Kiss Your Vitaminsand Herbs Goodbye NC and soon others

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

They would all be arrested as felons

How do you know?

It seems that all this bill does is fix a current loophole whereby out-of-state practitioners who practice without a license are currently "Class I felons" but those in-state who practice without a license are guilty only of a "Class I misdemeanor" instead?

If that anomaly is cleared up, are you seriously saying that thousands (tens of thousands?) of people, including midwives, allegedly, will suddenly "all be arrested"?

Call me a skepchick, but I really do have some difficulty believing that.

Don't you?

(And what would it have to do with the availability of "vitamins and herbs", anyway?)

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Dave Patterson 13 years ago

"Scepchick'...

Good word
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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

How do you know?

It seems that all this bill does is fix a current loophole whereby out-of-state practitioners who practice without a license are currently "Class I felons" but those in-state who practice without a license are guilty only of a "Class I misdemeanor" instead?

If that anomaly is cleared up, are you seriously saying that thousands (tens of thousands?) of people, including midwives, allegedly, will suddenly "all be arrested"?

Call me a skepchick, but I really do have some difficulty believing that.

Don't you?

(And what would it have to do with the availability of "vitamins and herbs", anyway?)

Alexa - over here, as of December 2011 - primatine mist, which works better than anything on the market for asthma and has none of the dangerous side effects of perscription drugs will be banned. 40 million people are at risk.
Injectable Vitamin C and B were just banned. As you may or may not know - Injectable Vitamin C is one of the only ways to stop flu at deadly stages. It was available before but only if you ASKED for it. The majority of hospitals would watch someone die of flu rather than actually offering it.

It is now also impossible in the US to sue a pharmecuetical manufacturer if they give out tainted vaccines no matter how permanent the damage, even death -- Even if it can be proven the vaccine was tainted.

No - this is not something to be skeptical about. Remember the bill that Canadians rose against not too long ago that would have had police at the door for things like growing garlic? I think it was 51C or something close. This is the same type of bill. It only looks benign. There are many loopholes in it. This is also from a state that has police raiding organic farms at gunpoint, don't forget.

The only thing I am questioning about this is that I think that DC had to take the reward for spying on neighbors down because of public outrage. I could be wrong and not going to go check.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 13 years ago

I hear you, Sal. I hear you. I'm on your side, believe it or not.

But hysterically bewailing the "fact" that tens of thousands "are suddenly going to be arrested and sent to prison" (which, with respect to the OP, is utter nonsense and we both know it!), is exactly the kind of grotesque hyperbole that so understandably turns people against the cause! :p

It instinctively makes me wince and feel "If this is how the people on my side of the argument are typically presenting their 'facts', do I really want to be associated with the argument at all?". It alienates and embarrasses me. I'm just saying ...

Originally Posted by John M Kane

They would all be arrested as felons, rounded up, prosecuted and sent to prison

I'm still asking: how do you know? And: is this kind of language and reaction really your best chance to elicit public sympathy and convert others to your perspective? :rolleyes:

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I hear you, Sal. I hear you. I'm on your side, believe it or not.

But hysterically bewailing the "fact" that tens of thousands "are suddenly going to be arrested and sent to prison" (which, with respect to the OP, is utter nonsense and we both know it!), is exactly the kind of grotesque hyperbole that so understandably turns people against the cause! :p

It instinctively makes me wince and feel "If this is how the people on my side of the argument are typically presenting their 'facts', do I really want to be associated with the argument at all?". It alienates and embarrasses me. I'm just saying ...

I'm still asking: how do you know? And: is this kind of language and reaction really your best chance to elicit public sympathy and convert others to your perspective? :rolleyes:

How do you know? Read the bill. That's how I always know for sure. I didn't see anywhere that current certifications were considered legal unless they are given by the traditional pharmaceutical medical complex. There are those in alternative medicine who do have actual Western medical designations and I don't see where they can be prosecuted. It does leave room for supplement stores to be shut down, though. Also - considering the fact that there are organic farms raided at gunpoint for no just cause.....
can we really take the chance?

Of course they would not just start a full campaign to jail these people, they will do so incrementally, the way they have been for over a decade now - but it's all coming to a head to a point that it is time for people to react strongly. While people new to the issue might need softer persuasion, those who have followed the direction of the tide since they signed CODEX should be more than slightly alarmed.

Perhaps the reason you don't see eye to eye on this issue with the OP is because you aren't over here and don't understand the progression of what is going on here as we do.

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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

If you know what Dominoes do, then don't be too surprised if many other states follow if this is passed.Big Pharma doesn't like losing any cash to alternative treatments, which has been growing,so this is their answer,simply eliminate the competition.

If these treatments were actually effective, wouldn't big pharma just make money by selling herbal extracts and homeopathic remedies?

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

If these treatments were actually effective, wouldn't big pharma just make money by selling herbal extracts and homeopathic remedies?

They would be if they could patent them.
Do they work? I'm alive. I shouldn't be - I ran away from chemo decades ago. My dog is alive. He should have been dead last summer. As far as I'm concerned they work a lot better than pharms. The only thing my vet could say about my dog's bone cancer was cut off his arm or put him to sleep. He's alive and well -- without traditional medicine. If you try to tell me they don't work, I just shake my head and consider you brainwashed. I've seen alternatives work too well too many times to listen to medical/industrial complex claptrap.

And see there - isn't that nice the way it is now? We have a choice. Nobody in ownership of YOUR body telling you what you will subject yourself to. It's my hope that people will think that maybe this is one time that the nosy people who want you to live as THEY want to should just shut up and allow people their god given right to decide for themselves.

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Kay King 13 years ago

I'm not going to argue medicine or alternative medicine -

but I will say that article is inflammatory and is the ONLY article being shown that makes such claims. The one article from that site has been posted as is on a couple other blogs.

The site itself has made it's rep by the interpretations of some medical issues and treatments it offers - whle also selling natural meds, of course.

The NC bill is listed on the state govt site as meant to "clarify penalty of practicing medicine without a license". The bill was proposed a couple months ago and has not raised any fuss except the blog.

I think this comes under "don't believe everything you read.

kay
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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

They would be if they could patent them.

Well they can. Herbs and other plants most certainly can be patented. Of course, the plant to be patented has to be a unique strain. A company cannot patent the common dandelion. But consider the case of tumeric, which up until 1995 was patented by the University of Mississippi medical center(1).

These guys know a thing or two about patenting plants.

Heck, you know what's crazy? Eli Lilly owns a patent on the human insulin gene.(2)

My point is that patents are not an obstacle to the pharmaceutical companies.

What is an obstacle when it comes to marketing herbs as drugs is that their effectiveness has to be demonstrated to the FDA. Unfortunately, many promising looking trials with herbs as medicine are not replicable. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) anecdotal evidence is not proof enough.

But suppose that a natural remedy like St. John's Wort could be proven to work in a clinical trial. Suppose that this study was empirically sound, the outcome could be reproduced by others.

If herbal medicine were backed by that kind of scientific (not anecdotal) evidence, then a drug company like Eli Lily could take advantage of such an herbal medicine by developing their own patentable strain of the plant, a strain that has the highest amount of the active ingredients. Eli Lily could own the market with a standardized proven to be effective herbal remedy.

The hard part for big pharma is proving scientifically that any of these alternative remedies really work.

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Patrician

13 years ago

What has been EMPIRICALLY proven is that many drugs OK'd by the FDA are killing and maiming people every day by the thousands-

Yet they continue to sell them because they are like a Mafia. They do not care about people, only money and big business.

At some point when enough real people (not lab rats) die and sue them they will recall the drugs - at least they are forced to acknowledge 'may cause stroke, bleeding ulcers, etc' on their ads in the meantime. Hurt them in the wallet they will take action to 'do no harm'.

When it comes to alternatives unless they can think of how to make the big bucks they are not interested.

They will continue their studies on their drugs of choice and sold by their cronies - and that will justify the high prices they are able to charge to sick and dying people for them - and it is just like 'backroom deals' with kickbacks - don't kid yourself -- this is the dark side of capitalism...

Any "ALTERNATIVE" to their way of doing business is suspect because they can't exploit it for their own gain.

They are not interested in PREVENTING disease in the first place by diet and natural means. Where is the profit in that?

God forbid people should grow their own herbs - wow that is really a communist conspiracy if I ever heard one.
:rolleyes:

With that said there are quacks and even eviler doers among us and I support not letting them make claims to desperate people who may die because their fake claims don't work.

I think they cover that though when they make the labels say 'we are not claiming blah blah'...

Call me a socialist but medicine, food and shelter I do not believe should be in the for profit arena - it should be a birth right. period.

p.s. it is going to be a problem for them because now MDs - REAL doctors are getting certified in homeopathic EDIT NATUROPATHIC NOT HOMEOPATHIC medicine and they are blowing the whistle all over the place about evil drugs and how you can many times alleviate your condition in a safer and more effective way - naturally -- that is even including removing the condition not just the symptom and without lining the pockets of the legal drug lords. (some of these have been practiced for hundreds of years in other countries with EVIDENCE that they work and/or do no harm).

Originally Posted by mojojuju

Well they can. Herbs and other plants most certainly can be patented. Of course, the plant to be patented has to be a unique strain. A company cannot patent the common dandelion. But consider the case of tumeric, which up until 1995 was patented by the University of Mississippi medical center(1).

These guys know a thing or two about patenting plants.

Heck, you know what's crazy? Eli Lilly owns a patent on the human insulin gene.(2)

My point is that patents are not an obstacle to the pharmaceutical companies.

What is an obstacle when it comes to marketing herbs as drugs is that their effectiveness has to be demonstrated to the FDA. Unfortunately, many promising looking trials with herbs as medicine are not replicable. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) anecdotal evidence is not proof enough.

But suppose that a natural remedy like St. John's Wort could be proven to work in a clinical trial. Suppose that this study was empirically sound, the outcome could be reproduced by others.

If herbal medicine were backed by that kind of scientific (not anecdotal) evidence, then a drug company like Eli Lily could take advantage of such an herbal medicine by developing their own patentable strain of the plant, a strain that has the highest amount of the active ingredients. Eli Lily could own the market with a standardized proven to be effective herbal remedy.

The hard part for big pharma is proving scientifically that any of these alternative remedies really work.

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Kay King 13 years ago

God forbid people should grow their own herbs

I've grown my own herbs for years with no problem...oh, you mean THAT herb? j/k
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- John M Kane 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  I've grown my own herbs for years with no problem...oh, you mean THAT herb? j/k
  
  I love to use a lot of herbs when I do my baking,a REALL LOT
  
  Here's a quick video of me backing some "brownies"
  
  YouTube - Muppet Show - Swedish Chef - making...
  
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

What has been EMPIRICALLY proven is that many drugs OK'd by the FDA are killing and maiming people every day by the thousands-

RIGHT!

Originally Posted by Patrician

Yet they continue to sell them because they are like a Mafia. They do not care about people, only money and big business.

RIGHT AGAIN!

Originally Posted by Patrician

At some point when enough real people (not lab rats) die and sue them they will recall the drugs - at least they are forced to acknowledge 'may cause stroke, bleeding ulcers, etc' on their ads in the meantime. Hurt them in the wallet they will take action to 'do no harm'.

I WISH!

Originally Posted by Patrician

When it comes to alternatives unless they can think of how to make the big bucks they are not interested.

They will continue their studies on their drugs of choice and sold by their cronies - and that will justify the high prices they are able to charge to sick and dying people for them - and it is just like 'backroom deals' with kickbacks - don't kid yourself -- this is the dark side of capitalism...

Any "ALTERNATIVE" to their way of doing business is suspect because they can't exploit it for their own gain.

They are not interested in PREVENTING disease in the first place by diet and natural means. Where is the profit in that?

God forbid people should grow their own herbs - wow that is really a communist conspiracy if I ever heard one.
:rolleyes:

RIGHT!

Originally Posted by Patrician

With that said there are quacks and even eviler doers among us and I support not letting them make claims to desperate people who may die because their fake claims don't work.

I think they cover that though when they make the labels say 'we are not claiming blah blah'...

YEAH, of course you described some quacks earlier.

Originally Posted by Patrician

Call me a socialist but medicine, food and shelter I do not believe should be in the for profit arena - it should be a birth right. period.

As long as people pay their own way as much as they can, I agree.

Steve

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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

[...] p.s. it is going to be a problem for them because now MDs - REAL doctors are getting certified in homeopathic medicine and they are blowing the whistle all over the place about evil drugs and how you can many times alleviate your condition in a safer and more effective way [...]

I would hope those MDs fully disclose to their patients the fact that homeopathy has been clinically proven to do absolutely nothing. Consumers have a right to know that, I think.

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Patrician

13 years ago

Maybe I picked the wrong word -'homeopathy'-

I should have said. 'Naturopathic' - this is vitamins and food and some herbs whereas I know homeopathy is different and I don't really know enough to comment on that...

They have their own studies that show the thousands of miraculous changes and testimonials I have read from people who suffered for years from conditions (and the drugs they were given). As well many conditions are caused by foods and just stopping their use can be all that is needed to reverse the symptoms (processed, 'refined' foods, etc., allergies)

Originally Posted by mojojuju

I would hope those MDs fully disclose to their patients the fact that homeopathy has been clinically proven to do absolutely nothing. Consumers have a right to know that, I think.

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Kurt 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Call me a socialist but medicine, food and shelter I do not believe should be in the for profit arena - it should be a birth right. period.
.

There's a few things I believe are better handled with "socialism"...The legal system is one. We supply a lawyer for anyone that is arrested. This is socialism, that's part of our Constitution.

But, we're now starting to get into private, for hire prisons, which I'm totally against. It is such a conflict of interest to keep cells full to make a profit...Think about when someone is up for parole, it's in the best financial interest of the institution to "shade" their reports to keep a person in prison when they should be released, just to make more money...Prisons for profit don't make money releasing people.

There's a couple of other examples where things shouldn't be private (education, military, etc), but the prison for profit trend is one that really bothers me. Profit should never be even a remotely possible factor in a person's freedom in a "free" society.
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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

Well they can. Herbs and other plants most certainly can be patented. Of course, the plant to be patented has to be a unique strain. A company cannot patent the common dandelion. But consider the case of tumeric, which up until 1995 was patented by the University of Mississippi medical center(1).

These guys know a thing or two about patenting plants.

Heck, you know what's crazy? Eli Lilly owns a patent on the human insulin gene.(2)

My point is that patents are not an obstacle to the pharmaceutical companies.

What is an obstacle when it comes to marketing herbs as drugs is that their effectiveness has to be demonstrated to the FDA. Unfortunately, many promising looking trials with herbs as medicine are not replicable. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) anecdotal evidence is not proof enough.

But suppose that a natural remedy like St. John's Wort could be proven to work in a clinical trial. Suppose that this study was empirically sound, the outcome could be reproduced by others.

If herbal medicine were backed by that kind of scientific (not anecdotal) evidence, then a drug company like Eli Lily could take advantage of such an herbal medicine by developing their own patentable strain of the plant, a strain that has the highest amount of the active ingredients. Eli Lily could own the market with a standardized proven to be effective herbal remedy.

The hard part for big pharma is proving scientifically that any of these alternative remedies really work.

So if you want ginger, turmeric, basil, sage - are you going to go buy them from a pharmaceutical company, grow them yourself, or get them from the spice or produce isle of the grocery store? If they decide to patent garlic, does that mean we are no longer free to plant it or buy it as food?

I've never heard of turmeric being patented - probably because it's always been in a jar in our spice cupboard. There are tablets, though and some are done with the black pepper already in the tablet (for absorption). Perhaps that is what the patent was. While I have and would by the caps again, I don't have to. I can just go to the grocery store.

Doesn't sound to me like something that pharms consider a profitable project......as long as the stuff is legal for us in the first place.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

So if you want ginger, turmeric, basil, sage - are you going to go buy them from a pharmaceutical company, grow them yourself, or get them from the spice or produce isle of the grocery store? If they decide to patent garlic, does that mean we are no longer free to plant it or buy it as food?

I've never heard of turmeric being patented - probably because it's always been in a jar in our spice cupboard. There are tablets, though and some are done with the black pepper already in the tablet (for absorption). Perhaps that is what the patent was. While I have and would by the caps again, I don't have to. I can just go to the grocery store.

Doesn't sound to me like something that pharms consider a profitable project......as long as the stuff is legal for us in the first place.

Turmeric is NOT a recent invention. NOBODY could patent it unless it is a unique strain! All the CORN we have today, for example, was CREATED to be the way it is. Someone COULD have patented that! Apparently, Broccoli was patented. But those are relatively recent things. Apparently turmeric is FAR FAR FAR older!

Steve

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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

So if you want ginger, turmeric, basil, sage - are you going to go buy them from a pharmaceutical company, grow them yourself, or get them from the spice or produce isle of the grocery store?

For culinary purposes I would not purchase herbs from a pharmaceutical company. But if I didn't grow my own herbs, and I needed an herbal supplement for a health problem and a pharmaceutical company offered an herb I need with a guaranteed concentration of medicinally relevant active compounds, I think I'd choose what the pharmaceutical company is offering over what is sold by a provider with no oversight which guarantees the concentration of the substance.

Originally Posted by HeySal

If they decide to patent garlic, does that mean we are no longer free to plant it or buy it as food?

If the patent restricts you from doing so, then yes. But nobody is going to be granted a generic patent on "garlic". However, if a proprietary garlic plant which has enhanced medicinal effects and which is different than other existing forms of garlic, then yes, a novel type of garlic can be produced and patented such that you are not free to plant it or buy it unless your doing so is in accord with the terms of the patent holder.

Consider how a company like Monsanto patents corn or soybean seeds. Their patents make it such that a farmer can buy Monsanto seeds and grow them. But the patent says that farmers may not harvest the crops grown with Monsanto seeds and use it as seed stock for the following year.

Other plant patents don't prohibit you from growing something, but they place restrictions on how a plant can be used.

Eli Lily was granted a patent related to Rosy Periwinkle. The patent was for the isolation of two alkaloids found in the Rosy Periwinkle plant. These alkaloids from the Rosy Periwinkle were used by Eli Lily to create cancer fighting drugs.

Eli Lily's patent didn't prohibit people from growing Rosy Periwinkle, but it was designed to prohibit others from isolating the two cancer fighting alkaloids from the plant to create cancer fighting drugs. Eli Lily made millions from the Rosy Periwinkle [1].

Originally Posted by HeySal

I've never heard of turmeric being patented - probably because it's always been in a jar in our spice cupboard.

Well, luckily tumeric is not patented anymore, so you can take it out of the spice cupboard without going to jail.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Doesn't sound to me like something that pharms consider a profitable project......as long as the stuff is legal for us in the first place.

Pharmaceutical companies pay a lot of attention to natural substances.

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John M Kane

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

The hard part for big pharma is proving scientifically that any of these alternative remedies really work.

I think the real hard part is for big pharma to scientifically twist their research data enough to show any of their drugs really do work. unless you meant injure and make people generally more worse off than without there miracle concoctions.

Cancer is their gravy train.why would they ever find a "cure"?
It is a BUSINESS after all and like any other business who would work to cut profits intentionally?
They are NOT in it for giggles.

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HeySal 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

I think the real hard part is for big pharma to scientifically twist their research data enough to show any of their drugs really do work.

Crunching figures is really easy work John. They got fluoride through in the first place by not mentioning that natural and the industrial waste they are dumping for us to "dispose of" since they can't do that legally, are two very different types of fluoride. The EPA won't allow fluoride to be dumped in water because it kills waterlife. SO some idiot crunched a bunch of figures that shows it to be beneficial to our teeth and sedentary and boom, we're drinking it. The reports were ridiculous and never once proved a benefit - but they sure sounded nice. They know what they are doing and have all the money in the world to do it with....our money. You tell anyone else in the world the price of a perscribed drug you take and they are shocked crapless. Can anybody say "CASH COW". -
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Alexa Smith

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

Cancer is their gravy train.why would they ever find a "cure"?

Maybe you'd like to ask the opinion of some of the parents of the tens of thousands of children in the world who've been cured from acute leukemia over the last couple of decades by modern chemotherapy, bringing the death-rate down from very close to 100% to under 30% these days, who are now leading perfectly normal lives free from any illness?

I suspect that you wouldn't really like to do that, though: doing so would, as others have found, undoubtedly expose some of your ill-informed prejudices for what they really are. :rolleyes:

"Oops"

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Maybe you'd like to ask the opinion of some of the parents of the tens of thousands of children in the world who've been cured from acute leukemia over the last couple of decades by modern chemotherapy, bringing the death-rate down from very close to 100% to under 30% these days, who are now leading perfectly normal lives free from any illness?

I suspect that you wouldn't really like to do that, though: doing so would, as others have found, undoubtedly expose some of your ill-informed prejudices for what they really are. :rolleyes:

"Oops"

I'd like to know how the tens of thousands of children got leukemia in the first place.
If tens of thousands where saved, how many had it and died?
My wife died from cancer 8 years ago after going through chemo.
What I learned from that experience is how brain washed many doctor's are. My favorite quote from my wife's doctor, "Nutrition doesn't matter when you have cancer, only the cancer drugs will help her".

After all the research I did on cancer and it's 'cures', if (when) I get it I'll only do natural remedies. At least then when I die I won't be filled with the poison from the so called doctors.

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John Henderson 13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

My favorite quote from my wife's doctor, "Nutrition doesn't matter when you have cancer, only the cancer drugs will help her".

Hey Thom, here's one that I just recently found out about...
Blueberries Health Benefits - cancer prevention, reverse memory loss and more
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- ThomM 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by John Henderson
  
  Hey Thom, here's one that I just recently found out about...
  Blueberries Health Benefits - cancer prevention, reverse memory loss and more
  
  Way ahead of you John
  I've known about the benefits of Blueberries for a long time now.
  In fact I started prepping an area in my yard for planting Blueberries this year (requires a very low soil pH.).
  Maybe it's because I grew up in the country, but I am to this day amazed that people run for man made drugs when they're sick. Our bodies are made up of natural, organic components. What possibly makes people think that using an artificial substance in our bodies is better then using a natural organic substance. Maybe it's because most of the diseases these days are caused by the artifical crap we feed ourselves in the first place.
  
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Alexa Smith Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I'd like to know how the tens of thousands of children got leukemia in the first place.

Probably the same causes as the children who used to die from it in ancient Rome a couple of thousand years ago, so graphically and accurately described by Tacitus?

Originally Posted by ThomM

If tens of thousands where saved, how many had it and died?

The long-term cure rate's over 70% now, Thom. It had always been around 0% in the pre-chemotherapy days.

I'm not sure why you're putting the word cures in inverted commas. There were two people in my year at university who'd been cured in childhood from acute leukemia. They both lead totally normal lives. They don't even have to go back for annual check-ups any more.

I appreciate entirely that these facts don't fit in with your own prejudices, but that doesn't actually make them any less factual.

I'm just very sorry indeed to hear that your wife was less fortunate. Progress is slow indeed.
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- ThomM 13 years ago
  
  Probably the same causes as the children who used to die from it in ancient Rome a couple of thousand years ago, so graphically and accurately described by Tacitus?
  Are you saying that after two thousand years no one has figured out why they get it? Seems that finding out why and preventing that would be a better approach.
  
  The long-term cure rate's over 70% now, Thom. It had always been around 0% in the pre-chemotherapy days.
  Bull do a search on essiac and on Rick Simpson and see what happens when real natural cures are found.
  I'm not sure why you're putting the word cures in inverted commas. There were two people in my year at university who'd been cured in childhood from acute leukemia. They both lead totally normal lives. They don't even have to go back for annual check-ups any more.
  Because cures aren't what the pharm companies want. Treatments are all they care about, no profit in cures. If some people are cured it's either by accident or because they had a doctor who really did care about their patients.
  I appreciate entirely that these facts don't fit in with your own prejudices, but that doesn't actually make them any less factual.
  My prejudices are based on 58 years of living and the personal experiences I've had both in my life and the lives of people I've loved
  I'm just very sorry indeed to hear that your wife was less fortunate. Progress is slow indeed.
  If the best the excepted medical community can come up with in 2,000 years of fighting cancer is to poison you and hope the poison kills more unhealthy cells then healthy ones then I'd say there isn't any progress.
  
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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

They would be if they could patent them.

Corporations have patented down to the molecule,
because of organic compounds that can be grown into actual things.
Like the stem cell, like the cpu on your computer...people and companies have been looking for the superconductor for years (less resistance in electricity) it very well could be organic. That will change the world overnight..no exaggeration.

Crazy?...thirty years ago, I and many other people would have laughed if you told them one day you could "own" a keyword.
They have tried and to my limited knowledge haven't succeeded yet in patenting rain in certain places.

It will not stop until 'they' own the very air you breathe...crazy?...see above.

The Corporation Probably better ones by now...

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Roaddog

Corporations have patented down to the molecule,
because of organic compounds that can be grown into actual things.
Like the stem cell, like the cpu on your computer...people and companies have been looking for the superconductor for years (less resistance in electricity) it very well could be organic. That will change the world overnight..no exaggeration.

Crazy?...thirty years ago, I and many other people would have laughed if you told them one day you could "own" a keyword.
They have tried and to my limited knowledge haven't succeeded yet in patenting rain in certain places.

It will not stop until 'they' own the very air you breathe...crazy?...see above.

The Corporation Probably better ones by now...

Actually, this is wrong! They HAVEN'T gotten a regular patent down to the atom, or even down to the NATURAL molecule! Although I guess you COULD patent an atom if it were rare enough, and you could isolate it. INTEL could patent some NEW component, or a part they built on to, but not anything else. There is a LOT intel does that they can't patent simply because THEY didn't create it.

With stem cells, they can only get an APPLICATION patent, or PROCESS(to refine it, etc...). That is a special LIMITED patent. They CAN'T patent the stem cell, but its USE or some preparation process.

They HAVE superconductors! They always have! As I recall, they use them in MRI machines! BTW they don't merely have "less resistance to electricity". The problem is they want a stable superconductor that works at room temperature. And the change WON'T be overnight, they have to APPLY it. It could take months, or YEARS to see the FIRST use! ESPECIALLY if it is organic.

Keywords have been "patentable", actually trademarkable, but it is, in the US, STILL through the USPTO, for MANY DECADES!! US Patent and TRADEMARK Office.

If you didn't know it, oh well.... HECK, in most ads, if you look closely, they have a disclaimer! INTEL, for example, will say Advanced micro devices holds a trademark for AMD, etc.... If they use the term in their ad!

Steve

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Actually, this is wrong! They HAVEN'T gotten a regular patent down to the atom, or even down to the NATURAL molecule! Although I guess you COULD patent an atom if it were rare enough, and you could isolate it. INTEL could patent some NEW component, or a part they built on to, but not anything else. There is a LOT intel does that they can't patent simply because THEY didn't create it.

With stem cells, they can only get an APPLICATION patent, or PROCESS(to refine it, etc...). That is a special LIMITED patent. They CAN'T patent the stem cell, but its USE or some preparation process.
[quote]

Still a patent.... limited, special, pink, yellow, orange or indifferent

U.S. office upholds embryonic stem cell patents - JSOnline
U.S. office upholds embryonic stem cell patents

Running Out of Decent Molecules to Patent?

They HAVE superconductors! They always have! As I recall, they use them in MRI machines! BTW they don't merely have "less resistance to electricity". The problem is they want a stable superconductor that works at room temperature. And the change WON'T be overnight, they have to APPLY it. It could take months, or YEARS to see the FIRST use! ESPECIALLY if it is organic.

We are talking apples and oranges.
At very short distances, in machines and such it has been around, the problem is TRANSMISSION LINES. Pushing voltage at short distances is NOT what they are talking about.
After it's in use it "will change the world overnight", and that expression has been used by people with more knowledge than you and I put together. Yes it is basically less or no resistance. Electrical transmission hasn't been a problem in short distances for quite a while. Do I actually have to go into detail about ohms, voltage and amps?

"Because these materials have no electrical resistance, meaning electrons can travel through them freely, they can carry large amounts of electrical current for long periods of time without losing energy as heat."

Heat which comes from resistance.
HowStuffWorks "What is superconductivity?"

I have done two major trades over the years, and electrical was one of them. This stuff is as old as Omni magazine

Keywords have been "patentable", actually trademarkable, but it is, in the US, STILL through the USPTO, for MANY DECADES!! US Patent and TRADEMARK Office.

Kind of nitpicky ain't we? Maybe I didn't go back enough decades in my simple example?

I don't mind people telling me I am wrong... WHEN I am.

Just because I didn't go into detail down to the molecule, doesn't make me wrong...that's just patently wrong.

You seem to be like this guy I know over here...

I could tell him it's twilight and he'd say no it's dusk.

Jim

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Roaddog

We are talking apples and oranges.
At very short distances, in machines and such it has been around

YEP, because it is needed

the problem is TRANSMISSION LINES. Pushing voltage at short distances is NOT what they are talking about.
After it's in use it "will change the world overnight", and that expression has been used by people with more knowledge than you and I put together. Yes it is basically less or no resistance. Electrical transmission hasn't been a problem in short distances for quite a while. Do I actually have to go into detail about ohms, voltage and amps?

OH, I stand corrected! It won't be months, or a year, but YEARS or DECADES!

NOPE, I understand about hysteresis loss, crosstalk, capacitance, inductance, ohms, voltage, and amps, and how even though copper has a relatively low resistance that the distance can make that substantial, and how they drop the current(amps) and increase the volts to compensate and that that is why you have those huge boxes(power transformers) to do so, and why you see all those high voltage signs when nobody ever really uses such high voltages.

Do I have to explain trucks and trains and manpower and jackhammers, etc... to you to explain why even a tiny city won't have that happen overnight? How about HYPE and HISTORY to explain their use of such terms?

"Because these materials have no electrical resistance, meaning electrons can travel through them freely, they can carry large amounts of electrical current for long periods of time without losing energy as heat."

Heat which comes from resistance.
HowStuffWorks "What is superconductivity?"

I have done two major trades over the years, and electrical was one of them. This stuff is as old as Omni magazine

You have THAT right! Even with NO heat and resistance you may lose some power. And we should BOTH know that EVEN if the technology were FREE, the implementation is VERY expensive. I suppose you'll tell me it can be very thin, is flexible, covered with a FANTASTIC insulator, and could be threaded through the areas cable is. EVEN if that were true(we have NO idea), and it were allowed(probably NOT), it would STILL be VERY expensive! And YEAH, you could talk about long term savings, but STILL...

ALSO, the material could get HOT in various places, so it will have to be a FANTASTIC super conductor. That is expecting a lot. It will have to be relatively strong to work with current structures. In short, transmission line use INCREASES the cost, and DECREASES the tolerances. That makes it less likely to work there. I mean HEY, if we could survive it, and this planet were cold enough, we could have started working with this stuff FAR earlier.

Steve

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Kay King 13 years ago

Tonic water with Quinine works like a charm.

If you're not at work, only makes sense to toss in a bit of vodka at the same time

Sal, RLS is a syndrome if you use the word's definition:

"A group of symptoms that consistently occur together or a condition characterized by a set of associated symptoms."

The muscles of your legs contract involuntarily. Even when sitting totally relaxed there are times when you can see the muscles in my legs twitch. It's not lack of exercise and not poor nutrition. Other symptoms are severe leg cramps, painful cramps in the feet and the feeling you have to move your legs when the muscles keep twitching - which is why it disrupts sleep. Thankfully, it's not a big, bad disease to be cured - but it's a pain when you can't stop it. It's funny that quinine used to be viewed as a miracle drug - then was available easily for years - and now is highly restricted. Why? Probably only because it's not profitable....

I don't think anyone can be "tuned up" physically to avoid every small condition or syndrome that can occur with the human body. The trick is to find the least invasive way to manage the problem. I'm not a fan of big pharma in any way - but I have friends alive today because of chemo and radiation treatments. Of course, there are others who weren't saved by the treatment.

A friend here died two weeks ago of cancer - and her doctor told her though she could opt for chemo and radiation and it might extend life for a while, she could not be cured. That makes 5 people I personally have known who were advised by the medical community that radical treatment was not their only option and couldn't provide a cure for their cancer. Four of those people chose not to take the treatments.

I think many of the newer treatments are amazing when used wisely - but sometimes the advances lead us to believe everything should be "fixable" and it's not. Sometimes you don't know if a treatment will work until you try it.

kay
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- ThomM 13 years ago
  
  If you're not at work, only makes sense to toss in a bit of vodka at the same time
  
  Vodka:confused: No Gin.
  Why do I suddenly desire a Gimlet:rolleyes:
  
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  Kay King 13 years ago
  
  The only thing I like about gin is the pretty ice blue color under fluorescent lights - can't stand the stuff for drinking!
  
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  Dave Patterson 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  The only thing I like about gin is the pretty ice blue color under fluorescent lights - can't stand the stuff for drinking!
  
  It always reminds me of some old 50's/60's hair tonic I used to (smell and) see purchased at barber shops when I was a kid...
  
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  ThomM 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dave Patterson
  
  It always reminds me of some old 50's/60's hair tonic I used to (smell and) see purchased at barber shops when I was a kid...
  
  That would be Lilac Vegetal
  
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seasoned

13 years ago

I HATE WINDOWS! I almost had my post done, set my keybopard down to be more comfotable, and it CLOSED THE WINDOW!!!!!

Around 2005, the OUTLAWED various prohormones, They had to SPECIFICALLY exclude female hormones!

The FDA OUTLAWED an essential amino acid. They OUTLAWED stating what things can cure, unless given an EXPENSIVE license! They OUTLAWED, or are at least planning to, a CURE for KIDNEY DAMAGE!

So don't think they WON'T, because they HAVE BEFORE!!!!

Steve

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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Around 2005, the OUTLAWED various prohormones, They had to SPECIFICALLY exclude female hormones!

Could you be a little more specific?

Originally Posted by seasoned

The FDA OUTLAWED an essential amino acid.

Are you referring to Tryptophan?

read about why it was outlawed

A big problem with alternative medicine is lack of oversight in their production.

Originally Posted by seasoned

They OUTLAWED stating what things can cure, unless given an EXPENSIVE license! They OUTLAWED, or are at least planning to, a CURE for KIDNEY DAMAGE!

They outlawed making unsubstantiated claims. I worked at a store that sold alternative remedies throughout college where I sold many kinds of herbal preparations and other supplements. One of the first things I learned about selling health supplements is that I wasn't allowed to make any claims about a products effectiveness. For instance, I couldn't say to a customer that "Taking these licorice root capsules will cure your ulcer". But I could say, "Many customers buy these licorice root capsules to treat ulcers. Many of them report that it works."

I don't mind laws that prohibit people from bull****ting me when my health is on the line.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

Could you be a little more specific?

Drug Scheduling Actions 2005 - Implementation of the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004

Originally Posted by mojojuju

Are you referring to Tryptophan?

YES

Originally Posted by mojojuju

read about why it was outlawed

A big problem with alternative medicine is lack of oversight in their production.

It is NOT an alternative medicine, it is a SUPPLEMENT! And I saw a whole documentary on this, so I KNOW why they stated they would ban it. Long story short, some IDIOTS at a japanese firm proved heysal RIGHT! They used a GMO product to try to create tryptophan, didn't test it, and it was at least piotentially DEADLY! Many people DIED!

They are doing the SAME thing with food. People did the SAME with tylenol, etc.... YOU are trying to say that they were reasonable in this and had a valid reason when, if followed 100%, the PLANET would be SHUT DOWN! NO PLANES! NO CARS! NO POWER! NO GAS! NO FOOD!

GEEZ This morning I watched a documentary about a plane that flew for a year! It looked nice and sleek, flew high, and was FAST! The FIRST intercontinental commercial jet aircraft. It flew for a YEAR with almost NO problems, and suddenly started crashing all over. ***I*** instantly guessed, and would have THEN that it would be metal fatigue, or adhesive fatigue. Somehow THEY couldn't figure it out. They kept saying it was safe EVEN as they all kept crashing! They FINALLY grounded them! Not finding any problems, they started flying AGAIN! The crashes continued! They finally grounded them AGAIN! THIS time they took the LONG way around to find the problem. They found it! METAL FATIGUE! ******DUH******! They fixed it, it continued to fly, but boeing got a foothold and the other company only lasted until like the 1980s.

So WHY do they let HUNDREDS die and see MILLIONS of dollars go bye bye, but don't do the same with a dozen people? SURE, that company was british, but I could give american examples too.

What about the cadmium and nickle and lead in chinese products sent to the US? And the US STILL lets them ship that junk for FREE! Cadmium, nickle, and lead are ALSO poisons and they were in/on supplements, food, and baby toys.

They outlawed making unsubstantiated claims. I worked at a store that sold alternative remedies throughout college where I sold many kinds of herbal preparations and other supplements. One of the first things I learned about selling health supplements is that I wasn't allowed to make any claims about a products effectiveness. For instance, I couldn't say to a customer that "Taking these licorice root capsules will cure your ulcer". But I could say, "Many customers buy these licorice root capsules to treat ulcers. Many of them report that it works."

But these claims ARE substantiated! The WORLD basically KNOWS that Vitamin C prevents and cures SCURVY! And that B vitamin I spoke of? The FDA is going to approve a company to sell it as a DRUG! Since that is not economically smart opr feasible, they plan to do something ILLEGAL! BAN its sale as a vitamin! That is collusion, and akin to price fixing and a monopoly. It violates SO many laws!

I don't mind laws that prohibit people from bull****ting me when my health is on the line.

I don't EITHER! They outlawed cocaine, items that don't contain what they say, items that contain what they DON'T say, and radioactive products. I am ALL FOR THAT! But that OTHER garbage? FORGET IT!

They outlawed ephedra, though it WAS effective and apparently they have NEVER found anything as good.

Steve

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mojojuju

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

YOU are trying to say that they were reasonable in this and had a valid reason when, if followed 100%, the PLANET would be SHUT DOWN!

Nope. I wasn't trying to say that. I just pointed out why the FDA outlawed tryptophan and that I think there's a lack of oversight in the alternative medicine and natural supplementation industry.

You mentioned ephedra. When I sold natural supplements for a health food store, a guy came in asking what could help him lose weight. He also mentioned that he had some heart condition. I don't recall what, but it was pretty severe. The girl that helped him sold him some diet aid that was chock full of ephedra. If you've ever taken ephedra, you know it can amp up your heart rate quite a bit. It's also been linked to cardiac arrest.

It's stuff like that, a girl selling a natural supplement that can have adverse effects on cardiac health to an older dude with a heart problem, that's one example of what I mean by lack of oversight in the health supplement industry.

I believe that people should be able to take their health in their own hands, but we have to be careful and look out for people who might get into trouble by some supplement salesman hack that might make a customer really sick.

A lot of people think that just because something is natural, it's safe. Cocaine is natural, Escherichia coli... heck, everything is natural in some respect. That just doesn't guarantee that it's safe.

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Patrician

13 years ago

I agree on this point and there should be plenty of warnings on the bottle even if the sales person has no way of knowing if a person has a heart condition - (then again maybe she should ask).

I remember way back - remember Adele Davis? She was one of the first to come over on the Mega Vitamin concept.

I have 3 cousins who were physicians and one was a pediatrician. I went to visit them and was going on about the wonderful job I was doing to raise my kid and (overdosing) him on vitamins AND protein. My cousin instead of being impressed showed me his 'black book' to prove I could have caused mental retardation (too much A) and kidney failure (too much protein). Thank God I found out before I wrecked my kid.

Yep the kid had my breakfast cereal concoction that had the whole day's worth of protein.

(it's funny my son tells 'child abuse' stories about me making him eat powdered kelp (which is all good) I don't think he knows about the above story...)

Originally Posted by mojojuju

You mentioned ephedra. When I sold natural supplements for a health food store, a guy came in asking what could help him lose weight. He also mentioned that he had some heart condition. I don't recall what, but it was pretty severe. The girl that helped him sold him some diet aid that was chock full of ephedra. If you've ever taken ephedra, you know it can amp up your heart rate quite a bit. It's also been linked to cardiac arrest.

It's stuff like that, a girl selling a natural supplement that can have adverse effects on cardiac health to an older dude with a heart problem, that's one example of what I mean by lack of oversight in the health supplement industry.
.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

Nope. I wasn't trying to say that. I just pointed out why the FDA outlawed tryptophan and that I think there's a lack of oversight in the alternative medicine and natural supplementation industry.

You mentioned ephedra. When I sold natural supplements for a health food store, a guy came in asking what could help him lose weight. He also mentioned that he had some heart condition. I don't recall what, but it was pretty severe. The girl that helped him sold him some diet aid that was chock full of ephedra. If you've ever taken ephedra, you know it can amp up your heart rate quite a bit. It's also been linked to cardiac arrest.

It's stuff like that, a girl selling a natural supplement that can have adverse effects on cardiac health to an older dude with a heart problem, that's one example of what I mean by lack of oversight in the health supplement industry.

I believe that people should be able to take their health in their own hands, but we have to be careful and look out for people who might get into trouble by some supplement salesman hack that might make a customer really sick.

A lot of people think that just because something is natural, it's safe. Cocaine is natural, Escherichia coli... heck, everything is natural in some respect. That just doesn't guarantee that it's safe.

Okay - I'm going to agree real strong on this one

People who are pushing ANYTHING should know exactly what it does. Perhaps you have problems that licorice is known to help? Did the person who sold it to you warn you that it can make you retain water and isn't good for someone with high blood pressure unless they are only taking it for a few days at a time and putting a week or two between the few days you take it?

How many people know that while nutmeg will kill E-coli, it's easy to overdose on it?

That's one thing I am careful about to the excess is not recommending anything that has any over-dose potential - and even simple stuff does now and again. Vitamin C can cause diarrhea in high enough doses, but if you're trying to stop a case of flu coming on, it's actually best that you get to that level then back it off.

These are the types of things people HAVE to know -- or they might as well depend on Doctors........and in the US that means people who are educated on Pharmaceutically propagated information. They sometimes learn better than what they were taught. For instance, they were all educated that fluoride was good for you. Over the years individual doctors saw discrepancies in that information and did their own studies. Now there are large organizations of Doctors saying "Stop poisoning people." It's not the doctors......it's the pharmaceutically run educational system that is the blame.

And look at how great the pharm industry is at finding new diseases for drugs they are already messing with. Restless Leg Syndrome? That one has to have the top guys ROTFL. How stupid can people get? Do some stretches and take a walk for God's sake.

The problem is that the pharms are making about, if not more than, the oil industry and they actually OWN the FDA. I don't like the organization meant to protect me being funded by Pharm and MONSANTO. Can you spell c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t -o-f- i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t?

What we need is independent monitoring. I can't say ALL pharms are bad. I use aspirin, primatine mist (being banned yet best and SAFEST alternative for emergency use), and benedryl (in very small amounts). But most of what I use is natural and I have thirty years of research in. Turmeric has benefits that you can only find if you really dig deep into the medical research. Never talked about. Why?

We need someone who will be honest about what is actually good for us -- and we aren't getting it. All we have now is a deadly power grab and if we allow it to continue the amount of deaths resulting from pharms, which is now one of the three leading causes of death in the US, are going to continue to rise. We have the wolf in charge of the chickens.

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mojojuju 13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Restless Leg Syndrome? That one has to have the top guys ROTFL.

There's actually a newly discovered remedy for restless leg syndrome. Well, the actual remedy isn't new, just the application of it to eliminate RLS is.

Restless arm = Restful legs
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Patrician

13 years ago

No Kay LOL I am defending garlic at the moment.

The 'other' one seems to be working out without my input.

heehehehe

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John M Kane

13 years ago

OK I need my beauty sleep.
Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei

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Patrician

13 years ago

So one or more areas have had success - granted - that's cool -- sometimes the drugs work - but why not talk about the millions who die from a myriad of other Cancers in spite of their treatments? I am glad they are getting somewhere though and you do hear of more and more people who beat it.

The issue is why shouldn't people be free to make their own decisions about their own bodies? BIAS? Prejudiced? Yes I think so and it is by the establishment.

I would say the 'ill informed' are the ones who will not see other possibilities. And that's okay too but they should not be able to prevent others who can from seeking their own solutions.

It's just plain ignorant.

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Alexa Smith Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

why not talk about the millions who die from a myriad of other Cancerrs in spite of their treatments?

Because giving just one very well-known and glaringly obvious counter-example was enough to expose how deeply flawed was the perspective to which I was replying.

Originally Posted by Patrician

The issue is why shouldn't people be free to make their own decisions about their own bodies?

That's an issue. Not the issue. (And it's an issue about which - as far as I can see - everyone posting in the thread agrees about. I certainly do).

The issue to which I was responding, and the reason for the incontrovertible point I made, was a different one, Patricia.
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Patrician

13 years ago

OK - whatever - I admit I didn't read every word in the longer posts here but the Title/Topic of the thread was about us losing our freedom to choose. That is what I am ranting about. (and glad you are in agreement with that).

You must be responding to a different issue - which I understand now.

Let me get back to you on that. lol.

(just woke up)

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seasoned

13 years ago

I'm with you on THAT Kurt! With Martha Stewart, for example. Her ILLEGAL gain came at the expense of SO many people. She may not be able to pay THEM back for their loss, and they WON'T be paid back, but she can use part of THEIR loss to make her time, that she is spending for THEIR loss, more comfortable? Prisons are SUPPOSED to be harsh! The idea is to discourage her from trying again, so things can be more fair.

And YEAH, I WISH gideon was innocent, but "Gideon v. waineright" was a GOOD move anyway. It expanded the right to a court appointed attorney to people that WEREN'T in danger of losing their lives, etc... Just Like miranda. Which made it to where you had to be reminded of your rights, and police could no longer claim things like you HAD to respond, etc... Funny, they were both guilty. They lucked out once, and had to try again! 8-(

I would say more but, you know....

NONE of this is intended to be political. I'm sure everyone likely agrees with me here.

Steve

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Sunfyre7896

13 years ago

I like how it's becoming like a witch-hunt for any competition to big pharma. There are many things that people take that are NOT pharmaceuticals that work and there's no reason that any of these should be banned. If valid studies find some huge negative side effect, then yes, by all means, take it off the market, but injectable vitamin C? C'mon, seriously. Another way that government steps in to further control what we can and can't do and all in the name of "protecting its citizens." From who, ourselves? This is all ridiculous. If it really is to prevent people from practicing from out of state, then that's fine, but if you live in that state and want to sell herbs that you can get over the counter, at least now before they get banned for some contrived reason, then there shouldn't be an issue. The best governmental policies are the ones that give us personal freedoms and stay out of the personal aspects of our lives. I suppose money makes the world go around and anyone that believes that these so called "protective" policies are really as such and not because of campaign donations and other kick backs is just fooling themselves.

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HeySal

13 years ago

BTW - John - the vote is tomorrow night (Wednesday). You still have time to call in and tell them to knock it off or face an angry public that might boot them to the curb.

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Kay King

13 years ago

Restless Leg Syndrome

That's one where you strike out. RLS has been around for a long time but didn't get attention because it's not dangerous, progressive or painful on it's own. I have problems with RLS - have had it as far back as I can remember. I used to buy quinine over the counter and that solved the problem when I had a flareup. Then quinine got "restricted" - so I found my own "medicine" through a doctor's advice.

Tonic water containing quinine - it does the trick.

RLS is not an imaginary condition and though it's not painful it is frustrating as hell because it interrupts sleep, leads to cramping, etc. It can be controlled for the most part with getting enough potassium and magnesium but that doesn't always work. Tonic with quinine works great.

This is an example of going too far in a direction. RLS is problem for those who have it - but it doesn't require big medical intervention to solve.

For years there was an inexpensive over the counter med for restless leg syndrome. It worked great - until the powers that be restricted quinine. It was called legatrin, I think. Still being sold but no use without the key ingredient of quinine.

kay

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's one where you strike out. RLS has been around for a long time but didn't get attention because it's not dangerous, progressive or painful on it's own. I have problems with RLS - have had it as far back as I can remember. I used to buy quinine over the counter and that solved the problem when I had a flareup. Then quinine got "restricted" - so I found my own "medicine" through a doctor's advice.

Tonic water containing quinine - it does the trick.

RLS is not an imaginary condition and though it's not painful it is frustrating as hell because it interrupts sleep, leads to cramping, etc. It can be controlled for the most part with getting enough potassium and magnesium but that doesn't always work. Tonic with quinine works great.

This is an example of going too far in a direction. RLS is problem for those who have it - but it doesn't require big medical intervention to solve.

For years there was an inexpensive over the counter med for restless leg syndrome. It worked great - until the powers that be restricted quinine. It was called legatrin, I think. Still being sold but no use without the key ingredient of quinine.

kay

I've had RLS and severe craps in my feet and legs.
When I was a kid my mother took Quinine for her leg cramps so that's what I looked for. Tonic water with Quinine works like a charm.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's one where you strike out. RLS has been around for a long time but didn't get attention because it's not dangerous, progressive or painful on it's own. I have problems with RLS - have had it as far back as I can remember. I used to buy quinine over the counter and that solved the problem when I had a flareup. Then quinine got "restricted" - so I found my own "medicine" through a doctor's advice.

Tonic water containing quinine - it does the trick.

RLS is not an imaginary condition and though it's not painful it is frustrating as hell because it interrupts sleep, leads to cramping, etc. It can be controlled for the most part with getting enough potassium and magnesium but that doesn't always work. Tonic with quinine works great.

This is an example of going too far in a direction. RLS is problem for those who have it - but it doesn't require big medical intervention to solve.

For years there was an inexpensive over the counter med for restless leg syndrome. It worked great - until the powers that be restricted quinine. It was called legatrin, I think. Still being sold but no use without the key ingredient of quinine.

kay

Didn't strike out. Why are they giving pharms for it if it is just a problem requiring natural control? I don't doubt people have problems with their legs -- but "syndrome"? Nope, sorry I don't buy that one. I've never met a person yet who needed a drug to stop discomfort in their legs. Just because there is an imbalance in your system doesn't make it a "syndrome". However, imbalances can eventually lead to "syndromes". Most of what is being called a "syndrome" is nothing more than a natural reaction to doing something totally unnatural to the human anatomy -- like standing in one spot for 8 hours a day. That's just destructive any way you look at it.
Kudos to your physician for resisting the commissions to actually show you how to solve the problem.

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MerlynSanchez

13 years ago

I've also suffered from RLS for years. I didn't know about quinine; I'm going to check out the tonic water.

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's one where you strike out. RLS has been around for a long time but didn't get attention because it's not dangerous, progressive or painful on it's own. I have problems with RLS - have had it as far back as I can remember. I used to buy quinine over the counter and that solved the problem when I had a flareup. Then quinine got "restricted" - so I found my own "medicine" through a doctor's advice.

Tonic water containing quinine - it does the trick.

RLS is not an imaginary condition and though it's not painful it is frustrating as hell because it interrupts sleep, leads to cramping, etc. It can be controlled for the most part with getting enough potassium and magnesium but that doesn't always work. Tonic with quinine works great.

This is an example of going too far in a direction. RLS is problem for those who have it - but it doesn't require big medical intervention to solve.

For years there was an inexpensive over the counter med for restless leg syndrome. It worked great - until the powers that be restricted quinine. It was called legatrin, I think. Still being sold but no use without the key ingredient of quinine.

kay

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Rick B

13 years ago

It seems to me that if you call yourself a practicer of homeopathic MEDICINE or a homeopathic DOCTOR then you should expect to be required to be licensed in a state before you can practice there.

There are undoubtedly benefits to these practices but without licensing anyone can claim anything they want. "Hey, don't get chemotherapy for that cancer ... just take this herb".

The potential for harm to people is a concern for society and that is why governments license such things and the state has every right to imprison people who don't pay any attention to the state's requirements in these areas.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Actually, they can pinpoint chemo with a combination of a few natural elemenets - one starts with a c (cant remember the name of it right off the top of my head, not chondroitin, it's a short word) and the other is MSM. If you inject those two things into the tumor the chemo will go straight to the tumor and leave other healthy cells alone.

The treatment is BANNED in the US.

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AEC

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

The treatment is BANNED in the US.

That is why people go out of the country when the doc says he can't help them in this country. Some people get healed cheaply and relatively simply in other countries. Sometimes the trip and the treatment even for a common treatment is less expensive than in the US. Oh well... I better not get started.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by AEC

That is why people go out of the country when the doc says he can't help them in this country. Some people get healed cheaply and relatively simply in other countries. Sometimes the trip and the treatment even for a common treatment is less expensive than in the US. Oh well... I better not get started.

Well, there is a bill going around the PLANET like some sort of PLAGUE that will try to get rid of vitamins and herbs. So don't think it will only happen in the US!

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Kay King 13 years ago

I don't have time in my life to follow the latest food fads - never had anything made with or from **** berry so I'm out of the loop on that stuff.

I'm off to poison my system with a 2 inch thick pork loin chop, au gratin potatoes and some lima beans. I plan to enjoy it thoroughly before it erodes my health:p Cherry cobbler for dessert (got to get those fruits in...)
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- Enfusia 13 years ago
  
  I'm not sure how many are aware of this but; There is more research on nutritional substances that has been performed throughout history than all the pharmaceuticals combined.
  
  My field IS nutrition. My father and I worked with Dr Hills to introduce this country to Spirulina in the very early 80's and it has been my field since then.
  The proof of what I say can be found here NutriHarmony Real Food™ Nutritional Supplements, Protein, Whey, Vitamin Supplements, Fat Loss, Weight Loss, Energy, Nutrition, Natural Body Care
  You may use the nav bar go to customer care and scroll down just a bit, my name is Patrick.
  
  I am also a former Marine who has protected our interests in multiple venues.
  
  I only say this so that you will take my point to heart, which is;
  
  You must protect your rights with all your might or you will wake up one day without them.
  
  I have seen 1st hand what our Government cares about and trust me it isn't you.
  
  We want to believe that our leaders are fair and honest and that pro wrestling is real but sorry folks it's not reality.
  
  They are on the side of big pharma and they do want to take your nutritional's away because it cuts into profits.
  
  Those that would argue that the nutritional products do nothing then please explain 2 things:
  1. Explain how you get health from food, food is a nutritional.
  2. If it does nothing why would you want to outlaw it? Why would you care? I mean it does nothing right?
  
  Please understand I am a Patriot of this great land, I love my country. But if you put your trust in our current leadership you are misplacing your trust.
  
  Patrick
  
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seasoned

13 years ago

It isn't really a material, but a type, but do you mean chelate? It IS sometimes used with MSM.
Steve

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Patrician

13 years ago

Here is an example of the latest GOLDEN CHILD - POMEGRANATE -
A NATUROPATHIC REMEDY FOR PROSTRATE CANCER

Pomegranate juice may slow prostate cancer progression - Harvard Health Publications

Prostate Cancer Research Institute: Pomegranates and Prostate Health: A Research Report

Also touted as a way to reduce bad LDL cholesterol.

So along with cooked tomatoes (tomato sauce) which has long been known to protect cells against prostrate cancer, (Lycopene) -- logic would dictate (to me at least) that even if you don't have prostrate cancer you should be doing tomato sauce and washing it down with pomegrante juice!

... just sayin'

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Patrician

13 years ago

Halleluliah - This gave me chills! So the distrust in 'the man' does not just come from the non-conformist or radical outer reaches - but right straight from the trenches - those who put their own well being in jeopardy for others - so that we may have freedom (of sorts) -

'The truth shall set you free'.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Patricia,

TELL ME ABOUT IT! I never thought I would EVER agree with ones using the term "the man" as you did. Oh well TIAFFE!

Steve

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Patrician

13 years ago

Yo, Steve -

What is TIAFFE?

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Yo, Steve -

What is TIAFFE?

There Is A First time(OK, I slipped) For Everything.
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John M Kane

13 years ago

Oh that song at the start of every BB game is so wonderful eh?
"Land of the Frreeeee"...NOT
SWAT Attacks Home School Mom for Refusing to Force Med Child
"Home of the Brave"?
This mom was.In an extreme way? Maybe, she was pushed to the limit.
Why do these agencies even have this much power?
We let them.
WTFU up America.
Oh wait...it is too late.Patrick knows.
And yes I do believe parents generally know what is best for their children, of course they really are NOT your children,the STATE owns them.

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

Oh that song at the start of every BB game is so wonderful eh?
"Land of the Frreeeee"...NOT
SWAT Attacks Home School Mom for Refusing to Force Med Child
"Home of the Brave"?
This mom was.In an extreme way? Maybe, she was pushed to the limit.
Why do these agencies even have this much power?
We let them.
WTFU up America.
Oh wait...it is too late.Patrick knows.
And yes I do believe parents generally know what is best for their children, of course they really are NOT your children,the STATE owns them.

If you have any type of assistance for your child from the govt. you can expect something like this to happen.
I know someone who had a baby last year and applied to WIC for assistance. She was told right from the start if she didn't give her child any of the meds that her doctor prescribed her baby would be taken from her.
Her doctor prescribed liquid fluoride for the baby saying it would promote healthy teeth (this was before the baby even started teething), and the child was under 6 months old. So knowing the facts about fluoride she just flushed it down the toilet and told the doctor she gave it to her baby.
For those that don't believe fluoride is dangerous for babies (and us), this is from the Vermont Dept. of Health.

The Vermont Department of Health recommends mixing powdered or concentrated baby formula with water that is fluoride-free, or contains very low levels of fluoride, for feeding infants under 12 months of age. Recent studies have discovered the possibility that infants in this age group may be consuming more fluoride than necessary.

So why would a doctor prescribe fluoride to an infant?
By the way (not that it matters)giving liquid fluoride to infants is not approved by the FDA.

On the up side, I heard the bill this thread was about didn't pass.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If you have any type of assistance for your child from the govt. you can expect something like this to happen.
I know someone who had a baby last year and applied to WIC for assistance. She was told right from the start if she didn't give her child any of the meds that her doctor prescribed her baby would be taken from her.
Her doctor prescribed liquid fluoride for the baby saying it would promote healthy teeth (this was before the baby even started teething), and the child was under 6 months old. So knowing the facts about fluoride she just flushed it down the toilet and told the doctor she gave it to her baby.
For those that don't believe fluoride is dangerous for babies (and us), this is from the Vermont Dept. of Health.

So why would a doctor prescribe fluoride to an infant?
By the way (not that it matters)giving liquid fluoride to infants is not approved by the FDA.

On the up side, I heard the bill this thread was about didn't pass.

Well, flouride was discovered because of "colorado brown stain". It was due to INGESTED flouride. SO, if flouride were REALLY good, it would help babies MOST before they started teething. The idea was NOT to help clean, or strengthen/protect the enamel, but harden the whole tooth.

They keep trying to pass that bill ALL THE TIME! I heard about it first in the 80s! It even has some weird name that sounds like latin! Supposedly, MOST governments are trying to pass it.

Steve

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HeySal

13 years ago

I saw the gov turn an extremely intelligent and gifted child into a drooling idiot. The woman had to get off of assistance to save her child.

Thanks Kay - I know what a syndrome is.........I just simply do not believe that some things classified as syndromes are actually syndromes. When you are doing something repeatedly that your body doesn't like, it's going to react. I had a job that required me to stand in one place for long periods and it got to my legs, too. I don't take that to be a medical condition, although a doctor would have told me it was. That is what they get paid to do. It's not any different than a doctor prescribing antibiotics for colds or flu when they know that antibiotics don't work against those illnesses. Just in reverse.

Patrick - this is all CODEX crap. They signed into CODEX even after receiving 50 million letters (plus more "no" votes in the form of phone calls, petitions, emails) that reminded them that handing our rights to a global governance is treason. Their response was so what - just like the bailout. People are just waking up to the fact that we are losing our say on EVERYTHING. And outside of a few million, action isn't being taken to stop them. At least the slip programmed tinfoil hat screamers are starting to quiet down. God knows a group of filthy rich people would NEVER make plans for further gain, eh?

Thom - I didn't think it would pass. C51 was shot down in Canada real hard. I think, though, that if America doesn't can the jerks who would even put a bill like this before our congress need to be booted to the curb for it so fast their heads will spin.

I am keeping my natural remedies. They have taken major amounts of time and study to learn to use correctly and effectively -- but they are working for me, and they are working much better than anything a doctor ever suggested or prescribed. I have done enough study and reaped enough success with them to feel I damned well deserve to make that choice even if the guy down the street f***s his whole life up on them. It's also people's right to be pitifully stupid. I'm not paid to be a babysitter. I'm not paid to be a warden. I'm not paid to take someone's right to live as they damned well want to ---- and I think that is the whole point in this issue. Why do we insist that we need to interfere with people's right to live as they wish just because we believe we know best what is right for them? If you love your doctor and the drugs he is cramming down your throat, that's your damned right to do so, too. Just keep your drugs out of MY drinking water and it's all good.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I saw the gov turn an extremely intelligent and gifted child into a drooling idiot. The woman had to get off of assistance to save her child.

I knew a guy once, and one of my best friends used to be HIS friend. My friend said that he used to seem normal, do ok, etc... Well, he was diagnosed ADHD or something and his father got SSI and lived in a home drinking and all ALL DAY LONG! Meanwhile, he kept his son in a drugged STUPOR!

Thanks Kay - I know what a syndrome is.........I just simply do not believe that some things classified as syndromes are actually syndromes. When you are doing something repeatedly that your body doesn't like, it's going to react. I had a job that required me to stand in one place for long periods and it got to my legs, too. I don't take that to be a medical condition, although a doctor would have told me it was. That is what they get paid to do. It's not any different than a doctor prescribing antibiotics for colds or flu when they know that antibiotics don't work against those illnesses. Just in reverse.

A syndrome is often just a collection of symptoms. You may not know the cause, if there is a cause, or EVEN if the cause is the same. Only the symptoms match.

I am keeping my natural remedies. They have taken major amounts of time and study to learn to use correctly and effectively -- but they are working for me, and they are working much better than anything a doctor ever suggested or prescribed. I have done enough study and reaped enough success with them to feel I damned well deserve to make that choice even if the guy down the street f***s his whole life up on them. It's also people's right to be pitifully stupid. I'm not paid to be a babysitter. I'm not paid to be a warden. I'm not paid to take someone's right to live as they damned well want to ---- and I think that is the whole point in this issue. Why do we insist that we need to interfere with people's right to live as they wish just because we believe we know best what is right for them? If you love your doctor and the drugs he is cramming down your throat, that's your damned right to do so, too. Just keep your drugs out of MY drinking water and it's all good.

Who knows. It is a GIVEN we are INTENTIONALLY being poisoned. That's been OBVIOUS to me for DECADES! Like when I looked at a list of ingredients on mountain dew or dr pepper when I was in highschool. Can ANYONE here tell me why there is vegetable oil in mountain dew? Oil that is treated with BROMINE!?!?!?!? How about ethylene glycol in dr pepper? OK, how about aluminum in many baking powders? lead in baby toys? A LOT of this stuff is technically illegal. SOME, like the lead, has been banned in most things for DECADES! Yet STILL, they have it.

Anyway, who knows what kind of stuff causes people to act as you say. Lead and aluminum certainly can. Enough ethlyene glycol can ALSO! Bromine is TOXIC!

Steve

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HeySal

13 years ago

Steve - you just hit the nail on the head. The toxins we are exposed to daily lead to many problems - and our officials know that, the pharms know that, the FDA knows that. Yet instead of telling us to quit buying and eating crap with the poison in it - they sell us more drugs and allow more and more poisons to be slipped into our lives under the wire. They just legislated something about not having to label foods that have been made with GMO crops. How many will be poisoned to death eating them unknowingly? Oh well - we're vastly over populated. The people who don't figure it out will die off rapidly - and they will leave a vast majority, if not all, of their money to the pharmaceutical/industrial complex.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Steve - you just hit the nail on the head. The toxins we are exposed to daily lead to many problems - and our officials know that, the pharms know that, the FDA knows that. Yet instead of telling us to quit buying and eating crap with the poison in it - they sell us more drugs and allow more and more poisons to be slipped into our lives under the wire. They just legislated something about not having to label foods that have been made with GMO crops. How many will be poisoned to death eating them unknowingly? Oh well - we're vastly over populated. The people who don't figure it out will die off rapidly - and they will leave a vast majority, if not all, of their money to the pharmaceutical/industrial complex.

I am in a state with a lot of agriculture. Where I live used to be a cornfield. I actually got a note from a government agency last week that suggested having the soil checked if I wanted to grow vegetables because there may be excess lead in the soil.

I didn't even know that could happen. The lead is thought to be from past things, like lead in gas, and paint. And HEY, I used to wonder why you couldn't start boiling hot water, and should start with cold. Well, most pipes were soldered, and it is leached into water, ESPECIALLY if hot. A MAJOR constituent of sollder is lead. Of course, the materials in PVC are KNOWN to be toxic! I wonder if THEY are leached? ALSO, back to hot water. hot water heaters want people to keep buying new ones, so they keep their lives down to about 6 years. SOME charge more for twice the protection at 12 years. they don't tell you anbout the sacrifical rods to extend their lives. ALSO, they often want to save money so instead of using the cheap magnesium rods, they use the VERY cheap ALUMINUM ones.

This stuff is PERVASIVE! MAN, HOW do you get away from it?

Steve

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I didn't even know that could happen. The lead is thought to be from past things, like lead in gas, and paint. And HEY, I used to wonder why you couldn't start boiling hot water, and should start with cold. Well, most pipes were soldered, and it is leached into water, ESPECIALLY if hot. A MAJOR constituent of sollder is lead. Of course, the materials in PVC are KNOWN to be toxic! I wonder if THEY are leached? ALSO, back to hot water. hot water heaters want people to keep buying new ones, so they keep their lives down to about 6 years. SOME charge more for twice the protection at 12 years. they don't tell you anbout the sacrifical rods to extend their lives. ALSO, they often want to save money so instead of using the cheap magnesium rods, they use the VERY cheap ALUMINUM ones.

This stuff is PERVASIVE! MAN, HOW do you get away from it?

Steve

Steve,

They haven't used lead in solder or flux for twenty years or better...at least in California.

The Anode rods you mention are for electrolysis, two dissimilar metals, and that can be anywhere in the line connected to the water heater. In bigger and more expensive heaters they will use two, bigger still three...etc...if people would change these (which you do in commercial applications) your water heater would last a long long time.

People all over drink from pvc, in Cali its illegal for potable water under a house...because of the poisonous fumes in the event of a fire.

If you have copper lines, then it actually gives you a daily dose of copper, one of our essential minerals. I don't know what you have, but galvanized was by far the worst.

As far as 6 year warranty vice 12 or whatever ..thaaaat's marketing

I hold a generals license (or did, I let it lapse) still hold a plumbers license and was working on an electricians license when the bottom was pulled out of me by the economy.

Which just for sh*ts and grins I got a 1099 from the banks the other day because I defaulted on loans from them (small)...but they caused the collapse in the first place. Which I would still have a company to pay them...they default and they get bailed out and I end up paying for it again. So pardon me if I don't finish this.. means I had an aneurism.

The banks are doing a lot less for my health than what I am eating or drinking.

Jim

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Roaddog

Steve,

They haven't used lead in solder or flux for twenty years or better...at least in California.

*******BULL******! I grew up in california! I also used solder when I was a little kid over FORTY years ago! 60 percent tin, 40 percent *****LEAD*****! AND, it had a ROSIN core(aka FLUX). How do you clean the connection if you don't have flux? And I am talking about electrical solder, though they all had some lead in them. The melting point can't be very high, or it is pretty WORTHLESS. On wikipedia, theey spoke of a law prohibiting a lot of it in 2006. Regarding electrical solder, such as I was using, they say:

Most lead-free replacements for conventional Sn60/Pb40 and Sn63/Pb37 solder have melting points from 5–20 °C higher,[10] though solders with much lower melting points are available.

10-40f is pretty substantial.

The Anode rods you mention are for electrolysis, two dissimilar metals, and that can be anywhere in the line connected to the water heater. In bigger and more expensive heaters they will use two, bigger still three...etc...if people would change these (which you do in commercial applications) your water heater would last a long long time.

I KNOW all that! Frankly, on houshold ones, I have only seen them go to 2, and the ones for 1 are warranteed to 6 years tops, and 2 were to 12. And the ones with two weren't necessarily bigger.

[quote]People all over drink from pvc, in Cali its illegal for potable water under a house...because of the poisonous fumes in the event of a fire.]/quote]

I KNOW they drink from PVC all over. HECK, in the 70s they came out with polybutylene, IIRC, and several years ago homes started having problems because it was breaking down. Sometimes things take DECADES to appear. As for potable water under a house, that is conceivable, though I NEVER heard about it. I know it is certainly NOT the law in many states in the north, since they have basements and many have water, etc...

But that does NOT make sense! Water NEVER becomes toxic! So it must be due to the pipes, right? Well, California law DOES allow PVC for NONpotable water under a home.

If you have copper lines, then it actually gives you a daily dose of copper, one of our essential minerals. I don't know what you have, but galvanized was by far the worst.

I have copper. Of course it DOES have solder. And I don't know if you ever saw them join copper together, but they brush this stuff in the inside of the joint, and around it, and that stuff is called flux!

As far as 6 year warranty vice 12 or whatever ..thaaaat's marketing

NOPE, I've read of enough failures. I wanted to get those rods replaced, ad there started to be a bad scent to the water, caused by bacteria being present in the tank, and the general environment due to the breakdown of that rod. Anyway, I did a LOT of research, and saw a LOT of people with failures.

I hold a generals license (or did, I let it lapse) still hold a plumbers license and was working on an electricians license when the bottom was pulled out of me by the economy.

Well, for electricians, they don't have to worry so much about the melting point of solder. And maybe you were complying with newer laws. 40 years ago, and even 30 years ago, I KNOW the average solder in california had lead!

RADIOSHACKS recommended solder IS different than what I used! They DID change it!
Silver-Bearing Solder (1 Oz.) - RadioShack.com

It STILL has LEAD though! Silver-Bearing (62%-tin, 36%-lead, 2%-silver) Instead of being 60/40, it is 62/36/2(silver) BTW it STILL has rosin core flux!

which just for sh*ts and grins I got a 1099 from the banks the other day because I defaulted on loans from them (small)...but they caused the collapse in the first place. Which I would still have a company to pay them...they default and they get bailed out and I end up paying for it again. So pardon me if I don't finish this.. means I had an aneurism.

The banks are doing a lot less for my health than what I am eating or drinking.

Jim

BTW I got an Aneurysm also! MINE was so bad I had to have open heart surgery. I'm told it took 13 hours, and 5 doctors apparently partially like a tag team.

BTW there IS a message:

Disclaimer: California residents: WARNING: This product contains, or when used for soldering and similar applications produces, chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects (or other reproductive harm).

That is a REQUIRED, and VERY strict notice for prop 65(iirc). It is SO strict that it is nearly worthless! I recently worked at cisco, in california. Almost every place had this notice. The holiday Inn I stayed at had it. The CISCO building I worked at had it. You know CISCO, the company that made the flip phone, bought linksys, makes those routers, etc... It is possible that the notice is as much due to the flux, tin, and silver as it is the lead, but the fact is that it clearly does NOT mean this can't be used in california.

Steve

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Boy Steve BULL?

That is so much misinformation I don't even know where to start,

Your going on about electrical solder when we were talking about water supply.

Electrical solder flux and the flux you use to solder copper are two different things and, yes they did go to a water based flux twenty years ago in plumbing, Practically leadless solder too.

They just passed another law two years or so ago about the content in faucets and fixtures, concerning any amount of lead.

And yes I have not only seen copper soldered together but have done it, countless and I mean countless times.

You were talking about soldered pipes for water, you only solder copper...I don't know what electrical solder or flux has in it nor do I care, because that is not what we were talking about.

No, regular pvc is not legal for water under a house in every municipality in California that I have worked in.

Anode rods have nothing to do with bacteria in the water, thats not what they are for.

Cpvc just got approved a few years ago at most 5, but is a different deal to pvc, it got approved because it is fireproof. Cpvc because it is clear.

The laws change so fast out here I can't even keep up with them and I have been in construction for over 30 years...so congrats on keeping up.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Roaddog

Boy Steve BULL?

That is so much misinformation I don't even know where to start,

Your going on about electrical solder when we were talking about water supply.

Electrical solder flux and the flux you use to solder copper are two different things and, yes they did go to a water based flux twenty years ago in plumbing, Practically leadless solder too.

Yes, but you said solder, so I locked on what I KNEW. I knew that pipe based solder at least USED to have lead, when I was younger. And copper is still a rather soft metal. And you just said practically leadless. Still, it is a flux. Basically something to help deoxidize the metal, and provide a good joint. Sorry if I misread it, but I didn't think lead was EVER used in flux and thus didn't think you meant that. Wheen I mentioned flux earlier, I meant that there may be things in IT that could leach out that aren't that great.

When you spoke of working towards an electrician's license, I mentioned how even THAT kind of solder can have a higher melting point. Solder THERE is used for more mechanical joins, tinning, connecting to terminals, etc... It can get VERY hot without creating a problem. With electronics, working with transistors, ICs, etc... you don't want those to get very hot.

They just passed another law two years or so ago about the content in faucets and fixtures, concerning any amount of lead.

And yes I have not only seen copper soldered together but have done it, countless and I mean countless times.

yeah, but that was 2 years ago. Even the 2006 laws were after my house was built.

You were talking about soldered pipes for water, you only solder copper...I don't know what electrical solder or flux has in it nor do I care, because that is not what we were talking about.

No, regular pvc is not legal for water under a house in every municipality in California that I have worked in.

You said potable water before, and I can't speak to that, but drains definitely go under the home, and many of them are pvc. In northern states, I have seen homes with potable water under the first floor in PVC.

Anode rods have nothing to do with bacteria in the water, thats not what they are for.

I KNOW, but the chemical reaction that is present when they aren't there creates an environment beneficial to some bacteria. Several sites said so, and the problem disappeared when the new rod was put in. They recommend flushing the tank, and I didn't even do THAT, and the problem STILL went away.

Yeah, I know that it is to basically cause that rod to disintegrate instead of the tank because of dissimilar metals, and the electrolytic condition of the water.

Cpvc just got approved a few years ago at most 5, but is a different deal to pvc, it got approved because it is fireproof. Cpvc because it is clear.

The laws change so fast out here I can't even keep up with them and I have been in construction for over 30 years...so congrats on keeping up.

I admitted that I hadn't worked with it. And yeah, the laws do change fast. Still, my house was built about ten years ago.

Steve

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Yes, but you said solder, so I locked on what I KNEW. I knew that pipe based solder at least USED to have lead, when I was younger. And copper is still a rather soft metal. And you just said practically leadless. Still, it is a flux. Basically something to help deoxidize the metal, and provide a good joint. Sorry if I misread it, but I didn't think lead was EVER used in flux and thus didn't think you meant that. Wheen I mentioned flux earlier, I meant that there may be things in IT that could leach out that aren't that great.

When you spoke of working towards an electrician's license, I mentioned how even THAT kind of solder can have a higher melting point. Solder THERE is used for more mechanical joins, tinning, connecting to terminals, etc... It can get VERY hot without creating a problem. With electronics, working with transistors, ICs, etc... you don't want those to get very hot.

yeah, but that was 2 years ago. Even the 2006 laws were after my house was built.

You said potable water before, and I can't speak to that, but drains definitely go under the home, and many of them are pvc. In northern states, I have seen homes with potable water under the first floor in PVC.

I KNOW, but the chemical reaction that is present when they aren't there creates an environment beneficial to some bacteria. Several sites said so, and the problem disappeared when the new rod was put in. They recommend flushing the tank, and I didn't even do THAT, and the problem STILL went away.

Yeah, I know that it is to basically cause that rod to disintegrate instead of the tank because of dissimilar metals, and the electrolytic condition of the water.

I admitted that I hadn't worked with it. And yeah, the laws do change fast. Still, my house was built about ten years ago.

Steve

Steve,

Yes in some states they do use pvc for drains and water supply....for instance Montana uses pvc and cast iron. But not in Cali., if I didn't have a kid in school, I'd move to Montana in a heartbeat. Spent a year there once.
Talk about clean water.

I don't ever remember seeing drains in Cali using pvc, we use cast iron or abs and abs has codes about going above a certain floor vertically because of noise, usually applies to apt. buildings.

My original point was that there are things being done to improve contamination for potable water...it just takes forever because of..you guessed it, money. Flux still smells like crap when you use it, even though it's water based now. I'm sure there are still not so nice things in it...but a few times running the line usually flushes most of it.

Did you know that in L.A. now a gas powered water heater has to pass AQMD standards...yes smogged, and they all went to sealed burners in Cali a few years ago.

I was ready to sell that business anyway, I was tired of trying to keep up with code changes and people bitching about the resultant price hikes.
It was usually the customers that didn't care what anything was made of or contained, they just wanted it now. Truth is in Cali they have a contractors board that sits around and dreams up new codes, I'm sure there's money behind it all.

The recession always hits construction first, I didn't realize until to late how bad this one was. No business to sell by the end. That was a couple of years before most really felt it.

So I guess I'll go on building sites and hope for the best, while I drink my bottled water, that's probably run thru a filter three blocks from here.

lol

Jim

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Roaddog

Steve,

Yes in some states they do use pvc for drains and water supply....for instance Montana uses pvc and cast iron. But not in Cali., if I didn't have a kid in school, I'd move to Montana in a heartbeat. Spent a year there once.
Talk about clean water.

I don't ever remember seeing drains in Cali using pvc, we use cast iron or abs and abs has codes about going above a certain floor vertically because of noise, usually applies to apt. buildings.

Well most places I saw were admittedly old, and I haven't really even looked at any such thing in california in 10 years.

My original point was that there are things being done to improve contamination for potable water...it just takes forever because of..you guessed it, money.

Well, most of what I hate happens when they provide the water. It would be SO nice if they didn't put the garbage in, and maybe filtered the water.

Flux still smells like crap when you use it, even though it's water based now. I'm sure there are still not so nice things in it...but a few times running the line usually flushes most of it.

You MAY be right there, and they say the same about other things to a degree, but still... I was just talking about how hard it was to stay away from such things. Annd I got mail from a government agency. I forget if it was the state or city. The mail said to test my soil if I wanted to grow anything because plants like tomatoes may end up producing fruit that contains lead! I thought such things wouldn't make it to the fruit.

Did you know that in L.A. now a gas powered water heater has to pass AQMD standards...yes smogged, and they all went to sealed burners in Cali a few years ago.

UNREAL! Doesn't natural gas burn rather clean? And all the worry about Co2 and Co is kind of crazy. Co will tend to become Co2 over time, and Co2 is good for plants.

I was ready to sell that business anyway, I was tired of trying to keep up with code changes and people bitching about the resultant price hikes.

I don't blame you. And now they have all these efficiency ratings, and try to make them at least APPEAR better, and there are rebates, tax breaks, etc... so I Imagine they figured a way to increase paperwork. And customers may by based on that, and want you to give them details.

I saw a show, I believe it was john stossel where he got an electric car for FREE! All the rebates, discounts, etc... paid for the car. It wasn't a prius, it was little more than a golf cart, but it was FREE!

It was usually the customers that didn't care what anything was made of or contained, they just wanted it now.

Yeah, NOW you have lots of things prompting changes. I bet sales went up in air conditioners when Freon was made illegal.

Truth is in Cali they have a contractors board that sits around and dreams up new codes, I'm sure there's money behind it all.

There was actually an episode of King of the Hill where hank was forced to change his toilet to a low flow model, and he found it used MORE water, because he had to flush it more. They found a board member owned the company. They attended a meeting and used the rules to keep everyone there until all had to use the toilet THERE, and decided to vote AGAINST the ordinance!

The recession always hits construction first, I didn't realize until to late how bad this one was. No business to sell by the end. That was a couple of years before most really felt it.

Sorry to hear that.

So I guess I'll go on building sites and hope for the best, while I drink my bottled water, that's probably run thru a filter three blocks from here.

yeah, you STILL take chances. 8-(

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ThomM

13 years ago

Jim, I can't remember how long it's been since we started using lead free solder for water pipes here in NY, but I don't remember ever using anything else. Of course I'm only an amateur plumber, but I've been doing it for over 20 years and helped my father as a kid with the pipes, etc., when he worked for an ice house. He had 47 years as Chief Refrigeration Engineer for City Ice and Fuel (in Albany and Troy, NY).
I've always used copper pipes for all water coming into and going through a building and PVC for waste water.
I still find old iron pipes in my house every now and then, though most are now in the hot water heating system and not the potable water pipes.

And HEY, I used to wonder why you couldn't start boiling hot water, and should start with cold. Well, most pipes were soldered, and it is leached into water, ESPECIALLY if hot. A MAJOR constituent of sollder is lead. Of course, the materials in PVC are KNOWN to be toxic! I wonder if THEY are leached? ALSO, back to hot water. hot water heaters want people to keep buying new ones, so they keep their lives down to about 6 years.

You can boil hot water, it just takes longer. The molecules are closer together in cold water so it heats up faster.

Steve, water heaters don't heat hot water. They heat cold water and keep it hot. The water heater I have in my basement has been working for 24 years now and it isn't anything special, just a regular 40 gallon electric water heater. On the other hand when I worked as a maintenance super for a couple of apartment complexes we only got about 4 years out of the water tanks.

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Jim, I can't remember how long it's been since we started using lead free solder for water pipes here in NY, but I don't remember ever using anything else. Of course I'm only an amateur plumber, but I've been doing it for over 20 years and helped my father as a kid with the pipes, etc., when he worked for an ice house. He had 47 years as Chief Refrigeration Engineer for City Ice and Fuel (in Albany and Troy, NY).
I've always used copper pipes for all water coming into and going through a building and PVC for waste water.
I still find old iron pipes in my house every now and then, though most are now in the hot water heating system and not the potable water pipes.

Yep varies from state to state. I was kind of surprised when I went to Montana and they flat out don't use abs, which is common in Cali.
There must be a good reason, never really asked, maybe the cold. THAT time in Montana I didn't stay long enough to ask. It takes longer to put pvc together than abs, because you generally primer pvc... abs goes together with it's own kind of abs glue.

Even from LA to San Dog which is roughly 100 miles.. I have seen differences. In ways of building and materials used. As far as some of the water supply piping I've seen polybutylene ( there was a big class action lawsuit on that one, one of the major oil comp. as I recall), PEX (cross-linked polyethylene), galvanized steel, copper, cpvc, to name some...and I'm sure with all their related probs.
But by far, the one you could actually see the contamination (in older pipes) was galvanized steel.

Most definitely differences from out here and back east, I lived back east but I was very young and I remember (and miss lol) basements.
Out here, slab foundations are very common. Course I remember radiators and coal in Philly too, I'm sure some of that may have changed by now. Out here almost all natural gas lines in the city and propane in some of the more rural areas.

You could stay in a trade for 100 years as far as I'm concerned and never see all the variations, in framing plumbing gas whatever...because it varies so much according to that geographical locations needs and resources.

That's why I used to kind of laugh at some of these kids with 3/4 years in a trade thinking they had seen it all.

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ThomM

13 years ago

You could stay in a trade for 100 years as far as I'm concerned and never see all the variations, in framing plumbing gas whatever...because it varies so much according to that geographical locations needs and resources.

That's why I used to kind of laugh at some of these kids with 3/4 years in a trade thinking they had seen it all.

Tell me about it

When I was framing you used (shudder) hammers. Metal studs where just starting to be (rarely) used. The first job I got doing framing was because I had my fathers old Skil Saw. The thing was all metal and weighted a ton. I still have it and it still works. Though I do use my 18v Ryobi now most of the time.

When I was a maintenance super I had a kid who worked for me that had 1 year in maintenance, he thought he knew it all. When I did his evaluation I said his performance and knowledge was where it should be for 1 year in the field. I thought it was a complement, he thought it was an insult.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by cosmokid

Some questions for people here - please tell me if any of this sounds familiar to you.

I have a friend who was in Ireland a few months back and he was shocked to find that he couldn't buy aspirin for his headache without getting a PRESCRIPTION for it. Have they outlawed everything there in favor of forcing people to use traditional pharam/doctors? Anybody know?

Also, in recent years I believe Germany pretty much decimated the availablity and legality of most vitamins and herbal supplements. Is anything available there anymore?

This stuff is definitely creeping up on us here in the US, but I guess it's very bad in a lot of other parts of the world - especially in Europe.

I'd appreciate any firsthand reports from other Warriors!

Look up CODEX Alemeritus - and yes I probably spelled it wrong.
Countries around the world signed their health laws over to the WHO and WTO. That means your health choices are being dictated now and you are going to see thing disappear gradually until the only way you can get ANYTHING is through a doctor's prescription. Natural items are being outlawed left and right.

Recently Primatine Mist was banned - effective 11/12. 40 million people in the States rely on this for asthma control that doesn't deliver dangerous side effects seen in perscribed treatments. Now - they made a mistake and banned it the only way they could find excuse....because it contains aerosol. Primetine manufacturers are now designing a non-aerosol pump for the product.

Injectable Vitamin C - used to save people in severe cases of flu....is now illegal. Those that don't get vitamin C down in mass quantity that control flu will end up in hospitals that will NOT be allowed to use this vitamin to save lives.

Injectable Vitamin B -- gone. Illegal.

You may also see a decline of dosage in shelf vitamins. Vitamin C is projected under CODEX to be cut to doses so low that it will be of no benefit.

People that thought they could pop pills forever for survival are going to have to do major amounts of study to know how to get what they need in their systems to keep them alive. I've always assumed that anyone with an affliction that isn't studying pubmed quality reports in an effort to find how they can help themselves is just too out of touch with their own survival instincts to relate to anyhow.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Look up CODEX Alemeritus - and yes I probably spelled it wrong.

MAYBE, but THAT is the bill I alluded to that is going all over the world and they are trying to pass it!

Originally Posted by HeySal

Countries around the world signed their health laws over to the WHO and WTO. That means your health choices are being dictated now and you are going to see thing disappear gradually until the only way you can get ANYTHING is through a doctor's prescription. Natural items are being outlawed left and right.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Recently Primatine Mist was banned - effective 11/12. 40 million people in the States rely on this for asthma control that doesn't deliver dangerous side effects seen in perscribed treatments. Now - they made a mistake and banned it the only way they could find excuse....because it contains aerosol. Primetine manufacturers are now designing a non-aerosol pump for the product.

At least THAT isn't too bad. But aerosol could be ANYTHING! Air, nitrogen, etc... are HARMLESS!

Originally Posted by HeySal

Injectable Vitamin C - used to save people in severe cases of flu....is now illegal. Those that don't get vitamin C down in mass quantity that control flu will end up in hospitals that will NOT be allowed to use this vitamin to save lives.

DIDN'T you hear? Vitamins can't cure, treat, or diagnose, ANY disease! FDA LAW! I say that to be funny and mocking of them, even though vitamins do all three!

Originally Posted by HeySal

Injectable Vitamin B -- gone. Illegal.

I just hope one of the "law makers" gets a kidney ailment and is simply told that a 100% painless and effective cure can't be used to cure them because of the bill they signed, and that in a couple years they will need DIALYSIS! I wonder how they would react!

Originally Posted by HeySal

You may also see a decline of dosage in shelf vitamins. Vitamin C is projected under CODEX to be cut to doses so low that it will be of no benefit.

They started that LONG ago. YEAH, I know it will get WORSE, but STILL!

Originally Posted by HeySal

People that thought they could pop pills forever for survival are going to have to do major amounts of study to know how to get what they need in their systems to keep them alive. I've always assumed that anyone with an affliction that isn't studying pubmed quality reports in an effort to find how they can help themselves is just too out of touch with their own survival instincts to relate to anyhow.

Yeah, and it will be interesting to see how all the changes that they have demanded in the medical and medical education industries, that have ALREADY passed, will be implemented.

Steve

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John Henderson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by cosmokid

I have a friend who was in Ireland a few months back and he was shocked to find that he couldn't buy aspirin for his headache without getting a PRESCRIPTION for it. Have they outlawed everything there in favor of forcing people to use traditional pharam/doctors? Anybody know?

Aspirin is available off-the-shelf from supermarkets in the UK and Ireland under the brand name of 'Anadin'.

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Aspirin is available off-the-shelf from supermarkets in the UK and Ireland under the brand name of 'Anadin'.

I believe bayer is a GERMAN company and, in fact, is named after baveria, german name bayern. Germanic languages call aspirin aspirin. The UK and ireland now speak primarily English!

So WHY is it called anadin? One could EVEN claim trademark infringement, because it sounds like anacin.

Steve
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Jim, I can't remember how long it's been since we started using lead free solder for water pipes here in NY, but I don't remember ever using anything else. Of course I'm only an amateur plumber, but I've been doing it for over 20 years and helped my father as a kid with the pipes, etc., when he worked for an ice house. He had 47 years as Chief Refrigeration Engineer for City Ice and Fuel (in Albany and Troy, NY).
I've always used copper pipes for all water coming into and going through a building and PVC for waste water.
I still find old iron pipes in my house every now and then, though most are now in the hot water heating system and not the potable water pipes.

Well, I know it used to be. Oh well, I guess I should ask plumbers here when they started using leadfree solder. Maybe my home doesn't have it. That WOULD make me feel a bit better.

You can boil hot water, it just takes longer. The molecules are closer together in cold water so it heats up faster.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have said CAN'T, but MUST NOT! I always worked on the premise that a watched pot doesn't boil. So I never bothered to time it. Besides, the pan, stove, and stove setting can change all that. They generally talk about boiling cold water.

Steve, water heaters don't heat hot water. They heat cold water and keep it hot. The water heater I have in my basement has been working for 24 years now and it isn't anything special, just a regular 40 gallon electric water heater. On the other hand when I worked as a maintenance super for a couple of apartment complexes we only got about 4 years out of the water tanks.

Well, they DO keep hot water hot ALSO. YEAH, I know, there is like a thermostat so water at a certain point WON'T be heated, but it can't stay that hot forever! Still, I never said they didn't heat cold water. Only one pipeline comes into the house. It is split and the straight connection has cold water, sometimes VERY cold! They other goes to the hot water heater. When my gas was turned off, THAT water was cold ALSO!

I was actually SHOCKED when I heard about a HUGE system under at least part of a city, I beleive it is in new york, that provides STEAM! UNREAL! But yeah, if they wanted to heat water centrally it would likely be problematic, though I would have said that about steam. But MOST cities AREN'T like that.

BTW my water heater is maybe 12 years, yeah, when I said 10 it was a bit off. I have lived here for about 10 years, and the home is about 2 years older. So far, no evidence that things are bad, though several years ago, around 2005, my water started stinking, I found that that was due to that rod, and the rod that came out was like a wire coat hanger. The NEW one was maybe 3/4" thick. The problem went away.

For the apartments, they obviously had more water exchanged. They also probably had a water conditioner that CAN, ironically, make things WORSE. I WOULD have imagined the rods might last 4+ years, though apparently those salt based water conditioners can be REAL bad. Then again, I have heard of people removing the rods completely, etc.... BTW the old owners here had a soft water conditioner. Like I said, the water heater seems OK.

Steve

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, I know it used to be. Oh well, I guess I should ask plumbers here when they started using leadfree solder. Maybe my home doesn't have it. That WOULD make me feel a bit better.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have said CAN'T, but MUST NOT! I always worked on the premise that a watched pot doesn't boil. So I never bothered to time it. Besides, the pan, stove, and stove setting can change all that. They generally talk about boiling cold water.

Well, they DO keep hot water hot ALSO. YEAH, I know, there is like a thermostat so water at a certain point WON'T be heated, but it can't stay that hot forever! Still, I never said they didn't heat cold water. Only one pipeline comes into the house. It is split and the straight connection has cold water, sometimes VERY cold! They other goes to the hot water heater. When my gas was turned off, THAT water was cold ALSO!

I was actually SHOCKED when I heard about a HUGE system under at least part of a city, I beleive it is in new york, that provides STEAM! UNREAL! But yeah, if they wanted to heat water centrally it would likely be problematic, though I would have said that about steam. But MOST cities AREN'T like that.

BTW my water heater is maybe 12 years, yeah, when I said 10 it was a bit off. I have lived here for about 10 years, and the home is about 2 years older. So far, no evidence that things are bad, though several years ago, around 2005, my water started stinking, I found that that was due to that rod, and the rod that came out was like a wire coat hanger. The NEW one was maybe 3/4" thick. The problem went away.

For the apartments, they obviously had more water exchanged. They also probably had a water conditioner that CAN, ironically, make things WORSE. I WOULD have imagined the rods might last 4+ years, though apparently those salt based water conditioners can be REAL bad. Then again, I have heard of people removing the rods completely, etc.... BTW the old owners here had a soft water conditioner. Like I said, the water heater seems OK.

Steve

I thought then and still do that the problem with the apt. water heaters was in buying cheap ones, but I could be wrong. There weren't any water conditioners at either complex, we didn't allow them except for the ones that go on the faucet. The one complex actually had a well system for the water. We had three pump houses, one primary, one secondary, and one for emergency use only (think sulfur water on the third). I had to test the water at the main two pump houses daily and record the results which where turned into the health dept. monthly.

My little rant about them not being hot water heaters came from George Carlin originally, but it is true

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I thought then and still do that the problem with the apt. water heaters was in buying cheap ones, but I could be wrong. There weren't any water conditioners at either complex, we didn't allow them except for the ones that go on the faucet. The one complex actually had a well system for the water. We had three pump houses, one primary, one secondary, and one for emergency use only (think sulfur water on the third). I had to test the water at the main two pump houses daily and record the results which where turned into the health dept. monthly.

My little rant about them not being hot water heaters came from George Carlin originally, but it is true

The biggest problem I ever saw for Apt's and bigger complexes was undersizing. There are formula's to use for sizing, a lot of people don't bother.

And yes tanks do not last as long in high use applications. Out here most places are going to tankless boilers...Raypack and the like...very high BTU, some places a few million btu. Like I said, depends on.

The last, I think, 4 new houses I built had small versions of tankless water heaters.

The only drawback is enlarging the gas supply (btu's) and sometimes venting for size and material (they now want stainless out here), as far as retro fitting goes.

They have only been doing this in Europe and Japan for like 50 years..lol
The one I liked installing was from Japan...met with their reps many times.

It actually saves gas in the long run, because the thermostat doesn't keep warming up a tank full of water...but it still costs a little more here in the US.

You don't think the water heater manufacturers are going to give up selling you a new tank every 6/10 years that easily do you?

Although a few have been either buying a license to stamp their own brand on them. or actually coming out with their own.

It is the future.

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John M Kane

13 years ago

I strongly believe it is impossible to be truly healthy if you purchase and eat any foods from stores.
It used to be only the processed and packaged foods had added junk that was harmful. Now with not being able to know if a veggy is GMOed into Frankenfood, how the F can you be sure.
What ARE the long term affects of eating that crap-o-la? I bet the developers know.

I doubt they want to outright kill us off, for if that happened how could they get their long-term profits.
Keeping us sick is what they prefer.Same as in war, injuring the opposition would cause others to stop fighting to help to try and save their commrades, while killing one, they just feel sad and keep fighting.

Actually sick and sedated which is what flouride does.

Look up what many prozacs and such are based upon,flourides.
ONLY growing your own can you be "partially" certain.
Even then, GMO pollen can contaminate your plants and you gained nothing.
Just don't let Monsanto find out you have crops with their patented pollen in it, for you will be sued for theft of their product.

And if you are indeed drinking that her Doctor Pfeffer juice or other crap soft drinks, you should be slapped for being stupid.Frankly I probably should stand in the slap me silly line to too

as I enjoy wine and beer and god knows what is in that.

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HeySal 13 years ago

Originally Posted by John M Kane

Just don't let Monsanto find out you have crops with their patented pollen in it, for you will be sued for theft of their product.
.

Not anymore, John. Their stuff has been exposed as migrating - thank you super weeds, you were good for something. MONSANTO still isn't getting sued by organic farmers when their crops become polluted with MONSANTO **** because they are big enough to buy off people in the legal systems, but they aren't getting away with suing others when their crap invades natural crops.
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seasoned

13 years ago

BTW regarding water heaters. I spoke to a neighbor today. He helped me replace my sacrificial rod, but neglected to replace his. He thought he would smell that smell to know when he should do it. Since I was away for a month at a time, it was STRONG in my place. HE was there everyday, so he may not have noticed. BOTH of our homes were built around 1999, and BOTH by the same builder. MY water heater is fine, HIS rusted through.

Steve

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John M Kane

13 years ago

Probably a good time to get a good Euell Gibbons book and learn how to tell a pine tree from poison ivy as eating natural plants may be your last shot at staying, being or getting healthy.
Just do it in secret as that will be verbotten too with stiff penalties.

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mrozlat

13 years ago

maybe a little off-topic... but not really... i am currently running a giveaway for $300 worth of herbal supplements of your choice... if you are keen, here is the link to enter: Win $300 Worth Of Herbal Supplements Of Your Choice (Offer Ends 20th November 2011)! | Herbal Supplements

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dagaul101

13 years ago

It's unfortunate that it has come to this, but the government would like to regulate things especially if they involve health products

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sloanjim

13 years ago

Sadly it's all about protecting big bizz and money.

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Dr. O

13 years ago

anecdotal vs evidence based?

The interwebz are replete with conspiracy and chicanery. A grounded, holistic view of complementary medicine should really span the full range of the medical arts and sciences - western, traditional chinese/herbal, ayurvedic and others. Ultimately, naturopathic solutions work best at preventive medicine, while the western approach works best in the acute setting.

"Natural" does not mean safe. Consumers do need to pay attention, but there is a large grey zone in the unregulated natural remedies/supplement industry re: many issues. The industry pretty much does a decent job at regulating itself - but the FTC and FDA frequently are policing the "market".

line

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Dr. O

anecdotal vs evidence based?

- but the FTC and FDA frequently are policing the "market".

line

Yeah - unfortunately they aren't policing pharms that are maiming and killing - like the anti-depressant drugs they are trying to ram down every throat they can get them down -- or fluoride in the water supply -- or some very poisonous food additives - or pesticides that are pure death and destruction.......or anything poisonous thrown at us by corporations that fund them. Ever heard of the fox guarding the chickens?

FDA is just another corporate scam. The workers aren't - but the heads are just money movers like the rest of top execs. Show us the money and the hell with the people and environment.

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yeah - unfortunately they aren't policing pharms that are maiming and killing - like the anti-depressant drugs they are trying to ram down every throat they can get them down -- or fluoride in the water supply -- or some very poisonous food additives - or pesticides that are pure death and destruction.......or anything poisonous thrown at us by corporations that fund them. Ever heard of the fox guarding the chickens?

FDA is just another corporate scam. The workers aren't - but the heads are just money movers like the rest of top execs. Show us the money and the hell with the people and environment.

Yes, big money runs the world - that's how it ALWAYS been.

That said, as an MD with a natural focus i have to ask

hows the tin hat fitting?

come on now...

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Dr. O

Yes, big money runs the world - that's how it ALWAYS been.

That said, as an MD with a natural focus i have to ask

hows the tin hat fitting?

come on now...

So let me ask, do you think the FDA is protecting us?

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So let me ask, do you think the FDA is protecting us?

While the regulatory landscape is complex, aspects of our health care system are busted and big pharma is looking to get paid - the "market forces" are wide and varied.

I'm not so naive to think that any regulatory body exists simply to "protect us" (who is us really?)

Is the FDA protecting all the affiliates and IM types pushing the "supplement of the month (special offer)? Are they protecting people with bad diseases who are so desperate they will try ANYTHING, or are they trying to establish and maintain a standard of adherence?

It really depends on how much you know and what you believe.

That said, I think there are plenty of natural products that do great help and a bunch that are bad and potentially harmful. Yet all are perfectly legal. The pharma industry basically engineers natural products to be more potent/selective/specific - should they clean up and get paid for that?

I dunno...why are you guys doing your IM and more anyhow again?

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Dr. O

While the regulatory landscape is complex, aspects of our health care system are busted and big pharma is looking to get paid - the "market forces" are wide and varied.

I'm not so naive to think that any regulatory body exists simply to "protect us" (who is us really?)

Is the FDA protecting all the affiliates and IM types pushing the "supplement of the month (special offer)? Are they protecting people with bad diseases who are so desperate they will try ANYTHING, or are they trying to establish and maintain a standard of adherence?

It really depends on how much you know and what you believe.

That said, I think there are plenty of natural products that do great help and a bunch that are bad and potentially harmful. Yet all are perfectly legal. The pharma industry basically engineers natural products to be more potent/selective/specific - should they clean up and get paid for that?

I dunno...why are you guys doing your IM and more anyhow again?

Just so you know. I have no interest in the IM aspect of any health niche.
The FDA shouldn't be protecting anyone but the citizens of the US. In that regard they have failed miserably. You mention a bunch of natural products being bad and potentially harmful, while close to all pharmaceuticals have dangerous side effects. Remember people die every year from taking aspirin. The FDA not only allows GMO foods but have decided they don't have to be labeled as such so we can't decide on our own weather we want to eat them or not. At the same time they outlaw things like raw almonds and raw milk, again taking that choice away from us. Being someone who grew up on raw milk, that tends to bother me that they think they can control my private life and choices.
Most doctors I've met only know what they learned in their college courses that the pharmaceutical companies wrote for them.
I cured my Rheumatoid Arthritis with a common item from the kitchen. I have yet to meet a doctor who knew what it is. All of the doctors who treated me for the arthritis in the past told me it was for life and gave me pills for the pain.
Almost none of them knew anything about nutrition.
So yeah our health care system is broke not just aspects of it, all of it.
And yep I blame it on the FDA and pharma.

Your last line lost me, I have no idea what you are saying or asking.

I dunno...why are you guys doing your IM and more anyhow again?

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Patrician 13 years ago

Gee Doc, did you learn that in medical school?

Use the Tin Hat card when in doubt?

Or how about it's OK because it has ALWAYS been.

what ignorant reasoning in both remarks.

There are more and more doctors that are becoming aware of basic nutrition and PREVENTION. Some MDs these days are also educating themselves in Naturopathic 'medicine' - NATURAL - as we are designed. NATURAL - as in how people survived for decades without poisonous substances.

NATURAL as in treat the cause, don't just mask the symptom.

There are tens of thousands of people WHO DIE FROM LEGAL PRESCRIPTIONS every year - FOR DECADES - not just from overdose and misuse but because they are FDA approved YET AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE DANGEROUS - while Big Biz has them look the other way --- AND THERE ARE other RISKS to people who may have other conditions created by their use of the LEGAL DRUGS -

Now all those drugs SHOULD BE ILLEGAL and just because they have ALWAYS BEEN on the market does not negate either their danger or the injustice of preventing people from taking their own health into their own discretion.

Originally Posted by Dr. O

Yes, big money runs the world - that's how it ALWAYS been.

That said, as an MD with a natural focus i have to ask

hows the tin hat fitting?

come on now...
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yeah - unfortunately they aren't policing pharms that are maiming and killing - like the anti-depressant drugs they are trying to ram down every throat they can get them down -- or fluoride in the water supply -- or some very poisonous food additives - or pesticides that are pure death and destruction.......or anything poisonous thrown at us by corporations that fund them. Ever heard of the fox guarding the chickens?

FDA is just another corporate scam. The workers aren't - but the heads are just money movers like the rest of top execs. Show us the money and the hell with the people and environment.

You know, it is ILLEGAL to use the FDA as an advertising gimic! It is ILLEGAL to imply meaning that is not there, and ILLEGAL to simply intentionally mislead.

YET, several companies have ACTUALLY said "The FDA has determined that the benefits of .... outweigh the risks!", and implied other things, etc...! You want me to tell you a secret that maybe a few dozen million people on this planet actually understand? The FDAs CHARTER is to approve ONLY those things where the benefits can outweigh the risks! And the FDA approval does NOT mean it is the best, or EVEN that it is better than something that isn't approved!

The ONLY reason companies seak FDA approval is that they can only sell things that are natural or approved, and facilitates approval by doctors.

Steve

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gareth

13 years ago

Lets face it "MOST" legal drugs have side effects that will poison you in some way

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Gavin8492

13 years ago

Damn man :/

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Patrician

13 years ago

When doctors were spending money and effort to get through medical school, they were not offered NUTRITION - BASIC NUTRITION - BASIC PREVENTION.

Even a Doctor of Chriropractic (another NATURAL method that they fought and fought to suppress) takes NUTRITION as part of the curriculum. They do not take Pharma or Surgery because they are opposed to both - (and take everything else required to get out of medical school) --

... of course there are conditions that have been allowed to progress to the degree that only surgery or pharma could help (funny how that works).

MDs for the most part have no concept of 'SUB-CLINICAL' - yeah - that is before the **** hits the fan. Where you could in most cases still do something about reversing something naturally. So they just mask the symptoms and dope people up - send them for more expensive tests. Then many times it is just allowed to progress until it gets CLINICAL and they know what to do in some cases.

So it is not really their fault that they are uninformed. However it is sad that such smart guys can't put two and two together and realize that they need to update their skills. The funny part is they would not be 'upgrading' but going BACK TO BASICS. For hundreds of years people have used herbal and food products to prevent and cure disease. But not enough money in it I guess.

This is not to say that doctors are not great when you are bleeding out or in a serious condition.

Bottom line is IT'S MY BODY AND MY LIFE - LET ME BE FREE TO MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS. Somehow you can regulate my environment and even take money I earn to pay for your communist agenda - I am a drone and a slave, **** you very much. However we have to draw the line somewhere, don't we?

...oh wait where is my tin foil hat now - you know the one about mind control...

DON'T DRINK THE KOOL AID, YO.

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dorianjohn425

13 years ago

Great reading here guys...Thanks for the inputs

Personally, I am a user of herbal products still...Herbs has been used even in ancient times.

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Dr. O 13 years ago

Originally Posted by dorianjohn425

Great reading here guys...Thanks for the inputs

Personally, I am a user of herbal products still...Herbs has been used even in ancient times.

Herbs are awesome!
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HeySal

13 years ago

Dr. O - I reserve my tin-foil use for my walls, thanks :rolleyes: But if you'd like to have a rational discussion instead of reverting to such inane logical fallacy as tin foil hat screaming, I'd rather.

A dangerous substance is no less dangerous in the hands of a professed and certified professional that has no more knowledge about the product than was offered by the manufacturing company's tilted research, than the bottle of herbs in the hand of the person who has read only a paragraph of a website about the product.

Am I paranoid for not trusting my life to someone else just because they have 8 years of college? I have had college, too - I KNOW how to do research. Does that mean I am a conspiracy theorist because twice I was left to having to figure out how to save my own ass when someone with shiny credentials was going to level it because 1. money 2. they were not allowed by law in the US to prescribe the treatment that would actually cure me.

I wonder what the little dog sitting beside me thinks of the tin foil I wore when I told the vet to go to hell and promised him he would NOT die of the bone cancer that was killing him when I met him. He's alive, well, and pouting about not being out exploring a creek and woods while I am working right now. And he's alive to pout like that because I wore my tin foil in to the vet's and refused to listen to the two options I was given by the medical community - cut his arm off (front arm, not good for a deep chested dog) or drug him for pain until he could no longer walk, then put him down.

I'm going to agree with you -- people need to research what they are doing very thoroughly before they do anything, whether it is herbal on their own or pharms from a "licensed" professional --- and I don't mean cruise websites helter-skelter - I mean getting into the nitty gritty research as it was actually done, not company edited versions of it, and putting 2 and 2 together and drawing as logical a conclusion as possible - then testing something slowly instead of just plowing into it. Is it working or are you getting sicker?

I'm alive and Ricky is alive because I refuse to be blindly obedient and because I follow the money.

When a doctor tells someone that they can't be treated or cured, I consider it grossly negligent to not find a different means to save your own butt when someone else says they can't- "cure" in the US is a patented word when it is used as medical terminology -- and it only means that "we don't have a pharmaceutical means to make you well. It never once ever did mean that there wasn't a way to get well. People don't always understand the full implications of a language (that's why brainwashing via language is possible).
But do you actually decry them for searching out unorthodox treatments even after they are told by doctors that they have no hope? You are saying to just die without search for what WILL work is not suicide?

If a person takes a pharmaceutical drug and it kills them - it's their own fault. If a person takes an herb and it kills them, it's their own fault.

To assume there is any entity on the planet that is more concerned about your own body than you should be is the very attitude which as allowed abuse to proliferate. To assume that an entity who will never meet you face to face and know anything about you will care about you when the alternative is to live a wealthy and lavish lifestyle is complete lunacy.

I don't blame doctors personally. They are only the middlemen in a wealth based system.

Got to run - time to get my little furball here his omega 3 and lycopene.

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Got to run - time to get my little furball here his omega 3 and lycopene.

i recommend DHA/EPA, lycopene (CLA, ALA, and many more to my patients/family/friends...really anybody).

While I can imagine that you could expect that my direct expertise with lab/clinical research, medicine (western and natural/alternative), health insurance operations, health and fitness, anti-aging and disease prevention may possibly introduce an element of bias, I would still contend that your view of the industry as a whole may be tad myopic - and may suffer in its acuity as a result.

There are schmuks in all industries - "natural supplement" producers who hawk ineffective products under false claims and marketing, crooked vets, docs and dentists who abuse their power and make ill gains based on fraudulent clinical findings - to big pharm that flexes its lobby muscle to get advantageous rulings...

We'll just have agree to disagree here. We all create our own reality.

I just welcomed my 1st son into this world yesterday. I'm still awestruck by the full court press of expert care and intervention that allowed this small miracle to burst into our world. I am very grateful and lucky to have this HEALTHY, amazing bundle of 36 hour-new life laying peacefully next to me.

Happy Birthday Enzo!

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Dr. O

i recommend DHA/EPA, lycopene (CLA, ALA, and many more to my patients/family/friends...really anybody).

Surprised they still let you do that. They just illegalized intervenous ascorbic acid and vit B.

Does it make a whit of sense to you to predict flu pandemics and in the next breath outlaw intervenous C? It was bad enough you had to actually ask for it even if you were dying of flu. But to illegalize it? It's that sort of thing that makes me a little "myopic".

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Surprised they still let you do that. They just illegalized intervenous ascorbic acid and vit B.

Does it make a whit of sense to you to predict flu pandemics and in the next breath outlaw intervenous C? It was bad enough you had to actually ask for it even if you were dying of flu. But to illegalize it? It's that sort of thing that makes me a little "myopic".

re: the Vit C issue, I see your point. Ideally there should be a more clear-cut documentation of potential harm to warrant such action. While the financial incentive is clear, big pharm is able to cloak it under the veil of supervision as a "benefit to the consumer" - I get it.

However, the flip-side of that is the intravenous delivery of the natural supplement. These don't fall under the "natural products" classification and thus are regulated differently.

So no worries - our O-3, O-6, vC, B12, prohormones, L-dopa, yohimbine...

are all safe

(for now

)

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clint48 13 years ago

Well did the bill pass or not?
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HeySal

13 years ago

Dr. O -- Congratulations.

I am so glad your boy was born healthy.

Let me make a wish for you and your wife -- plenty of sleep between feedings and diaper changing.

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Dr. O -- Congratulations.

I am so glad your boy was born healthy.

Let me make a wish for you and your wife -- plenty of sleep between feedings and diaper changing.

Thank you so much.

I have to admit it was an eerie experience having the roles reversed and finding myself the "baby daddy" in an emergency c-section "scenario #5"

I found myself reading the fhr/toco strip with the nurse and watching ominous signs of fetal distress and hypoxia arise. I was so grateful at that moment to have been able to "run the drill" with the L&D nurses and get mom and baby stabilized before the OB on call got on deck.

Ultimately, despite 12 hours of labor and everyone's (ob, nurses, myself, wife, doula) best care, ultimately we had to get him out of there emergently. Many thanks to the stat c/s team. Our new baby boy is totally healthy and doing amazing! 58 hours old and he is SOOoo cool!

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J Bold

13 years ago

Some of these people who practice "alternative" medicine merely get the accepted "mainstream" endorsements and then include some alternative treatments if patients want.

Problem solved?

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HeySal

13 years ago

Clint - It's part of the CODEX alimentarius - they didn't need to vote on it. They can do whatever one of those thousands of treaty documentations "give" them the go ahead to do. Yes - if you get the flu and you ask for intravenous C, you will not get it. I used the word "bill" in lieu of the actual situation. Don't know how else to describe the treaty. It is an act of health bondage - slavery.

Dr O. -- I don't fault doctors as a whole. Some have gone above and beyond, and I know their hands are tied on some issues. If they go against law, they lose their jobs. It's got to be a nightmare for a doctor who knows a cure and find's his hands tied to use it.

I do not always refuse to see a doctor. I just have no need to see one usually. I keep myself pretty healthy and fix a lot of my own problems. If I were to break a bone, don't imagine I'd hide, though - I'd definitely be in getting it fixed. For childbirth, doctors have been a blessing. So many women used to die in childbirth that live now because of trained professionals at their sides. I can imagine your child's complicated entrance made your position a godsend and horror at the same time. I'm seriously glad it worked out for you. Knowing what you do and having a hand in that end would have been so much harder for you if it hadn't. Enjoy your baby. I hope he knows what an awesome daddy he has.

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Dr. O

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Dr O. -- I don't fault doctors as a whole. Some have gone above and beyond, and I know their hands are tied on some issues. If they go against law, they lose their jobs. It's got to be a nightmare for a doctor who knows a cure and find's his hands tied to use it.

the usage of oral naltrexone (an mu-receptor specific opiod antagonist - reverses effects of narcotic overdose) for the treatment of cancer, asthma and many other ailments yields an interesting discussion.

Obviously, naltrexone is....surprise - off patent, and is FDA regulated. Imagine dealing with such issues as an MD who wants to rec an alternative treatment to a pt, but running the legal risk of treating outside the "recommended uses/diagnosis"

Kinda frustrating having your hands tied or risk having your ass out for the lawyers.

Our systems ain't perfect, but ultimately - the positives outweigh the negatives handily. You just have to focus on what works.

So yeah, if we, the registered health providers (nice wide spectrum there thank you) have to comply, its not surprising that the kids mixing serotonin precursors with sympathomimetics and ephedrine to get (really) high may get their "natural remedies" regulated.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Dr. O -- I thought ephedrine was banned, at least OTC. Am I thinking of something else? My metabolism runs like a freight train so I never used it.

I've never found anything better for my asthma than fresh squeezed OJ, Sunshine, a nice stiff cup of coffee, and a drive through the country, actually. LOL. Hey - whatever works, eh? My doctor when I was a kid was horrified because when I had an asthma attack my parents would get in the car, dad would drive and mom would hold me on her lap so I was leaning forward looking out the window and she'd rub my back. I always came home breathing. Go figure.

As far as drug abuse. There's a million things to get high on, both natural and pharma. If someone wants to get stoned, they're going to. Nutmeg can get you stoned, but would anyone in their right mind suggest eating large doses of the stuff? Are we just going to pull it off the shelf because some wanker can figure out how to get high and very sick from it?

On the other hand - I have a neighbor who's taking about 7 drugs, all doctor perscribed.....including nasaids (however they're spelled) and aspirin. Can we pull that dude's license?

Actually - here's where we're gonna disagree. I think the system sucks. As far as I'm concerned we need to boot the gov and FDA straight out of medicine and let the doctors handle it. Let them do the research and inform other doctors of the results with no editing by companies, and no input from the FDA, which gets its funding straight from the corps they are meant to oversee.

That system wouldn't be perfect either - but if doctors wrote the college courses, my bet is there would be some pretty intense changes in the curriculums. There'd be a lot more solid info on natural remedies, there'd be no qualms about who was going to get riled if someone used something that actually heals just because some corporation was going to lose a few bucks. People wouldn't be taking the bizarre mixes of upwards to a dozen pharms every day - and there wouldn't be the strange combos of natural and pharms being taken either.

It's not the naturals that are bad - it's the fact that the real info about them is suppressed. If doctors were allowed to just use them when they knew they'd help, people would understand them better. Ask anyone if turmeric or licorice root has any side effects and I'm guessing 99.9% will tell you no. That's not good any way you look at it -- but it's real easy to avoid the problems if they would just put the info on the damned bottle. How can they just pull things because the poor little cud chewers might use it wrong if they won't allow the pertinent info be printed on the damn bottle? Gets my goat. Real hard.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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Christine2011

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

People should be able to choose the treatment they want, from shamans rattling bones to surgeons with bloated lifestyles.

The shamans do little harm.

I agree

because everyone has their freedom to choose...

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