China halts shipments of RE minerals to US

by HeySal
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I can't believe our leaders were stupid enough to allow us to become dependent on them in the first place - we have the minerals - why weren't they making processors instead of selling our souls to China?
We're screwed again. Thanks congress. I don't wanna learn Mandarin.

China Halts Shipments to U.S. of Tech-Crucial Minerals | LiveScience Etc.
  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Cool - Tit for Tat now we can stop buying all their cheap, sub-standard crap that falls apart.

    Maybe stop all the sweetheart duty-free deals that allow them to undermine our own industries and put so many US companies out of business .

    Hey! Maybe we can even have our own industries back and use our own resources.

    Now here is a novel idea - BUY AMERICAN!
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Cool - Tit for Tat now we can stop buying all their cheap, sub-standard crap that falls apart.

      Maybe stop all the sweetheart duty-free deals that allows them to undermine our own industries and put so many US companies out of business .

      Hey! Maybe we can even have our own industries back and use our own resources.

      Now here is a novel idea - BUY AMERICAN!
      I think they did this to retaliate in the first place because we were starting to up tariffs etc. And buy American is a great idea....except - we have no processors for RE minerals and we have to get the gov to straighten up their acts and get the RE mines permitted to open again - it was the ineptitude of 29 different agencies that shut them down.

      Until we can get the stupidity stopped and the mines open - and processors built, we're screwed - you won't be buying ANY technology that is US made until that is done if we can't import the processed minerals until we can get our own sources working for us.
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      Sal
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I'm confused - didn't something similar happen not too long ago with the same rare earth minerals?
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I'm confused - didn't something similar happen not too long ago with the same rare earth minerals?
          Yep - China did the same thing to Japan, they quit shipping. They know they have the edge on the RE mineral supply and are starting to use it against anyone who ticks them off.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    There will be trade-offs - with some of this processing (like all our untapped oil) they claim it is the environmentalists that are preventing us from doing a number of things on our own soil.

    We all know environmentalism is critically important, however, if we are literally 'between a rock and a hard place' (pun intended lol) we have to give it up one way or the other.

    I wonder if in the interim while we drag our feet as usual and do million dollar studies if we can't buy the materials from some other country that China still does biz with?
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I wonder if in the interim while we drag our feet as usual and do million dollar studies if we can't buy the materials from some other country that China still does biz with?
      There aren't a lot of resources for RE minerals, Pat - that's why they are Rare Earth Minerals. We could get them from Afghanistan, though....hmmmm. Let's ponder that one. It was recently announced that RE minerals were discovered there....and they were - about 2 decades ago. And in a pinch we could open our own mine -- but it's the processors that are going to be the krink in that armor. The processors aren't all that easy (or cheap) to build. We can start talking about interim decade at this point.

      Incidentally - USAID is funding mineral and mining education in Afghanistan right now. I would presume the plan is to use their resources and put up processors there instead of opening up our own mines and exploration. Everyone is gonna be watching that war way hard in the near future.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        I like this concept! A Two-Fer - give them income that can replace their reliance on Opium poppies (Heroin)!

        Cool -

        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


        Incidentally - USAID is funding mineral and mining education in Afghanistan right now. I would presume the plan is to use their resources and put up processors there instead of opening up our own mines and exploration. Everyone is gonna be watching that war way hard in the near future.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        There aren't a lot of resources for RE minerals, Pat - that's why they are Rare Earth Minerals. We could get them from Afghanistan, though....hmmmm. Let's ponder that one. It was recently announced that RE minerals were discovered there....and they were - about 2 decades ago. And in a pinch we could open our own mine -- but it's the processors that are going to be the krink in that armor. The processors aren't all that easy (or cheap) to build. We can start talking about interim decade at this point.

        Incidentally - USAID is funding mineral and mining education in Afghanistan right now. I would presume the plan is to use their resources and put up processors there instead of opening up our own mines and exploration. Everyone is gonna be watching that war way hard in the near future.
        I hope this isn't the plan. It will take at least 20 years to build the bridges and railroads needed BEFORE any serious mines can be dug. And that's with a major commitment to rebuild Afghanistan that would rival the Marshall Plan.

        This doesn't take into account the political situation in Afghanistan or the corruption and need to bribe tribal leaders, making 20 years a pipe dream.

        If China doesn't want to sell the the #1 and #3 economies in the World and China is #2...I'll call their bluff. They have to sell it to someone. Which is probably what we're really doing with Afghanistan, creating leverage with China and China is trying to create their own leverage.

        Plus, if China hurts the US economy too badly, we can't pay them back. I'm sure they are aware of this. If we hurt, they'll be hurting. One leason I learned at a very young age is not to PO people that owe you money.

        In the meantime, recycling seems like a good place to start, and South America is another option. I think it's Argentina (or Chile) that has all sorts of lithium. They are far closer than Afghanistan to being able to produce lithium, but they still need a lot of infrastructure built.

        But if China closes their market, the price will go up, and it will make building the infrastructure in South America profitable.

        Let's be clear, China does not have a monopoly on minerals. They simply have the infrastructure now to mine it. If they hold out too much, they'll cut their own throats and make it profitable to look in other places. And I don't think China is stupid.

        In poker terms, China is playing with "dead money". I'll see their bluff and raise them a tarriff or two...
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  • Profile picture of the author menj
    China is holding the world hostage with their rare earth resource, what else can be said?
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by menj View Post

      China is holding the world hostage with their rare earth resource, what else can be said?

      Nuke 'em. That's what.


      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author JustinDupre
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        Nuke 'em. That's what.


        Ken
        Hahah indeed! Best reply so far
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    We can still be both self-reliant and have something to trade for RE Minerals.

    USGS Release: 3 to 4.3 Billion Barrels of Technically Recoverable Oil Assessed in North Dakota and Montana’s Bakken Formation—25 Times More Than 1995 Estimate— (4/10/2008 2:25:36 PM)


    ."The Bakken Formation estimate is larger than all other current USGS oil assessments of the lower 48 states and is the largest "continuous" oil accumulation ever assessed by the USGS. A "continuous" oil accumulation means that the oil resource is dispersed throughout a geologic formation rather than existing as discrete, localized occurrences. The next largest "continuous" oil accumulation in the U.S. is in the Austin Chalk of Texas and Louisiana, with an undiscovered estimate of 1.0 billions of barrels of technically recoverable oil."
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Actually, it's Bolivia, not Chile or Argentina:

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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I don't know how accurate this is, but I read (somewhere) that China
    did this because of an investigation prompted by complaints of a US
    labor union over something about unfair labor practices related to China.

    So, OB announced an investigation about it. China did their thing.

    I've also read in several places (don't remember lol) that a number of
    US resources are very quickly turning their attention to address measures
    for alleviating the dependence on China for RE minerals. Some response
    is better than nothing. And it's not just in the US, the whole world is
    witnessing this and other countries are doing the same.

    I think China kinda stepped in it between the fisherman and RE exports
    and now this over probably a legitimate grievance about unfair labor
    practices.

    All in all, I do think this will escalate before it gets better. Speak
    Mandarin? Naw... more like the opposite if push comes to shove.

    NASA is saying they discovered Gold and water on the moon. I guess
    there wouldn't be RE minerals there, though. Unless there are and then
    they'll be RM minerals.

    I'll take a tour on the Moon to work maintenance in a rare moon plant.
    As long as there's hi speed internet. No dial-up please.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Actually China had officially denied stopping shipments to the US, Germany and the rest of Europe. It is completely possible that they did it unofficially to warn the US over investigation of their Green technology industry (which relies a lot of rare earths). However, it is difficult to see how Germany and other European countries comes into this.

    Morover, they have been cutting exports openly for the past few years. The export quota was this year had been reduced by 40%. Much of this is due to a genuine cut back in production as they closed hundreds of mines for safe and environmental reasons as well as poor profitability. The aim was to consolidate the whole industry under a single state owned company that can control production and prices better. So basically they wanted to push up the prices as well as improve their mining industry at the same time.

    China's own needs for rare metals will exceed current production in a few years. So they don't need or actually want to export anything. Moroever since this had been going on for a few years quite openly, they don't really see what the fuss is about. There was ample notice for other countries to look elsewhere but the truth is they haven't really done so. It is not as if US, Europe and Japan do not have monopolies of their own. For example Intel and AMD chips, as well as Boeing and Airbus. So basically I think this is just overblown. Rare earth metals are not as important today as people think, it is just many tomorrow technologies will rely on them. If the rest of world are concerned, they should have started doing something a few years ago. After all, 65% of reserves are found outside China.


    Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I think we're all aware that the US should have begun preparing for
    this many years ago.

    For some, it may not be about the halting of shipments, it just makes
    China look a little less than glowing when it appears to happen over
    issues that the Chinese govt is not known for caring about such as
    the fate of a single fisherman, or an investigation.

    Many countries have their monopolies, Derek, we know.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Ken, there may be issues with Japan and the US, but again I don't see how Germany and others are involved and subject to an unofficical embargo as well. In any case, it is near the end of the year when the export quotas are nearly used up.

    The main issue with the US now is the Chinese currency. The US and other countries wants it to appreciate rapidly by up to 40% but there is no way they will accept it. There is a real chance that a very damaging trade war may arise as a result. Basically, everything with China is negotiable but not their trade interests.

    Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    There are many areas of conflict @ US vs China = North Korea, Japan, Taiwan, trade imbalance, human rights, US debt, currency, and now rare earth minerals.

    I really pray that relations will improve as it is in both countries' best interests of course -

    I hope as we always have so far, we will all get through it with the least pain - together.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Yeah - China and RE -- We should just shut down Walmarts and see how the rest of their industry goes if the US isn't buying their poison laced crap products for awhile.

    We only need processors - we have the rest of it down. We were mining lithium. There was a questionable incident of some sort (can't remember what) that later turned out to be nothing to do with the mine - but 29 agencies converged and they couldn't get things straight, messed up everything, and the mine ended up being shut down - there's already a ready mine, means of transport. All we need is the processor.

    Idaho just quit outsourcing silver production and has a sweet deal for anyone or company that will build a processor (probably a done deal by now). If we do that with RE I would bet the processors are up and running in less than half the time than if we let our inept gov do it.

    As far as Afghanistan - they are further along than we are being told. Those minerals have been known about for 2 decades. Gary Bowsersox has been over there for at least 3 decades. The media release that the minerals were just found is all propaganda bunk - we knew they were there before we went to war with them. At least the rockhound crowds did. (The emeralds are nice, too.)

    There is also heavy research into replacement minerals and synthetics. I would think that China wouldn't want to get too cocky over their mineral supply. For one thing, those supplies can be stripped, for another - if someone discovers a way around them, their hold is done and if they start a cold war over something that someone finds a way around, that cold war is going to be much colder for them than for anyone else.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think when I did some research on this when it first came up with Japan what I found was the US has some rare earth minerals and used to mine them.

      It became cheaper/easier to buy from China. It's a quiet stomp of the foot on China's part - maybe to remind some of us what to expect in the future if we don't get our own heads on straight.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Here's a good article about RE minerals, uses in industry, and
    new research being done to work around using RE.

    The article is in MIT's Technology Review.

    Smoke this Bob Marley, Beijing

    "Working alongside the Nebraska researchers in the same ARPA-E program, researchers at the University of Delaware are advancing nanocomposites that use far less of the valuable rare-earth materials... "


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    From Molycorp's website:

    "Fortunately, the U.S. has one of the world’s largest and richest Rare Earth deposits at Molycorp Minerals’ facility in Mountain Pass, California. At Mountain Pass we are producing certain Green Elements and plans are in place to bring the facility back into full production following an extensive modernization and expansion project. With appropriate federal assistance for research, development and capital costs, Molycorp Minerals is prepared to move forward to reestablish domestic manufacturing capacity on an expedited basis."

    Molycorp Minerals - The Rare Earths Company

    Molycorp on Twitter - Say hello

    Considering the billions that our G has pissed away on bailouts,
    wouldn't ya think they would throw something to these guys?

    But, on page two of the MIT article it does mention some legislation
    re the RE issue.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I didn't realize we had a processor there (Mountain Pass) - there are refineries in TN and TX for some of the minerals, too.

    Yttrium may still present a problem, though - we've never mined that let alone refined or processed. I'm not even sure how much we HAVE to mine. There are around 15 to 17 RE minerals at M. Pass, so yttrium might be one of them. I don't know if we have it, and if we do if we can refine and process it. I'll have to check it out in the next day or two.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Way back in 76-77, I worked on a B52 base and specifically on
    a video panaramic ECM receiver. It used YIG filters for RF filtering.
    YIG = Yttrium-Iron-Garnet.

    Secret squirrel stuff, back then.


    Ken
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