Why bitcoin needs to become #1 right now

by 218 replies
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The problem with debit/credit cards is their tied to a horribly broken system. Users can chargeback up to 6 months after purchase...yeah I said 6 months, and there's really nothing you can do short of submit anything to help your case, if the company even bothers to ask you, even then the chances of you winning are slim. This is a serious problem for anyone selling anything, it can get your accounts locked(such as paypal) it can hurt your reputation and business and it can make you lose product, and tons of money.

Enters bitcoin

if you're not familiar with bitcoin let me summarize, it's a genius invention by an unknown individual who claims to be japanese. It's a p2p virtual currency that's not tied to any particular real life currency, like USD etc...however there are plenty of "exchange" sites that let you convert bitcoins to USD or whatever else and vis versa, and there are also plenty of sites that accept bitcoin directly for just about every product and service you can imagine. The beautiful thing about this currency is it's not centralized, no single entity controls it(hence the p2p aspect), and the user account records(all transactions are public and anonymous) and kept honest through the genius of encryption and math in general. The best part is it's impossible to do a charge back, and everything's open source, there are no "transfer fee's", you can have unlimited "accounts", in fact making a new one takes a single button click, etc... there's a lot of other benefits but this needs to be #1 right now. Screw paypal and their garbage policies, and all other systems that have fee's and other non-sense.

If anyone already accepts bitcoins for their business please share your experience thus far.
#off topic forum #bitcoin
  • Banned
    This sounds interesting. What is the exchange rate for bitcoins virtual currency for USD? What kind of products are most commonly sold using their system?


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  • check out http://bitcoin.org/,http://bitcoin.org/about.html the two top exchange sites are mtgox.com and tradehill.com. You can buy literally just about anything with bitcoins directly too, from physical goods(amazon stuff, etc...) to virtual(hosting etc...) just have to find sites selling them, theres a big list somewhere, will have to find it. The exchange rates are very cheap, it depends on what people sell them for because bitcoins grow in value over time, that's the way the system works see bitcoins are made through people using GPU's to pump out blockchains, every one that is made it makes it that much harder to make another, so years ago people who first got on bitcoins made them with their own pc...and now adays last time I checked 1 bitcoin is worth $15 on average, and to generate a bitcoin you need tons of people with GPU's(graphic cards, they're much faster for this than CPU, and use much less energy). So you can either use your hardware to get on that, or buy with money, theres a limit to total number of bitcoins that will ever be made is 20 million something, that doesn't sound like a lot but remember the math needed to make new ones increases tremendously so will take tons of years. Also bitcoin isn't limited to just 1 you can have .0001 bitcoin etc...not trying to confuse you, the point of this is it's very very well designed, and prevents global, permante inflation which is important. The CPU power the community contributes to make bitcoins makes it near impossible for hackers to manipulate anything, even the government...worse they could do is try and use super computers which may make a temporary crash.
  • You say "amazon stuff" but does amazon.com even accept bitcoins?

    I'm gonna say the idea is intriguing, but I don't think it's really accepted enough for someone to transition their whole business to only be accepting bitcoins.

    Not really convinced about your proposal, one bit.
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    • Not amazon directly no, see the only issue with bitcoin is big companies are scared about the legality of it, it's been around for years and i'd imagine when it gets big enough to threaten banks they're going to use all the power they have to shut it down, but as it stands there is nothing that says it's illegal. As long as you pay taxes I don't see why the gov would care, short of lack of control, which yeah, in itself could be why they may not like it. But then again Tor still exist? while not the same, is still similar concept(bitcoin uses Tor for boot strapping, connects to ircd through it to get some inital bitcoin users)
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  • EFF and Bitcoin | Electronic Frontier Foundation
  • Fixed that for you.
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    • Nice. Typical quality post from you, i'm sure someone on this forum benefits from all your negative contributions, i'm not sure how, but whatever. Good day.
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    • Yes, right now bitcoin is primarily used for illegal or "grey hat" purchases such as drugs, porn or other "unsavoury" products where the purchaser wishes to remain annonymous.

      As a buyer, why would I use bitcoin and give up the consumer protection of a Credit Card or PayPal?

      Mahlon
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  • Yeah, as a buyer I would never use something that doesn't protect my purchase - especially on the internet!

    I know if I go down to my local store and hand over cash I at least have some recourse when they don't deliver on what was bought. (Whether that be a confrontation or through government bodies put in place to protect local consumers.) If I use a made-up currency that markets no chargebacks as a feature then how do I get my money back when I don't get what I paid for? The safety net of a Mastercard of Visa credit card is one of the resons people are now happy to buy online.

    What happens when this mysterious Japanese man disappears and takes his system with him? As a seller I like the security of working with a company that has proven over many years that they aren't going to run away with my cash.

    I have read a bit on Bartercard before but have only come across a handful of businesses that promote it. They are great ideas in theory but unless a whole lot of people on both sides of the counter jump onto the bandwagon then it is a risky game.
  • So, basically a merchant can sell me a blank ebook and get away with it clean. No way in hell this type of system will be popular. The buyers don't sound like they would have any type of protection. Who in their right mind would trust someone using that system over the likes of Paypal or CC payments? I am not saying the system we currently have is perfect, but it sure as hell sounds better than this bitcoin $#!t

    In every business, there are always a small percentage of buyers who won't pay their bills, try to get refund etc... It's just one of the cost of doing business.
  • Check this out people are actually printing their own currency I thought this was illegal but I guess not
    How to Print Your Own Money, Build Community & Not Get Arrested by the Feds : TreeHugger
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    • I'm not interested in the arguments for/against paypal, for/again US currency...and if you aren't selling to anyone then you would be using bitcoin to buy (somewhere) or to "invest". That's up to you.

      You complained about chargebacks - that would indicate you have something you are selling. Calling potential buyers conditioned and confused might give you a crusade - but it won't get sales. Unless, of course, you are selling bitcoin in one way or another.

      I just want to have both sides on the table so new marketers reading this thraed won't think this is a common payment method when you are selling something online.

      kay
    • It's not illegal, many companies like walt disney world has their "own money" though on it states it's not legal tender outside of their theme park. There's a thread about bitcoin and this, hold on

      https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18087.20
      https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6000.0

      "Technically, and legally, bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency. Also, bitcoins aren't really "coined" by anyone, not even virtually. They are discovered."
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  • I never said it was common, in fact that's why I briefly explained what it was(if it was common I wouldn't need to do that), and why it should be more popular. Don't get me wrong it is popular, but not paypal level popular. Also I understand as a business my job is to be nice, in fact the worse thing you can do is be rude to customers, I strongly believe in over the top kindness. Paypal being as big as they are, don't understand that concept, and as a business owner and as a consumer I just really can not stand them.And I can appreciate the genius of bitcoin and why it should be more mainstream and globally accepted, you, from your comments sound afraid of it, afraid that without someone overseeing it, protecting you, you're at risk. I tell you what risk is, paypal having any control over your business what so ever. When they lock all your funds and force you to send ridiculous amount of info to unlock it(which realistically could take months) then you'll understand. Try calling them too, after 20 mins of robots tell the person at the other end the situation, see how they treat you, see how fast your problem is resolved, even if it was a accident on their part...months, i'm telling you, horrible company. That's not security, not in my eyes, that's being conditioned to think they have your back, when in reality it's further from the truth. Does every single person that uses paypal have problems? ofcourse not, they're not stupid, if they did that then they couldn't have things swept under the wrong so easy. Anyway it's not just paypal, it's the foundation of what paypal stands for, and what they can do, even chargebacks that go behind paypal are a problem, it's users abusing a system that's not meant for that, it's meant for that. Bitcoin prevents abuse at its core. Can you have bitcoins stolen? sure, they're kept in a single file on your computer, but that's not bitcoins fault, that's you not protecting your money.
  • Banned
    I'll take bitcoin seriously when I can buy groceries and fill up my car with gas with it.
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  • Virtual currencies have come and gone before. BitCoin is the current popular system. Even though it is established and trusted by many, it is inherently risky to invest money in. My advice would be to keep your real money out for now.
  • Agree with sbucciarel.

    From wikipedia:
    Bitcoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    • During early June 2011, there have been media reports of even more individuals purchasing "mining rigs", hardware-customized computers specifically dedicated to generate bitcoin hashes based on GPU, following the rise in Bitcoin prices in the past months.[70]
    • On 19 June 2011, Bitcoin prices against the USD remained high, despite a security breach of the Mt. Gox Bitcoin Exchange, which notably caused the leaking of usernames, emails and MD5 hashed passwords of over 60,000 users onto the Web. A majority of those passwords were also salted. Passwords that were not salted had not been used recently. The price of a Bitcoin briefly dropped to $0.01 on the Mt. Gox exchange (but remained unaffected on other exchanges) after a hacker allegedly used credentials from a Mt. Gox auditor's compromised computer to illegally transfer a large number of Bitcoins to himself and sell them all, creating a massive "ask" order at any price. Within minutes the price rebounded to over $15 before Mt. Gox shut down their exchange and canceled all trades that happened during the hacking period.[71] The exchange rate of Bitcoins quickly returned to near pre-crash values.[72][73][74][75]
    • July 26, 2011, Bitomat re-opened after being unavailable for 5 days with the message that they had lost all funds on site after rebooting their Amazon EC2 instance.[76][77]
    • August 5, 2011, MyBitcoin issued a statement that they had been compromised and lost 49% of their user's funds.[78]
    • September 9, 2011, people from Something Awful's forum hacked into the Bitcointalk forums, stole the password hash, and injected code to alter the site into a Cosbycoin (successor cryptocurrency) forum complete with gags.[79][8

    I'm going to stay far far away from bitcoints, at least for professional use.
  • Have to chime in here on this one because I some pretty serious experience in this particular area (like 25+ years actually). Bitcoins, whether a great idea or a stupid one, is going to run into serious issues very soon simply due to the anonymous side of the system and here is why: since 9/11, there has been a very steep increase in the documentation required to verify the identities of people & businesses making international money transfers. All money movement falls under various regs grouped together loosely under the popular term of "KYCC" - Know Your Customer.

    The reason behind the regs is to stop the flow of funding for terrorists groups, money laundering etc.

    I was the keynote speaker at an international payments conference in South America a few years ago - and was seriously harassed from the audience by the Florida Dr that founded the first EGold company when I stated that these types of companies and the 'traders' that were selling the 'EGold' were going to be closed down due to the fact that these companies business models were going to attract the wrong type of 'customer'. He is now under house arrest, and trying to figure out where he went wrong....I am still considered an expert in the international payments industry. Go figure....

    The bottom line is that 'anonymous' and 'money' simply don't play well together in today's world. It's not the fault of BitCoin or EGold or any of the other similar concepts - but they do inevitably attract the wrong people to use the system - and that leads to the intervention of law enforcement worldwide.

    It's a different world today - and virtually every penny moved online is tracked in one way or another.

    Melody
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    • If that were the case he would have discussed the problems of this payment method and debated alternate opinions. He would have acknowledged the problems of getting customers to use an unknown payment method - instead of inferring customers were stupid.

      The OP is arguing "for" Bitcoin and using the thread as a vehicle to complain about Paypal.

      If you look for Bitcoin what you find is a system feeding on itself. Results are about the value, currency exchange and hoarding/trading of Bitcoin. Merchants "accepting" are listed as Bitcoin merchants rather than a list of known sellers.

      As Melody said, anonymous and money do not relate well. Any payment system that is going to work will have to be trusted and reputable....and backed by something more than a guy in Japan.

      kay
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  • There's a pretty good article about BitCoin here...

    An Emerging Free Market Currency

    I'm still a little confused about how exactly it works. But it is an intriguing idea.

    Colm
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    • After all the crap regarding e-gold I think i'll pass
  • Banned
    This reminds me of another bartering system with its own currency. I think it was called ITEX.

    Ideas like this do have the potential to work well, but they also can be easily abused, like any capitalist market. Personally, I find virtual currencies to be a very interesting subject, and I'm glad the OP brought BitCoin to my attention, despite all its faults.

    Virtual currency seems to be a growing trend for the Internet. Look at facebook credits; they used to be used for just social games, but now they're being used for physical goods as well.

    It probably won't take off as a mainstream method for purchasing things online, but it's still very interesting.
  • It IS an intriguing idea but again - given the anonymity of the platform and most governments requiring full transparency in money movement - it's going to be a long tough battle for any system like this to come out on top.

    People think that PayPal doesn't require any ID verification because basically you sign up and can send money to almost anyone - but think again! When you add a bank acct or credit card to the platform - they are validating your identity in multiple ways and they are licensed as a money remitter all over the world, which is a nasty, expensive process to go through.

    BitCoin may make it - but they have a lot of hurdles in front of them at this point.

    Mel
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    • Banned
      I agree. However, in order for BitCoin to become mainstream, they will need to get more users on a regular basis. I think it would be a good idea for everyone to get an account there and experiment with their system a little. At the very least, it will make an interesting learning experience, and it could possibly lead to new and creative business opportunities or ideas.
  • Hmm, I think there is a movie circulating on the internet with the same idea, making a virtual currency, uncontrollable by anyone(yeah right, last time I checked we were not in an Utopia). Sounds more like monopolization to me.
  • Actually - when was the last time you tried to make a large purchase in cash? If not recently - you might be very surprised at the hoops and documentation needed to do so. If you think cash purchases cannot be traced - you are really not very aware of the current regulatory environment. And if you think there are no KYCC regs that affect merchant transactions - you are very wrong.

    I don't have time to get into a lengthy discussion here of the legal issues at play in today's commerce arena - but they are there. You simply may not have run up against them yet due to your business model or the average size of your transaction - but they are there. Just because you are not personally aware of them - does not mean they do not exist. Why do you think PayPal is now going to reporting to a greater degree all transactions to the Feds? You are naive if you think it is just for tax purposes!

    This is an area that I work in every day - and have for more than 25 years. My expertise is in international transactions and money remittance - and trust me - BitCoin is going to have some big legal hurdles ahead of them. They may survive - and I hope they do - but contrary to what you think - I HAVE looked at them very closely, in fact a client is trying to become a BitCoin trading partner - and it's going to be a very challenging task for them to survive.

    I wish them well but it ain't an easy path ahead.

    Melody
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    • Try going to your bank and depositing $10,000 cash each week and see what happens....

      Mahlon
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    • Chris -

      As I said - you are not dealing yet in the types or size of cash transactions that come under KYC scrutiny. But try paying cash for a car or a home....you will see what I am talking about. And yes - there ARE laws in the US that mandate reporting of cash transactions of a certain size - usually $10,000 but in some circumstances that are deemed 'suspicious' according to certain criteria - the reporting threshold is substantially lower. As mentioned in a previous post - any bank deposit of more than 10j is reported to the Feds - but most banks are also reporting all funds that coming in from a non-US source as well, regardless of the amount.

      Have you tried to wire money - any amount - out of the country lately? The paperwork and ID verification required at both ends is not simply to make sure the right person is picking up the money. The sender and receiver are recorded and tracked to ensure that it is not going to fund terrorism activity.

      Just because you haven't been impacted by such laws - does not mean that they do not exist.

      Again, I deal with them everyday. Personally, I would love to see a company be able to give PayPal a run for their money - but BitCoin is going to be just as attractive to the 'dark side' as the various egold platforms were, mainly because it is an 'alternative' and 'anonymous' payment method.

      I really hope they succeed - I am just saying that they have a very difficult path ahead due to the current regulatory environment.

      Melody
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  • Chris - You gave the answer yourself previously:

    If online money system has security concerns, infighting, etc - it has no chance that I can see of developing a trustworthy relationship with the public (i.e., buyers).

    I think it's an interesting experiment and topic but I don't understand why you would seem angry when other point out perceived problems. For a company to build a business handling financial transactions, perception is crucial.

    kay
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    • Perception is all that matters in this case. Whether a buyer or seller is right or wrong, if they think that bitcoin seems risky then many won't touch it. Not when they can use methods they are familiar with.

      A marketing campaign to dismiss these myths would be a good start.
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  • Kay - you really bring up a good point with this one:
    I can't see why any company would want to accept this unless they are marketing to regions where credit/paypal cannot be used.

    This has been the problem with these alternative currency systems to date: they are adopted most readily by businesses and individuals that cannot or do not want to use the 'standard' ecommerce channels.

    The platforms may start out with the best of intent - the Dr. that started EGold really did have a very benign and visionary concept - but in the real world - intent and result are rarely the same.

    Major traditional merchants will be slow to adopt, because, contrary to the posts by others here, these merchants DO have reporting requirements and DO have to abide by certain regulations when it comes to receiving funds from international sources.

    The same 'how do we make money buying and selling EGold/EBullion' frenzy is now surrounding BitCoin - and it is a shame. It gives the platform the aura of a sham Ponzi scheme - and that was not the intent of the founder,

    Unfortunately - reality often means far less than perception.

    Melody
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  • How did you get that out of comparing bitcoins to Swiss francs? You think Swiss francs are useless?

    EFF and Bitcoin | Electronic Frontier Foundation ->

    Looks like a legal minefield to me.

    Actually, they use a given medium of exchange for one and only one reason:

    It is convenient and suits their purposes.

    And the reality is that bitcoins are less convenient than other currencies. So in order for anyone to select bitcoins as the medium of choice, there must be a compelling suitability of purpose.

    For many perfectly honest people, bitcoins are just plain cool. But that is not a selling point; "use Deutschmarks, they're cool!" is just plain stupid.

    For many dishonest people - of varying types - bitcoins are not subject to all kinds of pesky legislation and control like other currencies are. Because bitcoins are not money.

    For many politically-minded people, the lack of legislation and control is appealing as a principle. They like freedom, and this is a Good Thing and I like those people. But when they get more acceptance of bitcoins, it will cause two things to happen.

    First, bitcoins will no longer be cool because everyone will be using them, so all the people who use them because they're cool will stop.

    Second, bitcoins will become recognised as money and therefore subjected to the same legislation and control they hate.

    Some of us have seen this before. There are five competing standards, so someone smart and driven says "there should be just one standard that unifies all of the competing ones!" and makes it happen - resulting, not in his wonderful dream of one unified standard, but in six competing standards... DUMBASS.

    (Not you, the dumbass who made the sixth standard.)

    Basically, this is the same crap. "There are too many of these and they all suck. Let's make a new one. It should work exactly like the rest of them."



    Here's a tip, okay? When you want to solve the problems in a system, don't make something that looks and walks and quacks like that system. They're both ducks. They'll both act like ducks. They'll crap all over your house and eat all the popcorn. If you've got a problem with the ducks you already have, another duck is not the solution.
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    • In Oklahoma, we own shotguns.

      We feel that the best duck is served as dinner, and not a pesky little pooper who eats our popcorn!!

      Introducing a man, his dog, and many dinners to come:


  • This is almost exactly the same as Liberty Reserve, except the complication of harvesting BitCoins and understanding them isn't needed.

    The only drawback of LR (in my experience), is that every time you want to login to your account it's like trying to break the f*^%ing Enigma code.

  • That is an organization in which I want to put my money and my financial future -- into an organization that is "outside the law" (i.e. "outside the legislative control of governments")!! /sarcasm

    Thanks, but no thanks.

    If I were to take the stand, as the OP has done, that I don't want my customers to have financial protection for the money they spend with me, then I deserve what will befall me when I entrust my money to this grand new monetary system that is outside the legal constraints of consumer protection laws.

    If this system is truly outside the control of legislative action, then I would be entrusting my financial future to "some Japanese guy", who seems to be described as a person with very altruistic motives.

    Call me jaded if you will, but I don't trust that any man is as altruistic as described. All men do things for their own personal gain.

    History has taught me that even Charles Ponzi made a lot of people rich, and yet, we all know how that turned out. :rolleyes:

    Strangely, the arguments that are being made "for Bitcoin" are the very reasons why I am growing more and more "wary of Bitcoin".

    I don't think that was your intention, but it is the net result of your efforts and the efforts of others.


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    • I don't know Pete, but for his sake, please don't insult our intelligence.

      A money system that is controlled by no one, is in fact controlled by someone.

      Decentralized simply means "wild, wild west" in Okie speak.

      For those folks from Arkansas, that means that the hillbilly, who shoots revenuers for fun, is in charge of the local community. You know the feller I am talking about -- the one who is so big and mean that no one in their right mind is going to confront him directly about anything he says or does, because he would just asoon shoot your ass rather than to listen to you whine about right and wrong.

      If this thing is decentralized, then who keeps it clean from fraud and black hatters? No one?


      And in case you don't realize it, this system controlled by no one relies on an accounting system, managed by a few remote servers that house its distributed database. And these choke points are controlled by someone.

      Where is the sheriff when a couple of the server administrators go rogue?


      Who is going to defend the integrity of the network, when one of those scrpt kiddies with too much time on their hands gets into the open source code (consider WordPress for example) to find an exploit that they can use to steal value (assets) from the community?

      Who is going to protect my investment in a system like this? No one?

      LOL



      A couple of times in this thread, it was stated that Bitcoin is safer than the U.S. Dollar...

      What can I say but, "Wow!! Really?"

      A decentralized system that is controlled and protected by no one is not what I consider a "safe investment" of my hard-earned money.


      The devaluing of the U.S. Dollar has been happening for decades, through the mechanism of inflation. There is nothing new about that. Maybe the devaluation is accelerated by the current political environment, but this forum is not one for the discussion of politics.


      Economies are driven by the flow of money between parties.

      When the money supply tightens, it is because people are hoarding money.

      Then the Federal Reserve must print money to grease the economy for growth.

      It may not be a perfect system, but you are asking us to trade an imperfect system for another imperfect system with more flaws than the one we have currently.

      If no one is in control of the Bitcoin money supply, then who is going to protect the integrity of the system for vendors, and who is going to protect the integrity of the system for consumers?

      We tried the wild, wild west here in the United States during the late 1800's, and it was soon realized that installing the hanging judge, Isaac Parker, in Fort Smith Arkansas would be required to protect the prosperity of the many, from the few who would usurp the liberty and wealth of others by force.



      Any economic system that offers protection for no one, will be abused by anyone who desires to take advantage of others.

      And all economic systems have winners and losers. If we were to trade the U.S. Dollar economy for the Bitcoin economy, the only thing we will be doing is trading one set of masters for another set of masters, whom we do not know.

      As to the question of Bitcoin vs. the U.S. Dollar, I think this proverb speaks volumes:


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  • My fave comment so far:
    Bitcoin raises untested legal concerns related to securities law, the Stamp Payments Act, tax evasion, consumer protection and money laundering, among others. And that’s just in the U.S.

    Untested?? Hardly!!! There have been numerous cases over the past decade of payment/currency systems that have launched and either decided to comply with the regs (ie: PayPal) or tried to stay the course and died (ie: EGold - and all of the other dozens of clones).

    You probably are not in the payments industry, and so most of these companies were never even on your 'radar' but believe me - this is not a terribly unique concept - it has simply had a better PR team than most of the others have had.........

    Mel
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    • There has never been a decentralised payment/currency system.

      All the precedents apply to central-authority systems where somebody is in control. Bitcoins are a radically different notion: nobody is in control. There is no hub in the wheel, no spokes, just a circle of people throwing money back and forth at one another. It's impossible to track and impossible to regulate. This is by design.

      However, it has been demonstrated more than once that it is very possible to defraud or manipulate. And a lot of people like to quote Thomas Jefferson on that: "They who would give up essential liberty for a sense of security deserve neither." Or something like that.

      Except we regulate the banking industry to prevent fraud and manipulation. We don't let just anyone start running a bank. And essentially, the way bitcoins work, anyone using them is a bank. It's a very egalitarian notion, and the ideas behind it are fascinating. But we have all of these laws that require anyone running a bank to meet specific requirements.

      Somewhere along the line, we are going to have to reconcile that. Clearly, it's not fair to have every normal person who has a few bitcoins comply with banking regulations; that's just silly. We're going to have to draw a line. And when we draw that line, we're going to have to say people on THIS side can do certain things, and people on THAT side can't.

      And that will completely destroy the notion of how bitcoins work, because now you'll need to have Banker-bitcoin and Depositor-bitcoin systems, and hey presto they've invented banks. Isn't that special.

      The only thing that allows bitcoins to operate the way they do is that they are not money.

      Flip that switch, make bitcoins money, and suddenly a vast quantity of regulations already apply to it. The language of those regulations has already taken into account the possibility of new countries and new currencies and new banking authorities, so the deciding factor is simply "is this money?" - and one day, a judge will say "yes it is" and bang his gavel.

      Bam, bitcoins have to comply with banking regulations.

      And do you know who already complies with all those regulations?

      Banks.

      Remember how easy it was for people to start using bitcoins? Banks can do it just as easily. So while the individual bitcoin user suddenly faces a wall of regulations and a deadline for compliance, the bank just has to throw a few switches and say "hey presto, we now accept bitcoins which are fundamentally just another form of currency."

      And it's just one more competing standard.
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  • Chris -

    What is your background in payments/money remittance/anti-money laundering/KYCC regulations, etc? You seem to be taking a pretty strong stance on the issues at hand here - so am assuming that you have some background in this area?

    Melody
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    • Name five. Seriously, if there are plenty of reasons, name them and maybe they'll make some sense. Name reasons outside the practice of hoarding or trading the coins themselves.

      The OP made the statement about many places now accepting Bitcoins - but when pointed out there are no such places on the bitcoin "directories" - he didn't comment.

      Many of the supportive comments are similar to those posted in defense of paid-to-click sites a few years ago. People argued they were "legal" - until they weren't. The "laws can't do anything" - until they did. It was posted as "a great money maker" - until it was a loss.

      If Bitcoin has a future, it will grow. If not, it won't. It's been around 2-3 years and so far not much has happened except a small group devoted to making money with Bitcoins. Nothing said here will affect the outcome.

      kay
  • Here's how i'd track someone through bitcoin, say I was the anti-fraud police and I suspect some guys selling copyright stuff or whatever else to people and accepting payment via bitcoin. So i'd aquire the public bitcoin address they give out(which they have to, to receive payment), look through the public transaction db(transaction blocks all bitcoin users download) to see all addresses that sent this address payment(i could back track and find those users if I wanted too, but lets skip that for now) and instead focus on all bitcoins sent from this address, because the idea being the end of the trail will lead us to gold, either the seller sends his bitcoins to an exchange service for $$$ or buys something with them that may point to personal information like a shipping address. It's really that easy, even if he sent his bitcoins to a million different accounts, it doesn't matter, you can still track it, and it has to end somewhere. And even if he received payment each time through new bitcoin addresses, doesn't matter, you only need one to follow the digital trail(though this would protect the buyers if the seller did this). Basically if he moves any of the bitcoins from his account, it'll leave an easy to find trail, that's my point. There is one exception to this, since your bitcoins are stored in a file on your harddrive(or wherever you want to put them) in theory he could give his bitcoins out on a phsyical medium like a pen drive, but even with that, that's the same as paying in cash vs using a debit card, and can be tracked to for the most part.
  • I'm just waiting for a link to a WSO on how to make a fortune with bitcoins to appear in your signature since you seem really desperate to promote it.

    -Chris
    • [2] replies
    • Nah, I can just appreciate the genius behind it, as a programmer, and understand the problems is fixes. The increase abuse of companies also show more than ever why bitcoin and systems like it need to be more mainstream, I just recently read about super cookies...if you don't know what those are google, cause they suck.
    • Neither did egold.
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  • I'd like to say there's nothing stopping a company from doing a escrow service for bitcoin either, where a 3rd party holds on to the funds until the product/service trade is complete on both ends,granted this is going back to a paypal setup, so that company would have to be trusted...good thing is, with bitcoin it'd be a lot easier though, that's what mtgox and tradehill do basically, for conversion only though. There's a ton of similar sites out there, here's overview of the market Bitcoin Watch as you can see it's still healthy, no "crash" etc...all that's just fear mongering. Also http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD.html
  • Bitcoin...this is new to me but sounds interesting

    Thanks for the posters above as well who gave links and ideas about the matter.

    gonna go and check this out
  • Banned
    I've been watching this discussion, munching popcorn and shaking my head.

    That horribly broken system has been evolving for over 100 years.

    Billions of dollars have been invested in these systems to make them globally available and reasonably secure. They are so firmly entrenched in the world's financial systems, they aren't going to be replaced easily or anytime soon.

    Ah, now I get it - you want to take away consumer protection from the majority of buyers who don't ever do anything wrong, because you sold something and got a bunch of chargebacks and your PayPal account frozen. :rolleyes:

    If you want to avoid chargebacks, build a decent product, give good service and don't scam your customers. It's really pretty easy...been doing it for years.

    No, you're wrong - YOU get your accounts locked and YOU ruin your reputation...not the companies involved in processing your payments.

    Incidentally, even displaying on a sales page that you accept bitcoin or other systems like this along with a standard payment processor is more likely to reduce conversions and harm your reputation than anything else.

    I don't have a problem with the concept of a virtual currency - one that's secure, regulated and widely accepted.

    If you really think that bitcoin or any other virtual currency, especially one that's open source, P2P, has no consumer protection and no regulation/oversight is ever going to take off, then brother I want a prescription for the meds you must be taking.

    The key point you're failing to grasp is that while it may sound great for merchants, the main problem is that there is absolutely no benefit or incentive for the consumer to adapt it.

    And if you can't sell it to consumers on a global scale, there's no reason for merchants to adapt it either.

    I read somewhere that in 2010, Visa processed a total volume of over $1 trillion in debit card transactions. Mastercard did about half of that...and with the average US household having 2.5 debit cards and 3 point something credit cards, merchants aren't going to give up that consumer base in favor of something like bitcoin.

    But, it's your choice and good luck using them...I'll stick with the horribly broken system that's been instrumental in earning me a fortune over the last ten years.
    • [1] reply
    • You do that, and our economy will continue to stagger, remember how we got here, most of that wasn't because of the war, oh no my friend, it was because of the banks you so value and trust. Allowing them to run themselves with an entire nation dependent on them, was a big no no, and that's already been proven.

      Anyone wanna flip some houses? i'm a bank a nation depends on, it's cool...if we go into debt it won't be a problem....yeah... boa all the way!
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  • first time i have ever heard of bitcoins
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    • Well I hope my brief overview was somewhat helpful, I recommend you check out bitcoin.org for a more in-depth look.
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  • I hear there is quite a lot of monopoly money out there available to the general public too. Could we accept that as payment?
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    • Banned
      Bet you'd be good selling off Boardwalk and Park Place...
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    • Banned
      That's not entirely true...I bring a lot of humor here too. :rolleyes:

    • You must be off of your meds.

      You might look into fixin that.



      I added my crayon so you wouldn't overlook it this time.
    • I recently saw on another thread someone suggest a permanent popcorn machine be put up in the main corridor of the forum.

      Is it there yet?

      Also, I'm still living under a stone. I've not heard of this bitofcoin.com or whatever it is.

      Over here we still use buttons.

      What's Paypal?
      • [1] reply
  • Interesting thread. Lots of good back and forth. Much of it is speculation, so let me add my speculation to this thread:

    1) I make a good living accepting credit cards, and Paypal.

    2) If I add Bitcoins to that, I'm guessing everyone or almost everyone will keep using credit cards or Paypal simply because they have protection that way in case they don't like my product.

    3) If I only accepted Bitcoins I'd have to get a job because my income would plumment.

    What incentive do I have for jumping on the Bitcon bandwagon?

    Refunds aren't a problem for me. Chargebacks aren't a problem for me. Both are rare, and I do offer a guarantee, I want my customers to be happy with their purchases.

    So what would Bitcoin do for me besides adding another layer of complexity to my checkout process? I sure don't foresee enough monetary gain to make the extra effort pay off.

    I see no reason for me to accept Bitcoins, and plenty of reasons not to. I'd further speculate that most merchants would have the same reasons not to jump on the bandwagon that I do. So exactly who is it that Bitcoin needs to be number one for, because it isn't me or anyone I know.
  • You know what...I apologize for insulting some people in this thread, i'm passionate about bitcoin and it drives me crazy when people post misinformation about it and present it as fact. I have to remember to remind myself that there always going to be individuals who do that, in all mediums, as well as people who will listen to them. There's nothing I can do in this case, short of posting correct information and letting them believe what they want.
    • [2] replies

    • And I apologize to you for being a thorn in your side.

      But so long as I continue to disagree with your viewpoint, all I can do is to present an opposite point of view, and let our audience decide for themselves whose opinion seems to make the most sense.

      • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • And I find it ironic that people supporting BitCoin want to ignore the basic premise that even BitCoin is acknowledging: they are going to have to meet certain regulatory requirements that exist today or they are going to face a lot of very serious issues.

      The system has great potential, I applaud the concept - but they still have a tough road ahead of them and not everything that they originally built into the platform is going to make it out the other side.

      Melody
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  • Banned
    I guess I'll take my lying, illiterate, fear mongering ass off to bed...

    By the way, search on the legality of bitcoin and it turns up some really interesting info. From what I've read so far, it sounds more and more like a system used mainly for illegal activities and money laundering.
  • The horrible problem is that they still have that little problem that is MILLENIA old called FRAUD! The chargeback is to give SOME relief from THAT!

    BULL! If it is not tangible, and not centrally controlled, then OTHERS can do it and you have ANOTHER problem! Can you say counterfeit, devalued, inflation, FRAUD?

    Well HEY, it is easy for ANYONE to create something, even digital, sell it, and use it, after a chargeback period, as cash with NO recourse! It wasn't delayed so much because it couldn't be done. ALL money starts that way! hat is what checks are, etc... But HOW do checks work? You are given money effectively on CREDIT. If a chargeback occurs(check bounces), they debit your account. In the past, and now, there are lawsuits, etc...

    Steve
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • You have THAT right! Those that are FOR this believe that they DESERVE the money, and should NEVER have it taken away from them. The sale is merely a way to get people to give up money! NO value need be given! To debate that, to them, is to CHEAT THEM! THEY may use credit cards PLANNING to charge back, but NOBODY may EVER do that to THEM. And they publicly claim someone is a GENIUS for doing what they want! INCREDIBLE! Credit cards, in the US at least, allow chargebacks because IT IS THE LAW!!!!! And those laws were passed because they were NEEDED! Are they abused? YEP! But they are STILL needed.

    Steve
  • OK, I checked out bitcoin! GUESS how much a $100 item will cost to buy, on average! Come on, GUESS!!!!!!! As much as about $124!!!!!!!! WHOA you say, HOW? OK, let me explain!

    $100 for item! You KNEW that, right?
    $4+ for spread! You pay over 4% for the spread between buy and sell. So you pay $100 for less than $96.29! NICE DEAL, HUH? And YES, that is the exchange rate at the time of this writing!
    $10 for your joining! If you joined because of an affiliate or partner, you get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?
    $10 for your becoming an affiliate or partner. You get $10! GRANTED you get $10, but WHERE do you think it comes from?

    HECK, Amazon once paid a huge amount for affiliates, but THEY had a potential profit. People cheated, and they lowered the rate there! Eventually, they lowered it EVERYWHERE. WHY? Because it was adding up. And PAYPAL once paid like $20 for referrers and gave the buyer a discount, but it was a ONE time deal.

    HOW do they make money with only 4%?
    HOW do they pay The affiliate and you a total of 20%?

    And what about the transaction charges?

    Steve
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    • What in the world are you talking about?! You high? too much coffee? heh
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  • Cashtree,

    Someone refers you, and you buy something for $100 from someone....

    YOU figure it costs $100, so you pay $100. The amount available is $96, because of the spread. OK, the other stuff, at least now, is open to interpretation I guess...

    $100@5.07=19.72 bitcoins bought
    19.72@4.85=95.66 dollars bought with bitcoins ~4.34%

    OH, I didn't see THIS:
    OK, so they have a cap of $.60, or is that $1.20, per $100?

    OK, I don't remeber seeing the "of the commission" part:

    and I guess THIS is open to interpretation:
    Still, it is interesting that the rate is changing. Is it pegged to a foreign currency, or what?

    WOW, that doesn't say much! GOLD has inherent value no matter what, is limited, etc... Bitcoins don't and aren't.

    Steve
  • I haven't tried this yet but I will look for an opportunity to use it in the future. Thank you for the information.
  • Well, there are a LOT of reasons why a national currency must be national or based on an internationally recognized commodity. So I doubt it would replace the fed. If I thought it were that easy, I would try to do so. and the IMF is even harder to replace.

    Shutting down an exchange in the country is pretty easy. just filter out the packets. The government wants to make that as simple as pushing a button. Until then, there are threats and suits of tier one servers.

    Ken, ever hear of the G7, etc... G7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One thing they do is trade currency to have a parity. It also means that they all accept others currency. and a number of things are valued in dollars. The US dollar would be worth FAR less without that.

    As for that bitcoin forum? The idea of the relative value of currency having ANYTHING to do with how much things cost is LUDICROUS! Swiss currency has traditionally been lower than the dollar, but they STILL have rolex watches, etc... Some watches EASLY cost 10 times what you might expect. One of the LOWEST value currencies is japanese, and it is STILL expensive! Did YOU know that the indian currency is actually worth MORE than japanese? Yet THEY tend to have lower cost labor! As for greece? I DOUBT they are really behind the times. Western europe is often known as western europe as if they were one country. They DO share technology, etc... And INDIA tends to be more behind the times. Certainly not the WHOLE country, but a good chunk of it.

    I WOULD say why greece was in trouble, but that would get political. Suffice it to say that too many were promised that their retirement would be too rosy.

    steve
    • [1] reply
    • And what creates the demand for the currency? I mean YEAH, some charitable organizations have "scrip" that some, but certainly NOT all, organizations accept. There may be coupons, or store credit, but it rarely goes far. And yeah, some times large groups create a currency but it often fails and I wonder if it was ever really fully supported. The european community did a LOT before they put out the euro. And the US doesn't provide any FORCE for use of their currency. For most of my life apparently, there was NO tie. NOW, they have a lot of crazy limitations on barter that apply.

      HECK, if you donate $1000 to an organization, and get a gift valued at $100, they figure you donated $900 EVEN if you could have bought the gift at less than $100. But if you want to buy something in the US, the dollar is the only thing you generally have a good chance of buying it with. I don't know if the US does anything to limit banks abilities to provide foreign currencies, but some DO provide foreign currencies. HECK, I used to live near a store that EVEN provided polish money when THEIR system was 100% internal.

      As for china, that is an odd one, and I have to say I don't fully understand it, but if they DO still have fully an internal currency, then they obviously have more control over it, and it kind of limits what you are saying about markets. After all, foreign countries try to determine relative value and safety. The more that can be purchased, and the more stable, the greater the relative value. And china would, with a fully internal currency, have to trade value. They obviously have a lot to trade. And that would give them foreign currency they could use elsewhere when needed. As long as US dollars have a value elsewhere, the companies can trade internally for more yuan if needed, and use the dollars for foreign purchases if they can't trade.

      HEY, the US has done similar thngs! They have frozen funds, subpoenaed logs, forced companies to refund, limit email, store email, reveal customers/methods, thrown people in jail, etc... You're KIDDING, RIGHT? OHICSM!

      And you think currencies have ALWAYS traded on open markets? You think that a dollar denominated market can dictate much of what a dollar is worth?

      And YEAH, the relative value of currencies change the value that shows in a given currency. But some have historically been low, and have not been countries known for having a high standard of living, etc...

      And The G7 controls them through supply and demand! If the dollar gets weak, others buy, which reduces supply and shows demand. ALSO, it moves their currency having the opposite effect, which helps bring parity to them.

      Steve
  • Let me summarize and clarify some things since there seems to be some confusion about bitcoin

    1)there are absolutely no fees to send/recv bitcoins, if you use an exchange service like mtgox or tradehill to convert to some currency then sure they'll be a fee of which that paticular companies determines. You can however buy many many products and services with bitcoins directly online with no fees.

    2)the value of bitcoins are only growing in value as time goes on, this is by design. When bitcoin first came on the scene a few years ago it was very easy to grind away with your home CPU to generate bitcoins(and they were only worth pennies at the time), as each bitcoin was made it increased the effort needed to make the next one by a great margin. Now a few years later a CPU is out of question, way too slow and uses too much energy, even using a GPU(much better suited for bitcoin mining) you'd still need to join groups of people to generate one. Bitcoins value was selling around $15 for awhile on average(so had you got in it years ago you could of sold for $$ today) after mtgox got their database hacked and some users bitcoins stolen(keep in mind this was mtgox fault no one elses) right now I think it's standing around $4. Bitcoins are limited to 21 million, there will never be anymore than that, that's why individual bitcoins increase in value, due to how hard it gets to make new ones. It's ok though because you can buy/sell using decimals .0001 bitcoin for example.

    3)Bitcoin doesn't use encryption, however all transaction(the sender/user are anonymous) but the transaction itself is completely public, and as such you can see all bitcoins an address has received and sent, and because of that it's pretty easy for the gov to track someone, regardless if they tried to separate and send bitcoins to a bunch of different accounts, if they ever use an exchange service or have something shipped for example, at the end of the trail will lead right to them. The only exception to this is if they sold bitcoins via a physical medium(like a pendrive, since all your bitcoins are stored in a file called wallet.dat) Granted in that case the gov would then be focused on the new owner of them.
    • [1] reply
    • And the very fact that there ARE regular transactions over 10kUSD is WHY this is going to come under very close scrutiny and will be eventually 'forced' to comply with the various international regs surrounding 'money' movement.

      Anything that offers the ability to move large sums of currency of any kind with minimal identity verification is going to come under close scrutiny.

      Mel
      • [1] reply
  • Clark - You have completely misconstrued everything that I have said. As I said before there is no point in continuing in this dialogue. You don't want to hear any relevant facts, and you really don't want to have a discussion with anyone - you just want to insist that you are right, and ignore any potential issues/problems or roadblocks that anyone else has brought up.

    As to not commenting on this statement:
    Please explain to me how any government can enforce KYC legislation on bitcoin users? It is simply not possible. Bitcoin easily dodges any kind of legislation. It is not affected by legislation.

    My comment was a 'tongue in cheek' aside to the absolute absurdity of that comment - not because I had no response. Peer to Peer networks are taken down almost daily by multi-national task forces because they are used to run payment fraud schemes. They are NOT outside of the realm of any government regulation. Very few of these takedowns ever make the general news but I can assure you that that they are not outside of all government overview.

    Trust me - when it comes to money movement - if one of the big 7 wants the system taken down badly enough - it will come down.

    Again - I WORK in this area - this IS my expertise. I deal with OFAC, FINCEN, FINTRAC and a barrel of other initialed agencies all the time - and it is very different than the type of KYC you dealt with for a Fortune 500 company. We have to drill down through all of the shell corporations to the ULTIMATE beneficiary of every settlement that we send to an international merchant - and we know the names and addresses of every major shareholder and director of the companies down the foodchain.

    You can expound theory as much as you want to - but I will re-state what I said in my initial post - I applaud their effort - but BitCoin has a bumpy, tough road ahead of them.

    Personally, I wish BitCoin the best of luck, and I hope they succeed. But will they do so in their present form? That will be very difficult at best.

    But it is nice to know that at least BitCoin understands compliance - even though you apparently do not.

    Melody
    • [1] reply
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  • Coming from the RMT industry, I see how bitcoins could work now and how it will work in the future. For years I would earn a virtual currency, and then exchanged it for USD or CNY on a daily basis. Will bitcoins last? Not likely. 1000 bitcoins won't have nearly the same value of 1000 bitcoins in a week, and the market Will fluctuate that quickly and will almost never be for good.

    RMT - YouTube
    • [1] reply
  • OK, I only read the free part, but what it said is:

    1. The real author isn't known.
    2. There is a central point of failure, that was breached and lowered the value.
    3. It was as low as less than a penny, and as high as $29, and is now closer to $5.

    It WOULD be interesting if this were tracked to determine how much is really spent.

    Steve
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  • I'm happy this thread has been revived! As Bitcoin is still going strong!
    • [1] reply
    • Yeah I don't think it's going to die out any time soon, I was one of those people who got bought into the hype though and thought the price per btc was going to go up over $100, luckily I never got around to buying any...
      • [1] reply
  • So what is your going rate? How many chickens will it cost me to buy what you are selling?
  • I think many people here are looking to black and white. Will everyone accept it? Of course not. Will many yes. But until we make attempts and learn, we will never get a real alternative currency off the ground. Just like many IM careers, fail a few times until you get it right.

    I think what will happen, in order to get major acceptance, something drastic HAS to happen to the current monetary system for others to seek alternatives. Otherwise, its just going to get slow acceptance, and a few bad "hacks" will kill it. And many insider sources say its around the corner.

    I surely don't want to carry gold everywhere, the chances of getting robbed, seem higher then digital currency.

    Anyone here accepting it? Curious of the pushback your getting. PM me, I may want to test a Bitcoin tool soon on it that you might like.
  • Lets face the hard reality folks...

    Fiat money and the fractionated central banking systems are nothing more then systems of enslavement.

    They steal from all that use them for the benefit of a small few running the systems.

    They harm you. They harm me. They harm progress of humanity.

    The banking system is ripe for a reset.

    A decentralized means of exchanged of wealth is the solution. And for the first time in history it is possible because of the existing networks.

    Bitcoin has its problems. But it is a good prototype for the eventual solution.

    I would invite you to checkout a few links...

    The American Dream Part 1 - The Most Important Cartoon Ever Made! - YouTube

    Thrive

    https://ripplepay.com/

    https://raindroplet.info

    And of course:

    Bitcoin - P2P digital currency

    ... Imagine a world for a moment free of fiat currency. Where you and I can easily exchange wealth with a decentralized application. Where 100% of the wealth goes to those that created the value. Where the confiscation of wealth through inflation and artificially created bubbles simply is not possible any longer. Where wars motivated by profit can no longer be sustained.

    That world is possible folks.

    If it's at all viable in your market I would suggest experimenting offering Bitcoin, Ripplepay, Raindroplet, and any alternative means of exchange outside the current centralized banking module a try.

    By doing so we all benefit.

    It's an idea who's time has come.

    Okay enough of my rant for today...
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    • *****DUH*****

      NOT EVEN CLOSE! PLEASE think before saying such things. You do NOT want bitcoin as an actual currency. In fact, it IS a fiat currency! A fat currency has value ONLY because it is traded! If you have to make an appeal, as you are, then it is a FIAT currency!

      Steve
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  • Steve, if you can't understand the problem of centralization and the solution decentralization presents then there is no point in this discussion.

    If you really think lobbying will have any effect on the dollars value then this really, really, really is a pointless discussion.

    Steve keep those dollars. Know when the Euro goes south, the dollar will be next. Perhaps you can reference this post then.

    Good luck my friend...
    • [1] reply
    • You show things HERE that prove it isn't decentralized. You're right about lobbying though. If EVERYONE were lobbying, NOBODY would because they would have what they want. I deal with dollars ONLY because others do.

      Steve
  • For those who want to accept bitcoin there are some merchant solutions listed on this wiki page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Bit...ayment_systems

    (the same page also contains links to all kinds of merchants selling goods and services for bitcoins etc.)

    BTW, the exchange rate went up to almost $6 per BTC lately, see: Bitcoin Charts / Markets
  • So all you folks negative on Bitcoin must think Torrent is a bad idea and in danger of being shut down by the feds too right?
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    • What's your point? REALLY, I see NO point to your obvious attempt at an argument.

      I am AGAINST bit coin because it is a simple barter system, and obviously has a lot of HYPE!
      I actually considered doing something like torrent decades(about 30 years) ago. Doing it with what I had would have been too expensive, etc... Not many homes back then had more than one line, and high bandwidth was unheard of. Even 1200baud was rare. The nice part about torrent is that, in theory, it could be fault tolerant, and faster, but you probably think it is something else.

      Steve
      • [1] reply
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  • 262

    Why bitcoin needs to become #1 right now

    The problem with debit/credit cards is their tied to a horribly broken system. Users can chargeback up to 6 months after purchase...yeah I said 6 months, and there's really nothing you can do short of submit anything to help your case, if the company even bothers to ask you, even then the chances of you winning are slim. This is a serious problem for anyone selling anything, it can get your accounts locked(such as paypal) it can hurt your reputation and business and it can make you lose product, and tons of money. Enters bitcoin