It's really a sad news...Violence can't solve any problem..

hope it will be fine soon .

Yes, indeed. This has little to do with the police shooting that guy. If that was the issue they were protesting, they'd probably be vandalising and burning down police stations, not the property, businesses and ultimately the livelihoods of normal people.

Just an excuse for all these "wannabe gangstas" to let out all their stored-up rage and help themselves to some free, stolen stuff amidst all the commotion.

Imbeciles.

Its an excuse for the mob to steal a new pair of trainers. I believe a lot of the rioters are just kids.

i was in a city center UK last Friday (mid afternoon) and just looking around i was shocked how bad the standard of most people was. It was disgusting and an emerassment. Kids with ipods,phones glued to their ears shouting, swearing, drinking, not giving a t*** about anyone but them-selves. I even saw a bunch of louts swear at a policeman and all he could was "have a quiet word with them.." I'd hate to be in the police now. you have 0 power to do anything.
Then I see this over the weekend and thought "no surprise there." You try and tell some litter fouling, foul mouthed person to "pick it up, watch ehat you are saying.." and wait for the abuse. It has changed way for the worse. well done P.C.

I've got to agree with you Richard. What will stop the rioting is a heavy downpour and I'm looking at the dark clouds overhead, hoping that they'll put a stop to all of this.

I absolutely love London. It's a great city and it's been home for most of my adult life. So, it breaks my heart to see everyone destroying it, with no regard for the consequences of their actions. The thing that gets me with about these riots is they aren't about anything - it's just mindless violence without a real point and the Matt Duggan cause is an excuse.

What's more, I'm getting annoyed with everyone that's portraying this as a race thing. It's not. There are white kids out there, and there are black kids out there. It's irrelevant what colour they are: the rioters are just mindless thugs who want to destroy life and livelihoods for everyone, so they can get the latest mobile phone or HDTV.

I was ignorant to this story for most of the weekend (start of the football season and a few beers and all that) but it was yesterday when I read the full story and started to watch the live coverage of the carnage. I can't say that I am so suprised in all honesty. As has been stated above, a visit to any large city centre will leave you dumbfounded with the appauling attitudes of youths and their disregard for anyone but themself.

What has suprised me is, despite the fact that these mindless thugs have only a handful of braincells each, they have still been able to realise an advantage over the police and to spread the word around the city and now across the country.

I live in the outskirts of Manchester and believe there was some minor unrest in the city overnight. But if anyone (even some teenager) were to start damaging my car outside, they'd end up with something wrapped around their head and in hospital.

This is just the message the government needs that the UK ASBOs are a serious problem, probably even more so than immigration or any other current issue!

If this continues, do you think we may see an uprising of civilian crimefighters? Somehow I don't think so. Law abiding citizens won't take matters into their own hand because we have been programmed not to.

I don't have any knowledge about the guy who was originally shot dead and which sparked these events. No one deserves to die, but I saw a picture of him on the TV as I was typing this, and well, sometimes a picture says a thousand words. Suspiciously "gangster wannabe" attire and giving a gun gesture with his hand. Tells you all you need to know. These riots are totally unrelated nonetheless.

Hopefully the worst is now over, but I will be keeping my eye on this throughout the day and tonight.

Of all the pictures published of the riots, I found this one particularly poignant:



It's caption described the woman jumping from a burning building into the arms of "people" but, if you look closely, those "people" are, in fact, police officers... the same people the rioters are trying to blame for their actions.

Anyway, I wonder if the police in London have water cannons, and, if so, why they haven't deployed them yet? Beating and shooting rioters usually only inflames things even more, but nothing dampens their enthusiasm like being drenched with cold water. (Ever seen a riot in heavy rain? )

@seasoned - I think we're saying the same things, but might have got our wires crossed. :rolleyes:

Everyone's so quick to play the race card, but really it doesn't reflect the current situation in the UK with the riots. Lots of people from lots of different backgrounds are out there, and what unites them is that they're thugs who've given no thought to the lives and livelihoods that they're destroying.

@jimbo and sanssecret - My take on the reason for the riots is that there's now no "automatic" progress for most people. In the past, you could usually look forward to a lifestyle that was better than your parents and your grandparents. That's certainly not true now, for so many reasons. The cost of education is at an all time high, personal debt is soaring and public services are being cut. People are looking back at the way the world used to be, and thinking it's unfair they're in their current situation. So, they're taking a coloured TV to make up for it. Brilliant...

Now, I'm not excusing what the rioters have done - it's completely disgusting and there's no good reason for it. However, this lack of progress point is very real (it's a scientific and economic phenomena called the perfect storm), and I don't think there's a politician out there who's brave enough to say to the electorate that things are going to get worse, and they'll just have to deal with it. Unfortunately, I think that's what's really needed.

Lizziex

Death toll is now 1 during the riots.

Caleb

Sadly yes, a casualty has passed away. thoughts go out to his family. RIP.

This is a sad day for London and the UK.

A generation has grown up that simply does not value human life, does not value what it means to work and earn a living. They have no respect for authority, Not the police, not teachers or schools, not even their own parents in many cases.

Gov and law has made them pretty much untouchable and they know it ! whatever justice is served is nothing more then a joke to them.

What are they going to do, give them community service ? " Blood, I got me 2 weeks service you know, lol. Got me dis nice nike trainers, sweet brov" " Na blood, dats nofing, got me 3 hd tv's, xbox, trainers and bare drinks brov, gave me six months though, lol"

What i really want to know is where are the parents ? what are they doing? I don't see this as a race thing per say, but I do think the communities need to get real. They need to stop seeing every move the police make as an attack on them.

There is a major gun crime issue within the black community and it's taken root in others as well. If they refuse to accept it how can they do something about it? All I keep hearing is "he is a good kid", "he would never do this, never do that" then why are they running around with knives and gun's ? Rather then discipline them, they will defend them. it's never their fault.

Anyway, I don't want to go all political ( although I have a bit ). I am black and I live about 5 min from Tottenham ( West Green Road to be exact ). Something needs to done. I have seen the destruction with my own eyes. Ask them why they are doing it "we are upset" what are you upset about? "don't know.... "

sorry for the rant.

There is a cleanup going on today so I will be putting a hand in trying to make a difference.

And when you think you can't get any lower, there's footage of an injured bystander on the floor covered in blood, some rioters help him up and then help themselves to the contents of his bag! Sickening.

Disaffected and disenchanted youth with diminished responsibility who have no feeling of connection with society.

The riots that are happening were definitely sparked off by the shooting, now it's just a chance for people to look, rob and feel like "big men". Definitely a symptom of utterly disgraceful social situation in the UK today.

WOW dark witness,

That cancer is spreading all over. The same thing has happened in the US. ICSM! OBVIOUSLY the same thing happened in Greece, and several other places. HECK, I saw a demonstration in Denmark that was noisy, etc... so who knows about THAT? My uncle was non too pleased either. GRANTED, he is a patriotic US citizen, but his feelings are nearly as strong for denmark, and his feelings THERE were from a DANE'S point of view.

In the US, there have been comedies about fuedal families that are BROUGHT UP hating one another and like 3/4 of the time NOBODY knows a reason. The other 1/4 of the time it was generally for a relatively minor, or localized slight. Certainly not something the whole family should be denigrated for. Usually though, people, like what you describe, were RARE and frowned upon. Sadly, today, it is often considered "COOL".

Steve

Geez...it gets better.

Look at this video; a news reporter confronts some looters...listen to the "excuse" given. :rolleyes:

Also, note that he mentioned "Waterstones" as being completely untouched. For those who don't know, Waterstones is a book shop. I think that tells you quite a bit about the people involved :rolleyes:

‪Clapham Junction looting‬‏ - YouTube

Water cannons - big dogs - tazers.

And for all those who get identified, stop their dole money straight away.

The "rich people" will do what they have done for MILLENIA, and simply look at this as vandalism and theft. They will act accordingly. Those girls(I don't care if they are 90years old, they acted worse than a 2yo!) did NOTHING new! The ONLY thing new about this is the time. So their excuse makes as much sense as saying that they did it because the sky is blue.

Steve

If aliens from another world land in that neighborhood anytime soon, they'll assume no sign of intelligent life exist on earth. :rolleyes:

I would bring military in & woop those idiots destroying private property!



‪Clapham Junction Riots & Looting 8/8 9.30pm‬‏ - YouTube

Yes have seen from last few days, surely there were some other elements which were using this situation for their own bad purposes. But Govt involvement is very important to settle down for every thing.

Well first of all I am way behind the times. I didn't think 'bobbies' carried guns in England. When did they get a fair shot (no pun intended).

That was as ludicrous in this day and age of the police in the US being outgunned by the gangstas (automatic weapons, bullets that penetrate bullet-proof vests, etc).

I think the water cannons are the perfect solution - ZERO tolerance -

Even peaceful 'protests' always seem to have the troublemakers that just exploit an opportunity to 'act up'.

There is no excuse either for attacking the police or for destroying innocent citizens' livlihoods. If they only had the sense to know this costs money that could be spent on improvements. The people always pay one way or the other.

Definitely should put the perps in 'work camps' - make them do time and learn a trade - remove them from welfare benefit programs.

I am really sorry to hear about this whole thing and hope it ends soon - permanently.

All that is needed from the sounds of it is for the adult population to get off their duffs and go out and start clubbing a little human respect into those little heathens.

These things are signs of multiple problems. At this point all caused by the greed of an elite class.

People are no longer allowed to discipline their children and education is being degraded - we are supposed to think that undisciplined, uneducated children will act like civil humans? NICE JOB government (and I'm speaking to the American gov, too, which is just the same elitist ilk as the one in the UK- you thought you're way of raising children was superior to the authority of the parent in their own homes? How's that working for you? You thought that cutting education is the way to develop a slave class and that education is only necessary for the elite class who will eventually completely rule? That's working well, too, eh?

And of course - Political correctness - it doesn't hurt to cater to hords of illegal immigrants who have no will to melt into our cultures and customs. Let them erode our customs instead so there is no social order for the newer generations to identify with - yet one more elegantly orchestrated plan.

And when it IS a racial thing, turn your head because it's far better to let a race or nationality terrorize and kill your people and destroy your cities than to "OFFEND" them. That just wouldn't be right after all would it? By labeling a police action "racism" iinstead of fighting hostile invasions, your life is made very simple and you save all that money you need for employees and material wants to support your way of life. Yet one more terrific and sociopathic bit of planning. Don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back.

And what it all comes down to is that the elite that spit on the education and discipline of the youngsters -- they NEVER learned themselves what any solid education in sociology and political history has proven for thousands of years now.....

You think that classes of people below the elite exist only to feed your greed? Another one that works real well, eh? And how 'bout the poisons you are immersing people in? Pollution allowed because a corporation is rich enough to have influence - toxins in food, household products, grids of microwave baking everything it comes near - without concern to what these things do to the human mind? Rome pulled that one with their led pipes and it went about the same way, but it's okay to poison the lower classes, because we're just here for your profit anyway and killing us off early is great for the population crisis - after all, once our money is gone we serve no real purpose anyway, right?

People do not riot when they are scared. They do not revolt when they are angry.......
They riot and revolt when they have nothing left to lose.

Right now there is general unrest -- there is hopelessness. Right now there is confusion about causes and enemies. It won't be long before these youths find a leader who understands where the actual enemy lies and they will form a violent union against it -- and the elitist class will fall. It has been this way throughout the history of the world and it will continue to be so until the end of the world.

History repeats itself solely because humans cannot understand the true and full destructiveness of selfishness and greed.

The problem isn't REALLY poverty. There are poor people that are HONEST!
The problem isn't REALLY literacy. There are illiterate people that are honest.
The problem isn't REALLY intelligence. Again, that doesn't mean they are dishonest.

The problem is REALLY "culture". The thing is those cultures, for whatever reason, cherish such things that are not proper. They ALSO don't believe in disciplining things society considers bad. They often ENCOURAGE stupidity, illiteracy, and dishonesty. Seems DUMB, I know, but it is the truth.

Ever see the addams family? It is almost like THAT! For those that don't know, or don't see my point, the addams family came from a comic strip of the same name. They cherished pain, destruction, destroyed land, dangerous creatures, rose stems(they cut the flowers off), torture, etc.... Granted, they had a seemingly good family, but even the cultures I am talking about seem to. The Addams Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's hard to put a statistic on many things, but there is one statistic that can very accurately show civil disorder in a society and that is the difference between the rich and the poor in a society.

Societies with large gaps between their rich and poor have much more civil unrest than societies with smaller gaps. For a stable society, the poor need to feel as if they have a chance at being rich or at the least of having a better life.

Right or wrong, if a society won't take care of their poor and give them a chance, while there is a wealthy class getting richer, expect more of this type of civil unrest.

I have family in and around London and this is absolutely disturbing. Hoping for a peaceful resolution very soon.

Had to agree with the social worker on the bbc news talking about how kids and their rights have got silly over the last 15 years. Many kids in the UK to me have lost respect for authority figures including parents and police. One of the reasons I left the UK was I had an arson attack on my backyard of my town house (buring my backgate and a bench left to me by my grandad to ashes) in a nice area of York where I lived. The attackers were two 8 year old kids who the police said little would be done with as courts didn't like taking action on kids so young!

Rich

Steve...um....for God's sake, man -- turn off your freaking television.

This has nothing to do with dishonesty/honesty. As I said before - it's a sign that the youth feel they have nothing left to lose.

Sure - the kids say - "We can do anything and nobody can stop us". But why is it that this is they type of thing they choose to do? A society of kids that have hope and dreams go out and build what they can - do what they can to make things better - not destroy what is built. They obviously seek a vengeance for what has been built. They are poor, stupid, ill, hungry, and feel abandoned by those (parents) who never gave them direction because they were more afraid of what the gov would do to them, than what would become of their children.

These kids are told no funding for school when their families can barely scrape money for food. They are losing decent homes while the rich pomp around flaunting their increasing wealth. They see few jobs in their future and see fewer means to escape poverty. They see corporations destroying their health and the planet in general. They feel abandoned and see no hope.

So they are lashing out. It is a mass cry for help -- and someone with the authority to do so better damned well listen to it and listen to it fast because it WILL become more directed over time.

What we see as a bunch of little hoodlum thugs right now may just be the force that very soon stops the elitist class from subjecting us to complete and ruthless control and stealing everything we own.

This matter will not be remedied by force. The only way it can be stopped is to have the elitist class immediately return control of children to their parents - and return some liberty and money to the general population. This form of social dissent is how it starts in EVERY society on earth when the rich and powerful decide it's their right to own the rest of the population and use their power to oppress.

oh yeah how thick were they

"it's the governments falut....the Tories or whatever they called, them in charge."

Why did you burn down a shop?

"because they are rich and own a business..." DUH!

FERREL! But go into most schools now and that was tham 5+ years ago....Society is going to be really f*** up in a few years time. You simply cannot tell anyone to do what is decent these days. Teachers. police, parents have lost all power. Anyone really think society is beter now than it was 30+ years ago?

i am surprised they didn't hit him again actually.....Worse then the Wild West.

well I noticed a huge change in the UK i left in 1996 to the one I came back to in 2003. I mean you walk down a street now and you have "F...this and F.... that" clear as anything form 12+ year old kids. When you have children with you it is annoying. But god forbid I actaully say something. I'll probably get knifed and some Judge will say I asked for it.

But let's now pretend this is just a UK problem. It's worldwide.

you see i think this is the major problem....no-one is scared of the law any more. Beat someone up for a laugh...hell worse case you gwet 3 years in a"hotel" fully paid and well looked after. Heck for most of them it's better than life a t home.

Murder some dad walknig with his children on a park. Shock horror you might get 15 years in youth remand center. Cushy number.

Where's the punishment now? They laugh in court on murder manslaugher charger (seen it with my own eyes) Once that happens you are in serious shi*

Remember when we were kids? Some said "I am phoning the police (hey...something like playing knock a door run away) and we would bolt with sheer panic. POLICE...we'd shake with fear. If our parents found out we'd be in seriuous trouble.....No. Why did this happen? How can it possibly be humanly fair to let offenders punsihment be trips to Alton Towers? It's almost comical!

Lawlessness in physical form. But not the same thing that the corrupt corporate machine has been doing for years. Apparently it's fine for the big guy to s**t on the small guy and do it legally, but when the small guy does it "illegally" then it all kicks off.

Last time I looked pal Bernie Manderhoff got about 150 years whilst Bulger murders got next to f** all. Justics for you?

To be honest I don't think any more than 5-10% of these rioters have any other agenda than to just cause mayhem for the fun of it (and to score the latest Nike trainers if they can). All this talk of social classes, half of them don't have a clue about all that. All they know is their single parent mother can't afford their lifestyle and they've got no respect for her anymore.

They've heard other people spout against the government, and the police, and so if asked they'll try to muster up some "rebellion excuse" against the machine (see the two girls who didn't know who was in power). Nah, the only agenda for these scrotes is to go and do what they've wanted to do for ages (be as anti-social as possible for a laugh) and have only got the balls to go and do it now they've seen others do it successfully, and while the police are stretched to the limit.

And you DO. Don't rattle about TV then ask what something's got to do with it. You're to smart for that kind of crap.

Also - nothing is ABSOLUTE - but there are norms. If you want to think it's not the norm, do some sociological study. The only time it doesn't take the norm is when there is oppression distorting or oppressing the norm.

Schools are in both countries, of course - but they have been *******ized as institutions of leaning. And yeah - when the classes become split between the super rich and powerful and a slave class that can barely support life - it DOES cause these problems.....always.

Hope this gets sorted out quickly.

Welcome to the result of 25years of devolution of a country! Where the British government have been pussy footing around empowering the scum you see wrecking the lives of those honest hard working folk! Am not surprised in the slightest this is happening infact I am surprised it's taken this long!

This isn't something that can be fixed overnight... There's generations upon generations of the same mentality, lack of respect and a culture built upon where no one takes responsibility for there actions.

I feel bad for the majority of people who are infact good honest hard working people who can't even protect their own property because of the laws of the land!

PS am dual national and got the hell out of there 9yrs ago after living there most of my life (28yrs) and have absolutely zero regrets! Part of the reason was to get away from that type of mentality...

Glad some reporters at least aren't afraid to speak the truth.

This is not about race - I experienced the race riots in Manchester it was disgusting! I feared for my own life because of the color of my skin! This is about society and culture and self-respect actually the lack of it!

The guy that got shot - I have zero sympathy - live by the sword die by the sword!

Kicking off in Manchester now...

I hope they quit looting the little guy's shops and go loot the big corporations, like Wal Mart (if they are in that area), so that the company can handle the losses. The independent owner most likely cannot or will be tremendously hurt and devastated by the loss.

@jimbo13 . . . Would you expect anything less from companies like insurance companies or banks/credit card companies? They don't care anything about anyone except their quarterly bottom line. And for them it's par. This for them is as Goldilocks said, just right.

No excuse for this type of behavior, period!

People are using the shooting as an EXCUSE to do horrible and illegal things to others.

Don't give me the poor misunderstood youth, who can blame them......routine.

Far too long people are too willing to excuse away the reprehensible behavior of others.

I would not want to be unarmed in the UK at this moment. God help you all........

Those people are not protesting.....they are destroying.......

Remember that just because you are angry or have psychological problems does not give you the right to rob and pillage.

I have worked in the psych field for years, and the WORST thing that can be done is to give people carte blanche for their behavior. They are responsible and accountable.

The UK government must make them both.

The fact that they've now discovered that the gun found near the shooting victim wasn't fired will further fuel unrest imo! The fact this guy was carrying the gun in the first place will all but be ignored! "HE ANT DON ANYFINK WRONG, HE WOULDNT HARM ANYONE! JUSTICE JUSTICE JUSTICE". Can see it now!

thats terrible, i hope UK recovers and the riots stop.

First, regarding politics, I like this guy, but he is "from the other side of the aisle". Hopefully it won't offend you. Second, regarding religion, please ignore it if it offends you. Regarding race, I have said the same sort of thing to whites, and he is black, so please forgive that. OH, and HEY SAL, PLEASE forgive that this is a video! It loses impact and veracity if it is simply written. The meaningful part starts after 6:56, you can start at 9:12, if you want, as that is where THIS stuff starts. The kids part starts around 21:54. And he REALLY gets into it, for the kids, at 27:30. Anyway, if you skip the first 7 minutes, it is almost devoid of religion. He IS speaking the truth. And it is good advice, so hopefully nobody will be offended, etc... It is how the mayor of philadelphia handled a similar event:

Mayor Nutter addresses Mount Carmel Baptist Church | Philly | 08/08/2011

There ARE other versions of this, but MOST are just tiny excerpts of this.

This covers the mother, the father, the child, and YES, THE CULTURE! OH, and he says what he is doing to HELP and what he will do at the END, if anyone fails.

Steve

I just seen on the news that Baseball Bat sales have increased in London over
5000% in the past 24 hours alone!

This sh!t is sad. Just frigging sad.
~MM~

Paul - exactly what I was waiting to see. I am delighted to see it. Maybe this was the nudge people needed to take their lives back into their own hands. EXCELLENT.

Hope they get this under control very soon.

Well, I guess that explains the 5000% increase in Baseball Bat sales...lol

I just hope they didn't buy some type of knock offs and purchased
authentic Louisville Sluggers...lol

~MM~

Sales up 75000%+ on sluggers yesterday.. Baton sales were WAY through the roof too, but now they have been pulled from the market.

read tweets from "fakes' About throwing babies during the riots. My heart goes out to my friends in the UK, who've been e-mailing and tweeting me all day. This is seriously a sad & screwed up situation.

Caleb

I saw it on the news that there has been a commotion in London. Let's pray that this will end soon because lot of innocent people will die in here.

As a londoner I stand by the police that kid deserved to be shot dead on the spot for carry a gun, gun posession is illegal.

It means innocent law abiding people do not own or have access to guns, this law makes it very dangerous for us law abiding citizens when criminals get access to guns. Therefore the police need to enforce the anti gun laws well and properly. Immediate shoot to kill is perfectly reasonable and justifiable IMO for these thugs who carry guns.

Hope they return to peaceful life as soon as possible to go

Apparently there were 300 or so of them by the end and in Southall a predominantly Indian Hindu/Sikh area (for the benefit of those outside England) there was a big group of Sikhs patrolling and ready to defend the local temple and the area. Even the police were clapping the group in the video.

This is exactly what is needed because these people won't just link arms and stand still 150 metres from the rioters. That's half the problem, the rioters know nothing painful can happen to them, if this lot get them on the other hand, a good slap is the least of their worries.

.....and yes that woman was a touch annoying to listen too

One thing that did really upset me was, as has been mentioned, the poor old chap who had his 140 year business burnt to the ground. Listening to him saying it had survived the 1st World War, the blitz during the second World War, the depression in the 30's and 80's and all the riots in that time...and now, in one fail swoop by a bunch of pr***s with hardly a reason to do what they're doing, it's all gone up in smoke.

Shame really because the rioters, thinking only of themselves are destroying other peoples lives. Ironic really they whinge about the government making life hard for them, then in response they ruin the lives of everyone around them.

I hope the situation become normal very soon. Because 99% of people want peace living only 1% do not belong to the society.

The excuse for vandalism gets no respect from anyone

Hoping the justice system comes through and as well as charging them they name and shame... Put em public in locks and stocks too in the city centers lol well there's no room in the prisons anyway!

I hope my British counterparts have the sense after this to get rid of their current government and restore what was once a family oriented culture. I also hope the rest of my fellow human beings take note and take the same course of action.

My own in particular (Australia) is heading into very murky waters with a new legal proposal which would water down the definition of domestic violence to include just about anything, such as simply raising your voice in a petty argument. All this will do is allow vindictive parents to use their children as pawns and deny the other any opportunity to see them. Despite the fact that it is well established that it is important a child have a meaningful relationship with both parents.

The consequences of which will lead to delinquency, a complete breakdown of society, and chaos such as that on display in the UK.

It's a sad state of affairs really.

Chris

PS. I'm an atheist

Why was the person that was shot carrying a gun anyway, 'Live by the sword die by the sword'. I have no sympathy, if I had my way i'd let the police or army shoot the scum looters or give them a 20 year sentance.

People are losing businesses that have been in the family for years, and are not getting compensated or insurance.I don't believe in police violence but in this instance the scum deserve everything they get, I know my view won't be popular but that is what i think.

What you've got is a younger generation thinking the whole world owes them a favour. Brought up on all the latest must have gadgets and clothing trends. Along comes the recession, severe cutbacks on spending right across the spectrum, extremely high unemployment, the heat of summer, the feeling of being pent up, nowhere to go, no prospects and wanting a piece of the pie just like their peers.

What better way to get a slice of the action than to go on a bender with your mates, smashing up your neighbourhood taking anything and everything they can get their hands on and using the social networking sites to organise the next round of attacks. And woohoo, you might even get seen on tv.

Take the piss out of the police, the prisons are full, no moral compass, these youngsters know the police can't touch them and the police themselves are now so fearful of using force in case they themselves get sacked.

In this PC society the police don't even know anymore whether they're a force or a service. PC says they're a service, the older generation a force. And in the meantime their respect from the local community has dwindled to virtually nothing.

Even the clothing has changed over the years. The local bobbies used to wear their traditional uniform and be out on the street patrolling on foot. These days they're more often than not clad in all the latest body gear and look more like an impersonal fighting machine / gang of the government there to protect the rights of the corporations only.

A bobby today cannot act on his own judgement in scenarios such as this. All decision handling on the ground is handled by a central control team and commander in many instances many miles away and if they/he says stand down/off that is what the team on the ground has to do.

The whole situation had become an absolute farce.

And now they're saying we have to have more talks to discuss what the problem is whilst to most ordinary men and women in the street it's obvious what the bloody problem is.

There is a lack of respect in society, it's rotten from the inside out. Young people feeling deprived of jobs and a future they've been led to believe is theirs for the asking - if they work hard for it.

Now they're penned in like cattle, the heat of summer, playing violent video games nonstop, can't go anywhere, can't do anything, have no money and sooner or later everything starts to boil over.

God knows what's going to happen in 3 weeks time with the Notting Hill Carnival! It's a recipe for disaster at the moment.

I say bring back National Service...

Young people need to be taught self respect for themselves and for the wider community. Keep selling them on all of this latest brand stuff and little wonder they turn out sooner or later into selfish little thugs with no sense of direction in their lives.

It's not only their fault this whole situation, it's easy to tarnish just the young people involved with the riots but at the end of the day there are unresolved reasons why this kind of activity is spreading. Young people need hope for the future. They need dignity but when you strip everything away from them what have you got left but a recipe for unrest and violence?

Within 12 months this is all going to kick off massively again. How many riots have there been just in the past year?

This country is pretty much shot. And I better leave it there because if I go on the conversation will end up going in a direction not welcomed upon this forum.

The whole thing is absurd. It needs a serious shake up in the system.

Big Society my ass! :rolleyes:

I used to be proud to be in English! Not no more! Got the worst goverment ever, get ripped off on everything! Think i might start a riot!! Joke

Seriously though, the trouble is we are to freaking soft and theres to many foreigner's here! About time we got more stricked!

I'd personally shoot them all to be honest!

This thread is getting more and more political - read the word 'government', 'left', 'right', 'conservative', 'liberal'.

Hope it doesn't get shut down - Let's keep it to the basics without reference to 'politics'.

These are thugs who deserve severe punishment - at the very least a water cannon and jail time.

There is no excuse, no rationalization - no blame on anything or anyone besides the perpetrators directly. Period. It is just plain lawlessness and anti-social behavior.

Doesn't matter how old, how young, how much money they have or what color their skin.

There is an old monster movie someplace in my memory where the call was

'KILL IT BEFORE IT MULTIPLIES'.

So "Just Do It."

Paul... everyone has different opinions and just like everybody else I'm trying to make head or tail of it all. My opinions can be subject to change at any moment given new information to work with, that is the nature of life, it's transformative as it progresses.

Of course this is the minority and I absolutely applaud the majority of young people who are law abiding citizens. And those involved in the cleanup - it's brilliant, really inspiring to see.

These matters have to be talked about though, generalisations are what they are.

I couldn't hope to say everything here that I feel about the related issues - A/ I've not the time to do so and B/ It would be almightily long to write fully about all of the overlapping social issues as I'm sure you can appreciate.

The above was but a very brief summary of my general feelings, my personal opinion on the issues involved based on my own observations and direct experience.

As for my comment about bringing back National Service or something similar... yes I do think this would help immeasurably. As I said, my opinion.

That's what a discussion forum is for, to have discussions. A bit of back and forth conversation. From which we can all hopefully learn from one another, learn and move on. That's life.

So on the point of National Service... what do you feel is the answer?

What do you feel in practical terms can be done to rebuild communities suffering the effects of extreme social exclusion?

What would you like to implement as a springboard platform under ideal circumstances?

I'd love to know.

Listens carefully...

I have lived without TV for 10 days(Cable problems....) And then i turn on an see this.. Omg, I'm shocked!

"We are taking our taxes back..." Omg, most of those kids don't even know what the **** taxes are.

Especially the video of the kid who was helped up, then robed, It truly breaks my heart to see people that mean.

The police were criticized during the Student Protests for being too heavy-handed. A lot of negative reports in the press came out at the time about their tactics (kettling, etc.) A left-wing national newspaper The Guardian published articles (online) basically saying it's wrong to consider the Police as your friend.



Let's stop assuming the police are on our side | Nina Power | Comment is free | The Guardian

Now the Police are holding back. They are not engaging with the rioters using their usual tactics and as a result the riots are spreading and continuing. As a result, the media is clamoring for water cannon and rubber bullets - in fact far more aggressive tactics than kettling and the previous measures in place deemed unacceptable.

So, to answer the question of why can't the Police control the riots - they don't want to until they've made their point.

The video of the people lining up to protect the streets gave me goosebumps. That's what there needs to be more of. Wow, how sad the whole situation truly is.

highhopes,

Lately, Western european societies, in the US at least, have been shown as the ideal, etc... Oh well, THAT didn't last long. As for those POOR millionares? Yep, $22,000 is 1,688,500Y! They DO have support built into the culture, the food can be cheaper, and the culture INSISTS they try their best. OH YEAH, the culture is pretty homogenous.

Steve

I hate the fact that over 50% of the rioters don't even know what the riot is all about, they're just looting stores for the "fun" of it.

[DELETED]

Kay,

WELL SAID! In my defense, I am NOT saying that computer knowledge isn't a good thing to have. I was once counting all my big successes, and my big failures. I think one of my really big successes was noticing that electronics was getting more complicated and proprietary and started moving towards computers, so I moved my specialty from electronics to computers. I mean people used to slave over mechanical calculators, and NOW they used accounting programs. They used to design special purpose circuitry for almost everything, and now often replace them with computers. The average home may have a half dozen computers in it that NOBODY every really sees, like one in the microwave, tv, etc....

And even many HERE say not to really learn programming. HECK, many have said not to bother with HTML. I have interviewed people for database jobs that didn't even know SQL! That is like interviewing a car mechanic that doesn't know how to turn a screw!

And with so many illiterate people, etc... maybe we should concentrate on other things.

Oh and SAL... As I said earlier, we DID have a commodore P.E.T.. We EVEN had a key punch! We had an old teletype hooked up to the L.A.U.S.D. computer education department. The PET was so old that it was unreliable! The keypunch was SO old that it didn't type the text, so you had to learn holerith code to check it. But that is all WE had! And that school had a number of successes. When I was there, I was maybe the second best student in the school. The best was probably a friend of mine. HE seemed to do fine. I have been the goto guy almost everywhere I ended up. And what of the other guy? Well, he was SO good with math that he was in the math club, and the best there also, often even surpassing the teacher. And the teacher had a lot of respect for him. Last I heard, he was at J.P.L. OH, and the class before mine, one of the persons was kevin mitnick. Kevin Mitnick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HEY, not everyone will be honest. As I understand it though, he was a mischievous hacker, trying to learn, etc... Of course, the telephone company didn't like his getting free calls.(The first product sold by jobs and wozniak was a blue box for free calls!), and dec didn't like someone seeing their source. Today, he works in security! Mitnick Security Consulting, LLC

So what of the new(OK, it is 3 or 4 years old at this point) MA school that gives each student their own computer? LUDICROUS!

Steve

Kids will do what they are taught to do if they are taught to do it for a understandable
reason.

Morals come from seeing examples. The problem with younger parents is the fact that
they don't/can't seem to find time to set an example for their children. They yell at
them saying "No, Don't do that" but they don't tell them why or if they do tell them it's
in a tone of voice that becomes annoying to the child and eventually they quit listening.

To have a child understand right from wrong you have to gain their respect and give
respect when it is deserved.

Have you ever noticed that larger families tend to have a closer relationship between
each other? They learned that the way to survive was that they HAD TO SHARE.

Sharing is a Big Problem now a days. Many of the younger generation
thinks they have to keep what they have for themself and the only way to
get a head is to take what you can.

I once walked into a dinner and witnessed a man(if you can call him that)
smack the heck out of his 9yr old daughter because she said something
back to him.

I had to interrupt the conversation and make it known I seen what had happened.
He told me to mind my own F***ing business. I told him not to lay another
hand on her. He told me to F...off. What did I do?

I walked back out the door and knocked on a police officers window which
was parked approx 10 yards away an told him what I had seen.

Result: The officer walked in to the establishment, looked at the little girl
and asked the man if he had hit her. His reply was "No"

The officer then asked the girl "Did he hit you?" She replied "Yes, but he's
my dad" The officer then asked her why he hit her and she replied, "Because
he didn't have enough money for what I wanted. He told me I could have
a order of fries and I didn't want it."

Moral, My children come first. I will do with out if they are in need.
There is no way I could sleep at night knowing that my kids are suffering
because I didn't do everything in my power to help them when they needed it.

The difference is, IF THEY NEED IT. NOT IF THEY WANT IT.

Needs and Wants are two totally different things.

I want a lot of things that I have never had before. I strive to get them
although I will postpone that dream to make sure my family is getting
what they need first.

Ok, now I'm going to get what I want...lol

It time for dinner and a few drinks. Hey, the kids and the grandchildren are
doing fine so I've earned it.

[End of what ever it was I was trying to point out]

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Michael,

You did a GOOD job explaining that!

Teach morals.

*****GIVE A REASON*****! In my generation, this was a BIG sticking point with kids. Because I say so, or because that is how it is done just DON'T cut it!

Gain, and ***GIVE*** respect! ANOTHER sticking point!

Have a good relationship, though the steps above DO almost force that!

Concentrate on real NEEDS, and give wants when reasonable, or for treats, etc...

Care for the kids, and don't treat them harsher than you have to, and LET THEM KNOW WHY!

Also, it is best to care for the kids first, then your spouse, and then you. If you do that things will be fair and should help the relationship.

If you could throw in the idea of assimilation with the traditional culture, and work ethic, and get that to sink into the OTHER parents psyche's, things will be MUCH better.

Steve

Steve, It all boils down to the Golden Rule.
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Pretty damn simple yet many can't grasp the concept?
Mostly because it's not taught much anymore.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Revealed, the middle class 'rioters': The aspiring musician, the organic chef and the millionaire's daughter all in the dock accused of looting | Mail Online

The profiles of rioters are coming in now and there are a number of surprises. But think about it, it is not really that surprising because company directors have involved as football hooligans in the past. The fact is that it is a big thrill for many people to riot and steal and this can happen anywhere.

That's one of the main ways to get through to young children, stoop to their level or
below it if you can.(Stoop meaning, look up or at eye level. NOT DO WHAT THEY DO)

Respect doesn't come from being louder or bigger than them.
It comes from respecting them and being someone they can TRUST/RESPECT.

Life is weird in that respect...lol I think they call what you do and what your receive
KARMA. Yet many don't believe it exists???

Damn the torpedoes, Full speed a head!

Have a Great Day!
Michael

I have only one more question.

Is London still Burning?

I've gone totally OT in the OT and have now lost track of the thread!

Must go back and catch up on the topic.

OP, Sorry for the distraction.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Some parents brought their kids to the riots, and told them to go in and loot.

I wonder what Childrens Services of the UK thinks of that.

Caleb

(According to reports obviously)

Keep Aaron Cutting

read this story if you guys get the chance.

Caleb

If I was living in a country where 10s of millions of dollars of tax payer money was being used to fund a royal wedding which nobody in this day and age should give a crap about while people of the country are suffering from high unemployment and a slow economy... hell, I'd be rioting too.

The violence and looting, which start on Saturday in Tottenham, has also spread to Birmingham, Bristol and Liverpool, Sky News reported Tuesday afternoon, with 300 public arrested and 36 charged so far.There are far too many audience who are getting in the way of the police operation to catch criminal choke and robbery.

I could not believe what I have witnessed in and outside London since last Saturday. It is indeed a sad state of affairs.

While us law abiding warriors are busy trying to make a honest living online, thousands are looting and don't want to work for their money.

On some days, I make a small amount of money in IM and other days nothing at all, but I would never dream of going out there loot, destroy property, destroy other people's livelihoods or destroy my own country.

I stand on the side of peace and righteousness despite not making a fortunate in IM.

sorry to hear this bad news.... I was thinking that EPL was about to start, but I think it'll be delayed....

I was reading this post with interest, thinking yet again how glad I am it never happened in Scotland, those images are hearbreaking and for the people who lost everything it must be devestating. These people kids or not made a choice circumstances or not its still a choice to be thug or not. The reporting of the riots have caused a bit of anger here in Scotland as they have (until recently) been classed as UK wide riots and with all due respect its not.There has been no trouble in Scotland and at a time when tourism here is thriving a lot of people including the first minister took exception to this and worried it would damage Scotland repution and while I will admit it angered me when they descirbed it as Uk wide that is not really a big issue for now its how all those people piece thier lives back together

I think that what happened was one group was angry about the shooting, used it as an excuse to loot/destroy, and the rest joined in. You KNOW that is true to a degree since most had no CLUE a to a reason. That doesn't make it any better, but it helps to explain it a bit.

And I, for one, am not being nationalistic. Maybe close to half the people on this forum speak a dialect of english that is not american. MOST are probably british, but there is irish, australian, new zealand, etc... We OFTEN get along fine, and disagreements aren't with dialect.

As for sports, I generally stay out of those discussions. It is WELL KNOWN that a lot of soccer matches can be NASTY, and the nastyness bleeds out of the area.

To get back on subject, I KNOW this can be bad! I WAS in the LA area when the rodney king riots broke out. Parts of the area DID look like the problems you have in great britain. In one place that was less than 50 miles away from me, they decided to not let people drive on the street. One truck driver got his head bashed in for driving there! Reginald Denny incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia SURE that was 18-19 years ago, but my memory of it is like it happened yesterday. We had CURFEW! A friend of mine INSISTED on visiting, and INSISTED that we get a pizza. I was afraid we would get arrested or worse. Luckily, the police left us alone. Just my luck, some police decided to get pizza right where we did.

One fire was BLOCKS from where I lived. We were shocked by it, and always wondering if it would hit our area.

So YEAH, I know how you must feel and DO feel for you. If there were ANYTHING I could do I would. The best we can do here is discuss it.

Steve

This is an entitlement society.

The only way to stop it is to turn off the freebies.


Once they realize they won't get food for free they will riot.


They will pillage, loot, steal, and go ape****.


At that point we can start putting them down like rabid dogs.



Legally.

Problem will be solved.

That sounds like a great idea Pete, I have not been outside London in a while.

"It must be very difficult to get your feet firmly planted being called a black chap in one country and a white in another. It makes me realise how hard it must be for you. I've often wondered about the half black/white situation. You are very well balanced and in a position to explain something many simply don't get. I'm really impressed at how you see the world. We should all learn from this."

it was hard at times. the hardest part though was in Nigeria everyone kind of thinks that because you are "white" you must have money. when we moved over there we weren't exactly rich to start with but my dad took everything he worked for and put it into a business. long story shot he lost everything. When people over here talk about being poor and all that again I think to myself they don't know how lucky they are. If you are homeless in Nigeria, there is no gov housing for you, there are no payments from the gov to see you through with even the basics. No free healthcare. So not only was I a white kid, I was a poor white kid, lol.

I had to drop out of high school because of it and I never finished my education. Same thing with my brother and sister. I was able to come back to the uk because a church paid for my ticket back.

Thats why I don't really buy this whole thing when I hear people say they can't make anything of themselves because of the poor community they are in. They simply need the right direction and someone to tell them Gov or no Gov, it's their responsibility to make something of themselves. Nobody owes them anything but themselves. Thats what they need to open their eyes to. With all the info you can learn from the internet these days, what excuses do we really have?

Anyway thats a story for another time over that bbq fish at Pete's house by the sea, lol. I will pm you.

lol, sounds like a good plan. will have to do it soon or we will be having that BBQ fish while it's snowing.

according to reports he wasn't unarmed - he was carrying a loaded gun... what are your sources that are saying different? if he wasn't carrying a gun period - then i would say yeah it was possibly unjust - you dont know the extent of what happened - so its hard to say what was going on... but my understanding from reports he was armed and therefore i have zero sympathy for him he brought his untimely death himself he only has himself to blame... dont get me wrong i do have sympathy for his family and the people that cared for him... tough for them that he choose the path he did...

when you carry a loaded gun - you do that for one reason and one reason only... to shoot it... its against the law to have guns in the UK in the manner that he had one...

he got shot and died? so what? did i say he deserved to die? he took his chances and he lost... had the police not taken him down when they did - you could be reading the news right now that 8 cops got killed... or an innocent family got shot accidentally by a stray bullet, could be someone you cared for - as far as i am concerned thats one less gun off the street, one less person who had the mentality to think its ok to have a gun on the streets of the UK and probably the mentality that its ok to use it if he had too...

i applaud you for suggesting a solution though...

murder by definition is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another - i doubt this was pre-meditated...

as i keep saying am sure it could have all been avoided - i doubt the cop that shot the guy is actually jumping for joy right now or happy about the way all this turned out with the rioting and other people dying unnecessarily...

tell me this then - what changed?

I remember +25 years ago when i as kid we where *gasp* scared of the police!

I remember actually wanting to be a cop as a kid? i used to love watching "The Bill" when i was at school! lol

so what happened? why the total lack of respect for the police over the past 25yrs?

15 and out on the streets at 2:00 am....That's what's wrong with society. Police do not go around framing people. What a load OF B*S* you are spouting.

Seriously were you one of the rioters? You sound like you hate the police no matter what...

Its a sad story and all the things that all of us have read or watched that is happening in london is really a sad one adn people who are involved in it must be ashamed of their selves. I dont why sometimes humeans became more dangerous than animals.

Jasper,

Just to amplify what you said. I don't speak any non human language, but I generally understand animals and will come to THEIR defense. Frankly I HATE it when people compare such humans to animals. Like you said, it is WORSE!

Steve

I don't care about social issues, unemployment, racial divide, a hatred towards the law etc.
What these *******s did is inexcusable and they need a lot more than a slap on the wrist.
Any of these scumbags involved, need to be evicted from the council flats and stuck in hostels and if they get out of line again, 3 years incarceration. That goes for the parents for some of the minors involved as well. How many people from Somalia or Nigeria or any other place in the world where people really live in poverty would give their right arm to have even a fraction of what these lazy scumbags own? This is the way they show their gratitude, by smashing up shops and looting? They make me sick to the stomach. I was reading something the other day about food stamps in the States. Apparently, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program allows lazy arses to eat better than a lot of working class people. The only reason we haven't seen the kind of **** that went down in England is because the cops in the States carry firearms. And so it should be.

the little twunt that got shot by the cops was a known gang banger and a menace to society. Notice how the vast majority of gang bangers were blacks (no, I am not racist). It was just a matter of one of their homies getting smoked by the old bill and they were seeking revenge. Again, this is by no means meant to be offensive toward colored people, this is a social, cultural thing. They look up to ****bags like Mark Duggan. Dr Dre and 50 cent have a lot to answer for. Half of these morons can't even speak properly and the other half doesn't even know who the prime minister is.

Again, this is by no means meant to be offensive in any way towards black people. My wife is Ecuadorian and dark skinned and we have discussed the riots in England at great length and we both agree that the black communities in the U.K and the U.S need to get their act together.

I was going to say more, but a white in the US, could be shot by a WHITE cop for merely getting out of a car holding a gun. You have to treat the cops like you would with a mother bear around cubs. Present as little a perceived threat as possible. Color really does NOT matter.

Steve

Who is behind all this disaster ?

Did anyone see the interview with a guy on the news who was ranting as his girlfriend had just been sent down for a month for looting. He was arguing she had a young child and how could they make her leave her. Wonder if she thought about the kid when she was looting all and sundry? Unfortunately I think that proves that there is a growing number of brits that play the blame game. Does my head in. Action and consequences!

Rich

I was at the hair dressers today and she was going on about how they were being to harsh and they should all just do community service.

I have never had to try so hard to contain myself. this whole idea that prison does not work, maybe it does not but one thing is for sure community service does not either. We have been dishing out the whole community service thing for how many years now ? .... and this is the end result, a generation that have no fear of the law, or anything else.

I cannot think of any other country in the world that would see people who committed such acts, go and sweep the street for a few days.

You know bravo... If you look at the actual word, ALL it means is NO RULE!

AN=NO
ARCH=RULED
IST=ONE

So like britain used to be a monarchy which is rule by one.

So they VERY evolution of that word shows the thought process behind this garbage!

ANARCHIST=One not ruled <<TRUE
One that is not ruled=lack of order <<debatable
lack of order=DESTRUCTION/HATRED/RULE by the ONE <<the problem today!

SO ANARCHIST=Rule by the ONE! NOT just ONE person as in a monarchy, but absolute rule by each and every one. Of course all want to rule, since that is the point, and you have things like riots. I wonder if they ever stop to think that almost every group is a COLLECTION of groups! So if they riot against another group, they may find themselves rioting against one another!

Steve

This is really making me sick now.

I really Don't know why they are spoiling my and their own country.

However,This really is going to have a large impact.

Just Hope That It will be stopped soon.

highhopes.

Sometimes I look up, etc... In some scifi flicks, and like "the monsters are due on maple street", such behaviour was claimed to peg you as an alien.

I once STOLE a water hose! WHY? Because MINE was stolen from the SAME place! It had an unusual color, unusual pattern, was of a specific size, and had stains on it from a time I spilled some ferrous sulfate on it after etching some boards. So WHAT are the chances of two hoses looking the same, though unusual and randomly colored by their owners, and being i the same place? STILL, it LOOKED like I stole it, and I later heard the manager telling someone that someone stole such a hose. The AUDACITY!

Sometimes cameras don't tell the whole tale!

Steve

Any revolution or protest of a violent nature is not really revolution at all.. but rather a coup d'etat in disguise.

I am against violence for any reason. This is not the way to accomplish things in civilized society, but rather an attempt to degrade such society to anarchy so thugs can take control and govern with force.

Never trade your freedom for security. Unfortunately the British have already done so by legislating against the Right to Bear Arms that we enjoy here in the USA. All in the name of security.

I bet you brits don't feel so secure now! Who will protect you when rioters break into yuor homes? The police will be a day late and dollar short.

Luckily, Amazon.com has seen 300% increase in baseball bat sales from the UK - unfortunately if the rioters have guns and you have a bat.. you will lose!

Only rely on yourself for protection, never a government!

Really sad to hear that. Hope they back to normal soon.

It is really so terrible to see such kind of scene. Hope London can get back its original peace soon.Britain gov should do something effective to stop this!

it all boils down to the failure of government in talking with youth

Hoping things will be cool and peace next month as im going to london visit my aunt ,hoping she'll be fine in that moment

Feel sad about what is happening all over the world. Aside from this, lot of cases like kidnapping, killing innocent people, flooding and other unexpected incidents were exposed..This could be a sign that we all need to go back to HIM and repent..i wish everybody will realize

[DELETED]

This isn't the case. it is only the hardened criminals who get hold of firearms, and even then, they're not that easy to get a hold of. To say that a criminal is likely to have a gun is a complete misnomer.