Why bitcoin needs to become #1 right now

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The problem with debit/credit cards is their tied to a horribly broken system. Users can chargeback up to 6 months after purchase...yeah I said 6 months, and there's really nothing you can do short of submit anything to help your case, if the company even bothers to ask you, even then the chances of you winning are slim. This is a serious problem for anyone selling anything, it can get your accounts locked(such as paypal) it can hurt your reputation and business and it can make you lose product, and tons of money.

Enters bitcoin

if you're not familiar with bitcoin let me summarize, it's a genius invention by an unknown individual who claims to be japanese. It's a p2p virtual currency that's not tied to any particular real life currency, like USD etc...however there are plenty of "exchange" sites that let you convert bitcoins to USD or whatever else and vis versa, and there are also plenty of sites that accept bitcoin directly for just about every product and service you can imagine. The beautiful thing about this currency is it's not centralized, no single entity controls it(hence the p2p aspect), and the user account records(all transactions are public and anonymous) and kept honest through the genius of encryption and math in general. The best part is it's impossible to do a charge back, and everything's open source, there are no "transfer fee's", you can have unlimited "accounts", in fact making a new one takes a single button click, etc... there's a lot of other benefits but this needs to be #1 right now. Screw paypal and their garbage policies, and all other systems that have fee's and other non-sense.

If anyone already accepts bitcoins for their business please share your experience thus far.
#bitcoin
  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
    Banned
    This sounds interesting. What is the exchange rate for bitcoins virtual currency for USD? What kind of products are most commonly sold using their system?
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Goss
    Some articles that'll give anybody a grounded, realistic understanding of this soon-to-fade renegade currency idea:

    "bitcoin" - The Wealth Vault
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    check out http://bitcoin.org/,http://bitcoin.org/about.html the two top exchange sites are mtgox.com and tradehill.com. You can buy literally just about anything with bitcoins directly too, from physical goods(amazon stuff, etc...) to virtual(hosting etc...) just have to find sites selling them, theres a big list somewhere, will have to find it. The exchange rates are very cheap, it depends on what people sell them for because bitcoins grow in value over time, that's the way the system works see bitcoins are made through people using GPU's to pump out blockchains, every one that is made it makes it that much harder to make another, so years ago people who first got on bitcoins made them with their own pc...and now adays last time I checked 1 bitcoin is worth $15 on average, and to generate a bitcoin you need tons of people with GPU's(graphic cards, they're much faster for this than CPU, and use much less energy). So you can either use your hardware to get on that, or buy with money, theres a limit to total number of bitcoins that will ever be made is 20 million something, that doesn't sound like a lot but remember the math needed to make new ones increases tremendously so will take tons of years. Also bitcoin isn't limited to just 1 you can have .0001 bitcoin etc...not trying to confuse you, the point of this is it's very very well designed, and prevents global, permante inflation which is important. The CPU power the community contributes to make bitcoins makes it near impossible for hackers to manipulate anything, even the government...worse they could do is try and use super computers which may make a temporary crash.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    You say "amazon stuff" but does amazon.com even accept bitcoins?

    I'm gonna say the idea is intriguing, but I don't think it's really accepted enough for someone to transition their whole business to only be accepting bitcoins.

    Not really convinced about your proposal, one bit.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      You say "amazon stuff" but does amazon.com even accept bitcoins?

      I'm gonna say the idea is intriguing, but I don't think it's really accepted enough for someone to transition their whole business to only be accepting bitcoins.

      Not really convinced about your proposal, one bit.
      Not amazon directly no, see the only issue with bitcoin is big companies are scared about the legality of it, it's been around for years and i'd imagine when it gets big enough to threaten banks they're going to use all the power they have to shut it down, but as it stands there is nothing that says it's illegal. As long as you pay taxes I don't see why the gov would care, short of lack of control, which yeah, in itself could be why they may not like it. But then again Tor still exist? while not the same, is still similar concept(bitcoin uses Tor for boot strapping, connects to ircd through it to get some inital bitcoin users)
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      • Profile picture of the author Excel Fields
        Interesting thread, but I think the lack of ability to "police/regulate" something of this nature would be the primary reason that the "establishment" will kill this idea just like they did napster.

        And on the flip side, what if someone is taken advantage of/scammed
        and there's no option for recourse? I'll pass!
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

    if you're not familiar with bitcoin let me summarize, it's some crap made up by an unknown individual who claims to be japanese. It's a p2p virtual currency that's not tied to anything however there are plenty of "exchange" sites that let you convert bitcoins to USD or whatever else and vis versa, and there are also plenty of sites that accept bitcoin directly for drugs
    Fixed that for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Fixed that for you.
      Nice. Typical quality post from you, i'm sure someone on this forum benefits from all your negative contributions, i'm not sure how, but whatever. Good day.
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      • Profile picture of the author FredJones
        Unless you are talking about some kind of a global currency, there's no point in discussing Bitcoins or any other form of coins. And any currency ultimately needs to boil down to hard, fixed, globalizable cash unless you want the entire 7-7.5 billion of people on Earth to understand, digest and convert to these coins, and then there are the nations and continents and infinite deals dealing cold hard cash that need to be fixed and so on... No, with such huge chaos in humanity, its not that easy, no matter whether you feel the need or not. I am not saying that you don't need it, I am saying that the whole world will not want it now and hence this is not going to fly.
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by FredJones View Post

          Unless you are talking about some kind of a global currency, there's no point in discussing Bitcoins or any other form of coins. And any currency ultimately needs to boil down to hard, fixed, globalizable cash unless you want the entire 7-7.5 billion of people on Earth to understand, digest and convert to these coins, and then there are the nations and continents and infinite deals dealing cold hard cash that need to be fixed and so on... No, with such huge chaos in humanity, its not that easy, no matter whether you feel the need or not. I am not saying that you don't need it, I am saying that the whole world will not want it now and hence this is not going to fly.
          That's the point of exchange companies you can convert it to any currency you want! It really has no borders, no single entity calling the shots or dictating how or what it does. USD has been off the gold standard a very long time, which means it's backed by absolutely nothing...
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          • Profile picture of the author Aubaine
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            USD has been off the gold standard a very long time, which means it's backed by absolutely nothing...
            Except the US government. eeek!
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            An antonym for ambitious is 'easy'.

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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The big problem is simple - customers will not use it to buy. I'm sure there are devotees of the system and there may be locales where the system makes sense (no credit cards or paypal available).

        Sellers complain about paypal endlessly here (for some reason, they are shocked an online service would charge a fee). They keep using Paypal - because buyers trust it. Buyers trust their own credit cards and debit cards, too.

        If a potential buyer learns he must do a currency exchange to a currency not backed by anything or regulated by anyone - before he can buy an item he wants...he'll just move on to the next seller.

        EDIT: This answer is in the context of the thread - preventing chargebacks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Bitcoin Directory - Sites accepting Bitcoin as payment method

          I found the "amazon" link - you can buy gift cards to use on amazon. In the U.S., at least, you can buy amazon gift cards at most local stores. Maybe others places in the world, you can't.

          kay
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          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

          I'm going to work on being less condescending
          (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          The big problem is simple - customers will not use it to buy. I'm sure there are devotees of the system and there may be locales where the system makes sense (no credit cards or paypal available).

          Sellers complain about paypal endlessly here (for some reason, they are shocked an online service would charge a fee). They keep using Paypal - because buyers trust it. Buyers trust their own credit cards and debit cards, too.

          If a potential buyer learns he must do a currency exchange to a currency not backed by anything or regulated by anyone - before he can buy an item he wants...he'll just move on to the next seller.

          EDIT: This answer is in the context of the thread - preventing chargebacks.
          That's their problem then, they're conditioned and confused. You talk about "regulated", tell me, what's paypal regulated by? Absolutely nothing, that's why they get away with things a real regulated bank never could. Also Bitcoin works for both parties, it's anonymous, so the seller doesn't have all your info, it's secure, and going in you understand there are no chargebacks, no paypal going into your bank account and stealing your funds, no company overcharging you, no one locking/limiting your account, no transfer fees, no overdraft fees, no company auto charging you. Trust me it works for both parties, it's very convient and is MORE secure then everything out there because it removes the power from any one group and prevents abusers. By the way like I said USD isn't backed by anything, short of thin air.

          also you DO have protections, like I said all transactions are public, just anonymous you can show you sent whatever address whatever coins and it's for all to see, you can't force them to give it back, but you can tell people about it, and reptutation is a very valuable thing when it comes to businesses, look at ebay, you give a bad rating it can ruin a business.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Typical quality post from you
        If you want me to stop calling your ideas stupid, stop posting stupid ideas.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          If you want me to stop calling your ideas stupid, stop posting stupid ideas.

          LOL Thanks Caliban.

          Cashtree: Could you bring yourself to put blank lines between some of your sentences? It would make it easier for us old folks with waning eyesight to better absorb your attempts to change the world.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          If you want me to stop calling your ideas stupid, stop posting stupid ideas.
          Caliban,

          It's not a stupid idea. Anybody not currently looking for an alternative to the US dollar has their head buried in the sand.

          Maybe the execution of the idea might not be to many people's liking but, hey, not every new business idea becomes a Google or an Apple.

          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            It's not a stupid idea. Anybody not currently looking for an alternative to the US dollar...
            This is called "The Politician's Fallacy."
            1. Something must be done.

            2. This is something.

            3. Therefore, we must do it.
            What needs an alternative is not the US Dollar, but fiat currency in general. All currency should be backed by legitimate assets of definite value; this is, at the most basic level, what a currency is. The little bits of metal and pieces of paper are representative of a promise to replace them with tangible, valuable assets. Historically, we identify what those assets are: the United Kingdom issued notes backed by silver, and the United States issued notes backed by gold.

            What is happening to the world economy today is the direct result of decoupling the currency from the real tangible assets they represent. Today, a dollar bill does not represent a promise by the United States Treasury to provide you a quantity of gold worth one dollar, the value of which is established by independent worldwide authorities.

            Instead, that dollar bill represents a promise by the United States Treasury to give you something worth one dollar. We don't know what. When you bring us a dollar, we'll give you... um... we'll think of something.

            Now, enter the bitcoin.

            It's the same damn thing.

            It does not represent any real tangible asset, and never has. It is worthless. It has not even come from anyone with credible authority in economics or finance: it is from some Japanese guy. Basically, every bitcoin in existence amounts to "some Japanese guy promised me this is worth something." The credibility people assign to it is not making it a viable alternative to other world currencies.

            In fact, it should be scaring the living crap out of you, because basically some guy in a basement somewhere created his own currency and people are using it. That's how economically stupid and financially irresponsible the world population has become - they have zero faith in their own elected officials, but then they turn around and are totally ready to trust some Japanese guy.

            And then they call me stupid for trusting the US Dollar. Look, fundamentally, this is a world problem and the world will find a way to resolve it. There is too much real value in the United States for the dollar to become truly worthless. And if you look around the world, there are a dozen or more first-world governments in far more serious financial trouble than the United States.

            We're not some primary offender. We're just part of a massive worldwide problem that will be solved with a worldwide solution, probably along the same lines as the Berne convention on copyright (also a world problem which the world came together and resolved), and in the grand scheme of things it will barely be a blip in history.
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Caliban,

              Don't go off half-cocked.

              I didn't say it was THE solution.

              The dollar is not going to recover. The Fed is going to keep printing like there is no tomorrow. This week a lot of headless chickens fled to the 'security' of the dollar and US treasury bonds.

              Are "advanced" economies going to return to the gold standard?

              When Nixon abandoned it in 1971 it was already a ponzi scheme

              The Great American Disaster: How Much Gold Remains In Fort Knox? by Chris Weber

              At a price of $1,600 per ounce, the US would need 9,231,863,351 ounces of gold just to cover the current national debt.

              Maybe Bitcoin is not the solution but local schemes where you know the people you are dealing with could proliferate. That, and a return to more bartering.


              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                Maybe Bitcoin is not the solution but local schemes where you know the people you are dealing with could proliferate. That, and a return to more bartering.


                Martin

                Maybe I can send you some chickens in the mail the next time I come across one of your sales pages?

                So what is your going rate? How many chickens will it cost me to buy what you are selling?

                :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          If you want me to stop calling your ideas stupid, stop posting stupid ideas.
          No offense brother,
          but just because you don't agree, doesn't make an idea stupid.

          There is a big realm out there- gaming especially in the Asian (think China) community where this kind of ideas flourish. I wouldn't be too fast to pass judgements on it.

          "If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it."
          ~Albert Einstein

          p/s- And i dont think he is posting because he wanted your personal opinion, he wanted to create a discussion and share his ideas with us. Afterall, this is "Main Discussion Forum". For that, I think cashtree should be commended.

          "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas."
          ~George Bernard Shaw


          Now, that aside:
          I do think that virtual currency has a big biz model especially. The idea is actually quite popular with Asian countries.

          In fact, they even planned an ambitious "virtual currency hub" by buying over Friendster way back years ago.. the idea failed as far as i know, but there is a lot of popular offshoots of this out there.

          I am predicting as always this will be popular among online gamers, but this probably need a significant shift to push to the masses.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

            p/s- And i dont think he is posting because he wanted your personal opinion, he wanted to create a discussion and share his ideas with us. Afterall, this is "Main Discussion Forum". For that, I think cashtree should be commended.

            You may very well be right.

            He doesn't want Caliban's opinion, and Cashtree has shown a tendency to angrily reject the opinion of anyone who disagrees with his own.

            In a "'Discussion Forum", people share their opinions all the time. All "discussions" include the opinions of many people, and people wrestle with others to influence a change in opinion of the other party.

            And for the record, any conversation with only one point of view is actually a "lecture", rather than a "discussion".

            The fact that both of you insist that this is a "Discussion Forum", then tell Caliban that you don't want "his opinion" makes you fairly normal...

            A lot of people get freaked out when Caliban speaks... LOL

            But whether you like his opinion or not, he is entitled to share it with anyone who desires to create a discussion in this forum.

            Like it or not... This is MY opinion...
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            • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              You may very well be right.

              He doesn't want Caliban's opinion, and Cashtree has shown a tendency to angrily reject the opinion of anyone who disagrees with his own.

              In a "'Discussion Forum", people share their opinions all the time. All "discussions" include the opinions of many people, and people wrestle with others to influence a change in opinion of the other party.

              And for the record, any conversation with only one point of view is actually a "lecture", rather than a "discussion".

              The fact that both of you insist that this is a "Discussion Forum", then tell Caliban that you don't want "his opinion" makes you fairly normal...

              A lot of people get freaked out when Caliban speaks... LOL

              But whether you like his opinion or not, he is entitled to share it with anyone who desires to create a discussion in this forum.
              Hi tpw

              i am cool with cdarlock posting.. i do respect his rights to voice out his views, and i do agree to some of his points that he brought after my earlier post.. Like we all know, this is a discussion forum and all of us are here to discuss ideas.

              I just don't agree to calling people stupid for posting a thread..

              Discussion should be rational and on facts.. PERIOD. I thought cdarklock was pushing the boundary with his earlier comment.

              That was my opinion, and i posted that.. which he then shown by posting a more lengthier factual post- which i think is cool :-)

              That's all.

              I rest my case (did enough damage here to bring this out of topic), and i am heading to OT after this
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              Whats the latest movie you watched? Anything good?

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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                If you want me to stop calling your ideas stupid, stop posting stupid ideas.
                Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

                I just don't agree to calling people stupid for posting a thread..

                But Caliban did not call the OP stupid.

                In essence, he said, "his ideas were stupid."

                It is a subtle difference that allows one to be critical, without being nasty.

                It would be like me saying "the football team is losing", rather than calling the football team a "bunch of losers."
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                • Profile picture of the author anton343
                  Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                  But Caliban did not call the OP stupid.

                  In essence, he said, "his ideas were stupid."

                  It is a subtle difference that allows one to be critical, without being nasty.

                  It would be like me saying "the football team is losing", rather than calling the football team a "bunch of losers."

                  If you split any more hairs you'll have none left lol
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                  • Profile picture of the author tpw
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    But Caliban did not call the OP stupid.

                    In essence, he said, "his ideas were stupid."

                    It is a subtle difference that allows one to be critical, without being nasty.

                    It would be like me saying "the football team is losing", rather than calling the football team a "bunch of losers."
                    Originally Posted by anton343 View Post

                    If you split any more hairs you'll have none left lol

                    I am surprised that so many people see this as nothing more than "splitting hairs".

                    Smart people sometimes do dumb things.

                    And dumb people sometimes do smart things.

                    Likewise, some otherwise smart people occasionally have stupid ideas.

                    And some otherwise dumb people occasionally have brilliant ideas.

                    Smart people are not made dumb by doing dumb things, nor are they made dumb by having dumb ideas.

                    And dumb people are not made smart by doing smart things or having brilliant ideas.

                    Smart is still smart, and dumb is still dumb. Yet people of all persuasions can do and think in ways that are contrary to their normal selves.

                    If I have a dumb/stupid idea, does that make me suddenly stupid?

                    LOL

                    If you say so... :rolleyes:
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      If I have a dumb/stupid idea, does that make me suddenly stupid?
                      According to my wife, apparently it does...

                      ~Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Fixed that for you.
      Yes, right now bitcoin is primarily used for illegal or "grey hat" purchases such as drugs, porn or other "unsavoury" products where the purchaser wishes to remain annonymous.

      As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin and give up the consumer protection of a Credit Card or PayPal?

      Mahlon
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      • Profile picture of the author onSubie
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        Did you just make that up because it sounded good?

        Or do you have proof?
        I saw a documentary about online drug sales and how easy it is to order them. It went through how the buyers and sellers remain anonymous and keep an arms-length relationship on both ends of the transaction. I can't recall the drug sales website or the program I was watching (20/20 or 60 Minutes probably) but I could search around to refresh my memory.

        The drug website is protected by a TOR network. Users connect anonymously using a TOR setup and pay with bitcoin.

        In any case, I still don't know why I, as a consumer, would want to give up the protection offered by more legitimate payment services.

        Can you tell me how I get an advantage using bitcoin as a buyer? No refunds if I'm scammed. No traceability of transactions. The seller remains anonymous and protected from me if I have a complaint or want a refund.

        I could Google around to find the exact site/program but I'm zonked in my K-Hole right now....

        Mahlon

        EDIT: Without going to Google, this is from earlier in this thread:

        http://gawker.com/5805928/the-underg...rug-imaginable
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          Yes, I agree it is used for drugs but so are all currencies. My beef was with the use of the word "primary". It cannot be proven that bitcoin is "primarily" used for drugs.

          Nor can it be proved that it is not used "primarily" for drugs.

          With all of its anonymity, it is very hard to say exactly what it is used for... :p
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          It cannot be proven that bitcoin is "primarily" used for drugs.
          Pro tip:

          Innocent people say "that is not true."

          Guilty people say "you can't prove that."

          In addition, liars like to use the passive voice. When they justify their line of total BS about what happened, they don't say "I saw this," they say "this was seen" so they aren't held accountable for it later.

          That habit eventually makes its way into all their speech patterns, so nobody does anything; instead things are done.

          This is a convenient way to remove the offending party from discussions of Bad Things. If drugs are bought with bitcoins, that is just this thing that happened. But when people buy drugs with bitcoins, then we have a currency used by drug addicts. Similarly, when people sell drugs for bitcoins, we have a currency used by drug dealers.

          The blunt reality is that bitcoins operate in a legal minefield, and the only people using them with any real frequency are people doing things they can't do as easily with conventional currency.

          Let's try a little thought experiment. Imagine that you go to your favourite grocery store's website and discover that they now accept delivery orders paid with bitcoins. You have previously had groceries delivered on a rather frequent basis, so this is a service you already use - but now they accept bitcoins.


          Sounds great, right? You'd jump right on that, wouldn't you?

          Now imagine that you go to your favourite grocery store's website and discover that they now accept delivery orders paid with Swiss francs. You have previously had groceries delivered on a rather frequent basis, so this is a service you already use - but now they accept Swiss francs.

          WTF do you care? How does this in any way make your life easier?

          "Wow, yesterday, I could only order groceries in US dollars. But today, I can use Swiss francs. Why, I am going to go exchange some money for Swiss francs right now, so I can buy groceries with Swiss francs. In fact, I'm going to start keeping Swiss francs around all the time, just in case other people start letting me buy stuff with Swiss francs. Why, if enough people let me use Swiss francs, I may never need to use US dollars again. And besides, I can always get my Swiss francs exchanged back to US dollars if I need to shop somewhere that doesn't take them."

          Seriously? Dude, if this is the way you think, you are more than just aware of bitcoins being used to buy drugs.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Yeah, as a buyer I would never use something that doesn't protect my purchase - especially on the internet!

    I know if I go down to my local store and hand over cash I at least have some recourse when they don't deliver on what was bought. (Whether that be a confrontation or through government bodies put in place to protect local consumers.) If I use a made-up currency that markets no chargebacks as a feature then how do I get my money back when I don't get what I paid for? The safety net of a Mastercard of Visa credit card is one of the resons people are now happy to buy online.

    What happens when this mysterious Japanese man disappears and takes his system with him? As a seller I like the security of working with a company that has proven over many years that they aren't going to run away with my cash.

    I have read a bit on Bartercard before but have only come across a handful of businesses that promote it. They are great ideas in theory but unless a whole lot of people on both sides of the counter jump onto the bandwagon then it is a risky game.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dash Evra
    Originally Posted by cashtree View Post


    The best part is it's impossible to do a charge back.
    So, basically a merchant can sell me a blank ebook and get away with it clean. No way in hell this type of system will be popular. The buyers don't sound like they would have any type of protection. Who in their right mind would trust someone using that system over the likes of Paypal or CC payments? I am not saying the system we currently have is perfect, but it sure as hell sounds better than this bitcoin $#!t

    In every business, there are always a small percentage of buyers who won't pay their bills, try to get refund etc... It's just one of the cost of doing business.
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  • Profile picture of the author zachary0611
    Check this out people are actually printing their own currency I thought this was illegal but I guess not
    How to Print Your Own Money, Build Community & Not Get Arrested by the Feds : TreeHugger
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      That's their problem then, they're conditioned and confused.
      I'm not interested in the arguments for/against paypal, for/again US currency...and if you aren't selling to anyone then you would be using bitcoin to buy (somewhere) or to "invest". That's up to you.

      You complained about chargebacks - that would indicate you have something you are selling. Calling potential buyers conditioned and confused might give you a crusade - but it won't get sales. Unless, of course, you are selling bitcoin in one way or another.

      I just want to have both sides on the table so new marketers reading this thraed won't think this is a common payment method when you are selling something online.

      kay
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by zachary0611 View Post

      Check this out people are actually printing their own currency I thought this was illegal but I guess not
      How to Print Your Own Money, Build Community & Not Get Arrested by the Feds : TreeHugger
      It's not illegal, many companies like walt disney world has their "own money" though on it states it's not legal tender outside of their theme park. There's a thread about bitcoin and this, hold on

      https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18087.20
      https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6000.0

      "Technically, and legally, bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency. Also, bitcoins aren't really "coined" by anyone, not even virtually. They are discovered."
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      • Profile picture of the author Don Luis
        Banned
        Virtual currency? Yikes, the end of the world is really near...
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    I never said it was common, in fact that's why I briefly explained what it was(if it was common I wouldn't need to do that), and why it should be more popular. Don't get me wrong it is popular, but not paypal level popular. Also I understand as a business my job is to be nice, in fact the worse thing you can do is be rude to customers, I strongly believe in over the top kindness. Paypal being as big as they are, don't understand that concept, and as a business owner and as a consumer I just really can not stand them.And I can appreciate the genius of bitcoin and why it should be more mainstream and globally accepted, you, from your comments sound afraid of it, afraid that without someone overseeing it, protecting you, you're at risk. I tell you what risk is, paypal having any control over your business what so ever. When they lock all your funds and force you to send ridiculous amount of info to unlock it(which realistically could take months) then you'll understand. Try calling them too, after 20 mins of robots tell the person at the other end the situation, see how they treat you, see how fast your problem is resolved, even if it was a accident on their part...months, i'm telling you, horrible company. That's not security, not in my eyes, that's being conditioned to think they have your back, when in reality it's further from the truth. Does every single person that uses paypal have problems? ofcourse not, they're not stupid, if they did that then they couldn't have things swept under the wrong so easy. Anyway it's not just paypal, it's the foundation of what paypal stands for, and what they can do, even chargebacks that go behind paypal are a problem, it's users abusing a system that's not meant for that, it's meant for that. Bitcoin prevents abuse at its core. Can you have bitcoins stolen? sure, they're kept in a single file on your computer, but that's not bitcoins fault, that's you not protecting your money.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I'll take bitcoin seriously when I can buy groceries and fill up my car with gas with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Bratcher
    Virtual currencies have come and gone before. BitCoin is the current popular system. Even though it is established and trusted by many, it is inherently risky to invest money in. My advice would be to keep your real money out for now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wide
    Agree with sbucciarel.

    From wikipedia:
    Bitcoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    • During early June 2011, there have been media reports of even more individuals purchasing "mining rigs", hardware-customized computers specifically dedicated to generate bitcoin hashes based on GPU, following the rise in Bitcoin prices in the past months.[70]
    • On 19 June 2011, Bitcoin prices against the USD remained high, despite a security breach of the Mt. Gox Bitcoin Exchange, which notably caused the leaking of usernames, emails and MD5 hashed passwords of over 60,000 users onto the Web. A majority of those passwords were also salted. Passwords that were not salted had not been used recently. The price of a Bitcoin briefly dropped to $0.01 on the Mt. Gox exchange (but remained unaffected on other exchanges) after a hacker allegedly used credentials from a Mt. Gox auditor's compromised computer to illegally transfer a large number of Bitcoins to himself and sell them all, creating a massive "ask" order at any price. Within minutes the price rebounded to over $15 before Mt. Gox shut down their exchange and canceled all trades that happened during the hacking period.[71] The exchange rate of Bitcoins quickly returned to near pre-crash values.[72][73][74][75]
    • July 26, 2011, Bitomat re-opened after being unavailable for 5 days with the message that they had lost all funds on site after rebooting their Amazon EC2 instance.[76][77]
    • August 5, 2011, MyBitcoin issued a statement that they had been compromised and lost 49% of their user's funds.[78]
    • September 9, 2011, people from Something Awful's forum hacked into the Bitcointalk forums, stole the password hash, and injected code to alter the site into a Cosbycoin (successor cryptocurrency) forum complete with gags.[79][8

    I'm going to stay far far away from bitcoints, at least for professional use.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Have to chime in here on this one because I some pretty serious experience in this particular area (like 25+ years actually). Bitcoins, whether a great idea or a stupid one, is going to run into serious issues very soon simply due to the anonymous side of the system and here is why: since 9/11, there has been a very steep increase in the documentation required to verify the identities of people & businesses making international money transfers. All money movement falls under various regs grouped together loosely under the popular term of "KYCC" - Know Your Customer.

    The reason behind the regs is to stop the flow of funding for terrorists groups, money laundering etc.

    I was the keynote speaker at an international payments conference in South America a few years ago - and was seriously harassed from the audience by the Florida Dr that founded the first EGold company when I stated that these types of companies and the 'traders' that were selling the 'EGold' were going to be closed down due to the fact that these companies business models were going to attract the wrong type of 'customer'. He is now under house arrest, and trying to figure out where he went wrong....I am still considered an expert in the international payments industry. Go figure....

    The bottom line is that 'anonymous' and 'money' simply don't play well together in today's world. It's not the fault of BitCoin or EGold or any of the other similar concepts - but they do inevitably attract the wrong people to use the system - and that leads to the intervention of law enforcement worldwide.

    It's a different world today - and virtually every penny moved online is tracked in one way or another.

    Melody
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      he wanted to create a discussion and share his ideas with us.
      If that were the case he would have discussed the problems of this payment method and debated alternate opinions. He would have acknowledged the problems of getting customers to use an unknown payment method - instead of inferring customers were stupid.

      The OP is arguing "for" Bitcoin and using the thread as a vehicle to complain about Paypal.

      If you look for Bitcoin what you find is a system feeding on itself. Results are about the value, currency exchange and hoarding/trading of Bitcoin. Merchants "accepting" are listed as Bitcoin merchants rather than a list of known sellers.

      As Melody said, anonymous and money do not relate well. Any payment system that is going to work will have to be trusted and reputable....and backed by something more than a guy in Japan.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    There's a pretty good article about BitCoin here...

    An Emerging Free Market Currency

    I'm still a little confused about how exactly it works. But it is an intriguing idea.

    Colm
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      After all the crap regarding e-gold I think i'll pass
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
    Banned
    This reminds me of another bartering system with its own currency. I think it was called ITEX.

    Ideas like this do have the potential to work well, but they also can be easily abused, like any capitalist market. Personally, I find virtual currencies to be a very interesting subject, and I'm glad the OP brought BitCoin to my attention, despite all its faults.

    Virtual currency seems to be a growing trend for the Internet. Look at facebook credits; they used to be used for just social games, but now they're being used for physical goods as well.

    It probably won't take off as a mainstream method for purchasing things online, but it's still very interesting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    It IS an intriguing idea but again - given the anonymity of the platform and most governments requiring full transparency in money movement - it's going to be a long tough battle for any system like this to come out on top.

    People think that PayPal doesn't require any ID verification because basically you sign up and can send money to almost anyone - but think again! When you add a bank acct or credit card to the platform - they are validating your identity in multiple ways and they are licensed as a money remitter all over the world, which is a nasty, expensive process to go through.

    BitCoin may make it - but they have a lot of hurdles in front of them at this point.

    Mel
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Melody View Post

      It IS an intriguing idea but again - given the anonymity of the platform and most governments requiring full transparency in money movement - it's going to be a long tough battle for any system like this to come out on top.

      People think that PayPal doesn't require any ID verification because basically you sign up and can send money to almost anyone - but think again! When you add a bank acct or credit card to the platform - they are validating your identity in multiple ways and they are licensed as a money remitter all over the world, which is a nasty, expensive process to go through.

      BitCoin may make it - but they have a lot of hurdles in front of them at this point.

      Mel
      I agree. However, in order for BitCoin to become mainstream, they will need to get more users on a regular basis. I think it would be a good idea for everyone to get an account there and experiment with their system a little. At the very least, it will make an interesting learning experience, and it could possibly lead to new and creative business opportunities or ideas.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Kage
    Hmm, I think there is a movie circulating on the internet with the same idea, making a virtual currency, uncontrollable by anyone(yeah right, last time I checked we were not in an Utopia). Sounds more like monopolization to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Mel, what about cash? That cannot be traced. Bitcoin as an alternative to cash: I don't see any anonymity issues there. As for merchants accepting it, there is no current KYC legislation for businesses transacting with clients. For financial institutions, yes, but that is already enough of a beaurecratic nightmare. It will never be extended to all businesses, large and small. Even if it were, transactions can remain anonymous and no government agencies could ever find out or prove them.

    I agree with Martin on the USD. One can have an issue with fiat currency but one can also have a specific issue with USD in particular. One does not preclude the other.

    As for the comparisons with e-gold, they are not valid. Yes, they are both alternative currencies but so what? The comparison ends there. Guess what, the USD is an alternative currency in Cuba and many other countries too. Something being alternative does not imply anything.

    E-gold was a currency supposedly backed on gold but overwhelmingly used by ponzi schemes. It is rumoured that many similar currencies are actually owned by ponzi scheme owners.

    Bitcoin is nothing of the sort. It is open and transparent. Someone invented it, but the logic and source code is open for all to see. It is totally decentralised. It is not backed on gold. The money supply is predetermined to grow at some specific rate.

    Once again, too many people in this thread who pass judgement on something they have not even researched first.
    Actually - when was the last time you tried to make a large purchase in cash? If not recently - you might be very surprised at the hoops and documentation needed to do so. If you think cash purchases cannot be traced - you are really not very aware of the current regulatory environment. And if you think there are no KYCC regs that affect merchant transactions - you are very wrong.

    I don't have time to get into a lengthy discussion here of the legal issues at play in today's commerce arena - but they are there. You simply may not have run up against them yet due to your business model or the average size of your transaction - but they are there. Just because you are not personally aware of them - does not mean they do not exist. Why do you think PayPal is now going to reporting to a greater degree all transactions to the Feds? You are naive if you think it is just for tax purposes!

    This is an area that I work in every day - and have for more than 25 years. My expertise is in international transactions and money remittance - and trust me - BitCoin is going to have some big legal hurdles ahead of them. They may survive - and I hope they do - but contrary to what you think - I HAVE looked at them very closely, in fact a client is trying to become a BitCoin trading partner - and it's going to be a very challenging task for them to survive.

    I wish them well but it ain't an easy path ahead.

    Melody
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Hmmm....I don't remember on even one occasion being asked for my name and address when handing over cash to a cashier.
      Try going to your bank and depositing $10,000 cash each week and see what happens....

      Mahlon
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Hmmm....I don't remember on even one occasion being asked for my name and address when handing over cash to a cashier.

      Cash transactions may be low in aggregate value but they account for huge volume all over the world. Bitcoins can be used here with no KYC issues whatsoever.

      This is just one possible area.

      Already the world over, consumers are using wave and pay technology with unregistered cards. Just like cash, there is no way to trace these transactions to the consumer. In some countries such as Korea and Japan, people use their smartphones instead.

      It's only a matter of time before such technology is available for bitcoin. Right now, you need an installable program but as soon as a smartphone client becomes available, it will become much easier to use.

      Where are the KYC issues here?

      I don't deny that KYC is important elsewhere but for high volume, low value transactions where cash is currently used, I don't see where KYC comes into play at all. Like I said, I've never been asked for my name and address when spending cash in my entire life! Does the US have laws where a merchant is required to report large cash transactions to the authorities? Because I've never heard of such a law anywhere in the world.
      Chris -

      As I said - you are not dealing yet in the types or size of cash transactions that come under KYC scrutiny. But try paying cash for a car or a home....you will see what I am talking about. And yes - there ARE laws in the US that mandate reporting of cash transactions of a certain size - usually $10,000 but in some circumstances that are deemed 'suspicious' according to certain criteria - the reporting threshold is substantially lower. As mentioned in a previous post - any bank deposit of more than 10j is reported to the Feds - but most banks are also reporting all funds that coming in from a non-US source as well, regardless of the amount.

      Have you tried to wire money - any amount - out of the country lately? The paperwork and ID verification required at both ends is not simply to make sure the right person is picking up the money. The sender and receiver are recorded and tracked to ensure that it is not going to fund terrorism activity.

      Just because you haven't been impacted by such laws - does not mean that they do not exist.

      Again, I deal with them everyday. Personally, I would love to see a company be able to give PayPal a run for their money - but BitCoin is going to be just as attractive to the 'dark side' as the various egold platforms were, mainly because it is an 'alternative' and 'anonymous' payment method.

      I really hope they succeed - I am just saying that they have a very difficult path ahead due to the current regulatory environment.

      Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Chris - You gave the answer yourself previously:

    Bitcoin has far to go. Unfortunately it has been rocked by price volatility, security concerns (wallet stealing, account exchange hacking), manipulation, jealousy over first adopters making huge profits, incredulity that people can "mine" for money and more.

    There is also a dearth of real suppliers and too many people hoarding.
    If online money system has security concerns, infighting, etc - it has no chance that I can see of developing a trustworthy relationship with the public (i.e., buyers).

    I think it's an interesting experiment and topic but I don't understand why you would seem angry when other point out perceived problems. For a company to build a business handling financial transactions, perception is crucial.

    kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      People are jumping to conclusions without even scratching the surface.
      Perception is all that matters in this case. Whether a buyer or seller is right or wrong, if they think that bitcoin seems risky then many won't touch it. Not when they can use methods they are familiar with.

      A marketing campaign to dismiss these myths would be a good start.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        People are jumping to conclusions without even scratching the surface.
        I agree - but that itself is interesting. People who take a quick look at this program aren't finding anything to support. Of course they don't understand ins and outs of it - I don't either. But the OP started off by claiming Bitcoin should become big to limit chargebacks. It makes no sense to advocate using a money transfer system companies don't accept. I can't see why any company would want to accept this unless they are marketing to regions where credit/paypal cannot be used.

        It gives the impression almost of a closed loop. People promoting bitcoin sites and talking about the value and holding "coins" and discussing ways to increase the value of their "coins". It's not being presented by those IN it as a "great payment system" - but as an end in itself.

        I looked hard to find lists of merchants that would accept this currency - and there aren't any. The only ones listed are Bitcoin members selling on Bitcoin sites.

        Probably more to it than that - but that's the face of this program when a new person looks into it. Tells me there's a lot of work/change before this is taken seriously in the mainstream marketplace.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Kay - you really bring up a good point with this one:
    I can't see why any company would want to accept this unless they are marketing to regions where credit/paypal cannot be used.

    This has been the problem with these alternative currency systems to date: they are adopted most readily by businesses and individuals that cannot or do not want to use the 'standard' ecommerce channels.

    The platforms may start out with the best of intent - the Dr. that started EGold really did have a very benign and visionary concept - but in the real world - intent and result are rarely the same.

    Major traditional merchants will be slow to adopt, because, contrary to the posts by others here, these merchants DO have reporting requirements and DO have to abide by certain regulations when it comes to receiving funds from international sources.

    The same 'how do we make money buying and selling EGold/EBullion' frenzy is now surrounding BitCoin - and it is a shame. It gives the platform the aura of a sham Ponzi scheme - and that was not the intent of the founder,

    Unfortunately - reality often means far less than perception.

    Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Your thought experiment is flawed. Just because you or some other person may not find a currency useful does not mean that others won't.
    How did you get that out of comparing bitcoins to Swiss francs? You think Swiss francs are useless?

    That is just hyperbole and you have no evidence for it. It's not a "blunt reality" at all. It's a blunt opinion!
    EFF and Bitcoin | Electronic Frontier Foundation ->

    Bitcoin raises untested legal concerns related to securities law, the Stamp Payments Act, tax evasion, consumer protection and money laundering, among others. And that's just in the U.S.
    Looks like a legal minefield to me.

    You and others make many assumptions about people who use bitcoins. People will always have different reasons to use different currencies or media of exchange.
    Actually, they use a given medium of exchange for one and only one reason:

    It is convenient and suits their purposes.

    And the reality is that bitcoins are less convenient than other currencies. So in order for anyone to select bitcoins as the medium of choice, there must be a compelling suitability of purpose.

    For many perfectly honest people, bitcoins are just plain cool. But that is not a selling point; "use Deutschmarks, they're cool!" is just plain stupid.

    For many dishonest people - of varying types - bitcoins are not subject to all kinds of pesky legislation and control like other currencies are. Because bitcoins are not money.

    For many politically-minded people, the lack of legislation and control is appealing as a principle. They like freedom, and this is a Good Thing and I like those people. But when they get more acceptance of bitcoins, it will cause two things to happen.

    First, bitcoins will no longer be cool because everyone will be using them, so all the people who use them because they're cool will stop.

    Second, bitcoins will become recognised as money and therefore subjected to the same legislation and control they hate.

    Some of us have seen this before. There are five competing standards, so someone smart and driven says "there should be just one standard that unifies all of the competing ones!" and makes it happen - resulting, not in his wonderful dream of one unified standard, but in six competing standards... DUMBASS.

    (Not you, the dumbass who made the sixth standard.)

    Basically, this is the same crap. "There are too many of these and they all suck. Let's make a new one. It should work exactly like the rest of them."

    -> DERP <-

    Here's a tip, okay? When you want to solve the problems in a system, don't make something that looks and walks and quacks like that system. They're both ducks. They'll both act like ducks. They'll crap all over your house and eat all the popcorn. If you've got a problem with the ducks you already have, another duck is not the solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      When you want to solve the problems in a system, don't make something that looks and walks and quacks like that system. They're both ducks. They'll both act like ducks. They'll crap all over your house and eat all the popcorn. If you've got a problem with the ducks you already have, another duck is not the solution.

      In Oklahoma, we own shotguns.

      We feel that the best duck is served as dinner, and not a pesky little pooper who eats our popcorn!!

      Introducing a man, his dog, and many dinners to come:


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  • Profile picture of the author Riggs
    This is almost exactly the same as Liberty Reserve, except the complication of harvesting BitCoins and understanding them isn't needed.

    The only drawback of LR (in my experience), is that every time you want to login to your account it's like trying to break the f*^%ing Enigma code.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Secondly, they can legislate but it doesn't mean they can stop it. It exists outside of jurisdictions. Look at what happened when the US govt tried to outlaw online gambling, it simply went offshore. Now it looks like they are going to try and regulate it as they realised what a dumb move they made.

    That is an organization in which I want to put my money and my financial future -- into an organization that is "outside the law" (i.e. "outside the legislative control of governments")!! /sarcasm

    Thanks, but no thanks.

    If I were to take the stand, as the OP has done, that I don't want my customers to have financial protection for the money they spend with me, then I deserve what will befall me when I entrust my money to this grand new monetary system that is outside the legal constraints of consumer protection laws.

    If this system is truly outside the control of legislative action, then I would be entrusting my financial future to "some Japanese guy", who seems to be described as a person with very altruistic motives.

    Call me jaded if you will, but I don't trust that any man is as altruistic as described. All men do things for their own personal gain.

    History has taught me that even Charles Ponzi made a lot of people rich, and yet, we all know how that turned out. :rolleyes:

    Strangely, the arguments that are being made "for Bitcoin" are the very reasons why I am growing more and more "wary of Bitcoin".

    I don't think that was your intention, but it is the net result of your efforts and the efforts of others.


    .
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      For Pete's sake, let's bury this notion that this "Japanese" guy is some kind of weak link in the currency.

      He invented it, yes. But he doesn't control it. It is decentralised. The source code is out there for all to see. There are no back doors in a concept. Anyone can compile their own client program if they want to. You can even back up your wallet to paper if you want to.

      I don't know Pete, but for his sake, please don't insult our intelligence.

      A money system that is controlled by no one, is in fact controlled by someone.

      Decentralized simply means "wild, wild west" in Okie speak.

      For those folks from Arkansas, that means that the hillbilly, who shoots revenuers for fun, is in charge of the local community. You know the feller I am talking about -- the one who is so big and mean that no one in their right mind is going to confront him directly about anything he says or does, because he would just asoon shoot your ass rather than to listen to you whine about right and wrong.

      If this thing is decentralized, then who keeps it clean from fraud and black hatters? No one?

      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Unfortunately it has been rocked by price volatility, security concerns (wallet stealing, account exchange hacking), manipulation, jealousy over first adopters making huge profits, incredulity that people can "mine" for money and more.
      All transactions are public and stored in a distributed database that is used to confirm transactions and prevent double-spending. -- Source

      And in case you don't realize it, this system controlled by no one relies on an accounting system, managed by a few remote servers that house its distributed database. And these choke points are controlled by someone.

      Where is the sheriff when a couple of the server administrators go rogue?

      A bitcoin account can be compromised if a computer with a wallet file can be remotely accessed by hackers or becomes infected by a virus or trojan. The first malware specifically targeting Bitcoin wallets was discovered June 16, 2011.

      Current Bitcoin clients lack functionality for encrypting the wallet; however, the current development tree contains this feature and it will be available in the next release.

      In addition there may be considerable danger of theft for users that are not adept at encryption, on June 15 a bitcoin user reported an enormous theft, a sum of bitcoins that was worth $500,000 USD. -- Source

      Who is going to defend the integrity of the network, when one of those scrpt kiddies with too much time on their hands gets into the open source code (consider WordPress for example) to find an exploit that they can use to steal value (assets) from the community?

      Who is going to protect my investment in a system like this? No one?

      LOL


      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Please people, make an effort to understand before judging something. People here moan all the time about misconceptions but this thread is chock full of them.

      A couple of times in this thread, it was stated that Bitcoin is safer than the U.S. Dollar...

      What can I say but, "Wow!! Really?"

      A decentralized system that is controlled and protected by no one is not what I consider a "safe investment" of my hard-earned money.

      Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

      The dollar is not going to recover. The Fed is going to keep printing like there is no tomorrow.

      The devaluing of the U.S. Dollar has been happening for decades, through the mechanism of inflation. There is nothing new about that. Maybe the devaluation is accelerated by the current political environment, but this forum is not one for the discussion of politics.

      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      There is also a dearth of real suppliers and too many people hoarding.

      It could one day take off. The hoarders need to spend more and share the wealth though. Unfortunately, the geeks who hold most of the bitcoins don't seem to understand this.

      Economies are driven by the flow of money between parties.

      When the money supply tightens, it is because people are hoarding money.

      Then the Federal Reserve must print money to grease the economy for growth.

      It may not be a perfect system, but you are asking us to trade an imperfect system for another imperfect system with more flaws than the one we have currently.

      If no one is in control of the Bitcoin money supply, then who is going to protect the integrity of the system for vendors, and who is going to protect the integrity of the system for consumers?

      We tried the wild, wild west here in the United States during the late 1800's, and it was soon realized that installing the hanging judge, Isaac Parker, in Fort Smith Arkansas would be required to protect the prosperity of the many, from the few who would usurp the liberty and wealth of others by force.


      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      The beautiful thing about this currency is it's not centralized, no single entity controls it (hence the p2p aspect), and the user account records (all transactions are public and anonymous) and kept honest through the genius of encryption and math in general.

      The best part is it's impossible to do a charge back, and everything's open source, there are no "transfer fee's", you can have unlimited "accounts", in fact making a new one takes a single button click, etc...

      Any economic system that offers protection for no one, will be abused by anyone who desires to take advantage of others.

      And all economic systems have winners and losers. If we were to trade the U.S. Dollar economy for the Bitcoin economy, the only thing we will be doing is trading one set of masters for another set of masters, whom we do not know.

      As to the question of Bitcoin vs. the U.S. Dollar, I think this proverb speaks volumes:

      Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        [QUOTE=tpw;4769995]I don't know Pete, but for his sake, please don't insult our intelligence.
        [quote]

        the bitcoin system as already stated is completely open source, it uses Tor(anonymity network, which if you're not familar with you should google, is a neat project, been around for years) to connect to an IRCD to aquire a list of online bitcoin nodes (referred to as a bootstrap technique in the p2p world). You only need to do this once if you really want, you can save that list or any other ones in a file and have it just use that from now on, because that inital list has peer discovery, so it's really not centralized at all. Even if say all the nodes on the ircd were "fake" it doesn't matter, as the very simple, yet genius source code shows everyones kept honest by simple math, it prevents double spending, it prevents false bitcoin claims, etc... Unless sha256 is completely broken then there won't be any issues, even if it is they can always move up to sha512 etc...that's the beautiful thing about bitcoin, the direction is really open to the public, there are atleast 6/7 channels about it on freenode with 300+ people in each.

        As far as money laundering goes, I don't see that being an issue. Yes it's possible but not that easy. All transactions are public, though anonymous, but here's the thing even though the send/receive address is anonymous you can still see track the person if they ever use an exchange service. Granted you can make a new address everytime you send/receive bitcoins, you have to either make those bitcoins(which takes a lot of grouped GPU power and isn't very efficient/worth the effort) or buy them, so there's always a digital trail somewhere. Bitcoin needs to be #1, it's far more honest and legit than paypal, i'm sorry so many don't seem to understand that, but it doesn't shock me. Paypal pays millions to portray a false image. Checks and balances are what keeps people honest, bitcoin is open source and for all to see, paypal isn't, and they aren't regulated like other financial institutions in the US either, they have way way too much power and no checks or balances.

        here's an example of a transaction you can lookup http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000...f379eccf92fa85

        https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          Unless sha256 is completely broken then there won't be any issues, even if it is they can always move up to sha512 etc...

          Martin suggested before that those of us not looking at an alternative for the U.S. Dollar have "our heads in the sand"... LOL

          In order for me to accept your statement above at face value, I need to completely ignore these statements:
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          Unfortunately it has been rocked by price volatility, security concerns (wallet stealing, account exchange hacking), manipulation, jealousy over first adopters making huge profits, incredulity that people can "mine" for money and more.
          A bitcoin account can be compromised if a computer with a wallet file can be remotely accessed by hackers or becomes infected by a virus or trojan. The first malware specifically targeting Bitcoin wallets was discovered June 16, 2011.

          Current Bitcoin clients lack functionality for encrypting the wallet; however, the current development tree contains this feature and it will be available in the next release.

          In addition there may be considerable danger of theft for users that are not adept at encryption, on June 15 a bitcoin user reported an enormous theft, a sum of bitcoins that was worth $500,000 USD. -- Source
          Even with sha256, Bitcoin clearly has security problems.

          And yet, you insist that "there won't be any issues."

          So there won't be any issues beyond those security issues already recognized by the public, security experts, and other fans of Bitcoin in this thread?


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          All transactions are public, though anonymous, but here's the thing even though the send/receive address is anonymous you can still see track the person if they ever use an exchange service.

          Some transactions are public, and some transactions are anonymous.

          It has been stated several times in this thread.

          Now, I would not want my personal finances to be made public, except to legal entities, so I support anonymous transactions.

          But the problem with anonymous transactions is that criminal elements also use anonymity to hide their illegal activities. So the government will be very interested in having those anonymous transactions made available to them, so that they can be sure that people are not using this system to dance around the law.

          And criminal elements also use public records to defraud others all the time.

          It has been suggested that Identify Theft is the fastest growing crime segment today.

          Get some of the facts here: Official Identity Theft Statistics | SPENDonLIFE


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          Granted you can make a new address everytime you send/receive bitcoins, you have to either make those bitcoins(which takes a lot of grouped CPU power and isn't very efficient/worth the effort) or buy them, so there's always a digital trail somewhere.

          I am sure it may not be "very efficient/worth the effort", for you... For a couple of reasons:
          1. You are probably more honest than the criminal elements;
          2. And you do not have the computing power of major criminal enterprises.

          But consider this statement:

          The sophistication level of professional identity thieves involved in organized crime continues to grow along with the methods they develop. From individually tailored phishing and vishing scams, to increasingly successful hacks of corporate and government databases, to elaborate networks of botnets designed to hijack millions of computers without any trace, there is an ever-increasing threat to all Americans. -- Source
          While it may not be "very efficient/worth the effort" to you or I or many of the people in this forum, it is clearly worth "upwards of $50 billion" (Source) to the people who have the desire and resources to make it worth their effort.


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          Bitcoin needs to be #1, it's far more honest and legit than paypal, i'm sorry so many don't seem to understand that, but it doesn't shock me.

          There you go again, insulting the intelligence of the people who disagree with you.

          Shame on you.


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          Paypal pays millions to portray a false image.

          Can you PROVE this assertion?

          And if PayPal sues you for slander, do you feel strong enough about your view that you will gamble all of your financial resources on the outcome?


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          Checks and balances are what keeps people honest, bitcoin is open source and for all to see

          Just because it is open source does not mean that it is fully transparent.

          As you and others have said, transactions can be public or anonymous.

          Open source simply means that Programmers can see the source code and make alterations to it.


          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          paypal isn't, and they aren't regulated like other financial institutions in the US either, they have way way too much power and no checks or balances.

          So we are to move to Bitcoins, because PayPal isn't "regulated like other financial institutions in the US"?!?

          Yet, according to Chris:
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          they can legislate but it doesn't mean they can stop it. It exists outside of jurisdictions.
          You are arguing that PayPal should be avoided because it isn't "regulated like other financial institutions in the US", and Chris is telling us that the benefit of Bitcoins is that it is outside the control of governments.

          Well, if both are outside the regulations applied to financial institutions in the U.S. and other countries, then why should we trust the "devil we don't know", over the "devil we do know"?


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          • Profile picture of the author cashtree
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            Martin suggested before that those of us not looking at an alternative for the U.S. Dollar have "our heads in the sand"... LOL

            In order for me to accept your statement above at face value, I need to completely ignore these statements:


            Even with sha256, Bitcoin clearly has security problems.

            And yet, you insist that "there won't be any issues."

            So there won't be any issues beyond those security issues already recognized by the public, security experts, and other fans of Bitcoin in this thread?





            Some transactions are public, and some transactions are anonymous.

            It has been stated several times in this thread.

            Now, I would not want my personal finances to be made public, except to legal entities, so I support anonymous transactions.

            But the problem with anonymous transactions is that criminal elements also use anonymity to hide their illegal activities. So the government will be very interested in having those anonymous transactions made available to them, so that they can be sure that people are not using this system to dance around the law.

            And criminal elements also use public records to defraud others all the time.

            It has been suggested that Identify Theft is the fastest growing crime segment today.

            Get some of the facts here: Official Identity Theft Statistics | SPENDonLIFE





            I am sure it may not be "very efficient/worth the effort", for you... For a couple of reasons:
            1. You are probably more honest than the criminal elements;
            2. And you do not have the computing power of major criminal enterprises.

            But consider this statement:



            While it may not be "very efficient/worth the effort" to you or I or many of the people in this forum, it is clearly worth "upwards of $50 billion" (Source) to the people who have the desire and resources to make it worth their effort.





            There you go again, insulting the intelligence of the people who disagree with you.

            Shame on you.





            Can you PROVE this assertion?

            And if PayPal sues you for slander, do you feel strong enough about your view that you will gamble all of your financial resources on the outcome?





            Just because it is open source does not mean that it is fully transparent.

            As you and others have said, transactions can be public or anonymous.

            Open source simply means that Programmers can see the source code and make alterations to it.





            So we are to move to Bitcoins, because PayPal isn't "regulated like other financial institutions in the US"?!?

            Yet, according to Chris:
            You are arguing that PayPal should be avoided because it isn't "regulated like other financial institutions in the US", and Chris is telling us that the benefit of Bitcoins is that it is outside the control of governments.

            Well, if both are outside the regulations applied to financial institutions in the U.S. and other countries, then why should we trust the "devil we don't know", over the "devil we do know"?


            .

            I want to make this very simple for you so i'll use numbers

            1) ALLLLLL bitcoin transaction are public, ALL, not some, ALL
            2) users getting bitcoins stolen is no different than them getting physical money stolen, they failed to secure their computers, that's why their wallet.dat was stolen by hackers. There's encryption schemes out their to protect them, but that's not the point, it's not bitcoins fault people didn't protect their money, the system didn't break down, the user did.
            3) OPEN SOURCE does mean complete openess, the source is very very easy to read even if you're not a programmer. There's also tons of docs out there that fully explains it, try bitcoin.org. Bitcoin isn't complicated, it's simple and effective
            4) I've provided many links throughout my posts and explained how you can easily track users, which can thawrt money fraud. I appreciate your interest and you going head strong but do yourself a favor and do some research because what you'll find, if you haven't yet is i'm very very familiar with bitcoin and how it works, so it does you no good to try and bs me with pretend, you, me, or others reading it, because i'll see right through it, and i'd imagine so will they.
            5)If you're happy with paypal abusing you and your money, by all means continue to embrace them, market them, tell all your friends, that's your choice, the point of this thread however is to introduce a better system, to intelligent, open minded individuals who may, in time, find bitcoin useful in some way. If not, no harm, no foul.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              I want to make this very simple for you so i'll use numbers

              LOL 1-5, awesome... :rolleyes:


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              1) ALLLLLL bitcoin transaction are public, ALL, not some, ALL
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              All transactions are public, though anonymous, but here's the thing even though the send/receive address is anonymous you can still see track the person if they ever use an exchange service.
              Perhaps the reason why people have a hard time understanding your POV is because you keep contradicting yourself.


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              2) users getting bitcoins stolen is no different than them getting physical money stolen, they failed to secure their computers, that's why their wallet.dat was stolen by hackers. There's encryption schemes out their to protect them, but that's not the point, it's not bitcoins fault people didn't protect their money, the system didn't break down, the user did.

              So we should all be computer security experts?

              And if we are not computer security experts, we had it coming to us?

              LOL

              At least PayPal will protect my assets when someone fraudulently uses my card.

              Somehow, someone in California got my PayPal information and made their own card that they were using in California to try to purchase gasoline and fancy dinners at restaurants. (I live in Oklahoma, and I have never been further west than New Mexico.)

              I did not have to pay for the spending spree of that anonymous person who had stolen my card information.

              PayPal stopped those transactions and shut down my card. Yeah, it was a pain in the ass to have to wait two weeks for a new card, but I did not have to pay for food or gas in California for some asshole who wanted to steal my money.

              It wasn't my fault that my debit card information was stolen. But according to your reasoning, maybe I should never have received that kind of protection from PayPal, because after all, I am not a computer security expert??


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              3) OPEN SOURCE does mean complete openess, the source is very very easy to read even if you're not a programmer. There's also tons of docs out there that fully explains it, try bitcoin.org. Bitcoin isn't complicated, it's simple and effective

              Yes, I can download the code, look at it and adapt it to my own needs.

              I can also download the distributed database and put it on my own computer.

              I am a programmer, so I am sure that I would be able to make sense of it quickly. But that denies the overall problem that most people have with Bitcoins... Most people don't trust it, and you cannot change how people feel by making it open source and transparent.

              WordPress is open source and transparent, but that makes it more powerful AND also more dangerous than other CMS systems, because not all coders have the best interests of the community in mind at all times.


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              4) I've provided many links throughout my posts and explained how you can easily track users, which can thawrt money fraud.

              Yes, and you also "in this post" blamed the victims of fraud, who were unable to thwart the money fraud that happens within the Bitcoins environment.
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              2) users getting bitcoins stolen is no different than them getting physical money stolen, they failed to secure their computers, that's why their wallet.dat was stolen by hackers. There's encryption schemes out their to protect them, but that's not the point, it's not bitcoins fault people didn't protect their money, the system didn't break down, the user did.
              I don't think it is realistic or fair to expect the average person to have the level of knowledge needed to protect their financial assets.

              Like I said, I live in Oklahoma. If you were to come into my house to steal my stuff, I might just blow you away.

              And the cops would let me get by with it, because you broke the law to enter my abode.

              But on a computer system? Should I be required to be a computer security expert to protect my financial assets online?

              While I might be capable of doing so myself, most people I know in the real world don't have the first idea of how to secure their computers. Instead, they rely on their chosen financial institutions to protect their assets for them.

              And they are willing to allow that financial institution to make a profit, from the process of protecting their personal assets.


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              I appreciate your interest and you going head strong but do yourself a favor and do some research because what you'll find, if you haven't yet is i'm very very familiar with bitcoin and how it works, so it does you no good to try and bs me with pretend, you, me, or others reading it, because i'll see right through it, and i'd imagine so will they.

              You are very proud of your level of competence, aren't you?

              But it is only your assertion that I am not competent enough to have a differing viewpoint from yours.


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              5)If you're happy with paypal abusing you and your money, by all means continue to embrace them, market them, tell all your friends, that's your choice,

              Yes, as a consumer, I have a choice as to whom I trust with my money.

              You started this thread on the premise that someone can chargeback on your PayPal account for up to 6 months after the purchase date.

              The reality is that people can only initiate a chargeback through PayPal for up to 45 days!!

              In order to process a chargeback within the 6 month window, the person must purchase using their credit card, instead of PayPal. And that chargeback is processed through the credit card company, who in turn charges back to PayPal, who is naturally going to pass that chargeback to your account, since the chargeback was initiated against your transaction.

              Further, if a buyer uses Amex instead of Visa or Mastercard to process the purchase, it is entirely possible that a chargeback can be pushed on transactions beyond 180 days.

              If you are looking to blame the right people, then your complaint against a 180-day chargeback should be blamed on Visa/Mastercard/American Express, and not on PayPal.


              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              the point of this thread however is to introduce a better system, to intelligent, open minded individuals who may, in time, find bitcoin useful in some way. If not, no harm, no foul.

              A "better system" according to you and a few others. But a system heartily rejected by many others, as being one that is too risky to invest our own money into.

              When I can spend my Bitcoins at the grocery store, I might be willing to consider the platform, but until then, forget it.

              If I have to go through another website to extract my money from the system, then the system is flawed, and not worthy of my consideration.

              I find it quite amusing that you are trying to paint people who disagree with your point of view as people who are not, "intelligent, open minded individuals".

              LOL

              I know I am from Oklahoma, but don't read too much into that fact.


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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    My fave comment so far:
    Bitcoin raises untested legal concerns related to securities law, the Stamp Payments Act, tax evasion, consumer protection and money laundering, among others. And that’s just in the U.S.

    Untested?? Hardly!!! There have been numerous cases over the past decade of payment/currency systems that have launched and either decided to comply with the regs (ie: PayPal) or tried to stay the course and died (ie: EGold - and all of the other dozens of clones).

    You probably are not in the payments industry, and so most of these companies were never even on your 'radar' but believe me - this is not a terribly unique concept - it has simply had a better PR team than most of the others have had.........

    Mel
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Melody View Post

      Untested?? Hardly!!! There have been numerous cases over the past decade of payment/currency systems
      There has never been a decentralised payment/currency system.

      All the precedents apply to central-authority systems where somebody is in control. Bitcoins are a radically different notion: nobody is in control. There is no hub in the wheel, no spokes, just a circle of people throwing money back and forth at one another. It's impossible to track and impossible to regulate. This is by design.

      However, it has been demonstrated more than once that it is very possible to defraud or manipulate. And a lot of people like to quote Thomas Jefferson on that: "They who would give up essential liberty for a sense of security deserve neither." Or something like that.

      Except we regulate the banking industry to prevent fraud and manipulation. We don't let just anyone start running a bank. And essentially, the way bitcoins work, anyone using them is a bank. It's a very egalitarian notion, and the ideas behind it are fascinating. But we have all of these laws that require anyone running a bank to meet specific requirements.

      Somewhere along the line, we are going to have to reconcile that. Clearly, it's not fair to have every normal person who has a few bitcoins comply with banking regulations; that's just silly. We're going to have to draw a line. And when we draw that line, we're going to have to say people on THIS side can do certain things, and people on THAT side can't.

      And that will completely destroy the notion of how bitcoins work, because now you'll need to have Banker-bitcoin and Depositor-bitcoin systems, and hey presto they've invented banks. Isn't that special.

      The only thing that allows bitcoins to operate the way they do is that they are not money.

      Flip that switch, make bitcoins money, and suddenly a vast quantity of regulations already apply to it. The language of those regulations has already taken into account the possibility of new countries and new currencies and new banking authorities, so the deciding factor is simply "is this money?" - and one day, a judge will say "yes it is" and bang his gavel.

      Bam, bitcoins have to comply with banking regulations.

      And do you know who already complies with all those regulations?

      Banks.

      Remember how easy it was for people to start using bitcoins? Banks can do it just as easily. So while the individual bitcoin user suddenly faces a wall of regulations and a deadline for compliance, the bank just has to throw a few switches and say "hey presto, we now accept bitcoins which are fundamentally just another form of currency."

      And it's just one more competing standard.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        It's impossible to track and impossible to regulate. This is by design.
        WRONG. like usual your posts are completely wrong and highly dangerous, I warn anyone to tread very carefully before listening to anything you say. And maybe you should read the post right above yours to see how "impossible" it is to track. Also google, research, study, before you make non-sense claims about "how it's designed".
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          And maybe you should read the post right above yours to see how "impossible" it is to track.
          Joe is arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit some crime or other. The police, executing a legally issued search warrant stipulating to data forensics, check his bitcoin wallet and find a $20k transaction to a single address.

          Now, to whom did Joe give $20k?

          Track that person down for me, in theory, and explain precisely how law enforcement is going to identify and arrest this person.

          (Here's a hint: they can't.)
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author cashtree
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Joe is arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit some crime or other. The police, executing a legally issued search warrant stipulating to data forensics, check his bitcoin wallet and find a $20k transaction to a single address.

            Now, to whom did Joe give $20k?

            Track that person down for me, in theory, and explain precisely how law enforcement is going to identify and arrest this person.

            (Here's a hint: they can't.)
            It scares me that one woman said she thinks you know what you're talking about, but whatever, there will always be people who believe the craziest stuff. Here's your answer, a simple scroll up like I told you before http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4770357
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            • Profile picture of the author Melody
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              It scares me that one woman said she thinks you know what you're talking about, but whatever, there will always be people who believe the craziest stuff. Here's your answer, a simple scroll up like I told you before http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4770357
              If you are referring to me when I said he obviously has some knowledge in this area - you totally read a lot more into that statement!! He DOES have some basic knowledge - but in this case - a LITTLE knowledge is a very dangerous thing - and is a far cry from expertise.

              I have a LOT of knowledge in this area - and know enough to know that I am not an expert by any means - but to think that even cash transactions are totally 'untraceable' is very naive in today's world.

              Fraud detection & ID verification systems are very elegant and sophisticated today. IP address is obviously child's play - there are platforms that can trace a transaction down to the machine that is generated from - mobile, computer, whatever - and pierce proxies and firewalls.

              Can a transaction online be hidden if enough effort goes into it? Yes, but why would you go to the trouble if it is legal? So the scenario described above - simply sending 20k to Joe, a legitimate but 'anonymous' cash transaction - yeah, you better believe that puppy can be traced.

              And if you think not - then you just showed your lack of knowledge and experience in the area. And yeah, I have been involved in such cases.

              Unless you are really into some deep dark stuff - there is not much privacy online in anything you do, and you are honestly living

              Mel
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              • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                Originally Posted by Melody View Post

                If you are referring to me when I said he obviously has some knowledge in this area - you totally read a lot more into that statement!! He DOES have some basic knowledge - but in this case - a LITTLE knowledge is a very dangerous thing - and is a far cry from expertise.

                I have a LOT of knowledge in this area - and know enough to know that I am not an expert by any means - but to think that even cash transactions are totally 'untraceable' is very naive in today's world.

                Fraud detection & ID verification systems are very elegant and sophisticated today. IP address is obviously child's play - there are platforms that can trace a transaction down to the machine that is generated from - mobile, computer, whatever - and pierce proxies and firewalls.

                Can a transaction online be hidden if enough effort goes into it? Yes, but why would you go to the trouble if it is legal? So the scenario described above - simply sending 20k to Joe, a legitimate but 'anonymous' cash transaction - yeah, you better believe that puppy can be traced.

                And if you think not - then you just showed your lack of knowledge and experience in the area. And yeah, I have been involved in such cases.

                Unless you are really into some deep dark stuff - there is not much privacy online in anything you do, and you are honestly living

                Mel
                I was and I completely agree with 99% of everything you said, and as I tried to point out in previous posts, via example, that while money laundering is possible with bitcoin it's definitely not easy, always a digital trail. Here's an example I provided http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4770357

                also to that guy bragging paypal only has a 45 day chargeback policy, I don't a care if it was 24 hours, because that's just window dressing and doesn't matter. Your paypal is hooked up to a credit card or some form a bank which can chargeback 6 months or longer after the fact, and there's nothing paypal nor you can do about it, short of try and dispute, which probably won't get you far. It's a broken system, a flaw, of which doesn't exist in bitcoin. That's not to say there's absolutely no protects, ofcourse you could always have a company in between, though i'm not a fan of it.That's why mtgox.com is, it lets you buy/sell bitcoins for USD and since it holds the funds it prevents fraud, granted...you have to trust in them, so...
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                  also to that guy bragging paypal only has a 45 day chargeback policy

                  Yes... You skim posts rather than reading them. :rolleyes:
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                  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    Yes... You skim posts rather than reading them. :rolleyes:
                    What bases do you have to come to that conclusion? If you're upset that I refuse to play your let me quote every thing the person says in parts game, and argue with them, then sorry, but no. I'm not wasting my time on that, it's immature and I got better things to do. You wouldn't listen anyway.
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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
                      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      Yes... You skim posts rather than reading them. :rolleyes:

                      What bases do you have to come to that conclusion? If you're upset that I refuse to play your let me quote every thing the person says in parts game, and argue with them, then sorry, but no. I'm not wasting my time on that, it's immature and I got better things to do. You wouldn't listen anyway.

                      Pot, Kettle, Black.

                      If you had read my actual comments, you would not have said that I was "cheerleading for PayPal."

                      You have ample time to repeat the same arguments over and over, as if everyone is too stupid to get what you are saying, yet you feel it would be a waste your time to read an opinion contrary to yours.

                      Gotcha.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Melody View Post

                So the scenario described above - simply sending 20k to Joe, a legitimate but 'anonymous' cash transaction - yeah, you better believe that puppy can be traced.
                Melody, you don't seem to grasp that I am talking about bitcoin transactions.

                Bitcoins are not money. They are a toy invented by some Japanese guy, but people like to pretend they're money. They have an exchange rate, just like real currencies, and you can send someone $20k in bitcoins just like you might send them $20k in Swiss francs.

                But bitcoins are not traceable because they're not hooked into all those sophisticated systems we have today. Because they're not money.

                And if we wanted to hook them up to those systems, they can't be decentralised anymore. The tracking and tracing systems of modern financial institutions are by nature centralised. They don't operate in a decentralised environment, because it's not possible to operate a real financial institution without being centralised.

                So we can't have a decentralised currency. It doesn't work. Without the systems and policies that make financial institutions safe, bitcoins cannot possibly succeed. But without the decentralised architecture and block chaining history system... it's not bitcoins anymore. It's just another currency symbol on the exchange board.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alex Kage
                  Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                  Why can't there be a decentralized currency? Gold isn't centralized. It has been a currency for years.
                  I wonder if Gold can lose its value. You know on the idea that someone finds a big mountain made of Gold. Wouldn't it lose its value then. The scarcer a precious metal is the more value it has, the opposite is also true.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                    Originally Posted by Sparda View Post

                    I wonder if Gold can lose its value. You know on the idea that someone finds a big mountain made of Gold. Wouldn't it lose its value then. The scarcer a precious metal is the more value it has, the opposite is also true.
                    That's why you diversify and have gold, silver, platinum, copper, real estate, stocks, socks, bullets, canned goods, water and information.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                      That's why you diversify and have gold, silver, platinum, copper, real estate, stocks, socks, bullets, canned goods, water and information.
                      Dan,

                      You left out Nylons.

                      When the SHTF having a good stash of Nylons will be worth their weight in gold.

                      That's what my dad always told me, anyways...

                      ~Bill
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                • Profile picture of the author Melody
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  Melody, you don't seem to grasp that I am talking about bitcoin transactions.

                  Bitcoins are not money. They are a toy invented by some Japanese guy, but people like to pretend they're money. They have an exchange rate, just like real currencies, and you can send someone $20k in bitcoins just like you might send them $20k in Swiss francs.

                  But bitcoins are not traceable because they're not hooked into all those sophisticated systems we have today. Because they're not money.

                  And if we wanted to hook them up to those systems, they can't be decentralised anymore. The tracking and tracing systems of modern financial institutions are by nature centralised. They don't operate in a decentralised environment, because it's not possible to operate a real financial institution without being centralised.

                  So we can't have a decentralised currency. It doesn't work. Without the systems and policies that make financial institutions safe, bitcoins cannot possibly succeed. But without the decentralised architecture and block chaining history system... it's not bitcoins anymore. It's just another currency symbol on the exchange board.
                  I DO understand what you are saying but honestly - you really don't realize that there is very little than cannot be tracked today. Bitcoins do in fact leave an electronic trail and while they may be difficult to track - they are not impossible. And based on the regs today - IF at some point in the life of the transaction the medium can be purchased or exchanged for money or other goods that could ultimately be exchanged for money (whether that medium is diamonds, bitcoins dollars or donkey poop) - it falls under international compliance regs for financial crimes if it is done internationally or at certain monetary thresholds domestically.

                  One client is an exchange service for Linden dollars - and even he has to have a full Anti-Money Laundering guideline on hand, in case the authorities come knocking. Average size of his transactions? $15.00 but it is international money services.

                  My opinion doesn't matter - what I think should happen doesn't matter. I am not sharing my OPINION here - I am just telling you what I deal with everyday and what the regs require.

                  There has been a great deal of discussion at the last couple of conferences that I attended (banking/money remittance) and the general consensus was that Bitcoin was probably going to have to change a good portion of the core model to survive.

                  I am not trying to disagree - just maybe have a different perspective based on what I do for a living.

                  Mel
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    It seems Bitcoin's top people understand the "laundry" problem better than some members. According to them, they are willing to work with regulators and, "the ownership of every single coin is completely known and traceable."

                    Bitcoin exchanges offer anti- money-laundering aid | Reuters
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                    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      It seems Bitcoin's top people understand the "laundry" problem better than some members. According to them, they are willing to work with regulators and, "the ownership of every single coin is completely known and traceable."

                      Bitcoin exchanges offer anti- money-laundering aid | Reuters
                      I've said that like 6 times now, happy that because you found it on a link that it's a big surprise. Maybe I should start posting in colors to represent crayon, and use big letters.
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                      • Profile picture of the author tpw
                        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                        I've said that like 6 times now, happy that because you found it on a link that it's a big surprise. Maybe I should start posting in colors to represent crayon, and use big letters.

                        Just post in a bigger font.

                        And maybe yes, use colors.

                        Then we could disagree with you in crayon too.
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                    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      It seems Bitcoin's top people understand the "laundry" problem better than some members. According to them, they are willing to work with regulators and, "the ownership of every single coin is completely known and traceable."

                      Bitcoin exchanges offer anti- money-laundering aid | Reuters
                      I think that would be the only obvious way to go if they want to be taken seriously and used by sites like amazon, as cashtree suggests.

                      But I think, a lot would have to change for bitcoin to become big enough to be used by somebody like amazon.

                      I don't know, it's an interesting idea in theory, but I don't see how if it was to be used as a new currency it wouldn't just become like any other currency and fluctuate based on the market and just be another currency.

                      In the end, it's hard for it to become huge unless it can be tied to something, in my opinion.
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                      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                        Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

                        I think that would be the only obvious way to go if they want to be taken seriously and used by sites like amazon, as cashtree suggests.

                        But I think, a lot would have to change for bitcoin to become big enough to be used by somebody like amazon.

                        I don't know, it's an interesting idea in theory, but I don't see how if it was to be used as a new currency it wouldn't just become like any other currency and fluctuate based on the market and just be another currency.

                        In the end, it's hard for it to become huge unless it can be tied to something, in my opinion.
                        You're right, bitcoin does have a ways to go. You can buy amazon products right now with bitcoin by going through a 3rd party like Where can I spend bitcoins? which isn't ideal. The uncertainty of its legality is what's holding many businesses back. The fact it's grown so much in just a few years is very exciting though, it shows the demand is clearly there.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Melody
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      It seems Bitcoin's top people understand the "laundry" problem better than some members. According to them, they are willing to work with regulators and, "the ownership of every single coin is completely known and traceable."

                      Bitcoin exchanges offer anti- money-laundering aid | Reuters
                      Kay -

                      Yes - they did make this public announcement, but to date have not actually implemented the protocols to start the ball rolling. According to one of my clients, a company setting up to be a BitCoin 'trader' - they realize the situation but are concerned that if they start requiring ID verif information needed for compliance, they will lose users. This is 'third party' not from BitCoin direct, but does make sense as it would be a radical change from the current model.

                      And this pretty much backs up the point I was trying to make - they still have to make their model fit today's regulatory environment - because such systems will get shut down if they don't.

                      And they seem to understand that better some of the folks here that seem to think that BitCoin is not subject to such regs because they are BitCoin....in today's world, unless you are your own country - you are going to be subject to someone's rules somewhere.

                      sigh......

                      Mel
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                    Why can't there be a decentralized currency? Gold isn't centralized. It has been a currency for years.
                    Gold is a commodity, not a currency. This is what bitcoins are, too. Oranges are a commodity. Pork bellies are a commodity. Magic cards are a commodity. Pokemon are a commodity. Rare collectible books are a commodity.

                    All of these have one major thing in common: it is abnormal for anyone to accept any of them as payment. These things do have value, and that value does fluctuate, and people do exchange and barter them for cash and other commodities. We do, in fact, have a commodities market in which things like this are traded.

                    A centralised commodities market.

                    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

                    Bitcoins do in fact leave an electronic trail and while they may be difficult to track - they are not impossible.
                    I am not talking about finding the money. I am talking about finding the person. Bitcoins very deliberately make it explicitly possible for anyone using a bitcoin wallet to disavow any knowledge of or involvement in a transaction, because they are designed to protect your privacy.

                    But "privacy" is fundamentally the ability to do something, then claim not to have done it. Perhaps you can think of a reason why that might appeal to criminals.

                    the general consensus was that Bitcoin was probably going to have to change a good portion of the core model to survive.
                    It goes beyond that.

                    The things bitcoin has to do for compliance with banking regulations will destroy precisely what makes bitcoins interesting to anyone.

                    This is why bitcoins are a doomed experiment. They cannot survive and stay interesting.

                    There is absolutely no way for bitcoins to make their way into the realm of "real" money uqiquitously accepted as legal tender unless they can hook into those security and tracking systems that verify and demonstrate compliance with the regulations.

                    And to do that, they need to centralise. Which destroys all the things bitcoin is supposed to do. The infrastructure of bitcoins is irresponsible, and does not scale.
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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
                      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                      A number of private banks issued their own currency for a long time in the US.

                      Until the Great Depression hit full-speed ahead.

                      Then the banks offering their own currencies steadily went under, unable to give people their investments back.

                      That is when the U.S. Government stepped forward and started creating a lot of the banking regulations that we are living with today.
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                  • Profile picture of the author istar
                    Originally Posted by Melody View Post

                    I DO understand what you are saying but honestly - you really don't realize that there is very little than cannot be tracked today. Bitcoins do in fact leave an electronic trail and while they may be difficult to track - they are not impossible. And based on the regs today - IF at some point in the life of the transaction the medium can be purchased or exchanged for money or other goods that could ultimately be exchanged for money (whether that medium is diamonds, bitcoins dollars or donkey poop) - it falls under international compliance regs for financial crimes if it is done internationally or at certain monetary thresholds domestically.

                    One client is an exchange service for Linden dollars - and even he has to have a full Anti-Money Laundering guideline on hand, in case the authorities come knocking. Average size of his transactions? $15.00 but it is international money services.

                    My opinion doesn't matter - what I think should happen doesn't matter. I am not sharing my OPINION here - I am just telling you what I deal with everyday and what the regs require.

                    There has been a great deal of discussion at the last couple of conferences that I attended (banking/money remittance) and the general consensus was that Bitcoin was probably going to have to change a good portion of the core model to survive.

                    I am not trying to disagree - just maybe have a different perspective based on what I do for a living.

                    Mel
                    Very interesting posts, but there are a few things to note.
                    Piracy has survived for many years eventhough its not regulated and against the law, people can copy whatever they like.

                    The other thing is that all the big exchanges are regulated and do comply with KYC AML etc so that "private" part of bitcoin is not a problem anymore.

                    Bitcoin is not really a currency either its a commodity, its like trading gold or poststamps art or domain names.
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            • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              It scares me that one woman said she thinks you know what you're talking about, but whatever, there will always be people who believe the craziest stuff.
              I am just wondering, what makes you think you know any more than he does?
              Seems to me this bitcoin thing appeals to criminals not business people, avoiding taxes, international secret transfers. So I would trust myself in their hands? Not too likely, paypal is not the only alternative however to start jumping all over people while trying to get them to visit a website is maybe not the best solution imo

              For the record I don't like CD however you have no right to try and belittle him and I can say this fellow knows a lot more than a lot of people in general

              -WD
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

                For the record I don't like CD however you have no right to try and belittle him and I can say this fellow knows a lot more than a lot of people in general

                -WD

                WD, please tell us exactly how you feel about CD...
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                • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                  Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                  WD, please tell us exactly how you feel about CD...
                  Just being honest, I don't want someone thinking I may have alterior motives for defending him.
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                tpw and CDarklock,

                I used to have a lot of respect for you guys but the way you have used fallacious arguments and twisted people's words in this thread . . .


                Melody and Chris Kent,

                Thank you for your very informative and civilized posts. I learned a lot from them.


                Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                  tpw and CDarklock,

                  I used to have a lot of respect for you guys but the way you have used fallacious arguments and twisted people's words in this thread . . .

                  Martin: I disagree with your assertion that I have used any "fallacious arguments" and that I have "twisted anyone's words."

                  Unless you are referring to my tongue-in-cheek comment about "buying your services using chickens," when you suggested that more people should barter goods, then I did not misquote anyone. Yes, I double-checked.

                  I quoted what was said, when I addressed other people's comments.

                  Furthermore, which definition of "fallacious" am I to reference when viewing your comments?

                  Web definitions

                  containing or based on a fallacy; "fallacious reasoning"; "an unsound argument"

                  deceitful: intended to deceive; "deceitful advertising"; "fallacious testimony"; "smooth, shining, and deceitful as thin ice" - S.T.Coleridge; "a fraudulent scheme to escape paying taxes"

                  based on an incorrect or misleading notion or information; "fallacious hope"

                  (fallacy) a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

                  Characterized by fallacy; false or mistaken; Deceptive or misleading

                  (fallacy) Deceptive or false appearance; deceitfulness; that which misleads the eye or the mind; deception; An argument, or apparent argument, which professes to be decisive of the matter at issue, while in reality it is not. A specious argument

                  (FALLACY) 1. In philosophy, a fallacy is a logical breach or fault in an argument. A logical or formal fallacy is an invalid argument in which the premises do not deductively imply the conclusion.

                  (Fallacy) An argument that is flawed, does not follow rules of logic, and therefore is not to be believed (p. FF-84). An error in reasoning (p. 445).

                  (Fallacy) An effective means of argument we leftists often employ.

                  (Fallacy) any sort of mistake in reasoning or inference (essentially, anything that causes an argument to go wrong).

                  (Fallacy) invalid patterns of reasoning which lead us to false conclusions

                  (Fallacy) something that is believed to be true but is erroneous, invalid argument

                  (fallacy) A mistake in reasoning; an argument that fails to provide adequate logical support for the truth of its conclusion, yet appears convincing or persuasive in some other way. ...

                  (fallacy) An error in reasoning that makes it impossible to establish the conclusion in question on the given premise; a logical mistake that makes deductive arguments invalid. "Informal fallacies" generally describe a stated inference that frequently (but not always) is not true. ...

                  (fallacy) a false notion or belief; an error in thinking

                  A fallacy is an argument which seems to be correct but which contains at least one error and, as a consequence, produces a final statement which is clearly wrong. Though it is clear that the result is wrong, the error in the argument is usually (and ought to be) difficult to find.

                  A fallacy is an attractive but unreliable piece of reasoning, or affirming the consequent and denying the antecedent. ...

                  Fallacy is an error of reasoning, it is mistake in judgment. It is a type of mistake in argumentation that might appear to be correct, but which proves upon examination not to be so. An argument is governed by certain rules, and violation of any one of them makes an argument invalid and fallacious.

                  (adj) - incorrect, mistaken. fallacy (n)

                  (adj.) incorrect, misleading (Emily offered me cigarettes on the fallacious assumption that I smoked.)

                  Am I just wrong, or am I deliberately misleading people? Or was it one of the other definitions that best fit your meaning?

                  Have I lost your respect, because I vocally disagree with your point of view?

                  Or, because I am not the person you had often given me credit for being?

                  I am the same person I was yesterday... The only thing that has changed is that you have lost your respect for me today...

                  Too bad for you...

                  Because even when I am giving great advice to others, you will no longer appreciate the good I bring to the community, simply because you and I disagreed with one another today.

                  You are always free to disagree with me and to dislike me if you do...

                  But it will not diminish my ability to think for myself.
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              • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

                I am just wondering, what makes you think you know any more than he does?
                Seems to me this bitcoin thing appeals to criminals not business people, avoiding taxes, international secret transfers. So I would trust myself in their hands? Not too likely, paypal is not the only alternative however to start jumping all over people while trying to get them to visit a website is maybe not the best solution imo

                For the record I don't like CD however you have no right to try and belittle him and I can say this fellow knows a lot more than a lot of people in general

                -WD
                When it comes to bitcoin, which is what I was referring to, the proof is in his posts. As far as IM goes, i'm sure he does know a lot more than me, but that doesn't mean anything, because he doesn't know how to communicate it. Look at 99% of his post, this thread or any other, all negative...that's not the type of person I look to associate with personally, if you do, more power to you. It's the positive people i've found that are almost always the smartest, regardless of what the topic is. Can bitcoin be used for illegal activity? Sure, so can anything else, you leave a person to his own devices, he'll find a way to pervert, break, twist, cheat, or misuse it, it's happened for centuries. But that doesn't mean great ideas, and projects should be scraped because of the fear a few bad apples will ruin it for everyone, if that were the case you might as well not create anything.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
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                  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                    Yes, it's had its ups and downs, just a few years ago it was worth pennies, then for awhile averaged around $15. That article is mostly about catchy headlines though because the way bitcoin is designed is overtime, no matter what, because of of the limit and how hard it becomes to make new ones, their value only increases. What maybe happening here is because the US and many other countries economy isn't the best right now is people are selling their bitcoins very cheap for quick cash, instead of holding on to them like the valuable piece of stock they are, which are only going to increase in value overtime. There was also the issue of the top exchange site getting hacked...again not bitcoins fault, just admins that didn't properly secure their database, which happens in all industries at all levels(see playstation). They made things right, but the fear and doubt side effects unfortunately are still lingering, but in a way it helped strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem because similar sites like tradehill and others have really focused on making sure they're secure.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

              Here's your answer, a simple scroll up like I told you before
              That is not tracing where the money IS.

              It is tracing where the money WAS.

              That is rather an important distinction.
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      • Profile picture of the author Melody
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        There has never been a decentralised payment/currency system.
        Hmmm......same argument I have heard IN PERSON from more than one payment platform/ewallet/alternative payment person since the early days of the web.

        I appreciate your opinions, and obviously you are knowledgeable in the area - but I also have 25+ years of real-world experience in money-movement systems and regulations - and I have heard exactly this same argument from more than one 'world changing' technology company. I've shared many a podium with them in fact - and none are still around.

        If you can 'buy' goods or services using BitCoin - then those goods or services can later be sold for 'real' currency. If I bought diamonds today using BitCoins - I can sell those diamonds tomorrow for Euros or USD or CAD or whatever I want. In this way - these platforms get used for money laundering or funding of terrorism activities, and because of this possibility - those transactions will be under scrutiny by governments worldwide. 'Anonymous' + money/bitcoin/whatever makes every government want to know what is going on - and WHY do you need to make a transaction that is anonymous?

        This is where they get tripped up. I respect the concept - but trying to stay outside of the regulatory environment today is virtually impossible - decentralized or not.

        As I said before - great idea - tough road.

        melody
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        • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Melody View Post

          If you can 'buy' goods or services using BitCoin - then those goods or services can later be sold for 'real' currency. If I bought diamonds today using BitCoins - I can sell those diamonds tomorrow for Euros or USD or CAD or whatever I want.

          melody
          That's the way Itex works. Some of you might remember there was a WarriorForum workshop some time ago (I think it was in 2009?) about barter and trade. They taught about using Itex to buy real-life items and either resell them for a profit, or simply keep for a huge discount.

          The thing that made Itex so powerful was that when you placed an item in their marketplace, you had to make its price equal to or less than its real world price. So if you sold pizza in the real world for $10 USD, and you decided to sell it on the Itex Marketplace, you couldn't charge more than $10 ITD (Itex Dollars) for that pizza. Obviously, this could be abused like anything else, but it works pretty well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Chris -

    What is your background in payments/money remittance/anti-money laundering/KYCC regulations, etc? You seem to be taking a pretty strong stance on the issues at hand here - so am assuming that you have some background in this area?

    Melody
    Signature
    Our first "Digital Yard Sale"! A massive PLR Blowout Sale to help a friend pay medical expenses.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      There are plenty of reasons to use bitcoin for good, altruistic and useful reasons.
      Name five. Seriously, if there are plenty of reasons, name them and maybe they'll make some sense. Name reasons outside the practice of hoarding or trading the coins themselves.

      The OP made the statement about many places now accepting Bitcoins - but when pointed out there are no such places on the bitcoin "directories" - he didn't comment.

      Many of the supportive comments are similar to those posted in defense of paid-to-click sites a few years ago. People argued they were "legal" - until they weren't. The "laws can't do anything" - until they did. It was posted as "a great money maker" - until it was a loss.

      If Bitcoin has a future, it will grow. If not, it won't. It's been around 2-3 years and so far not much has happened except a small group devoted to making money with Bitcoins. Nothing said here will affect the outcome.

      kay
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I'm going to work on being less condescending
      (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    Here's how i'd track someone through bitcoin, say I was the anti-fraud police and I suspect some guys selling copyright stuff or whatever else to people and accepting payment via bitcoin. So i'd aquire the public bitcoin address they give out(which they have to, to receive payment), look through the public transaction db(transaction blocks all bitcoin users download) to see all addresses that sent this address payment(i could back track and find those users if I wanted too, but lets skip that for now) and instead focus on all bitcoins sent from this address, because the idea being the end of the trail will lead us to gold, either the seller sends his bitcoins to an exchange service for $$$ or buys something with them that may point to personal information like a shipping address. It's really that easy, even if he sent his bitcoins to a million different accounts, it doesn't matter, you can still track it, and it has to end somewhere. And even if he received payment each time through new bitcoin addresses, doesn't matter, you only need one to follow the digital trail(though this would protect the buyers if the seller did this). Basically if he moves any of the bitcoins from his account, it'll leave an easy to find trail, that's my point. There is one exception to this, since your bitcoins are stored in a file on your harddrive(or wherever you want to put them) in theory he could give his bitcoins out on a phsyical medium like a pen drive, but even with that, that's the same as paying in cash vs using a debit card, and can be tracked to for the most part.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    I'm just waiting for a link to a WSO on how to make a fortune with bitcoins to appear in your signature since you seem really desperate to promote it.

    -Chris
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      I'm just waiting for a link to a WSO on how to make a fortune with bitcoins to appear in your signature since you seem really desperate to promote it.

      -Chris
      Nah, I can just appreciate the genius behind it, as a programmer, and understand the problems is fixes. The increase abuse of companies also show more than ever why bitcoin and systems like it need to be more mainstream, I just recently read about super cookies...if you don't know what those are google, cause they suck.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      As far as money laundering goes, I don't see that being an issue.
      Neither did egold.
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I'm going to work on being less condescending
      (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Neither did egold.
        egold isn't the same.
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      • Profile picture of the author Melody
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Neither did egold.
        LOL - that is good!!
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    I'd like to say there's nothing stopping a company from doing a escrow service for bitcoin either, where a 3rd party holds on to the funds until the product/service trade is complete on both ends,granted this is going back to a paypal setup, so that company would have to be trusted...good thing is, with bitcoin it'd be a lot easier though, that's what mtgox and tradehill do basically, for conversion only though. There's a ton of similar sites out there, here's overview of the market Bitcoin Watch as you can see it's still healthy, no "crash" etc...all that's just fear mongering. Also http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Christine2011
    Bitcoin...this is new to me but sounds interesting

    Thanks for the posters above as well who gave links and ideas about the matter.

    gonna go and check this out
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    I've been watching this discussion, munching popcorn and shaking my head.

    Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

    The problem with debit/credit cards is their tied to a horribly broken system.
    That horribly broken system has been evolving for over 100 years.

    Billions of dollars have been invested in these systems to make them globally available and reasonably secure. They are so firmly entrenched in the world's financial systems, they aren't going to be replaced easily or anytime soon.

    Users can chargeback up to 6 months after purchase...yeah I said 6 months, and there's really nothing you can do short of submit anything to help your case, if the company even bothers to ask you, even then the chances of you winning are slim.
    Ah, now I get it - you want to take away consumer protection from the majority of buyers who don't ever do anything wrong, because you sold something and got a bunch of chargebacks and your PayPal account frozen. :rolleyes:

    If you want to avoid chargebacks, build a decent product, give good service and don't scam your customers. It's really pretty easy...been doing it for years.

    This is a serious problem for anyone selling anything, it can get your accounts locked(such as paypal) it can hurt your reputation and business and it can make you lose product, and tons of money.
    No, you're wrong - YOU get your accounts locked and YOU ruin your reputation...not the companies involved in processing your payments.

    Incidentally, even displaying on a sales page that you accept bitcoin or other systems like this along with a standard payment processor is more likely to reduce conversions and harm your reputation than anything else.

    Enters bitcoin
    I don't have a problem with the concept of a virtual currency - one that's secure, regulated and widely accepted.

    If you really think that bitcoin or any other virtual currency, especially one that's open source, P2P, has no consumer protection and no regulation/oversight is ever going to take off, then brother I want a prescription for the meds you must be taking.

    The key point you're failing to grasp is that while it may sound great for merchants, the main problem is that there is absolutely no benefit or incentive for the consumer to adapt it.

    And if you can't sell it to consumers on a global scale, there's no reason for merchants to adapt it either.

    I read somewhere that in 2010, Visa processed a total volume of over $1 trillion in debit card transactions. Mastercard did about half of that...and with the average US household having 2.5 debit cards and 3 point something credit cards, merchants aren't going to give up that consumer base in favor of something like bitcoin.

    But, it's your choice and good luck using them...I'll stick with the horribly broken system that's been instrumental in earning me a fortune over the last ten years.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      I'll stick with the horribly broken system that's been instrumental in earning me a fortune over the last ten years.
      You do that, and our economy will continue to stagger, remember how we got here, most of that wasn't because of the war, oh no my friend, it was because of the banks you so value and trust. Allowing them to run themselves with an entire nation dependent on them, was a big no no, and that's already been proven.

      Anyone wanna flip some houses? i'm a bank a nation depends on, it's cool...if we go into debt it won't be a problem....yeah... boa all the way!
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        You do that, and our economy will continue to stagger, remember how we got here, most of that wasn't because of the war, oh no my friend, it was because of the banks you so value and trust. Allowing them to run themselves with an entire nation dependent on them, was a big no no, and that's already been proven.

        Anyone wanna flip some houses? i'm a bank a nation depends on, it's cool...if we go into debt it won't be a problem....yeah... boa all the way!
        Give me a break...it's just a little more complex than that. But sure, why not, I'll just go depend on bitcoin to live on.
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Give me a break...it's just a little more complex than that. But sure, why not, I'll just go depend on bitcoin to live on.
          I'm not saying you should get rid of your bank accounts and just use bitcoin, obviously(though storing some physical cash outside the bank might not be a bad idea) I'm just saying bitcoin being used to compliment your already existing commerce setup now or in the future should be considered. If it's not for you, that's fine but keep in mind, that right now, as i'm speaking to you, is a unique time to get on the bitcoin money train. The market isn't saturated and tons of sites using it are popping up, I literally got an email tonight about a new online gambling site called Las BitVegas. There's only a handful of exchange sites, all of which are making good money, and even less ones that are quality. So lot of opportunity here, all i'm saying, had I got on bitcoin years ago I could have over 100k right now, because of the incredible increased value of individual coins, and how easy it was to make them back then.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            I'm not saying you should get rid of your bank accounts and just use bitcoin, obviously(though storing some physical cash outside the bank might not be a bad idea) I'm just saying bitcoin being used to compliment your already existing commerce setup now or in the future should be considered. If it's not for you, that's fine but keep in mind, that right now, as i'm speaking to you, is a unique time to get on the bitcoin money train. The market isn't saturated and tons of sites using it are popping up, I literally got an email tonight about a new online gambling site called Las BitVegas. There's only a handful of exchange sites, all of which are making good money, and even less ones that are quality. So lot of opportunity here, all i'm saying, had I got on bitcoin years ago I could have over 100k right now, because of the incredible increased value of individual coins, and how easy it was to make them back then.
            I think anyone with half a brain would be better off taking the bus...
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Anyone wanna flip some houses?

        Believe it or not, there are still people making a killing flipping houses in this bad real estate economy.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Paperchasing
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        You do that, and our economy will continue to stagger, remember how we got here, most of that wasn't because of the war, oh no my friend, it was because of the banks you so value and trust. Allowing them to run themselves with an entire nation dependent on them, was a big no no, and that's already been proven.

        Anyone wanna flip some houses? i'm a bank a nation depends on, it's cool...if we go into debt it won't be a problem....yeah... boa all the way!
        Because the only alternative to full, unwavering support of bitcoin is investing all my money into bank loans. Oh wait, I live in reality. You know, that place where you can't announce some sketchy unregulated virtual currency "needs to be #1," provide absolutely no rational basis for it, and then cry about negativity when people call your position into question without a justified bit of criticism. I hope you don't think your behavior qualifies as a positive promotion for bitcoin. I can assure you it is not.
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  • Profile picture of the author hgy
    first time i have ever heard of bitcoins
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by hgy View Post

      first time i have ever heard of bitcoins
      Well I hope my brief overview was somewhat helpful, I recommend you check out bitcoin.org for a more in-depth look.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Well I hope my brief overview was somewhat helpful, I recommend you check out bitcoin.org for a more in-depth look.
        I recommend you don't - he's promoting this just a little too hard, which makes me suspicious of his intent.
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I recommend you don't - he's promoting this just a little too hard, which makes me suspicious of his intent.
          .org is typically for a non-profit, that site, isn't mine. It's not selling anything, it's open source, and i'd appreciate it if you'd stop your fear mongering based off nothing. You skipped on in this thread, and you can skip on out, if your "intent" is to bring negativity.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            .org is typically for a non-profit, that site, isn't mine. It's not selling anything, it's open source, and i'd appreciate it if you'd stop your fear mongering based off nothing. You skipped on in this thread, and you can skip on out, if your "intent" is to bring negativity.
            Now you're showing how little you know - .org is not for non-profits and hasn't been for a long time.

            I can skip on in and post anytime I feel like it.

            And if it protects members from making a potentially huge mistake, then yes, I'll bring all the negativity I want to it.

            And there's nothing you can do about it....
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            • Profile picture of the author cashtree
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              Now you're showing how little you know - .org is not for non-profits and hasn't been for a long time.

              I can skip on in and post anytime I feel like it.

              And if it protects members from making a potentially huge mistake, then yes, I'll bring all the negativity I want to it.

              And there's nothing you can do about it....
              yeah whatever you say "BIG" mike. I seriously doubt anyone needs your "protection" sounds almost like a bad comedy skit, "BIG" mike to the rescue?! Rescue users from making money, that's all you'd be rescuing... Thankfully, this forums filled with highly intelligent individuals who are more than capable of thinking for themselves, and they don't need characters like you making decisions for them.
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              • Profile picture of the author calhoun
                So if bitcoins are so great how come you have to leave your computer on all night to collect them?

                Why can't you just get a job and get paid in bitcoins instead of real money?

                Bitcoins sounds too good to be true.
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                • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                  Originally Posted by calhoun View Post

                  So if bitcoins are so great how come you have to leave your computer on all night to collect them?

                  Why can't you just get a job and get paid in bitcoins instead of real money?

                  Bitcoins sounds too good to be true.
                  It's still relatively new and not that well known yet, also when it does get on the mainstream public radar, I highly doubt multi-billion dollar banks are going to let bitcoin just mosey on in if they can stop it. The other issue is lack of control of certain aspects of it by the government, which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                    It's still relatively new and not that well known yet, also when it does get on the mainstream public radar, I highly doubt multi-billion dollar banks are going to let bitcoin just mosey on in if they can stop it. The other issue is lack of control of certain aspects of it by the government, which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet.
                    It never will become well-known....
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                    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                      It never will become well-known....
                      Thanks for your valuable input there "BIG" mike... All the bitcoin books, hundreds of sites, etc... that have popped up in the last few years beg to differ though.
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                      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                        Thanks for your valuable input there "BIG" mike. All the bitcoin books, hundreds of sites, etc... that have popped up in the last few years beg to differ though.
                        Big deal...compared to the millions of sites doing some form of e-commerce with debit/credit cards? That make real money that you can take home at the end of the day and spend it wherever you want to?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Alex Kage
                      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                      It never will become well-known....
                      If the Government or banks find a way to control this currency(or make their own currency based on the same idea) then this type of currency could be plausible in the future.(since more people are using digital currency instead of paper money). If that happens, I think it's gonna be mayhem.
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                      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Sparda View Post

                        If the Government or banks find a way to control this currency(or make their own currency based on the same idea) then this type of currency could be plausible in the future.(since more people are using digital currency instead of paper money). If that happens, I think it's gonna be mayhem.
                        No one here is disputing that but the OP.

                        He wants everyone to believe that it's a good thing because it takes away consumer protection and that ain't gonna happen.

                        He's already admitted a few posts up that it's illegal in some countries to begin with. There's a reason why it's illegal...
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                        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                          No one here is disputing that but the OP.

                          He wants everyone to believe that it's a good thing because it takes away consumer protection and that ain't gonna happen.

                          He's already admitted a few posts up that it's illegal in some countries to begin with. There's a reason why it's illegal...
                          Show me where I said it was illegal in a few countries. If you can't that means you're a liar and I want everyone to see.
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                          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                            Show me where I said it was illegal in a few countries. If you can't that means you're a liar and I want everyone to see.
                            Um, OK...

                            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                            It's still relatively new and not that well known yet, also when it does get on the mainstream public radar, I highly doubt multi-billion dollar banks are going to let bitcoin just mosey on in if they can stop it. The other issue is lack of control of certain aspects of it by the government, which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet.
                            Let me clue you in...it's illegal in Greece.

                            Even you've admitted that it's not known whether or not this is legal at all.
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                            • Profile picture of the author cashtree
                              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                              Um, OK...



                              Let me clue you in...it's illegal in Greece.

                              Even you've admitted that it's not known whether or not this is legal at all.
                              It's not illegal in greece https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=519.0

                              and
                              "which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet."

                              MAY, what does may mean? let's look it up,
                              1.
                              (used to express possibility): It may rain.
                              2.
                              (used to express opportunity or permission): You may enter.
                              3.
                              (used to express contingency, especially in clauses indicating condition, concession, purpose, result, etc.): I may be wrong but I think you would be wise to go. Times may change but human nature stays the same.

                              Not IS, so you're not a liar, just illiterate.
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                              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                                It's not illegal in greece https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=519.0

                                and
                                "which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet."

                                MAY, what does may mean? let's look it up,
                                1.
                                (used to express possibility): It may rain.
                                2.
                                (used to express opportunity or permission): You may enter.
                                3.
                                (used to express contingency, especially in clauses indicating condition, concession, purpose, result, etc.): I may be wrong but I think you would be wise to go. Times may change but human nature stays the same.

                                Not IS, so you're not a liar, just illiterate.
                                Dude, I'm not taking legal advice from some guy on a bitcoin forum regarding the laws of Greece. Especially when I've got some expertise in them myself...

                                And "May" means you don't know. And that's the problem...you're advising everyone to get into something that could potentially cause them financial harm. <- more fearmongering
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

                Thankfully, this forums filled with highly intelligent individuals who are more than capable of thinking for themselves, and they don't need characters like you making decisions for them.

                LOL

                You have shown that you don't much care for people, "who are more than capable of thinking for themselves."

                And you don't want Mr. Mike making decisions for folks, because folks might actually prefer you to do their thinking for them?

                :rolleyes:
                Signature
                Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    I hear there is quite a lot of monopoly money out there available to the general public too. Could we accept that as payment?
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      I hear there is quite a lot of monopoly money out there available to the general public too. Could we accept that as payment?
      Bet you'd be good selling off Boardwalk and Park Place...
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      My point exactly, why don't you and your kind avoid ruining threads? You bring nothing of value here but lies, and fear mongering. I feel bad for anyone that bothers to listen to the non-sense you post there "BIG" mike.
      That's not entirely true...I bring a lot of humor here too. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      Show me where I said it was illegal in a few countries. If you can't that means you're a liar and I want everyone to see.
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      My point exactly, why don't you and your kind avoid ruining threads? You bring nothing of value here but lies, and fear mongering. I feel bad for anyone that bothers to listen to the non-sense you post there "BIG" mike.

      You must be off of your meds.

      You might look into fixin that.


      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      It's still relatively new and not that well known yet, also when it does get on the mainstream public radar, I highly doubt multi-billion dollar banks are going to let bitcoin just mosey on in if they can stop it. The other issue is lack of control of certain aspects of it by the government, which in itself may make it illegal in some/all countries, that part isn't known yet.

      I added my crayon so you wouldn't overlook it this time.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      I recently saw on another thread someone suggest a permanent popcorn machine be put up in the main corridor of the forum.

      Is it there yet?

      Also, I'm still living under a stone. I've not heard of this bitofcoin.com or whatever it is.

      Over here we still use buttons.

      What's Paypal?
      Signature

      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        I recently saw on another thread someone suggest a permanent popcorn machine be put up in the main corridor of the forum.

        Is it there yet?

        No, not yet.

        But we still have the popcorn muncher available...


        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Interesting thread. Lots of good back and forth. Much of it is speculation, so let me add my speculation to this thread:

    1) I make a good living accepting credit cards, and Paypal.

    2) If I add Bitcoins to that, I'm guessing everyone or almost everyone will keep using credit cards or Paypal simply because they have protection that way in case they don't like my product.

    3) If I only accepted Bitcoins I'd have to get a job because my income would plumment.

    What incentive do I have for jumping on the Bitcon bandwagon?

    Refunds aren't a problem for me. Chargebacks aren't a problem for me. Both are rare, and I do offer a guarantee, I want my customers to be happy with their purchases.

    So what would Bitcoin do for me besides adding another layer of complexity to my checkout process? I sure don't foresee enough monetary gain to make the extra effort pay off.

    I see no reason for me to accept Bitcoins, and plenty of reasons not to. I'd further speculate that most merchants would have the same reasons not to jump on the bandwagon that I do. So exactly who is it that Bitcoin needs to be number one for, because it isn't me or anyone I know.
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    You know what...I apologize for insulting some people in this thread, i'm passionate about bitcoin and it drives me crazy when people post misinformation about it and present it as fact. I have to remember to remind myself that there always going to be individuals who do that, in all mediums, as well as people who will listen to them. There's nothing I can do in this case, short of posting correct information and letting them believe what they want.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      There's nothing I can do in this case, short of posting correct information and letting them believe what they want.

      And I apologize to you for being a thorn in your side.

      But so long as I continue to disagree with your viewpoint, all I can do is to present an opposite point of view, and let our audience decide for themselves whose opinion seems to make the most sense.

      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Dude, don't waste your efforts. Trying to get blood from a stone is just going to wear you down. If people don't want to hear the frankly basic truths then don't go out of your way to educate them. Let them believe their own myth.

      I find it ironic that the same people who slam bitcoin unfairly are the same ones who complain about people "calling IM a scam" etc.

      Perception is a problem with anything new and people hold to misinformed opinions fast.

      Let them figure it out on their own. If and when bitcoin really takes off, they will be forced to educate themselves anyway. Then they can look back on this thread in the years to come and laugh at how ignorant they were.

      In the meantime, anyone can check the main bitcoin forum to learn more if they want to.
      And I find it ironic that people supporting BitCoin want to ignore the basic premise that even BitCoin is acknowledging: they are going to have to meet certain regulatory requirements that exist today or they are going to face a lot of very serious issues.

      The system has great potential, I applaud the concept - but they still have a tough road ahead of them and not everything that they originally built into the platform is going to make it out the other side.

      Melody
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Melody View Post

        And I find it ironic that people supporting BitCoin want to ignore the basic premise that even BitCoin is acknowledging: they are going to have to meet certain regulatory requirements that exist today or they are going to face a lot of very serious issues.
        I find it ironic that people supporting Bitcoin choose to believe anyone with a differing opinion is ignorant and believe myths.

        What Bitcoin may become in the future is entirely different from what it is right now, but they want to believe only the positive about it while ignoring or glossing over the negatives.

        And they think those who are skeptical are the ones with the closed minds. :rolleyes:

        Seems to me they're trying to convince us to replace a system that isn't all that broken with a different system that isn't all that practical.
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          I find it ironic that people supporting Bitcoin choose to believe anyone with a differing opinion is ignorant and believe myths.

          What Bitcoin may become in the future is entirely different from what it is right now, but they want to believe only the positive about it while ignoring or glossing over the negatives.

          And they think those who are skeptical are the ones with the closed minds. :rolleyes:

          Seems to me they're trying to convince us to replace a system that isn't all that broken with a different system that isn't all that practical.
          As I said before, I simply presented what I believe to be a great system. If it's not for you, by all means,don't use it, but sit there and try and bash it? Does no one any good, obviously just about all systems have their pros and cons.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            As I said before, I simply presented what I believe to be a great system. If it's not for you, by all means,don't use it, but sit there and try and bash it? Does no one any good, obviously just about all systems have their pros and cons.

            I didn't bash it. You and others have bashed people who disagree though. This is starting to become a habit with you. You claim you want a discussion but then you don't discuss, you lecture and insult.

            I'm still waiting for you to answer my question in post #155.
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          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            As I said before, I simply presented what I believe to be a great system. If it's not for you, by all means,don't use it, but sit there and try and bash it? Does no one any good, obviously just about all systems have their pros and cons.
            I'm taking neither side, but having followed the thread quite closely, the part I've bolded could just as easily apply to the glossing over of glaringly obvious, potentially fatal flaws.

            Yes, all systems have benefits as well as drawbacks, or "pros and cons", if you will, but being a proponent or an opponent of a system doesn't mean you have to be deliberately ignorant to sensible, realistic and valid arguments advanced by those who aren't "wearing your colours".

            Instead of confronting and weighing things up head-on, parties engage in spin, omission, deception and flagrant insults.

            To me, it seems similar to the endless left vs. right wing "party politics" (in fact, isn't that more or less precisely what it boils down to?), whereby neither side would be caught dead so much as acknowledging or tolerating their "opponents" specific views, ideas, comments or achievements publicly - even if they can be rationalised privately and there's an overlap of fundamental idealogy between them - simply because that'd be too mature and level-headed, and "what'd be the fun in life if not for the feeling of immense power that comes from the influencing (or radical brainwashing) of others" and the sense of "belonging" like animals to a herd.

            Just what I gathered from reading this thread, anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    I guess I'll take my lying, illiterate, fear mongering ass off to bed...

    By the way, search on the legality of bitcoin and it turns up some really interesting info. From what I've read so far, it sounds more and more like a system used mainly for illegal activities and money laundering.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

    The problem with debit/credit cards is their tied to a horribly broken system. Users can chargeback up to 6 months after purchase...yeah I said 6 months, and there's really nothing you can do short of submit anything to help your case, if the company even bothers to ask you, even then the chances of you winning are slim. This is a serious problem for anyone selling anything, it can get your accounts locked(such as paypal) it can hurt your reputation and business and it can make you lose product, and tons of money.
    The horrible problem is that they still have that little problem that is MILLENIA old called FRAUD! The chargeback is to give SOME relief from THAT!

    if you're not familiar with bitcoin let me summarize, it's a genius invention by an unknown individual who claims to be japanese. It's a p2p virtual currency that's not tied to any particular real life currency, like USD etc...however there are plenty of "exchange" sites that let you convert bitcoins to USD or whatever else and vis versa, and there are also plenty of sites that accept bitcoin directly for just about every product and service you can imagine. The beautiful thing about this currency is it's not centralized, no single entity controls it(hence the p2p aspect)
    BULL! If it is not tangible, and not centrally controlled, then OTHERS can do it and you have ANOTHER problem! Can you say counterfeit, devalued, inflation, FRAUD?

    and the user account records(all transactions are public and anonymous) and kept honest through the genius of encryption and math in general. The best part is it's impossible to do a charge back, and everything's open source, there are no "transfer fee's", you can have unlimited "accounts", in fact making a new one takes a single button click, etc... there's a lot of other benefits but this needs to be #1 right now. Screw paypal and their garbage policies, and all other systems that have fee's and other non-sense.

    If anyone already accepts bitcoins for their business please share your experience thus far.
    Well HEY, it is easy for ANYONE to create something, even digital, sell it, and use it, after a chargeback period, as cash with NO recourse! It wasn't delayed so much because it couldn't be done. ALL money starts that way! hat is what checks are, etc... But HOW do checks work? You are given money effectively on CREDIT. If a chargeback occurs(check bounces), they debit your account. In the past, and now, there are lawsuits, etc...

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    You have THAT right! Those that are FOR this believe that they DESERVE the money, and should NEVER have it taken away from them. The sale is merely a way to get people to give up money! NO value need be given! To debate that, to them, is to CHEAT THEM! THEY may use credit cards PLANNING to charge back, but NOBODY may EVER do that to THEM. And they publicly claim someone is a GENIUS for doing what they want! INCREDIBLE! Credit cards, in the US at least, allow chargebacks because IT IS THE LAW!!!!! And those laws were passed because they were NEEDED! Are they abused? YEP! But they are STILL needed.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, I checked out bitcoin! GUESS how much a $100 item will cost to buy, on average! Come on, GUESS!!!!!!! As much as about $124!!!!!!!! WHOA you say, HOW? OK, let me explain!

    $100 for item! You KNEW that, right?
    $4+ for spread! You pay over 4% for the spread between buy and sell. So you pay $100 for less than $96.29! NICE DEAL, HUH? And YES, that is the exchange rate at the time of this writing!
    $10 for your joining! If you joined because of an affiliate or partner, you get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?
    $10 for your becoming an affiliate or partner. You get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?

    HECK, Amazon once paid a huge amount for affiliates, but THEY had a potential profit. People cheated, and they lowered the rate there! Eventually, they lowered it EVERYWHERE. WHY? Because it was adding up. And PAYPAL once paid like $20 for referrers and gave the buyer a discount, but it was a ONE time deal.

    HOW do they make money with only 4%?
    HOW do they pay The affiliate and you a total of 20%?

    And what about the transaction charges?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      OK, I checked out bitcoin! GUESS how much a $100 item will cost to buy, on average! Come on, GUESS!!!!!!! As much as about $124!!!!!!!! WHOA you say, HOW? OK, let me explain!

      $100 for item! You KNEW that, right?
      $4+ for spread! You pay over 4% for the spread between buy and sell. So you pay $100 for less than $96.29! NICE DEAL, HUH? And YES, that is the exchange rate at the time of this writing!
      $10 for your joining! If you joined because of an affiliate or partner, you get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?
      $10 for your becoming an affiliate or partner. You get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?

      HECK, Amazon once paid a huge amount for affiliates, but THEY had a potential profit. People cheated, and they lowered the rate there! Eventually, they lowered it EVERYWHERE. WHY? Because it was adding up. And PAYPAL once paid like $20 for referrers and gave the buyer a discount, but it was a ONE time deal.

      HOW do they make money with only 4%?
      HOW do they pay The affiliate and you a total of 20%?

      And what about the transaction charges?

      Steve
      What in the world are you talking about?! You high? too much coffee? heh
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        What in the world are you talking about?! You high? too much coffee? heh
        Oh, YOU know how to pay a lot of money without losing any? PLEASE, LET US KNOW!

        I AM confused about something though. You can EASILY get a fw dollars and if you can pay without losing, then why don't you buy up every bit of realestate in the world, and relax? You don't have to concern yourself with things like bitcoin.

        I have YET to see ANYONE, or any THING, achieve that feat, and the US has declared it ILLEGAL! That which promises to pay more than it takes in is either simply a fraud(NEVER lives up to it's promise) or a PONZI SCHEME(Appears to live up to its promise until the old money and drawouts exceed the comfort level and the new money coming in). Eventually, the FTC comes in and says the offer is ILLEGAL. They WILL shut it down. If you are in timbuktu, and can't be touched, they WILL try in absencia, and prosecute any failing to honor it. They have EVEN been known to get countries to change THEIR laws, and have THEM throw the culprits in jail. And that is ONLY the start.

        But if YOU are different, HEY, LET US KNOW! I recently read about some IDIOT lawyer passing a ruling that on its face is ILLEGAL and FURTHERS the garbage of ponzi schemes, but maybe HE'll be thrown in jail or something. You can bet that potentially MILLIONS will be angry when they hear! HEY, TELL THEM your secret so you can HELP them. MAYBE you can help not only the people he CHEATED, and HIM, but the ONE that was THROWN IN JAIL for running a ponzi scheme! That guy is MADOFF.

        Oh well, this is illegal on so many levels, and the judge should be disbarred and thrown in jail. People will probably find he had bets, business dealings, or was bribed. But HERE is the case:

        Madoff/Mets case may cost $6.2 billion; payout delayed | Reuters

        Over 3 years since madoff was thrown in jail, and they are STILL having court cases! The plaintiff jerk claimed that those at the beginning should NOT recover, because THEY should have known! The ones at the end should NOT recover because they were late comers and WHO CARES! But that ones right where HE is shouldn't be affected!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Oh, YOU know how to pay a lot of money without losing any? PLEASE, LET US KNOW!

          I AM confused about something though. You can EASILY get a fw dollars and if you can pay without losing, then why don't you buy up every bit of realestate in the world, and relax? You don't have to concern yourself with things like bitcoin.

          I have YET to see ANYONE, or any THING, achieve that feat, and the US has declared it ILLEGAL! That which promises to pay more than it takes in is either simply a fraud(NEVER lives up to it's promise) or a PONZI SCHEME(Appears to live up to its promise until the old money and drawouts exceed the comfort level and the new money coming in). Eventually, the FTC comes in and says the offer is ILLEGAL. They WILL shut it down. If you are in timbuktu, and can't be touched, they WILL try in absencia, and prosecute any failing to honor it. They have EVEN been known to get countries to change THEIR laws, and have THEM throw the culprits in jail. And that is ONLY the start.

          But if YOU are different, HEY, LET US KNOW! I recently read about some IDIOT lawyer passing a ruling that on its face is ILLEGAL and FURTHERS the garbage of ponzi schemes, but maybe HE'll be thrown in jail or something. You can bet that potentially MILLIONS will be angry when they hear! HEY, TELL THEM your secret so you can HELP them. MAYBE you can help not only the people he CHEATED, and HIM, but the ONE that was THROWN IN JAIL for running a ponzi scheme! That guy is MADOFF.

          Oh well, this is illegal on so many levels, and the judge should be disbarred and thrown in jail. People will probably find he had bets, business dealings, or was bribed. But HERE is the case:

          Madoff/Mets case may cost $6.2 billion; payout delayed | Reuters

          Over 3 years since madoff was thrown in jail, and they are STILL having court cases! The plaintiff jerk claimed that those at the beginning should NOT recover, because THEY should have known! The ones at the end should NOT recover because they were late comers and WHO CARES! But that ones right where HE is shouldn't be affected!

          Steve
          You're extremely difficult to understand, must be a language issue. And I didn't invent bitcoin, but it's definitely not a "ponzi" scam, a ponzi scam is paying people with other peoples money until it eventually catches up and crashes, bitcoin is by means not that, it's backed by mathematics and no one can just magically create bitcoins without the grueling process of brute forcing bits. Unlike the USD or whatever else where they can just print more at will and is backed by absolutely nothing...
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

            You're extremely difficult to understand, must be a language issue. And I didn't invent bitcoin, but it's definitely not a "ponzi" scam, a ponzi scam is paying people with other peoples money until it eventually catches up and crashes, bitcoin is by means not that, it's backed by mathematics and no one can just magically create bitcoins without the grueling process of brute forcing bits. Unlike the USD or whatever else where they can just print more at will and is backed by absolutely nothing...
            US dollars ARE backed up by several governments and customs. HEY, it is better than a company or a few thousand people. And soon they will have options and margins, I wonder how THAT will work out.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Steve is hard to understand - perhaps because he's smarter than most here and his mind goes too damned fast. You get used to it after a while

              Here my question: Supposedly, the big problem holding Bitcoin back is that many are "hoarding" the coins. You mention "years ago" but this program is only two years or so old so the hoarding is fairly new.

              What if all of those "hoarders" decide to convert all of their bitcoins to standard currency? What if they all did it in the same month? Where would the value be sitting then? Would they be able to get their cash back?

              I'm remembering a man I met in a casino years ago. He was telling me (seriously) I should play only the $5 and $10 slot machines. He said "they pay 96% return" and he was excited about that. His said he was guaranteed to get 96% of his money back and might get more.

              I asked him if he would be happier with a 97% guaranteed return and he demanded to know where he could get that. I told to give me $100 and I'd give him back $97 all night long...and might give him more. It was like watching a light bulb go on in his face.

              Sometimes when you are excited about a program it's good to step back and run the numbers again and make sure it's of benefit to you. If it is, so be it. Others may not see it in the same light and that's normal.

              kay
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Ken -

                I agree in part. I can imagine some excellent uses. But I don't think it will grow without some major changes to the way it's done. There is a limit set to how many coins can be issued. If all those coins are held only by hoarders waiting for the price to go up or by people trading with each other's limited bitcoin sites, the potential is lost in my opinion.

                The Amazon example has been used several times - but all you buy with bitcoins is a shopping card for Amazon. You can buy that in stores for cash without paying commissions/fees or having to do currency exchange. The Amazon benefit/connection is repeated on many bitcoin sites as if it's proof of value.

                I can see parts of the globe where the ability to use such a currency could open the marketplace to those countries. I can't see the mainstream public accepting this as it is now.

                kay
                Signature
                Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Cashtree,

    Someone refers you, and you buy something for $100 from someone....

    YOU figure it costs $100, so you pay $100. The amount available is $96, because of the spread. OK, the other stuff, at least now, is open to interpretation I guess...

    $100@5.07=19.72 bitcoins bought
    19.72@4.85=95.66 dollars bought with bitcoins ~4.34%

    OH, I didn't see THIS:
    Fees and Commissions

    In order to pay for server space, network bandwidth, computer programers, and other costs TradeHill charges a small commission on every trade. This commission caps at a maximum of 0.60% of your sale and can be found in your user profile. When you create an account using a referral code your commission rate is automatically discounted 10%.
    OK, so they have a cap of $.60, or is that $1.20, per $100?

    OK, I don't remeber seeing the "of the commission" part:

    TradeHill is currently offering two referral programs. Our Affiliate and Partner programs both earn you a percentage of the commission earned on accounts you refer and also grant a 10% discount for the lifetime of the account created using that code. Your role and relationship with TradeHill determines the difference.
    and I guess THIS is open to interpretation:
    Anyone who creates an account with TradeHill using your code will generate revenue for you when they trade. That account will also get a 10% discount on trades for the lifetime of the account.
    Still, it is interesting that the rate is changing. Is it pegged to a foreign currency, or what?

    Where does the value of Bitcoin stem from? What backs up Bitcoin?

    Bitcoins have value because they are accepted as payment by many. eg. Bit Munchies, Bitcoin Wear, etc.
    When we say that a currency is backed up by gold, we mean that there's a promise in place that you can exchange the currency for gold. In a sense, you could say that Bitcoin is "backed up" by the price tags of merchants – a price tag is a promise to exchange goods for a specified amount of currency.

    It's a common misconception that bitcoins gain their value from the cost of electricity required to generate them. Cost doesn't equal value – hiring 1,000 men to shovel a big hole in the ground may be costly, but not valuable. Also, even though scarcity is a critical requirement for a useful currency, it alone doesn't make anything valuable. For example, your fingerprints are scarce, but that doesn't mean they have any exchange value.
    WOW, that doesn't say much! GOLD has inherent value no matter what, is limited, etc... Bitcoins don't and aren't.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author topgold
    I haven't tried this yet but I will look for an opportunity to use it in the future. Thank you for the information.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    I'm not so sure the FTC could shut down the currency if it wanted to. The key seems to be the exchanges. As long as exchanges exist, Bitcoins is viable. They can't shut down Pirate Bay, though they certainly have tried.

    How would they shut down exchanges in Shanghai, Havana or Riyadh?

    This is interesting stuff. If this thing grows, and there is certainly a demand for it, the IMF and Federal Reserve could become things of the past.
    Well, there are a LOT of reasons why a national currency must be national or based on an internationally recognized commodity. So I doubt it would replace the fed. If I thought it were that easy, I would try to do so. and the IMF is even harder to replace.

    Shutting down an exchange in the country is pretty easy. just filter out the packets. The government wants to make that as simple as pushing a button. Until then, there are threats and suits of tier one servers.

    Ken, ever hear of the G7, etc... G7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One thing they do is trade currency to have a parity. It also means that they all accept others currency. and a number of things are valued in dollars. The US dollar would be worth FAR less without that.

    As for that bitcoin forum? The idea of the relative value of currency having ANYTHING to do with how much things cost is LUDICROUS! Swiss currency has traditionally been lower than the dollar, but they STILL have rolex watches, etc... Some watches EASLY cost 10 times what you might expect. One of the LOWEST value currencies is japanese, and it is STILL expensive! Did YOU know that the indian currency is actually worth MORE than japanese? Yet THEY tend to have lower cost labor! As for greece? I DOUBT they are really behind the times. Western europe is often known as western europe as if they were one country. They DO share technology, etc... And INDIA tends to be more behind the times. Certainly not the WHOLE country, but a good chunk of it.

    I WOULD say why greece was in trouble, but that would get political. Suffice it to say that too many were promised that their retirement would be too rosy.

    steve
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      You are singularly uninformed. There are no reasons that a people's currency would not work just as well as a national currency other than force used by governments or no demand for the currency.

      Do you honestly think that the US would filter out the packets to stop an exchange conducted by a foreign corporation? I expect they could just nuke them, too.

      If you could read for contextual meaning, you would understand that I was talking about legal means --not a naked act of aggression upon a foreign corporation.

      As for your insanely pedantic question about G7. Do you think you could be any more insulting?

      Currencies are commodities traded on open markets. That's where their value is determined.

      Before you start to rattle on about the yuan, keep in mind that it is not traded on the open market, but is manipulated by the Chinese government. So no one accepts payments in Chinese currency except the Chinese.

      And yes, the relative values of currencies most assuredly affect the price of goods. There is absolutely no way they could not.

      The rest of your post is too obtuse to make any sense of. All prices --yes even currency prices-- are based on supply and demand.
      And what creates the demand for the currency? I mean YEAH, some charitable organizations have "scrip" that some, but certainly NOT all, organizations accept. There may be coupons, or store credit, but it rarely goes far. And yeah, some times large groups create a currency but it often fails and I wonder if it was ever really fully supported. The european community did a LOT before they put out the euro. And the US doesn't provide any FORCE for use of their currency. For most of my life apparently, there was NO tie. NOW, they have a lot of crazy limitations on barter that apply.

      HECK, if you donate $1000 to an organization, and get a gift valued at $100, they figure you donated $900 EVEN if you could have bought the gift at less than $100. But if you want to buy something in the US, the dollar is the only thing you generally have a good chance of buying it with. I don't know if the US does anything to limit banks abilities to provide foreign currencies, but some DO provide foreign currencies. HECK, I used to live near a store that EVEN provided polish money when THEIR system was 100% internal.

      As for china, that is an odd one, and I have to say I don't fully understand it, but if they DO still have fully an internal currency, then they obviously have more control over it, and it kind of limits what you are saying about markets. After all, foreign countries try to determine relative value and safety. The more that can be purchased, and the more stable, the greater the relative value. And china would, with a fully internal currency, have to trade value. They obviously have a lot to trade. And that would give them foreign currency they could use elsewhere when needed. As long as US dollars have a value elsewhere, the companies can trade internally for more yuan if needed, and use the dollars for foreign purchases if they can't trade.

      HEY, the US has done similar thngs! They have frozen funds, subpoenaed logs, forced companies to refund, limit email, store email, reveal customers/methods, thrown people in jail, etc... You're KIDDING, RIGHT? OHICSM!

      And you think currencies have ALWAYS traded on open markets? You think that a dollar denominated market can dictate much of what a dollar is worth?

      And YEAH, the relative value of currencies change the value that shows in a given currency. But some have historically been low, and have not been countries known for having a high standard of living, etc...

      And The G7 controls them through supply and demand! If the dollar gets weak, others buy, which reduces supply and shows demand. ALSO, it moves their currency having the opposite effect, which helps bring parity to them.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    Let me summarize and clarify some things since there seems to be some confusion about bitcoin

    1)there are absolutely no fees to send/recv bitcoins, if you use an exchange service like mtgox or tradehill to convert to some currency then sure they'll be a fee of which that paticular companies determines. You can however buy many many products and services with bitcoins directly online with no fees.

    2)the value of bitcoins are only growing in value as time goes on, this is by design. When bitcoin first came on the scene a few years ago it was very easy to grind away with your home CPU to generate bitcoins(and they were only worth pennies at the time), as each bitcoin was made it increased the effort needed to make the next one by a great margin. Now a few years later a CPU is out of question, way too slow and uses too much energy, even using a GPU(much better suited for bitcoin mining) you'd still need to join groups of people to generate one. Bitcoins value was selling around $15 for awhile on average(so had you got in it years ago you could of sold for $$ today) after mtgox got their database hacked and some users bitcoins stolen(keep in mind this was mtgox fault no one elses) right now I think it's standing around $4. Bitcoins are limited to 21 million, there will never be anymore than that, that's why individual bitcoins increase in value, due to how hard it gets to make new ones. It's ok though because you can buy/sell using decimals .0001 bitcoin for example.

    3)Bitcoin doesn't use encryption, however all transaction(the sender/user are anonymous) but the transaction itself is completely public, and as such you can see all bitcoins an address has received and sent, and because of that it's pretty easy for the gov to track someone, regardless if they tried to separate and send bitcoins to a bunch of different accounts, if they ever use an exchange service or have something shipped for example, at the end of the trail will lead right to them. The only exception to this is if they sold bitcoins via a physical medium(like a pendrive, since all your bitcoins are stored in a file called wallet.dat) Granted in that case the gov would then be focused on the new owner of them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Absolutely. People here seem to forget that not all businesses accept credit cards. Sometimes, the only thing they accept is wire or direct bank transfer. Or you may pay cash but forget to get your receipt.

      With bitcoin, transactions are available for the world to see. Nobody can refute that you paid X amount to Y. No need for subpoeanas or warrants or anything like that. No question marks about the paper receipt you reproduce. Irrefutable proof of a transaction without the need for anyone to go digging.

      Finally, consider that there are regular transactions of over 10,000 USD on bitcoin. Sure, this is nothing compared to the 20 million or similar order transactions done by investment banks on a daily basis but you must remember that this currency is in its infancy and the money supply is very low so far. A great many people obviously have faith in this currency if they are transacting in such amounts. And even if these amounts do not rise significantly, so what, neither do transactions for "pay and wave" technology either.
      And the very fact that there ARE regular transactions over 10kUSD is WHY this is going to come under very close scrutiny and will be eventually 'forced' to comply with the various international regs surrounding 'money' movement.

      Anything that offers the ability to move large sums of currency of any kind with minimal identity verification is going to come under close scrutiny.

      Mel
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      • Profile picture of the author Melody
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        Here we go again, the KYC etc.

        Bitcoin doesn't have to be a currency that does absolutely everything. But it occupies a unique position.

        Now let's compare it to pay and wave technology for small transactions which, I hope you agree, are not covered by KYC considering that a person can buy an RFID card in several countries around the world and use it anonymously or can use their cellphone to do the same thing, again anonymously. I can give several examples of this around the world.

        Let's forget about large transactions. On these small ones alone, bitcoin is an easy substitute. Already I have seen the first incarnation of cellphone software that allows for easy bitcoin transacting. If something can be used as a substitute and has unique features of its own then I can't see the problem here.



        And even for the large transactions, you say it can be "forced". This is simply not true. It is decentralised.

        Look at the war on drugs, it doesn't work. People want to take drugs and they will do. If people want to use bitcoins, no government can ever stop them. The actions are independent of government.

        KYC is a different matter. Governments can force intermediaries to do this. With bitcoins, there are no intermediaries.

        One of the first ways that this will likely explode is in payments being sent back home by foreign workers. When they see how easy it is to remit money (probably when better software is made) but without exorbitant charges, I predict a rise in adoption of bitcoins.


        You seem so sure of yourself that KYC will stop bitcoin gaining traction (and btw I know exactly how KYC works, I have extensive experience of it in the workplace for several Fortune companies). Please explain to me how any government can enforce KYC legislation on bitcoin users? It is simply not possible. Bitcoin easily dodges any kind of legislation. It is not affected by legislation.
        LOL - I am done with this thread. Dealing with money remittance and transactional regulations is what I do for a living. I speak at international conferences on the topic and consult to multi-national companies. IM is a hobby for me - some women take up knitting - I build websites.

        Nothing I have said here is my opinion - it is fact based on 20+ years experience. I am sorry it doesn't jive with what you WANT to believe or think - but I am telling you what lies ahead for Bitcoin in the real world.

        Small transactions are fine - my comment above was addressing the large transactions - and I repeat what I said previously - if BitCoin is going to allow these to take place - they will be forced to comply or shut down.

        They are NOT a country unto themselves. They have servers that reside SOMEWHERE. They CAN be shut down. If you think they are beyond the reach of any government - LOL - honestly, I can't even come up with a response to that one!!

        I have wasted enough time here trying to explain nicely what the realities are here. You obviously have more time to waste than I do.

        Done. Good night, folks. I have businesses to run.

        Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Clark - You have completely misconstrued everything that I have said. As I said before there is no point in continuing in this dialogue. You don't want to hear any relevant facts, and you really don't want to have a discussion with anyone - you just want to insist that you are right, and ignore any potential issues/problems or roadblocks that anyone else has brought up.

    As to not commenting on this statement:
    Please explain to me how any government can enforce KYC legislation on bitcoin users? It is simply not possible. Bitcoin easily dodges any kind of legislation. It is not affected by legislation.

    My comment was a 'tongue in cheek' aside to the absolute absurdity of that comment - not because I had no response. Peer to Peer networks are taken down almost daily by multi-national task forces because they are used to run payment fraud schemes. They are NOT outside of the realm of any government regulation. Very few of these takedowns ever make the general news but I can assure you that that they are not outside of all government overview.

    Trust me - when it comes to money movement - if one of the big 7 wants the system taken down badly enough - it will come down.

    Again - I WORK in this area - this IS my expertise. I deal with OFAC, FINCEN, FINTRAC and a barrel of other initialed agencies all the time - and it is very different than the type of KYC you dealt with for a Fortune 500 company. We have to drill down through all of the shell corporations to the ULTIMATE beneficiary of every settlement that we send to an international merchant - and we know the names and addresses of every major shareholder and director of the companies down the foodchain.

    You can expound theory as much as you want to - but I will re-state what I said in my initial post - I applaud their effort - but BitCoin has a bumpy, tough road ahead of them.

    Personally, I wish BitCoin the best of luck, and I hope they succeed. But will they do so in their present form? That will be very difficult at best.

    But it is nice to know that at least BitCoin understands compliance - even though you apparently do not.

    Melody
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      It is, in effect, a people's bank. I see the hoarding as no more than saving -- which should strengthen the currency, not weaken it.
      Bitcoins value was selling around $15 for awhile on average(so had you got in it years ago you could of sold for $$ today) after mtgox got their database hacked and some users bitcoins stolen(keep in mind this was mtgox fault no one elses) right now I think it's standing around $4.
      If you have savings in a bank, the bank is fine. If many people decide to take their cash out of the bank in a short period of time, the bank relies on its ability to pull cash from a central bank.

      From what I see, as long people hoard bitcoins, it's fine. But if they decided to sell quickly, that could be quite different story.

      The OP continues to refer to "years ago" but Bitcoin is only about 2 years old, isn't it? So - in two years value has gone from $15 to $4.

      An excellent article listing both pros and cons - and predictions - is on

      L020: Is Bitcoin the Wikileaks of Monetary*Policy? - LAUNCH -

      L019: Bitcoin P2P Currency: The Most Dangerous Project We've Ever*Seen - LAUNCH -
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        If you have savings in a bank, the bank is fine. If many people decide to take their cash out of the bank in a short period of time, the bank relies on its ability to pull cash from a central bank.
        Places like the US also require them to have minimums, and usually insure the money.

        From what I see, as long people hoard bitcoins, it's fine. But if they decided to sell quickly, that could be quite different story.

        The OP continues to refer to "years ago" but Bitcoin is only about 2 years old, isn't it? So - in two years value has gone from $15 to $4.

        An excellent article listing both pros and cons - and predictions - is on

        L020: Is Bitcoin the Wikileaks of Monetary*Policy? - LAUNCH -
        You make a few good points there. How about the following....

        1. In the example given in that page, about the stock brokers, it is all BULL!!!!!! I remember seeing brokers like Charles shwab do that, BEFORE the internet even opened up! And the government controls EVERY aspect. It is downright fraud to quote prices without having access to the stock exchanges and few organizations have that capability. Without using one of those organizations, you are out of luck. They generally cost a lot for multiple quotes, charge more for realtime(they are usually delayed 15-20 minutes), and charge even MORE to allow you to resell it. And it is illegal to sell to the general public unless you are licensed. The government CAN and HAS invalidated both agreements.

        And a lot of the companies on the web either fail, originally had some part in the original market anyway, or are bought by another company. HECK, I opened up a stock brokerage account with one organization, it was bought by another which was bought by another that apparently was always around. I opened another account, with another discount company that seemed new, and it turns out they are owned by UBS! So you NEVER know!

        Amazon ALMOST failed! They were practically on their last breath and some companies were failing and a bookstore used a "patent" amazon claimed to have, and they morphed into a sales platform and THEN they started making money.

        2. If bitcoins went from 15 to 4 ESPECIALLY with the weakening of the dollar, isn't the trend DOWN? The idea of a peer payment system is NOT new! There are company credits and even PARTNER credits. I have stayed at hotels, for example, with vouchers from airlines. They get enough side business, referrals, and business from the airlines, that it is in their best interest to do so. And there is scrip. In ALL cases though, the seller must get some value for the act. If every bitcoin were sold now, the value might be close to 0!

        3. One question though. HOW do you buy them or sell them? OK, MAYBE you can buy them by selling something else, but how do you sell them for cash? The article implies you don't need to use bank accounts in any way.

        BTW anyone remember the big scare? Remember when all the payment providers started getting shut down? Remember stormpay.com? How about 12dp?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          Everyone can have an opinion on future price movement based on historic data but ultimately the market will prove some right and some wrong.

          It's a highly volatile market though. Personally, I think it has now stabilised at $5. Some will disagree with me but we can each only speculate and neither view is more credible than the other's.
          Yeah, who knows, but it certainly hasn't stabilized. The few times I looked at it, it changed. Granted, the dollar is probably no mre stable, but it shows how value can change.


          Payments are sent from one account to another using a client program on your PC, other computer, smartphone etc.

          Whoever sends the bitcoins wants something in return, be it a good, a service, payment of dollars or other currency (whether via bank account, cash or whatever). It's true to say that bank accounts are not needed.
          Yep, but how do you buy or sell with a common currency. The person to figure THAT out could make BILLIONS! Heck, a LOT is made every second by those that can using the current conventions. To give you an idea of how much, only the TINIEST of portions are controlled by paypal, google, or amazon, not to mention the millions of others. ALL use one of maybe a dozen methods that are tied to banks. When people want to anonymize it, they may use some method like western union or amex travelers checks, but those aren't automated.

          Yes, many of those virtual currencies were engaging in ponzi activities themselves. However, virtual currencies appararently backed on gold are far different to bitcoins and other similar p2p cryptocurrencies.
          Actually, stormpay WASN'T! Most that went out of business weren't. I added 12dp because some treated it like a bank, talked about it like the FUTURE, and touted it. EVEN as it died and people lost their money, people blamed stormpay, etc... But I think it is clear stormpay tried to leverage a normal merchant account, which is illegal(I THOUGHT about doing it on or before 1999, and asked my processor. They said NO! CCBILL, IIRC, said you need a SPECIAL license to do so.), and supporting 12dp went SO far that they were told to STOP! They internalized their funding by having an auction site. Ebay had too big a market though.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author alexdan2
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
    Coming from the RMT industry, I see how bitcoins could work now and how it will work in the future. For years I would earn a virtual currency, and then exchanged it for USD or CNY on a daily basis. Will bitcoins last? Not likely. 1000 bitcoins won't have nearly the same value of 1000 bitcoins in a week, and the market Will fluctuate that quickly and will almost never be for good.

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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

      Coming from the RMT industry, I see how bitcoins could work now and how it will work in the future. For years I would earn a virtual currency, and then exchanged it for USD or CNY on a daily basis. Will bitcoins last? Not likely. 1000 bitcoins won't have nearly the same value of 1000 bitcoins in a week, and the market Will fluctuate that quickly and will almost never be for good.

      RMT - YouTube
      http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post4788879 check out point number two. Short term fluctuations, sure, we're seeing that now, but long term, the value of a bitcoin has no choice but to increase overtime.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, I only read the free part, but what it said is:

    1. The real author isn't known.
    2. There is a central point of failure, that was breached and lowered the value.
    3. It was as low as less than a penny, and as high as $29, and is now closer to $5.

    It WOULD be interesting if this were tracked to determine how much is really spent.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    I'm happy this thread has been revived! As Bitcoin is still going strong!
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    • Profile picture of the author orb
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      I'm happy this thread has been revived! As Bitcoin is still going strong!
      Yeah I don't think it's going to die out any time soon, I was one of those people who got bought into the hype though and thought the price per btc was going to go up over $100, luckily I never got around to buying any...
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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        Originally Posted by orb View Post

        Yeah I don't think it's going to die out any time soon, I was one of those people who got bought into the hype though and thought the price per btc was going to go up over $100, luckily I never got around to buying any...
        BTC is sadly no where near $100, yet! mtgox.com is top exchange site and average right now is $4.87! which is impressive considering just a few years ago BTC's were worth pennies. The highest i've seen it go to is $15 but that didn't stay long, overtime it's definitely going to increase in value because of the fix limit of bitcoins. Trust me the early adopters some of them maybe sitting on 100's of thousands of dollars right now, if they decided to sell at current market value.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wild54Pe
    So what is your going rate? How many chickens will it cost me to buy what you are selling?
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  • Profile picture of the author seanster
    I think many people here are looking to black and white. Will everyone accept it? Of course not. Will many yes. But until we make attempts and learn, we will never get a real alternative currency off the ground. Just like many IM careers, fail a few times until you get it right.

    I think what will happen, in order to get major acceptance, something drastic HAS to happen to the current monetary system for others to seek alternatives. Otherwise, its just going to get slow acceptance, and a few bad "hacks" will kill it. And many insider sources say its around the corner.

    I surely don't want to carry gold everywhere, the chances of getting robbed, seem higher then digital currency.

    Anyone here accepting it? Curious of the pushback your getting. PM me, I may want to test a Bitcoin tool soon on it that you might like.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mirnova
    Lets face the hard reality folks...

    Fiat money and the fractionated central banking systems are nothing more then systems of enslavement.

    They steal from all that use them for the benefit of a small few running the systems.

    They harm you. They harm me. They harm progress of humanity.

    The banking system is ripe for a reset.

    A decentralized means of exchanged of wealth is the solution. And for the first time in history it is possible because of the existing networks.

    Bitcoin has its problems. But it is a good prototype for the eventual solution.

    I would invite you to checkout a few links...

    The American Dream Part 1 - The Most Important Cartoon Ever Made! - YouTube

    Thrive

    https://ripplepay.com/

    https://raindroplet.info

    And of course:

    Bitcoin - P2P digital currency

    ... Imagine a world for a moment free of fiat currency. Where you and I can easily exchange wealth with a decentralized application. Where 100% of the wealth goes to those that created the value. Where the confiscation of wealth through inflation and artificially created bubbles simply is not possible any longer. Where wars motivated by profit can no longer be sustained.

    That world is possible folks.

    If it's at all viable in your market I would suggest experimenting offering Bitcoin, Ripplepay, Raindroplet, and any alternative means of exchange outside the current centralized banking module a try.

    By doing so we all benefit.

    It's an idea who's time has come.

    Okay enough of my rant for today...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Mirnova View Post

      Lets face the hard reality folks...

      Fiat money and the fractionated central banking systems are nothing more then systems of enslavement.

      They steal from all that use them for the benefit of a small few running the systems.

      They harm you. They harm me. They harm progress of humanity.

      The banking system is ripe for a reset.

      A decentralized means of exchanged of wealth is the solution. And for the first time in history it is possible because of the existing networks.
      *****DUH*****

      Bitcoin has its problems. But it is a good prototype for the eventual solution.
      NOT EVEN CLOSE! PLEASE think before saying such things. You do NOT want bitcoin as an actual currency. In fact, it IS a fiat currency! A fat currency has value ONLY because it is traded! If you have to make an appeal, as you are, then it is a FIAT currency!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Mirnova
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        *****DUH*****

        NOT EVEN CLOSE! PLEASE think before saying such things. You do NOT want bitcoin as an actual currency. In fact, it IS a fiat currency! A fat currency has value ONLY because it is traded! If you have to make an appeal, as you are, then it is a FIAT currency!

        Steve
        Read that again Steve! Bitcoin has its problems, but what it is doing is spearheading the way for a new paradigm in exchange of value.

        And unlike fiat paper currency, you can't inflate Bitcoins with the few computer strokes or a printing press. What does that mean to the user? How does that make it completely different then existing fiat currencies? *****DUH**** your words... think about it.

        If you're really putting it in the same basket as a fiat currency then don't bother reading further, c'ause ya just don't get it.

        I would take Bitcoins at their current price over US Dollars any day. The inflation of Bitcoins is constrained by the algorithm. The inflation of USD is constrained by (pause for dramatic effect)...

        NOTHING!

        Having said that, in that aspect, Ripplepay is a better solution. The problem with it currently is its centralized nature. If it gets any traction it will be shut down.

        A decentralized version of Ripplepay like Bitcoin would be a elegant, much needed solution to a very pressing problem.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Mirnova View Post

          Read that again Steve! Bitcoin has its problems, but what it is doing is spearheading the way for a new paradigm in exchange of value.
          There is NOTHING new about it!

          And unlike fiat paper currency, you can't inflate Bitcoins with the few computer strokes or a printing press. What does that mean to the user? How does that make it completely different then existing fiat currencies? *****DUH**** your words... think about it.
          People have spoken about how you CAN print more, and it HAS happened in the past! And the currency value has fluctuated a LOT! Try buying a CAR with bitcon and see how far you get.

          If you're really putting it in the same basket as a fiat currency then don't bother reading further, c'ause ya just don't get it.
          YEP, I have seen this dtuff come and go. EVEN digital "currencies" that claim to have real value!

          I would take Bitcoins at their current price over US Dollars any day. The inflation of Bitcoins is constrained by the algorithm. The inflation of USD is constrained by (pause for dramatic effect)...

          NOTHING!
          There ARE more people fighting and lobbying for the dollar to become more reasonable again. NOBODY seems to be doing that for bitcoins!

          Having said that, in that aspect, Ripplepay is a better solution. The problem with it currently is its centralized nature. If it gets any traction it will be shut down.

          A decentralized version of Ripplepay like Bitcoin would be a elegant, much needed solution to a very pressing problem.
          It NEEDS to be centralized. If it isn't, it can be copied, etc... and will lose value. Dollars have the S/N, laws, and various agencies to try to prevent that. How do you think credit cards work? WHY do you figure they work that way?

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Mirnova
    Steve, if you can't understand the problem of centralization and the solution decentralization presents then there is no point in this discussion.

    If you really think lobbying will have any effect on the dollars value then this really, really, really is a pointless discussion.

    Steve keep those dollars. Know when the Euro goes south, the dollar will be next. Perhaps you can reference this post then.

    Good luck my friend...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Mirnova View Post

      Steve, if you can't understand the problem of centralization and the solution decentralization presents then there is no point in this discussion.

      If you really think lobbying will have any effect on the dollars value then this really, really, really is a pointless discussion.

      Steve keep those dollars. Know when the Euro goes south, the dollar will be next. Perhaps you can reference this post then.

      Good luck my friend...
      You show things HERE that prove it isn't decentralized. You're right about lobbying though. If EVERYONE were lobbying, NOBODY would because they would have what they want. I deal with dollars ONLY because others do.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author coredump
    For those who want to accept bitcoin there are some merchant solutions listed on this wiki page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Bit...ayment_systems

    (the same page also contains links to all kinds of merchants selling goods and services for bitcoins etc.)

    BTW, the exchange rate went up to almost $6 per BTC lately, see: Bitcoin Charts / Markets
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  • Profile picture of the author spiker12
    So all you folks negative on Bitcoin must think Torrent is a bad idea and in danger of being shut down by the feds too right?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by spiker12 View Post

      So all you folks negative on Bitcoin must think Torrent is a bad idea and in danger of being shut down by the feds too right?
      What's your point? REALLY, I see NO point to your obvious attempt at an argument.

      I am AGAINST bit coin because it is a simple barter system, and obviously has a lot of HYPE!
      I actually considered doing something like torrent decades(about 30 years) ago. Doing it with what I had would have been too expensive, etc... Not many homes back then had more than one line, and high bandwidth was unheard of. Even 1200baud was rare. The nice part about torrent is that, in theory, it could be fault tolerant, and faster, but you probably think it is something else.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Reviving this thread - yet again - after a year?

        Who are you people arguing with? If you want to spend your money on Bitcoins, fine with me. It's your money.

        If you believe you will convince people here of the "value" - you are mistaken. Didn't happen last year - won't happen this year.
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