Personal Responsibility For The Mortgage Crisis

Seems to me if their homes were foreclosed, they were held accountable.

It's an immensely complex problem.

Your comments are on point. We were in the throes of a gluttonous consumer consumption diet that had spread to the middle class. People refinanced homes to buy cars and boats - but many refinances were to pay off high credit debt....and then the credit cards were run up once again. I know people personally who refinanced several times to pay off consumer debt. They never realized they were trading unsecured debt for secured debt which is never smart.

There's blame enough for all in this mess. Regulators who didn't regulate, banks that went for big short term profits over and over, people who wanted more and more stuff and assumed housing prices would only go up. Many financial experts encouraged people to "use your equity"...and that's what people did. To them, "equity" was found money in houses where the value had risen year after year.

But - Greenspan said himself to congress that "housing can never go down". If the top brain can't predict it - who can?

The response to the problems caused has been to bail out people who were foolish and maybe that's necessary. Unfortunately, the people hurt most are those who are losing homes they've had for years (and could afford) because they've lost their jobs. Those folks don't qualifsy for refinances or for mortgage bailouts - and it sound like they'll be ignored in the latest bailout to be announced this week, too.

Before bailing out banks (in my opinion) there should have been a requirement to stabilize rates across the board by reducing all mortgages to the going rate to 5%. That would have saved a tremendous number of homes, required the banks to take part of the hit, and would have helped homeowners who didn't treat their mortgages like a savings account to draw from.

The other problem is all of us who own home are suffering because our homes are worth so much less than they were five years ago. I never tapped my home's equity to buy goodies - but I've lost about $60k+ in equity in this market.

Maybe the people you are talking about were smart after all - at least they had some fun with their equity before they lost it. On the other hand, I still have my house.

kay

Let's not forget those appraisal folks.

TL

Let's not forget those appraisal folks.

TL

The "taxpayers" have largely been repaid with interest. Nobody bailed out a bank because they liked banks. Tarp was designed to stabilize our economy and save our domestic auto industry. It did. It would have caused much more hardship not to do anything. Meanwhile we have people living in houses for as much as three years without making any payments, paying any property taxes or insurance. I'm with Kay. This is a hugely complex problem that doesn't lend itself to easy solutions. I've been around the real estate markets for 40 years. I know the Tampa market almost street by street and I am astonished by some of the prices I've seen that houses sold for from 2000 to 2008. Some of them have lost 75% of their "value". Unfortunately many people who didn't play the game have been hurt right along with those that did. My own house has lost around a third of its value. All of the sudden I'm also becoming a bad guy for putting together REITs and buying mostly empty bank owned properties. Not an original idea. Anyone could do it. Tampa, like a lot of cities is glutted with foreclosed properties. It will be years before the inventory stabilizes. A group I belong to has recommended that the city tear down as many as 500 houses. Truth be known, they could tear down four times that many. Anyone have any bright ideas just speak right up.

Thomas

I started to,but then decided I wasn't even going to touch this one.

As for "refinancing"? There WAS a SCAM to get people OUT of fixed rate loans and into variables with low teaser rates! They tried that on ME!

steve

i heard somewhere that, there is a rule mortgage interest will vary according to property.

Yes, greed takes over. Probably 95% of the people involved in house flipping didn't really understand way markets work and shouldn't have been there to begin with. Slot machines look easy too, for people who don't understand the law of independent events (or choose to ignore it). Of the 455 case studies I went through probably 50% or there abouts were house flips. Sorry Tim, but I have much less sympathy for flippers than I do for long time home owners who got caught up in the "easy" money. Seems you fall into both categories as do a number of my friends.

Thomas

I can't say much here because what I have to say about the banks would get this whole thread zapped.........

But as far as consumers -- they are very aptly called "consumers" because it seems that is all they are able to do. I wonder if schools teach even the basics of economics any more? You do not buy something that is going to go up in price later when you are in a state of stagflation that has all the signs of being artificially perpetuated and shows no signs of every letting up. Yet people were buying on balloon payments with no indication anywhere that wages were going to be increasing. How can you "bet on the come" in an economy that clearly shows that incomes will not rise at the rate your payments are going to? At the same time electric, fuel, water and other necessities were showing a continual rise that any raises would most likely barely cover if you got lucky and actually got one.

Yep - "consumer" is the right word for what this country has produced. Aren't we just proud of ourselves?

I love this thread....So interesting to see what is happening in another country.

I cannot comment on the state of the US housing market, but I have for many years, and currently still work as a mortgage broker within an exceptionally successful estate agency [real estate agent- different set up to USA] here in the UK.

I have to say the majority of repossessions here in the UK, circa 70% I believe, are actually buy to let repo's and not people losing their home.

Where we differ to the US is we repossess, not foreclose, which in my opinion is boarderline criminal. Therefore if you house is mortgaged for £50,000 and the bank take it back into possession, and they sell it for £150,000 [Legally they have to prove best price was achieved, otherwise the owner who was repo'd could sue them] and the costs of selling were £15000, the ex-borrower would receive a cheque [ check?] for £85,000.

Reality is many repossessions are in negative equity, therefore the bank is taking a hit on each and every one.

The mortgage market here is fine. No more difficult to finance if you have a deposit, and have been sensible, than it was 5 years ago. If you do not have a deposit, and have lots of debt, then basically you rent! [I am having one of my best ever years!]

My day job focuses very much on helping people build buy to let portfolios. Property prices have dropped, and rentals have increased. Therefore a naturally better time to invest in property and achieve a higher yield!

Many of our banks have been taken into state ownership to avoid massive financial losses for individuals. That was the right choice by the government. Once the banks are trading at a level that is conducive to a floatation on the london stock exchange the government will do so, and more than recoup the investment they made to save these banks. We will then no doubt start the cycle again!

I always buy property outright rather than support organized crime.

Another item that has hit homeowners hard is county assessors across our state (and I assume other places) using the absurd sales prices of 2006 and 2007 to raise property taxes by huge amounts even though the actual value of most all homes have declined substantially. Insurance in this state has been problematic since the early 90s.

Thomas

Refinancing isn't any harder in the US than it has been historically. Just after my bank went belly up in 2008, I refinanced my home with cash out AT A 1% discount!

In the UK, you can get back all your homes value? WOW!

Steve

Just had a call from a guy who called me a parasite because one of the REITs is closing on his house on Monday. Bought the home in 2006 for about twice what it was worth (or more) He never made a payment after November 2008. The bank has owned the house since April. Two other mortgagors wrote off their paper. He has been the entire route through three eviction proceedings. He's lived in the house the last 35 months for free, no payments, rent, taxes, or insurance. A judge signed a set out order two weeks ago that was just finally served yesterday. .....and I'm a parasite. This is what I hear all day long and that's sort of what I had in mind when I posted this thread.

Thomas

Yes, I agree, but the hew and cry in the country these days is apparently trading a government of laws for chaos. I think we are all seeing what happens when the financial industry is left to "self regulate". Even the banking "reform" that was passed was very watered down.
This guy also picked up a few free months during the robo signing foreclosure halt. Meanwhile Regions Bank had around $5,000 in costs and had to get a restraining order on him after he threatened the people in the local branch. He was offered $2,500 "relocation expenses" in August if he just signed off and moved. He asked for more and refused to move. This is what desperation really looks like.

Thomas

It's sad that our current situation necessitates the need to spend on many things we don't necessarily need, if this current financial situation has taught us anything, it's that many of our mindsets have to change

Here's a number...

There is $700 billion in negative equity in the U.S. housing market.

That means Americans owe $700 billion more than their homes are worth.

I thought it would be more.

TL

It IS more. Much more. Banks are carrying silly numbers on their books. The original amount of the mortgage, costs, fees, insurance and property taxes. My clients make much smaller actual value bids on properties after the bank takes ownership. (I make it very clear these are take it or leave it bids, not a negotiation.) About 95% get accepted. THEN the mortgagor has to write off the difference between the two numbers.
..... Her's an example that I won't even charge you $17 for. Just finished one for a couple. Lady buys a house in 2002 for $42,000. She refinanced it in early 2008 for $135,000. (The actual value at that time may have been around $55,000.) She defaulted (of course) lived there for a year for free then packed up, took the money and moved. Mellon of NY foreclosed, took two years, taxes, fees, insurance, etc. They wound up with around $146,000 on their books. My client comes along and bids $33,000 and the bid was accepted. NOW and only now the difference shows as a loss for the bank. (Its just a bit more complex than that because Mellon had sold the mortgage but you get the idea.) My client then spent (or will spend) about $6,500 on title work, upgrades, deferred maintenance, AND (this was the key to this house) getting it qualified for government subsidized section 8 housing. (Took a half dozen phone calls, two home inspections and some paperwork.) The good people at section 8 put a rental value that they are willing to pay of $750 a month on this particular home. The client can either have a pretty good return on an investment of less than $40,000 or sell the property to an investor. Valuation is easy since all the variables are known. (Investors like that) A buyer might get more rent but they are assured of the subsidy amount. I didn't invent anything new here people. This is available all over the country to anyone willing to work for a living. If you think there isn't any investment money out there you are dead wrong. There's tons. People don't trust the equity markets, banks don't pay anything, Fox scares the crap out of them every single night, etc. Lots of folks are sitting on cash.

Thomas

Thomas, of the 455 foreclosures you studied, 453 of them were refinances.
How do you know the mortgages they had were "normal" and not predatory?

As pointed out here, the talking heads on tv were encouraging homeowners to borrow the equity out of their homes to pay off bills, invest, etc. So-called experts told people it was a bad idea to pay off their mortgages early - loss of tax deductions, etc.

We don't know how people used the money they got from their refis. Sure, some people bought investment properties, boats, cars, paid bills, started a new business, but we don't know what they did with the money.

Yes, the borrower has some responsibility in this foreclosure crisis. The blame game gets old. There has been nothing but finger pointing for the past two years and nothing has been done to curb foreclosures or sustain the housing market.

The economy is tied to the housing market. Our economy will not recover until the housing market stabilizes. It's going to be a long time before we hit bottom.

I bought many foreclosures over the years. I didn't flip them, I moved into them, remodeling them myself and moved out after 2 years and 1 day. I wouldn't touch a foreclosed property now if you paid me - a little problem called clear title.

For the past century, the real estate market has relied on a simple concept of recording or filing real property documents. In most states, it is not a requirement to record anything. However, it is (obviously) in a lienholders' best interest to record any security instrument that represents a debt.

One of the biggest problems with the market was started by Fannie (that would be the US taxpayer) and banksters with the creation of the Mortgage Electronic Recording System. This so-called electronic recording system was established to circumvent local filing/recording fees. Not only did or does track the assignments of loans, it also got too big for its britches and started shredding original notes.

Enter wrongful foreclosure. There is one small rule that is a law, or used to be a law, that required a wet ink document/note to foreclose on a property. Since the newly created two party justice system, the banksters have been handed a free pass to say they simply lost that note and please forgive them, but go ahead and foreclose.

The foreclosures were happening faster than the brainacs who developed the complex formula of securitization predicted. So what does the bank do? Hire robo signers to sign fraudulent affidavits in courts and assignments recorded in local lands records offices.

One individual did this and was jailed.

What happened to the banks that did this? Not a damn thing. They get a do over. A do over.

Another significant problem here in Texas is the notices of sale are not signed and riddled with errors. I have been passing along my research to the Texas Attorney General with a warning of how bad this will affect not just this state, but the US. I am aware that the foreclosure process is not being handled properly in every state in the US. It seems the banks are above the law. And from what I have seen, they certainly are.

If you don't pay your mortgage, the bank has a right to foreclose, no doubt about it. The blatant disregard for the judicial system is where I have a problem.

So, what do you think can happen when a house is sold at the courthouse steps using a notice of sale that the beneficiary or trustee "forgot" to sign?

What will happen when the real party in interest forecloses but it is later determined that the real party in interest wasn't the one who conducted the foreclosure sale?

Some people seem to think this is not a problem for them, they can pay their mortgage. It is a problem. It is a problem nationwide.

Lori, you're really up on this. Nice to see somebody so sharp. 1.You're right about Regions. With collateralizing they are out nothing at all. 2. I research the sale and mortgage history of each property extensively. Probably why I'm up till all hours. I've gotten to where I can smell a shark mortgage a mile away. Some of the same companies show up over and over. I've actually seen cases where the same owner refinanced as many as 5 times in three years. 3. Quiet title is taking about 3 to 4 months and cost around 3K depending.... In Texas I have used a company called "Tax Title Services". Works just as well for foreclosures as it does for tax deed properties. They will rate the risk and then go out and find an underwriter. 4. I use a really good 2% lawyer. (2% of the lawyers in the world make a fine living straightening out the messes the other 98% create.) Took me forever to find one that really understood real estate, trusts, REITs, etc. All of them will SAY they do. Fat chance.
.....One little secret I wasn't going to get into here is the IRS. People are terrified of them and I don't understand exactly why. I've found them to be extremely workable. One little item that you will be hearing more and more about in the coming months goes like this. If you refinance a property and default the IRS MAY regard the amount you pulled out as income. IRS liens are starting to show up everywhere (Texas is a good example). Almost nothing survives an IRS lien process. (Two minor exceptions). Its the quickest way I know to clear a title and the competition is almost non-existent. In Texas, the only one I know of, the state can and does foreclose for back child support. This CAN (there are exceptions) wipe out everything behind it.

Thomas

@ Lori, The IRS can and SOMETIMES does lien a property. That doesn't mean it can't be dealt with. They must be notified twice in the 90 days proceeding a sale. After the sale they have 120 days to do SOMETHING or the lien is extinguished. You're right about it going against a person but they will tie up somebody's property if there is no other way. On the other hand I've had them sign off a property just for asking. Doesn't relieve the taxpayer, just kicks the property loose.
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They almost never 1099 a residential mortgage (they can) but they will on a commercial or rental property. There is so much fraud going on that they are starting to crack down.
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Yep. Texas is the ONLY state that can foreclose a property for child support and the lien WILL survive a tax sale. So will local code liens and owners association assessments. That property I bought by accident in Hill County, Texas was a $7,000
child support lien. (We have conflicting court cases going on here so be sure to check on the code liens locally). NOBODY that I know of checks out child support liens in Texas. Not every county does them.
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Be glad to visit your forum sometime. I'll bet I could learn a few things. I pick up small things that help me all the time. I like that 2% thing too. About 20 years ago I was teaching a continuing education class to a bunch of Realtors and that just came out of my mouth without thinking. I liked it so well I kept on with it.
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@ Steve, Tax Liens/ Tax Certificates vary so much by state it behooves you to get to know the laws of your state like you know the color of your eyes. Even the people who handle these things don't often know the laws well. BE the smartest person in the room and it will pay you well. In SOME states SOME things survive. In other states they don't.
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@TLT, Mortgage out means that after the REIT is closed the investors may want to borrow back some of their money to do something else with. They borrow on the REIT not each individual property although each property is encumbered. We aren't doing that at the present because the money available is private money and fairly expensive at the moment.

Whew! Thomas

@Lori, Don't apoligize for going off topic. I ramble on myself. (That's why I use DNS to make posts.) I actually didn't think this thread would last through 5 posts. Never thought there would be a half dozen people on here that were all that interested.

Thomas

Thomas,

In the 1970s, I learned about a VERY stupid concept. I thought it DIED in the 80s. Maybe it HAD! Well,it is BACK! And with fixed rates of 6% and LESS, WHO would DARE get a VARIABLE rate? Well, THOSE are back now ALSO! HELL, Last I heard, QUICKEN STILL ran the MORONIC idea of a variable interest only loan! And they try to make you sound like an IDIOT for not doing it. "After all, do you REEEELY want to spend more money on the idea that you may stay there longer without knowing if you ever will?" You stay up to 3-7 years, and the property appreciates, and you could make a LOT of money! If you stay there longer, or have trouble selling the property at a break even or better price, the interest could sky rocket and bye bye credit!

And NOW, they are talking about having LONG term loans! With all that garbage, and CMOs almost a HOUSEHOLD TERM, OF COURSE people are interested!

Steve

With the Uk mortgage market we seem to do things very differently to you guys over there in the states. I work very close to 2 "RAF" airbases, that are USAF outposts here in the UK. RAF mildenhall and RAF lakenheath, so I speak to Americans a lot about their finances, and they are usually surprised about how the UK is set up.

Typically we will take out a loan on a property purchase with a minimum 10% deposit or greater. There are some schemes requiring less, but I won't complicate things.

The bank offering the money will typically assess your affordability based on income, outgoings, dependents [children] etc. Typically offering between 3 and 5 times salary- but up to 5.5 for high income, low expenditure.

You can the then choose which type of rate you wish to have.

The choices being:

Firstly you choose the term of the whole mortgage. New borrowers typically 25-35 years, older borrowers will have smaller loans, therefore can pay off quicker etc.

Fixed rate for 2, 3, or 5 years. You will be tied to the lender for this period of time with a financial penalty to leave. At the expiry of the fixed rate term you automatically go on to the lenders standard variable rate. This varies lender to lender. At this point you can either select a new product from the existing lender, transfer [remortgage we call it] to another lender- upto a maximum of 85% of the property value- so if you haven't paid 5% off and put 10% down, you are not going anywhere. Or you can stay on the SVR.

Tracker rate: This tracks the bank of England base rate [currently 0.5%] at an amount above or below the BOEBR dependent of what the product states. This tracks for a period of time, with the same terms as above. Many people here took out trackers for the life of the mortgage about 5 years ago, that were 0.01% below BOEBR, with no minimum, for the life of the mortgage [5 year tie in with early repayment charge] they are currently on historically low mortgage rates on 0.49%! [Many did the opposite and tied in for 5 years at 5.99%- you had to choose, the lucky ones chose right]

CAPPED: a tracker with a maximum it will go to. Again set period, same deals on ERC as before.

Discount: Tied in for a period of time, and a discount from the lenders SVR.

Just incase this is deemed as mortgage advice by the FSA here in the UK

Your home may be repossessed if you do not keep up repayments on your mortgage.

))))

Michael

Michael, that is a good explanation of how things work in the UK. Repayment should be based on an individual's ability actually repay the loan, not a FICO score.

There is a huge crisis looming, but not necessarily for the banks. You see, banks have no "skin in the game". The majority of the home loans are not owned by banks, they are owned by investors all around the world. The bank is a debt collector. More than 60% of all home loans are securitized. That percentage might be higher, I can't recall.

If these loans were assets on a bank's balance sheet, you bet the banks would be in a hurry to get them resold. They're not on the balance sheets - they don't own them. So there is no hurry and in fact, just the opposite. The longer the banks can extend and pretend, they collect late fees. Banks keep late fees. Banks also allege they do drive by appraisals, i.e. $100 a pop times 20,000 foreclosures. Not a bad racket. There are many, many other junk fees the bank adds to the borrower's account and the bank keeps that money.

The supply is incredibly unhealthy. As bad as I hate to say it, homes will have to be bulldozed. There is no other way to help us return to a healthy supply and demand.

The only loss the banks will experience is on the loans they own. And as far as those loans, the banks (surprisingly - NOT) want to work with the homeowner and modify the loan.

There is a Fannie Mae leaseback program. After foreclosure good ol' Fannie has decided to allow the homeowner to stay in the house and rent it. However, there is no option to buy it back in the future.

How were those people able to buy more than they should have? Debt to income ratios checked? Probably, but during the greed frenzie, those numbers were changed before it made it to the underwriters desk.

Who allowed the stupid loan products to begin with? How in the world is a pick a pay loan resulting in negative amortization legal? Time for our lazy ass regulators to get off their asses and take these loan products off the table.

11,000,000 homeowners are underwater. And that's right now. There is no bottom in sight.

Exactly Kay - why would you stay in a home that is severely underwater? A house with a loan of $300,000 and a $150,000 value. It doesn't make good business sense to stay. It will take more than a decade for that house to return to the $300,000 and that's a break even point? No thanks.

Buying real estate is a business deal. Yes, Americans feel a responsibility to make mortgage payments no matter what. I have seen people deplete their retirement, their savings, borrow on credit cards, friends, anything to "save their house and do the right thing." Where does that leave our retiring population? Poor. And without a house because they will eventually lose it to foreclosure.

11,000,000 underwater properties is mind boggling. But just wait, it will get worse. A lot worse.

@Lori, I agree with you about the vacant housing situation. Nothing goes down hill faster than a vacant house. A group I belong to has recommended that the City of Tampa tear down around 500 marginal houses. In truth, they could tear down 5 times that many and it wouldn't make a dent in the problem.
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There is an upside to the mess which won't cure the problem but its showing up in a number of markets. Its called CASH. There is a ton of cash sitting on the sidelines. It doesn't even need to be your own. REAL investors look at the world as an interest rate. Its a mindset. Show them a decent return, no smoke and mirrors, and they're in. @Lori, banks are not quite as reluctant to get rid of these things as you might think. After they have run up the tab with their junk fees some banks are ready to push these things out the door. I will not deal with Bank of America or Chase but other banks are ready to talk turkey. Its very disorganized. Be careful what you offer because they will accept. Forget what is on the books for this stuff. 30¢ on the dollar is about what we have been running.

Thomas

We have 2 major credit referencing agencies here in the UK. Experian, and equifax. Lenders will register credit searches, and credit activity with these agencies, who then create a score. I am not 100% on Equifax, but Experian is out of 1000.

The banks however are now not just looking at the score. They are looking at your account conduct, lifestyle, and overall credit profiling....

These are the major chances in the credit markets here in the UK.

In the past [2006] I could have got you a mortgage, if you HAD UNLIMITED ARREARS ie never paid anything back! lenders would loan to you, and then do exactly what has been described above: package it up, and sell it on!

A lot of the UK banks invested in the USA for these types of loans- they are now owned by the government predominantly)))

Thomas,

That was kind of my point. BTW transunion s the OTHER agency in the US. Are THEY in the UK also? And the new vantage score DOES peak very close to 1000.

Anyway, yeah, network solutions used to be one of several viable SSL C/As. There were two that owned almost 100% of the market. Network solutions was one. The other was thawte. Network solutions bought the other. Sun had a lot of potential that was spread around. NOW, ORACLE bought them. And oracle was NOT the most popular among the E50!!!!!! MYSQL was! Oracle bought MYSQL! Some of these mergers are just BAD!

Steve

One item I haven't seen mentioned here is the SEC. Chris Cox was "running" the SEC. He was a nice guy who happened to be absolutely unqualified. He wasn't supposed to be qualified. He was simply a seat warmer. The investment bankers worked around him like he wasn't even there. They asked the administration to put him in there for exactly that reason. I've never seen any evidence that he understood all that was going on around him. He certainly didn't understand complex economics. He depended on the very people who he was supposed to regulate for any information he thought was needed and they told him exactly what they wanted him to know.

Thomas

UK government website link to our reference agencies.

I work in finance day in day out- I have never heard of call credit! [IE no one uses them that matters]

ico.gov.uk/ for_the_public/ topic_specific_guides/credit.aspx

Had to break it up due to post count

@Rondo, I'm aware of those ads and you're right, they are to good to be true. This is a very large country and the economics are very uneven. I can't imagine handling all the problems from such a distance. I live in a county in Florida that's about the size of Delaware. I'd like to think I'm something of an expert in this area but I find new neighborhoods all the time that I didn't know existed. The difference of a few blocks can make a huge difference in a rental market. Add to that the title problems, which are gigantic and getting worse. They can usually be dealt with but it takes competent legal advice and boots on the ground not to mention endless patience. Being familiar with county procedures and personnel helps but it takes awhile Management is yet another area for scammers. Some of the same dirt bags that were mortgage brokers and appraisers a couple of years ago are now suddenly forming management companies. I have a little check list I've made over the past two years to help me evaluate properties and I still have to go through about 75 to find one worth grabbing.
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We used to have a saying here in Florida, "The best way to make a small fortune in Florida is to come south with a big one." Its even more true now than ever before.

Thomas

Just throwing this out there. I had a very friend whose parents lost the home they were living in over this because they couldn't pay the mortgage, etc. There were lottery tickets piled up and overflowing into the floor in a small trash can beside of their computer desk in their living room. I don't feel sorry for them the least bit.

As to investing in realestate? Most people I have known that have done it say they won't again. People can treat things HARSHLY, and tenants are given a LOT of rights. ALSO, RE brokers are BIG LIARS!!!!!!! If you buy a property, have it assayed by YOU and maybe a non local inspector. There is a LOT of incest in the R/E area! HECK, my old broker was married to a guy that WAS a broker, and is now into appraisal. She apparently knew painters and home inspectors TOO! In short, you may end up buying a DUMP AND, if you don't, it may BECOME one.

Steve

I don't want to get into the "why" too much, as if i'm honest there is an eBook waiting to happen here; but now is the time to be investing in property- in the UK anyway.

Prices are historically low.

Rentals, because it is so hard in general for first time buyers to get on the housing ladder are typically high.

Low price, high rent = highest yields in my lifetime being achieved.

Typically housing and property will increase again overtime. You just need a longer term plan of 5-10 years instead of 6 months like maybe 2003-07

Any UK warriors got £50k to invest, I can show you how to create a net of mortgage interest income of £800-1100 a month! )))

The best NET return I have ever achieve for a client [and that was about 6 months ago now] was 13.4% yield gross, and 11.2% NET.

The market is there now....That's all I am saying.

Interesting, and rather disturbing article in the NYTimes about this exact topic:

How a Financial Pro Lost His House.
Published: November 8, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/bu...his-house.html



Andrew