LONDON IS BURNING

Neither can just talking....

I believe it's a balance of the two that brings about real change.

Talk to the kids, talk to the kids, ya we have been talking to them for how many years, giving them more freedoms, setting down all these laws to the point that you as a parent can't touch them anymore...

All they have done is laughed back because they know we " the adults" are stupid and this has been the end result. "We can do whatever we want, they can't do nofing, lol" We are the mugs for letting it get to this.

violence may make it worse, but none violence has not stopped it either. The police did jack all the first few nights and all the head of police could say was "parents tell your kids to stay in"... ya, that really worked.

This is really sad. The worse part is this will begin to happen all over the world soon.

I think they're a bit tied up invading other people's countries at the moment?

I'd also be inclined to give Dark Witness my vote, after his excellent comments on the previous page.

Funnily enough, I've seen/heard a couple of Australian current affairs commentators/analysts in the media over the last couple of days, people who just happen to be in London for other reasons, and they've both seemed absolutely astonished at what's going on and have been saying that anything like this would be completely unimaginable in Australia.

apparently in Jamaica i was told this does happen sometimes, the police shoot them down.
There was a travel agent being interviewed. His premises was ruined, he had spent 6 years building up his business for wasters like these to destroy it in seconds

It is to do with race, the majority on the streets are black/ mixed race and with around 10% of the UK being black/ mixed race that means the scale of black/mixed race people would be huge if there was a larger % of black people meaning the major problem is black people and a small number of white.

I'm listening to Jeremy Vine and there is a trader on whose shop has been utterly destroyed.

Wonder if the Insurance Company will find a 3 word term in pale grey buried on page 210056 excusing them from having to pay out?

I'm with Richard, these selfish little ***** who think the world owes them a free TV or mobile phone need shooting.

It's about time we built a big prison on one of the Shetland Islands well away from the rest of us.

Dan

PS: And now there are two 17 year old girls on blaming the government even though they can't name which party is in power, and they hope there are more riots tonight as they are fun!

I don't know how to put an image into a post as Thomas has done so I'll just have to put a whole link here. Sorry.

The reason we can't use water cannon in the UK mainland is because the police don't have enough of these:

wet floor sign - Google Search

Dan

That's kind of ironic, since I'm pretty certain the water cannons used on this side of the little pond were actually bought from a British manufacturer.

The Gardaí (the police in the Republic) borrow cannons from the PSNI in Northern Ireland on a regular basis. Although it's obviously easier to simply drive them over the border, I don't see what they couldn't be put on a ferry to Britain just as easily. Or, better yet, borrow some from the French, who also use them... I've seen stuff a lot bigger than water cannons on freight trains, so I doubt there's any reason they couldn't be transported straight from Paris to London by train in just a few hours.

Well there are 16,000 police being drafted in for tonight from 20 forces.

That is a full Division in the British Army, almost a Corps in size.

See what happens in 5 hours time. Hopefully nothing otherwise it will just carry on.

If 16,000 can't halt it then there is nothing more the Police can do as the rest of the country will be on skeleton crew which would lead to a criminals paradise.

Dan

the very thought of it is making my blood boil !!!

they need to bring back national service. let them service as punishment and ship them all off to support our troops, maybe they will learn how real men fight and get some discipline in them as well.

What I see is stupidity looking for a place to happen. The anger is more a sense of entitlement (I have a right to s-press myself) than for any real reason.

Could it be this is what happens when societies start giving without any work or service required? In the UK and US seems like the "poverty" programs come from so many different agencies, they are out of control.

A woman in Wisconsin was furious when the govt was shut down for a while due to budget problems - she said she counted on the $3600 in various state and federal subsidies she gets. Her payments and credits came from multiple govt agencies - added up they were a full time decent income. She said her "rights" were being violated...the right to be a leech?

When citizens are not required to contribute to society - some of them won't. When people can get payment and do nothing to earn it - they begin to feel they are entitled to be taken care of. Interesting so many of those troublemakers in UK are covering their faces - they know they are wrong. Yet if the police opened fire, it's the cops that would be roasted for it. Do they even carry guns now?

Those people don't have a cause - they have an excuse to act like criminals. They should be treated like criminals and if some are hurt or killed, my own opinion is "oh well".

kay

Dark Witness,

You've said some brilliant things in this thread and I agree with you 100%

If you ever go into politics and run for Prime Minister - Count on me for a vote, England needs people like you chap. Well done.

I'm off home, just heard rumours it's going off down the road here and my office is as far out as Bushey.

Rain Dammit!!!

Well there is not really anything going on now which is good.

A few sporadic incidences.

Insurance Companies have decided they will be passing on their bills to the Met Police, so that is nice that they are thinking of their spreadsheets and how huge payouts will affect their Xmas bonuses.

Dan

Gee, some work for YEARS to get answers. Rioting won't help.

Legally, I don't think ANY government considers that a defense.

For college? If they want to end up in the sewer, they can do that for free. Anyway, everyone is hurting now.

Well, that IS a way to attract the right people to be mentors.

WOW!

I simply stated a fact. And it is a fact.

For the record, it's also a fact that the gap between rich and poor has been widening in the US and other countries for quite a while. If it continues, expect more civil unrest, whether you agree with it or not. Like I said above, "right or wrong", civil unrest will happen if the gap continues to widen.

Irrelevant as I'm not justifying any rioting or saying it is logical or justified or it will solve any issue. I'm simply stating FACTS. And this isn't isn't about greed. It's about civil unrest.

Before you deny it, get me a list of the countries with the largest income gaps and the smallest. Then get me a list of the countries with the biggest problems with social unrest and we'll continue the discussion.

Right or wrong, it's how it is and will always be.

"Let them eat cake".

Huge chunks of London are in lockdown.

On a lighter note did anyone hear what the Iran had to say about it?

It was on the Telegraph feed around 12:00

They have asked us to show restraint and to listen to the grievances of the 'rebels'

They suggest there is a Human Rights examination in to the actions of the British government.

I believe China State News Agency are are having something to say about our ability to provide adequate security at the Olympics next year.

They must be laughing their socks off in those countries at our effeminate efforts to deal with things.

Dan

PS: News is saying there are flare ups in Manchester,Birmingham, Salford and West Bromwich

Amen.

Chap, if I have anything to do with this you will be Prime Minister one day.

I'm going to write to my local MP now.

My thoughts are with you Richard!

No amount of monetary compensation can ever replace what has been taken from these people.

The Police confirmed that he didnt reach for his gun or shoot anyone so his death was not justified.

Punished.Yes. Shot dead. NO.

Really? You think that when people commit crimes any response from the people who are hired to stop it will be perceived as racism? I find that hard to believe?

Its unfair to blame the parents there are lots of factors to consider. Unless you have spoken to every parent of the teenage rioters you can't possibly say that their lack of good parenting is to blame. Yes, some of the parents probably don't care what they do, but for the others, if you have a rebellious teenager on your hands who keeps sneaking out of the house to cause trouble with friends and fight you when you try to stop them, It is often a lost cause. You also seem to be forgetting that some of the rioters were adults.


He was unarmed apparently and he didnt shoot the police so he didnt deserve to die.

Its good to see that they were protecting in this way, it will be more helpful.
Last night i have read on news site, there were more than 500 people were arrested and one was killed during these incidents.

Banjoes? You can't hit a man over the head successfully with a banjo Sal!

No, no, we have baseball bats here. We don't play baseball but we have baseball bats.

No, no, you're thinking of bagpipes, Sal. They can disperse large crowds instantly with those things.

I think you'll find two were run over and killed yesterday for trying to stop looters. I'm not sure but I think the death toll is now 5 or 6. I know 2 people have been arrested for murder today.

Considering the carnage I still think that's good going though.

Not foreigners! I mean the gang's causing the riots!

Sorry i didn't make my point clear :confused:

The UK is not the USA.

Some people, not all, seem to think that guns automatically are the answer.

The police in the UK do carry firearms. In certain towns and most cities elements of the various police forces are trained firearms officers. But this kind of force can only be used in exceptional circumstances here.

I don't think the public here nor the police want to see firearms being carried by all police officers. This would set off a precedent of which there could be no turning back. And it sends out entirely the wrong message to society at large.

It may or may not work on American shores the carrying of lethal weapons by all police officers, opinion is divided on this. Here though, it's definitely not needed or required. We are still talking about a very small minority of people causing trouble for everybody else with regard to recent events.

Water cannon sure, why not? This I can support. Rubber bullets too in exceptional circumstances. Stun guns too. Lethal weapons no.

I think a lot of the problems with certain elements of the younger generation that get themselves caught up in these acts of mob violence have been brought up to believe only in rights not responsibility towards one another or the wider community.

Back when I was a kid, if you did wrong you got the cane - corporal punishment. The generation before me, if a young lad was misbehaving in the street for example, cursing in public, or throwing litter down on the pavement, a member of the public would give the boy a clip across the ear to remind him of his manners.

Now, I'm fully against corporal punishment and hitting kids full stop. I was beaten regularly as a child myself and it's something now that I'm dead against. But what we did learn was that you had a responsibility towards others, to be kind to other people and to demonstrate 'old fashioned' good manners towards people around you. Something which I still do to this day, all the usuals... opening a door for a lady, walking on the outside of the pavement keeping the lady safe on the inside etc. Manners which seem to be on the decline these days sadly.

Unfortunately these types of manners which I take for granted are generally not taught these days in certain parts of British society. There are rules the length of your arm and more (understandably) to protect children from coming to harm. But, it has to be said that for the last several years, a decade or more, it's gone a bit too far the other way.

Teachers today are fearful of losing their jobs if they reprimand even the most unruly of children whilst at school. And even parents are frightened of giving their children a slap for misbehaviour for fear of being charged with assault by their very own children.

And this obviously sends out completely the wrong message to children these days in this country. No wonder a lot of them feel that they can get away with anything. Even putting their finger up to the police right in front of their faces. These kids know that the law is 100% on their side and some of them take full advantage of this. Not all of them, far from it, but a minority don't give a flying fig about anyone or anything but themselves.

Modern society also teaches selfishness through and through. Rarely do you hear anything about caring for one another, good old fashioned values, brand selling has sent out the message for a long time now that it's all about you and stuff everybody else.

So is it little wonder today, when you combine all of the various factions of society together, the political system, home life, schooling, corporate branding, tv, video games, this that and the other, everything seems to be at loggerheads, overlapping issues, no clear sense of morality or direction, no good role figures, it's just me, me, me, me, me. And all the while, the younger generation just feels lost and understandably quite bewildered as they try to make some resemblance of sense about the world around them and their place within it and their own communities and society at large.

We can as a society come down hammer and tongs, come up with all sorts of draconian measures but is any of this really going to get to the actual root of the problem? And who has laid down this foundation? We as parents and being older and supposedly wiser, more mature in years must share our responsibility too.

This isn't just about one segment of society, one class, one race or races, or one generation. It's about each and every single one of us. How we shape our ideals. What we preach as being truly important in life. Adding real value to our own lives and to the lives of other people around us.

If we cannot sort out our own 5hit, how on earth are the younger generation most extremely affected by social exclusion issues supposed to work it out either?

If we bury our collectives heads in the sand, pretend it's not happening, get into the blame game culture nothing is going to get resolved anytime soon.

Everyone deserves dignity and that is what is missingin this country. But to give everyone dignity we also need dialogue.

A top down approach is skewed. Toffs talking down to the rest of us spouting absolute twaddle in many instances, not practicing what they preach is the last thing we need. The only way true positive change can happen in this country is to level the playing field. Give everyone a fair opportunity. A say in their community. A say in society.

People need dignity. They need to feel respected for who they are as individuals with a greater social responsibility towards the whole. And I believe this change can only really come about from the grassroots level up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they'll be talk... and more talk... and this measure... and that measure... more laws... more nanny state this... more nanny state that, and lo and behold you wait and see the true colour of British society today - diddly fat squat will ever change.

Why not? Because despite the will of the people, it's the corporate powers that be, the bankers and all the rest of the great schebang which will always dictate first the direction of this country. And they wonder why they've got problems on their hands!

I better leave it there, carry on I could write a bloody book at this rate.

I just can't agree that allowing a kid to go through abject poverty is going to help them in any way shape or form. Do you think their welfare moms and grandma's are going to help them?

Welfare isn't the party some people think it is even though there are many who abuse it and in some cases have created generations of welfare families.

Welfare (at least in the US) allows people to survive, but that's about it. If mom doesn't spend that welfare right, that family goes hungry - and that is NOT the kid's fault. Most people in this country haven't got a bat's clue of what real poverty is like. And as I am seeing from comments everywhere, anyone on welfare is automatically being tagged as scum.

What's it like to be a kid in a family that is seen as complete human shi*?
We want to deny them lunches at school now? It's not just welfare recipients that receive lunches. It's anyone with a small income. Kids of hard working minimum wage mom and dad's who work hard but can barely afford to keep life and limb together get those lunches. For some kids its about the only decent food they get. Do you really think that society would benefit by allowing these kids to starve? Are they supposed to work hard and achieve when they are starving? Go without food for a week and see what happens to your energy level, your ability to think clearly, and your general emotional well being.

Computers? Those computers aren't shiny brand new computers - they are RECYCLED. They are keeping poisoning trash out of our landfills and putting them in the hands of kids where they can be used to help them keep up with the higher levels of society. A kid that learns to weild a computer can save themselves - in this society, no computer skills means low level jobs that won't support you.

Some things must be given to kids or they won't survive in this society. People have no respect or care about anyone poor here even if they are trying. There is a lot of catch 22 in being poor that those who have never been in need don't see. Perhaps the adults can be held responsible - but the kids need help.

We talk about entitlement attitude. Is the poor kid who gets the computer entitlement hungry -- or is it the kids whose parents give them anything they want the blame. There isn't any way to compare giving a kid a recycled computer and the kid whose parents hand them $200 tennis shoes just so they can maintain a status quos.

Being poor in a society that worships money and judges people by the status quos is not the easy time some seem to think it is.

As far as cell phones being a right. Does that mean land lines are also a right? No. Why? Because the government WANTS people to have cell phones -- they are very powerful surveillance devices. In some countries they are now trying to make it illegal for kids under certain ages to have cell phone in some public places and are trying to teach parents not to allow their kids to use them otherwise because of the radiation danger, which is now known and proven. Yet in our country - they want them to be a right.....even though a landline is not being considered an equal right.....think about that one for awhile.

Another thing people need to start admitting is their own prejudices against the poor. I have cousins who were raised in such abject poverty that they didn't even have bathrooms in the basement mom rented for them. The poverty was my aunt's fault -- but the kids got treated like breathing piles of excrement for it. Some of them rebelled and got out of the situation - the girls mostly by getting married. Some of them ended up in jail.

The ones who actually got out in a normal fashion were the ones who were lucky enough to be taken under the wings of an adult who saw their need and instead of trying to deny them a school lunch, made sure they had what they needed to make it out, who gave them some moral direction and some guidance - bought them books and decent clothing. The material things that were given to them didn't once give them the attitude of entitlement -- because it all given while guidance was being offered.

There is a difference between giving a kid something to keep them occupied so they can be ignored conveniently and giving them what they need to fit into a culture and making sure they have the guidance they need to become responsible adults.

People need to stop spitting on kids that don't have - and stop begrudging them having anything given to them -- and start caring about them getting the guidance from an adult who can actually help them build a life for themselves as a caring member of a community. It isn't the material things that have ruined kids - its the lack of the immaterial needs that they have being met that is ruining them. Our nanny state has become the perverted uncle in every way shape and form.

Actually I've just read in the paper a story of one poor looter who was trying to escape having had a wonderful time smashing stuff and stealing and this awful policeman hit him 3 times with a truncheon and kicked him. How terrible. :rolleyes:

Needless to say there is going to be an investigation into why force was used to stop an innocent rioting, thieving, arsonist looter from escaping back home with his swag.

This is the entire problem. What's the point in giving the police weapons if as soon as they use them they get in trouble?

I am totally disgusted that the policeman has got anything less than a bonus and was told next time to get a few more whacks in.

Honestly, this country has become a total pile of s***.

I heard they were actually ORDERED to STAND DOWN! In both the UK and the US there have been cases of people FIRED for doing their jobs because it was against current policy.

Steve

I was just checking out some of the rioters here:

London and England riots: looting suspects and rioters appear in court - Telegraph

And noticed they've already been sentenced! That's fast. The UK courts must not have to deal with a lot of the BS they do here in the US!

Interesting that a lot these looters aren't the unemployed "poor" as first reported. Just opportunist criminals many with jobs.

Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters - CNN.com

But as one father of one of the rioters said on the news today when questioned about his 13 year old son's behaviour - what was he doing about it?

He said, "What can I do to discipline my son these days? I can't lock him in his room, that's against the law and I'd be punished for it if I did that. I can't raise a hand to my son to give him a good hiding, that's against the law. I can't do anything with my own children without the state interfering in my family affairs. What else can I do when all responsibility for bringing up my own children properly has been forcibly taken away from me? I'm powerless to do anything about it and his behaviour."

And you know sadly to an extent, he's got a point.