Has this gone far enough yet?

LeeLee

14 years ago

Dear Lord I hadn't thought of the kids. This is perv paradise.

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amo992

14 years ago

This is ridiculous.

If it were anywhere else, it would be nothing short of sexual assault.

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HeySal

14 years ago

It IS sexual assault. They didn't even have the decency to remove him from public. The only thing that allowed them to do this was their stated "authority" and the parent standing there and refusing to disallow it -- calling for the police and issuing a formal charge of rape. 2nd degree rape.

Think back to that age........how would you feel being stripped down in front of a room of strangers? This is the most frightening thing I have seen in a damned long time.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

It IS sexual assault. They didn't even have the decency to remove him from public. The only thing that allowed them to do this was their stated "authority" and the parent standing there and refusing to disallow it -- calling for the police and issuing a formal charge of rape. 2nd degree rape.

Think back to that age........how would you feel being stripped down in front of a room of strangers? This is the most frightening thing I have seen in a damned long time.

I "ONLY" have to take my shoes and belt off, and remove EVERY item that isn't clothing, and I hate THAT!

They are REQUIRED to give you the option to do it PRIVATELY! I have heard that some TSA agents are SQUEEZING parts on women! They could get WILDLY SUED! AND, If they do that on males, or get too over zealous, etc..., it could hurt, and they could end up on a NASTY CRIMINAL AND NASTY CIVIL suit!

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

INCREDIBLE! They actually had him STRIP! Did he take off his PANTS also, while than woman watched!!!!!!! The TSA is one of those stupid groups that basically considers themselves SAFE and EXEMPT from ANY laws, etc.... In the 70s, the BIGGEST concern was that film could be overdeveloped in xrayed baggage. They apparently later solved that problem. SERIOUSLY!

Prior to the 70s I think they basically had people walk onto planes. They started xraying carryon baggage, and checking for metal because of hijackers. They ALSO instituted a cooperation rule. Like they did with banks, they setup a rule that pilots should OBEY hijackers! The idea was that the plane would be diverted, the hijacker would get off, and arrangements would be made to get everyone to their destination. They had NO idea that that would be used 30 years later to make the plane a WEAPON. It was OK, until 2001. The US government did what ALL of UBLs people could NOT! But UBL WILL take credit for it!

Steve

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Kay King

14 years ago

calling for the police and issuing a formal charge of rape. 2nd degree rape.

And then the person looks like an idiot - because there was no rape of any degree. There was no full strip search. But - there doesn't need to be because what is happening is bad enough without sensationalizing each incident.

I hate these new policies - and I won't tolerate them myself becuase I will no longer fly as long as the TSA is doing this.

But - the reaction from the public needs to be disapproval and outrage without going into the realm of making charges that make the people complaining look like zealots.

The standard response is "we can't profile people" - maybe it's time we started re-examining the idea of profiling???

I agree this is stupidity at the highest level and is government sponsored stupidity. However, I think the arguments against it must in the realm of logic. Calls for "call the police" would do what? What they are doing is legal right now - what we need to work at is making illegal.

Anyone wonder WHY this is happening NOW? Think about it - do you think it's accidental that this policy started just after shipments were found that contained explosives? Never mind that these were baggage items (which still aren't being fully checked) - take the focus off that by searching people.

It's an old trick - and we shouldn't fall for it.

kay

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

And then the person looks like an idiot - because there was no rape of any degree. There was no full strip search. But - there doesn't need to be because what is happening is bad enough without sensationalizing each incident.

I hate these new policies - and I won't tolerate them myself becuase I will no longer fly as long as the TSA is doing this.

But - the reaction from the public needs to be disapproval and outrage without going into the realm of making charges that make the people complaining look like zealots.

The standard response is "we can't profile people" - maybe it's time we started re-examining the idea of profiling???

I agree this is stupidity at the highest level and is government sponsored stupidity. However, I think the arguments against it must in the realm of logic. Calls for "call the police" would do what? What they are doing is legal right now - what we need to work at is making illegal.

Anyone wonder WHY this is happening NOW? Think about it - do you think it's accidental that this policy started just after shipments were found that contained explosives? Never mind that these were baggage items (which still aren't being fully checked) - take the focus off that by searching people.

It's an old trick - and we shouldn't fall for it.

kay

Kay - they removed clothing revealing skin - and It didn't seem like there was anything consensual about it - and the kid's a minor........that is 2nd degree rape. I couldn't see if the pants came down - but look again....I thought I saw the hand go into the front of the kids pants. I might be wrong.......but I hope daddy grows a set and sues that company blind and the guy that perpetrated that incident.

When gov feels it's okay to go this far with our freedom and rights - it's time to hit the roof over EVERY person they touch. "Reasonable" gets us where? Where is that again? In lines to be strip searched? Oh yeah. No - it's time for sheer anger.

I worked in a crisis center for a couple of years. I can tell you what they just did to that kid psychologically. Daddy whined and did nothing -- victim attitudes already.

Do ya remember when bosses could sqeeze your T & A and fire you if you complained -- or threaten your job if you didn't put out? We're right back to those days - only it's not just women that are victims this time around. It's anyone they want to target -- the kid was just a show of their "authority". Nobody can be stupid and naive enough to find doing that to that boy a security measure. Were they really scared of that kid blowing people up? If they were interested in security they'd at least be pulling the people out of line that might actually be a terrorist. Not humiliating a young boy publically to show everyone that they have the power to do anything they want to us.

This is disgusting on steroids. I've already send my note to TSA that I won't be flying when I go to my dad's next time.

Slavery is NOT security. It's a little bit moot of a point to worry about how we look being too angry to act cordial about this crap. I'd rather make sure I don't end up looking foolish standing around doing nothing for my self when some guy grabs a boob. I'd like to see people loud enough about it to maybe make them change over to REAL security instead of remaining nothing more than a pervert patrol.

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amo992

14 years ago

It's interesting that I was learning about Milgram's experiment just as all of this TSA nonsense became big news.

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LeeLee

14 years ago

Reminds me of when I landed in Jordan in the 80s. Egypt also. They had a strip search policy enforced at their will. At least it was behind a curtain with a woman for a woman. The rifles pointing at the crowd from the balcony above were hardly comforting. Hard to believe back then a woman traveling alone to those countries was an oddity that caught the attention of everyone in site distance.

Now we are those countries.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by LeeLee

Reminds me of when I landed in Jordan in the 80s. Egypt also. They had a strip search policy enforced at their will. At least it was behind a curtain with a woman for a woman. The rifles pointing at the crowd from the balcony above were hardly comforting. Hard to believe back then a woman traveling alone to those countries was an oddity that caught the attention of everyone in site distance.

Now we are those countries.

Actually, women in a lot of those countries aren't generally allowed to travel alone, etc... Remember when there was that stink in a muslim country about women DRIVING in the US military?

Steve

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Greg guitar

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Actually, women in a lot of those countries aren't generally allowed to travel alone, etc... Remember when there was that stink in a muslim country about women DRIVING in the US military?

Steve

Could you help me out with what countries you mean when you say "a lot of those countries".

I think the country you're talking about is probably Saudi Arabia, where women have been pelted with stones for daring to drive. I believe they are unfortunately also the largest recipient of foreign aid from the US, or is that Turkey, where being a woman isn't exactly a great advantage either?

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

Could you help me out with what countries you mean when you say "a lot of those countries".

I think the country you're talking about is probably Saudi Arabia, where women have been pelted with stones for daring to drive. I believe they are unfortunately also the largest recipient of foreign aid from the US, or is that Turkey, where being a woman isn't exactly a great advantage either?

Muslim countries. A FEW, of which I believe jordan is one, are relatively permissive, but some basically treat women as little more than property. Heck, females are apparently often not allowed to go as far in school, if at all.

It really is a shame.

Steve

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Ken Durham

14 years ago

The resources put into world security has to be phenomenal......beyond comprehension or concern for any one person, I would imagine....

I wonder, what would happen if all of this energy and money spent fighting the bad guys, was put towards creating peace for a time? Even for a month....
Stuff like fulfilling why people are criminals and why people need to do drugs. Why people want to blow up planes and what we can do to make it right. What if they tried ensuring that all people had a meal, a job, a roof over their heads, and were allowed to worship whatever they desire, be it a man on a throne or a shoe with a pig's tail...without each other getting pissed off.....

All of this policy and war and my god is better than your god makes absolutely no sense and is some of the most illogical bull**** that has ever existed in the history of man. We are supposed to be an ""advanced" civilization... not witch hunts and stonings....we already tried that...it didn't work..... we're supposed to learn from our mistakes...
I just don't get it...there just seems to be such an absence of logic in it all....

I dare say it would take a very creative writer to dream up all of the current world affairs, if they did not exist.... This author would certainly have a very sick and perverted mind and in dire need of psychiatric treatment...

For my say on it, there should be no need for any of this. I was always in the thinking that one should fight the cause and not just the symptoms...war being a symptom... but what do I know? I'm just a sheep.....

PS: I agree with boycotting flying if possible

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Durham

The resources put into world security has to be phenomenal......beyond comprehension or concern for any one person, I would imagine....

I wonder, what would happen if all of this energy and money spent fighting the bad guys, was put towards creating peace for a time? Even for a month....

Name just ONE viable thing that could be done! Just ONE!

Stuff like fulfilling why people are criminals

GREED, STUPIDITY, to BULLY!

why people need to do drugs.

GREED, STUPIDITY, DESIRE TO ESCAPE!

Why people want to blow up planes

GREED, STUPIDITY, to BULLY!

what we can do to make it right.

Name ONE VIABLE IDEA!!!!!!!!

What if they tried ensuring that all people had a meal, a job, a roof over their heads

YEAH RIGHT! STEAL FROM MILLIONS to try to help a billion, and succeed ONLY in exacerbating the problem!

and were allowed to worship whatever they desire, be it a man on a throne or a shoe with a pig's tail...without each other getting pissed off.....

ALREADY done in the US! SATANISTS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS, and YES, MUSLIMS, are allowed to worship along with HINDUS, BUDDISTS, etc....

[

All of this policy and war and my god is better than your god makes absolutely no sense and is some of the most illogical bull**** that has ever existed in the history of man. We are supposed to be an ""advanced" civilization... not witch hunts and stonings....we already tried that...it didn't work..... we're supposed to learn from our mistakes...
I just don't get it...there just seems to be such an absence of logic in it all....

HEY, that is THEIR story, etc.... WE aren't doing that!

I dare say it would take a very creative writer to dream up all of the current world affairs, if they did not exist.... This author would certainly have a very sick and perverted mind and in dire need of psychiatric treatment...

YEP, it is SICK!

I was always in the thinking that one should fight the cause and not just the symptoms......

RIGHT, I AGREE! Ideally, this would mean taking all the muslim kids, bringing them up in a reasonable environment and avoiding any of the garbage propaganda that is really just BRAINWASHING, and somehow sanitize the koran to ALSO avoid that, and get all the clerics to tow the line. ALAS, that is impractical would, short term, cause MAJOR fallout, and people would be screaming about brownshirts, since the nazis tried to do the same sort of thing to get Christians to follow them.

Don't go blaming income, etc... Some of the culprits are possibly richer than EVERY member on this forum PUT TOGETHER! Some have earlier made the TOP TEN list on the worlds richest men.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

HEYSAL is right. This IS a violation of the 4th amendment! It is UNREASONABLE search and seizure! NO seizure you say? BULL!!!!!! They technically SIEZED all those drinks, toothpaste, etc... I have had.

HELL, I am a GREAT security risk. If they announced I was guilty of whatever crime, THOUSANDS would be shocked. And I am a frequent flyer and on DOMESTIC business and a US citizen with NO police record. You would think they would cut ME some slack.

WHAT AM I THINKING!?!?!? Those jerks are associated with the jerks that kept BASHING my foot in the door frame SEVERAL TIMES trying to get a wheelchair through a LARGE opening, as I screamed that it was happening! ALSO, the jerks that rammed ANOTHER persons chair against my foot and told me to move out of the handicapped area that I was in because I was put there because I at the time was OBVIOUSLY handicapped!

I WISH I could laugh at the comedies that show such things, but it has happened to ME!
Frankly, it is DANGEROUS to have the airport people pushyou around. You COULD LITERALLY end up with a broken foot or leg.

Steve

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Ken Durham

14 years ago

yup, you're right..... just a pipe dream.....
science, logic, and advancement will never win out over greed, ego, and stupidity

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Kay King

14 years ago

I couldn't see if the pants came down - but look again....I thought I saw the hand go into the front of the kids pants. I might be wrong.

Every bit of info I can find about second degree rape includes a requirement of sexual intent. That's why I think this argument goes too far. There is no reason to make the incident worse than it is - because it's bad enough without claiming any action that is not clearly shown.

The pants did not come down and I watched more than once and did not see what you are describing. As for the father not saying anything - the big club TSA has is they can boot you off the flight.

Seasoned - I agree this is wrong. The problem comes when people go overboard in screaming about something rather than saying "this at ANY level is not acceptable".

Maybe it's just me. When I hear reasoned arguments made against something going on - I listen and think about it. When I hear people screaming "rape" or "call the police" or "unreasonable search and seizure" I back off a bit because it becomes hysterical screaming and charges of "what constitutes this" and "what constitutes that" are definitions made by others and I don't blindly buy into them. Not saying they are wrong - just that I think my reaction is not abnormal.

My point is simple - this is unacceptable at any level. There is no reason to claim things we couldn't see because what we could see is reason enough to demand a change.

I don't think we have any protection from this under the law or the constitution right now - because the govt has decided we will submit to searches if we want to fly. This is the same mindset that wants to fine you if you don't buy insurance - so why are we surprised?

I still think we need to question WHY this is happening NOW -

Anyone wonder WHY this is happening NOW? Think about it - do you think it's accidental that this policy started just after shipments were found that contained explosives? Never mind that these were baggage items (which still aren't being fully checked) - take the focus off that by searching people.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Every bit of info I can find about second degree rape includes a requirement of sexual intent. That's why I think this argument goes too far. There is no reason to make the incident worse than it is - because it's bad enough without claiming any action that is not clearly shown.

CAREFUL, you are treading water! You can't really prove intent at that level.

The pants did not come down and I watched more than once and did not see what you are describing. As for the father not saying anything - the big club TSA has is they can boot you off the flight.

I saw what heysal described. I don't know if it is the wildly invasive and potentially INCENDIARY screening I KNOW they do because THEY DID IT WITH ME, or something WORSE! But it looks like they did it.

Seasoned - I agree this is wrong. The problem comes when people go overboard in screaming about something rather than saying "this at ANY level is not acceptable".

Maybe it's just me. When I hear reasoned arguments made against something going on - I listen and think about it. When I hear people screaming "rape" or "call the police" or "unreasonable search and seizure" I back off a bit because it becomes hysterical screaming and charges of "what constitutes this" and "what constitutes that" are definitions made by others and I don't blindly buy into them. Not saying they are wrong - just that I think my reaction is not abnormal.

My point is simple - this is unacceptable at any level. There is no reason to claim things we couldn't see because what we could see is reason enough to demand a change.

You are right, to a degree, but this stupid government does NOT listen to calm reasoned arguments.

I don't think we have any protection from this under the law or the constitution right now - because the govt has decided we will submit to searches if we want to fly. This is the same mindset that wants to fine you if you don't buy insurance - so why are we surprised?

I still think we need to question WHY this is happening NOW -

Well, we DO "have protection". The problem is that the GOVERNMENT is supposed to enforce it. And I am NOT the first to make this argument.

This basic garbage started because apparently they had scanners lying around(Now thatt I think about it, THAT was suspicious), and the underwear bomber tried his thing. I went through about 3 weeks ago, so MAYBE I haven't seen the NEWEST garbage. If it has changed, THAT is the question.

The OLD patdown uses the palm to do a basic patdown, then they check under the belt area, then they use the BACK of the hand to go down the spine, and up the inseam, to the crotch area, "until they feel resistance". As I recall, the last time, they even went up the front so they could feel all THAT stuff! They then check the gloves they used for bomb residue.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Every bit of info I can find about second degree rape includes a requirement of sexual intent. That's why I think this argument goes too far. There is no reason to make the incident worse than it is - because it's bad enough without claiming any action that is not clearly shown.

The pants did not come down and I watched more than once and did not see what you are describing. As for the father not saying anything - the big club TSA has is they can boot you off the flight.

Seasoned - I agree this is wrong. The problem comes when people go overboard in screaming about something rather than saying "this at ANY level is not acceptable".

Maybe it's just me. When I hear reasoned arguments made against something going on - I listen and think about it. When I hear people screaming "rape" or "call the police" or "unreasonable search and seizure" I back off a bit because it becomes hysterical screaming and charges of "what constitutes this" and "what constitutes that" are definitions made by others and I don't blindly buy into them. Not saying they are wrong - just that I think my reaction is not abnormal.

My point is simple - this is unacceptable at any level. There is no reason to claim things we couldn't see because what we could see is reason enough to demand a change.

I don't think we have any protection from this under the law or the constitution right now - because the govt has decided we will submit to searches if we want to fly. This is the same mindset that wants to fine you if you don't buy insurance - so why are we surprised?

I still think we need to question WHY this is happening NOW -

Kay - I worked in a sexual assault crisis center. Intent is NOT necessary. Most full-fledged rapes are not sexually intented. They are plays of aggression and power which only use sexual acts to perpetrate the crime. Touching someone's genitals and disrobing them without their willing consent is a degree of rape and can be prosecuted as such in every other situation. This situation should follow the same precedence. I went through this one with a school system that decided they could strip search kids for cigarettes back in 1984. Coincidental date, but the school lost and the whole board and administration was replaced for it.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Durham

yup, you're right..... just a pipe dream.....
science, logic, and advancement will never win out over greed, ego, and stupidity

YOU'RE RIGHT! It is a proven fact that a growing group of propagandized people will likely NEVER listen to you, much less follow any such thing. HEY, that's the way it has been throughout recorded history, why should today be any different?

Steve

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waterotter

14 years ago

For years, children suffered in silence while being abused. Turn the clock forward - we now live in a world where children are encouraged to tell someone if someone touches them inappropriately. That being said, this is going to make it much easier for doctors, pediatricians, dentists....the list goes on, to abuse their patients. I can't imagine the conflicting messages children are subjected to - when is it ok for someone to touch them inappropriately?

Children are supposed to be able to trust their doctor etc. So how do we explain the difference between security touching them as opposed to their doctor etc? There are too many mixed messages. We are turning the clock back to a time when abuse was not talked about.

I couldn't watch the video due to my dial-up. Just going by the posts.

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Authority bloopers...

YouTube - that's my penis

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shadow_wolf013

14 years ago

Disclaimer: This is liable to be an inflamatory post. Note that i do not intend to offend and take it for what it is, an opinion.

Its almost funny to watch how things have changed over the last 10 or so years.

On the one side, you have people screaming about 'safety'

On the other people screaming about rights, or the abuse thereof.

Is what occured in that video unreasonable? sure. But i refuse to accept it being unreasonable on the basis that it is a child. Now, follow me on this please before you get upset.

Scenario one: Adult male and child travelling together. Adult gets searched but the child does not, the child however had a weapon places upon him, or a bomb by the adult. KNOWING that the child would not be checked. Both board the plane, plane is then hijacked, blown up etc. Sounds crazy but this is the reality of the world we live in.

Scenario two: Same two travellers, but this time BOTH are checked in the exact same manner. Hidden material found, crisis averted.

Mind you, these are less then perfect examples. As it assumes those doing the checking do their job properly, and does not account for human error and other potential issues.

The point remains however, that exceptions can not and must not be made. Because they will be exploited by that one individual out of millions who intends to cause harm.

And for anyone thinking that it is impossible for someone to use a child in such a way.... i encourage you to look around. I saw a child with a suicide vest blown to smithereens with my own eyes, because a coward made them do it and pushed the button from a distance. There are places in the world ( i know this happened in Africa) where children are given weapons and serve in local militias.

In a perfect world children would be sacred, and would not be used for nefarious purposes. But, in the real world in which we live that is simply not, nor will it ever be the case more then likely.

So, while i disapprove of what was shown in the video. I know that, truthfully that is probably the best way it could have been done. Why? Yes, everyone saw it. No, nothing sensitive was shown. Infact there was nothing more there then if the child was at a pool or something. And by doing it in front of everyone they are protecting THEMSELVES as well. No one can claim something wrong happened behind closed doors. It was done right there before the public eye.

What someone said about trusting your doctor is an interesting point. Why do we inherintly trust someone like a doctor to be a professional, but people supposedly charged with our safety and well being in a very vulnerable position (flying) are viewed with scorn and distrust? Sure. There are probably a few bad apples, but the majority are professionals (again, my opinion based on experience) trying to do their job. Who have to day in, day out, deal with people who want nothing more then to scrutinize them and find anything possible wrong with what they are doing. Should they be scrutinized? yes, like any public safety agency should be. (haha). Should there be a witch hunt when one of them sneezes? no.

On a final note, because im allready being far too long winded. The current system is broken, i know that and you know that. It does need to be fixed. However, what will not fix it is creating sensationalism over nothing. Which, as a society we have proven we are incapable of doing.

Want to fix it? find a way to get everyone safely onto an airplane. That stops the terrorists and like minded individuals (which we still cant do) AND keeps everyone happy... good luck.

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by shadow_wolf013

Scenario one: Adult male and child travelling together. Adult gets searched but the child does not, the child however had a weapon places upon him, or a bomb by the adult. KNOWING that the child would not be checked. Both board the plane, plane is then hijacked, blown up etc. Sounds crazy but this is the reality of the world we live in.

Scenario two: Same two travellers, but this time BOTH are checked in the exact same manner. Hidden material found, crisis averted.

This is a big reason we have devolved as a society to the level we have. Since those scenarios are fictitious but people still believe they are in danger because the mind can conceive of such occurances we have people advocating that unconstitutional acts should be carried out against ordinary citizens in an attempt to make sure fantasy never becomes reality.

When it gets to the point that you are only allowed to leave your bed under official escort will that make you happy?

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CrhisD

14 years ago

Originally Posted by shadow_wolf013

Disclaimer: This is liable to be an inflamatory post. Note that i do not intend to offend and take it for what it is, an opinion.

Its almost funny to watch how things have changed over the last 10 or so years.

On the one side, you have people screaming about 'safety'

On the other people screaming about rights, or the abuse thereof.

Is what occured in that video unreasonable? sure. But i refuse to accept it being unreasonable on the basis that it is a child. Now, follow me on this please before you get upset.

Scenario one: Adult male and child travelling together. Adult gets searched but the child does not, the child however had a weapon places upon him, or a bomb by the adult. KNOWING that the child would not be checked. Both board the plane, plane is then hijacked, blown up etc. Sounds crazy but this is the reality of the world we live in.

Scenario two: Same two travellers, but this time BOTH are checked in the exact same manner. Hidden material found, crisis averted.

Mind you, these are less then perfect examples. As it assumes those doing the checking do their job properly, and does not account for human error and other potential issues.

The point remains however, that exceptions can not and must not be made. Because they will be exploited by that one individual out of millions who intends to cause harm.

And for anyone thinking that it is impossible for someone to use a child in such a way.... i encourage you to look around. I saw a child with a suicide vest blown to smithereens with my own eyes, because a coward made them do it and pushed the button from a distance. There are places in the world ( i know this happened in Africa) where children are given weapons and serve in local militias.

In a perfect world children would be sacred, and would not be used for nefarious purposes. But, in the real world in which we live that is simply not, nor will it ever be the case more then likely.

So, while i disapprove of what was shown in the video. I know that, truthfully that is probably the best way it could have been done. Why? Yes, everyone saw it. No, nothing sensitive was shown. Infact there was nothing more there then if the child was at a pool or something. And by doing it in front of everyone they are protecting THEMSELVES as well. No one can claim something wrong happened behind closed doors. It was done right there before the public eye.

What someone said about trusting your doctor is an interesting point. Why do we inherintly trust someone like a doctor to be a professional, but people supposedly charged with our safety and well being in a very vulnerable position (flying) are viewed with scorn and distrust? Sure. There are probably a few bad apples, but the majority are professionals (again, my opinion based on experience) trying to do their job. Who have to day in, day out, deal with people who want nothing more then to scrutinize them and find anything possible wrong with what they are doing. Should they be scrutinized? yes, like any public safety agency should be. (haha). Should there be a witch hunt when one of them sneezes? no.

On a final note, because im allready being far too long winded. The current system is broken, i know that and you know that. It does need to be fixed. However, what will not fix it is creating sensationalism over nothing. Which, as a society we have proven we are incapable of doing.

Want to fix it? find a way to get everyone safely onto an airplane. That stops the terrorists and like minded individuals (which we still cant do) AND keeps everyone happy... good luck.

Whatever happened to the x-ray machine device?

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Kay King

14 years ago

The problem with making up "scenarios" is, to me, the same problem as claiming charges that don't fit.

Prior to 9/11 there were experts warning of a potential attack using airliners. They were ignored because officials did not have the imagination to conceive of such an attack.

After the attack, those same officials can imagine all sorts of variations - on the same thing. They still do not have the mindset required to imagine all potential risks. Terrorism experts warn of cargoes, baggage, public venues, borders....but our security focuses most of its attention only on the same threat they took seriously only after the fact.

The families of 9/11 and some in this thread can spin one "what if" scenario after another to justify this stupidity. It doesn't make it less stupid. It doesn't make the actions logical - it just attempts to create fear about some mythical circumstance where "something could happen".

What if a 90 yr old great grandmother decides to carry a hidden explosive in her undies? What are the chances of that being a real scenario? What are the chances of a 7 yr old being an explosive device? How long before women are told to remove their blouses or men to remove their pants? Will we make up scenarios that can be used to justify it?

The "what if" scenes come from those looking to justify their beliefs and actions. But "call the cops" goes too far the other way for me. Local law enforcement isn't likely to have jurisdiction over a government agency's employees conducting their jobs as they've been instructed.

I'm rambling but the point is you have to fight the problem that EXISTS as it is. This is a privacy issue and a search and seizure issue. It's been allowed to grow from restrictions on how much shampoo or lotion you can carry to being told your body must be made available. If we go off left and right with agendas of our own, none of the complaints will be taken seriously and the majority of the public will not want to be involved.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Having a bomb inside someones underwear isn't mythical anymore since the underwear bomber last holiday season. That bomb could have killed everyone on board that plane. These new tactics by TSA are a direct result of that failed but potentially very deadly attack.

Plus, as another poster here said, the terrorists have already used women of all ages and children too to carry out suicide attacks. Unfortunately this is the world we live in now and isn't a fantasy.

Originally Posted by Kay King

After the attack, those same officials can imagine all sorts of variations - on the same thing. They still do not have the mindset required to imagine all potential risks. Terrorism experts warn of cargoes, baggage, public venues, borders....but our security focuses most of its attention only on the same threat they took seriously only after the fact.

The families of 9/11 and some in this thread can spin one "what if" scenario after another to justify this stupidity. It doesn't make it less stupid. It doesn't make the actions logical - it just attempts to create fear about some mythical circumstance where "something could happen".

What if a 90 yr old great grandmother decides to carry a hidden explosive in her undies? What are the chances of that being a real scenario? What are the chances of a 7 yr old being an explosive device?

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Having a bomb inside someones underwear isn't mythical anymore since the underwear bomber last holiday season. That bomb could have killed everyone on board that plane. These new tactics by TSA are a direct result of that failed but potentially very deadly attack.

Plus, as another poster here said, the terrorists have already used women of all ages and children too to carry out suicide attacks. Unfortunately this is the world we live in now and isn't a fantasy.

Tim - same comment to you. You explain how Tel-Aviv, despite its location, has managed to avert terrorist attacks via superior security that does not require touching, feeling, groping, or naked electronic imagery yet we have to violate common everyday peaceful people and still have security that is less effective than Tel-Aviv's.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

I agree. I have been wondering the same thing. I'm not saying the way we are doing it now is the only or best way.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Tim - same comment to you. You explain how Tel-Aviv, despite its location, has managed to avert terrorist attacks via superior security that does not require touching, feeling, groping, or naked electronic imagery yet we have to violate common everyday peaceful people and still have security that is less effective than Tel-Aviv's.

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MikeAmbrosio

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Tim - same comment to you. You explain how Tel-Aviv, despite its location, has managed to avert terrorist attacks via superior security that does not require touching, feeling, groping, or naked electronic imagery yet we have to violate common everyday peaceful people and still have security that is less effective than Tel-Aviv's.

I am not an expert on airport security or Tel Aviv, but it would seem to me that they have, what, one airport to guard as compared to how many we have? Seems they SHOULD be able to do a better job. Plus, those special forces guys over there are some skillful mutha's

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

I am not an expert on airport security or Tel Aviv, but it would seem to me that they have, what, one airport to guard as compared to how many we have? Seems they SHOULD be able to do a better job. Plus, those special forces guys over there are some skillful mutha's

WOW! I guess the world is STARVING then! I mean do you have ANY idea how many people it takes to feed perhaps 6+ BILLION!?!?!? Yep, we are SUNK! Eventually that farmer will die, and everyone will just STARVE TO DEATH! Funny thing, the larger the job, the mre resources theey generally give it.

Steve

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Will Perkins

14 years ago

Originally Posted by shadow_wolf013

Disclaimer: This is liable to be an inflamatory post. Note that i do not intend to offend and take it for what it is, an opinion.

Its almost funny to watch how things have changed over the last 10 or so years.

On the one side, you have people screaming about 'safety'

On the other people screaming about rights, or the abuse thereof.

Is what occured in that video unreasonable? sure. But i refuse to accept it being unreasonable on the basis that it is a child. Now, follow me on this please before you get upset.

Scenario one: Adult male and child travelling together. Adult gets searched but the child does not, the child however had a weapon places upon him, or a bomb by the adult. KNOWING that the child would not be checked. Both board the plane, plane is then hijacked, blown up etc. Sounds crazy but this is the reality of the world we live in.

Scenario two: Same two travellers, but this time BOTH are checked in the exact same manner. Hidden material found, crisis averted.

Mind you, these are less then perfect examples. As it assumes those doing the checking do their job properly, and does not account for human error and other potential issues.

The point remains however, that exceptions can not and must not be made. Because they will be exploited by that one individual out of millions who intends to cause harm.

And for anyone thinking that it is impossible for someone to use a child in such a way.... i encourage you to look around. I saw a child with a suicide vest blown to smithereens with my own eyes, because a coward made them do it and pushed the button from a distance. There are places in the world ( i know this happened in Africa) where children are given weapons and serve in local militias.

In a perfect world children would be sacred, and would not be used for nefarious purposes. But, in the real world in which we live that is simply not, nor will it ever be the case more then likely.

So, while i disapprove of what was shown in the video. I know that, truthfully that is probably the best way it could have been done. Why? Yes, everyone saw it. No, nothing sensitive was shown. Infact there was nothing more there then if the child was at a pool or something. And by doing it in front of everyone they are protecting THEMSELVES as well. No one can claim something wrong happened behind closed doors. It was done right there before the public eye.

What someone said about trusting your doctor is an interesting point. Why do we inherintly trust someone like a doctor to be a professional, but people supposedly charged with our safety and well being in a very vulnerable position (flying) are viewed with scorn and distrust? Sure. There are probably a few bad apples, but the majority are professionals (again, my opinion based on experience) trying to do their job. Who have to day in, day out, deal with people who want nothing more then to scrutinize them and find anything possible wrong with what they are doing. Should they be scrutinized? yes, like any public safety agency should be. (haha). Should there be a witch hunt when one of them sneezes? no.

On a final note, because im allready being far too long winded. The current system is broken, i know that and you know that. It does need to be fixed. However, what will not fix it is creating sensationalism over nothing. Which, as a society we have proven we are incapable of doing.

Want to fix it? find a way to get everyone safely onto an airplane. That stops the terrorists and like minded individuals (which we still cant do) AND keeps everyone happy... good luck.

I didn't have time to read ALL of the post but wanted to comment on what you said.

Sure, both NEED to be search but no way in hell should a seven year old be VIOLATED in public like that EVER... If you had a good enough attorney you could sue that airport for numerous things....

I agree with you about how we need to find a way to get everyone on safely, but we also need to realize that people DO have rights and what happened in this video just shouldn't happen. Put him behind a screen or something at least, but just protect an individuals privacy at the bear minimum.

Small list of things that airport could be sued for:

- 2nd degree rape
- Assault (whether he "hurt" him or not doesn't matter)
- Child Pornography (if there is a video camera that recorded that, the kid had his shirt off and was being touched, it's a stretch but like I said with a good enough attorney)

Sure all three of those would be "stretching" it some, but someone NEEDS to make an example out of an airport and get these searchers in check...

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shadow_wolf013

14 years ago

Originally Posted by XteeSy

I didn't have time to read ALL of the post but wanted to comment on what you said.

Sure, both NEED to be search but no way in hell should a seven year old be VIOLATED in public like that EVER... If you had a good enough attorney you could sue that airport for numerous things....

I agree with you about how we need to find a way to get everyone on safely, but we also need to realize that people DO have rights and what happened in this video just shouldn't happen. Put him behind a screen or something at least, but just protect an individuals privacy at the bear minimum.

Small list of things that airport could be sued for:

- 2nd degree rape
- Assault (whether he "hurt" him or not doesn't matter)
- Child Pornography (if there is a video camera that recorded that, the kid had his shirt off and was being touched, it's a stretch but like I said with a good enough attorney)

Sure all three of those would be "stretching" it some, but someone NEEDS to make an example out of an airport and get these searchers in check...

That right there is proving part of what i said though.

WHY are we more worried about suing people for doing their jobs, then we are about WHY they are doing the job in the first place?

The people who want to sue over something like this, are the same ones who would sue those exact same people if something happened on the flight.

Putting him behind a screen would have made it better for some, but i guarantee you others would scream their heads off instead because now they cant see what happened and can make even more wild accusations of wrong doing.

And yes, these procedures have to be recorded. No question, why? the camera doesnt lie (directly, these things can be altered BUT follow my premise here) the camera is always there for the protection of the worker as well as the passenger. For the same reason police use dashboard cameras and etc.

At any rate, one simple thing would do the world alot of good. Quit suing people for frivolous crap. Because right now its just absurd. Get coffee spilled on you? sue xyz corporation because they had hot coffee. We need to get out of this mentality and use our heads for something other then a hat rack.

But ill stop there as i dont want to derail the thread too far with my personal pet peeves.

1. We don't know WHY this boy was searched. Perhaps he was setting off the metal detectors and they couldn't figure out why?

2. Since when is it a big deal for a male to have his shirt off in public?

And yes, exactly Tina.

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Kay King

14 years ago

That right there is proving part of what i said though.

WHY are we more worried about suing people for doing their jobs, then we are about WHY they are doing the job in the first place?

There's no prize for "proving your point". This isn't a black and white issue.

Tina - the problem is the lack of common sense. The boy had to take off his shirt and then the TSA person ran his hands over the kid and around his waistband a few times. Why wouldn't the next person be a girl or a woman? Would that be different? If it can happen to one person - it will only spread to others.

When our fears nine years after 9/11 are still increasing - the problem is us. We will never be totally safe - we aren't safe when we leave our homes and not safe in our homes. We can fall off a stool or walk in front of a car or have a freak accident. That doesn't keep us from living our lives.

This country was founded on rights our ancestors demanded. To have those rights, they suffered unimaginable hardship because freedom and the right of self determination was worth the risk. Have we become so weak and frightened that we willingly give up many of those rights for a promise of "increased security" or the overused "remember 9/11"? I'll take the risk and keep the freedoms.

When we allow fear of terrorism to change the way we live and are willing to give up our rights for an illusion of security - they win.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by shadow_wolf013

Disclaimer: This is liable to be an inflamatory post. Note that i do not intend to offend and take it for what it is, an opinion.

Its almost funny to watch how things have changed over the last 10 or so years.

On the one side, you have people screaming about 'safety'

On the other people screaming about rights, or the abuse thereof.

Is what occured in that video unreasonable? sure. But i refuse to accept it being unreasonable on the basis that it is a child. Now, follow me on this please before you get upset.

Scenario one: Adult male and child travelling together. Adult gets searched but the child does not, the child however had a weapon places upon him, or a bomb by the adult. KNOWING that the child would not be checked. Both board the plane, plane is then hijacked, blown up etc. Sounds crazy but this is the reality of the world we live in.

Scenario two: Same two travellers, but this time BOTH are checked in the exact same manner. Hidden material found, crisis averted.

Mind you, these are less then perfect examples. As it assumes those doing the checking do their job properly, and does not account for human error and other potential issues.

The point remains however, that exceptions can not and must not be made. Because they will be exploited by that one individual out of millions who intends to cause harm.

And for anyone thinking that it is impossible for someone to use a child in such a way.... i encourage you to look around. I saw a child with a suicide vest blown to smithereens with my own eyes, because a coward made them do it and pushed the button from a distance. There are places in the world ( i know this happened in Africa) where children are given weapons and serve in local militias.

In a perfect world children would be sacred, and would not be used for nefarious purposes. But, in the real world in which we live that is simply not, nor will it ever be the case more then likely.

So, while i disapprove of what was shown in the video. I know that, truthfully that is probably the best way it could have been done. Why? Yes, everyone saw it. No, nothing sensitive was shown. Infact there was nothing more there then if the child was at a pool or something. And by doing it in front of everyone they are protecting THEMSELVES as well. No one can claim something wrong happened behind closed doors. It was done right there before the public eye.

What someone said about trusting your doctor is an interesting point. Why do we inherintly trust someone like a doctor to be a professional, but people supposedly charged with our safety and well being in a very vulnerable position (flying) are viewed with scorn and distrust? Sure. There are probably a few bad apples, but the majority are professionals (again, my opinion based on experience) trying to do their job. Who have to day in, day out, deal with people who want nothing more then to scrutinize them and find anything possible wrong with what they are doing. Should they be scrutinized? yes, like any public safety agency should be. (haha). Should there be a witch hunt when one of them sneezes? no.

On a final note, because im allready being far too long winded. The current system is broken, i know that and you know that. It does need to be fixed. However, what will not fix it is creating sensationalism over nothing. Which, as a society we have proven we are incapable of doing.

Want to fix it? find a way to get everyone safely onto an airplane. That stops the terrorists and like minded individuals (which we still cant do) AND keeps everyone happy... good luck.

Then you explain how Tel-Aviv airport is able to avert terrorists to become the safest airport in the world despite its location - without having to use depraved and intrusive measures to achieve perfect security.

If that kid had a knife, a hand scanner would have detected it. There was no need for the strip - that was just show of authority. Period. It served no other purpose than to scare and intimidate other flyers and attempt to justify treating people like their slaves. Hitler would have absolutely loved seeing what is going on here - and don't scream Godwin at me. I used the name of the dictator, sure -- but what I said is truth.

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Kay King

14 years ago

There is a really good article about this - and with comparisons to the Israeli approach to security -

Air travel: One step behind terrorists - The Boston Globe

The paragraph below says what I was trying to get across - we are being reactive and it isn't smart. Nor does it makes us safe.

One step ahead? That isn't how TSA operates. Knives and sharp objects were banned from carry-on luggage after 9/11,

so Richard Reid boarded American Airlines Flight 63 with a bomb built into his shoe. Passengers ever since have had to take off their shoes,

so the 2006 Heathrow terrorists came up with a plan to use liquid explosives. TSA responded by confining liquids to tiny containers sealed in baggies,

so Abdulmutallab smuggled explosive powder in his underwear. Now TSA scans or feels air travelers' nether regions,

so terrorists based in Yemen hid two bombs inside printer cartridges and shipped them to addresses in Chicago. TSA promptly responded by announcing that "toner and ink cartridges over 16 ounces will be prohibited on passenger aircraft in both carry-on bags and checked bags.''

Just who has been staying a step ahead of whom?

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shadow_wolf013

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Then you explain how Tel-Aviv airport is able to avert terrorists to become the safest airport in the world despite its location - without having to use depraved and intrusive measures to achieve perfect security.

Ill try to answer that, on the basis that i have never been in Tel-Aviv and have no knowledge of their security protocals.

Though the comparison is a little strange honestly. And note, im pulling this from Wiki so take it with a grain of salt but. World's busiest airports by passenger traffic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your comparing a vastly smaller countrys airport, which doesnt get nearly the traffic. (10 million in 2009 vs 88 million in ONE US airport.)

Tel-Aviv has both uniformed and undercover police, as well as IDF soldiers (as per their own website) on site. We have, the TSA. In essence a rent a cop style security force which could benefit from alot more training then they recieve. Sometimes you see local police, sometimes you don't it varys honestly.

That right there, probably contributes a good deal. Armed soldiers and police make a very effective visual deterent.

It probably has something to do with the success rate of terrorists there, vs other airports. In the attempts that have been made none of them (that i am aware of feel free to correct me my knowledge in this region is sketchy) have been successfull and end in numerous casualties for the terrorists.

Compared to the US for example, where from a terrorists perspective you have success stories.

Therefore, and mind you this is purely analytical. Tel Aviv is safer because of the following factors:

Less traffic volume
Better trained staff on site
They do not position themselves as a 'weak' target.

And while im sure terrorists in general would love to blow up a jet in Israel. They create more fear and in general a bigger stink by doing something in the US. Which, furthers their objectives (the creation of terror etc.) far more effectivley and for less resources. Unless it aids their objectives (See the Madrid bombings) they arent going to bother.

So, its probably alot like IM. Israel has positioned itself effectivley, The US is the newbie who is making alot of mistakes and losing money. In terms of counter terror.

And no security is perfect.. you can only minimize your risk and become a more difficult target. Optimally, to the point where your opponent will not be inclined to attack you.

Edit: And i neglected to mention. We are our own worst enemies there too, for as much as this is a much smaller world. We are very quick to publicize any little incident... do you think something like this event would even make the news in a more insular society? i doubt it. So it may not always be a matter of what you hear about, so much as what you do not.

Do we have anyone here who is from/lives in the area who can add something to that idea maybe?

Edit #2: Something else that occured to me. Israel (and lets be honest here) has been at war since its creation. So what is qualified as acceptable to your average traveler in that area? Your average citizen is accustomed to heightened security measures, so i doubt such things would create much more then a raised eyebrow... and an international traveler will likely have it mentally ingrained what to expect when they arrive. So perhaps that has something to do with it? Again, as i do not know their security procedures i cannot comment directly.

As a society we are more likely to complain about inconvenience. And those complaints reach out across the world, but the same cannot be said for other countries. Which, imo works in their favor.

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Will Perkins

14 years ago

Sorry but, the fact the this boy was what, 4 feet tall?

He definitely looks like a terrorist.... If someone were to search me or my girlfriend, for one it better be someone of the same sex, and two if they grab me anywhere that they shouldn't be grabbing, expect a lawsuit on their bosses desk Monday morning....

It's 2nd degree rape, you don't know the intent but he's what, MAYBE 7? Have fun telling a judge you strip searched a 7 year old boy with witnesses, women (due to opposite sex), and my favorite, touched him, in public.....

Lets see what judge doesn't call that rape.

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Lambert Klein

14 years ago

Well, I won't be flying anywhere unless it's an absolute emergency, then I will still try to drive.

I haven't even driven out of the U.S. since we randomly got stopped coming back from Canada.

Lambert

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Well, this is bound to be unpopular but I'll add my two cents to the mix.

1. We don't know WHY this boy was searched. Perhaps he was setting off the metal detectors and they couldn't figure out why?

2. Since when is it a big deal for a male to have his shirt off in public?

3. What will you say if they stop searching people and checking, and we have another 9/11 because "they didn't LOOK like terrorists"?

Now, I'm not saying there aren't abuses of the system because I'm sure there are. You find bullies and perverts in any industry, unfortunately. But this clip is too short and has no background information so you cannot reasonably judge why it was done or what the intent was behind it. We have no way of knowing if the guy asked the dad about taking off the shirt in public and dad said yes.

Tina

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

3. What will you say if they stop searching people and checking, and we have another 9/11 because "they didn't LOOK like terrorists"?

What if it turns out the world isn't a perfect place?

How far down this rabbit hole do we need to go to make sure nothing bad ever happens.

54 million people die every year on this planet. Are we to address every instance where some intervention could have prolonged someone's life.

How many people who fly also smoke, drive drunk or recklessly, or take unnecessary risks in their daily lives.

Are we really better off as a controlled society where we allow bureaucrats to determine what risks we are allowed to take?

Who really has won this battle to take our freedoms away? Did the 'terrorists' do this to us, or are we doing it to ourselves?

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Bill,

I'm not saying that it's okay to lose our freedoms. I would prefer not to be patted down, take off my shoes and all that. I only said that third point because after 9/11, there were people all over the place bitching because "they" didn't catch the terrorists before they got on the plane.

The general public outcry is what brought us to this level. Not meaning the people in this thread, necessarily, but it does make me wonder at who was appalled enough back then to say "why aren't they searching people better?". I guarantee that many (as I said, not necessarily in this thread) of the people unhappy with the security now are the same ones who raised a stink back then.

The public has a tendency to ask for things and then be unhappy when they get their wish.

Tina

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I'm not saying that it's okay to lose our freedoms. I would prefer not to be patted down, take off my shoes and all that. I only said that third point because after 9/11, there were people all over the place bitching because "they" didn't catch the terrorists before they got on the plane.

Tina,

I get your point but it would be more appropriate if people would start asking questions like "How come in the over 100 years of building steel reinforced buildings that only 3 steel reinforced buildings have ever suffered total collapse in a pancake fashion like the ones on 9/11 without the services of a highly skilled demolition team employed?"

Only 3 building in over 100 years, WTC #1, WTC #2, and WTC #7.

How did these three buildings out of the 100s of thousands of steel reinforced buildings be the only ones ever to be able to violate the laws of physics in the manner they did?

As an engineer this is really puzzling.

That's a rhetorical question, btw, there's been enough data and evidence to show how that happened and I'm not really puzzled. Unfortunately most people would rather pretend that something out of the blue happened that could have been prevented if our government had just had better controls in place to stop these 'terrorists'.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

There are several ways to answer this question, but the easiest is with another question: How many times has a building had a 767 full of fuel crash into it and not fallen?

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Tina,

I get your point but it would be more appropriate if people would start asking questions like "How come in the over 100 years of building steel reinforced buildings that only 3 steel reinforced buildings have ever suffered total collapse in a pancake fashion like the ones on 9/11 without the services of a highly skilled demolition team employed?"

Only 3 building in over 100 years, WTC #1, WTC #2, and WTC #7.

How did these three buildings out of the 100s of thousands of steel reinforced buildings be the only ones ever to be able to violate the laws of physics in the manner they did.

As an engineer this is really puzzling.

That's a rhetorical question, btw, there's been enough data and evidence to show how that happened and I'm not really puzzled. Unfortunately most people would rather pretend that something out of the blue happened that could have been prevented if our government had just had better controls in place to stop these 'terrorists'.

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

There are several ways to answer this question, but the easiest is with another question: How many times has a building had a 767 full of fuel crash into it and not fallen?

Tim,

That doesn't explain why the central columns of steel collapsed. Floors can pancake and often have. What they don't have the ability to do is take down the central steel reinforcing columns that are designed to take the compressionary loads. Even under a pancaking scenario.

Btw, what was the type of plane that hit building #7?

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Kay King

14 years ago

Thom -

I agree - I'm much more frightened by those who seem to think this is OK.

So who will win - the sheeple or the people? Clearly it will be a fight as the head of the TSA has said he plans to do nothing and doesn't care what people think about it.

Someone needs to give him a good grope.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Thom -

I agree - I'm much more frightened by those who seem to think this is OK.

So who will win - the sheeple or the people? Clearly it will be a fight as the head of the TSA has said he plans to do nothing and doesn't care what people think about it.

Someone needs to give him a good grope.

AND a good hard SQUEEZE, if you catch my meaning!

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Someone needs to give him a good grope.

Or a rope.
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Rob141

14 years ago

I don't mind these searches if they're done by a woman, heck no. Not too keen on men doing them.

If men performed searches on women and women on the men no one would be complaining.

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Rob141

I don't mind these searches if they're done by a woman, heck no. Not too keen on men doing them.

If men performed searches on women and women on the men no one would be complaining.

If I was searched,this is what you would see.

YouTube - A Message From Transport Canada

And of course, here is the new TSA seal

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waterotter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Rob141

I don't mind these searches if they're done by a woman, heck no. Not too keen on men doing them.

If men performed searches on women and women on the men no one would be complaining.

I think you missed the boat on this one.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Rob141

I don't mind these searches if they're done by a woman, heck no. Not too keen on men doing them.

If men performed searches on women and women on the men no one would be complaining.

You haven't read all the posts, have you?

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

The plane and the resulting fire doesn't explain how the central columns collapsed? I think it does. What explanation do you buy? The controlled demolition? I can't buy that one personally.

No plane hit Bldg 7, but a huge part of the towers hit that building and caused a hole about 20 stories high.

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Tim,

That doesn't explain why the central columns of steel collapsed. Floors can pancake and often have. What they don't have the ability to do is take down the central steel reinforcing columns that are designed to take the compressionary loads. Even under a pancaking scenario.

Btw, what was the type of plane that hit building #7?

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

The plane and the resulting fire doesn't explain how the central columns collapsed? I think it does. What explanation do you buy? The controlled demolition? I can't buy that one personally.

No plane hit Bldg 7, but a huge part of the towers hit that building and caused a hole about 20 stories high.

Not to me it doesn't. And what we each believe personally is irrelevent to what transpired. The reason buildings are so well adapted to overcome gravitational forces is because of the application of known engineering principles.

Those same engineering priciples can be used to catastrophically deconstruct a building as well. And in a matter of seconds, if so desired.

Would you feel better knowing the building was a controlled demolition if you were told WMDs were thought to be in there?

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ThomM

14 years ago

What's the bet there will be an "incident" which will be used to convince people that all of this is necessary.

They're using the guy who had the underwear bomb last Dec. as the incident already.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

They're using the guy who had the underwear bomb last Dec. as the incident already.

Does Joe/Joanne Average's memory stretch that far back? Best just to give them an extra jolt to to remind them.

Originally Posted by HeySal

If we don't kill the TSA's little strip search and grope program right now, we are completely and finally owned by corporations. We have our military/industrial complex we were warned about, we have our medical/industrial complex. We are soon to enjoy the full benefit of a food/industrial complex if s510 passes.

You forgot to add, that if you disagree with any of this stuff you end up as a "guest" in the prison/industrial complex.

What do you expect when people are now "human resources".

I hated that term when I first heard it, and I hate it even more now.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Engineering principles don't stop many building from burning to the ground or falling during an earthquake. The twin towers had some engineering principles which aren't used anymore. I don't get how your question about WMDs has any relevance to this.

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Those same engineering priciples can be used to catastrophically deconstruct a building as well. And in a matter of seconds, if so desired.

Would you feel better knowing the building was a controlled demolition if you were told WMDs were thought to be in there?

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Engineering principles don't stop many building from burning to the ground or falling during an earthquake. The twin towers had some engineering principles which aren't used anymore. I don't get how your question about WMDs has any relevance to this.

I'm just messin' with ya.

If you did't catch the drift it won't be worth either of our time explaining it.

Btw, steel reinforced buildings don't burn to the ground and in earthquakes they topple over. They can't implode by themselves or implode because of fire.

I'm not here to change your mind about anything you believe. You're entitled to believe what you believe.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Well, the twin towers didn't burn to the ground. They did get heavily damaged from two 767 planes hitting them which also resulted in huge fires from both the fuel and material inside the towers and gave way because of weakened trusses which couldn't support the weight above. That's why you can easily see the trusses bulge and floors sagged well before the towers collapsed. Just like the firefighters could tell that Bldg 7 was going to collapse hours before it did.

I got the drift about the WMDs but didn't know you were kidding. Forgot about your sense of humor for a second.

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

I'm just messin' with ya.

If you did't catch the drift it won't be worth either of our time explaining it.

Btw, steel reinforced buildings don't burn to the ground and in earthquakes they topple over. They can't implode by themselves or implode because of fire.

I'm not here to change your mind about anything you believe. You're entitled to believe what you believe.

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ThomM

14 years ago

The child, the old guy, the woman with prosthetic breasts - should not become the poster images for this fight. Common sense should be the point and the rights our citizen are supposed to have.

I must of seen a dozen different people on the different news shows today talking about this. People from the TSA and homeland security director to Ron Paul, other congressmen and a few regular citizens.
Twice the 4th Amendment was mentioned and both times the subject was changed and the interview quickly was ended.
Our government knows it is violating the constitution, it seems they figure if they don't allow anyone to talk about it then it isn't happening. So that's 2 Amendments they have destroyed.

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Karen Blundell

14 years ago

Those scanners are going to be implemented in Canada soon - gee, I can't wait.
:rolleyes:
I guess I won't be flying anytime soon. I will travel via cars, trains, boats or else nothing.

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

Those scanners are going to be implemented in Canada soon - gee, I can't wait.
:rolleyes:
I guess I won't be flying anytime soon. I will travel via cars, trains, boats or else nothing.

The American department of groping | Ezra Levant | Columnists | Comment | Toronto Sun

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

The plane and the resulting fire doesn't explain how the central columns collapsed? I think it does. What explanation do you buy? The controlled demolition? I can't buy that one personally.

No plane hit Bldg 7, but a huge part of the towers hit that building and caused a hole about 20 stories high.

1,200 building engineers say it can't. So why should we listen to you? Are you a physicist or an engineer? I think I'll stick with the experts on that conclusion.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Don't listen to me. Use your own mind and eyes. All I can do is point out why I feel like I do. However, the website that has the 1200 architects and engineers has been discredited pretty well. Even they said that this subject was outside their scope of training and experience. So using that argument is pretty weak.

Hey, listen to this debate between a truther and a member of Al Qaeda who is clearly upset at not getting credit:

9/11 Conspiracy Theories 'Ridiculous,' Al Qaeda Says | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | Onion News Network

Originally Posted by HeySal

1,200 building engineers say it can't. So why should we listen to you? Are you a physicist or an engineer? I think I'll stick with the experts on that conclusion.

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Hey, listen to this debate between a truther and a member of Al Qaeda who is clearly upset at not getting credit:

9/11 Conspiracy Theories 'Ridiculous,' Al Qaeda Says | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | Onion News Network

The Onion is a comedy/parody site I'm guessing you know...

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

It isn't A comedy/parody site Bill. It's THE comedy/parody site. I love that Al Qaeda/truther bit.

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

The Onion is a comedy/parody site I'm guessing you know...
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Kay King 14 years ago

Thom -

That's funny - I was thinking the same thing days ago when I was watching about the "feel downs" on the news. I can't imagine a worse job than to have to touch stranger's all day!

I suggest by now everyone has their own opinion about 9/11 - let's not argue it again and get the thread deleted. It's not worth it and no minds are going to be changed at this late date.

When talking about federal purchases, "follow the money" is good advice.
Remember Michael Chertoff? Guess what he sells? How any connections in D.C. do you think he has? I doubt he's the only ex-official (or official) with a stake in this machinery.

Have you seen the new underwear with a figleaf on it the scanner can't penetrate? Talk about an entrepreneur.

I'm sorry to hear Canada is also buying into the hysteria - they might want to wait and see how bad it gets here?

I'd like to see this hit the courts - but it wouldn't matter as we have seen several times just recently that a court order is just ignored or the motion changed to fudge up the works.

kay
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- seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  Have you seen the new underwear with a figleaf on it the scanner can't penetrate? Talk about an entrepreneur.
  
  In theory, the underwear can NOT work. It can't protect against radiation, because of incomplete covering, etc... MAY set off some metal detectors, ALSO, and this is key, it would affect the scan, which may mean the TSA may have the person even take off their UNDERWEAR!
  
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Frank Donovan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Who really has won this battle to take our freedoms away? Did the 'terrorists' do this to us, or are we doing it to ourselves?

It seems to me that this is the key issue in this debate. It's a question of how far we have to degrade ourselves as a society, before admitting that the terrorists have won.

The likelihood is that physical frisking at airports (at least at the busier ones) will give way to body scanning machines - the so-called "naked body scanners" currently being trialled at several major international airports.

New scanners break child porn laws | Politics | The Guardian

I'm reminded of the quote, usually attributed to Ben Franklin: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Frank
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BlondieWrites

14 years ago

I just read on the news about an hour ago where a woman was searched inside her underwear. Then yesterday was about the man that had survived cancer and had to use a bag, and TOLD the people, yet they kept on until they caused him to have his own urine all over himself, in public.

You know who will stop this nonsense? The people that PAY these people that are doing this are the ones that can put a stop to it. As one above said, unless you HAVE to fly, drive and stop flying. When there's no money for their paychecks, they will get the hint... maybe.

I am all for being safe, but this is nonsense. Searching little kids by making them take their clothes off, searching inside of people's underwear, patting down to the point of making it an assualt... that's not safety, that's sick.

Just my two cents.... put a hurting on their pocketbooks and they will get the hint, much faster than trying to talk to them and say it. They can't hear, but they will sure notice when their paychecks take a hurting.

Cindy

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ThomM

14 years ago

3. What will you say if they stop searching people and checking, and we have another 9/11 because "they didn't LOOK like terrorists"?

Tina 9/11 could of been prevented if the cockpit doors where locked, that's all that needed to be done at that time.
As far as what the TSA is doing now, that is a direct violation of our 4th amendment rights, period.
Sure we need good security at our airports, but we do not need to destroy or ignore our constitution to achieve it.

This idea that Big Government can solve all our problems -- give us jobs, provide us with food, protect us from terrorists, manage our savings accounts, and run our health care -- is the single most insidious and dangerous idea that has ever infected the minds of the American people.
Ron Paul says enough is enough; blasts TSA for obscene pat-downs and police state tactics

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Ken Leatherman

14 years ago

O.k. I just went back and re-watched the video again and listened to it more closely. Towards the end of the video I hear a conversation - "They arresting the kid" response "Yep" "Knife"and the last part of video show TSA guy walking away with what appears an object that could well be a knife with the kid and father following the TSA employee.

If it was a knife it set the alarm off as the child walked through the metal detector. Then the TSA people had to do their job. Failure to do so could have resulted in a very tragic event taking place.

This being the case the father is entirely responsible for every thing that transpired. It was his duty and obligation to make sure his child was prepared to go through the screening without any problems.

Now that having been said, could a screen have been rolled into place immediately, you bet. But then think about this (and I know someone is going to jump all over this) if the TSA employees were told to allow the public to see what can be done to them also. Hoping this would stop someone else from trying something similar or more brazen. Frankly I hope that is not the case. As we all know a lock on a closed door only works to keep honest people out (or something to that effect).

The TSA could have handled this particular situation with more discretion, no doubt in my mind about that. However to say it constitutes rape, assault, kid porno or any other felony I disagree. Please remember that is my opinion.

Ken

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HeySal

14 years ago

Kay -- the reason I keep insisting on handling this kind of matter as rape is because the psychological repercussions are exactly the same. That is what is important in my view.

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waterotter

14 years ago

My God, enough is enough. Talk about the ultimate humiliation:

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine - Travel - News - msnbc.com

And yet, more humiliation:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2010/11...ncer+Survivors

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

My God, enough is enough. Talk about the ultimate humiliation:

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine - Travel - News - msnbc.com

And yet, more humiliation:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2010/11/22/92144/744/travel/The+TSA+Doesn't+Care+About+Cancer+Survivors

They showed both those stories on the local noon news today.
Honestly as disgusting as both those incidences are the traveler they interviewed afterward was worse.
He said the radiating scanners and groping pat downs where good for us as a country. Translation to me is he is saying destroying our constitution is a good thing. Someone like that ought to be arrested for treason.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

My God, enough is enough. Talk about the ultimate humiliation:

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine - Travel - News - msnbc.com

And yet, more humiliation:

The TSA Doesn't Care About Cancer Survivors || Jaunted

MAN, with SAWYER! I hope he sues BIG TIME! The "EMT"s, at cincinnati at least, are like the keystone cops, and the TSA does NOT want you to wear anything. I could just imagine that I faint or something, and they use an angioscope to check things out. FAIRLY standard treatment, EXCEPT for people with things like artificial valves like mine! There are SO many problems with that garbage. HECK, I take over a weeks supply of warfarin with me everywhere. What happens if it is STOLEN due to their extreme negligence, and they strand me someplace? And I can't just buy more, because I usually buy all I can for the month, and it is PRESCRIPTION.

Steve

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

What concerns me is how far toward a police state can we go without becoming a police state?

Or is it too late already?

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

What concerns me is how far toward a police state can we go without becoming a police state?

Or is it too late already?

That depends on what is more important to the populous. Watching MTV and DWTS or actually trying to accomplish worthwhile goals.

Once we get to a point where quotes such as "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" are construed as leadership the game is pretty much over.

Tic toc...

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

That depends on what is more important to the populous. Watching MTV and DWTS or actually trying to accomplish worthwhile goals.

Once we get to a point where quotes such as "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" are construed as leadership the game is pretty much over.

Tic toc...

At least one person understands what I was saying.

I'll bet one thing, now that news of these pat downs are so well publicized, I'll be TSA has no shortage of job applicants ... and a good many of them are probably for all the wrong reasons.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

The real reason behind the scanners?

YouTube - DHS Head Chertoff Got 350 Million...

BTW, word is getting out that the reasoning behind the "grope" sessions is to humiliate people into going through the scanners.

For those who oppose the scanners and the gropes, you have to be aware that someone is making money from all of this, so your rights mean nothing. Their right to make money is far more important.

What's the bet there will be an "incident" which will be used to convince people that all of this is necessary.

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dagaul101

14 years ago

It's really getting out of hand, whatever happened to the sniffer dogs for drugs the police use, can't they use them on airports, what is the point of this invasion of privacy full body scan, that exposes people to radiation and for the images to find themselves on the Internet especially if the person is famous, as someone once said you should never allow the country to encroach on your civil liberties in the guise of security

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thatgirlJ

14 years ago

It was the boy's father who removed the shirt. The officer should have asked that the father not remove his son's shirt because it is against policy, but it was not a "strip search" nor a "rape" (!!!!).

The TSA Blog: Response to "Young Boy Strip Searched by TSA"

I won't comment further than this, but the misinformation and hyperbole here (and around the Internet) is shocking.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

It was the boy's father who removed the shirt. The officer should have asked that the father not remove his son's shirt because it is against policy, but it was not a "strip search" nor a "rape" (!!!!).

The TSA Blog: Response to "Young Boy Strip Searched by TSA"

I won't comment further than this, but the misinformation and hyperbole here (and around the Internet) is shocking.

Here's one of the comments off the same blog.

"Lets get the facts straight first. Before the video started the boy went through a metal detector and didn't set it off but was selected for a pat down. The boy was shy so the TSA couldn't complete the full pat on the young boy. The father tried several times to just hold the boys arms out for the TSA agent but i guess it didn't end up being enough for the guy. I was about 30 ft away so i couldn't hear their conversation if there was any. The enraged father pulled his son shirt off and gave it to the TSA agent to search, thats when this video begins. "

Does TSA have any video to support their version of the story?

Also what about the guy who's bag was broken so he ended up with his own urine all over him just before his flight.
What about the lady who had a mastectomy and was ordered to remove her prosthetic? Or the lady who had her prosthetic moved all around.
What about the radiation from the body scanners?
What about the 4th amendment?
This is nothing more then the government forcing us to give up our rights that our forefathers fought so hard for us to have under the disguise of security.

What's shocking here is that we the people are allowing the TSA to get away with this blatant destruction of our rights granted to us under the Constitution of the United States.

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thatgirlJ

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's one of the comments off the same blog.

Also what about the guy who's bag was broken so he ended up with his own urine all over him just before his flight.
What about the lady who had a mastectomy and was ordered to remove her prosthetic? Or the lady who had her prosthetic moved all around.
What about the radiation from the body scanners?
What about the 4th amendment?
This is nothing more then the government forcing us to give up our rights that our forefathers fought so hard for us to have under the disguise of security.

What's shocking here is that we the people are allowing the TSA to get away with this blatant destruction of our rights granted to us under the Constitution of the United States.

I need to make it clear that I am commenting on calling this a RAPE. That is what I find shocking.

Many of the stories sadden me. Many of the stories are taking on a life of their own online.

Things have gone too far, and policies need to change. That does not mean we can be "soft" in ensuring that those who get on our planes are not dangerous.

What Tina has said makes a lot of sense.

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ThomM 14 years ago

I need to make it clear that I am commenting on calling this a RAPE. That is what I find shocking.

I agree Jenn, I think calling it rape is out of line.
The TSA is committing enough outrageous acts without having people trying to amplify what they are doing.
This issue is already big enough to cause an uproar, trying to make something out of this video that it's not only weakens that uproar and gives strength to the TSA.

Think about it folks, if you are calling that video rape when it is obvious it's not you are giving the TSA the ammo to defend itself and practices.
What they are doing is outrageous enough without turning something into something it's not.
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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

That does not mean we can be "soft" in ensuring that those who get on our planes are not dangerous.

OK, so WHEN will they start ensuring that people are not dangerous? Hey, one time I had to throw out a little <3oz bottle of purrel! The woman behind me came through with a HUGE bag FULL of noxious liquids, etc.... SHE GOT THROUGH! I guess some TSA agent liked her or something.

They *****NEVER***** pay attention to alarms! One paper almost a decade ago said that like 30% of the people working at LAX were ex FELONS! And I DID meet a worker at LAX that was OBVIOUSLY illegal! Though working at mcdonalds, she didn't even know the names of the products! There is reason to believe that 9/11 was an INSIDE JOB!(So NONE of the current polocies would have prevented it! NONE!!!!!!!) HECK, had they brough box cutters through security, they probably would have been CAUGHT! EVEN in 1970! Maybe THAT is why they brought box cutters! EASY to hide in the plane, and easy for a worker to explain if they are searched.

Heck, I am scared to bring things through security because SOME of my stuff could be dangerous, and one item could EASILY be made into a bomb. It EVEN has a timer, thermometer, moisture sensor, powersource, and a large area to store explosives. There is never a problem getting IT through security! I also bring lancets. Infected with a simple poison, they could be dangerous!

Steve
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- ThomM 14 years ago
  
  Seeing how these scanners and pat downs can't detect anything hidden in a body cavity and the TSA knows this, what's next?
  
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  Bill Farnham 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ThomM
  
  Seeing how these scanners and pat downs can't detect anything hidden in a body cavity and the TSA knows this, what's next?
  
  Remember to smile and and thank the TSA goon.
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  The TSA blog is like saying "see how bad the oil spill is by visiting BP's home page". The stories there had little in common with reality.
  
  But I totally agree with you about the "rape" charge. I think hypobole on both sides of the issues become so wild and there's so much conjecture and charges the truth gets lost somewhere.
  
  Thom is right - locked cockpit doors would have prevented 9/11. Not allowing knives or box cutters on board would have helped, too.
  
  On one side those who seem to feel the pat downs are "OK" mention various attempts to harm us - but most of those attempts didn't begin in a U.S. airport. Those folks were flying in from Europe so no matter what we did here it wouldn't have stopped them.
  
  How far down this rabbit hole do we need to go to make sure nothing bad ever happens.
  
  I think we could look back at the McCarthy era and see how things can go so far the entire country loses its collective mind.
  
  The child, the old guy, the woman with prosthetic breasts - should not become the poster images for this fight. Common sense should be the point and the rights our citizen are supposed to have.
  
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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

I need to make it clear that I am commenting on calling this a RAPE. That is what I find shocking.

Many of the stories sadden me. Many of the stories are taking on a life of their own online.

Things have gone too far, and policies need to change. That does not mean we can be "soft" in ensuring that those who get on our planes are not dangerous.

What Tina has said makes a lot of sense.

Jenn - when I call it rape I qualify it as 1st degree - actually touching genitals is sexual assault. If someone puts a hand on my crotch, I am going to feel molested. It might not go as far as penetration - but it's still molestation. It should continue to be called molestation. Just because someone has a badge on it doesn't give them the ownership of your body. You retain -- or definitely should -- the right to say NO you can't touch that.

What shocks me is people that are actually duped enough to think that it's all okay and needed to keep them safe. There isn't a terrorist in the world that doesn't know if they want in or out of America that they just have to go to the Mexican Border.

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

What concerns me is how far toward a police state can we go without becoming a police state?

Or is it too late already?

Dennis - it all depends on how fast masses of people take action to stop this travesty. If it is not stopped very quickly, then yes, we're too late. If people can honestly be so stupid as to think that this type of an invasion has anything to do with security, they don't even deserve anything else. I put a link up, I think it's this thread about security scanners being used in, I believe it was Norway. Detects metals, plastics, liquids etc with no naked scanning and no pat downs necessary -- this is all just a stinking show of control and power. I wonder what their plan will be the next time a terrorist slips through their fingers.

Free people do not allow themselves to be treated like this. Free people are not either subjected to harmful radiation or groped like slaves. Anyone who thinks this is okay has the mentality of a slave. They are completely owned whether they realize it or not. I can't imagine being forced to allow someone to fondle my private parts and not being allowed to prosecute for it just because I refused to submit to radiation.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

... it all depends on how fast masses of people take action to stop this travesty. If it is not stopped very quickly, then yes, we're too late. If people can honestly be so stupid as to think that this type of an invasion has anything to do with security, they don't even deserve anything else. I put a link up, I think it's this thread about security scanners being used in, I believe it was Norway. Detects metals, plastics, liquids etc with no naked scanning and no pat downs necessary -- this is all just a stinking show of control and power. I wonder what their plan will be the next time a terrorist slips through their fingers.

Free people do not allow themselves to be treated like this. Free people are not either subjected to harmful radiation or groped like slaves. Anyone who thinks this is okay has the mentality of a slave. They are completely owned whether they realize it or not. I can't imagine being forced to allow someone to fondle my private parts and not being allowed to prosecute for it just because I refused to submit to radiation.

Well said! I do think the "show of power" has a purpose other than the purported purpose. I'll call it conditioning and leave it at that for now.

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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

It was the boy's father who removed the shirt. The officer should have asked that the father not remove his son's shirt because it is against policy, but it was not a "strip search" nor a "rape" (!!!!).

The TSA Blog: Response to "Young Boy Strip Searched by TSA"

I won't comment further than this, but the misinformation and hyperbole here (and around the Internet) is shocking.

Well, that's certainly a reliable source!

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Audrey Harvey

14 years ago

How do they do it in Tel Aviv? Here ya go:

The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

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KimW

14 years ago

Here in Virginia ANY unarthorized touching is classified and prosecutable as an assault. Any. I can bump into you in the checkout line and you can scream assault and potentially be arrested and prosecuted.
Or, your hand can touch someone elses on a doorknob trying to get out of an office and they can have you arrested for assault.
The checkout line story is hypothetical,the doorknob story is TRUE.
My point is one areas pat down may very well be another areas sexual assault.

Our country is trying to legislate common sense,and failing miserably.

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KimW

14 years ago

I might get a t-shirt which reads "I was groped by TSA and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt"

Anyone for a JV on this?

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

I might get a t-shirt which reads "I was groped by TSA and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt"

Anyoone for a JV on this?

Of course you will need a "Don't touch my junk" and "Stop taking my stuff" T also

Never mind Kim, to late already.
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=12215626

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ThomM

14 years ago

Here's another side of this to think about.
Does anyone here really think all the agents doing these pat downs enjoy it?
I'm sure most of them have the job because they where unemployed, applied and where hired. Just like the way the majority of people get a job anywhere else. Now how much fun can it be to get called names all day and if you are straight, having to feel the body of someone of your same sex.
Also the next time you are in an airport, or anywhere else you have a large number of people, look at them. Now how many would you want to have and give a pat down to. Look at a fat person (no offense intended) would you want to feel in the creases of their rolls? How about a couple times a day.
I'm sure there are some bad agents. Every large company has some bad employees.
But the focus in all this really should be the invasive measures they are using on all Americans who fly.
The stories of groping, pee, kids, and prosthetic's are bad, but they are just the results of a bad policy. The policy of using dangerous x ray machines and frisking people who haven't committed a crime is much for vile then the few bad agents taking advantage of this situation.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's another side of this to think about.
Does anyone here really think all the agents doing these pat downs enjoy it?
I'm sure most of them have the job because they where unemployed, applied and where hired. Just like the way the majority of people get a job anywhere else. Now how much fun can it be to get called names all day and if you are straight, having to feel the body of someone of your same sex.
Also the next time you are in an airport, or anywhere else you have a large number of people, look at them. Now how many would you want to have and give a pat down to. Look at a fat person (no offense intended) would you want to feel in the creases of their rolls? How about a couple times a day.
I'm sure there are some bad agents. Every large company has some bad employees.
But the focus in all this really should be the invasive measures they are using on all Americans who fly.
The stories of groping, pee, kids, and prosthetic's are bad, but they are just the results of a bad policy. The policy of using dangerous x ray machines and frisking people who haven't committed a crime is much for vile then the few bad agents taking advantage of this situation.

Thom - there comes a time that people either have to decide whether they want their rights or they don't. This is the time. You should understand this. You refuse to work for companies that drug test. It's intrusive and a company has no right to ask for your bodily fluids to work for them. It's a corporate demand and it's an unconstitutional one. Why do we have to give up rights for a corporation? Should not a corp have to abide by the laws of the country within which they are operating?

We thank our military for keeping us "free" -- it's a joke. Why should they put their lives on the line for people who refuse to undergo one iota of discomfort to maintain freedom in their own country. Where is OUR sacrifice to save our OWN butts?

Yeah - so the TSA workers don't like the reaction to them being willing, for a price, to take our liberty away from us. They are high school grads who are getting paid more than the going wage so they are more than willing to stand there and grab a crotch and a boob illegally now and again. Are we supposed to cry for these poor sots? If they don't like it that people are not taking well to having them groping us or submitting us to radiation, then let them tell TSA that if they don't straighten out their act they are ALL walking out. What gives them the right to cry about poor us when they are fully cooperative in the efforts to relieve us of our freedoms? Are we also supposed to feel sorry for the poor guy in the van that aims one of those electronic strip searchers into our homes? He doesn't have to. He has completely rejected any moral value of the right of his fellow countrymen to be free and enjoy privacy within the walls of their home -- for a price.

If we don't kill the TSA's little strip search and grope program right now, we are completely and finally owned by corporations. We have our military/industrial complex we were warned about, we have our medical/industrial complex. We are soon to enjoy the full benefit of a food/industrial complex if s510 passes. What's left for us once our medical, food supply, and our very right to the privacy of our own genitals belongs to corporations? What's left Thom?

To any TSA worker who wants to cry because they don't like being called slime for being accomplice to this usurpation of individual freedom and rights -- Go take a flying F*** at a rolling donut.

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bizousoft

14 years ago

This is wrong and even the personel realize it. You can see how the guy is positioned in front of the child. Disgusting

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MikeAmbrosio

14 years ago

You know, what about this... maybe we should get every traveler to do something suspicious to get themselves ALL searched. Overwhelm the TSA.

Couple of days of that crap will send them all running to the hills, screaming like a loon...

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Slin

14 years ago

Hahahaha I love the word sheeple

Most conspiracy theorists use it, heck my dad (who works in a high place in the news) is accused of being a part of these conspiracies all the time.

(note: I don't think this whole thing is right at all, just wanted to point out to people arguing, if you want to be taken seriously, sheeple is the wrong word to use)

To be honest at the age of 11 being strip searched and watched by others wouldn't have bothered me, but it would definitely have bothered most kids.

Fortunately this is an event that doesn't happen often (I think, i'm just basing this assumption off the fact that this got so much coverage and went viral)

If this thing goes viral I could see some changes happening in the future...

Interesting stuff, there's such a fine line that we want between privacy and safety, we all have ideas at where it should lie, and most of them are different.

We can all (well most) agree this is wrong, but where do we draw the line then? On september 11th we all saw what can happen when we are too lax.

A pity that people have to hate and destroy, it ruins so much for the rest of us.

Edit: oh and my brother works in China right now...man, you want to talk about freedoms and injustices? All I can say is i'm so glad I don't live there, every country has it's problems (if you find one without them, please, let me know) but man, they've got some horrible stuff going on over there.

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

This is interesting -- at least a few airports are talking seriously about not using the TSA services altogether, and replacing them with private contractors:

Southeast airports debate TSA vs. contractors *| ajc.com

Surprised the hell out of me -- I didn't realize airports even had that option.
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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

I am not an expert on airport security or Tel Aviv, but it would seem to me that they have, what, one airport to guard as compared to how many we have? Seems they SHOULD be able to do a better job.

We also have more people we could train and put in position than they do.

Plus, those special forces guys over there are some skillful mutha's

Yeah they are! Those guys are so trained that a person can't get to the last of their security layers without being caught -- and nobody even needs to TOUCH them to weed them out.

What WE get is a bunch of sniveling high school grads that would be working at McDonalds if TSA hadn't hired them. There isn't enough clothes in the world we can take off for them that makes me feel safe about those dudes running security. How exactly does some dude with minimal education, minimal training, and very possibly a room temperature IQ violating people's rights by copping a feel of some woman's breast or stripping the clothes off a kid in public make me safe?

Oh and lets look at our system if we do find something possibly explosive -- evacuation of the airport - days worth of delays and upheavals caused and not one guarantee how many people you can move out of hazard fast enough. If something explodes it's death and disruption and costs up the ying.

What do they have in Tel-Aviv? Handy little explosion proof boxes that they just drop the suspicious item into and if it explodes, nobody is hurt and nothing is damaged. The perp is hauled off in custody and life goes on as normal for everyone else.

So now we have another aspect. TSA is making our whole country look like one massive conglomeration of total dip sh*ts. I love looking like a pack of monkeys to the rest of the world. We're gonna be lucky if we aren't crawling with terrorists exploding everything just for a lark to show everyone how deathly stupid Americans are. And in answer to that threat we'll all have vans parked on our street with guys who should be working at Walmarts grinning at their monitors and spanking their monkey while they watch us go potty.

Marx brothers and three stooges couldn't have done this one better themselves.

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MikeAmbrosio

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

We also have more people we could train and put in position than they do.

Yeah they are! Those guys are so trained that a person can't get to the last of their security layers without being caught -- and nobody even needs to TOUCH them to weed them out.

What WE get is a bunch of sniveling high school grads that would be working at McDonalds if TSA hadn't hired them. There isn't enough clothes in the world we can take off for them that makes me feel safe about those dudes running security. How exactly does some dude with minimal education, minimal training, and very possibly a room temperature IQ violating people's rights by copping a feel of some woman's breast or stripping the clothes off a kid in public make me safe?

Oh and lets look at our system if we do find something possibly explosive -- evacuation of the airport - days worth of delays and upheavals caused and not one guarantee how many people you can move out of hazard fast enough. If something explodes it's death and disruption and costs up the ying.

What do they have in Tel-Aviv? Handy little explosion proof boxes that they just drop the suspicious item into and if it explodes, nobody is hurt and nothing is damaged. The perp is hauled off in custody and life goes on as normal for everyone else.

So now we have another aspect. TSA is making our whole country look like one massive conglomeration of total dip sh*ts. I love looking like a pack of monkeys to the rest of the world. We're gonna be lucky if we aren't crawling with terrorists exploding everything just for a lark to show everyone how deathly stupid Americans are. And in answer to that threat we'll all have vans parked on our street with guys who should be working at Walmarts grinning at their monitors and spanking their monkey while they watch us go potty.

Marx brothers and three stooges couldn't have done this one better themselves.

Some good points Sal.

But the real reason we have the TSA is less for security and more to just have yet ANOTHER government agency and another reason to raise taxes. Security is just the mask used for this particular tax and spend plan. That's why Tel Aviv is so much better at it. They are actually serious about it.

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ThomM

14 years ago

You refuse to work for companies that drug test.

Sal you wouldn't smoke for a while because you needed a job and where afraid you wouldn't pass the drug test.
The point being when you are desperate for a job most people will do whatever they can to get a job and will settle for whatever job they can get.
I'd bet most of the TSA agents in the airports don't have a clue what they are doing is unconstitutional.
I also wouldn't be surprised that some of those employees would not be able to support their families and would be homeless without that job.
Plus there are those that really believe they are doing the right thing and protecting air travelers.
The blame in all this shouldn't go to the employee who is trying to feed their family, but to the admins who came up with this.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sal you wouldn't smoke for a while because you needed a job and where afraid you wouldn't pass the drug test.
The point being when you are desperate for a job most people will do whatever they can to get a job and will settle for whatever job they can get.
I'd bet most of the TSA agents in the airports don't have a clue what they are doing is unconstitutional.
I also wouldn't be surprised that some of those employees would not be able to support their families and would be homeless without that job.
Plus there are those that really believe they are doing the right thing and protecting air travelers.
The blame in all this shouldn't go to the employee who is trying to feed their family, but to the admins who came up with this.

They act all holier than thou! On "meet the fockers", there is a scene where a JERK "policeman" TASERS people and lectures them on the taser and how "It is a less than lethal weapon". If the person DIED, they should STILL be held to task!

SO, if an "electrician" miswired your home, started a fire, and you lost a limb and had 3rd degree burns over half your body, you wouldn't hold him/her to task?

Steve

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They act all holier than thou! On "meet the fockers", there is a scene where a JERK "policeman" TASERS people and lectures them on the taser and how "It is a less than lethal weapon". If the person DIED, they should STILL be held to task!

SO, if an "electrician" miswired your home, started a fire, and you lost a limb and had 3rd degree burns over half your body, you wouldn't hold him/her to task?

Steve

Steve, hang out in reality for a while.
First I don't care what a scene from a TV show or movie was.
Second this isn't about agents doing the job wrong, though that's what started this thread, it's about our constitutional rights being destroyed.

Your electrician analogy is just lame and has nothing to do with the subject.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Some good points Sal.

But the real reason we have the TSA is less for security and more to just have yet ANOTHER government agency and another reason to raise taxes. Security is just the mask used for this particular tax and spend plan. That's why Tel Aviv is so much better at it. They are actually serious about it.

Yeah, and ISRAEL isn't "politically correct"!

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Andie

14 years ago

I will say a grateful prayer this Thanksgiving, that I can happily stay home and not personally have to deal with the travel-tragedies-traumas of so-called-security that is for my own good.

(it's all going to he** in a handbasket - with a ribbon on top)
Andie

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Slin

14 years ago

Hahaha OK, I know this is serious and all, but I had to post this, it's just hilarious.

Oh, fair warning, the content while not totally explicit, probably shouldn't be viewed by children or anything, it's more of a spoof off of things with explicit content I guess.

Anyway, enjoy folks

YouTube - REALLY FUNNY!! SNL skit on TSA's...

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

New TSA Slogans:

Grope discounts available.

Can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants.

If we did our job any better, we'd have to buy you dinner first.

Only we know if Lady Gaga is really a lady.

Don't worry, my hands are still warm from the last guy.

Throw a few back at the airport Chili's and you won't even notice.

Wanna fly? Drop your fly.

We've handled more balls than Barney Frank

We are now free to move about your pants

We rub you the wrong way, so you can be on your way.

It's not a grope. It's a freedom pat.

When in doubt, we make you whip it out.

TSA: Touchin', Squeezin', Arrestin'

You were a virgin.

We handle more packages than the USPS

The TSA isn't silly, they just want to inspect your willy

Stroke of the hand, law of the land

No Shirt, No Shoes, No Problem

Let your fingers do the Walking

Cough

Reach out and touch someone

Can you feel me now?

When we're done with you, you'll need a cigarette

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Kay King

14 years ago

I LOVE that list!!!

Free people do not allow themselves to be treated like this. Free people are not either subjected to harmful radiation or groped like slaves. Anyone who thinks this is okay has the mentality of a slave. They are completely owned whether they realize it or not. I can't imagine being forced to allow someone to fondle my private parts and not being allowed to prosecute for it just because I refused to submit to radiation.

Free people set their own parameters. They don't scream just because the guy behind them did. They decide for themselves how far is too far.

I think the TSA workers are probably disgusted with their job - but the idea that you quit isn't one a person with responsibilities can choose. It sounds great to say they can - but if you have children to feed, that's not the path you take.

If I don't like a store, I don't yell at the salesperson. If I don't like food in a restaurant I'm not rude to the server. I will avoid airline travel but I would not be ugly to a TSA worker.

This is the same admin reaction we've had to several issues affecting the public - the public is screaming "NO" and the answer from elected officials is the same as it was with health care, oil spill and other crisis. They tell us we don't like it because they didn't explain well enough so (stupid us) don't understand.

According to the TSA all the way to the WH - the only problem here is failure to communicate in a way our feeble minds can comprehend.

This is the official talking point and it's being repeated by TSA, by Napolitano and by the administration talking heads. It's the old "we know what is best for you" attitude. I've heard it about 10 times on news commentary shows in the past day - "we didn't explain well enough, if people understood they would not have a problem."

In believability - the excuse is right up there with "trust me".

kay

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Kay King 14 years ago

I liked the "fig leaf" underwear because it was entrepreneurial inventiveness.

I wouldn't be rude to the workers - but that underwear is just the kind of thing I would do. Wear it and see what they would decide to do about it...and just act innocent the entire time.

Though I might propose a second design - a fist with a suggestive finger extended....or perhaps a design displaying a really BIG "piece of junk."
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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Getting kind of political here Kay. You ask people not to discuss 9-11 and then you throw in your biased political rants? tch tch

Originally Posted by Kay King

This is the same admin reaction we've had to several issues affecting the public - the public is screaming "NO" and the answer from elected officials is the same as it was with health care, oil spill and other crisis. They tell us we don't like it because they didn't explain well enough so (stupid us) don't understand.

According to the TSA all the way to the WH - the only problem here is failure to communicate in a way our feeble minds can comprehend.

This is the official talking point and it's being repeated by TSA, by Napolitano and by the administration talking heads. It's the old "we know what is best for you" attitude. I've heard it about 10 times on news commentary shows in the past day - "we didn't explain well enough, if people understood they would not have a problem."

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I'm going to go out on a huge limb here and first suggest that everyone please read or re-read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Then you'll understand my next sentence:

What's happening in North America...not just USA, (Canada most certainly) is collectivism gone really bad.

Oh as an aside: Jenn, I'm all for security at airports. But I'm not for invasion of privacy, being treated like cattle, being demeaned in public, being abused.
What has been going on lately is abuse...abuse of power. From the lowly TSA officer (because in the greater scheme of things they are lowly) all the way up to the top. Abuse of power for the sake of money and of course power itself. Power to do what the hell they like. How easy was it to brianwash Americans about terrorist threats after 9/11? Hmmm...

This is exactly what happened in Germany in WWII, when Hitler brainwashed all of Germany. And if people don't see that, they are just blind, I'm sorry too be so blunt.

I might fly one more time and risk a scanner just once: to get out of North America.

Because I don't like what I see in our future here in NA unless people wake the **** up! And from the looks of it, it's not happening anytime soon.

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Ridiculous. Sorry to be so blunt.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

TJ knew about tyranny on personal level, being a life long slave owner. He knew it was wrong too and could have freed his slaves but decided he was too old and tired. What a guy.

That quote is pretty vague really anyways and doesn't make equating the TSA to Nazi Germany during WW2 any better of a statement.

Originally Posted by ThomM

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

TJ knew about tyranny on personal level, being a life long slave owner. He knew it was wrong too and could have freed his slaves but decided he was too old and tired. What a guy.

That quote is pretty vague really anyways and doesn't make equating the TSA to Nazi Germany during WW2 any better of a statement.

Well, disregarding any statements about slarvery, since I don't know the detail to which anyone knows about anything of the sort.

TJs statement quoted is NOT about any one thing. In fact, it all but says that there will be MANY things! It talks about a de-evolution of sorts through various means. The TSA is CLEARLY one of those means! It is yet another limitation! A group decides to commit a heinous crime. It was an ACT OF WAR! The last time that happened the US entered WWII

Yet rather than having that zeal against the enemies, they inconvenience civilians, and/or expose THEM to radiation, search them, and confiscate stuff! IRONICALLY, we did that in WWII to the ENEMY, after THEY flew planes into US territory!

Steve

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, disregarding any statements about slarvery, since I don't know the detail to which anyone knows about anything of the sort.

It's history. It is all true and factual. Are you disputing TJ had slaves or that he had a chance to free them? By the way, he couldn't free them for most of his life because he was heavily in debt and the slaves were tied to that debt. A polish General friend, who was deaply opposed to slavery put into his will that he specifically wanted his money to be used to free TJ's slaves. TJ agreed to in 20 years before the General died, but then when the General died said he didn't want to be the executor of his friend's will because he was too tired and old. At the time he was heavily involved with building the University of Virginia.

Yet rather than having that zeal against the enemies, they inconvenience civilians,

Are you serious? Zeal? How about after invading one country with known links to our attackers, we start a war against a country who had nothing to do with the attacks which resulted in over 4000 US deaths and over 100,000 civilian deaths? That's not enough zeal for you? 8-/
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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

TJ knew about tyranny on personal level, being a life long slave owner. He knew it was wrong too and could have freed his slaves but decided he was too old and tired. What a guy.

That quote is pretty vague really anyways and doesn't make equating the TSA to Nazi Germany during WW2 any better of a statement.

Seriously Tim:confused: Because Jefferson predicted what would happen when our govt became to large he's a bad guy too??
I have never meet someone who loves this government so much more then this country before you.
Though I don't like references to Nazi Germany very much, Karen is closer to the truth with her statement then you will ever see, until it's to late for you.
Even then I can see you in a FEMA camp thanking the govt. for taking care of you.
It's sad when I see an American who the constitution means nothing to.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Seriously Tim:confused: Because Jefferson predicted what would happen when our govt became to large he's a bad guy too??

That quote by TJ has nothing to do with the government growing too large Thom. My reference to the slaves is because I feel it is ironic people keep quoting this guy regarding freedom, liberty and tyranny when he was a hypocrite when it comes to these things. He bought and sold hundreds of slaves in his life and only freed a couple. Read up on it sometime and I bet you will be surprised.

I have never meet someone who loves this government so much more then this country before you.

Our government is part of us actually. It is a big part of what makes our country. TJ was a part of it. What makes him any better than any current politicians?

Though I don't like references to Nazi Germany very much, Karen is closer to the truth with her statement then you will ever see, until it's to late for you.
Even then I can see you in a FEMA camp thanking the govt. for taking care of you.
It's sad when I see an American who the constitution means nothing to.

FEMA camps? Really Thom?!

BTW, I understand the constitution very well and it actually does mean something to me. Especially the way it is written now! The way the founding fathers wrote it was flawed. The constitution is a living document and will always evolve. This helps cover for the ignorance of the people in the past, including some of our founding fathers. My favorite founding fathers btw are Thomas Paine and the Adams.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

That quote by TJ has nothing to do with the government growing too large Thom. My reference to the slaves is because I feel it is ironic people keep quoting this guy regarding freedom, liberty and tyranny when he was a hypocrite when it comes to these things. He bought and sold hundreds of slaves in his life and only freed a couple. Read up on it sometime and I bet you will be surprised.

Our government is part of us actually. It is a big part of what makes our country. TJ was a part of it. What makes him any better than any current politicians?

FEMA camps? Really Thom?!

BTW, I understand the constitution very well and it actually does mean something to me. Especially the way it is written now! The way the founding fathers wrote it was flawed. The constitution is a living document and will always evolve. This helps cover for the ignorance of the people in the past, including some of our founding fathers. My favorite founding fathers btw are Thomas Paine and the Adams.

Tim I know about Jefferson and his slaves, I've been a history buff for years. That doesn't mean he wasn't an intelligent person or does it make everything he said bull. It just gives some people a reason to discredit everything he said.
Our government is part of us, it is a reflection of the people it governs, or it is suppose to be.
Sadly that has changed over the years and it is now a reflection of the corporations, money, and greed in America.
I said FEMA camps because I have a hard time using the words concentration camps. After all my Grandfather and Grandmother almost ended up in the concentration camp the U.S. govt. set up in WW2 for German-Americans.
German American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you understand the constitution very well as you say, you would be able to see how this new TSA policy is a blatant abuse of our 4th amendment rights. You know the part that says we are protected from unwarranted searches. That means we cannot be searched unless we are suspected of committing a crime. So is every American that flies now considered a possible criminal just because they bought an airline ticket?

BTW, I understand the constitution very well and it actually does mean something to me. Especially the way it is written now! The way the founding fathers wrote it was flawed. The constitution is a living document and will always evolve. This helps cover for the ignorance of the people in the past, including some of our founding fathers

So your saying the founders of this country where being ignorant when they wrote the Constitution? So putting in freedom of speech and religion was ignorant? Putting in freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures was ignorant?

Yep way better idea to let the current government just trash that useless piece of paper. Heck how smart can someone who lived 200 years ago be. The current government is so much smarter.

Tim you are the second person in this thread I truly feel sorry for.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

No, they weren't ignorant about those parts of the constitution. Just the parts where they only let certain types of citizens to vote and have equal rights. Yes, Jefferson was intelligent in many ways, but like I said he was also a hypocrite. To quote him on issues of freedom, equality, tryanny just seems wrong to me.

Not sure why you feel sorry for me. I also have problems with what the TSA is doing now, but I think some of the reactions are going way over board.

Originally Posted by ThomM

So your saying the founders of this country where being ignorant when they wrote the Constitution? So putting in freedom of speech and religion was ignorant? Putting in freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures was ignorant?

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HeySal 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Getting kind of political here Kay. You ask people not to discuss 9-11 and then you throw in your biased political rants? tch tch

Nay-saying a political comment is also a political statement, Tim - and I've never seen you miss a chance to tell people how you think about their views that rights are being squelched or lies are being told -- or even asking for deletions if people disagree with you. Believing the "official" story is just as much a political stance as not believing it.

Pot and Kettle, Tim.
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KimW

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

New TSA Slogans:

Grope discounts available.

Can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants.

If we did our job any better, we'd have to buy you dinner first.

Only we know if Lady Gaga is really a lady.

Don't worry, my hands are still warm from the last guy.

Throw a few back at the airport Chili's and you won't even notice.

Wanna fly? Drop your fly.

We've handled more balls than Barney Frank

We are now free to move about your pants

We rub you the wrong way, so you can be on your way.

It's not a grope. It's a freedom pat.

When in doubt, we make you whip it out.

TSA: Touchin', Squeezin', Arrestin'

You were a virgin.

We handle more packages than the USPS

The TSA isn't silly, they just want to inspect your willy

Stroke of the hand, law of the land

No Shirt, No Shoes, No Problem

Let your fingers do the Walking

Cough

Reach out and touch someone

Can you feel me now?

When we're done with you, you'll need a cigarette

Can I steal these,KJ?

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waterotter 14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

Can I steal these,KJ?

Are you having shirts made for everyone here Kim?!
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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

Can I steal these,KJ?

Take 'em. Somebody emailed them to me and I'm just doin' my part to make 'em go viral...
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- KimW 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Bill Farnham
  
  Take 'em. Somebody emailed them to me and I'm just doin' my part to make 'em go viral...
  
  I guess your right KJ.
  
  http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/...erStickers.jpg
  
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HeySal

14 years ago

Kay - you can't equate a bad meal and having your freedom taken away from you. Even if you could - if you get a bad meal, it doesn't effect MY life. You get enough people willing to have their freedom taken - and all of the sudden everyone's freedom suffers. I'm going to yell about that one. Anyone that appreciates the constitution should yell about it.

THOM - Yep. I used to make that mistake. But then they went too far. Now I ask questions. I want to know what % of the management of a company is told to submit to the same intrusion. Usually they don't. Then I write to the local labor board and blast them for allowing corporations to build a class system - discrimination. Then I just stop buying anything that company sells.
At one time I was miffed. Now I am dead angry. I don't like the fact that corporations are now rulers. We are now just more company inventory.

I'm sure that I didn't help the situation by submitting to drug tests when I did. My mistake and I am truly sorry for it and refuse to do it again.
We now have an enhanced version of the patriot act.
We have s510 to fight.
We have agents allowed to come onto your property and place GPS units on your car.
We have vans on the street that strip search you in your car -- they can do the same through the walls of your home.
We have politicians that will pass unconstitutional bills even in the face of majority opposition.
We have a money grab that has gone so far that people are living in tents - and 37 million American people are unable to feed themselves adequately without help.
We have more poison allowed to be dumped into our food and water than anywhere in the world except possibly China.
We have a health care take over that has ripped health care out from under even more people and will continue to do so while draining our financial resources.
We have a bail out that has allowed Gov and Corps to merge and we still are paying for their bloated salaries while workers often don't make a living wage.
We have a government that violates our own laws and refuses to clamp down on a border that they know terrorists and major criminals are using to enter the country. They also let many illegal criminals go without prosecution - and then give them our SS$ when they can't even guarantee we'll get what WE paid into it. They've stolen too much of it and it's just a ponzi scheme that would be illegal if we perpetrated it.
We have bills being written to sequester our speech online.
We have a White House admin under investigation for things like paying journalists to spin info, and corporate ownership of news - with bills that will allow them to wipe out alternative news.
We have databanks where your every move is stored and attempts at the RFID that will allow them to shut you off completely if you don't comply with every one of their whims.

Nope - you won't catch me ever taking a drug test again. You won't catch me at an airport dumping money into a business that openly violates individual rights. You won't see me watching news that is from corporated sources. And you won't see me giving money to a corporation which has had anything to do with unconstitutional surveillance.

I know it's futile because so many just don't give a rip and some even believe that it is not "sensible" to fuss over it, but the PTB have gone so far that they aren't even trying to hide their takeover anymore. If I could do it over again I'd have been fighting harder for the last 20 years. But I can't take it back. I can only do what is right now and hope everyone else's internal alarms finally go off, too.

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ThomM 14 years ago

Sal my point about the drug tests was at that time you needed a job and where willing to submit instead of being homeless and hungry.
People sometimes have to do things they don't want to do to survive.
You and I are lucky in a way as we don't have families that depend on us.
When Chrissy and I first moved into this house I had to make some tough decisions. Some of those went against my values, but fit into society's values.
Though I wasn't happy about them, I excepted them because I knew I had to either do what society deemed proper or put Chrissy in a situation that she didn't deserve to be in.
Remember when my only concerns where keeping a roof over our heads, food, and heat? I felt at that time that being concerned about national matters could wait. After all finding out some one was corrupt didn't put food in the belly where finding out where to get money to buy food would.
What I'm saying is sometimes we are put into positions where we have to do something that we may not like but don't have a choice in.
Again that's why I think the focus here should be on the process that is a blatant violation of our 4th amendment rights and not the workers who are forced to carry it out.
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Karen Blundell 14 years ago

I'm going to go out on a huge limb here and first suggest that everyone please read or re-read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Then you'll understand my next sentence:

What's happening in North America...not just USA, (Canada most certainly) is collectivism gone really bad.

Oh as an aside: Jenn, I'm all for security at airports. But I'm not for invasion of privacy, being treated like cattle, being demeaned in public, being abused.
What has been going on lately is abuse...abuse of power. From the lowly TSA officer (because in the greater scheme of things they are lowly) all the way up to the top. Abuse of power for the sake of money and of course power itself. Power to do what the hell they like. How easy was it to brianwash Americans about terrorist threats after 9/11? Hmmm...

This is exactly what happened in Germany in WWII, when Hitler brainwashed all of Germany. And if people don't see that, they are just blind, I'm sorry too be so blunt.

I might fly one more time and risk a scanner just once: to get out of North America.

Because I don't like what I see in our future here in NA unless people wake the **** up! And from the looks of it, it's not happening anytime soon.
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- TimPhelan 14 years ago
  
  Ridiculous. Sorry to be so blunt.
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  This is exactly what happened in Germany in WWII, when Hitler brainwashed all of Germany.
  
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HeySal

14 years ago

Thom - I understand that. And my counter point was just that once things go far enough that cooperation means relinquishing ones total being to control of someone else, we have to make some tough sacrifices to save our butts -- just like the people in our military do when they put their lives on the line to save what others are now finding excuses not to fight for.

Kids don't like being stripped and groped either. Even before they have the words to express it, they feel the violation of an inappropriate hand. If you sit a kid down that hasn't been completely indoctrinated by the public school system yet and explain that you want to fight against people being able to do that to them and others but it would mean sacrifices and ask them what they want, they will tell you to fight. They will also often help in any way they can. They don't want to be molested either but often feel powerless against adults. Put one on their side and they become very resilient.

Karen -- some Americans aren't going to like what you just said and will scream "Godwin" at you for it -- but if you look around, you will see the people who lived behind the Berlin wall - people who lived through the captivation of Austria, etc. are warning us to stand against what is being done. There are people here naive enough to think we are too special for it to happen to us.....just as many of them did and were proved wrong.

I'm with you - the only reason I would fly is to get the hell out of here, and even then, at this point, I'd be more likely to go by boat. The problem is finding somewhere that the leaders aren't equally perverse. There are getting to be very few places that corporations and government aren't becoming totalitarian powers. People's minds are so programmed to it that saying no to having their rights taken is actually called "civil disobedience" while at the same time a person calling a company strip searching customers "fascist" is labeled as "lunatic fringe" or "conspiracy theorist".

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ThomM

14 years ago

Thom - I understand that. And my counter point was just that once things go far enough that cooperation means relinquishing ones total being to control of someone else, we have to make some tough sacrifices to save our butts -- just like the people in our military do when they put their lives on the line to save what others are now finding excuses not to fight for.

Gotcha and agree.

There are people here naive enough to think we are too special for it to happen to us

I wonder if they aren't just to dependent on the govt. in providing them with everything. Way to many people in this country have given control of their lives to the govt. and won't except that their "great protector" doesn't have their best interests in mind. They are afraid to see the evidence or except it when it's put in front of them.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Gotcha and agree.

I wonder if they aren't just to dependent on the govt. in providing them with everything. Way to many people in this country have given control of their lives to the govt. and won't except that their "great protector" doesn't have their best interests in mind. They are afraid to see the evidence or except it when it's put in front of them.

Yeah - and it's more than just a welfare thing. Every time we have a problem people scream for more legislation instead of just handling things on their own.

I remember when I was a kid and was at the store with my mom she went to buy some lettuce and it was over-priced. She went to Ed (owner, manager) and told him his lettuce could rot on the shelf at that price, and called a few friends and all the sudden women in town were refusing to buy lettuce from him. Know what happened? That shipment got to old to sell. It rotted on the shelf and the next batch was priced lower. We handled corporations on our own.

How about people screaming about companies outsourcing? They still hand them money yet scream for government to do something about outsourcing -- more legislation. Yet all it would take is people refusing to buy from that company for them to stop it. Corporations can't exist without enough paying customers to stay in business. They exist for PROFIT at all costs and will do what is necessary and what they can get away with to obtain it.

So you have a cable monopoly in your area? What if people in that area agree to live without cable for several months? That company pulls out of there and a new one will step in that will be a little more aware of what people won't put up with. So you don't get to watch great TV and have to use dial up for a couple of months - awe, such a sacrifice. If you have a choice of companies, use the one that doesn't outsource - message gets loud when people create trends. Corporations will adjust to anything people demand of them if it means more profit.

Government is the same way - Reps do whatever the hell they want as long as they are getting their cushy salaries and royal privileges. What happens if people just start impeaching the ones that breech their oath of office? How long would it take to get the message across that if they aren't going to act according to what the people want and according to the constitution they aren't going to have jobs - and they won't get their pretty pensions.

The problem right now is not that we are having our rights taken -- it's that we are just blatantly handing them over to them.

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Karen Blundell 14 years ago

It doesn't matter whether people like or don't like the analogy I used. They can call me "Godwin" forever. I agree, Sal. I know the risk I take for being a little bit outspoken. But this stuff needs to be said. We should study history more closely and learn from those who lived through tyranny. That would be very wise.

But people have become so complacent, distracted by shiny new gadgets, the pursuit of money, the entertainment world, etc., and they don't think anything of this stuff. Many people simply don't think at all, until it affects them personally. And then it's too late. Then all hell breaks loose.

that's why getting out seems so appealing to me right about now. Before all hell breaks loose.

and yeah, maybe by boat, but to where? Indeed!
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derrickzv

14 years ago

the guy does the search, plays with the kid then walks off to where? perhaps a little private bathroom time...I swear if that was my kid that ******* would be sitting on his ass...arrest me then!...if I was seen doing this to my own kid in public I would probably be arrested.. it's time America stood up to this BS, it's time Americans took up frikkin arms against this government policy of trying to separate us from our children... I am so sick of this crap already...

pardon the vent, but that video just infuriated me no end...

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Excuse me. But what exactly did that guy do to make you think he played with the kid and then masturbated? That's what you are implying. I didn't see anything there that suggests anything even remotely close to what you are saying.

Originally Posted by derrickzv

the guy does the search, plays with the kid then walks off to where? perhaps a little private bathroom time

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Excuse me. But what exactly did that guy do to make you think he played with the kid and then masturbated? That's what you are implying. I didn't see anything there that suggests anything even remotely close to what you are saying.

Apparently, some instance of this type of devient behavior has already taken place...

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

Ironic that you post that after asking me if I knew The Onion was a comedy/parody site. That masturbation story comes from another comedy/parody site dailysquib. Did you realize this? :-)
I knew when I posted the Oninion story it was a parody. I've posted many Onion stories here before including the Al Qaeda/Truther one.

I first saw this masturbation story on facebook a couple days ago when someone posted it and had about 20 responses from people who were horrified. I went to the site, took a quick look and understood it was pure comedy, especially when I saw at the bottom of the page: "The Daily Squib is a curious satirical publication and should therefore be taken fu**ing seriously "

By the way, here's another parody about this topic from that site:

Perverts Flocking to American Airports for TSA Groping

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Apparently, some instance of this type of devient behavior has already taken place...
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- Kay King 14 years ago
  
  so these scanners are everywhere now? Haven't found one around here at all, is there one around the corner of your house?
  
  No - they aren't - according to a CNN report they are in 69 airports now - but it's planned to have 11,000 of them installed in the next year.
  
  Here's A List of US Airports Currently Using Full Body Scanners
  
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derrickzv

14 years ago

Americans need to get their heads out of their collective asses...this so enrages me, a blinding of the people brought about by fear mongering...cops are already doing the jack boot strut, TSA strip searching kids in public, humiliating both men and women - what's next, behavioral correction camps for disobedient citizens?? WTF?

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Slin

14 years ago

Woohoo! Of course 9/11 had to be an inside job!

I mean, haven't you seen all of those videos with creepy music? And interviews with well known conspiracy theorist scientist?

Oh and the taken out of context sentences of witnesses, gotta love those.

I also love the idea that "Our government is willing to kill a few thousand people to gain power, but not willing to take down our conspiracy websites."

But that's not what this conversation is about..

We are talking about the anger american we all have over this airport security.

Good news?

SNL did a skit about it! You know what that means right? This issue is mainstream, now politicians are gonna have to start changing it, before they don't get re-elected!

Don't you just love the United States Of America system?

Woot!

So your complaining that people aren't speaking out if they are angry? What about you? What are you doing about it?

I'm honestly not all that angry, but maybe it's because being strip searched wouldn't bother me, I would rather be strip searched then have a greater chance of someone bringing a bomb aboard.

I've heard about this new technology that would really help (that one developed in Norway or something) good idea, and I hope someday we'll be using it, but for now, that's just too expensive to put everywhere.

I still feel fine even if I have to be strip searched, like I said, i'm willing to give up that freedom so no one sneaks a bomb on.

But, If you don't feel fine, speak out for yourself! This is an extremely emotional issue, I mean, I don't believe that you can speak factually about where the line between freedom and safety should stand.

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Kay King

14 years ago

I can draw the line between freedom and safety for myself. If you don't mind the intrusion, fine.

But don't forget - the things we are "trying to prevent" didn't originate in the US - they were planes coming in from outside the country. Not sure how frisking flyers in Cinncinnati protects us from a plane originating in Yemen.

This isn't for safety - it's a diversion. It's a reason not to reduce employees at TSA - it's a big profit for ex-govt official(s) - it focuses the public on this issue and away from that lack of checking cargo on passenger planes.

Pilots must be screened each time they fly - but congressional leaders don't, of course. I know which one I'd trust

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ThomM

14 years ago

I still feel fine even if I have to be strip searched, like I said, i'm willing to give up that freedom so no one sneaks a bomb on.

So our Constitution means nothing to you?
You'll give up this freedom, which is your 4th Amendment right

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I truly feel sorry for you.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Slin

Woohoo! Of course 9/11 had to be an inside job!

I mean, haven't you seen all of those videos with creepy music? And interviews with well known conspiracy theorist scientist?

When I said INSIDE job, I meant LITERALLY INSIDE! NOT the government(They are a THIRD party and NOT inside!). I meant the AIRLINE workers left the weapons on the planes! NORMALLY it would be easy but, with felons being hired, it is VERY easy!

I'm honestly not all that angry, but maybe it's because being strip searched wouldn't bother me, I would rather be strip searched then have a greater chance of someone bringing a bomb aboard.

I could go into an airport wearing NOTHING, having NO bags, and STILL kill everyone on a plane, WITHOUT LIFTING A FINGER! So a PERFECT strip search wouldn't work. HECK, there was an NCIS show, that was PERFECTLY VALID in all the facts, about such a thing. A guy tried to kill everyone on the submarine. Realizing the jig was up, he went to plan B! He suffocated himself! YEP! He KILLED HIMSELF to kill EVERYONE! HOW? he swallowed a capsule with a deadly gas that was callibrated to release the gas when it got below a certain temperature. Since that is a health issue, and they had to be underwater, they moved the body to the FREEZER!!!!!! Oh, there are FAR simpler ways to do it, but it goes to show!

And I guess you are OK with missing the plane ALSO?

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Apparently this guy got out of the airport without being scanned or groped:

http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but the story is told in a matter of fact way, no sensationalism or anything, so benefit of the doubt applies.

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sparckyz

14 years ago

OMG!!

Out of all the people starving and dying in agony all over the world. And you're all up-in-arms over an "odd body search"

WTH???

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sparckyz

OMG!!

Out of all the people starving and dying in agony all over the world. And you're all up-in-arms over an "odd body search" WTH???

Out of ALL the people that died, were killed, etc, through the black plague, etc.... you're up in arms over people starving!?!?!?!?

SERIOUSLY, iff we are to follow the "logic" in your statement, you must follow it in mine, and things fall apart!

It IS more than a body search.

Steve
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- Kay King 14 years ago
  
  Out of all the people starving and dying in agony all over the world. And you're all up-in-arms over an "odd body search" WTH???
  
  My mother used to say "eat all your food because children are starving in China". If I ate more food - did a starving person feel better? Makes about as much sense.
  
  Some people sit and agonize over things out of their control and then feel good about themselves for "caring". Oh - and then they criticize others for not caring enough....to much political correctness for my blood. People will always be starving and dying somewhere - that never changes.
  
  kay
  
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KimW 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sparckyz

OMG!!

Out of all the people starving and dying in agony all over the world. And you're all up-in-arms over an "odd body search" WTH???

OMG, NO, we are worried about our constitutional rights!
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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Airport security cartoons from as far back as 1938.

scroll down the page a bit to view.

News Desk: Before the Junk Jokes: Airport Security Cartoons : The New Yorker

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

That "Yea, but it doesn't SMELL like a bomb" one is priceless...
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HeySal

14 years ago

I also love the idea that "Our government is willing to kill a few thousand people to gain power, but not willing to take down our conspiracy websites."

Actually - they are trying to do that. Senator Wyden of OR just stopped one yesterday. But it will be back next year when the new congress takes over.
In fact there are several bills that threaten free speech. Not only do you not care if you have rights, you don't follow what is going on in legislation either.
Exactly what country do YOU reside in anyway? I'm betting it's not the US.

In fact - what I don't understand is why we have the Travel With Dignity bill slammed into legislation now in reaction to this obscenity. Why do we need legislation to be able to tell someone they can't abuse rights we already hold? Why do they need to GIVE us rights if we already hold them? This whole situation gets scary every time I look at it.

And don't forget - these scanners are not only in airports. Airports are just the public unveiling of the machines. They are being deployed on our streets in vans. They can watch you in your home. Once one of those vans is on the street in your town you will never again be able to use the toilet, take a bath, or make love to your spouse with any assurity that you doing so without an audience. If this stuff doesn't scare you as much as terrorists, I think you need to stop drinking your tap water.

We won't know the real story of 9/11 until we have an independent investigation ----
But to whoever it was that caused, and allowed to be caused, the Twin Towers destruction:

Congratulations. You won.

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

But to whoever it was that caused, and allowed to be caused, the Twin Towers destruction:

Congratulations. You won.

I said this practically on 9/12! I mean they are called TERRORISTS people! They did NOT hijack those plans and hit the towers to destroy the towers. Tey did it to start the kind of stuff that is happening! To TERRORIZE many, and inconvenience/endanger the rest.

As for the laws? MANY of the laws, of the last 2 centuries, on the books are clarifications of, duplicates of, or work arounds for, the amendments and the constitution. MANY others are in VIOLATION of them!

As for those that think this is overblown? You don't know brainwashing or politics 101.... START SLOW! HECK, watch stalag 17 some time, or the great escape, or HEY, they did effectively a SPOOF on stalag 17, and IT'S a comedy, watch "hogan's heroes"! The SAME thing happened in NAZI germany. Call it a godwin reference, but it is true. The same thing happened here with income tax, social security, etc... Heck, bribing, extortion, etc,.. all the same. Even little kids try to push and push and push.

Or there is the proverb about cooking a live frog. Turn the heat up SLOWLY! He'll like it and, by the time it gets too hot, he'll be unable to jump out..

Steve
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waterotter 14 years ago

And to think all the perverts that are lining up and filling out job application forms, will not be subjected to this humiliation - albeit, they would probably get some sick pleasure out of it. Sure enough, this line of work will be right up their alley. Scary.
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Slin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Actually - they are trying to do that. Senator Wyden of OR just stopped one yesterday. But it will be back next year when the new congress takes over.
In fact there are several bills that threaten free speech. Not only do you not care if you have rights, you don't follow what is going on in legislation either.
Exactly what country do YOU reside in anyway? I'm betting it's not the US.

In fact - what I don't understand is why we have the Travel With Dignity bill slammed into legislation now in reaction to this obscenity. Why do we need legislation to be able to tell someone they can't abuse rights we already hold? Why do they need to GIVE us rights if we already hold them? This whole situation gets scary every time I look at it.

And don't forget - these scanners are not only in airports. Airports are just the public unveiling of the machines. They are being deployed on our streets in vans. They can watch you in your home. Once one of those vans is on the street in your town you will never again be able to use the toilet, take a bath, or make love to your spouse with any assurity that you doing so without an audience. If this stuff doesn't scare you as much as terrorists, I think you need to stop drinking your tap water.

We won't know the real story of 9/11 until we have an independent investigation ----
But to whoever it was that caused, and allowed to be caused, the Twin Towers destruction:

Congratulations. You won.

Yeah there are always some crazy bills that try to go through, notice that it didn't make it?

If this "inside" job isn't afraid of breaking laws and flying planes into buildings, why would they be afraid of hacking into and shutting down some sites?

I do live in the U.S. My dad works in a high up place n the media, he gets accused of being a part of these conspiracies all the time

Travel with dignity makes total sense from a law perspective, you need to spell out what's allowed, not just assume.

Hmmm, so these scanners are everywhere now? Haven't found one around here at all, is there one around the corner of your house?

Or is your point that they are out there and we don't know it, which will get us into circular logic (neither of us can prove it either way)

Woot! Go conspiracy theories, as long as you don't use words like "illuminati" your fine though

But really your points are valid and logical, these are just my own thoughts

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Slin

Yeah there are always some crazy bills that try to go through, notice that it didn't make it?

If this "inside" job isn't afraid of breaking laws and flying planes into buildings, why would they be afraid of hacking into and shutting down some sites?

I do live in the U.S. My dad works in a high up place n the media, he gets accused of being a part of these conspiracies all the time

Travel with dignity makes total sense from a law perspective, you need to spell out what's allowed, not just assume.

Hmmm, so these scanners are everywhere now? Haven't found one around here at all, is there one around the corner of your house?

Or is your point that they are out there and we don't know it, which will get us into circular logic (neither of us can prove it either way)

Woot! Go conspiracy theories, as long as you don't use words like "illuminati" your fine though

But really your points are valid and logical, these are just my own thoughts

As far as the bill not making it ---- it's not dead. He was only able to stop it until the new senate is in next year. Then we have to fight it -- judges already passed it in ---- unanimously. It's a nightmare bill for ANYONE online with a website. It's a nightmare for anyone who wants to be able to read news that isn't published by a corporate source - and one on the side of the admin.

Secondly - I'm not sure if or how many vans are actually on the street at this time. There is a company that builds them and they are already selling them -- um....to whom? Since they are being built and bought already, I would assume that they are on the streets already. I can't remember the price but they are spendy so it's not like every police department can just go pick up several right away- I hope.

I'm also not sure how much radiation that someone would absorb when the rays pass through their homes or cars, but it has to reach or they wouldn't get images. So what if one of the van drivers turns out to be a perv who keeps a continuous wave on someone's house for awhile?

Steve -- they already KNOW the things are dangerous. Even in hospitals the x-ray techs leave the room to take the pictures to keep from getting dosed and those things don't put out nearly as much radiation. They just got done investigating hospital equip and went ballistic over the miss handling and radiation overdosing going on via mammographs etc and those things have much lower doses of radiation that the scanners do.

TSA is going to have lawsuits coming in from employees before too long when they start to get sick from the radiation they are being dosed with after taking pics all day, too, unless those people are being protected by a lead wall - the stuff passes through regular walls or they wouldn't be able to see in your house with them. That's probably one of the reasons their hiring requirements are so low - high school and no experience. You won't catch an unemployed x-ray tech jumping to TSA for a job. They know better. That's our Security folks - top notch intelligence. High school and no experience necessary.

Once I start seeing vans driving up and down MY street, I'm redoing my bedroom and bathroom walls in tinfoil. Yeah - I said that. It's time for tinfoil.

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Adam Roy

14 years ago

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ThomM 14 years ago

Do you not remember on Christmas, when that Nigerian dude had LIQUID explosives in his underwear? Sorry, but that's real.

So every American should give up their rights under the Constitution because of what some one from another country did?
Sorry I'm not buying that.
I've got nothing against airports and airplanes being safer, but illegal searches isn't how to do it.
How about this, we don't allow anyone who isn't a U.S. citizen fly in the U.S.
I mean really, so far every time a plane in the U.S. has either been hijacked and used as a weapon (9/11) or has attempted to be used as a weapon (shoe bomber and underwear bomber) they have been from another country.
Or how about this.
The guy who loaded the SUV with explosives in NYC was an American citizen.
How about we set up check points on every road, street, and highway and every time you get in your car to go to the store you have to be searched and have your car searched.
But why stop there, if every American is assumed to be a potential terrorist why not just allow the police to search your house whenever you leave home.
Screw our rights, it's better to be safe and protected, right?
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cosmoslad

14 years ago

It's our fault, if you step back and look at it.
For 9 years we have allowed our government to run roughshod over our rights, all in the name of Homeland Security. Threat levels being heightened around elections, warrant-less wiretaps and arrests. No one is denying that there are threats, but we haven't stood up and said enough.
My son and I were traveling to Boston a short time ago, before this latest round of horrors. The wizards from TSA pulled an elderly lady out of the line, wanded her, made her take off her bonnet (stereotyping here-I believe she was Amish or a similar group) and then had her frisked. She hadn't gone through the metal detector and here carry on bag consisted of her purse. Quite the high profile target. Of course, I stood around like the other spineless sheep and didn't say a word.
Speaking up and complaining does not make us un-American and it does not mean we want the terrorists to win, regardless of what professional whiners like Rush L and Sean H may scream. There have always been freaks who want to use airplanes to further their cause (anybody remember all of the Cuban hijackings in the 70s and 80s?) but common sense stops 99.9% of those.
We have to stop being so meek and afraid.

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Kay King

14 years ago

when that Nigerian dude had LIQUID explosives in his underwear?

The flight didn't originate from a US airport so how would a pat down in the US have changed that? Will we now demand that any country with flights in the US must also follow our new procedures?

Common sense just disappears when people hear the word "terrorism" - a fear that has been played up now for nine years.

Yes, we need to be alert and cautious and smart. We don't need to be having knee jerk gasps every time the word "terror" is mentioned. We need to ask "why now" when for no discernible reason there is a change that further infringes on our rights. If you keep chipping away at something - removing a bit here and a little there - eventually there is nothing left.

We were warned - we ignored it - we were attacked. Experts had said cockpit doors should be kept locked - no one took it seriously. No one wants to think about it - but there are warnings now that are being ignored while these new regulations are put in place.

How safe are you if every person has been scanned or groped and is "clean" - and only 2% of the baggage in the hold has been checked?
That's where we are right now according to flight security experts.

I went through two security checkpoint during flights in September. I had forgotten an 8-9 steel nail file (strong - sharp point) in my purse. I didn't remember it until I found it - still in my purse - a couple weeks later.

Airport security at two airports (cincinnati and atlanta) didn't notice it either...but they did check my shoes closely.:p

kay

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The flight didn't originate from a US airport so how would a pat down in the US have changed that? Will we now demand that any country with flights in the US must also follow our new procedures?

GOOD POINT! That means redesigning EVERYTHING or opening up new airports UNLESS, ***UNLESS***, ****UNLESS****, they have EVERYONE follow the new procedures REGARDLESS of where they appear to be going.

We were warned - we ignored it - we were attacked. Experts had said cockpit doors should be kept locked - no one took it seriously. No one wants to think about it - but there are warnings now that are being ignored while these new regulations are put in place.

AGAIN, a worthwhile lock would require a redesign of all the planes, unless the pilots can avoid going to the restroom, and don't need any help, etc... I have seen several pilots take advantage of the facilities, etc... A WEAKNESS to the door policy!

How safe are you if every person has been scanned or groped and is "clean" - and only 2% of the baggage in the hold has been checked?
That's where we are right now according to flight security experts.

GOOD POINT! Baggage is misrouted, etc...

I went through two security checkpoint during flights in September. I had forgotten an 8-9 steel nail file (strong - sharp point) in my purse. I didn't remember it until I found it - still in my purse - a couple weeks later.

Airport security at two airports (cincinnati and atlanta) didn't notice it either...but they did check my shoes closely.:p

kay

To those that don't know, the US is large and flying the same planes everywhere is unreasonable. So we have a hub and spoke concept on most flights. Two of the biggest hubs are cincinnati and atlanta, and 2 of about 4 delta has. Perhaps the only other ones I have been through are dallas, detroit(the other 2 main delta hubs), pittsburg and philadelphia(US AIR), O'HARE in chicago(American and UNITED), and midway in chicago(ATA and a few others).

ANYWAY, cincinnati and atlanta get a LOT of traffic from all over the world.

Steve

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

GOOD POINT! Baggage is misrouted, etc...

The last time I flew I was at the check-in counter and I asked the nice lady if they could route the large black suitecase I was checking in to Houston.

I also asked if they could route the smaller brown suitecase to Toledo and the blue carry-on I was checking in so I could carry-on my camera bag to the Dallas-Fort Worth terminal.

Since I was flying to Boston she adamantly insisted they couldn't do that.

That's weird, I told her..they did it last time I flew with them...
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HeySal

14 years ago

People making excuses to justify this -- get some dignity. Cowards are just disgusting. Go home and stay there. Cower in private, we don't want to watch you grovel. It's embarrassing. There is nowhere for you to go that is perfectly safe no matter what you allow to be done to yourself or your children.

Just stay at home and out of sight so terrorists (and our own officials) won't see us as easy targets anymore. Your lack of fortitude is not only embarrassing - it's dangerous to the rest of us.

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seasoned

14 years ago

You know, I have ACTUALLY seen shoes, and keychain fobs, among other things, that have WEAPONS built into them, and they are hard to spot! A NECKLACE could be a weapon. HECK, just from what I have SEEN, or seen ADVERTISED, or practical things on TV, etc.... there are LOTS of things that just CAN'T be reasonably detected. HECK, now that I think of it, I could EASILY make one from a tin can, and hide it in plain sight! The ONLY reliable way is a cursory check of all, like they DID do, and a thorough BACKGROUND check of suspicious people, people that fit the profile, or foreigners, which they INTENTIONALLY avoid due to "political correctness".

HECK, I have forgotten stuff(that with a minor change could be DEADLY), and been unable to find it for WEEKS! Some was NOT metalic, so HOW would the agents see it, especially if it didn't appear dangerous. SOME "CONTRABAND" was ****VERY**** obvious, and STILL made it through security.

HOW obvious? Well, recently, I took a full 20oz soda through! About 40 years ago, I took a LARGE visegrip wrench(made of METAL) through the metal detector! My father had a nice laugh at that one, since we went to see his family.

So the BEST way to improve security is to look at the PEOPLE rather than the possessions. HEY, the Israelis say the SAME thing!

BTW in case you are curious as to WHY I was looking at weapons, etc... Some were advertised for WOMEN as self defense in case they are raped, etc... ALSO, I have read a number of gun and martial arts publications, and guns and shurikens are not the ONLY things in the ads! BTW some shurikens could be passed off as ornaments or art.

Heck, I once saw some show where they had a machine that could supposedly detect any element and analyze danger. It detected a very dangerous substance on this guy, determined it was safe, and let him pass. The problem was that the DANGER was like the fourth step! The liquid could combine with another liquid in the protected area, and cause a reaction which like shorted out the wiring or gummed up the works. Basically, the machine was soon HISTORY! How can you expect those stupid TSA agents to be better?

Steve

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Dave Patterson

14 years ago

Whats the problem?

I went to three different airports today....just to get groped.

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HeySal 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

Whats the problem?

I went to three different airports today....just to get groped.

WARNING TO US AIRLINE PASSENGERS:

Please note that as of today, 11/25/2010, it is now a felony to be groped by TSA personnel. If you are apprehended with a TSA agent's hand on your crotch, breast, or glutius maximus after buying an airline ticket, you will be charged with illegally soliciting prostitution services. The price of your ticket does not include sexual services.

This warning is null and void in airports in key locations of Nevada.
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Andie 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

Whats the problem?

I went to three different airports today....just to get groped.

that thought crossed my mind.............
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seasoned

14 years ago

NOTE!!!!!!!!! On the news today, they have said that the back scatter radiation scanners present 30 TIMES the allowable limit of radiation and that about 30 runs will exceed the yearly limit of radiation!

TSA Airport Scanner FAQ - The Truth About TSA Scanners - Popular Mechanics

Biochemist says 'naked' X-ray scanner may be unsafe | Privacy Inc. - CNET News

Steve

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Errr. This is what I read from the first link: "The Rapiscan Secure 1000 serves up about 3 microrems per scan, according to the TSA. Francis Masse, director of the MIT Radiation Protection Office considers 5000 millirems (equal to 5,000,000 microrems) of annual radiation exposure adequately safe.

Maurine Fanguy, of the TSA's Office of Security Technology has said it would require "thousands and thousands" of advanced imaging technology (AIT) inspections to equal "one chest X-ray" (around 3300 by our estimates)."

Do you read from the links you post?

Originally Posted by seasoned

NOTE!!!!!!!!! On the news today, they have said that the back scatter radiation scanners present 30 TIMES the allowable limit of radiation and that about 30 runs will exceed the yearly limit of radiation!

TSA Airport Scanner FAQ - The Truth About TSA Scanners - Popular Mechanics

Biochemist says 'naked' X-ray scanner may be unsafe | Privacy Inc. - CNET News

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Errr. This is what I read from the first link: "The Rapiscan Secure 1000 serves up about 3 microrems per scan, according to the TSA. Francis Masse, director of the MIT Radiation Protection Office considers 5000 millirems (equal to 5,000,000 microrems) of annual radiation exposure adequately safe.

Maurine Fanguy, of the TSA's Office of Security Technology has said it would require "thousands and thousands" of advanced imaging technology (AIT) inspections to equal "one chest X-ray" (around 3300 by our estimates)."

Do you read from the links you post?

Be our guest to go ahead and test the validity of that information. I haven't read Steve's links on that one. I talked to a scientist friend of mine and he said not to stand in front of one of those things -- he said a few very technical things I didn't understand, too but I don't care. He said "don't ever stand in front of one of those things" and this guy is the one I trust. The military uses equipment he invented to save lives. Everything else I hear is just propaganda as far as I am concerned.

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Karen Blundell 14 years ago

there's always people who'll try to downplay the dangers of radiation. The fact of the matter is, it's freaking dangerous, and it's one of the reasons I don't get an annual mammogram anymore, use my cellphone only for emergencies, (and that's usuallly to text my son, lol), and I am getting rid of my microwave and buying a toaster oven instead.

It's also the reason why radiation and chemo cancer treatments eventually fail, because the radiation weakens cancer patients' immune system so much that the body's natural healing ability is destroyed. Meanwhile cancer can be completely cured naturally....oh, don't get me started.

The name of the game is money. Everything is always about money. The governments are run by big corporations who don't give a flying fig about anyone's health and safety. Their only concern is profits. And they will lie through their teeth to ensure continued profits.

for all you people who think the TSA scanner is a good thing, great...think what you want. It's your health and your life. But don't try to convince me that it's for my own safety, or that my privacy rights haven't been violated if I opt out of the scanner and have to succumb to intrusive "pat-downs"

just think about this for a second...they already did a test on how completely they could control, ostracize, demean, one group of people: smokers. They were a test group. A small minority of people some of whom weren't even smokers, saw the new draconian non-smoking laws for what they were: the stripping of rights of law-abiding citizens albeit with a bad habit, lobbyists with lots of money pandering to governments, and governments accepting the payolla, and passing the no-smoking laws.

And it worked, because people just accepted those laws for the most part and they conformed.

This time the target group is air-travellers, because, oh my god, one of those just might be a terrorist! Please! It's been proven over and over again that terrorists can still hide explosives even with these scanners in place.

This type of stuff (the stripping of personal rights) isn't going to stop, not unless the majority of people wake up and insist that we have governments that serve not control us. It's time to end nanny stateism, because it leads to tyranny and the end of any freedoms that we are entitled to.

And to those who say we aren't entitled to those freedoms, I say: every man, woman and child in this universe deserves and is entitled to freedom, health, love, abundance, security. And that is a universal law created by a higher power, one I won't argue with.
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seasoned

14 years ago

Slin,

Your father did a GREAT job of brainwashing you! And WOW, he must do a LOT if they are accusing HIM of being involved with the conspiracy. USUALLY they just accuse the media INDUSTRY of cherry picking and "spinning".

Just a couple days ago I heard them work with a reoresentative to SPIN the facts. He did a GREAT job! He ACTUALLY sounded SANE! But I saw him on the floor of the house, he was on the news, I saw him speaking with reporters, etc... So I know the whole thing was a LIE! MAYBE, now that he LOST the reelection, he got some meds, etc...

The media had an OBLIGATION to call him on his lies, and they DIDN'T.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

As for ZEAL? We could have hit them so much harder with fewer casualties on our side, and could have shut down their infrastructure. It would have been cheaper too. But it seemed like people wanted to be unrealistically precise.

Yeah, I DO read them. I meant to put into the post that the first one brings up the idea of the pilots being afraid. WHO CARES if they fly a lot. I have known people that might fly more often than the pilots as it pertains to this subject. Let's say a person flies to make a sale, and comes back in the same day. He has TWO scans that day, and the pilot has one. ALSO, pilots are sometimes practically waved through, even having a special "line". Remember, we are not REALLY talking about how often they fly in a plane, but how often they go through security. The average pilot does that ONCE per day. A flyer might have to do that on each LEG of the journey, but certainly does it both ways, even if they happen to be on the same day.

As for the news program I saw, I ddin't note the actual channel per se. It looked like Channel 2, and it WAS directed to san jose, ca. However, I picked the best link I saw in the first few pages.

As to intensity, it is interesting. SOME indicate a dosage over 1000 times what others indicate. There didn't seem to be any consensus. Still, I just don't trust it.

I asked Lahey clinic about their CT scanners, since they had rescanned me, etc...., AND....Well, I will save that for the PUNCHLINE! They had a guy, who assumed a lot because he didn't speak english well, so things were just MANGLED, and he said it was IMPOSSIBLE for the machines to be miscalibrated and he wouldn't show me the supposedly LARGE(Many thousands of pages) configuration documents unless I read it there in front of him. The guy sounded like a real jerk, and I imagine there are a LOT of misunderstandings between he and his coworkers. Anyway, the punchline? One of the largest makers of CT machines at the time was in the news because of patients that suffered due to miscalibration. MAN I wish I could find the links for that right now. But WHY would he think the Siemens ones are SO much better than GE? He ADMITTED they had to be calibrated.

Heysal,

The backscatter supposedly directs the beam in a fine stream, etc... If so, it is conceivable that they may be safe. But YEAH, radiation isn't necessarily that reliable. People are probably as little as 4 feet away from the machine, and both sides are open. I call them sides because that is how it would appear if you were inside, and they DO call them BACK scatter. That WOULD be funny, if they all started reporting problems. It may take like 10+ times as many exposures as the flyers, because of distance, etc...

It is funny. ****DECADES**** ago they had flouroscopes! NEAT looking devices. Fluoroscopy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Frankly, I am shocked that the article says they are STILL used BUT, look deeper. It speaks of how injuries have been noted, they are supposed to LIMIT exposure, and they are used substantially only when it is determined to be useful in saving lives.

The use of X-rays, a form of ionizing radiation, requires the potential risks from a procedure to be carefully balanced with the benefits of the procedure to the patient. While physicians always try to use low dose rates during fluoroscopic procedures, the length of a typical procedure often results in a relatively high absorbed dose to the patient. Recent advances include the digitization of the images captured and flat-panel detector systems which reduce the radiation dose to the patient still further.

It ALSO mentions about how a patient's size, length of time, etc... can substantially increase the REAL dose. Do we know how the scanners are triggered, or even if there are policies concerning how they should limit things? HEY, look at this:

Shoe-fitting fluoroscopes, also Pedoscopes, were X-ray fluoroscope machines installed in shoe stores from the 1920s until about the 1960s in the United States (by which time they were prohibited), and into the mid-1970s in the United Kingdom.[1] In the UK, they were known as Pedoscopes, after the company based in St. Albans that manufactured them.[2] Fluoroscopes were also used in shoe stores in continental Europe.

GEE, I wonder why they prohibited them!

BTW radiologists have to get a license, and get paid rather well. They wouldn't want to work as a TSA agent.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

You're right Karen. What I've been thinking about is how damned long it took them to admit that cell phone radiation can induce brain tumors. We were told endlessly that it was no problem - not strong enough, yadda yadda - then all of the sudden the doctors started getting up about it and they finally admit that the things can cause brain tumors.

Now - think of this. Tim just quoted figures that say how low the dose is. Okay - you go to a hospital and they put you in front of the machine and then leave the room to give you the x-ray, which is known to be an amount that is hazardous when exposed too frequently.

Now we have a machine that is strong enough to penetrate your home walls from a distance of at least the street. How strong does it have to be to do that? == This isn't hypothetical, I really don't know. How much stronger would the radiation have to be? What are they standing people up in front of?

If they wouldn't admit that cell phones are dangerous - and they don't like admitting cell phone towers are dangerous still...........how long will it be before they admit that these machines are hazardous and how many people will be sick from overdose before they will come clean? The first day of those scanners I saw a LOT of info about the dangers......all the sudden you couldn't get back to the links again, then a few days later they are saying that it's not a problem. Bull ****. With the public outcry - and legislation even induced to end this crap, none of them are going to just come out and say "oh yeah, by the way, when your hair starts falling out, remember it was for your own safety".

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seasoned

14 years ago

Well, people joke about how EMR(Microwave transmitters, cell phones, microwave ovens, milliwave body scanners, etc...) CAN cause problems, but it PALES to atomic radiation(xrays, back scatter body scanner, atom bombs, nuclear reactors, food radiation, etc...).

The smoker bit is funny. You shouldn't be upset with the people trying to keep you from polluting the air. You should be angry with the society that got you adicted to smoking!

Heysal,

I'm sure you realize it, but it is harder for the Xrays to go through sheet rock than it is to go through cllothing and/or skin. SO, if you were right up against the wall, you could bet that it would take more than 5 times the level. But I don't even know how that would work with xrays. They generally have a plate, film, or radiation sensitive sensor on the other side to get the image. The back scatter, xray film, flouroscope, etc... ALL work that way. So how could they do that in the truck you mentioned?

This does remind me of a question I had though! My clothes are relatively thin. HECK, they use this technology to see stuff INSIDE the body. The last time I had to be checked, they used IT instead of the CT! They NOT ONLY could see my aorta and valve, but the heart and even determine how fast the blood was moving! It has been used MANY decades and is generally HARMLESS! WHY don't they use it here? WHAT technology? SONAR! GEE, they used it to look at my heart. They use it to look at babies in the womb. They use it on subs to detect threats.

BTW they DID try to limit drinking ALSO. I STILL wonder if that wasn't planned though. Some people got AWFULLY rich from that, and people turned a blind eye. Later they reversed it, and never spoke of prohibiting things like that again.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Ah guys..... I tried to search a bit more....

LISTS CONCERNS:

Feds Dismiss Misconduct Claims At FDA Device Unit - Health News Story - KTVU San Francisco

AIRLINES don't want same treatment!

Pilots Among Those Dismayed At Scanners, Pat-Downs - Money News Story - KTVU San Francisco

One 20-year airline pilot, Patrick Smith, recalled once being stopped and questioned because he had a butter knife in a bag.

"If a pilot like me is going to be up to no good, why would he need a butter knife?" he said. "I'm in control of the entire airplane!"

EXACTLY! And frequent flyers could say similar things. One time flyers, and ground crew, on the other hand are probably good candidates.

OVERDOSE likely!

OAKLAND: Study Shows New TSA Scanners Likely Exceed Recommended Radiation Levels - Video - KTVU San Francisco

KTVU is a normal NORTH CALIFORNIA channel!

BTW PLEASE notice that they reported everything just as I said.

Steve

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Sumit Menon

14 years ago

Hehe... This is the best thread since, "Free Gift For The Last Poster". Someday I'll read the entire thing. Right now, I'm just reading KJ's posts... LMAO!

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seasoned

14 years ago

OK, when will I wake up? I mean some stuff is so incredibly crazy that WELL, I have seen FANTASY movies that seem more real! UNREAL!

I have to tell you, there are at least 6 major groups that want the US to change in a way that would be against the other 5 groups AND, they believe that the resources will remain the same, though they can NOT! Like the black group(NOT counted in the above 6) that wants $1000,000 USD, property, etc... COULD YOU IMAGINE?

TOTAL POPULATION(LOW) 310,232,863
BLACK(LOW) 12.85%
BLACKS >39,864,923

SO, do YOU think the US could hand out over 40 TRILLION dollars and have the dollar's value unaffected? I DOUBT IT! In reality, those people would get very little real increase, everyone else would greatly lose, and the US would probably be obliterated as a nation.

That is just ONE request from one group that I didn't even bother to include in my original numbers. AND you can bet that blacks are undercounted especially as there are many immigrants that could claim black heritage, that currently don't. BTW I DID count blacks in the 6, but their demands are FAR more reasonable than the $1000,000USD each, etc... How about the group that basically wants us to become part of mexico? Or the group that wants us to have sharia law?

I could just imagine a world trying to accomodate ALL their wishes. NO freedom, NO credit, NO real ability to buy things, and NOBODY would fit in. People woould have a LOT of big numbers in accounts, but NO value. AGAIN, I'm not even including the $1000,000+ group!

Steve

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

This is now becoming international.

Kiwi refuses 'naked' body scan - travel | Stuff.co.nz

In New Zealand the body scanners are prohibited under the Aviation Crimes Act.

Hmm.

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Kay King

14 years ago

Tim -

I'm not well versed on radiation dosages or what those machines produce so haven't yet formed an opinion on the "safety" area of this.

However, thalidomide and many other products people were exposed to were trusted by tens of thousands because a government agency said they were "safe". Today we have massive recalls and lawsuits over meds that were tested and labeled for safety by the FDA. Some have been in use for years.

We used to allow people to view (from seats in the desert) nuclear explosions as we could make the bombs but didn't know the danger. Now we know we were killing those "privileged" spectators.

I won't blindly say these machines are dangerous but I certainly would not blindly assume they aren't based on TSA info. They do have a big dog in the hunt, after all.

If I were a frequent flyer, I'd been checking the facts like crazy - and opting out of scans. I'd also want to know if the scanners emit the radiation to the area around the machine, too.

kay

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

We used to allow people to view (from seats in the desert) nuclear explosions as we could make the bombs but didn't know the danger. Now we know we were killing those "privileged" spectators.

I'm aware this is totally anecdotal, but I remember reading a few decades ago about a movie that John Wayne starred in that was made in the desert where something like 147 of the 180 people on the set had died of cancer at the time of the writing.

The set was in or around an area where nukes had been tested.

It was a startling revelation about the dangers of radiation that people had not taken into account up until then.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

I'm aware this is totally anecdotal, but I remember reading a few decades ago about a movie that John Wayne starred in that was made in the desert where something like 147 of the 180 people on the set had died of cancer at the time of the writing.

The set was in or around an area where nukes had been tested.

It was a startling revelation about the dangers of radiation that people had not taken into account up until then.

And death is the LAST thing that happens. There are basically like 4 levels of danger of radioactivity....

1/2. Genetic damage or "minor" cell death. It may result in sterility or affect something else, but may not be detected for YEARS!
3. Cancer, which is often a result of such damage.
4. DEATH.

So if the 147 died because of radiation, it was the WORST type. The other 33 could STILL have been affected, but just may not have died. And NOBODY is saying the body scanners will actually kill a PERSON, but that is a HUGE stretch even from CANCER which is HUGE stretch from cell damage, etc...

Steve

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

I'm aware this is totally anecdotal, but I remember reading a few decades ago about a movie that John Wayne starred in that was made in the desert where something like 147 of the 180 people on the set had died of cancer at the time of the writing.

The set was in or around an area where nukes had been tested.

It was a startling revelation about the dangers of radiation that people had not taken into account up until then.

The movie was "The Conqueror" about Genghis Khan.

This film is listed among The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made in Golden Raspberry Award founder John Wilson's book THE OFFICIAL RAZZIE® MOVIE GUIDE.

Picture a Mongol warlord saying "Now listen here pilgrim", or "Fill your hands you son of a b1tch".

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

I agree. I want to have more testing on these machines also. Earlier I was just comenting on the link Steve posted which showed just the opposite of what he was saying.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Tim -
I won't blindly say these machines are dangerous but I certainly would not blindly assume they aren't based on TSA info. They do have a big dog in the hunt, after all.

If I were a frequent flyer, I'd been checking the facts like crazy - and opting out of scans. I'd also want to know if the scanners emit the radiation to the area around the machine, too.

kay

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rondo

14 years ago

"the probability of dying from cancer caused by radiation from a body scanner and that of being killed in a terror attack are both approximately one in 30 million."

Full-body airport scanners 'as likely to kill you as terrorist bombs' | News.com.au

Andrew

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seasoned

14 years ago

We actually know for a FACT the scanners are dangerous! Technically, NOBODY is denying it. The TSA position is that the danger is so low that it is effectively insignificant. They say the SAME about XRAY machines! HECK, they say the SAME about CT scanners! I had a LOT of CT scans!

2007 "SAFE"
2008 "SAFE"
2009 "SAFE"
2010 "SAFE" OOPS, 2011 better switch to MRI next year! I asked "WHY?". "It is safer since you hit your limit", the doctor said.

Some unlucky people had their LIVES destroyed by ONE CT scan because the machines were miscalibrated!

Now, about my CT scan, did they get the message that I had 3 others? Probably NOT! Did they count the 3+ extras THEY took because of mistakes? Probably NOT. Did they count the back scatter garbage? OF COURSE NOT! Heck, there doesn't even seem to be a consensus on the back scatter exposure.

OH, and dentists said "AMALGAM" is safe. BULL!!!!! So WHY do they call it "AMALGAM"? WHY do they treat it like it is radioactive, and dispose of it so? WHY do they say removing it can be dangerous and release mercury? And WHAT makes mercury , released by fillings, so different from mercury? I mean they KNOW mercury is a dangerous toxin, and they KNOW the fillings release mercury.

HECK, they said the SAME about particle board in the late sixties early seventies. By the late seventies EVEN mobile homes built with it needed a WARNING!

And thalidomide is an interesting thing. It was given to the VERY same people it should NOT have been given to, PREGNANT WOMEN! AND, as I recall, they found that the very premise was FLAWED! It was given to prevent miscarriage, and apparently it DOESN'T! BUT, if I were a woman, I would rather miscarry than have a child that was so deformed, etc...

Steve

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thegotoguy

14 years ago

This is exactly why I don't invest in gold. I invest in ammo! Right now this kind of over-governing is being reigned down on travelers at the airport. What are you going to do when the TSA puts full body scanners in at the local library or the mall?

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I would have stripped down to my birthday suit, & boarded the plane...

If they tried to stop me, I would have took off running/streaking!

One man THOUGHT about wrapping himself in plastic, but decided to come in his underwear. One woman came in a bikini, or was it underwear? Sometimes it is hard to tell!

Steve

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waterotter

14 years ago

I just received the following email:

Here's a solution to all the controversy over full-body scanners at the airports:

All we need to do is develop a booth that you can step into that will NOT X-ray you, but WILL detonate any explosive device you may have hidden on or in your body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth.

This would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and the device would eliminate long and expensive trials. This is so simple that it's brilliant.

I can see it now: you're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers, we now have a seat available on flight number..."

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

I just received the following email:

Here's a solution to all the controversy over full-body scanners at the airports:

All we need to do is develop a booth that you can step into that will NOT X-ray you, but WILL detonate any explosive device you may have hidden on or in your body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth.

This would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and the device would eliminate long and expensive trials. This is so simple that it's brilliant.

I can see it now: you're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers, we now have a seat available on flight number..."

GREAT! And the terrorists would LOVE it since, if they were correct theologically, they would go STRAIGHT to heaven! Like their belief that says that intent means everything, the belief here would comfort them. NOW we just have to figure out how to blow them up. Lets see, percussion, pressure, temperature, missing component.... OOPS, impractical.

As a JOKE, though, I LOVE it. Right down to the unlikely PA statement.

Steve

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Lol @ the plastic,

It would take a 1/2 hour to unwrap one of those industrial size restaurant saran wraps.

My mother inlaw had a box of that industrial size saran wrap at Thanksgiving yesterday, it had on the box 2,000 feet of plastic.

I ALSO thought SARAN WRAP, but he said PLASTIC, so I don't know if he meant garbage bags, saran wrap, or something else.

Steve

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Dave Patterson

14 years ago

All I know is....I'm going to be flying to New England in a couple months to visit my kids (and grandkids).

You may see me on the news.

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

You may see me on the news.

Dave,

If you really want to be on the news you could always get a job at the TSA and change your name to Dave Patterdown...
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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

All I know is....I'm going to be flying to New England in a couple months to visit my kids (and grandkids).

You may see me on the news.

Yeah - but will you have your clothes on?

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yeah - but will you have your clothes on?

They actually showed that man, wearing plain white underwear, though he WAS wearing boxers, and the woman with small black panties and a black bra, IN the airport on the news!

Steve
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Dave Patterson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yeah - but will you have your clothes on?

I was thinking something along the lines of....body paint...

Wonder how this would grab them...

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

I was thinking something along the lines of....body paint...

Wonder how this would grab them...

I think my tat says it better.

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Kay King

14 years ago

After reading a letter to the editor today in the local paper - I think I'll pick the scanner.

The point made was TSA workers wear latex gloves to protect themselves from any illness or contamination when they pat people down.

But they don't change gloves in between patting person A and patting person B - I don't want someone else's germs wiped on my shirt!:rolleyes:

kay

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

After reading a letter to the editor today in the local paper - I think I'll pick the scanner.

The point made was TSA workers wear latex gloves to protect themselves from any illness or contamination when they pat people down.

But they don't change gloves in between patting person A and patting person B - I don't want someone else's germs wiped on my shirt!:rolleyes:

kay

Don't worry about your shirt Kay - from reports of where people are being touched, shirts and panties are becoming moot points real fast.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

After reading a letter to the editor today in the local paper - I think I'll pick the scanner.

The point made was TSA workers wear latex gloves to protect themselves from any illness or contamination when they pat people down.

But they don't change gloves in between patting person A and patting person B - I don't want someone else's germs wiped on my shirt!:rolleyes:

kay

With ME, they always changed gloves. They THEN, after doing a patdown on ME, ran it through a residue detector. If they used the SAME gloves, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to detect residue on me! If the test came up positive, I could simply deny it. They would have NO chain off custody, and couldn't convict me. If the RERAN the test I could merely claim the residue came off the gloves they used earlier. They would HAVE to let me fly because, if they didn't, it is a breach of contract, and I could concievably sue, and WOULD refund the ticket!

BUT, in the US apparently there are HUGE bedbug infestations! I USED to consider it just a stupid MYTH to have a rhyme when people say "good night"! Just YESTERDAY I heard on PRI how two BBC STUDIOS were infested with BEDBUGS! I have been LUCKY so far. Sadly, I travel a LOT, so I am in a high risk group.

BTW GERMS aren't much of a concern. Bacteria WILL be on your clothes, but will probably quickly die. Viruses WILL be on your clothes and, though they won't die, you probably won't catch them from THAT. But insects and the like could do ANYTHING. Then again, bugs could end up in your bags, etc... Bugs can be lice, bedbugs, spiders, mites, ticks, etc... I have been lucky so far. The WORST hitchhikers I apparently have had were spiders, and that is from old boxes that haven't recently been touched.

Steve

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Black Hat Cat Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They would HAVE to let me fly because, if they didn't, it is a breach of contract, and I could concievably sue, and WOULD refund the ticket!

Steve

Keep telling yourself that, lol. You may get a refund, but if they say you ain't flying, guess what? You ain't flying. Sue all you want. You'll lose.
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- seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat
  
  Keep telling yourself that, lol. You may get a refund, but if they say you ain't flying, guess what? You ain't flying. Sue all you want. You'll lose.
  
  OH, I'm sure they WOULD keep me from flying, but preventing me from flying for NO legitimate reason so I lose work, etc? I bet I WOULD win! At BEST it would be a PR nightmare. The airlines have ENOUGH problems.
  
  I mean think about it. THEY said they would allow me to fly. THEY insisted I purchase so early. THEY setup the concourses, etc... And if THEY decide to later frustrate the ability to honor that commitment that THEY made and were paid for?
  
  Steve
  
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  Kym Lawn 14 years ago
  
  I found this in Urban dictionary today under word of the year.
  
  Urban Dictionary: Gate Rape
  
  Sort of sums it all up nicely.
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  from reports of where people are being touched, shirts and panties are becoming moot points real fast.
  
  Oh, my wicked little mind. Anyone ever think about "faking it" during a patdown. A few well timed moans might be interesting. Just sayin...
  
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  Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
  ***
  One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
  what it is instead of what you think it should be.
  
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  whateverpedia 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  Oh, my wicked little mind. Anyone ever think about "faking it" during a patdown. A few well timed moans might be interesting. Just sayin...
  
  That reminds me of an incident back in the early 80's.
  
  Myself and a group of friends had been to a fancy dress party dressed as punks. After the party we stopped at a Hungry Jack's (the name Burger King trades under in Australia) for a bite to eat.
  
  As soon as the manager saw us he rang the boys in blue who were there in a flash giving us all a frisk.
  
  One of my mates, after having been felt up, turned to look over his shoulder, and said to the plod "Was it good for you as well?"
  
  The rest of us, the crowd that had gathered to watch, as well as the plod's colleagues all burst out laughing.
  
  The plod was livid, but one of his colleagues (obviously the senior officer), told us all to go home and led the offended plod away.
  
  Ah, memories. :rolleyes:
  
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  Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
  So that blind people can hate them as well.
  
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  waterotter 14 years ago
  
  ......and Kay arrives at the airport....
  
  Attachment 6398
  
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  seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  ......and Kay arrives at the airport....
  
  Attachment 6398
  
  Too bad it is essentially illegal for the TSA to do pat downs without the friskee purchasing a ticket. They aren't to allow people through the security process without a ticket that matches a picture ID from the government. Can you imagine the MAYHEM that would ensue if they DID!?!?!? They USED to, prior to 9/11/2001 allow ANYONE through the process, and many families did it so they could spend time with those leaving, and say bye as they were leaving. TODAY, that isn't allowed.
  
  Steve
  
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  waterotter 14 years ago
  
  Steve, I understand what you're saying. I just got a kick out of Kay's post - #209, thus I couldn't resist, it was just a joke!
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  I love the image - but I think that's my mother....
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
  ***
  One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
  what it is instead of what you think it should be.
  
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seasoned

14 years ago

OK, ANOTHER!

Dr. Blaylock: Body Scanners More Dangerous Than Feds Admit

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seasoned

14 years ago

Yeah, I realize it was a joke. I just wanted to kind of add to it. Technically, and probably in fact, it is ILLEGAL for a parent to even pick up their unattended minor child! ALL because some BUFOON used a 30 year old relic from a bygone era to destroy a few buildings!

Steve

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CPALEAD-COM

14 years ago

Only my veiw and 2 cents.

it seems we all need to hide from the devil or a devil figure.

The snow ball affect on a false sense of security - think about this.

I would have to share how sick, I felt to consider it happens and a Parent to be subjected to someone else doing this to a child. We teach our children to not let anyone touch your body.

MODS and Forum OWNER or Admin. please let me share the follow link|video, maybe someone may view the entire video and think about its contents in the video

Zeitgeist: Addendum - 2008 by Peter Joseph -
vimeo.com/13770061

To be able to post links or images your post count must be 15 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Please remove links from your message, then you will be able to submit your post.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

This might be getting a bit more interesting.

Jesse Ventura is suing the authorities over this mow. He's not the first, but is the highest profile person to sue (so far).

YouTube - JESSE VENTURA ABUSED BY TSA WILL NO...

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Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?

So that blind people can hate them as well.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

This is exactly what happened in Germany in WWII, when Hitler brainwashed all of Germany. And if people don't see that, they are just blind, I'm sorry too be so blunt.

Godwin. End.

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.
Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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