Looking For Guarantees?...Go Get A Job

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So this person inquires about my coaching offer.

Bottom line: Asks if I will guarantee that he will make money.

Folks, if you want guarantees, go get a job.

/Rant

Editor take the day off today? Or has it become fashionable to lead with the word "so" when one is writing something other than a cartoon?

You don't capitalize after using a colon. "Guarantees" in that context is singular, not plural. And when using 'net slang like "/rant," you don't use capitalization.

Tip: if you're going to write a condescending diatribe whose sole purpose is to self-promote your literary greatness, then try and convey that within the content of the message itself.

Bonus tip: thanks for pointing out the difference between a boss and a coach: one pays you to put up with his BS; the other expects you to pay him to listen to how full of himself he is.

-Spyder

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mojojuju

15 years ago

I like that the Warriorforum offers this free grammar and English correction service. How much are they paying this guy?

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jimbo13 15 years ago

Spyder

Are you English like me?

Dan
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Bekah Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So this person inquires about my coaching offer.

Bottom line: Asks if I will guarantee that he will make money.

Folks, if you want guarantees, go get a job.

/Rant

Steven, I completely agree. Working for yourself is a huge risk. If you cannot handle the risk, then you shouldn't be your own boss. People ask for a guarantee for everything, including if a 5 cent product will make them millions. It's ridiculous. The need to stop whining and realize what they're signing up for.

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Tip: if you're going to write a condescending diatribe whose sole purpose is to self-promote your literary greatness, then try and convey that within the content of the message itself.
-Spyder

Spyder, just wanted to point out that this post proves how new you are here. Steven is a highly respected warrior here who does not need to make post for the point of self-promotion. He is well enough known and respected that he doesn't need to "cheat" the system in that way. In the future, you should probably double check who you are speaking to before you even think about using this kind of tone.

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bekah Howard

Spyder, just wanted to point out that this post proves how new you are here. Steven is a highly respected warrior here who does not need to make post for the point of self-promotion.

Respect is earned. I don't give it based on someone's post count, or how great other people think they are.

-Spyder

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

I like that the Warriorforum offers this free grammar and English correction service. How much are they paying this guy?

Nothing. It was a one-time freebie. I'm not an Editor, and 99.9% of the time I could care less about the quality of someone's writing. The one time I do is the one time too many that I've stepped in the same puddle of whine that most people use personal blogs to vent on.

I sure as hell wouldn't be dumping my little pet peeve about some coaching gig on an IM forum. But if you want to joinhim in using OT for your personal whine of the day, or just hold his hand while he gets his off his chest, have at it.

-Spyder

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Rob Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Nothing. It was a one-time freebie. I'm not an Editor, and 99.9% of the time I could care less about the quality of someone's writing. The one time I do is the one time too many that I've stepped in the same puddle of whine that most people use personal blogs to vent on.

I sure as hell wouldn't be dumping my little pet peeve about some coaching gig on an IM forum. But if you want to joinhim in using OT for your personal whine of the day, or just hold his hand while he gets his off his chest, have at it.

-Spyder

This is an off topic discussion forum. If you don't want to listen to it, then don't come in.

Steven has contributed far more than you, and if statistics are correct, he'll still be in this forum when you are long gone and forgotten. Look at his thanks, join date and post count...way more time, way more care and contribution - all you succeeded in doing is make yourself look like an ass in front of potential clients and buyers.

You're just a kid, bitching as much as he did in his post. In fact more so. You took the time to craft a stupid response complaining about his bitching. So who is the bigger idiot here?

Rob

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

This is an off topic discussion forum. If you don't want to listen to it, then don't come in.

Steven has contributed far more than you, and if statistics are correct, he'll still be in this forum when you are long gone and forgotten.

If that post is how you define "contribution," then our expectations are a little different.

Look at his thanks, join date and post count...way more time, way more care and contribution - all you succeeded in doing is make yourself look like an ass in front of potential clients and buyers.

I wasn't suddenly "born" the day I decided to join the WF. If you base achievement and a person's measure solely around the parameters of the WF, then again our outlook on things is a little different.

You're just a kid, bitching as much as he did in his post. In fact more so. You took the time to craft a stupid response complaining about his bitching. So who is the bigger idiot here?

"Bigger idiot" is one of those losing contests that I'm going to sidestep altogether. On the "kid" part, that goes back to paragraph #1 and false assumptions.

FTR, I limited my reply to that first post - in its entirety - solely to that post. I said nothing in it about whatever else he's done here or elsewhere in life, nor attacked him personally - I replied, again, solely to what he'd written.

But if you feel that by my doing that, you have license to throw words like "kid" and "idiot" at me, then there's not much I'm going to say to you in response - because my post wasn't directed at you personally, Steven personally, nor his apparent cult like following.

And FTR, if you're a cult like fan of his, then I'm not going to attack you for that either.

-Spyder

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Jonathan 2.0 Banned 15 years ago

Group hug time.

;-)
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mojojuju

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Nothing. It was a one-time freebie. I'm not an Editor, and 99.9% of the time I could care less about the quality of someone's writing.

While I'm sure it's true that 99.9% of the time you could care less about the quality of someone's writing, I really believe you meant to say that "99.9% of the time I couldn't care less about the quality of someone's writing." :p

Originally Posted by Spyder77

The one time I do is the one time too many that I've stepped in the same puddle of whine that most people use personal blogs to vent on.

I sure as hell wouldn't be dumping my little pet peeve about some coaching gig on an IM forum. But if you want to joinhim in using OT for your personal whine of the day, or just hold his hand while he gets his off his chest, have at it.
-Spyder

Personally, I couldn't care less about the OP's pet peeve. Your comments though, amuse me.

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yukon

Banned 15 years ago

You get bonus points for going the extra mile, lol!

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Editor take the day off today? Or has it become fashionable to lead with the word "so" when one is writing something other than a cartoon?

You don't capitalize after using a colon. "Guarantees" in that context is singular, not plural. And when using 'net slang like "/rant," you don't use capitalization.

Tip: if you're going to write a condescending diatribe whose sole purpose is to self-promote your literary greatness, then try and convey that within the content of the message itself.

Bonus tip: thanks for pointing out the difference between a boss and a coach: one pays you to put up with his BS; the other expects you to pay him to listen to how full of himself he is.

-Spyder

Thanks

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mattlaclear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Editor take the day off today? Or has it become fashionable to lead with the word "so" when one is writing something other than a cartoon?

You don't capitalize after using a colon. "Guarantees" in that context is singular, not plural. And when using 'net slang like "/rant," you don't use capitalization.

Tip: if you're going to write a condescending diatribe whose sole purpose is to self-promote your literary greatness, then try and convey that within the content of the message itself.

Bonus tip: thanks for pointing out the difference between a boss and a coach: one pays you to put up with his BS; the other expects you to pay him to listen to how full of himself he is.

-Spyder

So your job here on the forum is to point on typos and grammar errors? How is that helpful to the forum? Or are you looking to establish yourself as the resident know it all here at the forum?

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Rob Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

So your job here on the forum is to point on typos and grammar errors? How is that helpful to the forum? Or are you looking to establish yourself as the resident know it all here at the forum?

I have found that people who point out grammar, typo's and spelling errors have no leg to stand on other than "I'm more intelligent because ____ so that means that_____"

Instead of bitching about Steven's bitching, he could've provided any number of useful contributions. Things like:

- No, there isn't guarantee's, but perhaps Steven this guy is just desperate and looking for an answer...

- Steven, I encourage you to not get frustrated by people who don't understand, remember, a lot of us were there at that point too.

Instead, he chose to take the "your grammar/typo's suck and that is how I'm going to show you I'm a bigger person".

Rob

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

So your job here on the forum is to point on typos and grammar errors? How is that helpful to the forum? Or are you looking to establish yourself as the resident know it all here at the forum?

According to Rob's reasoning, I'm exactly the person that would be Steven's potential customer. That was my reaction, as a potential customer to reading his rant.

Why? Because I was taught (by Professors rather than internet coaches) that there's no such thing as a stupid question, so long as its a legitimate one.

Was Steven's customer's question to me legitimate? Why wouldn't it be? From the way the post is worded, its a safe assumption that the customer asked it to be clear on the terms of the payment. What is wrong with that?

If I'm going to reason the way you and Rob have been, then my interpretation of how you operate is that if the customer doesn't know all the answers up front, they he just shut his mouth and pay the money or walk away. How is that based on sound marketing principles and where are you getting them from?

I didn't realize until your post and Rob's, that there's two specific IM'ers doing business here under the model that the customer is nothing more than a walking wallet. Because if he can't even ask a simple question about the terms of the agreement, then what else is he?

And whose business model does that rabid defence of really say more about - yours, or mine?

Not mine.

-Spyder

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mattlaclear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

According to Rob's reasoning, I'm exactly the person that would be Steven's potential customer. That was my reaction, as a potential customer to reading his rant.

Why? Because I was taught (by Professors rather than internet coaches) that there's no such thing as a stupid question, so long as its a legitimate one.

Was Steven's customer's question to me legitimate? Why wouldn't it be? From the way the post is worded, its a safe assumption that the customer asked it to be clear on the terms of the payment. What is wrong with that?

If I'm going to reason the way you and Rob have been, then my interpretation of how you operate is that if the customer doesn't know all the answers up front, they he just shut his mouth and pay the money or walk away. How is that based on sound marketing principles and where are you getting them from?

I didn't realize until your post and Rob's, that there's two specific IM'ers doing business here under the model that the customer is nothing more than a walking wallet. Because if he can't even ask a simple question about the terms of the agreement, then what else is he?

And whose business model does that rabid defence of really say more about - yours, or mine?

Not mine.

-Spyder

So that's why you railed on Steve's grammar and formatting.

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Rob Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

So that's why you railed on Steve's grammar and formatting.

That was my thought.

If he really thought that it wasn't a stupid question, he should have called that out in the beginning. I would have somewhat agreed with his sentiment then. But he didn't. He chose the "I have no leg to stand on 'grammar/typo' bash" a-hole approach.

Sounds like his "real" problem with Steve's post was more of an afterthought he came up with to cover his whole he dug.

Rob

edit: (apologies. I meant to type "hole". Typo. But you can go ahead and bash on it now. It makes you a better person than me.)

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mattlaclear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

That was my thought.

If he really thought that it wasn't a stupid question, he should have called that out in the beginning. I would have somewhat agreed with his sentiment then. But he didn't. He chose the "I have no leg to stand on 'grammar/typo' bash" a-hole approach.

Sounds like his "real" problem with Steve's post was more of an afterthought he came up with to cover his whole he dug.

Rob

edit: (apologies. I meant to type "hole". Typo. But you can go ahead and bash on it now. It makes you a better person than me.)

Apparently trolls have learned to become college educated edit hounds. So good on them!

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HeySal

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

Apparently trolls have learned to become college educated edit hounds. So good on them!

Um....Matt? That has nothing to do with College - I took a degree in linguistics - which taught me that in conversational mode, spelling doesn't count. So don't get on people that education turns them into perfectionist assh*les.

Next - the slam on the spelling, word usage, etc -- was not about that. Read what he said again. He was pointing out that if someone is complaining about someone else they need to make sure they do so with perfection or they open themselves up to the same flame they are throwing.

Next - we just saw how someone reacts to someone that they don't know who is used to people knowing who they are. We can flame and prove someone right or wrong - stomp their face or put them on a pedestal and paint them gold, it's not going to change the way people see things.
Steve came in here to rant mostly to people he knows in here - but his rant was viewed by someone who doesn't know him well. Isn't that something we need to consider when we say things? I rave in here figuring I'm talking amongst friends, too. A lot of us do. Yet there are always those who haven't got the years of background with each other and our BS really makes their head twist.

Steve - there's a lot of scammers out there and your customer (potential customer) might have to be very careful with their money. They wanted reassurance. All they need to know is that what you offer CAN make them money if they follow through. That's all. "I can't guarantee that you will follow through with this system, but if you do, you will make money". If you can't tell them that, at least let them know exactly what benefit you CAN guarantee. I know your work - you do have something that they WILL get from your program. Give them something to go on. Trust is an awesome thing - but that has to be won, it isn't automatic with all the crap going on everywhere.

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mattlaclear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Um....Matt? That has nothing to do with College - I took a degree in linguistics - which taught me that in conversational mode, spelling doesn't count. So don't get on people that education turns them into perfectionist assh*les.

Next - the slam on the spelling, word usage, etc -- was not about that. Read what he said again. He was pointing out that if someone is complaining about someone else they need to make sure they do so with perfection or they open themselves up to the same flame they are throwing.

Next - we just saw how someone reacts to someone that they don't know who is used to people knowing who they are. We can flame and prove someone right or wrong - stomp their face or put them on a pedestal and paint them gold, it's not going to change the way people see things.
Steve came in here to rant mostly to people he knows in here - but his rant was viewed by someone who doesn't know him well. Isn't that something we need to consider when we say things? I rave in here figuring I'm talking amongst friends, too. A lot of us do. Yet there are always those who haven't got the years of background with each other and our BS really makes their head twist.

Steve - there's a lot of scammers out there and your customer (potential customer) might have to be very careful with their money. They wanted reassurance. All they need to know is that what you offer CAN make them money if they follow through. That's all. "I can't guarantee that you will follow through with this system, but if you do, you will make money". If you can't tell them that, at least let them know exactly what benefit you CAN guarantee. I know your work - you do have something that they WILL get from your program. Give them something to go on. Trust is an awesome thing - but that has to be won, it isn't automatic with all the crap going on everywhere.

Point taken. Must have blurred vision from the four wisdom teeth I had pulled at lunch time.

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Believe it or not, I hold no ill will towards Spyder. He's entitled to his opinion.

A few points.

1. When I come here, I don't construct finely worded articles. I just BS. That's
what we do at the OT. Sorry if I wasn't professional enough on this trip.

2. I made it perfectly clear that the prospect was asking if I'd guarantee him
that he'd make money. IMO, nobody can do that. Anybody who makes that
kind of guarantee is being less than honest.

Why?

Because there are too many variables involved in running your own business.

A. The niche you pick. I can guide you but I can't force you to do something
you don't want to do and I can't stop you from marketing underwater
pole vaulting if you're hell bent on doing it.

B. I have no control over your work ethic. I can tell you what to do and how
to do it, but at the end of the day...it's all on YOUR commitment.

C. I have no control over your budget and monetary commitment. Some
niches are very difficult to break into without spending a considerable
amount of money. If you're determined to make 3K on a $20 a month
budget, good luck.

I could keep going but I think you get the point.

FWIW...as soon as this question was asked, I knew this person was not
right for me. I have very strict requirements for who I work with and
somebody who asks right out of the gate if I can guarantee 100% that
they'll make money is not somebody I want to work with.

Spyder...you don't like how I worded my post and don't like my rant?

Guess what?

I couldn't care less if I tried.

Yeah, you don't know me and I don't know you.

Quite honestly, I prefer to keep it that way.
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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

Apparently trolls have learned to become college educated edit hounds. So good on them!

Yeah imagine that - some of your potential customers might be college educated.

The post wasn't written to troll for anything. Had I known it would have invoked this kind of rabid defence around an attitude otherwise indefensible, I might have paused half a second before submitting it.

I don't have anything more to add to it so I'm not going to bother. By now you've either gotten the point as intended or you haven't. If you haven't, c'est la vie.

-Spyder

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Yeah imagine that - some of your potential customers might be a college educated.

The post wasn't written to troll for anything. Had I known it would have invoked this kind of rabid defence around an attitude otherwise indefensible, I might have paused half a second before submitting it.

I don't have anything more to add to it so I'm not going to bother. By now you've either gotten the point as intended or you haven't. If you haven't, c'est la vie.

-Spyder

Spyder the issue I have with your posts is you clearly miss read what Steve said.
It was not about a money back guarantee or the cost or anything like that.
It was about a person looking for a guarantee that they would make money.

If I buy any of your products will you guarantee me that I will make money?
What if I don't use the product or put any effort into it?
Steve's customer was looking for something that no honest person would give.

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Spyder the issue I have with your posts is you clearly miss read what Steve said.
It was not about a money back guarantee or the cost or anything like that.
It was about a person looking for a guarantee that they would make money.

If I buy any of your products will you guarantee me that I will make money?
What if I don't use the product or put any effort into it?
Steve's customer was looking for something that no honest person would give.

I will clear that up so that there's hopefully no further misunderstanding: I knew at the time of my reply what was being asked, but in meeting an unexpected wrath of replies, I muddied the waters (unintentionally: for me it was never about the question itself, just that it seemed a little to harmless to provoke that kind of post from Steven).

The initial, and each reply that followed was based solely on the tone of the original post in response to a question from a customer, and that was all I was thinking of with each response.

Sal understood it as it was intended. I wasn't trying to show "anything off," just to clear that up. I tried to inject some irony into it but missed the mark.

My niches are self-help, so the closest to an equivalent for me would be if they asked if my product didn't meet their expectations, would I refund their money? The answer there is easier for me (in fairness to Steven) as I only produce the product once, and I know a certain percentage are going to request a refund on any product, no matter its merits (the product isn't a physical one, so its a kind of double dipping - they keep the product and their money - that is an expected part of that business model for me).

I wouldn't be able to guarantee that a person would be able to make money on any product, so I couldn't offer that no. And that would be my reply to them. If they opted not to buy the product or service, then that's no big deal to me because, again its part of business. I'm not going to rant about it on a public forum, in either case, and that's what the first post was about. Nothing more, nothing less. I did some play on words, but that was to add emphasis to the point only. I didn't expect the response to it that it generated.

Again, Sal already managed to get the point I was trying to make across - minus the unintended antagonism to people I never intended to antagonize when I wrote it.

Hope that clears things up.

-Spyder

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Bekah Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

The initial, and each reply that followed was based solely on the tone of the original post in response to a question from a customer, and that was all I was thinking of with each response.

Spyder, you admit that tone is crucial, but yet when I tried to politely (and relatively respectfully, considering the accusations you had just thrown at someone I happen to respect a great deal) point out that you may want to be less disrespectful towards others, this is all you had to say.

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Respect is earned. I don't give it based on someone's post count, or how great other people think they are.

I agree that respect is earned. However, I also believe that disrespect is also something that is earned. To act so disrespectfully to someone you didn't know proves that you do not deserve respect in return.

Comments like the ones below are not making the point of "a client should be able to ask a question, no matter how stupid it seems".

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Tip: if you're going to write a condescending diatribe whose sole purpose is to self-promote your literary greatness, then try and convey that within the content of the message itself.

Originally Posted by Spyder77

I sure as hell wouldn't be dumping my little pet peeve about some coaching gig on an IM forum. But if you want to joinhim in using OT for your personal whine of the day, or just hold his hand while he gets his off his chest, have at it.

As for the comment below, I'm not sure who you "unintentionally antagonized", since you openly insulted several Warriors, such as ccmusicman and mattlaclear ("I didn't realize until your post and Rob's, that there's two specific IM'ers doing business here under the model that the customer is nothing more than a walking wallet."). Just some thoughts to keep in mind.

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Again, Sal already managed to get the point I was trying to make across - minus the unintended antagonism to people I never intended to antagonize when I wrote it.

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Alan Petersen 15 years ago

SO... the anonymous "spyder" troll writes one of the most condescending posts I've read because he/she was upset about the OP's condescending post. SO... he/she decided to pick on grammar. On a forum. In the off-topic section. Too funny.
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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bekah Howard

Spyder, you admit that tone is crucial, but yet when I tried to politely (and relatively respectfully, considering the accusations you had just thrown at someone I happen to respect a great deal) point out that you may want to be less disrespectful towards others, this is all you had to say.

I agree that respect is earned. However, I also believe that disrespect is also something that is earned. To act so disrespectfully to someone you didn't know proves that you do not deserve respect in return.

Comments like the ones below are not making the point of "a client should be able to ask a question, no matter how stupid it seems".

As for the comment below, I'm not sure who you "unintentionally antagonized", since you openly insulted several Warriors, such as ccmusicman and mattlaclear ("I didn't realize until your post and Rob's, that there's two specific IM'ers doing business here under the model that the customer is nothing more than a walking wallet."). Just some thoughts to keep in mind.

Bekah,

My original response to your post was pretty brief. My first response also drew a lot of fire from directions I hadn't foreseen it coming from. Steven provided his response where he provided more elaboration, and I mostly agree with what he wrote in it (enough to leave it there).

There was a larger context in that quote toward Rob and Matt (along the lines of, if you believe that.. then...), but I dropped the ball on making that distinction clear.

I apologize to you if my short reply to your first post offended you, as there was no offence intended. Apologies to Rob and Matt as well, as that was a foul ball.

-Spyder

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Bekah Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Bekah,

My original response to your post was pretty brief. My first response also drew a lot of fire from directions I hadn't foreseen it coming from. Steven provided his response where he provided more elaboration, and I mostly agree with what he wrote in it (enough to leave it there).

There was a larger context in that quote toward Rob and Matt (along the lines of, if you believe that.. then...), but I dropped the ball on making that distinction clear.

I apologize to you if my short reply to your first post offended you, as there was no offence intended. Apologies to Rob and Matt as well, as that was a foul ball.

-Spyder

Well, I was not actually not offended by your response, I just found your view that people should be treated disrespectfully if they have not earned your personal respect dangerous (for lack of a better word).

I also just wanted to warn you about the connections between some of the warriors. For example, you must have missed the part where Rob is my husband (and business partner), so comments you made towards him were indirectly towards me as well. Once again, I'm not angry at you, I just think you have a lot to learn.

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Spyder77

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

So that's why you railed on Steve's grammar and formatting.

I guess you kind of have to be able to follow the visual train of thought that it was framed around: his writing skill is his product; the post is about a customer making (what is apparently) the mistake of asking a question about the payment terms of that product; that leads to a 3 sentence rant where he manages 3 basic errors in composition. If you don't see the irony there, then that's okay, because irony is something you either get or you don't (kind of like comedy - not everyone gets the joke). I saw irony there and incorporated it into my response.

You have to keep in mind, I don't Steven W. any more than many of his potential customers he deals with are likely to. I don't know him as well as you guys do - but that is kind of the point, isn't it? Would you ask him for a guarantee? From the tone of the replies, that question is rhetorical: its implicit in the reply that for you the question wouldn't even come to your mind.

If you're a potential customer and this is your introduction to him, and this is also (presumably) a source of his clientèle, then I can see why its lost on you guys. Its not lost on me, and its not going to be lost on those who don't know him either.

Where is the sound business model that begins by antagonizing your customer base by insulting them up front because one asked a simple question?

Why would I want a coach who I'd feel like I'd have to keep my mouth shut lest my question unwittingly offend him to the point that I become the subject of a diatribe in the WF. I wouldn't. I'm paying this person to provide me a service. Regardless of how high he holds in his own eyes, to me he is paid help, and I'm paying for that help and not his opinion of himself. Nor that which anyone else holds him in.

If your business model is in providing personal coaching, and this is the personality you put on display toward your would be students - I don't want your help and I'm not buying your product.

And I missed the apparent shift from when "the customer is always right" model of service to this new model some of you seem to embrace that begins instead from the premise that "I'm always right and the customer had better keep his damn mouth shut unless its to ask a question I decide is valid."

-Spyder

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mattlaclear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

I guess you kind of have to be able to follow the visual train of thought that it was framed around: his writing skill is his product; the post is about a customer making (what is apparently) the mistake of asking a question about the payment terms of that product; that leads to a 3 sentence rant where he manages 3 basic errors in composition. If you don't see the irony there, then that's okay, because irony is something you either get or you don't (kind of like comedy - not everyone gets the joke). I saw irony there and incorporated it into my response.

You have to keep in mind, I don't Steven W. any more than many of his potential customers he deals with are likely to. I don't know him as well as you guys do - but that is kind of the point, isn't it? Would you ask him for a guarantee? From the tone of the replies, that question is rhetorical: its implicit in the reply that for you the question wouldn't even come to your mind.

If you're a potential customer and this is your introduction to him, and this is also (presumably) a source of his clientèle, then I can see why its lost on you guys. Its not lost on me, and its not going to be lost on those who don't know him either.

Where is the sound business model that begins by antagonizing your customer base by insulting them up front because one asked a simple question?

Why would I want a coach who I'd feel like I'd have to keep my mouth shut lest my question unwittingly offend him to the point that I become the subject of a diatribe in the WF. I wouldn't. I'm paying this person to provide me a service. Regardless of how high he holds in his own eyes, to me he is paid help, and I'm paying for that help and not his opinion of himself. Nor that which anyone else holds him in.

If your business model is in providing personal coaching, and this is the personality you put on display toward your would be students - I don't want your help and I'm not buying your product.

And I missed the apparent shift from when "the customer is always right" model of service to this new model some of you seem to embrace that begins instead from the premise that "I'm always right and the customer had better keep his damn mouth shut unless its to ask a question I decide is valid."

-Spyder

The off topic portion of the forum is Warriors speak to one another as friends. It's more social than anything. So Steve was communicating to his friends not his prospects. If you do not get what he is talking about then move along and go lecture someone else on the forum who is ready to sit at your feet and bask in your brilliance.

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Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

The off topic portion of the forum is Warriors speak to one another as friends. It's more social than anything.

This ^^^ ... and this vvv

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

I guess you kind of have to be able to follow the visual train of thought that it was framed around: his writing skill is his product; the post is about a customer making (what is apparently) the mistake of asking a question about the payment terms of that product; that leads to a 3 sentence rant where he manages 3 basic errors in composition. If you don't see the irony there, then that's okay, because irony is something you either get or you don't (kind of like comedy - not everyone gets the joke). I saw irony there and incorporated it into my response.

You have to keep in mind, I don't Steven W. any more than many of his potential customers he deals with are likely to. I don't know him as well as you guys do - but that is kind of the point, isn't it? Would you ask him for a guarantee? From the tone of the replies, that question is rhetorical: its implicit in the reply that for you the question wouldn't even come to your mind.

If you're a potential customer and this is your introduction to him, and this is also (presumably) a source of his clientèle, then I can see why its lost on you guys. Its not lost on me, and its not going to be lost on those who don't know him either.

Where is the sound business model that begins by antagonizing your customer base by insulting them up front because one asked a simple question?

Why would I want a coach who I'd feel like I'd have to keep my mouth shut lest my question unwittingly offend him to the point that I become the subject of a diatribe in the WF. I wouldn't. I'm paying this person to provide me a service. Regardless of how high he holds in his own eyes, to me he is paid help, and I'm paying for that help and not his opinion of himself. Nor that which anyone else holds him in.

If your business model is in providing personal coaching, and this is the personality you put on display toward your would be students - I don't want your help and I'm not buying your product.

And I missed the apparent shift from when "the customer is always right" model of service to this new model some of you seem to embrace that begins instead from the premise that "I'm always right and the customer had better keep his damn mouth shut unless its to ask a question I decide is valid."

-Spyder

You really either didn't read Steve's post or you are seriously dense.

So this person inquires about my coaching offer.

Bottom line: Asks if I will guarantee that he will make money.

Folks, if you want guarantees, go get a job.

That is something 180 degrees different from what you are talking about.
It says nothing about a money back guarantee, asking about payment terms or anything else your going on about.

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Bekah Howard

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

Would you ask him for a guarantee? From the tone of the replies, that question is rhetorical: its implicit in the reply that for you the question wouldn't even come to your mind.

No, I wouldn't think to ask a coach for a guarantee that I will make money. Why? Because the amount of money I make is directly related to how much effort I put in. NO matter how much good information or advice someone gives me, if i don't implement it then I am the only one to blame for my lack of income. To me the answer is blatantly obvious.

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yukon

Banned 15 years ago

LMAO! at power trips!

Who cares about post counts, good grief are we stuck in the 6th grade or what? :rolleyes:

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Rob Howard 15 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

LMAO! at power trips!

Who cares about post counts, good grief are we stuck in the 6th grade or what? :rolleyes:

Well, statistically speaking, post count, thanks and time of sign up can be qualifiers for how well a person has contributed to a forum participation as well as how long they will stay.

Besides, Spyder was being an ass, no way around it.

Talk about respect - Steven has earned it, from lots and lots of people and has some breathing room for his "rants".

A guy who signed up last month, who goes on a grammatical diatribe about a simple post (which the message was "no guarantee's to make money...you want a guarantee, get a job"), has no real weight and just makes himself look stupid in front of people who DO respect Steven. That isn't particularly encouraging for potential partnerships, JV's, and the like. At least around here.

Rob
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Spyder77

15 years ago

And just to clear something up that you brought up - who is alienating and attacking whose customers? I didn't rant about a customer having the nerve to ask about a money back guarantee.

I don't insult my customers. Not here, and not in the niches that I operate in. I don't operate that way.

Just to set the record straight.

-Spyder

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Spyder77

And just to clear something up that you brought up - who is alienating and attacking whose customers? I didn't rant about a customer having the nerve to ask about a money back guarantee.

I don't insult my customers. Not here, and not in the niches that I operate in. I don't operate that way.

Just to set the record straight.

-Spyder

Apparently you didn't read Steves post either.
The rant was about a potential customer asking if Steve would guarantee that he the customer would make money.
It was nothing about a money back guarantee.

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seoguru1

15 years ago

some people just cant handle risk... doing internet marketing is a risk that we all take. Maybe we make money, and others lose money. We can reduce the risk by knowledge and experience, but I can see why some people are looking for a guarantee. With the economy and job loss where its at, people with small amount of money are looking to make money online and want a quick turn around so they can survive.

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paulgl

15 years ago

So, dang, rippin' on Steven W?

So, seems like it was written as a comic would be doing stand up.
I don't think people give a rat's hat about grammar when you're
in that mode...

So actually,

Folks, if you want guarantees, go get a job.

So, could be the answer to a ton of threads here...

So?

Paul

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Bekah Howard

15 years ago

Paul, you just made my day

Originally Posted by paulgl

So, dang, rippin' on Steven W?

So, seems like it was written as a comic would be doing stand up.
I don't think people give a rat's hat about grammar when you're
in that mode...

So actually,

So, could be the answer to a ton of threads here...

So?

Paul

Thanks

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Bottom line: Asks if I will guarantee that he will make money.

That's what many "marketers" promise. So I'm not surprised.

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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

Since when are jobs "guaranteed"??? And guaranteed for how long?? And says who?? Have you noticed the economy lately, say ohh the last few years or so? Lay offs galore, businesses shutting down or going overseas, etc.

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HeySal

15 years ago

Well, good rant EVERYONE.

I'm still in RCA dog head crank at the OP trying to figure out how Jobs are any more secure than IM, too.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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WD Mino

15 years ago

Wags:
what? No Guarantee? You mean I will have to work myself?
what?
what a croc
-WD

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HeySal 15 years ago

Originally Posted by WD Mino

Wags:
what? No Guarantee? You mean I will have to work myself?
what?
what a croc
-WD

Hey - knock it off. I've still got a whole shipment of pablum to get off to those who don't like that guarantee. I don't mess with your sales. Leave mine alone, wouldjya?
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dagaul101

15 years ago

Unfortunately too many new affiliates are looking for the all in one solution to make money, it unfortunately doesn't exist, and takes time, patience and lots of testing

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Looking For Guarantees?...Go Get A Job

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