain experts on the show last night. I caught only a few minutes - but they were talking about how the brain of a normal, intelligent person can re-order memories and priorities without the person realizing it. They pointed out this happens most often when the person's "routine" is changed. It is not conscious and amounts to the brain "fooling" the person into remembering a task as "done" when it wasn't.

          What I find appalling is a product has been designed to prevent this from happening - but can't be produced due to fears of "liability". That's a sad statement on how we do things today.

          kay
          I don't know what other people think, obviously, but I doubt people really
          have the attitude that they are better. Maybe some think it can't happen
          to them, I don't know.

          Anything is possible.

          I've read in more than one place about the phenomena that occurs with
          information overload and what can happen. Years ago I read a book about
          US POW's in Vietnam, and of course almost all of them were captured pilots.

          One POW who was released in the early 70s, I think, told an interesting story.

          He was shot down by a missile. And all those years in captivity he believed his
          equipment malfunctioned. There are certain kinds of receivers in combat aircraft,
          RHAW receivers (radar homing and warning), that detect radar search, lock on,
          missile launch due to guidance transmitters, etc. I used to work on that stuff
          when I was in the AF and other similar cool electronic things.

          Anyway, after he returned home, he was played the audio from other pilots he
          was talking to when he was shot down. The aural warnings were audible from his
          cockpit that a missile had been launched and was heading toward him.

          He swore that he never heard the audio warning. The conclusion was that his
          brain filtered it out because there was too much going on in the cockpit.

          So yes, of course that is a real thing that happens with brain overload.


          Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Steve... I think this happened maybe 10 years ago. But I was walking out of
    a store, and there were two women in a car and arguing. One called out to
    me and asked, "Sir, how much is 8 +13"?

    Not kidding. I told her. And it's not that they were arguing over who had the
    right answer because neither one of them knew. I'd say they were in their
    20s or early 30s.

    And driving! lol Something doesn't mix, there. Whatever. I did my good deed
    that day.


    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      Steve... I think this happened maybe 10 years ago. But I was walking out of
      a store, and there were two women in a car and arguing. One called out to
      me and asked, "Sir, how much is 8 +13"?

      Not kidding. I told her. And it's not that they were arguing over who had the
      right answer because neither one of them knew. I'd say they were in their
      20s or early 30s.

      And driving! lol Something doesn't mix, there. Whatever. I did my good deed
      that day.


      Ken
      Oh well, at least 8+13=21 is a LITTLE harder than the examples I gave. STILL nothing one should EVER have to ask another but, oh well. BTW the guy that dudn't know 200*4? He was 49. He LOVED to talk and was comparing stats with the father I told you about. So he is older than I am. HECK, repetitive addition 2+2=4+2=6+2=8 200*4=800 would STILL take less time than he did.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    We personalize it with "I'm better - it coudn't happen in my family" and we feel safe. I doubt any of those parents felt it could happen to them either.
    I don't think that I am better than anyone else, I just find it incredibly difficult to understand how someone can just forget their baby.

    As for the 'change of routine' thing, I would think that having something extra added to your routine would be more reason not to forget. When I get something extra in my routine that I have to do, that is usually the one thing that I am thinking about getting done.

    It doesn't really matter if you can believe it or not, it happens. And if you're a stay at home mom, it's a lot different than for those that have to juggle jobs, sitters, daycares, etc.
    I know there is a lot more rushing around with a working mother, but when you have three kids and some of them are at school when the youngest is a baby, you are stilling rushing around and juggling many things. I still never came close to forgetting my baby while I was rushing around getting the oldest ready for school and the middle one ready for kindergarten etc.

    Regardless of whether you work or not - they are still your babies!

    As for being fooled, there may be missing info, etc... Just yesterday I had to remember taking my warfarin. I guess I was distracted, and didn't really remember, but I could see my figuring the dose(My diet changed), counting out the tablets(I decided to use some old 1mg stock), etc... So I was able to determine that YEAH, I DID take it.
    I can relate to this though, I take thyroxine for a thyroid problem and some days I stand there and try to remember if I have taken it or not!

    So yeah I'm human, I do forget things. But a BABY!!!! This is where I struggle to understand. My babies are the number 1 most important thing in my life and they are ALWAYS the number 1 priority. You just don't forget your babies.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Sheryl Polomka View Post

      I don't think that I am better than anyone else, I just find it incredibly difficult to understand how someone can just forget their baby.
      Understand it or not, it still happens.

      It can happen to anyone.

      I can't imagine it happening to me, but that doesn't mean it won't. Unfortunately, we don't have to understand something so tragic for it to happen.
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Understand it or not, it still happens.

        It can happen to anyone.

        I can't imagine it happening to me, but that doesn't mean it won't. Unfortunately, we don't have to understand something so tragic for it to happen.
        It seems to me the premise is it can happen because we don't know the
        future. It's all based on what we don't know.

        We don't know that if the circumstances were just right, all the planets
        lined-up perfectly, that anyone could do the same thing.

        But using the same premise of not knowing, can it be refuted or denied
        that it can't happen to anyone?

        You don't know that if the planets aligned perfectly that a person still
        would not allow that to happen.

        You don't know, and neither do I.

        Theoretically it can be said that anything is possible, and it can happen
        to anyone. Samey-same with theoretically anything is possible and it
        can't happen to anyone.

        Some people are OCD about certain things, and maybe some people are
        OCD about making sure something like that will never happen. You can't
        deny that possibility because you don't know.

        Even though they're OCD about it, then using the same logic they can still
        screw up just once and it will happen. Who knows.

        But the logic that's popular in this thread because people don't like how
        others feel about it does encompass both possibilities.


        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          It seems to me the premise is it can happen because we don't know the
          future. It's all based on what we don't know.

          We don't know that if the circumstances were just right, all the planets
          lined-up perfectly, that anyone could do the same thing.

          But using the same premise of not knowing, can it be refuted or denied
          that it can't happen to anyone?

          You don't know that if the planets aligned perfectly that a person still
          would not allow that to happen.

          You don't know, and neither do I.

          Theoretically it can be said that anything is possible, and it can happen
          to anyone. Samey-same with theoretically anything is possible and it
          can't happen to anyone.

          Some people are OCD about certain things, and maybe some people are
          OCD about making sure something like that will never happen. You can't
          deny that possibility because you don't know.

          Even though they're OCD about it, then using the same logic they can still
          screw up just once and it will happen. Who knows.

          But the logic that's popular in this thread because people don't like how
          others feel about it does encompass both possibilities.


          Ken

          Huh?

          Sorry. A little early for me

          For me, that's taking this debate a little deeper than necessary. Theoretically, you can drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. But you may live to 100.

          Theoretically, the human body is designed to live 150 years. But you may die tomorrow.

          I know the theoretical can work both ways. But we're talking about one way right now. People forgetting a child in a car. It happens, unfortunately.

          I think I'll leave the rest for someone else, if you don't mind...
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          • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Huh?

            Sorry. A little early for me

            For me, that's taking this debate a little deeper than necessary. Theoretically, you can drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. But you may live to 100.

            Theoretically, the human body is designed to live 150 years. But you may die tomorrow.

            I know the theoretical can work both ways. But we're talking about one way right now. People forgetting a child in a car. It happens, unfortunately.

            I think I'll leave the rest for someone else, if you don't mind...
            All condescension aside, Mike?

            Taking the debate deeper than necessary? It's picking what is convenient for
            you, perhaps.

            But that's ok.

            The logic is sound and most certainly applicable.


            Ken
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Mike,
              First, Have you read the whole thread? It doesn't seem like it.

              Second, I don't care if anyone "displays the type of reaction I think they should".
              If I read over and over that there is a reason or an excuse this has happened,like too make distractions, or the parent doesn't normally have the child,or whatever, imo thats making justification for an action that should never have happened. The welfare of your child should always be foremost on your mind until that child is old enough to participate. Its one thing to "forget" your 8 year old who when he sees his father going in the store to say"dont forget me!" Burt a child that can't fend for themselves in any manner is another story.
              Well, I probably read about half the responses (thereabouts). But the only thing I was really commenting on is like it or not, be outraged or not, this kind of thing happens. Probably has been for much longer than you and I have been walking the earth.

              I was not justifying (by how I define "justify") anything. I was merely commenting on your assessment of other people's responses (and seeming lack of outrage).

              Nothing more, nothing less.

              I agree that the welfare of your child should be the number one thing on your mind. Unfortunately it's not like that for everyone. Sad, but true.



              Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

              All condescension aside, Mike?

              Taking the debate deeper than necessary? It's picking what is convenient for
              you, perhaps.

              But that's ok.

              The logic is sound and most certainly applicable.


              Ken
              Not really Ken. It had less to do with convience than with not really getting the point you were trying to make at that time. I DID say it was early...

              I said before and I will say again (just so there's no misunderstanding)...

              I think this was a tragedy that could have and SHOULD have been avoided. Hell, I never left my kids anywhere and forgot them. But I get how it can happen to some. We're all not created equally. And some people should never have kids.

              Mike

              Oh, this "love" thing? Me too
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I know that a few of you will not agree with this. But in a majority of these cases, I don't think that it's Neglect at all. Neglect is a purposeful act of disregarding something/someone, and these are NOT purposeful acts. Now I'm not saying that the parent isn't still completely responsible. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be so fast to judge someone's character as some of you seem so comfortable doing. If you feel comfortable imputing someone's character without knowing their thoughts, then you've probably got some serious character flaws yourself.

    Sure it's an incredible tragedy for child and parent. But just as in any other fatal accident where a child is involved, I guarantee you that 99% of these parents wish they could switch places with their child.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      I know that a few of you will not agree with this. But in a majority of these cases, I don't think that it's Neglect at all. Neglect is a purposeful act of disregarding something/someone, and these are NOT purposeful acts. Now I'm not saying that the parent isn't still completely responsible. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be so fast to judge someone's character as some of you seem so comfortable doing. If you feel comfortable imputing someone's character without knowing their thoughts, then you've probably got some serious character flaws yourself.

      Sure it's an incredible tragedy for child and parent. But just as in any other fatal accident where a child is involved, I guarantee you that 99% of these parents wish they could switch places with their child.
      The definition implies it ISN'T necessarily on purpose:

      Definition of NEGLECT
      1: to give little attention or respect to : disregard
      2: to leave undone or unattended to especially through carelessness
      -- ne·glect·er noun
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      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        The definition implies it ISN'T necessarily on purpose:
        That is true...

        But in this context, and in most cases where a child is involved, the word neglect is used as a purposeful act. For example, if a mother were to leave her baby home alone and go out to the club, that would be neglect. She couldn't say that she went to the club and accidentally left her kid home - if she purposefully did it.

        In these cases we're talking about, I think that a better word would be accident. Because to me neglect means a willful act of disregarding. And that seems to be the context that's being used here. I could be wrong, but that seems to be the tone coming from some here.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Ok, how about these?

    Negligent homicide is a criminal charge brought against people who, through criminal negligence, allow others to die.

    Source: Negligent homicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Criminal negligence: careless, inattentive, neglectful, willfully blind, or in the case of gross negligence what would have been reckless in any other defendant.

    Source: Criminal negligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Disclaimer: I ain't a lawyer.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    Garyv, I have never referred to this as an act of neglect. I have, and will continue to refer to "DISTRACTION" as being a common similarity amongst these preventable/tragic deaths. I'm also not judging anyone's character here.

    There will always be unfortunate accidents. That's a fact of life. Many of these particular accidents discussed in this thread are, however, preventable.

    Maybe parents need to take an extra ten minutes to drive their child to daycare. Try putting a stuffed animal in the baby seat, remove it and place the stuffed animal in the front seat upon placing your child in it's car seat, thus you have a reminder sitting next to you that you have an infant in the back seat. Whatever it takes.

    I don't pretend to have the answers. I only suggest we eliminate as many "distractions" as possible and, do what we need to do, to remind ourselves of the precious, defenseless infant in the back seat.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I'm sorry, I can't empathize with this one. I've never been able to forget that an animal is in the car, and a lucid human can forget another human?

    I think about the time that I was actually driving a vehicle and lacked the lucidity to remember that there was a child in there, my first stop would be to the Dr.'s to tell him I was going to find alternatives to pharmaceuticals, and then I'd cut the other mind swamping device,too (cell phones)....

    I don't want people driving on the same road with me that aren't lucid enough to remember they have a baby in the car.

    Don't take this to mean that I think parent's are able to always know what kid's are doing - it's not the same argument.

    Where I grew up people weren't so drooling tranced that they didn't know if their kids were with them or not. That's not a matter of stupid and smart - that's a matter of lucidity. "Forgot" has always been a fatality to children. What's changed with that?
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I'm sorry, I can't empathize with this one...

      Where I grew up people weren't so drooling tranced that they didn't know if their kids were with them or not. That's not a matter of stupid and smart - that's a matter of lucidity. "Forgot" has always been a fatality in children. What's changed with that?
      I knew you wouldn't be sitting on the fence about this one.


      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        I knew you wouldn't be sitting on the fence about this one.


        Ken
        Yeah - zombies and drones got old for me a long time ago..........I've always loved sci fi or horror. I just don't like it when it comes off-screen at us.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I'm sorry, I can't empathize with this one. I've never been able to forget that an animal is in the car, and a lucid human can forget another human?

      I think about the time that I was actually driving a vehicle and lacked the lucidity to remember that there was a child in there, my first stop would be to the Dr.'s to tell him I was going to find alternatives to pharmaceuticals, and then I'd cut the other mind swamping device,too (cell phones)....

      I don't want people driving on the same road with me that aren't lucid enough to remember they have a baby in the car.

      Don't take this to mean that I think parent's are able to always know what kid's are doing - it's not the same argument.

      Where I grew up people weren't so drooling tranced that they didn't know if their kids were with them or not. That's not a matter of stupid and smart - that's a matter of lucidity. "Forgot" has always been a fatality to children. What's changed with that?

      It's often not a matter of lucidity at all either. If you've never had a rear facing babyseat in the back seat of your car, then you probably could never understand this phenom. You can't see the baby unless you get out of the car and go to the back. most of the time there's no denying that the baby is there because you can hear the baby. Then there's that portion of the time that they are completely asleep. And most people still remember that they're there.

      However - there are some, like a working father/mother, that will go to work with an empty car seat in the back. They get out and see the back of the car seat, but they don't walk around to the back of the car every time they arrive to work to make sure that seat is empty, because they're not normally the ones to take the kid/s. So it could be very easy for that person, if they are not the one that normally takes the kid to child-care, to fall into their normal driving routine. Especially if the child is asleep in the back and you can't see or hear them. Then arrive to work and get out see the back of the car seat like they normally do, and head into work.

      It happened to me once, just on a trip to the store, and YES I'm a "lucid human being".

      And it's not really the same at all as with animals. I've had a lot of animals as well, and have never had an animal that I didn't know was in the car with me. You MIGHT be able to compare it, if you have a dog or something that liked to fall asleep in the floor behind your seat, but I've only had one or two animals that ever liked to sleep in the car. And the one's that did always had to be in the seat or floor next to me. They never wanted to be in the back.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        However - there are some, like a working father/mother, that will go to work with an empty car seat in the back. They get out and see the back of the car seat, but they don't walk around to the back of the car every time they arrive to work to make sure that seat is empty, because they're not normally the ones to take the kid/s. So it could be very easy for that person, if they are not the one that normally takes the kid to child-care, to fall into their normal driving routine. Especially if the child is asleep in the back and you can't see or hear them. Then arrive to work and get out see the back of the car seat like they normally do, and head into work.

        It happened to me once, just on a trip to the store, and YES I'm a "lucid human being".

        And it's not really the same at all as with animals. I've had a lot of animals as well, and have never had an animal that I didn't know was in the car with me. You MIGHT be able to compare it, if you have a dog or something that liked to fall asleep in the floor behind your seat, but I've only had one or two animals that ever liked to sleep in the car. And the one's that did always had to be in the seat or floor next to me. They never wanted to be in the back.
        You see I still find that part difficult to understand, it not being their normal routine. When you are doing something that isn't your normal routine you tend to be more focused on that one thing that you are doing differently.

        My kids all had backward facing baby seats when they were very little and I still would never have forgotten that they were there in the car.

        My dog always slept in the car, he was the best dog for traveling because he would just lie down in the back and you didn't even know he was there. And yet even though he was so quiet every single time he was in the car, I still never forgot he was there.

        So even without the 'mother' instinct, I wouldn't even forget my dog in the car. I couldn't even imagine ever doing that. You go on a trip in the car, you put your child or dog in the car with you, you know they are there!
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        It's often not a matter of lucidity at all either. If you've never had a rear facing babyseat in the back seat of your car, then you probably could never understand this phenom. You can't see the baby unless you get out of the car and go to the back. most of the time there's no denying that the baby is there because you can hear the baby. Then there's that portion of the time that they are completely asleep. And most people still remember that they're there.

        However - there are some, like a working father/mother, that will go to work with an empty car seat in the back. They get out and see the back of the car seat, but they don't walk around to the back of the car every time they arrive to work to make sure that seat is empty, because they're not normally the ones to take the kid/s. So it could be very easy for that person, if they are not the one that normally takes the kid to child-care, to fall into their normal driving routine. Especially if the child is asleep in the back and you can't see or hear them. Then arrive to work and get out see the back of the car seat like they normally do, and head into work.

        It happened to me once, just on a trip to the store, and YES I'm a "lucid human being".

        And it's not really the same at all as with animals. I've had a lot of animals as well, and have never had an animal that I didn't know was in the car with me. You MIGHT be able to compare it, if you have a dog or something that liked to fall asleep in the floor behind your seat, but I've only had one or two animals that ever liked to sleep in the car. And the one's that did always had to be in the seat or floor next to me. They never wanted to be in the back.

        Gary - you are telling me the average person's brain doesn't allow them to remember something that they can't hear or see at the time? You PUT the damned baby in the car.....and because you can't see it when you get out of the car you just totally forget that you have a human in your care? WTF. Animals - sure it's the same. Animals curl up and go to sleep too - but does that mean that I forget when I get out of the car that they are there?

        Like I said - I don't buy it. If you can't remember that a child is in the car with you because it's not screaming or because you can't see it there is something VERY wrong with you. You are the child's protector and it can't trust you with THAT much responsibility and lucidity? I don't care if it's over work, cell-phone syndrome, just too busy, or if your faculty of object permanence is malfunctioning --- If you can't remember you left a kid in the car you are not lucid enough to be taking care of a kid. That is not normal - has never been normal, and will never be normal to have a memory that blanks like that, whether you are trying to justify your own lapses or not. If you brain is running that low that it's becoming a danger to your kid -- YOU need help.
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Gary - you are telling me the average person's brain doesn't allow them to remember something that they can't hear or see at the time? You PUT the damned baby in the car.....and because you can't see it when you get out of the car you just totally forget that you have a human in your care? WTF. Animals - sure it's the same. Animals curl up and go to sleep too - but does that mean that I forget when I get out of the car that they are there?

          Like I said - I don't buy it. If you can't remember that a child is in the car with you because it's not screaming or because you can't see it there is something VERY wrong with you. You are the child's protector and it can't trust you with THAT much responsibility and lucidity? I don't care if it's over work, cell-phone syndrome, just too busy, or if your faculty of object permanence is malfunctioning --- If you can't remember you left a kid in the car you are not lucid enough to be taking care of a kid. That is not normal - has never been normal, and will never be normal to have a memory that blanks like that, whether you are trying to justify your own lapses or not. If you brain is running that low that it's becoming a danger to your kid -- YOU need help.
          I love you all too - but I personally don't give a damn what you buy. It's happened to me before, and I'd put my child raising skills up against anyone's. I'm a lucid thinker, I'm not stupid, and I don't hate my kids. Jeeeesus people! The condescension in this thread is simply not tolerable. So I'm out of this one after this so that I don't put my account into jeopardy with what I'd really like to say.

          I've been in the shoes of some of these people, so you'll just never convince me that these people are bad people. There's nothing "really wrong" with them.

          What I find "really wrong" - are people that have never really been there - passing judgment. Now I'm not trying to justify anything. But I'd also NEVER be so bold as to pass judgment on someone else's character or state of mind like is going on in here. Especially if your scenario has absolutely no comparison.

          - and just so the message is clear, and you're not tempted to glaze over my entire message to parse a few of my words - I'm not passing judgment on anyone's character with that statement. I personally wouldn't judge another's character (or at least I'd try hard not to). I might think what you're doing is wrong. But because I don't have access to your thought processes, I'd never say you did what you did because there's "something wrong with you" or "you're incapable of lucid thought". That's the difference.

          I've witnessed several of these stories, and they happen to very normally "lucid" people. One was a Doctor for gripe's sake. You don't maintain your status as a doctor, or even become a doctor for that matter, with a mind that's not lucid. These are very tragic accidents that do happen to normal people. They are not stupid, they are not mentally handicapped, they are not mean or vengeful, or even bad parents.

          So you're obviously free to think that these people have something "majorly wrong" with them. I just happen to know that you're wrong. - And w/ that I'm out of this one. Have fun w/ it
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    To be honest....I can't remember my kids ever being quiet enough to forget them...
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I find it amazing how people are posting with outrageous justification for this event to occur.
    I've said it before but its sad how sick our society has become where instead of total outrage we have people making up justification for these actions.

    I have also been sitting back and waiting for someone to bring in the pet animal aspect. Almost every story I see about a pet dying under these conditions you hear screams of animal abuse.
    But with a child some seem to want "oh no,I'm a good parent, I'm just overworked and I forgot I had a child back there".
    Go figure.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I find it amazing how people are posting with outrageous justification for this event to occur.
      I've said it before but its sad how sick our society has become where instead of total outrage we have people making up justification for these actions.

      I have also been sitting back and waiting for someone to bring in the pet animal aspect. Almost every story I see about a pet dying under these conditions you hear screams of animal abuse.
      But with a child some seem to want "oh no,I'm a good parent, I'm just overworked and I forgot I had a child back there".
      Go figure.
      Well, I wouldn't go that far. The posts I am reading seem to be debating of the reality of forgetting a child in a car. I don't think it's so much a "justification" as it is people stating that they can believe it could happen to otherwise very responsible and good people. Not that it's not tragic. There is a big difference between justifying something and understanding it could happen...

      Just because people aren't displaying the type of reaction you think they should doesn't mean they are not outraged, shocked and incredulous that this happens.

      I know I am.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I find it amazing how people are posting with outrageous justification for this event to occur.
      I've said it before but its sad how sick our society has become where instead of total outrage we have people making up justification for these actions.

      I have also been sitting back and waiting for someone to bring in the pet animal aspect. Almost every story I see about a pet dying under these conditions you hear screams of animal abuse.
      But with a child some seem to want "oh no,I'm a good parent, I'm just overworked and I forgot I had a child back there".
      Go figure.
      DIDN'T YOU KNOW!!!!!????? Priority of concern...

      1. Pets
      2. Babies
      3. Toddlers
      4. Children
      5. Adults

      Mentally incapacitated, or otherwise crippled, may even be considered equal with babies, and animals in general SOMETIMES make it ahead of pets. Oh yeah, with animals, it depends where they are on the threat scale. If they are threatened with extinction, they can make it to the top of the list EVEN if they are ugly, dangerous, and seem to serve no purpose.

      This is also funny when you take into account a law and order episode I recently watched! On the SAME show, as I recall....

      They wanted to treat a 14yo girl as a CHILD! MENTALLY, she was 22!!!!
      They Wanted to treat a 19yo boy as an ADULT! MENTALLY, they implied he was about 4!!!

      LUCKILY they BOTH had extenuating circumstances. The girl was mentally/emotionally abused and in a school where she had to do a lot of work so, like many others there, she took drugs that made her quicker to act, and less tolerant.

      The BOY was given toys that he licked the paint off of. The SAME doctor he killed failed to notice the pattern, etc... and harassed him later. It turns out the paint was lead based so he was impaired the same way as the girl.

      Oh yeah, BOTH were charged with MURDER.

      Anyway, it goes to show you. If they were tried as kids, they would be out by 18, or in a couple years. If they were tried as adults, they could be there for LIFE! I wonder how many kids commit crimes figuring that the WORST that could happen is they are locked up a few years.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    There's been a handful of cases like this in my area over the years and in ALL cases the cause was an addiction of some type (ie...alcohol, drugs)

    The OBSESSION for that next high outweighs all sense of reasoning for a serious addict. Even when it involves the lives of your children...

    Just sayin'
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

      There's been a handful of cases like this in my area over the years and in ALL cases the cause was an addiction of some type (ie...alcohol, drugs)

      The OBSESSION for that next high outweighs all sense of reasoning for a serious addict. Even when it involves the lives of your children...

      Just sayin'
      This is true. I have dealt with enough of this with people in my life and it's sad, and maddening. Especially with kids involved.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The ones I've seen here were not addiction cases- these were people family oriented and responsible parents.

      It's not that I don't think it's horrible - I can't imagine living through something like that. I can't imagine doing that myself - but neither could the bank manager or the doctor's wife it happened to.

      There have been studies that prove this "disconnect in thinking" has roots in the way our brains function in certain circumstances. Knowing the results of those studies, and knowing the background of people this has happened to here - I just think we can do better than condemning the parents as neglectful.

      When our response is only that we wouldn't do that because we are good parents and we don't forget our children - we ignore the science that says it can happen and is a brain function not a stupid mistake.

      That's why I say rather than feeling superior in the knowledge that WE wouldn't do this - it would be better to push for a safety feature that might stop this from happening to other people. There is no downside to saving a child. It's human to think bad things happen due to the mistakes and stupidity of others - until it happens to us or to someone we care about.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Well, I wouldn't go that far. The posts I am reading seem to be debating of the reality of forgetting a child in a car. I don't think it's so much a "justification" as it is people stating that they can believe it could happen to otherwise very responsible and good people. Not that it's not tragic. There is a big difference between justifying something and understanding it could happen...

        Just because people aren't displaying the type of reaction you think they should doesn't mean they are not outraged, shocked and incredulous that this happens.

        I know I am.

        Mike,
        First, Have you read the whole thread? It doesn't seem like it.

        Second, I don't care if anyone "displays the type of reaction I think they should".
        If I read over and over that there is a reason or an excuse this has happened,like too make distractions, or the parent doesn't normally have the child,or whatever, imo thats making justification for an action that should never have happened. The welfare of your child should always be foremost on your mind until that child is old enough to participate. Its one thing to "forget" your 8 year old who when he sees his father going in the store to say"dont forget me!" Burt a child that can't fend for themselves in any manner is another story.




        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        The ones I've seen here were not addiction cases- these were people family oriented and responsible parents.

        It's not that I don't think it's horrible - I can't imagine living through something like that. I can't imagine doing that myself - but neither could the bank manager or the doctor's wife it happened to.

        There have been studies that prove this "disconnect in thinking" has roots in the way our brains function in certain circumstances. Knowing the results of those studies, and knowing the background of people this has happened to here - I just think we can do better than condemning the parents as neglectful.

        When our response is only that we wouldn't do that because we are good parents and we don't forget our children - we ignore the science that says it can happen and is a brain function not a stupid mistake.

        That's why I say rather than feeling superior in the knowledge that WE wouldn't do this - it would be better to push for a safety feature that might stop this from happening to other people. There is no downside to saving a child. It's human to think bad things happen due to the mistakes and stupidity of others - until it happens to us or to someone we care about.
        Kay,
        I agree that it would be a good idea to put in a safety feature that might stop this from happening.

        As far as:
        "It's human to think bad things happen due to the mistakes and stupidity of others - until it happens to us or to someone we care about."

        That's a very true statement,but its not the event that matters as much as the consequences.

        I dropped a glass and broke it.I was stupid and clumsy.
        I left a child in the car. I was stupid and forgetful.

        Which action has the worst consequences?
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


        we ignore the science that says it can happen and is a brain function not a stupid mistake.

        That's why I say rather than feeling superior in the knowledge that WE wouldn't do this - it would be better to push for a safety feature that might stop this from happening to other

        Kay, why are you so stuck on assuming you know the feelings of other people
        better than they do?

        That seems to suggest an air of superiority, does it not? But it is ok if you
        want to feel that way.

        How many times has this happened? What's the percentage of the population
        this has happened to?

        Sure, a safety feature will be great. But on the other hand, it would be one
        more thing encouraging people do use their brains less and take less responsibility;
        to become more reliant on technology because someone was paying less attention
        to a human life.

        The fact that the percentage is probably very small suggests that most people
        are making damn sure they don't kill their kids and the scientific opinions you like
        to cite are not the norm.


        Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

      There's been a handful of cases like this in my area over the years and in ALL cases the cause was an addiction of some type (ie...alcohol, drugs)

      The OBSESSION for that next high outweighs all sense of reasoning for a serious addict. Even when it involves the lives of your children...

      Just sayin'
      This is clearly "child endangerment".
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kay,
    I would love to see the sources of your studies about the brain behavior.
    Having said that, my own personal opinion is that todays society finds a condition and/or disease for anything and everything.
    I also find that todays society likes to find an excuse or justification or whatever term you would like to use for bad behavior, the parameters of which far exceeds the scope of this discussion.

    For those of you that would like to explore (in a fun and interesting way) the way the mind works,I'd suggest vising this site. And if you enjoy the site, get the book.
    Mind Hacks
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    By the way, I still love you all!
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      By the way, I still love you all!
      I... I love you too, man.

      And I even love KAY.


      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
        I used to be in charge of safety at my workplace that held the largest collection of SARS viruses in the world and that also had its fair share of dangerous work and accidents. Therefore I am conversant with internationally recognized quality safty systems based on ISO 9001 and ISO15190

        Humans are fallible and everyone is different. Therefore, the ideal safety should take this into account. Accordingly, when an accident occurs,we should look at is 1. engineering, 2. Protocol 3. Human factor in that order.

        For example, I was involved in a serious workplace accident where a worker was scalded by boiling media. She did not wear appropraite protective clothing and opened the oven before it had cooled down properly. Following a thourough investigation by a number of parties, we came to conclusion that no one should have been able to open the oven at such a high temperature. The manufacturer agreed with this and told us they will make modifcations. We thought that our protocol was essentially alright emphasized the need to wear full protective clothing. Lastly, we gave further safety training to the operator who injured herself.

        We can look at the problem in this thread in the same manner.

        1. Engineering - this would clearly be the ideal manner to deal with it, although there seems to be many issues involved. If at the end of the day it is not feasible because of cost or otherwise, then perhaps we will have to leave it.

        2. Protocol - this is really up to the individual parent. They could have some sort of reminder that their child is in the car. This could be done through public education.

        3. Human - this is the most difficult to deal with. Again each person is made differently with different amounts of intelligence, memory, EQ, temperatment, distractability etc.

        With many accidents that I have looked, most of them involved some sort of human error. When it was possible to improve things through engineering changes, we usually found that it was too expensive to carry out.

        Personally, I do feel that humans are humans and dangerious lapses do occur. There also seems to be N. American / European divide on personal responsibility. For example, with the Madeline McCain case, I strongly feel there was a clear cut of case of negligence on the part of the parents, and yet the British press managed to turn this into a tirade against the Portugese

        Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Derek - that's not the same thing as forgetting you have a child with you.

    Kay - I have no clue where you found that but I'd like the link if you have it. Nowhere in my cognitive sciences did I ever hear of anything like you have described. The closest would be that we shut down from over-stimulus after awhile - that's why I site cell phones as culprits. It's not normal to be wired for contact 24/7 and being so is effecting people's brains in a lot of ways that they shouldn't want it effected.

    There is also a "working memory" - -and when you have an ongoing task and priority....um....baby in car should be a priority........that working memory should be....um....working.......and you should very automatically remember that you have your child with you.

    I see nothing normal about this type of thing......and if it is becoming normal then people need to start watching what is going on because as far as I've ever seen, heard, or researched - that is NOT normal to shut down on a priority like that. It's normal to blow little stuff - but not something that should be that central to your conscious priorities.
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    • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Derek - that's not the same thing as forgetting you have a child with you.
      Sal, the child does not not deserve to die whether the parent is at fault or not. Therefore if something simple and economical can be done, then perhaps we should consider it.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Derek, Not Sal or anyone else is arguing a child should die,quite the contrary.I think all of us on both sides of this discussion will agree if any safety measure can be implemented that will save any life ,it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Oh yeah - I am all FOR child safety. If it takes a device to assure it - then a device is what it takes. I am just completely puzzled why people are needing devices to do what they could normally do on their own up til a few years ago.

    Gary - nobody said these people are bad people. I'm saying that, for many reasons, I can not believe this is a normal brain shut down. There are other things going on with people lately that I've never seen before either -- something is wrong. In the last few years I have seen that people are now wandering into roads to cross them without so much as a glance to see if cars are coming. Do you also think that is normal? I never saw that type of behavior before the last few years. We just had a couple pedestrians killed up the road from us last week because they walked straight out in front of an oncoming vehicle. It's happening with frightening frequency now. Look at the drivers killing people because of cell phones and texting. They don't even NOTICE they are driving any more. How about all the people that are dying because they drive off into the wilderness in the winter without any supplies - thinking that the cell phone will save them in a pinch. They don't realize any more that having a cell phone doesn't mean that someone can get to you in a blizzard even if they know damned well you are there.

    Oh - and for people who keep throwing Doctors in our faces as examples. I hate to inform you that doctors are actually mortal humans like the rest of us - they just happen to have an intense education in a field or two. They also have mental problems, physical illnesses, relationship issues -- and everything else that happens to other humans. And they DO make mistakes - sometimes extremely costly ones. People need to quit deifying doctors. Your life might someday depend on the understanding that your doctor is just a human, not a god.

    People are getting so used to being connected that they don't seem to have the ability to function normally. That is what concerns me - not one incidence here and there - it's the fact that there are so many of these types of mental lapses converging.
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      There are other things going on with people lately that I've never seen before either -- something is wrong. In the last few years I have seen that people are now wandering into roads to cross them without so much as a glance to see if cars are coming. Do you also think that is normal? I never saw that type of behavior before the last few years. We just had a couple pedestrians killed up the road from us last week because they walked straight out in front of an oncoming vehicle. It's happening with frightening frequency now.

      People are getting so used to being connected that they don't seem to have the ability to function normally. That is what concerns me - not one incidence here and there - it's the fact that there are so many of these types of mental lapses converging.
      Sal, we have also seen an increase in pedestrians being killed. More so in the urban areas. The major contributing factor - MP3 players.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Mike,Mike,Mike,

    Its all good!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Pettit
    Agreed: I can't imagine how a parent could survive that kind of guilt.
    However, the "back-seat" law saves hundreds of lives every year, compared with small number of deaths which are happening because of the law.
    The real law in operation here is the Law of Unintended Consequences. Seatbelt laws don't save every life. They save a major proportion of lives.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I have no clue where you found that but I'd like the link if you have it. Nowhere in my cognitive sciences did I ever hear of anything like you have described. The closest would be that we shut down from over-stimulus after awhile - that's why I site cell phones as culprits.
      Quite a bit of the study results I read were alluded to in the link to a multi-page article that was provided by someone early on in this thread. I've tried to find the article that made such an impression on me but I think I read it in a journal in a waiting room. It's been some time ago - but it was a fascinating read about how the brain works and how at times we can be fooled by our own mind.

      I don't understand why my comments would seem arrogant - I'm certainly not one saying "I'm a better parent so it would never happen to me". I agree cell phones can play a part - but also the stress of thinking about jobs or schedules or anything that causes you to lose focus on "now" is a culprit.

      As for number - the estimates I've read 2 dozen children a year die in closed cars in these conditions. However, I've also read there is no national database (or at least there wasn't) so the numbers may not be accurate.

      I've never had this happen to a friend but I had met the bank manager it happened to last year. Nice - organized, smart. personable - with pictures of his family on his desk and wall. Not a doofus or an uncaring parent - but it happened to him.

      I'm reminded of a crossroad that led to some deep thinking when I was a teen. It was a two way stop and with curves near the intersection (out in the country) of the non-busy roads it was the site of many accidents.

      When the third person was killed at that intersection - the state announced it was placing a four way stop to avoid future accidents. I couldn't understand why it took 3 separate deaths to make adding stop signs "logical". Were 2 deaths insignificant and 4 deaths too much risk?
      The same thing happened at a railroad crossing in town. Several cars and trucks had been hit over the years but not until two sisters were killed were flashing lights installed at the crossing. I wondered why you had to have proof something was deadly before reducing an obvious risk.

      When I see something like this that keeps happening every summer, I wonder what the number must be before it becomes logical to at least try to add a safety system to prevent it.

      Maybe the issue seems bigger to me because it happens so often in this hot climate where I live. What would be a stupid parental error in a northern state is deadly here.

      I should also point out that for every death in a closed car here there are several instances where a passerby noticed the child and called police. The danger is well known here and local police will immediately break a window to quickly remove a pet or child from a locked car.

      Interesting discussion - if I ever find that article again, I'll post it here.

      kay
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