Nuclear Plant Meltdown in Japan?

13 years ago

hope the bottom post is correct from WSJ.com

I keep wondering what acts of heroism are taking place at the reactors now, it can't be easy or safe to be around there now.

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waterotter

13 years ago

Here are a couple of links regarding the current status:

NucNet

http://www.iaea.org/programmes/a2/

Be sure to refresh the page.

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Andie

13 years ago

I'm afraid it will get worse better it gets better....six reactors with cooling problems? Scary chit..........

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David Maschke 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Andie

I'm afraid it will get worse better it gets better....six reactors with cooling problems? Scary chit..........

Edit: on further reading, I found that supposedly the reactor is still in place, it was coolant that turned into hydrogen that blew up. Hopefully they can keep the core from going.
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Andie

13 years ago

the so-called 'experts' are saying that there have been two legit meltdowns; but they are desperately trying to cool & contain. nothing extremely major has escaped containment yet that i can tell...
God bless those working or living near these areas......

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Kay King 13 years ago

The "experts" I've heard on the media have not been to the sites - have not talked to those in charge on the premises and don't have the technical hour by hours changes those working the problems have.

Fear of radiation is valid - but also is being fanned in my opinion. I think Japan is following the right steps in the evacuations and hope they can prevent a full meltdown of one or more of the reactors. I was impressed by the use of sea water as that water is very cold this time of year.

The "meltdown" reports seem to have come from a statement of that mentioned "melting". That could have been melting of the tip of a rod that was exposed - only those at the site know whether there was "melting" or if it's a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the comment.

If a crisis can be averted - the Japanese are just the people who could do it. It is what it is - and I wish them well.

What shocked me was a report that the earthquake changed the axis of the earth by a least 8 centimeters.

kay
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- TimPhelan 13 years ago
  
  And Japan is now 8 feet closer to the US I heard some scientist say!
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  What shocked me was a report that the earthquake changed the axis of the earth by a least 8 centimeters.
  
  kay
  
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Andie

13 years ago

Kay,
yes, I think you are right, they're doing all they can and doing well.

I hope the aftershocks are subsiding...not sure how many hits those plants can take, ya know?

the axis change is surprising to me too.....wonder just what changes that will bring us

Andie

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Kurt

13 years ago

They had a professor on the local news who said he's been reading reports from the various commissions and that the press isn't very accurate.

He said that he doesn't think there's much to worry about based on these reports. He also said this is Japan's oldest reactor and was scheduled to be taken off line pretty soon.

He also said that by using sea water, they were ruining the reactor, but since it's being taken off line, it didn't really matter.

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Kay King

13 years ago

the axis change is surprising to me too.....wonder just what changes that will bring us

All I know is it shortens our day by a "hair" - scientists thought there was a change also after the Chilean quake.

What is going to be amazingly useful to scientists is the sophistication of the Japanese in their earthquake preparedness. They have the best sensors and equipment to read the stats of quakes - and this information is going to be valuable to seismologists especially and structural engineers as well. I read this is the best documented major earthquake in history. Expect there will be some interesting papers written about this event - hope I'll be able to understand them!

kay

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

All I know is it shortens our day by a "hair" - scientists thought there was a change also after the Chilean quake.

What is going to be amazingly useful to scientists is the sophistication of the Japanese in their earthquake preparedness. They have the best sensors and equipment to read the stats of quakes - and this information is going to be valuable to seismologists especially and structural engineers as well. I read this is the best documented major earthquake in history. Expect there will be some interesting papers written about this event - hope I'll be able to understand them!

kay

Yes - the axis shifted and will do so again. This is part of the magnetic polar shift we are in. The magnetic pole has been moving toward Siberia at 25 mpy for several years and lately at 40 mpy. Matter aligns to that pole so after it gets far enough from the geographic pole land mass starts to shift. You get no only new axis, but new pole locations. Eventually everything will line back up again and I'm willing to see that take some time. Imagine all the large shallow quakes we've had in the last few years happening all at once. Slow is good. It will be interesting to see what the next pole alignment stats look like.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Based on all I heard, it was one plant. There was a problem, and the pressure built up, the primary system failed. They can't get some engines started, because they are flooded, so the secondary system failed. They are using seawater to keep it from overheating. Last I heard, it STILL is in danger.

Despite what kurt's statement might imply, it obviously still has fuel, and THAT is what is causing the problem. I'm unsure as to what they do to make it safer and store it, but they CAN'T do that until they can get to it which they currently can't do. Offline or not, it is a problem.

Thunderbird,

The only way, at least that I can think of, of an explosion being from a neuclear meltdown, other than a tiny one caused by heat buildup bursting tubes, would be if fuel had too many neutrons. But THAT would release more neutrons that would replicate the problem around, otherwise known as a chain reaction. Obviously, THAT could be quite large. The impact depends on the radioactivity, the proximity of everything, and the way it is designed. But THAT would likely be considered a disaster.

I heard of one "explosion", but they said that that was just the collapse of the building.

So, last I heard, it was BAD, and COULD become the worst disaster, for japan, since WWII! BTW they ARE accepting help now, so it liikely won't be TOO bad for too long.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,2637634.story

Steve

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Andie

13 years ago

This is what frightens me.....and I suspected it was in the works... can these already damaged/fragile reactors handle another hit??

• More than 250 aftershocks have rocked Japan since the original earthquake on Friday. The US Geological Survey said 30 of these were in excess of magnitude 6. Japan's meteorological agency said there was a 70% chance of a magnitude 7 aftershock striking in the next three days.

70% chance....if it happens in the wrong spot...

my heart just breaks at the scope of the disaster already and i truly hope it does not turn worse

Andie

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Andie

This is what frightens me.....and I suspected it was in the works... can these already damaged/fragile reactors handle another hit??

• More than 250 aftershocks have rocked Japan since the original earthquake on Friday. The US Geological Survey said 30 of these were in excess of magnitude 6. Japan's meteorological agency said there was a 70% chance of a magnitude 7 aftershock striking in the next three days.

70% chance....if it happens in the wrong spot...

my heart just breaks at the scope of the disaster already and i truly hope it does not turn worse

Andie

From what I understand NORMALLY, a 6 or 7 is NOTHING in japan, like california. But a 7 is ******NOWHERE****** near a 9, or even an 8.

OH, they are bad NOW because it is a shambles, but from what I understand not unusual.

At least they are all aftershocks. I didn't realize it until 1994, in California, but earthquakes can be DEMOTED! They can be demoted to a PRESHOCK! That only happens if the next one in a certain period, on the same fault, is higher than the last quake. If that happened in japan now it could be worse than a meltdown at that nuclear powerplant, and could make that far worse anyway. Luckily after this huge quake I don't think THAT is too likely. And the more smaller ones they have, the less likely it becomes.

Steve

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ThomM

13 years ago

From what I understand NORMALLY, a 6 or 7 is NOTHING in japan, like california. But a 7 is ******NOWHERE****** near a 9, or even an 8.

I could be wrong here (and I know Sal will correct me if I am), but I believe I heard a geologist say the other day that 1 point is 100 times strong then the point before it. So a 7.1 quake would be 100 times stronger then a 7.0.
So a quake of 9 would be 2,000 times stronger then a 7

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I could be wrong here (and I know Sal will correct me if I am), but I believe I heard a geologist say the other day that 1 point is 100 times strong then the point before it. So a 7.1 quake would be 100 times stronger then a 7.0.
So a quake of 9 would be 2,000 times stronger then a 7

Each WHOLE number represents a TEN fold increase:

The Richter Magnitude Scale

Because of the logarithmic basis of the scale, each whole number increase in magnitude represents a tenfold increase in measured amplitude; as an estimate of energy, each whole number step in the magnitude scale corresponds to the release of about 31 times more energy than the amount associated with the preceding whole number value.

So a 7 is only 10 times as strong as a 6. I say only just because many areas that have prepared are prepared for it. BUT....

An 8 is 10 times as strong as a 7, and 100 times as strong as a 6.
A 9 is 10 times an 8, or 100 times a 7, or 1000 times a 6.

So even the way I interpret it a 9 is a disastrous quake! Personally, I feel, as many, that I have experienced an 8 in california. Although not QUITE as bad as predicted, for the area, that spanned 10s of miles, maybe more, was DEVASTATING! I was LUCKY! I lived in a partially METAL structure built ontop of a VERY solid foundation. I couldn't get up off my bed until after it stopped. The building DID crack in half. But the buildings to either side, and across the street were total losses, as were most others. If we had a 9, it would have obliterated the area, and I would be dead.

Steve

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Each WHOLE number represents a TEN fold increase:

The Richter Magnitude Scale

So a 7 is only 10 times as strong as a 6. I say only just because many areas that have prepared are prepared for it. BUT....

An 8 is 10 times as strong as a 7, and 100 times as strong as a 6.
A 9 is 10 times an 8, or 100 times a 7, or 1000 times a 6.

So even the way I interpret it a 9 is a disastrous quake! Personally, I feel, as many, that I have experienced an 8 in california. Although not QUITE as bad as predicted, for the area, that spanned 10s of miles, maybe more, was DEVASTATING! I was LUCKY! I lived in a partially METAL structure built ontop of a VERY solid foundation. I couldn't get up off my bed until after it stopped. The building DID crack in half. But the buildings to either side, and across the street were total losses, as were most others. If we had a 9, it would have obliterated the area, and I would be dead.

Steve

I had a feeling I might have heard him wrong.

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HeySal 13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I had a feeling I might have heard him wrong.

I don't remember the exact figures, Thom. It's gradiant. It's the same type of grade as mohs scale is for rock hardness - the higher the numbers go, the more xx harder the rocks of the next level.

A mag 2 quake is going to be a lot stronger than a mag 1, but the difference between mag 1 and mag 2 is nothing compared to the difference between a 6 mag and a 7 mag. We don't even want to see one of the 9 mags the cascadia puts out. Plus you've got depth to factor in. Ya might not even feel a 7 mag at 500 km deep - but it will blow your whole town apart at 10 km deep. Some of the xx times as strong is not result of the mag - it's the result of the depth and how directly under you it is sitting when it blows.
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TimPhelan

13 years ago

I don't believe there has ever been a recorded 8 in California Steve. The 1906 in SF wasn't even one.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Personally, I feel, as many, that I have experienced an 8 in california.

Steve

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I don't believe there has ever been a recorded 8 in California Steve. The 1906 in SF wasn't even one.

Yeah, THAT is why I said I and others BELIEVE... There was ALSO a rumor that it was lowered because of the insurance companies, etc... HECK, as it was, state farm was on the hook for SO much that it would have BANKRUPTED them, that WAS their claim. They went to court to get their obligations reduced. It's times like that when you get to see how great builders and insurance really are. A friend of mine had a home that looked ok. One reason was that apparently it effectively had no foundation. The whole home slid about 1.5" out of position. Up to that point, I thought ALL homes were tied to the foundation and that that was an inspection step. After all, when I saw homes being built, they WERE tied down.

Steve

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Kay King

13 years ago

I am so impressed with the Japanese people. Nowhere do I see looters or crowds of people screaming for help when they see a camera. I see self-sufficient people who are enduring patiently.

Just heard one of the fuel rods (half of the rod) is now exposed - not good news. Radiation levels have risen slightly but so far no reason for panic but evacuations are being widened.

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mike gregory

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I am so impressed with the Japanese people. Nowhere do I see looters or crowds of people screaming for help when they see a camera. I see self-sufficient people who are enduring patiently.

I second this, really strong people in such times of crisis and devastation!

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denisjor 13 years ago

Interesting observations here, kinda opens the old eyes a little bit.
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DeborahDera

13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

There are conflicting news stories about damage to Japanese nuclear plants. Some stories state that explosions that have taken place are symptomatic of a nuclear meltdown leaking radiation, possibly worse than that in Chernobyl. Other stories say it isn't so bad:
CHERNOBYL IN JAPAN: Physicist: Japan Reactor Is a "Chernobyl in the Making" - KTXL
The BRAD BLOG : BREAKING: EXPLOSION ROCKS NUCLEAR PLANT AT FUKUSHIMA | INJURIES, PLUMES OF SMOKE, WALLS COLLAPSED
Radiation leaking from Japan's quake-hit nuclear | The Raw Story
Scientists: Japan Fallout Won't Rival Chernobyl's - WSJ.com

A news report yesterday alleged that the Japanese government may be trying to "downplay" the severity of the nuclear situation as part of a PR move. This may be why there are so many conflicting reports. I have no idea what to believe right now, but it's scary either way.

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Kay King

13 years ago

A news report yesterday alleged that the Japanese government may be trying to "downplay" the severity of the nuclear situation as part of a PR move.

I see that as more conjecture by news organizations competing with each other for audience share. I don't think PR is a big concern anywhere in Japan right now.

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Sheryl Polomka

13 years ago

Thanks for the link Craig - it looks devastating. I just heard on the news there was another explosion in the Nuclear plant - not sure if it was at the same plant or the other one.

Absolutely devastating!

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Banned 13 years ago

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thunderbird 13 years ago

Originally Posted by jassmine12

I am really chocked to hear this news. I fear is it the starting of the destruction gonna occur in 2012.

It's an ugly earthquake and will spark off superstitious fears, but it is superstition nonetheless. Do you really want to base your fears on the beliefs of the Ancient Maya who tore live human hearts out of their human sacrificial victims? 2012 end of the world is superstitious hogwash.
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Kurt

13 years ago

Here's a good explanation of how the richter scale works...The thing to note is the size of the quake is 10X, but the engergy produced is 30X.

YouTube - How Things Work : How Does the Richter...

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gforces

13 years ago

Thanks guys for all your comments and thoughts about Japan and those of us who live here. I am in Tokyo.

If you guys want to help with relief you can visit my post titled: Please HELP the Japanese earthquake relief
to contribute to the international Redcross relief effort.

For a real indepth analysis of the reactor problems please visit:
Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... it's a long and in-depth read but very balanced.

Take care everyone and keep us here in Japan in your thoughts and prayers... now and for the weeks to come.... there maybe more big earthquakes on the way.

God bless,
Graham

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thunderbird

13 years ago

From International Atomic Energy Agency:
IAEA Update on Japan Earthquake

Japanese authorities also today informed the IAEA at 04:50 CET that the spent fuel storage pond at the Unit 4 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is on fire and radioactivity is being released directly into the atmosphere.
Dose rates of up to 400 millisievert per hour have been reported at the site. Japanese authorities are saying that there is a possibility that the fire was caused by a hydrogen explosion.

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Andie

13 years ago

SOOO horrible....seems like it just keeps getting worse those them. The 4th reactor and what they say was a separate quake this morning.

God bless them all and especially the brave workers at these plants!

The heavens cannot count the ways man has ruined this world

Andie

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seasoned

13 years ago

Well, from what I have heard, it is FACT that this is a low to mid 6! Three Mile Island was a 5, and chernobyl a 7. Surprisingly, there is NO level higher than a 7! I would have made it a 9 point scale with 8 having persistant fallout, and 9 being an atomic explosion. I guess you COULD say chernobyl would be a low 8 on that scale, but it was a special case. I KNEW russia was the worst maker of reactors, but that chernobyl was apparently about as bad as they come.

BTW Poland is reconsidering nuclear power! Switzerland is holing off until they learn something from japan. And Germany is decommissioning ALL 7 nuclear plants built before 1980!

Oh, and at least 2 people got fired for telling STUPID jokes relating to japan's predicament.

Steve

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Kay King

13 years ago

What surprised me was learning that unless the housing is damaged, the operators don't know what is happening in real time with the rods. Then I realized that almost 20 years ago when the plant was built the technology of much of our sensors and cameras was not yet developed.

I don't think this is a reason to stop use of nuclear power - new plants are safer and I think some countries are over reacting at this time. Admit when I learned two of our older plants in the US are in California I thought "that's pretty dumb" so who knows?

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What surprised me was learning that unless the housing is damaged, the operators don't know what is happening in real time with the rods. Then I realized that almost 20 years ago when the plant was built the technology of much of our sensors and cameras was not yet developed.

2011-20=1991 They had this technology then. HECK, they HAVE had CCDs for quite a while. Charge-coupled device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Wikipedia says they were invented in 1969. But yeah, they HAVE been around a while. It is simply that NOW they are smaller in size, bigger in capacity, and cheaper. Heck those little worthless digital cameras that are in the drug stores cost $15 or less and STILL have them. Of course, they COULD just use the old fashioned physical, galvonic, thermal, etc... sensors that have been around in some form for over 100 years. You couldn't SEE the rod, but you could tell if it changed shape, lost integrity, got too hot, etc... One nasty thing about glass. It isn't strong enough or clear enough to see that well without increasing radiation exposure.

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't think this is a reason to stop use of nuclear power - new plants are safer and I think some countries are over reacting at this time. Admit when I learned two of our older plants in the US are in California I thought "that's pretty dumb" so who knows?

I don't even know if it is even among the 2 you are talking about, but there was one down in san diego, as I recall. It's been there since I was a kid. HEY, They needed power, and where else could they get it? That is one of the BAD parts about being separate states, but they have done ok. I don't EVER remember a scare. They likely DON'T build them anywhere NEAR faults. Then again, remember that earthquake I told you guys about that was so disastrous? It happened on a fault NOBODY knew about! And YEP, it was in California.

BTW I looked for nuclear plants near san diego, and found one that looks like it might be it. They said it was built for a 7.0 earthquake! I heard the ones in japan were built for an 8.0. BTW I heard all sorts of numbers, but last night they said the new adjusted value for that japan earthquake was 9! Again, a 9 is 100 times as bad as a 7! Luckily, from what I understand, Japan often has large quakes. Even tsunamis can't be THAT rare, I believe it IS a japanese word describing the kind of wave this one created. California IS known for large quakes, but NOTHING near a 9. And 7's aren't that rare, but I've never heard of sandiego being hurt by an earthquake, not that I track that that well.

And I NEVER liked the idea of nuclear power, but it IS a pretty efficient and fairly perpetual way to create energy. Now if you want to know probably the BEST way to create electricity, outside of photovoltaic, and solar collectors, it is probably a thermopile! FANTASTIC! You take organic WASTE and DIRT and throw it onto this device! THAT'S IT! It is simple! A CHILD could make it! It is cheap, and it works! So what are the waste products? Organic fertilizer and ELECTRICITY!

The only problems are putting the waste in, clearing the fertilizer, rotating the matter, and that it isn't very efficient. 8-( There COULD be bugs and bacteria, but THEY generally drive the whole thing. In fact, a nuclear generator could be FAR simpler with a thermopile, but generators are just SO scalable.

But wouldn't it be neat if we COULD use thermopiles? The waste(compost) can feed plants which, when we are done with them, or till things in, and dogs do their business, etc... we could put it in the thermopile to create more compost for the plants to cycle back, to the beginning again.

BTW the heat from the composting material, composted by the bacteria, is what causes the heat that the thermopile converts to electricity.

Steve

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thunderbird

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

]<snip> Now if you want to know probably the BEST way to create electricity, outside of photovoltaic, and solar collectors, it is probably a thermopile! FANTASTIC! You take organic WASTE and DIRT and throw it onto this device! THAT'S IT! It is simple! A CHILD could make it! It is cheap, and it works! So what are the waste products? Organic fertilizer and ELECTRICITY! <snip>

Steve

I've wondered about that, Steve. In a superconductive economy, the byproducts of our lifestyle would be utilized with a bare minimum actually becoming waste. Even city sewage could potentially be utilized to create energy, as sort of described here:
Could Landfills and City Sewage Be Utilized to Create Energy Rather Than Just Create More Pollution? | BuyandSellLand.com

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I've wondered about that, Steve. In a superconductive economy, the byproducts of our lifestyle would be utilized with a bare minimum actually becoming waste. Even city sewage could potentially be utilized to create energy, as sort of described here:
Could Landfills and City Sewage Be Utilized to Create Energy Rather Than Just Create More Pollution? | BuyandSellLand.com

The closer the waste gets to human waste, the greater the chance to spread things like Ecoli, but the thermopile thing I was talking about would work with most household sewage too.

Steve

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Kurt

13 years ago

The reactors are only one problem with nuke energy. The other BIG problem is the waste that needs to be stored somewhere. And that's at Yucca Mountain in Nevada.

Every bit of nuke waste in the US is put on a train and stored in NV. All waste goes within 100 yards of the Las Vegas Strip.

And the reactors (and trains) are just more targets for war, terrorists, and misc. villains...Plus the natural hazards and the human element.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

The reactors are only one problem with nuke energy. The other BIG problem is the waste that needs to be stored somewhere. And that's at Yucca Mountain in Nevada.

Every bit of nuke waste in the US is put on a train and stored in NV. All waste goes within 100 yards of the Las Vegas Strip.

And the reactors (and trains) are just more targets for war, terrorists, and misc. villains...Plus the natural hazards and the human element.

YEP! And the waste is not waste because itt is not radioactive. It is waste for many reasons. If a plant is decommissioned early, the waste might night even be waste at all really. It seems that a terrorist could get that and cut out refining steps. They CERTAINLY would have radioactive material. Earlier, people spoke about dirty bombs. Basically regular bombs with nuclear shrapnel. Wellm the nuclear waste would help there.

And, although the idea of blasting through space, let alone having humans survive there, is ridiculous, the basic premise behind space 1999 is, unfortunately sound! The basic premise is the earth starts using a LOT of nuclear power, and ends up putting the nuclear waste on one side of the moon. Some distance from there they have a base. An explosion happens, the nuclear waste blows up, and the moon starts going who knows where.

And a nuclear explosion doesn't require air or fire. It has nothing to do with them. Basically all the atoms just disintegrate at nearly the same time, and release their contents as a sort of subatomic shrapnel.

Steve

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

OK, now they are using helicopters to dump sea water on the reactors!? Wow! That was just surreal seeing that. Seems like a very desperate move like they are making it up as they go. Somehow this accident is reminding me more and more of the BP Gulf oil spill.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

OK, now they are using helicopters to dump sea water on the reactors!? Wow! That was just surreal seeing that. Seems like a very desperate move like they are making it up as they go. Somehow this accident is reminding me more and more of the BP Gulf oil spill.

It IS kind of funny, if you think about it. It is an ELECTRIC plant, so they apparently felt it didn't need power. If the primary system failed, they would go to diesel engines. They KNEW that in a BAD disaster, there could be a lot of water, but apparently didn't provide for it. SO though they WERE prepared, and could have prevented the whole problem, by practically throwing a switch, but the diesel engines were flooded. It sounded like they had 2. For all those reactors, maybe they should have had several in different spots, shielded against the water.

Like has been said here SEVERAL TIMES! ALWAYS HAVE A BACKUP! PREFERABLY have a copy OFFSITE as well! You NEVER know when a fire or a FLOOD will happen!

I haven't read about the preshock warning yet, but Japan is KNOWN for earthquakes. They may not have had much of a choice for where to build it. But I think they SHOULD have tried to build it to take a 9. I would have at least tried. They ARE known for big earthquakes, and it IS nuclear!

Steve

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purplesquril

13 years ago

Eh, the real problem is the location. The main Japanese island is really just a big metropolis. The logistics of evacuation have gotta be just incomprehensible.

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thunderbird

13 years ago

Could pre-earthquake negligence have factored into Japan's post-earthquake nuclear plant mishaps?
Wikileaks reveals 2008 Japan nuclear warning

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Could pre-earthquake negligence have factored into Japan's post-earthquake nuclear plant mishaps?
Wikileaks reveals 2008 Japan nuclear warning

WikiPEDIA said they were built to handle an EIGHT! In the US a 7(What wikipedia says the sandiego plants were built for in California) may be OK. And maybe that was one reason they downgraded the 1994 earthquake. CA always feared an 8 was on its way. But Japan should be prepared for worse. And don't forget. EVERY fractional point between 8 and 9 is equal to an 8. So 8.1 is almost TWICE the size of an 8, and 8.2 is almost THREE times! Even the first value of japans earthquake was almost 8 times an 8. As it was, it was a 9 or tens times an 8. A lot of designs used in the US to protect large buildings are based on a JAPANESE model because the japanese know it would be foolhardy to do it any other way.

Steve
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- roddyfonline 13 years ago
  
  ill be surprised if there isnt going to be a total meltdown and a massive disaster.
  
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  seasoned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by roddyfonline
  
  ill be surprised if there isnt going to be a total meltdown and a massive disaster.
  
  All they have to do is get the resources there, buy themselves some time, and get it to calm down, and they can cap it or fix it. As long as they don't give up, do something stupid, or have another catastrophe, they are likely to get it capped. Unfortunately, I think most will just be rendered WORTHLESS. A lot of land nearby may become a ghosttown, like chernobyl.
  
  Oh well, the American Family Life Assurance Company does a LOT of business in Japan, and they promised to help out. BTW in case you haven't guessed, they are called AFLAC for short.
  
  Steve
  
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Kurt

13 years ago

I wonder why a water tower isn't used? If they had some type of water tower above the reactors, they could just use gravity in case of emergency and not have to depend on "power". It's easier to pump water when things are working than in nuclear meltdowns.

Also, haven't electronics advanced enough to have remote control fire trucks for these types of situations? Japan's always coming out with some type of robot...

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seasoned

13 years ago

Kurt, They charge a FORTUNE for those types of robots, and they are usually used in agriculture. There are huge machines that are part computer, part tractor, and part dumptruck that can actually go around acres of crops and harvest. But they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, last I knew. And driving down a public street that has a lot of rubble, etc... may be problematic. That's one of the reasons fully robot cars aren't available yet, though they ARE clearly working on THOSE also. As for the water tower, GREAT IDEA! Maybe they DID have one. I wonder how THOSE hold up to earthquakes.

Most places in california, that I have known anyway, don't have water towers. They have aquaducts. And in BAD earthquakes THEY can break and then they sometimes say not to drink the water, etc..., if you even have any.

Steve

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alcymart

13 years ago

Nuclear reactors are a needed commodity now due to high populous concentrations with no other way to produce electricity cheaply.

New forms of energy should be researched more deeply. We need new Edison's or Einstein's for the 21st century!

Bernard

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alcymart

Nuclear reactors are a needed commodity now due to high populous concentrations with no other way to produce electricity cheaply.

New forms of energy should be researched more deeply. We need new Edison's or Einstein's for the 21st century!

Bernard

IRONIC! Einstein was the one that theorized about how much energy ATOMS could release. Remember e=mc^2? Well, E=ENERGY! GRANTED he was talking about its use as a WEAPON but.... BTW ^ is computer shorthand for "to the power of", just as superscripting a number is.

And what did edison do? He wanted everyone to use DC. It seems crazy, but AC is easier to produce, and provides some options DC doesn't. And AC can be converted to DC. Why not mention tesla? HE saw the problem with DC, and worked on trying to get power to the masses,

Steve

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thunderbird

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alcymart

Nuclear reactors are a needed commodity now due to high populous concentrations with no other way to produce electricity cheaply.

New forms of energy should be researched more deeply. We need new Edison's or Einstein's for the 21st century!

Bernard

I don't think the problem is really about scientific advances and knowledge. It has more to do with overcoming personal and societal (greedy intere$t$) barriers to their implementation. You or I could get off the grid and produce our own electricity. The resources are all there for our taking.

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minut

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alcymart

Nuclear reactors are a needed commodity now due to high populous concentrations with no other way to produce electricity cheaply.

New forms of energy should be researched more deeply. We need new Edison's or Einstein's for the 21st century!

Bernard

There should be ways that we should look for so that we can replace those dangerous ways of producing electricity as the population grows.

Just hearing the word "nuclear power plant", we can already foresee the danger and the hazard for this kind.

That is maybe the reason why the nature is getting back to us human because of the craze happening here on Earth.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Greg,

From what I have heard and seen, it IS melting down. EVEN a japanese official said that! Some nuclear power experts have said that. It STILL isn't at the level of chernobyl, but it seemed to be getting closer. Yesterday was the FIRST day that some said the news looked better.

The problem wiith a nuclear plant is that you take this moderately dangerous stuff from who knows HOW large an area, refine it, and concentrate it so it becomes VERY dangerous! It is then CAREFULLY, put into an area with rods to isolate them, and coolant, and sealed. Up to this point, it has been PRETTY dangerous! But THEN those rods are pulled out, and it becomes VERY dangerous. The problem is if those rods aren't in good condition, and ir don;t get pushed back, you have some REAL problems. There isn't really a backup plan. 8-( But think of ALL the work they did to mine and refine that stuff so it COULD be so dangerous!

Steve

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corsleymaxwell

13 years ago

Well, we really don't know what will happen next. All we have to do is to pray that nothing will happen to us and to our family.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Bernard - a LOT of people have had ideas for inexpensive and safe power. They seem to become very wealthy overnight and disappear right along with their products. It's not nice to try to take money from TPTB.

Steve - if they are using SALT water on a reactor, chances are they are not planning on putting that plant back into action.

If our population is so damned vast that we can't provide ourselves power without using dangerous sources, maybe we should think about limiting the amount of babies we are dropping. It's really time for humans to understand they are part of a natural environment, not gods over it. We are populating beyond control and what's going to happen as a result is going to make forced sterilization look like an act of mercy.

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Kay King 13 years ago

That particular plant was scheduled for a shutdown anyway before long. What is equally interesting is that other nuclear plants that were newer are not suffering meltdowns.

We are having fear reactions that could lead to ridiculous extremes. Look at the media - they are crying "radiation has reached...." followed by (later) "but it's not at levels that present any danger".

Salt water eroded some of the machinery and that may increase the difficulty but what else is new there? It's a big problem but panic solves nothing and over reaction is a fear response.

In many parts of the world, nuclear power has worked well and efficiently. Most of the problems have not been natural disasters or mechanical failure but worker and regulatory failures.

It was found that in California the pumps meant to protect the public from a problem at a nuclear plant were inoperable for 18 months. Will anyone be prosecuted for that? No - it will blamed on the lowest worker level and not on those paid to oversee safety.

You have to choose whether to be a part of a natural environment or to use natural sources to create the power we demand. The elements that create nuclear power are natural elements that we manipulate.

We make a progression to ease and power in everything we use. A wood stove can heat a home using natural resources and the only danger is burning down one home. So we go to fireplaces - an old and safe heat source - and then to compressed logs and then to using natural gas in fireplaces - and all of a sudden we create our own potential for harm that goes beyond our home. Yet all of those methods are fairly safe. A natural gas explosion is a potential though.

Coal strips our lands, use of oil damages our natural environment. The only way to be "one with nature" is to abandon all of those power producing agents and no one is willing to do that. We are so dependent on power we would not survive.

The safety of nuclear plants has greatly increased since that Japanese plant was built. We have to have the regulatory clout to shut down older plants that don't meet current standards. We need the will not to say "but, we need that power" or "but, we can still get some use from that plant". If retrofitting is needed for safety - we need the regulators to shut down facilities until that work has been done by the power company. If that were done, it wouldn't take years and years to install new safety options.

Natural disasters happen - you can't change the world to prevent the next one or to provide absolute safety. You limit the damage, make needed improvements and keep going until the next natural disaster teaches another lesson.

kay
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credasys

13 years ago

That's really a scary story. The latest updates for now is some of the water in faucets have positively found a nuclear radiation.

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sarahberra

13 years ago

This seems like a set up to me. Why would they build nuclear power plants on top of fault lines. Japan was a time bomb just waiting to go off. I have discovered that we also have many nuke plants on fault lines here in the United States. I am not so sure that I am in favor of this type of power.

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Kay King

13 years ago

A 9.0 earthquake is nature - not negligence.

It looks like 10,000+ people dead - and that has nothing to do with the nuclear plant.

I am not so sure that I am in favor of this type of power.

That's the problem - if we demand the power, we have to have ways to provide it. Every power source has it's dangers to people and/or the environment. The only safe power sources are sun and wind - and they haven't been fully utilized. People say "what about cloudy days and days without wind" - which is a valid question for those energy sources.

From what I've read, the country to model in nuclear power is France. They seem to have it figured out a bit more than other nations do as they have developed ways to recycle most of the dangerous wastes produced. In the US, we tend to bury the waste as "out of sight, out of mind" and that may come back to haunt us one of these days".

I don't think ignoring nuclear energy is the answer - thoughtful placement of plants in area as safe as possible from major natural disasters makes sense. I think inspection and regulation that actually HAPPENS makes sense - and that the inspectors need to be independent of govts/agencies that may have relationships with huge power entities.

Our society has somehow created this imaginative scenario of "ensuring safety" that isn't in step with reality. We've never been "safe" on this planet - we can only adjust to the dangers we know we face. Seismologists are shocked at the magnitude of the Japanese earthquake - that tells you how little we really know about our planet.

If we demand continuing expansion of power grids around the world - we have to take the chance on various forms of power. That's because we have not spent the money and time to create alternate sources.

It bothers me when people say "we shouldn't have XXXXX power" - and they walk into their homes and turn on all the gadgets that use electricity. If you want the power - you have to accept the risk as well.
With nuclear power, the answer may not be "stop using it" - but an insistence on better monitoring and higher safety standards.

I wonder if sometime in the future there will be technology developed to neutralize radiation. Wouldn't that be something?

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

I was on facebook and a couple smart guys were saying Chernobyl wasn't that bad because only a few people died. I pointed out that was the number of deaths attributed to dying because of the actual explosion. Actually various studies on the estimated deaths resulting over the years range anywhere from 20,000 on up to as high as 1,000,000! One report has several million people getting ill because of Chernobyl. You don't hear much about these studies though.

By the way Greg, all the experts I have heard have said this won't come anywhere near to what Chernobyl was. Chernobyl released an estimated 200 times the amount of radiation that was released by the Hiroshima bomb. But of course you are right to be concerned and careful.

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Kay King

13 years ago

Greg -

I don't blame you at all for being scared right now - you have a totally different perspective of the current crisis where you are and I understand that.

In your place, I'd likely feel the same.

Much of what we know here (or at least what I've learned growing up here) is the far side of the danger of radiation. Nuclear bombs and nightmare scenarios.

Yet, in truth, so far the nuclear accidents that have occurred have not come close to those nightmares. Chernobyl killed 200 - can't compare with a massive tsunami or earthquake. True, there are long term problems as well but so often they don't seem to live up the frightening projections.
(thank goodness)

If I were where you are, I'd probably be scared to death - but I'm musing about it from a different perspective because at the moment I'm not personally threatened. The food and drink contamination is a very logical fear to have.

I just hope there isn't a knee jerk reaction of "stop nuclear energy" - because I don't think it's warranted. We may not know for sure until the tragedy in Japan plays out in full - and that's sad but true.

We've had dead dolphins washing up on the Gulf Coast now since early February - this is not normal. We're told "it might not be due to the oil spill and dispersants of a year ago" - but what are the chances it's not a direct result of that? There are dead zones in the Gulf where nothing is living - and we don't think we've caused damage? Except for solar and wind - is there any energy source that doesn't have risks associated with it? Nope - but while we talk about "risk" - we are shocked when the worst happens even though we knew the risk was there. Isn't that odd of us?

For me, the real trick is finding a balance between producing the power needed while also providing the highest margin of safety possible. It is a balance because we'll never be totally safe.

What surprised me was a discussion today where scientists were admitting they have no idea how many fault lines there are or how they are interconnected. Somehow I thought that was something that was a known ingredient, but apparently not.

kay

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Kay King 13 years ago

But can you chalk something like this up to a learning experience?

Sadly - I think we have to look at it as a learning experience. That's for future as right now it's crisis management. We can project risks - but until we face the reality of what can happen, we don't see the weaknesses in the systems we've developed.
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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Here's an article which mentions a few of the predictions/estimates about deaths from the Chernobyl disaster which range from 4,000 to 500,000:

Chernobyl nuclear accident: figures for deaths and cancers still in dispute | Environment | The Guardian

The Ukrainian Health Minister claimed in 2006 that more than 2.4 million Ukrainians, including 428,000 children, suffer from health problems related to Chernobyl:

RFI - Nucléaire - Tchernobyl, 20 ans après

Originally Posted by Kay King

Yet, in truth, so far the nuclear accidents that have occurred have not come close to those nightmares. Chernobyl killed 200 - can't compare with a massive tsunami or earthquake. True, there are long term problems as well but so often they don't seem to live up the frightening projections.

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TimPhelan 13 years ago

Here is another completely safe form of energy, besides solar and wind, that is showing great promise:

"the world's oceans are estimated to contain enough practically extractable energy to provide over 6,000 terawatt hours of electricity each year, which is enough to power over 600... million homes and is worth over $900 billion annually."

Wave Energy Prototype, 'SeaRay,' Exceeds Expectations (VIDEO)
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seasoned

13 years ago

Yeah, Chernobyl was a DISASTER! They can NEVER know how many people died because of it. Even if they COULD somehow take a tally, they STILL wouldn't know. People born TODAY may die earlier because of it.

You know, the nuclear bombs that were dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki did NOT create as much explosive force on japan as intended! Oh, they COULD have, but they DIDN'T! The US decided to detonate them from a higher level so the death and all would have a bigger impact and end up killing MORE people. The radiation and fallout spread farther.

And I saw documentaries, that actually showed REAL people in hospitals, etc... that SURVIVED the blast, and didn't even get burned, or hit with anything, but they were dying FAST! By fast, I mean in days or even months, but the degradation was OBVIOUS. They were OUTSIDE of the blast zone of the bombs! And some in chernobyl had the SAME problem.

In fact, when I was a kid, they were talking about the NEUTRON bomb! A special bomb that would basically have the SAME death and radioactive harm but had only about 1/4 of the destructive power, so more of the land could be kept, etc... Neutron bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia According to wikipedia, it only has a half life of about 12 years, so it would probably have to be refueled like every 3 years. THAT is probably why it seems to have been abandoned. Of course, that ALSO means that in about 30 years, the land would probably be safe to live in. A half life of 12 years means that half the material becomes inert in 12 years.

My point is simply that the US never considered the explosion to be the real purpose behind it, and the old films about protection against nuclear weapons have to do with the movement of the earth and things related to the fallout. After all, there isn't much you can do about the explosion. Japan is now worried because many cities are ALREADY seeing contaminated food and water.

On the old twilight zone there is an episode where WWIII happened, and some idiots that try to act like all powerful government officials come in and declare this food, etc... to be SAFE. They find the "man in the cave" and, finding that it is a computer that has limited their actions, they destroy it. In the end, the guy that hid "the man in the cave" is the ONLY one alive. The others, taking the food HE said was unsafe, DIED, from radiation sickness.

It was a scifi flick, but all that stuff could have happened in the 50s, and could certainly happen today. About the only thing that was really SCIFI is the idea that WWIII took place decades ago.

Steve

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seasoned

13 years ago

Wildermuth,

Solar energy just doesn't work as well on a cloudy day. In such a case, there ARE batteries, etc... Your fears ARE justified. 8-(

The only way I could see radiation being negated is if it is quickly released, or somehow coated with an element that is effectively STARVED for neutrons.

It isn't like the scifi movies where the power can be sucked out, or shocked out.

Steve

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williamalarice

13 years ago

It's a serious situtation in Japan and i hope they will recover it soon before any big loss.

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PeterLarson

13 years ago

Now, you can pray that the rich in Osaka and Tokyo would give half of their money to help their suffering Japanese brethren. They need to move beyond "obligation giving" and into giving without expectation of return. This would help greatly and would help alleviate some suffering.

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Kay King

13 years ago

You seriously think the trained workers trying to control this mess need a martyr getting in the way - and then should take the time to put you out of your misery? What could you possibly hope to accomplish?

You have the audacity to lecture Japanese people on what they "should" contribute? I assume you have already moved beyond "obligation giving" yourself...

If you are indeed serious - then I am indeed astounded.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

You seriously think the trained workers trying to control this mess need a martyr getting in the way - and then should take the time to put you out of your misery? What could you possibly hope to accomplish?

You have the audacity to lecture Japanese people on what they "should" contribute? I assume you have already moved beyond "obligation giving" yourself...

If you are indeed serious - then I am indeed astounded.

Same HERE! Some VERY rich people have ALSO suffered, and the people don't need MONEY. SURE, some money could maybe eventually help, but only by trying to get back to normal.

And to suggest going over on a suicide mission? Even a nuclear EXPERT would take time to get acclimated to the situation.(It would be akin to taking a new york taxi driver and putting them in LA. SURE they could drive, and may know all the rules, but they don't know THAT area!) And FORGET about a NOVICE! With all the questions, and the space taken up, ONE person would probably be worse than none, and 50 would be even WORSE! Of course, they COULD get up to speed with another worker BEFORE going down, but would they then be able to help?

You want to help? Maybe a large ship to transport goods, and get people AWAY from there! Maybe even have some pump to try to pump sea water to the plant. THAT would likely be unuobstructive and helpful. Alas, I'm not rich enough and don't feel it is worth the risk to me.

Steve

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg Wildermuth

I think what they need help with is clearing debris. There are lots of foreign aid workers doing that and I'm sure you could volunteer with some organization. People don't have food, water and heat in that area, but I think they're doing all they can. As far as the nuke situation, they've got the Japanese army spraying it with seawater and doing everything they can.

And actually money would help there.

Well, my main points were that money wouldn't help the people in the areas, and the EXPERIENCED workers are probably best left to take care of things. I didn't know about them cleaning up the debris there like that yet. Yesterday, as I recall, they showed a freeway that looked like it was brand new, and in good condition. WHY was it newsworthy? It was a road that was OBLITERATED by the tsunami, and it was remarkable that in like a week they repaired the road.

In the US, things are hot and cold. The economy will be HELPED by japanese companies that are planning on building in the US, and HURT by companies laying off people because certain key parts aren't being shipped from Japan.

Steve

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dagaul101

13 years ago

I certainly hope this isn't the case, but if it is, would it be safe for any authority to spread pandemonium with this?

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Nuclear Plant Meltdown in Japan?

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